sk-lore

[stray grove]

Well PK was a good dude by all accounts

[silk dirge]

no you hallucinated a new member of your coalition /j

[stray grove]

You don’t have to compare him to GMS for that to be true

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah you only have to compare him to his evil wife

[stray grove]

🥀

[pine flax]

WL slander 🥹

[pure turtle]

I don’t think his wife is bad, tbf, she neglected her children but not at bad at Pale King

[stray grove]

That wasn’t neglect

[stray grove]

I mean it is true that WL’s parallels do make PK look better in contrast

But he looks good anyway idc

[sinful nimbus]

You get it

[silk dirge]

my ass is not cooking

[pure turtle]

“I support men’s wrongs”

[sinful nimbus]

ChatGPT generate me a silksong theory pertinent to my college class

[silk dirge]

this isnt even related to any class

[stray grove]

PK never did anything wrong

[silk dirge]

its just nuclear power is a fascinating topic

[sinful nimbus]

I can respect it

[stray grove]

PK made every correct decision that’s partially the point of his character

[spark valve]

I mean he did a lil hubris but that's not evil or whatever

[pure turtle]

Not painfully neglect but does not care about the Vessels other than Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't care about Hornet either ❤️‍🩹

[stray grove]

I mean he kind of did care about them actually

[silk dirge]

pk is evil for not letting me live in hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Unless you mean WL

[foggy fractal]

I can second this

[stray grove]

He actually cared about them a lot

[spark valve]

true

[stray grove]

In fact that’s why he killed himself

[spark valve]

(so long as I get to live there long enough before the zombies)

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway the reason both parents neglected their children is because vessels weren't really meant to be children in the traditional sense

[stray grove]

It’s not neglect

Words have meanings

[sinful nimbus]

Shut up vro you know what I mean 💔

[limpid summit]

His wife bound and guarded by territorial mantises his kid about to explode his side piece asleep forever

[stray grove]

What’s more important and which you neglected to mention is they were uh also fucking dead

[pure turtle]

Damn

[silk dirge]

tk was canonically dropped on its head as a child

[limpid summit]

Why do people think he “died to Void” again

[stray grove]

Like Vessels were as far as PK/WL were concerned mindless zombies incapable of emotion or feeling

[spark valve]

they don't know kingsmoulds are void or something

[stray grove]

So how can it be called neglect

[silk dirge]

pk suicide theory is the most likely imo

[pine flax]

They were meant to act as a sacrifice for the sake of the kingdom from the start. otherwise they would not have existed at all

[sinful nimbus]

Monkeys Paw curls you get reincarnated into Hallownest as a maggot

Or a failed tramway worker

[foggy fractal]

uh oh

[limpid summit]

Imagine being a fluke living in a sewer and still having more societal standing than a maggot

[silk dirge]

fluke hermit is peak

[pure turtle]

I think that’s why Pure Vessel is imperfect because they hang out with the PK a lot.

[stray grove]

Being a maggot in Hallownest is probably still better than being a member of a marginalized group irl at least there’s less history of systemic inequality

[limpid summit]

😐

[stray grove]

There was never institutionalized maggot slavery was there

Failed Tramway workers also probably lived fine lives and freak accidents aren’t predictable

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe I should become a maggot

[stray grove]

So true bestie

[pine flax]

I mean we have no way of saying this

maggot slavery could have existed for most of the time hallownest has for all we know

[limpid summit]

Let’s build a road in Deathsville

I sure hope nothing bad happens

[stray grove]

There was no institution of maggot slavery though

Also that would probably be illegal

[limpid summit]

Couldn’t pale king have literally just done it himself

Blasted tunnels away

[stray grove]

Generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labour.

[sinful nimbus]

He's too busy concocting anti-maggot propaganda though

[stray grove]

Generally looked down upon means there wasn’t an institution

Forced to do menial labour means they couldn’t get good jobs

Not because they didn’t have the same rights as everyone else or because it was legal to discriminate against them though

[limpid summit]

Well I think it’s a little more than workplace discrimination

They were victimized and abused

[stray grove]

They were “generally looked down upon”

[limpid summit]

Forced to do menial labor isn’t like “eh I don’t like that group”

[pine flax]

Its still systemic racism and there's obviously nothing in the legal system explicitly condemns it either

[limpid summit]

It’s “I actively despise them”

[stray grove]

I mean that’s workplace discrimination

[pine flax]

If no one's really objecting to it it might as well be institutional at that point

[stray grove]

Yeah there’s systemic racism obviously nobody’s denying it wasn’t a thing

It wasn’t institutionalized though

Like explicitly

Also there are limits to what policy alone can achieve

Even if the legal system condemned it that isn’t going to stop people being racist

And realistically no one person regardless of who they were could do anything about that

[limpid summit]

That’s willful ignorance

[pine flax]

Okay yes, but policy should absolutely be able to oppose forced labour

[limpid summit]

Of course a proclamation by a god king is going to create social change

[stray grove]

It wasn’t forced labour in the way you understand it

[limpid summit]

He just didn’t care

You know it’s okay for a character to be flawed

[stray grove]

It’s saying they were forced to take the shit jobs nobody wanted because nobody else employed them

[limpid summit]

He was overall a good ruler

[sinful nimbus]

PK could've done something similar to the haunting but only for racists

[limpid summit]

You don’t have to take every point against him personally

[stray grove]

But this isn’t a flaw in his character

PK wasn’t ignorant nor was he negligent

This is just not something that could realistically be eradicated by him alone

It’s bizarre to claim he literally wasn’t doing anything about it

I’m sure there was policy in place but policy alone isn’t everything

[limpid summit]

No of course it isn’t

But it can assist greatly

[stray grove]

If you’re going to criticize PK because some of his subjects were racist then you should be able to explain what steps you think he personally should have taken in order to prevent that from happening

[stray grove]

And you assume he wasn’t doing anything

[limpid summit]

The vast majority of countries even ones with perpetuating systemic racism don’t have caste systems

And as far as I can tell none of them are ruled by god kings whose words subjects would believe as that of a divine creator

[dense ridge]

Most countries aren't made up of multiple vastly different intelligent species either

[stray grove]

It doesn’t matter who he is and gee it’s almost like religion can be used to justify this kind of thing

[limpid summit]

All persons born or naturalized in Hallownest, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of Hallownest and of the City wherein they reside. No City shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of Hallownest; nor shall any City deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It’s that easy pale king

[stray grove]

But it literally isn’t

[limpid summit]

Well yeah it’s not like racism won’t happen

[wet oriole]

does this channel allow spoilers??

[stray grove]

Do you understand what systemic racism is AppleEgg

[limpid summit]

But that should have been something he recognized towards the beginning of this rule

Yes

[stray grove]

Do you seriously think passing a single law is enough to completely eliminate its effects

Do you seriously think PK didn’t try that

[limpid summit]

Of course not but racism is generational and taught

[foggy fractal]

yes, all spoilers allowed

[limpid summit]

Over multiple generations (ruled by a god king for eternity) under laws attempting to stamp out racism, it will be vastly less spread

[stray grove]

Star’s solution of killing all of the racists is unironically more sensible than the unhelpful nonsense you’re spouting

[wet oriole]

guys, who can tell me more about widow, I knew through lore that she had her mask removed and pierced with needles so she can't produce silk but what was the reason she got in that situation(sorry for bad england if what)

[dense ridge]

You guys are arguing over like one sentence of lore

[sinful nimbus]

Probably being devoted to Grandmother Silk

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you

But I think he could just haunt them

[stray grove]

I mean neither is a good solution obviously

[robust wagon]

With what? He doesn't produce silk

[sinful nimbus]

It could be targeted because he has world sense so he could probably tell if you were racist

[stray grove]

Soul

[limpid summit]

Assuming Pale King is a completely evil flawed ruler is bad but some people would rather do a 180 and defend everything he ever did to the death

It’s pretty funny

[wet oriole]

so weavers did it to her?

[stray grove]

But taking away people’s autonomy isn’t great either obviously

[sinful nimbus]

Probably

[robust wagon]

It's likely

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King is a monster, pure and radiant

[foggy fractal]

presumably, we have no confirmation though

[dense ridge]

We don't even know what he did in this situation, if anything

[wet oriole]

but its probably the most possible reason because who else could do it

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway I thought you were all for necessary evil

[stray grove]

No you are criticizing him for something he literally had no control over lmao

[sinful nimbus]

And its not like they'd lose all their autonomy he could just take over when they're about to be racist

[stray grove]

Yeah if we assume PK never did ANYTHING wrt to maggot racism and it was perfectly legal to discriminate against them and whatever you could criticize him but that’s a bizarre assumption to make

[limpid summit]

I don’t see why you’re assuming he did something though

All we’re given is that it was a common sentiment

There’s nothing one way or the other

[stray grove]

The point is even if he did pass laws it wouldn’t do anything

To claim he just couldn’t care less is stupid

It’s inconsistent characterization

[limpid summit]

But I don’t see why this is the case

Legislation isn’t supposed to immediately put a stop to something

It’s supposed to ingrain the opposite in the public consciousness so people don’t grow up the same way they used to

[stray grove]

It’s not going to put a stop to something like this period

[dense ridge]

I thought TC were bad writers though

[limpid summit]

The reason it often fails to make lasting change is because of partisan obstruction

In Hallownest there is none

[sinful nimbus]

truuueeeee

[limpid summit]

Why not

[sinful nimbus]

Idk why we're still using it'd be bad writing as evidence

[stray grove]

Uhm

[stray grove]

Do you seriously need me to explain systemic racism to you

[sinful nimbus]

Is maggot racism the pain born of PK's dominion

[limpid summit]

Systemic racism operates due to individual bias across generations of an institution does it not

[dense ridge]

Maggots in Hallownest must be really gross to warrant the entire kingdom's disdain when one of the Five Great Knights literally collects amd stores shit

[sinful nimbus]

Ogrim might not be very liked Sheo kinda refuses to acknowledge him

[stray grove]

1 - historical inequalities such as economic imbalances would persist even after this hypothetical law was passed
2 - how would PK even enforce that lmao
3 - racism is still going to be deeply embedded in the culture
4 - implicit biases can’t be regulated by law
5 - broad legislation misses specific local realities

[dense ridge]

Oh good point

I guess no one in Hallownest likes poop bugs

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the guy with world sense would miss "specific local realities"

Good one

Its not like he has foresight either

[dense ridge]

Except the Pale King apparently

[stray grove]

I mean yeah

[limpid summit]

Wdym how would he enforce it

[stray grove]

Maggots were being discriminated against on an individual level

[sinful nimbus]

PK read every reality with his foresight and he couldn't find a single one where he could stop maggot racism

[limpid summit]

If the guy who literally created the world says something 99% of people will listen

I don’t think he’d have to tell local police

[stray grove]

Uhm no lmao

[limpid summit]

We aren’t given indication that many people who believed Pale King created the world rebelled against him for reasons other than they were infected

[stray grove]

People don’t just blindly listen to everything PK says and please don’t be intentionally dense

[sinful nimbus]

I can think of one person who blindly listens to everything PK says...

[stray grove]

Even if they did initially follow that it wouldn’t be long before the racism deeply embedded in the culture reared its head again

People aren’t just going to let go of implicit biases as soon as he says something

[limpid summit]

Then he should do it again

[limpid summit]

You’re not listening to me I see

I’ve said this like three times

[stray grove]

“Yeah PK should have just repeatedly told people not to be racist it’d eventually work”

Good one

[sinful nimbus]

What can he not fit announcing that racism was bad into his schedule?

[limpid summit]

Bro this isn’t a constitutional amendment

[sinful nimbus]

That'd be the bare minimum

[limpid summit]

This guy literally created the world in their eyes

He’s right next to them

[sinful nimbus]

He can manipulate the entire kingdoms soul to produce a region-wide message probably

[limpid summit]

The King is Law

[stray grove]

Me when I make shit up

Yeah they worshipped him and he was their king

[limpid summit]

Yeah he should have infected them and said don’t be racist

[stray grove]

SM proves that bugs can act against PK’s wishes

They aren’t blindly subservient to him

Also he’s big on the whole autonomy thing idk if you noticed

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah Soul "I LOVE THE VOICES IN MY HEAD" Master went against PK's wishes

Maybe maggot slavery was from Rad trying to mess everything up actually

[stray grove]

I mean he probably did that before the infection

And that’s not the point here

[sinful nimbus]

I dunno why PK could haunt people specifically to stop racism though

[stray grove]

The point is he doesn’t go “wow PK was so right my glorious god king I’ll never think of doing this again”

[limpid summit]

Oh believe me I know

Bum ass 💔

[stray grove]

He goes “that motherfucker! How dare he oppose me grrr”

So idk why you’d assume everyone would be incredibly open to “hey don’t be racist”

[limpid summit]

Should have researched AC lore and tried to make the Lord of Shades after THK was locked up

[sinful nimbus]

OK but the average joe who is probably racist isn't going to think that surely

Soul Master was actually delusional

[limpid summit]

He was literally infected lmao

That’s not a counter

[stray grove]

He got infected after

[limpid summit]

Xero dreamed of killing PK

“In my dreams I could see it”???

[stray grove]

When PK opposed SM he wasn’t infected

[sinful nimbus]

Kinda baffling considering that he stole everything else from the AC

[limpid summit]

You think the thing that Soul Master saw in his dreams was something he genuinely saw in his dreams

[stray grove]

Where is the claim that everyone just blindly follows everything PK tells them even coming from

[limpid summit]

Or that the pale king had opposed him before

[stray grove]

PK opposed him before

[limpid summit]

What

[stray grove]

“He opposed everything I did”

[limpid summit]

Why would SM structure the sentence like that

[sinful nimbus]

He is the most influential figure in the region

Not everyone will follow his word ofc but its better than nothing

[limpid summit]

He opposed everything I did to use Soul to end the infection

Something I saw in my dreams

[sinful nimbus]

Again you could broadcast that message to the entirety of Hallownest using soul

[limpid summit]

What are you talking about?

[stray grove]

And where is the evidence that he made no effort whatsoever to combat maggot discrimination

[sinful nimbus]

Burden of proof ain't on me dawg 🥱

[stray grove]

No it is on you actually

[sinful nimbus]

I don't have any stag in this race

[stray grove]

You’re the one making the claim that the maggot discrimination was somehow his fault

[sinful nimbus]

Was I

OK sure

[limpid summit]

I challenge you to bring up an uninfected bug that didn’t treat PK’s word as law

[stray grove]

You and Apple

Two peas in a pod

[limpid summit]

Who was not a Mantis or Bee or whatever

[sinful nimbus]

If he made any effort they wouldn't have been 'generally' looked down upon

[stray grove]

There are no examples of this either way don’t be a dumbass

[stray grove]

What does the word generally mean

[limpid summit]

The bugs believed he created the world

They would listen to him

[stray grove]

So?

[sinful nimbus]

It was a very normal thing to do

[stray grove]

This is circular

[limpid summit]

“Don’t be racist. I am your creator. This is a direct message from your creator telling you not to be racist”

I think that would stall racism for a while

[sinful nimbus]

He made lifeblood a taboo

He can make racism one too

[limpid summit]

So true

[stray grove]

He didn’t

[sinful nimbus]

WHAT

You gotta be kidding me

[limpid summit]

Actually this presents an interesting sort

[stray grove]

Taboo means prohibited by social custom not outlawed by the divine decree of a literal deity

[limpid summit]

Infected bugs like Xero and SM defy PK

[stray grove]

Baseless assertion

[sinful nimbus]

Oh but I thought people don't take the divine decrees of a literal deity seriously?

[stray grove]

Weakest members of the kingdom of Hallownest. Generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labour
The wording of this implies it WASN’T an explicit institution

[sinful nimbus]

Yea and notably the wording of my message doesn't imply it was an explicit institution

[stray grove]

???? We’re talking about making a substance illegal not something as utterly stupid as “ban racism”

[sinful nimbus]

You think banning racism is utterly stupid?

[limpid summit]

He was a little focused on this

[sinful nimbus]

So true

[limpid summit]

Oh, that’s not…

[stray grove]

SHUT UP

Anyway

If lifeblood was illegal that’s like something that could actually be enforced

[limpid summit]

By what means

[stray grove]

Idk how you can enforce people not being racist when it’s literally a systemic issue

[stray grove]

Are you fr

[limpid summit]

Substance abuse is systemic too

Don’t simplify that issue

It’s an alluring power

[stray grove]

Skull

Yeah obviously it’s very hard to actually crack down on but it’s something you can actually take realistic measures to combat

But really making substances illegal is a shitty solution

I’m just saying that it wasn’t the case here

Because the wording taboo implies otherwise

[spark valve]

Read: not a solution

Like at all

[stray grove]

I mean yeah

But that wasn’t the point idk why Apple went on a tangent

I’m just saying the wording taboo implies it wasn’t actually outlawed or anything

My point was also that Lifeblood is something PK could take realistic measures to limit the spread of if TC didn’t decide to retcon it and it always behaved like it did in SS

Which isn’t really true of maggot racism

[stray fog]

How is the maggot racism topic still going on

Its been 8 hours

[sinful nimbus]

Some people just don't want to let it die

[edgy nebula]

what in the hell is maggot racism

ive heard of slabfly racism but this is new to me

[stray fog]

Its about whether the pale king could have stopped maggot racism in hallownest

[frigid belfry]

stupid debate lmao

its incredibly difficult to control all "bug-ism" with enough political power but it surely isnt impossible especially when your people see you as a god

i just dont think its likely team cherry even thought of this scenario

more useful debating what color were thk's toenails

[foggy fractal]

black

[frigid belfry]

proof?

clearly piss green

[foggy fractal]

proof?

clearly black

[frigid belfry]

take this dimwit

[foggy fractal]

hm ?

[frigid belfry]

fake, thk is big, this guy isnt

this is clearly the pale king

[vivid kernel]

totally

[fervent sigil]

and primal aspid is clearly kratos

[zinc pumice]

this is canon

[edgy nebula]

this fool in my sk-lore. we all know the pale king is the knight, that cant possibly be the pale king

[zinc pumice]

no no hes got a point there

[hushed crater]

Wait but I thought the pale king was Karl Marx (the communist) so how can he be the knight

[solar tapir]

I suppose in both games mask shards made by mask makers, right?

[craggy smelt]

unclear

they are described as shards of an ancient mask

in the first game they look a bit like Soul Vessels, which are often found near Ancient Civilization construction

the style seems a bit different in Pharloom

they're also described as carved from pale ore, while Mask Maker uses bone

[solar tapir]

where

[craggy smelt]

inventory, when you gather all of them

An ancient mask carved from cold, pale ore.

[solar tapir]

oh

its the same description in both games?

[craggy smelt]

that's the silksong description

the first game doesn't describe what they're made of, but their style is different from the ones in pharloom

[solar tapir]

i really thought its mask makers work

didnt even check inventory for description

[viscid ridge]

I the first game its not mentioned, but im sure its the same.

[solar tapir]

What if it some limited masks made by them but from pale ore

[viscid ridge]

Maybe theres some sort of ancient mask maker who made them, but the current mask makers seem to only use bone to make their masks

[craggy smelt]

the ancient civilization might have had Mask Makers, but the ones we see in-game don't give any indication that the ancient masks are their work

[solar tapir]

fair enough

but the fact that it give us health is pure gameplay?

[craggy smelt]

they're said to strengthen the shell and protect the wearer, that's represented by extra health

you probably aren't literally wearing them

I guess they just magically blorp into your shell and strengthen it

[solar tapir]

i thought the same way actually

okay

[stray fog]

If they were born maskless

Otherwise they wouldn't

[solar tapir]

Also, who in Pharloom even wear them (regular masks) almost every bug i encounter is without mask

[stray fog]

If the masks are pale, would the ancient civilization have wanted a mask maker

I assume that they were beefing with pale

Because void

[viscid ridge]

Think of it kinda like quirrels mask, he uses it kinda like a shield, i think thats kinda how they work apart from gameplay

Or because Hornet and the knight are both pale beings, they absorb the masks into their shells and it makes them stronger or something. But its better to see the health system as pure gameplay

[stray fog]

What if the mask shaeds are pale, but the current mask makers use bone, so they have to cover the masks in pale lacquer?

[solar tapir]

magically blorp into shell

like to see it that way

[craggy smelt]

pale ore is said to be connected with Pale Beings in some unknown way, that might not have been an issue for the AC
depends on how much they really knew

certainly they had no problems with making use of Soul, they didn't necessarily shun all powers besides Void, Void was just the focus of their worship

[stray fog]

True

[craggy smelt]

the masks are made for bugs without faces at all, because not everyone has a face

[stray fog]

Because pale ore ran out or something

But where are they getting this lacquer from, assuming it is pale

[craggy smelt]

the couriers

in that case of the lacquer, it's probably pale just because it's white

and not Pale pale

[stray fog]

Where would they get that

[craggy smelt]

(there has to be SOME stuff in this game that's white but not Pale...)

[viscid ridge]

I have a theory that the pale steel is just hardened soul. And if we assume that the steel children are made of pale steel, it would explain how they are alive. But that will probably be explained in future content

[stray fog]

Pale steey?

Pale ore

?

[craggy smelt]

possibly they just make it - it can't be that hard to obtain, because they say that have lots

[viscid ridge]

And it would also explain why the ore can be found in such weird places

[solar tapir]

ye i know this, but i never take that literally

[viscid ridge]

Yeah pale ore

[solar tapir]

bug without faces at all, how that bud even eat then

[craggy smelt]

well, you might want to start, because it seems to be true
Styx doesn't seem to have a face, and uses many different masks

[stray fog]

One of the pale ore locations looks like an egg
Many mask shard locations also have eggs...

[craggy smelt]

either they still have a mouth but not the rest of a face
or
they have to put on a mask that has a mouth

[viscid ridge]

Same egg as the mask maker

Egg type*

[stray fog]

We see midwifes face beneath her mask and its just a normal face
Same with the mask makers

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i agree you can have a mouth but not have a face

[solar tapir]

that guy is the only one who pop up in mind actually

most pilgrims for example are without mask

[viscid ridge]

I think midwifes mask isnt like in actual mask like the others, its probably the same weird forelimbs that the other stalking devouts have, in the case of the mask maker are you talking about the first mask maker?

[stray fog]

Both

[solar tapir]

must check it tho

[craggy smelt]

many lack masks, but they still have faces

[viscid ridge]

To be fair the second mask makers face is in shadow, but the first mask maker seemingly is wearing 2 masks. But im sure they have real faces underneath

[craggy smelt]

Nosk is described by the Godseekers as 'ever-changing god of the faceless' - it's hard to tell what those freaks mean, but 'faceless' and 'ever-changing' is interesting

[viscid ridge]

Or maybe the mask makers are faceless? But i doubt it unless proven otherwise

[solar tapir]

and it hard to decipher what are face and what are mask, ye... alr, terible topic to dive in

[craggy smelt]

Mask Maker agrees

Is it mask or face upon the creature? In Hallownest, a difficult thing it can be to decipher.
As with Hallownest, so too with Pharloom, and everywhere I imagine...

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but some bugs have faces but without masks, like salubra fe. My best guess about what a faceless bug looks like is just with absolutely nothing, no eyes no nose no nothing

[solar tapir]

Ye, I tried to quote him

I never thought about it but

could the pale beings exist with AC in same time and outlived them?

[stray fog]

Its possible

It depends on when everblooms first sprouted

Because they're the first light

[craggy smelt]

who knows...

[viscid ridge]

My guess is yes, but only in their original forms, like the wyrm

And maybe if the radiance, and the white lady and silk existed that long before

[stray fog]

The pale king probably didn't

What would he be doing in all that time

Between the ancient civ and hallownest

[viscid ridge]

Not like he did anything, he just was doing wyrm things at that time, like eating dirt or something 🤣

[stray fog]

Lmao

[stray fog]

What if all the caves in the world are made by wyrms eating dirt

[ember river]

Burrowing around until he found his perfect kingdom

Only to then lose it to a moth

[lime nimbus]

then he found out nobody gave af

💀

[spare anvil]

Is hornet an addict?

[stray fog]

Hes a huge perfectionist if it took him that much time to settle on a kingdom

[half zenith]

Depends on player interpretation tbh. She might be normal or she might be a gambling addict, lifeblood addict or alcoholic depending on how normal you are about said aspects of the game

I personally don’t interpret flea brew as alcoholic, but you can if you want to for funnies

Same thing as “I feel like I’m disgracing Hornet when I make dumb mistakes”, or speedrunner/hitless players being canon compliant Hornet. As an ADHDer, Hornet inherits my curse of Forget and No Attention Span

[ionic basalt]

Hornet running into walls 24/7 for me

[viscid ridge]

Addicted to fluffyness

[half zenith]

But oh goodness Zylotol introducing free meth to Pharloom will NOT end well… the pilgrims already suffer enough, and post canon there’s gonna be a lot more people waking up and realizing that everything’s changed and they lost everything. The strong sense of community and support provided will likely help prevent many these people from turning to drugs to cope, but some will inevitably fall through the cracks.

Worse still is that it’s not just a drug, but something far worse if left uncontrolled

[ember river]

The thing is that it's not a recreational drug, it seems to miraculously heal wounds while corrupting your insides

So they're even more fucked

[viscid ridge]

I found this mask in mask makers room, and i think its what herrah potentially looks like. Im not saying her normal face is a mask, just that i think it couldve looked like this

Maybe just not so long

[stray fog]

Steroids

I think

Is that how steroids work

[ember river]

Steroids don't heal you

[stray fog]

They enhance your strength 0r something

Like lifeblood

[ember river]

Lifeblood was sought as medicine by Zylotol, not as some strength enhancer

Those are different things

[bleak ridge]

It's not just physically your insides, it seems to corrupt your mind aswell

Both zylotol and zango underwent major personality changes under the effects of high plasmium doses

Even hornet mentions that she barely remains sane when plasmium overdosed, not losing her mind only because of her pale nature

[frosty turret]

I thought we already know what Herrah looked like from Hollow Knight

[stray grove]

@zenith gorge different group of weavers

The Cindril Weavers are the ones who fled

The Atla Weavers conceived the plan to seal GMS and later founded the Citadel (along with the rest of the remaining Weavers)

[zenith gorge]

Ok so we are splitting groups of weavers

[stray grove]

The game clearly splits them yes

[zenith gorge]

Uhh
That’s…

[stray grove]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

This low, her gaze escaped.
Prepare, sisters. Weave hope anew.
That we might break free this accursed web born of our naive foundation.

These are clearly two separate groups

[zenith gorge]

Not super clear ?
Like we have absolutely no mention of weavers united
We know they had a bunch of nests but I don’t see any explicit mention of a slip

[sinful nimbus]

These two weavenests were going about different ways to deal with GMS

The others probably are as well

[stray grove]

We are told one group of Weavers left while GMS was awake and another group of Weavers sealed her and then made the Citadel to keep her asleep

There’s no clear separation between the Weavers who stayed behind but the Cindril Weavers are 100% a separate group

“Start anew” vs “weave hope anew”

[zenith gorge]

Or two separate times ?
They say the web is of their making (their foundation) in the second part
And in the first part they want to be free from a web

Why not assume this is the same at two different time ?

They try to contain
It fails
They try to leave

The same group at two different period

[stray grove]

What

The web is GMS

There’s nothing to suggest there was ever a failed attempt at sealing her you made that up

If there was GMS would probably have retaliated she wouldn’t just let them walk out on her

Also both of these tablets are from different weavenests

[zenith gorge]

What ?
But… there is an attempt at sealing her, called the citadel ?

weavers tried to make the citadel, it failed, they left

[stray grove]

No

I already explained this

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

The desperate tone along with the reference to GMS’ “silken sight” would indicate she was active during this period which wouldn’t track if it was post citadel since she’d be a non issue atp

Also we know what happened post citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."
They believed it would work indefinitely at the time of their death though

[stray grove]

The Weavers gave the mantle to the conductors and fucking died

Thinking it would continue indefinitely

They didn’t attempt to flee Pharloom

[zenith gorge]

I still don’t get it
Why do you want to be free if your dead like what

For me what made the most sense is that they fled, waiting for someone of silken strength to set them free… from needing to flee

[stray grove]

“We shall die”

[spark valve]

but they didn't flee they say what they do

and we see what happened to them

they died

[zenith gorge]

And also I don’t really think we can take this at super face value
That tablet is found on a conductor right ? It’s probably propaganda « it will hold forever don’t worry y’all »

[spark valve]

it's not written for a conductor

[stray grove]

🥴

[sinful nimbus]

Free as in like, no one has to keep the burden of singing anymore

[zenith gorge]

But why are you waiting to be set free if you are dead

[zenith gorge]

Is it not the tablet that the conductor has ?

[spark valve]

because death isn't freedom this is hollow knight

[stray grove]

Freedom can only be achieved if GMS is dealt with

Them overthrowing her wasn’t a triumph

It’s described as a burden, as a yoke

They’re not free until she’s out of the picture

“We shall die and wait and pray that someone strong enough to stomp her shit shows up and deals with this once and for all”

[zenith gorge]

Maybe I’m thinking too much but to me it makes no sense for them to pass the burden, and then just… die

[stray grove]

They were dying anyway

They had to pass on the burden

[sinful nimbus]

"Pharloom's fading first children" or wtv Ballador says

[zenith gorge]

So they got cancer or something

[stray grove]

Or they just… got old

Their silk was waning

And they can’t reproduce

It’s not like they were ever going to live forever

[zenith gorge]

Yeah I don’t really believe in stuff being old in the world of hollow knight but sure

[sinful nimbus]

Kid named Fayforn

[stray grove]

But stuff does get old

Like that’s canon

People get old and die

[zenith gorge]

Except when widow doesn’t

But yeah I can work with them getting cancer

[stray grove]

Widow’s silk was stuffed into her shell

Which is something the citadel also does in order to extend their lifespans

But in her case it was a form of mutilation

[spark valve]

eh idk if that's the same

but she also just isn't using her life force for spellcasting

[stray grove]

I mean yes that’s what I mean

Her not being able to utilize her silk may have had the side effect of keeping her alive

Since her life force was forcibly bound within her shell

The mechanism is probably not dissimilar

[viscid ridge]

Under her mask i mean. Probably not that much different but still

[viscid ridge]

Even though the descriptions are very similar, i think in widows case its to keep her silk in check, while in normal bugs the the needles was used to inject silk to better heal deeper organs and such

[ember river]

I always interpreted that as those weavers being the ones that remained

Because some weavers most definetely fled

[stray grove]

Read what the discussion was about

[viscid ridge]

The first weavers stayed which it is probably refering to, while the younger weavers fled pharloom, like those we see in deepnest

[stray grove]

There’s no first and younger weavers

There was only ever one generation of weavers in Pharloom, the first children

[ember river]

The discussion spanning several intertwined conversations?

[viscid ridge]

I mean widow calls herself the last of the first, so i always interpreted it as silk not creating them all at once

[ember river]

Can't you just fill me up on what's going on

[ember river]

Last of the first children of pharloom

[viscid ridge]

Yeah that makes sense, but i still doubt that they were all the same age

[stray grove]

The context is literally like two messages above #sk-lore message

[viscid ridge]

I don't wanna really use cut stuff as evidence, but all the horned weavers used to be call ancient weavers, but i get your point

[ember river]

We know weaver reproduction is extremely hard, that they're all females, and very long lived

[stray grove]

I mean it doesn’t matter

They’re still the same generation

[ember river]

Even if they're not of the same age, they're still first generation

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i get that

[stray grove]

Anyway it’s obvious from the aforementioned quote that the Cindril Weavers left while GMS was awake so this is all pointless

[ember river]

GMS was still awake?

Huh?

[stray grove]

Maybe you should read like two messages above

[sinful nimbus]

"her silken sight"

[viscid ridge]

I mean nothing about that vauge description proves she isn't asleep, cause we see her able to abserve other even while she is sleeping

[sinful nimbus]

What are they fleeing from if she can't do jack

[stray grove]

Also they’re clearly desperate

[viscid ridge]

Her waking up

[ember river]

They could have disagreed with the other weavers on whether or not the Citadel was a ticking time bomb or not

[sinful nimbus]

She wasn't doing that

[sinful nimbus]

Baseless

[viscid ridge]

I would be scared too if i drugged my mother and get out of there before she waked up lmao 🤣

[spark valve]

if they thought she was gonna break out and the other weavers didn't the rune harp addressed to them would say that lmao

[stray grove]

That also wouldn’t explain the desperate tone or the need to flee because she wasn’t going to wake up immediately and in fact still hasn’t woken up long after the least weavers uh fucking died

Also the ballador harp makes it clear they thought the citadel would hold indefinitely anything else is baseless nonsense

[sinful nimbus]

Also the fact that she only woke up because of the conductors reign

[ember river]

As if the language you use as evidence wasn't present all around, why would the weavers that "died" be hoping for someone to "weave them free" if GMS was perfectly contained for all eternity

Who would they have to be freed from

[sinful nimbus]

The burden of the Citadel

[stray grove]

Because that’s not freedom 💀

[spark valve]

the system to keep her caged which is consistently called a burden and a yoke hollow knight fan play the game challenge

[fresh badger]

Challenge difficulty: impossible

[viscid ridge]

I doubt she could do anything to them when they are that far away from her. Only other power we know is that far reaching is probably whatever controls lifeblood

[stray grove]

Are we just saying shit now

[ember river]

I forgot about a quote in the lore channel, time to commit suicide I guess

[fresh badger]

Lifeblood isnt a power wtf

Its just a thing

Theres no will in it

[ember river]

Huh?

[stray grove]

Well

[ember river]

What power are you even talking about

[fresh badger]

Kirb sybau

[stray grove]

Let’s not open that can of worms

[viscid ridge]

Lifeblood?

[stray grove]

Lifeblood is described as an alluring power though

So it’s not inaccurate to describe it as such

[fresh badger]

You know thats not what he was aying

[stray grove]

It’s also irrelevant to the current convo let’s just move on

[fresh badger]

True!

[sinful nimbus]

Top 10 journal entries

[viscid ridge]

I described power as in what actually controls lifeblood, which i think is probably a god, but as of now there isn't sufficient evidence to prove it. Thats why i said whatever is behind it

[stray grove]

Lifeblood DLC tease or something

We should do a top 10 journal entries

Right now

[viscid ridge]

Probably gonna be part of pharloom bay update

[stray grove]

#10 Underloft

Hornet thinks Hallownest was built on slave labour

#9 Conchflies

Sis think she Hunter

#8 winged lifeseed

… even I have limits

[viscid ridge]

Limits*

[stray grove]

#7 gloomsac

Do I almost feel fear?

[sinful nimbus]

1. Freshfly
2. Scabfly
3. Broodmother
4. Guardfly
5. Wardenfly
6. Gloomsac
7. Plasmidas
8. Underloft
9. Lugoli
10. Clover Dancers

[stray grove]

Bad list

Where’s Wingmould

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

Wingmould is number 6 and you can bump everything down one and remove clover dancers

[stray grove]

No keep clover dancers

Is that selfless or vain?

You can get rid of Lugoli

[viscid ridge]

My personal favorite entries are all the cogwork core robots. I love how hornet figures out what each ones function is, and then she can't figure out what the pokey ones does 🤣

[sinful nimbus]

this chef continued to devise delicacies too repulsive for any bug still sane 🗣️

(Gal who doesn't eat)

[stray grove]

There’s a lot of slab entries too

Not all of them are made equal

[viscid ridge]

Yeah all the racist ones lmao 🤣

[stray grove]

Only keep one of warden/guard

[sinful nimbus]

No

[stray grove]

I recommend guard

[sinful nimbus]

The Slab is the Expedition 33 of Journal Entries

[stray grove]

Then at least fix the ordering

[viscid ridge]

Hornet 100% hated the flukes

[stray fog]

Can't blame her

[stray grove]

Scabfly should be 1

[stray fog]

Flukes should lowkey be wiped out

[stray grove]

BM 2

[sinful nimbus]

No

[stray grove]

Actually Scabfly 1 Freshfly 2 BM 3 is fine I can accept that too

But Scabfly takes the cake

She acknowledged they’re born into servitude and in the same breath says she doesn’t give a shit

That stark contrast can’t be found elsewhere

[sinful nimbus]

"Eugenics 😍 " > "Child slaves 😒 " > "Genocide 😍 "

[stray fog]

"die out as a species" is more out of pocket

[sinful nimbus]

Scabfly is maybe the funniest

[stray grove]

If we agree then fix the ranking

[sinful nimbus]

I really can't think of the thought process it took to write that

No Freshfly is still the best

[viscid ridge]

I dont wanna sound mean but theres nothing good about them 😭

[stray grove]

Also plasmid should be here too

You know what fuck me

Do we need to extend the list

There are too many peak entries

[sinful nimbus]

I meant to do plasmid ngl

[stray grove]

Zango is good too

[stray fog]

Its ok for us to say it because video game

Hornet can't say that because its real for her

[stray grove]

And winged lifeseed

[sinful nimbus]

His final fate seems fair reward for those efforts 🗣️

[viscid ridge]

Bruh 🤣

[stray grove]

If slab entries are the e33 of Silksong journal entries then lifeblood entries are the silksong of Silksong journal entries

They get nothing

[stray fog]

Dispatch

Of journal entries

Although dispatch ain't even that good imo

[stray grove]

Pretty fucked up thing to say about sapient species born into servitude

[stray fog]

Still should've been nominated

[viscid ridge]

I love dispatch as much as the next guy, but it was never goty material. Hopefully season 2 will be

[stray fog]

It definitely wouldn't win any awards, but it should've atleast been nominated for something

It only got 1 category

[sinful nimbus]

No they get one award in a category where there's no competition

Which most silksong journals aren't

[viscid ridge]

Not all sapient species are built equally, the flukes are technically a sapient species (this is just in terms of hk not real life dont come after me)

[fresh badger]

Worse than servitude honestly, old penitent says theyre in penitence like him too

[stray grove]

😬

[fresh badger]

Sapient species born into being condemned and imprisoned

[sinful nimbus]

...and then he clicked post

[viscid ridge]

It did didn't it? I didn't watch the awards but im pretty sure it won something or got like an honorable mention or something

Yeah yeah...

[stray fog]

It didn't win anything 🔥

[sinful nimbus]

It got a nomination for players voice pretty sure

[stray grove]

I don’t even want to reply to that

[stray fog]

Wuthering waves bribed its players to win that category

[sinful nimbus]

I'm just happy Silksong didn't win man

[stray fog]

Hater

[stray grove]

If Silksong was a mobile game maybe it would have had a better shot

Still would’ve lost but I imagine there’s less competition

[stray fog]

If silksong had lootboxes

And gambling

[viscid ridge]

I dont care that silksong didn't win goty, cause it seemed pretty one sided against e33, but not winning art direction stinged

[stray fog]

A gamepass too

[stray grove]

Let’s be fr Silksong didn’t deserve jack shit

[stray fog]

And competitive ranked multi player

[sinful nimbus]

How it felt to wake up like a child on christmas morning and see that E33 sweeped everything including best narrative which Silksong wasn't nominated for ❤️‍🩹

[stray grove]

E33 has better art direction too

[stray fog]

E33 looks gorgeous

More than silksong

[viscid ridge]

Everyones entitled to their opinion

[sinful nimbus]

UE4 artstyle 🥱

[stray grove]

Yeah but only one opinion got validated 😂

E33 swept cope harder

[sinful nimbus]

Game looks like Elden Ring /negative

[stray grove]

It looks much better in motion

[spark valve]

it looks so much better what

[sinful nimbus]

I haven't played it you should know

[stray grove]

E33 feels like every area is a painting

[stray fog]

Flying gorilla 3 got robbed from goty 💔

[fresh badger]

True!

[viscid ridge]

Hey i don't think e33 has that much of an empressive art direction, but it looks way better than elden ring

[sinful nimbus]

What is this glaze

Elden Ring is pretty good looking

[fresh badger]

Anyways I thought we hated shit like tlou bc of the hyperrealism or whatever

[stray grove]

It’s not glaze it’s the most accurate way to describe it

But you wouldn’t know

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/pharrell-happy-song-cause-i'm-happy-it-might-seem-crazy-what-i'm-'bout-to-say-piece-by-piece-gif-2611474076912689826

[dire sinew]

that's an insult to paintings
-# (i have never even seen the trailer for the game)

[sinful nimbus]

Hyperrealism can be good

[dire sinew]

if you're writing a spongebob creepypasta sure

[viscid ridge]

Hehe say that again

[stray grove]

Glad to see three people got the joke

[sinful nimbus]

'Its like a dance'

[stray grove]

Star isn’t one of them

[stray fog]

I hate when the only focus is hyper realism
Like dogshit gameplay but with jiggle physics or whatever the fuck

But e33 doesn't have bad gameplay, story, etc.

[sinful nimbus]

Neat why are you pink

[sinful nimbus]

HYPER REALISM IS PEAK 💔

oh only focus

sure wtv

[dire sinew]

cuz

[viscid ridge]

I already live in hyperrealism and it sucks

[stray fog]

Yeah if your first question when you see a game is "does it have good graphics", I'm going to hang you to death

[fresh badger]

Is loz twilight princess hyperrealism

[sinful nimbus]

no vro 🥀

[dire sinew]

"video games are supposed to be an escape from real life "

[fresh badger]

I should play tp ngl I never have

[sinful nimbus]

They cranked the bloom up to 200% and drenched everything in yellow

[viscid ridge]

Yall have yall played nine sols yet? Cause i finished it the other day and its absolute peak

[sinful nimbus]

[stray grove]

No it’s not 🥀

[stray fog]

Mark any spoilers please

[dire sinew]

i played it, never finished it

too frustrating

[stray grove]

Nine Sols is slop

I don’t use that term unironically but that’s the most accurate way to describe it

It’s just slop

In every sense of the word

[sinful nimbus]

Deviator was a much better parry focused metroidvania

[stray grove]

Parry slop

[viscid ridge]

Theres a art to parry slop

[sinful nimbus]

Man up and block stuff normally with a shield

[dire sinew]

i stopped playing in the area with all the dudes in the body chopping upping area

[stray fog]

Dead cells does both

[stray grove]

Should I play tunic

[stray fog]

Dead cells my goat

[stray grove]

Speaking of slop

[viscid ridge]

It makes you actively engage with the combat instead of freaking dodging and doing 1 hit of damage every 30 seconds

[stray fog]

Actually my 4th goat

[sinful nimbus]

Err

[stray fog]

4th best game

[stray fog]

FALSE

Do not disrespect dead cells

[viscid ridge]

So you stopped at the literal first area? 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Its been enjoyable but its nothing too crazy

[stray grove]

That was a test

You pass

Tunic is mid asf

[viscid ridge]

Try deaths door, way better than tunic imo

[stray fog]

Squirrel stapler is obviously the best game of all time

[sinful nimbus]

I haven't played in a good while because there's this stupid area that ||purples everything up and blasts your ears|| 😭

[stray fog]

Thank you for marking spoilers

[viscid ridge]

Nine sols?

[sinful nimbus]

No tunic

[viscid ridge]

Oh i remember

[stray grove]

Sis won’t spoiler ss shit in hk lore but she’ll spoiler tunic shit in ss lore

Truly one of the servers of all time

[sinful nimbus]

accident vro 💔

[stray grove]

Just don’t spoiler anything

[sinful nimbus]

OK who wants to talk outer wilds

[stray grove]

Wait

[viscid ridge]

Im also heavily into blasphemous

[stray grove]

Anything but that

[viscid ridge]

Absolute peak

[sinful nimbus]

OK who wants to talk E33 story

[stray grove]

You can spoil E33 idc

But there’s a special place in hell for people who post OW spoilers

[stray fog]

Mark spoilers for that too

[viscid ridge]

OW?

[stray fog]

And that too

I haven't played anything bro

Wtf

[viscid ridge]

I might be braindead but i think of overwatch ?

[sinful nimbus]

outer wilds

[stray fog]

Outer wilds

[viscid ridge]

You should expand your gameplay

[stray fog]

I have a list of like 80 games that I need to play

[viscid ridge]

Shii i haven't played yet, i heard its good tho

[stray fog]

Exams are lowkey rawdogging me rn so I can't play anything

[viscid ridge]

Honestly rougelikes are keeping me occupied

Which game won game of the year last time?

[stray fog]

Astrobot

[viscid ridge]

Obviously the judges didn't play balatro yet

[mossy jungle]

Guys, I have a conundrum: how do you headcanon that the ‘full chamber’ that was sent to capture hornet before the game managed to follow GMS’s orders despite travelling a massive distance away from her?
Does having that much silk in them grant the envoys a connection to mother silk regardless of the distance from her?
Do they somehow regain control, look at the choral commandment, and follow its order without asking any questions?
Are they alive, haunted pilgrims that were ‘promoted’ to envoys and still believe the illusion that the citadel is active, somehow?

The question arises mainly because, in the cut ending where GMS absorbs Hornet’s power, her ‘range’ is expanded to the borders of Pharloom (and possibly beyond), reaching pilgrims that didn’t even arrive at bone bottom yet
This question can also be applied to all previous ‘expeditions’ GMS sent to retrieve weaver descendants

…would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[mossy jungle]

I agree btw, I’m just glad I finished OW without any spoiler whatsoever.

[limpid summit]

This is a bit weird yeah because the Weavers obviously escape her silken sight by going far enough away

Maybe the Haunting allows for a measure of ranged command

Like that’s the only thing that makes sense

[stray fog]

I guess the haunting doesn't depend on distance if the bug is already haunted

They don't get disconnected from gms

[mossy jungle]

But then the cut ending comes into view: is it just retcon, or would it still apply?

Very difficult to say

[stray fog]

What do you mean

[mossy jungle]

There is a cut cutscene in the files for a supposed bad ending, where hornet fails to bind GMS at the end of the fight and she binds her instead: the view then shifts to the entrance of Pharloom, where spreading silk strings attach to pilgrims yet to arrive in Pharloom

You can find it on youtube

[young dune]

cut content shouldnt be considered for lore

[mossy jungle]

Ik ik, it is just for theorising’s sake, since I couldn’t find an explanation with the information we had

[stray fog]

I know but how does it relate to the bugs who captured hornet

[unique canopy]

They're still choristers of sufficient loyalty that they were granted the position of being in that chamber in the first place. Even before the Haunting, they wouldn't have been elevated to that station without demonstrating that loyalty, and that goes doubly for whoever would be designated in command of that chamber.

The way the Citadel was set up, the choristers themselves wouldn't have even needed to have been Haunted to follow orders. "Yes sir, capture the Weaverspawn, for the glory of the Citadel eternal, as you wish sir."

[mossy jungle]

It relates mainly because this cut ending assumes that GMS’s haunting has a ‘range’ and absorbing hornet allows her to expand it beyond pharloom, from what I gather

[stray fog]

The chamber is different because it was already haunted and then it went to hallownest

[limpid summit]

Regardless it being cut mean that the range doesn’t exist anymore

I think she just isn’t able to stretch silk into the wastes and snare whoever

Once you’re haunted you’re haunted it’s inside you

And it’s physical

[mossy jungle]

Exactly, they may have just retconned it, I was entertaining the hypothesis that they didn’t

[limpid summit]

Eh maybe

Who knows

[mossy jungle]

Yes, maybe this is the case: once you’re haunted, you remain haunted everywhere you go, but GMS can’t just spread her silk across the continent

[unique canopy]

We know from lore tablets and areas like Greymoor that the silk experiments and exhaust system caused silk to saturate the air and water, which is how it ended up in almost every living creature of Pharloom. So it would depend on how far that air and water travels outside of the immediate Citadel area. It has to travel some distance since pilgrims from beyond the game setting get Haunted, but there's also an outer edge of Pharloom where people like Shakra's tribe live that's seemingly unaffected, and because of that it's reasonable to assume anything beyond that is completely unaffected.

[stray grove]

GMS doesn’t have infinite range

[silk dirge]

i mean the silk being everywhere in pharloom is how people get haunted anyway

what

[stray grove]

If GMS could ensnare people with her silk regardless of distance every weaver and weaver descendant outside of Pharloom would be in for a bad time

[spark valve]

the 'god' of silk when confronted with an animal that's 2 inches above her and therefore out of her range of influence

[limpid summit]

<@&283547423706447872>

Bet

[silk dirge]

wtf was that about

[limpid summit]

Dude a reply???

[spark valve]

a scam

[limpid summit]

These bots getting smarter

[stray grove]

Primal source of silk ahh

[balmy reef]

yo hey apple

[spark valve]

ig being the source of it doesn't mean she can do shit with it

[balmy reef]

been a minute

[silk dirge]

i mean none of the silk reached them presumably

[limpid summit]

Yo what’s up necro

Likewise dude good to see you

[mossy jungle]

Wait what, I barely missed, what was it?

[balmy reef]

silksong had you crawling back huh

[limpid summit]

Genuinely yes

[silk dirge]

some sort of weird discord scam

idk

[spark valve]

yeah that's why they're out of range it only goes down

[sinful nimbus]

haunting works on gravity duh

[silk dirge]

i guess gms cant phase through the top of cradle

L higher being

[stray grove]

I mean yeah she’s pretty limited but that kind of works within the context of the narrative

[unique canopy]

There is some silk in the Nameless Town when you play the needolin for the memento

[balmy reef]

she has a cone of attack

[mossy jungle]

Exactly, that’s why I considered her influence limited

[limpid summit]

If we believe the City of Steel -> the Masters, how did they let a Weaver escape and only kill a few choir members

[silk dirge]

i think the way it works is gms has unlimited control of whoever has her silk inside them

[mossy jungle]

Wherever we read needlolin dialogues, the strings that appear are pointing to the cradle

[spark valve]

This surface dweller is free of Silk. Its nature remains its own. The monarch's influence must only have stretched below it.
what a fraud

[limpid summit]

They are?

[stray grove]

The point of GMS is she’s a big fish in a very small pond. Whereas the point of, say PK is that he’s a big fish in a big pond and despite having every advantage and making every correct decision he still failed because his was an impossible task
And of course Radiance is a formless enemy impossible to fight since she’s meant to represent nature and the inevitable death of all things etc

[limpid summit]

Every correct decision

🤪

[stray grove]

I mean yeah

[silk dirge]

i mean its possible steel city killed a few choir members

trying to make sure they dont get their precious slave captured or smth

[limpid summit]

Yeah but only a few

[sinful nimbus]

Sawblading the palace up wasn't really a great decision in hindsight

[limpid summit]

Not even a full chamber to fight them

Are they bums

[silk dirge]

maybe steel city are frauds

we dont know

or maybe that weaver wasnt actually that important

[stray grove]

I mean the saws are probably abstract but even if they were intentionally placed I don’t know what the issue with them is

It’s not like PK was expecting guests

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but there was a guest so he shouldn't have done that

[mossy jungle]

It might be below their inscrutable plans

[limpid summit]

Do you think if PK was alive to see us walk in he’d die out of grief anyway

[silk dirge]

if i ever make my own theme park id make a white palace themed resort

[stray grove]

It wouldn’t make any sense for him to be alive

[silk dirge]

sawblades everywhere

your bed is sawblades

[mossy jungle]

I believe city of steel works very much like mechanus in dnd, but we shall see (I hope)

[silk dirge]

itd be peak

[spark valve]

they might have sent a full chamber the cradle tablets aren't the orders they're the reports

[limpid summit]

That’s not an answer to my query

[spark valve]

they say how many died to the task not how many were assigned

[stray grove]

Well it’s a dumb query

He has to be dead for TK to inherit the kingdom’s future

[mossy jungle]

That’s true

[stray grove]

King’s Brand might not even work if PK isn’t dead

[spark valve]

and they lost like 20 bugs to the steel city

[limpid summit]

I guess they did lose the most yes

But no Reed

Did they send a Reed to Hallownest

[stray grove]

They sent a full chamber

[silk dirge]

i wonder what a full chamber implies

does that mean they just sent

a full hhg

[gentle aspen]

why…would he?

[silk dirge]

after hornet

[spark valve]

a chamber choir is like 8-40ish?

[limpid summit]

There’s some music stuff someone used to figure out a full chamber

[mossy jungle]

We don’t know, learning what is the composition of a full chamber would be very useful but we have no information on that

[unique canopy]

A Reed are the flying guys with pins, the big huge guys are Grand Reeds

[limpid summit]

Oh yeah I forgot

[silk dirge]

i mean the common interpretation ive seen is that they are basically sending over high halls gauntlet to capture hornet

[stray grove]

Grand Reeds are washed anyway

[gentle aspen]

if it’s a chamber orchestra it’d be max of 50

[stray grove]

But I’d imagine there were a couple sent to Hallownest

[spark valve]

possible the names are a coincidence but like seems like it could be applicable

[silk dirge]

grand reeds are goated enemies tho

they have crazy movesets for a regular enemy

[stray grove]

Obviously we don’t know the specifics but it’s safe to assume they sent a lot of dudes to Hallownest

More than anywhere else anyway

[silk dirge]

yeah

[spark valve]

or at least the maximum, they may have sent as many other places

[frigid belfry]

wasnt the entire point of hhg narratively to represent hornet overcoming the challenge that brought her to pharloom

the one we fight is the chamber

[mossy jungle]

It would be very weird to send ministers, actual parts of the governing body of the citadel before the haunting, to go in an expedition into foreign land, unless it was diplomatic in origin: but the citadel isn’t known for being diplomatic…

[silk dirge]

also on this topic someone made a cool interpretation of the first 1/8th weaver

let me find it

[unique canopy]

It's funny seeing the lore tablets talk about how many Envoys were lost.
Like, we need to capture a Weaverspawn, let's send out a few dozen guys to smack people around with bells

More guys with actual needles and artificial silk skills? Nah, more bell-staves

[mossy jungle]

I respect them too, they are cool, together with maestros

[stray grove]

The envoys’ job is probably coordinate the other choirbugs

[spark valve]

gms was the one who sent the expeditions they don't have to respect rank in the citadel, but yes it seems unlikely the high hall gauntlet was a similar group because uh hornet would probably say that in a journal entry

[silk dirge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1pk19tz/silk_heart_part_1_oc/

this was pretty cool

[limpid summit]

1x Choristor, 1x Reed, 1x Envoy
2x Choristor
1x Choir Bellbearer, 1x Reed, 1x Clawmaiden
2x Minister, 1x Clawmaiden
2x Maestro
1x Choir Clapper
1x Choir Bellbearer, 2x Reed, 1x Clawmaiden
2x Choir Bellbearer, 1x Choristor
1x Choir Bellbearer, 2x Minister
1x Maestro, 1x Reed
2x Choir Clapper

I don’t think this is the full chamber

[frigid belfry]

probably a smaller version

[limpid summit]

Maybe?

No like it would have to be bigger

Unless they sent different delegations

Twelve envoys got killed by sharpe

[frigid belfry]

or it was just 100 choir clappers and 15 or something envoys

[mossy jungle]

Take this also into consideration

[limpid summit]

True

[stray grove]

Sharpe doesn’t exist

[spark valve]

there's no reason to think the high halls gauntlet is a chamber it doesn't even have enough of the right kinds of enemies nor are clawmaidens ministers maestros clappers etc reported lost in any cradle tablet

[mossy jungle]

Yet.

[stray grove]

Why would they send Ministers or Maestros

[silk dirge]

i mean there are ministers in the cradle

so its not completely impossible ministers were sent

[stray grove]

Clawmaidens it’s reasonable to send and they probably don’t have to be reported lost because they’re like artificial

[silk dirge]

unless they were just responsible for writing shit down once they reached the cradle

[spark valve]

I doubt clawmaidens can leave the citadel

[stray grove]

I mean that too

[silk dirge]

also a maestro would probably not be able to do anything bc they cant call their cogfly arsenal

[mossy jungle]

I don’t think clawmaidens can operate outside of the citadel: they are literally held up by silk string from the big one in high halls

[stray grove]

I mean I don’t think portable clawmaidens are that far fetched

[spark valve]

you'd just need to carry an absurd amount of silk to keep them fueled

[mossy jungle]

Cog flies seems to be autonomous since they can be used by hornet wherever, but that doesn’t mean that maestros would be going outside of pharloom: they are kind of big shots

[silk dirge]

yeah but thats just bc hornet can craft them

maestros in high halls call them up from the arsenal

which is where you make the cogfly tool

[stray grove]

They don’t have to be active all the time my thought was they’d deploy them as a means of stealing weaver silk

[mossy jungle]

True…

[spark valve]

ok but like that's what the rune cage is for anyways

[whole holly]

am i only one who thinks GMS is less threatening and interesting boss than radiance?

[stray grove]

Yeah but you actually have to get the weaver in the rune cage

[gentle aspen]

no but that isn’t a lore conversation

[spark valve]

which isn't hard wardenflies just bash her with it

[stray grove]

It’s probably hard

[stray fog]

What's a weaver gonna do when 20 bugs jump her at once

[stray grove]

Otherwise they wouldn’t have lost so many

[whole holly]

even lore-wise, as well

[stray grove]

I mean probably kill a lot of them

[stray fog]

Still, they'll succeed in capturing her because of sheer numbers

[stray grove]

Also 20 guys attacking all at once is unrealistic be fr

They’re probably fight until the weaver was exhausted and no longer capable of resisting and yes they had the numbers to do that

[stray fog]

True

[mossy jungle]

Yes, but I would argue that the way she is set up makes it understandable: it’s a bit far fetched, but I believe GMS has remained captured for far more time than radiance, and she has weakened in accordance to that

[stray grove]

I mean that’s not true

[mossy jungle]

It’s up in the air, really

[stray grove]

We don’t have an exact timeline but both Radiance and GMS were sealed away for several generations

WL says Rad has been sealed for “ages”

But this is also a moot point because Rad isn’t weakened as a result of her sealing

GMS is weak because she’s been constantly getting drained of silk in that time

[mossy jungle]

It’s just that, after radiance is sealed, hallownest remained in stasis: after GMS was sealed in Pharloom by the weavers, a LOT of shit happened in between, including the weavers leaving and the rise and fall of the citadel

[gentle aspen]

That isn’t really true either

[whole holly]

i like weavers being expanded lore-wise and GMS being behind everything is underwhelming, i though Song would be Game mechanic equally to how silk is and both narrative forces that equally played role in Silksong, similar to how Essence and Soul had major presence in Hollow Knight first game, Song being way to access memories is meh as well

[gentle aspen]

the stasis is a metaphorical thing it isn’t like stuff didn’t happen after she was sealed

[stray grove]

The stasis lasted several generations and Radiance remained chained for “ages” afterwards
The Weavers who left Pharloom left before GMS was sealed

[limpid summit]

I wonder if the slabflies are part of the chamber

[whole holly]

there should be alternative to essence particles, like Music Particles

[limpid summit]

They would certainly help by slowing the weaver

[gentle aspen]

god no

[limpid summit]

Hornet killed them all first

[stray grove]

There’s no timeline so idk why you’d bother trying to compare this anyway

[gentle aspen]

that’s just repetition for repetition’s sake

[mossy jungle]

No of course, it wasn’t literal stasis, I meant it more like nothing happened at the level of a structured society: the small communities we find in hallownest have little history of “before” except for the mantis tribe

[stray grove]

The timing also just doesn’t matter the reason GMS is weak and Rad isn’t is because they are different beings with different abilities in different circumstances

[gentle aspen]

because said small communities only would’ve arisen after the fall of the kingdom?

Aside from like

[stray grove]

GMS’ been betting drained of her lifeforce Rad hasn’t

[gentle aspen]

the hive and the colosseum I guess

[spark valve]

events you can place relative to each other are like
cindril weavers arriving in hallownest before infection
weavers going back during events of hk
silksong being after hk

[whole holly]

i mean, Silk being integral part of song through memories and needolin ability diminishes importance of song as mechanic, it doesn't have to be music particles but TC should have made Song gimmicky in my opinion, i know word gimmick has bad perception but still, song should have been force by itself

[gentle aspen]

Silk isn’t necessarily integral to song pretty sure

[limpid summit]

I like how the one through line to the Weavers Hornet has is the group that didn’t live through any of the game’s events

[stray grove]

But given we don’t know exactly how long the stasis lasted or how long it took to seal GMS after the Cindril Weavers left or how long Hallownest was in ruin for before GMS broke free or how much time passes between HK and SS we can’t compare how long Rad was sealed for relative to GMS

[spark valve]

yup

[mossy jungle]

Yes, I kind of got carried off, my point was that it is difficult to compare the time that has passed in hallownest from the moment radiance was sealed with the time that has passed after the weavers captured gms, because not much is told of ‘what remained of hallownest’ after the radiance was sealed and before the knight arrives

[gentle aspen]

weavers use silk in order to perform songs but that’s like, their modus operandi

[spark valve]

don't even know how long after cindril weavers leaving the citadel was built

[whole holly]

but honestly Elegy of Deep and Bellbeat's Song as well as was great but why is Needolin Weaver ability

[stray grove]

Snail

[mossy jungle]

I’m starting to think this comparison is unfeasible in the first place

[stray grove]

The comparison doesn’t make sense yes it also doesn’t matter

[gentle aspen]

that’s true yes

[gentle aspen]

you’re asking why strumming a needle in a manner similar to a stringed instrument is tied to the weavers?

[whole holly]

i did say through needolin and memories (silk related) how could i have emphasized this more? maybe i overstated silk's role but silk is still part of needolin ability and memories, which are both Song-related mostly

[spark valve]

imagine if tc actually did anything with the sequel bait instead of apparently just forgetting it existed

[stray grove]

Again, GMS is weakened because she’s has been getting her silk drained for god knows how long
Rad is not weakened in any meaningful way her influence is just limited

They are very different beings

[gentle aspen]

Yes, because that’s the only way Hornet can do the whole song thing

I guess she didn’t get her dad’s pipes

[limpid summit]

Well it’s a valid question

Because the needle in question is a bee needle

[gentle aspen]

that is entirely irrelevant

[mossy jungle]

Yes, and this is a fact
GMS also created lace and phantom, and I figure that was no small effort