sk-lore

[low oracle]

I've made an expantion of the drapemite theory. Cope, I know.

[brisk lava]

Considering they never planned on a sequel until they started the Hornet dlc, it's likely a retcon

[wet walrus]

To be fair Herrah retcon was so fucking unnecessary

[stray fog]

They could have made hornet a one fourth weaver tbh

[low oracle]

Exactly.

[solid vine]

I wanna go back to talking about criiiiiiiime!!! What about GMS?

[low oracle]

Then why would she be "sensed strong with silk"?

[stray fog]

Which crime does the haunting come under?
Its mind. Control

[brisk lava]

Depends, it's much more fragile(hence it's name) but it did vaporize the void god

[low oracle]

GMS did less things than the Weavers and Conductors, ironically.

[solid vine]

Mass brainwashing

[stray fog]

Wyrm and pale heritage make her strong
(especially since pale is related to soul / silk)

[solid vine]

wait wat.

[low oracle]

In addition, TO NOT EVEN BREAKING. Tf is this logic???

[stray fog]

Weavers are the most evil fuckers ever

[solid vine]

Name a few crimes they committed.

[brisk lava]

Guess the powerscalers can put every damage dealing thing in Hallownest + Old stag on god tier

[stray fog]

They brainwashed the entire population of pharloom into following a fake religion, and forced them to live an entire life of toil. This was not onlt limited to those bugs, but also applied to multiple generations after them

[solid vine]

There's, like, idfk did they have a license to build the weavenests?

[solid vine]

The forced labor is there, but people have freedom of religion.

[brisk lava]

Conspiracy, Genocide, Mass psyop, abandoning duties

[stray fog]

Brainwashing them is still bad, regardless of their freedom of religion

[solid vine]

Huh. Not neat.

[stray fog]

Also they enslaved slabflies

[solid vine]

Yeah, that's truem

Still, GMS made them do it. Also she mutilated them

So

[brisk lava]

More like unethical experimentation, I don't think they would rather return to being pharlids

[stray fog]

Gms didn't give them freedom. But the Weavers decided to fuck over everyone else to gain their own freedom

Not directly gms's fault

[solid vine]

True, but they were only acting on false pretenses, given by GMS

Also, technically child abuse and endangerment because she literally calls them her children.

[brisk lava]

They have a religious prison, with the literal highest punishment being given due to apostasy

[stray fog]

She also neglected phantom

[solid vine]

Exactly!

[low oracle]

GMS:
-treated the Weavers poorly
-caused the haunting
-caused the Weavers to be hunted
-made Lace and Phantom (not good nor bad really, as Lace just has her own opinion)
Weavers:
-created an exploitive religion
-strung innocent bugs into the cycle of song
-imprisoned/punished two of their own kin
-had several attempts at killing their mother, all of which hurt these attempts (alive beings btw)
-the slab
Conductors:
-destroyed countless environments
-prevented bugs from dying, eternally keeping them to their tasks
-capitalism
-indirectly started the haunting in the first place
-turned bugs into flies, which also had to serve them
-the slab
-wiped several species from existence
-caused conflicts throughout Pharloom
-Bilewater (Groal did nothing wrong)
-Created jobs for bugs without caring for their own regard
-Forced bugs to eat maggots
-Made bugs work in literal lava
-gilded the citadel while starving bugs in the Underworks, which couldn't die from starvation anyway, hence eternal torture
-Exploited bugs THAT WERE ALREADY IN THE UNDERWORKS using religion
-did the opposite of everything good the Pale King made

[brisk lava]

Unethical biology experiments with phantom and lace

[solid vine]

And for all we know Lace too

[low oracle]

Going now, bye guys!

and gals

[stray fog]

Damn I expected the weaver list to be bigger

I guess conductors are even more evil

[solid vine]

Capitalism is crazy work.

[brisk lava]

Are they wrong though?

[solid vine]

They were coerced by the weavers tho

[cunning wigeon]

I love the capitalism just thrown in with borderline war crimes (capitalism is worse)

[low oracle]

They created the presets, the layout for everything the conductors did, and also did much worse things. They are basically the person inventing the gun, and then trying not to be blamed for mass shootings.

[stray fog]

They didn't need to do allat to karak, verdania, etc

[solid vine]

Fair point.

[brisk lava]

That was likely before the Weavers even rebelled

[low oracle]

Not really, Whiteward for one is their own making. The Weavers would have known better.

[solid vine]

Damn

[stray fog]

I don't know the timeline, so I can't say anything about this

[low oracle]

Nope, the Karak fills the High Halls and Verdania is said to be in the age of Conductors.

I really gotta go now though.

[brisk lava]

The green prince was likely the first to witness the encroaching GMS destroy their lands

[low oracle]

GMS didn't do anything regarding the lands.

[brisk lava]

The Karaks were the last

[frosty gate]

"Gunboat diplomacy is the pursuit of foreign policy objectives with the aid of conspicuous displays of naval power."

I would love to see the display of power honestly, but there are no such records

[wet walrus]

Why does Hornet slap Kratt for peeping if her cloak is only a utility?

[brisk lava]

Considering he's literally a smaller form of what once was a gigantic being (likely consuming large quantities of bugs), I think just his presence was threat enough

[brisk lava]

It's about the message

[cunning wigeon]

Because it’s Kratt

[frosty gate]

There's a select group of people who know of his nature

[brisk lava]

What about the blinding lights he constantly emits?

[frosty gate]

"Cool flashbang buddy, get out of my land" Like what about it?
Say it signifies power, but even then, there's no reason to believe it was gunboat diplomacy

Like seriously if PK Really wanted to be a bad ruler, he would've been one

Or we would've seen any clue about it

We saw plenty of clues in Pharloom to see how it got fucked

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King was able to secure diplomatic relationships with almost all neighboring tribes his presence clearly wasn't like a threat because he glowed

[frosty gate]

But in Hallownest, we get nothing but words saying "Yeah they're chill and we are willing to deal with them but we don't vibe with his kingdom"

[hidden gazelle]

I feel like GM silk did the least amount of evil stuff in this game. I’m pretty sure the haunting occurred to weaken the sealing efforts that the weavers set in place so technically the weaver put other bugs in the cross fire of their fued with GM silk

[frosty gate]

With the express exceptions of The Hive and Deepnest

[wet walrus]

His followers are aware of that though. All of their gigantic idols were in the shape of king not shape of wyrm. Also Mantises are implied to not have love for old hallownest yet they formed a truce.
He also gave full authority to Unn over Greenpath where Unn ruled by his own laws.
His real flaw was the ugly casteism which he seemingly did nothing about it.

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers sealed Grand Mother Silk because they wanted freedom

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/minor-spelling-mistake-gif-21179057

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers suck themselves as did Conductors but Grand Mother Silk is kinda the root cause of everything and the game makes a point of that a few times

[frosty gate]

And we don't even know if he glowed 24/7, we just know what #2 PK simp says

[frosty gate]

Yeah its just a cycle of horrible people

[limpid summit]

Okay Star

I have a genuine question

Like a lore question

In universe

Why would Hornet say that to GP

Like does she not have any clue that you shouldn’t spit platitudes at a grieving guy who wasn’t even directly hurt by GMS

Imagine if someone’s spouse got murdered and some dude just started talking about the politics of 100 years ago

[sinful nimbus]

She's trying to comfort him by saying it was out of his control

Its kinda weird when GP told her to piss off and let him be alone but

[frosty gate]

Star, not slandering Hornet at the chance?

Saying something decent about her?

Retconned

Rename this channel to RC-lore

[whole holly]

she had to take chance to indirectly slander her father as well

[hidden gazelle]

Oh yeah don’t get me wrong, she started the whole cycle 100%. BUT weavers in an attempt to better their situation created a solution that would rope in an entire kingdom worth of people (which the people who would be roped in did their own thing that allowed the haunting to occur even easier due to all their silk experimentation)

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that's fair

[autumn umbra]

didn't she destroy the Old Hearts' civilizations to become the monarch of Pharloom?

[plain gazelle]

the only one she (probably) battled directly was khann

but tbh we know very little about what GMS actually did in between arriving in pharloom and getting trapped

[autumn umbra]

true

I have the faint memory of someone saying she did something bad is my argument

so

nothing else to add-

[plain gazelle]

i mean, the whole haunting thing is not great

[graceful grail]

https://youtu.be/v9YcbJMKJPk?si=GRNXigKA4ipM4y6a

OK, so I was listening to the unreleased OST. This is wisp thicket.

I noticed that it has the same chords and the same strings and low notes as Dark Descent (the music when you’re fighting void enemies)

Could this mean anything lore wise for how the fire bugs aren’t haunted??

(it’s literally the exact same low note and I don’t think it’s coincidence)

[stray fog]

I can't think of any relation between burning bugs and void apart from the ost similarity you pointed out

[graceful grail]

I know it’s not like a real connection. But you can hear the void swishing sounds in the background of it to somehow.

[stray fog]

[grizzled summit]

Is flea brew the flea bath water?

[wheat locust]

what

[hidden gazelle]

#worthit

[rapid bloom]

It's as if I look in a mirror

[stray fog]

W pfp

Are you nosk

[finite wind]

If Bilewater hates us, why is groal smiling

[rapid bloom]

You are nosk

[stray fog]

We are nosk

[rapid bloom]

Kinda strange to see myself in a mirror

Is this lore?

SK lore

[graceful grail]

https://classical.music.apple.com/us/album/1838949732?l=en-US

For The Musicians-

Does Lost Verdainia switch between 7/4 and 8/4 timing??

Or is it one 4/4 then 3/4 then (2) 4/4s repeat 🔁??

[whole marsh]

It’s Monster Energy Drink. The young ones sometimes dunk themselves in because it’s just kids being kids

[vestal oyster]

wisp thicket

[whole holly]

what about it?

[vestal oyster]

i just don't like how people think it's the grimm troupe for some reason even though their fire is just normal fire...

the burning bugs

[whole holly]

although Wisp Fire is not normal fire it is a some kind of silk burning ritual fire

[vestal oyster]

i really love those strange hidden lore corners of games that seem massive than their obscure lore gives them

[whole holly]

Wisps are living things, basically Fireflies

[vestal oyster]

sherma is canonically the strongest character in the hollow knight universe

like how did he get past last judge

most would say because he is innocent and didn't take lives

he took the life of the last Judge

[frosty gate]

Considering he said that the Judges don't wake up for him, he probably just strolled past Last Judge, sang, and kept going with no issue at all

Now, the real question is how he got to the Baths

Now this makes no sense

Yeah sure 3d world 2D perspective and all that

But the Grand Gate is 1

It's literally the only way in

[stray fog]

Aren't most of the citadel enemies re animated corpses

Re animated specifically to fight hornet

[frosty gate]

It's not because of the enemies

Look at the map

If he passes Grand Gate, the stroll is fairly easy

But how the fuck does he pass Grand Gate

And even if you get to the Baths

The door is closed!!!

How did he get in???

[stray fog]

His magic door opening song

[frosty gate]

The most normal answer I can think of is that TC didn't account for people going through Phantom without doing the Bells

Imagine they just say "Fuck it", update the game and give us a Sherma corpse in the Last Judge's arena if you go through Phantom without activating the Bells

Still, it doesn't make sense, Last Judge shouldn't kill Sherma

[ember river]

The grand gate has a proper access in the top floor but it's collapsed

Maybe Sherma was the last to get through and it fell in his battle against the haunted citadel elites

[frosty gate]

The Haunted enemies in the Citadel were waken up by GMS when Hornet reached the Citadel, not before

[finite wind]

Who is at fault for Bilewater? The weavers' citadel or the current one?

[ember river]

Why would that be the case

Also some of them are alive, not just husks

[frosty gate]

Because we literally see it happen

[ember river]

We see it happen to a few of them, the majority are shambling around

Also it's mentioned that haunted pilgrims do kill normal pilgrims, not just hornet

It's safe to assume the same holds true for the choir bugs

[frosty gate]

How come there was absolutely NOTHING in the entire place we explore until we specifically see GMS wake them up???

[ember river]

There was though

You can see them walk around hallways

[maiden meteor]

kind of hard to tell

We know that at one point Citadel used to be humble stone building

[finite wind]

Wdym

[maiden meteor]

but it's hard to pinpoint when exactly rapid expansion began

"Hark! ...ilgrim! You... climb... our eternal embrace... who stand stru... the threshold... our stark Citadel of stone... kno... true service may now commence."

from Pious Isamor

he also says "Give... of yourself... for great Pharloom, for... first-children who bequeath it to us... for our salva... sure to come!"

which makes me feel like it was around when Weavers passed ruling onto Conductors entirely

so Weaver-era Citadel was like a monastery

where luxury was minimal and pilgrims devoted themselves full to serving

[edgy nebula]

probably the conductors

[frosty gate]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, can you show me when do we see them walking the halls?

[finite wind]

But mask maker says they built the citadel

And I assume he means the current one

[ember river]

Not right now, no, but that long hallway that connects the rightmost part of choral chambers and the tower structure with the whiteward door at the bottom has them I believe

Living choirbugs can also be found near the spa as well

[ember river]

Why?

[frosty gate]

Wait do you mean the ones that go in groups???

[ember river]

Yeah, those

[frosty gate]

They are haunted

[ember river]

Duh

[frosty gate]

How do you even know they are alive?

We don't see them alive

[ember river]

Even if they aren't they don't wake up when hornet arrives

So alive enough

[frosty gate]

I need to replay this zone because I can swear to God right now

There are no enemies until you encounter Lace

No Choir enemies at least

[ember river]

Maybe not but that's just for cinematic

There are similarly awoken enemies in the underworks

[frosty gate]

Pause right there for a second

You are basing this entire argument

On the fact

[ember river]

No

[frosty gate]

That that is "Just for cinematic"

Because us not seeing a singl enemy until we meet Lace

[ember river]

I am basing it on the fact that haunted bugs just shambling around is an actual thing

[frosty gate]

Correct, and we see none on the way in UNTIL we meet Lace

[ember river]

We see them in the underworks, haunted pilgrims are said to attack other pilgrims, and we barely see anything until we meet Lace anyways

There's no mention of them awakening by any sane citadel bug either

So you're the one arguing haunted choirbugs aren't moving around like literally every other haunted bug category, I'm not the one who should be scouring the game for evidence

[frosty gate]

You should because like

[finite wind]

Cause why would he be talking about a non existent non problematic citadel when talking about the issues of the current citadel

[frosty gate]

The Citadel doesn't have enemies until you meet Lace

[ember river]

Because the current citadel is a direct consequence of their actions

[ember river]

The citadel has enemies, you play through the underworks first

[finite wind]

Not really

They had nothing to do with the issues of the current citadel

[frosty gate]

The Underworks is not part of the Citadel

Its explicitly stated

[finite wind]

So blaming it on weavers is kind of very unfair and not STH a wise person would say

[frosty gate]

That the Underworks is not the Citadel

[ember river]

The issues of the current citadel are directly caused by them jailing GMS what are you talking about

[finite wind]

No, they are thanks to the conductors doing a bad job managing everything

[ember river]

It's separated in the map because it'd be fugly to have a giant yellow blob take up 1/3rd of it with no distinction between sections, it's a critical part of the citadel's infrastructure, has the citadel's sigil all over, is seamlessly integrated within it and worker bugs assume that's what the citadel is

By all means, it is a part of the citadel

[ember river]

The weaver glaze is real

[frosty gate]

"While it has direct connections to several parts of the the Citadel, the Underworks is not considered a part of the Citadel proper, as denoted by the zoomed-out map."

[ember river]

No shit that's just what I told you

The wiki isn't an all knowing source of knowledge you know

[lyric widget]

Loam also explicitly talks about "the Citadel above", separately from the Underworks:
"The Citadel! Most miracle of a place, bright and holy! Fresh water for all, much as can drink! Air so clean, can see the great rooves above! When me thinks of Citadel above, me works hardest of all!"

[frosty gate]

I was looking for this one

[ember river]

Don't several lines from other workers kinda contradict that one?

As if the underworks was what they were rewarded with after reaching the citadel

[lyric widget]

they don't contradict it, no

[ember river]

In any case, the underworks and the slab are quite obviously parts of the citadel megastructure

[lyric widget]

you can say that but it's not what the game says and shows

[ember river]

Guess the ventrica doesn't matter, or the architects doing their work in there, or the sigil, or it being seamlessly integrated with every single other part

For fucks sakes the cradle, the entire reason why the citadel exist, isn't considered part of the citadel by the map

[lyric widget]

it's really a matter of semantics at this point, if you want to call the Underworks the Citadel, go ahead. the game doesn't do that though

[frosty gate]

And in any case, this whole argument has nothing to do with the fact that the Choirbugs were not roaming until Hornet reaches the Citadel because everything there is dead

We literally see GMS wake them up

[ember river]

When

Also every other haunted bug type has a bunch of them roaming, why would the citadel be any different

[lyric widget]

that is true yeah, you can see that happen

[frosty gate]

Hello????

[ember river]

Yeah, that room has a bunch of them that awake when Hornet comes near

Not the rest

Also you barely see any rooms until you find Lace

[lyric widget]

you might want to replay that part of the game, there are no enemies until this moment happens

[plain gazelle]

you can go through lots of rooms before finding lace if you go through the hidden wall in the grand gate instead of the elevator, there's no enemies

[ember river]

Huh

[plain gazelle]

also the choral chambers ost with the conspicuous choir singing doesn't start until after the GMS scream/enemy revival

[ember river]

Wait not even the robots

What the fuck

Why would the machines be inactive

[plain gazelle]

well off the top of my head idk if you can even pass any robots on that route

but it's pretty long

[ember river]

Clawmaidens

[plain gazelle]

don't think so

[lyric widget]

the cogworkers are in a room that's not accessible until you trigger the wake up

[plain gazelle]

this part is kinda important because choral chambers OST is missing its choir vocals in act 3 so it's implied to be at least partially diagetic

[ember river]

Guess the great slumber Caretaker mentions was just them all just dying or going to sleep

[frosty gate]

I told you, the Citadel is literally dead

[frosty gate]

Lace likely killed them all

[lyric widget]

Hornet also says that to Seamstress:
"I have ventured high, seen the Citadel and its state. That place is long lost... generations lost, a gilded tomb, drowned in Silk dregs."

[ember river]

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure Hornet didn't really expect it to be all haunted, even if they were walking around

The citadel being a tomb wouldn't have changed much

[rose hollow]

Not all of them are dead

[ember river]

Probably that

[rose hollow]

Jubilana

Caretaker

...

[frosty gate]

"Might'a seen herself this place's protector, keepin' it clean and quiet as she did. Course quiet meant most crossin' her path found a painful end from her pin."
Bighead Caretaker

[frosty gate]

And the Gourmand

[rose hollow]

And his servant

[ember river]

And his servant

[frosty gate]

All unhaunted mind you

[ember river]

And Bellador

[rose hollow]

Are robots haunted or are they just forced into servitudw

?

[frosty gate]

Yes

[rose hollow]

Because if they would be hauted

[rose hollow]

Well that isnt really logical

[ember river]

And they probably didn't really stumble into hornet

[rose hollow]

Since pious isamore isnt haunted

And he is a robot

[frosty gate]

Or Sherma

[frosty gate]

He's a different thing

[rose hollow]

But idk id he has a silkfly

[ember river]

Wait, I meant lace

[rose hollow]

Possibly

[plain gazelle]

pious isamor is just a recording i don't think there's a silkfly in there or anything

[rose hollow]

Possibly

[ember river]

It's also from before the modern automatons I believe

So older than even clawmaidens

[rose hollow]

Another example of not-haunted citadelians would be loam

[lyric widget]

all the cogwork bugs are haunted, yeah, you can tell from the strings when they're singing to the Needolin

[ember river]

And twelfth but twelfth is a robot

[rose hollow]

He basically lives there and he aint haunted

[rose hollow]

Yeah

[ember river]

I don't think their behaviour would change that much

Also the Vaultkeeper is alive and well

I forgot his name

[rose hollow]

I mean, if silkflies are haunted, wouldnt also the lamps try to murder you?

[frosty gate]

Nothing can kill Ol Cardi

[rose hollow]

Also why is the haunting in bellhart so diffrent from everywhere else

[frosty gate]

Fuck Caretaker all my buddies love Cardinius

[ember river]

I think the silkflies are the power source and the instructions are runes woven in silk

[frosty gate]

That was Widow's work

[ember river]

So GMS could just edit their silky runic kernel I guess

[rose hollow]

Yeah

But

Still

[maiden meteor]

I mean Lace can kinda control silkflies (probably)

[rose hollow]

Why are they literally suspended mid-air

[maiden meteor]

you also sort of control them with needoline in mist

[ember river]

He's technically the new pontiff too

[ember river]

Because Widow did that

[frosty gate]

Lace probably didn't care about killing them, no clue why. Jubilana might've played it safe, Caretaker doesn't move from his camp

[ember river]

Caretaker was hiding before we rang the bell, was he not?

[maiden meteor]

instead of GMS naturally controlling Bellhart sitizens it's Widow redirecting silk with her playing to string them up

[frosty gate]

Yeah

What I wonder is why she didn't kill Ballador

[maiden meteor]

shamans are sneaky enough bastards

[frosty gate]

She killed the Choir

[ember river]

Also the rest don't really leave their place except jubilana

Also the rest don't really leave their place except jubilana

[maiden meteor]

I don't think Lace can really clear entire Citadel

so she likely just kills anyone she happens to stumble upon

[frosty gate]

But she did, only place she didn't clear was the Underworks

[rose hollow]

Lace probably wasnt the reason of killing all of the people

[ember river]

Yeah, that's what Caretaker says

[rose hollow]

Possibly the sentinels

[frosty gate]

The Sentinels are off

[rose hollow]

Before they were taken out of comission i mean

[frosty gate]

Who would take them out of comission if they were all dead or haunted

[maiden meteor]

Or some of citadel bugs got haunted and killed the rest

[rose hollow]

They wouldve died off? Idk

[ember river]

But killing bugs she comes across is enough honestly, Hornet can wipe out most of the Citadel in a short amount of time, Lace had a much longer time

[frosty gate]

This i agree with

[ember river]

I'd say it's fair to assume most, if not all of them got haunted

[rose hollow]

Ig this makes sense

[maiden meteor]

Caretaker Whiteward dialogue implies that Citadel bugs and their descendants were the first to fall to haunting

[frosty gate]

Which is why Ballador being alive is weird

Why not kill him?

[ember river]

Well we know not all but a bunch of them did

[ember river]

Because he's actually super buff and super strong

He used silk and resisted the haunting

That has to amount to something

[maiden meteor]

Ballador literally sits on silk IV and can resist haunting somehow

he's just built different

[ember river]

Caps and shells may fall to dust, but Conductor Ballador readjusts...

[maiden meteor]

We think he died in Act 3 but in fact he just shed conductor clothes

Hollow Knight: Balladong

[frosty gate]

Well he didn't use silk, but he did resist the haunting surprisingly

Why is he even sick

He shouldn't be sick

[maiden meteor]

I mean he's probably ancient

and on life support

[frosty gate]

True, he is the Last Conductor

[ember river]

He does use silk, the loom keeps pumping it into his body

[frosty gate]

I thought you meant using Silk as in, magic

[ember river]

He actually climbed up to the top, awoke Lace and threw her at GMS

[ember river]

Ah no, I meant as in whiteward

[maiden meteor]

do we even have any estimates for how long the Citadel been out of commission

[ember river]

Not really

[frosty gate]

Yeah yeah, i get it

[ember river]

Times aren't well defined in these games

[frosty gate]

By the way, I don't think the Vaultkeepers are dead

[ember river]

Which makes sense because there isn't a proper day/night cycle

[frosty gate]

Like, the order

The people in the Whispering Vaults are not dead

Haunted but not dead

[maiden meteor]

I guess curtains do look kinda worn out

[ember river]

Cardinius is alive at the very least, and there are haunted vaultborns

[maiden meteor]

but there's moth everywhere

oh right Cardinius

I guess it would put Citadel fall somewhere within average bug's lifespan

[frosty gate]

There's also the Vaultkeeper in the church place thingy

[ember river]

We don't know how long those live

[frosty gate]

Not really

It would be non-average

Silk prolongs lifetime

That's why they did the surgeries

[maiden meteor]

Yeah but we don't really have evidence of Cardinius being infused

[ember river]

The citadel's fall is portrayed as a very old event

By caretaker and the game in general

[frosty gate]

Oh wait Cardi? He is regularly old

[ember river]

So probably more than a few generations, and these bugs can just live quite long by themselves

[frosty gate]

But Pontiff probably died of age

[ember river]

Or went crazy on his own after finding the truth

[maiden meteor]

Well I mean also, pilgrim tradition is still very much alive

[frosty gate]

That he did, but he died in his bed

[ember river]

Yep

[frosty gate]

So he probably died of age regularly

[ember river]

Yeah, there haven't been centuries but I'd argue a couple generations at least

[frosty gate]

I don't really try to measure the things by ages because bug ages are hard to get

[maiden meteor]

and I imagine that without influx of newborn bugs from Citadel their numbers would dwindle within like 5 generations at best

[ember river]

Their lifespan varies from bug to bug

[frosty gate]

At least in the timeline, I just put how things happened in order, not in time

[ember river]

This is the best way to think about things honestly

Timeframes are very loosely described

[frosty gate]

Yeah, there's no way to measure how long things take

[maiden meteor]

I think it's still fun to try make rough estimations

[frosty gate]

You can only say yeah this happened after this

And that's that

[ember river]

It's fun but sadly we have no way to know for sure

[frosty gate]

Not to say it isn't, I just don't do it

[maiden meteor]

frankly though im not sure even TC know for sure

although it's interesting that like

we know Citadel fell likely years to decades ago

but Bellhart was only hit relatively recently

Widow was kinda slakin

[plain gazelle]

it's hard to really imagine what widow was doing the whole time in general

like you'd think the fact that a pro-GMS weaver was hanging around pharloom the whole time would be significant

[maiden meteor]

well her past is really shady too

is she full-weaver? who mutilated her? was she always pro-GMS???

[frosty gate]

Lace, Widow and Phantom have unreal batches of time where they just don't exist lorewise

[maiden meteor]

and why GMS doesn't do anything about mutilated allied weaver running around

couldn't she just, unstuck those pins

[whole holly]

i bet she could heal her somehow

[frosty gate]

I genuinely believe GMS doesn't care about Widow and Widow was doing it all because she's fucking stupid

[whole holly]

or citadel, yarnaby, whiteward surgeons and so on...

[maiden meteor]

and if Widow was part of weaver rebellion prior why GMS didn't just consume her power or whatever she needed Hornet for

[whole holly]

true, she seems to lack intelligence

[frosty gate]

What power? She doesn't have Silk

GMS probably doesn't even sense her

[whole holly]

Hallownest timeline seems to be easier

[frosty gate]

People keep saying it isn't but I swear it is

[plain gazelle]

well lace and phantom you can at least reasonably push their births forward to haunting era, Widow was most likely punished by fellow weavers and no later than the conductors' takeover, so she's been around a long time apparently doing fuckall except moping around the cradle

[whole holly]

okay but citadel bugs can see her though, she can talk and ask for help

[frosty gate]

Why would they help her?

[whole holly]

Pharloom seems direct but also vague and conclusions can be contradictory

[maiden meteor]

that's honestly really funny option

only loyal to GMS weaver and GMS has no idea she even exists

[whole holly]

because she is a weaver, she should be healed... or just empathy

[frosty gate]

I honestly think that's what is happening, eve if GMS knows Widow is there, she doesn't even acknowledge her

[whole holly]

does Lace even notice Widow

[frosty gate]

She probably blames her

[maiden meteor]

but also like

was Widow's silk like completely destroyed

she would probably still have silk inside even if it was pinned

[frosty gate]

"Her body seemed a Weaver's, but her mask had been forcibly removed, and her own Silk was bound useless by heavy pins lodged through her spine."

Bound useless

[maiden meteor]

it's kinda funny you can render weaver powerless by shoving pins into them

I wonder if those pins were somewhat magical or what

I can't imagine you can just remove someone's divine ability with normal pins

[frosty gate]

Probably seals

[calm tinsel]

I feel like those pins were put to the place where silk is developed

[maiden meteor]

weavers really were ass if you think bout that

[frosty gate]

I hope we somehow get some answer about this

[maiden meteor]

didn't even have dignity of just killing widow

[frosty gate]

Like Widow and Phantom specifically just

Poof out of the lore

[maiden meteor]

Well

[frosty gate]

If you say Phantom is meant to be forgettable I'm going to strangle you

[maiden meteor]

for all we know Phantom was immediately admitted to Organ after being deemed failure

although would GMS even deem her failure

[calm tinsel]

I feel like they just want the worst to the rebellion and failures

[maiden meteor]

she literally says she doesn't care if her child is frail and mad

[frosty gate]

She was a deemed a failure by GMS for whatever reason, but why would she put her in the Organ????

One of the machines actively keepeing her asleep

Plus, I'm a firm believer that Phantom is either the older or the middle sister

[maiden meteor]

I mean we don't really know if organ keeps gms asleep

[calm tinsel]

phantom strikes me as the older sibling

[maiden meteor]

it's primary function is venting deadly fumes

[frosty gate]

I'm including Weavers into this shit

[calm tinsel]

OH okay

[maiden meteor]

which would makes sense for gms to keep so her undead army doesn't die more

[frosty gate]

And woe how terrible it would be if the Citadel that keeps mommy imprisoned dies a terrible death

[maiden meteor]

what if Phantom matured at some point

[calm tinsel]

are we talking abt phantom or gms

[maiden meteor]

which GMS didn't want

she just wanted forever child

[calm tinsel]

ain’t gonna lie thats creepy as shit

[maiden meteor]

GMS IS creepy mom

she ascended weavers just so they would sustain her forever

[plain gazelle]

phantom could be helping maintain the citadel to spite GMS, or she could just be hanging out at the organ because she's emo and it's dramatic, or it could be GMS wants the citadel maintained so she can keep using it to worship herself after she wakes up (just without the sleepy song), or a million other things because there's not much to go off of

[maiden meteor]

then she probably made Phantom but she devloped own opinions so GMS cast her to bumfuck nowhere

and Lace as we know is stuck being forever child in mind and body

[frosty gate]

I'm a firm believer that Phantom was made pre sealing of GMS

[calm tinsel]

So in simple terms GMS hates independency of her creations

[maiden meteor]

GMS also was using choir bugs to catch weavers so it would be counterproductive to let them die from deadly fumes

[maiden meteor]

yeah basically

overprotective mom with godly megalomania

[calm tinsel]

More like abusive

[frosty gate]

I think the Conductors or the Weavers extorted her into it

"You need silk, we have silk, you can work eternally and we keep you alive. Win win"

[maiden meteor]

"From our silk a child born loyal" girl NONE of your children were loyal

even Phantom was just seeking to die in battle

[sinful nimbus]

Widow erasure

[maiden meteor]

honestly were weavers stupid

even with Widow's silk bound she could probably still like

do something

like sabotage citadel operations and help GMS wake up earlier

and she still is a competent fighter

but noooooo they had to be spiteful

[frosty gate]

And yet she has NOTHING

We know if she did ANYTHING AT ALL

[maiden meteor]

maybe stupidity runs in weaver bloodline

inherited it from GMS

[plain gazelle]

i mean powerscaling is hard because it doesn't line up with in game difficulty, but all we really see widow doing is pulling down some bells that are near her using a bunch of silk that happens to be nearby. If we fought her outside of that specific room she would have nothing

[frosty gate]

There's literally a HUGE hole in the lore where Widow literally doesn't exist

[maiden meteor]

maybe she spent decades just whining in cradle hoping GMS would notice her

[frosty gate]

Like Phantom we can idk say she locked herself at the Organ bt Widow???

[frosty gate]

Well she was there for a while

[maiden meteor]

but still it was really stupid of weavers to let her live

I guess they assumed she would be too broken to try anything

which tbh she was until a bit ago

[plain gazelle]

and apparently they were right cuz she didn't do shit

[maiden meteor]

their treatment of FS isn't much better

"Absolution denied" kinda implies she was intentionally kept alive by whatever weaver witchery

Well, petrified weavers are kind of alive

but I imagine in case of FS it wasn't voluntary

[plain gazelle]

first sinner is a whole other can of worms

[maiden meteor]

I imagine even after rising against GMS they still considered themselves gods

you can see from Red Memory how massive their ego was

"Prove yourself more weaver than wyrm"

like cmon having wyrm blood sounds sick as hell

the only reason they dipped from ruling Pharloom is likely because they simply couldn't

we should also remember they actively researched Abyss for not-so-good purposes I imagine

I think weavers take the mantle of biggest assholes of HK world

[frosty gate]

It's between them and GMS

[rose hollow]

Idk who says that but ik for a fact someone says 'cursed to half life for eternity' which basically confirms that the weavers are at the very least still alive

[pale narwhal]

Them's who used to dive're all long dead, or cursed ta half life.
-Ballow on the diving bell

but we dont know that hes talking about the monuments.

[edgy nebula]

cursed to half life is likely referring to the haunting

[plain gazelle]

yeah ballow's not talking about weavers there, they didn't use the diving bell

[limpid summit]

Petrified weavers aren’t really alive

They’re like pseudo alive

The rune harp says they will wait and die

[plain gazelle]

yeah i more interpreted their whispers as a kind of prerecorded psychic message, since they all say the same generic thing

except FS who's either more aware in death or had some degree of foresight

[rose hollow]

Yeah... They did?

How would they get to the abyss then

And make weavensst absolom

I mean one of them literally resides there

[gentle aspen]

“Pseudo alive” and they’re called burial spires

[pale narwhal]

they mightve, but yea i dont think he means just weavers

[plain gazelle]

the way hornet leaves the abyss during the abyss escape sequence, that tunnel has weaver architecture at the top and bottom with a big weaver spool of silk in the middle

[rose hollow]

I mean they have allat fancy teleportation elevators, but those are mostly short distance

[rose hollow]

Oh

Yeah i forgor about that

But why does it implode when we go through it

[plain gazelle]

it's been a long time and it's a geologically active area, rocks have blocked it off and when we disturb it lava pours out

[edgy nebula]

what if theyre... buried alive?

[gentle aspen]

blocked

[rose hollow]

And if the weavers went through there, wouldnt they have modernified it, cos aint no way they went up and down that allose times

[rose hollow]

Ya but most of them were already dead

That would literally jst be zombies

[edgy nebula]

that's why he says either dead or cursed to half life

[rose hollow]

Hmm

I really dont think anyone else from the weavers used the diving bell

Btu

If ballow knows how to operate it

Then ig some bugs mustve

Wait huys

New theory

Ehat if the weaver pillars

Are basically them hibernating

Like butterflies before theyre literally butterflies, but without the transformation

When they hibernate they turn into those pillars

[pallid blade]

Yeah that’s essentially what they become

[sturdy knot]

[limpid summit]

Well they aren’t fully dead

Or like

Not in the way that matters

[gentle aspen]

its the hkverse no one dies in the way that matters

[sinful nimbus]

What if you forget someone and seal them away forever

[pallid blade]

Damn

[cinder remnant]

When you accidently forget your friend Steve is doing an expedition below the lava and pull the diving bell back up

[edgy nebula]

in gurr's hunters journal entry, hornet mentions that he likely was testing himself for a reason that she'll probably never know, do we have any theories on what gurr was testing himself for

[craggy smelt]

could've just been a Hunter situation

not testing themselves for anything specific

just a life spent always putting oneself to the test of the hunt

[limpid summit]

The mantle of king

The surviving Skarr must be led by a mottled as a return to the unity Karmelita offered

Gurr is still alive anyway

Maybe he thought he fought well enough

[velvet maple]

Wait, if Lace is a direct creation of GMS and assuming that Herrah is too, does that mean that Lace could possibly be Hornets aunt?

[edgy nebula]

in a sense yes

[velvet maple]

Damn

[edgy nebula]

hornet will never live down the fact that an eternal child is her aunt

[livid nimbus]

From what I understand GMS didn't birth the weavers so much as she just granted them consciousness

So she's not really related to her more than she is to the people of the pale king for example

[craggy smelt]

she turned them from beasts (pharlids) into weavers using her silk
she still regarded them as her children, whether there's any kind of genetic relation or not

[livid nimbus]

True but she didn't treat them as children so much as addressed them as such. Their entire revolution started because they were being exploited and found out they weren't her daughters

She called us daughter's... She lied something like that iirc

[edgy nebula]

it was she called us divine

[livid nimbus]

"She called us daughter's... Called us Devine... She lied" is the full quote

[fresh badger]

Devine

[livid nimbus]

Divine*

Sorry

[craggy smelt]

Silk's precise views on the Weavers relation-wise isn't made super clear, but she considered Lace to be 'pure' compared to them
"...Better a child spun pure... than them..."

[livid nimbus]

I mean I totally agree there's symbolism there. She's called Grand mother silk which is just an obvious reference to her relationship to Herra and Hornet. Silksong talks about motherhood and has many different representations of this. One of the main ones being GMS and Herra, mothers to the protagonist and to her fold. But the original question talked about them being related like family which they aren't

[marble oasis]

They're sort of "alive" since you can still hear them breathing and they're still conscious but the petrification isn't something they can come back from so they're effectively dead

[muted lantern]

They didn't rebel because of first sinners revelation, in fact first sinner was imprisoned by the weavers and the citadel for making that claim.

[craggy smelt]

what exactly is the basis for this idea?
because I hear it constantly and I find it completely implausible.

[livid nimbus]

I've heard that theory before and while it does make sense with her being trapped in the slab I don't think it changes the fact they weren't treated like daughters

[livid nimbus]

Iirc this theory comes from the slab being built after the weavers took care of the citadel

[craggy smelt]

I heard it in mossbag's video, I think that at least has popularized the view

[muted lantern]

well we find her caged in a citadel made cell (the modern citadel stylings, therefore after gms's sealing), bound by weaver seals. And the backstory we get about her is her claiming the weavers are not truly gms's daughters, therefore not truly divine. That seems the most logical as the weavers would react quite harshly to someone challenging their divinity and right to rule when they have built up a religion around their worship.

[livid nimbus]

I kinda wish he took a little more time for things to clear out and theories to be made before doing a silksong equivalent of the mostly complete lore of hollow knight

Feel like a lot of the things he covers in that video were disproven even before he released it

[craggy smelt]

FS being pissed off over Silk's lie seems more than likely to be the tipping point that moved the Weavers to rebel and seal her - it doesn't follow that Atla would then want to give the game away to all other common bugs. If the other Weavers knew and still wanted to keep exploiting common bugs, why would FS care about them

My biggest issue with it is that FS is strongly implied to be Atla, and Weavenest Atla is full of Citadel-related crafting (Bellshrines, etc.)
The Citadel was run on exploiting bugs, so it makes no sense for Atla to have masterminded that system, and then once it was up and running try to dismantle it by telling all the common bugs the Weavers weren't divine and therefore they shouldn't be served.

[craggy smelt]

re. these points
The Citadel was built after GMS' sealing - during its earliest era it was unadorned stone.
It became filigree after the time of the Conductors takeover, so the Slab would have been in operation at least during their era.

Therefore FS being thrown in a gilded cell could mean either Conductor-Era or Haunting-Era.
Given that Weaver hunting only started up in Hauting-Era and FS' cage matches the style of Weaver cages (albeit much larger), I'm inclined to Haunting-Era (therefore Silk).

Silk also has silk-magic, runes, and even Weavers working for her (ex. Widow) during the Haunting-Era, so FS cage has nothing that she or her forces couldn't have produced.

Also, if the Weavers wanted FS not to reveal the truth to Citadel bugs, it would make more sense to lock her away in a Weavenest somewhere, instead of a Citadel-run institution like the Slab.
But if she was locked up by someone who didn't know about the Weavenests...

[livid nimbus]

I would also want to add a very simple thing to this

The main thing people use to say the lab is from the weavers era is the "Logo depicting GMS cage"

[muted lantern]

You talking about whiteward?

[livid nimbus]

And while I will admit it does kinda look like that it is also a very generic spool which for a place being made from silk would be a very common thing 😭

Also she also is designed after a silk spool so as much as it could be depicting her cage it could depict her as ruler

[livid nimbus]

The symbol of pharloom

[edgy nebula]

topic?

[muted lantern]

Why first sinner was imprisoned

I said the weavers did it because her claim challenged their divinity

Also the runes sealing first sinner are clearly of weaver make

[edgy nebula]

i agree with this probably

[muted lantern]

i mean by "the lab" are you referring to whiteward

[craggy smelt]

but the Slab being Weaver-era doesn't entail FS being imprisoned there by Weavers
the Slab could have been built in the Weaver-era of unadorned stone, retrofitted in the Conductor-era with gilding, and then FS was thrown in it during Haunting-era

[edgy nebula]

the conductors did have access to silk runes though

[livid nimbus]

Slab, sorry lmao

[livid nimbus]

Yeah I know I just wanted to add that cuz most versions of that theory I've seen rolling around have as a main argument that damned golden silkspool

[muted lantern]

these look very much like weaver style runes to me. They look extremely similar to the ones we see chaining thk and we know it was the deepnest weavers helping with that plan

the weblike patterns running along it and such. definitely citadel era cage but we know weavers were still involved in that time

[spark valve]

It’s pretty simple process of elimination for when fs got locked up

[muted lantern]

we are more debating who than when

[craggy smelt]

the Citadel under Silk had Weavers working for her, and they used rune cages and stuff

[livid nimbus]

I get that but also since their silk abilities come from GMS couldn't we assume she can also make them?

[spark valve]

wasn't by gms because it was citadel era
wasn't conductors because weavers were dead when they took over

[muted lantern]

but the gilding is more modern citadel. We see the old style in the cradle

[edgy nebula]

whyd the weavers add giant knife platforms to the cradle

[spark valve]

they're probably silk implements of some sort they have like hooks

[muted lantern]

Probably something to do with the whole loom system set up there.

[craggy smelt]

yes? modern citadel is Conductor/Gilding era, and that's when Silk took over
earlier/Weaver era was implied to be undorned stone

[edgy nebula]

mmm

[craggy smelt]

what is implausible about this timeline:
-Atla learns the truth and convinces the Weavers to rebel
-Weavenests are built and Citadel functions are masterminded
-Weavers imprison Silk
-Weavers start up the Citadel
-Weavers eventually hand the Citadel over to the Conductors
-Its various intitutions including the Slab are established (this can happen with Weavers running it or Conductors running it)
-Silk starts to Haunt the Citadel
-Silk's Haunted hunt the Weavers and capture Atla
-Atla is thrown in the Slab for being the first to sin against Silk
-The first to abandon her god, the definition of apostasy

[stray fog]

They have the same spikes in deepnest for some reason

[edgy nebula]

why would first sinner be thrown into a cage and not bound like any other weaver

[spark valve]

she was bound she's the only one who was

[muted lantern]

Gms would bind fs yeah

[spark valve]

oh you meant by gms

I meant restraints

[craggy smelt]

citadel was caging weavers - maybe Silk did eat FS at some point and that's why she's dead
I think the burial spires are Weaver memorials, aren't they

[edgy nebula]

ah yeah mb shouldve clarified

[spark valve]

gms probably doesn't know she's there

[stray fog]

Maybe as a warning
Like "this is what will happen to you if you try to rebel"

[edgy nebula]

also, why is first sinner a memory fight? ive always been curious

[spark valve]

because she's dead

[craggy smelt]

she dead

[muted lantern]

Shes a corpse, she fights to test hornets mind to see if she's worthy of her shitty power

[edgy nebula]

but then how do we fight her

[craggy smelt]

Hornet is trying to like bind her and its a mental battle

[stray fog]

Weaver magic

[edgy nebula]

ahh

[craggy smelt]

she mentions something like that re. binding Eva

[muted lantern]

Its her lingering consiousness like the other weaver statues that talk to us. Shes just stronger

[spark valve]

not even necessarily just a strength thing, it's possible the other weavers could do that if they so chose they just didn't

[edgy nebula]

i see, cool

[spark valve]

FS since she got locked away well before the fall of the weavers may not have expended as much of her silk or whatever though

[craggy smelt]

re. refusing to bind Eva

Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity.

so they gotta fight

[muted lantern]

But yeah the main issues with this is gms would just consume first sinner if she captured her. The only reason she doesnt is because shes dead like the other weavers we find entombed by the time the citadel starts being haunted. It makes more sense for her to be locked away before gms starts waking. I doubt the conductors would dare (if the conductors even had that level of societal control before the weavers died out which i doubt.) The weavers are their gods. it seems like most of the weavers were dead or gone by the time the conductors ruled.

[stray fog]

Fs's dialogue suggests that she was planning to fight hornet since the start

[spark valve]

fs obviously wasn't locked away by gms during the haunting era lmao she's the first sinner

not the last one locked away

[livid nimbus]

Do we have instances of GMS consuming a Weaver or why are you saying they'd consume her?

[muted lantern]

Theres a whole section in the cradle talking about her hunting down and binding weavers to her.

[spark valve]

she wants them for their silk, they're all brought to the cradle, they mysteriously vanish

[muted lantern]

thats why she captures hornet too

She does the same thing hornet does to widow

[spark valve]

and to every weaver she encounters

binding weavers is a well established thing

[livid nimbus]

Oh does it says she binds them? Most of them are like "Died of old age" or smth like that I kinda always assumed they were looking for a strong Weaver and only found weak ones who died on their own

[craggy smelt]

Do we know that GMS didn't consume her?
Other Weavers were taken alive and consumed later.
FS must have been alive when they locked her up, and she died at some point - we don't know why.

I don't think the Conductors took it upon themselves to capture her, I think she was taken during the Haunting, so ultimately by Silk's will.
And the First Sinner because she was Atla, the one who discovered the truth about the Weavers that led them to rebel. She was the first one to truly turn against their god.

[muted lantern]

Binding doesnt leave a corpse.

Otherwise widow would leave one. and all the corpses we bind vanish.

[craggy smelt]

hmm, that's true

[muted lantern]

She died before the haunting like all the other mummified weavers.

the only possible options are the conductors or the weavers. Conductors i very much doubt. And first sinners discovery is a direct challenge to the weavers notion of divinity.

its less likely she was going to give the information away, more that the weavers were furious for suggesting they werent truly divine.

also by the time the conductors were really in power the weavers were already dead or dying. the rune harp saying the burden is passed is called "the last words of the weavers"

[craggy smelt]

well, even given the question of why Silk didn't bind her if her forces captured her

the alternative entails that
-Atla and the Weavers rebelled due to general discontent
-did all the Weavenest/Citadel stuff
-got the Citadel up and running and exploiting bugs
-then Atla found out the truth, started talking about it, and the other Weavers turned on her
-the Weavers chose to imprison her in the Slab instead of a Weavenest far away from the Citadel

I don't know why they would feel compelled to bind her unless she was interfering with the Citadel she herself masterminded by trying to reveal the truth to its bugs

you'd think she'd have something to say about her sisters turning on her... all her dialogue is about the truth and Silk

hrm... did Silk start binding the Weavers right away, or did she do that to acquire their silk to sustain Silkborn like Lace?

[muted lantern]

"Cursed to know...
The sin... the truth..." Knowing the truth was her sin

also her dialogue is a ton about rage. I imagine being betrayed by your family would do that to a person

[craggy smelt]

all that would apply to either Silk or the Weavers, they were all family
But she explicitly mentions Silk, the truth that she lied
"Cursed by Silk!
Cursed with Silk!"

[muted lantern]

Yes but the fact that knowing that the sin and the truth are said as if they are the same thing, implies the truth is the sin for which she was punished imo

But also its still the matter of if not the weavers, then who?

There is no reason if she was still alive during the haunting that gms wouldn't bind her

[craggy smelt]

well that was my question earlier: did Silk start binding the Weavers right away, or did she do that to acquire their silk to sustain Silkborn like Lace?
(why is she binding them, in fact? I don't know that we're ever told in-game...)

maybe she caught FS before she made up her mind to start binding them

FS mentions she was 'forgotten'

[muted lantern]

revenge for betrayal i imagine. and to increase her power. in the cut ending we see her range is increased drastically by consuming hornet.

[craggy smelt]

well, Silk has weird thoughts about her progeny, maybe she didn't make up her mind about what to do with FS before she died

[muted lantern]

Considering gms hunted down even like 1/8th weavers from across the world don't you think it would be a little ridiculous for the full blooded one right next to her to slip her mind?

[craggy smelt]

yeah true, though I think my subsequent thought is more reasonable
#sk-lore message

a mother unsure of what to do with her first rebellious child, until it was too late

[muted lantern]

The only weaver to be spared by gms seems to be widow who was likely punished for remaining loyal to gms

[muted lantern]

I mean considering sinner seems to be the one who hates her most fervently i think the choice would be easier than the other weavers imo

[dire lynx]

also worth adding that widow calls herself "of the first, the last" in the cradle memory. every other full weaver is dead by some point before gms has awoken

Our mother... true...
Our light divine...
Wake... Wake... Wake...
Glory to you...
Devotion to you...
Spin... Bind... Punish...
Of the first... the last...
We hear you!

[craggy smelt]

yes, though Silk doesn't consider herself to have awoken yet by the time Hornet arrives
"Come child, witness our waking."
"Heart of the Haunting, long lulled to slumber and desperate to wake."
etc.

[edgy nebula]

gms old heart theory

[muted lantern]

Do we know if the weavers in hallownest lived longer than the weavers in pharloom? i think theres some weaver text referring to their silk running thin at some point, maybe they die of old age when they run out of silk since one of it's properties is prolonging life. maybe the pharloom weavers died first because they used more of their silk. I partly think this is it would explain why widow outlived them all

is there any chance any of the hallownest weavers are still alive?

[craggy smelt]

there's mention of them suffering from age, I think the theory is that their silk wears out, I'm not sure what that itself is based on though

at least one was alive in Hallownest by the events of the first game (you can see her!)

[spark valve]

there probably aren't any first gen weavers other than widow alive anywhere given that all the cradle ones are part weavers last of their lines

[dire lynx]

this is my hypothesis on weaver aging and why widow is still alive

[craggy smelt]

widow is pretty spry...

[dire lynx]

they can drain their own life for magic

essentially

[muted lantern]

i just still have hope ig because the one we see in the last game. I wonder how long its been since then tho

[craggy smelt]

a trillion years

also who knows if that Weaver was full-blooded or not

[stray fog]

Hollow knight retconsong

[craggy smelt]

(who knows how the deepnest weavers did it, with all those lil weavers...)

also would the Weaver's Den be 'Weavenest Herrah', or could we still find that somewhere in Pharloom...!?

[dire lynx]

the little weavers may have been honourary weavers, ive suggested this before and seen others mention it

[stray fog]

It doesn't look like weavenest architecture

[muted lantern]

It would be kinda peak if it got revealed herrah changed her name when becoming queen of deepnest, and her old name was cindril. Not probably gonna be the case at all tho

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-writing-fire-his-writing-is-fire-is-this-fire-hold-up-gif-15400153686296022809

[craggy smelt]

well, they were refugees making do with local materials

[dire lynx]

the original denizens of deepnest seem to have took quite kindly to weaver culture with characters like midwife and also the stalking devouts adopting their split mask stylr

[craggy smelt]

it's a fun thought

weaver fanboys

or fangirls

[dire lynx]

moreso, you have passed some kind of right and we now see you as one of us

could easily be a deephunter under that bobblehead lol

[edgy nebula]

"oh, my last name? it's herrah "the beast" cindril"

[muted lantern]

"Hornet, i remember you're racisms" -dashmaster

[craggy smelt]

oh no

[craggy smelt]

"I come from a long line of racists." -Hornet

[muted lantern]

someone needs to make the "Human, i remember you're genocides" meme but replace sans with dashmaster

wait i just realized i have free will and can do this myself

[edgy nebula]

"hornet.. i remember you're cheating in the races..." - swift but evil

[craggy smelt]

huh... that makes me wonder what an evil Sprintmaster would constitute...

would they be really slow, or more like a Dick Dastardly type who sabotages other runners

[stray fog]

Hornet is the evil sprintmaster

[craggy smelt]

mindblown twice in one night

[fickle basin]

Idk why my brother was saying apparently in weaver queen ending hornet is cruel

I dont think so though

[robust wagon]

How would she not be cruel in that ending?

[timber pond]

I mean if you look at it like: hornet doesn't care about the pilgrims suffering and goes "lmao nah ,idc im going to go kill this wench hunting me " then yeah its pretty cruel.

[craggy smelt]

hornet just uses all her new arms to give everybody hugs

[sterile pewter]

Is there a canon reason for lace to be thick?

[muted lantern]

her design is based on old fencing uniforms, where they often wore poofy pants.

this kinda stuff

and her color scheme is reminiscent of more modern fencing uniforms

As shes a fencer and all that

[sterile pewter]

Makes sense

[viscid ridge]

I think she would be cruell, but not by her own choice, but by her instinct to control and dominate lesser bugs, as said by her conversation with the Caretaker and mask maker.

From Hornets thoughts on the matter, i don't think its a preferred outcome for her or pharloom

[dire lynx]

not thick, poofy clothes

[muted lantern]

i think this image is the perfect demonstation of what its based on, legswise at least. she also seems to have shoulder padding like her mother.

[stray gulch]

guys
is hornet cannonically racist?

[muted lantern]

I don't think the devs intended for her to be, people call her racist because the slabfly journal entries come off that way, but the entries were probably meant to be a joke about hornet being pissed about being kidnapped and hating the flies for being smelly, but the entries come off as in poor taste and unintentionaly make hornet sound like a terrible person.

[stray gulch]

silk song

[craggy smelt]

or the joke is that they are flies and she is a spider

spiders and flies don't get along

(it's hilarious)

[muted lantern]

Regardless she doesnt seem to follow up on the fucked up things she says about wanting the species wiped out, so it seems to have been a spur of the moment thing venting in her private journal, still not good, but her actions toward broodling show at least a change of heart since then.

The flies thing was likely just a joke in poor taste, crossed with trying to show hornets anger at the slab situation she ended up in, which she has a right to be angry about. Its just some of those journal lines go over the line and make her sound REALLY evil

[wet walrus]

Today we are going to answer one simple question

Does Gms reproduce like pale chad?

If so how can she?

[dull moss]

She hasn’t birthed any children. The Weavers are uplifted normal bugs and she wove Phantom and Lace out of Silk

[wet walrus]

So she can only do parthenogenesis

Like Unn and The Radiance

[dire lynx]

yes

[autumn umbra]

maybe she can have biological children we don't know. she just didn't do it

[low oracle]

No

[neat sage]

Lace is made of silk, no? So no clothes.

[muted lantern]

It's more of her design is meant to resemble historical poofy fencer pants. Besides it may well be clothes since we know gms has a black body underneath her white exterior, lace may well be the same.

[rustic thunder]

she's really distasteful of the flies in the slab

even once learning and understanding that they too are prisoner as much as guard, she does not seem to care

she even slanders the little ones 🥴

[rose hollow]

What if lace is clothing

Since shes made of silk

You could just pop her like a baloon and wear her?

Not in the 69 way i mean

Just like straight up wear her like clothing

[maiden meteor]

and then she just chats normally with new broodmother like she isn’t holding genocidal fantasies about flies 😭

honestly Hornet’s attitude towards flies and then how she acts with new broodmother doesn’t really make much sense

[rose hollow]

The fact she murders broodmother then just leaves the broodling alone makes zero sense

[abstract wyvern]

Dont forget about hornets long lost step brother silksong who invaded the hive and pretended to be her brother

[finite wind]

She also doesn't have an issue with killing the baby judges

[old jetty]

Hornet spends two hours playing flea juggle
Hornet also kills babies remorselessly

[low oracle]

Broodling isn't part of their Order, at least she doesn't have to be. If Hornet stops the citadel before Broodling grows up, the slabflies are freed from their prison of a mind.

The baby judges being killed makes sense, since it indirectly prevents any more pilgrims from being slain in the blasted steps.

[maiden meteor]

It’s just that we don’t really see Hornet expressing any will to “free” flies

all of fly entries boil down to “I hate you and hope you and your entire extended family dies horribly”

[low oracle]

She certainly would rather have them free, than have them being imprisoned by their own mind, thinking they have to serve the citadel.
In my opinion, Broodling shows this very well. And after the events of Act3 ending, I assume the slabflies can have a new beginning (where they also wash).

[low oracle]

Not really. "With this one killed, I hope to have put an end to their distasteful order." should be understood as an attack on their duty, not their species. There are other journal entries that may be understood otherwise, but that is what I go by.

Critisizing and disliking their duty is completely reasonable, as they torture everyone even themselves. They don't wash and half their species is starving. Furthermore, their home can be compared to the citadel if it was dumped in the void see and bashed in with several boulders. Act3 citadel is more comfortable than that place.

[sweet roost]

Who is Trobbio?

[edgy nebula]

random flamboyant bug wanting to raise pharloom from its slumber using a deadly performance

[sweet roost]

So, he isn't at all important?

[edgy nebula]

not really

[sweet roost]

Okay.

[low oracle]

A diva butterfly with depression.

[wet walrus]

How does the knight bring the void all the way to the peak of pantheon of hallownest against absrad?
Like I can understand him doing it in dream no more but this one makes no sense

Absrad is no longer inside the hollow vessel

How can tk even bring the void there

[low oracle]

The dream realm isn't a space at any location, it is at all locations ever. The space between reality and soul (or whatever the description was) has no limits.

[wet walrus]

Real question is how did he bring the void all the way to dream realm

We know he brings void higher and higher using voidheart against rad

[low oracle]

Voidheart can probably summon it. Otherwise you could also ask "How are the Radiance and the void [HB] ancient foes?" Perhaps void can easily enter the dream realm, explaining their implied battles.

Gotta go now, bye!

[wet walrus]

Bye

[wet walrus]

I believe it is because the Radiance is the strongest hb. Not only hallownest but all of the bugverse. The void is the darkness that opposes the light of hbs so I believe she antagonizes the void because she is strong enough to even think about it. Thats unlike other hbs she attacked pretty casually in a weakened state sealed inside. She destroyed PK's kingdom as a whole, she separated the mosskin from unn making her weaker, she threatened wl with traitors. And if we take godseekers claim once again we can tell no being other than the void could ever come close to rad.

[autumn umbra]

I still think she's a local god. the Haunting seems to be on the level of the Infection for example. and with GMS awake maybe even more powerful

she's the God of Gods bc Godseeker only knows the gods of the Land of Storms and the Gods in Hallownest. doesn't say anything about Gods elsewhere

[crystal marsh]

Radiance isn't the strongest HB known, that distinction goes to Lord of Shades (or Void Given Focus in Godhome)

[finite wind]

With the same argument you used before, those babies wouldn't turn into judges if she stops the citadel before they grow

[wet walrus]

Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest...

Which implies she was also in Pharloom

[wet walrus]

I doubt they are even close. The haunting was indirectly caused by the conductors. The Infection however is the physical manifestation of the radiance (while in a weakened and trapped state) that collectively punished all of hallownest by rad directly.

[maiden meteor]

I think it's hard to powerscale HBs cause their power varies and also depends on conditions

like Rad was very angry and basically put her all into the infection

and GMS managed to put up against void to protect Lace

[autumn umbra]

ppl in this world tend to assume what they see is all there is

[wet walrus]

Not really powerscaling here. There is no math or research in question. It is simply about the lore itself. The godseeker says Hallownest has the true strongest gods. Implying he has went to other bug kingdoms.

[maiden meteor]

GMS also presumably doesn't need silk to haunt someone, it's just much easier to do so with it

[wet walrus]

That was only the case with Pk. Pretentious bug thinks he has the last kingdom.
There is no retcon or a piece of information that disproves anything godseeker said yet.

[autumn umbra]

hmm okie

I hope you know this is one of those times you have all the evidence but the other person will keep believing the same thing. me being the hardheaded person in this case

[wet walrus]

She is a pale being and the original source of silk which is a form of soul. The same thing that makes any pale being live forever and gave soul scholars everlasting lives for a while.

[maiden meteor]

I think infection is the way it is cause Rad's basically on rage adrenaline

[autumn umbra]

isn't the Nightmare Heart more universal? being the center of a dimension

also W name I love PK. bring civilization kill the moth

[wet walrus]

True but the radiance was literally trapped inside a hollow vessel at the time and implied to be in a weakened state outside of godhomel

[wet walrus]

Killing deepnest is a bigger priority

[maiden meteor]

Well, infection is kinda chill at first

it's when seals falter it began grow rapidly

I think it's hard to tell who's the strongest because we don't really meet any of HBs in their "normal" state

for all we know White Lady could've had some crazy feats before she bounded herself

like AbsRad def would be the strongest but it's because she has Godseekers focus boost

[gentle aspen]

No it doesn’t

She’s referencing her old gods

It also isn’t implied she went to pharloom at all

she’s also clearly being a biased party as she doesn’t consider the knight a god or strong until they get to p5

[whole holly]

does anyone think Godseeker's will return in Silksong?

[vapid moat]

Unless they come up with a new form of godhome then probably

[whole holly]

i just think they will come up with new form of godhome, most likely

[vapid moat]

I mean the godseeker is already connected with the ever bloom through the delicate flower ending so they could do something with that

[whole holly]

maybe they will, we never know, but they are trying their best to address every ending

[vapid moat]

That is true so we really can’t know, also wonder if whatever version of godhome will have its own endings and what they could even be

[craggy smelt]

I would like a hall of bosses, but if I could only have one DLC have extra endings, I'd tie it to City of Steel

a hall of bosses would be pretty easy to tie to something like Red Memory/Silkspace

just Hornet re-visit her own memories for reflection, training, etc.

don't see a need for an ending connected to a concept like that though

[rancid glen]

im trying to get to the pantheons but i cant

[shy sorrel]

Why does oil make the needle stronger?

[rancid glen]

it makes the needle sharper like the nail [word of the day GARAMA]

[craggy smelt]

it's magic oil

[shy sorrel]

Oh

[shy sorrel]

How

[fleet sparrow]

I think Unn is the weakest higher being

My goat fell under zero pressure from the Pale King🥀

[vapid moat]

I assume we’ll get an upgraded GMS so I’m not sure that would work

Also would be really boring lore wise

[craggy smelt]

Hornet uses her imaaaaagination~!

and imagines bosses being stronger as an added test

[modest cobalt]

[finite wind]

Can anyone please tell me why is groal smiling if Bilewater supposedly hates weavers

[sinful nimbus]

Groal hates the Citadel in general and he might not even be able to identify Hornet as a weaver

[finite wind]

That still doesn't answer why he's smiling while killing an intruder, specially one that's been killing your people

[sinful nimbus]

He's insane

Bad guys taking glee in killing their enemies doesn't seem that weird to me idk

[finite wind]

If they've killed their people they wouldn't be smiling like that unless they were actual bad people which I don't think groal is

He's just mad his home is a dumpster

Or at least that's how I interpret it from the lore tablets

Unless everyone else is mad but groal doesn't gaf

But why would he go all the way to eat souls to get fat

Idk

[sinful nimbus]

He's also violent to like anyone who enters Bilewater Citadel or not so yeah he's kinda evil

[tacit crown]

Say do the silkspeed anklets Stab hornet's Legs to steal silk to make her go faster? or do they fit on to her feet and help her go fast that way? asking here to get something of an answer.

[finite wind]

He has some evil lines but then he says the power is ours making it sound like he's not doing it for selfish issues idk

[sinful nimbus]

Then what's he doing it for

[finite wind]

And the last line is trying to justify his actions with a good reason

[finite wind]

Idk, it's all speculative but I think he was preparing to take over eventually?

Like Bilewater is a well protected place

I don't think he needs to do much, the place kind of protects itself

[sinful nimbus]

There are quite a few strung up corpses

Stilkin are literally just killing people cuz they want revenge

[finite wind]

Well yeah, that's not entirely evil

[finite wind]

I think it's to intimidate

[sinful nimbus]

It kinda is

[finite wind]

Sure, but not the "hahaha I'm so bad!" Kind of evil

More like the mad kind of evil

[sinful nimbus]

All of their lore tablets are about how much hatred they have in their hearts

And Groal is a tyrant in his needolin dialogue

They have a sympathetic reason for it but they're pretty clearly insane and evil

[finite wind]

I agree with you on that, but again, the backstory makes it seem like the "revenge" evilness and not the evil because they enjoy being evil

Hence why it confuses me that groal is happy

It could just be that the expression looked better on him than STH else and that it fits with the whole area being kind of unfair

[sinful nimbus]

I mean the fact that he smiles does indicate that he does. We're kinda working backwards with the assumption that he's not the kind to delight in it

It can be true that he's doing it out of revenge and true that he's kinda sadistic

[finite wind]

Yes, that's why it's confusing to me, since the only elements to me that show that he is sadistic is that smile only... And well, now those 2 pieces of needolin dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

That's kinda as far as characterization goes for bosses without standard dialogue tbf

[limpid summit]

Most regular bosses don’t recognize Hornet as a Weaver

Crawfather is one of the only ones who does

And they’ve all been watching her

[sinful nimbus]

The spinderous spiderling 🔥 🔥 🔥 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

[limpid summit]

I like that the wiki added that little tidbit about spinderous

[foggy fractal]

I think its like uhhh devious, dubious, mischeavious

[finite wind]

I interpret it as sneaky

Wait you're andy

Hey guys

[foggy fractal]

hey guys

[edgy nebula]

i dont think this has to mean that he knows she's a weaver

[marble oasis]

Weavers aren’t the only spiders

[limpid summit]

In the context of SS it’s synonymous though

Sister spider

We don’t see any non weaver spiders right

[marble oasis]

Pharlids

[edgy nebula]

giant drapemites have 8 legs so id count them, the spirit spider guy in the spirits glade, and the deephunters are also considered spiders iirc

[crystal marsh]

what is it

[edgy nebula]

pretty likely but never confirmed

[marble oasis]

maybe

There are no present arguments for her being someone else no

All the current ideas point to her being Atla or unnamed

[proud gulch]

Lads I have a question, and I think you can guess what it is.

[blissful harbor]

one is a beak the other is a nose/trunk

[proud gulch]

True.

[signal field]

she could technically be askar (that’s the internal name for the mt fay weavenest) but that’s a bit of a reach tbh, it would be more likely if Askar was named in-game and the Alta weaver effigy wasn’t right next to FS

[limpid summit]

Those are arachnids

Didn’t they teach you anything in Australia school

I’ve never seen a convincing argument that FS is anything other than Atla

And though it’s obv not confirmed I p much believe it

[signal field]

Okay from a narrative/game perspective if the devs didn’t want to imply Alta was FS why would they put her weaver effigy there

[stray fog]

Which weaver was atla?

Weaver of the ___?

[edgy nebula]

weaver of time

[signal field]

every other weaver effigy is used to imply it belonged to the weaver of that area I don’t see why it would suddenly be different for her

[stray fog]

I wonder what that means

Weaver of time

[blissful harbor]

it means shes the first weaver created

[drifting meteor]

cornifer is hornet

[edgy nebula]

craws are really cool i wish we got more of them

tc introduces all these tribes that are heavily present in these areas and never gives us more lore 😔

[signal field]

they have an entire seperate language and are like the only non-pilgrim tribe not falling into ruin because of the haunting, at least we got the court of craws to elaborate on them a little but I would have liked a bit more, craw merchant when

[stray fog]

Burning bugs are also doing pretty good

Despite the haunting

[craggy smelt]

her effigy refers to her as a keeper of history

[craggy smelt]

you gotta search it out!
like - the Craw Home probably used to belong to the order of the Pinstresses, and they took over

hence all the salvaged pins and balloons they have

[stray fog]

Makes sense

[craggy smelt]

another point in the column of her being FS, since FS discovered some ancient truth of Weaver history

[signal field]

it’s unclear if they’re a separate species or if they’re just descendants of pilgrims who broke off to worship the flame which was more what I meant

they have six legs, which is notable, but that’s not entirely out of the question for pilgrims

[marble oasis]

Is Camora the one in the Mosslands and Keelal the one in Shellwood?

[signal field]

yeah that’s what’s the placement implies

[limpid summit]

What do we think was the sin of the flies

For serious

[marble oasis]

I mean the effigies

[limpid summit]

Zor don’t say anything

[marble oasis]

What do you mean zor don’t say anything

[limpid summit]

I just

I just don’t trust you

[craggy smelt]

guess it depends on when they became bound to serve the Slab
like in what era - under the Weavers or the Conductors
if the former, then maybe the sin was being flies, because spiders are all racist

[marble oasis]

Unironically I think they were being smelly and disgusting in the Citadel and some conductor had enough of it

[signal field]

my personal hc is I don’t think they committed a sin, I think the citadel just wanted workers so it made a sin up to imprison them for

[limpid summit]

That would be peak

[marble oasis]

They have workers aplenty

[limpid summit]

I think it would have to be weaver era anyway

[marble oasis]

Everyone in the Citadel could be convinced to work for any reason

[limpid summit]

First of all it works thematically

Spiders flies

[signal field]

I mean the flies actually aren’t filthy by nature they actually despise filth and being kept in it is basically their punishment as seen through their needolin dialogue

[craggy smelt]

yeah, and they basically assume their workers are guilty of sins even when they don't confess to any

[limpid summit]

But idk if that was like the in universe idea

[marble oasis]

broodmother room

[limpid summit]

Those dynamics aren’t specifically there in game right

Or am I tripping

[signal field]

do you think broodmother is the natural state for a fly

[marble oasis]

No

[limpid summit]

Eggy eggy

[marble oasis]

They have to have some kind of spawner

[marble oasis]

this was to apple

[signal field]

yeah but she is very explicitly grown in a unnatural way the flies likely reproduce like normal bugs outside of all the fucked up citadel shit

[edgy nebula]

flies probably naturally stink slightly as they make weird globs of hairy mass, but a large part of the stink is probably them being kept in said filth

[limpid summit]

I headcanoned that the flies were disciples of FS and after she was imprisoned the Weavers turned their fury on them

[edgy nebula]

thatd be cool

[limpid summit]

Not only does this sort of require a specific timeframe for her imprisonment but I lowkey think I had a dream about it

And that’s why I believe it

So grain of salt

[edgy nebula]

i think it's possible they killed someone or something

[marble oasis]

I wonder if centuries of being told you’re part of a naturally filthy and unclean caste would give you some sort of complex towards being a fly

[limpid summit]

Dirty chud complex