sk-lore

[limpid summit]

I find it mostly solid

[muted lantern]

also the pilgrim sign near silkspear references healing, and camora is the healing weaver

[limpid summit]

Except it calls one random weaver Cindril

Cindril probably left with Herrah

[craggy smelt]

Camora is described as "weaver of healing", and her effigy is found in mosshome. the lore tablet below the weaver in mosshome reads
By grace you warded. By thread you healed.
so, Camora is the weaver found in bone bottom, who grants you silk spear

[limpid summit]

Makes sense enough

Could this be cindril

[muted lantern]

ok i can buy atla is fs

[limpid summit]

First to leave last to return

[craggy smelt]

the writer speculated that Cindril might be the weaver who gives you Silk Step, since that's associated with running

[muted lantern]

Maybe I'll stop mixing up first sinner and widows names if i start calling fs atla

[limpid summit]

Fair but the Ballador rune harp suggests that all the pillar weavers believed the Citadel would go on forever

Which is contrary to the Cindril harp

I don’t think Cindril is entombed

[muted lantern]

If cindril was with herrahs group, and i get this is a longshot, could cindril be herrahs old name? maybe she took on a new name when she became queen of deepnest?

[limpid summit]

Unless the weavenest was just named Cindril and she left it

[limpid summit]

Hmm

[craggy smelt]

maybe Cindril was in Hallownest and came back
they ran off and were like 'shit, gotta get home! gotta get a silk skill ready!'

[limpid summit]

Lowkey?

Maybe

Who knows

Nothing for or against

[craggy smelt]

the cindril rune harp contains a message telling others to flee, maybe Cindril stayed behind to see everyone else out safely

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight."
the speaker doesn't seem to include themselves in the exodus plans

[limpid summit]

Ah I suppose

I dunno

It feels a bit limiting to assign every Weaver name to a corpse

[muted lantern]

Also people have discussed herrah being a drapemite, and the visual evidence is there, the main question is the why of it. Why make them not out of pharlids? my only guess is that maybe pharlids became quite rare during the citadels time? we find them only in the fringes and hidden places, maybe they were hunted to near extinction by the weavers so that nobody could realize the connection? they seem to imprison atla for suggesting the truth of their origin so it's not too farfetched.

[craggy smelt]

stayed behind making shoes for everybody

[limpid summit]

But it’s what we have

[limpid summit]

My idea is as long as we have to explain Herrah’s weird body type GMS just stretched her threads out and awakened a few random bugs

Mostly Pharlids but a few random other ones

Like giant drapemites

[muted lantern]

Herrah being the beast could be related to her being seen as lower for not being pharlid born

but its also just as likely to be a title gained from becoming deepnests queen

[limpid summit]

Hmm

Well I mean

Ugh

[craggy smelt]

drapemite theory isn't bad
my theory is Herrah thought going to sleep as a Dreamer was like hibernation, so she gorged herself and got really fat like a bear

[limpid summit]

Why do the Shrumals (obviously enlightened species) have to call her a common beast specifically

That sucks especially when they recognize the nobility of the Sire

Retcons…

[muted lantern]

i think that is the case, but drapemite theory is more to explain her horns, which seem to be natural considering hornet

[limpid summit]

The only circumstantial reason I lean towards drapemite theory is because they have the same attack pattern (scream, slash slash slash) as the Devouts

Who would have copied Herrah’s moves

[craggy smelt]

since Weavers were refugees and outsiders to the area, they may have been afforded a lower status, seen as 'commoners' that came under the authority of Deepnest's rulers

[limpid summit]

But that’s not exactly a revolutionary tactic

I suppose but who were they competing with

That’s now the only dialogue that suggests there was any actual cohesive Deepnest society besides them

Midwife is now just a Weaver groupie and we still don’t know about the distant villager finger puppets

[muted lantern]

Also a point against drapemite theory is that weaver cloaks aren't natural but neither are drapemites if you read their entry

Drapeflies however, seem to grow their cloaks

[craggy smelt]

I wish we knew more about Weaver masks, the big round ones - were they worn to give all weavers the same shape because their 'natural' faces had all kinds of different shapes underneath?

[limpid summit]

I mean like

Sure

[edgy nebula]

drapemites are mites, like in greymoor, so if you take herrahs cloak off she'd have crazy teeth and bulging eyes prolly

[muted lantern]

Considering first sinner I imagine the masks are natural. Since they were there from the pharlids head shape, though they got refined later into the dome.

[limpid summit]

I would think so but I think the round masks are just evolutions of their previous forms from FS

Yeah exactly

And their actual head matter is like smaller

So widow was effectively skinned

[muted lantern]

The term mite is used pretty loosely, drapemites are clearly arachnids in line with the real world mite, while greymoor mites clearly aren't.

[craggy smelt]

maybe their round masks are kind've an homage to Atla, since they evoke her head most of all - but more 'complete' while hers is 'broken'

[limpid summit]

Eh

The Widow cutscene is like

GMS era right

They all had them then

[craggy smelt]

sure, I don't mean that they adopted them after the rebellion
but more to take after their eldest sister

[muted lantern]

Mite also seems to be a derogatory term of sorts, as hornet gets referred to as a mite more than once

[limpid summit]

I think there may have been other Pharlid Weavers like FS but they’re just not shown (metawise to give FS a defining characteristic)

The other Weavers may be Pharlid Divers with the head spike at the back evening out rather than accentuating

I drew it in my notes app a while back

[edgy nebula]

ah yeah fair, since bilemites also exist

[muted lantern]

The main evidence for drapemites being arachnids is not the term mite but their 8 legs on the large ones.

[muted lantern]

I generally see weaver masks as something that grew with them from pharlid form, fs was just the prototype and GMS refined her design as she went.

Fs mask is a lot more resembling the pharlid mask implying it's a natural part of their body

[craggy smelt]

if Widow sat down, I think her cowl would cover her almost as much as Herrah's
I wonder if Herrah chose to discard a round mask before taking on the Dreamer's mask

[craggy smelt]

there were some cut sprites of weaver silhouettes, with broken masks like FS but all different configurations
(but cut content...)

[limpid summit]

I doubt Herrah ever had a round mask

First of all it would have to be unbelievably big proportionally

Even with her redesign

[craggy smelt]

it'd have been an awkward fit

[viscid ridge]

Idk i thought so whenwe first got red memory, but herrah has such a unique head structure i dont think she had any other head shape before

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[muted lantern]

I like drapemite herrah personally, as it's the best explanation we have for why she looks so different, those horns could have never fit in a round mask, and they are natural as she clearly passed them down to hornet. (Who's mask is implied to be natural as we see it grow with her.

[limpid summit]

Six eyes all the way at the bottom

[craggy smelt]

round but with little holes at the top for the horns

[limpid summit]

Now if we have drapemite weavers could there have been flying drapewing or tarmite weavers

Or do you think GMS limited it to arachnid esque bugs

[craggy smelt]

we need more living weavers with weird head shapes to show up in DLC
solidify the 'many arachnids' weaver theory

[viscid ridge]

I still think there is much more diversity in weaver anatomy than we are willing to prove right now

[limpid summit]

I wish

I hope that they branch out now that they’ve cemented Herrah as one

Base game was damage control

Now they can go all out

[craggy smelt]

oh, I just got that tarmites are 'tar mites', i.e. mites that spit tar

[limpid summit]

I didn’t even register that it sort of sounds like termite

[muted lantern]

Also this is my most crackpot theory but I don't think herrah was really wearing the dreamer mask in that memory. Think about it, why wouldn't hornet remember her dreamer mask, it's plastered over the black egg which she clearly visited. Additionally herrah refers to herself in that moment in red memory talking about if hornet will remember her like this as "a mother... Before the mask..." I think the dreamers mask is blurred over her face because hornet can't remember her real face, and only sees the dreamer mask representing her slumber.

[limpid summit]

I know leg eater isn’t a termite canonically but like come on he’s a termite right

[craggy smelt]

maybe I was too busy calling them 'mother fucking shit eaters'

[limpid summit]

Voided tarmites during voided savage beastfly

[craggy smelt]

I die

I'm dead now

[limpid summit]

To this day I still really

Don’t understand what Monomon and Quirrel did with the mask

What was her deal when she didn’t physically have the mask

[muted lantern]

Mite seems to be a derogatory term in game hornet is called young mite by mergwin, and trobbio refers to people as mite or mourner.

[craggy smelt]

that makes a lot of sense actually

[limpid summit]

But I like your headcanon

Honestly I would call that a theory

[craggy smelt]

Hornet really can just barely remember her before the mask

probably had a face like Widow (holes in the cowl)

[muted lantern]

The before the mask line I'd consider hard evidence personally, but it's vague enough to be debatable.

But based on context before the mask seems to refer to how she is right in that moment, as it's preceded by "will you remember me like this" or something of that sort

[viscid ridge]

I would agree with the drapemites being the thing that herrahs kind of weaver is ascended from, but they just dont share the same characteristics that the other pharlids do. Pharlids have a very unique wiggly leg design that the drapemites jyst dont have, and i think hornet would've commented on them if she saw any resemblance in them. I also think drapemites came into existence only after the citidel was built, so if we assume herrah was born before the citidel the timelines don't quite match up.

But i think we'll get a 3rd type of pharlid in a dlc that herrah will stem from

[muted lantern]

We don't really know if all weavers were made at once

But that's still a good point

[viscid ridge]

I personally think they aren't, but people in here argue they were so I'll keep it at that till we get further information

[craggy smelt]

Herralid
Hornet's Journal - Alright, this is pretty messed up to see.

[limpid summit]

Well to be fair

[muted lantern]

Drapemites are likely post citadel, at least in their cloth draped form. They could have adapted from a non cloth draped creature.

[limpid summit]

I guess visually she might have commented

But she comments on the pharlid’s attack patterns, and it’s only Pharlid weavers we see in the Den

[muted lantern]

"Jesus Christ I just killed my ancestors" -hornet probably

[limpid summit]

So those are the only hereditary attack patterns she would have seen

She would never have seen Herrah fight like a Drapemite

[muted lantern]

If we ever get a dream herrah fight we gotta compare some shit.

[viscid ridge]

I think it will be something like a Pharlid queen or something that herrah will be descended from

[muted lantern]

Rn drapemite theory is preferred by me because "she only looks different because it's a retcon" is a boring answer and assumes you can't retcon something and give a convincing explanation for why she looks different at the same time.

[viscid ridge]

Honestly I'll take retcon over people theorizing herrah became fat because she became a dreamer 💀

[limpid summit]

Hidden long... waiting long...
Golden claws... snap them...
Scalding breath... take cover...
Double steps... strike quickly!

This isn’t evidence one way or another but I find the Giant Drapemite NDD interesting

[muted lantern]

If I was retconning something I'd still attempt to make a reasonable explanation for the discrepancy.

[limpid summit]

It personifies the Citadel as a creature in and of itself

Which is consistent with Pharloom’s Folly and the double citadel GMS metaphor

[muted lantern]

They seem kinda... Smart? That's them referring to fighting the choir and dodging steam vents.

[limpid summit]

I think if they meant for her to be able to fit in a Weaver mask they’d shrink the horns to Hornet length

So yeah

[viscid ridge]

Not really smart, all sorts of creatures use metaphors to refer to stuff around them.i think its just team cherrys way of making them seem more animalistic

[muted lantern]

Don't most beasts use one word lines?

I don't remember entirely

[edgy nebula]

giant drapemites might be colorblind cause their claws dont look very golden

[limpid summit]

Actually like

Weirdly no

[edgy nebula]

savage beastfly is a philosopher

[viscid ridge]

Not really no

[limpid summit]

While the Infection ultimately reduces bugs to simple instinct the Haunting seems to actually make most regular bugs more aware?

Or at least hint at their higher thought

[muted lantern]

Golden claws are likely describing citadel weapons or cogwork gears.

[limpid summit]

I guess it’s consistent with what we know about GMS

[viscid ridge]

I have no foubt there are some, but most i can remember they still use full sentences

Doubt*

[muted lantern]

Weavers got increased intelligence, being spun into a hive mind might make them smarter.

[limpid summit]

She’d prefer to have intelligent sycophants

[muted lantern]

Tbf savage beast fly might also be smart

Ignore him hitting his head against a wall

I've seen grown men do that

[edgy nebula]

yeah i do that after fighting savage beastfly

[viscid ridge]

I think its refering to pins, like how huntress calls the needle a false claw

[muted lantern]

That's what I meant by citadel weapons

[edgy nebula]

i dont think giant drapemites are very smart

[muted lantern]

I think they are smarter than the average beast Is what i mean

[viscid ridge]

Eh

[muted lantern]

Like a crow compared to like a dog

Crow might be too smart of a term, ughh

But you get what I mean, some slightly more intelligent animals, but it doesn't matter anyway

[edgy nebula]

well, they dont seem any smarter than crustcrags

[viscid ridge]

I know what you mean but i doubt it

It just seems like basic hunting and survival strategies

[muted lantern]

Did someone just react to this with fucking yogi bear

[viscid ridge]

I'm wondering if we'll see the craglers in the bay now? And if they are, they question is why are some of them way on the other side of pharloom?

[edgy nebula]

honestly it is probably for the better herrah would be a drapemite, assuming it becomes canon

weaver herrah looks a little devilish

[muted lantern]

If a drapemite, I wonder if she had a mask at all, or looked like widow with horns

Also am I crazy or is the new herrah design larger than the average weaver

[craggy smelt]

glorious

[limpid summit]

Okay this is sort of hard

But I still like drapeherrah

[dreamy onyx]

my issue with drapemites is that

are they even related to pharlids

aren't weavers specifically evolved pharlids

[viscid ridge]

This art is absolutely fire, but i think herrah would probably look something like this

This is one of mask makers masks btw

[limpid summit]

First Sinner was

We can extrapolate that most Weavers are

Because they look similar to her

[limpid summit]

Oh

Well I guess that does it then

That’s probably what she looked like

[viscid ridge]

And probably pharlid divers seeing as they are also in the memory sequence

[dreamy onyx]

yeah but i think the drapemites are a different species entirely

[viscid ridge]

I know ive argued that herrah probably comes from a pharlid we haven't seen yet, not drapemites 👍

[dreamy onyx]

maybe she's a sea pharlid lol

they'll introduce a sort of diver pharlid

we have one that attacks on the ground, one that attacks from the air, why not one that attacks from the water

[viscid ridge]

Eh i doubt it, herrah doesn't really have all that much to do with water

My guess is there will be a pharlid varient thats bigger than the rest, and its called like Pharlid Queen or something

[dreamy onyx]

wait maybe

pharlid queen and its specifically one that has a lot of children

[viscid ridge]

But a diving bell pharlid would go pretty hard ngl

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-gif-968943876633031890

[edgy nebula]

it's like it's some type of... pharlid diver

[viscid ridge]

What are we? Some kind of silk... song?

[silk dirge]

where is this from

ah

[viscid ridge]

Its one of mask makers masks

[silk dirge]

deepnest one i assume

[viscid ridge]

Yea

Maybe hornet will be able to create a silk bubble so she can breathe and swim under water? Just like a diving bell spider? That would be sick

[silk dirge]

i wonder if the submarine is going to be of weaver make

i saw a theory that maybe zylotols master is a weaver or some shit like that

idk how that would work out but it would be interesting

[viscid ridge]

I think it is, theres something in one of the weavenests that reminds me a lot of it

[silk dirge]

eva?

the window does look kinda similar to eva

[viscid ridge]

That would be pretty cool if his master was a weaver, we do know his master is a woman so maybe she ends up being a weaver?

[dry compass]

Could hornet could have interacted With Hive Knight

[silk dirge]

ofc i doubt theres any relation other than it probably just

being weaver architecture

[viscid ridge]

No not eva theres something else i saw that reminded me of it, not her tank. I just cant remember, ill have a look and get back if i remember

[silk dirge]

also speaking of weavenests its interesting to me that weavers den is basically just a bright weavenest

[viscid ridge]

Probably

[silk dirge]

i thought the architecture was different but no its literally the same

it just has brighter lighting

[dry compass]

Damn that was the most simple answer i got here

[viscid ridge]

Actually the weavers den shares more similarities to the citidel, which is cool cause the weavers probably switched to that type of architecture after the citidel was built

A lot more gold and red

[silk dirge]

interesting

[edgy nebula]

makes her look a little funky

[viscid ridge]

Honestly that looks sick

[silk dirge]

yeah

apparently theres a cut pharlid variant that looked like herrah

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i have it on hand

But its very small

[silk dirge]

smol spider

[cloud zodiac]

||https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Cut_Content_(Silksong)/Areas||

I think this site is worth for mentioning, you can find here many lore related content, for example how would look like before Sand of Karak|| (Red coral Gorge)||, and blasted steps with water, i find it pretty interesting and usefull, who want to dig more deeply in the game lore/development changes however be noticed, ⚠️ many of content are not available in the current version of the game, (so you can't play it) The other interesting stuff is related to Verdanina is pretty interesting as well. For example|| Verdania (Aspid, CloverLand) was originally going to be thriving in the current time period and be located where the Wormways currently are, both combined into a single region with the room with the Craggler being part of it||

Also foreshadowing some content what is cutted out might will be reused in the upcoming dlc like|| pharlom bay.||

[teal sinew]

Imagine if the dlc has nothing to do with pharloom bay

[cloud zodiac]

There is a chance but the reveal trailler showed the labs too, so i am 51% of sure.
it can be explain the fast reveal time like 2026 .... questioanble quarter but if it does use thet mentioned above might will be avaiable in q2 or even earlier.

Even if not, i am still will happy.

Also there is one well hidden prof but might i am wrong if you have eagle eye, just speak t||o Alchemist Zylotol he said pretty interesting things.||

[coarse forge]

||question how were the envoys and choroistors so strong||

||like a dozen and a few of them captured and heavily wounded weavers||

||were the weavers that weak or the envoys reeds and choristors to strong?||

[muted lantern]

How many attempts did the high halls gauntlet take you? Now imagine doing that with only one life.

[coarse forge]

Yeah but still in the game theyre really tanky

[edgy nebula]

the envoys just kept coming, and hornet noted them as feeling much more calculated before she realized they were haunted

[muted lantern]

Plus the weavers caputred were only 1/8 or 1/4 weaver. Hornet is special in that shes half weaver half wyrm. a 1/8 weaver isnt probably that strong.

[viscid ridge]

Its not that they are weak, its that there was so many of them. Take in mind high halls gauntlet

[coarse forge]

No in the cradle says they were like weavers not half I am pretty sure

Ohh ok

[coarse forge]

Ok

[muted lantern]

All the cradle weavers add up to 1/2 a full weaver.

[coarse forge]

Oh

[viscid ridge]

They were quarter weavers, none of the cages in cradle say they are full weavers

[coarse forge]

Mb mb

[viscid ridge]

And one of them says that one of the weavers was old, so they were probably weaker then

[muted lantern]

it's all good, i only know this because it was on a quiz that got held on this server

[viscid ridge]

There was a quiz?

I would have dominated 🥲

[marble oasis]

One quarter and two eighths?

I thought there were two quarters

[viscid ridge]

I think like one is a 8th and 2 is 4th, while hornet is half

[muted lantern]

@lethal burrow Hosts quizzes sometimes.

[muted lantern]

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task. Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task.

[viscid ridge]

I'll be on the lookout thanks 👍

[marble oasis]

Alright

[olive fjord]

why are ther people thirsting over bugs

[cloud zodiac]

Because of Skarrsinger Carmelita.

[craggy smelt]

Have you seen these bugs?

[pearl thunder]

this community has ruined my search history

i can't search for a single character from SS or HK without seeing that kind of image

[dreamy onyx]

Do we know anything about the Putrified Ducts? Like... at all??

[ionic basalt]

Primal bilewater imo

[dreamy onyx]

I think all that's said is that they're sewers

[ionic basalt]

Might be an old way into the citadel

But the sewage went there somehow

[dreamy onyx]

I think ducts were specifically engineered to dump sewage into Bilewater

The Exhaust Organ probably didn't help

[lean temple]

It was a waste disposal system for the Citadel's pollution

[dreamy onyx]

Is it ever mentioned if the Exhaust Organ also causes pollution outside of the Mist?

[low oracle]

Doesn't the waste affect the putrified ducts, bilewater and sinners road (+mist)?

[dreamy onyx]

Well the ducts are the origin, I think it just ended up seeping into Sinner's Road and Bilewater

[low oracle]

What produces the waste anyway? The water probably comes from the thing that dried out the Sands of Karak, but does the waste come from the Underworks and/or the Cogworks?

[lean temple]

I assume just all the waste from the various systems enabling the Citadel to exist

So from the Citadel itself and likely Underworks and maybe Cogcore too

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's from the Underworks mostly

[lean temple]

Also the citadel's smog specifically is mentioned many times in Bilewater dialogue and journal entries

And it could've caused the water there to acidify

[low oracle]

I think the system is something like:
Deep Docks > Underworks / Cogwork core > Citadel
Greymoor > Whiteward
Pilgrims > Basically anything that needs bugs

[pearl thunder]

What has developed as this channel's version of the 24/7 purity discussion of hk-lore

[dreamy onyx]

Chain of command?

[ionic basalt]

Rights or progression

[low oracle]

[ > ] is supposed to be arrows pointing at where the things come from. For example, greymoor provides the silk.

[dreamy onyx]

Ohhh

Yeah checks out

[low oracle]

The underworks probably craft anything that ranges from the armor of the judges to the parts in the cogwork core. By the way, what does the exhaust organ specifically do?

[dreamy onyx]

I think it gets rid of excess silk?

[low oracle]

Isn't silk really valuable? After all, the mortician have scissors to remove the silk from bugs that "refuse to revive" before burning them.

[pearl thunder]

Yeah why would they want to get rid of silk, it is one of the most valuable substances in Pharloom

[low oracle]

I previously thought the exhaust organ powered ALL exhausts (Underworks, Citadel, etc.) but some still work after killing Phantom.

The underworks exhausts obviously release heat, but I don't see anything that explains the need for them in the Mist/Sinners road/Bilewater.

[ionic basalt]

Exhaust smog? Just the main one, the others still work automatically

[low oracle]

But for what? Like, what does it exhaust?

[ionic basalt]

Smog of production maybe

[cloud zodiac]

Is there some info about how lace and phantom are born from silk mommy, lace considered silk mommy is cruel, i search something that is explain this in a greater and deeper format, also how the weavers think about this two?

[lean temple]

She spun them entirely from Silk, but the mechanism isn't known in details afaik. Also they may have been made after the Weavers left/died as a replacement (and cuz the Weavers angered GMS by betraying her).

[unique canopy]

Morticians aren't going to be able to get all of it, so once the dregs are cremated the exhaust system carries what's left in the air to Greymoor, where the silk in the air is caught and spooled by the workers there.

[low oracle]

Silk is soul woven into thread, and soul is life (void being "negative" life). Pale beings are implied to be capable of creating soul (Pale King made the Kingmoulds), hence Grand Mother Silk (a pale being) can create infinite silk.
in conclusion, Lace and Phantom are essentially made of soul, the essence of life, and are therefore living beings.

As to Lace considering Grand Mother Silk cruel, she didn't like being an artificial lifeform. While technically immortal she needs silk to sustain herself, which she can't produce. She also interacted with Phantom, who slowly faded away in the Mist due to not receiving any silk. She also got put in an area with maggot water, which would basically eat her alive. Another thing that Lace might be mad about could be the fact she was basically a replacement for the Weavers.

The Weavers likely don't even know of them, so there isn't anything to be talked about here.

[sinful nimbus]

• Lace age discussion
• Phantom gender discussion
• Is Hornet racist? (Yes)

[low oracle]

Bug racism doesn't work. If the species and tribe is almost always the same, everyone that doesn't like their enemies is "racist".

[sinful nimbus]

...if you discriminate against your "enemies" than yeah

And to clarify Hornet is racist to the slabflies who are only her enemies because they are slaves 💀

[pearl thunder]

hornet isn't racist, she's an equal opportunity killer

[sinful nimbus]

Its not because she kills them

[low oracle]

That is not how any of this works.

[sinful nimbus]

There's literally a journal entry acknowledging that scabflies are child slaves and saying she doesn't feel bad about that

There's also a journal entry where she says the flies should stop breeding

[low oracle]

She says she doesn't feel bad about killing the slaves that imprison, kill and probably also torture "sinners".

[sinful nimbus]

"Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits no sympathy from me" and "The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better" respectively

[sinful nimbus]

Which is bad

They are forced to do that

They are also literal children

[low oracle]

The hostile pilgrims are forced to attack her too. Does that mean she also discriminates against them?

[sinful nimbus]

No because she doesn't write that she hates their guts in all of their journal entries and doesn't feel bad for them at all

Again the issue isn't that she kills slabflies in self defense its what she writes about them

[low oracle]

Not her fault when the literal mother uses them as weapons.

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension devil

[low oracle]

My point is simply that since more often than not, the bugs in HK are defined by their clan/work. She would make the same remarks if the Slab was a collection of different species of bugs born there.

(Sorry for the long time to reply, had to do something)

[sinful nimbus]

Which would still be racist

[low oracle]

Children don't matter in HK. Hornet also kills the little pilgrims and Pilgrim Hornheads, as well as the little judges (who don't attack her). There are lots more examples too.

[sinful nimbus]

She kills those in self defense

[low oracle]

Not the judges.

[sinful nimbus]

Obviously protecting sapient bugs especially children is important because they are sapient

[sinful nimbus]

Which is also messed up but at least they're haunted

[low oracle]

There are bugs and there are beasts.

[low oracle]

The judges aren't eally affected by the haunting, as their behaviour doesn't change. They still judge as they did prior.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure and you can make the argument that she wants to ensure more judges don't grow up to harm more pilgrims in the short term

This isn't comparable to her saying that the slabflies as a whole should stop breeding and that she doesn't feel bad about them and hates them entirely

That's just racist like there is no world where that's not racist

If there is a setting where that's not racist and that really is justified than the work of art is also racist

[low oracle]

My argument is simply the fact that bugs in HK aren't really different species, but mostly different factions. Therefore it is not the bugs themselves but the faction as a whole being discriminated against. If you want to see real racism, look at the scar and the mottled scar.

[sinful nimbus]

Meaningless distinction

Slabflies are a faction of slaves

[low oracle]

Not really. If the flies supported her against the citadel, are you sure she would still hate them?

[sinful nimbus]

That is irrelevant to whether or not she is racist towards them

[low oracle]

It actually isn't. It's a pretty solid argument that I want an answer for.

[sinful nimbus]

"If you changed the reason why she was racist towards them would she still be racist?"

Uh huh

[low oracle]

And to further support my point, the one fly she doesn't kill is the broodling. Killing her would cease the existence of the flies all together, yet she doesn't do it. Why? Because that is the one fly that doesn't try to kill her.

[sinful nimbus]

She writes racist things she doesn't act them out

That's possible

[low oracle]

At this point you are only making up stuff. As if she didn't kill the baby judges to stop their massacaring of pilgrims.

[sinful nimbus]

What do you mean

Can you explain how "I want this group of bugs to stop breeding" isn't racist

That's eugenics

How she acts to broodling doesn't matter if she advocates for eugenics

[low oracle]

"I want to stop these bugs from breeding, for they are only slaves in their entire life. And even though I want them to stop breeding, I do not act upon ending their species by killing their last resort. Why should they live as underpaid, underfed, imprisoned beings causing nothing but more to everything including themselves."

[sinful nimbus]

She calls them greusome in the same sentence btw

Also that's still genocide

LIke did you think about what you typed because that's very obviously gross

[low oracle]

"Self-defense"

[sinful nimbus]

"Why don't oppressed people just not breed it would solve the problem"

[pearl thunder]

“you can’t be oppressed if you don’t exist” is a fucking insane take for hornet to make

[sinful nimbus]

She wrote out that eugenics would be fine in self defense?

[low oracle]

Why do the oppressed people fight against what help they could receive? They are not oppressed, they are victims of a lie.

[pearl thunder]

are you familiar with stockholm syndrome

[sinful nimbus]

You know brainwashing is oppression right

[pearl thunder]

because something similar is occurring here

[low oracle]

No, but it isn't genocide when she has to kill them to not be killed. They trapped her, not the other way around.

[sinful nimbus]

Also they can't fight against the Citadel which is immensely more powerful than them

Let alone the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension devil strikes again

[low oracle]

But then why are you not expanding this to almost every single enemy in the game?

[sinful nimbus]

I never mentioned that she killed them as a point against her

I've clarified that I'm not talking about that multiple times previously

Stop attacking a strawman

[dire lynx]

because she doesnt wish for the extinction of any other enemy type in the game cuh

[sinful nimbus]

I do

[low oracle]

I didn't realize that if you did.

[sinful nimbus]

The difference is that Hornet doesn't write anything similar about other enemies yes

[sinful nimbus]

Then you haven't been reading my messages

[low oracle]

That is true. And I'm speculating as to why that would be, rather than simply saying "RACISM" the entire time.

[sinful nimbus]

But it is racism

The reason why is irrelevant

She writes racist things about them, you can speculate about "why" all you want

But that doesn't change what she wrote

Realistically the reason is probably Team Cherry cracking jokes about how gross they are which is ew

[low oracle]

Hypothetically, if only one single species/clan killed everyone they could, and Hornet said they shouldn't exist she is racist???

[sinful nimbus]

"Hypothetically if there was an ontologically evil group of sapient bugs" I'm going to stop you right there

What

[low oracle]

What?

[sinful nimbus]

Slabflies aren't that

[low oracle]

Never said they were.

[sinful nimbus]

And if the argument is that they are inherently evil then that's a racist thing to put in the game

[sinful nimbus]

So its irrelevant

[low oracle]

Didn't you just say that any reason can be classified as racism?

[sinful nimbus]

What

[low oracle]

In your previous message.

[sinful nimbus]

"What if the people I'm discriminating against truly are evil" isn't a compelling point lmao

[low oracle]

Not what I said.

[dire lynx]

whats this then :>

[sinful nimbus]

I mean that could be about like culture and stuff EG mantises

[low oracle]

I have no words. Do you truly not understand what I'm trying to say?

[sinful nimbus]

In which case the answer is yes ofc she's racist lmao

[low oracle]

Wait a minute, good point. Using your logic, Mantises are racist. Right?

[sinful nimbus]

No

[dire lynx]

no, they are indescriminate

what?

[low oracle]

You know, since they banish any Mantises that take up the infection.

The infection is mind control btw.

And even if they took it up willingly, that is still "discrimination" according to your statements.

[sinful nimbus]

That's not a distinct group of bugs that's people who have succumbed to the mind zombie plague

[dire lynx]

"its racist to keep diseased people away from healthy ones"

[low oracle]

Then how different is that to the silk?

[dire lynx]

?

[low oracle]

But they are the oppressed. Doesn't that mean they are innocent? Like the flies?

?

[sinful nimbus]

They are not oppressed in the same ways as the flies... obviously

They did a bad thing of their own volition and got cast out the flies aren't doing any bad things of their own volition

[low oracle]

They are said to have committed a crime against the citadel, which resulted in their slavery as punishment.

That was pre-haunting. Likely by the same people who imprisoned First Sinner, which are speculated to be the weavers.

[dire lynx]

the same citadel that cast first sinner in a box because she said the weavers werent divine btw

[sinful nimbus]

... their ancestors did

[dire lynx]

and mutilated widow for supporting gms

[sinful nimbus]

You can't punish someones descendants for a crime they didn't commit

And yes the Citadel is evil and messed up that's the entire point of the slab

[low oracle]

Is it proven that this was the reason? Cause I quite fondly remember the line "a transgression lost in time" or so.

[low oracle]

Still only speculative.

[dire lynx]

the crime itself was probably bullshit, and you cant punish people for something their parents did

[low oracle]

Exactly

[sinful nimbus]

Its said she was imprisoned for apostasy and the fight is ended with revealing how the weavers were made and FS saying they weren't divine

[low oracle]

GMS didn't imprison her, as she would've probably done something completely different than simply locking her away. Widow is a GMS fanatic (implied to be), hence the other weavers likely punished her by removing her mask.

[sinful nimbus]

GMS didn't imprison her yes it was the weavers

Who ran the Citadel

[low oracle]

@dire lynx Can you please contribute with more than emojis? Doesn't really progress the discussion.

[dire lynx]

do you really want me to say "i agree with that," or "this" every time star says something i agree with

[low oracle]

Hence the weavers were the ones who punished the flies. After GMS took over, did she take over command? Because Hornet isn't imprisoned for being a weaver (1/2). She is imprisoned for being a sinner that made it past the judges.

[dire lynx]

nobody disagrees that the weavers were the ones who enslaved the flies

[low oracle]

Good.

[dire lynx]

and what does any of that have to do with the fact that hornet wants them specifically extinct

[low oracle]

I didn't watch Mossbag, so I can also only go off of the lore I myself understood from my own perspective.

[low oracle]

I want to understand and progress. A debate shouldn't be about who is right and who is wrong. It should be about the facts and truth at hand. Maybe we just need to ask Team Cherry personally if Hornet is racist.

[dense sphinx]

I heard someone say the Green Prince and his lover are twins because of the conjoined heart

[low oracle]

Not twins, just born on the same day.

[dire lynx]

this is incorrect

[low oracle]

They are "born apart".

[dense sphinx]

They are lovers aren’t they?

[low oracle]

Yes.

[dire lynx]

Two children born entwined, apart,
Two children marked to rule,

[dense sphinx]

Who is the other cogwork dancer tho?

[low oracle]

The lover was divided into both.

[dire lynx]

the soul of green princes lover was split between the two bodies

Two cogwork bugs, and yet the soul seemed singular? A sad, yet masterful imitation of life, imbued inside shells of iron.

[dense sphinx]

Can you parry a parry?

[dire lynx]

idk

never used cross stitch

[low oracle]

One likely had some form of priority over the other, as one breaks first and only one is brought home by the green prince.

[low oracle]

No? That is like two shields getting held in front of each other.

[low oracle]

Unless you parry a parry-counter, which is parried by another parry.

[hasty flint]

NEW MOSSBAG

https://youtu.be/-Xr__GKtQ4s?si=rlTti7737k--W3o9

[stray fog]

Wait the new mossbag video has a convincing explanation of the hk shaman saying that his family has never been to the abyss

Its because the pale king locked it up

[edgy river]

Tbf there is some evidence for it just not conclusive

They "share the throne" and the "right to rule" which would make sense if they were twins, since it's usually the older child who has the right to rule

Currently we understand it as it being so because they are lovers but the dialogue implies this has been the case since they are little which would be strange

Also in some other languages it's stated they are twins, tho it's not cannon

[heavy gyro]

Mossbags video says that bugs gaining sapience outside of hallownest is a retcon

Which is just stupid

[unique canopy]

The concept of a diarchy (co-rule by two individuals) has been a thing since antiquity. In the present day, the most notable example is Andorra, which is ruled by two princes. And lord knows with fictional bugs you can make up whatever goofy lineage rules you want for your fictional bug kingdom

[edgy river]

One time this conversation was brought up and a guy decided to ask the Portuguese translators why they put in that they are twins and the translator responded that team Cherry specifically told them so. Even if it's true, it doesn't mean it's cannon because TC telling people somethings isn't really confirmed until it's put into the game itself, but it brings attention to it I guess

[unique canopy]

Mossbag is contradicted literally two minutes into Hollow Knight where Elderbug explains that bugs from outside Hallownest have flocked to it because it's been known for a while as a lost kingdom full of treasures to plunder. This wouldn't make sense if there were no sapient bugs outside Hallownest

[heavy gyro]

Yeah he mentions that too, idk why he even included that in the video in the first place

[unique canopy]

Used to be there was a great kingdom beneath our town. It's long fell to ruin, yet it still draws folks into its depths.
Wealth, glory, enlightenment, that darkness seems to promise all things. I'm sure you too seek your dreams down there.

Many used to come, hoping the kingdom would fulfill their desires.
Hallownest, it was once called. Supposedly the greatest kingdom there ever was, full of treasures and secrets.

[edgy river]

If anyone wants the conversation, here it is.

"In the original script of the game there is no mention of them being twins, but we (him and the other translator) were confused about it so we decided to ask the creators (of the game) what was their intent. They responded that yes, they are twins, and they were condemned by their love to each other."

[wintry compass]

gay incest bugs...???!??

[edgy river]

Imo it doesn't really change much of the lore on the green prince but ig it adds a reason for them to be condemned by the citadel other than just being from verdania?

[wintry compass]

with hornet's hatred of the flies, I don't think she hates the race so much as she hates the prison and its jailers? like they may be prisoners themselves, but they were also well doing fucked up things
wishing for their extinction's a bit extreme still yeah...

[edgy river]

I thought it was clear that the "he gave us intelligence" was a play from PK to be seen as a god

Just like the weavers lied that they were gods

[wintry compass]

that's interesting

[lean temple]

Eh? GMS can give intelligence as well. I don't see why it would be a lie. It is possible for Pale Beings to give sapience.

[wintry compass]

I just thought that there could be other ways of gaining intelligence, but it being propaganda makes as much sense

[lean temple]

Well shit

[wintry compass]

there were intelligent beings in pharloom before GMS though

[lean temple]

Sure

[unique canopy]

Honestly I'm fine just pulling an Undertale and going "wait, they're bugs, that's normal for them"

[wintry compass]

same lol

[lean temple]

So what? Pale Beings are one way for sapience to be had.

[wintry compass]

that's what I thought too

but I guess it being propaganda is not a wrong interpretation either?

[edgy river]

There were intelligent beings in Hallownest before PK as well

[lean temple]

So?

[stray fog]

.

[lean temple]

Shamans have been around since before PK

(Presumably)

[stray fog]

What's the reason behind this assumption

[edgy river]

I don't think he CANT add sapience to bugs but he isn't the only source of it

[lean temple]

The full grave of them and all the skulls ancestral shaman keep. It's implied they have a long history

[lean temple]

We agree then

[wintry compass]

yeah, and the PK exaggerated his ability as something very godly

or unique

[edgy river]

The idea that inteligent life was exclusive to Hallownest was OBVIOUSLY propaganda. As was the idea of Hallownest being the last remaining kingdom

[lean temple]

Well, it is. Only gods can do it

[heavy gyro]

Didn't monomon create sentient life

[lean temple]

Good point. They are intelligent tho they aren't "people" yknow

[edgy river]

Idk I have to disagree with mossbag on that one, I think even in HK we knew those things were not true and I don't think Silksong retconned that

[stray fog]

Still, the mossbag explanation is the most believable one, and we no idea of the timeframe between the vessels being born and hk taking place

[heavy gyro]

I like the explanation that the snails used void without ever going to the abyss

[lean temple]

Yeah I'm not one to take mossbag for granted

[spark valve]

in hk snails didn't even use void, in silksong they still don't really they're just interested in it

[lean temple]

And in HK they didn't even know what it is. Kinda different from just not using it

[simple iron]

doesn't the knight get 2 void spell upgrades form dead snail shamans?

[edgy river]

I think if they were actually condemned by it, wasn't normal for the citadel bugs at least

[spark valve]

the void comes from it

[lean temple]

That's using their power as a catalyst. The Void is the Knight's own void

[spark valve]

the snail shaman explains how it works and even says it's 'unique' for the knight to modify its spells in such a way

[simple iron]

ah alr nvm then

[edgy river]

Tbf you acquired void abilities from them

In crystal peak

[lean temple]

Refer to the above messages

[stray fog]

Doesnt the shaman call the knight "empty" or something
I think he knows about vessels and void, but he has never used it in spellls and stuff

[lean temple]

Don't remember that. I'll check

[spark valve]

it's describing the knight's expression

[stray fog]

"Empty face"

[spark valve]

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.
anyways

[stray fog]

Yeah I think saying "you're looking grim! Strange empty face" is about their expression

[lean temple]

He also calls it "little shadow" which is interesting

"Oho! What brings you back through here, little shadow? Are you lost?
Don't worry about me. I don't need anything more from you. Ohohoho!"

[stray fog]

It makes sense given how knowledgeable shamans are

[heavy gyro]

That seems to be more about the abyss and the technique

Than void specifically

[spark valve]

void is the substance of the abyss

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but they can summon void without going to the abyss

[spark valve]

'it's not a place my kind ever thought to look' is pretty unambiguous that they did not in fact use something originating from there

[lean temple]

He doesn't recognise the power of void at all

[unique canopy]

He says that specifically for Shade Soul, but for both Desolate Dive and Descending Dark he remarks that both separate powers come from two separate family members, which wouldn't make sense if Descending Dark was only something that the Knight transformed. It is very meaningful that Descending Dark is contrasted this way from both Shade Soul and Abyss Shriek.

[spark valve]

it does make sense if ddark was something the knight transformed

because it would be redundant to explain the process again and it's establishing his connection to the peaks shaman

[lean temple]

Maybe TC should just revamp his dialogue

[heavy gyro]

The abyss is a place that the snails never thought to look for techniques of melding spells

[stray fog]

Shade soul's precursor was from the man himself, but the precursor to those other spells were different family members. That might be why he talks about his family

[spark valve]

for ddark the powerful source was the fourth aunt

desolate dive is the actual spell the uncle used

[unique canopy]

This makes sense for Desolate Dive, but it doesn't make sense for Descending Dark, from a completely separate family member.

[stray fog]

I wish they would update dialogues and stuff in hk. Thats my only problem with retcons. Just tell us if things are a retcon or not

[spark valve]

the knight devoured her soul to transform the spell he senses some echo of her on it

[unique canopy]

If he only mentioned his family for Dive but not Dark it would make sense, but there's no reason to mention another separate family member just for Dark

[spark valve]

yes there is

[edgy nebula]

holy shit mossbag made a video about retcons this is amazing

[heavy gyro]

Hk refreshed 🔥

[frigid belfry]

Some of it is questionable lmao

[stray fog]

Yep

[lean temple]

Their philosophy of not confirming things is interesting but it does lead to endless discussion over things which are just too vague or conflicting.

[stray fog]

I don't think they'll do it there, but I hope they do

[stray grove]

It’s a good video too

People are allergic to acknowledging SS has retcons for some reason so I hope this shifts their perspective a bit

[stray fog]

I like that style of lore, but confirmation should be an option if you had a significant change of plans between the games

[spark valve]

they're different games they don't have to be consistent

[stray fog]

They're in the same universe

[spark valve]

doesn't really matter that much

[bleak ridge]

Silksong is a direct sequel what are you talking about 🌾

[foggy fractal]

all roads lead back to retcon discussion

[stray fog]

Are you joking or fr

[frigid belfry]

Kind of does

[spark valve]

they can change things in subsequent entries

[stray fog]

Rabbit with a clock gif

[edgy nebula]

im so glad the road that leads to lace age discussion was demolished

[spark valve]

if only that were true

[stray fog]

Its much less frequent now

Thankfully

[lean temple]

At least acknowledge it and let people know what was changed. They refuse to give confirming statements on lore which leaves a lot of vagueness.

[spark valve]

that's not an inherently bad thing if it's easier to just change shit and move on

[lean temple]

Not saying it's bad to change. Just make it clear that you did

[stray grove]

SS fans be saying the most lmao

[bleak ridge]

Changing things isn't bad, inconsistent lore without any explanation IS a bad thing

[stray grove]

The devs don’t have to announce every single thing they change maybe if the fans were literate they’d have realized most of that themselves

Most of the SS retcons are minor

[spark valve]

inconsistency being bad in a vacuum doesn't mean it's always a bad choice

[stray fog]

"yeah guys we changed herrah to be a weaver, you can stop worrying about why she looks different" would be good

[bleak ridge]

Herrah being a weaver is super minor

[spark valve]

they did say that in the game

[stray grove]

Lmao you people need to be spoonfed every little thing

[spark valve]

by changing her to be a weaver and changing her body to be a weaver's

[bleak ridge]

Or the shamans suddenly being obsessed with void

[stray fog]

That one is still explainable imo

[stray grove]

Explicitly calling her a Weaver and redesigning her wasn’t enough for you you also needed explicit confirmation from the developers directly

What a joke

[stray fog]

The pale king locked up the abyss, so the shamans couldn't get their hands on void

[heavy gyro]

It is pretty inconsequential to the story of the original game

[bleak ridge]

Explainable with theories, it's still very ambiguous because the shamans are really weird with their wording

[heavy gyro]

Whether herrah is a weaver or not doesn't even matter in the context of hk

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/the-incredibles-syndrome-buddy-pine-discord-reddit-gif-1954320315783291994

[spark valve]

"it's not a place my kind ever thought to look."
is inconsistent with
"We wanted to but we couldn't"

[stray fog]

This u

[stray grove]

You win ggs

Hopefully TC will see and respond to this message

[foggy fractal]

hey guys tc here

[bleak ridge]

It still makes a certain lore tablet calling herrah a "common beast" very strange

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but that's a lore tablet that barely affects anything in hk

[stray grove]

It’s a retcon

[stray fog]

Hello tc when are you going to release silksong

The release window is almost over

[foggy fractal]

2

[stray grove]

They wanted Hornet to be part Weaver so they made Herrah into one

[stray fog]

2

[stray grove]

That isn’t an arbitrary choice

[bleak ridge]

Minor retcon right

[stray grove]

That it’s inconsistent with incredibly minor lore from the first game is almost meaningless who cares

[heavy gyro]

When is silksong 2 coming out

[lethal burrow]

I am never doing another one coming up with 20 more unique questions that can't be answered by a simple Google search is a nightmare lmao

[bleak ridge]

I suppose so, we didn't really get any new info on deepnest in SK anyways

[stray fog]

Can you send me a link to the quiz

[foggy fractal]

2

[bleak ridge]

When is Zoteboat coming out

[foggy fractal]

3

[bleak ridge]

Makes sense

[stray fog]

Who is the lifeblood dude in the abyss

[foggy fractal]

me, team cherry

[bleak ridge]

John Cherry is the abyss creature??

[stray fog]

🤯

[unique canopy]

With Silksong in mind, it gets turned into one hell of an insult. The divine children of Pharloom, nothing more than common beasts with delusions of grandeur when next to all the higher beings of Hallownest

[solar tapir]

Everyone in this channel cares actually. Herrah retcon could be minor If we didn't have an entire game dedicated to the history of weavers

Although im okay with that kind of retcons. Almost all of them can be answered or interestingly theorized

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah Weaver is the only good retcon

[lethal burrow]

The purpose of the quiz was pretty much either to troll people or to share cool trivia I thought not enough people knew.

If you look hard enough, you can tell which question fits into which of the two categories

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PLECHTYSpDg9FqCDNq1aNjWSFd-YSsHm5aYfATfogfo/edit?usp=drivesdk

Also, I pretty much just made this now, before hand It was not in a Google doc but you know you wanted a link so whatever.

[stray grove]

I don’t like it but it’s inconsequential

[low oracle]

What's a "recton", specifically what is "Herra recton"?

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah's species got changed from regular bum spider to weaver

[foggy fractal]

noooo do not desrespect her.

she was NOT a bum.

😠

[edgy nebula]

for a lore youtuber mossbag’s comment section is full of people who cant read

[vast mango]

[low oracle]

I've seen some pretty reasonable speculation that Herrah was an ascended (giant) Drapemite, rather than an ascended Pharlid like the rest of the Weavers (or at least most of them).
The first indicator would be the similar slash attack of the Pharlid and Drapemite. What makes this theory so convincing however is the comparison of a regular Weaver's body to a Pharlid, and Herrah's body to a (giant) Drapemite. While the Weaver is completely black, Herrah has the same body as the Drapemite (hard to describe it).
Another addition to support the claim is, how Herrah is always referred to as a "Beast", contrary to other Weavers.

It would be best to look up some pictures for comparison, but I don't really want to send six or so pictures in this chat (idk if that would count as spam).

[lethal burrow]

harrah retcon discussion is nothing compared to little Weaver discussion

[low oracle]

I got this theory from a reddit post, so look it up if you want pictures for comparison.

[spark valve]

silksong straight up changes herrah's body to be compatible with a normal weaver's body shape

[low oracle]

Weaverlings are probably just silk runes.

[hushed viper]

So the name Hornet was given to cuz she was trained by Vespa, but what was her name before that

[blissful harbor]

little weavers are actually just deep hunters dressed up as weavers and not weaver babies

[low oracle]

Are you sure? I didn't notice anything because Herrah was so blurry in red memory.

[blissful harbor]

her body is much smaller than in Hk

[low oracle]

Vespa named her? Are you asking what her name was before she got named?

[low oracle]

OKAY WTF???

[blissful harbor]

that ass is not fitting in there

[low oracle]

I didn't see it was THAT different.

[low oracle]

Maybe she was not fully developed....?

[lethal burrow]

Relevant material perhaps I don't know

[blissful harbor]

eh, i like to think it was some kind of hibernation thing from being a dreamer

like how godseeker grew when she hibernated

[foggy fractal]

Hello, i'm first sinner and i have 8 legs.

🔥

[solar tapir]

or the consequences of Hornet's birth

[low oracle]

Internet Comparisons

Goddammit Team Cherry, why did you have to ruin the most believable theory that would fix a massive plothole!

[spark valve]

that's not what herrah looks like anymore as of silksong plus if that was the case there would be something about it in the drapemite entries, but instead hornet identifies the origins of her techniques in pharlids

because she's descended from pharlids

[low oracle]

That is not how consequences of birth look like.

[solar tapir]

And we are really know HOW they look like?

[low oracle]

It's a theory. Besides that, drapemites have incredibly similar attacks to pharlids.

[solar tapir]

For the weavers

It is theory after all

[spark valve]

but hornet specifically identifies an underlying similarity with pharlids

[low oracle]

Please rewrite this.

[low oracle]

Yes, and the Beast Crest charge attack is the same as Widows/First Sinners slash attacks.

[blissful harbor]

is it

[solar tapir]

We don't actually know how weavers give birth.

and consequences of this

so they can look like that

plus dreamer thing

[low oracle]

Well we know that they don't simply spawn little baby weavers by equipping a certain charm.

[spark valve]

if hornet was around herrah already gave birth

so birth didn't do anything

[low oracle]

Well, dreamer thing is irrelevant.

[solar tapir]

the question was why Herrah look so big

[low oracle]

Good point!

[blissful harbor]

it was hibernation chat!!!

the real answer is she wasn’t planned to be a weaver

[edgy nebula]

it’s really just a retcon, im sure tc will eventually confirm something but for now we’re cooked

[low oracle]

The most reasonable theory would be that she ascended from drapemites, but only became more like them after an unknown event or period of time.

[solar tapir]

the consequences might not appear immediately

[blissful harbor]

but i still think this is the best answer imo until we have more info
which is gonna be never

precedent is already set with godseeker

[low oracle]

Then give a better answer.

[solar tapir]

I already did. Birth consequences appearing not immediately. Or it can be anything really but it hardly an answer

[lethal burrow]

why did harrah lose 2 legs

[blissful harbor]

limb consistency is not TC’s strong suit

look at some of first sinners sprites it’s funny

[lethal burrow]

first sinner's body is all black. It's easy to conclude that the other limbs are just sort of hidden in the general stuff going on there.

they're not disappearing they're just sort of overlapping in a way that the two dimensional game cannot show

It is a 3-D world though

[blissful harbor]

she has six legs in the intro, turns to 4 with no arms
then 4 arms and 4 legs

theres no hiding the fact that 6 legs became 4, they simply disappeared

[lethal burrow]

just cause it's not visible at the moment doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we know it does exist because we've seen it

[blissful harbor]

she is literally only shown with 6 in the intro and no other sprite
like wdym

[edgy nebula]

designs are inconsistent through weavers, crust king khann, and prolly more

oh, giant drapemites too

[blissful harbor]

it’s not in the moment, it’s just an inconsistency

[low oracle]

How about this:
Herrah was ascended from a Drapemite rather than a Pharlid. However under GMS's rule, her body was (mostly) the same as other weavers due to GMS wanting her children to fit her image (idk guys). After the weavers rebellion and migration to Hallownest, Herrah slowly took on the form of her true nature.

[edgy nebula]

in some sprites they have 6 legs

[low oracle]

@lethal burrow

[solar tapir]

you really like drapemites arent you

[lethal burrow]

I didn't see the third image

[blissful harbor]

not to mention all other weaves are shown with 4 legs
not sinner though
she had to aura farm and gain new legs

[lethal burrow]

Are you not taking in what I'm saying cognitively

[blissful harbor]

explain yourself better then, cause it’s not just being “hidden”

idk why you can’t accept that TC are bad with limbs this has been a thing since first game

[lethal burrow]

1. Weaver body and limbs are all black
2. The world of silk song is a three-dimensional world.
3. The game of silk song is a two dimensional game.

It's more than plausible that the weaver limbs could be overlapping on an access can't easily perceive

[lethal burrow]

Putting words in my mouth is not a good look

[low oracle]

No, I hate them (as enemies). Team Cherry really had to give EVERYTHING double damage, even the guys that are literal flowers. Anyway, I like having explanations, and this seems to be the best one.

[blissful harbor]

literally what you are doing but ok

anyways why do we never see another weaver with 6 legs the , like first sinners
if it’s apparently something they all share thst is hidden

you’d think it would show up in other sprites

[low oracle]

Explanation.

[blissful harbor]

i’m talking about the legs

[lethal burrow]

I don't think anything anyone can possibly say is capable of changing such a unmalleable mind as yours is in this moment

[blissful harbor]

i know she has no arms

[blissful harbor]

are you capable of having a discussion without insulting someone?

me thinks no

[lethal burrow]

You did the same to me as far as I'm concerned so it's only a problem as long as it's someone else?

ok

[blissful harbor]

how did i insult you exactly

what did i say

[low oracle]

Hornet also need four extra legs to do the weaver crawl, as her half-weaver part only left her with four. So Weavers have eight limbs.

[blissful harbor]

that was directed towards you personally

[blissful harbor]

wym, she gets down on all fours
idk what makes you think she grows legs

if you dash in the air it’s easier to see, but she skitters on all fours

[low oracle]

I'm talking about the scuttlebrace giving hornet extra legs, allowing her to do the weaver scuttle, even though she is only 1/2 Weaver.

[blissful harbor]

yea i’m saying she gets down on all fours to do the scuttle, it doesn’t give her extra legs

[solar tapir]

So... Why then First Sinner did not like... Spread out her arms during the fight?

Aura farming?

[blissful harbor]

aura farming

[low oracle]

How this have any relevance?

It doesn't give extra limbs, but my point still stands. Weavers have eight limbs.

[plain gazelle]

i've been thinking that the crossed arms pose for first sinner specifically is supposed to evoke a straightjacket, given she's a prisoner sentenced to "constriction"

[blissful harbor]

yuh i agree

but even then
that still puts first sinner out the range lmao
opening shows six legs, and she can produce 4 arms

[solar tapir]

Well, from what i understand from this pic is that FS has arms but didnt use them in fight

[blissful harbor]

i’m no mathematician

butttt

[solar tapir]

and question is... Why?

[blissful harbor]

she does use her arms in the fight

she claws at us like widow

[blissful harbor]

she just keeps them folded..tucked whatever

[low oracle]

I think the crossed arms are a trait of GMS.

Also eight arms.

[solar tapir]

And still fight with them lol

kinda funny

Aura farming

[low oracle]

Is google correct guys?

[low oracle]

Do you think you can see First Sinner's face from above her mask?

[silk dirge]

HE MADE A VIDEO ON IT LMAO https://youtu.be/-Xr__GKtQ4s?si=nrhBp4TGUgEtYkns

[cedar skiff]

oh my god

[foggy fractal]

lmao.

[silk dirge]

this channel is cooked 😭

[cedar skiff]

who is excited for the productive discussions loading here

[solar tapir]

Sry dont understand the question

[cedar skiff]

LMAO

[low oracle]

We need a video of him explaining if Mossmother is his mother and massive moss charger his father.

[plain gazelle]

i assumed that video was why people were talking about herrah again in the first place

[quartz flicker]

This is my take on the idea that Silksong retconned the lore around Vespa & The Hive:

I think it's plausible that Vespa thought it prudent to make Hornet specifically an ally, as that would reduce the likelihood of the Pale King meddling in the affairs of the Hive.

It seems like the Pale King allowed Herah and the Weavers to act as Hornet's parents and guardians, so Hornet learning how to fight with a blade may have been her own choice. If that's true, then she might have gone to Vespa herself to seek training, and the two became friends.

Hornet choosing to watch over the corpse of Hallownest may have also been something she chose to do entirely of her own volition. It doesn't seem like Hornet was part of the Pale King's plans to deal with the Radiance outside of convincing Herah and the Weavers to assist him. The Pale King might have even thought Hornet was creepy due to being half-weaver.

[low oracle]

Like, since the mask is open at the top, can you see her face from above?

[cedar skiff]

honestly i knew this was coming after his big lore video but i was hoping hed talk abt a crack theory

[solar tapir]

I didnt even see it yet

[solar tapir]

Well, u can see her head but face?

[low oracle]

Is she bald?

[wise sand]

Fs has 8

Theres one sprite where there's 8 visible iirc

Hold on

[blissful harbor]

if you mean her jumping sprite, those are arms

[solar tapir]

I dunno lol

[low oracle]

@blissful harbor

[wise sand]

This i think

[blissful harbor]

arms

as you can see they don’t connect to the pelvis lmao

[blissful harbor]

i saw

[wise sand]

I meant 8 limbs

[ornate pier]

Yo i just scrolled up and looked at older messages and is verdania incest seriously canon wtf

[low oracle]

Arms, legs, what's the difference. They all taste the same!

[wise sand]

No

[ornate pier]

The screenshot with the translator

Hoping its fake cuz then the whole subplot is just weird

[wise sand]

I don't think she has 8 legs but she definitely has 8 limbs

[low oracle]

BORN APART!!! Can these people not read the lore?

[ornate pier]

No like theres a supposed screenshot from a convo with a translator

Where he says they asked tc and they said they were twins that were condemned for being in an incestuous relaitonship

[blissful harbor]

where was this said

[sinful nimbus]

Translator doesn't really matter when the english version says they aren't twins

[blissful harbor]

and also i reject it

[wise sand]

Nah

[spark valve]

it could be a fake, or the translator could've misunderstood, etc

[low oracle]

Lore says they are born on the same day, apart, which stands for bad luck.

[ornate pier]

Yeah translations still have other weird discrepancies but let me pull it up

[wise sand]

Also ignoring the other stuff, her segmentation is kinda different to the drapemites

[ornate pier]

This is the screenshot apparently

[low oracle]

Her body is kinda different to literally any other weaver we see.

[ornate pier]

It doesn't line up with the english version at all so i have my doubts

[quartz flicker]

The simplest explanation is that Herrah just looks like that because she's the only Weaver we've seen who has had a child after getting preggo

[ornate pier]

"Dual princes" being used instead of twins and "born apart"

[low oracle]

We see her like that after birth too.

[wise sand]

Or she wasn't originally meant to be a weaver/wanted her to stand out from the other spiders in deepnest

[edgy river]

People still talking about the green prince thing noooo

[stray fog]

Thats the point

[solar tapir]

My words excatly

[ornate pier]

It caught me offguard

[blissful harbor]

when hornet is little next to her in red memory, she’s still small

herrah is

[spark valve]

her design in silksong is straight up changed to not be as different from weavers it ain't that deep it's just a retcon

[ornate pier]

Im assuming it doesnt mean anything unless we get direct comments from tc

[wise sand]

Shes skinnier tho

In the red memory

[ornate pier]

Also i don't think it lines up with what is said in the english version

[low oracle]

Huh? I am saying that we see non-big butt herrah with Hornet in the same room.

[edgy river]

I mean I'd say even if TC says something it isn't cannon until it's in a licensed material (game, book, etc)

Even if they said it

[wise sand]

Dreamer thing idk

[edgy river]

They could change their minds

[low oracle]

Maybe her butt was just the friends we made along the way.

[ornate pier]

I disagree with this, but i think the info has to be directly from tc

[solar tapir]

that "inflation" could come later

with time

[stray fog]

My bad I misread your message

The pregnancy fat isn't necessarily reversible ig

[quartz flicker]

Think of her like a hibernating bear. She ate a lot before going to sleep.

[ornate pier]

It's not like they can't change their minds ingame, they did it with traitor lord's gender

[blissful harbor]

ive been saying this

well not that she ate

[low oracle]

She had to get the Pale King's attention somehow.

[wise sand]

Her being a drapemite is the least likely option

[blissful harbor]

ehhhh

[ornate pier]

Yeah i don't buy drapemite herrah at all

[blissful harbor]

i like it, it explains where the hell her horns came from

[low oracle]

So she got fat after hornet was born when she was still thin???

[quartz flicker]

Like, if I thought I was about to enter an eternal slumber, I would certainly eat a lot cause it would be my last chance.

[stray fog]

Its one of those theories that is the coolest explanation, but also the least likely explanation

[edgy river]

And it's not like they being twins change much. I think it's kinda interesting if they really were condemned by it but other than that it's just useless information

The born apart thing is weird, and it points to them not being twins

[spark valve]

if she was made from a drapemite they wouldn't have changed her design in silksong to be less like that, plus they would have the journal entry say something about it, plus they would probably have other weavers with that body type

[edgy river]

So yeah

[low oracle]

But the colour change also matters.

[edgy river]

It's non-conclusive

[ornate pier]

Which is also why i doubt this screenshot

[wise sand]

She could've just as easily got them by being a pharlid originally

Oh wrong comment mb

[edgy river]

About the translator, please no hate to the guy he just answered a question another guy had

[ornate pier]

Translations also still have other discrepancies like changing lumble's gender for some reason, they're still not fully reliable

[wise sand]

This one

[quartz flicker]

you mean her garb, or something else?

[ornate pier]

Yeah im not tyring to attack the guy

[blissful harbor]

we see pharlid weavers

none of them have horns

[spark valve]

except the one that does

[blissful harbor]

even widow
which L TC, perfect chance to give her horns

[edgy river]

He might have misunderstood as well, from what ik translation of these games seems stressful, tons of dialogue to do

[low oracle]

No, the fact that Pharlids aren't the colour of her arse.

[blissful harbor]

which makes me wonder why

maybe it’s a sign of like

[ornate pier]

If they get fat, then maybe they will be?

[blissful harbor]

leadership

[edgy river]

Oh I'm not talking about u, I'm just talking to everyone who reads this because this is a public server and I don't want people harassing the guy because of it

[blissful harbor]

she’s the queen so she gets horns?

[ornate pier]

Wait bruh

They have a grey body

[wise sand]

#sk-lore message

[stray fog]

🤔

[solar tapir]

Sign of aura

[blissful harbor]

or maybe she carved her weaver mask that way as a way to distance herself

[low oracle]

Nevermind I'm wrong.

[wise sand]

Also the pharlid head had horns

[blissful harbor]

i’m aware

[spark valve]

nor are drapemites

[low oracle]

I only look at their stupid masks when I kill them.

[quartz flicker]

Nah, it's genetic since Hornet has it too

[blissful harbor]

which we actively see deformed into a sphere

[wise sand]

Gms clearly just got rid of them when forming the weavers heads for some reason

[stray fog]

They'd have to cut her head open or something

[wise sand]

Its not like she had to

[solar tapir]

this sounds interesting by the way

[stray fog]

The first sinner has the same jagged head shape

[low oracle]

Masks are both genetic and non-genetic in Hollow Knight, so that is a discussion for another day.

[wise sand]

She couldve done the same thing to drapemite assuming she could transfigure one into a weaver

[edgy river]

It's important to say tho, multiple languages have "twins" in their description. Which gives some weight to the translators authenticity

I only really can atest to Brazilian Portuguese since it's a language I know but I hear from someone in Chinese they talk about them being twins as well, so it might be that multiple translators received this a note

Of other people can check, it's a huge help

[low oracle]

That would be her mutilating/deforming her own head.

[blissful harbor]

yes

[stray fog]

I cant play sk rn, so is there a place that has all the text

[wise sand]

Wiki

[low oracle]

That'S what I've been saying this whole time!

[quartz flicker]

Remember that Herah got preggo with the child of a Wyrm. Not shocking that would have effects on her body.

[stray fog]

In other languages as well?

[low oracle]

The wiki.

[wise sand]

Oh idk

[blissful harbor]

you can translate pages cant you?

[edgy river]

Oh true her body kind looks like a wyrm format kinda

[low oracle]

We see baby hornet and non-fatass Herrah in red memory in the same room.

[edgy river]

Maybe it was the baby wyrm?

[stray fog]

I need to see the translations made by the official translators

[blissful harbor]

ahh i gotcha

[quartz flicker]

rude

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think there’s an easy way to access that

without just changing the language of your game

[low oracle]

She had to get the pale king somehow. Maybe Herrah just knows the strategy to getting a wyrm-child. (/s)

Alright, gotta go now. Been fun discussing Herrah's big butt's origin story. Bye!

[gloomy wadi]

Am I crazy for thinking herrahs body isn't exactly the most important piece of lore to analyze

[low oracle]

Yes

[wise sand]

No

[blissful harbor]

if people want to discuss something why does it matter if it’s important

not like theres some big lore discussion it’s taking way from

[sinful nimbus]

Lets switch over to something productive who wants to talk about Gilly Gurr

[cedar skiff]

hello

i will talk about gilly gurr

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[blissful harbor]

some things are infact not important

i stand corrected

[cedar skiff]

herrah body discourse is like a dead end because it always comes up and nobody reaches a new productive consensus

[gloomy wadi]

No you're right I was just saying

[cedar skiff]

its silly

[wise sand]

Drapemite believers are BLIND

Actually I'm fine discussing it purely because I hate how popular the theory is

[quartz flicker]

what about this. am I onto something?

[solar tapir]

I see this more like sharing theories which is this channel for, no?

[cedar skiff]

honestly ive just begun embracing the idea that its a product of aris art evolving much like many of silksongs aspects looking so weird when compared to hk

[quartz flicker]

Did the Pale King think Hornet was kind of creepy?

[wise sand]

Idk maybe

Theres not really anything that can be said for of against it i don't think

[cedar skiff]

i mean yeah but some discussions are certainly on the sillier end. especially those regarding visual comparisons to the previous game

ain’t nobody stopping the herrah drapemite believers though

i love a good crack theory

[gloomy wadi]

Honestly the lack of interaction between the two is a very interesting subject to me, we don't get a lot of info about their relationship other than that hornet doesn't like him
Maybe? He doesn't seem like the most loving father to me who knows

[cedar skiff]

a lot of silksong leads into hornet adopting more of her fathers traits compared to the “more weaver than wyrm” ones instilled into her from birth

[muted lantern]

Thoughts on mossbags new video?

[wise sand]

Good

[cedar skiff]

embracing the weaver heritage fully does that ending to the game so yeah

[sinful nimbus]

retcon discussion ❤️‍🩹

[quartz flicker]

Maybe when Herah gave her conditions to the Pale King and refused to budge, he was like "... damn it, I'm out of options here. Let's get this over with."

[cedar skiff]

i agree with most of the points except on the snail shamans

but like

its a pretty objective video

[solar tapir]

I can't even start watching, i lost in this channel instead

[cedar skiff]

just a compilation of what falls under the retcon umbrella

[plain gazelle]

pretty clickbaity considering how many people are primed to have negative connotations to the word "retcon" when all he's talking about is like, minor visual discrepancies and strange implications of one-off lines of dialogue

[quartz flicker]

Or the Pale King just gave her a vial with his dna in it.

[foggy fractal]

world is healing !

[sinful nimbus]

Shoulda mentioned Cindril smh

[cedar skiff]

theres interesting discussion to come about how some retcons affect the writing in an overall sense but most of the retcons are beneficial to silksongs narrative and dont change much about how you see hks narrative so to me its not a big deal

[sinful nimbus]

beneficial 💔

[cedar skiff]

i mean

they could always have wrote silksong to not be about hornet being a weaver but the weaver shit does certainly make it effective

[plain gazelle]

the thing is mossbag is including the technical definition of retcon to basically just make a video about everything in silksong that adds lore to hollow knight in any way

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah Weaver is the one good retcon

Everything else is awful

[quartz flicker]

Hornet has always been good with silk

[cedar skiff]

the hive didnt have much going on to begin with

[edgy river]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/s/zbTESkoNp0

Seems like we aren't the first to investigate this. If true this is either an enormous error in all translations or TC contradicted themselves or were really vague in a note to them?

[sinful nimbus]

They still don't really

[muted lantern]

I still tend to disagree with void heart being a retcon, I always assumed the tendrils and the seeking of soul through haunted threads were just involuntary actions like the voids digestive system.

[quartz flicker]

literally what is awful

[cedar skiff]

yeah thats why i dont mind the vespa stuff mossbag brings up in his vid

[sinful nimbus]

Everything else

[quartz flicker]

what and why

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood Void Heart Snail Shamans etc

[heavy gyro]

Idk how the snail shaman retcon is bad

[sinful nimbus]

Void shouldn't have been in the narrative at all and Lifeblood being an infection is utterly uninteresting and makes Hornet look like a douche

[cedar skiff]

lifeblood doesnt really alter the narrative and i never gave a fuck about it so this is a skill issue

[stray grove]

That’s not good either it’s just inoffensive

[quartz flicker]

The dude calling Lifeblood Plasmiun is clearly just him not knowing the name "Lifeblood"

[sinful nimbus]

OK well

If you rewrote Silksong to have cohesive theming it would be necessary but I guess as the narrative stands its not

[stray grove]

None of the retcons are that big of a deal

[cedar skiff]

it would be a bad retcon if they did that shit and then wrote the weaver storyline badly

[sinful nimbus]

uh I know but ok

[edgy river]

I think this was a joke

[stray grove]

Maybe we should care less Malenia pfp

[cedar skiff]

i think star was referring to lifeblood being like evil

[sinful nimbus]

#1 Silksong glazer over here

[edgy river]

Different kingdoms, different names for things. Communication is scarce, they wouldn't know

[stray grove]

Nobody cares about it being called plasmium

[cedar skiff]

my beef with plasmium is that its a horrible name

it feels so out of place in the universe

[quartz flicker]

Lifeblood was never evil. We knew barely anything about it. SS just tells us that if used in nutty experiments, Lifeblood can get out of control.

[blissful harbor]

i’d be more confused if it was called lifeblood
why is a kingdom across the world calling it the same thing

[stray grove]

People care about what it is which is an uninteresting rip off of the infection that contradicts anything cool lifeblood had going for it in HK

[edgy river]

How does it make hornet look like a douche

[muted lantern]

Plasmium killed my grandma, okay?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it was kinda bizarre but I think plasmified has a nice ring to it

[foggy fractal]

that would be me ? >:C

[edgy river]

She really couldn't know? It was tabu in Hallownest

For a reason ig

[blissful harbor]

only good thing about it is it’s more interesting to look at

[sinful nimbus]

Because she helps Zylotol despite knowing what Lifeblood does

[edgy river]

But it was probably already tabu when she was born

[edgy river]

Did she know?

Does she say it?

[muted lantern]

I mean I feel like I'd want to wait for the lifeblood centric dlc to elaborate on what they are going for before making a sweeping claim like this.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes she mentions how she's seen plasmified entities in Hallownest

[edgy river]

No

[blissful harbor]

wym no

[cedar skiff]

i hope plasmium takes the route of being a naturally occuring parasite sort of thing that just fucks with the environment and not some sort of higher being bs i think that’d distinguish it