sk-lore

[robust wagon]

Sure, but TK isn't the shade lord, all of the vessel are

[unreal estuary]

They can give minds to wild creatures, and ones that add healing properties (the ones we pick up in game) were made using Pale Ore, some bugs are born with Masks and others either get one from a Mask Maker or are just like wild animals

Then again there's probably some wild bugs in these kingdoms who do have masks they just don't give the kinds of minds that other bugs have

[prime mantle]

eh sister of the void could be dnm and etv simultaneously, thats why shade lord just flashes there instead of appearing all the way, its a way to keep the ending of hk vague

i still think dnm ghost beats stv hornet tho

[bleak maple]

that's weird cuz like
Silksong have wild animals with masks
and characters like Grindle or Garmond who dosent have a mask

[robust wagon]

Why's that?

[sick sequoia]

I think DNM Ghost beats Hornet and ETV Ghost stomps her

[robust wagon]

Well Ghost might not even be a singular entity by the end of ETV

[unreal estuary]

Well but something that's vaguely ambiguous is what constitutes as a "mask", for all we know mask could be a synonym for face and in fact Hallownest's Mask Maker seems to use them that way

[prime mantle]

because sotv hornet hasn't actually grown stronger than she was in act 2 besides pale nail, if we were having a god competition we'd be matching weaver queen against shade lord, which has no point because we have no idea what weaver queen can do

[unreal estuary]

But yeah like I said there's probably masks on wild bugs that don't give minds the same way other masks do, and the Mask Maker makes masks for bugs born either without masks or who lost their minds in the Wastelands

[robust wagon]

You do get another mask shard in act 3

[prime mantle]

we know voidheart ghost can at least lead the void if not ruling it entirely, and he has defeated the radiance

[unreal estuary]

but it's all very vague so I could be completely wrong

[sick sequoia]

The shade lord may not be a single entity but Ghost does lead it, most likely

[robust wagon]

I doubt TK rules the entire void, because of what we see in SOTV

[prime mantle]

feel free to correct me but id say these are minutae

[robust wagon]

What does growing stronger (in this sense) even mean?

[prime mantle]

well, getting a mask shard is growth, but hornet is already a goddess, getting slightly more health doesn't really mean much storywise. like, i doubt hornet would be limited to just one spell until sitting down either

[sick sequoia]

Technically she's a demigod

[prime mantle]

you can defeat the game with no upgrades

[robust wagon]

Well story wise she does slay the old hearts of Pharloom

[prime mantle]

im of the thought that there is no distinction in hk

[sick sequoia]

I only say that because of her origins, maybe it doesn't matter

[robust wagon]

I think the idea is that she's just a lesser god

[sick sequoia]

Meanwhile the knight just is a god

[robust wagon]

Well maybe not, bc of the influence of the void

[prime mantle]

they're weaker than gms, even if karmelita might supposedly rival her skills. these fights show us that hornet is really strong, but i dont think they're relevant if we are trying to determine her true power. maybe if she could eat them instead of getting a flower things would be different

[prime mantle]

well, lesser god is a god

[sick sequoia]

True, but the knight's origins compared to hers make it inherently stronger

[prime mantle]

not inherently, hornet kind of stomps any vessel besides two. he worked for it

[robust wagon]

Getting back to the point at hand, you'd say that Hornet grows less in act 3 than TK in which timeframe? Getting the kingsoul & voidheart?

[prime mantle]

i think getting the voidheart is a very significant growth

[robust wagon]

Okay I can see that

[prime mantle]

unless hornet absorbs gms she just gets significantly stronger, she doesn't gain influence over a whole "divine" substance

[robust wagon]

I was just asking for clarification lol

[prime mantle]

no im happy to explain dw

[robust wagon]

Okay and also I really don't think TK gains control over all the void, because of what we see in SOTV

[prime mantle]

i dont think he necessarily needs to, what we see in both games with the voidheart is already impressive

[robust wagon]

I can agree with that, it was just that one point I had contention with

[sick sequoia]

Based on what both sides have given, I think that it's definitely close, but TK beats her out because of more growth and a tougher shell

[prime mantle]

i'd argue its possible the tendrils are like siblings with their own naturesand that's why he doesn't directly control them and needs to destroy them but that's a different conversation

i think silksong hornet might beat like, idk, hollow knight or sealed siblings ghost

but in this circumstance by the time she's in pharloom ghost is already being savaged by the radiance so

[robust wagon]

In lore, sure

[sick sequoia]

My brother in christ this is the lore channel

[gentle aspen]

?

She would simply be called a god then

[prime mantle]

when we get the shade lord boss fight in the fourth dlc and hornet dons the architect crest and throws a hundred tacks at ghost:

[robust wagon]

Yeah

[robust wagon]

Ik ik

[gentle aspen]

she’s not a higher being

[robust wagon]

She's definitely at least half

[sick sequoia]

She is by default because of the pale king

[gentle aspen]

that’s not a thing

she has the bloodline sure but the way it works in HK you can’t be “half higher being”

[sick sequoia]

Like, she part higher (kind of ) being because of the pale king

[vivid kernel]

yo

what are we doing

[sick sequoia]

But she's not a higher being, just very strong despite not being one

[vivid kernel]

hmm

who

[gentle aspen]

Hornet would only be considered a higher being post Weaver Queen ending

[vivid kernel]

true but she could be half higher being

[robust wagon]

That's what I'm saying

[gentle aspen]

#sk-lore message

[robust wagon]

Hornet

[vivid kernel]

hmm

[vivid kernel]

is hollow knight a higher being

?

[gentle aspen]

No

[sick sequoia]

Like, the knight we play as or the hollow knight?

[vivid kernel]

let say both

[gentle aspen]

The knight’s only a higher being with void heart

[vivid kernel]

hmm

[sick sequoia]

Which, if Dream No More is canon, means that by Silksong, it absolutely is

[robust wagon]

Why do you think so?

[gentle aspen]

otherwise they are in the same situation as hornet being powerful

[gentle aspen]

because they’re confirmed to be one with void heart

[vivid kernel]

we will know more in the DLC i think it will be like we will get to know more about higher beings

[sick sequoia]

Put it this way, if the knight wasn't a higher being with the void heart then it wouldn't have been able to get to and kill the Radiance

[robust wagon]

Where?

[random harbor]

Bardoon - General - Reacting to Void Heart

Ohhhmmmm... Tiny thing... It evolves beyond that Wyrm. Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.

@kingoclowns used /npcs misc name: Bardoon category: General dialogue: Reacting to Void Heart

[robust wagon]

Why not?

[robust wagon]

I don't see 'higher being' in there

[gentle aspen]

😐

[sick sequoia]

Bruh...

[robust wagon]

😝

[gentle aspen]

they’re saying we evolved past a higher being

and that we could defeat nature (the radiance)

That’s confirmation

[robust wagon]

I take that to mean that it evolves past PK in that sense that it does something the PK couldn't, that is, command (at least a portion of) the void

It's up to interpretation anyway

[wet walrus]

So the entire plot of silksong is weavers fucking around and finding out

[robust wagon]

And then all the stuff with the citadel

[wet walrus]

Not a pale being but definitely stronger regardless. The Knight embodies void and the darkness of the void is the opposite of the light of higher beings.

[robust wagon]

Yes! That's an idea I've kinda had as a headcanon for a while - that the void is opposed to all higher beings, like the Shade Lord would be something like a lower being, if you will (not lower as in weaker than higher beings, but lower as in opposite to them). There really isn't any evidence I've found for that idea, it's just a neat one I like to think about

[sick sequoia]

That’s…

…Actually kind of a cool head canon that I will be potentially adopting

[robust wagon]

Good to hear :D

[sick sequoia]

I like how all of this stemmed from arguing if Hornet is stronger than the knight

[robust wagon]

Lmao I love this server, it can be so random sometimes

[sick sequoia]

This community in a nutshell lmaooo

We just went from arguing and now we’re talking about head canons, this community is awesome

[robust wagon]

Peak fandom 🔥

[hidden crater]

the same thing can apply to mossbag

[robust wagon]

He doesn't post often, but yeah

[hidden crater]

he could be talking about something mad serious and the next second hes saying something like "did phantom start WW2?"

[graceful grail]

A Pale Being is one that is highly associated with soul.

Thats why GMS and PK are both pale beings, despite them not being directly related.

Being “pale” isnt a power scaling thing, its a trait.

[wet walrus]

Where did I say Pale beings are stronger versions of higher beings?

Aren't pale beings like

"god-kings"

Higher beings who rule a land

[limpid summit]

Some people have this outlook but I don’t think Bardoon’s dialogue paints that as the case

[graceful grail]

Higher beings arent necessarily rulers. But they are bugs or plants mostly which are Substantually more intelligent and powerful or completely on a nother level than the common bug.

[limpid summit]

Pale King and Rad are juxtaposed in their attempts at unity - PK offers it through intelligence at the cost of true homogeneity, while Rad does the opposite

TK goes beyond both by uniting the Void

It is the ultimate being of unity

[wet walrus]

Are the rulers among higher beings considered pale beings?

[limpid summit]

And said unity is described as a strength

It’s not just a vague idea of something PK wouldn’t do it’s something that enables them to perhaps defeat nature

That’s HB status right there

[robust wagon]

I mean there aren't any pale beings that aren't rulers, so... maybe?

[wet walrus]

PK couldn't defeat nature I think. That's why he couldn't create an eternal kingdom and had to grief with the inevitable doom of hallownest

[limpid summit]

He couldn’t defeat nature no

Rad is described as nature but nature is also what leads her to fall

Void is what denies nature

[whole holly]

the Knight is Higher Being because it evolves beyond wyrm and unites the void, that's as close as you can get but Void given Focus is definitely a Higher being

[robust wagon]

Who's to say that void can even be a higher being? It's just hype moments and aura lol

[limpid summit]

Void isn’t

But TK as the unifier is

[wet walrus]

Or what if the void is fulfilling the law of nature? Who knows maybe another game will come out and will defy the void. Nothing really lasts forever in the end.

[limpid summit]

PK calls the void a force that could deny Time

[robust wagon]

Nothing built lasts forever 🔥

[limpid summit]

Who knows if it’ll ever be destroyed

[whole holly]

Higher Beings are fathomless beings that are above every other beings, The Knight Fulfills that status, even if Void isn't higher being

[wet walrus]

But the Knight is still a being of void that opposes beings of light who are the higher beings.

[robust wagon]

I take that Bardoon line abt TK rising past the PK as him saying that they're doing something the PK couldn't; uniting (at least part of) the void. Though that's just my interpretation

[wet walrus]

Thats why pk dumped the egg to the void in the first place

To turn them into vessels who are beings of void

[limpid summit]

Pk never wanted to unite the void though

He harnessed it for his own aims

And Bardoon has no knowledge of the Vessel project

He’s just comparing TK and PK

[robust wagon]

Harnessing then, not uniting

[limpid summit]

Well harnessing in both ways

He placed harness upon it

TK doesn’t do that

And Bardoon would have no way of knowing what PK did with Void mechanically

[whole holly]

not every Higher Being has to be Being of Light, Radiance is being of Light sure, but not necessarily the Unn and Nightmare Heart, plus word light is vague since PK and Wl are related to Soul while Radiance is related to Essence

[limpid summit]

He’s speaking to TK’s qualities

They’ve evolved beyond PK in a sense beyond what he mechanically achieved

[robust wagon]

I'd have to disagree with that interpretation, but you're welcome to have your own opinion on the matter

[whole holly]

that interpretation isn't unreasonable but Knight evolving beyond a higher being also means he becomes one

[robust wagon]

Not necessarily

[whole holly]

there are other arguments why The Knight is higher being, this is also a good one

[blissful harbor]

i mean, if the definition of a HB is to exist above all others
and youre now above one

[robust wagon]

If you wanna talk about this, then go ahead

[limpid summit]

Fair

Ghost of Hallownest, you possess the strength to enact an end of your choosing. Would you supplant our birth-cursed sibling, or would you transcend it?

Everyone treats TK differently upon getting VH

That’s not concrete HB evidence but the Bardoon dialogue pretty much is

It’s not about PK’s Void use because Bardoon doesn’t mention that ever

[whole holly]

if Higher Beings exist above all others and are fathomless, The Knight meets both criteria and also Godseeker and Bardoon imply that after we evolve beyond a wyrm and become God of Gods(this is after defeating radiance so we are above Radiance in every way)

[limpid summit]

He mentions PK’s attempt at external order and unity

[robust wagon]

I thought we were talking about TK and not SL? (Shade lord)

[blissful harbor]

they’re the same being

like Rad and Absrad

[robust wagon]

The other vessels are in there too!

That's my interpretation anyway

[whole holly]

they are same being though, Void Given Form and Void Given Focus are both achieved by Knight's Void Heart, it suggests the Knight's potential

[blissful harbor]

the other siblings might be mixed into the whole thing, but TK is still at the head either way

[robust wagon]

I mean sure but SL isn't just TK

[whole holly]

it is still The Knights will

[robust wagon]

But it's not just TK

[whole holly]

and? how is that argument, why doesn't vessels matter if they are united under The Knight's will anyways?

[robust wagon]

I'm saying they do matter? They're just as apart of the SL as TK, afaik

[limpid summit]

SL is just TK

The siblings are fragments of a lingering will but they’re kept apart from TK in DnM for two reasons

1. thematic significance
2. Godseeker focus is what gives TK the power to amass more void to itself in a short time in order to mess up Absrad

The siblings are basically void tendrils because their imprints are so weak

THK has a stronger imprint

[robust wagon]

I'm assuming this is referring to ETV not DNM?

[whole holly]

not really, sibling's shades are just void that united by The Knight's will as part of itself, but otherwise they just are fragments of Lingering wills

[limpid summit]

Both

No they’re kept apart from TK

In EtV they presumably add to its SL form

[robust wagon]

THK isn't in the SL

[limpid summit]

I know

[robust wagon]

Okay then.

[limpid summit]

I’m just saying that the siblings climbing is TK helping them along

But THK opening Rad is all THK

In EtV the Sibling climb makes less sense

First of all it’s not the final phase anymore imagine if they were just bothering you in the background

Second of all it’s more about TK alone

[robust wagon]

I gotta go to sleep now, sorry. It's been fun though!

[limpid summit]

Night!

[whole holly]

point is regardless of ending, being beyond higher being makes you one

[wet walrus]

I mean thats true however they are still beings of light. Rad is related to essance cuz she is a dream deity. Pk and wl are related to soul because they are pale beings.

And they also emit light. Pale King's light can still be seen even in the void from the brithplace scene.

[whole holly]

Essence, Soul and Void are just forces in Hollow Knight universe, it doesn't make sense attributing Light to every single one except the void, Essence related Higher Beings like Unn and Nightmare Heart aren't really representing the Light, White Lady isn't really representing Light too, she just looks pale

[wet walrus]

Nightmares heart emits light though nightmare flames

[blissful harbor]

PK and Rad are definitely lights, it’s mentioned multiple times
the rest of the Hbs, probably not
NMH emits fire, like light comes from it sure but atp
that’s clearly not what being a light refers to

WL is stated to have a dim glow, but again she’s never mentioned as a light in the way of Rad or PK

[whole holly]

Nightmare Heart aren't Light in same way as Radiance is and makes contrasting Lord of Shades makes it wrong

[blissful harbor]

also the whole “no blazing kin, only one light shall shine in the dark”

in reference to PK and rad

[light mauve]

The fayforn is also related to light

[blissful harbor]

is she

[wet walrus]

No higher being directly represent light either. even Radiance is both a dream deity and light deity. Pale beings represent soul, nightmare heart represent nightmares (possibly coming from nightmare flames), unn represents vegetation

[light mauve]

The small ones talk about the light

[whole holly]

Essence is fragment of light and i guess soul has a glow? but contrasting both to void as opposite of light is wrong

[gentle aspen]

are we doing this light thing again

[light mauve]

Idk

[whole holly]

she just has gleam

[wet walrus]

The void is simply void. It opposes the light of higher beings.

[whole holly]

point is that common theme of light might not be accurate because it requires homogenizing soul and essence as light, which is wrong to contrast against the void

[gentle aspen]

why would you not call essence light

it is

[light mauve]

It says gleam so brightly

[whole holly]

it is fragment of light sure, but it also makes up dreams and nightmares, and homogenizing it with soul to represent one thing that is opposite of void is wrong

[gentle aspen]

dreams are made of light as are nightmares

[whole holly]

Essence is fragment of light, dream and nightmares

[gentle aspen]

ok? I just said that

[whole holly]

not really, because others are using that point to homogenize it with soul's glow and just thinking that Light is anti-void... also this is more accurate version

[light mauve]

What about hallucinations

[whole holly]

i said that as well, in message you replied to

[gentle aspen]

Wdym “not really” that is almost verbatim what I said
I didn’t ascribe anything to soul

Void isn’t opposed to soul. Void just kills things in its general vicinity

[light mauve]

The lifeblood ones

[gentle aspen]

????

[light mauve]

In the lifeblood room in abyss in hk

There are blue dream particles

[wet walrus]

I mean it is not that complex.
Higher beings are beings of light and can be revered and worshipped for their blessings and strength.
The void is a dark entity that only represents darkness
"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."

[light mauve]

So could this be hallucinations

[gentle aspen]

????

[light mauve]

Because of overdose

[gentle aspen]

No

Its dreams

Don’t make stuff up

[light mauve]

Why blue

[whole holly]

so did i, when you first replied to me

[gentle aspen]

Because its related to lifeblood? Why are nightmares red essence

[light mauve]

So nightmares are the same as dreams?

[light mauve]

Cuz different thing

[gentle aspen]

you can’t just assert that “hallucinations” are some new subset of dreams

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t? It’s a specific kind of dream

[light mauve]

Why not? Does it have a name

I am the discoverer

[gentle aspen]

Because you just made it up

[light mauve]

I am the Christopher Columbus of hallucinations in hk

[light mauve]

Yeah but it makes sense

[gentle aspen]

It doesn’t

[whole holly]

it is oversimplifying the higher beings, unn and nightmare heart are never even referred to as light, light is attribute of radiance and pale king, white lady isn't referred to as such

[gentle aspen]

the term light is used for pk and the radiance yes
that’s mostly because they’re related to bug minds to boot

[light mauve]

How so, the knight is overdosed on lifeblood and is hallucinating? Why would we need 15 lifeblood to enter then

[gentle aspen]

They aren’t overdosed nor are they hallucinating, that’s blatantly false

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t necessarily wrong to call them lights, they just aren’t in the same way as those two

[surreal heron]

What’s the debate now

[whole holly]

yes i know

[gentle aspen]

I’m helping your point

[light mauve]

Wether the blue dreams are hallucinations because of overdose or not

I think yes

[whole holly]

that's what they don't understand though...

[gentle aspen]

the knight isn’t overdosed

Again stop claiming false information as true

[whole holly]

i am aware

[light mauve]

What’s your source

I have more proof

[gentle aspen]

you are making the claim they are and give none

If you make a claim without evidence it can be dismissed without evidence

[wet walrus]

The void isn't light though. That's what separates them. And thats why they oppose each other.

[light mauve]

Hornet can overdose, so can the knight they are siblings and in order to get into the room we need 15 lifeblood which is for sure overdose
Then we magically appear outside of the door like we never entered

What’s that if not a hallucination because of an overdose

[gentle aspen]

“Hornet can overdose, so can the knight”
That’s just false
The Knight does not get plasmified like hornet does

[spark valve]

it's entering a dream the knight even physically brings something out of it lmao

[gentle aspen]

It’s a dream there are dream particles inside of it we wake up outside like its a dream because it’s a dream

[sinful nimbus]

Same thing is also in Godhome

[gentle aspen]

The lifeblood is required because that is what locks the door

stop going “oh this is a new type of dream called a hallucination” when you have no actual proof of this

[gentle aspen]

There’s a very clear difference between hornet and the knight when they have a lot of lifeblood, you can’t claim they’re undergoing the same process

[light mauve]

Ok that’s what you believe in, I respect your opinion

But I still believe in hallucinations

[surreal heron]

The only way the Knight “gets overdosed” in the same way as Hornet is Joni’s Blessing + Hiveblood

[gentle aspen]

that’s not an opinion

[gentle aspen]

And that isn’t even overdosing, the knight can still heal

[gentle aspen]

You’re just incorrect

and again, you have no evidence. Doesn’t belong here

[light mauve]

Well you don’t respect my opinion

You are cruel

[stray fog]

Does lifeblood have any known hallucinogenic effects

[gentle aspen]

I have not insulted you a single time

I am saying you have no proof and it doesn’t belong here as the channel requires proof

[whole holly]

Soul, Essence and Void are all distinct forces

[light mauve]

I can’t theorise?

[gentle aspen]

Theories require evidence, which you have none of

so it doesn’t belong here

[light mauve]

I’m not claiming it be 100% true

[gentle aspen]

please go to another channel

[stray fog]

Isnt speculation allowed

[spark valve]

with grounds

[stray fog]

Yeah

That

[gentle aspen]

If you have actual ground ingame with some kind of evidence then yes

what they are currently doing is making up something

which isn’t allowed here

[stray fog]

Alright

[wet walrus]

There are only 2 types of dreams we know.
Dreams that are entirely imaginary like dream bosses, godhome and grimm's final ritual
Dreams that contain real physical things like White Palace, dreamers and thk's mind

[gentle aspen]

I mean any dream can contain real things

[wet walrus]

The secret lifeblood room is still a dream that contains real things

[gentle aspen]

Seer pulls a charm right out of her mind

essence is a tangible thing we can accrue

[whole holly]

closest thing is what happened with Soul Master, maybe infection causes that too but it is never stated in-game, word can be used to describe things in hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

soul master didn’t even hallucinate
he saw the radiance in his dreams and she simply lied to him

he was just tricked

[stray fog]

That still happened in a dream

[wet walrus]

I doubt it is mainly about essance. Those things are real physical stuff brought to a dream.

That's why godhome deaths count as dream deaths

Because those are minds of hallownest "gods" summoned by the "godseeker".

[light mauve]

What’s a dream gate

How do we create wormholes

Just by dreaming

[kindred ingot]

what's the topic today?

[light mauve]

Hallucinating

[kindred ingot]

dreams?

[whole holly]

what about Sly saying Esmy how much deeper do we have to go? sure game calls it infection and dreams but it can be characterized as hallucination

[kindred ingot]

we open a portal to the Dream Realm and use it to travel to another portal to the Dream Realm

[stray fog]

I thought he was lost in a memory

Or he was dreaming

Dreams are surreal sometimes

[light mauve]

Is the dream realm physical though

[whole holly]

so he was sleepwalking + dreaming?

[kindred ingot]

it's another plane of existence

[stray fog]

Not sleepwalking

[kindred ingot]

sleeptalking

[stray fog]

He was sitting in his shop, wasn't he?

[light mauve]

So the knight is omnipotent or smth. Is he multiversal level threat

[stray fog]

Yeah he would have been doing that, if he was indeed dreaming

[whole holly]

i don't think dreaming and hallucinating are mutually exclusive

[kindred ingot]

the Knight has a weapon (the Dream Nail) that is capable of accessing dreams, and it uses it to open portals to the Dream Realm

[light mauve]

Yes

[kindred ingot]

the Knight is not omnipotent

[light mauve]

But how do we appear in a place tho that’s the question

[stray fog]

Yeah
They aren't

But its still not enough evidence to believe in the life loose creature hallucination theory imo

[kindred ingot]

hold on let me open ms paint I gotta do smth

[whole holly]

what theory? there is a theory?

[wet walrus]

Anyways guys why everything gms has ever created "coincidentally" hates her?

[stray fog]

Silkshronk was theorizing that the lifeblood creature dream was the knight's hallucination

[stray fog]

They all had reasons

Gms isnt a good person

[whole holly]

oh, weird thing

[light mauve]

And I think it’s true

[kindred ingot]

pink is the Dream Realm, and yellow is the portals

[light mauve]

Maybe lifeblood corroded his memory of some void guy that was significant to the abyss

[stray fog]

Insane vfx 🔥

[kindred ingot]

I'm something of an animator myself

[light mauve]

Maybe

[wet walrus]

I mean she let first sinner rot after exposing the truth. Lace regrets being born apparently. But what she did to unite all of her daughters against her?

[graceful grail]

GMS was very manipulative but We only see her after she has has some character development.

GMS was definitely a very controlling person when she made all her children.

But by the time we see her she loves Lace enough to sacrifice herself Despite Lace literally Betraying her.

[stray fog]

The Weavers wanted freedom

[wet walrus]

Didn't they all want usurpation?

[stray fog]

Yeah that's one of the methods of gaining freedom from gms

Some Weavers fled

Some made the citadel

Some wanted a weaver queen

[wet walrus]

Thats kind of why they wanted to drag Hornet to their side. Because she is the strongest weaver being born as half beast half pale

[light mauve]

They wanted to enslave her

Or kill

[wet walrus]

I mean the weavers

[wet walrus]

I remember they had wrong ways of doing so. Like when they tried to create an artificial higher being who regrets her existence more than lace could ever do.

Another similarity is they can act in a controlling way. Which is why Herrah tells hornet to seek her own path opposing the desires of weavers.

The psychians who found immortality though silk and brought the doom early. It is like when gms created her daughters who would bring her doom eventually.

[crystal marsh]

it's not

[gentle aspen]

He’s in his memories
he’s not hallucinating he’s having memories played in his head because the infection preys on this stuff

[whole holly]

it can be both... hallucination is Perception that only seems real, and Sly's perception meets that definition

[gentle aspen]

they’re asserting that the knight was “hallucinating the lifeblood core dream” and using that term validates their thought process so no, I will not use it

[light mauve]

So

You don’t want to use the word hallucination

Just because it will make me look right?

[gentle aspen]

if that’s what you want to believe, sure.

[sick sequoia]

Okay, here’s another one; who wins between the Radiance or Grand Mother Silk?

[gentle aspen]

[spark valve]

it doesn't even validate the thought process because it establishes that things which could be considered hallucinations are just normal dreams and not whatever nonsense bullshit they're trying to come up with

[sick sequoia]

From gameplay perspectives they have similar power levels but I’m not sure on specifics

[spark valve]

they can't fight

[sick sequoia]

Trickster I think you’re losing your mind

[gentle aspen]

considering they called me rude for saying they have no evidence and that I “don’t respect their thought process” I don’t really want to engage tautologically with that entire thing

[gentle aspen]

I mean, they can’t fight each other
Rad is within the dream realm and gms is a physical entity

[sick sequoia]

I’m asking about a theoretical

[spark valve]

smart!

[sick sequoia]

Sane logic

[gentle aspen]

I mean, then the radiance?

[gentle aspen]

it took a more powerful entity to defeat them

[light mauve]

But I respected yours

You betrayed me

[light mauve]

Then the radiance

[sick sequoia]

“Betrayed me,” brother this is a lore channel

[light mauve]

He accepted my theory later though

So I forgive him

[whole holly]

I didn’t and it fits the definition

[light mauve]

So

I am right

[gentle aspen]

see why I didn’t agree

[whole holly]

Maybe not the theory, but hallucinations do fits dreams definitionally, game just calls it dreams

[light mauve]

So for distinction we can call lifeblood dreams hallucinations

Because red dreams are nightmares

Normal are dreams

And blue are hallucinations

To have a simple system

[whole holly]

I mean there have been no distinctions, but Infection has done things that look like hallucinations, I don’t know if alchemist even displays hallucinations of the sort

[spark valve]

if you're arguing sly's visions of esmy count as hallucinations that disproves hallucinations being a lifeblood thing

as does the lifeblood creature being in godhome etc

but this is obvious ragebait anyways

[swift sail]

a

[whole holly]

i never argued about hallucinations being lifeblood thing, i just am saying that Sly's perception fits the definition but comprehension devil can make anyone believe everything is ragebait....

[graceful grail]

Idk why you think Lifeblood room is a hallucination.

We already know 100% essence beings can tangibly interact with the world.

And we know that your body can psychically move in the world thru the dream world.

And you get the charm.

Gtg

[surreal heron]

Lifeblood room IS in the dream realm

[graceful grail]

TK can see the life blood beast because they have the dream nail.

Not because TK is in the dreamworld

[surreal heron]

Yeah well the wiki says so and it has good evidence so I trust it

[gentle aspen]

they are in the dream world
They wake up right after picking up the charm

also self reacting is crazy

[spark valve]

The oh so hard to miss (apparently) dreamscape of clouds:

You don’t even need to get the dream nail to go there

[graceful grail]

How come the radiance doesn’t affect white palace, even though it’s in the same dreamworld.

We know the dream world has only been split once when the nightmare realm was made. so it’s not like it’s separate from the same one radiance is in.

[jolly trail]

i dont think we can say that the dream world is one

i think the dream world could be splitted up in several realms making it seperated for each dream version or boss fight in the hk game

[prime mantle]

it likely is seperate, radi can't touch the dreamers either

[graceful grail]

I think it was white lady who said the dream world has only been split once

[prime mantle]

nor can she jump on the knight while he fights dream bosses like lost kin

[jolly trail]

but i also think that the an void entity that in enter one of the realms in the dream world then it can consume it

but im not sure and maybe it can be applied for life blood and the affection?

[prime mantle]

i'm still only half sold the lifeblood room is just a dream, it seems to be more like lost verdania

you physically enter it, i'd say that's significant

[jolly trail]

ok ok

but

[spark valve]

Physically entering dreams is a thing

[graceful grail]

Yes, and we know you can teleport using the dreamworld. Life blood beast could’ve just placed us outside the door.

[kindred ingot]

what's the topic now?

[spark valve]

And it’s questionable if you even enter the dream physically since when it collapses you just wake up outside

[prime mantle]

lv is a dream too but also physically exists, was my point

[surreal heron]

Lifeblood room being a dream

[prime mantle]

and i guess white palace to a degree, too

[kindred ingot]

yeah, it is

[spark valve]

lv is just a memory

[prime mantle]

verdania is a real place, it's just ruined

[kindred ingot]

what's lv?

oh, Lost Verdania?

[surreal heron]

We’re evolving

[spark valve]

lost verdania is a memory of verdania not actual verdania

[surreal heron]

Hence the name, LOST

[kindred ingot]

White Palace is a physical place that got moved to the Dream Realm

idk how tho

[graceful grail]

Yes, and it’s not confirmed whether green prince is tampering with it to.

[surreal heron]

Black Magic

[prime mantle]

i'm calling the lifeblood room a room like lost verdania

[graceful grail]

Probably one of PK‘s machines.

[kindred ingot]

he probably is

[spark valve]

lost verdania and the lifeblood area are both dreams

[kindred ingot]

he forgets about the arena, and Palestag was most probably not like that

[kindred ingot]

ah, yes
the Dreamrealminator

[graceful grail]

He probably has a dream nail at the center of it, and then saws buzz around it.

[jolly trail]

I have a theory (mostly going to be wrong lol)
i think that if a part of an infected body of void,life blood or the affection goes in one of the realms in the dream world then: it could in theory influence it or distroy or connect/fuse other realm it like example lost kin, THK, the sienctist (im not sure), godseeker (im not sure either for this one), radiance (bc the knight goes in the battle as a void entity), and others

[surreal heron]

Using the Dreamrealminator, I will send the entire Tri-State Area into the drealm realm!

[kindred ingot]

the Dreamrealminator

[graceful grail]

Here is the build

If you don’t get it, you’re loss.

[kindred ingot]

are you telling me that I'm :.|:;?

[prime mantle]

this doesn't seem like a world teleport wand, hm...

at least i've never seen one with the bullet spell

[graceful grail]

It works

[jolly trail]

can someone give me an advice about this theory pls? bc i think its wrong

[low oracle]

In all honesty, I don't understand what you are trying to express.

[jolly trail]

so lets put ir on the basis void,lifeblood and the infection all apear fysicaly on a being by that i mean bugs and can also appear in dreams like: for void we have the knight

for the infection radaince

and lifeblood that THING THAT HAS NO NAME sorry we really need a name for this

[low oracle]

Abyss creature

[jolly trail]

aslo

[low oracle]

Lost Kin isn't actually the Vessel, but rather the infection inside it. Since many people seemingly think it's actually infected.

[jolly trail]

yeah but wait

[fleet sparrow]

Does anyone know what the dead vaultkeeper
is called?

[low oracle]

Probably just a Title, as they are often enough equal to names.

[surreal heron]

So… Pontiff

[wet walrus]

Same thing also goes to watcher knights. They are fallen warriors reanimated by infected parasitic flies. Since some people think infection can reanimate the dead.

[edgy nebula]

he's referred to as the pontiff

so i guess he's just? the pope?

[low oracle]

Well it can, but not in that case. The infection can:
-control "living" bugs
-control dead bugs (some die from the infection overtaking too much of them, e.g. Husk Guard in infected crossroads)
-Control bugs which overtake shells

Some creatures are also technically infected, while not really being so at the same time. That mostly goes for THK and Uumuu (+little jellyfish).
THK literally has the infection inside of it, but doesn't show infected behaviour. Instead we see the Radiance directly acting from its body.
Uumuu is quite clear I believe.

[low oracle]

Well the vaultkeepers are preachers, so basically.

[gentle aspen]

No, I’m the pope.

[jolly trail]

@low oracle if we go on the basis that the dream world is a world with several realms in it. where it was showed severals times we need to enter physically to like influence it.
SO could it be that the life blood, void (just raw void), infection (radiance) need a host in the physical world to enter one's dream to control them? (i mean could explain the void entered the dream realm of radiance or im just really really dumb)

[edgy nebula]

okay pope joker

[jolly trail]

sorry toook so long to write it lol

[gentle aspen]

pontiff also doesn’t always mean pope

[low oracle]

By the way, what is up with the Pilgrim Preacher? Did he ever actually visit the vaults or is he just spreading propaganda without knowing it in full detail?

[wet walrus]

Which dead bugs were controlled by infection
Another question were jellyfishes meant to contain infection? I heard someone come uo with this theory.

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Entombed Husk

Description:
Mummified remains, deformed and enraged by infection.

Hunter's notes:
Inside these shambling corpses is a bright light that pierces any darkness. I peered inside that light once and saw... something within it shining back. Something terrible.

Dream Nail:
...Light... mine...
...Sleep... light... sleep...
...Alive... more light...

@kingoclowns used /journal name: Entombed Husk

[gentle aspen]

also every instance of a husk is meant to be a corpse

Aside from a few examples

[low oracle]

All Higher Beings have their own realm from how it seems to me (Unn = green, NKG = red, PK = white) but Radiance just has the colour of the default dream realm so we can't make a difference. At least that would be an explanation.

[wet walrus]

👍

[low oracle]

Jellyfish were Monomon's personal vessel prototypes, artificial or in the ways of the Pale King.
As to which infected bugs are dead, a large majority in most areas. Every "raging" infected, as their own body couldn't sustain the power. In embrace the void the traitor lord would probably implode if all the infectious mass dispersed in such a fast time.

[gentle aspen]

The idea that jellyfish were made to contain to the infection is due to two things

[low oracle]

Uumuu Dreamnail dialogue for one.

[gentle aspen]

1.) Fog Canyon shows basically no physical signs of being affected by the infection

and B.) a specific type of dream nail dialogue in the area

[low oracle]

(except for the infection preserved/trapped in bubbles and jellyfish, but you're basically right otherwise.)

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: Fog Canyon - Husk Guard - "...Drained..."

...Drained...

@kingoclowns used /dream-nail area: Fog Canyon name: Husk Guard - "...Drained..."

[jolly trail]

👍

[wet walrus]

I will go with B cuz Deepnest wasn't affected as much by infection because they were brainless bugs who chose to stay brainless

[gentle aspen]

The idea is that the jellyfish absorb the infection and contain it within their bubbly bodies
they’re also like, one of the only instances where they’re not directly antagonistic or trying to kill them

iirc even cowardly husks attempt to swing

poorly

but they try

[low oracle]

Additionally, the infection gets aggressive once leaving the body of the big jellyfish (idk Oomba or something).

[edgy nebula]

is there any explanation for the bugs in the colosseum

since we're on the topic of infected bugs

[gentle aspen]

they’re doing what they did in life

[low oracle]

Apart from theories, nope.

[gentle aspen]

The giant husk guard until they spot you then they try to kill you

[gentle aspen]

same sort of concept

[low oracle]

That's the haunting though, the infection doesn't necessarily lead to that.

[jolly trail]

the problem is that the affection makes every being with a mind dangerous i think

[edgy nebula]

but they dont attack you in the resting area?

[gentle aspen]

yeah, because they didn’t do that when they were uninfected

[low oracle]

Myla didn't attack either though.

[jolly trail]

before she was fully infecterd

[low oracle]

Blackwyrm theory exists, it would explain most colloseum things.

[gentle aspen]

Myla had the radiance screaming in her brain telling her to murder the knight

not really equivalent

[wet walrus]

Surprisingly Myla is the only weak bug who tried to resist the infection
Possibly?

[gentle aspen]

It doesn’t
The beacon can get overriden by the infection and the colosseum is not a wyrm

[low oracle]

Equivalent because that counts for literally every crossroad bug. Even the guards have no reason to attack (normaly), since the Knight is just a common traveller to them.

[edgy nebula]

i mean, most bugs in hallownest didnt kill things when they were uninfected, why are the colosseum bugs different?

[limpid summit]

I think the sitting guys are analogous to Myla

They’re in that transition stage

We just can’t see their eyes

[edgy nebula]

aah

[gentle aspen]

weaker wills or they just aren’t infected yet

[gentle aspen]

Either explanation is like
fine

[low oracle]

Theory
And the infection should always make bugs hostile, no matter when. Just because it comes in stages, doesn't change the fact that it eventually comes.

[jolly trail]

yeah but we can see it in her dream nail dialogue also

[gentle aspen]

the colo bugs are also probably alive

[gentle aspen]

Imma be frank the theory doesn’t hold any water

just saying “theory” doesn’t invalidate anything I said

it doesn’t work

[low oracle]

That would be impossible. How would that even work? Like, do you just gather them in the collosseum everytime they get aggressive, while somehow not dying?

[wet walrus]

Or maybe they embraced the infection for power willingly?
They don't antagonize the knight in the resting room. And are very trained in combat just like mantis traitora.

[jolly trail]

true true but myla was not fully infected first time we meet her

[low oracle]

Personally I think it does. At least moreso than the explanations I see here.

[gentle aspen]

we see people in the process of getting infected what he said isn’t impossible

[edgy nebula]

they gather in naturally cause thats what they did in their lives

[jolly trail]

no her dreamnail dialogue could say the aposite

[upper copper]

Ooh like a hive!

[gentle aspen]

Well it doesn’t really matter? The colosseum isn’t a wyrm or a blackwyrm

[limpid summit]

Their presence in the colosseum, attempting to fulfill their desires, draws them towards Rad, so they get introspective and confused
Once they give in while they fight they’re fully infected

[wet walrus]

I am talking about fools

[limpid summit]

That’s not crazy

[upper copper]

The colosseum being another hive sounds cool

[low oracle]

Yes, but collosseum bugs don't get infected in order. The collosseum bugs that run it (whoever that may be) couldn't possibly keep them all at bay.

[jolly trail]

oh sorry but they seem just unaffected for some reason maybe bc the king fool

or black wyrm in it

[gentle aspen]

why would his corpse mean they’re not affected

[jolly trail]

yes i mean they are not infected i think we have a misunderstanding here

[wet walrus]

I don't think we know what wyrms generally look like but the entrance resembles the mask of big fool

[gentle aspen]

the one wyrm we see has their head as a wyrm be an almost identical copy to their smaller form

lord fool’s head doesn’t do that

[jolly trail]

yeah maybe he did the same as the pale king

[gentle aspen]

Also the colosseum bug clearly has limbs and wyrms explicitly don’t have those

[limpid summit]

There’s like 3 more eyes

Pairs of eyes

They don’t look alike just because they have spikes

[wet walrus]

They both have 3 eyes wdym?

[jolly trail]

theory
so if we go that he also has the power of a pale being than he could just arrase the thoughs of the infection leaving free will

[gentle aspen]

lord fool doesn’t have three eyes

And they said pairs

[limpid summit]

Oh you mean the thing above him

[wet walrus]

Pale king also have limbs. Doesn't he?

[limpid summit]

PK couldn’t erase infection

[wet walrus]

Yeah what I meant

[edgy nebula]

lord fool being a wyrm would be cool but he isnt

[gentle aspen]

as a wyrm he did not

[limpid summit]

Infection erases the beacon

[wet walrus]

Where is the limb though? In the enterence

[gentle aspen]

Well regardless the heads don’t match

[wet walrus]

Or inside

[gentle aspen]

The entrance

[edgy nebula]

in the background you see it

[jolly trail]

yes pale king had a forsight power so could we assume every wyrm has some kind of power or idk im dilulu

[gentle aspen]

the colosseum isn’t a wyrm is the point

[wet walrus]

Oh I get it

[gentle aspen]

it’s too small and has limbs

[jolly trail]

oh i get sowwy

[gentle aspen]

Its cool

[wet walrus]

Nah it is as large as the cast off shell. They cover the entire screen

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t actually

[jolly trail]

cant we just look in the game code for the name?

[gentle aspen]

You can see pk’s body in the background all throughout kingdom’s edge

PK’s old body was genuinely massive

[jolly trail]

yeah i know but talking about those picture you sended

[edgy nebula]

erm, ackthually, you can see his bones and teeth.. but not his body...

[gentle aspen]

I will fry you alive

[wet walrus]

I just got the map and turns out it is larger

[jolly trail]

@low oracle is scaring me with how long he is writing rn

[wet walrus]

The collessium might be another reptile like wyrms. Maybe a beast rather than a higher being .

[wet walrus]

Same, it is like he is about to bring my downfall

[jolly trail]

everybodies downfall

[low oracle]

The would get infected right away then.
Anyways, my personal speculation AS OF NOW:

The collosseum is run by by someone/something we never actually met, using the corpse of Lord Fool as their "avatar" (idk the word).
The bugs watching aren't affected by the infection, due to being distracted by the collosseum's fights. Basically, they don't start to dream because they aren't ever left alone with their own thoughts (like Sly/Bretta/Myla).
The fools are infected, but kept at bay through their special masks/helmets. They are aware, but only enough to fight in the collosseum when needed. They are of species native to Hallownest, though they only appear with their armor in-game.

Then there are others coming to the collosseum, the outsiders. That includes Tiso, Volt twisters, and parts of tha Mantis Traitor faction. They have partened from their tribes to fight for glory of their own. Pale Lurker and God Tamer are also such examples, as they are unique. However they have fought in the collosseum long enough to be granted masks of their own.

Perhaps they are all fools, because they fight for glory, when they only fuel the entertainment of others.

[jolly trail]

@wet walrus btw can you look at the #hk-lore channel and look at the lore of that one guy

bc im going crazy looking at it

[low oracle]

We don't see the full extent of neither corpses, but the Collosseum body was definitely no normal bug. Personally I would say it is just one of these massive creatures, like the one Sprintmaster is found in.

[jolly trail]

also in the abbys and queens garden or it was green path

[wet walrus]

I am sure it is a beast since it is no higher being

Though the big fool could be one of 2 things
The reincarnation of the beast
The guy who runs the place wearing the mask that resembles the face of the beast

[jolly trail]

we are showed most of the time that higher beings are big honestly same in silk song but then there are exceptions like mask maker who is big but not an higher being

[low oracle]

Truth to be told, there is very likely just absolutely no lore on that thing. Team Cherry designs their environments more after aesthetics than anything. Large corpses just look cool af.

[low oracle]

Mask Maker isn't a higher being, in case you are saying so. But their size really just isn't consistent at all.

[jolly trail]

i know im just saying he isn't

like he is big but not an higher being

[low oracle]

Ah.

[quiet solar]

Why is this in sk lore😭 /lh

[jolly trail]

bc "no voice to scream suffering"

[low oracle]

So I can actually argument. HK lore would limit me to saying that Herrah isn't necessarily a weaver and stuff like that.

[jolly trail]

nah we just went too far

[quiet solar]

It does? Also that was almost entire hk lore tho/lh/nm

[low oracle]

Herrah is referred to as a common beast. I've always thought she was a Weaver, just because I missed that dialogue. But you get my point. Sprintmaster is another thing, where we would be lost af without Silksong.

[midnight reef]

A question, from Silksong we know that Hornet definitely had a relationship with the White Lady, but did she have much of one with the Pale King?

[wet walrus]

Probably closest weaver to Herrah we have

Though Hornet can somewhat be considered a weaver since silk is a form of soul

And she can use and produce it even if her mother can't thanks to her dominant pale gene

And considering weavers were pharlids who were elevated by a pale being

Same technically also goes to hornet who gained the silk powers from pale king who is also a pale being

[jagged brook]

yo do yall think the sk dlc in gonna be abt plasmium more or less

[spark valve]

probably

[limpid summit]

Unfortunately

[foggy fractal]

highly likely

[limpid summit]

Which ones

Void cleanse us?

No those are probably members of the ancient civilization from HK

The ones who made the soul totems and worshipped void

[lone folio]

Wait isnt it wierd that hornets eyes glow the same color as the submarine??

like that doesnt happen if you have a bright flashlight behind someones head

[crimson patio]

Isn’t it also weird how her eyes are reflecting red light if it’s see through

[crimson patio]

It’s auraful

Also here’s my interpretation for that pic

[lone folio]

what is upp with her eyes

[crimson patio]

It’s not that the submarine is shining through her eyes from behind

But rather the light of the submarine was reflecting off of something in front of her

Which reflects off of her eyes

And make it glow

[lone folio]

And her face is completely in shadow?

[crimson patio]

It’s like one of those
Cat eyes glowing in the dark
Type shit

The eyes don’t actually glow

It just reflects light

[wet walrus]

What I am saying is even if herrah isn't a weaver hornet would still be considered a weaver since she has gotten her silk powers from a pale being which herrah who was a common beast didn't have. Pale beings are soul related higher beings and silk is another form of soul.

[gentle aspen]

No

It’s artwork

If it was black her face would be weird

[frosty gate]

I'm sorry what

That doesn't make any sense, if Herrah wasn't a Weaver then Hornet wouldn't be a Weaver

[kindred ingot]

what? Herrah is obviously a Weaver. If she wasn't a Weaver, Hornet would just be a half-wyrm

all of Silksong wouldn't have happened

[gentle aspen]

@swift needle No memes

[pale narwhal]

the pale king had no kind of silk at all

[twilit crest]

I heard a rumor that this was made with ai. Was that just a silkpost?

[gentle aspen]

I mean, no?

[kindred ingot]

it doesn't look ai generated to me

[twilit crest]

I honestly can’t tell but I’m also leaning the same way

[kindred ingot]

I mean, silk is just a form of Soul and Pale King, as a Pale Being, had lots of Soul

[gentle aspen]

Team cherry drew it

[kindred ingot]

then yeah it's not AI

[blissful harbor]

not to say i agree with them saying herrah isn’t a weaver
but she could still be a spider and give hornet her silk

[kindred ingot]

are there non-Weaver spiders capable of using Silk in HK?

[pale narwhal]

but what he didnt have was the ability to make that soul into silk.
thats a trait unique to the weavers

[kindred ingot]

yeah that is true

...now that I think about it, could Pharlids turn Soul into Silk or was that an ability given by GMS?

[pale narwhal]

not that we see

[kindred ingot]

also, wtf are Little Weavers?

this little thingy

[whole marsh]

While not stated in game, I assume there's 2 types of silk. Normal silk (the stuff that's all over deepnest). Just normal ass webbing. And there's Weaver Silk, which is either infused with, or comprised of Soul, which sets it apart from normal silk (which I guess we could just call webbing?)

[pale narwhal]

who knows
maybe stillborns woken by the radiance's infection

[kindred ingot]

weren't Weavers incapable of giving birth under regular circumstances?

[pale narwhal]

and yet we have several known weaver children

[kindred ingot]

none of them are full Weaver

[whole marsh]

We don't know the details. We just know it's very hard and painful for them

[kindred ingot]

and they are "one in one million" occurences

[blissful harbor]

it’s said to be difficult, not impossible

[craggy smelt]

they're just regular adult weavers but smaller

[kindred ingot]

if Little Weavers are Weavers, why didn't the Choir try to get them?

[blissful harbor]

they’re infected

[kindred ingot]

yeah, but they're not dead

[craggy smelt]

they sent a force to Hallownest, but were focused only on getting Hornet
she was the only one mentioned as being 'sensed strong with silk'

[blissful harbor]

don’t think the silk in them is good anymore
if they could even use soul silk

they might’ve been hybrids

[kindred ingot]

dead Weavers don't get infected, we see multiple Weaver corpses in HK and none of them try to kill us

[pale narwhal]

by the time the choir goes after hornet, the infection is finished

[blissful harbor]

and most infected bugs would just keel over dead

[kindred ingot]

which means Little Weavers are weaker than a half-Weaver

[blissful harbor]

you seen what that does to your insides?

[craggy smelt]

or the Infection might've killed most of the Weavers off before the Citadel started sending out forces

[kindred ingot]

I think Little Weavers aren't real Weavers
maybe just worshippers or coincidentally similar regular beasts

[craggy smelt]

depends on when the Haunting started and how far Silk's senses extend

[kindred ingot]

probably worshippers

[blissful harbor]

little weavers are the product of weavers and deephunters mixing over generations
they simply aren’t pure blooded and not “strong enough with silk” to try and capture

[kindred ingot]

I mean, we do have the Stalking Devout

[kindred ingot]

if Weavers could just mix with regular beasts like that, Hornet wouldn't be so special (and maybe she wouldn't even exist since there would be no need for a child)

[blissful harbor]

“over many generations” it’s rare but not impossible for them to have children

[kindred ingot]

I still think they're just worshippers

[whole marsh]

Honestly, I'm thinking that the little weavers might not be cannon anymore. We were supposed to fight weavers in HK, but for whatever reason they never made it into the game. So the Little Weavers may have been a leftover from that original idea. If I had to guess, the current lore is that Herrah is a weaver, and the "little weavers" are now just the offspring of Deepnest's original inhabitants.

[kindred ingot]

like the Stalking Devouts and the guys at Beast's Den

[whole marsh]

I have nothing to base this on, just my thoughts on the matter

[blissful harbor]

yes the answer is little weavers were thought of before the child thing with actual weavers

[kindred ingot]

also Herrah is called "the Beast" cuz of racism

maybe all Weavers were called "beasts" cuz they come from Pharlids which are regular beasts
but it is racism

[whole marsh]

I think it's just Hallownest racism tbh. I doubt anyone other than weavers would know they originally came from pharlids.

[kindred ingot]

yeah that's more likely

[whole marsh]

I was about to ask what was up with the weavers that left Hallownest to return to Pharloom, but I imagine they were caught by GMS/The Choir when they arrived.

[gentle aspen]

I mean, not really?

[limpid summit]

That probably wasn’t public knowledge among the regular brood

Idk what beast means now really

[whole marsh]

This is 100% just an art style thing, so you can see her eyes/face. The Lifeblood update promotional pic for HK did something similar with the Hive Knight. Although, his eyes were actively glowing... I think this is just supposed to be a callback to that old promotional art.

[gentle aspen]

Hornet calls her that too

[limpid summit]

It used to be because Herrah wasn’t honored

[gentle aspen]

it’s like, just a title now

[limpid summit]

Now I guess she’s just a beastly fighter or something

[gentle aspen]

????

[limpid summit]

The beast

[gentle aspen]

she’s queen of deepnest dude

[limpid summit]

She’s a beast

LeBron is a beast on the court

[kindred ingot]

does she? well, that's odd

[whole marsh]

I think it's just a retcon thing. I doubt she'd call her mom such currently.

[limpid summit]

“So you’ve slain the Beast”

[random harbor]

Hornet - General - Beast's Den

So you've slain the Beast... and you head towards that fated goal.
I'd not have obstructed this happening, but it caused me some pain to knowingly stand idle.
...What? You might think me stern but I'm not completely cold.
We do not choose our mothers, or the circumstance into which we are born. Despite all the ills of this world, I'm thankful for the life she granted me.
It's quite a debt I owed. Only in allowing her to pass, and taking the burden of the future in her stead, can I begin to repay it.

@kingoclowns used /npcs wanderers name: Hornet category: General dialogue: Beast's Den

[limpid summit]

Hornet dgaf

[gentle aspen]

why would that be a retcon?

what exactly needs to have been changed

[limpid summit]

The meaning of beast is a retcon yes

[whole marsh]

Ah I take that back after seeing what Hornet actually said

[gentle aspen]

bro I am the first to call out retcons this shit isn’t one dawg

[whole marsh]

She's probably just using a term that's known regarding her mom?

[limpid summit]

How is this not one

[whole marsh]

Idk lol

[limpid summit]

Originally it came from her common upbringing in comparison to her dead husband

[kindred ingot]

"we do not choose our mothers" one game later: "THIS DISGUSTING FLY MUST DIE FOR THE SIN OF BEING BORN"

[limpid summit]

Now she’s a super powerful Weaver and the mushrooms were just being weird

[spark valve]

which still applies? she wasn't part of the deepnest royal line or whatever

[whole marsh]

I'm of the opinion, that she was considered "Common Bug" due to being an immigrant, and not being recognized as royalty in Hallownest

[limpid summit]

Barely

Would you really call Snail Shamans common beasts

[kindred ingot]

Deepnest does have conscious bugs
Stalking Devouts, the guys from Beast's Den, Herrah's Husband...

[spark valve]

if I were talking about them in contrast to royalty sure

[limpid summit]

Okay the retcon can be that the enlightened mushrooms are now weirdly bigoted

[spark valve]

dawg

[kindred ingot]

no, but remember that Hallownest is racist

[limpid summit]

The sire wasn’t an HB

[gentle aspen]

You’re making shit up

[spark valve]

This border bounds the twisting, scratching things.
Their dead sire, once of honoured caste.
Their sealed mother, but the common beast.
No peace with them we make.
yeah man they're racist

[whole marsh]

The weavers just escaped a pale being and probably didn't want to start a war with another one after moving in.

[kindred ingot]

being royalty and being a God are two different things

[limpid summit]

I mean this is pretty matter of fact in the context of HK

[spark valve]

ok it's also kinda racist how is it a retcon to read it that way

like that is just in the tablet

[kindred ingot]

they're really racist

assuming a Hollow Knight character isn't racist is a big assumption

[gentle aspen]

the term is used like that once bruh

[spark valve]

in a context where it's calling the deepnest tribe 'twisting scratching things'

[limpid summit]

That’s likely where it was originally meant to come from though

The Beast

Midwife even calls her so

[gentle aspen]

yeah from random bumfuck mushrooms no one cares about

[limpid summit]

Yes??

[gentle aspen]

Blocked

[limpid summit]

You think the spiders wouldn’t be more willing to adhere to notions of caste

Their own caste system

[limpid summit]

It’s not nice to discourage discussion

[kindred ingot]

damn, blocking someone cuz of an interpretation of a lore tablet?

that's kind of a dick move

[limpid summit]

No I was just making a point

I don’t think the lore tablet is read any differently

[kindred ingot]

what are you even doing in sk-lore if you don't want to discuss lore?

[gentle aspen]

He’s my friend and I’m making a joke stop pinging me with your presumptions

[kindred ingot]

yeah whatever, my point still stands, it was a dick move from them

[gentle aspen]

my god

[limpid summit]

Joker is my friend lmao

It’s chill

[kindred ingot]

it's kinda hard to know when it's a joke when there's no indication of it and there were times when you said similar things that weren't jokes
but sorry about that

[gentle aspen]

I just don’t see it as like, racism?
she is queen of deepnest
They ain’t gonna write “deepnesters”

[spark valve]

I'm being facetious about them calling them twisting scratching things being in line with not particularly respecting them

[kindred ingot]

calling a whole kingdom "twisting scratching things" is kinda racist ngl

[limpid summit]

Midwife don’t even twist

I guess it’s like twisting and scratching

Two types of things

[spark valve]

she's a little twisty

[whole marsh]

For what it's worth, coming from a mushroom, which is a VERY different life form, maybe it's not so ill intended?

[kindred ingot]

"You're a THING that TWISTS AND SCRATCHES and your "wEaVeR qUeEn" is a COMMON BEAST and I want NOTHING to do with you"

[gentle aspen]

You see this right here

You’re adding connotations

that aren’t there

[muted lantern]

Anyone else in chat a twisting, scratching thing.

[gentle aspen]

Well yeah that’s fair
It’s just weird to go “it’s racism”

[whole marsh]

I can't believe my mind is changing on the term "beast" being a slur or not

[spark valve]

I'm more in a contorting clawing vibe myself

[limpid summit]

Okay wait let me rephrase

[gentle aspen]

At most its ignorance based on preconceived notions and experiences

[kindred ingot]

it's not a slur, it's more like calling someone an animal

or savage

[spark valve]

I mean that is textbook

[gentle aspen]

You know what I mean

[kindred ingot]

the word "animal" is not a slur, but it can be used as an offensive term

[whole marsh]

I know, hyperbole because humor

But you get what I mean

[spark valve]

genuinely I don't know what you mean what distinction are you drawing between racism and ignorance based on preconceived notions about a group

[whole marsh]

The meaning and intention behind it

[gentle aspen]

they’re grouping deepnest’s sapient and non sapient individuals together

[spark valve]

yeah

[gentle aspen]

because that is what they see

[spark valve]

sure

[kindred ingot]

speaking of Herrah
what's up with her shell? why does she have horns?

[whole marsh]

The Deepnestians being called beasts as a derogatory term vs, a general description/label that isn't steeped in hostility

[kindred ingot]

why does she wear a mask on top of her shell?

[gentle aspen]

she’s a dreamer

[spark valve]

'but the common beast' is certainly not respectful

[gentle aspen]

They all wear masks

[kindred ingot]

ok yeah fair

but still

why the horns?

[limpid summit]

“Beast” colloquially means animal but the mushroom tablet refers to Herrah as a beast due to her common status
I think the game makes it semi clear this is a title she embraced upon ruling, suggesting that she held great sway in spite of it (as Hornet and Midwife call her it too)
Now the title can’t carry the same connotation if these parties know she actually a powerful Weaver and not like a Deephunter
I don’t think it’s huge I think it’s just another sign of the Weaver/spider disconnect that was dismantled as a result of Herrah retcons, like Midwife’s dialogue coincidentally not hinting that the literal important queen was a Weaver

[gentle aspen]

it looks cool

[limpid summit]

She was born that way

The horns are her face

[whole marsh]

#sk-lore message

[kindred ingot]

also, considering she's a Weaver, and Weavers have masks instead of shells, her shell is also a mask

she's wearing two masks

[limpid summit]

Her mask is her face

[spark valve]

I mean yeah herrah being a weaver is a retcon this specifically just isn't totally irreconcilable

[gentle aspen]

She’s not “wearing two masks” one is her face

[limpid summit]

Eh I suppose I’m sort of reaching

But what do you think Beast meant/means now if it’s not different

Out of curiosity

Just like a rahhh I’m an animal

[whole marsh]

I think the term "mask" both means a literal mask, and "face". Some bugs are born with hard exoskeleton faces that are similar to masks in appearance, and some aren't.

[limpid summit]

I’m gonna get you

[kindred ingot]

Weavers' faces are masks that can be removed (look at Widow)
her "face" is a mask, and she wears another mask on top of that

[spark valve]

I think it means the same thing as it always did it's a point of contrast with her honored husband

[kindred ingot]

two masks

[gentle aspen]

That is biologically a part of the weaver

[limpid summit]

Widow’s face is ripped off

[gentle aspen]

You can remove your hair does that mean when you get extensions you have “two hairs?”

[limpid summit]

That’s why she wears a bag over her head instead of just putting on another actual mask

[foggy fractal]

yes

[spark valve]

yup

[whole marsh]

I think Herrah is wearing a dreamer mask over her biological mask.

[kindred ingot]

extreme oversimplification but that's basically it

[whole marsh]

There's cloth that's attached to the mask that's different to the shawl that she's wearing

[kindred ingot]

...yes

[whole marsh]

You can see the dreamer mask has darker fabric, while her shawl is a lighter blue

[spark valve]

that's lighting

[gentle aspen]

I hate it here

[edgy nebula]

gang this is lighting

[whole marsh]

As for why she's wearing it in the Red Dream, Hornet can't remember her face. That's her earliest memory, and Herrah only spent a short time with Hornet before going to sleep

[foggy fractal]

do not underestimate the biology that exists within the world of hollow knight

[whole marsh]

It's clearly a separate piece of fabric

WAIT

[spark valve]

I don't know if you're taking the piss or not

[whole marsh]

FUCK YOU'RE RIGHT

I wasn't but you were right

[sinful nimbus]

OK but it genuinely does look like a 6 eyed lurien 😭

I ain't unseeing that

[edgy nebula]

what are you talking about

[kindred ingot]

yeah it's so weird

[foggy fractal]

who? Herrah?

[kindred ingot]

smol 6 eyed Lurien inside Herrah

[whole marsh]

I'm just glad I'm not the only one who sees it lol

[edgy nebula]

i mean? vaguely i guess?

[limpid summit]

I just think that’s so crazy if you aren’t a king no matter how strong you are you’re a Beast

[kindred ingot]

speaking of Lurien, what's up with him?

[limpid summit]

“Most intelligent species” my ass

[spark valve]

I don't think the shrumals would call them that

[dire lynx]

random noble who likes the king and watching people

[kindred ingot]

is he just some guy?

[kindred ingot]

well that's weird

[muted lantern]

whos more racist the shrumals or the weavers

[kindred ingot]

what did he even do?

[dire lynx]

we*vers

[edgy nebula]

watcher of city of tears with a secret relationship with someone thats never actually shown ingame

[whole marsh]

PK's eye(s). He watches the city and reports anything odd to the PK. (That's what I gather at least)

[kindred ingot]

Weavers aren't racist, they believed all pilgrims were equal and stuff

[muted lantern]

he gives me the vibes of like a royal spymaster

[spark valve]

all equally their slaves

[edgy nebula]

hornet carries the weavers in terms of racism

[kindred ingot]

he had smth to do with Collector

[muted lantern]

Uhhhh. They explicitly describe pilgrims like prey in the moss grotto. describing them as caught in their web.

[kindred ingot]

and he has a big ass telescope

[kindred ingot]

but all equally caught

no distinction between the species

[spark valve]

they also call the conductors and rest of the caste simple bugs

[dire lynx]

hes just a voyeur 🥀

[muted lantern]

viewing your people as superior to other peoples is racism lol

[whole marsh]

I think the weavers are more in the camp of "god complex"/"narcacist" than active racist

[spark valve]

when you project that to your entire species...

[kindred ingot]

bro just watches all the time, there's nothing else in that damn room

[edgy nebula]

who do we think lurien was in love with

[dire lynx]

the butler

[kindred ingot]

probably the Collector or the Lovekey Bug

[whole marsh]

Flukemarm

[edgy nebula]

lots of conflicting opinions

[muted lantern]

I like the idea that lurien is the spymaster, he like keeps tabs on the events of the city and reports to the king. that would explain why his role as watcher buy him such a opulent home.

[whole marsh]

He would be loyal enough to take on that roll, and at that point, the city was probably too far gone for his job to really matter anymore

[kindred ingot]

my personal theory is that he's just a big fan of City of Tears
like, a BIG fan
he does have paintings of the City all around his spire

[muted lantern]

well by that point he was dreaming already

[whole marsh]

Hmm I guess so, my memory on timeline stuff for HK is hazy tbh

[limpid summit]

The collector void?

I doubt it was that thing

LKB probably

[edgy nebula]

it's probably pk, his butler, or the lovekey dandy

[dire lynx]

cut dialogue, but he does seem to love the city
"My city. Do you sustain without me? Do you thrive? I would see your streets again..."

[sinful nimbus]

Your mask... It reads clear enough, Old One. Watcher, hunter, monarch even, though you may reject that station.
Hornet duh

[kindred ingot]

speaking of Dreamers, which kind of bug even is Monomon?

[whole marsh]

I was kidding about Flukemarm, but like... maybe?

[muted lantern]

ah yes, flukrien the fluker

[whole marsh]

Jellyfish, or whatever the HK universe equivilant is. Similar to what we see in the Karak dream

[spark valve]

lurien is just a normal stick figure bug

[kindred ingot]

well that's weird

[whole marsh]

Foiled again

[muted lantern]

LOL he looks so stupid

[whole marsh]

Tammo is 2 to my 0

[kindred ingot]

yeah he was just some guy before the mask

[limpid summit]

Monomon might not have been born that way

[muted lantern]

all his aura lost

[limpid summit]

Could have experimented on herself

[edgy nebula]

realistically i think he'd probably be a dandy or something but tc just didnt add the detail

[kindred ingot]

that's why he wanted the seals to stay
he knew that if the Knight killed him, he'd lose all the aura he had been farming since before the death of Hallownest

[spark valve]

the statues of him are red and depict the dreamer mask which is interesting probably I guess

[edgy nebula]

he's red because he wants to kill you

[kindred ingot]

what's with Dreamers and being the color red at some point?

[whole marsh]

When was monomon red?

[edgy nebula]

lurien really wants to remain huh

[whole marsh]

That seems more like lighting than the statue itself

[spark valve]

he's the only true believer

[spark valve]

the lighting like all of cot is pretty overwhelmingly blue if anything the statue is probably even redder

though in the like purplish right cot sense

[edgy nebula]

this is funky

i wonder if the trilobite shrine was gonna be the dreamer at first

[whole marsh]

Is that herrah concept art?

That's really cool

[edgy nebula]

concept art of a spider thing with a dreamer mask i think

[kindred ingot]

she's always been red, idk what you're talking about

[whole marsh]

The top portion looks similar to the stalking devouts

[dire lynx]

it looks like galien

[edgy nebula]

i wonder what monomon would look like under her mask

would she be like peanut shaped? would she have a face?

[spark valve]

she might have a jelly core

[whole marsh]

Either the most beautiful thing you could imagine, or the most horrific

[kindred ingot]

the three Dreamers

nothing wrong with them

[whole marsh]

Get sniped (again)

[kindred ingot]

idk what you're talking about

[robust wagon]

PK

[viral cloud]

why are they red

[kindred ingot]

they've always been red

[dire lynx]

lurien being red might just be because he is nobility, all the others wear it

[viral cloud]

but they were blue though!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[sinful nimbus]

Emilitia and Soul Master both wear red on top and blue on the bottom

perfect for eachother ❤️

[kindred ingot]

oh yeah they were blue in some versions of the game

[sinful nimbus]

And it represents them being rejected nobility or wtv iunno

[viral cloud]

those are the ones I have seen

[dire lynx]

rare pairings 🥹

[robust wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

[kindred ingot]

some people might remember Monomon as green, but that's because the Dreamers were green on the first versions of the game, and then changed to red

[dire lynx]

ok, it was funny at first

[spark valve]

Yeah that’s probably why

[kindred ingot]

okay I'll stop

the other images are edited, this is the only real one

[sinful nimbus]

Its called green humor

[kindred ingot]

and here's them yellow cuz why the fuck not

[muted lantern]

Breaking bad Mexico filter

[limpid summit]

Dreamer 💚
Dreamer 💜
Dreamer 💙
Dreamer 💔❌‼️

[stray fog]

Why does spore shroom (image 1) resemble the wish icon for the mr mushroom quest (image 2)?

But why

What is up with these 3 mushrooms in a cube

[limpid summit]

Probably just meta

[graceful grail]

What is in the jar in the foreground??

[limpid summit]

Idt the wish icons are canon

Same jar in the background

[graceful grail]

Foreground

Its not

Its diffrent

From the east sea??🌊

Sea of sorrow

[pale narwhal]

the wish icon was probably modeled on the charm because you need the charm to talk to mr mushroom in the first game