sk-lore

[craggy smelt]

used to have more water and less sand

[stray fog]

Pharloom had water on both borders🤔

Now only the sea exists

Do volcanoes like that exist irl?

Because I like the pharloom = volcano theory

Im gonna make this a headcanon

Pharloom is an island and a volcano

[muted lantern]

I agree on the volcano bit

a lot of magma in a lot of regions of the kingdom

when hallownest had next to none

at similar depths

[stray fog]

And the altitude of pharloom compared to hallownest

[muted lantern]

hallownest had a mountain too tbf

[stray fog]

And pharloom is much higher than that (assuming that the abyss is flat)

[stray fog]

Also, both, the blasted steps and cindril, have surface access, even though they are at very different altitudes
This can be explained if pharloom is a mountain / volcano

[craggy smelt]

trying to ascertain the relative heights of Pharloom and Hallownest is fraught, because ultimately what we see in-game is an abstraction and not necessarily true to the 'real' scale

just felt like saying that

anyway, if we ever find out what causes volcanic activity in holloworld, I'll be disappointed if its just, like, tectonic plates or something, and not the corpse of some ancient fire god

[craggy smelt]

the water in karak was called a river, despite all the fish and coral and stuff

but I'm down for pharloom being an island volcano, as long as everything is also underground

[stray fog]

Oh

If its a river, then the island stuff is invalid

I still believe in the volcano theory though

[marble oasis]

Probably the same amount of sand

It was just wet at the time

[turbid trench]

im starting sk before hk

is it good

i mean i defeated hornet and other boss in hk

[chilly anvil]

Shaw

[craggy smelt]

you should really play HK first, but they're both very good

[whole holly]

i also believe it, i believe geothermal activity influenced it

[dry jasper]

I know the start of hk is boring but keep pushing it WILL git gud

[whole holly]

should i replay HK, i have played silksong 2 times

Dreamers in HK and Old Hearts in SK, parallel each other for me, at least because there was supposed to be cut organ sleepers in game, both Dreamer and Old Heart group is asleep forever

[heavy gyro]

2 of the old hearts (nyleth and khann) are asleep too

[whole holly]

i kinda wish there will be parallels in next game, i kinda enjoy them

[craggy smelt]

it's neat thinking of what Hallownest's 'old hearts' might be

Vespa? The Lord Fool? Flukemarm?

[whole holly]

i did speculate on this, Monomon, Vespa, Isma do somewhat fit

Flukemarm as well, but idk about Lord Fool

[craggy smelt]

i was mostly joking with Flukemarm

seems like the flukes are just getting started

I don't really see that Monomon and Isma have kingdoms of their own though

I guess Monomon is queen of the jellies

Lord Fool has a following at least

oh, and the old king of Deepnest, whoever that guy was

[glacial warren]

Monomon can’t cut the criteria though.

[whole holly]

wdym, they have to change environment around them

[whole holly]

also sustain it

[whole holly]

Old Hearts don't need Kingdoms, they need environments to be part of

[glacial warren]

Being an Old Heart means being utterly in-tune with one’s world. Notice what Karmelita, Nyleth, and Khann all have in common. They’re either natural denizens of their biome/ecosystem, in the case of Karmelita and Khann, or the progenitor/source of their biome/ecosystem, in the case of Nyleth.

[whole holly]

Lord Fool doesn't sustain Colosseum of Fools

[whole holly]

Monomon is Progenitor of their Biome

[glacial warren]

She isn’t.

[whole holly]

Status of Monarch doesn't really matter, Nyleth is just plant

[foggy stratus]

No. She just made the jellyfish and maybe bubbles.

[glacial warren]

Monomon is an outside invader to the Fog Canyon who artificially, via science, warped that place into what it is.

[whole holly]

she is... Monomon is like Jelly-forms, unique Flora and so on

[whole holly]

that doesn't eradicate possibility of Old Heart

[glacial warren]

She essentially did to the Canyon what the Citadel did to Karak or Verdania. She mutated it into something else.

[foggy stratus]

She took over part of Unn’s land and did crap to it.

Unn should be an old heart not Monomon.

[whole holly]

also when does game state that it is Artificial

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are Mortal Powers, Monomon like Nyleth introduced unique species of flora and fauna

[glacial warren]

Look at the greenery in Canyon. Doesn’t it seem awfully familiar?

[glacial warren]

Yes but Nyleth is a natural part of Shellwood, is the difference. She didn’t change Shellwood, she made Shellwood.

[whole holly]

when does game confirm that Jelly-forms are created artificially

[whole holly]

we don't know that was before Shellwood

[craggy smelt]

what about the big mushroom in Fungal Core, could they maybe count?

[glacial warren]

We do. She’s literally called the seed that sprouted the Shellwood. The entire forest stems from her.

[whole holly]

so? Monomon made Fog Canyon, whether or not something existed before isn't even stated to matter

[whole holly]

possibly

[glacial warren]

Possibly yeah.

[craggy smelt]

nice

[whole holly]

so? it doesn't say what existed before

[glacial warren]

She did not make the Canyon, it predates Monomon. Again, she made unnatural changes and mutations to the place via her weird experiments.

It’s the same thing that happened to the Wormways, come to think of it.

[whole holly]

Fog Canyon's Flora and Fauna are unique to monomon's presence

[whole holly]

where is proof that monomon did experiments?

[glacial warren]

Not entirely. The Jelly-forms are her experiments, who likely got out of the Archive and began spreading once she had to Dream.

[whole holly]

proof?

[glacial warren]

Have you. Not seen the Archive? The entire place is a giant science laboratory.

[foggy stratus]

She has a bunch of charged lumaflies in a tank in her archives. Why would anyone have those except for experiments?

[whole holly]

it is archive, not a laboratory

[whole holly]

for preservation, again, there is no proof she did experiments, that is just a popular theory

[glacial warren]

Still it’s where Monomon created the jelly-forms. The Uoma, Ooma, and Uumuu are artificial beings.

[whole holly]

proof? that is never stated in game

[craggy smelt]

there's computers and bubbling vials and the jellies are unnatural creatures that all think of her
there's powerful "I'm a mad scientist" vibes in there

Hunter thinks they're very strange and unnatural beings, and he's seen everything

[foggy stratus]

The one thing all three jellyfish things have in common(expect for their looks) is their dream nail dialogue is”MONOMON” with Uumuu having some variation.

[glacial warren]

There’s plenty of proof. They don’t exist anywhere beyond the Canyon, and Uumuu’s sole thoughts are of its maker.

[craggy smelt]

too tired, cannot spell

[foggy stratus]

Bit odd, isn’t it?

[whole holly]

i think her role as teacher and archivist makes me think that her species could be from reproduction, and she mostly archives stuff, and creates computers

[whole holly]

Isma's Grove has Flora that only exist in her Grove, that is really bad point

[glacial warren]

Plus this, I feel, is the biggest proof that what Monomon did to the Canyon is artificial in nature. The Hunter, for all his strength, is genuinely unsettled, frightened even, of the Canyon, because his instincts tell him something about that place feels wrong. It’s not supposed to be like that.

[whole holly]

so what? that doesn't prove Jelly-forms are created by experiments

[whole holly]

but it is not confirmed

[glacial warren]

Isma, again, also made artificial flora down in the sewers, though granted she does this in an already artificial landscape, so there’s no real ecosystem to damage down there.

[glacial warren]

It is. Read his Journal entries of the Jelly forms.

[foggy stratus]

Why would any natural being solely think of one being? Also, their dialogue is in all caps. What other thing is in all caps? KingsMolds. What are KingsMolds? Artificial.(lemme fact check real quick.)

[glacial warren]

He warns about how one can lose their senses in the Canyon, about how everything in that place disturbs him.

[glacial warren]

Kingsmoulds are in fact artificial beings. They’re Void constructs, like the Wingmoulds and the Collector.

[whole holly]

Nyleth, Isma and Monomon all introduced Flora, how can we deduct which ones is artificial or natural, and why does it matter

[foggy stratus]

The imprint in PK’s work shop is in all caps actually.

[glacial warren]

In fact you can find the mould that was used to make the Kingsmoulds and the Collector somewhere, implying the Collector is a defective Kingsmould attempt who went mad.

[whole holly]

that's still speculative, Jellyfish in real life have entirely different nervous system so it is not impossible for that to be reflected on jelly-forms in fog canyon

[glacial warren]

Again, the thing that makes an entity qualify as the ‘Heart’ of their land is being a natural inhabitant or, in Nyleth’s case, the progenitor of that ecosystem. You have to be a native to that place, born of it, or in Nyleth’s case, it being born from you.

[whole holly]

that doesn't prove that they are artificial, just foreign to Hunter

[glacial warren]

They’re foreign to everything, based on how he reacts. They feel unnatural, wrong, like they’re not supposed to be there.

[whole holly]

both Monomon's and Isma's case, Flora and Fauna are born from them

[whole holly]

that's because they don't look like bugs, they are unique species, not necessarily artificial

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter has travelled all over Hallownest, and these things confuse him. He has seen damn near everything and yet he doesn’t know what the Uoma’s are.

[glacial warren]

Wrongo again. Only the Fauna in the Canyon were born from Monomon, and again, they’re artificial beings made by science rather than anything naturally spawned.

Like if you look at the Canyon’s greenery, the plant life here all resembles the shrubbery and undergrowth of Greenpath, Unn’s territory, with the exception of the big, white blossoms leaking in from the Queen’s Gardens, as the Canyon also borders that domain.

[whole holly]

there are Flora of Fog Canyon, plus you still haven't proved they are artificial

[foggy stratus]

Those look like bubbles good sir.

[whole holly]

they could be new species born from Monomon, not necessarily because they are artificial

[glacial warren]

Ye those’re just bubbles, not flora. Flora means plants.

[glacial warren]

And again, the bubbles are part of Monomon’s unnatural presence and the mutations she incurred on the ecosystem. They’re not meant to be there.

[whole holly]

bubble's goes from stems

[glacial warren]

Only further proof of the mutation. You can see the original Greenpath shrubbery here.

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter, one of the most knowledgeable people in Hallownest when it comes to creatures, is unnerved by the Jellyfish things and will go out of his way to avoid them because they unnerve him. The only time he does something similar to my memeory is him not eating infection(of infected meat) because it’s either too sweet or tastes off. If they were natural I doubt he’d be so adverse to them.

[whole holly]

that doesn't cancel out new ecosystem that Monomon is progenitor of, Greenpath Flora existing doesn't matter

[whole holly]

that's still speculative, as i said it could be because they are part of new ecosystem that hunter is foreign to

[glacial warren]

This isn’t a new ecosystem. It’s a mutation to an existing one. Again this is no different than what Xylotol did to the Wormways.

[marble oasis]

We see plant like jellies in Pharloom too

[glacial warren]

Scientist moves to a natural location. Sets up shop, begins performing experimentation. Experimentation begins to wildly mutate the surrounding land.

[whole holly]

you haven't proven that, we haven't seen monomon inject flora with anything, Hunter isn't Objective Narrator

[foggy stratus]

The Hunter’s whole deal is going places and hunting what’s there. His entire thing is hunting. Why would he be unnerved by a new ecosystem. I think he’d be overjoyed at new things to hunt, frankly.

[whole holly]

she isn't scientist, she is teacher and archivist

[whole holly]

that's your speculation, though, reason he would be afraid is because they don't look like bugs

[glacial warren]

She is a scientist at heart. Again she has countless records in the Archive of her experiments and she actively studies the Charged Lumaflies.

[foggy stratus]

The shrooms in Fungal Wastes don’t look like bugs. Is he unnerved?

[whole holly]

that is because she is archivist, not a scientist, archivists archive things, even lumaflies

[glacial warren]

The Hunter has seen and slain plenty of things that don’t resemble Bugs at all, I.E. the Myconids in the Fungal Wastes, the Plants of Greenpath, so on and so forth.

[whole holly]

Shrooms aren't new species though

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Shrumal Warrior

Description:
Fungal creature that attacks intruders to protect its young.

Hunter's notes:
Something queer in the air has caused these mushrooms to grow hearts, minds, and even faces! This means they now fear for their lives, like all other living creatures.

Dream Nail:
(Without Spore Shroom)
Nyush oola mumu? Shruba dungo ola, ola mu... gungi?
...Mushi mungi ooalala...
...Nyanmul....Gassa ola...

(With Spore Shroom)
...Stay back...
...Must protect... Must kill...
...Our mind as one...

@lexmolten used /journal name: Shrumal Warrior

[whole holly]

they aren't new species though, hunter is aware of their species very well, unlike Jelly-forms of Fog Canyon

reason he would be vary of Jelly-forms is because they don't resemble existing species he is aware of, not because they are artifical

[glacial warren]

The Jelly-forms unnerve him so much because, again, something to him speaks of them being unnatural. He even warns that you shouldn’t trust the Jellies or get close to them because they feel so wrong to his instincts.

[foggy stratus]

His notes indicate that, at least for Shroomal Orges and Warriors, they’re fairly new to him since he isn’t sure if Orges are mushrooms or beasts.

[whole holly]

that doesn't mean they are artificial, they share traits with Monomon who is also Jelly-like

[glacial warren]

Everything about them disturbs the Hunter, even to the extent of the Canyon itself feeling off to him, because, again, Monomon changed an existing ecosystem and mutated it.

The space was originally part of Unn’s turf, with some slivers of the White Lady’s influence bleeding in from where it borders her Gardens.

Now that Monomon’s artificial mutations have spiraled out of control, most other living things avoid the place like the plague.

[whole holly]

we still don't know of any recorded mutations or experiments, none of them are stated in game and hunter's feelings aren't proof of that, again Shrumal Ogres is something he is fairly unknowledgeable about, unlike Jelly-forms which he knows nothing about

[whole holly]

where is it stated that monomon changed ecosystem or mutated it? in those exact words

[glacial warren]

Look at those bubble trees and the bubbles themselves, how they clash with the natural Greenpath shrubbery. It’s violently clear this place has been changed beyond its original design.

[whole holly]

or just new species introduced, nothing about it is violent

[glacial warren]

In fact, most of the flora here is still Greenpath in design, further proof of this having originally been part of Unn’s mossy domain.

[whole holly]

plus you proved you don't have evidence of your statements

[glacial warren]

How did I disprove myself? I haven’t said anything contradictory or that would debunk my own statements.

[whole holly]

just because it was unn's domain in past doesn't eradicate possibility of new ecosystem having old heart

[foggy stratus]

Point out where they did that.

[whole holly]

you couldn't answer question: "where is it stated that monomon changed ecosystem or mutated it? in those exact words" so you said unrelated things

[glacial warren]

But again, this is still very clearly Unn’s ecosystem. It’s just been mutated and altered.

[whole holly]

they couldn't answer question: "where is it stated that monomon changed ecosystem or mutated it? in those exact words" so they said unrelated things : "Look at those bubble trees and the bubbles themselves, how they clash with the natural Greenpath shrubbery. It’s violently clear this place has been changed beyond its original design."

[glacial warren]

It’s stated by simply looking at the Canyon itself, looking at the Hunter’s Journal notes about the Jellies. These pieces of environmental storytelling tells us what happened here.

[whole holly]

no proof on mutation anywhere? mutation isn't stated, they could be new species altogether rather than mutations of old species, you still have no proof they were mutated

[whole holly]

none of those suggest experimentation or mutation, they just suggest new species taking place both flora and fauna

[whole holly]

you disproved yourself here as well

[glacial warren]

Again they very clearly imply what happened to the Canyon isn’t natural.

[whole holly]

where? Hunter isn't necessarily reliable narrator

[glacial warren]

Everything there save for Unn’s lingering bushes and moss and the White Lady’s flowers at the edges is unnatural and isn’t supposed to be there.

[whole holly]

wdym isn't supposed to be there? "supposed to be there" is weird notion, new species are introduced that Monomon is part of

[whole holly]

whether they are "invasive" or "unnatural" doesn't matter

[whole holly]

New Ecosystem creates possibly for Heart to take place and Moss Druid suggests it, also Ecosystems can overlap often, Mosslands and Shellwood do overlap

[finite wind]

Can someone explain both of these needolin dialogues

[foggy stratus]

Just because they didn’t have explicit written proof doesn’t mean they don’t have proof at all. There are other kinds of proof, ya know.

[marble oasis]

What?

[finite wind]

What

[foggy stratus]

Please translate to English please?

[finite wind]

They are on the wiki

But idk how to search for them lol

No way

The AI got it

"Dear Sisters..."
"Feared by all..."
"Revered by all..."
"Must we hide?

This is for the second ss

[foggy stratus]

If I have my knowledge straight(which isn’t likely for Silksong lore) that’s a Pinstress.

[finite wind]

Whaat

[foggy stratus]

Her “sisters” would be other Pinstresses.

[whole holly]

proof you know proves something, all they have speculation

[finite wind]

But that doesn't look like a pinstress

I thought it was some weird stilkin

Also yeah, it's pretty obvious, how did I not notice

[foggy stratus]

They’re “speculating” based off the Hunter’s dialogue and the environment. Where is it expressly said that the jelly fishes are natural? Oh right, it also isn’t. You’re speculating they’re natural.

[marble oasis]

It’s hard to see, but she has a striped carapace under the bileweed like the Seamstress and Pinstress, whereas the Stilkin have fully black bodies

She’s also sitting in the tattered remains of a Pinstress balloon tent

[foggy stratus]

Your assumption doesn’t have much beyond “they’re there and Monomon is also there”.

[whole holly]

i am not claiming that though, i am implying or suggesting alternative possibilities, but they are asserting it without proper basis...

[finite wind]

Damn, I got there yesterday and I'm not coming back

[foggy stratus]

If I’m being fully honest you don’t seem to actually back a lot of what you say in evidence beyond one or two things. I know I also don’t but I’m much less well versed in Silksong lore.

[finite wind]

..None beyond... ...All your will... ...All your wishes... ...All ours...

This is the dialogue for the first ss

[whole holly]

strawman argument

[finite wind]

Also, the first time you see those bugs a creepy sound effect plays

Nice detail which I don't think is anywhere else on the game

[whole holly]

another strawman...

[foggy stratus]

Ok then what is your evidence for them being natural?

[finite wind]

Thanks

I see the caparace now

[finite wind]

I don't think there's any dialogue for using the blue tool with the other pinstresses right

[whole holly]

i only suggested it, not outright claimed it, it was counterproposal which doesn't require proof

[finite wind]

The maggot thing

[marble oasis]

The wreath? No

[finite wind]

What about this?

[foggy stratus]

Alright then well could you now provide some proof for your statement at least so I know why you feel this way?

[marble oasis]

These are the thoughts of the Stilkin, who are stringing those bugs up to drain them of their Soul

[foggy stratus]

If not proof then your reasoning.

[finite wind]

Do you have a SS of the bugs that show when you needolin?

[marble oasis]

No

[finite wind]

And what does "none beyond" mean?

[whole holly]

that Monomon is Old Heart? alright, Old Hearts/Powerful Mortals usually change environment around them, they have to be connected to their environment

[marble oasis]

But because I’m so nice I went and found this for you

Look at them a-singing

It would be cute if not for the ritual sacrifice

[foggy stratus]

No, I meant on why you think that the jellyfishes are natural.

[finite wind]

Thanks lol

That's my thing

When I looked at them, they didn't look like stilkin

[marble oasis]

Idk

Maybe referring to the Citadel?

[marble oasis]

Their faces are upturned

[finite wind]

They look like the hanging bugs but with backpacks or sth

[marble oasis]

The pointy noses are facing up

[finite wind]

Oh those are their noses?

[whole holly]

i don't outright believe it, i only counterproposed it, it wasn't a claim, more like alternative possibility that doesn't need proof

[finite wind]

Does the tall stilkin have a nose like that?

Wait what

It does

[finite wind]

I thought his helmet was like a knight shape

But that's a nose

https://tenor.com/view/indie-cross-shovel-knight-shaking-my-head-its-peak-we-cannot-take-that-risk-gif-9039411135177355747

Like this

[foggy stratus]

So if you don’t outright believe it why would you argue for it? And why claim that the other side has no basis, when there is plenty of basis for it.

[marble oasis]

I see

[finite wind]

He doesn't stay quiet so much

So it's hard to see

[marble oasis]

Easier to see on the normal ones

[finite wind]

Yeah

Maybe none beyond refers to no bug should pass beyond that place

But anyways thanks for the help

It was helpful

[marble oasis]

No worries

[whole holly]

because it was counterproposal, not argument, other person's claim did have some basis but not not concrete evidence, it was speculation/theory as counterargument to my claim that Monomon is potential Old Heart, i only concede to concrete proof and evidence.

[foggy stratus]

Not everything will have concrete proof because certain things just won’t be outright stated. And when you seemingly ignore or discredit the actual evidence the other side puts forward it makes it out that you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing instead of just proposing a counter point. And now you’re saying it had some basis? Earlier you said it didn’t have proper basis.

[whole holly]

it had some basis but it is mostly suggested and implied, but not proven, way he stated them made it seem like it was proven fact, i also provided counterclaims to his reasoning, i didn't ignore or discredit it, i just pointed out Monomon isn't a scientist and Hunter isn't Objective Narrator, which indeed does debase his argument

[marble oasis]

Monomon isn’t a scientist?

[whole holly]

they are stated to be Archivist or Teacher

[whole holly]

their place is Teacher's Archives

[amber root]

like subnautica?

[marble oasis]

Wanderer’s Journal says that she was doing research in there

As much as I dislike WJ as a source

[whole holly]

i do research for presentations even though i am student and not a scientist, she most likely was doing research as teacher

[whole holly]

nothing suggest researching is her profession, it is quite literally stated to be a teacher

[foggy stratus]

Who was she teaching?

[marble oasis]

If she was merely doing secondary research where are all the books

[whole holly]

does it matter, she is said to be one

[marble oasis]

She collates knowledge there true

[whole holly]

i never specified secondary research, student can do non-secondary research, but that doesn't make them professional researcher or scientist, it is even bigger stretch to say she mutated or experimented on Flora and Fauna of Fog Canyon

[marble oasis]

Conducting primary research does make you a scientist

To gather and analyse evidence to answer a certain question

[whole holly]

conducting primary research alone doesn’t automatically make you a scientist, because the title also depends on recognized credentials, peer‑reviewed validation, and integration into the broader scientific community.

[marble oasis]

There is no broader scientific community man this is bugs

[whole holly]

so? definition still applies, if anything, soul sanctum could be scientific community

[foggy stratus]

Magic science. They really only work with soul, something Monomon doesn’t seem to do much with.

[whole holly]

okay? monomon still isn't a scientist

[finite wind]

I don't think that's part of the definition of a scientist

Nothing from Google research mentions thay

I think people call someone a scientist on a general basis if they can live off that

[whole holly]

being scientist mandates more than primary research, and it needs to be profession as well

[foggy stratus]

“An expert in or student of one or more of the natural or physical sciences” That’s the definition I found.

[finite wind]

I think monomom is a professional

She dedicated her life to research

I think every bug in hallownest would call her that

[whole holly]

professional scientist? no she is stated to teaching and archiving

[finite wind]

You can be both...

[whole holly]

they literally call her teacher

[foggy stratus]

Teachers can be scientists. Nothing says she isn’t a scientist.

[whole holly]

but she isn't? though she researched but that's not enough to say she is scientist

[finite wind]

Why she isn't

[whole holly]

nothing says she is scientist

[finite wind]

Nothing says directly that the knight is the PK's son

But we know it is

[whole holly]

because we have evidence for that? what is evidence of her being scientist?

a scientist is someone who systematically investigates natural, social, or formal phenomena using empirical methods—forming hypotheses, gathering and analyzing data through observation or experimentation, and drawing conclusions that can be tested and replicated. This practice is typically grounded in rigorous methodology, peer review, and adherence to ethical standards, and it often occurs within an academic or research institution, though independent researchers can also be considered scientists if they meet these criteria.

[whole holly]

Vespa literally stated that Pale Beings bear a blame for Knight's nature

[whole holly]

this is all-encompassing and accurate definition

merely being called a teacher, possessing personal archives, and having conducted some research doesn’t automatically qualify someone as a scientist. To be considered a scientist, the person must engage in systematic, methodologically rigorous investigation aimed at generating testable knowledge, and ideally have that work validated through peer review or recognized scholarly channels. Without evidence of such disciplined, reproducible research practices and scholarly acknowledgment, the label “scientist” remains uncertain. So, based solely on those three attributes, we can’t definitively call the person a scientist.

[marble oasis]

Terrible example for this 😭

[marble oasis]

That doesn’t mean offspring to be fair

However Hornet is our sibling and we know her father is Pale King

[whole holly]

based on contextual evidence it would indicate that, with context being entirety of the game

[marble oasis]

Fratute said stated directly

Contextual evidence doesn’t mean shit

[foggy stratus]

Do we see the full process of TK’s birth and creation? Then how do we know for sure TK is PK’s kid(note I do know for a fact TK is the PK’s kid you don need to cite the reasons it is)

[whole holly]

that is very pedantic, disingenuous, bad faith argument

[amber flare]

I dont think team cherry wanted to include…that… in their game

[marble oasis]

Hornet calls the Vessels her siblings
Herrah is not the Vessels’ mother
Ergo the Pale King must be their father
QED

[whole holly]

i mean we don't have equal contextual and empirical evidence for monomon being scientist argument as vessels being children of PK and WL

[marble oasis]

Also the whole Soul of Wyrm Soul of Root thing

Charge in progeny cursed

Etc

Point being that this is at least explicitly stated and was a terrible example for you to pick

I still believe Monomon is a scientist though

[whole holly]

i guess there are no more opposing counterarguments and topic has changed?

[marble oasis]

However I think the Fog Canyon flora are simply introduced

[whole holly]

fun headcannon for sure

[marble oasis]

Invasive species but naturally occurring otherwise

[marble oasis]

I’m going to touch you

You think she just studied the Vessel plan for fun?

[whole holly]

you aren't going to move inch

[whole holly]

i need source for that

[marble oasis]

Like PK gave her all his research documents and just said have at it you archivist you

[marble oasis]

The Archives tablets talking about Vessels

[whole holly]

she literally archives information, what else is there?

[marble oasis]

PK never made ANY of it public

[whole holly]

i guess Teacher's Archive is Private Archive?

assuming that Monomon is Private Citizen

[whole holly]

that's not contradictory whatsoever

[marble oasis]

Even if it was for Monomon’s eyes only why would he let her in on his plans, especially when they were still being performed

Unless she was working on it with him

[whole holly]

because she was Dreamer

[whole holly]

she was as a Dreamer, i guess

[whole holly]

maybe Pale King wanted Dreamers to know what they were getting into, it seems that all dreamers have some information

[marble oasis]

lurien lowkey dgaf he was doing whatever his glorious king told him to

[glacial warren]

Ye Lurien mostly acted on his loyalty to the King.

[glacial warren]

Ye it is implied Monomon helped the King in his Vessel plan using what her research and experiments were able to find. Judging by the Lore Tablets found in the Archive, she did extensive research on Infected Bugs, trying to help the King find a means of dealing with the origin of the plague.

[whole holly]

its seems, Dreamers, Weavers generally took part in Vessel Project

[foggy stratus]

Weavers?

[whole holly]

We kind of see seals, like Seal of Binding is implied to have purpose Sealing Radiance, also Bindings on Hollow Knight resembling Bindings of First Sinner

mostly implications

[foggy stratus]

Seal of Binding is more likely to keep THK safe or any intruders out. I don’t know what would indicate the Seal of Binding is for Radiance. Also the Vessel Project(from my understanding at least) mostly referred to the Vessels themselves, not the seals used in THK.

[whole holly]

if it keeps THK safe then it plays part in keeping radiance sealed

[foggy stratus]

Not really. It itself doesn’t do anything besides keep THK safe. Without it nothing would really change about the actually sealing of the Radiance.

[whole holly]

keeping THK safe is huge part of sealing radiance

[foggy stratus]

The safe guards aren’t needed to seal the Radiance. Maybe to keep THK safe after the sealing, but they don’t aid the process from what we know.

[whole holly]

Seals and Bindings drain THK and keep him intact, which plays part in sealing of radiance, regardless of whether it is needed

[foggy stratus]

How do they drain it? When is that said or even really implied? Why would THK need to be drained at all?

[whole holly]

hornet says: The path is opened. One way or another an end awaits inside.

I won't be joining you in this. That space is built to sustain your likes. Its bindings would drain me were I to join.
Don't be surprised. I'll not risk my own life in your attempt, though if the moment presents I'll aid as I'm able.

[random harbor]

Hornet - General - Black Egg Temple Opened

The path is opened. One way or another an end awaits inside.
I won't be joining you in this. That space is built to sustain your likes. Its bindings would drain me were I to join.
Don't be surprised. I'll not risk my own life in your attempt, though if the moment presents I'll aid as I'm able.

@lexmolten used /npcs wanderers name: Hornet category: General dialogue: Black Egg Temple Opened

[foggy stratus]

“That place is built to sustain your likes.”

“Its bindings would drain me if I were to join.”

[whole holly]

okay, you don't need to obsess over minor wording to win argument in bad faith

[foggy stratus]

?

It’s not minor? It’s the reason she isn’t joining the fight?

And it says it’s built to sustain “your likes” aka vessels.

[whole holly]

i misworded, so? weavers still played part of sealing Radiance in THK

[whole holly]

which i also stated

[foggy stratus]

Either I skimmed over that part or you forgot to add it and edited in after the initial post.

[whole holly]

also Hollow Knight is drained of power compared to Pure Vessel

[foggy stratus]

Not drained, it’s just weaker.

If anything it’s the opposite of drained.

[whole holly]

i edited seals into seals and bindings, i did originally said sustained

[whole holly]

it can be both

[whole holly]

what makes it opposite of drained?

[foggy stratus]

Filled. It’s full of infection of Moth(Radiance).

[whole holly]

containing radiance doesn't make it filled, assuming your definition of filled is specifically opposite of draining nature of bindings

[foggy stratus]

Even so, nothing indicates it’s drained of anything.

[whole holly]

it is drained of it's combat capabilities, general power, compared to Pure Vessel

also that's not relevant to my original argument of Weavers playing part in Sealing Radiance

[foggy stratus]

That’s more so because it’s weakened from the Radiance trying to break out. It’s missing its arm and is literally dripping infection.

[whole holly]

like i said, that's not relevant to my original argument of Weavers playing part in Sustaining Hollow Knight by Extension Radiance's Seal

[foggy stratus]

Okay so how are they playing a part?

[whole holly]

Bindings, Seals like i already stated

[foggy stratus]

Which as I said aren’t linked to the actual sealing process. They aid in keeping it sealed, but not in the initial sealing.

[foggy stratus]

?

[whole holly]

that's still playing part

[foggy stratus]

In keeping it sealed, not in sealing it.

[blissful harbor]

i mean it’s possible the bindings do literally drain it
it noticeably doesn’t use any soul spells, but that could also just be from losing its casting arm

[whole holly]

yeah, that's what playing a part means

[whole holly]

thank you

[foggy stratus]

Difference between sealing and keeping sealed.

[whole holly]

playing a part is deliberately non-specific enough to potentially mean either of those

[whole holly]

some attacks THK uses are analogous of Pure Vessel's Spells

[whole holly]

like Soul Pillars of Pure Vessel get replaced by THK's Flame Pillars(which are names wiki calls them)

peace is so refreshing

[limpid summit]

Infection is what diminishes PV

Our soul usage isn’t affected by the black egg so why would PV’s be

What would be the point of training PV to fight and use giant soul spells if the bindings were going to limit it like that anyway

[whole holly]

to train it to peak, but purpose of training isn't even clear, what was it in your opinion

[ornate pollen]

just killed grandmother silk can anyone explain the weaver queen ending ?

[blissful harbor]

hornet binds GMS, but her identity is overridden/overtaken by her

[lost forum]

Hornet binds Grandmother Silks power and in the process becomes the "Weaver queen", spreading silk across all of Pharloom

[lavish turtle]

just like first game

[limpid summit]

An extra helpful safeguard

Imagine you somehow get past WK Uumuu etc and the entirety of Hallownest’s forces

[whole holly]

against?

[limpid summit]

If PV is broken Rad escapes

It’s chained up because it contains the infection

Chains are broken but now you still have to fight PV

Basically the strongest non HB

Every step of the vessel project was an additional protection

[whole holly]

why do you propose Pure Vessel isn't being drained by Bindings and became Weaker by other means

[limpid summit]

Imagine carrying a bomb inside you

Hornet says the bindings would drain her (not us or PV) and our soul capabilities are completely unaffected

If chains were broken and uninfected PV was freed they would be as strong as they are in Godhome

[whole holly]

tbh reason Knight isn't affected is because of gameplay, THK being different from PV even though THK tries perform same attack as PV makes me think THK was indeed drained

[limpid summit]

Which one

The swords?

I mean infection messes with soul we see that with the sanctum orbs

[plain walrus]

Why hk lore in #sk-lore 😭

[limpid summit]

Why would bindings exist to specifically weaken the person who needs to be strong in order to protect itself

[solar gale]

We love hk

[plain walrus]

^Everyone on the server lol

[whole holly]

even with Sanctum Bugs, they still use Soul no, we don't see that at all with THK

[whole holly]

to drain their mind/state

[limpid summit]

What

PK didn’t expect THK to actually be infected

[whole holly]

Bindings could also be to weaken Radiance's Influence, but implication is that THK can't cast Spells because of them

[limpid summit]

Then why would anyone teach it those spells

[whole holly]

maybe to train THK to peak form, and binding weren't intended to drain him but radiance, who knows, they clearly aren't made with draining hornet in mind

[limpid summit]

They were made to drain the vitality of any living being who wandered into the chamber

Because there wasn’t supposed to be anyone there

Why would bindings be made to place PV in a position of weakness when the kingdom hinges on PV’s ability to handle a threat that would make it past everything else the kingdom throws at it

Doesn’t make much sense

[whole holly]

now imagine how would it work on regular bugs but not THK, how would bindings discriminate?

[limpid summit]

Vessels aren’t alive

[whole holly]

i mean it doesn't really matter why? fact it Pure Vessel has no problem casting spells and THK does, Infection doesn't make sense to be doing that solely, his Soul would not deplete from it

[limpid summit]

Infection isn’t depleting its soul it is ravaging its body and mind

[whole holly]

they are just void infused live things, because youe notion is false, Shadow Creepers, Shadow Chargers are life-forms and so are Vessels

[limpid summit]

I don’t think it has the focus to do rune rage

[whole holly]

but THK can't cast spells

[limpid summit]

Dawg

[whole holly]

i mean pillar attack

[limpid summit]

I won't be joining you in this. That space is built to sustain your likes. Its bindings would drain me were I to join.

It’s literally built to sustain PV

[limpid summit]

Because it is infected and weakened

[whole holly]

we are already past that but how would it discriminate? isn't it possibly that draining it's body and mind would be sustaining vessel?

[whole holly]

Soul Master is infected but casts spells

[limpid summit]

What is “draining its thoughts”

[whole holly]

draining THK and life-force(soul) therefore by extension draining mind and thought

[limpid summit]

That doesn’t make any sense

Assumedly PV would be hollow without that

[whole holly]

Bindings could be reinforcement of Vessels purity

[limpid summit]

I think that’s fanon

[whole holly]

okay that doesn't even matter, it doesn't matter whether or not THK is being drained by Bindings

[limpid summit]

The bindings are just meant to exhaust living things so an invader wouldn’t have the power to destroy PV

[whole holly]

that doesn't matter to lore

[limpid summit]

They don’t even kill Hornet

[whole holly]

okay, i have one question, why don't you consider Vessels living things

[whole holly]

Hornet is a demigod

[limpid summit]

They are reanimated corpses

The children of PK were born, died, and began

[whole holly]

that could be a metaphor, what killed them? Void? if so Shadow Creepers, Chargers, Gloomsacs, Gargantuan Glooms are alive, why wouldn't vessels be?

because Vessels doing what Alive Bugs can do and more proves they are alive, they have some autonomy, will, mind and so on

[limpid summit]

They’re living bugs that grew up in the environment and have evolutionary advantages

Gargant glooms for example just have the void as something in their stomach

It didn’t seep into their eggs and animate their shells like vessels

They aren’t imprinted void beings

[whole holly]

i don't think shells of vessels ever really died, they were infused with void, but they never effectively ceased existence, they are in perpetual statis of not needing sustenance and never growing up naturally

[whole holly]

if they lay eggs, then void would seep into their eggs, if void is in their shells then void is animating their shells

[limpid summit]

Void isn’t animating their shells

Dinosaurs ate rocks to help with digestion they weren’t animated by rocks

The conception of vessels is made fairly distinct from like shadow creepers

Shadow chargers idk

[whole holly]

how so? they are both born in abyss? they both contain void? they are both alive in equal sense

[limpid summit]

Shadow creepers aren’t born in void

[whole holly]

that's not accurate analogy

[whole holly]

they are both born in abyss, don't be pedantic

[limpid summit]

There’s a pretty big difference thank you for changing the wording

[whole holly]

i mean point is that they are both born in same environment

[limpid summit]

These things are probably not actually voided

Shadow chargers bleed void but maybe they have some in them like gargant glooms

Vessel conception is unique

[whole holly]

Vessels would still be alive in every sense, they retain everything that pale fetuses had, including life

[limpid summit]

In what sense

They don’t eat sleep smell

WL says they died I don’t think that’s entirely a metaphor in the way you think it is

[whole holly]

they don't need sleep, or to smell

[whole holly]

White lady somewhat speaks in lot of metaphors, but they are permanently underdeveloped, but not dead

[foggy stratus]

They’re undead creatures.

[whole holly]

they meet definition of alive

[foggy stratus]

They died and got reanimated by the Void so I guess?

[whole holly]

alive

adjective
(of a person, animal, or plant) living, not dead.
continuing in existence or use.
alert and active; animated.
having interest and meaning.
aware of and interested in; responsive to.

[whole holly]

reanimation makes them alive, AppleEgg says they aren't alive

[whole holly]

they meet most of those definitions

[limpid summit]

That’s a fallacy

When people ask are vessels alive I don’t think they mean “alert and active”

[whole holly]

what is fallacy in this case?

[foggy stratus]

(I don’t really understand why you always use real world definitions for a bug game where you end up fighting a god most of the time but go off I guess)

[limpid summit]

They are not living, as they are dead

So they are not alive

[foggy stratus]

I guess more accurately their corpses are being puppeted by the Void within them.

[edgy nebula]

yet another hk discussion in sk lore

[foggy stratus]

Why is so much HK stuff being discussed in here?

[foggy stratus]

Exactly, man.

[whole holly]

is there HK-specific definition i can use? why don't you show me HK Dictionary? come on stop pretending Words don't have universal meaning, Team Cherry uses English language in game

[whole holly]

continuation of previous HK discussion

[edgy nebula]

we've run dry on silksong lore

[whole holly]

define not alive, they don't meet definition of not alive in any definition i provided

[foggy stratus]

The word God in HK is deferent definition than God in our world. So while yes many words can be carried over, pretending all words have universal meaning isn’t accurate for HK or Silksong. Also, it’s an undead creature. We don’t have undead creatures in our world. Are zombies living creatures to you?

[whole holly]

so void imprinted on traits of fetus and replicated them and they still are same, only "hollow" with inheriting traits of void, but nothing about them screams dead

[limpid summit]

Well it’s a void being

Would you call Collector alive

[edgy nebula]

what counts as alive in this context

a living feeling being? if so yeah

[foggy stratus]

They seemingly don’t eat, talk or breathe since I doubt the black egg has any ventilation or food stores for THK.

[edgy nebula]

i mean yeah they definitely dont talk

breathing is kind of ambiguous

[limpid summit]

Are Wingmoulds alive?

[whole holly]

Gods are Gods, they are Higher Beings, i saw that terms used to describe mythological gods outside of HK discussions so

[foggy stratus]

Is Gruz Mother a God to you?

[limpid summit]

Void itself is not alive

[foggy stratus]

It’s called a God by the GodSeekers so I guess it must be

[whole holly]

i mean neither do tardigrades when hibernating but they are living species

[edgy nebula]

they take damage from spore attacks and inside thk you see what looks to be some type of void-like veins

so they might have lungs

[limpid summit]

I don’t think THK has lungs

[whole holly]

Godseeker's definition is relative and Humans have worshipped mortals as gods so try again

[limpid summit]

Void might have replicated the internal organs of the children seeing as TK stumbles over when it’s at 1 HP

But it’s not as if that actually has any bearing on its combat ability

[edgy nebula]

true

[limpid summit]

Void as a substance is not inherently alive, so I don’t see the imprints of deceased living individuals on Void as living beings

[whole holly]

i mean define alive, because Void Tendrils move on their own, they are alert and active; animated.

[foggy stratus]

So what if we have worshipped some dude who claimed to be a god? God in HK isn’t really the same definition as God in our world. It’s typically agreed to mean large or strong being, not on divine level like Higher Beings tho.

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the imprints of Abyss given form are “alive” in any useful sense of the definition

[edgy nebula]

god is godseeker using a unique definition

[whole holly]

bugs don't really have lungs, but THK game uses word Internal Fluid

[limpid summit]

But I’m interested to see where you’re going with this

[ornate pollen]

silk to control them ?

[whole holly]

can you define alive? because you assert they aren't alive but can't actually provide definition

[foggy stratus]

Could you please stop using definitions as pillars of your arguments because they aren’t in game content.

[edgy nebula]

what's this argument even about btw

[foggy stratus]

Trying to apply real world definitions to a fantasy world don’t really work.

[whole holly]

they are still equivalent enough, that it translates, based on Mortal being worshiped as God irl and Gruzmother not being real gods but being perceived as such

[whole holly]

if vessels are alive

[edgy nebula]

hornet certainly thinks so

[limpid summit]

I think Hornet’s speaking more in terms of a fulfilled experience in that sense

She’s not saying you’re flesh and blood like me

To Lace

[limpid summit]

Well we can use the biological definitions of life if you want

Metabolism, growth, response to stimuli, cellular organization etc

Cells exist in the HK verse

I doubt Void has them though

[spark valve]

Definitely something that makes sense to do in a fantasy setting

[limpid summit]

[whole holly]

they translate, especially in this case, alive and dead are definitely universal that TC wouldn't redefine, also Soul Tyrant says Soul animates bodies and Vessels are capable of holding soul and being animated by them

[limpid summit]

So are soul totems

Featherless biped ahh argument

Vessels aren’t animated by Soul

[whole holly]

Soul Totems aren't animated by Soul

[limpid summit]

True

[foggy stratus]

They aren’t animated by soul they’re animated by Void.

[whole holly]

wdym? i consider Soul Spells as additional animations

[whole holly]

they aren't mutually exclusive

[foggy stratus]

TK can walk around as much as it wants without a drop of soul in its soul bar.

[edgy nebula]

id consider vessels to be alive personally, but i think this debate is a bit worthless

[foggy stratus]

It doesn’t need soul to live like other things do.

[limpid summit]

Observed... Small. Dull. No Soul.

[spark valve]

Is the argument that only things that are animated by soul are alive

[whole holly]

so? it can be animated by Soul as well, animation can also be expressed by Spells

[edgy nebula]

just if vessels are alive or not

nika brought up soul i think

[limpid summit]

Spells it can use with the soul of others?

[whole holly]

Vessel's are alive, because IRL definition of alive is universal enough to apply to HK, thus confirm Vessels as alive

[foggy stratus]

I’m done here. I’m not dealing with Mr. Definitions and whatever else they have anymore.

[spark valve]

The answer is yes in most relevant senses

[limpid summit]

What irl definition of alice are you using

[whole holly]

you consecutively choose to interact with me when opportunity comes up

[limpid summit]

I mean if this is for the purpose of black egg binding discussion then like

[whole holly]

alive

adjective
(of a person, animal, or plant) living, not dead.
continuing in existence or use.
alert and active; animated.

[whole holly]

it isn't, this is separate discussion

[edgy nebula]

technically the shells the vessels use are dead children and void isnt necessarily alive? 🤷 as people though vessels are very much alive, they have wills, wants, etc

[whole holly]

exactly

[limpid summit]

Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same mistake.

Platitudes, spider? From you? Don't be gross.

[whole holly]

doesn't that prove that Vessels and Silk-spun beings are indeed alive

[limpid summit]

Well Lace calls Hornet out for saying useless platitudes so I’m not really sure

[whole holly]

most sane person

[limpid summit]

That’s like devotion or destruction

[whole holly]

Lace can be more subjective as she doesn't have enough experience, hornet would be more accurate and reliable in this case, though

actually opposing side has provided no counterargument on why Vessels are dead? how does void being contain within their shells makes them dead?

[limpid summit]

Because Void killed them

They are undeniably dead in a biological sense but as far as the game goes it doesn’t really matter

[whole holly]

prove that void killing them producing vessels that today have self-agency and will makes them dead

[edgy nebula]

the body they inhabit technically isnt alive and idrk if the void inside them can be considered really alive either

[limpid summit]

“Void being contained within their shells” it’s not like the gargant glooms lmao

[whole holly]

HK doesn't have biological system

[edgy nebula]

son 💔

[near jasper]

Is a shade alive

[limpid summit]

Folk 💔

[spark valve]

sort of

[limpid summit]

You are asking for proof that killing something means it is dead

[whole holly]

Void-infused fetuses never really died, their internal fluids got replaced by void, but they never stopped being "alive" in broad sense

[edgy nebula]

honestly why do vessels become what they are, is it cause of the pale corpses they inhabit? im curious actually

[limpid summit]

As in like instead of becoming something like Collector or in the sense of the shells being destroyed

[spark valve]

soul suppresses void, it seems like similar mechanisms behind kingsmoulds

[limpid summit]

Latter is likely the strength of the pale shell

Yes as Tammo said

[edgy nebula]

like what's the difference between them and just a body stuffed with void, why do they get shades and allat

[whole holly]

i mean how can dead vessel have will? then you are going to have to explain that? and if they have will how are they killed?

[edgy nebula]

ic

but doesnt void also suppress soul in silksong

[near jasper]

They have will because they have a consciousness but their body is dead

[spark valve]

the shades are a product of prolonged exposure which usually wouldn't happen to a normal bug which volatile void would just rip apart and move on

[spark valve]

it's about quantities, either can win out depending on circumstance

[edgy nebula]

i see

[spark valve]

like how the lighthouse suppresses it but the lumafly lantern doesn't

[edgy nebula]

so the corpses being pale/having soul in them and the time spent in the abyss made them that way?

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

ic

[limpid summit]

As far as void animating the corpses

[edgy nebula]

cool, thanks alot

[whole holly]

how can dead body sustain consciousness? because all i see that soul of body only got replaced by void and i don't see a corpse but living thing that can breath based on fact that they are damaged by mushroom spores

[spark valve]

it's like collector if collector couldn't leave the body of the love key bug

[limpid summit]

What mushroom spots

Spores

Fungified husks?

Degenerative infected gas blown out at you seems pretty bad even if you couldn’t breathe

[near jasper]

Brother the entire haunting is dead bodies containing consciousness

[whole holly]

how would it be toxic to corpse

[edgy nebula]

probably damages the shell

in hindsight idk if there are any uninfected spore clouds

[whole holly]

Haunting and Infection is different because causes for both of them are Higher Beings

[near jasper]

Twelth architect

[whole holly]

but Vessels seem to be alive in every way that matters except depending on food i guess

[edgy nebula]

theyre alive in every way that matters except physically

[whole holly]

physiologically, but yes

okay if that's case then Joni's Blessing replacing Vessels Internal Fluid's with Lifeblood should make them alive based on AppleEgg's logical reasoning

[near jasper]

I mean ig

Lifeblood is just litterally life tho

Most things are alive when you give it to them

[whole holly]

Okay but AppleEgg’s reasoning is quite Absurd though

Question: what is something that you know about Steel Clan that you believe in your heart is true but isn’t confirmed yet?

[foggy stratus]

They feast upon souls. I refuse to elaborate further.

[whole holly]

Interesting

For sure, this isn’t judgement space

[edgy nebula]

that sharpe isn't void

[tawdry flare]

that sharpe is void

[whole holly]

Two opposite beliefs

[edgy nebula]

https://giphy.com/gifs/VCPLIYOGmywr8bS8Jd

[whole holly]

Interesting

[whole holly]

Pale king if he was human

[whole holly]

I think Steel Masters are connected to Ancient Civilization

[foggy stratus]

He’d be paler.

[whole holly]

Anybody else got opinion? AppleEgg disappeared

[lone folio]

The masters want to summon the shade lord

[whole holly]

I believe same, I think we will get Boss Rush from them

[lone folio]

Like it makes sense in my head for no reason

[whole holly]

Me too

[lone folio]

And then they will summon the knight and they will trap him in something

[whole holly]

That’s interesting twist

[foggy stratus]

In summoning the Shade Lord they’d have already summoned TK.

[lone folio]

Yeah

[limpid summit]

I almost believe that

[lone folio]

They will summon the shade lord (TK) and get him in some kind of trap for a reason i am not sure about

[limpid summit]

As much as it would be annoying any major epilogue content will have to provide a compelling explanation for why TK can’t just neg diff a threat

[whole holly]

They would want to commune with god of gods

[edgy nebula]

shade lord's a pretty recent development

[foggy stratus]

I think they shouldn’t have them really be in a position to do that. Not by capturing but just by not having them there.

[whole holly]

Maybe use ton of everblooms

[near jasper]

I mean there was a steel guy watching it happen

[foggy stratus]

Jiji/Jinn wouldn’t have really been able to see it.

[whole holly]

Masters have long gaze ig

[foggy stratus]

Mfs be watching like Lurian then I guess.

[near jasper]

Unless embrace the void is the ending because then void just eats a whole kingdom

[lone folio]

Hasn't shade lord existed before somehow? I remember some ancient civilization thing about it

[craggy smelt]

Jinn might not have the same capacity as Zi for seeing stuff (Jinn isn't a steel seer, after all)
but it is interesting that steelhearts are in the kingdom at all

[foggy stratus]

They worshipped the Void. Shade Lord didn’t exist until TK got Void Heart.

[near jasper]

The shade lord is the void

[lone folio]

Nevermind i have forgotten about the void idols description

[foggy stratus]

Yes, but the Void predates Shade Lord.

[near jasper]

Yes

(probably)

[foggy stratus]

No, not probably.

[craggy smelt]

Void's been around for ages

[foggy stratus]

Shade Lord is a new thing.

[lone folio]

Yes but if they just want to summon "the void" they are summoning an ocean on top of their kingdom

[craggy smelt]

the ancient bug that holds the Shade Cloak does acknowledge TK as a shade lord, which is neat
either the concept of a shade lord existed in the past even if there never actually was a real one
or that ancient bug's memories are able to change even though its dead to acknowledge something new that's happened

[whole holly]

Or just Lord of Shades who knows

[near jasper]

How do we know

[limpid summit]

I think it’s in a vegetative state with the void seal but I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with what you’re talking about

[whole holly]

I think cosciousness of that ancient bug is preserved

[limpid summit]

Without unity already implies they were like

You know maybe we could unify it

[foggy stratus]

Shade cloak statue’s DND goes from something along the lines of “Void… power… without unity” to “Lord of Shades” after TK gets VoidHeart.

[craggy smelt]

it would also be very cool if it wasn't actually dead

[edgy nebula]

void's like a hivemind right

[near jasper]

Yeah?

[edgy nebula]

maybe because the corpse was connected to the void their memories were updated from tk hopping into the water

[craggy smelt]

I guess yeah, though a hivemind kind of implies working together - Void's like a great big soup of disconnected mind and will

[craggy smelt]

Bardoon mentions it as 'a strength before unseen'
and he seems pretty knowledgeable

[foggy stratus]

Plus there’s no mention of anything like Shade Lord before TK gets Voidheart. And since the ancient civilization worshipped the Void they’d probably have a ton of Shade Lord iconography all around if it existed before.

[edgy nebula]

people take the soul totems as evidence but theyre clearly just depictions of ac bugs

[craggy smelt]

intriguing

[near jasper]

I dont think theyd be able to witness the shade lord if it existed back then

[whole holly]

I hope we see another glimpse of Ancient Civilization, something like memory

[edgy nebula]

likely ac bugs stored and took soul from them to give as offerings to the void

[whole holly]

I agree with that

[craggy smelt]

all those totems were just to gather Void food, that's funny

[whole holly]

Is lifeblood abyss creature connected to void or does it just inhabit abyss ?

[foggy stratus]

Still, no mentions of anything like it plus Bardoon’s dialogue about power before unseen and Shade Cloak statue DND point towards nothing like it existing before.

[craggy smelt]

I wish there'd been some totems down in Pharloom's Abyss
it doesn't seem like the AC had as much down there, compared to Hallownest

[lone folio]

Ok wait what if the steel clan found something from the ancient civilization that mentioned the shade lord and that's why they want to summon it. Hell maybe they want to create a new shade lord and we will get a shade lord VZ shade lord thing.

[near jasper]

The ac stuff in pharloom is probably just remade into the weavenest

[foggy stratus]

-# Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby imo

[craggy smelt]

There is one thing I would like more lore on, more than anything else in the game
when TK gets the Void Heart and becomes the Lord of Shades, Jinn mentions that TK reminds her of her Masters
I very much want to know what that means

[whole holly]

That’s because Pharloom’s Abyss is very isolated from rest of Pharloom, how would they collect soul

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[lone folio]

I finally figured out what my brain was trying to point me towards

[whole holly]

Me too, desperately

[foggy stratus]

Maybe Jinn’s masters are all short. TBH that’s the best outcome.

[craggy smelt]

well in Hallownest, there were soul totems all throughout the kingdom
but there aren't any in Pharloom - it's like the AC just never built as far in Pharloom as they did in Hallownest
maybe it is because of the distance

[lone folio]

New prediction: the masters want to become shade lords (or maybe one shade lord, not sure)

[edgy nebula]

im hoping it just means that tk gains control over what jinn considers lesser beings

[craggy smelt]

you know, I did just realize that there aren't any soul totems in Hallownest's Abyss either?
maybe the Void was gobbling up all the ambient Soul and there was no point in putting totems so close to it

[edgy nebula]

if the masters end up having voidheart powers im gonna be so pissed

[foggy stratus]

Same.

[whole holly]

I think they are centralized in Hallownest too

[spark valve]

that would be very nonsensical but it's time to accept that making sense isn't a priority relative to being flashy

[whole holly]

That’s what I meant to imply

[craggy smelt]

then I think you're right

[whole holly]

I don’t think that’s likely

[craggy smelt]

maybe
Jinn calls TK more 'complete', so the masters might have attained some similar level
maybe over 'steel', if that turns out to be another kind of special power in the world

[whole holly]

Hierarchy? That would make them like Higher Beings

[edgy nebula]

i mean the masters being hb level is pretty obviously whatll happen

[whole holly]

I hope so

[craggy smelt]

them being hbs is pretty plausible
though it would be interesting if they aren't - maybe there's a lot of them, and they're a powerful collective
kinda like godseekers, but more powerful

[whole holly]

I think steel masters are like higher beings but for different elements

[whole holly]

I don’t think they all have same powers at least

[dense sigil]

Pale Ore = Hardened Higher Being's Shell
Pale Oil = Higher Being's Blood

any merit to this theory

[near jasper]

I dont think slug bile is blood but im no slugologist

[spark valve]

not really. pale ore comes from structures very inconsistent with that and pale oil is oil from a slug

[dense sigil]

damn

[foggy stratus]

No. Pale Ore is somehow related to Pale Beings but isn’t their like dead or old body parts and what the others said about the oil.

[marble oasis]

Pale Ore is wyrmbergris

Those aren’t eggs it’s found in….

[foggy stratus]

The fuck is that?

[marble oasis]

Wyrm ambergris

[foggy stratus]

That didn’t help.

[marble oasis]

Solid material formed in whale guts

Very valuable

[foggy stratus]

Ohhhhh perfume stuff?

[marble oasis]

Yes the perfume stuff

[edgy nebula]

if masks are made out of pale ore…

[craggy smelt]

precious wyrmburgers

[dense sigil]

crack theory, "The Unraveled", like the void, is a potential higher being akin to the Shade Lord

[limpid summit]

crack theory, “coughing baby” is akin to hydrogen bomb

[marble oasis]

This would be true if Silk Hearts let you command Silk like Void Heart lets you command Void

[midnight reef]

Everything is a higher being now goddamn

[whole holly]

i think Masters have something akin to Void Heart, but not necessarily for void, maybe other forces

Steel Heart or Soul Heart, maybe something different altogether

[marble oasis]

Everything is Pale

[midnight reef]

everyone just thinks that because the Old Hearts exist, that means that everything is now a god if its slightly unnatural

[whole holly]

i have interesting question

do you guys think Void Heart somehow serves similar purpose to Old Hearts, since Old Hearts are strength of the land, Void Heart may be strength of Abyss/void, after Ghost has Void Heart, we see different species in Abyss as well

[marble oasis]

No

[whole holly]

how so?

[marble oasis]

TK made VH on its own and draws power from its own will

[whole holly]

yeah but it still unites the Void no? it could have similar effects to what effect Old Hearts have on their lands, plus both Old Hearts and Void Heart are related to memories

[marble oasis]

how

[whole holly]

i mean with him, Void would be less volatile, giving chance for species to develop, what do you think?

[marble oasis]

No

“Life” already exists in the Void it just hates everything else

[whole holly]

what about Post-Void Heart Shadow Chargers, Gloomsacs and Gargantuan Gloom

[marble oasis]

Shadow Chargers are certainly not related to VH, and I doubt the Glooms are

[whole holly]

i guess but it could be indirect or direct consequence of unifying the void

[midnight reef]

The Abyss of Hallownest is likely so devoid of life because of the presence of a ton of angry void spirits that are hositle to seemingly everything

Maybe at one point there were Gargant Glooms, but the Shades or Pale King killed them all in the area

[whole holly]

interesting

[midnight reef]

its also entirely possible the Gargant Glooms are just native to Pharloom

[whole holly]

maybe

is it possible for Lord of Shades that Soul and Void are inseparably linked for him, way Silk and Soul are for Hornet?

[marble oasis]

Silk and Soul are linked for all GMS spawn

However not inseparably

[whole holly]

wdym, not inseparably?

[marble oasis]

Silk is not pure Soul spun into thread like some people believe

It is silk plus Soul, which can be removed

[whole holly]

oh, yeah i guess

i mean Lord of Shades, or Shade of Knight seems to turn Soul Spells into Void Spells, but knight acquires all the void spells in end, also Knight's Kingsoul charm turns into Void Heart

[blissful harbor]

we are told it’s inseparable for Hornet, which by extension would mean weavers in general

[foggy stratus]

I wouldn’t necessarily say all weavers since Hornet is like half Pale Being and is probably unique.

[shy sorrel]

How does the song that wakes up the enemies in act 3 work?

[tawdry flare]

basically the dream realm

[marble oasis]

There’s soulless silk in the exhaust organ #TryAgain

[blissful harbor]

ik it exists, there is soulless silk in deepnest unless one assumes the entire distant village is all soul silk

but for hornet it is quiet literally described as inseperable

idk what to tell you

and also like

the maternium straight up says that’s what it is

Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator. Highly coveted for its remarkable strength and mystical properties. Used to heal wounds, extend life and weave powerful runes.

[marble oasis]

That means she can’t spin it without imbuing it with Soul

It can however lose the Soul later

[finite wind]

How come the 12th architect serves weavers but the citadel she is in rn (and presumably from where she was born) is product of the conductors?

[limpid summit]

Architects were probably just continually built in the same style with similar directives

Because the ones that built them were previous architects

[finite wind]

Ok, but why would the conductors want architects that don't obey them

[limpid summit]

They did obey

The cogwork core was built at the conductors request

The vaultkeeper also defers to a weaver

[finite wind]

So they can reprogram them to listen to conductors

But not to stop listening to weavers?

Who are not in the kingdom anymore

[limpid summit]

I’m sure there’s directives to listen to both

[finite wind]

Also, to me the whole trio thing of architects vaultkeepers and conductors as a whole seems to come after the weavers left

[limpid summit]

It just doesn’t matter within the games scope

Cause we aren’t a conductor

[finite wind]

Since I don't see how they would fit in a city made of stone

Specially an architect

You know, machines

Who maybe built the core

Which wasn't needed when the weavers were there

Since they used pilgrims to sing

[finite wind]

But why is my point

Since weavers weren't there when she was created (I'm assuming that based on what I'm saying above)

Like it seems convenient that every robot attacks us except the one that works as a shop

Which breaks immersion

If it doesn't have a good reason to not attack us

Which is what I'm questioning

[shy sorrel]

Yk coral tower right?

[marble oasis]

Weavers were there

An Architect made the Sentinels, who were involved in capturing bugs to bring to the Citadel, ergo this was still in the days when Weavers needed as many bugs as possible to fill the Choir

The core might have been like architect 5

[finite wind]

Isn't the sentinels job to protect the city?

That's what the second sentinel dods

[marble oasis]

Yes, but not originally

A gleaming order, cogwork sentinels, so impressive-majestic in function they were charged-b-b-bound to the highest holy duty.
Long before the c-c-creation of the core, the sentinels ventured, even beyond these walls, to see all bugs brought-forced safe to serve the Citadel.

[finite wind]

Ah

That makes sense

[dense sigil]

do ya'll think there are artificial higher beings

[finite wind]

Then why do the robots attack us

[dense sigil]

minus GMS

[marble oasis]

haunting

[finite wind]

They have silk in them?

And why doesn't 12th attack us

[marble oasis]

Not haunted

[blissful harbor]

father of the flame is an attempt seems like

[marble oasis]

silkflies, plus their wiring and runes are probably done in silk

[finite wind]

GMS can control silkflies?

[finite wind]

Yeah but why

Or how

[marble oasis]

They’re made of silk so

[marble oasis]

Same reason shakra and pavo and bell beast and sherma and caretaker and trobbio and ballador aren’t haunted

[finite wind]

Uh idk why

Is it like hollow knight

[limpid summit]

Force of will/random

[finite wind]

Yeah

It is

[whole holly]

Lord of Shades too, since it is not natural occurrence

[blissful harbor]

i mean hornet binding GMS to become the weaver queen isn’t natural either
i assume artificial as in like being literally created with the idea of being a HB

[stray fog]

He could be a case of idol worship

Like an idol built for a real god

[foggy stratus]

I feel like then Shade Lord wouldn’t be since I doubt TK went to get Void Heart with the goal of becoming a Higher Being.

[stray fog]

We don't know the origin of higher beings anyway

For all we know, wl could be artificial

[near jasper]

Why does bell beast have no needolin dialogue

[foggy stratus]

Can’t speak.

[near jasper]

Bell beast doesnt wanna talk to us 😢

[dense sigil]

VoltVyrm is a lobotomized Higher Being!1!1!11

[finite wind]

grey root:

[stray fog]

https://cdn.wikimg.net/en/hkwiki/images/f/fe/Greyroot_Sing.ogg
It sounds like vocalizing

[finite wind]

but unlike the bell beast and groam, she can talk

and should be able to sing

[stray fog]

I said that either they have to be haunted, or they have to sing with lyrics

She isn't singing with lyrics

Capability of lyrics isn't a part of the condition

[finite wind]

Well then you are just defining your condition with the condition itself

"for a creature to be able to say stuff from needolin it has to be able to say stuff from needolin"

[stray fog]

Yeah

[finite wind]

Ok

[stray fog]

I didn't understand

[near jasper]

Doesnt the needolin compel people to sing with lyrics

[near jasper]

Test

[whole holly]

i think that Needolin ability is underrated, however it lacks scapped attunement concept, without it, it feels dry

[primal terrace]

needolin represents the song in "silksong"

[whole holly]

yeah, Threefold Melody, Needolin that sustained GMS's Light and Elegy of Deep are great additions to atmosphere of Silksong

but it doesn't tie into memories all that much we get three memories from silk hearts and two from binding first sinner and widow, compared to 4 memory fights in elegy of deep and red memory that is tied to song

so basically 5 memories aren't song related, 5 are, that is bad for song aspect of silksong, it's importance in gameplay isn't reflected

Needolin memory orb collection in verdania pales in comparison to Hollow Knight's Dream Realm expansion and everything connected to it

[potent kayak]

Guys the fourth judge was made at underworks??

[near jasper]

The fourth judge 😭

[foggy stratus]

Yes the Fourth Chorus was made in a part of the underworks.

[near jasper]

Homophobic Lesbian Weaver

[foggy stratus]

What?

[keen vector]

hornet?

[blissful harbor]

hornets logic for the GP quest line is insane
with no prompting she finds dude next to the remains of his lover turned robot, invades his memories, fucking murders him

then calls him vain

[tawdry flare]

Cinema

[spark valve]

she's positioning herself to launch a career in light wing politics on Moth News

[marble oasis]

Creatures who can’t speak have it forced out of them by the magic of the Needolin
People who can speak sing when they hear the Needolin of their own volition
If a creature cannot speak, but willingly joins in with the song, words are not forced out of them and their song remains wordless
Bell Beast and Fayforn are the only example we have of an ally who can’t speak and so joins in without words
Greyroot is joining in to avoid having her inner thoughts forced out

[marble oasis]

yeah

[near jasper]

What about fayform

[marble oasis]

Does fayforn have dialogue?

[near jasper]

No

[marble oasis]

I forgor about fayforn

Still applies

Just bb is not the only

This is why I believe Zaza is fully capable of speech btw he just doesn’t say much

[near jasper]

He might just not speak the same language

[marble oasis]

Garmond does

And they’re from within Pharloom anyway

[near jasper]

Most skarr dont speak the pharlooms language

[marble oasis]

Garmond’s village was part of the Citadel culture though

And even the Karak speak pharloom standard

[near jasper]

Wdym

[marble oasis]

Like people would leave it for the pilgrimage

[near jasper]

Can't find where garmond says that

[sinful nimbus]

The brains of the pair...

[marble oasis]

They said Garmond ride Zaza that’s why he quiet

[edgy nebula]

how bout skynx

or bosses who dont sing but still have ndd

[marble oasis]

He’s a greyroot case, he doesn’t want hornet to know what he’s thinking

[marble oasis]

Being forced out of them the same way via resonance with the Silk inside them

[marble oasis]

Either that or being a nosklike his head truly is empty

[thorny skiff]

I've waited years to ask you this question, I've climbed mountains, overcome challenges and now finally it's your turn to speak

[foggy stratus]

Interesting.

[spark valve]

tc loves reusing assets but they aren't the same location

[foggy stratus]

Yeah probably, but it’s more fun to think that the GodSeeker either skipped right past Pharloom or was able to sense GMS and her bull shit and just ignored it.

[near jasper]

Skynx only speaks in words they copied from others

I dont think they would be able to sing normally

[edgy nebula]

yeah but they dont have ndd

they do technically sing just have no ndd

their sing is a scream

[near jasper]

Idk man maybe their head is just 20 feet above the mask we see

[near jasper]

Its cute

[foggy stratus]

Wait why the fuck do snail shamans have such problems with having shit in their homes? On two separate occasions two separate snail shamans have things in their homes that they can’t get out and require a third party to get rid of?

Fraud shamans smh.

[near jasper]

They dont have bones

[foggy stratus]

Neither do the things in their homes.

[marble oasis]

“Bum ahh god anyway” ~ Godseeker, probably

[foggy stratus]

“Silk? The spiders in my old basement make that shit on their own what so special? Now this pregnant fly on the other hand…”-GodSeeker

[marble oasis]

They don’t have the Soul to cast proper spells after people stop visiting them I guess

Since they gather soul from stringing people up

[foggy stratus]

What?

Also, there’s a fucking soul totem like right outside Snail Shaman’s mound.

[marble oasis]

Pharloom Shamans at the very least

[marble oasis]

He doesn’t leave the mound does he

(Disregard the one inside)

[foggy stratus]

Snail fraudmans I tell you, the lot of them.

[marble oasis]

Anguished Aura
Eight masks hard, swirled soul enraged.
Twelve aknids flat, all juices strained.
Six pilgrims living, hung long to drain.

[foggy stratus]

Where is this from?

[marble oasis]

Ruined Chapel

The part where you get Shaman Crest

[foggy stratus]

Alright.

Altho the bell shaman guy seems to just draw soul from somewhere and pile it into his family bell of soul.

[marble oasis]

Except he was gathering that for generations and it only just fills a bell

[foggy stratus]

Then you have another shaman who was just getting wrung out and he fills a vessel about the same size. Shaman soul disparity is a very real probable facing the snail community.

[marble oasis]

Swamp shaman prolly the lebron of ts

[foggy stratus]

Would that make howling wraiths shaman the MJ since they had the strongest spell?

[near jasper]

They probably just take one of those guys that live in the bell way and it let their corpse age like wine

[foggy stratus]

Heh.

I like that.

[random aspen]

aint he like super big too

[foggy stratus]

Yeah.

[foggy stratus]

Also it’s a she, not a he.

[random aspen]

bbw

[primal terrace]

my brain too little for this

[random aspen]

hollow knight -> dead cells -> shovel knight -> smash bros -> undertale -> among us -> fortnite -> family guy

easy

[thorny topaz]

Zote is the equivalent to hitler

He has more children than the pale king

He stole the baddie bretta

I fucking hate him

He's annoying too

[random aspen]

bretta is like 15

[thorny topaz]

Dam

How old is zote?

[marble oasis]

And I uh leveled up on fortnite this weekend

[random aspen]

zote never flirted with bretta

so hes not

kratt

[thorny topaz]

Her age is not specified

also isn't the knight like 3

And zotes a bum he lost to a 3 year old

[random aspen]

you look at bretta for a second and think shes not a teen

read any of her dialogue

[limpid summit]

Zote is probably old

He also doesn’t really care about Bretta

[thorny topaz]

But zote is still the Hollow knights version of hitler

[wintry elbow]

i might have just made THE theory of the next game (IF they make one)

[thorny topaz]

What is it

[random aspen]

i got warnede for doing ts btw just a heads up

[wintry elbow]

lace is getting a game lemme cook
in hollow knight we all know how hornet was kind of a big deal throughout the game and were required for the true ending and what do you know she got her own game. in her game lace showed up a lot of times and they are related because of grandmother silk. hornet helped you get to radiance and lace helped you send grandmother silk to the void and lace became the boss and in the end we saw they were still alive same with hollow knight hornet lived but the knight didn't because it kind of just ended there. hornet survived alongside lace so wouldn't it make sense for lace to get a spinoff? they have almost the exact same stuff you need to beat lace to get to grandmother silk and you need hornet to get the kings brand both were required. they have almost the exact same stories and outcomes in both games

[wintry elbow]

but hear me out

it wasnt the hollow knight infection in silksong i dont think they would do silk again

maybe smth else

[thorny topaz]

We don't need the big version of the hollow knight if we get a game for him it could be his small form and it would be about his backstory

[random aspen]

back in hallownest how fun

what is there to see thats not already been seen

[thorny topaz]

we could also get a quirll game that would be cool

[random aspen]

no lore whatsoever

if we play as quirrel we might as well play as a completely blank protag cus we already know everything about him

also hes not very strong

[thorny topaz]

True

Still he's the goat

[random aspen]

dont get me wrong i want more quirrel a game will never work

maybe another comic (will never happen)

[thorny topaz]

[wintry elbow]

if they were to make another game who would it be off of

?