sk-lore

[gentle aspen]

“Oh the bees made the needle” so???

[spark valve]

actually I know what they would've done and it would've been inconceivably dogshit so maybe it's for the best

[gentle aspen]

it’s being strummed

[stray grove]

And creating the Weavers, we know she doesn’t have infinite silk given how desperate she is for every last scrap
If you’re asking why Rad seems like more of a threat in HK that’s because she just is

[gentle aspen]

She’s literally stringing her weapon and using it like a guitar bruh it doesn’t matter who made it

[foggy fractal]

nooooo the weaver from weavers den showing up and weaving all over the place would've been inconceivably peak

[stray grove]

The Haunting is a bargain bin version of the infection

It’s not half as dangerous

[limpid summit]

However annoying act 3 is I think having to choose between Strung to Serve and Weaver Queen as the pre dlc endings would have left a bad taste in my mouth

[gentle aspen]

Infinitely replenishing silk I guess

[gentle aspen]

honestly I have no clue if I had an example it’d be another really bad villain (Kaguya from Naruto)

[mossy jungle]

It’s true, the initial point I was making was that it just makes sense for gms to be weaker rn to radiance because of everything that she did and was subjected to, it might even be true that even at peak power gms cannot match peak power radiance

[gentle aspen]

some progenitor goddess who got sealed away by her creators is called the source of some power but wants to take it back from the mcs

[foggy fractal]

?

[gentle aspen]

and they’re both written poorly

and they’re both mothers…

[stray grove]

Even if GMS has infinitely replenishing silk the rate at which she produces it is apparently so slow that it’s a net gain to send a bunch of choirbugs to capture random 1/8 Weaver descendants halfway across the world for their shit

[spark valve]

no it would've been the 'oh this was our master plan to go create hornet and have her kill gms for us' which would be so lame

[gentle aspen]

did tc watch shippuden or something

fuckin william finished the war arc and thought it’d be funny

[stray grove]

Even peak GMS cannot hold a candle to Rad no

I mean they’re different beings and can’t be compared directly but you see to be talking about the amount of destruction they can dish out

Rad is way worse

[gentle aspen]

how would lost lace compare to like, peak gms anyways

[limpid summit]

No it sort of reminds me of Yhwach actually

Equally bad villain

[gentle aspen]

Ok

[stray grove]

Peak GMS can’t have been that strong lmao

She got sealed by her own bum creations

[mossy jungle]

Yes I was referring to that, it is difficult to classify and compare these ‘pale caste’ beings outside of that

[gentle aspen]

assumedly her peak was when the weavers were her kids or some shit

[mossy jungle]

For the moment, they are all unique

[stray grove]

Radiance isn’t a pale being

Pale beings actually can be compared

[mossy jungle]

Divine caste, whatever you want to call it

[stray grove]

PK vs GMS is a crazy mismatch

[gentle aspen]

just say higher beings or deities or whatever

[stray grove]

Former makes a charm containing infinite soul by accident

[spark valve]

I mean in general they can't be but gms specifically sucks

[gentle aspen]

why do you make shit up

“by accident” okay man

[stray grove]

KS was probably not made intentionally

[gentle aspen]

anything to glaze a glorified glowworm

[stray grove]

WL doesn’t know shit about it

[foggy fractal]

there is no limit to the glaze

[spark valve]

some day you too will kneel before the crown, heretic

[foggy fractal]

i thought the crown was dead ?

[stray grove]

The implication is the charm is something like a byproduct of the Vessels’ creation

[spark valve]

shut UP

[gentle aspen]

last I checked I don’t live under a monarchy

[mossy jungle]

what.

[stray grove]

Kingsoul yeah

[foggy fractal]

no YOU

[gentle aspen]

no it isn’t

[whole holly]

overall question is why is song, silk related game mechanic, it should have been expression of essence in this game

[spark valve]

you haven't checked in a bit huh

[stray grove]

WL doesn’t know what it is which would be strange if it was created intentionally

It also clearly represents the vessels in some abstract sense

[gentle aspen]

Dictatorships aren’t monarchies they’re worse

[stray grove]

And the charm itself is pretty abstract

[gentle aspen]

“She doesn’t know what it is”

[stray grove]

The union it represents is likely their conception

[stray grove]

She doesn’t read her dialogue

[gentle aspen]

she literally says it bears our once fractured soul

Fucking chud

[stray grove]

“What is at the heart of it I wonder”

[whole holly]

i mean both Dictatorship and Monarchy are Authoritarianism

[gentle aspen]

Are you being fr

[limpid summit]

Could any void-imprinted creature unite the void if they had a catalyst like Kingsoul

[stray grove]

Joker when KS literally splits open to reveal VH inside

[gentle aspen]

That doesn’t mean she doesn’t know what the charm is

[limpid summit]

What makes TK’s experience special

[gentle aspen]

nor does it mean void heart was there originally

[stray grove]

If it was created intentionally it would be very odd for there to be any unknowns at all

[mossy jungle]

no no, I think this is only confusion on the kingsoul:
the kingsoul is what remains of the pale king after its disappearance. That’s that

[stray grove]

Joker when the abstract charm is abstract

[gentle aspen]

while yes the charm is meant to be an analog for the vessels I personally believe the charm within only existed when the knight reforged it

[stray grove]

Media literacy moment

[gentle aspen]

Kirb when he randomly asserts bullshit and claims its fact

[stray grove]

Uh ok

[whole holly]

i mean i think it is experience of seeing it's birthplace and memories of abyss, why knight united is it gameplay and chance

[limpid summit]

I don’t think unending pale king glaze is what you’re intended to take away from the games

[stray grove]

What glaze bro

[limpid summit]

We can talk media literacy if you want

[stray grove]

You’re asking if any imprinted void entity could unite the void

[whole holly]

but real question is could someone unite other forces same way, like essence and soul under it's will

[limpid summit]

What makes TK’s experience special

[gentle aspen]

no

[limpid summit]

How does TK do it

[stray grove]

What unites the void is TK coming to terms with the circumstances of its birth lmao

[gentle aspen]

its experience makes it “special”

[stray grove]

It accepts that void inside itself

[limpid summit]

The gravity of its emotions splits the Kingsoul apart

[gentle aspen]

forgetting its past and sequestering a part of themselves and othering it makes it special

fool

[stray grove]

KS is a powerful catalyst representing its own creation and the associated burden

[mossy jungle]

Welp, we back to HK lore

[gentle aspen]

Anyways no essence and soul aren’t analogous to the void

[stray grove]

And it coming to terms with that generates VH

[spark valve]

if you put another void being in a similar situation with a similar resolve and allat it could probably also unify it but like so what

[stray grove]

The unification of the void is a result of TK accepting itself

[gentle aspen]

void is filled with a bunch of scattered wills and is kinda a bunch of individual

Soul is just life force

essence is light that makes up another dimension and thoughts

[stray grove]

Yeah it’s a dumb question

[gentle aspen]

you’re only gonna get people manipulating it

[limpid summit]

Showing collector a mould and the awakened dream nail

[stray grove]

😐

[gentle aspen]

that wouldn’t do anything

[stray grove]

media literacy moment frfr

[limpid summit]

If it was holding the Collector’s Map yes it would

[gentle aspen]

it doesn’t have that urge to reconcile its past and accept all of it

[limpid summit]

In front of the Vitruvian Grub

[mossy jungle]

That’s… far fetched, I don’t know if we can say that anything resembling some form of self remains in the void. It seems that, in its pure form, it consumes everything and leaves nothing behind

[gentle aspen]

the collector is literally just some guy

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t far fetched it is quite literally called power without unity

you can see siblings in the abyss

[spark valve]

the sibling journal entry in question

[whole holly]

i mean i would argue soul is similar to void, they are both wills way you describe it, Void is more volatile by default, soul imprints exist, which also fits into your individual , since crest is forged from lived experiences

[stray grove]

KS is a very powerful catalyst but it’s also stupid to ignore that it has significance to TK specifically if you gave it to Collector why would it do anything it doesn’t have the resolve needed to unite the Void

[gentle aspen]

soul isn’t a will nor does it have one

it is quite literally just the stuff that animates bugs

it’s like a blood you can do magic with

[stray grove]

Like this is described as a power before unseen, that it marks TK as something exceptional and allat

[mossy jungle]

See that’s different: I’m talking about void lake, I can’t say if that works also for ex divine children

[gentle aspen]

well, you can’t separate siblings from the void?

[whole holly]

neither does void in raw state

[gentle aspen]

and anyways tendrils have like eyes or what have you

[limpid summit]

Collector could unite the Void with a catalyst if some sort of grub incentive appeared to it

[gentle aspen]

There’s clearly something there

[stray grove]

😐

[mossy jungle]

Ehm I kinda do? They are just hanging out, they are not part of the united black lake

[stray grove]

Apple how is that a fucking revelation

How does collector accept the void inside itself

[mossy jungle]

Not physically, I mean

[gentle aspen]

why does it matter if they’re not physically chilling in the lake

[limpid summit]

Well collector probably thinks it’s LKB

[gentle aspen]

it’s part of the abyss it’s a part of the void

[limpid summit]

Some sort of revelation could occur for sure

[stray grove]

Ok???? Genuinely what are you yapping about bro

[whole holly]

Void tendrils seem to be Void given Form, by weaver lore tablets

[stray grove]

Who cares

[limpid summit]

Collector Given Form might actually be stronger than TK

[gentle aspen]

apple that’s entirely baseless and you are well aware of that

[whole holly]

?

[stray grove]

Yeah maybe if Collector had a completely different background and resolve and catalyst it could unify the void lmao me when I make shit up
Guys don’t feed the trolls

[silk dirge]

funwaa

no fun allowed

[stray grove]

Low effort shitposting isn’t for this channel

[mossy jungle]

Ok, but what I’m trying to say is that different levels of “voidness” have different effects (eg hornet) and void straight up consumes normal bugs while for divine demigods, it does… something unclear, some form of self remains.
I think the void lake, void in its purest form, has no self, it’s just a force of nature

[silk dirge]

video game lore objectively isnt serious

[limpid summit]

Okay fine Mr fun police

[mossy jungle]

That doesn’t make sense

[gentle aspen]

okay?

why are you in a more serious channel if you’re gonna go “no fun allowed its not that serious”

Follow channel rules

[limpid summit]

Pogseal why do you think PK built this tram

[stray grove]

Fun police implies something funny was said

You’re not funny

Do better

[silk dirge]

i dont understand the need of this channel to be a no fun allowed zone like we can discuss lore and not be completely serious about it

[stray grove]

Nobody is saying you have to be completely serious

[silk dirge]

i find this channel when its in a less serious mood tends to be a lot better for talking in

[gentle aspen]

not what is being stated
he is actively not following the rules by entertaining a low effort shitpost

[limpid summit]

👀

[silk dirge]

i mean i dont see any harm in joking around about that for a tiny bit

sure if you make it a big thing

[stray grove]

Oh my god shut up

[silk dirge]

but like just messing around with it for fun

[gentle aspen]

He has continued this line of thinking for almost half an hour

[limpid summit]

You’re on thin ice buddy

[gentle aspen]

Truth be told I don’t appreciate you coming in just to go “let people have fun” when you weren’t here or partaking in discussion prior

[gentle aspen]

Knock it off

[stray grove]

No he wasn’t shitposting originally this is just what he does

Schrödinger’s shitpost

[silk dirge]

nah apple has good theories

this one is bad

[limpid summit]

YAY

[silk dirge]

but they have other good ones

[cedar skiff]

hi guys

whats being discussed

[stray grove]

He realized he was spouting nonsense so started making increasingly ridiculous claims so that people made the charitable assumption that he was shitposting

[silk dirge]

nothing of importance lol

[stray grove]

I don’t care if he has other good theories this is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all week

[cedar skiff]

oh great

[limpid summit]

What are you talking about

[mossy jungle]

Boy did you come at a very specific moment lol

[limpid summit]

Live your own truth bro idm

[stray grove]

What other good theories lmao

That PK gave the Weavers a SoB

To seal GMS

[silk dirge]

i mean you havent been in this channel long enough to see them

[limpid summit]

Well I had a really good Myla’s Song theory

[gentle aspen]

do you think WL in the red memory is an objective thing or is it just hornet’s current experiences influencing her memories

[limpid summit]

Some other guy sort of helped with it

But not really

[stray grove]

Ok bro

That wasn’t even a theory

It was just saying Myla’s song might be a meta reference to a few things

[silk dirge]

i wonder if its like hornet imagining what white lady would say back or some shit

[limpid summit]

I think if people like Grimm and Hornet herself can be sentient in Godhome then WL could certainly bleed into memories of that gravity

[silk dirge]

that could certainly be a possibility

like maybe its a broken game of telephone or some shit

[cedar skiff]

personally i think both interpretations are fun tbh but considering the flower appears in reality im inclined to believe it actually takes place. it being influenced by hornets situation would be interesting characterisation

[limpid summit]

No it’s a theory that Radiance’s subconscious strategy bled into Myla’s song revealing a timeline of events

[stray grove]

The WL memory is clearly aware it’s a memory

[mossy jungle]

Welp my time is off, bye guys, thanks mod for sticking around

[stray grove]

HAHAHAHAHA

[limpid summit]

No it’s aware she’s in a memory

[silk dirge]

where white lady is trying to talk to hornet but her memory changes what she thinks wl is saying

[limpid summit]

Like how Hornet is aware she’s in an dream

[stray grove]

That’s not actually WL

It’s a memory of WL

[limpid summit]

Why not?

[stray grove]

That memory is self aware

[limpid summit]

It’s a memory of WL that becomes actual WL

The dialogue changes

[gentle aspen]

why would it become white lady

[stray grove]

I’m not going to argue this because I think it’s a completely meaningless distinction

It’s a memory of WL that is self aware

[gentle aspen]

I mean a.) the memory would be an exact copy regardless

[limpid summit]

Why would it be a completely meaningless distinction

She’s a higher being with world sense

[stray grove]

😐

[silk dirge]

a memory can be false

see pale stag

hornet could be thinking things wl never said

[gentle aspen]

and b.) what, did she just realize hornet is digging around in her memories and randomly pop in through higher being internet connection?

[spark valve]

no she isn't bruh

[silk dirge]

but then when it switches yeah thats her actually talking

[limpid summit]

Is that Grimm Hornet Sheo in godhome as well

Or are they real

[limpid summit]

Yes

That’s literally what happened

[gentle aspen]

Fucking what mate

[spark valve]

hornet herself as a memory is aware she's in a memory gang this isn't unprecedented 😭

[stray grove]

fr

[limpid summit]

She’s what

[gentle aspen]

I’d use a razor here but I don’t know what I’m shaving

[spark valve]

godhome

[limpid summit]

It’s not a memory

Little Ghost what dreams we share

[gentle aspen]

okay bro it’s a dream

[limpid summit]

For her it’s in real time

[spark valve]

for the imprint of her

[stray grove]

Skull

[gentle aspen]

what meaningful difference does that impart

[stray grove]

You think that’s actually Hornet

[spark valve]

it's not actually her bro

[gentle aspen]

for you to bring it up

[stray grove]

Apple just be saying shit

[cedar skiff]

i dont think theres any actually consistent in universe rules that allow us to draw a final conclusion

its more about whats compelling writing wise

[limpid summit]

What’s the point of it just not being White Lady

Like really

[spark valve]

introspection????

[silk dirge]

what are we trying to say here

[gentle aspen]

That’s not an argument

[limpid summit]

But she’s literally talking to a version of WL

[stray grove]

It’s a memory sequence 😭

Yeah to the memory

[spark valve]

she's talking to a memory of a mentor figure

[silk dirge]

are we trying to say what wl says in red memory is what hornet imagines wl is saying

[limpid summit]

The dialogue she gives is clearly placed outside the memory

[gentle aspen]

It’s her going into her memories and reliving shit in order to help pharloom man it actually being white lady doesn’t matter

[limpid summit]

It would have memory text

[gentle aspen]

memories or dreams can be aware they’re dreams

[stray grove]

Yeah dude the memory is self aware this shit isn’t unprecedented

[spark valve]

you can literally read it it clearly has the memory of wl realize she is a memory

[gentle aspen]

it’s not like it’s a rarity

[stray grove]

Do you think Hornet is actually present in Godhome

[limpid summit]

What?

[stray grove]

WL isn’t actually present in Hornet’s memory why the fuck would she be

[silk dirge]

ok this shit is trippy

[limpid summit]

No she says take the flower out do the memory

[spark valve]

...Indeed, spider... So much pain you must have passed to speak our hope so simply...

[silk dirge]

inception did not prepare me for this

[limpid summit]

Because Hornet is in a memory

[silk dirge]

memories knowing theyre in memories 😭

[gentle aspen]

Reach forth, child grown strong. Wrest it from this remembrance. Burn yourself free from our sad fate...
She literally notes its a memory

[spark valve]

'oh shit she's had more life experience'

[silk dirge]

like i can understand it but it feels so weird

[gentle aspen]

like almost word for word

[spark valve]

the word you're looking for is cool and original

[silk dirge]

true

[cedar skiff]

it being hornets inner subconscious way of grappling with the truths she learned would be interesting for her character though. that her mentors words and reassurance still matters to her deeply

[stray grove]

I mean it’s not original

TC don’t have original ideas

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah it can happen in real life lol

[stray grove]

Same shit happens in Godhome anyway

[spark valve]

yeah but the application of it here is different

[gentle aspen]

but like, worse

And it also doesn’t matter to godhome

[cedar skiff]

ive seen other stories handle similar concepts it not really that difficult to wrap your head around

[limpid summit]

Don’t see the point of changing the text box to denote real time conversation if it’s just a memory responding to her

Why would the rules change

[gentle aspen]

there’s no emotional connection there

[stray grove]

Someone told me not to make compromises

[limpid summit]

It is still a memory

[silk dirge]

it was just kind of confusing at first

now it makes more sense to me kinda

[cedar skiff]

unless youre trying to make it consistent in an already inconsistent set of in universe rules

[gentle aspen]

because hornet isn’t responding as a memory???

[silk dirge]

idk memories in general are trippy as fuck

[limpid summit]

But WL is lmao

[spark valve]

because she's sequence breaking

[silk dirge]

she speedran the memory

[gentle aspen]

Hornet basically lucid dreams in that moment so of course White Lady’s dialogue is gonna be more lucid in response

[foggy fractal]

did she get wr ?

[spark valve]

yes actually

[stray grove]

The text box changes to signify where the actual memory ends Hornet’s clothes also change lmao

After that point WL realizes she’s a memory and starts yapping

[silk dirge]

the possibility of hornet hallucinating a more powerful version of everbloom than ever existed is funny

[foggy fractal]

awesome

congrats Hornet

[cedar skiff]

the points being made here just dont make sense to me because whats like the further deduction from this? what do we gain from it actually being white lady herself or not What are yall trying to say

[gentle aspen]

well it’s less hallucination and more essence manipulation

[silk dirge]

and that might actually be what happened which is funny

[limpid summit]

“Take it from this memory” doesn’t mean “take it from me, a memory”

This is the Red Memory sequence

[stray grove]

I don’t think it fucking matters

But Apple is insistent that it’s actually her and that’s just wrong

[silk dirge]

has anyone ever noted the parallels between this and when you get dream nail

[gentle aspen]

why do you keep trying to assert minor dialogue as proof its her

[cedar skiff]

so its just about wanting to be right and no compelling narrative discussion got it

average day in sk lore

anywho

[silk dirge]

i dont think it means much but its an intentional parallel for sure

[limpid summit]

No actually

That’s sort of fun

[limpid summit]

This is you guys man

[cedar skiff]

she took notes from green prince how heartwarming

[limpid summit]

I’m saying that minor dialogue doesn’t mean anything

“WL realizes she’s in a memory”

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t what you’re saying at all

[limpid summit]

...Indeed, spider... So much pain you must have passed to speak our hope so simply...

[gentle aspen]

good job you killed chat

are you happy

[limpid summit]

What did you say this meant

[stray grove]

“Oh shit she’s had life experience”

[spark valve]

it's very much like how seer got dream wielder but with a lot more juice so it's more powerful and less transient

[limpid summit]

That doesn’t matter either way

You think Hornet went to QG to visit WL

She would have more life experience than the last time they met regardless

[stray grove]

I mean probably yes but that’s also entirely besides the point

[limpid summit]

Inconclusive

[spark valve]

it is the memory of wl realizing that the version of hornet she's speaking to is older and wiser

[stray grove]

Of all the hills to die on why have you chosen this one

[limpid summit]

There are weaker hills I have passed on

But Freddy always comes back

[silk dirge]

and also more racist

[stray grove]

Hornet was probably always racist

[spark valve]

"I can't believe we raised you this way"

[foggy fractal]

older yes
wiser ? erm....

[limpid summit]

Well when 2 of your 3 parents are racist

[foggy fractal]

[stray grove]

Midwife says spiders are the most intelligent species clearly they think themselves superior

[silk dirge]

"look they were stinky"

[stray grove]

Hallownest Weavers also probably kept slaves

[spark valve]

weavers suck

[whole holly]

yeah, high caste child of wyrm and weaver, taught by weavers that being part wyrm is somehow inferior to being full weaver

[stray grove]

Hell they even think they’re better than Wyrms lmao

[spark valve]

cindril weavers are innocent of most of the shit though

[limpid summit]

Hallownest weavers must have genuinely been trash these were the prime people eating weavers that left

[gentle aspen]

You need to respect the weavers

[whole holly]

ye lol

[stray grove]

They’re not innocent for talking shit about my goat

[limpid summit]

What was the theory that they ate the Sire

[foggy fractal]

weavers suck, gms sucks, hornet sucks, lace sucks who doesn't suck in this god damn family ? Phantom ?

[spark valve]

wanting hornet to be more weaver than wyrm doesn't necessarily mean they think they're better just that they want her to be one of them

[silk dirge]

savage beastfly

[whole holly]

?

[limpid summit]

Phantom’s lore sucks

[stray grove]

Also the first thing Herrah did after she gained power was force people to start worshipping her

[limpid summit]

When was she born and why can you literally skip her

[whole holly]

i respect them less than mothkin

[silk dirge]

savage beastfly having crazy lore is so funny

[stray grove]

I wonder which other weavers did that

Hmm

[limpid summit]

Taking Phantom to wake up Khann after Act 3

[gentle aspen]

?????

Force?

Bro just spouting shit once more

[cedar skiff]

finally someone else is asking why shes skippable

thank you

lace did nothing wrong i too would start killing random citadel bugs if i was bored

[silk dirge]

real

[stray grove]

That’s not a good reason to hate on them

[limpid summit]

Well I have birth theories

That’s another one of my theories

[spark valve]

you just made up that she forced anything tho

[stray grove]

Yeah I did so what

[gentle aspen]

If they wanted that why does she need to “prove” it

[spark valve]

theorize ten tons of rocks raining down on your location rn

[stray grove]

We don’t know that the Pharloom weavers forced anything either

[gentle aspen]

why is being daughter of their queen not enough

[spark valve]

because using their craft and being part of their culture is part of being in the ingroup???

[foggy fractal]

nooo don't do that that's illegal !

[whole holly]

they did seduce, alleged by nameless town memory

[limpid summit]

Strongest GMS attack 💔

[spark valve]

bro what are you on about 😭

[stray grove]

I’m talking about them being worshipped specifically

If you set yourself up as a god worship comes naturally

[spark valve]

source on herrah claiming to be divine??

having followers doesn't mean she lied about being a god

[stray grove]

I’m talking about the Pharloom Weavers not Herrah

[gentle aspen]

Bros waffling

[stray grove]

Who did claim to be divine

Herrah may have actually thought she was divine though lmao

She never would’ve found out about the FS shit

[spark valve]

the pharloom weavers also like imprisoned people who questioned their divinity and enslaved people n shit

[limpid summit]

“Devout”

[gentle aspen]

good job apple you can recognize words

[spark valve]

bro thinks that that was actually a mystery and that the issue with fs wasn't gabbing to NON WEAVERS

[stray grove]

I mean I’m just taking the piss

[limpid summit]

Ig you can use devout in a non religious context

But lol

[gentle aspen]

We can tell

[stray grove]

GMS called them divine

[cedar skiff]

why is everyone jumping apple today 💔

[stray grove]

Anyway

Here’s a legitimate reason to hate on the Hallownest Weavers

[foggy fractal]

cuz they don't like gholdengo

[cedar skiff]

they’re against free public transport within hallownest

[limpid summit]

Gholdengo so tuff

[spark valve]

I thought you were a pale king appreciator why would you try so hard to come up with slander for his allies

[stray grove]

Herrah ...Ignore them, daughter... their whispers...
...Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine...

[limpid summit]

Really doesn’t want me to type this

[stray grove]

All of them except Herrah kind of suck actually

[gentle aspen]

where the fuck am I rn

[foggy fractal]

#sk-lore

[spark valve]

them wanting hornet to be their queen is bad for hornet's agency but it's not, like, evil

they want their princess to protect them and rule them well

[stray grove]

I never said they were evil

[gentle aspen]

well they’re grooming her to be their queen

[stray grove]

I said that was a legitimate reason to hate them

[spark valve]

it's a monarchy

[gentle aspen]

and I don’t like being brushed

[spark valve]

yeah no shit the princess was chosen to be their ruler 😭

[foggy fractal]

🪥 ?

[stray grove]

Yeah but the entire point Herrah is making is that only by ignoring them can she become who she’s truly meant to be

It’s not really up for debate that them grooming her into the ideal ruler is bad for her agency

[spark valve]

this is such a weak criticism of them though

like yeah it's not great but it's not that bad

[gentle aspen]

tammo thinks grooming is a weak criticism…

[spark valve]

bro is equivocating between very different things

[stray grove]

I mean sure

But it’s a legitimate criticism

[gentle aspen]

nah that’s what you said

[stray grove]

I only brought it up because I was joshing before

[spark valve]

what you're saying is basically the equivalent of saying 'parents telling their kids they should become doctors is grooming' like yeah you shouldn't do that but that term is loaded with way more weight than the context supports

[limpid summit]

Could Hornet wear an unraveled lace like the Jake suit

[stray grove]

Also weavers are probably genetically predisposed to being evil

[gentle aspen]

wowwwww

[stray grove]

Hornet’s evil genes don’t come from PK

[gentle aspen]

Of course

[stray grove]

Hornet has evil genes that’s canon

[gentle aspen]

it always leads back to PK glaze

[spark valve]

I mean there doesn't have to be a predisposition there

power corrupts

[stray grove]

Yeah but Hornet has evil genes

(They’re from her pale being side but PK was highk pretty chill)

[spark valve]

you could read that as about either pk, weavers, or even just a general statement about the temptations of power where every bug has that

[stray grove]

Yeah yeah whatever

[spark valve]

and none of these are even mutually exclusive

[stray grove]

idc Weavers are still evil

Including the Hallownest ones

[gentle aspen]

not particularly

[spark valve]

the ones in pharloom were but that isn't necessarily due to a biological predisposition

[gentle aspen]

They were just kinda assholes

[stray grove]

Yes centralizing power is bad blah blah blah who cares evil genes

GMS is evil and changed their genetic makeup

[fresh badger]

BRO??????????????????????????????????????????

mods, confiscate his gulka juice

[spark valve]

fr

people gotta get off the gulk

[stray grove]

What’s wrong with gulka venom

Do you hear yourselves rn

[spark valve]

have you not read the studies about the long term effects of recreational use of gulka venom???

[stray grove]

Hunter seems fine

[foggy fractal]

hunter as in that guy from hollow knight ?

[gentle aspen]

[stray grove]

Yeah he does drugs (based)

[spark valve]

the best character yes

[foggy fractal]

speaking of hunter

[stray grove]

Not the best but top 5

[foggy fractal]

I'm suprised no one made a hunter boss fight mod yet

[stray grove]

Top 3 probably

[gentle aspen]

that would be very hard to do

[foggy fractal]

yes

[stray grove]

PK Quirrel and Hunter

All of them are pretty based

[gentle aspen]

there’s one fraud there

[stray grove]

I don’t appreciate your tone

Ogrim is up there too actually

[spark valve]

hunter's not a fraud he knows his own strength

he knows tk could body him if it tries and doesn't hide when foes in hallownest pose a threat

[limpid summit]

Seth should have been there

He should have

[stray grove]

He should have

[spark valve]

seth is locked in rewrite hell

[stray grove]

I love the old hearts rewrites

[foggy fractal]

tammo what is your top 5

[spark valve]

hm

[stray grove]

He’s going to put Quirrel at #1

[spark valve]

pk hunter quirrel ogrim uuuuuuuuh

I appreciate zote's joke

so he can have 5

whatever

[foggy fractal]

cool cool

[gentle aspen]

Of course you didn’t add that character

[foggy fractal]

who is that character

[stray grove]

Bardoon

[spark valve]

bardoon is fine but kinda not that interesting he's just an exposition dump and while the exposition is neat bardoon is a nothing burger

[stray grove]

TK

[foggy fractal]

mmmm nothing burger yum

[stray grove]

TC kind of didn’t write that many cool characters

Cornifer’s neat ig

Can he have top 5 I don’t feel good with Zote getting it

[spark valve]

fine

[stray grove]

THK is cool too but it feels a bit like cheating

[foggy fractal]

why ?

[spark valve]

thk doesn't even have that much characterization

[stray grove]

THK doesn’t really do that much

Most of its characterization is characterization for PK

[foggy fractal]

pel kig 🗣️ no cos

[limpid summit]

Why doesn’t Hornet regain the ability to jump super high

[stray grove]

Silk soar;

Me when video game

[limpid summit]

Anyway I know Kirb is anxiously awaiting my top 5

[spark valve]

🦗

[limpid summit]

I expect Sharpe to be somewhere on this list if he’s not mangled but Ogrim Quirrel PK TK Sherma

Sherma’s journey is the most well written and cohesive thing in Silksong

And he’s cute

[stray grove]

Dogshit list lmao

[cedar skiff]

nobody mentioning shakra on their lists this gotta be misogyny

[spark valve]

I know act 3 is a bit of a wild left turn but we don't gotta pretend the citadel isn't well written and cohesive

[limpid summit]

Well the citadel is pretty good

[blissful harbor]

she actually jumps at her silksong height in hk

[limpid summit]

But that’s more of an abstract entity

[stray grove]

Yeah the citadel is pretty cool actually

[blissful harbor]

tk is just so short it looks massive

[gentle aspen]

She’s like
consistent throughout the game

[stray grove]

It’s funny that everyone is comically evil but it’s otherwise well written and cohesive

[limpid summit]

The different things it inspires in various characters even bad ones is really cool

[spark valve]

ok but they aren't actually comically evil is the thing

[cedar skiff]

but its not comically evil??

[limpid summit]

I like how we’re led to assume early on that it’s all a HB’s fault and it really is but as Hornet journeys she’s like

Weavers and regular bugs did this too

That was very nice

[spark valve]

they don't do bad shit for no reason they do bad shit to advance their own interests and shit

[limpid summit]

I like her a lot

But I think it’s hard to give the map NPC a cohesive storyline

She’s gotta be everywhere

[stray grove]

No some of the bad shit they do is for no reason

[limpid summit]

Top 15 if not 10

[stray grove]

Why’d they exile my goat Lugoli 💔

[spark valve]

never look in lugoli's pantry

[stray grove]

Well he’s secretly a cannibal or something

See what I mean about being comically evil

[cedar skiff]

her storyline as a map npc is so much more compelling than cornifer people are just reddit wholesome about cornifer

a tribeswoman set out on a search for her master mapping out the kingdom and finding beauty in it deciding to protect it versus wholesome chungus husband

[limpid summit]

You know the family guy cutaway where the workplace employees are all throwing up at the random dude’s food

[limpid summit]

Well yeah ofc

[stray grove]

More importantly a lot of the evil citadel shit is like taking the piss

[limpid summit]

She’s a better character than cornifer for sure

I do still like him a lot

[stray grove]

Yeah there’s a reason but slaves who make slavers who catch slaves who kill slaves to make more slaves

[cedar skiff]

what

[limpid summit]

Buzzwords

[cedar skiff]

what are you waffling about genuinely

[limpid summit]

Actually Soul Master would probably be in my top 10

And if Groal wasn’t haunted he might be too

Yes it sort of makes sense I just hate it

[spark valve]

the citadel is extremely evil to a huge degree but they do shit for their own benefit which is the difference between being comically evil in a bad way and just being very very evil

[stray grove]

The architects are slaves and make sentinels who are slaves and also slavers and the sentinels’ job is to catch more slaves to serve in the citadel and then they started sending a bunch of those slaves to slave away in the underworks then they started killing a bunch of slaves to make robot slaves

[limpid summit]

Just as the weavers intended

[stray grove]

There are also slaves who exist to judge other slaves and slaves who exist to make sure the other slaves don’t do bad shit

[spark valve]

it's almost like the point of the game is everyone being victims to a system they're also perpetrating 😭

[stray grove]

Thematically it makes sense though

Even the conductors are slaves

[cedar skiff]

this is just horribly flanderizing the story jesus christ

[spark valve]

this isn't bad writing that's why the citadel is well written

[stray grove]

I was getting to that

[cedar skiff]

its a corrupt system run on religion and generational trauma

[stray grove]

I admitted it was well written yeah

I don’t dislike it

I just find it funny

[cedar skiff]

but you said its comically evil??

its not?

[stray grove]

Yeah that’s comical and evil

[spark valve]

I mean it is kinda funny

[limpid summit]

You’re comically evil

[spark valve]

but that's not bad

[stray grove]

Citadel isn’t bad though

[limpid summit]

Who are the least 5 well written characters in the series

[stray grove]

HK also wore its themes on its sleeve

How many instances of nothing lasts forever

[spark valve]

yes the almost funnier part is that silksong is somehow subtler

even with bell hermit screaming it at you right away

[stray grove]

Hornet

Broodling

Seth

[limpid summit]

Hornet (Silksong), Lace, Vog, Garmond and Seth

[spark valve]

seth got done so dirty

[cedar skiff]

i dont think team cherry doesnt know how to write per se they just forget to actually write characters sometimes (phantom)

[stray grove]

Garmond

[spark valve]

phantom is fine she works for what she is

[mighty kraken]

hi

[stray grove]

Phantom?

Phantom’s alright tbh

[limpid summit]

Killing Phantom and then talking to caretaker like

Oh gee uhhh

[cedar skiff]

she doesn’t have nearly enough going on

[limpid summit]

Never seen anything like that before

[mighty kraken]

whats the most brain dead theory someone suggested on here

[cedar skiff]

despite how relevant she should be to the narrative

[spark valve]

that's hornet being an amnesiac

[cedar skiff]

its a missed opportunity

[limpid summit]

Pale king can shoot lasers

[stray grove]

I mean she’s not supposed to be that relevant to the narrative

[gentle aspen]

lightblood

[limpid summit]

Do you think phantom has some sort of false hydra forget-me-not type thing

[spark valve]

phantom isn't that important and that's part of the point of her character

[stray grove]

Phantom was discarded and forgotten

[limpid summit]

Scrambles the brain

[gentle aspen]

no

[cedar skiff]

the exhaust organ needolin is potential man abyss climb cutscene

[stray grove]

What

[cedar skiff]

yeah but she’d fit into it in a really interesting way

[limpid summit]

Okay yes but i wouldn’t go so far as to say the meta lack of mention or foresight as to what she should do relates to that

Like she’s just fully ignored by so many people who shouldn’t ignore her

[stray grove]

But that’s like, the point?

Phantom’s whole thing is that she’s ignored

[gentle aspen]

suicidal office worker fr

[cedar skiff]

its a really shitty way to say i think her and lace being siblings should have been highlighted in a more major way akin to thk and tk

[gentle aspen]

Dreams of valhalla

[gentle aspen]

but…it is though

[spark valve]

and that death is her way out, constantly bringing it back up would be weird

[cedar skiff]

it isnt

[gentle aspen]

They have entirely different responses to the same question posited

[stray grove]

It is highlighted and that’s also not the same thing at all

[cedar skiff]

anything related to phantom is literally entirely optional

[gentle aspen]

Same as thk and tk

[spark valve]

phantom's existence is also pretty substantial as character development for lace

[cedar skiff]

and i dont think its a cool meta thing i personally think its A Missed Opportunity

[gentle aspen]

THK doggedly chases the impossible ideal of purity while TK has the choice to evolve past that

Lace screams and tears at the world for birthing her into a life without life

Phantom has a quiet resignation that hopes for death

[stray grove]

It’s also pretty substantial as characterization for GMS (what little of it she has)

[spark valve]

eh

[gentle aspen]

and then lace learns “actually my life has meaning even if it isn’t a normal one” while phantom doesn’t get that chance

[mighty kraken]

but the entire idea around phantom supposed to be failed and forgotten?

[gentle aspen]

could it have been done better? Sure
But it isn’t like she has nothing right now, it just wasn’t done in a way you liked

[cedar skiff]

that doesnt mean she couldnt have been explored more through say lace

[stray grove]

I mean Phantom being spun to fade is supposed to show us that GMS only wants dolls and is content to let her beloved daughters rot away the second she gets something better
Which feeds into Lace’s characterization and her self doubt

[gentle aspen]

okay but like

What does that add

[mighty kraken]

was there only 1 needolin diaglouge in the exahst organ or whatever its called or more

[cedar skiff]

yeah im not making a point about it being bad writing, like i said i dont think tc are bad writers but the way phantom was handled is not to my personal taste and makes me feel like they forgor

[spark valve]

part of her character is being a contrast with lace exploring lace is in the current game exploring both to a degree

[stray grove]

Ultimately as far as GMS is concerned her daughters are just a means to satisfy her twisted desire for motherhood

[cedar skiff]

for one more much needed lace moments

[gentle aspen]

lace had too many moments

fucking three fights

[stray grove]

She spun us to fade... She spun us to break... Why us, sister? Why us?

Like this is pretty good at establishing GMS’ cruelty/neglect

[cedar skiff]

she disappears for far too long in act 2

[stray grove]

And GMS doesn’t really get much characterization so what little of it is there is neat

[cedar skiff]

if anyone had seen across the spiderverse it kinda feels like the spot dipping for half the movie and showing up at the end as a massive threat

[spark valve]

I mean yeah she gets little characterization but aside from act 3 she's not really a character and doesn't need to be one in the abstract sense

gms

[sinful nimbus]

Characterize why GMS hates her neighbors

[stray grove]

No which is why I think Phantom is cool

It’s not in your face

[cedar skiff]

also tbh my main nitpicks with phantom would be solved if her fight wasnt optional because what little characterisation we get is very much relevant to the true ending, making lace more compelling and giving more insight into gms

[gentle aspen]

she’s a pale being they need to devote or destroy or some bullshit

[stray grove]

If I had a nickel for every time someone took that line out of context

[gentle aspen]

if I had a nickel for every time you shut the fuck up I’d be broke

[stray grove]

I don’t think GMS even hates her neighbors

[spark valve]

phantom being as hidden as she is is kind of a benefit and serves the forgotten and abandoned angle immensely

her being mandatory would kind of erode that

[stray grove]

She didn’t actually attack them she just centralized power

[sinful nimbus]

🥀

[spark valve]

there is also a flea in the same room as exhaust organ so by the time you're doing act 3 reqs and unlock vog you will or at least can have it marked on your map even if nothing forces you to actually go there

[cedar skiff]

id argue this would be effective if this franchise didnt rely a lot on subtle storytelling. this doesnt feel like a narrative that can get away with doing that

[stray grove]

I mean it’s not like GMS went to war with Karak or whatever Karak was also pretty militant and wouldn’t have fallen in line regardless

[cedar skiff]

okay this might be genius

[stray grove]

I don’t think GMS is actually implied to have done much of anything beyond make the Weavers

[spark valve]

and bound them to her service

but the game does say she bound the lands beneath her whatever that means

[cedar skiff]

i like to think this too but then theres the 26 stupidly placed mentions about The Pale Light or some shit like that

[edgy nebula]

maybe maybe not, we dont know what couldve happened in karak

[stray grove]

That might just be in reference to her centralizing power though

[cedar skiff]

is there a commonly agreed upon verdict as to who did verdania by now

[spark valve]

karak might've resisted her but it didn't fall to her

[sinful nimbus]

Bro thinks the game has themes

[spark valve]

I mean it does

[stray grove]

Nobody “did” Verdania per se

[edgy nebula]

karak (presumably) fell to weavers blocking their water supply, i wouldnt call gms the karak killer in that situation but it's possible she had a part

[stray grove]

Verdania fell in line

They made a deal with the Citadel to leave them alone in exchange for one of the Princes

[edgy nebula]

verdania fell post-sleepy gms

[stray grove]

Then the other Prince fucked off and the lands withered or something

[edgy nebula]

i think

[spark valve]

verdania seems like it may have just dried out or something and the citadel simply didn't intervene to help

[stray grove]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

verdania couldnt survive the poop water

[sinful nimbus]

Lomms fault

[cedar skiff]

when everyone genuinely has compelling verdania arguments but the game genuinely pulls up with “You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.”

[sinful nimbus]

Crazy how they just don't explain what happened to Verdania or Karak

Least undercooked old heart lore

[stray grove]

I mean Hornet is just absolving GP of the guilt here that doesn’t actually mean what people think it means

[cedar skiff]

always bet on weavers froze the water theory

[spark valve]

maybe the single most misinterpreted line of all time

[edgy nebula]

karak ruled half of pharloom and we dont even get mentions of them

[silk dirge]

its possible

[stray grove]

Well here’s the thing

[edgy nebula]

actually criminal

[cedar skiff]

maybe its just a bad line and that ok

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker ancient caste has been around for longer

[edgy nebula]

my personal theory

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe it'll surpass that in 7 years but it will never surpass idea instilled

[spark valve]

I mean it's not clearly written but context makes it clear what it means

[silk dirge]

theres literally a blocked weavenest entrance where the memory crystal is

[cedar skiff]

i truly believe this

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[stray grove]

If the other old hearts work the same was Karm then Khann’s death and the Princes’ absence from Verdania could have contributed to each land’s demise

[sinful nimbus]

I don't want to hear you defend the lore

Glazer

[spark valve]

part of the commentary with the old hearts is that everything is ultimately born of the system of power gms herself imposed, and her point isn't that pale beings are mean and say follow me or die it's that the existence of that kind of power leads to these sorts of outcomes one way or another

[silk dirge]

you cant tell me this isnt some random door

i want to go in there

[edgy nebula]

it's partly implied khann isnt dead

[cedar skiff]

i always knew i could count on you pogseal

[stray grove]

What

[cedar skiff]

khann isnt dead becore we fight him

hes just crusted up

[sinful nimbus]

Its a leftover from when Voltnest connected to the Coral Tower

[silk dirge]

what

[spark valve]

Chapel Maid: What's this? That's an unexpected heart you're holding, Old One...

Chapel Maid: We can guess to its source, though we'd believed it long gone from these lands.
Hornet: The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished.
**Hornet: A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged. **

[edgy nebula]

he doesnt crust up like dead karakas do until we get his heart, and coral continues to grow as shown by the coral in the slab and the citadel bench room

[silk dirge]

voltnest connected to the bottom of mt fay?

[edgy nebula]

i think it's slightly implied none of the hearts are dead

aside from gp's lover

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah wait what

I zoned out and thought you were talking about that one ledge

[stray grove]

@spark valve what’s your read on this
I don’t think it’s particularly compelling for these lands to have died as the direct consequence of the citadel’s interference that doesn’t make a great deal of sense to me

[silk dirge]

oh

lmao

[limpid summit]

I mean far fields is not dead

[cedar skiff]

i agree but that one like is badly worded for more reasons than one. the chapel maid one makes much more sense

[stray grove]

It’s going to die

[silk dirge]

mt fay weavenest dlc 🙏

[gentle aspen]

It’s going to

[edgy nebula]

hornet says it will die

[limpid summit]

Yes

It isn’t dead until we kill karm to restart the cycle

[sinful nimbus]

Far Fields was nourished by red ant blood

[silk dirge]

ecological succession time

[spark valve]

I mean the point of it is that there's nothing they could've done and gp being gone isn't why verdania died so like
yeah it would suck if gp being gone is why it died

[limpid summit]

But like that always was weird

[cedar skiff]

on everybodys souls gilly will become far fields new heart

[silk dirge]

yeah shes the daughter of gurr

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[silk dirge]

i do not actually endorse this theory

[sinful nimbus]

I do

[spark valve]

sentenced to getting eaten by slabflies

[stray grove]

Yeah also the power sustaining those lands is still like present

The Karm shit only happens because that power is removed

[spark valve]

and burned as fuel

hornet is literally deforesting to make fuel for her weapons 💔

[gentle aspen]

so hornet does good by removing the power and not letting it be passed down

Basednet

[cedar skiff]

well at least she aided in whatever moss druid has planned for mosshome

[spark valve]

no? old hearts are different than shit like gms's concentration of power

[gentle aspen]

moss druid is tripping balls

[stray grove]

That power is also like already there

And the game says centralizing power is a bad thing so idk if Moss Druid will be a net positive

[gentle aspen]

Nah

[spark valve]

yeah guys the druid huffing fumes in a fantasy setting where clairvoyance exists is just yapping

[cedar skiff]

moss druid believers

[gentle aspen]

notice how I didn’t say that and you made it up

[spark valve]

old hearts are like
natural emergences from the existence of regions

[stray grove]

Yeah so an artificial one isn’t necessarily a good thing

[gentle aspen]

moss druid is tripping balls and connecting to a new heart or something

[limpid summit]

Believers: “they’re nonbinary???”

[spark valve]

you can argue it's weird to distinguish them from what gms does and I sorta agree but like it seems to be a difference in how the game regards it

[stray grove]

Moss Druid isn’t making a new power out of nothing

The power is already there

[silk dirge]

ok wait this brings up an interesting topic

[spark valve]

also khann sucks and was doing the bad shit too

[silk dirge]

hearts have a lot of symbolism in silksong

that hasnt been discussed but it definitely should imo

[spark valve]

hearts tend to have a lot of symbolism in anything

[silk dirge]

old hearts and silk hearts being prime examples

[silk dirge]

shrue

[limpid summit]

Do we think Moss Druid is going to attempt to stop LBB

[silk dirge]

but also the marrow lore tablet about silk wrapped around the heart

[limpid summit]

Lifeways are right next to them

[sinful nimbus]

hearts have a lot of symbolism in the nightmare realm

[spark valve]

I don't know how like unique and distinct the use of hearts is in silksong it's kinda just about cores conceptually

[cedar skiff]

its a rare occurrence when sk lore wants to discuss the narrative you have to cherish it

[spark valve]

this might be about the actual organ

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah

[stray grove]

What crimes will Moss Druid commit

[sinful nimbus]

The haunting exploits the rhythm of your heart

[spark valve]

but yeah the silk entraps their essence and souls and their very being and allat

[limpid summit]

Are the old hearts objects of living nightmares

[silk dirge]

no because the chasm is large enough to prevent lifeblood spreading

[spark valve]

...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...

[silk dirge]

im using fucking

[stray grove]

Bro just saying shit

[silk dirge]

terraria logic

[limpid summit]

Bro can’t I have a little fun

Holy

[spark valve]

no only I can have fun

[silk dirge]

but it makes sense there is a chasm between wormways and moss grotto

it would need to get across that

[limpid summit]

Tammo it’s not you I have Quirrel with

[stray grove]

I also don’t know if there’s necessarily a difference old hearts are still capable of bad shit (Khann) and the main theme seems to be that any centralizing power is bad
The power of the old hearts is always present in those regions and one could make the argument that it would be better off not being in the hands of a single bug

[spark valve]

I mean idk if I'd call wormways that isolated but it's had limited time to spread

[limpid summit]

If there is a troupe dlc I hope it’s not a ritual

Something different

[silk dirge]

oh wait i forgot about the bottom part

[cedar skiff]

for one i find it awesome that the hearts hornet takes arent some metaphorical shit but actually real beating hearts

[limpid summit]

We could actually talk to NMH

[cedar skiff]

its metal af

[silk dirge]

i was thinking like no way it can leap across here

[sinful nimbus]

What bad things did Khann do

[silk dirge]

but it can just spread down

[limpid summit]

Do you think it could harvest from the dead Heart civilizations or does it have to be big enough to constitute a kingdom

[cedar skiff]

be a dictator

[spark valve]

you could make that argument but it doesn't seem to be possible not to have it that way

[sinful nimbus]

I mean like yeah he was kinda ruthless but no society can be perfect and its leagues better than Pharloom

[spark valve]

also idk if most of the old hearts are like actively fostering that power within themselves it seems like it might just sorta happen

[limpid summit]

The Karaka would have had to buckle down in a place as harsh as Pharloom

[spark valve]

moss druid being the exception ofc

[limpid summit]

He’s not inherently a bad dude

[cedar skiff]

powerscaling the corrupt governments of the hollow knight franchise

[stray grove]

I mean Mosslands is doing fine rn and assuming Moss Druid is successful it’s possible the other Old Hearts came about in a similar way

[sinful nimbus]

I mean he just pulled himself up by the bootstraps

[spark valve]

karak might be big enough

[silk dirge]

which higher being is most equivalent to a certain orange person

[stray grove]

Yeah we just don’t know

[spark valve]

radiance it's not close

[gentle aspen]

Dawg what

[silk dirge]

ok yeah that was an easy question lmao

[gentle aspen]

I dunno she’s more justified than him

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King

[spark valve]

me when I lie

[limpid summit]

I don’t know how to put it across

But like

[stray grove]

Bruh

[silk dirge]

star got pk hater infection 😭

[limpid summit]

I think there could be some symbolism there

[sinful nimbus]

Well PK had a cult of personality around him Rad didn't

[silk dirge]

its very contagious

[spark valve]

I'm vaccinated

[stray grove]

I’m immune

[silk dirge]

same

[limpid summit]

I’m a bit sick

[silk dirge]

unrelated somehow my ass literally never got covid its kinda wild

[stray grove]

Anyway I think it’s an interesting idea that the old hearts didn’t arise naturally

[sinful nimbus]

I had a good 3 year long run of no covid

[stray grove]

But instead fostered that power within themselves in a similar vein to what Moss Druid is currently attempting

[silk dirge]

yeah

[stray grove]

The lands always had power ofc

[silk dirge]

i wonder how it would be before them then

maybe like some sort of scattered civilization

[stray grove]

But I feel like it’s a bit inconsistent thematically to go “pale beings bad cos centralizing power” then turn around and go “the old hearts are fine though” when they do the same shit

[spark valve]

eh it seems kind of against what the shamans talk about

[gentle aspen]

…moss prophet?

[limpid summit]

Except Nyleth

[spark valve]

the way they describe it it sounds like sort of latent power that existed pre gms then god pushed to the fringes and coalesced or whatever the fuck

[limpid summit]

That’s sort of different

They’re fanatically filling the void of Unn

[stray grove]

So how is that different to pale beings then

[ornate pier]

I thoguht starpengu was quite a defender of pk, what happened

[sinful nimbus]

Bros reaching 🥀

[spark valve]

there's a huge difference in scale and ambition

[ornate pier]

Moss prophet didn't really have any large scale influence

[stray grove]

The scale is different yes

[spark valve]

the scale is the problem

[sinful nimbus]

How is it passed down

[spark valve]

does it matter

[sinful nimbus]

Who did Nyleth get it from

[stray grove]

I mean Khann was probably still pretty bad

[spark valve]

sure khann was quite bad

there's gonna be a blurry line

that's fine

[stray grove]

Why did they bother to make Khann bad if they were gonna treat the old hearts differently though

Wouldn’t it be more consistent to just say that all centralizing power is bad

[spark valve]

khann's badness is not really related to his being a heart

[stray grove]

imo it sort of is

Well

I get what you mean

But ultimately if he wasn’t a heart he wouldn’t have had centralizing power

[spark valve]

sure he could have

[ornate pier]

Is the comment that khann's people were extremely loyal to him supposed to paint him in a slightly positive light or what

Well, his army

[spark valve]

the power he held which was problematic was him and his army's martial control over a huge portion of the kingdom

[limpid summit]

Technically I mean

Like he was hardened

His people had to endure much

[stray grove]

Yeah I get what you mean but like

[limpid summit]

For less combative bugs his rule would have been harsh wouldn’t mean he was an iron willed maniac

[stray grove]

His power to control the coral crust to his bidding is a big part of that

[limpid summit]

It just meant he expected the most from the karaka so they might live

[spark valve]

I don't think it's problematic for the theming of the old hearts since you can draw a distinction here

[stray grove]

I would’ve liked it if there was a little more there

[ornate pier]

Eh

He has needolin dialogue where it's literally just "Let the weak crumble away!"

[spark valve]

I mean it's still act 3 silksong you can only expect so much

[ornate pier]

Well i think it applies to the coral tower memory entirely but it's probably his thoughts

[stray grove]

Pale beings are bad because of their ambition and centralizing power Khann was bad for the same reasons which even if that’s separate from his identity as a heart it’s like

Blurry

[past cypress]

This makes no sense what

[spark valve]

I think you're going out of your way to obfuscate it here

[past cypress]

Old Hearts aren't connected in lore in any way they're just powerful beings

It's not a real subtype

[stray grove]

Uhm

[sinful nimbus]

???

[past cypress]

?

[stray grove]

Maybe

[sinful nimbus]

They all have old hearts and are referred to as a group that's all that really matters

[silk dirge]

i wonder if the old hearts had like a military alliance against gms or some shit

[stray grove]

They didn’t

[past cypress]

They're referred to as a group only because of similar circumstances surrounding them (powerful non-divine leaders of old pre-citadel areas)

[spark valve]

khann saw himself as the only resistance

[ornate pier]

I don't think it was ever implied they worked together

[past cypress]

Old Heart is a title not a subtype

[ornate pier]

Yeah

[stray grove]

Only Karak even really resisted it seems

[sinful nimbus]

And they got their power in the same way

[ornate pier]

Why do they all have weird enviornmental abilities

[silk dirge]

karmelita after singing while gms destroys literally everything around

[limpid summit]

They made a bargain with the Nightmare Heart (the devil) in exchange for power

[stray grove]

It’s nature powers

[sinful nimbus]

They literally all bear hearts that are the central power of their respective regions

[ornate pier]

Same thing

[spark valve]

old hearts aren't like gods or anything but they all share a special relationship with their region

[past cypress]

Because they're leaders

[spark valve]

no

[ornate pier]

Can mortal bugs just

[stray grove]

No

[ornate pier]

Do that if they get strong enough

[spark valve]

leaders don't magically sustain the lives of the places they exist in

[silk dirge]

i think an old heart is about as close a mortal bug could get to a hb without any funny ascension shit

[stray grove]

No

The hearts aren’t normal bugs

[past cypress]

Barely any of them did that

[silk dirge]

but we dont do powerscaling talk here

[past cypress]

Karmelita only protected the Skarrs with her song

[stray grove]

They all did that did you play the game

[gentle aspen]

its passed down through the generations and tied to the lands they represent lead and inhabit

[limpid summit]

In some ways sure

[spark valve]

also if they weren't magical inheritors of strength hornet would have literally no reason to fight them

[ornate pier]

I mean this game already has extremely vague lore for all we know they could

[limpid summit]

Karm Khann are top tier

[spark valve]

that's not true

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t something any bug can do

[past cypress]

Tell me how Khann sustained the Coral Gorge please

[limpid summit]

Lower than like PV or the great knights though

Nyleth and GP lower

[past cypress]

Shellwood is still going strong without Nyleth

[ornate pier]

The only one where it seems to passed through generations is verdania?

[silk dirge]

ok yeah khann did have some magic power for sure

[ornate pier]

Am i wrong

[past cypress]

Green Prince is the only one that seems to be connected to his area

[silk dirge]

khann coralbending is cool af

[gentle aspen]

they all do

[ornate pier]

Karmelita bro

[spark valve]

khann is fucking dead shellwood is in a bad place and overrun with splinters because of nyleth's absence

[ornate pier]

How so

?

It's not stated

[past cypress]

Karmelita literally just had an anti-haunting song

It's just magic

[ornate pier]

No they literally say

[past cypress]

There's no special deeper connection

[spark valve]

no she didn't

[ornate pier]

That all of far fields will rot away after her death

[silk dirge]

we all love khann coral bending but we never ask the question of

[spark valve]

karmelita wasn't even singing by the time the haunting came

[gentle aspen]

the old hearts are literally magic and we’re directly told she’s tied to the lands

[silk dirge]

how the fuck does karmelita summon those bone spikes

[gentle aspen]

Now that she’s gone the fields will die

[silk dirge]

they just fucking appear

[past cypress]

Said by who

[gentle aspen]

You can’t say “it’s just song magic” it is the heart stuff

[past cypress]

We've literally seen song magic do fucked up shit in Pharloom

Including being the sole key to various doors

[ornate pier]

I feel like you guys are making a lot of assumptions especially for a game with vague lore and going that This specific thing has to be the case

[past cypress]

And literally forcing bugs to sing

[spark valve]

Bell Hermit: Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.
Bell Hermit: Grnk. Seek the old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strength.
Chapel Maid: They're still out there, hidden away, much faded by the pale one's long dominion. You must make them stir.
the hearts are literally magic batteries hornet is using to channel the collective power of pharloom pre gms

[gentle aspen]

????

That’s not equivalent

[past cypress]

The point is that song magic is a type of magic

[stray grove]

Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.
Grnk. Seek the old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strength.

Shamans say it’s a power in the land that was passed down to the current heart bearers

[past cypress]

And Karmelita is a stupidly strong bug

[silk dirge]

whats their magic voltage

[ornate pier]

Yes we know they are magic
But the whole idea of them being passed down from generations and interconnected is an assumption

[stray grove]

Also he literally commands the coral crust to do his bidding