sk-lore

[spark valve]

he's the guy who kills everyone going to pay their respects at the shrine

no there is no reason for that to be his job but it is

[loud birch]

okay

why does he also forget about that?

is he unc?

[spark valve]

he's the victim of some rewriting so a lot about him doesn't really make sense

he might've been enthralled to do the job so when it ends he forgot but there's nothing around where it would make sense for it to be responsible for that

[wet shadow]

What kind of bug is scrounge?

[craggy smelt]

the easiest way I can see it happening is Hornet selective revisiting her own memory to fight her old battles - mental training, or similar
environment could be Red Memory or the regular Silkspace, with its own version of a 'hall of bosses'

[craggy smelt]

the best

[wet shadow]

Aside from that

Like a species

[craggy smelt]

her species isn't named, though she seems very similar to the Vaultkeeper Cardinius

some kinda worm like creature

cutie-bug

[wet shadow]

Free money bug

[craggy smelt]

money and lore

(marry me)

she has only one pair of visible limbs, Cardinius has two pairs, and the giant dead Vaultkeeper seems to have at least three
maybe the species develops more as they age and grow

[wet shadow]

Ok why do you want scrounge to marry you

[craggy smelt]

money, lore

beautiful singing voice

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxMMx7cj2HqvgSH_z_yVvDk0x_dndkBKUl?si=WRgkLTu6Uhac3LTp

(this is where all the shaws went)

[wet shadow]

You do you I guess

[whole holly]

Pale it, Bug it, hornet is half pale being half ascended bug and Steel Seer Comments on that

Higher Beings Lore tablets that tells everyone to Focus are also there, plus Steel Seer says Higher Creature, not Higher Being

[whole holly]

Higher Caste refers to Social Status as well, Deepnest king was higher caste but presumably not a higher being

[whole holly]

hornet inherits social status from her father but not enough divine power to make her outright Pale Higher Being

[whole holly]

she is just Pale Bug

[half zenith]

Speculation on DLC stuff: I wonder if SOS will have sirens. Two major characters are known to sing and Hornet herself can use the needolin to compel almost anyone to sing, so there’s precedent for the motif of a siren song

[whole holly]

i mean i did mention that once in discussion

.

[half zenith]

What would sirens even look like in practice? Are there bugs that use song to lure in prey in real life that might provide inspiration?

[whole holly]

it is somewhat inevitable

[whole holly]

they might be aquatic life, maybe humaniod critters, maybe Aquatic Plant-life, Coral, all the sea life

[half zenith]

Maybe yeah. Everything in this world is shown to be an arthropod tho so options are limited to bugs that look like other animals

I wonder if the needolin, tuned correctly, could be far more dangerous than it is used for

[twin dragon]

Actually sirens could be peak

[whole holly]

Songstress Bug that is as powerful as karmelita

[twin dragon]

Or a kind of bug that uses song for destructive purposes

[half zenith]

Hornet can kill people in conjured memory worlds. Admittedly a very hyperspecific, convoluted use of the needolin, but it’s there. And the citadel was able to put a god into an endless sleep. What could a rival needolin user with malicious intentions do?

[whole holly]

molluscs, because we have snails and also jellyfish like monomon

[half zenith]

Oh yeahhhhh monomon

[whole holly]

i want monomon-inspired being that manipulates her tribe with song

[twin dragon]

Eh, words? Sounds

And the killing is partly justified

[whole holly]

their bodies are similar and kinda tea

[half zenith]

Hornet uses her power for good

[twin dragon]

Not always

Shes hella racist

[half zenith]

She’s no siren tho

A malicious siren… could make for a fun scenario to fight against/deal with

[twin dragon]

Im not necessarily comparing

[whole holly]

i know but Siren is technically birds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)

[half zenith]

Does it matter? Mythology evolves

[twin dragon]

They are commonly represented as fish women nowadays

[half zenith]

Knowing how bug life cycles work, the aquatic and areal sirens could be different stages or genders of the same species even

[whole holly]

yeah but those are mermaids

[twin dragon]

TRUE

[whole holly]

personally i think they should use Mantis Shrimp for Mermaid Motif

[twin dragon]

Theyre inspired by em, both are very similar in what they do

[whole holly]

i guess

Harlequinn Shrimp would be amazing too for mermaid motif

[whole holly]

Team Cherry has to adapt mermaids in their world and i think this would be great

but we are mostly getting cut content anyways, i think, or they might something little extra

[twin dragon]

Singing lifeblood slop thingy

[whole holly]

no, Lifeblood Higher Being is Probably Butterfly, i mean that i want Old Heart like figure that uses song that would fit with Sea of Sorrows

[twin dragon]

Looks like a worm

Or a spider

[half zenith]

Anyway onto interesting discussion. I’ve said this before but a charmed debuff that gives you some regen or blessing to tempt you into letting the debuff stay on, but also makes you wander towards the siren without player input (blundering into enemies/hazards in the way) and have to fight to shake off the debuff and regain control of the player character would be so cool

[whole holly]

i get it, but Butterflies have similar biology

and eyes

[twin dragon]

We dont see much of it

[whole holly]

yeah

[twin dragon]

The lifeblood butterflies could be nice foreshadowing if it turns out to be one

[whole holly]

it does remake world in it's image

[half zenith]

Consider: the siren song and visual effects being really really pretty and unique, so a player hearing it for the first time just listens to the siren song for a bit instead of doing anything

[whole holly]

yeah, i want Player to be against Siren Song hazards and Kingdom to be hostile against her because of Song manipulation, not Plasmium Slop, i want Evil Old Heart

[light mauve]

Isn’t crust king khan evil

[whole holly]

another great idea would be Non-weaver Spider that infuses their silk with Plasmium

[half zenith]

Actually player reception aside, wanting to hear a siren song and live to tell the tale is something Hornet would do or at least consider if she was curious enough and had an excuse to try it

[whole holly]

idk, is he?

[light mauve]

He was a tyrant and they are evil

[whole holly]

she would want to investigate cause

[half zenith]

What if you could ward off a siren song by playing your needolin (would require being able to play it while walking but still)

[whole holly]

Tyrant, usually yes, technically they don't have to be

[light mauve]

@primal ingot #hk-lore message

[half zenith]

It’s canon to Greek mythology that you can ward off sirens by playing better music than them

[whole holly]

i mean i wish we got upgrade for Offensive uses for Needolin, we need actual stringer instrument and more musical arts that parallel nail arts

[primal ingot]

Comparing hornet and knight depends if we count hornet as the weaver queen, anyway both situations are dumb and by common sense we're comparing their basic forms

[light mauve]

We count her as weaver queen because it’s hornet’s peak
And it is completely hers. Power of 1 bug
While the shade lord is the void mass and not only the knight

[primal ingot]

You're confusing a hivemind with a group of independent beings

[light mauve]

The shade lord is not a group of independent beings

[primal ingot]

I worded it better

[primal ingot]

I didn't mean to say that, native is not my English language (pun intended)

[light mauve]

Then what do you mean

[primal ingot]

Read the edited message again

[light mauve]

“You’re confusing a hive mind with a group of independent beings”
The shade lord is not a group of independent beings

[primal ingot]

???????????

ahem

what I meant to say is

The shade lord is a hivemind created by Knight

My thought was that you thought it was just a group of independent beings packed together

[half zenith]

Unrelated to this but if you wanted a DLC excuse to play as Lace (same hitbox, mobility and weapon type), you would need there to be a reason for Hornet to be out of commission, and “needs to be rescued from a siren + lifeblood-infested seas” is a plausible reason for Hornet to be out of commission -from there it matters only what excuse you give for Lace to care about this in A2 (or just make an epilogue A4 for DLC stuff)

[light mauve]

The knight is still a PART of a hivemind the hive mind isn’t the knight

So we can’t consider him the shade lord we see in the p5 ending

[twin dragon]

He's the one that controls most of it

for sure

[half zenith]

Don’t he/him the knight

[twin dragon]

NOOOO

i messed up

again

I must retreat to the shadows now...

[primal ingot]

The knight is the one that has Voidheart and controls the void

[light mauve]

Yeah still the knight needed the void mass

And is just part of it

[primal ingot]

It needed the void mass to CONTROL IT

[primal ingot]

Yes it's part of the void mass, but it controls the void mass so its power is amplified

[light mauve]

Maybe

[primal ingot]

what do you mean maybe

[light mauve]

That this may be

[half zenith]

Anyway as fun as Lace DLC hypothetically is, you would need an in story reason why Hornet couldn’t be the player character for that quest

[primal ingot]

seriously?

[light mauve]

Are you not content with me accepting your point of view

[whole holly]

i personally am not sure, maybe in another DLC would it be possible since Sea of Sorrows would introduce said bad ending

[primal ingot]

I am content

[primal ingot]

Hornet is drinking gasoline with Silk

[rapid bloom]

The Knight is the one under whom the Void takes shape

[half zenith]

Oh I wasn’t thinking the end of the main story. More so, a temporary change for that quest chain until Hornet gets rescued.

[rapid bloom]

He is not the Shade Lord

[primal ingot]

abyss statue dream nail:

anyway how do i

[rapid bloom]

212%

[light mauve]

Most likely shade lord is a title of a bearer of the void heart

[primal ingot]

100% + 112%

[light mauve]

Not meaning the p5 shade lord

Who has never been stated to be called shade lord

[whole holly]

Weaver Queen absorbed silk same way that Lord of Shades unifies void under his will, they are both entirely under Weaver Queen's/Lord of Shades control, even weaver queen has different Soul Imprints and Lord of Shades may have lingering wills of siblings but those don't exist independently, they have full control of it

[whole holly]

yeah, that's void entity

[whole holly]

that would kind of be good, but Lace playing Pinolin would be interesting because she doesn't have needle, she does however orchestrate Silkflies so who knows what unique ability lace as side play character will have

[light mauve]

GMS isn’t alive with only its power being absorbed while siblings are alive and are in a hivemind

[half zenith]

Yep

[light mauve]

Two different ways of unifying power

[whole holly]

GMS thought and memories still exist just within hornet, Void Entity completely usurps all the void and there is no other will within him other than Knight he is central will because of Void Heart, at least in Dream No More and Embrace the Void ending, Dream No More doesn't take full control while Void Entity completely contains all the Void unified under knight's will

[light mauve]

Are you sure they exist

[whole holly]

plus it is not hivemind, he does not unify minds he unifies Void

[upbeat yew]

Guys, What do you think happens in the greyroot parasite ending?

[half zenith]

I’m thinking Hornet gets captured, trapped somewhere, gravely injured, mind controlled or otherwise badly knocked out of commission and out of the player’s control, but because Lace cares enough to step in and it’s possible for Lace to win this, the story keeps going, and you follow her POV until Hornet is safe

[whole holly]

yes, Eva's memories are within Hornet so are all the Weavers she binded, that's why Hornet has Silk Skills and Ancestral Arts

[half zenith]

The player takes the role of the parasite forcing Hornet to carry it out in that ending. There’s no way Hornet would let that happen under normal circumstances

[light mauve]

A parasite with a power of two gods breaks free

[half zenith]

Genius use of ludonarrative dissonance if you ask me

[whole holly]

Lace not only does care about hornet but she also relies on Hornet for Silk

[rapid bloom]

A new higher being appears

[upbeat yew]

...Like deltarune?

[rapid bloom]

An eldritch level

[upbeat yew]

😭

[half zenith]

Yes. It might be coincidence but I read it that way

[rapid bloom]

I imagine it as Cthulhu for some reason 😭

[half zenith]

The player is not literally another entity in HK

[upbeat yew]

It makes sense tbh

Hornet would never push forward with that thing inside her

[upbeat yew]

Yeah yeah not literally

[half zenith]

But rather, the player character forcing Hornet to carry out a bad ending against all logic and survival instinct becomes a framing device for an alternate route where Hornet becomes controlled by the parasite

And perhaps explains why Hornet didn’t want to wait for a safer but slower method of removing the parasite -she was worried she wouldn’t get another chance if she didn’t get rid of it right away

[whole holly]

i always interpreted them as alternate timelines, all the endings and modes are timelines for me

[rapid bloom]

You could say that

And they are all equally canon

[upbeat yew]

This took a weird route

[half zenith]

Yes! It’s a weird route!!

[whole holly]

Sealed Siblings are definitely not canon to Silksong

[rapid bloom]

One of the most awful they are

[rapid bloom]

It doesn't matter

You can cut Silksong out

In that one timeline

[upbeat yew]

Every ending in HK is canon, silksong only continues the line of one ending

Like how every route in Undertale is canon (oh my fucking god toby fox get our of my head)

[whole holly]

i guess but i thought when team cherry said that they would equally address every ending, until they do that some endings will be more canon that others for me

[rapid bloom]

Big Undertale fan?

[half zenith]

Or perhaps The Knight’s plan is to kill The Radiance from the inside (though that doesn’t explain why the story doesn’t keep going)

[upbeat yew]

Yes

[rapid bloom]

Tell me, how is Toby Fox doing with Deltarune tho?

Did he continue it?

[upbeat yew]

Deltarune is awesome, even better than Undertale

[rapid bloom]

Hmm

[half zenith]

I read a fic that changed my perception of sealed siblings entirely and convinced me it COULD lead to Silksong

[whole holly]

if game only addresses one timeline i am gonna assume that's main one

[rapid bloom]

I'll ask you another time

[upbeat yew]

It's not complete yet, but I already think it is better than undertale

[shell quest]

Anyone else ever wonder what mythology the universe would have a parallel of if it had gods separate from the pale beings we know of? Like is there a thor, a Zeus, or someone else?

[upbeat yew]

Pale being jesus

[upbeat yew]

Zote

[half zenith]

I don’t remember where the link is but basically The Radiance gets psychologically tormented by the siblings ignoring her to play cards and throws a tantrum lol, crackfic taken seriously

[whole holly]

lol, that would be amazing

[rapid bloom]

Silent Salt detected

[half zenith]

In that context -it’s not so hopeless after all, and The Knight and Hornet could hypothetically kill The Radiance from inside her own realm

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows DLC and Deltarune Chapter 5 tomorrow

[whole holly]

Hornet wouldn't get in there, i don't think she knows needolin, unless she learned everything from Weavers

[half zenith]

She becomes a Dreamer in that ending

[whole holly]

plus she definitely doesn't know Elegy of the Deep

[half zenith]

The seals activate and weaken her and do… something to her

[whole holly]

oh, right, but Her dream would take same place as Radiance's?

[half zenith]

The fic assumes that’s how it works

I see no reason to think otherwise

[whole holly]

okay that interesting

i want Plasmium Higher Being to be unrelated to Abyss Creature, Abyss Creature looks Ugly in my opinion

[whole holly]

does Seth have same hitbox as Hornet?

[half zenith]

Idk

[whole holly]

i hope Hornet becomes Plasmified and we as Lace fight Plasmified Hornet who then becomes well i guess

[whole holly]

reserve lost lace fight

[craggy smelt]

lace reawakens her latent void powers and becomes lost lace again

[whole holly]

Lace has Void Crest, lol

she inject Void Phial until she gets. Void Powers

[half zenith]

YES YES YES

Lowkey hoping for a lifeblood weird route

[whole holly]

that would be interesting

[twin dragon]

holy fanfic

Like act 3 has some cool symbolisms and parallels but what is this

[oak palm]

Yeah 😭

[whole holly]

but i was also thinking what if Root Parasite is injected with Lifeblood by some NPC and Hornet becomes Cursed Again, but also Permanently with Plasmium Overdose

[oak palm]

Like at least keep it somewhat realistic

[whole holly]

we are speculating about Sea of Sorrows DLC

[twin dragon]

Yeah uh

I'd expect some lifeblood biome shit

Lifeblood can be an invasive species

it could be good for whenever its habitat is

but straight up nukes whenever its outta it

[whole holly]

Lace does have same hitbox as Hornet and TC was planning Silksong to be DLC so second player character wouldn't be shocking

[whole holly]

Lifeblood is not natural anywhere, it is metaphysical substance

[twin dragon]

It acts as one

And we don't know if its similar to the infection

In the sense that the higher being is driving it

[whole holly]

it does act as one AND is directly tied to Dream World through Abyss Room and Godhome Room

[half zenith]

Hear me out. Weird route Lace DLC where things play out the opposite of normal act 3 -Hornet kills both herself and GMS, leaving behind Lace, a root infected mess to clean up, and a Rooted Hornet to save from herself (how in the world Hornet comes back from that would be interesting to answer)

[whole holly]

Plasmium Cursed Crest would be interesting

[twin dragon]

[whole holly]

be nice, but seriously there should be fanfic channels because Lifeblood Broken Vessels fans were bullied by Loremasters

[jaunty brook]

Ok so lace isnt actually a kid right?

She was just constructed to be a loyal child for gms

And was given that fragility so she would always have to rely on gms

Right?

[sinful nimbus]

She's a kid, part of her arc is accepting that her life has value regardless of her unique nature (And that she doesn't have to be loyal to her mother in spite of that)

Lace: Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.
Hornet: Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same mistake.

Caretaker notes that she has the mind and body of a child and her journal entry describes her as one too

One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.

Silk-spun child possessed by the void.

[sinful nimbus]

But yes this is why she was created that way

[muted lantern]

she is a kid.

[jaunty brook]

Ohhh ok

Pretty good fighting for a kid ngl

[muted lantern]

She was made to be not only physically dependant on silk but emotionally dependant, likely as an additional layer of dependance as for whatever reason phantom wasn't what gms wanted (could be because they grew up, and developed an identity beyond their mother, but thats speculation). We don't know gms's exact reasoning but the game makes it quite clear lace is still a kid despite being around since likely near the hauntings beginning, kinda like peter pan, but a much more grim and horrifying take on that concept. Caretaker spells it out. "Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most." Essentially she's stuck with the body and mind of a child. It exemplifies how horrible of a mother gms was. making a child that would forever be desperate for her attention (shown in her needolin dialogue) and then neglecting her. Shes characterized as someone whos rather verbose and had a lot of time to become skilled with a pin, but never emotionally matured, She tries to undermine her mothers plan and kill hornet not because she thinks gms's plan is evil, but because she sees hornet as her replacement. She is perfectly content to let the whole kingdom crumble around her just to get back at her mother, after deciding to betray her.

Speaking of which, does anyone have any other ideas for why phantom was discarded?

[jaunty brook]

Probably didn't revolve everything around gms

Like u said

Maybe she got her own personality and gms wasn't having it

[muted lantern]

It fits with laces needolin lines, "Why her... Mother...
See me cut! See me serve!
A child, too broken...
I will not fade! I will not take!
See me, your knight...
See me, your daughter..." Lace is desperately trying to fit what gms wants of her, in hopes she wont be abandoned and replaced with hornet like phantom was replaced with lace.

Also, the I will not fade line implies phantoms design was flawed from the start? that they faded anyway even with gms's care? they are called grey with age. It was assumed thats because they were abandoned. But maybe them aging at all was the cause of their fading, and thats why gms spun lace different?

Idk, that feels like it might be right, but I'd need other lore heads to pick that apart to really see if it holds up.

[jaunty brook]

Phantom is so underrated

If she wasn't tryna kill hornet i feel like they'd be good friends

[muted lantern]

Phantom was less trying to kill hornet and more trying to get hornet to kill them. They wanted to die in battle rather than wither away.

[jaunty brook]

Kinda like cloth

In a way

Iirc she wanted to die to be reunited with someone

[muted lantern]

Hornet and phantom do seem quite alike, moveset wise. I feel there are intentional parralels. Honestly it would be really neat because we know hornet sees thk and the vessels in lace, according to her cradle dialogue comparing the two. It would be neat if lace also saw phantom in hornet.

Honestly I think hornet and lace becoming adoptive sisters is the most likely direction for the two of them.

[jaunty brook]

I like how you think

[upbeat yew]

So you mean a kid beat me up like 12 times in a row? (Lace 2) 😦

WHO GAVE THIS KID A SWORD

[muted lantern]

Phantom, probably

They have similar weapons, phantoms is just bigger

[jaunty brook]

Honestly wish phantom was the main sister sometimes

[upbeat yew]

Same

[jaunty brook]

They're so cool

[upbeat yew]

They aurafarmed so incredibly hard that they only got one battle

[jaunty brook]

But her discarded story is cool too so

As long as i can fight her later in dlc im chill

[muted lantern]

She's definitely had some professional training, having similar parries to second sentinel, she's probably read a lot of fencing manuals. And her divine origins give her seeming super speed.

[upbeat yew]

When I beat them I was like "THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY THEY JUST DIE"

[jaunty brook]

It was her one wish

[upbeat yew]

also phantom is dramatic as hell

[jaunty brook]

To die in combat instead of wither away slowly

[muted lantern]

Do wish we got more of phantom, so much about them is left up to speculation

Even their gender is hotly debated still.

[jaunty brook]

Sea of sorrow

Sorrow = phantom

Sea of sorrow = phantom lore drop

[muted lantern]

Doubtful, phantoms likely dead in most folks playthroughs

[jaunty brook]

[muted lantern]

Idk what we'd get of them that wouldn't be in the citadel.

[upbeat yew]

They give vague trobio aura, through less like a forced spectacle and more like an incredibly violent dance

[muted lantern]

Phantom and Grimm would get along swimmingly I think

[upbeat yew]

[Insert gojo comeback image]

[muted lantern]

So would trobbio and grimm

[jaunty brook]

I've see so much art of that on twitter

[upbeat yew]

Theater kids trio

[jaunty brook]

Fr

Phantom on music

Trobbio on acting

Grim on

Dance?

[upbeat yew]

Grim is grim

[muted lantern]

The new Grimm troupe led by grim child becoming a theater troupe instead of a carnival would be neat. Might include that in my fanfic.

[jaunty brook]

One thing i wonder is

What does ghost do all day

When inside the abyss

[upbeat yew]

Tbh I wanna do a lot of comic stuff with the two silksong theater kids (phantom and trobbio) but I suck at drawing bugs

They end up looking uncannily human

[jaunty brook]

5 fingered trobbio

[upbeat yew]

-stare into nothingness

-stare into nothingness, again

[muted lantern]

If etv is canon they probably control godhome and the dream realm, godmaster mode has dialogue that implies they return to godhome to test themselves continuously, and are now worshipped by the godseeekers after consuming the realm into the void.

[upbeat yew]

Does anyone here even know phantom's pronouns

I talked about them once on Twitter and I had to delete the tweet because there were a lot of "they*"

[jaunty brook]

Thats honestly pretty cool

The godseekers get something new to worship

And the knight can still have fun

P5 for life

[jaunty brook]

This could imply a godseeker dlc for silksong

[upbeat yew]

I doubt they'll reuse an idea so obvious

[muted lantern]

They are referred to as exclusively they/them, but we have limited dialogue referring to them only the hunters journal. Lace calls them sister in a thread memory though. Some translations treat them as female or male. I imagine it's meant to be ambiguous.

One could really read them as using she/her she/they or they/them and just being fine with gendered terms like sister. I generally go with the last one as I find it makes their story more interesting, and there's lots of nb people that are fine with gendered terms like that, had an interesting discussion with some folk on this server about it. but I don't really mind any other reading as it's all rather vague.

[upbeat yew]

Phantom's pronouns being equally as vague as the bite of 87

Nice

[jaunty brook]

🤨

[muted lantern]

The hunters journal isn't always accurate with pronouns, mainly the hornet written part not the top omniscient narrator part. Hornet tends to default to they with otherwise gendered characters. But the omniscient narrator does this far less. Other than one instance of garmond being called he and they in the same sentence.

Phantom is called they in both the hornet and narrator parts tho

[jaunty brook]

Also

Whats up with their mask?

[muted lantern]

One could read garmond as going by he/they and it being accurate but who they hell knows. Its all too vague for me to be dead set on one correct interpretation. Unlike Kris deltarune where it's very clear they are enby.

[sinful nimbus]

They is neutral you can use it for men/women too

Not sure why everyone chose to read into Phantom specifically

[muted lantern]

Masks are tied to ones identity, I imagine they took up the mask to reject the identity placed upon them by gms, and to stabilize the self as they rot. The mask being loose fitting and broken probably implies their own sense of self is collapsing while they decay.

[oak palm]

Garmond isn't called he in any journal entries

[muted lantern]

People want nonbinary characters, mostly. I personally find a queer reading of their character adds additional layers. But as I said, I ain't gonna treat it as fact.

[oak palm]

Yeah it's fully up in the air

If I'm being realistic though TC probably intended for them to be female

[muted lantern]

Man I swear the line used to be different, using both, oh well.

[meager drum]

what would the silksong vinyl look like if theres no charms

[sinful nimbus]

I get wanting genderqueer rep but like there's no reason to choose Phantom over and other character

[oak palm]

Probably because phantom has hype moments and aura

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom is referred to by Lace with the word sister which means she isn't strictly gender neutral unlike say Groal or Lugoli

[muted lantern]

Its the narrative of being cast aside by your parent for reasons outside of your control that appeals to people I think.

[oak palm]

It's ambiguous but heavily leaning towards lace

[meager drum]

man I cant wait for the gay man’s magic organ vinyl

[oak palm]

At least that's how I see it

It is totally possible for phantom to be speaking there but Lace is more likely

[sinful nimbus]

I mean sure

I know you said you aren't going to treat it as fact but for the people who do I reaaaaally don't think that's the intended reading of the character (especially one who is gendered)

[meager drum]

like literally all of the automatons except the dancer’s soul

[oak palm]

To me it's only a problem when people start "Correcting" it

[oak palm]

Yeah automatons are all gender neutral

There is precedence for moss druid to be non-binary but it's all linked to this one controversial list

[jaunty brook]

Wokeknight wokesong

[meager drum]

I mean I think twelfth architect looks feminine but none of the others

[oak palm]

Feminine doesn't mean female

[jaunty brook]

[muted lantern]

In fairness there's nb people who still use gendered terms like sister. I was talking about that a bit ago. But I personally dont know if tc would be aware of such a nuance of identity. I personally consider it a headcanon, but it's one I'm fond of. I feel fandom is trained by Kris deltarune gender debate (where their identity is pretty obvious and people still gender them) to be hostile anytime it happens in any fandom. But I don't think phantom should be treated similarly, as it's not the same situation.

[oak palm]

This exactly ^^

I really just want people to accept that it's all ambiguous right now and that all interpretations are fine

[sinful nimbus]

That is true but the logic can be extended to any character in the game

[muted lantern]

I mean, the only pronouns being used being they/them but being gendered otherwise by a non pronoun term is different.

Again just arguing why phantom being read that way is common, not the factuality of it.

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

At the end of the day gendered terms are still used

You can use they/them for binary people there's not really any reason to assume Phantom is enby

[oak palm]

I still consider the dialogue ambiguous because it's simply impossible to CONFIRM who is speaking

Even if we can say with a lot of certainty that's it's probably lace

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't really matter not everything has to be explicitly stated

[oak palm]

Yeah but it's less obvious than say ze'emer being the grey mourner for example

It's based on like framing and similarity of dialogue

Framing is subjective

Similarity of dialogue is much less so but some people could still view it differently

[sinful nimbus]

How is that subjective

[oak palm]

Idk I just imagine there would be people who think Phantom is being focused on

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but views varying doesn't mean its not objective

[oak palm]

Phantom being in a tank doesn't really disqualify them from speaking because of Eva

[sinful nimbus]

Eva glows n stuff when she's talking

[oak palm]

Hmmmm

Hard to convey that in a thread memory, maybe?

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom looks like she's taking a snooze unlike Lace who is pondering

[oak palm]

From their pose in the tank I would agree

[muted lantern]

Also Eva is like, telepathic or smthn

[oak palm]

Still, even if it being Lace is more likely I feel it is not as obvious as other things. Hence I feel it is still technically ambiguous

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think it needs to be super obvious for us to know its almost definitely true

[oak palm]

Mostly arguing for this because I have seen people in SK discussion who just thought it was phantom speaking, I think

[sinful nimbus]

Its worth noting all of this is corroborated by GMS only creating daughters too

[muted lantern]

I think it's more a matter of Occam's razor. Its just a explanation that requires fewer assumptions. for lace to be speaking.

[fresh badger]

Is phantom gender the new lace age discussion 😭

[oak palm]

Yeah but that actually ties into why some people think phantom is nb

[oak palm]

Been a thing for a while

[muted lantern]

Both happened today back to back

[oak palm]

Yeah I suppose

Don't get me wrong I DO think it is lace speaking

But I'm just thinking that it's ambiguous enough rn for another interpretation to be possible

[sinful nimbus]

Lace age is vessel purity Phantom gender is Broken Vessel gender

[fresh badger]

We're not gonna get more info 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

Well

That would work but there's a lack of evidence which means it makes as much sense for this to be true of Lace or Herrah as it would Phantom

[oak palm]

Thinking about me having a dream of male phantom being confirmed not too long ago

[oak palm]

True

[muted lantern]

Also does anyone have any thoughts on this, it's a thought I had based on laces needolin dialogue that might explain why phantom was discarded.

[wheat locust]

Would it not make sense for them to be Female? even with their voice it falls in line with all of GMS's other children

[oak palm]

It was a dream gng

[sinful nimbus]

Your dream wasn't very lore accurate

Please strive to be closer to the facts next time you sleep

[wheat locust]

Nah I just mean in general with the whole argument

like

would it not make the most sense for them to be a girl?

[muted lantern]

Generally the queer reading of phantom is they were born female and are trans.

Which is what I think hay is arguing?

Don't wanna speak for him tho

[edgy nebula]

i feel like phantom being female is what is canon, but nonbinary phantom is cool

[wheat locust]

wha

[muted lantern]

What's confusing?

[muted lantern]

What I'm saying is the people who see phantom as they/them believe they were female like all of GMS's daughters but changed their identity later on

[wheat locust]

But, where is she referred to as this?

like

I know its somewhere in the Translations

but they/them are also general terms not just non-binary things

[muted lantern]

Its from them being exclusively referred to with they/them pronouns. I'm not arguing the canonicity of the idea but just why folk believe it.

[wheat locust]

But that is legitimately a general term
Are you talking about in the Hunters Journal?

I could be reffering to my friend who is a guy and uses He/Him but I could still use They/Them because its just a general thing

[muted lantern]

Its the only time they are referred to with a pronoun yeah. As I said, I'm not arguing it's canon, just giving reason to why folk would believe that. Them being called sister is generally the point against this, but people who believe in they/them phantom generally believe it's phantom speaking in that line, but I don't really agree.

Theres also just the fact people want nb characters, and nb folk see themselves in the characters story. Which is probably the main reason.

So if there's a character referred to with they people will jump on it.

[foggy fractal]

eh hunters journal inconsistent
Shakra ? refered to as her "Warrior cartographer of a tribe from Pharloom's edge. Her skills in battle could challenge the kingdom's best."
Garmond ? refered to as their whilst not being grouped with Zaza "Vigorous old knight and their noble companion, working together to see their lands cut free from haunted madness." even though we know Garmond is a he
both of these are also from the top part of the hunters journal 🧌

[muted lantern]

I generally don't view nb phantom as canonical, more just a headcanon I'm fond of, as said before I'm just giving explanation for others perspective.

[river mist]

silk isnt silk it is solid pale oil

[muted lantern]

I think fandom struggles to differentiate what the want to be true and what the text implies, which I can very much sympathize with, but it's something to be aware of.

[muted lantern]

No

Assuming this isn't a bit, GMS is the source of silk, and the sylphean slug is the source of pale oil.

The only through line is their paleness, which just shows a connection to soul, shared by pale ore.

[river mist]

oh

quick question

[muted lantern]

Go for it

[wheat locust]

Yeahh, thats a large factor

[muted lantern]

I'd love if phantom was canon nb rep, Its just hard to argue it's the devs intent

[river mist]

is this working

oh

srry

my internet left me

[wheat locust]

Yeah, like I guess it'd be cool if they were but I also just don't see a reason for it to be canon unless you want to just ignore other sources and pull up a single line that is also coming from a third-person perspective of someone that doesn't know if they're a woman or man or even a toaster or smth

[oak palm]

My argument is that it's ambiguous

And the former thing you mentioned is what I think most people who subscribe to NB phantom believe

[covert night]

what is the proof of phantom being nb

just asking, i have no idea about this discourse

[drifting meteor]

Why is

[ancient stirrup]

-# What is nb?

[twilit crest]

Afaict they haven’t concretely been assigned a gender

And the absence of gender is definitively non-binary

[ancient stirrup]

Oh thx

[covert night]

what assigns the gender? only the pronouns?

i remember some needolin dialogue saying "why us sister" in exhaust organ

[twilit crest]

Oh if that’s the case then there you have it

Idr the actual quote

[tawdry flare]

It’s unclear if it’s Lace or Phantom speaking

[jaunty brook]

Are there any other instances of weaver spawn like hornet? I know mating was a difficult process for weavers but it probably happened right?

[tawdry flare]

The cages in The Cradle describe other demiweavers

iirc there was only one other direct half-weaver, the rest were 1/4 etc

[jaunty brook]

Maybe i missed a room then

[jaunty brook]

I think they're dead

[twilit crest]

Come onnnn tc give us katamari cousins in dlc

[tawdry flare]

Oh yeah they’re all dead

Team Cherry HATES the Weavers we are NEVER seeing another living Weaver

[twilit crest]

Weaverism…

[jaunty brook]

Arachniphobia*

[twilit crest]

Cooking

[covert night]

hollow knight is anti-spider propaganda

[coral falcon]

Found Sister Splinter after spending roughly an eternity fighting Savage Beastfly

[fresh badger]

Absence of gender via misconstruing exhaust organ needolin and GMS's obsession with creating daughters*

[wheat locust]

What about the little weavers? and that one weaver we see getting weaversong

[jaunty brook]

They were talking about the demiweavers

[muted lantern]

whats misconstrued about exhaust organ needolin? sorry wasn't present for the prior context.

[jaunty brook]

Those guys are full weaver

[muted lantern]

Little weavers can't be full weavers, technically.

Since weavers are all female, weaver kids would have to be half weavers past the first generation of weavers.

[jaunty brook]

Weavers that were shrunken with silk

[tawdry flare]

thats from the game that was retconned

[jaunty brook]

😼

[fresh badger]

Phantom nb people always say its Phantom saying the exhaust organ needolin dialogue "Why us sister" to Lace, and not the other way around

[jaunty brook]

That weaver is prolly dead

Lol

[wheat locust]

what????

[jaunty brook]

Prettu sure it was infected

[wheat locust]

Like Hornet and shtuff?

[wheat locust]

nah it wasn't

it would've attacked the knight

[tawdry flare]

nah it's probably alive

[jaunty brook]

What could it POSSIBLY be doing rn

Thats the important question

[tawdry flare]

living peacefully

[muted lantern]

Doesnt have to neccesarily be a retcon (in the contradictory sense, at least, retcons kinda a broad term) i've seen some compelling explanations in the lore chat, but i wouldn't be the right one to explain them.

[proper ruin]

Hey if anybody is free can you tell me after the brutal torture from the final judge and not dying in his self destruct, in around 56 hours. why am I greeted with ACT 2!!! Why man how long even is this game. And how much things are there to do.

[muted lantern]

Well, start of act 2 is like halfway to your first ending. Can't say more without spoilers.

[jaunty brook]

Wait till he finds out about the silk and soul quest

[muted lantern]

Shhh

[twilit crest]

Wdym

[twilit crest]

I said “Afaict they haven’t concretely been assigned a gender”

We don’t know who is speaking in the needolin dialogue. So it’s unclesr

[narrow horizon]

Wrong channel, also you are far from done

Also

Giys

Guys

Gender does NOT equal pronouns

stop making this misconception

[twilit crest]

Who is?

[twilit crest]

We don’t know this for certain btw. All we see are their two silhouettes and the text. A speaker is not identified

Not that it’s really that big a deal anyway

[edgy nebula]

phantom is incapacitated, and she wouldnt say that anyway

[twilit crest]

Eeeh they might

[edgy nebula]

phantom has come to terms with her creation and her answer to it is to die in battle

[twilit crest]

It fits in with their phantom of the opera motif

[edgy nebula]

lace being newer and struggling with her self image makes me think itd be more fitting for her to say it

especially since she was likely never able to express her feelings to a conscious phantom, or atleast thats what i get from the cutscene

[twilit crest]

True. But an equally compelling theory is that it’s phantom brooding over their shit deal. Just like a phantom of the opera reference character would

“Whyyy, sister, whyyyyyy” is something I can totally see phantom saying

Idk if the line intentionally vague or if the writers just made another oversight

[graceful grail]

Dont look in sk-lore if you dont want spoiled (unless its to late)

It might be ~25-30 more hrs at your pace

Hey,
Is there anywhere that all the sign text is easily accessible??

I want the info in the slab.

[foggy fractal]

signs as in https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lore_Tablets_(Silksong) ?

[jaunty brook]

Silksong is woke

This ties into the lore

Because gms made only daughters

And phantom

[twin jolt]

the lost lace ending confirms that the absrad ending is canon right? how else would the hk be there in the void

[twilit crest]

More or less

[twin jolt]

that's my goat

[exotic kayak]

do any vessels appear in silksong

[foggy fractal]

dream no more is viable too

[twilit crest]

Shade lord so I guess technically all of them

[foggy fractal]

besides in sotv nope

[exotic kayak]

are there even any alive vessels lol

[exotic kayak]

oh

[twin jolt]

see i thought that but then wasn't there the void beast also there? or is there anyone else with six eyes

[twilit crest]

They’re all more or less undead by default so no

[foggy fractal]

if by void beast you mean shade lord/void given focus then yes it does flash on screen for a second
however its not like vgfocus is a seperate entity, its just a form the knight take on after ascending the pantheon of hallownest
the gist of it is that you have to make an assumption for etv to work (an assumption as to why the knight appears as the form they take on after normal radiance fight) and an assumption for dnm to work likewise (why the flashing of void given focus on screen)

so its ambigious between the two

[rigid vapor]

why did hornet pass out after entering act 3?

what is that answer 😭

WHY does she pass out?

okay ty

[graceful grail]

So, all of these are refrencing weavers??
Exe-

Eighth Weaver of the Twelth Generation??
And
Second Weaver of the Fourth Generation??

Penitent, Eighth of the Twelfth.
Guilty of the sin of irreverence.
Penance by chaining.
Absolution granted after death.

Penitent, Second of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sin of dissonance.
Penance by silencing.
Absolution granted after death.

And they were imprisoned by Weavers to??

[craggy smelt]

no, those are penitents, imprisoned by the Citadel
at what point is not clear

but the Slab is ancient, predating the Haunting

[graceful grail]

Do weavers eventually loose there ability to spin silk??

Look at the last sentence

This is in bilewater-
Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone,
Build those tools of brilliant mind imagined,
Aid us when our Silk has waned.

[craggy smelt]

maybe, they do suffer from aging

[graceful grail]

But the whole “Eighth of the twelfth” what does that mean??

[limpid summit]

Could be species

[graceful grail]

Also, that is confirmation that salt water is on the east side of pharloom

[limpid summit]

First of the First being FS - first weaver of the first children

To be imprisoned

[graceful grail]

The only other place we see this is the carriages that got the Weavers

[craggy smelt]

unknown, might refer to members of a group, generations of pilgrims, etc.

[craggy smelt]

yeah, that's likely where barnacle bay is going to be

[graceful grail]

Also, Widow refers to herself as Last of the First. Just like the slab poaster

[graceful grail]

So, sands of karrak isnt salt water??

[twin dragon]

Gorge

[graceful grail]

What u mean??

[twin dragon]

Geological formation formed by a river eroding rocks

so it was a river

[graceful grail]

Why Coral themed then??

[twin dragon]

Why the hell not

[graceful grail]

Coral is salt water right??

Is there fresh water coral??

Is that a thing??

[twin dragon]

idk

[graceful grail]

Oversight??

[twin dragon]

I mean is not like the coral was inside of the river

it was nearby

[graceful grail]

Coral Tower is literally the name

[twin dragon]

Yeah but it's not inside of the river

[craggy smelt]

rivers typically aren't saltwater irl, but who knows in hollow world

but Barnacle Bay has code that puts it on the east of pharloom

so that plus it having 'salt stricken waters' probably puts it there

[graceful grail]

There seems to be a lack of Lifeblood at SOK so i doubt salt water

[twin dragon]

Zylo mentions it was found there

And uh

[craggy smelt]

he mentions it was found in salt water, the waters in Karak aren't described as such, but salt water is mentioned over by Bilewater/Ducts/etc.

[twin dragon]

rivers usually aren't saltwater

[graceful grail]

Also, Ventrica travel seemed to be somewhat dangerous. But we never experience any of thoes consequences…

Due to unacceptably high injury and unsanctioned deaths, Ventrica travel shall henceforth be denied to all.
For Pharloom eternal, a bug who serves must never die.

[craggy smelt]

hrmm

Rivers in arid regions or those flowing through salt-rich geological formations become salty from dissolved minerals
There are salt water rivers in different places of the world where ground water flows in contact with salt layers
could well be something found in an underground world~!

though I don't know if this would really result in something equivalent to actual sea-water

[graceful grail]

Were these bugs in the marrow a sort of cult trying to figure out the secret of silk in everything in pharloom.

Sign outside the hideout -
In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper.

[graceful grail]

Here is the sign when you first arrive at SOK…

Coral sways,
Clear water flows,
Upon our river free of time

Coral - River

[craggy smelt]

ocean river

in Hollow World, why not

[graceful grail]

Also, Weavers Eat Bugs??

Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear,
No longer your meal

[craggy smelt]

gotta eat something

there's only bugs to eat

aside from plants or mushrooms

[graceful grail]

Mushrooms are people

Plants to

There is no escape

[upbeat yew]

I'm doing a comic about whatever the hell comes out of the greyroot curse ending

And I'm using a pretty optimistic interpretation just to not have hornet be fully gone 💔

[whole holly]

We all accepted that hornet is fully gone, pasasite absobtion may be like binding if it saps power and life which is Soul basically, so at best something like Soul Master, very bloated

[twin jolt]

so am i understanding correctly that the weavers came from pharloom, then broke off from it starting from hornet's mother and lived in hallownest, and now granny wants to see her grandchildren, is that correct?

[rapid bloom]

The Weavers that left Pharloom scattered across all of the HK world. To explain it better, the Weavers we see in Hallownest are but a fraction of them.

Hence why we see so many locations mentioned in the cages of the Cradle.

[dry compass]

I mean The Weavers went around the world

Also GMS is just pissed at the weavers. So shes just kidnapping Weaver Descendant

[twin jolt]

interesting, okay. if there was a dlc that brought weavers from all over that'd be pretty cool

[cursive granite]

cool new game idea "hollow knight "the pale origins" Its about when hallownest was free and roaming and you play as the pale king.

[upbeat yew]

you play as the pale king and your only way of attacking is using buzzsaws

Unleashing the path of pain against his enemies

[steady dome]

wait guys does grandmommy silk directly give birth to her kin like Lace or Phantom or was it through another sort of process

[upbeat yew]

She probably made her

Like a doll

Like, actually sewing together a living being

Or maybe she made her as inanimate doll, and then she gave her consciousness like she did with the weavers(?)

[whole holly]

does anyone think that Steel Hearts are going to replace Godseekers, they watch everything is it possible they will want to record memories of Pharloom or ascend hornet to fight Lord of Shades? since Lord of Shades are like Steel Masters it might pique their interests plus they watch kingdoms so they may some some relevant memories stored

one of DLCs may be about Lost Memories, like Hidden Dreams DLC for hollow knight but it makes sense they are adding content first and Boss Rush later

i think there will be protected memories like we had in Hollow Knight

[stray fog]

Someone said that there were unused godseeker sprites in silksong

[whole holly]

interesting

[stray fog]

Although that information would be much more popular if it was true

So it could just be misinformation

[whole holly]

makes sense, lot of people mistake it

[muted heron]

if hornet is a spider the her silk comes out of... yeah so if muck maggots suck the silk out of her that means that

😬

[muted heron]

Oh got it

[flat forge]

Yeah she is

[edgy nebula]

canonically weaver silk is created in their spines, though we dont know where it comes out of

[swift needle]

Clearly she doesn't as she doesn't even have the limbs of a weaver

[whole holly]

what do you guys think about this?

[edgy nebula]

the masters want chaos, i dont think theyd be dedicated to protecting memories

[low oracle]

Soul isn't meant for normal bugs, as it messes with them in various ways. How soul might relate to the infection:
The infection overtakes you through your desires and wishes, while also using manipulation. The stronger you fight back, the easier you are overcome. The use of soul implemented the idea of a solution to the infection. Hence the Soul Sanctum was a place of false hope, allowing the infection to overtake it with ease.

Additionally, higher beings are all related to soul and essence (dream stuff) in some way. Soul is life, which higher beings can create. In a way, more soul might have taken the bugs of the Soul Sanctum closer to the Radiance. Perhaps the soul was pure energy she could use.
I also always thought that the spells the Soul Sanctum uses (excluding Desolate Dive which probably came from the Shaman) similar spells to the orbs of the Radiance.

[low oracle]

If that were so, Dung defender would have the most cursed mouth. HK isn't very accurate to real life fortunately.

[whole holly]

that's interesting but i don't think tasking Steel Hearts to observe is Order based

[whole holly]

this is major speculation, Soul and Dreams might have relation but Soul can't be seen as gateway to infection, it was false Idea of soul curing infection that got them infected in first place, Soul is life, so Shamans, Pale King, White Lady would be most infected if soul helped infection, Infection happens with dreams and desires, we know that

[low oracle]

What is up with Steel hearts anyway? They are the most random ass guys, that are also afflicted with the void. And some of them are apparently literal void, as seen by Steel Assasin Sharpe who uses a void tendril attack, coming from their face.

[whole holly]

Confessor Jiji and Vassal Sula look like undercover snail shamans but i don't want to start Snail Shamans = Void theory

[jaunty brook]

I think they're descendants of that ancient void race

But dont know it

The shamans i mean

[low oracle]

I personally speculate Snail Shamans to be void/void-related, as they obviously aren't normal bugs. The void and higher beings both seem capable of resisting any oppressing force, as seen with:
-Snail Shamans don't get infected/haunted
-The Knight can't overdose on Lifeblood
-Infected Vessels aren't truly infected. Lost Kin is a broken shell, filled with infected Seeds like the Watcher Knights (Lumafly).
-The Hollow Knight isn't infected, it contains the Radiance while regaining its will. We can see the Radiance attacking out of the Hollow Knight, hence she can't actually manipulate their body itself.

Are there any points contradicting what I said? I would like to know wether my thesis makes sense. I also don't care about Snail Shaman discussion, I've pretty much set my opinion.

[edgy nebula]

not a void tendril

he’s an assassin bug

that is his proboscis

[low oracle]

They don't have any resemblances though.

[jaunty brook]

Evolution idk

I just dont know why else they'd be obsessed with void

Or really know much about it

[low oracle]

It seems very similar at least. Yes, not every black bug is void. But Sharpe has all the resemblances; White eyes (while not hidden by a hood), easily changing/transforming body + the steel affliction with void. It is all speculative, but I'd say Sharpe is more likely to be void than not.

[whole holly]

well, void vassals have more legs but them might be similar species

[low oracle]

Hey, I like that theory! Anyways, they have completely different bodies, so probably not. They also aren't completely black.

[whole holly]

okay, Snail Shamans seem to have natural connection to soul, so if that helped infection they would get infected

[edgy nebula]

i dont think so, he seems like a real person, not a mold with a singular motive, i think he’s real and the proboscis is just cartoon physics like how moorwing shoots it’s claws

[whole holly]

they might be molluscs? i guess Mollusc Mage sounds cool and also sounds like something TC would introduce

[low oracle]

Counterpoint, Snail Shamans aren't regular bugs. Their bodies are made for soul, just like the Knight. Soul Master couldn't achieve a "pure focus", hence normal bugs are not meant for the use of soul.

[whole holly]

Steel Hearts have somewhat weird lore implications

[edgy nebula]

we arent sure if their bodies are made for soul, it could be that with training theyre just highly attuned

soul master failed because he was a fool and abused his power

[whole holly]

that is not necessarily confirmed to affect vulnerability to infection, most likely reason is that Shamans have knowledge and they can avoid Higher Beings influence with their Skills

[low oracle]

Could also be the case. I just find him to look extremely similar to the shades and void tendrils. But we'll see either way, hopefully in the near future.

[whole holly]

1. trait is consistent with species 2.Shaman Crest empowers Silk Skills 3.Shaman Crest has some unique connection to runes

[whole holly]

as well as Collecting Soul and Soul curing infection was idea instilled by Radiance

[edgy nebula]

we barely see any living specimens of the shaman species, and the last two can be explained by them just having an affinity with soul

[low oracle]

The Soul Sanctum did "train" to achieve control over soul, they just didn't manage to do so. They even asked if it was at all possible, hence I doubt they were fools. When saying "made for", I'm referring to their capabilities. Obviously the Vessels are capable of using souls because of their heritage. For Snail Shamans it is likely a similar case.

[whole holly]

all confirmed dead and alive shamans have connection to soul, they might have natural connection they only ever need to be trained for spells, that's what game tells us, at least

[low oracle]

The last two? What do you mean?

[whole holly]

idk, SS and HK Shamans all have connection to Soul

[low oracle]

All Snail Shamans in Hollow Knight give you spells or spell upgrades or spell/soul charms. They obviously have an affinity for soul, all of them.

[low oracle]

I meant the fact that currently only one Snail Shaman is still alive in HK (that we know of). The one in ancient mound to be exact.

[whole holly]

even dead shamans have connection to soul as they give spells, and ones in Silksong also have Souls that are unique to them, i think Soul is natural skill and learning how to use it is what needs to be learned since they develop spells, and they have recipes, Elegy of the Deep also requires Silk which is just Soul for us

[low oracle]

By the way, who made the idea that Hornet was racist? Because she clearly only dislikes the order of the flies, not their species themselves. Otherwise she would've also killed the Broodling.

[sinful nimbus]

bro just stirring the pot 😭 🙏

[whole holly]

idk, star and tammo argued it

[whole holly]

what a coincidence, culprit appeared

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway she says she doesn't feel bad for the child slaves and says they should stop breeding that's racist

[whole holly]

maybe that's not targeting their inherent nature but their order as worst/most traumatizing part of citadel, we barely should expect hornet to be rational

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't make it not racist

[low oracle]

Do you mean they should continue the cycle of torturing others and themselves continuesly? Besides that, I doubt she would say that if they weren't ensalved to the citadel.

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think the only two options are keep enslaving the flies or commit genocide against them

Because there's a secret third option which is stop enslaving them

Groundbreaking stuff

I wonder how we go about these situations irl

[low oracle]

She commits genocide on their order. Otherwise she would have also killed the little broodling, would she have not? Besides that, how tf should she stop the enslaving?

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't commit genocide she advocates for it in her journal

You know you can say something and not do it, right?

[low oracle]

Can you send the screenshots?

[sinful nimbus]

"The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better"

Saying it would be better if certain groups of people didn't breed is straight up eugenics

[whole holly]

i mean she might have means that as empathy for the penitents, trauma, it is not about their genetics, she just doesn't like bugs in those position,

[low oracle]

Basically, yeah. Better for everyone except the citadel. I wouldn't want to be born a slave. And it isn't "groups of people". It is their specific order.
"With this one defeated, I hope to have ended their order"-Something like this is said in the Broodmother journal entry.

[sinful nimbus]

You know that order is a group of people right

[whole holly]

besides IRL morality and IRL biology aren't applicable to Silksong

[cedar skiff]

hey guys

[sinful nimbus]

Also uh yikes 😬

[cedar skiff]

oh my god bruh

[low oracle]

An order is not a race though. So no racism.

[whole holly]

which is inherently political, and not genetic

[whole holly]

it is political violence and casteism

[cedar skiff]

Slabfly discourse started 10 years ago and we’re still going. Feel old yet?

[low oracle]

Also true, we can't know how the bugs judge. Crawfather makes the (probably fair) judgement that Hornet should die.

[whole holly]

star perpetuates it

[sinful nimbus]

The "order" is a group of slaves

[cedar skiff]

the flies are a race btw who are forced into slavery simply because they committed a crime

[low oracle]

Silksong isn't even out for ten years.

[cedar skiff]

in the eyes of the citadel

to say they’re simply an order is disservice to what its trying to show

[sinful nimbus]

There's no world where you can look at someone saying a group of slaves should stop breeding and not think its racist (unless you also hold questionable beliefs)

[whole holly]

yeah, those are same group of people who restrict empathy for vessels because Pale King made sacrifice, Slabflies are similar group because they were similarly sacrificed by Citadel to perpetruate their kingdom for GMS's desire to have child

[low oracle]

Being a slave doesn't excuse torture and imprisoning innocent bugs. And if their order were more than just flies, would you make the same points you are making? I know I would.

[spark valve]

nobody is saying they aren't bad you just can't read

[low oracle]

Are you referring to me?

[cedar skiff]

like hornets ooc dialogue that william pellen wrote when he had a particularly bad day aside the slabflies are written well and a showcase of the inexcusable evils of the weavers

[spark valve]

case in point

[sinful nimbus]

They don't have agency for one for two people doing bad stuff uh isn't an excuse to kill them actually

Groundbreaking point

[whole holly]

Citadel sacrificed citizens for GMS's to have Child, Pale King sacrificed Children to have Kingdom

[spark valve]

it's a microcosm of the cycle of oppression that the citadel is all about

[low oracle]

Or conductors, we don't really know.

[edgy nebula]

wooo yeah slabfly discourse

[low oracle]

Better than most things unfortunately...

[whole holly]

plus i am sure that Hornet's kidnapping has Inappropriate Assault undertones

[edgy nebula]

ok like

no

[low oracle]

Pale King also didn't have a choice. With no other known options: Let thousands of bugs die, or save them by sacrificing something else. Either way, there was no outcome avoiding death.

[edgy nebula]

making hornet racist in the journal entries was bad, but it’s fixable

making the slaves do that to hornet? noooo i wouldnt play the game anymore

[whole holly]

guys game conforms to morality same way they conform to biology and physics

[cedar skiff]

i feel like its one of the more effective ones because of how genuinely grounded in reality it is compared to other acts of the weavers. pinning an entire false crime on a race as a justification to do horrible things to them… yeah

[edgy nebula]

i dont think theyre implying that

[sinful nimbus]

Why did the flies take away Hornet's cloak lined with sharp steely spines

[whole holly]

i think they are, she is raging and naked

[spark valve]

it's also weaponizing their faith against them with the concept of sin and atonement it's good stuff

[low oracle]

Why did they not give her clothes like the other penitents ?

[cedar skiff]

also no it was likely the weavers since the slab was established while they were still ruling

[sinful nimbus]

So grounded in reality that you even have people making racist justifications for why it was ok actually

[whole holly]

and play with it as roleplay and impulsive gratitude

[sinful nimbus]

When on earth would they get the chance to do that

[spark valve]

they took hornet's cloak because it was filled with compartments and lined with steel spines

of course they would take it it would be insane not to

[whole holly]

leave her with penitent clothes with her when she wakes up dude

[low oracle]

When they took her stuff??? Obviously they had to have opened the cage at some point.

[cedar skiff]

truth nuke!

[spark valve]

and bugs have no concept of modesty this just isn't a big deal and y'all are gross trying to use it to justify bad shit like actually get the fuck out

[cedar skiff]

i feel slab fly entry is too niche and untalked about in the wider community for tc to be made aware of the slip up otherwise i rly believe theyd change it like with green prince

[edgy nebula]

whatd they change about gp?

[cedar skiff]

showcasing verdania regrowing after he dies

[low oracle]

Racism is not discrimination. If Hornet hates their entire order, she is discriminating against them. If Hornet hates their entire species, she is racist towards them.

[cedar skiff]

otherwise it just seems like hornet killed a gay bug for fun since its an entirely optional encounter

[edgy nebula]

i mean, canonically she sorta did, no?

[sinful nimbus]

"Racism is not discrimination"

[low oracle]

Put Green Prince out of his misery or something idk...

[sinful nimbus]

And then he clicked POST

[edgy nebula]

she justifies the fourth heart’s death because it was a challenge of strength, then hangs a still-beating heart with the power of 1/3 a pale being on her wall

[whole holly]

it wasn't but Hornet is not moral person and judging by how casteist game generally it, that's to be expected, since Higher Beings are above others bugs and hornet is daughter of one, Pale King also punished those who went against him, Hornet is similarly going to go against group that perpetrated assault against her as collective and roleplayed with her cloak, she doesn't feel remorse against group because they are cause of trauma, regardless of Citadel did it, Hornet was vulnerable enough to feel fury against species and she wants to end the cycle

[cedar skiff]

well it gives it the impression that good came out of it and it wasn’t in vain. then you can go further and make interpretations about how this came to be and hornet’s approach etc. its a nice touch up. i also feel like the reason something similar wasnt done with karmelita is because of the shitty homophobia that came out of the storyline online in general

[low oracle]

If I discriminate against Nazis, who am I racist against? Are you really not competent to see the difference? Racism is always discrimination, discrimination isn't always racism though.

[sinful nimbus]

Wait until you find out what Hornet is discriminating against

You're so close

[spark valve]

man why does this topic make people just instantly become evil

[whole holly]

bugs don't have sense of modesty but morality definitely is useful criticism against her and game full of bugs

[cedar skiff]

I say this every time this discussion happens but hornet feeling compassion for the flies would be in line for her character considering how she’s shown to feel about the vessels and lace despite all their numerous attempts to genuinely end her life. It would hammer in the point that she’s different from the weavers in that she doesn’t perpetuate their way of thinking despite many in the citadel assuming she does.

[whole holly]

Modesty and Morality are both social constructs either apply both to game or none , don't pick and choose

[cedar skiff]

like its just bad writing

[spark valve]

it would be and it's basically character assassination that she doesn't given that in hk part of her whole thing is being sympathetic to vessels and their condition but having no choice but to fight them anyways

[cedar skiff]

theres other bits of dialogue that showcase hornets royal status without being totally bad taste l

[sinful nimbus]

Morality exists and the nudity taboo doesn't its not deep

We have confirmation that it doesn't

[whole holly]

given vulnerable position and hostile environment she was in for part of game, she is going to be radicalized, as that would happened to mind

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet comes from an "all nude kingdom"

[cedar skiff]

its a bad faith spiders dont like flies joke and her fucking with them would have actually been a funny and interesting subversion

[whole holly]

do we have confirmation for morality???

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah play the game and/or exercise common sense morality will always apply when sapient beings are involved

[cedar skiff]

i will find out whether it was pellen or gibson who wrote this entry it wont be difficult. they will pay.

[whole holly]

that argument also applies to modesty

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[cedar skiff]

She wasn’t radicalised towards the vessels after everything

or lace

[whole holly]

vessels didn't roleplay with her cloak for sensual gratitude

[edgy nebula]

theyre slaves

[cedar skiff]

vessels fucking try to kill her

[edgy nebula]

theyve never seen clean clothes in their life

[cedar skiff]

lace mocks her consistently

also personally annoying you isnt an excuse to wish for the death of an entire oppressed race i think we’ve been over this

[whole holly]

is it in their descriptions to roleplay with them for fun???

[whole holly]

she knew she could handle herself

[sinful nimbus]

"Maybe Hornet is just a moron"

Not really great writing anyway

[whole holly]

Lace's words mean nothing compared to Hornet being vulnerable and in extremely hostile environment , Prison radicalizes people and if star want to apply social constructs she should also understand Social and Psychological factors for it's absence

[sinful nimbus]

Can she not grasp that individuals of a group can do bad things and that this isn't an excuse for wiping them out

[cedar skiff]

can you just admit its bad writing and move on because i fail to see what argument you’re trying to get at here in the end?? like that hornet isnt in the wrong for this?? is it because you want to be right about it for the sake of being right or because you have an issue with sympathising with an oppressed race when the entire game has you encouraging to do that

[sinful nimbus]

Because spoiler alert everyone has seen an individual of a group do a bad thing

[whole holly]

with things done to her, she would choose not to let it go

[spark valve]

no you don't understand they wore her cloak or something so they deserve to be wiped out

also the slabfly entry doesn't require hornet to get captured

she's just like that

[cedar skiff]

they say ficiton doesnt affect reality but this is deadass how people go on and talk about irl oppressed races

yeah this one person did a bad thing so they all should be deported

[spark valve]

yes and it's revolting that people do it here and they should lowkey be banned for it

[whole holly]

how do you guys enter slab without getting captured, i keep trying to and i can't unlock most of slab area

[cedar skiff]

frankly i think this string of discussion shouldn’t be banned as a whole like some people suggested because it’s important to discuss but people that argue like nika need to get out of here man

[spark valve]

the string of discussion doesn't have to be banned because slabflies in general are thematically interesting

and like

[jaunty brook]

How does time work in the world of silksong

[cedar skiff]

yeah

[spark valve]

the fuzzy line between being a victim and responsible for your own actions is relevant

[whole holly]

i mean they are social constructs, reason she doesn't feel altrusim is because of environment affecting sapient being's mind and conditioning them to not feel altrusim

[jaunty brook]

They don't really have a day and night type system

[cedar skiff]

i guess time passes but there isn’t a visual indication

we always see bugs sleeping and stuff so we can assume they have some inner circadian rhythm they go by

[spark valve]

in pharloom they measure time in beats and measures, could be arbitrary or could be based on the citadel or something else

or no they measure time in tolls

the beats and measures are the goods

[jaunty brook]

I see

[cedar skiff]

i always wondered about how theres so much weight put on these things via lore tablets its a thing that’s scarcely discussed i feel

[spark valve]

I mean they're kind of minor things that it makes sense to have in that context

[cedar skiff]

i recall discussions about the significance of certain numbers, like 1 through 12. i wonder if theres any sense to be made of these things or if team cherry likes numbering things for aura sake

[whole holly]

i am not saying it is okay, of course racism is bad, but implying something about me saying i need to get out, is not okay, Hornet's actions aren't justified and we don't need to excuse her, but there is still explanation, saying modesty doesn't matter and morality does in fictional game that commits to neither, then getting surprised when in fact Game resembles natural ecosystem more than Conventional Society( because of various factors) is silly

[cedar skiff]

even if it isnt ill intended some of the arguments youve made tether on things people use to justify oppression in real life and it gets uncomfortable at some point

[limpid summit]

It is the big 26 how are we still not interpreting the slabfly lines as in poor taste

[spark valve]

I mean 1 is significant because it can denote the first
idk what the significance of 12 would be

[limpid summit]

Nika this isn’t you

[stray fog]

So its one of those days in #sk-lore

[whole holly]

there are sapient beings bankrupt of altrusim, Weavers, Wyrms, Snails, we just get upset because we project our selves onto characters, that's psychological phenomenon, Snails do lot of genocide for spells and don't get phased when Knight acquires those spells

[cedar skiff]

first of the twelve twelfth architect yadda yadda im going to find you team cherry

the great silksong calculations

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't they use numbers of religious significance are they stupid

[limpid summit]

As the protagonist Hornet isn’t supposed to be a pillar of morality in every sense of the word but the narrative never punishes her for her words

[cedar skiff]

these ideas fall apart when the game doesnt make a point to explore them compared to the narratives that purposefully parallel real life

[whole holly]

i hate it too but it's not like game ever shows morality or altruism as social norm

[limpid summit]

Like there’s never a moment where she sits back and recognizes the situation and is like maybe I was too harsh

No old penitent dialogue no brooding dialogue

[cedar skiff]

xX666_LostGarmond_666Xx

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are of course never ever framed as the bad guys

[stray fog]

They probably didn't want to reference any irl religions

[sinful nimbus]

Neither is GMS because uh morality doesn't exist (???)

[spark valve]

I mean they do that

rosaries

[sinful nimbus]

144000th architect

[whole holly]

they parallel ecosystems and universal nature/instincts of motherhood as well, we simply resonate with social messages more

[spark valve]

pontiff

[stray fog]

[cedar skiff]

they did make a point to avert from a direct name drop with biblical absalom

[whole holly]

selective outrage, because Snails Shamans and Soul Master do unspeakable things(equal to genocide) for Spells and Knight consumes it like it is nothing

[spark valve]

that's the equivalent of just changing a letter to hkify something it's still a pretty direct name drop

[limpid summit]

They aren’t good people

Hornet is painted as a good person

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah because taking a spell is an endorsement of their actions

[whole holly]

no one in game is

[cedar skiff]

the motherhood storyline is directely tied to the so called societal issues because the cycle of abuse between mothers and daughters is symbiotic with the continuously oppresive political system

[limpid summit]

So for her to have this unrecognized deep flaw is strange

[whole holly]

she is saviour, she was never moral, first game she kills vessels and she was to work on herself to feel empathy towards knight

[cedar skiff]

it wouldnt even be compelling writing for this to be some deep psychological exploration of morality because hk already tried to do that with the pale king storyline and it landed better

[whole holly]

if we apply social norms like you do yes, selective outrage and morality is hypocrisy, knight taking spells is benefiting, it is like profiteering from genocide

[limpid summit]

Hornet grows from thinking the Citadel is all GMS to understanding the part mortals and Weavers played in its perpetuation. She grows from not understanding the pilgrims’ devotion to emphasizing with them. She stays racist

Of course in a universe like HK morality is relative but it’s a copout to not have your main character who is obviously capable of growth remain bigoted

[whole holly]

that's true, but hornet's nature is not surprising, knight is basically not expressive, Grimm is presumably not moral either

[limpid summit]

She literally sees and experiences things that could easily change her worldview and doesn’t care

[cedar skiff]

but the game does make a point to remind us that our social norms widely apply there too?

like slavery is actively seen as a bad thing by everyone

[whole holly]

it is and that's not good writing, but game says she is multitude within one, so it is Beast Crest talking i promise

[stray fog]

Bugs are obviously personified in hk, so why shouldn't there be human social norms there

[whole holly]

that could apply to modesty but that's primarily reserved for Sapient Bugs

[spark valve]

you can't be falling for the most obvious smoke and mirrors shit

gang this is what's called a bad faith argument

[whole holly]

but honestly Hornet has her flaws, she was deeply flawed character since first game, she actively demeans us and environmental factor brought out worst in her, that shouldn't be shocking concept

[cedar skiff]

i was on the line with this being just a showcase that hornet if flawed for the longest time but frankly it is such a badly placed and out of character flaw that it makes zero sense

[whole holly]

i always interpret Slabs are Cultic Slaves to their God, not as ethnic group because hornet presumably judges them for their Caste/Actions related to it and Environment they create, it is frankly weird because i interpreted that hornet was Inappropriately assaulted and they were sensually/inappropriately roleplaying with her cloak for sensual gratitude

[cedar skiff]

it doesnt even have pay off to show that hornet grew from t

like maybe a quest in act 3 that has hornet helping the flies or something

nothing

just overall lacklustre

[spark valve]

<@&283547423706447872> can y'all maybe tell this guy that making up shit about sa to justify violent rhetoric about a group is like bad actually

[whole holly]

i interpreted whole game as nurture/envoromental factors are more important that nature

[twilit crest]

Wdym

[cedar skiff]

it never gets shown that hornet changes her mind about the flies

its not a thing she progresses from

and for such a thing to remain an unadressed flaw all the way towards the ending is unsatisfactory and plainly bad writing

and yes its relevant for it to be specifically resolved because its a major thing

[spark valve]

it's clearly not what they intended they just didn't think about it

[twilit crest]

Her mercy towards the little broodmother is a fair enough indication but it could’ve been more explicit

[cedar skiff]

yeah exactly

[spark valve]

but that doesn't make it not really bad and making excuses is gross

[cedar skiff]

im arguing against the idea that it was added to showcase that hornet is flawed because it wouldnt make it less terribly handled

[whole holly]

i think that hornet's character and altruism is deeply conditional and Hornet in vulnerable position and hostile environment made her worse character overall

[spark valve]

it isn't framed as a flaw whatsoever

[limpid summit]

Just before, she did say “I hope every single fly dies” after killing the mother

[twilit crest]

And then she let the child live

[limpid summit]

Wow

Good job hornet

[twilit crest]

I think the journal was probably written by someone who wasn’t on the same page as the main story writing.

[limpid summit]

This is a 2 person team

[whole holly]

Tammo is still arguing that i am making excuses because my interpretation goes against his narrative that Slabs are solely victims and nothing else, when falsely building moral high ground for Slabflies is not okay either

[limpid summit]

Uh

Slabflies don’t have to be good people personally for Hornet to be wholly unfair

Holy SHIT

😭😭😭

[balmy reef]

really hit us with the both sides

[twilit crest]

There are no credited writers in IMDb

[limpid summit]

You think it’s some random racist guy

[whole holly]

???

[edgy nebula]

because team cherry used chatgpt to make up slabfly journal entries

[twilit crest]

Who said that?

[limpid summit]

Nika the words both sides bad are often used with a worse connotation

[spark valve]

the slabflies do in fact do bad shit
but making up stuff about sa and arguing that therefore it's whatever to straight up use eugenics statements against them is missing the point of what the slabflies are narratively in addition to being just gross

[whole holly]

no i am literally, advocating for human rights but hornets imprisonment felt really weird, some things weren't shown in game but i interpreted that hornet was deeply wrong

[whole holly]

yeah, i saw it as soon as i posted it

[twilit crest]

I think it was probably just a writer putting a foot in their mouth after trying to find a way to express how angry hornet is at the bugs who imprisoned and stripped her naked. It’s just too out of place

[limpid summit]

No I get it

[balmy reef]

im not versed enough in lore what specifically are you arguing

[whole holly]

guys lets drop the subject

[limpid summit]

But like here you see how this point of view skirts real life unfavorable rhetoric

Yeah that’s probably best

[balmy reef]

actually nevermind

[twilit crest]

Oh you guys were arguing?

[balmy reef]

dropping it is better

[twilit crest]

Welp ok

[whole holly]

The Slab imprisonment seems to have inappropriate assault connotations

[cedar skiff]

the slabflies are an oppressed race that hornet makes really bad faith comments against and nika is making arguments that genuinely tether on how people argue the justification of real life oppression and its really uncomfortable

[twilit crest]

She was stripped but idk if it goes any further than that

[edgy nebula]

no it doesnt huh 😭

[cedar skiff]

this keeps happening too

like it gets to a point

[whole holly]

but for everyone to be on same page hornet's actions are inexcusable

[spark valve]

'why did the slab take away the cloak lined with pockets containing equipment as well as reinforced with steel spines surely this is about assault'

[whole holly]

morally bankrupt and unfortunate for her character development

[edgy nebula]

the flies stripped her because her cloak houses weapons and tools, and the naked hornet segment is played for jokes

if it was about assault it wouldnt be taken so jokingly

[balmy reef]

she's a bug it's not like there aren't naked bugs everywhere in pharloom

[twilit crest]

Stripping a person naked is assault but Idt tc was going for that angle intentionally

[edgy nebula]

also even if a group of like 5 slabflies took her cloak i dont think that means she suould want every one of them dead

[twilit crest]

And if they were, I guess it goes to explain why she snapped that one slabfly’s neck

[whole holly]

"jokes" and it is a slabflies playing with her cloak which is innocent and morally acceptable for lot of people

[balmy reef]

please just drop this conversation it's clearly making people uncomfortable

[whole holly]

please can we drop it now?????

[twilit crest]

Honestly I think it just was a writer trying to be cheeky with a journal entry and didn’t see what they might’ve implied

Oh damn ok

[edgy nebula]

agreed

what else should we talk about

[twilit crest]

That bad huh😭

[whole holly]

Soul

[spark valve]

they do this shit constantly

[edgy nebula]

holy shit yeah nevermind im staying here

sk-discussion isnt a safe place

[twilit crest]

I just got here and everyone’s either fighting or sending fat bowser gifs

[whole holly]

we were talking about this originally

[whole holly]

they do this too often

[balmy reef]

idk man

[whole holly]

do you guys think that every shaman has connection to soul

[twilit crest]

They seem to have an inclination towards soul but idk if that’s through birth or just their tribal custom

I’m willing to believe the latter

[whole holly]

i mean tribal customs make more sense about Spells which have to be made and learned but even Dead Shaman's Soul can be sensed, they are special in some way, Shaman Crest gives us some unique powers

[twilit crest]

Yeah but the word shaman implies a level of training and knowledge being required for the title.

Their spells are teachable but only from another shaman

So maybe culturally they just have a lot of value in studying soul and void. But Idt a snail is born a shaman

[whole holly]

i think that Snail is both with natural ability for Soul that they need knowledge of

[twilit crest]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-perhaps-family-guy-thinking-gif-11779099

[whole holly]

what does this mean?

[twilit crest]

Peter griffin saying perhaps

[whole holly]

oh, yeah

i want to think that Sula and Jiji are species bound by masters, not necessarily Steel Folk, do you think they are Ancient Civilization descendants

[low oracle]

Or having a crest discourse, boss tier lists, tool tier lists, and the most random off-topic discussions.

[low oracle]

I don't think they are, seems kinda out of place.

[whole holly]

hey, you introduced Hornet Slabfly topic, what did you think was gonna happen

[twilit crest]

Not that I hate any of it (except the fighting) but man we gotta switch it up a lil

[whole holly]

you don't think they are steel people or AC people?

[low oracle]

I just stated my personal reasoning and won't continue the discussion as per the mods request.

[whole holly]

best we have is Sea of Sorrows

[low oracle]

I don't think they are descendants of the ancient civilisation.

[whole holly]

i mean lot of bugs we know from ancient civilization, which are unique and varied, but like i once suggested they might be Mollusc Mages who are somehow connected to void from origins

[twilit crest]

I felt very good about my sos theories until that submarine clip leaked

And now people don’t seem to think we’ll get crests at all? Which seems unlikely to me.

[whole holly]

i didn't have theories , i just think we will get plasmified boss, a crest, maybe something related to godseekers

[whole holly]

yeah, if we bind Zylotols masters we might get alchemist crest which i think is thematically similar to Witch

and Shaman

[stray fog]

Ngl the fighting is so unnecessary

[twilit crest]

If that corpse is the master I wonder who interred it

I doubt that corpse is the master but I do think the master is in this dlc

[whole holly]

yeah, some are straight up aggravating people for fun of it

[twilit crest]

It’s people’s inclination to wanna be right about everything multiplied by the “joy” of ragebait. Typical discord happenings. Just annoying when it pops up

[whole holly]

that's interesting, Sea of Sorrows better have information about Lifeblood, we might get some semblance of Essence, we need it and song too

[whole holly]

i don't find joy in ragebaiting people, but people straight up try to violently shut down opposing opinions

[whole holly]

i want Lost Memories theme in game asap

[stray fog]

But why does the lore channel specifically attract redditor-like people

[whole holly]

it feels like two groups Tumblr vs 4chan, and Discord and Reddit(which are spiritual descendants) are fighting for relevance/importance

that's just my opinion personally

[low oracle]

What? The thing covered by the blanket obviously resembles a body in a chapel, it even has all the candles and stuff. So I really think it is likely there will be a crest.

[narrow horizon]

Crest of the sailor with buffed clawline damage and effects 💕

[low oracle]

I think there'll also be something that has long lasting impacts on gameplay, such as a crest, tools and so on. Otherwise the dlc would become somewhat boring after a while, since it doesn't add anything to the core gameplay like hidden dreams, grimm troupe, etc.

[narrow horizon]

quick slash/unbreakable strength tool incoming (we're so fried)

[fresh badger]

Sporeshroom tool when

[narrow horizon]

Claw mirrors but worse

[whole holly]

i agree, game needs it for fun and aesthetic

[fresh badger]

Make it a red tool and have it found by the mr mush tablet, shoots spores

[whole holly]

Mushrooms and Jellyfish made game feel incredible unique

[whole holly]

Silk Shot but Mushroom, affected by Poison Pouch?

[low oracle]

Monomon and Mr. Mushroom, the most important characters in the lore!

[whole holly]

exactly, i want to see Monomon-like Old Heart that can sing and uses it for villainy

[low oracle]

Not gonna lie, poison pouch should affect blue tools too. If it should be an OP tool is should even buff regular needle hits.

[twilit crest]

I think so too, but I’ve heard an argument that because the specific word crest is omitted from the official promo copy, that new crests are deconfirmed. Seems like a stretch to me ngl

[whole holly]

not really, Poison Pouch should rely on Offense not passive poison for claw mirrors

[narrow horizon]

It would still be hyper mid cuz the damage is actual dogshit

[low oracle]

Old hearts are just powerful rulers right?

[twilit crest]

I’m just saying it would be super dee duper cool if tc was lurking and fulfilled my wish of letting Hornet do this

[whole holly]

yeah, why can't i have powerful rulers

[low oracle]

I don't know what any of that means, but I agree it must be a stretch.