sk-lore

[terse warren]

this implies they once did visit it

definitely more than once

[gentle aspen]

worf

[terse warren]

whar

[oak palm]

Not really

[terse warren]

"even to our family" implies their family especially visited it more than most idk what you mean

[oak palm]

Their family dabbles in void

It really doesn't seem to be implying they once went there

[terse warren]

???

but it literally does

that's what the dialogue is about

[oak palm]

Ik this game has a lot of retcons and inconsistencies but this seems like reaching too hard to find one

[oak palm]

You'd expect them to go there because they hyperfixate on void but they didn't

[terse warren]

the shaman in the first game literally doesn't even know what void is it's not a reach

[terse warren]

that makes no sense with the way the sentence is contrsucted

the sentence quite literally says "despite our family's fixation the abyss has been long unseen by us aswell"

[viscid ridge]

I still think there are some misunderstandings about the shamans, i dont think its a retcon, but im sure theres an interpretation of his dialogue that makes more sense

[oak palm]

Is that not what I'm saying

[terse warren]

there really isn't

[terse warren]

no???

[oak palm]

You expect them to have gone there but they didn't

[terse warren]

the dialogue literally says they did

not recently but they did

[oak palm]

Also there's already an earlier inconsistency where they expect.you to know the shamans were planning something with void which goes against the first game

[terse warren]

"long unseen" means they've seen it before

[oak palm]

But I fail to see how this is implying they went to the abyss

[oak palm]

They're talking about literally everyone ever

[terse warren]

it's like the most obvious out of all the retcons

[twin dragon]

exxageration

[terse warren]

but they aren't????

they literally say "our family"

[oak palm]

Shamans have a lot of weird knowledge and probably know the weavers went there

[twin dragon]

Nope, herrah being a weavers the one

[oak palm]

Even

Which means they're saying it's been unseen in general

[terse warren]

ok second most obvious you're right on this one

[oak palm]

That space remains long unseen, even to our family

This means they're saying the abyss has been unseen in general, to everyone

[twin dragon]

But imo that's a good retcon

[oak palm]

The comma there means they're speaking generally

[terse warren]

"long unseen" implies it has been seen before and "even to our family" implies their family especially saw it often but even they have stopped going there

[terse warren]

it literally doesn't

[oak palm]

Yes it does

Read it again

[terse warren]

i like both retcons too doesn't mean they're not retcons

[twin dragon]

Snail shamans don't have to be one big family doe

[twin dragon]

Im not saying it isnt

[torpid spade]

perhaps ancestral mound shaman wasn't the brightest of the bunch
I mean you get two void upgrades from shamans

[oak palm]

"That space has been long unseen, even to our family"
The comma being there means they're saying Nobody has seen the abyss in a while

[oak palm]

No that's explained

[terse warren]

yeah but if you couple this with all the previous evidence

[twin dragon]

The void upgrades are soul upgrades

the void is YOURS

[oak palm]

The void upgrades are the knights essence fusing with the spell

[terse warren]

that'd just be bad writing also there is dialogue for that

[oak palm]

You just get the power to do it from the shamans or something

[torpid spade]

the more you know

[terse warren]

yeah but it also explicitly says that their family has seen it before

not recently

but before

which goes directly against HK

[oak palm]

Literally, no?

[terse warren]

literally yes?????

[oak palm]

How tf did we jump to explicit this is insane

[twin dragon]

Snail shamans look like they would have to do something with the void but TC changed it at the last moment in HK

[oak palm]

This space has been long unseen to everyone, and we haven't seen it either

[twin dragon]

I have no evidence of that, but that's what it looks like to me

[terse warren]

"even our family hasn't seen it in a long time" is literally what it says

[oak palm]

If there was no comma that'd mean they're talking specifically about themselves

[terse warren]

you're literally cutting a part of the first sentence

[oak palm]

But the comma is there

[terse warren]

that's not how english works

[oak palm]

Literally is

[terse warren]

"That space below remains long unseen, (it remains long unseen) even to our families"

literally what the sentence is

"long unseen" implies there has been a time it was seen

which implies the shaman family has been there

[oak palm]

Yes they probably know the weavers went there

These guys have a lot of weird knowledge

They knew all about Khann and nyleth

[terse warren]

true but have you considered it's way cooler if they are

[viscid ridge]

Not really, the spell were the shaman comments on never being to the abyss comes from the howling wraiths, the only void spell that doesn't come from the shamans. And seeing how we can see in both games that void can be summoned, its not a stretch that they should have been physically to the abyss to k ow what void is.

This keeps in line with the interpretation that snails are jack of all trades, because we see them partake in every major magic in the world (soul, silk, dreams, void, flickering flame and such).

Or atleast thats my interpretation, but i feel it makes sense unless yall have your own interpretation?

[oak palm]

If they were talking about specifically themselves I'm pretty sure that would be a straight up incorrect use of a comma

[terse warren]

no?

the comma is used for emphasis in this case

[oak palm]

It also lines up with what they say before

They literally say you'd be the first one to dive in a while

[terse warren]

well the guy also explicitly says about Shade Soul that "hey that's some of your power there none of our shit"

[oak palm]

Therefore the abyss is long unseen to everyone

[terse warren]

and no one is going against that???

[viscid ridge]

Like shamans are kinda like wizards, while the knight and hornet are like sorcerers

[terse warren]

but you're denying that the Shamans ever went there

which the sentence literally says is not the case

because they did go there they say so in that dialogue

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but is he wrong though😅

[terse warren]

we kinda really don't see them dabble in half of these

[twin dragon]

TRUE!, though how the hell would they communicate

[terse warren]

nomads idk

[twin dragon]

shit i rlly need to get some sleep

[terse warren]

they have houses on their back i dont think traveling is an issue

[twin dragon]

my boy the caretaker is NOT fitting inside of that measly shell

[terse warren]

also the HK one didn't know his family was dead so i doubt comunication is thast important lol

[oak palm]

They literally do not explicitly say that

[twin dragon]

yeah see that's the issue

[terse warren]

but they literally do

[oak palm]

They're saying yeah nobody has seen this in a while us included

[twin dragon]

their sorry asses can't even communicate being in the same kingdom

[terse warren]

and you're saying that it means they never saw it ever

[viscid ridge]

The one u could make that for dreams, considering the only evidence is that the shaman is aware when you dreamnail him, but i think the rest is pretty much shown

[oak palm]

If they were talking specifically about themselves the comma wouldn't be there I am like 98% sure

[oak palm]

I'm saying that sentence at least doesn't confirm anything

[terse warren]

but it does

[oak palm]

No???

They're not specifically talking about themselves

[terse warren]

they can't have not seen it in a while if they never saw it ever

[oak palm]

They're talking about everyone and then say we haven't seen it either

[oak palm]

The point is Nobody has seen it in a while

[terse warren]

they haven't seen it IN A WHILE either

[torpid spade]

They could be talking of their ancestors. There's a long line of Shamans in Pharloom, which can be seen with the Crest binding animation where all those eyes pop out

[terse warren]

you're removing the "in a while" for literally no reason

[terse warren]

yes that's what im saying

their family

which is what the dialogue says

[oak palm]

I'm trying to say the sentence doesn't confirm anything
You are making it out to be the sentence explicitly confirms that they went there when all it really boils down to is "Nobody has seen the abyss in a while and we are included"

It doesn't tell you whether or not they ever saw it or haven't seen it in a while

[terse warren]

it literally confirms that the shaman family went down there

be it them or their ancestors

[terse warren]

it literally does

[oak palm]

I'm still so confused how tf we jumped to confirmation this all started with that this was an implication

It doesn't confirm anything

[terse warren]

you cant not have seen something in a while if you never saw it to begin with

[oak palm]

It just says that they NOBODY has seen it in a while

And that they are included in this

[oak palm]

Point is, nobody has seen it in a while

[terse warren]

which means they have seen it before 😭

[oak palm]

They aren't talking about themselves specifically

It's up to you if you want to think their ancestors went down there but that sentence is not confirming shit

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/sisyphus-rock-mp4-transparent-color-gif-11114772717737196968

[terse warren]

it literally does it's literally how english works

[terse warren]

actually made me laugh i needed ts

[oak palm]

Literally not

The comma wouldn't be there if they were specifically talking about themselves only

[dire lynx]

the initial context of the dialogue is talking about the diving bell, which was probably used by the weavers or some other member of the citadel caste to descend. it does not explicitly deny or confirm the presence of snail shamans in the abyss.

[torpid spade]

ouroboros conversation

[terse warren]

the sentence itself literally says "no one has visit the abyss in a while, us included"

[oak palm]

SO HOW IS THIS confirming shit

[terse warren]

it clearly means that their family visited before

[oak palm]

NO????

How

[terse warren]

you can't "not visit something in a while" if you never visited it in the first place

[oak palm]

They're saying NOBODY has visited it in a while

And you're the first one to do it

[terse warren]

they say "even to our family it has been long unseen"

which literally says that it has been seen before to their family

[oak palm]

Is this implying hornet went to pharloom's abyss before? Even if it was the abyss general i don't think she ever told them she did

[oak palm]

No they're saying

It is unseen to everyone for a while, including us

[terse warren]

me when i change the words

[oak palm]

How

[dire lynx]

"You'd be the first in an age to dive so deep, Old One. That space below remains long unseen, even to our family."

This doesnt prove the snails were there, it can easily be interpreted as clarification that even though their family have an interest in the void, they havent been there

[oak palm]

This is LITERALLY what i've been trying to say the whole time

[viscid ridge]

But to be fair thats literally what it means

[oak palm]

This convo even started with that this was just an implication but somehow mid way through we jumped to it being explicit

[terse warren]

but it really can't

[oak palm]

How

[dire lynx]

it clearly can

and has

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/derpy-ouroboros-ouroboros-snake-tail-snake-gif-10572710539427286483

[terse warren]

"That space below remains long unseen, even to our family." "The space below remains long unseen, it remains long unseen to our family as well."

it can't be long unseen to their family if they never went there

[oak palm]

They're saying it's long unseen to literally everyone ever

[oak palm]

And then saying that includes us

[terse warren]

just because something has been interpreted in a way it does not mean it's a correct interpretation

[dire lynx]

its not just referring to their family, its talking about the general presence of bugs in the abyss

[oak palm]

It can be seen as implication to whatever you want but it is not explicit or confirming anything

[terse warren]

"i will piss everyone off and not contribute to the conversation"

[oak palm]

YES

[terse warren]

but it is also referring to their family

because that's how grammar works

[terse warren]

this is literally how implication in text works

[viscid ridge]

Yeah cause of what ive seen the only reason this conversation is still going is because your either being stupid on purpose or just ignore it every time someone corrects you 🤣

[dire lynx]

again.

[terse warren]

but it really can't

[oak palm]

hOW

[torpid spade]

I mean what youre arguing is also an interpretation and the only thing that can really prove which is correct would be english grammar and syntax rules so I think the best way to start is to cite those as proof by looking them up

[oak palm]

"But it really can't" Because?

[terse warren]

i've provided my evidence literally based on grammar, the only evidence that has been provided against my claim is "actually nuh uh you can also do this because i did"

[terse warren]

i literally provided the grammatical evidence ten times

[ember river]

Could be long unseen if they knew of its existence but had no means to reach it, but that's a considerable stretch

[oak palm]

Yes i've also been arguing on the basis of grammar

[terse warren]

well that's not really seeing it now is it

[oak palm]

If they were talking about just their own family that comma would be completely unecessary

[terse warren]

they're talking about everyone including their family

[dire lynx]

its long unseen to all, the dialogue isnt referring to just shamans

[oak palm]

Yes

[terse warren]

and also implying that their family has seen it

[ember river]

Ah

[oak palm]

What you're saying is not how english works

[terse warren]

it literally is

[oak palm]

Im prtety sure by your logic you'd be saying everyone who hasn't been to the abyss actually has been there before

[terse warren]

???

no???

[oak palm]

Like in recent times

"Nobody has been here for a while including us"

The thing that hasn't been there For a while is Everybody

Nobody has been there in Recent times

[terse warren]

no, it's anybody

[ember river]

The "even to our family" part does imply that the snails have more insight/capabilities or are expected to have been closer to the Abyss than most

[oak palm]

Yes because they dabble in void

[terse warren]

because the dialogue clearly says somebody has been there before

[oak palm]

But we see them doing it by summoning it to their own location

[terse warren]

and then implies that their family especially have been there

[ember river]

If anything, the pharloom ones do

[ember river]

They don't summon it, they use a machine built by weavers to do so

To conjure void is beyond their capabilities

We know that since the first game

[oak palm]

Weavers

[terse warren]

they needed soul that they stored up for generations and the snare setter to do it ^

[oak palm]

These shamans knew about khann and nyleth and i would imagine they also knew the weavers went there

[terse warren]

yes, and them

[oak palm]

And karmelita

[terse warren]

"even to our family" implies their family especially has been there

[ember river]

Yep, it was essentially opening a portal to the abyss, not really conjuring void

[oak palm]

They have a lot of knowledge

[terse warren]

without essentially

[twin dragon]

The spells is their technically, the snare has seemingly nothing to do

[viscid ridge]

You guys also have to take in acount, maybe the shaman isn't refering to the entire abyss, but the specific place where the wraiths is obtained.

[terse warren]

why would that be sercret knowledge

[oak palm]

It could also easily be read as "this is surprising because we dabble in void" but this is just a matter of reading it as you want
Either way i hope we can agree now that nothing EXPLICIT is being stated

[ember river]

The spell has also something to bind GMS but yeah

The spell was just a portal

[terse warren]

that dialogue isn't even oimportant anymore but that'd be ass writing

[ember river]

Or in retrospect, the binding is probably the snare

[viscid ridge]

Yeah to someone like you maybe

[ember river]

Except shamans don't really dabble in void all that much

[terse warren]

it's kinda implied as the one possible takeaway

[oak palm]

Not really???

[torpid spade]

shamans when they didnt visit the room 5 steps to the west
I dont think the hallownest shamans factor at all into this

[terse warren]

why would the guy know about the one specific room?

[ember river]

ESPECIALLY not if they haven't travelled to the abyss?

[ember river]

There are probably different families in each cave

[oak palm]

There's actually an earlier inconsistency in this game where the caretaker expects hornet to not have been surprised and that their family is fixated on void

[loud birch]

why do the shamans like die after you visit red memory?

[terse warren]

i mean the silksong ones do

[oak palm]

Which doesnt line up with the first game

[terse warren]

used all their soul for the spell

[oak palm]

Where the guy doesnt know shit about it

[dire lynx]

to correct this its that they have an interest in void. they dont dabble in it

[oak palm]

But yeah pharloom's snail shaman family is explicitly fixated on the void

[sinful nimbus]

HELLO wonderful people of #sk-lore !!!... what's the topic to discuss today??

[viscid ridge]

I agree it could be made more clear, but i think personally this is the interpretation i am going with

[oak palm]

Hm yeah

[loud birch]

so they made the world turn to shit, and sacrifice? Arent Shamans supposed to be like smart?

[ember river]

My first take was that they saw void as another potential source of power and their fixation was with power itself but that's probably a stretch

[sinful nimbus]

The plan only failed because Lace messed it up

[viscid ridge]

Exactly

[terse warren]

"That space below remains long unseen, even to our family." line from Caretaker implies that the Shamans' family has been to the Abyss in the past is my opinion

[somber smelt]

How would we know that abyss shriek wasn’t further modified by the vessel being a creature of the abyss.

[loud birch]

mkmk

[ember river]

The plan would have worked if Lace didn't interfere or Hornet expected that

[dire lynx]

the meaning of this dialogue

"You'd be the first in an age to dive so deep, Old One. That space below remains long unseen, even to our family."

[torpid spade]

sisyphus pushing a rock which is shaman family visiting pharloom abyss (our only source is a single line which two people are fighting over their interpretations)

[ember river]

Even if they haven't gone there, that line implies they have at least seen it at some point and that it should come as no surprise

[sinful nimbus]

"No one has been there for a long time not even us"

If this is about retcons then the retcon is that all shamans are interested in void unlike the ones in the first game

[terse warren]

"not even us" implies that they especially went there a lot

[oak palm]

Hey bludr all im trying to say is nothing explicit is being stated

[sinful nimbus]

Or that they're interested in the abyss

Which is a source for their power

[terse warren]

how can they have seen it if they never went there?

[ember river]

Information

[sinful nimbus]

They've never seen it though

[terse warren]

but that line literally says they did

[dire lynx]

THEY ARENT REFERRING TO JUST THEMSELVES IN THAT DIALOGUE

[ember river]

They could have learned about it from elsewhere

[terse warren]

everyone including themselves

[sinful nimbus]

That said go all in on Ancient Civilization descendant theory

[terse warren]

especially themselves

[terse warren]

get out

[viscid ridge]

Are we really gonna do this again 💀

[ember river]

Yes

[crystal marsh]

what

[oak palm]

Im crine bro

[terse warren]

me when im in a having a civilized discussion without shouting at each other competition and my opponent is #sk-lore (it's an easy win)

[dire lynx]

you are being intentionally dense at this point

[terse warren]

im really not

[oak palm]

If you repeat like the same thing while ignoring everything people say to it just maybe Maybe people will get frustrated

[terse warren]

damn almost as if that's also what you've been doing

[dire lynx]

hay and i arent even in disagreement that the shamans may have been to the abyss, we just dont agree that its a definitive "yes they have"

[terse warren]

we've been arguing the same way don't try to Ad Hominem me

[sinful nimbus]

Life once you stop caring at all what others say in #sk-lore 🐬 🌈

[oak palm]

Literally

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway blah blah k eep the discussion civil

[oak palm]

Im just trying to say nothing explicit is being stated here and then it comes down to interpretation

[ember river]

Lore channel lore vs lore channel gameplay

[sinful nimbus]

Lore channel lore is just racism

[terse warren]

one interpretation is clearly more obviously intended

[terse warren]

Hornet reference

[fresh badger]

Can we talk instead about how Skynx is a corpse creeper from deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

🤨

[torpid spade]

continue

[sinful nimbus]

This is a disgrace

[viscid ridge]

Honestly one thing i find more puzzeling that the shamans and void, is why is greymoor completely covered in rags, whats the purpose of doing that, and where did they get enough rags to cover the absolutely humongous cavern that greymoor is in??

[sinful nimbus]

Leave

[terse warren]

it also doesn't really make general sense to assume that Shamans never went to the Abyss because why wouldn't they have but i didn't say that because it has no actual evidenec

[fresh badger]

Uh corpse creepers run around carrying the host upside down

[twin dragon]

Wym by rags

[terse warren]

look who's talking 🥀

[ember river]

Corpse creepers are predatory parasites with four legs

[sinful nimbus]

Look

We can set aside our differences to fight against the common enemy

[terse warren]

lore channel lore is the great retcon wars and the gameplay is half the time it's people sending shitposts

[torpid spade]

silk pollution
the water falling from the sky (bilelands) is filled with trace amounts of silk that they collect to send back to the citadel

[gentle aspen]

who’s the common enemy?

[sinful nimbus]

Skynx corpse creeper

[terse warren]

people who believe GMS is evil

[viscid ridge]

Like the entire floor, walls and ceiling is enclosed by rags or cloth or something.

[gentle aspen]

Blocked

[terse warren]

we all know girliepops did nothing wrong

[twin dragon]

Ah, before the moors were farmers

[terse warren]

you're just afraid of facing the truth

[dire lynx]

GMS>>>>>bum ass weavers

[twin dragon]

idfk what my point was there tbf

[terse warren]

RAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

[sinful nimbus]

GMS defenders are all slaves

[fresh badger]

Skynx be creepin my corpse

[sinful nimbus]

And nuisances

Begone

[terse warren]

[twin dragon]

but it could've been to isolate moisture from the water that pours from above

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but what does that have to do with the cloth all over the cave?

[terse warren]

this is like the christmas truce of WW2

[terse warren]

that's racist

[oak palm]

Are we serious twintavious

[terse warren]

WAIT

[twin dragon]

Widow ass mindset

[torpid spade]

is this you

[terse warren]

#sk-lore message omg star was right

[fresh badger]

Tfym, Widow is the most simp-y of GMS slaves

[sinful nimbus]

Its not racist if everyone is a slave

[oak palm]

Lowkey i hate bell hermit but im starting to accept maybe has aura. caretaker still ontop however

[torpid spade]

oooh
im trying to think where
crawlake area? cuz most of graymoor is made of wisp thicket bamboo

[sinful nimbus]

Why do you hate my goat

[ember river]

It was ww1

[oak palm]

He's an asshole

[dire lynx]

one of the few W weavers

[sinful nimbus]

He spits straight facts and forshadows Weaver Queen

[terse warren]

damn

[oak palm]

And doesnt do allat much

[sinful nimbus]

That's deserved to someone like Hornet

[oak palm]

Maybe, she is racist

[fresh badger]

This shit frying me 🔥

[twin dragon]

Whoever defends gms i mean

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i can understand the bamboo being used to build structures and stuff, but i can genuinely not understand what the purpose of the cloth is

[twin dragon]

.

[terse warren]

they call her 007

0 slaves
0 times betraying her benevolent mother
7 strings to play the harp with

[dire lynx]

bell hermit is the goat frfr

[torpid spade]

I might be blind i have no idea what cloth youre talking about other than the stuff the craws shit out

[terse warren]

that'd be silk

[viscid ridge]

Ill get pictures

[twin dragon]

Silk mixed with water

[ember river]

Technically Widow is not a slave, but a willing serf

They put silk in the water

[terse warren]

they're turning the fucking pilgrims haunted

[sinful nimbus]

She slaves others

She is also a slave to GMS

[terse warren]

nuh uh she just imprisons them

[sinful nimbus]

She makes them slaves to GMS

[terse warren]

she willingly obeys she not a slave she a lackey

[ember river]

Or just kills them lol

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone in Pharloom is slave and slaver

[torpid spade]

Widow is far too intelligent to be Haunted

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/this-post-has-been-fact-checked-bingus-this-post-has-been-fact-checked-by-real-this-post-this-post-has-been-gif-10470348754235095981

[terse warren]

they can't move so they're must prisoners

[terse warren]

what did Team Cherry mean by this

[sinful nimbus]

You're a slave and a nuisance

Begone

[ember river]

Don't overthrow your mom and put her in a cradle

It'll mess up the power relations

[sinful nimbus]

The message is oppression bad actually

And the most oppressed group of all is the upper class. It is yoke, not crown.

[stray fog]

The kingdom is so shitty that everyone is oppressed

[ember river]

Who will ever think of the billionaires?

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry ❤️‍🩹

[twin dragon]

i can guarantee you NO ONE suffers like the minimum wage

[sinful nimbus]

Lil Bomey was on X not bluesky 🤔

[terse warren]

who me?

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone

[terse warren]

[sinful nimbus]

Including you yes

[torpid spade]

wait I checked it myself and I see what you mean
its like in the background of the Bellway station, yeah?

[stray fog]

I had a stomach ache last week
That was clearly worse than whatever minimum wage workers go through 😔😔

[ember river]

People with no wage who live on the streets

[twin dragon]

Not in pharloom

[ember river]

Then uh

[terse warren]

#sk-lore message trying so hard to dodge the allegations

[ember river]

That green prince who had his soul split in half and placed forever inside a mockery of his body

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a race thing

[twin dragon]

Uhh??

[sinful nimbus]

Its a your a slave no matter what thing

[terse warren]

mods with their finger on the ban button trust

[twin dragon]

womp womp

[terse warren]

wardenflies

[ember river]

Should have been smart and be made the 13th architect instead

[oak palm]

Everyone haunted is probably intelligent to an extent

But i dont think widow is haunted idk

[twin dragon]

mfs when a kingdom made to enslave the slaver by the enslaved, who then become slavers is full of slavery

[sinful nimbus]

ok I have a game can you fr name a guy who isn't a slave to GMS in some way

[oak palm]

Haunted is like they attack on sight

[twin dragon]

old hearts rulers

[terse warren]

Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Slaves

GMS bound them beneath her

[sinful nimbus]

Slave, Weaver Queen ending

[terse warren]

Bell Hermit

[twin dragon]

nah they fought

khann did seemingly

at least

[stray fog]

Chapel maiden

[sinful nimbus]

Bell Hermit is a slave, he says as much

All shamans are slaves

[twin dragon]

the air

[oak palm]

Is grindle a slave he doesnt give a shit about anything

[ember river]

Wait, this is actually interesting, does any silkfly work for any machine or does the personality need to be something specific (sentinel, architects, etc)?

[terse warren]

surface bugs

[sinful nimbus]

Sylphean Slugs are probably slaves to GMS in some manner

[stray fog]

Chapel maiden just stands in an old building all day
She isn't doing any slavery

[torpid spade]

to an extent but like its still a pale mockery
they do what they did in life without purpose or reason. I mean the Choral Chambers guys keep singing even after the Haunting ripped through that place like a zombie invasion
Widow has enough will and intelligence to speak with Hornet instead of immediately attacking which makes me think she isn't haunted

[ember river]

They were lured in by the weavers

[stray fog]

Fayforn

[sinful nimbus]

Skrills don't exist

[terse warren]

i mean the ones on the surface rn

[twin dragon]

Not air slugs, air

illiterate

[ember river]

Oh true

[oak palm]

I mean like their needolin dialogue implies their thoughts are there

But like subjugated to gms

[torpid spade]

This is true
the best evidence would be seeing if Widow has that string cut animation play when she dies i think

[ember river]

Those who aren't straight up slaves are victims of GMS's rule or the attempt to defy it

Like the pinstresses or the stilkin

[torpid spade]

Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Stilkin are slaves to power

Idk how to fit Fayforn into it but her kids are all slaves too

[ember river]

Hornet is trapped in Pharloom, she says as much herself

[sinful nimbus]

Weaver Queen

[ember river]

Cursed by her legacy

[terse warren]

notice how star didn't reply to my surface bugs

[sinful nimbus]

I did

Skrills don't exist

[ember river]

I did

Too

[stray fog]

Mr mushroom

[terse warren]

i meant the other ones gas

[ember river]

Ah

Those are slaves to their instincts

[stray fog]

Is everything slavery now

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[torpid spade]

Shadow Creepers, Shadow Chargers, Gloomsacs, Gargant Glooms

[sinful nimbus]

There's an NPC that says everything is a slave

[stray fog]

Im a slave to oxygen because I die without it

[ember river]

In a way it is

[sinful nimbus]

I'd prefer we don't acknowledge the voids existence

[dire lynx]

the knight

[sinful nimbus]

TK ain't in Silksong

[ember river]

But being serious bringing non-sentient bugs into this kinda defeats the point

[sinful nimbus]

It was a slave to Rad though in a sense

[torpid spade]

Lost Lace is a slave of the void, not GMS

[sinful nimbus]

Many of those are haunted and therefore slaves too

[ember river]

Lace was created as a perfect, obedient servant for GMS

[dire lynx]

SotV ending

[stray fog]

What about mr mushroom

[sinful nimbus]

I'd prefer we don't acknowledge the voids existence

[torpid spade]

Ballow and Forge Daughter
they seem to work for the love of the game

[terse warren]

not a servant a child

[somber smelt]

Slave to the grind

[terse warren]

Survivors of the Void 🔥🔥🔥

[sinful nimbus]

Children are servants to GMS

[dire lynx]

they work for the citadel

[ember river]

Yeah, but even the surface ones that are presumably clean shouldn't even count

[torpid spade]

Grindle

Loddie and associate

[sinful nimbus]

What if Gargant Glooms detained you until the end of time.... time... force that could deny time. VOID, harness shall be placed upon you

[ember river]

Call it whatever, someone who doesn't get paid and yet has to obey every single order inquestionably is a serf

[torpid spade]

Flea Caravan

[terse warren]

this would make sense if Lace obeyed shit

[ember river]

Grindle depends on pilgrims to prey upon, they live by scavenging and stealing, with no pilgrims he's as good as dead

Flea caravan could be

[stray fog]

They probably have to listen to the flea masters

[gentle aspen]

At one point she did

[ember river]

She did until Hornet showed up

[sinful nimbus]

Well you can break out of slavery

But by default everyone in Pharloom is a slave, and a nuisance. Begone.

[terse warren]

what if i said that until yesterday i thought the damage outside of cell vents in the void fields lasted even after you cleared them ignore my totally on topic comment

[terse warren]

everyone in hkmain is a slave and a nuisance

[stray fog]

Bell eater

[ember river]

That's just a beast

[torpid spade]

the little void infected creatures that turn the abyss stone void

[stray fog]

Slave to hemmeroids

[sinful nimbus]

Surely Bell Eater was dormant to avoid the haunting

[limpid summit]

Why do you like this dialogue so much

What does it say about you

[sinful nimbus]

God forbid someone appreciate the themes of the game

[torpid spade]

Notice how no one has disputed Loddie and associate
ladybug carneys stay winning
25 rosaries for the game. no we will not tell you about the line

[terse warren]

yeah like slavery is good because hornet likes it

[ember river]

Hornet opposes that system and eventually brings it down

It's one of the big points

[terse warren]

wardenflies

[ember river]

All flies are explicitly slaves

[fresh badger]

NOO

[stray fog]

She doesn't like it
She just doesn't give a fuck about the slab flies being slaves

[dire lynx]

all roads lead to wardenflies or lace age ahh

[sinful nimbus]

Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits sympathy from me, we are all slaves to the Citadel, and nuisances... begone! 🗣️

[oak palm]

I wonder how old the slabflies are

[ember river]

She frees them with the business end of her needle

[rapid bloom]

Also, she hates the flies of the Slab

They are all she doesn't like

Stinky, gross

[torpid spade]

hornet reluctantly accepts styx into service. this makes her as evil as the bug catholic empire and the evil silk grandmother possessing people

[terse warren]

Retcons, Wardenflies, Lace age, Phantom Gender, the Great Four Topics

[rapid bloom]

She says that she doesn't feel remorse in killing them

[stray fog]

"why didn't the knight control those tendrils"

[torpid spade]

racism is not slavery

[dire lynx]

phantom gender is a stupid one, swap with green prince twincest or smt

[terse warren]

that's retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom gender comes up more often

[terse warren]

nah i wanna keep it

[ember river]

Hornet kinda does whatever she wants

Her moral code isn't particularly moral

[dire lynx]

hype moments and aura 🗣️ 🔥

[terse warren]

if we can find 2 more we can do the 7 human souls

[dire lynx]

my bingo card:

[terse warren]

Retcons, Wardenflies, Lace age, Phantom Gender, Green Prince Incest

[rapid bloom]

Just because he is useful to her

[stray fog]

Canon ending?

[terse warren]

#sk-lore bingo card always bet on retcons

[terse warren]

still retcon

[ember river]

Are people still bringing the clover dancers?

[stray fog]

People still like to argue that all endings are canon

[rapid bloom]

She also puts Cardinius into her service

[ember river]

Retcon of what

[terse warren]

what tc said

[ember river]

Word of god is always secondary to provided material

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway most of Silksong's abundant retcons are bad writing Hornet is racist which is also bad writing Lace is a child which is good writing Phantom is a girl which is also bad writing
Any questions

[stray fog]

Some of these are good discussions

[torpid spade]

scene: karmelita lays dead
gilly: but why did she have to die??
hornet: I mean technically I didnt have to I already killed that gay bug
gilly: without her this ecosystem will die!
hornet: but it was fun though

[rapid bloom]

The Clove Dancers are both green, share a soul so..

[dire lynx]

its just common topics, not all are bad

[terse warren]

writing discussion

the whole game is writing that's how it works

wait lace is a child is good writing?

but what about my lacenet?

[spark valve]

What about it

[stray fog]

Fuck yo lacenet

[ember river]

Not really

[terse warren]

i'd add Karak DLC but that's not lore

[terse warren]

my peak fiction that got shot out back by TC

[sinful nimbus]

Once you visit #sk-discussion you realize Silksong fans are so stupid we don't deserve any ships like that

[rapid bloom]

You all really want to explore what Karak was before eh? (me too)

[terse warren]

doomed yuri more like fuck you everyone

[stray fog]

PLEASE TEAM CHERRY GIVE US A FULL CORAL REGION

[terse warren]

summary punishment is against the geneva conventions

[stray fog]

I don't give a fuck if it doesn't fit the theme

I want it

[rapid bloom]

Karak would be Blasted Steps but literally filled with water and coral

[dire lynx]

yuri "people" when there is more than one female in a form of media:

[torpid spade]

yes and

[rapid bloom]

Let's not fight here

[dire lynx]

noone fighting, just laughing at lacenetters

[terse warren]

I'd add When did Karak fall but we all know Karak only fell during the citadel and not during gms right?

[sinful nimbus]

In all actuality Lace like defying her mother and having to come to terms with her nature is a neat mirror* to the main story*

-# *Story decides to focus on it for no reason in Act 3
-# *2 Main Story gets ignored in Act 3

[rapid bloom]

Oh, mb, I thought an argument would start

[stray fog]

This is the lore channel after all

[dire lynx]

anyone who knows the actual lore agrees lace is a kid

[terse warren]

TC deciding for no reason that GMS is a loving mother now (I will use this to spread propaganda)

[terse warren]

i agree doesn't mean it's good writing

[rapid bloom]

True

[terse warren]

at least we still got Shawkra

[sinful nimbus]

You mean Second Sentinel x Hornet

[rapid bloom]

Lace always was a child

She never grew up

She will never change

Unless Hornet knows some Hocus pocus to change her entirely

[spark valve]

I mean that’s not really the intended takeaway presumably but it is certainly a framing choice

[rapid bloom]

[torpid spade]

hey, did you know:
probably the most common architecture in pharloom is masonry, found from the blasted steps platforms to the putrified ducts pillars. the entire underworks is made of the stuff! it reeks of the citadel and religion of song with the iconography built into it, however the only place in the citadel this architecture is found is the bellway station (and perhaps a bit of whiteward and vaults but I haven't visited them yet on my new playthrough)

[fresh badger]

Citadel of stone moment

[ember river]

Second Sentinel x Sherma

[rapid bloom]

I think it was still named Citadel of Song

[ember river]

I'll seek myself out

[terse warren]

i mean how is it not, she's literally moving heaven and earth just to save lace

[rapid bloom]

What?

[torpid spade]

this is specifically denying citadel of stone

[spark valve]

Sure but like she still fuckin sucks

[sinful nimbus]

GMS cares about Lace's survival her idea of motherhood is just insanely messed up

[torpid spade]

oh and also has anyone noticed how the pillar caps of ducts and steps bare a striking resemblance to weavenest walls? it's not exact but it's very close

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure why they pulled an Ori at the end but uh who cares its Act 3 you can ignore it

[dire lynx]

second sentinel x me

[terse warren]

nah she my goat

[stray fog]

The material is too different to make a connection imo

[torpid spade]

material is just one part of the equation!

[stray fog]

Weavenest stuff is smooth
The pillars are coarse

[rapid bloom]

I am adopting Sherma

That's it

[torpid spade]

the pillars are obviously early citadel stonework but the design is a striking similarity to me

[ember river]

The citadel was built by weavers

How is it shocking

[rapid bloom]

The Weavers set the Pilgrim Path in place

[torpid spade]

it's not shocking at all! it's more evidence for the pile

[rapid bloom]

All of it

[gentle aspen]

<@&283547423706447872>

get this fella out of here

[stray fog]

?

Why

[gentle aspen]

i wonder why

[stray fog]

The c word is not allowed?

[torpid spade]

what's interesting is that the ducts specifically are not at all related to the pilgrimage
that was specifically in diverting water for the citadel (or likely in that era the fields of old graymoor)

[gentle aspen]

trust me that’s like the least of the problems with that message gng

[ember river]

The ducts are just a water intake

And probably outlet too

[rapid bloom]

You know, we cannot bang bugs

We shouldn't

[ember river]

Nor robots

[rapid bloom]

Oh, btw, canonically, Hornet is NOT thicc

She is a spider bloody..

[ember river]

Was this message really necessary?

[stray fog]

My bad

[ember river]

Did you have to punish our eyes with this?

[stray fog]

I apologize for my message

[rapid bloom]

[torpid spade]

it's also a giant construction with pillars going all the way down into far fields (that's the entire height of pharloom btw)

[ember river]

She's a cartoon silhouette with a head

[rapid bloom]

Obviously

[stray fog]

Wait do the. Pillars align like that?

[rapid bloom]

Okay, back to the topic

So construction

[torpid spade]

not align necessarily but you can see them in the background
very similar to ducts and only in the area immediately beneath ducts and no where else in pharloom

[stray fog]

True

[torpid spade]

goes through bilewater too

[rapid bloom]

So you took it upon yourself to check the worldbuilding?

[ember river]

That's probably for support, if the ducts had to supply the entire citadel the weight would have been considerable

[torpid spade]

in my current run I decided to take a closer look at it
though the pillar observation is originally from a reddit post

[ember river]

Keep in mind the entire megastructure is on top of several caverns

[rapid bloom]

True

[ember river]

I haven't checked the pillars myself so I'm taking your word for it

[rapid bloom]

Wait

One sec

[stray fog]

Don't the pillars appear in blasted steps too

And mt fay

[rapid bloom]

Would the Citadel be grander in size than the White Palace?

[ember river]

Possibly

[stray fog]

We never see the full white palace

[dire lynx]

we never see the full extent of either

[ember river]

We haven't really seen the full white palage

But the citadel is truly massive

[rapid bloom]

Oh yeah, you three are right since the White Palace is really distorted in Hollow Knight

[stray fog]

Isnt the white palace supposed to fit in the ancient basin

Then the citadel must be bigger

[torpid spade]

same style, yeah. which would mean same era of construction (I'm dubbing it the early Conductor period, right after the Weavers left. Mostly due to the style similarity of the pillar caps, yet the crude masonry of bugs using regular tools and nothing silk-aided)

[rapid bloom]

It should be, yes

Like you said, we don't know its full size

[dire lynx]

you are forgetting the third dimension

[ember river]

Yep, but you see there's this magical structure called doors that can make buildings much larger without following any sense of logic or reason

[dire lynx]

tis the same reason we never see the depths of the cogwork core

[torpid spade]

the Citadel is so large it has seven areas in total
im pr sure its larger than white palace

[rapid bloom]

Oh wait, Cogwork Core is massive

[ember river]

The Citadel is larger by virtue of ancient basin itself being smaller

[torpid spade]

1/3 of pharloom is made up of the citadel

or at least citadel+underworks

[ember river]

I consider the slab, ducts, underworks and exhaust organ as parts of the citadel

[dire lynx]

i think a better comparison would be city of tears (maybe with the palace)

[rapid bloom]

Because they are

[ember river]

City of tears+royal waterways+ancient basin

That was the capital of Hallownest as a whole

[rapid bloom]

We do not know how big the whole cavern is

[stray fog]

The ducts too?

[torpid spade]

from what we see in game the citadel is larger than any hallownest structure

[ember river]

The ducts were the water intake of the citadel, if they're not part of it in their totality, a good chunk of them is at least

[rapid bloom]

Because they dump waste there

It's Citadel's waste being dumped

Alongside the Exhaust Organ

[torpid spade]

remember: the Citadel turned an entire area desolate and barren so that the upper class could get waterfalls

[ember river]

Most of the water isn't even used for that

[rapid bloom]

Because there was no way they could have struck a deal with Khann even if they wanted to

[ember river]

The entire core runs on steam

Also I have my doubts about karak being drained by the Citadel using its water as intake

[torpid spade]

you know I think thats far smarter than what I was originally picturing (a thousand loams hidden among underworks running on treadmills and powering it all)

[ember river]

I believe it happened because the citadel blocked the ducts and separated the water flow

[stray fog]

This sounds like something that would happen irl

[torpid spade]

karak water coming from ducts is crazy ngl
I always thought of the karak water as coming from mt fay

[ember river]

The underworks' primary use seems to be the cauldron as a heat source and a bunch of maintenance stuff

Then some workshops to assemble or repair machines

[rapid bloom]

Idk if it was Mossbag that speculated this

Or Ccmaci

[ember river]

Haven't given much thought to where the karak water came from, but the citadel doesn't have intakes there, or at least I haven't found any

[rapid bloom]

But it could have been any of the scenarios, with the most likely being mount fay

Climate changes could have affected it

[ember river]

In fact I'd speculate it was already dry by the time the modern Citadel with the Grand Gate was built, since otherwise the Grand Gate would have been underwater

[rapid bloom]

I think that ending Karak was a good idea

They wouldn't have fit much in the current lore

[torpid spade]

if we assume that originally the area the citadel is on was a crater reaching down to ~underworks, ducts to karak makes some sense? but it doesnt really reach to the Tower

[rapid bloom]

Because Khann would have most likely attempted to end the Citadel himself

[stray fog]

W khann

[rapid bloom]

Had he still been alive

[ember river]

They could have just excavated over many, many years

[ember river]

He is alive

[stray fog]

Not Alive and functioning

[rapid bloom]

I mean, yes

But dried up

He is a fossil

+-

As are the other Karaka

[ember river]

As much as the Watcher

Nope, the rest are actually dead

They break like that dead judge

Khann dies the same death as normal, living karak

[rapid bloom]

I wonder what happened to the bugs of Karak

Cos there were bugs in his army

[torpid spade]

water is proposed path, red circled is untouched karak, light blue is extremely convenient pools of water 5 feet away

[rapid bloom]

Not made of coral

[torpid spade]

ancestors of common day pilgrims, perhaps

[ember river]

Again, anything that doesn't involve the citadel literally slurping the water out of karak through nonexistent pipes makes me happy

[ember river]

Which ones?

The jellyfish?

[rapid bloom]

The flying ones and the fast bugs

[torpid spade]

I'm basing the existence of westward ducts on the many bridges from the Citadel that lead that way, similar to those which head east and also presumably carry water

[rapid bloom]

They have some very weird names

[rapid bloom]

Or, since Mount Fay is literally above...

[ember river]

Alitas are the fast ones and they share the same scheme

I think the karak bugs have normal shells, they're not made of coral

[rapid bloom]

Exactly

[torpid spade]

idk how else karak just suddenly doesnt have water
one day they have a stream and are powerful. then the citadel comes and challenges their rule. the citadel who built giant aqueducts with pillars extending the entire length of pharloom diverting water from a peaceful tribe. and now suddenly there is no water and karak is dry and barely powerful

[rapid bloom]

Which made me wonder what happened to them

Old age?

[ember river]

The flying ones are also much closer to Khann himself than normal karaka

[rapid bloom]

Oh wait, yes!

[torpid spade]

I remember seeing someone point out that the shells of the small skull guys in the marrow are basically 1-1 with the kakri heads

[rapid bloom]

I gotta replay Silksong

[rapid bloom]

Wait

Fr?

One sec

[ember river]

Normal karaka probably forged their armors from coral, like conchflies

[rapid bloom]

Wait

Yes!

[rapid bloom]

I mean, it's a sturdy material

Not really the best but coral is strong

[ember river]

Yeah, I mean that they are normal bugs underneath

[torpid spade]

karaka do more than fashion themselves armor from coral considering how they just kinda turn into coral when they die

[ember river]

The Skullwing also ressembles the Yago a lot

[ember river]

Yeah it's a weird power they have

[torpid spade]

I see that!

[ember river]

But they're relatively normal bugs otherwise

[torpid spade]

perhaps the Marrow is an ancient battlefield of the old Karak Khannate?

Oh speaking of old Karak Khannate
have ya'll seen the post that suggests the shell shard statues in moss grotto are border stones of karak and verdania

[ember river]

The marrow just seems where they threw the corpses

Also technically the karak were a kingdom, Khann is just the name

That's why he's the Crust King

[torpid spade]

karak kingdom doesnt have the same ring to it as the karak khannate tbh

[torpid spade]

anyway https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1oy4rwt/evidence_for_war_between_act_3_spoliers_and/

[ember river]

Eh

Pretty unremarkable

The Skarrs are clearly just wearing masks

Not the mask maker kind, the normal ones

You can even see their eyes peeking underneath

[torpid spade]

well duh

the post is theorizing that the verdania once spread to moss grotto, and that the skarrs who inherited that land had peaceful if not respectful relations with them as per the lack of any verdania skull headware

[ember river]

Most of those statues aren't that well-defined to claim as karaka either

[ember river]

I don't think Verdania ever spread that far

Plus verdania creatures would make for terrible masks, it makes sense that Skarr made them out of the creatures in their own grounds

Keep in mind Far Fields were Skarr territory

[torpid spade]

Far Fields is Skarr territory, but they also stretched as far as the Marrow

[ember river]

Yeah, through Hunter's March

[torpid spade]

anyways yeah I have to agree with you on this post
it's very interesting but the connection between the Escalion and that shell shard statue feels like a stretch

[ember river]

Also, I doubt the karaka ever ventured that far down

[torpid spade]

and presumably in ancient Pharloom they also controlled the area that is modern day Deep Docks

[ember river]

Their kingdom encompassed the blasted steps and not much more

[torpid spade]

How so? I've always felt it a natural expansion. Snail Shamans say they ruled half of Pharloom after all

[whole holly]

what was Greymoor like, was it Verdania territory, it doesn't seem like it

[torpid spade]

Since nearly all of the construction in Graymoor and Sinner's Road as well is made of bamboo, it was probably like wisp thicket (with less wisps so just thicket) before the Citadel cleared it for farmland

[ember river]

I don't think the Skarrs would have ventured to such an inhospitable area, especially since they don't have any metallic tools or weapons, which they could have produced had they reached deep docks

[ember river]

Nah, Greymoor was a bunch of farms

[ember river]

Well, Shellwood was Nyleth's territory

[whole holly]

yeah, i think that too

[ember river]

Maybe they occupied part of what would be the citadel

[torpid spade]

well not below the lava of Deep Docks. Mostly above and around it. There was land there and I don't think it was more inhospitable than lower Far Fields or the Marrow

[ember river]

Could be, not enough evidence to confirm anything

[torpid spade]

this is true

[whole holly]

why are Snail Shamans so nomadic, more so than any other species/tribe we see

[torpid spade]

Well we know they venture down there at least, since Spear Skarr have Tarmite skull helmets

[twin dragon]

Peak details

[whole holly]

i agree

[ember river]

Nomadic? In the first game they never left their homes

[torpid spade]

I mean in Hallownest they seemed confined to their mounds for some reason

[ember river]

And even in silksong they don't move much

The snails are a spread out race, each family seems to settle a specific region

[whole holly]

they have wide variety of homes, there is no area they are native too, or seem to be, despite being bound to stuff, all of them seem to be diaspora

[torpid spade]

the Ruined Chapel seems to be the Pharloom Shamans' original home, what with the spiral iconography and ancestral burial grounds

[ember river]

Yep

[ember river]

Diaspora is anything that doesn't have an army to impose themselves honestly

[torpid spade]

They probably seperated due to GMS' growing influence, though this may be speculation

[whole holly]

they may have built it depending on their lifespan, yeah shaman diaspora of pharloom is likely there

[whole holly]

like Weavers left Pharloom to Hallownest, where are Shamans originally from, Mosslands?

[ember river]

Who knows

But snails don't seem to have an organized society

[torpid spade]

When you claim the Shaman's Crest, multiple pairs of eyes pop out to watch. Presumably that is the lingering soul of the ancient shamans or whatever, but it implies they have lived in Pharloom for a while
if the Shamans did diaspora across the world, it would've been a long, long time ago. Unless Pharloom was their origin, which I don't think is true

[ember river]

Or a kingdom anywhere

Nah pharloom most definetely isn't

[whole holly]

Deepnest have weaver iconography as well, but they aren't native to it

[torpid spade]

well yeah cuz the Weavers lived there for a while

and built it

[whole holly]

i never saw that

[ember river]

Not to mention the queen of deepnest was a weaver

[twin dragon]

About that...

[ember river]

They were quite influential

[torpid spade]

It's a neat little detail and it looks like soul particles but they're stationary and always paired

[ember river]

The bride to the sire of deepnest

Whatever

Herrah

[whole holly]

Shamans could have done same, even if Shamans are not exactly first generation shamans likely

[ember river]

You know who I mean

[torpid spade]

plus the existence of an ancient shamans shell in the chapel of the shaman...

[twin dragon]

Retconned weaver

but weaver nevertheless

[ember river]

Don't care

[whole holly]

oh, thanks, does anyone have image though?

[ember river]

If they say she's a weaver, she's a weaver

[torpid spade]

look in the background

[whole holly]

that could depend on their lifespand and generations of shamans who lived there, i don't think that are native to it

[torpid spade]

Yeah that's what I meant
the diaspora wouldve had to been a long time ago since there's generations of Shamans living in Pharloom

[ember river]

That shell must have been a hell of a powerful mage

[ember river]

What diaspora do you even mean, they try to hide themselves from bugs, their culture and power is for them and them alone

Unless a child of wyrm shows up and starts killing everyone I guess

[whole holly]

thank you, weirdly enough Shaman souls are unique in that even after death they don't dissipate in air, across games we see them persist as Spells or even Soul constructs, Soul Master's Soul dissipates and other species too after death i guess

[torpid spade]

the theory that Nika posited which seems likely to me
shamans seem related somehow. if not the same "family," still same type of bug
which means they would have to originate somewhere

[whole holly]

yeah, they aren't open to rest of society

[ember river]

Shamans are snails, why is this a debate in the first place?

They are simply spread out, their origins are unknown

[whole holly]

all tribe has origins, it is not debate so much as discussion

[ember river]

And will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future

[torpid spade]

thats what a diaspora is
a group of people spreading out

[ember river]

Yeah, it's completely unknown and we don't have information to even begin to theorize

[whole holly]

it is not theorizing, i didn't propose any theory, i just said they are diaspora

[ember river]

What does that even change

[torpid spade]

we're in a video game lore channel. discussing little tiny details that hold no relevance outside of the discussion is the whole point

[whole holly]

do i have to change world and revolutionize lore of HK universe? no i am just discussing

[ember river]

I'm a bit reluctant to use human terms for a setting where a god can just show up and blow up the minds of an entire species (or several) is all, but technically, yes, they're a diaspora, this truly was a hollow conversation

[torpid spade]

we can say theyre a bug migration if thats better for you

[whole holly]

i think you are salty because you didn't know what diaspora was at start of discussion

[ember river]

I did, I just thought you were trying to ask if snails came from pharloom or whatever

[torpid spade]

I wonder if the snail diaspora was really slow
they are snails
but at the same time caretaker and bellhermit got to the ruined chapel extremely fast

[whole holly]

it wasn't even theory it was just a comment , i don't know why this got blown up

[ember river]

90% of magic users in the setting can teleport at will

[whole holly]

i don't think there are slow species, other than Unn

[torpid spade]

how many pilgrims does it take to get enough soul to teleport

[torpid spade]

unn is a slug

[whole holly]

i don't think they need to extract soul from bugs, ambient soul is in the air

[ember river]

Snails seem to produce soul themselves, that's why their souls are considerably powerful

[ember river]

They do need to sacrifice bugs to make certain spells

[torpid spade]

one of the spell recipes in ruined chapel quite literally says "you gotta get some pilgrims and hang em out to dry"

[ember river]

That's in the chapel tablets

[whole holly]

yes, certain ones

[torpid spade]

Anguished Aura
Eight masks hard, swirled soul enraged.
Twelve aknids flat, all juices strained.
Six pilgrims living, hung long to drain.

[ember river]

But teleporting seems a very basic spell, apparently everyone and their mother can teleport in the hollow knight universe

[whole holly]

what is other one on other side?

[torpid spade]

Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

only other spell ingredient list

[ember river]

Also, would that be to "unlock" the spell or every time they want to cast it?

It seems impractical if they have to wait long for pilgrims to drain every time

[torpid spade]

I imagine itd be similar to like witch's brew "eye of newt" sorta scenario
needs to get those materials to cast as bugs without pale lineage

[wispy rampart]

Guys does groal shoot vengeful spirits cause he is vengeful?

[torpid spade]

groal shoots vengeful spirits cuz he drank up the seeker's soul like it was alcohol

[ember river]

I mean, groal shoots vengeful spirits without waiting for the sacrifice to die screaming or whatever, and he's definetely not pale

[whole holly]

i mean only Flame we see is Wisp Flame and Scarlet Flame, this is extremely interesting, Wisp Flames burn Silk it seems and is generated from Self-Immolation , Scarlet Flame is generated by sacrifice and fight, it makes sense Flickering Flame to also be made from horrors, i don't think it looks like Wisp or Scarlet Flame

[ember river]

The spells would also be extremely impractical if you had to wait that long every time

[torpid spade]

I mean we literally see bodies hanged outside the entrance into bilewater so like

[ember river]

Maybe those are some pretty powerful and nasty spells that can cause substantial damage

[ember river]

Yeah, but they just do that

[twin dragon]

Probably something to form the spell

To make the imprint

[ember river]

They are genocidal freaks

[ember river]

That's what I thought

[whole holly]

creating spells seem to be difficult, since shamans create their spells and form it

[torpid spade]

but even then I would assume hanging bodies out to dry would be gathering soul
which groal has enough of

so thats one ingredient checked off

[twin dragon]

considering how easily groal casts spells

soul master aswell

spells are soul moulds basically

[ember river]

All the sanctum bugs can cast spells fairly easily

[whole holly]

does anyone think Flickering Flame is related to Wisp Thicket Ritual, it wouldn't be first time enclosed secret society tried to steal shaman's spellcraft to resit infection and perpetrate horrors

[ember river]

But most bugs can't focus/bind so they can't just magically imprint the knowledge inside their minds

[torpid spade]

"soul mold" makes sense with how knight and hornet use spells

fair point

[ember river]

No, shaman spells are related to soul, or at the very least they have been up to this point

[twin dragon]

Yeah well no shit, the spells they have are stolen

[torpid spade]

wisp thicket seems like their own fucked up thing
doesnt seem to be any soul there, at least from how we know it

[whole holly]

yea, but isn't Silk close enough to Soul

[ember river]

Silk is soul woven into a thread

That's beyond the shamans' power to do though

[whole holly]

i mean Wisp Thicket tool burns Silk to create wisps

[ember river]

Unless they were using the silk inside the pilgrims for some effects

[torpid spade]

oh that is interesting

[ember river]

Spells are essentially manipulating one of the primal forces in one way or another

So Essence, Void, Soul that we know of

[whole holly]

Silk inherits all properties of Soul, i don't think they spells are restricted to only use raw soul so to speak, when silk has all the properties

[ember river]

I mean snails can't weave silk

Silken spells are cast through runes though

[viscid ridge]

I think it burns silk cause its using the soul to create life

[whole holly]

that is right yes, but access to it isn't limited to weavers, they just use it most effectively

[viscid ridge]

I think they can to an extent. They cant produce silk on their own, but they definitely know how to use it, not as good as the weavers, but still.

[whole holly]

i don't think this reflects Wisp Ritual too much

[viscid ridge]

They were able to use Hornets silk to create the trap for act 3 so

[ember river]

That's not weaving silk, that's using it, and by the looks of it, it doesn't seem too hard

Citadel bugs have been able to use silk to great extent

[whole holly]

if they can use soul and silk has all known properties of soul and inherits, shamans can use it likely, but not create it

[ember river]

Namely, Grand Reeds and Choir Clappers can cast prety nasty attacks

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but he and hornet definitely weaved it, its not as intricate as the other runes we see, but its still something.

[viscid ridge]

My thoughts too

[whole holly]

Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

[ember river]

By weaving silk, what I mean is they can weave soul into silk

[whole holly]

maybe this is how Wisp ritual started?

[ember river]

That's limited to weavers and GMS

[ember river]

No?

[viscid ridge]

To be fair hornet does say they use silk in very dumb ways in the journal. Atleast the caretaker knows at least how to use it properly

[whole holly]

okay?

[ember river]

Why would they make the father of the flame and never interact with it again

If there was a mound or snail shell or something you could have a point

[whole holly]

i don't think that's the issue

[whole holly]

good point

[viscid ridge]

Oh yeah definitely, they cant create it on their own, but they know how to work it into runes when they get their hands on it from somewhere else

[ember river]

Using it is not hard or complicated, using it well is

And they most definetely know how to use silk appropiately, as much as they have a notion on how to use void

[viscid ridge]

Exactly

[whole holly]

i don't think Wisp is straight up burned Soul/Silk, i think ritual was started one way or another, Shaman could be plausible

[ember river]

I don't think shamans would make something like the wisp thicket

They only really interact with other bugs when they have something to gain

[whole holly]

i don't think regular bugs did

[ember river]

The flame bugs don't seem regular by any means though

[viscid ridge]

I think it just naturally occurs in the thicket, or maybe the bugs found it out by some spell or something.

[whole holly]

i mean, they are regular enough bugs with spells affecting them like Soul Sanctum bugs

[ember river]

But it doesn't look anything like the snails would do

[whole holly]

what else could it be

[viscid ridge]

Maybe the fire ij the thicket is as a result of being right under the cauldron? If i remember correctly the burning bugs are ex underworkers looking for salvation, so maybe they used their knowledge of fire and runes to summon the flames or something

[ember river]

Anything else in the world? What's this obsession with tying it down to the same 3 factions?

[whole holly]

i mean Ritual generates it, Father of Flame is original burning bug, maybe he was victim of Flickering Flame spell?

[viscid ridge]

But honestly a strange area i hope we get some expansions on it

[whole holly]

anything else in world is not as plausible as shamans though

[ember river]

That's new

[ember river]

It is because shamans have never done anything like that

Or seem inclined to make an idol deity

The only semblance of a source you have is a random spell tablet

That mentions flame

[whole holly]

but Underworks bugs don't have knowledge to start a ritual, is it communist revolution for them? maybe but i doubt ritual was started by them, unless fire can just do that to soul

[ember river]

Even Hornet doesn't know how they can control the wisps

But they are their own tribe

Neither aesthetically nor functionally do they bear the slightest indication of snails being the ones behind it

[whole holly]

they don't seem like they were planning to make idols sure, but that's not the issue with theory

[ember river]

The issue is that it's held by flimsy string

[whole holly]

functionally they used bugs for spells, so did burning bugs but they self-immolated, shamans did similar things to other bugs, larger society being formed around spell could just be side effect that's not related to shamans

[ember river]

A bug sought immolation as part of a ritual and became a totem god worshipped by the firing bugs, even that setup doesn't line up with the spell at all

[whole holly]

ritual is happening pretty close to Bellheart , bell hermits home

[ember river]

There are no indicators of snail presence nearby, nor comments to Hornet wearing the lantern, nor any indicator

[ember river]

It happens higher than the top of bellhart, the hermit lives way down

he's much closer to the marrow than to the thicket

[low pilot]

the red line is the top of abyss pink line is void lake orange is surface

[ember river]

I think Hallownest goes much lower

The surface isn't true surface either

[low pilot]

yah in sk it seems like a large cave with surface path being a pillar of sorts

so hallownest surface would be like top of mt fay in altitude

[ember river]

So the White Palace is essentially bordering the Abyss, remember that you can find Shadow Creepers in ancient basin

[low pilot]

yah but pharloom abyss is more definitive cus of escape sequence

thats why i lined hn up with that abyss

[ember river]

With this scale, Hallownest's surface would be roughly around the same level as blasted steps

[ember river]

Yeah, but that pulls down Hallownest in its entirety

[whole holly]

i have those too

[ember river]

Ancient Basin is pretty much in the Abyss already, you can enter it by walking horizontally

[ember river]

If Pharloom ends up being the land of storms Team Cherry may have written themselves into a corner

[low pilot]

the opening of ss with the gated in blasted steps makes that check out

[whole holly]

yeah, where are the the storms, Pharloom Bay area?

[ember river]

Not because of that

[low pilot]

i thik land of storms is just the true surface hoenstly

[low pilot]

the dlc is gonna prob change this map cus of a "sea"

[ember river]

The gods of thunder & rain are completely absent, they didn't go worship the actual pale deity below them, they have no recollection of the weavers

Make no remarks about Hornet

[low pilot]

yah

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows is interesting

[ember river]

Sea of Sorrows is probably lifeblood focused

[low pilot]

its on my map right of bilewater

[whole holly]

is it possible they didn't detect Sleeping god?

[ember river]

Due to zylotol's dialogue

[low pilot]

wait u might be onto smth

im in vc 4 if u wanna join