sk-lore

[whole holly]

So I think that Fayforn is old heart , she doesn’t have kingdom but claim over territory like Nyleth

I wish we got Monomon like creature in Sea of Sorrows

[twilit crest]

Can I see what they said :0 forward it pls

[edgy nebula]

it's possible, but if she isnt why cant hornet kill her

guess she's too busy fighting dying street tiers

[craggy smelt]

too fluffy to even contemplate

[frosty gate]

Why are we saying Fayforn is an old heart?

[edgy nebula]

she’s called fell heart of frost and she’s strong or something

there isnt much proof

but mt, fay does seem pretty unnaturally cold for the hk verse, the normal surface, which is even higher than mt. Fay, isnt chilly

[stray grove]

Fayforn being an old heart is baseless

Fell heart of frost is just a reference to its temperament and the environment in which it resides it doesn’t necessarily indicate that it’s “central” to or the cause of the cold climate

It just means cold hearted/stoic and has a double meaning because it’s meant to serve as a clue

Also all four old hearts are mentioned by Moss Druid

Fayforn isn’t

(And Hornet doesn’t kill her yes)

[frosty gate]

The problem with the surface has never been that it's cold, it's just a wasteland

I wouldn't say it's unnaturally cold

We don't exactly know what is natural in this place

[spark valve]

<@&283547423706447872>

[frosty gate]

??

[foggy fractal]

probably a scam message that was deleted quickly

[muted lantern]

It was not.

It was a suggestive gif i think

[foggy fractal]

🤔 then a scam message that was deleted slowly ? man these mods are washed !

[light verge]

can a guy just not ping mods for fun?

[foggy fractal]

normally no

but since its #sk-lore (where all the cool kids are) we get permission

[light verge]

that’s crazy, also hello again ando

[ocean crown]

Cool kids that argue to hell (earlier we were all arguing for 3 hours about fire and silk and wispfire)

[foggy fractal]

hello shal

[marsh bison]

Yeha sorry I had to go to the link first

One million dollars in my bank account

[edgy nebula]

damnnnnn i gotta leave the server and go on X to beg elon for money Right Now!

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ yeah same I could use a million dollars too

[covert night]

lumble the unlucky back on the grind again

[heavy gyro]

Where does moss druid talk about green prince

[edgy nebula]

likely when she says “in shell”

[spark valve]

Moss Druid doesn’t have a clear reference to the princes the way they do for the others

If you assume there has to be a reference to them it would be that but it’s also possible they don’t reference that heart

For the shamans to exclude it there’s some difference which could also be why the moss Druid doesn’t mention them

[brazen cedar]

wait how does druid tell u lol

[spark valve]

Tell you what

[brazen cedar]

abt karmelita

and khann

etc.

[spark valve]

Beat beat beat!
In coral, in shell...
And why not here?!
Beating, beating...
The world's rhythms...
In branches, in fields!

The smell is right! Like the others! But very young! Oh, voice of the woods! Oh, dance of the queen! Oh... oh! Beat harder, let us hear it! Oh! Ohhhhhhhh!
Mmm. Mmm!

[brazen cedar]

damn. is this in act 3?

[spark valve]

In coral being a reference to Khann, branches and voice of the woods being Nyleth, fields and dance of the queen karmelita

[spark valve]

No

[brazen cedar]

i shouldve talked to my guy more. i stayed away after he gave me the worst charms in the game

[spark valve]

Apparently they’re trying to become or at least generate a heart like the others

[lone folio]

I'm pretty sure all of that singing dialogue actually refers to all four of them:
In coral: Khanna
In shell: clover dancers
In branches: nyleth
In fields: karmelita

[craggy smelt]

what about 'shell' suggests the Princes?

shell often refers to a body

[lone folio]

The cogwork dancer stuff with his soul and shell being turned into the cogwork dancers

Green prince has much more dialogue relating to shells then khann who himself doesn't have a single line of shell dialogue

[craggy smelt]

hrmm

maybe

if Moss Druid is able to sense the power in the Prince, and it's twin in the dancer's shell

[edgy nebula]

will your next username be voltyak or yakvyrm

[craggy smelt]

I did have Yakvyrm on the list, but it's not my favorite

still, it's probably only a matter of time

[half zenith]

DLC speculation. What do you think sirens look like in bug world? There ARE going to be sirens, it just makes sense in the land of song. I wonder what they will look like and how they will work

Horsehair worms (the siren is inside you)? It’d be fun for a larval stage of a siren to be endoparasitic maybe, driving anything it gets inside to drown itself

But ehhhhh where’s the fucking song

Knowing Hornet’s luck, tying yourself to a mast to hear the siren song is the solution to some DLC puzzle requiring an ancient song only the sirens know or some bs

[craggy smelt]

like the mythical siren?
the wraiths in the Mist are kind've like that, to my mind
maybe more like a banshee though... a screaming ghost

the greyroot parasite is inspired by horsehair worms I think, at least in part

[half zenith]

Wrong again! Banshees don’t Do That

They scream out of morning when a family member dies

[half zenith]

Fair point

[craggy smelt]

eh, the pop culture depiction of banshees almost always depicts them as screaming ghosts

[half zenith]

Fair point. I have strong feelings about it being taken out of context from the original myths

ANYWAY. I do wonder if Silksong would go with harpy type sirens, mermaid type sirens or both. I love when fantasy worlds have multiple takes on the same monster

[craggy smelt]

some more bird-bugs would be fun

a flock of NPCs on a sea-side promontory, singing

waves crashing below

[split iron]

I know it's unlikely but I would love it if Garmond and Zaza are actually from the village of lions

[half zenith]

How in the world would sirens even work? Gameplay wise? You could just declare Hornet has player character immunity privileges but that’s boring

[craggy smelt]

they could fill the region with a song that eventually overwhelms and damages you or knocks you out and ejects you from the area
you can stave off the effects by using the Needolin to ring bells in the region
like Mt. Fay's cold mechanic and heat sources

[half zenith]

I envision that Hornet has partial immunity -she can resist it, but it still inflicts a debuff that straight up yanks control from the player and forces you to fight to shake off the debuff and regain control (alternatively if you accidentally get the debuff you have to go somewhere you can’t hear the song to fully shake it off while fighting yourself the entire time)

[craggy smelt]

oh noo, control reversal...

[half zenith]

Not that. More like- the player moves without your input and you have to fight to move on your own and regain control, while walk speed is slowed down (and even slower when you’re fighting it)

Dangerous if in the wrong time and place, or if you can’t shake it off before Hornet inevitably drowns herself or gets eaten by a siren (thankfully you can’t hear the song underwater)

[half zenith]

So like- the metroidvania version of the Pokémon confusion debuff basically, functionally

[muted lantern]

Honestly My best guess is that village of lions is shakras village, and shes an antlion. Some elements of her design remind me of the orange antlion. We know bugs like vespa lack wings despite being bees and the tails are similar.

[half zenith]

She looks more like a ichneumon’s wasp to me

[split iron]

That would be cool too honestly I just want more about Garmond and Zaza💔 it's just hopium that sounds more likely

[split iron]

I thought she was a dragon fly

[half zenith]

She reads as a wasp to me

[split iron]

That too just she doesn't have a needle

[muted lantern]

My main isssue with it is her tail looks more like a dragonflies with no point near the end, it's rounded and very long. With bugs like vespa we see a point at the end of her abdomen despite the stinger not having a different color.

[half zenith]

Naw that’s an ovipositor. Parasitoid wasps have very notably long abdomens

[half zenith]

If she has a stinger and I’m correct about the type of wasp she is then her venom would be akin to a deadly/disabling chemical weapon… definitely a war crime

…well, we’ll eventually learn what species she is

[split iron]

Well I mean she really can be anything nothing has been confirmed yet and I like just hearing different ideas about what she is just I personally believe she's a dragon flu

[half zenith]

And hey, if I’m wrong and she’s not a wasp, that’s prime opportunity for Hornet to ALSO just assume she’s a wasp bc projection and have an amusing awkward dialogue exchange

[muted lantern]

Still, her tail doesnt have any point, it's very rounded.

[half zenith]

So? Art style

Also the actual ovipositor part can be twice as long as the wasp itself and is hidden when not in use

[edgy nebula]

https://youtu.be/77Y3nukti60?si=baGWJgkVFvlk7vT_ this video is hilarious

bosses ranked by strength in lore

they put lost lace above absrad

and they put khann and bell eater right below nkg

he glazes bell eater so much oh my days

[dire lynx]

most of the vid was alright but it went to shit near the end lmao

[twin dragon]

Lost lace is the void doe

also bell eater's a random ass predator centipede lmfao

[covert night]

why tho

[covert night]

she's a void infected creature, not void itself

there is no way lost lace is stronger than absrad

[limpid dock]

why did karak dry up

[dire lynx]

the citadel or the weavers pre citadel

[limpid dock]

what did they do exactly

[dire lynx]

we dont know lmao

[twin dragon]

could be khann being in stasis

[twin dragon]

by herself? nah

within the void? game changer

[heavy gyro]

Pharloom's void isn't unified so absrad still solos

[twin dragon]

Not if you plunge her inside of it

I mean ll could weaken absrad just like TK did

but tk is too fucking strong

[covert night]

so by that logic hornet is stronger than void since she beat lost lace

[twin dragon]

lmao what

[twin dragon]

That ain't my point

Plus im not arguing against the fact

[covert night]

i assumed 1v1 fight

cuz absrad can't even get into the void

[twin dragon]

ya

[dire lynx]

didnt put much thought into it, but did i do a better job than the vid?

[twin dragon]

what is this exactly?

[dire lynx]

same as the video, power of the bosses

lore based

[twin dragon]

I'd say lower clover and cogwork

watcher at the edge seems like a great soldier

lace isn't that proficient with the pin

[dire lynx]

he probably was insane in his prime, but hes stiffened and weak from the lack of water after an age

[stray fog]

Zote solos the radiance

Why is thk so low?

They gotta be sly level

[twin dragon]

he's a disabled fighter

really disabled

[stray fog]

True

[twin dragon]

I'd say sly should be in S tier

or high A tier

[near thistle]

Shakra was C for me. She’s just so fast and hard to hit with lots of health.

[stray fog]

Most of those are higher beings and their descendants

[dire lynx]

this is lore, not enjoyment

[twin dragon]

this is a lore boss strength tier list

[twin dragon]

zote shouldn't be there imo

Like yeah he's ultra strong but does he compare to basically gods?

[stray fog]

Gpz is fan fiction by Bretta so she can make him as strong as she wants

[dire lynx]

i specifically put him below all the gods

[twin dragon]

Tk was stronger than such fanfiction lmao

beat his ass to a point where she no longer believed in him lmfao

[stray fog]

Tk is the strongest

Of all

[twin dragon]

Ya but i'd say zote still isn't this strong

[stray fog]

I guess he should be in A tier

[dire lynx]

zote is an imaginary perfect hero, so i put him above all the mortal/mortal-ish bugs

[twin dragon]

almost perfect

this bum still trips and falls

[dire lynx]

arguably shouldnt even be on the list, i didnt put any of the other dream versions for a reason

but gpz is funny

[twin dragon]

also hornet above ll is questionable

[stray fog]

Is the traitor lord not A tier?

[twin dragon]

as im pretty sure ll would shred hornet if she's without the everbloom

[stray fog]

The weaver queen would be very strong

[twin dragon]

this is base hornet

[dire lynx]

they are on par, can swap either of those two around

[twin dragon]

I'd say ll is far above hornet on the power scale tbf

[heavy gyro]

Wouldnt pinstress be above fourth chorus since seamstress defeated it and they're likely similar in strength

[stray fog]

Hornet from hk is probably weaker than the one from sk I think

[twin dragon]

the dark sharp liquid imprinted upon an already good warrior

[twin dragon]

this is obv sk hornet or else she wouldn't be this high

[twin dragon]

though she defeated chorus with a trick

[stray fog]

Sk hornet ranges between struggling to walk and killing a god

Which one do we select

[twin dragon]

[dire lynx]

pinstress is well past her prime, same for seamstress

[twin dragon]

Also THK should be much higher imo

[stray fog]

Yes

[twin dragon]

they're still able to utilize their combat skills

[stray fog]

One tier higher

[stray fog]

All the criticism aside,
This is pretty good for a first try

[dire lynx]

everyone above thk is able to utilise their combat capabilities more effectively, thk is in such a bad shape by the end of the game

i want to make one with every character now ngl

[heavy gyro]

Uumuu solos everyone except quirrel

[stray fog]

Ping me when you post that

[dire lynx]

oke

[near thistle]

Ah.

Maybe move Watcher up one. You don’t just survive for many generations without moving by being a C rank.

[dire lynx]

i need a list with everything, cant find one

[stray fog]

There's no list for characters on the wiki unfortunately

Going through the entire hunter's journal would be too tedious, and it wouldn't be comprehensive either (for example, vespa wouldn't be in the journal)

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/NPCs_(Silksong)
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/NPCs_(Hollow_Knight)

This is good enough

[twin dragon]

most of those are mindless beasts

[dire lynx]

the "mindless beasts" above thk are enhanced by the infection instead of being lobotomized and disabled by it

and no, most the bosses above him are not beasts

[twin dragon]

Thk is still partly conscious

and that is enough to basically put them to the grave

as he is one of the most skilled fighters in the kingdom

[dire lynx]

*was one of the most skilled fighters

skill lost after being stuck immobile and being torn apart by the radiance from the inside. look at the fight compared to PV hes beyond pathetic

pure vessels ranking reflects the prime hollow knight, i dont know why you're so hung up on this particular placement

[twin dragon]

He would still shred nosk lmfao

He's still a fairly feared fighter even despite everything fucking him over

Garmond is also barely a fighter he's a guy who went up in arms because he wanted revenge

he's not trained or anything as far as we know

[dire lynx]

garmond fights in high halls gauntlet and lives, if not for that he would be way lower

[twin dragon]

helps you fight*

[dire lynx]

hes still there the whole time and doesnt die vro

[twin dragon]

ts is gameplay related stuff now

half of the shit in that arena aren't fighters either

Plus signis n grom aren't doing shit to thk, neither is crawfather

[dire lynx]

thk is getting bodied by a single clapper ✌️ 😭

he is not allat

[twin dragon]

If he can hold his ground even against tk he is allat

if the disabled shredded from the inside out mf can STILL teleport and swing his 8 meter sword he is NO joke

[dire lynx]

thk is one of my favourite characters in fiction too, but ts is generational glaze

[twin dragon]

No like genuinely someone like signis and grom aren't gonna do shit

[marble oasis]

What the hell are lace and last judge doing in A

right behind NYLETH

[pale narwhal]

only 3 of them can be called beasts at all

[twin dragon]

because of the infection doe

[pale narwhal]

no. an intelligent bug does not become a beast because their mind is lost, theyre just considered infected/haunted, but still a bug

[twin dragon]

They aren't very rational after being infected/haunted, at least some of them

[pale narwhal]

still not beasts

[twin dragon]

And my point stands with the fighters aswell

[whole holly]

guys am i only one who thinks that Old Hearts/Last Successors are analogous to Dreamers from first game, we actually get to fight them which is better but still

another name for old hearts

aren't they kinda like Dreamers, it makes more sense when you compare them to scrapped organ sleepers

[whole holly]

also why did you delete the comment?

[stray fog]

What are the similarities?

The one I can think of is that they are 3 objectives that need to be completed to progress in the story

[whole holly]

that's main story but you have to Focus Dreamers, and take hearts of Old Hearts, both events take place in memory/dream realm

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

i mean Dreamers and Old Hearts are both required to Progress the game events, one to unlock Hollow Knight other to find Everbloom

but scrapped organ sleepers which were spun from silk presumably to replace old hearts suggests it more, since Sleeper and Dreamer are kinda analogous

what do you guys think about this theory

[mint stratus]

I MUST SEND YOU THE DORMANT VOLCANO THEORY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwo8_OqgRYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqICEa37C88

It goes into geologic formations and what could cause it (from water run off to heat)

It’s really cool highly recommend

The basic premise though is the idea that mount fay is a dormant volcano, that when it was active the snow melted and acted as water runoff to karak and maybe the other biomes as well

That’s why there’s all that magma below, and I personally believe that all that exploding stuff from ascending the depths could lead to it becoming active again

[jagged socket]

Okay holdon I just realised in the, idk bad ending? where you just beat gms and bind her, hornet grows extra limbs

Is she turning into a full weaver or

[brazen cedar]

she become spider

[mint stratus]

I saw it as sorta a gms (spider) + hornet (half spider) = more spider genes expressed

[jagged socket]

Well I was thinking like, how did gms turn the normal spiders into weavers?

[mint stratus]

She might be considered 2/3 spider now?

[jagged socket]

Does silk have special properties beyond extending life if over ingested?

Can it like ,cause species to evolve or something

i dont know if it was explained how gms turned spiders into weavers

[brazen cedar]

nah she just used her power to turn pharlids into weavers

[jagged socket]

But what if that power was just silk

or at least silk from gms

[brazen cedar]

shes a god mb her silk is different

[jagged socket]

Yeah, so hornet consuming excessive amounts of that silk could not only explain her rabid gain in power (as expressed by the crest, masks, and silk meter) but also her growth of extra arms while "cocooned", maybe evolving

[stray fog]

Let them cook

[ember river]

I've heard that theory a bunch and I like it a lot

[ember river]

She becomes a true higher being

[south ledge]

Hello guys

I was discussing the lore with a friend

[ember river]

And gives in to her natural instincts for domination and rule

[south ledge]

And realized Phantom's lore is a bit confusing. When do y'all think they were created?

[south ledge]

Phantom's in charge of the filtration system, directing the fumes and stuff released by the Citadel. But from my understanding, Citadel was only industrialized under the Weavers and then Conductors. It's entire purpose is to be a cage for GMS.

[spark valve]

she was made to be a daughter for gms but subsequently discarded, the citadel didn't make her but it may have placed her there in exchange for supplying her with the silk she needs to live

[south ledge]

So the Weaver's might have used her after putting GMS to sleep?

[spark valve]

them or the conductors

[south ledge]

Considering how much she wanted a death in battle, I am surprised she did not just attack the Citadel for that

[spark valve]

it's possible the death in battle thing is relatively new now that she's out of silk

there are a lot of empty spools around

[south ledge]

Ohh, good catch

What do you think Lace doing during the period GMS was asleep?

[spark valve]

from what caretaker says it sounds like she was just running around killing people which could get her the silk she needs to survive but she also probably just enjoys it

particularly once the citadel fell silent he said she just killed anyone she came across

One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.
Might'a seen herself this place's protector, keepin' it clean and quiet as she did. Course quiet meant most crossin' her path found a painful end from her pin.

[keen heart]

littel radiance skin please

[spark valve]

if you look in the modding channels that probably already exists

[south ledge]

I see makes sense

Since Lace and Phantom are the only two characters (as far as I can recall) that are shown controllinv the silk flies, wonder if there was some kind of deal between Citadel and Phantom

[spark valve]

I don't remember phantom controlling them like that but the citadel in general sort of does it with the robots

[south ledge]

Doesn't she lead Hornet to her through the mist?

At least that's my interpretation

[spark valve]

maybe but it could also be like the souls of those who sought the citadel still seeking it even after they died and got spewed out the exhaust

[south ledge]

I like that angle too

[jagged socket]

So yeah, what I said

[south ledge]

Mist was almost certainly Phantom's own doing no?

[spark valve]

the mist seems like a general byproduct of the waste, but phantom herself is probably in some way magically connected to it given the wraiths

[ember river]

With the mist some silk is probably ejected, which is what gives it its strange properties

Or at least that's my theory

[south ledge]

'Anguished spectre of lingering thread. Despite its ephemeral nature, strong strikes can dispel the Wraith for a time.
Not a bug but a projection of another's will in smog and Silk'.

[south ledge]

Wraith's journal entry

[spark valve]

yeah it's probably a projection of phantom's will

[south ledge]

My take too

[ember river]

So yeah Phantom is controlling lingering threads that are ejected via the exhaust

[low oracle]

The Silkflies are pilgrim souls, hence they have their own will. For the robots they serve as an energy source. They quite clearly don't like their place as an energy source, as the immediately fly away after being freed. They react to anyone who can play music (Lace's orchestra directing thing counts I guess), and have their own will. In the mist, they lead Hornet to Phantom, her only "canon" escape.

[ember river]

Do silkflies fly out of a clawmaiden as well?

[south ledge]

I am more so wondering why or how they lead her to the exit

How would they know the right path and stuff

I feel like Phantom has to have something to do with it

[low oracle]

They probably don't like the citadel all to much.

[low oracle]

Phantom seems pretty surprised by someone entering her chamber. She doesn't really await Hornet in the same way that Lace does.

[low oracle]

No, clawmaidens were some of the first automaton constructs. They really on silk to function, hence cutting their primal source destroys them. They also seem to be designed after the Weavers, though that is just speculation, since they also use silk skills.

[south ledge]

It does sound a bit convoluted yeah, for her to be able to make the silk flies guide anyone who plays the Needolin

[ember river]

I was wondering if silkflies were actually used as power or as a processor of sorts, so that's why I wanted to know if killing a clawmaiden released a fly

Since we know for a fact that they're powered by silk

[south ledge]

If we do assume that there was some kind of symbiotic relationship between Phantom and Citadel

[ember river]

By silk alone

[south ledge]

At least with the First Children

They would be able to play the Needolin

So maybe the silk flies are supposed to guide anyone that plays the Needolin?

[ember river]

I don't think Phantom was collaborating all that much when the Weavers were in charge

Nor Lace for that matter

[low oracle]

I believe the conductors placed her there, as she definitely is working a kind of job. From their ethics, they probably paid her in silk she could use to repair herself. Which she obviously found to be far less amusing than dying in a fight.

[ember river]

We don't really know when Lace and Phantom were created though

[low oracle]

Lace and Phantom were created in GMS's resentment of the Weavers. They likely were created in the later stages of the Conducters age.

[ember river]

Yet they've been around for longer than the Caretaker

[south ledge]

The filtration system and mist which exists to guard the entry from sinner's road

[ember river]

What about it

You are aware that the Citadel wasn't like this from the start, right?

[low oracle]

Shamans are weird either way, I wouldn't trust them to use in most lore discussions. They say the truth, but always only the half of it.

[south ledge]

Was all the industrialisation only under the Conductors?

[ember river]

Not really? They aren't more questionable than any other source

[ember river]

We don't really know, but if Pious Isamor is anything to be considered, the citadel was more humble at the beginning

[low oracle]

Pretty much. The also introduced all the gilding and so on.

[ember river]

Which was presumably when the Weavers were in charge

[low oracle]

I'm saying that they don't lie. We just don't get the full picture 90% of the time.

[ember river]

We don't get the full picture from anyone

That's why guessing the lore is 90% speculation

[low oracle]

What are you trying to achieve? I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying that the caretaker has much more explaining to do, before we can use his words to determine things barely related to him.

Pious Isamor is probably ancient, though they don't resemble weaver technology. I would guess them to be an early conductor machine, used to spread propaganda for the citadel.

[ember river]

That had Lace been around since rather recently he wouldn't call her more ancient than almost every bug

[ember river]

I kinda throw out the weaver technological looks since seemingly the architects are a weaver invention as well

The Citadel timeline is so weird

[twilit crest]

Lore chat fighting again

[ember river]

That's all that happens here

[low oracle]

Well, we don't know how the first architect looked. They probably weren't even a machine, since the twelth architect uses a Silkfly/is a silkfly (seen resting on top of their corpse at some point). Silkflies were introduced by the conductors.

[south ledge]

My guess is Lace and Phantom being created during Weaver Rebellion

[twilit crest]

Sadly

[ember river]

Aren't the other architect corpses in the chapel?

[twilit crest]

But anyway do we know what exactly Lugoli did to become disgraced

[ember river]

Probably cook people

Or worms

[twilit crest]

If we know muckroaches are livestock then what’s the issue

[ember river]

They are gross

[plain gazelle]

lugoli has pickled people in their attic yeah

[twilit crest]

Oh shit got a pic

[low oracle]

In the architect's chapel, there is only a chorus. Though it does contain silkflies.

[ember river]

In a secret room

Also not all Chorus robots are "Fourth Chorus"

[ember river]

There are four chorus in the game, the one we fight is the fourth

The chapel one is the First IIRC

[low oracle]

He cooked sapient bugs, which basically boils down to cannibalism in HK, even with different bug species.

[south ledge]

For creating pickled muck maggots

[edgy nebula]

they ate people

[low oracle]

I'm correcting it, didn't think that sentence through.

[south ledge]

Grand Gourmand probably disagrees

[edgy nebula]

are those squirrm in the rightmost tank

what an evil freak

[twilit crest]

Oh damn I never noticed this room. Ty for the info

[low oracle]

Then we should let Ass Jim cook Grand Gourmand and feed him to Grander Gourmand (/j).

[twilit crest]

Hmm I think I need 4 more people to reiterate just to be sure

[ember river]

Oh damn you're right

That's hilarious

[low oracle]

There is the possibility Lugoli also cooked fleas.

[ember river]

There's child cannibalism in silksong

And Hornet slaughtering various infants and children

[low oracle]

By the way, that's just cut meat. The white things are the bones, though they do seem pretty similar.

[ember river]

What a wholesome game

[ember river]

Actually true

They seem more like muckroaches

[edgy nebula]

ah i see

[low oracle]

I think we see examples in the room, anybody have a pic?

[low oracle]

He still cooked craws though. The tiny ones too.

And child pilgrims.

[ember river]

Are there even child pilgrims?

Not all short bugs are children

[south ledge]

Are there any mentions of other non vegetarian food than Muckroaches and maggots?

[low oracle]

The little pilgrims and the pilgrim hornflies. At least I think that are their names.

And of course the citadel versions.

[ember river]

You know they can just be smaller bugs right?

We don't really see them grown up

In fact the journal just calls them short

Not young

[low oracle]

They are both described to be young. And we do see them grown up, compare the large and the small citadel pilgrims. Also the minecraft elder pilgrims and the pilgrim hornfly.

[ember river]

Short pilgrim that uses their long horn to launch upon threats.

The winged pilgrims aren't called young either

[low oracle]

Are you sure? In that case I'll argue that the pilgrim hornflies fly clumsily, in an inexperienced manner.

[plain gazelle]

can't think of any

[low oracle]

I'm looking up some pics, hold up.

[ember river]

Not the hornflies, those are the winged pilgrims

Winged pilgrims

Hornflies

[limpid summit]

I mean who knows what Rancid Eggs are

But they’re probably just eggs of some sort

So not that

[ember river]

We don't see food all that much anyways

In the first game we did see them eat meat in the City of Tears kitchen

And like half the bugs are predators, or trappers of some sort

Even the sentient ones, that giraffe in HK1 that tried to eat us, or the entire deepnest

[south ledge]

Yeah most of them are probably predators, was just wondering if we could find out a pecking order of the tastiest bugs

Sadly it seems not

[ember river]

Sadly most bugs remain uneaten

Or their taste unknown

Doesn't help that Hornet murders everyone who actually eats them

[south ledge]

And that Hornet doesn't eat

[ember river]

That's concerningly true

[twin dragon]

I'd assume that's the same reason tk doesn't need to eat

since they have so much soul in them because of pk descendance

[ember river]

You can just say the knight being void is why they don't need to eat

[south ledge]

The Knight probably can't eat

[ember river]

But yeah the demigod argument works just as fine

[twin dragon]

We do see mess halls in the citadel

[ember river]

He just shoves the food inside his stomach

[low oracle]

I am wrong in some regards. What do you think about these though? There are probably more too, I didn't take too long looking at everything.

[twin dragon]

he does some void shit and absorbs it

[ember river]

Or... the region of the torso where the stomach would be

[ember river]

What about them, they have some similarities since they're generic bugs but after killing the lower two you can see they don't have wings

If you take their cloths

[south ledge]

Thats a funny picture lmao

[low oracle]

The lower two are supposed to be the same, so it would make sense if they are similar. Also, the bigger citadel pilgrim is called Choir Hornhead. That may only be a description, though other pilgrims have horns too and aren't described as such. So they seem to be of similar kind.

[ember river]

I think he's just called hornhead because he acts like a rhino

The only one where I could see the case of them being the same is the one that jumps on you and the hornfly

But even then I'm skeptical

[low oracle]

Maybe, but that argument doesn't apply with the Hornfly. And we can't say that descriptions apply in different ways, that'd be too inconsistent to argue.

[ember river]

Also, the little pilgrim doesn't really speak like a child and he's of the same species as the winged ones

[low oracle]

I thought so too, but the Hornfly has two horns. One is a bit hidden however.

[ember river]

Oh yeah

[low oracle]

Perhaps that's just their species then. The Choir Hornhead, little citadel pilgrim (idk) and the Hornfly could be the same species though. Depending wether you find the Hornfly or the little choir pilgrim more believable.

[ember river]

Yeah, I usually consider each bug type their own species regardless of size unless there's good reason to believe otherwise

[twin dragon]

I'd assume they are somewhat related

to eachother

Like they had a common ancestor not too long ago at a certain point

[low oracle]

True. I think we could group pilgrims into species though, for some we even know their origin. I'll provide the nameless town pilgrims in a moment, hol up.

[low oracle]

They're pilgrims, not all of them are related.

[plain gazelle]

i could have sworn i remembered dialogue somewhere where a pilgrim mentions leaving family behind on their journey, implying they only set off on the pilgrimage after adulthood, but i can't find it

[ember river]

Related as in having a similar precursor species

The same way cats, lions and tigers are all felines

[twin dragon]

It is assumed that they have silk from their ascendants

which comes from these ascendants being part of the citadel

[ember river]

But to be fair, most generic bugs are just that

Generic

[ember river]

Ascendants*, also that just means they had ancestors who reached the citadel

[twin dragon]

My 3 braincells failed to rub

[twin dragon]

If thats the case, why are the descendants pilgrims?

[low oracle]

All these pilgrims come from the nameless town, or at least there blood line does. Old Penitent doesn't fit, but he says so himself that he came from "above".

[ember river]

Ehhhhhh

The nameless town was long, long ago

Countless generations have passed since that place still worked

[twin dragon]

needolin corpse states whispers drawing them in

which could be the song resonating

[low oracle]

The memory is quite clearly a horned pilgrim, and all the horned pilgrims are near identical.

[ember river]

Because having a society of people who reach the citadel and just die there isn't particularly functional

[low oracle]

It was the weavers, luring them into the endless cycle of song.

[ember river]

Humans from 500 years ago were like the humans of today

That doesn't mean they all come from the same place

[twin dragon]

Yeah but they're descendants of people that were in the citadel, why tf didn't they stay there

or weren't born there or wtv

[low oracle]

Point proven...? Are you saying that Skarrs might not all come from hunters march? Maybe, but that aren't grounds for arguing.

[ember river]

I have no idea, unless the towns around the citadel got the silk from the citadel's waste

[ember river]

The skarrs are endemic to there, the nameless town is an unimportant derelict location abandoned during the weaver rule

[twin dragon]

could be actually

that is prob the answer

[ember river]

Also technically the skarrs don't come from hunter's march

They come from far fields

[twin dragon]

caretaker's referring to the bugs born inside of the citadel

[twin dragon]

hunter's march is an extension of far fields

[ember river]

Probably, especially since they're referred to as a caste

[ember river]

I know, it wasn't a serious point

[low oracle]

The bugs were lured into the cycle of song. From there, they got ingested with silk and reproduced. Over time, the silk got basically imprinted on them. if you think about it, all pilgrims of different species aren't haunted. Hence they probably are new to the cycle, no silk inside of them.

[low oracle]

So? I'm making an argument about species and their origins.

[ember river]

Or not enough for GMS to instantly get them

[low oracle]

Well, you know what I mean...

[ember river]

That the current day pilgrims couldn't have ever come from the nameless town since it's a long dead place

Like, it's been dead for most of Pharloom's existence

[low oracle]

Sherma is completely different, just like pilgrim preacher and so on.

[ember river]

We see some sane pilgrims with those bodies

[low oracle]

I'm not arguing that the town is still alive, absolutely not. I'm making comparisons between very similar bugs, and speculating their story of origin.

[ember river]

The one with the magnetite dice seems like the pilgrim hulks (or however the ones that charge at you are called)

[ember river]

Some of them could have come from there, the VAST MAJORITY do not

[low oracle]

Yes, though not all of them are. 100% of the species of the pilgrim preacher, scared pilgrim and Sherma not haunted.

[low oracle]

I'm ONLY referring to horned pilgrims, specifically these horned pilgrims I sent pictures of.

[ember river]

Still impossible

[low oracle]

What exactly?

[ember river]

That they all come from above

Generic Placeholder Bugs probably don't have a specific place of origin or backstory

[low oracle]

Not all of them come from above. I just said, I'm talking about their origins.

[ember river]

Well that's also impossible because it seems most, if not all of them got brought into the citadel

Which makes horned pilgrims impossible

If they all come from there

[low oracle]

This memory looks like this guy. Not the same guy, the same species.

[ember river]

That doesn't mean every single member of the species comes from there

[low oracle]

They reproduced IN the citadel, after abandoning their town.

[ember river]

Again, these are just generic bugs with generic origins

[ember river]

Then why would they leave and their descendants climb back up

[low oracle]

Not any more, since they are now reproducing somewhere else.

[low oracle]

Perhaps every bug must make the pilgrimage. It is a religion after all, which tend to have weird rules.

[ember river]

That opens an important can of worms that surpasses this discussion, I'm just reluctant to accept that the Nameless Town was the original endemic birthplace of intentionally generic bugs with no backstory

It's overthinking it

[low oracle]

This is the lore discussion. You should probably expect overthinking for HK lore.

[ember river]

Yeah, relevant overthinking

[quartz stump]

just had an insane idea
hk 3. if it ever happens. will be protagonized by Steel Asassin Sharpe. and it will be in the City Of Steel, and give us some more lore to what the city actually is

[ember river]

I think City of Steel has more chances to end up as a DLC than as a new game

Also HK3 will obviously be protagonized by Zote and will have a Zotesand hours of gameplay

[quartz stump]

hm good point

[ember river]

But since sharpe is actually a backer character that points more towards a DLC IMO

With all the missing enemies and all

[quartz stump]

oh yeahh

makes sense

zote has a lot of unresolved backstory (ehem ehem daddy issues/silly) so a game protagonized by him would still be interesting

[edgy nebula]

lion village when

[quartz stump]

protag lace would be interesting but idk how would you expand on her lore without being in pharloom

[ember river]

And not dying from lack of silk

[quartz stump]

yeah

[ember river]

What if the city of steel is ruled by the lion king?

[quartz stump]

gang what if Sly teaches Zote how to actually fight and how to use an actual nail

[quartz stump]

does this mean lion village is ruled by the steel chief

[ember river]

Zote doesn't need to learn because he's already the most knowledgeable warrior of the land

[twin dragon]

Zote trained me

he explained how he had to slay the leviathan to obtain the life ender

[ember river]

If you follow closely, both protagonists follow the fifty seven precepts

[twin dragon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1445136274301128806/togif-1.gif

[ember river]

That's why Hornet disrespects the Pale King

[low oracle]

Like this?

[stray fog]

If zote really is from pharloom (as some would suggest), then why would he use a nail

[low oracle]

He isn't, there is no question.

[stray fog]

I don't think he researched the culture of hallownest

Before coming here

[edgy nebula]

his mom is clearly greyroot though, trust

[stray fog]

Some people theorize that (because shellwooda and greyroot)
I personally don't believe in this theory

[low oracle]

Grey Mourner isn't from Hallownest, yet she uses a nail. Pins are Pharloom tradition, nails are more general.

[low oracle]

People when an english word is used twice (also root = white lady)

[edgy nebula]

we see karakans use something somewhat similar to a nail with their boneblades

[stray fog]

Grey Mourner has been in hallownest for a long time, so she could have gotten her nail at any point

Zote just arrived in hallownest (I think), but he already had a nail

Although we do see an ancient nailsmith

So maybe nails really are universal

[low oracle]

True, but i doubt Grey Mourner learned fighting in Hallownest. Someone with a delicate flower seems pretty special.

Her nail is also pretty unique, so I doubt she had it made in Hallownest.

[stray fog]

She is one of the five great knights after all

So her weapon gotta be stylish

[low oracle]

What about Xero? He has striking similarities to the Karak, just like Garro. He isn't a moth (no dreamnails, implication, fur) and he uses normal nails, to some extent. I know he served the Pale King though, so maybe that's kind of irrelevant.

[stray fog]

Im on the fence about xero being from karak

His anatomy is too different from karak soldiers

[edgy nebula]

yeah he might just be red

i think garro being from karak is possible

[stray fog]

There are other spirits with red armour, so we need more evidence than red armour imo

[stray fog]

I believe that one

[whole holly]

i think Pins are unique to Pharloom because it makes sense with Silk, Needle's are unique to Hive and Hornet, although hornet's is custom forged and Pins are universal or as old as Ancient Civilization

[plain gazelle]

HK artstyle is just pretty simple so there's inevitable cases where things look similar despite being unrelated

[low oracle]

I understand that, but it is totally plausible. Assuming Garro is a Karak, we know they could have come to Hallownest. And he has the same shoulder pads, armor pattern and eyes. His helmet is different, yet it follows the type of white eyes in the dark.

[whole holly]

yeah, Hollow Knight's Horns resemble Mantis Lords

[low oracle]

Different colour though, and that is a singular feature.

[stray fog]

I don't think hes implying any similarities between the two
Just an example of coincidental similarities in looks

[whole holly]

same comparasion as exoskeleton since we know that Spirits in Spirit Glade aren't important to lore and they are all backer character who were created before cohesive lore

[edgy nebula]

xero’s only real similarities are color and the eyes, but i dont think thst’s enough

[stray fog]

The horns, frayed cloak, and lack of a weapon are the main differences

[whole holly]

i mean weapon also looks similar and anatomy as well

[low oracle]

Team Cherry probably took inspiration, there is no way that Garro is pure coincidence. From there, Xero isn't much of a stretch.

[edgy nebula]

yeah, no karakan we see has a cloak

[whole holly]

Xero is kind of stretch, they are way too unrelated to Karaks regarding anatomy and structure

[stray fog]

Do we know who made Garro and who made xero?

If they're the same person, then that's another point of evidence for xero being from karak

[whole holly]

what do you guys think about this?

[edgy nebula]

xero was made by constant pham

[near thistle]

Zote must be vessel because they look like the knight.

[stray fog]

Does the hive use needles or was it specially made for hornet? Because needles make sense for hornet, not the bees

[whole holly]

Xerro by Constant Pham, Garro
by José Angel Lara

[edgy nebula]

and ckk was made by brandon lieu

so entirely different people, it’s probably a coincidence

[low oracle]

True. The weapons are nails, though we don't know how he thought since he's a ghost. Probably used nails, since he served the Pale King sometime. The helmet might just be unique, Garro also has a different one. The cloak looks like a mothwing cloak, though it might just move this way due to being ghostly. I would say that was given to him when serving the Pale King too.
Plus, consider Khan. He wouldn't look similar to you either, yet he is their leader. He has similarities to the other enemies I didn't show, just saying that we don't have a "full picture".

[low oracle]

Each person got one character to design. They just happened to look alike, personally.

[stray fog]

They could have taken inspiration from garro
Or they could have not submitted a Design, and tc took inspiration from Garro for that design

[whole holly]

Needle is canonically custom forged, for hornet, maybe whatever Hive Knight uses is also needle as it resembles Bee's needle thematically, maybe Hornet's Needle is custom forged to resemble Pin?

[low oracle]

I think they do, the Hiveknight nail doesn't look like one.

[whole holly]

or tailored to her usage of Silk

[low oracle]

Yeah, but Elder Hu is too. I believe we can draw connections for these things.

[stray fog]

Hornet's needle is like a combination of her ties to bees and spiders, both

(bee = stinger
Spider = weaving, sewing, threads, etc)

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

ckk?

[stray fog]

Khann

[whole holly]

yeah, i get it now, i like Karaks design tbh, i can't wait for Sea of Sorrows

[edgy nebula]

in sea of sorrows we should get a bunch of karakans having a pool party

do we think this guy's related to karak at all

appearance-wise not so much but he seems to share alot of khann's beliefs

better image of him

[pliant crag]

He looks very different, but maybe he could be from a similar underwater kingdom

Real question is, how did the karaks conquer half of pharloom if they dry up when not underwater?

Was the river gigantic or did they find a way to flood those areas?

[edgy nebula]

the river was very large

it likely flowed down into wormways and moss grotto, which id say means they considered that their territory

and thats like 1/3 of the kingdom, so on top of that they probably ruled where the citadel and the underworks were

[pliant crag]

What if he is from the sea of sorrows?

Trust me bro

[low oracle]

Their colour led me to speculate the same too, though they don't seem to have any other similarities, unlike Garro and Xero.

[pliant crag]

These must all be bugs, from different tribes and kingdoms, who came to hallownest during its prime

[edgy nebula]

boss says he came from another kingdom, he shares a similar weapon to garro, and also has the same covered eyes as karakas do

but his brighter colored shell makes me think twice

[pliant crag]

Maybe they were buried in the spirits' glade by the moths so their way of thinking could be preseved

[low oracle]

Boss has a pretty unique artstyle, if you get what I mean.

By the way, does Magnus Strong walk on these tiny legs? Is he supposed to be a ridicoulusly proportioned crab?

[pliant crag]

There's also the chance some bugs colour their shell, pretty sure the dandies of the city of tears did that

[gentle aspen]

No

[pliant crag]

Imagine he only walked sideways

[low oracle]

I think they were cloaks. The red guards on the other hand simply had their shells enhanced and strengthened.

[low oracle]

That'd be terrifying. Would be a cool boss though.

[empty scarab]

i still think that this one orange ghost that uses ring to fight is a member of shakra's tribe

[foggy fractal]

elder hu ?

[stray fog]

I think "city of steel" is not the actual name of the steel kingdom

Gms calls hallownest "the kingdom of the white wyrm". This name is more of a description of what the kingdom is, and not an actual name.

Maybe the same applies for the city of steel.

[uncut crystal]

Yeah it could be the same case as the City of Tears where as that’s just a name given to match the current state of the city and not its original name

[whole holly]

I agree, but what are Blackbarrens and Sandsea Wastes, maybe actual waste desert in HK?

[craggy smelt]

sandsea wastes sounds like the endless wastelands between kingdoms - pretty sandy out there

blackbarrens also sounds like a wasteland - maybe a different part of it

[craggy smelt]

Steel Town

[edgy nebula]

i feel like sandsea wastes is the place where you find watcher at the edge

[whole holly]

I agree but are blackbarrens different part or variation of it

I mean I don’t think either are city or kingdom, maybe settlement

[pliant crag]

A different location, but part of the same area

[whole holly]

We can’t confirm anything now

[pliant crag]

True, just speculation

[craggy smelt]

remember Seth

[pliant crag]

Rip Seth Goldman

[craggy smelt]

yeah
the name makes me think of like large briar bushes and black thorns for some reason - like badlands and scrub growth
but who knows, I doubt we'll ever see it

[whole holly]

Interesting

[pliant crag]

Watch it be mentioned on the "faraway travellers" dlc in hollow knight: cenoventure in 2063

[whole holly]

Honestly I can’t wait for Sea of Sorrows , silksong didn’t hype as much

As DLC that is coming

[rapid bloom]

I mean, she calls it the kingdom of the Pale Wyrm because the Pale King is the only being of the sort, right? Hallownest has great renown, even after the PK died and the kingdom fell into ruin

The City of Steel could be the capital

[gentle aspen]

*white wyrm

[ocean crown]

Where does gms say anything

[sinful nimbus]

He's talking about the choral commandment which might not be written by GMS per se but wtv doesn't really matter

She does speak in the Silk Heart scenes though

[gentle aspen]

Still her will or whatever

[frosty gate]

It's most likely the case, City of Steel is just an excuse for "We don't have a proper name" yet

[frosty gate]

I'm really curious as to who is writing these. Has to be a Haunted person of high standing right?

Probably in High Halls

[sinful nimbus]

yea

[covert night]

tuff needolin dialogues for crawfather

[silk dirge]

spinderous spiderling 🗣️ 🔥

[covert night]

a calamitous criminal 🔥💯💯

[silk dirge]

<@&283547423706447872> make them sorrowful

[muted lantern]

Does lost garmond have needolin dialogue?

[sinful nimbus]

nah

[muted lantern]

Bummer that could have told us a lot about the mental effects of black threading

Do any black threaded enemies have needolin or is it intentionally removed from them all. Even enemies that usually had it.

[covert night]

lost lace has no dialogue too

i wouldnt be surprised if it's intentional

[limpid summit]

Iirc no black threaded enemies have NDD

Makes sense I guess cause it would be hard for Hornet to play their voided strings

But like

I can’t believe both final bosses just don’t have NDD

[edgy nebula]

spinderous isnt even a real word and it's STILL tuff

[silk dirge]

sorry i saw this on vacation and whenever someone says tuff i have to post it 😭

[muted lantern]

This rock is so tuff fr

[midnight zinc]

So dedicated to alliteration that he started making up words

[foggy fractal]

no.... you're... telling me that tuff,,,, AREN'T TUFF ??????

[foggy fractal]

must've been a mental flash bang

[gleaming thorn]

Dumb question but was gms evil?I feel like she wasn't and I felt bad for her at the end

[sinful nimbus]

Her obsession with creating perfectly loyal daughters (to the point of discarding one of them) was definitely abusive

Haunting everyone is also unquestionably evil

[edgy river]

She created the weavers and forced then to sing for them which wasn't very great

She also corrupted the minds of bugs forcing them into servitude and (from what it seems from the ones in bellhart) endless torture and sent expeditions to kill or capture the weavers

[gleaming thorn]

Ohh true

But why did she help hornet and lace in the end then??

[edgy river]

She cares for her child more than anything else. By helping hornet she was helping Lace

[brazen cedar]

cuz she loves lace

also the end is crazy

minecraft reference

[edgy river]

The whole thing with her making a barrier from the void deep down in the sea was to protect lace. But she couldn't really save lace. Hornet, however, could, but lacked the silk/power necessary for it so GMS gave it to her

[covert night]

he is on a different level we can't understand him

[covert night]

what

oh

[brazen cedar]

he called the ||abyss|| the end lmao

[edgy river]

I love it in Minecraft when you are so close to saving the Alex but the end islands start to crumble and the Ender Dragon sacrifices herself giving you her exp for one final enchantment to save her

[foggy fractal]

if only silksong had good writing like this

[edgy river]

I think he meant "at the end of the game" not that the place was called the end

[brazen cedar]

oh mb

[brazen cedar]

if only silksong was a good game. i give it a -1/100

ign was too nice

[edgy river]

If only they had spend 7 more years working on it

[gleaming thorn]

Weird question too but I'm guessing gms is also gone entirely forever now as the void consumed but when she gave that silk/power,did hornet keep it or was it a boost so she escapes

Ngl I'm really impressed by her power

[brazen cedar]

hopefully they take 8 years for the dlc so it turns out halfway good

[gleaming thorn]

I wish cherry gets new developers that they can trust so their games come out quicker

[normal imp]

GOOD MORNING USA

[edgy river]

Hornet uses all of GMS silk in the final Silk Soar. GMS is made from silk so she kinda dies in that process

[brazen cedar]

no, think about how bad silksong was, if they went quicker it would have been even worse

[edgy river]

It's like in the Weaver Queen when hornet absorves GMS to herself using binding but this time. GMS willingly sacrifices herself through silk soar

[brazen cedar]

its funny that shes technically a pale being but sshe dies from a 1 mile silk soar

[edgy river]

Hornet is also a Pale Being and is binding her

Using her silk

[brazen cedar]

hornet is not a pale being. she is the child of one

bbig difference

the knight is the child of two pale beings but is still not one

[edgy river]

Also its supposed to ve the most absurd silksoar. It defends them from void for a while even, tho it eventually fails

[dire lynx]

the everbloom is what is defending hornet and lace from the void, not the silk soar

[gleaming thorn]

I don't think silksong was bad at all,and I think the reason they were taking too long is because they're a small studio compared to most and their art is drawn

[barren beacon]

The important fact is that it wasn't strong enough to get them all the way out

[edgy river]

"You were normal bugs. Caught beneath a being pale

Devotion or Destruction, these are the only fates my kind allow"

[brazen cedar]

bro i was kidding

[gleaming thorn]

Ohhh mb

[brazen cedar]

nah its fine

[gleaming thorn]

I just want more hollow knight games they're the peakest imo

[barren beacon]

She meant weavers, Trusts

[dire lynx]

the hollow knight investigates steel city in hollow knight three 🙏

[edgy river]

Yes this is true. I think visually it seems like the soar has a Barrie's at the start that goes away and then the everbloom is the sole responsible for a while but it doesn't really matter in this case

[brazen cedar]

third one is zoteboat fr

[gleaming thorn]

Bro I'm so desperate I genuinely don't even care what it is as long as it's as long cuz I become hungry for more I ll buy and play idc I trust team cherry

[edgy river]

Ill wait happily another 7 years for a game as good as Silksong. No problem at all

Tons of other studios making great games in the meantime

[gleaming thorn]

Thing is bro they can still make it good the extra years is also cus of their studio members not being alot for game with such good content

Also most games coming out are boring imo

[edgy river]

Tbf I'm thinking on buying in my gfs PS5 to get platinum on it as well just to play the game more since I already got plat on steam so I don't have much to do rn

[gleaming thorn]

Fr

[dire lynx]

this dialogue is really weird considering verdania fell to the conductors

[gleaming thorn]

I'm only waiting for re requiem even tho ik it's a bad ending cus Leon will 100% be an enemy or final boss but silksong was the last peak game I played

[edgy river]

As someone who works in development. The extra years are most likely because tons of stuff was cut out, reassembled, reinterpred, etc

Silksong is a extremely polished experience and it's likely 50% of the ideas that got pretty far in development were left out for it to be that way

Only the finest of the finest made it in

[edgy river]

I interpreted as if they were "caught beneath" a being pale since the citadel was using the power of a pale being as their own

Like, they were even literally beneath GMS and used her silk as their strength

But ig it's possible she was talking about weavers and not pale beings with "my kind". But "Devotion or Destruction" makes tons of sense for pale beings in general and hornets stance on them

"Dominance, it seems, is baked deep inside my blood" and all that

[dire lynx]

the dialogue is also really weird considering that the pale king is literally hornets father and we know he allowed other bugs to exist seperatley from him

[normal imp]

I think its more like the silk dregs from the cacoon or just the extraction of silk directly from the cacoon were used by the citadel she used to basixally immobile

[limpid summit]

I agree and like there’s sort of a persistent theme about GMS really being behind everything as Ballador says but like

She didn’t do that

The Conductors created the Memoriam right

[dire lynx]

that doesnt really explain the dialogue, because it wasnt gms calling the shots

[dire lynx]

correct

Here is established, by holy consent of the Conductors,
The Memorium of Pharloom.

What Is Remembered Is Never Lost.

[limpid summit]

So for the Hearts’ defeat it went
GMS: Karmelita, then Khann
Weavers: None
Conductors: GP, then Nyleth sort of

[spark valve]

Khann fell after GMS was sealed

[limpid summit]

Oh yeah the water

So was the pale light the Weavers?

<@&283547423706447872>

Or did he just somehow know like GMS was behind it all

[spark valve]

They fell to the conductors but like
They still predated gms and could’ve resisted her she’s just not what they fell to

[limpid summit]

Oh what I’m stupid

I genuinely thought alone against the pale light was the post defeat dialogue

[edgy nebula]

he's probably magic and could just feel a disturbance in the force

[dire lynx]

karmelita is also likely the most recent of the old hearts, she is a completely regular ant queen

[edgy river]

He still looks for severe devotion from his people and even if he does let other people live in peace, it seems most of them still have to devote to him somehow. Being by making a path to the capital, or maintaining the border from deepnest. Most of them devote themselves to Hallownest in some way

[limpid summit]

All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light...

So then these are like

“Out of order”

Alone should go before the last one

Another one bruh?

<@&283547423706447872>

[edgy river]

Again? No one is falling for crypto scan in a Silksong lore channel

[limpid summit]

In youth, her voice united the wild tribes. Gave them the strength to resist the pale monarch's will... longer than most at least

[edgy river]

Is this common? I've been here a lot and this is the first time I've seen it

[limpid summit]

So where does this like stop

[edgy river]

In any way

[limpid summit]

The longer than most

[edgy nebula]

i feel like "alone" and "none left to resist" isnt genuine

[edgy river]

There is also the silkflies which is... Something

[spark valve]

Haunting

[limpid summit]

It probably extends well into conductors right

Yes

[edgy nebula]

khann is a hardened warlord, and no hearts we know of actually fought against gms in her prime

[limpid summit]

Then are they being metaphorical here too

[edgy nebula]

i feel like that's what he's referring to instead of everyone else actually being gone

[limpid summit]

Weavers and Conductors still GMS

Ugh

Yes it’s the theme

But its annoying timeline wise

[spark valve]

I mean it’s mostly straightforward what the timeline is

[dire lynx]

probably, every reference to the pale monarch around the old hearts other than maybe khanns seems to actually be the citadel

[limpid summit]

Like shut up bro 💔

[spark valve]

The only one where there’s even any question is karm

[limpid summit]

Nyleth didn’t even fall

[dire lynx]

shes a bum who decided to take a nap

[spark valve]

She did since splinters took over

[dire lynx]

shes literally just sleeping. nyleth is the biggest fraud in hk history 🥀

[edgy nebula]

i hate his stupid baby body

[edgy river]

To answer this. I don't think to be "caught beneath a being pale" necessarily means the Pale being was the one calling the shots.

It could be that by facing against the citadel they were fighting a pale being even if indirectly, since it's GMSes power

And it makes sense in context. There was no chance to win for normal bugs fighting against the power of a Pale Being. Even if it was being harvested by the citadel

[edgy nebula]

well, id say khann's is still ambiguous, cause of how split karak's timeline is, either could work

[dire lynx]

Devotion or Destruction, these are the only fates my kind allow
then why would hornet say this? its completely irrelevant unless gms is in charge

[limpid summit]

My thing is by this time that’s inconsistent

She attributes the entire Citadel to GMS early in act 2

But then spends the act realizing

Oh it’s mortals in their fervor who did this too

[spark valve]

Because they’re the inevitable outcomes whether the pale being intends it or not

[edgy river]

Maybe it's a purposeful theme. They know or at least recognize the origin of the citadel strenght. So they all reference it as a pale monarch?

[edgy nebula]

what's this topic about again?

[edgy river]

I thought it could be this

"You were normal bugs, caught beneath a being pale (citadel using gms power)"

"Devotion or destruction, these are the only fates my kind (weavers) allowed"

But even then, the citadel was already passed away to other bugs when verdania was lost right? Weavers had nothing to do with it

Where does the information that was the conductors come from?

[dire lynx]

old hearts and the citadel/gms

[edgy river]

I forgot

[dire lynx]

the conductors created the cogwork dancers and memorium

[edgy nebula]

what about them, though?

[spark valve]

Devotion or destruction

[edgy river]

Oh yeah, memorium

Huh. Maybe hornet doesn't know that? But that's extremely cope

But ig this does contradict hard lore built through the world itself so if hornet thinking it was gms or smth is the only explanation?

[edgy nebula]

what about it though

[spark valve]

People take it out of context and make it not make sense then ask what it means

[edgy river]

Hornets weird phrasing about the lost verdania considering it was the conductors that did that

She seems to attribute it to "a being pale" and "my kind"

[spark valve]

.

[edgy river]

Ig that's fair

[spark valve]

She’s not talking about who’s to blame she’s saying the the prince couldn’t have done anything

[limpid summit]

She’s so callous for that

[uncut crystal]

So did the haunting occur after the fall of the other tribes?

[limpid summit]

Should have fought harder 2 cycles ago

[dire lynx]

yes, haunting is recent

[edgy river]

It could be interpreted that weavers did not want devotion, and to try to stop that, they created a lot of destruction as well (didn't even work)

[limpid summit]

Haunting occurred long after Khann fell and before Karmelita stopped singing

[spark valve]

Haunting probably happened well after karmelita stopped singing

Doesn’t look like she’s been doing it for a long time

[edgy river]

And the princes were "caught beneath" like they were affected by just being nearby a being pale and the destruction they will inevitably cause

Yeah it's probably that

[spark valve]

Lost to the pale monarch and the system to keep her caged

[limpid summit]

Sorry wait what

I genuinely typed out the complete opposite of what I was thinking

Hollow knight fans can’t think

[spark valve]

Happens

[limpid summit]

Are Mantises the outlier

I guess not because TL

[spark valve]

They also got lucky with TK showing up

[dire lynx]

mosskin and deepnest

[edgy river]

They were hurt pretty badly by being partnered to the PK and the eventual infection of Hallownest

[edgy river]

Mosskin are infected because of the destruction brought to them by PKs actions so idk about that

[limpid summit]

Deepnest is done for

Unless Midwife and the Distant Villager can eke out some sort of existence

Maybe Hornet will bring Lace back

[dire lynx]

who will be midwifes midwife?

[edgy nebula]

well, there are the deepnest citizens in the beasts den that trick you

or that might be one guy

we dont know

[spark valve]

Meh it’s recently infected the devouts might be fine

[edgy river]

In this interpretation, however, "devotion and destruction" would work better than "or" i think since usually both of them are results of pale beings. Even the devoted eventually fall

It is or in the original text right?

[dire lynx]

yes

[edgy nebula]

do we think we'll get karak lore in any of the dlcs

[uncut crystal]

Most likely

[limpid summit]

Probably

I mean watcher at the edge

[uncut crystal]

It’d be weird for sea of sorrow to not be connected given the themes

[limpid summit]

They’re still alive in there

Why did we just kill him lmao

[spark valve]

No

[dire lynx]

i can see us finding another runaway karaka in the sea

[edgy nebula]

well why not, hornet kills other ancient people with rich history for less

[limpid summit]

I feel like by the time your eyes are orange and you’re attacking you’re already pretty goopy

I suppose the claw mask use shows a bit of logical restraint

Maybe they could get it going

[spark valve]

They’re not husks yet so it’s possible

[limpid summit]

But like Myla is gone right

What makes her gone and not them

[dire lynx]

i dont think she is, only late stage infection leaves you dead for sure

or if ur already dead

[craggy smelt]

she got that last plaintive wail...

[drifting walrus]

I think I’d rather be dead than an infected husk

[drifting walrus]

Watcher at the other edge Fr

[dire lynx]

yo, wsg

[drifting walrus]

Going to Brisbane

[halcyon merlin]

what is the watcher watching

[drifting walrus]

The edge

[halcyon merlin]

🔥

[dire lynx]

watching for the return of the water

[edgy nebula]

"new life"

[halcyon merlin]

well that sounds more like an appropriate answer

[dire lynx]

to the karak water is life

[edgy nebula]

true

[jaunty brook]

I feel like people underestimate how big some of the stuff in this game is

[edgy nebula]

as in?

[jaunty brook]

Bosses

Like the fourth chorus

Sister splinter

[edgy nebula]

yeah most bosses are pretty large compared to hornet

[jaunty brook]

I just find it crazy how most of the big ones

Are early game

Biggest

Even in the first game

The hollow knight is MASSIVE

[stray geyser]

i have a really stupid theory

[barren beacon]

What is it

[stray geyser]

fourth chorus is based on the shade lord

[barren beacon]

Is it because they have 4 arms

[stray geyser]

THE ARMS ARE VERY SIMILAR OK

and thier the same size

thier hands are also the same with three fingers and a thumb

[prisma charm]

i mean i guess bro

[muted lantern]

I think thats just how tc draws detailed hands lol

[stray geyser]

however

[muted lantern]

Why is ogrim here lol. his ass aint got no hands

[stray geyser]

i ljike him

[muted lantern]

fair, he is neat

[drifting walrus]

Yeah are we really saying shade lord and FC are the same size

[stray geyser]

shade lord doesnt have any legs

[edgy nebula]

they are

well, fc is taller

[stray geyser]

if you ignore the legs they are the same height

[drifting walrus]

I recognise all of these except the first one

[stray geyser]

last judge

[drifting walrus]

Damn

Didn’t realise they had such sticks for forearms

[muted lantern]

Second sentinel also has hands iirc

[stray geyser]

i didnt go through every enemy with detailed hadns

[foggy fractal]

🤓 erm... actually...

[foggy fractal]

though with sentinel and swift they seemingly only have 3 fingers

[stray geyser]

why did you make it transparent i cant see any of these because its black on black

[muted lantern]

In their sprite, but you did post an art of quirrel and presumably his sprite has less fingers.

[stray geyser]

pure vessel is void so yeah

still supports my theory

[foggy fractal]

hes also shown with 4 in the qurriel comic so I think 4 would be more accurate anyway

[muted lantern]

The amount of fingers is almost as inconsistent as first sinners legs

[foggy fractal]

is last judge and gms also void ?

[stray geyser]

gms is in the void

so her hands changed

last judge is void thats part of the theory now

[limpid summit]

TC doesn’t draw detailed hands all that much so they sort of homogenize them

[foggy fractal]

?

[muted lantern]

... I don't think the void changed her hands...

[foggy fractal]

well everything that's black is void so yeah still works

[stray geyser]

dude im gonna have to stretch this so hard

gimme a sec

[foggy fractal]

black = void
orange = infection
blue = lifeblood
red = nightmare
we all know ts

[foggy fractal]

actually give me a sec let me check quirrel's sprites

[muted lantern]

And also like, why would the fourth chorus be designed to have hands that look like the lord of shades, a form that is never seen until the knight ascends. The architects probably don't know much about the void, and the hand design would make more sense if it was based on gms.

The cogworks are probably made before the knight ascended

[stray geyser]

this is because gms is void and when the silk flies controlled the architect she made it to also have void hands

[muted lantern]

Gms isnt void...

[stray geyser]

erm she is now

in my theory

[muted lantern]

Shes made entirely of silk, and the void kills her

[edgy nebula]

gms is void, just like hornet

[stray geyser]

exatctly vro

[stray geyser]

hands are different

[foggy fractal]

🤔

[edgy nebula]

i think this means tiso and the hunter are grimm troupe affiliated

just like trobbio and the burning bugs !

[stray geyser]

no hunters arms are shiny so no go

grimms hand is too big

tiso is stupid

[edgy nebula]

grimm does have massive hands

[foggy fractal]

the chorus' hands are too shiny too compared to vgfocus

[stray geyser]

youre too shiny compared to vgfocus

[muted lantern]

Well the hunter has six eyes so he's the lord of shades

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah true

[muted lantern]

same with herrah

[stray geyser]

8 not 6

[edgy nebula]

wow that's true

tiso and the snail shamans have black bodies so theyre clearly void related too, dont forget that

[foggy fractal]

right right

[stray geyser]

everyone is actually fourth chorus and shade lord at the same time

[edgy nebula]

https://youtu.be/r04inSpi22M?si=SVIaxcjQhrIrHTFz this is actually propaganda

[stray geyser]

this guy sounds like human chatgpt

[muted lantern]

This is the kinda shit you get tied to a chair and forced to watch by the government.

[edgy nebula]

oh watcher at the edge says karak, that's cool

[limpid summit]

E does?

[edgy nebula]

https://youtu.be/Zv_o5i1iCns?si=tXPWZbtSQbhhEmC_ right as he awakens when hornet uses the needolin

[limpid summit]

Aw

Why does he attack us for real

I can’t believe you can just take one of the last survivors of a dead race and feed his body to worms

[foggy fractal]

well he is a watcher at the edge

what is he watching for ? us.

[edgy nebula]

watcher at the edge vs worms at the edge

ngl i still subscribe to pre-goldenage karak theory, i find it more fun

[limpid summit]

What’s tha

[edgy nebula]

that karak fell before the conductors arrived

the only major point to disprove it is the crustcrags, which are pretty damning

[limpid summit]

I like that

I mean if the citadel has been steam powered since the Weavers

(Exhaust organ)

They’d need water

Maybe the crustcrawlers survived a little bit longer than the karaka

[edgy nebula]

maybe, but they also just arent present in current day karak

i suppose it also makes more sense for karak to have been around during the goldenage, since every other heart was aswell

but at the same time shakra says karak wouldve been an insane rival to the citadel, and they ruled half of pharloom which likely mean they ruled where the citadel was and then the karak timeline eats you alive

[stray geyser]

you interuptted thier nap

[muted lantern]

The empire could have seen what was coming and put themselves into stasis before the environment actually died out

[summer vigil]

Hey, i didnt feed him to no worms. He literally jumped into them when i fought that guy.
I thought it was scripted

[ocean crown]

Wait does that kill him😭

[summer vigil]

Yes

On my silk and soul, he jumped into the worm sand and died

I thought it was intentional

[muted lantern]

Lol

[edgy nebula]

no, if you knock him into the worms he digs underground and reappears

however if you stagger him and then on the killing blow knock him into the worms they shred him to pieces and spit out the memento

[summer vigil]

These worms can bite through solid shells huh

Though maybe it was dry and crunchy

[edgy nebula]

well, they only kill him if hes at the final blow, i dont think theyre all that strong

[summer vigil]

Would the guy taste like sand though