sk-lore

[dry compass]

Could the Coral Kingdom be the only Native Pharloom Kingdom/Tribe that actually fought the citadel

I mean Verdania just let Citadel step on them

The Skarrs possibly adopted some Citadel Culture by there usage of Rosaries

So could The Karakians been the only ones actually attempting to fight the Citadel

[edgy nebula]

yeah this it what i took it as

"None left to resist" is nonsensical if you look at it any other way

[muted lantern]

Considering khann reference the pale light he could have been fighting GMS and the weavers before the were sealed.

[dry compass]

And you could say stilkins also fought the citadel but they didnt do much from what i know

[muted lantern]

If Khann is alive is he haunted? He's covered in silk

[edgy nebula]

stilkins were lead by a chieftain hellbent on control

[edgy nebula]

no, you find that in every spot where you have to use elegy of the deep

[muted lantern]

I wanna know more about stillkin culture.

They are cool

[edgy nebula]

it's on the nyleth statue, it's behind karm, and it's on the cogwork dancer's corpse

[muted lantern]

I hate that stillkin don't use a blowgun but just hold their explosive poison darts in their mouth

Like bro

Gross.

Then again, they eat muckmaggots, so

[edgy nebula]

what is the death rate of stilkin accidentally poking their tongue with the darts and dying

[muted lantern]

They are prob immune to poison, but the bombs are concerning, considering we know those damage them, since it's the same material as the bubbles and exploding bugs.

[edgy nebula]

ok im going to bed cause it's 4 am goodnight sk-lore

[dry compass]

I mean from what we see. Stilkins have traps that could either be used for Hunting ot Just fighting

And the Stilkin Trapper exists

[edgy nebula]

remember, crustcrags are a lie made up by Big Citadel to make you think they're even more evil than they actually are

[muted lantern]

If a stillkin accidentally chewed on their blowdart absentmindedly their fucking head would explode

[dry compass]

Mouth

[muted lantern]

I wonder if they are supposed to be mosquitos, they have the probiscus and some have wings

[dry compass]

Squits crying in the corner

[muted lantern]

Well we see sapient and non sapient variations of the same real world bugs sometimes iirc

[dry compass]

I mean yeah some bugs are hard to pinpoint what the hell are they

E.G craws. so maybe Stilkins are mosquito

[muted lantern]

I mean craws are just crow but bug I think

[dry compass]

i mean i always thought Craws were mites but selectively bred to the point there Birds

[muted lantern]

Tc might have also just forgotten what a bug is

[rapid bloom]

No, he is not

He is both alive and dead

[ionic basalt]

he prob died and the silk covered him

or maybe hibernation cause you can still access his dreams

[dry compass]

Accessing dreams means hes hibernating??? I thought most of the dream bosses in HK and Silksong respectively were

Dead.

[gentle aspen]

khann’s not dead yet

none of the old hearts are currently dead

Until hornet rips out their heart

the “dream thing” is reinvigorating them to fight them at their peaks

[dire lynx]

we know hes hibernating because when karaka die they turn to crust, which doesnt happen until you take his heart

[twin dragon]

Nyleth is shellwoodslop

[dry compass]

Damn

[twin dragon]

dehydrated ahh mf

What will the karakas around him think when they wake up

[dry compass]

"the fuck happend to our king"

[austere tendon]

In the case of the one in silksong, no because plot.

Lore explanations, idk. Id imagine since silk is connected to soul. Soo maybe the song let's hornet resonate with the souls and see their dreams or memories.

Bonus thing I found: I needilon plays a variation of Dies irae, which in musical theater is often used as short hand represent death

[dire lynx]

pretty much this lol

[twin dragon]

and their leader is dematerialized

[dire lynx]

have a look at the motifs in like every silksong ost

[dire lynx]

the best part is, that for all they know he just rehydrated first and ran off lmao

[austere tendon]

I haven't yet, but I will cause I'm obsessive.

[swift needle]

The song subdues Grand mommy silk and lessen her power that's why the weavers built the bellshrine

https://tenor.com/view/scp-wish-i-knew-scp-wish-i-knew-gif-3623425954504276893

[austere tendon]

Yes the grand song of the Citadel im talking about the elegy of the deep and the needolin ability to see and enter memories.

[swift needle]

That's just the spells of the shaman and weavers already had needolins of their own

Seen in widow memory

Dies irae plays EVERYWHERE in the ost even the bell shrines and title screen

Butttt

If you get the true ending and defeat lost lace

You get a lighter version of it

Symbolising hornet overcame that fate

How I feel after spending 500 hours on hollow knight ailksong

[twin dragon]

Choral chambers has an inversed version of the motif

[swift needle]

Vell beast needolin also has a lighter version

[twin dragon]

Which is very fitting considering what the citadel wanted to do

[austere tendon]

Yes the elegy of the deep is given by the shaman, but the needilon can access people minds before that. I'm curious with the fayforn I wonder of weavers were aware of da moths.

[swift needle]

This is just a theory but the only reference of a tuning device in hk was the godtuner which we see in their dream and in sk we see the tuning device for the fayforn i wonder if these two tuning devices were used for the same purpose(to summon a god)?

[swift needle]

It's not confirmed that the fayforn is a silkmoth btw

[austere tendon]

Ik, but a girl can speculate

Cry cry 😢

What if hornet cried do you think she has to empty the tears out of her helmet

[stray fog]

The 2 devices are so different though

The fayforn one is just a tuning fork

[austere tendon]

Its still a note worthy property.

[stray fog]

Hold on

Tuning fork = produces waves of a specific frequency
Resonance (in the context of circuits) = achieved at a specific frequency

🤔

[austere tendon]

But that's just a theory a string theory

Pfff jfkyfi I dclgf

[stray fog]

This is what I'm talking about

[whole holly]

there is common theme of tuning/attuning to meet special/higher being

[whole holly]

there is also musical resonance, music also has frequencies

[stray fog]

🔥

[whole holly]

maybe Godseeker had song

[stray fog]

This relates back to the tuning fork

[gentle aspen]

good job you’ve learned what godseeker was doing

[stray fog]

Professional hater ^

[whole holly]

lol

Godseeker's resonance is related to Light thematically, resonance is silksong is related to sound/song, they both have resonance irl

[stray fog]

I thought godseeker's resonance was also about sound

Because she uses a god*tuner*

[whole holly]

light also has resonance and they were searching for light

[whole holly]

A “tuner” isn’t limited to music‑oriented gear. The word simply denotes anything that adjusts, calibrates, or aligns a system to a desired target. Below are the most common domains where tuners appear, along with brief notes on how they’re used.

there are radio tuners, and radio waves are light we can't see

[stray fog]

So ig the word is applicable to all waves

[whole holly]

yes, in Sea of Sorrows we will tune Water Waves

[gentle aspen]

I’m not hating I’m being genuine

that is what she does

she’s a musical tuner

[stray fog]

Yeah

I was 12 when I first played hk so I wouldn't have known about electromagnetic waves and resonance

[terse warren]

Godtuner is used to tune with gods not to summon them

And fayforn isn't a god

Oh that was 30 min ago mb

[austere tendon]

Me too honestly.

[wintry compass]

do you guys think that the citadel is sleeping because GMS hates what it represents? the betrayal of the weavers, so she shut it down - all the enemies there are awakened from the dead I think

after hornet arrives

[whole holly]

yeah but you are still right, Godseeker tunes Light not Sound/Song

[low oracle]

The Weavers in Hallownest were pretty independent from others (aka Deepnest), so they likely never interacted with the moths, neither of the ones following the Pale King or the Radiance. They also probably left Hallownest because of the Infection.

[whole holly]

we aren't sure about Fayforn status, they don't seem to be high caste despite weaver devotion and their divine power

[low oracle]

The haunting and the infection both overtake live and dead bugs all the same. Sherma enters the citadel, hence we know Pilgrims still continue the cycle of song and toil. While some bugs are dead, others aren't.

[wintry compass]

hm

what does 'sleeping citadel' mean then

because when you enter the citadel nothing's awake until you meet lace

[stray fog]

Why did vespa train hornet?
Wasn't the hive isolationist

[whole holly]

GMS commands them with Silk and unless she doesn't want citadel to be active they are in Stasis, which is Sleeping Citadel

[stray fog]

And even if it wasn't isolationist, why would vespa care about hornet

[whole holly]

i though about that too, but i think it wasn't diplomatic relation rather than personal one, since Vespa acts as mother

[whole holly]

because she related to young princess she once used to be , i think

[wintry compass]

that's what I thought, and I was thinking that she put them in stasis because the citadel to her represents her daughters' betrayal as the citadel largely exists to keep her asleep

also the song need not continue cuz well she doesn't want to be lulled to sleep?
but the toil still continues as the underworks are active?

[low oracle]

Fayhorn and Nyleth are both potential higher beings, the latter being the more obvious one. Shellwood resembles Greenpath in various ways (apart from plant theme), such as being created by one living creature alone. Since Seth is also affected by some spell, I would count Nyleth as a higher being, capable of gaining followers.
Fayhorn is probably a higher being, at least it is more suggested to be than not. The entire mountain is named after it too, even if it doesn't have any apparent followers. But from what I've heard Mr. Mushroom interacts with it, which seems odd for a normal bug to do (I didn't do Mr. M quest yet though).

[whole holly]

Song/Threefold Melody is Automatic

[wintry compass]

oh yeah true
but it still doesn't seem to be playing until hornet finishes that music puzzle

[whole holly]

Weavers were followers , they built everything to commune with it

[low oracle]

The alive pilgrims and the ones unaffected by the haunting likely hid. Only after ringing the bell in first shrine do they come and build Songclave, hence they likely weren't going about in noticable groups.

[wintry compass]

ah that does make sense

[dry compass]

I feel like Vespa allowed Hornet in mainly, to train her

And possibly considering back then Nations traded princesses for marriage i think Herrah did that with the Hive

[wintry compass]

did they make it past the last judge then

because doesn't she not allow anyone past

and the few that do pass are taken to the underworks

[stray fog]

<@&283547423706447872>

[low oracle]

Weavers are technically Grand Mother Silk's followers, even if they appease other higher beings. Besides that, there are no changes that happened to any of them. The mosskin on the other hand only left Unn after being infected, while the moths sought out the Pale King's brighter light.

[wintry compass]

also speaking of weavers I have something of an explanation for mossbag identifying herrah being a 'common beast' in HK despite having weaver lineage as a retcon
I think the weavers' lineage was not notable in hallownest, we don't see anything in hallownest of the weavers being considered divine. and I don't think their creation by GMS would be very relevant in hallownest anyway
and also the weavers may not have emphasised their lineage very much to outsider bugs as they were running away from betraying GMS and were disillusioned by her 'lying'

[low oracle]

When going the Phantom route to the citadel, Sherma still survives. Hence the Last Judge definitely let Pilgrims pass, even if only rarely.

[whole holly]

they are ascended pharlids

[wintry compass]

oohhh trueee

[low oracle]

The Pale king ascended bugs too, the ones that became his followers. Even if they are infected now, they are as much followers made by him, as the moths were made by the Radiance.

[gentle aspen]

We don’t know

Like genuinely no clue

[wintry compass]

damn I can't decide whether it's worse to make past the last judge and then be taken down to the underworks
or make it into the citadel only to realise you're now on the run forever

[gentle aspen]

well the comment about common beast was from the mushrooms/mister mushroom

[rapid bloom]

Unrelated, but Red Dream quote 🗣️⚔️

[stray fog]

🔥 🔥

[wintry compass]

oh

hm

that's out of the window then

[gentle aspen]

it’s like, from the old “three queens” idea

[stray fog]

Yep

[low oracle]

I think the worst possible outcome would be to end up as "live" silk driven by rage. Silkfly seems pretty chill at least.

[wintry compass]

I guess the weavers could still be common citizens of hallownest if you interpret it that way

[wintry compass]

yeah being a lamp doesn't sound all that bad if I think about it

[gentle aspen]

they’re not citizens of hallownest tho

[low oracle]

Depends though, since they were almost completely isolated. Perhaps the Pale King knew their origin, since Wyrms seem to be at the top of higher beings creating civilisations.

[stray fog]

The deepnest ones

[terse warren]

I mean, the Citadel is sleeping because if it isn't sleeping then she is the one that's forced back to sleep, and I can't imagine she likes that

[low oracle]

GMS isn't really awake though until Hornet challenges her.

[terse warren]

"Divine power" haven't really seen Fayforn do much that's divine

[gentle aspen]

groggy type shi

[stray fog]

Awake enough to mind control everyone in the citadel

[terse warren]

She's certainly not asleep

And she can talk to Hornet through Silk Heart dialogue

[wintry compass]

true lmao

[terse warren]

[wintry compass]

also if she's made the citadel sleep, then what are the underworkers working on? cuz isn't the machinery in the underworks maintaining the automatic singers?

[wintry compass]

she said she would awaken soon in the silk heart dialogue after bell beast (I think)

[stray fog]

One to witness our waking

[wintry compass]

I think what that implies is that the spell that lulled her to sleep has stopped and she only has to awaken and that it is inevitable

[terse warren]

They're just following their 9-8 schedule

[whole holly]

Moths followed Pale King later on, Weavers also followed Fayforn, as they turned backs on GMS

[wintry compass]

I think the fact that she left the underworks and deep docks and greymoor running and that most of the infrastructure and toil continues shows that GMS kinda wasn't much better of a ruler than the weavers and conductors

either that or she didn't consider it important enough to change

[whole holly]

i guess, weaves though she was , she gleams at least and piques interest of Mr Mushroom

[stray fog]

She definitely doesn't care about the welfare of pilgrims, given that she started the haunting

[wintry compass]

yeah fair enough I guess you don't have to go that deep, lmfao

[terse warren]

That's not really the same thing and not really what happened

[terse warren]

She is already struggling with barely enough Silk, why would she need to waste more to make the workers do who knows what

[wintry compass]

I think fayforn isn't their new religion it's more their sidequest

[terse warren]

I'm pretty sure some dialogue outright says the workers are just following their instincts

[terse warren]

The Weavers' new religion is themselves

[whole holly]

they communed with it, it is ancient special being in some way

[wintry compass]

she doesn't have enough silk? that makes sense then that greymoor and underworks continues

[whole holly]

Fayforn is special in some way

[wintry compass]

yeah they definitely revered fayforn, but that doesn't mean they worshipped it

or that it was their religion

they held some respect for fayforn

[whole holly]

i didn't claim that

[terse warren]

Those are unrelated, her method to get more Silk is binding Weavers

[whole holly]

i mean they might have followed/revered it in some way

[terse warren]

They're too full of themselves for that

It was something useful that they communed with

[whole holly]

something useful for weavers gotta be Really special, they didn't even commune with Pale King

or something like building Mount Fay for it

[wintry compass]

hm that makes sense
but then given the reason the greymoor and underworkers are working is to collect silk to ultimately keep her asleep, wouldn't it be in her interest to stop all of that
also given she sends phantom to the exhaust organ, she saw these operations as relevant

[wintry compass]

perhaps it was distrust for pale beings? they were somewhat isolationist and didn't want to join hallownest

[terse warren]

It's not like they built the whole mountain

They built a research facility

[whole holly]

sure but they built everything overthere

[whole holly]

yeah, that's my point, exception for Fayforn generally and Mr Mushroom also communing with it is interesting, she does also Gleam way other higher beings do

[wintry compass]

yeah fayforn's probably a higher being I guess?

[stray fog]

Mr mushroom talking to her makes her special, but thats not enough to say that she's a higher being imo

[wintry compass]

also fayforn is a she?

[whole holly]

i meean maybe she is ancient special species like Wyrm or Sylphean Slug is?

[whole holly]

she is mother of driflim

[stray fog]

Shes the mother of the floating enemies in mt fay iirc

[stray fog]

Although this might just be a theory

[whole holly]

i mean there are no possible candidates and their mother gleams like Fayforn does when talking to Mr Mushroom

[wintry compass]

aha makes sense

[stray fog]

True

[low oracle]

Awake in the sense that she is active.
I have a theory that all silk is part of GMS and can be tracked back to her in some way.

Firstly, GMS is a pale being like the Pale King and White Lady. They are theorized to be capable of having unlimited soul, hence GMS makes unlimited silk. In the void however she seems to be slowly fading. This probably is the void absorbing her over time however, similar to the Radiance. Upon defeating Lost Lace she gives her silk for Hornet to escape, leaving only a Wraith-like thing behind.
That could be interpreted as:
-She didn't give her last silk, she gave her last power before the void consumed her.
-She gave her power of replenishing silk to Hornet/Lace, allowing for Lace to restore herself
-My theory is stupid

What makes this theory so logical to me however is the haunting and how it works. From Pavo we know that GMS's thoughts replace your own and that you enter a hivemind. The Unravelled in the Whiteward could be tortured parts of GMS that have united enough to gain sentience of sorts.
Lace and Phantom were created to have minds of their own and are definitely unaffected from the hivemind. They are like GMS, only with the exception of having their own free will.
That could also explain why the citadel wanted silk so desperately, they were manipulated to give GMS more power by strengthening her form (Phantom is weak because her lack of silk).

GMS could both be capable of creating unlimited silk and be incapable of doing so for this theory to work. She could also be referred to as a Pale Being because she literally consists of soul (silk is soul spun into a thread).

[wintry compass]

what's that command that pulls up an entry, can we get driflim's journal entry

[low oracle]

"Witness our waking" meaning she quite literally says she isn't awake.

[fresh badger]

Weavers believed themselves to be divine, gods, they even gaslit the pilgrims into like, believing in a pantheon of weavers (the effigies), I dont think they worshipped anything

[stray fog]

Do you have a screenshot of her glowing

[whole holly]

i mean no, but they revered her

[wintry compass]

she's still able to do stuff though, she's definitely not fully awake for sure though

[whole holly]

i don't but there is difference between different parts

[wintry compass]

I think whatever lulled her to sleep has stopped and she's started to awaken

but hasn't finished

and she wanted a daughter to witness that awakening that was inevitably coming, and that was when she kidnapped hornet

[twin dragon]

Lace's dialogue in act 3 and the cut ending proves this is false

[stray fog]

Isnt she described to be the primal source of all silk

[fresh badger]

Fayforn feels more Old Heart-y especially with the 'fell heart of frost' wording

[twin dragon]

She wanted the weavers to absorb their strength

[whole holly]

there is difference, they can't be lighting of environment

[low oracle]

Being asleep in Hollow Knight can mean many things. (regular) Dreams are the power of the Radiance, through which she can take over the minds of bugs. Physically GMS was asleep, she still thought however.

[stray fog]

!wiki fayforn

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Fayforn

Hollow Knight Wiki

Fayforn

The Fayforn is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong. She grants Hornet the Faydown Cloak.

Location

Mount Fay

Role

Miscellaneous

Affiliations

Weavers (Former companions)

Gender

Female

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Fayforn_Sing.ogg

[wintry compass]

this does make sense.

[whole holly]

fell heart of frost? did Fayforn freeze water source of Coral Gorge?

[stray fog]

Does act 3 apply a visual effect that messes with the brightness

[whole holly]

???? not really that we know of

[low oracle]

Idk, I think so. But my theory is that she isn't only the source, but has her will imprinted on all silk as well.

[fresh badger]

I remember theories that coral gorge's river was from snowmelt from Mt Fay

[whole holly]

where is that wording i would like source

[wintry compass]

but lace's cradle dialogue suggests she didn't just want the power, and also she seems to be in the process of awakening anyway
I think I agree with ccmaci's explanation that she originally wanted a daughter, but as hornet acted against GMS again and again decided she would bind her like every other weaver thus far

[fresh badger]

Mr mush tablet iirc one sec

[twin dragon]

Lace only thinks that gms wants another daughter

not necessarily true

[stray fog]

I think fayforn's glow is related to the rocks in brightvein
Because she's the "heart of frost"

[twin dragon]

Also doesn't really make sense in the narrative

[whole holly]

i meant Nightmare Heart is also heart, they don't have to be Old Heart though, that's not exclusive to Old Hearts

[normal imp]

EVERYONE

[wintry compass]

hmm that's fair

[normal imp]

IM BACK

[fresh badger]

We speak the wish of the Master Herald, he who signs an Age's end. Under chapel fallen to the monarch's might, Over camp collapsed to the black thread plight, Scorched field on edge, shells black and burned, Up towers spinning, near the surgeon spurned, Cage of one who raged against the silken lie, Fell heart of frost, who soars on high, Past cradle's peak, last test of fitness, That the age may pass, this shroom its witness.

[twin dragon]

as gms sees lace as perfect

[normal imp]

ITS ME

[twin dragon]

she brings pharloom down to try and save her

[low oracle]

I think it is confirmed that the citadel redirected the water going into the Coral Kingdom/Kingdom of the Karak, strategically drying them out. Mount fay existed at the time of the Weavers, so that shouldn't be possible really.

[whole holly]

thanks

[wintry compass]

true

[low oracle]

What is this from?

[whole holly]

where is it confirmed?

[twin dragon]

Chat could act 3 represent the reckless revolutionary act against an oppressive regime

[fresh badger]

Mr mushroom tablet above pale lake

[normal imp]

anyways would you rather live in city of tears post infection (never ends) or citadel underworks pre infection (never ends)

[whole holly]

i don't think Fayforn is old heart exclusively

[low oracle]

Thanks, must have missed it.

[stray fog]

That journal entry disproves this theory though

[swift needle]

literally just the orca from the godzilla king of the monsters movie

[swift needle]

mb mb

[twin dragon]

Hornet seemingly knew what she was doing but it went out of control really quickly due to the uncontrolable razor sharp liquid being used

[stray fog]

City

[twin dragon]

driving the kingdom into chaos and anarchy

[stray fog]

Underworks has always been horrible

The haunting doesn't change that

[swift needle]

me personally i would js kick emalitia out of her house and live there forever

[fresh badger]

Yeah I agree Coldshard is tied to Fayforn, especially since like people without warmth eventually get encased in it (Hornet death animation, memory crystal)

[twin dragon]

Makes it better tbf, you're mesmerized if you're haunted and are semi sentient at that point

work is less of a hassle

I mean lemm seems to be chill as fuck just like that

[low oracle]

Not sure actually, it was mentioned so often that I never really checked. However the blasted steps are pretty dry, contrary to the Coral Gorge in its prime (Khan fight). So it should be true, I just don't have the source right now. I also forgot what the coral tablets said.

[swift needle]

never ending toil is worse than living in a semi functioning city with better living conditions

[twin dragon]

Kinda confused why there are several npcs in hollow knight that just appear to not give a fuck about the infection

[normal imp]

I mean it depends on whats worse being mind controlled forever, be in pain and have a chance of being killed or live in underpaid conditions and forced to work till your death

[low oracle]

Which journal?

[swift needle]

tc said in an interview that the balsted steps are what remain of the coral gorge

[normal imp]

no as in like the infection has started

the infection is like there in the city like as in like how it is in the og hollow knight

[whole holly]

Silk eaters kinda prove that GMS isn't only source of Silk

[low oracle]

I've seen people say that the High Halls had the water directed to them, seen as they use pretty much in contrast to any other part of the citadel.

[swift needle]

oh ya with the fountains and spas

[low oracle]

Eating a silk eater doesn't give silk. It only gives silk when your cocoon is out. Or do you mean something else?

[low oracle]

And the rotting corpses

[whole holly]

but they are still silk related

[normal imp]

well mabye she reated silk eaters like mabye they were a weak experiment pre weaver creation

[twin dragon]

Ya but its not soul silk probably

[swift needle]

the guy in hk who gives us our shade when given rancid eggs says he'll enjoy this morsle and styx desribes silk eaters as morsels hmmm

[low oracle]

Yeah, I don't know. Team Cherry made the as a version of the rancid egg, I doubt we can find much lore. Otherwise it would be also implied that Hornet is immortal.

[normal imp]

how about you @whole holly either you live in city of tears in the middle of the nfection or underworks before the infection

[whole holly]

i think Silk Eaters are hatched from Fayforn's eggs and Silk Eater is larval stage , driflim is end stage and they will grow up to be like Fayforn?

[low oracle]

Morsels are little snacks I think. Lace says that Hornet is a morsel too (I really hope I remember correctly).

[swift needle]

writing anything now huh💔

[normal imp]

things do not change at all

[whole holly]

uhmm, both are equally bad, i would prefer plasmified wormways or city of tears

[whole holly]

i am just speculating, and having full, with all the effort

[low oracle]

What? If Fayhorn were more than a normal bug that definetely wouldn't work. And what does Fayhorn have to do with silk?

[normal imp]

if I had to choose I would choose city

[swift needle]

Son there is NOTHING in the game supporting this

[whole holly]

i am just having fun

[whole holly]

but crackpot theory lol

[wintry compass]

the high halls flooded after the haunting though
while the coral gorge would have been drained when GMS first established pharloom?

[swift needle]

🥀

[normal imp]

if I could change anything I would choose underworks like lead a rebbelion

[whole holly]

but i guess they are techically grubs : Grub that lives within and feeds upon Pharloom's lingering Silk, born with the ability to sense Silk over great distances.

[normal imp]

https://tenor.com/view/cccp-flag-wave-star-logo-gif-16196191

[low oracle]

City of Tears is eat or be eaten (cannibalism). Underworks is peak last stage capitalism. I would take the City of Tears.

[whole holly]

stop with that, high moral ground

[swift needle]

NO💔 😭

silk eaters are pharlooms rancid eggs

[whole holly]

yes

[swift needle]

an invasive species

[wintry compass]

lmfao real

[whole holly]

they are grubs

[swift needle]

what evidence do you have of this/

?

[normal imp]

WE WORKERS DESERVE HUMAN RIGHTS

[whole holly]

the description : Grub that lives within and feeds upon Pharloom's lingering Silk, born with the ability to sense Silk over great distances.

[wintry compass]

tbf it feels more like early stage capitalism. there's no real estate bubbles and speculation

[whole holly]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Silkeater

[wintry compass]

(right? or is there a bellhome market crash lore tablet I missed)

[swift needle]

ohhh mb mb i dint read the item description

[low oracle]

I think the Weavers drained coral gorge to make place for the citadel. Khan ruled "half of Pharloom", which might or might not be meant literally. They couldn't defeat the Karak, hence they pulled the dirty moves to get rid of them. The citadel only existed after Khan's defeat.

[normal imp]

to be honest I think the citadel is too fucked for any of us to figure the nitty gritty out

[whole holly]

Father of the Flame is closest to Socialist Rebellion in Pharloom, collective ritual with collective resources

[whole holly]

it is okay, i forgive you

[normal imp]

wow when the freest person in the world is a dead bug

[wintry compass]

hmmm how did GMS defeat them though? because khan was powerful before GMS herself?

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

[whole holly]

Burning* but yes, sad ritual to be free from haunting

[fresh badger]

Silkeaters make the silk cocoons in styx's nest or the cocoons where you find them

[whole holly]

you quite literally didn't know description, little grub

[low oracle]

There are the lower class, the middle class and the higher class though. Underworks/Deep Docks/Greymoor, Citadel/Citadel Soldier/Citadel Preacher, Weavers/Conducters (+highest Architects and Vaultkeepers).

[swift needle]

imagine if @whole holly is just mathew griffin in disguise and giving us all of the lore in secret😭

[whole holly]

why wouldn't i?

[swift needle]

ITS CONFIRMED💔

[normal imp]

omg just thought of something depressing

[fresh badger]

My future?

[whole holly]

what?

[low oracle]

I think that GMS didn't really care too much at that point in time. She was only focused on her daughters at that point.

[normal imp]

no not as much

[whole holly]

@swift needle is grub confirmed

[normal imp]

imagine if the citadel had get humanlike ai more advanced then in clockwork core imagine what they would do to the underworkers

[whole holly]

their future is way more depressing, wow life cycle of Silksong Lore master

[wintry compass]

@whole holly should then drop that hornet is void

[wintry compass]

fair I can see that

[whole holly]

She has Regrets when she dies but not substantial amount as knight does, Her regrets manifest inside cocoon but that's representative of hornet life cycle, she is also Dark Bug wrapped in Silk in one of the endings

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/aut-hornet-hollow-knight-gif-26271963

[normal imp]

Hornet native american confirmed

[whole holly]

Native Americans aren't Black, what?

[normal imp]

ok well then hornet african confirmed

[whole holly]

why is your name ballcruncher69.

[low oracle]

Maybe they absorb silk? They only exist in Pharloom currently, hence they possibly feed on the haunting. They also only exist near the citadel, don't they (apart from the ones Sty Breeds)?
Interestingly enough, they also get voided in Act 3 (Styx's nest), which only happens to "haunted" bugs. So they very much could just be relying on GMS's immense quantity of silk to exist, causing them to connect the same way as haunted bugs.

[low oracle]

That's not a name. That's a profession.

[narrow horizon]

i can't believe people still believe this

[fresh badger]

I guess the silkeaters could be like, harvesting dregs in the air

Since their thing is, well, eating silk

[wintry compass]

I don't just to be clear
(it was a joke)

LMAOO

[low oracle]

That is her skin colour. Weavers are black, just like Tiso.

[narrow horizon]

DW I COULD TELL YOU DIDN'T

[whole holly]

they do, they feed on lingering silk, in way they adapted to haunting

[wintry compass]

HK lore where no one can agree on anything except almost everyone agree that hornet is not void (except some dinguses)

[normal imp]

but yea im they got that type of ai they would probably like jam all the underworkers into those robots

[narrow horizon]

but so many other people still believe this 😭

[wintry compass]

oh thank god

[whole holly]

yeah, they just have white masks

[low oracle]

Hence my theory isn't disproven and GMS is still the only known source of silk.

[narrow horizon]

Not all africans are black..?

[fresh badger]

What about all the Deepnest spiders?

[low oracle]

The cope is actually insane.

[fresh badger]

Distant village is straight up made of silk balls

[normal imp]

OK hornet black african confirmed

[narrow horizon]

Hornet

[wintry compass]

I think silk as webs is not the same as silk as soul silk

[fresh badger]

Well yeah

Exactly

[normal imp]

do you think Grannymama Silk would have succeeded if the weave fly didnt land on the cage

[narrow horizon]

or she could 1. Just be black and 2. Have nothing to do with real world ethnicities, races, or countries

[normal imp]

dude are you stupid its a fucking joke

[low oracle]

Retcon. There are many webs found in deepnest, but that is purely aesthetic (how do you spell this?). Weavers are directly made from GMS, so they do not count as other sources of silk.

[narrow horizon]

[fresh badger]

Deepnest is explicitly a tribe that existed before the weavers came there

[wintry compass]

I think it's just that the silk they produce is just mundane spiderwebs, not silk coming from soul

[narrow horizon]

Aesthetic (it's weird)

[low oracle]

An most of them are really weird anyway, like the Stalking Devout, little Weaver, etc.

[low oracle]

Thanks.

[normal imp]

I swear like did you actually think I was serious

[twin dragon]

He's referring to soul silk

not regular spider silk

[fresh badger]

Wait funny diamond guy what even is your argument yeah 😭

[narrow horizon]

some people are weird and dumb 💔 you can never be too sure on the internet

[fresh badger]

Im a lil stinky stupid

[low oracle]

Good point, didn't even think of that. But yeah, there might also just be normal, boring silk.

[normal imp]

ok so you just self reported

[narrow horizon]

what?

[wintry compass]

when this channel can actually agree on 1 thing we will all achieve enlightenment

[normal imp]

nothing

[narrow horizon]

not possible

[normal imp]

we will anscend to nirvana

[low oracle]

We will ascend with Gorb!

[whole holly]

Weavers can produce silk too

[low oracle]

Weavers directly trace back to GMS.

I know it's probably /j

[whole holly]

their silk is their own

[normal imp]

ASCEND ASCEND

[narrow horizon]

[normal imp]

so yea guys again do you think GMS would have succeeded in absorbing Hornet if the weavefly didnt land on her cage

[low oracle]

Pharlids don't use silk. Only through GMS could Pharlids (now weavers) make their silk, hence they definitely don't make their "own" silk.

[whole holly]

they count as different sources, especially hornet who is sensed strong with silk

[low oracle]

Probably, would be pretty sad if not.

[twin dragon]

Cut ending

[fresh badger]

Dawg whats the argument pls 😭

[twin dragon]

I mean she can do that we know it

and hornet was extremely weak by that point

[whole holly]

there are other Spiders like nosk that make their own silk, but Hornet's Silk is def from Pale King having lot of Soul and Herrah being weaver

[low oracle]

Then why does Hornet need silk hearts to become stronger, which all display GMS's words?

[twin dragon]

Hornet can infuse her silk with soul due to her being weaver

[wintry compass]

hornet was also heavily weakened while coming to pharloom, no?

[narrow horizon]

Silk is a manifestation of soul, but they gain the ability to manifest their soul as silk from GMS

[normal imp]

well with hornets arsenal at that point and Grannymamas power she would probably be assimilated

[low oracle]

Nosk??? Come on. Also, silk is literally soul. Silk is soul spun into a thread.

[whole holly]

they are ascended by GMS ability, but it is still their own soul that is spun into silk

[narrow horizon]

Silk Hearts say they "allow Hornet to regain the ability to generate silk in her own shell"

[low oracle]

Nosk doesn't even use silk. He probably creates organic material to produce his masks without having to be a painter.

[whole holly]

yes and she has lot of soul due to her father being pale being as well, otherwise ability would have been watered down/less potent

[low oracle]

Yet they also are tied to GMS.

[twin dragon]

True

[narrow horizon]

I think they're referring to the web strands Nosks other prey were caught in (background of the arena)

[low oracle]

Yeah, that's prob just retcon like most of deepnest. Or just normal, non-soul, silk.

[whole holly]

even if it is not infused with Soul, it is still silk way we understand irl silk

[wintry compass]

I think it's the latter

[narrow horizon]

yeah

[wintry compass]

diamong person was arguing that GMS is the only source of soul silk

[low oracle]

I'm not saying that the soul is from GMS. I'm saying that GMS allows Weavers to create silk from soul, hence all (soul) silk ties back to her.

[narrow horizon]

◇ isn't saying ONLY GMS and her creations can create normal silk, he's specifically talkinf about the special soul-infused silk

[whole holly]

yeah but just because she ascended spiders and passed ability to them doesn't mean that Soul that weavers infuse isn't their own

[narrow horizon]

Normal pharlids can still make silk

[whole holly]

it wouldn't make sense if soul isn't somehow from GMS

[stray grove]

Hey Nika

[normal imp]

do you thinks theres like a progeniter higher being

[whole holly]

hey

[low oracle]

Really? I didn't see anything saying that.

[stray grove]

Not sure why you’d assume that

[wintry compass]

zote

[whole holly]

me neither

[narrow horizon]

I mean like normal silk

Like spider silk

[normal imp]

like a higher being that created higher beings

[low oracle]

GMS is a pale being, which are heavily speculated to make infinite soul.

[wintry compass]

[stray grove]

Infinite soul? What?

[normal imp]

I dont see why it cant happen it starts with an idea

[low oracle]

Possibly, I didn't see any of that either. I might have not payed attention though.

[wintry compass]

it's never explicitly stated anywhere that zote did not create the entire world and the pale king and GMS
checkmate, liberals

[whole holly]

Pale King is pale being that ascended normal bugs but that doesn't mean intelligent thoughts of bugs tie to Pale King

[low oracle]

Kingsoul, made from two Pale Beings, creates infinite soul.

[whole holly]

that doesn't mean every pale being has infinite soul though

[narrow horizon]

[low oracle]

No, but all thoughts of these bugs resulted from the Pale King. And they do tie to him, they become his followers.

[stray grove]

Kingsoul is also quite abstract

Not all of them and that’s besides the point

No idea what you’re trying to argue

[twin dragon]

WHAT is this argument about

[low oracle]

It doesn't necessarily. But what else defines a Pale Being if so?

[stray grove]

Higher being with an affinity for soul

[whole holly]

they are saying that Soul Silk weavers produce still somehow belongs to GMS or ties back to her

[stray grove]

Not infinite soul necessarily

[stray grove]

Weaver silk is their own lifeforce lol

[whole holly]

Higher Being that is Pale, usually having Pale Light

[low oracle]

No? It is soul from other bugs.

[stray grove]

No

Weaver silk is derived from their own life force, Hornet is able to use the soul of other bugs because she’s half Wyrm and has a pale shell

[whole holly]

yes, GMS simply gave them ability to tie Weaver Threads(Spider Biological Substance) to Soul, and result is Silk

[stray grove]

That’s not something every Weaver can do, Eva says so

[narrow horizon]

◇ is right i just think he's explaining it in a say you guys don't understand lol (idk how to explain it either)

[wintry compass]

I think the reason why GMS is able to take control of bugs through the haunting is not really that all silk is hers though
it's that it techically really is hers
cuz the conductors used the silk she spun in her cocoon to inject it into bugs to extend their lifespan and it ended up in the air everywhere and in bugs bloodstreams and even genetics, so that's why all she had to do was reach out to what was hers

[low oracle]

Play Silksong and behold Hornet needing to strike foes to replenish her silk.

[stray grove]

Can you read

Literally the very next message

Hornet is not a regular Weaver and her abilities are not reflective of theirs

[narrow horizon]

[whole holly]

Weaver Silk is from their own soul, GMS just game them the ability to produce it and tie soul to spider glads i guess

[stray grove]

The reason the weavers died out is because their silk was waning because they were literally using their own life energy to cast spells

[narrow horizon]

◇ is saying this, they only gained this ability from GMS, which is why it ties back to Her

[sinful nimbus]

good morning #sk-lore what is the topic ‼️

[whole holly]

but if that was explicitly true she would control lace, eva phantom, and haunting mechanism is different to how you describe it

[low oracle]

Yes. But you are saying Weavers use their life force to make silk, basically saying they die from their own attacks.

[narrow horizon]

you're banned from here

[ionic stump]

i thought it was more like gms hunting down their kin and alike and in the case of hallownest, the infection

[stray grove]

GMS altered their DNA and ascended them but to claim ALL Weaver silk goes back to GMS is bizarre because then the Weavers wouldn’t have free agency

[whole holly]

they are saying that Soul Silk weavers produce still somehow belongs to GMS or ties back to her

[sinful nimbus]

Hm?

[stray grove]

How would they even rebel against GMS

[low oracle]

Nothing confirms this

[wintry compass]

what I'm saying is more or less explicit in dialogue though it's not my theory

[low oracle]

Did you even play the game???

[wintry compass]

I don't remember the source however

maybe some caretaker dialogue maybe? idk

[stray grove]

Clearly the weavers were the ones in control of their own silk and not GMS

[sinful nimbus]

We know their silk wanes from Weavenest Murglin

[narrow horizon]

There's always a chance you swap to ragebait mode and start spewing insane shit 💔💔 it's like you have another personality stuck inside you

[stray grove]

Also the only Weaver still alive is the one unable to use her silk

[sinful nimbus]

Good morning to you too

[stray grove]

And Eva implies that using the Soul of other bugs is specifically a Hornet thing

[narrow horizon]

Good morning 😁

[twin dragon]

Can confirm

[stray grove]

I mean we already knew it was likely a pale shell thing since TK has similar abilities

[whole holly]

GMS literally spreads her silk threads to haunt bugs in scrapped ending and is also true in one of the endings, bugs injecting themselves may just have made it easier or is simply not exclusively related to GMS

[stray grove]

But Weavers can’t use the soul of other bugs > their silk is soul > their silk was waning > they were casting spells using their life energy

Only logical conclusion

[wintry compass]

I am stealing this

[low oracle]

Then why did the haunting start? GMS was sealed away, not in reach of any normal bugs like the Conductors. If the silk in the Whiteward came only from Weavers, it wouldn't have caused the haunting. UNLESS my theory is correct.

[stray grove]

That silk came from GMS

They were likely draining her of her silk

[narrow horizon]

If only you were there when it was said earlier 💔 i got to see the event live

[wintry compass]

yeah it made it easier for sure, but given bugs can still resist the haunting uit's not all powerful

[stray grove]

The weavers didn’t have that much silk to begin with

Not enough to fill all of Whiteward

[whole holly]

plus eva is made of silk, how is she independent in GMS can control every silk?

[low oracle]

Doesn't mean it is exclusive to Pale King's children though.

[stray grove]

Ok but Eva says it is

[low oracle]

Where?

[wintry compass]

it's definitely quite weak, but it gave her enough grip to take control of bugs even while asleep

[whole holly]

Citadel did extract it from other bugs

[stray grove]

And the Weavers’ silk was waning which wouldn’t make sense if they could just get more from other bugs

[wintry compass]

that is true

[whole holly]

or Lace or Phantom?

[wintry compass]

she probably lost control of them when giving them life perhaps

[whole holly]

also why does GMS resemble Grey Mourner, lol

[wintry compass]

given the parallels with the vessels, you cannot have life without its own will and voice

[low oracle]

The fucking Soul Master could extract soul from bugs, yet the Weavers couldn't??? Soul Master isn't even anything as special as the Weavers, he's just a normal bug. If he can do it, so can they. And they don't need silk either, they only need soul that they can spin into silk.

[whole holly]

but she wouldn't do that if she had control of silk, though, haunting is her active process

[low oracle]

Coincidence probably.

[stray grove]

Yes that worked out for SM

Worked really well

[low oracle]

The vessels are all dead (except for THL possibly).

[stray grove]

Injecting yourself with soul has no side effects whatsoever

None at all

SM clearly knew what he was doing

[narrow horizon]

It actually did until The Radiance infected him

[stray grove]

No it didn’t lmao they literally started melting

[narrow horizon]

It melted the brains of the weaker ones

[sinful nimbus]

Soul Master extracted it with machinery

And like King pointed out it didn't really do him any good

[wintry compass]

yeah this

[whole holly]

Weavers ability was possibly tied to their not just life force but life time

[stray grove]

It was also probably very inefficient

[low oracle]

Stop the weird distracting from my obvious factual argument. The Weavers didn't have the infection, so what does your point prove?

[narrow horizon]

But SM didn't suffer from it, or at least not anywhere as drastically

[stray grove]

The issue isn’t the infection

[low oracle]

Because of the infection specifically.

[stray grove]

It’s that injecting yourself with soul fucks up your body beyond repair and is not something any reasonable person would do

[whole holly]

there was multiple voices in his head from all the souls that weren't his own

[limpid magnet]

What kind lore are on

[stray grove]

The infection didn’t melt their bodies

[sinful nimbus]

Infection doesn't do that

[narrow horizon]

Yeah but he'll walk it off

[stray grove]

SM’s body is also bloated with soul

[whole holly]

it's also not reliable since GMS can sense soul silk and Weavers having more of it and being sense strong with it is why Hornet got captured

[whole holly]

also yes

[stray grove]

Being able to generate silk from soil directly may also not be a simple process

Hornet’s shell does it automatically

[whole holly]

"Head of the Soul Sanctum. Hoarded soul hoping to stave off Hallownest's affliction, but eventually became intoxicated by its power."

[stray grove]

That the Weavers could design a machine to make silk from external soul is baseless

[whole holly]

because of her Pale Wyrm physiology

[normal imp]

wait so what you guys debating now

[stray grove]

Yes

[narrow horizon]

Bulimia Nervosa is a serious mental and health issue that should be taken seriously 😿

[wintry compass]

I think I agree with that
I think my opinion is that while GMS doesn't have control of all silk, she gave the power to spin soul into silk to the weavers (who already had spider powers to spin normal silk) - this is related to focus perhaps? as focusing soul into a spell is something not many bugs have
and haunting could work only because of the conductor shenaigans, and also that since the silk in eva wasn't spun by her she couldn't take control of it. also since she let go of lace and phantom by giving them life and a will, she couldn't take control of them either
but ultimately she controls most silk and is perhaps the original creator of the power to spin soul into silk

this is my opinion

[stray grove]

GMS is the primal source of silk and is able to take control of silk derived from her own lifeforce which accounts for almost all of the silk in Pharloom

[wintry compass]

yeah I think that too

[low oracle]

Of course it is. Soul Master implies it in the in the most obvious way of not saying it outright. Unless you are willing to argue factually, don't argue with me at all.

[stray grove]

But Hornet, whose silk is her own, can’t be controlled, the same would likely be true of Weavers whose silk comes from their OWN lifeforce

[narrow horizon]

GMS actually caused the haunting by tricking Pharloom into investing in her Silk-Coin

[wintry compass]

and eva is not created from her own lifeforce, so she can't take control of her, nor what the weavers do

[whole holly]

She controls her silk, her own life force that she uses to haunt life how Radiance still relied on Her Light/Essence/Dream Powers

[wintry compass]

skongcoin

why do we not have a skong emote

[stray grove]

If she could control all the silk in the world remotely she also wouldn’t need to send choir bugs to hunt down weaver descendants for their silk

[whole holly]

Soul Master's Problems are mostly from Soul, including bloating which goes away when staggered as he let's out soul from his mouth

[stray grove]

Ok I won’t bother arguing with you

[whole holly]

yeah, she can only use her own silk and sense others

[low oracle]

To everyone that just recently entered the chat, this is probably what is mostly being argued. I've got to go now, though, bye.

[stray grove]

lol

[low oracle]

Thanks.

[whole holly]

his mind is also mess because of all the souls that aren't his

[wintry compass]

yeah SM doesn't seem exactly well adjusted

[stray grove]

Probably extensive soul use that exposed him to the infection in the first place

[whole holly]

but his problems aren't solely because of infection, as he is in earlier stages of infection

[stray grove]

Mind being a mess means Rad had an easier way in

[low oracle]

He soul in itsself wouldn't have led to him being infected though. And he couldn't achieve a pure focus either, since he isn't something like the weavers or vessels.

[whole holly]

i am not sure, maybe

[limpid summit]

SM says he could see Soul as an infection cure in his dreams, it was likely Rad sending out a lure like she did with Xero, allowing herself to be killed in his dream before infecting him and turning him against PK

[wintry compass]

didn't overdose on orange juice yet

[limpid summit]

But the soul he absorbed made him manic and likely more easily infected

[low oracle]

It's confirmed by the way that he got infected faster due to his experiments with soul.

[limpid summit]

Not the soul literally though

The fact that he gave into his desires + all the whispering he heard

[low oracle]

On one ear the Pale King on the other the Radiance

[whole holly]

i don't think Soul is helpful or harmful against, yes he affected his mind negatively but there were multiple voices/minds in him, and he is in earlier stages on infection, Soul's relation to Infection is inconclusive for me

[wintry compass]

at the least I think the relation is 'probably can't cure the infection'

[whole holly]

but Radiance told him to seek out soul

[whole holly]

yeah, me too

[low oracle]

The voices were probably from the souls of the bugs. Source: "Hear us scream" in the abyss shriek room.

[wintry compass]

people agreed in this channel
we have trascended

[whole holly]

i know yeah, that would have been Soul Imprints fighting for control

[eager flax]

if the radiance from HK is a god, do the citizens of pharloom know of its existance?

[wintry compass]

erased by the pale king

but

[whole holly]

that's better, reaching conclusion is helpful

[wintry compass]

memories linger

she was nearly forgotten

[whole holly]

Mothkin did, she was nearly forgotten

[eager flax]

i see

[wintry compass]

but she was able to take control of bugs through the infection when they unearthed the statue of the radiance in crystal peajk

[eager flax]

so the radiance is essentially a forgotten god, she has no power in pharloom?

[limpid summit]

The radiance’s range is Hallownest

She wasn’t able to infect anyone in Pharloom

[wintry compass]

no she doesn't really have power outside hallownest, probably never did

neither did the pale king

[limpid summit]

The only bugs who probably knew of Rad in Pharloom at any point were the Weavers that returned I guess

[eager flax]

makes sense

[limpid summit]

But we don’t know what happened to them

[wintry compass]

maybe we'll find out in zoteboat

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows better have musical aspects i swear to god, like Opera/RNB for Plasmium , because tragedy of Plasmification is insane but also it's blue as well

[wintry compass]

I just want the soundtrack to be realeased alonside the DLC

if we have to wait till all DLCs

I will cry

also why is memorium not part of the OST it's so sad

memorium soundtrack is so peak

[whole holly]

Radiance is definitely related to Jazz, Unn is folk music, Pale King is classical, White Lady is country, Nightmare is
Heavy Rock, Shade Lord is Heavy metal

i guess GMS is religions hymns and needolin related genre idk

[eager flax]

i wonder if it will take place in a new area of pharloom or a new place entiely, i havent finished the game yet but you can try and leave from the blasted steps and it gives u dialogue about how you're mission in pharloom or whatever isnt done. maybe after act 2 you can leave through the blasted steps via the DLC to a new location

[whole holly]

Pharloom Bay is most likely, which is near bilewater

[sinful nimbus]

would mr mushroom listen to doom metal

[whole holly]

idk, maybe

[wintry compass]

I think he would listen to silksong OST

[normal imp]

would mr mushroom eating mushrooms be cannibalism

[wintry compass]

I just thought, since the mushrooms are a hivemind, they must have the most amazing jam sessions

[whole holly]

they seem to be created by Mr Mushroom, or they are his followers i am not sure

but there is giant mushroom corpse that might be higher being, team cherry never elaborates on it

is Hornet part root after Binding Witch Crest? does that make her Wyrm and Root just like vessels

anyways Spider Strings and Warding Bell are really good designs in my opinion, for Musical theming, only things in game that really have it

[twin dragon]

Not true at all

[whole holly]

i disagree, especially warding bell

[twin dragon]

Talking about that last part

[whole holly]

i am not counting Needolin for Obvious reasons

[whole holly]

what do you think about this?

[twin dragon]

didnt mention warding bell

[whole holly]

wdym?

[twin dragon]

alr, you edited it

but you left out magma bell

[whole holly]

Magma Bell doesn't have musical theme, Warding Bell has hymn of protection

but musical abilities like Needolin, Sylphsong are not things/objects

[whole holly]

i only added word "really"

[twin dragon]

It kinda does have that similar halo like the warding bell

[whole holly]

yeah, but Hymn of Protection is only mentioned in Warding Bell description

maybe Magnetite Brooch as well: Holy stone inscribed with a prayer for rosaries.

Any loose beads will be pulled toward the wearer.

[whole holly]

do you think we will get Seasong is Sea of Sorrows DLC?

[twin dragon]

Possibly

can't know

[twin dragon]

We can assume it works similarly

[whole holly]

@twin dragon what do you think about this?

[twin dragon]

The parasite is part of her yes

But

grayroot isn't related to WL

so hornet is a symbiote

and she's not exactly biologically part root now she just has another being inside her

[whole holly]

ok, i guess you are right

i will try to get cursed ending in steel soul

[twin dragon]

i did js that

on my steel soul speedrun run

[whole holly]

to be honest, Twisted Child and Embrace the Void are most similar endings thematically they both involve death/annihilation of hornet's form and solve problem and Higher Beings cease to exist, but Another Form is achieved as end result: Shade Lord and Pale Parasite

[twin dragon]

I can see the parallels tbf

Though the outcomes of both might be different

as the shade lord is subject to tk's will

and the parasite is roided grayroot

[whole holly]

people assume Sister of the Void and Embrace the Void are most similar solely because they both include the void

[whole holly]

yea i guess you are right it that

[twin dragon]

Sotv is more akin to dnm

[whole holly]

i was thinking that too

least problems overall

[twin dragon]

However i'd say thematically they differ

and their outcomes are different aswell

[whole holly]

Parasite i think has Soul Imprints of GMS and Hornet, they sap Life Force of bugs and that would include Silk/Soul/Crests, somewhat like what Soul Master did

the Hollow Knight endings and Weaver Queen Endings are thematically same as they continue cycle

[twin dragon]

Weaver queen leaves us with certain ambiguity though

[whole holly]

Snared Silk and Sealed Siblings both have undesired outcomes

[twin dragon]

of what hornet would do with such power

[twin dragon]

Though snared silk can be fixed

And that's what hornet tries to do the entirety of the act

[whole holly]

yeah

Sealed Siblings can be interpreted as Better endings that hollow knight and i think things will eventually get better within that outcome as Knight is not as corruptible by Dreams with voidheart i think, since Void is unified under it's will, i am not sure about Voidhearts full implications though

[twin dragon]

TK has interacted with hornet enough to form an attachment

By that point

[whole holly]

yeah but for Knight i don't think they will be flawed like hollow knight because they have void heart

[twin dragon]

Not sure how that changes anything

[whole holly]

Snared Silk is like Dream No More and Sealed Siblings

[whole holly]

i am not sure, command Abyss to Dream Realm? i think?

[twin dragon]

Iirc the void commanded to fight the radiance is THK's inner void

[whole holly]

not really we see shades too

[twin dragon]

I don't know how else having void there is plausible

[twin dragon]

I'm wrong then

no clue

[heavy gyro]

Also TK needs to weaken the radiance with a nail

[twin dragon]

i forgor most of the lore

[heavy gyro]

Before the void can consume her

[twin dragon]

too bright

[whole holly]

thats true, but can't shades weaken her?

[heavy gyro]

If they could do that then there wouldn't be a radiance fight

[whole holly]

Void Heart implies his nature changed, he embraced void within

[heavy gyro]

iirc the radiance has that weird halo behind her that protects her or represents her strength

[whole holly]

that's not the case as that can be explained by knight not having void heart

[twin dragon]

This whole thing also implies that TK has a will

[heavy gyro]

The knight has voidheart during the radiance fight

[twin dragon]

unlike the other parts of the void

[whole holly]

maybe he becomes truly hollow one with void

[twin dragon]

No, as he has a will

[whole holly]

yeah, but lack of will was never the solution, it always boiled down to amount of Void vs potency of light

[whole holly]

sure but i don't think his will can be infected, he can't leak like THK because Void would travel and seep within Knight's mind like how Infection seeped out, that's just me imagining things but still

[heavy gyro]

Also TK becomes bound and likely can't use the void

[whole holly]

but it is true radiance does need to be weakened

[twin dragon]

Sealed siblings is also a worse outcome by the fact that there's a much better one within reach

This long of a journey to end up being part of the cycle

[whole holly]

why make different ending than hollow knight ending, only to point out that Knight and hornet have bonded? how does Void Heart facilitate that, i guess Kingdom's Edge cutscene but still, i would assume Knight being higher being and surpassing Pale King would amount to something as an effect

[heavy gyro]

Its just a side effect of hornet helping in the THK fight

[whole holly]

yeah, i guess

i just think that Void Higher Being should be able to contain Dream Higher Being successfully

i think that knight's mind becomes vast void as his will/mind unifies it, that's my interpretation though

[twin dragon]

Though the void will probably be warded off by radiance's light

the same way it behaves in the fight

[whole holly]

it think knight's will can negate that, but i am not sure, i don't think Radiance Light warding the Void is active process as she is made of light so, Void Unified can withstand it as seen in Embrace the Void ending, that was with Godseeker's Focus but Dream No More ending them i guess

[twin dragon]

That is after TK beats up the radiance doe

[stray grove]

Even in Embrace the Void, the Void which TK summons isn’t able to grab onto her until her aura gets dispelled

The sundial/halo behind her

[whole holly]

yeah but Radiace is always Light Being

[whole holly]

that is i guess true but it is weird to think that Knight acquiring void heart does not make substantive difference in containing Radiance

[stray grove]

Not in containing

It gives it the ability to kill her

[whole holly]

yeah, weird though

[stray grove]

I don’t think it’s that weird tbh

[twin dragon]

The moth is too bright

[stray grove]

Since the only attribute relevant to containing her is purity

Which VH doesn’t affect

[twin dragon]

At that point TK has some kind of attachment to hornet

winged nosk kinda confirms this

[stray grove]

Doesn’t matter, it was never pure

But yes Winged Nosk is one piece of evidence that supports that

[twin dragon]

Was it?

[stray grove]

Yes because purity isn’t something you can lose

[whole holly]

purity of thoughts, but not necessarily will, as every creature in existence has will, every life, even siblings and beings spun from silk

[stray grove]

The ability to form attachments is evidence of it never being there in the first place, WL says so

[twin dragon]

Is there a possibility of such being existing doe

[stray grove]

tbh Nika I don’t think the mind/will/voice PK is referring to are literal

[stray grove]

Not using the method PK followed

Whether or not it’s hypothetically possible through some other method is an irrelevant question

[twin dragon]

Pk aborted thousands without any real proof of it working as intended

and it did not, infact, work as intended

[stray grove]

He had proof

PK failed due to reasons outside of his control

[twin dragon]

of his method though

[stray grove]

There was literally no way for him to get conclusive evidence

His method was sound and based on extensive research of the Void

It didn’t work because he had no way to understand Void nature

And also because it was never going to work

It’s an impossible goal

He was just desperate

[whole holly]

i interpreted that Knight can prevent Light seeping out from his him, with void heart somehow, since will was never the factor i think knight's mind now is vast emptiness void heart says this : An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

[stray grove]

The emptiness is just Void

It’s not an absence of will

[whole holly]

yeah, Void does consume Essence and Soul

[stray grove]

Void Heart also says the Void is unified under the bearer’s will in the same description

Not a lack of thoughts or whatever

TK still thinks normally and retains its autonomy after VH

[whole holly]

but that emptiness being unconstrained seems to be unique to him, maybe he can limit essence, soul light and stuff

[stray grove]

I suppose we can’t know the true extent of VH’s capabilities

[twin dragon]

The extent was never stated in both games unfortunately

[stray grove]

It would be weird imo given the key to sealing Rad is said to be purity

It would also be weird narratively for Sealed Siblings to be a permanent solution when DNM is the clear “true ending”

[whole holly]

whatever that's not relevant to lore as we will never get confirmation, but it is pretty safe to say Void Heart doesn't do anything substantive that we know of, related to containing Void Heart

[twin dragon]

"Oh yeah the void is unified under tk's will"

wtv that means

[stray grove]

Yes

No evidence to suggest it

[twin dragon]

I'd say sealed siblings, even if it COULD be a functional alternative, is meant to convey dissapointment

[whole holly]

i am pretty sure that was wrong, as beings pure of thought and will won't exist

[stray grove]

But I think thematically it’s more appropriate for Sealed Siblings not to lead to a true resolution

[whole holly]

yeah, i guess, sad for knight and hornet

[stray grove]

Disappointment at the lack of a resolution yes

[twin dragon]

Yes, that's why the plan failed

[stray grove]

I agree

I don’t think it was possible

[twin dragon]

And the fact that the better outcome can be attained

[stray grove]

But whether or not it’s hypothetically possible is not relevant

Just that PK couldn’t have achieved it

No matter what

[whole holly]

light in knight's eyes caused by infection fades though

[whole holly]

in Sealed Siblings Ending, which is indication of Radiance fading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVbLNvcuzLg&t=31s

[stray grove]

Happens in The Hollow Knight ending too

[warm prawn]

Yes

[whole holly]

yeah, wait nevermind

[stray grove]

Also remember that even THK was able to contain Radiance for quite a long time

[whole holly]

maybe Knight will also do same? for short while, enough for her power to fade and be forgotten

[twin dragon]

Don't think that would happen

her influence runs rampant

[stray grove]

I don’t think she can be forgotten, because it didn’t work when THK did it and the Vessel she’s sealed in automatically gives her a place to exist

The forgetting thing is because Rad is a dream being

If nobody knows she exists she has no place to exist

Like a living idea

But so long as she’s present inside one mind, she can reach out to other minds which are all connected through the Dream expanse

[whole holly]

i meant at least enough to weaken her

[edgy nebula]

howd the radiance even get sealed? do we have any ideas

and before the sealing was she just running rampant in the crossroads or was she non-physical

[stray grove]

Aside from needing to be remembered to avoid “the only death that matters” the quality and quantity of those who remember Rad isn’t indicated to matter that much

[whole holly]

idk, Threefold Melody playing in Background/Inside of THK's mind

[stray grove]

THK/Sealed Siblings ending is just prolonging the stasis

TK will fail like THK did and the cycle starts again

Rad was able to infect the entire kingdom after surviving off a few moths

And later did the same from THK’s mind

[whole holly]

yea but meanwhile in statis Void can be unleashed on World

[stray grove]

Not sure

[whole holly]

there aren't moths this time, prolly moss prophet will be cause

[stray grove]

Not even needed

Just needs TK/THK to remember her

[edgy nebula]

wouldnt radiance still be able to live because people would know her from the infection?

[stray grove]

Once their will is broken she can spread her influence again

[stray grove]

Those people would die but Hallownest is a dead kingdom anyway

And Radiance doesn’t care

[edgy nebula]

fair

[stray grove]

She can infect even plants and single celled organisms

And wild animals

None of those are intelligent enough to remember her or to know what that means

They just see a light in their minds and get infected

[whole holly]

even Shadow Creepers

[stray grove]

Yes

So I don’t think sealing her can be considered a permanent solution (unless the vessel is pure, which TK isn’t)

[whole holly]

at most longer statis can be achieved, because Knight was outside hallownest and PK's beacon

[stray grove]

I don’t think it matters much, but maybe if TK post VH has more mental strength than its sibling it can hold out for longer yes

Doesn’t matter much

[whole holly]

whether or not Knight succeeds in holding radiance won't be addressed

[stray grove]

It will fail eventually, however long it takes isn’t our concern

[whole holly]

so yea it doesn't matter

[fresh badger]

Yknow, the whole 'being forgotten is death' thing is really bugging me.

I think even something forgotten can return if something enters that section of the dream realm. Like, the dream with the dream nail is referred to as a forgotten dream, but seer enters it. But she also says the dreamers sealed tk in it so tk will fade away? Which is weird

[gentle aspen]

probably because she saw it happen

if she didn’t witness it in her area I think tk was fucked

[stray grove]

What exactly is it you find weird

[gentle aspen]

Like if they tried that properly in greenpath

[fresh badger]

What a terrible fate they've visited upon you. To cast you away into this space between body and soul. Will you accept their judgement and fade slowly away?
Like this implies something forgotten will fade away (maybe bc fading from people's memories?

[stray grove]

Being forgotten isn’t literally death. Radiance exists in the minds of bugs, so when she’s forgotten she literally doesn’t have a place to exist. Probably ends up in a similar “forgotten dream” to the one the Dreamers chucked TK in

[whole holly]

most we can assume is that Lifeblood catches up and out competes Infection, Infection is no longer able to take root again

[stray grove]

I think they mean TK will gradually fade into Essence

[fresh badger]

Actually I wonder

Did Seer bridge TK out of the forgotten dream to the dream holding the dream nail?

Theres no way the dreamers sealed TK in the dream with the dream nail

Like Seer definitely had to have interfered there

[stray grove]

Seer went in after it and gave it the Dream nail so it could leave

[fresh badger]

You'r ethe second person this week saying Seer dropped the dream nail there 😭 I've never read it that way

[stray grove]

She saw the dreamers toss TK away so she could follow them to wherever they were going

[stray grove]

I mean same difference really but I’m not sure moths can move people other than themselves across dreams like that

[twin dragon]

So things in the dream realm can just dissolve like that?

[fresh badger]

Like this very much reads as a shrine made for the dream nail the dream nail was left at ages ago.

Not Seer dropping the dream nail on some random platform

[stray grove]

Otherwise the dream nail wouldn’t be needed

[gentle aspen]

Assumedly what happened to royal retainers

[twin dragon]

Is that a metaphor for things being forgotten?

[gentle aspen]

I mean guiding someone to a location where their sacred object is the same as giving it to them

[stray grove]

Who knows, Seer’s interference may have manifested like that the dream realm is an abstraction anyways

Doesn’t even necessarily have to be an actual location though I agree it probably is

[whole holly]

i think Forgotten Dream was once place of Mothkin Traditions hence Dream Nail, being forgotten along with everything and Seer simply guides TK to it and Dreamers only know that things in there are being forgotten

[stray grove]

That’s actually a cool idea

RG is moth territory so it being a moth dream would make sense, and as far as the dreamers know that dream is abandoned and forgotten

[whole holly]

i don't think Dreamers know what dream nail is and besides Seer and Mothkin can shape dreams so how it happened doesn't really matter

[stray grove]

I agree that it doesn’t really matter yeah

The only important point is that Seer interfered one way or another

[whole holly]

Seer probably shaped it

[stray grove]

Shaped it, guided it there, bridged it to another dream, same difference

[twin dragon]

Could the seer's dream avatar be a primordial shape of moths?

[stray grove]

The shrine of believers moth looks similar

[twin dragon]

The way they exist in the dream realm

[stray grove]

Their dream avatars are light beings, mini radiances

[twin dragon]

Oh well

Just asking shit to seemingly knowledgeable people

[whole holly]

but i also want another tribe that knows about dreams in Hollow Knight Universe, Soul and Soul Users are boring how can you use it again and again, with Pale Beings, Weavers, Snail Shamans, Soul Sanctum, Citadel of Song.

[whole holly]

Elegy of the Deep makes sense as Dream Realm exists between body and soul

[stray grove]

I agree Nika it’s not very interesting

Team Cherry seem to recycle a lot of old ideas

Silk and soul being functionally identical, Haunting being similar to infection, even Lifeblood being yet another infection

Moths are the only tribe with an affinity for magic that isn’t soul

Grimmkin if you count them but they’re all one entity

[twin dragon]

Imagine shakra's tribe has something to do with song

[whole holly]

i want Higher Beings that are as abstract as Radiance, more mythical and less industrial, maybe Plant Being that has powers like Unn, maybe something interesting

[whole holly]

i mean Mantra and things like that would be interesting

[twin dragon]

Also a "civilization" that is proficent in something, the citadel can be considered as such

[twin dragon]

The nightmare heart can fit this criteria i'd say

[whole holly]

maybe something unrelated to Void, Soul, Essence, mix it up

[twin dragon]

we have song

[whole holly]

i like them, they need it to be fleshed out

[twin dragon]

unfortunately mechanically it's not very abundant

[whole holly]

Flesh it out, but Songstresses aren't Higher Being, unless there is Higher Being that has beautiful voice and lures player in Sea of Sorrows, their manipulation would be interesting mechanic, i want Aquatic Mermaid like Higher Being with Song focus

[whole holly]

i have to agree

[twin dragon]

I'd say song not having a higher being is a good thing

It's not power that just comes from a god, it's something everyone can do in their own unique way

[whole holly]

i mean Song doesn't need a higher being but Special Being with affinity for Song would still be good thing, maybe it can be False God, in a way

with Song as lure and facade

[twin dragon]

Ig that's pretty cool

but smt close to this idea exists

I'd say karmelita

[whole holly]

yeah, she isn't expanded on though

[twin dragon]

She has enough lore i'd say

powerful mortal that has also an affinity for song

[whole holly]

i mean if Skarrsong was mechanic that completely messed with haunting and GMS it would be great

[twin dragon]

Though i'd imagine only karmelita would be capable of such

[whole holly]

Snare GMS so she can Dissolve into nothing but silk by Skarrsong

[twin dragon]

Also the haunting strings apparently react to song

I mean we know that since needolin is a thing

[whole holly]

i mean not really, it is songs that have unique properties not singers

traveling troupe(not grimm) based on Folk Songs would be great but Fleas don't really sing

[twin dragon]

Song is dependant on its singer though

[whole holly]

yea, but they can be passed down

[twin dragon]

shakra's tribe has potential tbf

Though i have hopes that they'd add some more stuff to the base game

with the dlc

[whole holly]

they are in Pharloom's Edges

[twin dragon]

just like they did with grimm troupe

[whole holly]

me too

[twin dragon]

Source?

[whole holly]

Needolin was passed down, Elegy of Deep, Sylphsong, Warding Bell, Beastling Call, hornet could have learned Skarrsong if game willed it

[twin dragon]

Mechanically how would skarrsong work

[whole holly]

unhaunt the Bugs of Pharloom that turn into npcs

[twin dragon]

Even then it probably wards off the haunting threads, not sure how it would react to someone who's already haunted

[twin dragon]

Most of them are corpses by now

except maybe pilgrims

I'd say skarrsong is more of a preventative measure, not a cure

[whole holly]

it would ward off GMS Silk and could have been incoprorated in Snared Silk endings, it uses needolin anyways, maybe dissolve GMS into Soul

[twin dragon]

Dissolving a god into soul

that doesn't sound very logical

and uh

i don't think skarrsong does

what you think it does

[whole holly]

oh, i guess, technically plasmium is a cure but causes other problems

[whole holly]

i mean Snare did that when we set that snare on GMS, didn't you see Soul leaking out?

[twin dragon]

That's uh

part of the soul snare

you can see gms dissolving in weaver queen

i'd assume it would look like that

[whole holly]

yeah, and Skarrsong could have disrupted her haunting somehow

[twin dragon]

Skarrsong wards off the haunting presumably, doesn't necessarily do anything more

Probably misguides the threads in some way

[whole holly]

okay, they it is just song of protection, not much else

[twin dragon]

Prevention

I mean we don't see much more

[whole holly]

but Song should be more unique, Warding Bell has great animation i want to see more of that, i want Memories to be actual dreams, maybe introduce Lullaby mechanic

[twin dragon]

maybe that's the extent of its abilities maybe it can do more

[twin dragon]

Song is the most unique element introduced so far

BUT we need more exposure of it

[whole holly]

maybe Sea of Sorrows can satisfy both lacking essence and song aspect of the game

[twin dragon]

Essence isn't needed imo

we see another way to access memory, no need to recycle and established system

[whole holly]

okay then Dreams that is connected to Lifeblood

[cosmic sandal]

im gona give that theory a theory

[whole holly]

i want Act 4 to be rebuilt and new content entirely

[craggy smelt]

Act 4 - Steel
Hornet is captured and brought to the City of Steel. She has to escape and burble hurble hrmbl-

[whole holly]

No no no, steel is interesting but I think it will end up being some kind of Citadel like imperial group, and some lame connection to void

[fierce elm]

what if after sorrow of sea, hornet gets curious of what she saw back in the abyss, goes to the abyss again to meet her brother (the knight) again?

or something like that, the basic idea is her getting curious by the abyss and getting back to it

[craggy smelt]

a connection to the Void that's lame? ridiculous...

[craggy smelt]

I do think we'll eventually get a DLC that addresses post Act 3, a true Act 4

as for more stuff with the Knight, well... I actually think City of Steel content might deal with that

the Steel Masters share some traits with Knight, something that reminds Jinn of them

there might be a confrontation between the two

[whole holly]

void became lame after act 3

[fierce elm]

hm

[whole holly]

she avoids abyss entirely

[craggy smelt]

wrong

overused, maybe

[fierce elm]

but she met her brother you never know how curious she might get

[whole holly]

Overused stuff becomes lame after it is used again

[whole holly]

maybe

i prefer more story about Everbloom/First Light more than Steel Masters that are Like knight i guess

i hope Paleseeker's are to pharloom and have lot of everbloom and seek pale beings, give hornet power to resist void and kill masters with her new powers

to end story once for all

[craggy smelt]

Paleseekers

[whole holly]

better than Steel Hearts

[craggy smelt]

given that the Steel Masters can apparently threaten even pale beings into obedience, I wouldn't be surprised if their city contains a lot of info about pale beings as well

[whole holly]

hornet is not pale being

she is pale bug

[craggy smelt]

I mean... she is, but that's besides the point
Zi refers to the higher caste(pale beings) as being vulnerable to compression and in particular need of obeying the Masters

[whole holly]

but we all know that Sea of Sorrows is about Lifeblood

[craggy smelt]

lifebloood

[whole holly]

higher most likely means higher sapience

[whole holly]

only ones bound to servitude by masters

[craggy smelt]

Doubtful - Mask Maker and Hornet both refer to pale beings as the 'higher caste', indicating something more than mortal bug. Zi recognizes Hornet as a pale being, and therefore of the 'higher caste' as well.
There's no reason for her to comment on those with mere sapience, something that would include mortal bugs, as being especially vulnerable or targeted to whatever 'Compression' entails, compared to everyone else

Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...
...Compression... We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another.

[loud birch]

I wonder how the "God home" in silksong dlc is gonna work

Anybody know what Seth's lore is? (Besides Seth Goldman)