sk-lore

[kindred ingot]

but all of his citizens had to worship him and him only, the ones that didn't weren't part of the kingdom

[whole holly]

ones that could reliably fight back? Hive, Deepnest and Mantis Tribe?

[twin dragon]

Pk is a well written character, why couldn't they cook with radiance

[crystal marsh]

they shouldn't have left Radiance to die and yet they did

[kindred ingot]

Mosskin can't really fight back

[twin dragon]

Mosskind were mostly left alone

aside from that chunk WL took

which still hosted mosskin

[whole holly]

Moss Knight's exist

[crystal marsh]

the Hive didn't fight against Hallownest they just sealed themselves off from the rest of the world

[twin dragon]

Radiance still has some depth to her but i feel like gms has more

[stray fog]

Those mfs ain't fighting the pale king's army 🙏

[kindred ingot]

and the chunk Monomon took (was it from Greenpath or Fungal Wastes?)

[twin dragon]

Greenpath it seems

But that's beside Pk's control

[kindred ingot]

who would win? An endless army of void constructs, or 5 mossy bois?

[whole holly]

Moss Prophet? he seems to be in hideout of some kind, still, it is bad that Pale King's wife did that, they are both rulers of same kingdom

[whole holly]

powerscaling🥀

[twin dragon]

Moss prophet embraced the radiance instead

heresy

[twin dragon]

This time its genuinely realistic

Greenpath ain't doing shit

[kindred ingot]

anyway, why are we discussing Hollow Knight lore in the sk-lore channel?

[twin dragon]

Someone felt like expressing their opinions as a fact

[whole holly]

Moss Prophet seems to be in hideout... doesn't count as Queen's Gardens housing mosskin, plus there is warning for Pale Being

[twin dragon]

The flying moss thingies are mosskin

and so are loodle probably idfk

[whole holly]

so what, they are still able to defend their lands to extent, unlike Mushroom Clan who accepted pale king's rule

[whole holly]

Moss Creeps? i don't think they count https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Mosskin_Tribe

[stray fog]

I feel like the hive and the moss people are enough of an exception to disprove the argument of them defending their land

[twin dragon]

I would assume that they're unn's creation

[whole holly]

Hive is secluded and Greenpath is at some extent, although lesser

[twin dragon]

Pk didn't really ravage fungal wastes either

fungus dungus mfs lived on

[whole holly]

they are bugs that cover themselves in foliage, not exactly green children

[whole holly]

nobody said he did

[twin dragon]

And they didn't exactly show devotion

[whole holly]

to extent they did... but Hornet states that Pale Beings are about devotion or destruction

[twin dragon]

Wl straight up ate up a chunk of greenpath and its inhabitants then

[twin dragon]

But that is inherently not true

pale king disproves that

Hornet herself

kinda disproves that

[whole holly]

Pale King pulled Moths under his thrall like Wyrms do and almost caused Radiance to die only dead herself

[whole holly]

how so? he left powerful tribes alone?

[twin dragon]

Moths did it under their own volition and pk didn't really threaten them

[twin dragon]

He left most tribes alone

actually

even if they couldn't fight back

Man i wish old hearts timeline was more clear

[whole holly]

we don't know that, actually, Seer does say Moth did forsook light but how it happened is mystery

[twin dragon]

So we know if it was gms in her prime or the raging haunting that crushed the kingdoms

[kindred ingot]

meanwhile Pale Stag

[twin dragon]

I mean we know that verdania and skarr were haunted

Shellwood was never really touched at all

and karak's unclear

[whole holly]

that's stag touched pale, not a pale being

[whole holly]

which ones, other than Powerful Spider Tribe, Mantis Tribe and Mosskin?

[twin dragon]

Moths are attracted to light what a surprise

[twin dragon]

Mosskin aren't really powerful

and hallownest doesn't host that many of them

[whole holly]

please answer the question

[twin dragon]

Plus all of these tribes would fall under Pale king

if he really wanted to

[edgy nebula]

karak probably died before the haunting

[twin dragon]

What other tribes are there

[edgy nebula]

if it didnt it probably wouldve 100% been haunted considering silks in the water now

[whole holly]

nobody said it happened by peaceful transition

[twin dragon]

They saw a brighter light

thats on them

mate

[whole holly]

you said most tribes, all of those can defend their territories, and Pale King's Kingdom did annex the Queen's Gardens

[whole holly]

and pale king does pull bug's into his thrall, - Mister Mushroom dialogue

[twin dragon]

He probably cut a deal with the mosskin

He would've invaded greenpath

[whole holly]

annex implies otherwise

[whole holly]

he did annex the part of it

[twin dragon]

Where is it stated that he annexed part of it

[twin dragon]

However, he doesn't destroy whoever isn't pulled in

And yk, he might've acted differently if he kept his wyrm shell

[whole holly]

except radiance as a result

[twin dragon]

Radiance chose to blame Pk as an act of desperation

as she couldn't really afford to be forgotten

But the moths could stay loyal

if they wanted to

The seer did

[whole holly]

Greenpath Lore Tablet: "Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead. It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream."

[twin dragon]

Yes, they had disagreements

but for that the pale king didnt inherently nuke

all of greenpath

[whole holly]

Pale King most likely intentionally pulled bugs into his thrall and worship as he gained followers, including ones of Radiance, he might have underestimated her since she would have been forgotten and most likely powerless and he pulled Moths into his thrall, as Wyrms do and ruined cycle of radiance being worshiped and mothkin being sustained
it is Wyrm nature and likely with his foresight anticipated Radiance fading... as she did for some time

[twin dragon]

His foresight is very weird

and vaguely explained

[whole holly]

stop giving credits for things he didn't do lol, that bad argument

[twin dragon]

Wym bad argument

that literally proves that whatever hornet said is inherently not true lmao

[whole holly]

giving pale king credit for not nuking greenpath, they literally annexed part of greenpath

[twin dragon]

They didn't devote themselves to him

He didn't destroy them

neither he did with the mantises, spiders n hive

The "they could fight back" argument is irrelevant when they could do nothing against the forces of the pk

as they're much smaller in comparison

[edgy nebula]

better than what gms did

[twin dragon]

We dont know how bad gms was

aside from weaver propaganda

[whole holly]

this is not relative morality argument

[twin dragon]

Most of her atrocities come from the haunting

which isn't a conscious thing afaik

[edgy nebula]

i mean, she casts out one of her children, and later wants to immolate bugs

[sweet ermine]

She resisted the void to protect her child

[twin dragon]

For all we know the silk siblings could've been born during the haunting

where gms had no real agency

[whole holly]

but it could still have meant that Pale King simply preferred peace with Powerful tribes, correlation is there, plus we don't know timelines of him making Kingsmould, so it makes bad argument

[edgy nebula]

yeah but she abused the same child her entire life

[twin dragon]

Pk didn't only have kingsmould to his name lmfao

[sweet ermine]

she still had some feelings for her child.

[twin dragon]

and he would solo these tribes himself

[sweet ermine]

Is pk gay?

[twin dragon]

she tries her best

[edgy nebula]

i mean, he has a wife?

[twin dragon]

but her perception of motherhood is very twisted

[whole holly]

Pale King cast out all the children in abyss because another god got made because he pulled mothkin into his thrall thus ensuring radiance's death

[sweet ermine]

didn’t she die

[edgy nebula]

no?

[sweet ermine]

oh white lady

[twin dragon]

How did pk have kids broddie

[sweet ermine]

How did he have kids with a root.

[twin dragon]

if hes gay

well dont fucking ask me

[whole holly]

but you have to admit he would significantly be limited without Kingsmoulds, as how powerful they are, thus ensuring necessity of peace with tribes that were militarized

[twin dragon]

Do you realize

how powerful pk is?

If he wanted, he would straight up wipe the floor with anything in the kingdom

Kingsmould are there to protect the palace mostly

they weren't mass produced soldiers or anything like that

[shy warren]

They were mass produced though

[sweet ermine]

pk is to tiny to do anything but in his worm form definitely

[twin dragon]

Not to an extent where you could consider them an army

[sweet ermine]

much like everything else void related

[twin dragon]

His control over soul was still massive

[edgy nebula]

pk is still a hb, we just dont know his powers

[shy warren]

He has the same power though

[sweet ermine]

maybe

he still tiny.

but we haven’t directly seen him in action so.

[twin dragon]

If pk were to rule hallownest with his wyrm shell he maybe could've just nuked anyone who isn't with him

[sweet ermine]

wait.

[shy warren]

Well he did give the citizens intelligence and public transport

[twin dragon]

Due to the beastly nature whatever blah blah blah

But that's baseless

[whole holly]

We never seen his battle or similar things

[sweet ermine]

if vessel are part root then can they grow like a plant?

[edgy nebula]

would probably be a bit hard to rule when you take up like 1/6 of a kingdom

[shy warren]

Probably not

[twin dragon]

Well yeah

[shy warren]

Plus there's not much sunlight in Hollownest

[twin dragon]

Ok but do you REALLY think that mantises stand a chance

[sweet ermine]

Yes

[twin dragon]

Buddy

https://tenor.com/view/idfk-gif-3761179052566277881

[sweet ermine]

I haven’t seen his small form in action so probably.

But in worm form he definitely destroys

[whole holly]

My point is that maybe battle was not worth inconvinience to him, plus he could have transported himself in dream realm and fight radiance if it was feasible option

[twin dragon]

That was not, indeed, a feasible option

as hes leaving himself exposed in the radiance's own domain

[whole holly]

Transporting himself to dream realm was

[sweet ermine]

did he even know of the existence of the dream nail?

[whole holly]

It is just where she is, not entire dream realm is hers plus if he is that strong , he should be able to fight Radiance

[twin dragon]

Don't think he needed that at all

[sweet ermine]

oh

[whole holly]

He got himself into White Palace somehow

[sweet ermine]

wings?

[twin dragon]

The radiance would whoop the floor with him in her own domain probably

We don't know that

we just know he wouldn't do that for X reason

[sweet ermine]

didn’t the ghost destroy radiance in her own domain

[whole holly]

In pure vessels mind?

[twin dragon]

With the power of the abyss btw

[whole holly]

That reason most likely being his power compared to radiance

[sweet ermine]

that’s like kinda his power

[twin dragon]

Anywhere in the dream realm

[sweet ermine]

he’s made out of it

[whole holly]

Radiance does not own dream realm dude, Godhome and White Palace prove that

[sweet ermine]

how do you even get to white palace

[twin dragon]

Im not saying she does what

She's not really corporeal

[whole holly]

You said in her domain and anywhere in dream nail

[twin dragon]

Her domain IS the dream realm technically

even if its not "hers"

that's where she can p much exist and holds all power

anyways is ts powerscaling now

[whole holly]

So, knight nail can still hit her regardless

[twin dragon]

Yes, but she's corporeal only in the dream realm something something

[whole holly]

I don’t think that is true

[twin dragon]

Nothing says otherwise

[whole holly]

Pale King can go there, we already told you that, are you purposely forgetting points

[twin dragon]

Yes, but he didn't

because of ???

[whole holly]

Shade Lord holds all the power in dream realm

[twin dragon]

I don't remember if there was anything indicating

the reason

[whole holly]

But it is valid to say that Pale King is weaker than Radiance

[twin dragon]

Not gonna argue powerscaling

Pk's feats are more impressive

but that's because he just kinda

does more

[whole holly]

It is kind of direct implication

[obtuse talon]

Im pretty sure that was a conclusion mossbag came to

It's logical but not canon im pretty sure

[twin dragon]

Do we know the true answer though?

I mean a lot of things are left to speculation

[gentle aspen]

?

why would that not be canon

[twin dragon]

Iirc its not directly stated

[gentle aspen]

So????

That doesn’t make it not canon

[twin dragon]

The game doesnt directly confirm the fact

It is heavily implied yeah

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans don't play the game

it is in fact stated

[twin dragon]

True

[gentle aspen]

???

[random harbor]

Dung Defender - After the fight - First Encounter 3

We knights defend against the physical, but a formless enemy. How to defeat such a foe?
Our King tried in his own way. A cruel means it was... And still, eventually, we were brought low.
Bah! I shouldn't be so morose. You've invigorated me. Tis' sic truly a delight to meet one whose strength can match my own.

@kingoclowns used /npcs misc name: Dung Defender category: After the fight dialogue: First Encounter 3

[twin dragon]

Oh it is directly stated

Mb chud i dont know every dialogue in existence

[edgy nebula]

could this not be referring to the infection instead?

[gentle aspen]

😭

Radiance is the infection gng

[edgy nebula]

fair

[whole holly]

anyways i am glad we could at least conclude stated fact....

[twin dragon]

Ogrim my goat coming in clutch

[whole holly]

you disagreed with him..

[twin dragon]

I didnt what

Never said that the radiance WAS corporeal

[limpid summit]

It is

He totally knew about Rad and there’s no indication she was ever physical

But that dialogue is just like

Yeah we can punch but we can’t fight a disease

[spark valve]

they also can't punch a dream being

he's talking about an enemy

knowing the origins of the infection obviously he's talking about rad

[twin dragon]

He's one of the 5 knights also why wouldn't he know of rad

[whole holly]

they are aware that Infection has a source, i don't think they knew of her, but they knew about her as source of infection and old god/blazing light

[whole holly]

i mean knight stabs her with a nail, they simply don't have means to

[whole holly]

...

[twin dragon]

If i remember correctly

i did not remember correctly

Like ffs

[pliant meadow]

I mean it isn't stated that she's only incorporeal

[obtuse talon]

Thank you Dung Defender for coming in clutch with random lore from your poop-room

[low oracle]

Incorporal, corporal, what does all this mean?

[twin dragon]

She's basically not tangible, at least in the real realm

[low oracle]

Can you please just say it really simple? I'm no native speaker and I have no idea what these three words mean.

[frosty gate]

Is this about Radiance?

[twin dragon]

She doesnt have a body in the overworld

[low oracle]

I'm asking the same question.

[twin dragon]

if its incorporeal

[low oracle]

Radiance?

[twin dragon]

The talk is about radiance yes

[twin dragon]

yes

[whole holly]

i don't think that matters for Pale King as he transported his body into Dream Realm, along with White Palace

it only affects Five Great Knights

[twin dragon]

he wasn't gonna risk his own ass anyways

[low oracle]

From my understanding, there are three realms:

-The 'Physical' World/Overworld/Normal World (pretty clear what that is)

-The Dream Realm, which is a real 'physical' dimension, where the rules of reality apply; you can still die. Higher Beings have their own dream realms and places from the Overworld can be moved to a dream realm.

-Dreams/memories, which aren't real physical places, but rather memories or dreams of places. The rules of reality do not apply, and the space vanishes upon the memory being lost, the dream being achieved, etc.

The Radiance is a 'real' entity, though she (currently) exists in the dream realm. That doesn't mean she is limited to it, at least not under normal circumstances.
The Dream Realm the Dreamers trap the Knight in, is a different realm than the one where they themselves and the Radiance exist. We know for sure that the Dreamers and the Radiance exist in the same Dream Realm, by the Radiance rising (+ identical platforms). With each Dreamer eliminated, the "sun" in the background rises more. When entering the Dream Realm sealed within the Hollow Knight, the sun is at its highest. When the fight starts, it is revealed to be the Radiance.

In the background we can also see massive horns/mandibles, likely representing the top of the Hollow Knight's head.

Godhome is a completely different matter, and one that is to unique and complicated to be effectively constructive to any speculation or argumentation.

[whole holly]

Dream realm, Dreams are the same, they just have differences but still the same

[twin dragon]

Is this written with chatgpt?

[low oracle]

Then why do you die/not die depending on my definition of both? Also, how come the White Palace is a physical place, yet the Dream Warriors can seemingly just create places without taking them from reality?

[low oracle]

I find this quite insulting. AI disgusts me and I will never use it like some useless swine.

[twin dragon]

You said your understand of english is lacking and yet you use somewhat sophisticated words

[whole holly]

because that distinction is not that important, according to how game presents it to us

[low oracle]

My english isn't lacking, I simply don't know the whole dictionary.

[twin dragon]

The radiance probably has the power to straight up kill you

instead of just kicking you out of the dream

[gentle aspen]

Correct

[whole holly]

ehh, i speak B2-C1 level English, there are words i learn gradually, words that aren't used in conversation often

[low oracle]

You die though...
Why else would the shade spawn otherwise?

[twin dragon]

Haven't taken a test yet

[twin dragon]

That's what im saying

[gentle aspen]

higher being influence
you die in the radiance’s dream
you die in the white palace
both are domains of higher beings

[twin dragon]

yo

why remove the gif

its peak

[whole holly]

it is possible higher beings just have that power

[gentle aspen]

why would I remove rulebreaking content

[twin dragon]

how the fuck is it rulebreaking

Oh.. No memes

no fun allowed ic

[whole holly]

it got annoying after while

[low oracle]

Correlation isn't causation. It is just that only Higher Beings can even create these Dream Realms in the first place. And why would the Pale King want you dead?

[twin dragon]

They don't "create" them afaik

[gentle aspen]

no, you are arbitrarily making differences between dreams and dream realms

[twin dragon]

the dream realm is its own thing

[whole holly]

Dream Realms exist... some higher beings occupy them, Dream Realm is always in mind of beings

[gentle aspen]

And Pk’s entire palace has added on defenses why would he want not intruders dead

[low oracle]

Then was there convinietly empty space just waiting for the White Palace? Specifically in the color of the Pale King min you.

[whole holly]

i argued that exactly but you know...

[gentle aspen]

you are baselessly asserting dreams and the dream realm are separate

[twin dragon]

It's white because of PK's beacon

And it is in the "hollow" mind of a kingsmould

[gentle aspen]

anyways I’ve explained it continuing to say dreams are different from the dream realm is false

[whole holly]

dude... Dream Realm is kingsmould's mind, and White Palace existed in real world, PK has influence over Dream Realm

[low oracle]

By that logic the Radiance's prison should also be white, considering it sealed inside THK's pale shell.

[twin dragon]

Not necessarily true since the radiance is what's illuminating and having influence over that particular segment

[gentle aspen]

no, because she is currently inhabiting and breaking out of the seal

[whole holly]

beacon and pale shell are different things but pale king and radiance have influence over dream realms they reside in

[gentle aspen]

That…isn’t what happened? That’s his dream, he made it.

[twin dragon]

That's technically not his dream

[low oracle]

Are you of the opinion it is all one dream realm, or that there are several? Asking all of you btw.

[gentle aspen]

There wasn’t “conveniently empty space that happens to have white essence” that is the pale king’s

[twin dragon]

Kingsmould's

[gentle aspen]

He MADE the kingsmoulds

[low oracle]

If it was his dream, why the fuck is the White palace gone?

[twin dragon]

Yes, but he isn't a kingsmould

he doesn't share minds with it

[gentle aspen]

Because he took the physical white palace and put it into the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

He doesn’t have to “share minds” he created an artificial existence with his own power

It is his dream

[low oracle]

And the Dream Realm is the same one as that of the Radiance?

[whole holly]

seer says it is limitless

[twin dragon]

That doesn't make the artificial mind he created is his

[low oracle]

My question isn't really answered with this.

[gentle aspen]

He used his powers
he created the mind
he used his essence

[whole holly]

it would, he used Essence and Soul along with void to create it

[gentle aspen]

It does not literally have to be the pale king’s actual mind to be his

[twin dragon]

Part of it, then

[low oracle]

Then how is "his" dream defined??? Did he make it?

[gentle aspen]

I literally just said he did

[whole holly]

i mean Radiance navigated to other Dream Realms, reaching bugs minds, white palace is secluded with seal and kingsmoulds as defense systems

[low oracle]

*realm

[gentle aspen]

stop making unnecessary distinctions

[twin dragon]

It's a fragment of his own mind

[gentle aspen]

Dreams are part of the dream realm

[twin dragon]

and thought

[low oracle]

It isn't unnecessary though.

[whole holly]

Nightmare Realm is also secluded, once it was a part of dream realm i guess

[gentle aspen]

It is unnecessary
Dreams are part of the Dream Realm

Saying otherwise is blatantly incorrect

[whole holly]

it is based on game presents it to us

[low oracle]

Radiance navigated to dreams of bugs, which can be reached from within the dream realm. That at least would make most sense, if we consider godhome to function logically.

[twin dragon]

The dream realm ARE the dreams and minds of bugs

[low oracle]

By that logic, literally 90% of the Journal entries are irrelevant.

[twin dragon]

big net consisting in that

[gentle aspen]

this is complete non sequitur

[low oracle]

I don't follow.

[gentle aspen]

Exactly
Non sequitur means “it does not follow”

the thing you said doesn’t follow at all logically from what Nika said

[low oracle]

'this is complete it does not follow'?

What are you saying?

[gentle aspen]

You engaged in a logical fallacy

[low oracle]

How so?

[whole holly]

wdym, Dream Realm and Dreams aren't stated to be separate, death in Radiance's Dream and Pale King's dream is because they are higher beings and have means and reasons to, but they are same as dreams fundamentally, just with additional influence of higher beings

[whole holly]

i don't follow

[gentle aspen]

The logical fallacy is “non sequitur” which means what you said did not follow from the previous comment

[low oracle]

Then NKG apparently doesn't want to kill you? Because it sure as fuck seems like it.

[gentle aspen]

NKG doesn’t

Your death there means the ritual cannot continue

And nkg and the heart would die

[whole holly]

they are same, death in dream realm is unique to higher being influence, if they want to that it

[whole holly]

they want to complete the ritual, so we get to try again i guess

[low oracle]

If we call things irrelevant because they don't play a role in the main storyline, we might as well not discuss basically anything. The main story mostly is clearly elaborated.

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t at all what they said

they said it’s irrelevant because what you said is wrong

Dreams are part of the dream realm

The dream realm is literally just a place where dreams are

[low oracle]

Or they want to give the Grimmchild to someone with enough power for it to grow up. If someone weak got it, it wouldn't really be a good outcome for the grimmchild, should there be a stronger foe.

[whole holly]

i mean dreams are dream realm, distinction is meaningless because it has no ground as evidenced by other plausible explanations we provided, i was never talking about main story

[gentle aspen]

They aren’t “giving grimmchild to someone”

the purpose of the ritual is to propagate the next generation of Grimm

[low oracle]

But when nothing speaks against it and nothing speaks for it, why are we discussing this? I haven't seen an argument directly opposing my understanding if dream stuff.

[gentle aspen]

The charm exists to summon grimmchild to the bearer

[gentle aspen]

“Nothing speaks against it”
The game does

Dreams are in the dream realm

[low oracle]

The Grimmchild charm is literally given to you.

[gentle aspen]

Grimmchild exists outside of the charm

[low oracle]

Provide your evidence then.

[whole holly]

fact is we don't die and we complete ritual for them, which Pale King and Radiance have no similar reason to keep us alive in their Dreams/Dream Realm

[gentle aspen]

I don’t need evidence to say “dreams are in the dream realm” and the evidence is the entirety of seer’s dialogue

read it

[low oracle]

Pale King would have a reason, even if he doesn't actually know of it.

[gentle aspen]

This is quite literally just common sense

[whole holly]

Dreams and Dream Realm is always mentioned in same context, two isolated cases you chose have different explanations to what you propose

[whole holly]

ehh, idk about that Kingsmoulds attack us

[gentle aspen]

There is never a distinction made between the dream realm and dreams
You are the one claiming there is a distinction

You give the evidence there is

[gentle aspen]

If he doesn’t know it then he doesn’t have a reason to keep intruders alive

[low oracle]

You can't say "I don't need evidence" then tell me there is evidence but that I have to search it up myself. If you make a point, you have to back it up with your own research.

[whole holly]

exactly

[gentle aspen]

Yes I can

Play the game

Read seer’s dialogue

[low oracle]

I know.

[gentle aspen]

There is never any distinction made

[low oracle]

The distinction made:
-one disappears after certain events, the other doesn't
-you can die in one, not the other
-one is only related to Higher Beings (with one undefined exception), whilst the other isn't (necessarily)
-there are very noticable background features, hinting at different spaces
-one can lead to the other, which very much makes sense

[gentle aspen]

????

[low oracle]

!!!! (seriously what kind of discussion is this supposed to be?)

[kindred ingot]

hold on I had to leave for a sec what's the topic?

[low oracle]

Damn they be writing long.

[whole holly]

Radiance's realm doesn't disappear for gameplay reasons so we can get different endings, white palace is preserved along with Monarchs Servants, also realm is generic way to describe dreams overall, Godhome is Dream Realm. point it distinctions you made have other explanations

[gentle aspen]

“One disappears after certain events, the other doesn’t”
No?
“You can die in one, not the other”
This has been explained already, higher beings can lead to dream death
“One is only related to higher beings while the other isn’t.”
Literally every dream is tied to someone, this is a meaningless distinction
“There are noticeable background features, hinting at different spaces”
Because dreams are related to individuals, the entire expanse consists of everyone’s spaces
“One can lead to the other”
THEY ARE ALL DREAMS

[kindred ingot]

...is it memory/dream stuff again?

[whole holly]

yeah...

[kindred ingot]

well, I wouldn't say they're the same thing, but I wouldn't say that they're totally different and unrelated things

dreams can also be memories, and memories can also be dreams, but not all dreams are memories and not all memories are dreams

[low oracle]

Already the first point. What do you mean "no"?

[gentle aspen]

No, this is incorrect.
Memories are classified as being dreams

All memories are dreams

[kindred ingot]

you say it like it was a well-known fact

[gentle aspen]

that’s how this world works

[gentle aspen]

It is

[low oracle]

If the Radiance was purely created by a dream, who created her and why only her? Can they create infinite Higher Beings of such grand power?

[kindred ingot]

if it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion

[limpid summit]

Memories are dreams

They are made of essence from the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

Just because some people don’t know doesn’t mean it isn’t a well known fact

[kindred ingot]

wait, they are??

[gentle aspen]

And that isn’t even the current discussion at all

[low oracle]

Then why don't we see essence particles?

[gentle aspen]

WE DO

[kindred ingot]

I thought they were made of, idk, silk?

[limpid summit]

In SS because Hornet doesn’t have an Essence medium

[spark valve]

Dreams are minds
Memories are mental constructions
Memories are repeatedly used to refer to a type of dream

[gentle aspen]

😐

[kindred ingot]

since all memories we access have this weird silk web close to them

and we use the needolin to access them

[gentle aspen]

Hornet cannot manipulate essence

[limpid summit]

Silk is infused with soul and the dream realm has a connection to soul

[gentle aspen]

Silk is used as the intermediary

[limpid summit]

Space between body and soul

It’s just a silk medium

Still an Essence memory

[kindred ingot]

isn't silk just a form of soul?

[limpid summit]

The power system isn’t different

[low oracle]

Could you send a screenshot then? I haven't noticed them if they actually are present in the old heart fights.

[olive stag]

essence isn't exactly the right word, really

[gentle aspen]

It literally is

[limpid summit]

No but most of the silk we see is infused with it

[spark valve]

Also shaman awareness, WL, kingsmould moulds, ac soul shield

[limpid summit]

Silk isn’t physically a form of soul

[spark valve]

It is now

[kindred ingot]

ok, so, memories are a subset of dreams

[low oracle]

The silk in SS is just pure soul.

[low oracle]

Yes it is.

[kindred ingot]

certain dreams are memories

[limpid summit]

The silk in SS isn’t pure soul what

[kindred ingot]

and memories can be accessed using silk

[limpid summit]

It’s still biological and tangible

[gentle aspen]

It is

[spark valve]

It is now retcons go brr

[kindred ingot]

isn't it "soul spun to threads" or smth?

[limpid summit]

It is???

[gentle aspen]

Soul can also be tangible

[limpid summit]

Dude when

[spark valve]

Well maybe not pure soul but it’s spun from the soul of its creator

[gentle aspen]

they changed silk to being soul entirely

[kindred ingot]

I mean, the stuff Soul Master throws at us is pretty tangible

[spark valve]

Materium

[low oracle]

Literally says so in-game. Materium entry for silk. Play the damn game, and if you already did, read what it shows you before making such absurd claims.

[limpid summit]

Calm down lmao

[kindred ingot]

did they "change" it or did they just never explain silk?

[low oracle]

Then stop spreading misinformation.

[gentle aspen]

“Making such absurd claims” you have literally being claiming dreams and the dream realm are separate

at they very least he’s actually listening here

[kindred ingot]

well that's kinda stupid

[low oracle]

And your argument against it was? "Play the game"

[limpid summit]

Wait okay so

[gentle aspen]

BECAUSE THERE IS NEVER A FUCKING DISTINCTION EVER MADE

[limpid summit]

When TC said for Hornet soul and silk are inseparable

That doesn’t even matter cause that’s just how it is for everyone now?

[kindred ingot]

everyone calm down it's just a children's game

[spark valve]

Apparently

[limpid summit]

Wow

Okay thanks I didn’t know that

[gentle aspen]

Yes

[kindred ingot]

was silk ever explained in HK?

[limpid summit]

Not really

[kindred ingot]

cuz a retcon means there was something to begin with

[limpid summit]

There’s regular spider string like Beasts Den and Nosk

[kindred ingot]

you can't change what never was

[gentle aspen]

It was biologically something spun by spiders and not just something made by weavers

[kindred ingot]

Nosk? ...oh yeah Nosk

wtf's up with Nosk?

[spark valve]

Making parchment out of the stuff

[olive stag]

it's possible that there are... different? types of silk? i could see that as a possible explanation, but from what we have "all silk is soul" seems like the only valid conclusion

[limpid summit]

Though who know what that really is

[whole holly]

i mean GMS spins Silk from her Soul, Spiders have threads but Weavers infuse it with Soul to make Silk, Hornet can automatically turn Soul into Silk

[limpid summit]

Yeah I think Capital S Silk is still that

[low oracle]

This is just a cycle of me presenting actual info and you saying crap like "play the game", "read seer's dialogue", "no?". The entire time you have not once managed to give me an argument worth my time. You can think you are in the right, and so can I. But I don't have to argue against something, you won't even argue for. You do nothing but say things you expect to be agreed on.

[limpid summit]

But Silk capital S isn’t soul infused silk anymore it’s just soul in the form of silk

[spark valve]

The materium entry could just be talking about stuff relevant to the game but eh

[limpid summit]

I don’t know why that had to be changed

[whole holly]

Silk = Soul in form of a thread that GMS, Weavers and Hornet creates

[gentle aspen]

I have been giving you arguments that you refuse to address

[spark valve]

you gotta stop taking the bait man just ignore them

[gentle aspen]

Dreams are never distinct from the dream realm

Ever

[olive stag]

i'm also half sure i remember some in-game dialogue mentioning how hornet's skill of "infusing silk with soul" is a rare one, or something like that

[whole holly]

have i not have presented arguments?

[gentle aspen]

because all the weavers are dead

[olive stag]

though i could be misremembering

[gentle aspen]

That’s why its rare

[edgy nebula]

it doesnt say that

[spark valve]

Producing silk at all is the rare thing it’s not a distinction between producing normal and infused silk

[edgy nebula]

or it might

[gentle aspen]

And the only other living weaver can’t produce silk

[edgy nebula]

let me get the dialogue

[low oracle]

Then repeat one please. And I really don't want to see something not argumentative but just provocative.

[limpid summit]

🤪

[olive stag]

i'm talking specifically about how it refers to hornet infusing silk with soul, and not weaving it through soul

[whole holly]

it's still not rare because of GMS and she creates Silk on grand scale

[olive stag]

but again, i can't quite remember it

[gentle aspen]

gms is a god, dude.

And not well known either

[edgy nebula]

"Ahh ha! Truth, no doubt! In Pharloom, yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure, to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked.
It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now."

[kindred ingot]

can use Silk
can read thoughts
has no thoughts or can hide them from the Dream Nail
is apparently conscious enough in Godhome to make choices
has a seemingly infinite source of masks of any kind or can make its own
can fly but only sometimes
is more infected than the average bug but somehow mantains a complex sense of self

[limpid summit]

Grubs?

Okay uh

[edgy nebula]

it is still rare? gms is just one person lol

[gentle aspen]

nosk has nothing to do with grubs or pale ore

[limpid summit]

Nosk can’t use Silk capital S

[whole holly]

okay makes sense even though skill is perceived to be rare, there is lot of silk so why does it matter

[low oracle]

Yes you have, and good ones at that. It is okay to be of differing opinions and I can accept that. When one person however just acts like and insulting manchild, I don't want to hear them pretend they have actually presented good arguments. And that isn't referring to you.

[limpid summit]

It has spider like string but that’s probably just a biological function

[spark valve]

Nosk’s silk is something different probably

It’s even black

[gentle aspen]

Because the ability to do so

[olive stag]

oooh yeah that's it! i was misremembering

[limpid summit]

Nosk is a shapeshifter it doesn’t have infinite masks

[kindred ingot]

a Pale Ore is the reward for killing it, and also 4 grubs, 3 of them being mimics

[edgy nebula]

isnt it black? i dont think its silk, might just be some weird matter

[limpid summit]

They’re biological mimics

They evolved that way

[sinful nimbus]

Black silk, you say? A black thread, perhaps?

[kindred ingot]

the mask doesn't seem to be a part of it

[limpid summit]

Nosk is a shapeshifter

[sinful nimbus]

He did eat an awful lot of vessels

[low oracle]

Why the grub thing?

[gentle aspen]

I have quite literally been giving the exact same arguments as them
The only difference is I’m actually getting mad because you refused to address any of them

[heavy gyro]

Nosk is void ✅

[kindred ingot]

since it doesn't disappear when it dies

[limpid summit]

No it is

[gentle aspen]

because nosk is in the way of getting the pale ore

[limpid summit]

It’s just tangible enough to remain

[gentle aspen]

He has nothing to do with it

[limpid summit]

Main body blows to bits because its prolapsed stomach explodes

[kindred ingot]

ok, I'll take that one out

[whole holly]

yeah i get it, just misremembered and misunderstood something for a second

[low oracle]

Maybe I didn't see them beyond the constant "play the game".

[kindred ingot]

all of my other points still stand

Nosk is weird

[limpid summit]

Nosk is likely an intelligent ambush predator that can mask its thoughts and read the thoughts of others, driven into a charging maniac by Infection

But still retaining some guerrilla tactics

[spark valve]

Also a shapeshifter

[limpid summit]

True

[spark valve]

Kind of an important note

[low oracle]

I want to see an uninfected Nosk with an actual bossfight.

[whole holly]

So True AppleEgg

[limpid summit]

Insert Skynx cope etc etc

Thank you Nika

[edgy nebula]

skynx bossfight in the steel city dlc

[kindred ingot]

where does Nosk even get all those masks?

they're not part of its body

[limpid summit]

It shapeshifts?

[edgy nebula]

shapeshifts

[limpid summit]

It makes parts of its body

[kindred ingot]

when it dies, it explodes into infection, but the mask is still there

[limpid summit]

It grows into its true form straight from pretending to be TK

I just explained why

[low oracle]

Why can we assume Skynx to be Nosk though? They clearly had to take the mask of Styx for one. Otherwise they can talk, and don't seem to be capable of reading Hornet.

[spark valve]

Questionable if that’s even a ‘true’ form in any real sense

[limpid summit]

If they disguised as someone Hornet knows, she would kill them

[kindred ingot]

Nosk doesn't have a true form, Nosk's "faceless"

[limpid summit]

Better to have plausible deniability and steal the physical mask

[kindred ingot]

Nosk wears masks to have a "face"

[edgy nebula]

skynx's connections to nosk are pretty on the nose, even if it differs from it in behavior

[kindred ingot]

and hunt

[limpid summit]

She’s from Deepnest if a Nosk can read minds it would recognize she knows about Nosks

[edgy nebula]

no it doesnt

[low oracle]

It organically makes them probably. It can also change its body (Winged Nosk) so I wouldn't put that skill beyond its capabilities.

[limpid summit]

“Mimics the shape of creatures to lure prey to its lair”

[edgy nebula]

it reads your memories and takes the faces of your loved ones

[kindred ingot]

well, it doesn't have a real face, and no one would just follow a faceless bug

[limpid summit]

Yes it shapeshifts

[kindred ingot]

so it can just make masks that are more resistant than itself

[kindred ingot]

ok but how

[limpid summit]

Eh?

[kindred ingot]

how the fuck does Nosk do all that?

[spark valve]

Magic

[limpid summit]

Magic I don’t know

[edgy nebula]

that's the fun part, we have no idea

[limpid summit]

Some people thought it got some Soul powers from the pale ore way back when but that’s stupid

[olive stag]

i'm pretty sure it's not supposed to have an explanation...

[limpid summit]

Nosk touched pale…

[kindred ingot]

Nosk can read thoughts and use Silk, but also hide its own thoughts from the Dream Nail

[limpid summit]

It probably has some natural Soul/Essence affinity as a species

Hunter describes them in tandem

[edgy nebula]

It seemed entirely in touch with the memories around it. Did it really exist as i have seen it?

[kindred ingot]

also, Winged Nosk is weird

[low oracle]

Here is how I see it:
+:
-Skynx and Nosk are both mimicing something
-they both have a clear goal in mind
-:
-Nosk wouldn't need to steal the mask
-Skynx is satiated by simple silkeaters, unlike Nosk, which has a predator-type diet (or is it collecting them?)
-We never actually see Skynx to the extent we can say their differences match beyond the behaviour

[kindred ingot]

cuz it implies that Nosk can make choices in Godhome

the only other characters that show any sign of consciousness in Godhome are Hornet (half Weaver half Wyrm) and Grimm (Higher Being)

[olive stag]

"In the deepest darkness, there are beasts who wear faces stolen from your memories and pluck at the strings in your heart. Know yourself, and stay strong."

[edgy nebula]

the upside down mask, mimicked speech, no needolin dialogue, and forelimbs are really obviously meta references to nosk, to deny any connection would be really stupid, it's possible they are something different though

[kindred ingot]

Nosk is as mentally strong as Hornet of even Grimm

[olive stag]

i think it's part of nosk to mimick literally anything on your mind

[low oracle]

Not necessarily. Just because Nosk died after being slashed at its body, doesn't mean the mask is more resilient when it didn't get hit at all (assume that for the sake of the discussion). If we only striked its artificial mask, it would still die with the body intact. Really, it is just survivor bias.

[edgy nebula]

i wonder if lord fool is related to khann at all

they look somewhat similar

[low oracle]

I'm not denying connections, neither am I ignoring the obvious differences. But from what I can tell it doesn't add up to the point that we should jump to the conclusion that Skynx is confirmed to be the same species as Nosk.

[spark valve]

Do they

[kindred ingot]

both are crabs

[edgy nebula]

i mean, they have similar horns and a weird shell-mouth

lord fool also has a chestplate pauldron thing like khann

[low oracle]

Probably not, their eyes don't really match, neither does the colour of the body, the shape, etc.

[limpid summit]

I think they totally could be but as long as Skynx is mysterious I appreciate the opportunity to take the obvious similarities and run with them

[olive stag]

i'd say it's just a case of similar masks

[kindred ingot]

this implies that Nosk is in the same mental level as Higher Beings, and yet got infected

[surreal heron]

I don’t think Grimm is technically a higher being

[kindred ingot]

he is closely related to one

[low oracle]

Mentally Higher Beings aren't special. Don't get me wrong, they are no average bug, but Hornet can still make decisions the same way that the Pale King can. The main difference lies in the access to knowledge, power and intelligence. Nosk has all three, however not to the same degree as Higher Beings. Higher Beings also can't get infected.

[limpid summit]

I don’t think Nosk is more conscious in Godhome

It shapeshifts into winged Nosk because it has more space and by then TK has a bond with Hornet

It shapeshifts into TK base game because by then TC didn’t expect you to have a strong bond with any NPC

TK is on its own

Uumuu isnt more conscious because it summons Oomas

[kindred ingot]

it can make choices there (it chose to take the form of Hornet instead of the Knight)

[limpid summit]

That’s just what it would do

[gentle aspen]

i’ve been endlessly reiterating the point that no distinction is ever made
Every single time the dream realm is mentioned they use the term dreams

They never use the term “dream realm”
I have been saying this repeatedly and to read Seer’s dialogue because there is no difference and never was

[low oracle]

Grimm is the vessel of one, and his decisions are directly pulled from NKG's will. Personality-wise we don't get much from NKG but I believe Grimm is a bit more "chill".

[limpid summit]

The term dream realm is used in the official manual

[kindred ingot]

it doesn't really summon Oomas, it just screams loud as fuck and they appear

[spark valve]

Ah yes such a robust lore source which people are surely able to cite!

[low oracle]

I don't give a fuck, please just end the discussion. My opinion is what I am entitled too, and so are you to yours.

[limpid summit]

TK’s dev name is also there

[kindred ingot]

I mean... it's official

[low oracle]

It calls for them, or do you mean that? Summons as in makes them appear is probably not the case.

[limpid summit]

Yes

[spark valve]

It’s not gonna say anything to support the idea that dream realm is a completely separate thing from dreams certainly

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t manifest them

[spark valve]

Which is very funny that anyone would actually believe

[low oracle]

Dream Realm discussion is over guys...

[kindred ingot]

well, it can do some complex stuff in the real world, like move towards the Knight and throw lightning at it
summoning Oomas isn't that far-fetched

[kindred ingot]

cool, it was over a long time ago

it's Nosk time

[gentle aspen]

This isn’t a matter of “personal opinion” you are incorrect

[low oracle]

Xero and Nosk are my favourite non-HBs

[kindred ingot]

(and Uumuu time to some extent)

[low oracle]

Amaphia probably.

[kindred ingot]

what

what's Amaphia?

[limpid summit]

Amaphia nuts

[low oracle]

Kinda complicated for me to explain, but I believe it applies here.

[kindred ingot]

I googled it and nothing showed up

[limpid summit]

I’ve never heard this one

[olive stag]

only high-level discourse in sk-lore today guys

[limpid summit]

Oh

Amathia?

Dude 💔

[edgy nebula]

i prefer ahistoryia

[kindred ingot]

OOOHHH

yeah that makes sense

[spark valve]

the lack of self awareness is insane

[gentle aspen]

On whose end

[kindred ingot]

no results

[low oracle]

Both ends. Quite funny actually.

[olive stag]

"funny" is the word i'd use, personally

[kindred ingot]

ANYWAY, I think we shouldn't argue with someone who doesn't want to change their mind

[edgy nebula]

im making a joke cause it's a-math-ia

[kindred ingot]

a

ok then

[gentle aspen]

I’m not being willfully ignorant

It literally is you

[olive stag]

[gentle aspen]

You said “i dont care im entitled to my opinion”

????

[limpid summit]

What was the Shade Trap for

[kindred ingot]

ANYWAY, I THINK WE SHOULDN'T ARGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO CHANGE THEIR MIND

[prime mantle]

walking into drama

[gentle aspen]

#hk-lore

[limpid summit]

Broooo

[gentle aspen]

You’re right
Requires mod action

[kindred ingot]

for... trapping... shades

[spark valve]

bro has not done snared silk

[limpid summit]

What if someone wants to use Silksong topics

To explain

[kindred ingot]

no I don't think it does

[spark valve]

silksong topics aren't gonna be relevant here

[gentle aspen]

It does actually

Read pins

[foggy fractal]

they aren't? I thought this was silksong-lore?

[prime mantle]

isnt the act 3 key a shade trap

[gentle aspen]

no

it summons void not shades

[low oracle]

That's the main issue with HK lore, it is basically useless whenever you want to look beyond the limited information of the first game. So technically Herrah is still a non-weaver in Hollow Knight Lore.

[olive stag]

snare setter

[kindred ingot]

...what am I supposed to be looking for

[frosty gate]

What the hell did i just step into

[prime mantle]

what's a shade trap then, the thing jiji does?

[olive stag]

the shamans do some crazy modifications to turn it into a portal? i think

[kindred ingot]

the thing in the Colosseum

[gentle aspen]

Channel rules

[kindred ingot]

where your Shade goes

[prime mantle]

i forgot entirely about that tbh

[kindred ingot]

I'm still confused, why is someone disagreeing with you against them?

[gentle aspen]

[foggy fractal]

• Please ensure topics of conversation have ground within the game or official sources.

[gentle aspen]

I disagree with people all the time
Ignoring evidence isn’t allowed

[kindred ingot]

it's kinda funny how every time I see you you're really mad at someone

[whole holly]

i mean respect is supposed to be mutual in channel rules

[prime mantle]

what is this a debate club? being wrong is illegal

[olive stag]

tbh, i think this is one of those cases where something exists purely for gameplay convenience

[foggy fractal]

hopefully jojoker won't be mad at me!

[low oracle]

It isn't, the rules literally say so. My reasons have ground.

[gentle aspen]

They don’t

[limpid summit]

Joker was there anything else in genkidamatsuri

[gentle aspen]

Go to another channel

Ajd idk

[whole holly]

he was mad at me yesterday, although we since had agreed on lot of stuff

[kindred ingot]

I mean, if it's not a conversation topic, it doesn't need to be grounded on anything

[low oracle]

[kindred ingot]

and they're actively trying to make it not a conversation topic

[gentle aspen]

The “conversation topic” was them claiming dreams arenmt in the dream realm

[prime mantle]

i mean i read up and the rule just says topics of conversation have to have ground within the game. which means you have to be on topic not "objectively right"

[olive stag]

we really like to ruminate here don't we

[kindred ingot]

if they claimed it they probably had reason to

[gentle aspen]

“Having ground” means having evidence

[kindred ingot]

we already tried to kill the topic but some people don't let it die

[prime mantle]

im sure they had at least some ground to speak or interpret on? literally who cares this much

oh youre wrong thats illegal

[whole holly]

yeah, diamond has provided other reasons for his conclusions, after we provided him evidence, he was accepting in my experience

[gentle aspen]

They don’t

[kindred ingot]

i was about to say that

[gentle aspen]

Why are y’all being intentionally misrepresentative of what happened

[surreal heron]

What if the real dream realm was the friends we made along the way

[kindred ingot]

maybe you're just mad at them and therefore are refusing to accept that they had any reason to believe in what they believed

[low oracle]

Nope. "Having ground" means that you have grounds to speculate. If a theory was based on evidence, it isn't a theory. That's is the equivalent of saying "I believe vaccines save lives" when there is evidence already confirming it.

[kindred ingot]

no one believes something for no reason

[foggy fractal]

maybe team cherry will reveal this in dlc

[olive stag]

oh boy i do love #sk-lore !

[whole holly]

from my experience you were accepting of my counterevidence and also providing alternative reasoning of your beliefs, i can respect that, in fact i found our discussion mutually respectful

[gentle aspen]

That’s not the point dude

[prime mantle]

bc it doesnt speak to a healthy conversational environment in a lore channel if someone can post a theory and then get hit with wiki claims and get shut down because they didn't interpret based on the right line of dialouge on the intentionally-vague-game

[gentle aspen]

They were ignoring evidence that isn’t allowed stop going “oh you’re mad at them”

[kindred ingot]

being ignorant is not against the rules

[gentle aspen]

Ignoring evidence is against the rules here

[kindred ingot]

I don't think that's the case

[gentle aspen]

😐

[kindred ingot]

from what I'm reading

with my eyes

[spark valve]

You can’t make a rule not to be an idiot

[kindred ingot]

from the message you said I should read

[gentle aspen]

having grounds means having evidence

[spark valve]

Minimodding a mod is crazy work

[kindred ingot]

nothing there says "ignoring evidence is not allowed"

[edgy nebula]

isnt one of the main rules in this server to have common sense

[kindred ingot]

having evidence and ignoring evidence are different

[spark valve]

Sure but that usually is because it violates other rules not just existentially not being stupid

[whole holly]

they provided us with counterevidence and plausible reasoning, even if i don't necessarily agree with it, him wanting to separate Realms based on proximity to higher beings isn't out of bounds even if i don't agree with his terminology for it

[foggy fractal]

its bile work as some would say

[kindred ingot]

?

[surreal heron]

Might be some… bile water

[whole holly]

regardless we all should have equal access to discussion regardless if someone (regardless of their status and credibility) doesn't agree with us

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t what they were arguing, though

They were arguing dreams and the dream realm aren’t the same

That they are separate things

[limpid summit]

“The expanse in dream in past was split” I don’t think it’s dream heart and Silk

[foggy fractal]

... say that again?

[limpid summit]

It’s Dreams and Nightmares

I used to pray for times like this

[kindred ingot]

well, just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it has no evidence

[spark valve]

Wait was somebody arguing that holy shit hollow knight fans are literally illiterate

[limpid summit]

Maybe I’m misconstruing

[kindred ingot]

I mean, Mattpatt had evidence to claim that the Knight was the reincarnation of the Pale King

[edgy nebula]

joker this argument seems very offtopic i think

[kindred ingot]

but we all know that's wrong

[whole holly]

from what i interpreted he was trying to come up with terminology for different phenomena, even if he chose wrong terminology to create

[edgy nebula]

no it isnt i trust matpat with my life

[gentle aspen]

there is literally no evidence to clam that dreams and the dream realm aren’t the same

[whole holly]

he does that often, even if it doesn't line up with game terms, he tries to make them accurate as he can

[surreal heron]

The knight is sans

[kindred ingot]

then they wouldn't be arguing about it

[whole holly]

what are you talking about AppleEgg, can you elaborate

[gentle aspen]

????

[kindred ingot]

I believe in basic human decency and that people use their brains most of the time

[gentle aspen]

People argue things without evidence all the time you weren’t here they were literally arguing that dreams and the dream realm were separate

[whole holly]

they provided us with plausible distinctions

[kindred ingot]

saying the same thing over and over again does not help your case

[spark valve]

None of this is lore

[wet walrus]

Theories: How would a boss challenge would be implemented in silksong as a dlc. Like I am sure there can't be "godhome" since "godseeker" claims Hallownest has the strongest "gods" (such as massive moss charger) as opposed to other pretentious "gods" of other lands. So how would they implement it?

[spark valve]

If you want to squabble with joker dm him

[limpid summit]

It wasn’t me making the argument so I don’t want to make things up

[gentle aspen]

Elegy of the Deep

[whole holly]

this is his evidence, despite that i presented counterevidence, he has grounds to reason for them

[foggy fractal]

squabble like a boxing match?

[limpid summit]

Dude don’t send them to the poor man’s dms

[kindred ingot]

that... doesn't answer much

[wet walrus]

Makes sense

[kindred ingot]

also your name is kinda weird

[whole holly]

you clarified something to me and i don't understand what it was about

[wet walrus]

I am just a regular man tired of Pharloom.

[twin dragon]

pale king DID do a lot of shit wrong

lwk makes pk a better character

[kindred ingot]

but Pale King did some things wrong

[whole holly]

thank you Nubbie

[kindred ingot]

for example, build parkour objects with Void

[twin dragon]

this dumbfuck listened to a pseudoscience podcast and thought his plan would work

[kindred ingot]

or kill multiple children

[whole holly]

it makes him morally complex but net positive character, that's a point of the game, i am pretty sure

[surreal heron]

Or build parkour objects with saws

[twin dragon]

I'd say hes closer to neutral

[low oracle]

• Please ensure topics of conversation have ground within the game or official sources.
• Remember that everyone has different levels of understanding so treat others with respect and be open to input, whether they support or reject your own ideas.

Just because you can argument against it, doesn't mean it has no ground. That is what a theory is; speculation based on evidence. That neither means the evidence confirms it, nor does it mean the evidence has to directly imply it.

I have stated things within the game, and you have stated things outside the game, both things ultimately are how we understood it.

I won't make arguments either, as that is pointless to the actual importance of understanding how the rules apply. Something undefined has no right or wrong, it has only the spectrum of more likely and less likely possibilities. And no matter how unlikely the possibility is, unless we can prove it wrong it is allowed. If it was too ridicoulus it would have already been off my description of the spectrum.

So please, just accept differening opinions. There is no harm for me to understand things as I do.

[whole holly]

true

[twin dragon]

Hallownest was flawed

BUT at least it wasn't build upon slavery

[prime mantle]

and it did... posthumously

[twin dragon]

I am going to CRUCIFY you

[kindred ingot]

uh. well. hm. about that.

[twin dragon]

for your TAKES

[whole holly]

i mean with relative morality in the game, Pale King might have been hero for majority of Hallownest's population

[low oracle]

He essentially just did all the wrong things for the right reasons.

[wet walrus]

Tbf the worst part imo about vessels is that pk knew the doom of hallownest was inevitable and so he was. So he dumped countless of his children regretful of their very being just so he can delay what was inevitable.

[whole holly]

your reasoning was valid and sound, even if i disagreed and argued against it

[olive stag]

that's actually a very interesting thing to think about... we know some (most?) bugs in hallownest got their consciousness from the pale king. did they have free will?

[twin dragon]

I mean

[whole holly]

exactly

[twin dragon]

I guess they did

[kindred ingot]

the. hm. the maggots.

[twin dragon]

but semi

[twin dragon]

(Hey, shh)

[olive stag]

hallownest segregation...

[gentle aspen]

Yes they had free will

[twin dragon]

The bugs definitely held the king in higher regard

[wet walrus]

Caste system in hallownest 😭

[kindred ingot]

false knight. their whole backstory.

there was slavery in hallownest.

lots of it.

[twin dragon]

But

but but but but

[limpid summit]

There wa systemic racism not slabery

[twin dragon]

hallownest wasn't built on it

[olive stag]

how do we know that?

[prime mantle]

this is odd bc nothing like this is brought up elsewhere iirc (might be wrong). it's just the maggots

[kindred ingot]

it still existed, we can't forget it

[twin dragon]

What i'd like to see is how grand mother silk ruled pharloom in her prime

in a future elegy of the deep expansion

[kindred ingot]

not very well, since all Weavers hated it

[low oracle]

That begs the question, where do the common bugs live? The forgotten crossroads and dirtmouth are seemingly far bigger than seen in-game, but did they only live in those two places?

[twin dragon]

so we don't have a weakened raging monarch to compare to pk

[twin dragon]

Weavers are ego maniacs

[kindred ingot]

the crossroads aren't a living place

they probably lived in the other spires of the City of Tears

[wet walrus]

That's not all, there is literal cannibalism in city of tears and right next to it is the soul sanctum where there is a massive pile of corpses.

[olive stag]

this is interesting to think about also, mostly because we never fight any common bug in city of tears

[twin dragon]

And weavers were treated differently anyways

[low oracle]

She basically didn't rule over a kingdom, since the pilgrims didn't follow anyone at that time.

[twin dragon]

We've told several times she did

we just

[kindred ingot]

Pale King is not the best ruler, he just looks good in comparison with the Conductors

[twin dragon]

the history on that has been erased

[kindred ingot]

we actually do

[low oracle]

I meant the crossroad places where Salubra, Sly, Menderbug lived.

[wet walrus]

I am sure false knight embraced the infection like traitors for more power. Though no confirmation.

[kindred ingot]

there's one in King's Station, some between the spires, and probably more but I'm forgettinfg about them

[twin dragon]

would be plausible

[edgy nebula]

gms dont rule shit and she's still called a monarch 💔

she is a fake and a fraud

[pale narwhal]

for the most part, Salubra is whats left of a little village in there

[twin dragon]

we don't know

that's what pmo

we don't fkin know

[low oracle]

Wasn't the citadel built after her imprisonment though?

[twin dragon]

we've only told her relationship with the weavers

[surreal heron]

The POOR oart of CoT

[twin dragon]

Before that

But we don't know anything

[foggy fractal]

a... a bum???

[low oracle]

Bro you really gotta stop that...

[limpid summit]

GMS didn’t rule common bugs like a queen but she did fight for influence with Karm and Khann

[kindred ingot]

the other spires

[surreal heron]

Exactly

[twin dragon]

karm and khann weren't alive during gms's rule

the old hearts were

[limpid summit]

Huh

[low oracle]

?

[kindred ingot]

they... what?

they ARE the old hearts

wdym???

[low oracle]

What is he saying bro...

[whole holly]

it was systemic prejudice and casteism, caste system is adjacent to salve system as it separates classes and society reinforces it

[twin dragon]

The old hearts are hereditary

[kindred ingot]

have you played the game?

[limpid summit]

The Wyrm wasn’t alive the Pale King was

[kindred ingot]

what.

[limpid summit]

Yeah they very well might be

[kindred ingot]

no

ofc not

wtf

[limpid summit]

But it’s these incarnations specifically

That were around

[whole holly]

true, but Nyleth being ancient heart of shellwood makes no sense

[pale narwhal]

no. we literally see the memories of them being alive way back before the citadel ruined their lands

[limpid summit]

Karm gave the Skarr strength to resist GMS, Khann says alone against the pale light

[low oracle]

Tf kinda shit am I reading?

[whole holly]

they are Last Successors of the Old Hearts, meaning they aren't first

[limpid summit]

Hearts manifests in the lands

[edgy nebula]

hearts are hereditary, it's just that khann, karm, etc were indeed alive during gms's time

[kindred ingot]

oh.

[limpid summit]

Its not like older variants of the hearts fought GMS

[surreal heron]

Grnk

[twin dragon]

Def not karm as she was young during the haunting

[kindred ingot]

wise words, Snail Shaman

[twin dragon]

But khann maybe

BUT WE DONT KNOW

[low oracle]

The Old Hearts probably only started to have conflicts with GMS after the Weavers devised a plan to stop her. The citadel directly had problems with most old hearts, hence I assume the conflict didn't start from nothing.

[twin dragon]

Maybe shellwood is a cycle of regrowth

BUT WE DONT KNOW

[edgy nebula]

khann mentions pale light, id say he was pretty obviously alive

[whole holly]

but nyleth being ancient still doesn't make sense to me... idk about her, did she inherit the heart but was she first seed

[twin dragon]

It could be the citadel but yk

idk

[whole holly]

we don't know anything at all

[twin dragon]

The first seed of shellwood, not wtv ecosystem was before her

[low oracle]

"Successors" just means children.

[kindred ingot]

I think it started during the Conductors' time, since most ecological events happen during that time

[twin dragon]

it could be very well a cycle

[pale narwhal]

we literally get her heart from a fountain
she doesnt even have a body anymore

[prime mantle]

hornet tells everyone the hearts being subjugated was gms' fault but verdania was just straight up citadels idk what to think tbh

[twin dragon]

The haunting killed verdania

[olive stag]

i'd assume that's her burial place...

[twin dragon]

The citadel kept their deal

surprisingly

[prime mantle]

ohhh right she tells him they wouldve died anyway which is true

[gentle aspen]

Well she is still alive
The Old Hearts sustain the environments they inhabit
Karak however was externally drained causing a lot of it to become sand

[edgy nebula]

when gms's threads sprung out they probably tore verdania's lands apart, yknow? like how they do in the high halls arena

[pale narwhal]

where are you getting this info?

[twin dragon]

Gp dialogue

[whole holly]

i assumed her body was in state similar to what we see isma in, part of wood ans something adjacent

[twin dragon]

hol on

[low oracle]

Probably during Weaver and Conductor rule, at the stages of the Conductors being granted the rule. First Sinner at least had to be imprisoned at that time, since her cage utilizes Silk runes but is also gilded with the citadel sigil.

[twin dragon]

or they killed everyone

nobody to sustain the ecosystem

[edgy nebula]

that's possible aswell yeah

[low oracle]

I think it was just the waste that killed the environment.

[whole holly]

then it wouldn't be same heart dude, nyleth could be exception to that general rule i guess

[prime mantle]

haunting is not that savage anywhere else until act 3, i doubt this

[twin dragon]

I mean it could

very well

[gentle aspen]

Nyleth at the very least is the same bearer of the old hearts

[twin dragon]

the old hearts are cycles

[low oracle]

High halls arena isn't damaged either.

[gentle aspen]

the others are successors

[twin dragon]

Or maybe nyleth pulls a grayroot and rebirths itself

[gentle aspen]

well I wouldn’t just claim she does that

seems to be specific to greyroot

[pale narwhal]

the dialogue where he calls his partner naive for making the deal?

[twin dragon]

Yeah because, say the thing folks!

[gentle aspen]

and whatever she is

[twin dragon]

WE DONT KNOW!

[whole holly]

she is first seed and last successor of old heart, also mortal power

[low oracle]

She isn't a parasite.

[prime mantle]

do we know the others are successors

[twin dragon]

Sent it above

[edgy nebula]

yes

[twin dragon]

Not in the same way but yk

[gentle aspen]

Yes
they’re the latest rulers

[surreal heron]

Nyleth will return in Avengers: Doomsday

[olive stag]

@prime mantle

[low oracle]

Or you know, she just exists.

[edgy nebula]

karmelita united the already present skarr tribes in her service, khann is the lord born last to rule, and green prince and his partner inherited their powers iirc

[twin dragon]

Like she grows into shellwood, shellwood eventually collapses, the fauna adapt to another "seed", which then regrows

[prime mantle]

oh cool, i forgot this

[olive stag]

this dialogue seems to imply Nyleth is also a successor

[low oracle]

Maybe she replants herself with spores. So she is technically a successor, but doesn't really have the qualities of one.

[prime mantle]

she is called the first seed though isn't she? maybe there used to be something different in shellwood before her?

[whole holly]

guys do we know that Isma and Nyleth are related or is that a theory, maybe Nyleth is not actually a statue but her petrified/constricted, like Isma and Weavers

[twin dragon]

Cool theory but we dont know

throwing shit at a wall while blind

[prime mantle]

its not like the hearts have to stay the same right?

[whole holly]

no she is first, shellwood sprung from her

[twin dragon]

I mean the old hearts are all sort of perpetuating their own thing

[prime mantle]

no as in, before it was shellwood

[twin dragon]

so their purpose must've been similar

Nyleth's the first of shellwood

[whole holly]

she was there before shellwood, and she is still same incarnation

[twin dragon]

not wtv other eco was before shellwood

[olive stag]

judging by how all Old Hearts are said to be owned by successor, we could assume there was something else before here

[twin dragon]

or maybe it was blasted steps idk

[edgy nebula]

i wonder if sister splinter was going to be the next holder of the heart after nyleth

[olive stag]

not shellwood, but something else

[whole holly]

Grimm with ritual

[twin dragon]

She contributes to its collapse

so nope

[low oracle]

Nyleth has more similarities to Unn than Isma, so we don't really know any of that. Pretty sure that Isma isn't just a plant either.

[low oracle]

She's a parasite so no.

[twin dragon]

I'd think that flora would adapt into an organism similar to nyleth, to eventually regrow

[prime mantle]

if she's the first seed, and a successor, whatever she's succeeding isn't a seed

[twin dragon]

with the power of the heart

[whole holly]

powerwise sure isma<nyleth<unn