sk-lore

[limpid summit]

No they’re expressions of Phantom’s rage

[mighty kraken]

oh ok

[lethal burrow]

we know the gilding was the conductor. But he speaks of unadorned stone, which was presumably weaver times

[cyan lynx]

Sorry to butt it in the middle of a conversation, but are there any analyses of the tablets in the Ruined Chapel? I'd like to read some more interpretations of them

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the holy aspect of the pilgrimage as a self sustaining entity was created by the Weavers

[limpid summit]

The spell recipes?

[cyan lynx]

Those ones, yeah

[stray grove]

I mean the weavers were themselves considered divine and worshipped

[lethal burrow]

I don't know about rage specifically because they tell you to leave and that there's nothing here so more like despair?

[limpid summit]

Well we know Snail Shamans use tons of corpses already

[stray grove]

Serving the weavers would itself be considered a holy task

[lethal burrow]

I've seen nobody care about those and just brush them off as spell recipes I don't have the mind to analyze them, but I think they're probably something more than people give them credit for

[limpid summit]

Yes ofc but none of the effigies mention the Citadel

I get it’s not really relevant

[mighty kraken]

does anything in weavers den from hollow knight link to anything in silksong, or no not really

[stray grove]

It’s not relevant

Also what does it matter

[frosty gate]

Yes the horrendous propaganda machine is placed in a weird place for the Timeline.

He speaks of Stone while being made of metal, so he is very early in the Citadel but after the Forgebugs were hired and maybe before First Architect?

[stray grove]

Genuinely what is the distinction you are trying to make

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the Weavers sustained the concept of the pilgrimage at the same time as their use of whispers to lure bugs in is what I’m saying

They may have built it up themselves after a while though

When they had enough willing workers

[cyan lynx]

That's sorta what I thought they were, but they're really cryptic. The first one sorta sounds like a Vengeful Spirit, but I have no clue what the other could be

[frosty gate]

So around here

[mighty kraken]

wait did the haunting occur after the weavers fled pharloom or whilst it was happening

[stray grove]

The Weavers lured bugs with song to serve in their web of service eternal and the bugs in question also worshipped them as divine beings it was seen as a holy task this distinction is meaningless

[limpid summit]

After

[lethal burrow]

he speaks of the citadel being handed off to the conductors, so it's fair to say he's from the in-between. But the stone then is referring to not the conductor, but the Weaver, and therefore the pilgrims

[stray grove]

By that logic most of the pilgrims are “willing”

What’s your point

[limpid summit]

The rune harp timeline leads us to logically assume that the fleeing Weavers in fact fled pre Citadel

So way after

[lethal burrow]

also, if the pilgrimage wasn't a thing under the Weavers, then how did the conductors happen because I doubt it was just the nameless town people running the place and then suddenly the conductor showed up?

[limpid summit]

What

Why would they do both at the same time

[mighty kraken]

so was widow basically a weaver that remained loyal to gms. also why was here mask and silkproduction abilities removed

[limpid summit]

They lured enough bugs until they were seen as gods and didn’t have to manually draw them in anymore

How does that not make sense you’re complicating things

[stray grove]

They always needed more

[frosty gate]

That stupid fucking propaganda machine makes my life worse each time it's mentioned

[stray grove]

That they didn’t have to manually draw them in anymore would undermine your argument

[limpid summit]

What is my argument??

Classic new user

[stray grove]

Well if even you don’t know what you’re arguing what am I supposed to tell you

I was trying to be polite there’s no reason to make a poor attempt to discredit me because I’m “new”

This channel is seriously elitist

[limpid summit]

If they had bugs already singing their praises and flocking to them why would they need to exert effort to grab more

[lethal burrow]

I think it could go either way

[stray grove]

Because the citadel isn’t sustainable

[lethal burrow]

Bingo

[stray grove]

They would always have needed new bugs to replace the ones who couldn’t participate in the song anymore

[limpid summit]

And the pilgrimage would have supplied those bugs

[stray grove]

So… we agree

[lethal burrow]

Things that conflict with one's theories are annoying I understand

[limpid summit]

Yes I’m glad you agree with me

[half zenith]

Hornet’s reaction to Second Sentinel attacking her is so funny. Her sincere reaction is basically “I thought we were friends :(”

[stray grove]

I think it’s strongly implied that the Cindril weavers departed long before the citadel if that’s the topic of conversation

[frigid belfry]

whats the debate this time

[half zenith]

(They spoke literally twice before this)

[frosty gate]

Ok, so.

First Architect was made by Weavers and made the Sentinels, who were Gilded, but Isamor says everything was stone while being made of metal, I do not get this NPC because every time it speaks It confuses the Timeline more

[stray grove]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

The desperate tone along with the reference to GMS’ “silken sight” would indicate she was active during this period

[limpid summit]

Do we think the Weavers specifically coded the Sentinels with directives to annihilate haunted bugs (as in they knew what GMS had the potential to do)

[stray grove]

It wouldn’t make sense for this to be post citadel as GMS would be asleep

[limpid summit]

Or is second sentinel just extrapolating

Silk guys bad

[frigid belfry]

possible they werent originally gilded and simply remodeled nowadays

[stray grove]

The weavers didn’t make the sentinels

[frosty gate]

It also talks about the Weavers leaving to "Us", us being the Conductors

[frigid belfry]

eh secsecn can barely differentiate, i just assume its intelligent enough to recognize enemies

[frosty gate]

Hopefully, but why not show an early version of the Sentinels I sweaaar

[stray grove]

No it’s recognizing GMS’ silk

[lethal burrow]

I've set my peace on this before but like...

why? Why did they flee and why did some of them not flee and why did they flee then

what's the point of it? Like why did they flee and why did others not flee and why did they flee when they decided to flea?

[stray grove]

The reason second sentinel attacks Hornet is because her body contains silk that has similar properties of that within the haunted bugs

[frigid belfry]

would preciate to hear this evidence

[lethal burrow]

did the Weavers flee when grandmother silk was starting to wake up or before she was ever put to sleep

[frosty gate]

Before

[limpid summit]

Before

[stray grove]

You believe me haunted, a slave to the pale threads? I think you are more perceptive than that. My Silk is my own, as is my will.
Unsure, is this sentinel. B-both haunted and innocent, you seem. With regret, this sentinel must t-t-test the strength of your will.

[lethal burrow]

I think it's fair to say that he's referring to the structures and not necessarily the creations

[frigid belfry]

before

[frosty gate]

Cyndril Weavers just said that they were leaving, I personally picture Cyndril Weavers leaving as the same time as Atla Weavers trap GMS

[frigid belfry]

this doesnt necessarily imply it was given the ability to specifically recognize the haunting by the weavers

[lethal burrow]

"protect the Citadel and the voices that fill it."

that's the directive, that's a specific as we are led to believe it is.

Second Sentinel is just interpreting that as protecting the still sane people from the haunted people

[limpid summit]

The Ballador rune harp about waitint for a Weaver messiah to return only really works if

1. the other Weavers left a long time ago
2. all the Weavers in Pharloom by then are entombed

[frosty gate]

I mean sure, but aren't bell structures? Those are made of metal. They used metal during Weaver times, it just wasnt gilded

[mighty kraken]

wait guys what if gms created the weavers because she herself didnt have enough silk to cover all of pharloom, hence areas of pharloom arent completely possessed like bonebottom whereas bellhart was because of widows presence. but once the weavers left she commanded servants of the citadal to kidnap weavers for her to bind so for a brief period of time she would have sufficient silk. obviously this wouldnt last infintely and she would need to kidnap more weavers.

[limpid summit]

This prolly isn’t the case

[half zenith]

No it’s so fucking obvious that Second Sentinel wants to kill itself. With a request name like “final audience”, and the fact that their needolin thoughts are about how they’re alone, it’s obvious… it literally asks for Hornet to kill it when she wins the battle

[limpid summit]

We aren’t given much of an indication that she wanted to ensnare anyone but the Weavers at least pre sealing

[half zenith]

Their excuse about testing whether Hornet is haunted is so flimsy, they know damn well Hornet isn’t haunted, they just want her to fell them in combat

[frigid belfry]

ehh no, gms wants weavers to bind to herself to wake up, widow says this

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but bells aren't adorned in metal they're completely made of it.

Form over function, they are not lavish adornments

[mighty kraken]

oh

[limpid summit]

I mean she is a robot it’s fair for her to be wary

She has foreign silk that’s within the bounds of her programming

[stray grove]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

The desperate tone along with the reference to GMS’ “silken sight” would indicate she was active during this period. So it wouldn’t make sense for this to be post-citadel as GMS would be asleep and they wouldn’t have much reason to desperately attempt to escape her “silken sight”

I think the above makes it very clear why they fled. Why did some of them not flee? They may not have considered that an option, that GMS was always watching them, or… they were secretly making plans to overthrow her, as we know another group of weavers was doing

Why did the ones who fled decide to flee then? I mean the above dialogue makes it pretty clear they saw an opportunity to get out and took it, I’m not sure what the point of these questions is

[edgy nebula]

second sentinel is an old robot, i wouldnt doubt that they physically cant tell, since with the haunting the silk is wrapped around their organs

[stray grove]

Also you could ask these same questions of the weavers who decided to stay

[limpid summit]

Regardless of the timeline more the Weavers were split

Some undeniably left some undeniably stayed

[lethal burrow]

That's a good idea. I haven't heard before, but it needs to be looked into more before it can be solidly denied or be taken seriously

[frigid belfry]

my interpretation sis that the weavers were politically split on their plan, some wished to kill gms via traps/hb weaver, and some just wanted to flee

[limpid summit]

So like asking why is like

I dunno why not

That’s what they did

It just makes the most sense that they fled pre Citadel

[stray grove]

I mean yeah it’s just begging the question atp

[lethal burrow]

?

[half zenith]

That’s true, but… haunted bugs behave in a very noteworthy way. Simple observational skills can prove that Hornet isn’t haunted.

[frigid belfry]

wtf is with that weaver in hk deepnest btw

[limpid summit]

Which is why they have a GMS sized Seal of Binding in their den

[stray grove]

Oh my god

[mighty kraken]

thats what i was saying

[stray grove]

Are you serious?

[limpid summit]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

we don't know lmao

[limpid summit]

I believe that if Rad didn’t break out the Weavers would have departed anyway with Pale King’s sealing knowledge

[edgy nebula]

haunted bugs can still read and write, and as i said before second sentinel is an old robot facing a new force they dont know what to do with

[frosty gate]

With that considered, would you agree Whiteward was made during and by Weavers? But also after Sentinels

[limpid summit]

And attempt to seal GMS themselves

[mighty kraken]

wait i wonder if that secret room with the rune on the wall was a map of pharloom or other locations that weavers fled to

[frigid belfry]

"Union upon your thread... A gift, for your waking. A world strung to serve.. "" "Spawn of those who dared to flee. She has found her way home... at last.
How fine her shell, and Silk, and claw... For you, mother... let me claim her all for you"

[limpid summit]

As they didn’t know she was already asleep

Or asleep awake

[stray grove]

This is stupid. Why would they go back?

[limpid summit]

Well the only reason they fled was because they saw no other option correct

[stray grove]

The aforementioned text makes it clear they never had any intention of doing so

[edgy nebula]

it's described as something along the lines of "twisted roads away from pharloom" iirc

[lethal burrow]

I don't know about after the sentinel, but I am of the belief that it is a Weaver thing if not directly then at least during their time, now whether that means they specifically did the injection experiments who knows but

[stray grove]

Also the SoB in the Den is not GMS-sized, nor is it even functional

[limpid summit]

They’d lived in the presence of another pale being and assumedly seen it seal another higher being

[stray grove]

There is also nothing to indicate that would be a viable method of sealing her

[limpid summit]

That would change their minds

[frigid belfry]

its for the black egg was it not?

[limpid summit]

I mean duh

The infection happened

They didn’t finish the seal

[frigid belfry]

and didnt the weavers share their sealing methods/runes with hallownest?

[stray grove]

It is far more likely that the Pale King simply commissioned the Weavers to design the seal

[limpid summit]

They shared their runes

[lethal burrow]

I don't think she's particularly capable of binding when she's asleep

[limpid summit]

PK seals stuff on his own

[frosty gate]

Sorry, I meant Architects. On the other hand, I think they probably played a hand on the Surgeries, but honestly it's no man's land, no proof regarding either argument so I don't put too much thought on it

[stray grove]

Me when I make shit up

[lethal burrow]

it's not stupid. It just has a little evidence.

It's a good headcanon I'd say

[limpid summit]

First sinner invented rune techniques

[stray grove]

I mean the Weaver lore back in HK was very different

[stray grove]

Not what that says actually

[frigid belfry]

she isnt physically sleeping, shes somewhat conscious and wants to break out, its not a stretch to say she could consume a dead hornet delivered by widow

[stray grove]

It says she was the first to weave SILK into blazing runes

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers returning to Pharloom got retconned sorry

They ain't there 🥀

[lethal burrow]

So is she bound or is she not?

[stray grove]

It doesn’t say she’s the inventor of runes and that every usage of runes in universe ever can be traced back to her

[foggy fractal]

hollow knight retconsong is back on the menu ?!

[stray grove]

PK doesn’t use silk as a medium

[frigid belfry]

she is, she is unable to escape

[lethal burrow]

just cause they left doesn't mean they succeeded in returning

[frosty gate]

Actually this can't be right, Second is Gilded and its, well, the second

[lilac hedge]

They locked discussion so hi guys

[frigid belfry]

why?

[edgy nebula]

they probably got beat to death by the judges or something

[lethal burrow]

OK how could she consume hornet then if she's inside the silk ball and hornet is outside of it

[stray grove]

It’s more that them attempting to return to Pharloom kind of doesn’t make sense in the context of the new weaver lore

[frosty gate]

God I hope its such a dumb debate

[frigid belfry]

wtf happened

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but cmon that's not good writing and them returning to Pharloom doesn't make sense in light of the Cindril Rune Harp

[lilac hedge]

Someone asked to but its back so nvm

[mighty kraken]

widow just has to say garama then gms will wake up and bind hornet

there

[viscid ridge]

I kinda think that the reason they went back is because they thought the grand mothers seal was still working properly, only to find out that she was controlling a vast amount of pharloom. So they went from one awful situation to another

[frigid belfry]

the silk ball isnt unbreakable, its constantly extracted for silk

[stray grove]

They left before she was sealed

[limpid summit]

TK is a bit less than 1 lace tall

[lethal burrow]

Why doesn't she wake up like I don't know like five hours before we show up

[limpid summit]

Idk with a little bit of this a little bit of that

[viscid ridge]

How would you come to that conclusion?

[limpid summit]

I think they were in fact fine tuning the Pale King’s seal adjusting it for GMS

[lethal burrow]

can you use the Sprite where the hollow Knight has its armor on and doesn't have gamer back

[stray grove]

#sk-lore message

[viscid ridge]

Oh its just a misunderstanding, im talking about leaving hallownest

[frigid belfry]

she physically cannot, which is why she needs weavers to be binded to her to accelerate her waking process

[limpid summit]

In a perfect world with a pure THK and no second wave they would have mastered the design gone back and done it

[sinful nimbus]

Cindril Rune Harp mentions running from GMS therefore she was still active therefore she wasn't sealed

[stray grove]

Why does the seal they were attempting to modify to seal GMS still depict THK lmao

[viscid ridge]

Could someone bring that rune harp up i wanna see what it says exactly?

[lethal burrow]

OK, well why didn't widow break her out like a year ago

[limpid summit]

Because they weren’t done?

[sinful nimbus]

Plea of a Weaver from the furthest edge of Pharloom.

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[stray grove]

It’s a fine headcanon man but just admit this evidence is flimsy as hell

[frigid belfry]

i guess widow could theoretically sacrifice herself to speed up the process? but then no other loyal weaver would exist to serve gms

[limpid summit]

What do you mean

[sinful nimbus]

And this can't have been written during the haunting because the weavers died before that

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[limpid summit]

Yes of course it’s not a solid theory

[stray grove]

You can’t make half a dozen assumptions and call it a theory

[limpid summit]

There’s no way that was TC’s genuine intentions with the weavers den seal of binding

I just think it’s fun to extrapolate

[stray grove]

It’s a fine headcanon man

But you’re not extrapolating shit you’re just making stuff up

That’s okay

[edgy nebula]

crazy that ballador had this rune harp the whole time and never did anything with the info

[mighty kraken]

maybe she conumes more silk when active and is trying to conserve it until servants arrive with a weaver

[viscid ridge]

I might be biased, but i dont believe that this completely justifies saying she wasn't sealed at the time

[limpid summit]

What am I making up

[limpid summit]

There’s no other indication that she’s watching as she sleeps

[lethal burrow]

What causes grand silk to be free?

in your estimation

[frosty gate]

I was gonna make a joke telling you you are wrong because it's Cyndril not Cindril just to find out I've been writing this shit wrong all this time and no one ever corrected me🥀

[limpid summit]

Silken sight and the urgent tone doesn’t lead one to assume “oh she’s asleep but yknow she could wake up! get outta there”

[lethal burrow]

why not people do it all the time?

[viscid ridge]

The first silk heart

[lethal burrow]

Maybe. I don't know what supports that though.

but Thank you for actually throwing an idea

[sinful nimbus]

The one where she's waking up due to the haunting

Which didn't exist at the time the rune harp was written

[frigid belfry]

stated to be time + her binding weavers

eventually she would wake naturally

[stray grove]

“PK gave the Weavers the SoB…”- baseless
“… in exchange for rune magic” - baseless
“The SoB could be modified to seal GMS” - baseless
“The Cindril Weavers were in the process of doing this but didn’t finish” - baseless
“The Cindril Weavers planned to return to Pharloom to seal GMS” - baseless

It’s a fine headcanon but it has no actual basis

As I’ve said about ten times

I don’t mind it I think it’s a fun idea

[lethal burrow]

Now that's a bit disingenuous isn't it?

There was definitely a certain point where the Weavers had a 100% certainty that this was not going to last and she's going to wake up.

It's not just "oh maybe, who know!"

[limpid summit]

I never said anything real about rune magic

[viscid ridge]

I think on that topic, that the reason widow didn't wake her up herself is because her powers are stunted due to the pins that bind her silk useless

[edgy nebula]

what is the sob

[stray grove]

#sk-lore message

[sinful nimbus]

There was definitely a certain point where the Weavers had a 100% certainty that this was not going to last and she's going to wake up.
Proof? Their last words state the opposite

These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

[limpid summit]

First of all they expected it to last forever they put it in the hands of random bugs

They were like even they could do this

They just got tired of working it

[lethal burrow]

Well, she doesn't bind her any Weavers over the course of the game so if somebody just shouted out loud "it's time" would she just be able to wake up then because it was "stated to be time"

[limpid summit]

Also “she might wake up” is very different from “run she’s watching you run away”

[edgy nebula]

mariah carey

[frigid belfry]

which weaver would she bind, and wtf is your last argument😭

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers deciding they want to flee the sleeping bum they believe will never be able to do jack again

[frigid belfry]

gms would eventually wake up, we dont know the time

[viscid ridge]

It still completely disproves that she doesn't have awareness as she is sleeping, and thats without mentioning the creation of phantom and lace which was most likely done while she was

[lethal burrow]

oh, you little funny little bean get the rest of that rune harp and stop playing around

besides, you know, they didn't just go into the burial spires for no reason

[sinful nimbus]

The point of the slumber is to take away her agency

She can't do anything what were they running from?

[lethal burrow]

i'm going off of what you said.

I asked why she wakes up when she does and you said because it was stated and because she's binding Weavers

[limpid summit]

To start anew to sustain free of web and service eternal?

[lethal burrow]

it's scrutiny I'm dealing

[limpid summit]

The service is sustaining her with their song

[edgy nebula]

theres probably an obvious answer, but howd weavers put gms to sleep and keep her asleep before the pilgrims started rolling in?

[sinful nimbus]

I've already posted the rune harp that was just the relevant part that confirms they believed the Citadel would continue indefinitely (up until someone came to kill GMS for good that is)

[limpid summit]

They worship her that’s the web

[fresh badger]

💀 what makes you think thats their most recent belief

Its just the last record

[lethal burrow]

That's 50% of the way done! Now all you have to do is address the other thing I said

[sinful nimbus]

Its their last words

They died shortly afterwards

[stray grove]

Yea in other words the most recent record

[limpid summit]

They went into the burial spires because they wanted someone to absorb their power and kill GMS eventually

[fresh badger]

I said most recent belief

[limpid summit]

So no one would have to work to keep her asleep

[sinful nimbus]

It does, read the text in the parentheses

[frigid belfry]

never said that, i said she wakes up when she does because multiple characters her waking was accelerating, theres no solid reason why she wakes up at that exact moment, the most likely factor is due to time, and her binding weavers would speed up this process

[stray grove]

Why wouldn’t the most recent record reflect their most recent belief

[lethal burrow]

why was the towers necessary for that though?

Surely if they wanted to pass their power, they could've just been in charge ruling and then passed the power when the time came for someone to come

[sinful nimbus]

They were dying

[limpid summit]

Why would they just sit there

[sinful nimbus]

"Pharloom's fading first children"

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers were all allegedly dying for ambiguous reasons

[limpid summit]

The other weavers left and they might have eventually returned but the weavers truly had no way of knowing

[frosty gate]

I don't like how this looks for some reason, my brain itches

[mighty kraken]

oh wait. you know the gauntlets that happen in the game, where we see silk hitting the floor then enemies spawning? it must be gms just naturaly sensing either a weaver, which is hornet, or the blood of another higher being, which is wyrm. this would suggest that gms isnt literally asleep but just confined herself to silkball to conserve silk. and just woke up cause she obviously sensed hornet on her front door.

[limpid summit]

Would they really have just held out on the off chance that a weaver returned

[sinful nimbus]

Yes the 'why' isn't very important

[lethal burrow]

You don't get to decide what's important

Just because it suits your fancy

[limpid summit]

It may be important but it’s undeniably true

[sinful nimbus]

Can you explain how its important to the current discussion?

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t matter whether it is important or not

[foggy fractal]

make the colours red it'll look better (red is cool and awesome colour)

[limpid summit]

The weavers were fading so they allowed themselves to die and someone else to take charge

Leaving their powers for the small chance that a weaver would return and avenge them

[frosty gate]

I'm saving the reds for the Karak and the Skarr whenever I make their piece of the Timeline

[foggy fractal]

fair

[frosty gate]

Weavers get stinky grey

[lone folio]

It wasn't her that made the cocoon it was the Weavers. But except for that yeah she can sense creatures some way or another

[mighty kraken]

oh

[lethal burrow]

Because according to you, they're fading is key to several of their important decisions so therefore figuring it out would inform us further

[frosty gate]

That is a supposition that we've got but she can make a cocoon for protective reasons.

[lethal burrow]

I await your sarcastic reply

[limpid summit]

I don’t understand why the reason for their death matters

They were dying but didn’t want GMS free

[lone folio]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

We already know that they 100% believed the Citadel would continue indefinitely so what further information there is to be gleaned isn't very relevant to figuring out Cindril's chronology

[lethal burrow]

refusing to open the door because you think you know what's on the other side is interesting logic.

[frosty gate]

God I stop looking at chat for half a second and I get lost, why is that used for the Cindril Chronology??

[sinful nimbus]

• Cindril was fleeing GMS
• The Citadel makes GMS a non-issue
• The Weavers never thought otherwise

Therefore Cindril was before the Citadel

[limpid summit]

Cindril: “Flee her gaze”
Atla (where early citadel iconography is found): “This low her gaze escaped, weave hope anew”

The tablets and harps and NDD paint a fairly cohesive picture

[frosty gate]

I agree that Weavers dying is weird and it would be nice to figure it out, but I have no idea what that has to do with Cindril

[sinful nimbus]

Ding ding ding

It has nothing to do with it idk why that got brought up

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers were specifically awaiting Weaver spawn to appear from out of pharloom to come back according to others

[frosty gate]

Do you mean the Bell Shrine?

The Bell Shrine prototype

[limpid summit]

Yes

Eva seems pre citadel too

Why would they make an effigy of their sealed god when they were considered gods

[mighty kraken]

if it was made by weavers, then what was the fate of the weavers kidnapped if she was trapped in the silkball

[limpid summit]

So it went tricks traps Eva citadel

[frosty gate]

Technically, Citadel was just Traps 2

[sinful nimbus]

They were hoping for that to happen yeah

Kinda explicit

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free

[frigid belfry]

red memory also corroborates this

[lone folio]

Probably excecuted or used for gathering more silk for the choir bugs to utilize or in the case of widow getting enslaved

[sinful nimbus]

How so

[limpid summit]

If the Cindril weavers left right before why in the world would they be like

“Those guys’ll totally come back”

[lethal burrow]

Why do you frame this in a way like I was denying that

You're so weird

[frigid belfry]

herrah states the other weavers wanted this, ill bring it up

[sinful nimbus]

She says they want her to be their queen

Nothing to do with Pharloom because they wanted to "start anew"

[mighty kraken]

i never thought of the weavers being executed as a possiblity. also i thought widow was a traitor rather than a slave.

[frosty gate]

I mean, all they hope is that their sisters made a safe escape and that their descendants can free them from this bs, I don't see that as weird. It's never stated that the different Weaver groups had beef with each other, they just had different means to be successful

[frigid belfry]

the first ending of this game is weaver queen

this was intentional

"Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine..."

[sinful nimbus]

Yes the word queen can be used in multiple contexts

[lethal burrow]

I'd say you're right

[frigid belfry]

not really when its used specifically like this

[spark valve]

It’s not tho

[sinful nimbus]

Its used in its standard definition which means a female ruler

[lone folio]

Okay honestly that is probably the case

[lethal burrow]

that's that classic star condescension!

This 96 year-old diner still makes it the old-fashioned way!

[sinful nimbus]

That is not meant to be condescending

[spark valve]

Star just ignore the troll

[lethal burrow]

How very

well, you know

[spark valve]

Anyways things can be thematically related without being literally diegetically related

[lone folio]

Her pins are made of a grey material which is commonly used by Weavers like for example the silkshot

[lethal burrow]

ye true

as long as nobody thinks widow was from the steel city

[spark valve]

Both weaver queen the ending and the weavers in hallownest’s desires for hornet go against what she herself want but that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway the reason I deny this connection is because A) Cindril Weavers were looking to "start anew" and B) Hallownest weavers had no way of getting informed on the Citadel's plan

[spark valve]

Hallownest weavers also went back to pharloom without hornet which you know

[frigid belfry]

possible, but the subcontext behind herrahs words, considering the fact that the weavers we know in pharloom wanted a being to defeat gms makes this highly likely

[lone folio]

I was once a believer but my eyes were opened by reading a bit better

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think that's canon

[spark valve]

Sure it is

[sinful nimbus]

Start anew moment

[lethal burrow]

ignoring unanswered questions is a lot easier than answering them.

[frigid belfry]

when did this happen

[ionic basalt]

The charm

[spark valve]

Sure but then the zombies came

[lone folio]

And then they....?

[frosty gate]

I mean honestly, going by the arguments you exposed I think that the Weavers coming back isn't that weird. They just didn't know what happened so they went back to check

[lone folio]

Like what did the returning Weavers even do in pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Did they not know of a single other safe space

[frigid belfry]

widow is from the steel city

widow is a steel master

she is void

[spark valve]

Possibly not

[lethal burrow]

The radiance was by ans large worse than grandmother silk ever was as far as the Weaver's new (if we're supposing they left before the citadel then the worst grandmother silk ever did was like... 'force' them to play music supposedly)

[ionic basalt]

Maybe some weavers and herreh went to hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

That would be strange and you'd expect literally any indication of their presence in Pharloom

[frigid belfry]

?

[spark valve]

Sure it’s odd tc didn’t follow up on the sequel bait

[frigid belfry]

its not like herrah is in hallownest why would she be there

makes no sense

[frosty gate]

What's this replying to

[sinful nimbus]

Tammo

[lone folio]

What bro that doesn't even make sense Widow is confirmed to be a part of shakras tribe in chapter 7 of the silksong journal written by bretta Jr.

[stray grove]

They could have gone literally anywhere else

[frosty gate]

Depending on the Timeline, they mightve just died when they came back

[spark valve]

Could have but didn’t

[lethal burrow]

when you set out to go to a location and then you arrive at that location there is a period in between those two actions.

If somebody sets out to go somewhere, various things can potentially occur to stop them from getting to their planned destination, there is also the alternative that they may have reached their destination, but it was at a period of time that was long enough ago that it is no longer relevant

[frosty gate]

Intercepted by GMS

[frigid belfry]

gng played songsilk🤣 re-vist act 10 where starpengu ragebaits ari himself into making hornet void

[stray grove]

Start anew moment

Weaversong lore is stupid in light of the Cindril lore

[frigid belfry]

L reading comprehension

[sinful nimbus]

Which would be awkward writing

[spark valve]

Settling down then getting chased out by zombies might make Pharloom look less unappealing

[ionic basalt]

Uh she had hornet with pk and became a dreamer?
Man the lore is messy

[stray grove]

But those aren’t the only two options

[lethal burrow]

heresy is merely a contrivance, all things can be conjoined.

[spark valve]

GMS was controlling but would’ve looked like a safe option compared to the potential risk of anywhere else

[stray grove]

And they were pretty desperate to get out of Pharloom too if the rune harp is any indication

[spark valve]

No they aren’t the only two options but they did choose one of them

[mighty kraken]

😭 bro hes being sarcastic

[sinful nimbus]

It being a retcon would really just streamline everything idk why it would still be canon

[spark valve]

They ran away from home realized the world was really scary actually and came crawling back

[stray grove]

So then “they were chased out by zombies” is kind of a poor reason for them to specifically go back to Pharloom

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the wastes don't seem like a place bustling with other nearby civilizations.

flee Until your strength exhausts" implies they were planning on running for a while

[ionic basalt]

Deepnest is true sht

[stray grove]

HK Weaver lore was very different

It’s kinda incoherent now for the most part

Little Weavers:

[spark valve]

But this part isn’t incoherent

[stray grove]

I mean sure but it’s still stupid in light of the newly revealed lore

[lethal burrow]

Everything is semi reasonably explainable

[frigid belfry]

wtf was going to scare them in hallownest

[spark valve]

The god zombie dream plague

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/nicholas-cage-teletubbies-sun-shining-creepy-gif-5183695

[frigid belfry]

just get dreamnail and beat absrad

stupid ass weavers

[ionic basalt]

They might see how radiance is infecting them and their kin

[frigid belfry]

i would argue hn is still safer than pharloom imo

i dont believe they ever returned

[mighty kraken]

or maybe they went somewhere completely else

[sinful nimbus]

Could Nosk see Radiance in an infected bug's dreams and mimic her

[foggy fractal]

idk

[stray grove]

We know that the Cindril Weavers didn’t just go to Hallownest and many of them established colonies in other lands the assumption that literally everywhere else was a hellscape to the point where they were forced to return to the abusive mother deity they desperately ran the hell away from in order to start anew is silly

[lethal burrow]

what makes you say that? Remember, we're assuming they left before the haunting or any of that so grandmother silk was basically just having them play harps

[sinful nimbus]

Divinity mimicked in form too malleable...

[frigid belfry]

nice try satan

[spark valve]

They explicitly went back to Pharloom

[stray grove]

Like let’s just admit this is just bad writing lmao

[lethal burrow]

or at least attempted to

[stray grove]

(Also the fact that there’s no trace of them)

[mighty kraken]

o

[lethal burrow]

btw i'm doing a silksong trivia quiz tomorrow! it will be in #sk-discussion
-# Around 2 PM PST

||also if you want let me know if you want to get pinged for that!||

The quiz will have some lore questions

[stray grove]

This is also just bad writing

[frigid belfry]

pharloom is still a very alive and somewhat hostile kingdom (even at the weavers time), compared to hallownest at that time

[lethal burrow]

Retroactively perhaps

[foggy fractal]

noooo not lore questions

[spark valve]

It’s at least possible that the zombie plague made them reevaluate whether leaving was even a good idea. Obviously it’s bad writing for the weavers returning to never go anywhere but it happened and there’s no contradiction

[stray grove]

I mean I wasn’t claiming there was a contradiction

I just said it was extremely stupid

Particularly in the context of the Cindril harp

[lethal burrow]

It will only have some not all

[spark valve]

GMS could’ve looked like a very safe option compared to risking it again with another realm

[sinful nimbus]

it being stupid and not elaborated upon is enough to say it was retconned 🥱

[lethal burrow]

🙏

[spark valve]

No? It’s just stupid and not elaborated on that doesn’t make it not canon

[sinful nimbus]

Shouldn't have gone to the Land of Gods it gave the outside world a bad rep

[spark valve]

Is godhome not canon anymore

[sinful nimbus]

Its the charitable assumption

[stray grove]

There is no charitable assumption

TC are bad writers we know this

[sinful nimbus]

Lesser of two evils

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt

[stray grove]

“It would be bad writing” isn’t a good reason to consider something noncanon anymore lmao

[lethal burrow]

God seeker mode is canon

[mighty kraken]

na it has to be, cause of shade lord appearance in act 3

[stray grove]

GSM is actually fine

[spark valve]

I mean it never was

[lethal burrow]

why are you so keen to figure out their story if you think it's badly written is the question

[sinful nimbus]

It being bad writing and literally never being elaborated upon though...

Its literally just not in the lore dawg pack it up

[spark valve]

For one no it doesn’t for another that was obviously rhetorical

[stray grove]

No but it at least used to be somewhat compelling

“PK didn’t die of starvation that’s bad writing”

Well at least SS debunked that

[spark valve]

That was always a dumb argument

[lethal burrow]

fluke hermit isn't elaborated on that doesn't mean they're bad writing

[mighty kraken]

mb

[sinful nimbus]

Fluke hermit isn't sequel bait

[stray grove]

You’re telling me!

[lethal burrow]

How dare you?

[plain gazelle]

teenagers when a minor detail in an intentionally and infamously vague video game lore doesn't seem consistent with their interpretation of other minor details: "wow these writers are ass"

[sinful nimbus]

The sequel bait was written like 7 years ago when the lore was different, it never got elaborated upon, and looks very silly in retrospect

[foggy fractal]

noooo flukes are gonna appear once again in pharloom bay dlc trust

[stray grove]

Why are you so keen to figure out what my reasons for being here are is the question

[mighty kraken]

o wait also we dont se THK with the siblings, and in the godhome endings THK is alive

[stray grove]

I’m allowed to criticize SS’ writing 🥱

[lethal burrow]

It's just a question

I don't know why you're being all evasive unless you have some reason not to answer it

[spark valve]

Doesn’t matter

[spark valve]

Nooooo you can’t discuss the story in the story discussion channel how dare you

[frigid belfry]

gng aint on my toenail weaver death canon theory🤣

[sinful nimbus]

I for one welcome another Silksong hater to the server ❤️‍🩹

[lethal burrow]

discussing the quality of the story and the contents of the story are decidedly different

[stray grove]

I mean I’m not here to figure out the story I already know the story I’m here using a discussion channel for its intended purpose

[sinful nimbus]

You're an alright guy The Return of the King

[sinful nimbus]

Yea but both fit here

[lethal burrow]

❌

[stray grove]

You’re alright too, Starpengu | Watch Nausicaa

[foggy fractal]

this reminds me of a quote but I can't quite recount it

[frigid belfry]

stroke competition

[lethal burrow]

this is like Anakin deciding to be cool with Palpatine

[sinful nimbus]

Call me Watch Nausicaa

[stray grove]

Do your friends call you Watch

[lethal burrow]

Dramatic foreshadowing happening right now

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[foggy fractal]

Watch "Starpengu" Nausicaa ?

[stray grove]

Call me King, then

[spark valve]

Ok King

[lethal burrow]

I don't think any human being with a soul and a brain and a moral code in this channel has called them anything but star since silk song has released

[sinful nimbus]

You got it King

[limpid summit]

Yes King

[foggy fractal]

maybe I should watch Nausicaa

what is it even about

[stray grove]

You should yes

[spark valve]

Just do it

[lethal burrow]

The environment

[stray grove]

Nausicaa is like Silksong if Silksong was actually a well written story

[edgy nebula]

i dont tihnk i've ever heard of nausicaa in my life

[lethal burrow]

It's like if you took wine and boiled it until it was cheese

[spark valve]

I mean no it’s pretty thematically distinct

[lethal burrow]

don't bring logic here their haters they'll just hate on it

[stray grove]

Yeah that’s why it’s good

[edgy nebula]

oooohhhh yeah i have heard of it actually

[sinful nimbus]

It has a princess fighting to save bugs actually

Very similar

[spark valve]

Hey the citadel is thematically neat it’s just kinda lacking a resolution

[lethal burrow]

They should ban everyone here for not talking about the story of the game

[foggy fractal]

hey how come all of you know what Nausicaa is about but I don't ? hm ? have you guys been going on secret movie nights behind my back ?? 😠

[mighty kraken]

ok one last question which might be kinda dumb but im just gonna ask it anyway

[lethal burrow]

we need somebody to ask questions

[stray grove]

Don’t worry it can’t be that dumb

[lethal burrow]

The standards are low. It's hard.

[mighty kraken]

is the delicate flower in anyway related to the everbloom

[stray grove]

They’re the same exact thing

[lethal burrow]

What if I told you they're the same thing?

[sinful nimbus]

We ALL do movie nights in #sk-lore every saturday you should come join

[mighty kraken]

o

[lethal burrow]

Same type of flower anyway

[foggy fractal]

oh my bad

[spark valve]

Umm actually the Everbloom is the memory of one plucked from hornet’s dream

[lethal burrow]

: It's OK they're lying <3

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/walks-away-sad-leave-tom-and-jerry-gif-16877258

[mighty kraken]

i couldnt be bothered to do the delicate flower quest nor all the delicate flower interactions

[lethal burrow]

damb

[stray grove]

btw i'm doing a nausicaa watch party tomorrow! it will be in #sk-discussion
-# Around 2 PM PST

||also if you want let me know if you want to get pinged for that!||

The movie will have some lore implications

[foggy fractal]

woah

[mighty kraken]

infected crossroads is so evil with all the cut off paths

[foggy fractal]

be there or be square guys

[edgy nebula]

more nausicaa then there seems

[spark valve]

It would be fun to actually do that icl

[foggy fractal]

how long is nausicaa

1.5 hours ?

[lethal burrow]

you've made a fatal error

You see, everybody in the server except for two people, actually cares about silk song and prefers something related to it as opposed to random movies

[stray grove]

Raise your hand if you care about movies guys

[sinful nimbus]

Nausicaa fans are plenty here actually

[edgy nebula]

movies killed my grandma

[sinful nimbus]

I've been pinged like 3 times of screenshots of people watching Nausicaa from a pirated website

[lethal burrow]

I never said they don't care about random movies that's misrepresenting my claim

[foggy fractal]

😱

[lethal burrow]

[foggy fractal]

I heard there was like big bugs in Nausicaa

is that factual ?

[spark valve]

There are

[lethal burrow]

Can they throw their needles 20 yards?

[stray grove]

“They should ban everyone here for not talking about the story of the game”

[foggy fractal]

wow TC stole Nausicaa's whole flow hm ?

[mighty kraken]

wait does sherma have a story? last question fr

[sinful nimbus]

Yes 🗣️

[edgy nebula]

no

[lethal burrow]

Who is they?

[stray grove]

Yeah

[foggy fractal]

wow tc sucks !

[spark valve]

Getting disillusioned with the citadel to an extent

[stray grove]

Nausicaa is basically Silksong if it was good

[sinful nimbus]

He's a basic pilgrim who comes to learn about the Citadel's horrors n stuff

[lethal burrow]

yes, but it's in silk song so it's bad that the rules

[edgy nebula]

the only story sherma has is the journey he takes part in in silksong

[mighty kraken]

oh ok. nothing i dont already know

[sinful nimbus]

In terms of backstory he's kinda lacking but that's the point

[mighty kraken]

well bye everyone

[edgy nebula]

cya

[foggy fractal]

is this the titular "Nausicaa" ?

[spark valve]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

awesome

[lethal burrow]

you said tit the mods will ban you now 😔

[spark valve]

Just another pilgrim

[foggy fractal]

dw mods aren't here rn

[edgy nebula]

what do we think aphids look like in silksong

[foggy fractal]

quick let's talk about the lore so they don't see that message !

[limpid summit]

Every character should have one piece level misery wank

[lethal burrow]

Is hornet void

[limpid summit]

This would make the game good

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[foggy fractal]

idk you tell me

[stray grove]

You’re pretty cool too AppleEgg (can I call you Egg?)

[half zenith]

Writing prompt: if you were a Pale being, what creatures in the HK setting would you uplift into people?

[lethal burrow]

Guys is lace a child?
is the Hollow Knight pure?

[foggy fractal]

double it and give it to the next person

[limpid summit]

Yes if you want but Apple is what most people call me

You’re pretty cool too The King

[lethal burrow]

you know an apple egg is just the seed for an apple tree

[stray grove]

Please, King is fine

[lethal burrow]

how humble of you

[sinful nimbus]

All of them cuz I'd be a wyrm 🗣️

[twilit trellis]

Get gud

[sinful nimbus]

Ignore that wyrms don't uplift all of em

[foggy fractal]

but aren't all wyrms dead

[half zenith]

Fair answer lol. I am curious

[twilit trellis]

Garama

[lethal burrow]

simply find 3 silmmarils

[twilit trellis]

SHAW

[sinful nimbus]

Possibly

Bardoon says they're all gone but he's talking about their large forms so there could be smaller ones ruling kingdoms or wtv

[edgy nebula]

none of them, id make a zoo where other pale beings pay to watch the wilderness

[twilit trellis]

Adido

[half zenith]

Tbh I’d first start with the creatures I like that don’t already have a people associated with them, but maybe after a while I might get bored and pick the weird/notoriously troublesome creatures out of morbid curiosity

[twilit trellis]

Catboy is gay or a furry

[lethal burrow]

Cat boys with only the ears and a tail can hardly be called real furrys

[half zenith]

Damn didn’t have to call me out like that 💀 /silly

I’m bi but same diff

[foggy fractal]

interesting

[twilit trellis]

OK I guess

[stray grove]

That’s not how that works

The beacon uplifts all eligible creatures in its vicinity the Wyrm doesn’t pick and choose

[spark valve]

I mean for all we know he might’ve chosen when initially shifting but it’s not like he’s been around of late to continuously update the software

[half zenith]

Really? I was under the impression that Pale beings can just do whatever they want. The beacon was how Pale King did it, maybe, but what did Silk do

They ARE gods after all

[stray grove]

Silk transformed Pharlids into Weavers

[lethal burrow]

what determines eligibility and how do you know this is how it works. None of this shit is defined.

[stray grove]

On an individual basis

She gave each one some of her own silk and evolved them

[ember river]

Her body isn't completely silk

[stray grove]

Wyrms use beacons

[ember river]

Doesn't look like it at least

[stray grove]

Which operate on a much larger scale

[half zenith]

Yeah exactly. I should be able to uplift mossgrubs and furms and those pretty flower things if I want because I said so

[lethal burrow]

we know a wyrm became beacon

[stray grove]

No actually mister mushroom says they all do this shit and idk why you’d assume they had different methods of doing so

[ember river]

Yeah I don't think beacons are literal anchors of sentience the wyrms just build

[half zenith]

Tbh if I was a god I’d probably just wander the land I called home and leave behind traces of my influence like a wandering artist

[stray grove]

The beacon seems to be a product of the metamorphosis which is a natural part of the Wyrm life cycle

[ember river]

It's a metaphor for them being the light that guides the bugs into a civilization

[stray grove]

Like that’s how they rule

[ember river]

There's no beacon

[stray grove]

They have a magical method of ruling

They’re magic

[ember river]

It's a METAPHOR

[lethal burrow]

I gotta go for now, but I hope to see some of you tomorrow for the quiz. It'll be a lot of fun.

[spark valve]

There is a beacon that’s why bugs who leave it lose their minds

It’s not a metaphor

[stray grove]

The beacon is real lol

[ember river]

It's not a literal fucking beacon in the middle of hallownest

[half zenith]

I always thought the memory curse was bullshit magic to discourage Hallownest bugs from leaving

[sinful nimbus]

Dude not everything is literal something its an allegory

[stray grove]

It’s a magic beacon

[spark valve]

It’s a spell

[ember river]

If it's not literal it's metaphorical

[stray grove]

Uhm

[sinful nimbus]

He figuratively uplifted the minds of every bug in Hallownest

[spark valve]

It’s a literal magical effect

[half zenith]

Or something they did to ensure the radiance didnt breach containment

[stray grove]

So true bestie

[sinful nimbus]

With his jovial nature

[ember river]

No shit the uberpowerful gods can cast magic

[half zenith]

…Man I just wanted to speculate on what an uplifted Savage Beastfly would look like

[ember river]

The same because Savage Beastfly is a higher being

[half zenith]

If I was a god I’d create one just because it was funny and I wanted to see what would happen

[stray grove]

So it’s not metaphorical

It’s a real magical effect

That is described as a beacon

[ember river]

Yeah that's just how gods work

[stray grove]

Which is an apt description because that’s how it appears in the Dream expanse

[ember river]

I mean it's not a literal beacon in the city of tears or some shit

[sinful nimbus]

😭 🙏

[stray grove]

It’s a literal mind beacon

What are you on about

[ember river]

You know a beacon is an actual physical thing right?

[stray grove]

Obviously it’s not a physical light beacon that doesn’t mean it’s metaphorical or “not literal”

You need to Google what words mean

[foggy fractal]

not this beacon

at least I don't think...

[ember river]

Precisely

[stray grove]

The magical effect is called a beacon

Bruh

[ember river]

The magical effect can be called a sentience missile for all I care, it's magic and they can call it whatever

They chose a beacon because it conveys what it does well

[stray grove]

And yet they chose to call it a beacon

[spark valve]

Then why are you upset that it’s called a beacon

[ember river]

Yeah guess why

[ember river]

I'm not upset it's called a beacon, I'm upset at you lot not understanding what an allegory is

[edgy nebula]

isnt this what star was talking about

[spark valve]

It’s not an allegory that’s not what an allegory is

[ember river]

It's not a giant lighthouse built in the dreamscape

[ember river]

Yeah that expression was derived from the actual, physical thing

[spark valve]

That… doesn’t matter

[sinful nimbus]

No one was saying it was a giant lighthouse

King was just using the terminology the game established

[stray grove]

And I don't mean it metaphorically or rhetorically or poetically or theoretically or any other fancy way

[spark valve]

One goat quoting another

[limpid summit]

You right

[frigid belfry]

now lets go with the theory that the weavers did infact return to pharloom, does this do anything for the farsight?

ignoring any possible coincidences

it could be extradiagetic design choice

[limpid summit]

Eden

[limpid summit]

Wdym

Oh yo

Uh

Yeah I think that’s abstract

Absolom seems pretty old

Who knows though

[viscid ridge]

Mossbag was high on lifeblood when he wrote that part of the video im sorry 😭

[frigid belfry]

counting or not counting weaver violence?

[viscid ridge]

Not at all, until we get future confirmation, i think its likely that the remaining weavers either got binded by gms(i think this is unlikely, but im still bringing it up as a possibility), or they died before getting to pharloom.

[viscid ridge]

How do you mean?

[frigid belfry]

its a meme lmao

[viscid ridge]

Like in reference to first sinner and widow?

Oh ok nvm then 😅

[visual glacier]

You either live under a rock or don’t live in USA

[lavish tangle]

Well she was loyal until she wasn’t soo

[halcyon merlin]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-boss-mr-boss-gun-mr-boss-smiling-friends-smiling-friends-mr-boss-angry-gif-7442105350866946345

[graceful grail]

Did anyone else notice that Awakening was reuploaded (at least on apple music) and it sounds way better now???

[visual glacier]

Very important lore question

[muted lantern]

Wait how did I get moved to this chat? Wth?

I was in sk discussion.

[visual glacier]

Discord sucks

[lethal burrow]

in what way

[quick geyser]

“Lace was”

[viscid ridge]

So its probably something either incredibly stupid or something incredibly violent, so i think im good 👍

[dire lynx]

WE all agree that the weavers were the most racist and homophobic bugs to live in the world of hollow knight

[graceful grail]

I just realized that Seth does not have the silk animation for his defeat. Unlike every other boss in the game.

Which means Seth is immune to the haunting.

Here is moss mother dying with the silk strands leaving her, for example

[hollow ermine]

wait people say the shade in the lost lace ending is the knight we play as in hollow knight? but his horns look like the horns of THK or PV

[graceful grail]

If you use shade, soul or shade – you will see the horns that look like THK on TK’s shade when you use the ability.

He also has those horns in the dream no more ending.

[hollow ermine]

oh okay

[graceful grail]

People have theories that TK looks like that in its shade form because they were what the Pale King was looking for in a vessel.

That’s why he picked thk because it had the right looking shell. But TK had the correct shade.

But that’s just a theory

[craggy smelt]

I don't know about 'sic horns' being the defining characteristic PK was after...

[graceful grail]

Is there any other reason why PK would pick thk over all the rest of the vessels?

Unless he knew what he was looking for already

[craggy smelt]

don't get me started on purity...

[graceful grail]

Sry 😇

I would think having a shell at all makes you not pure.

But also, there’s the whole idea instilled thing. I don’t really know.

[craggy smelt]

if you want a dense read on it, I posted my views here:
#hk-lore message

for now, I'm going to sleep

[zenith gorge]

Hmm
I’m very biased on that topic since I was always a knight purity believer, so my mind is telling me that I want to like your explanation because it goes along with what I want to believe

Super duper antithetical to the #hk-lore norm, but I think overall it ends up less contrived, and closer to the "obvious" game interpretation than the norm, I like it.

On my way to not talk about purity anyways because fuck that thing

[frosty gate]

Do yall think the Cogwork Core was commissioned by Weavers or Conductors?

Also I don't get why the Organ is Gilded

It all comes back to Phantom being a horribly handled character

[frosty gate]

It leads me to believe that the Conductors tasked Phantom to take care of the Organ

Which makes no sense why the fuck would she obey them

Obeying the Weavers is one thing but the Conductors? Idk

[wintry blade]

can someone explain me the entire main silksong lore

[terse warren]

I mean she probably dislikes GMS because ? so

[hushed crater]

https://youtu.be/K4Zoq1Yk-dM?si=txdM6X_I9juwFQAw
Here I am too lazy to type it

[ionic basalt]

Well it might be the conductors, since weavers got the pilgrims to sing the song in the first place

[terse warren]

GMS makes Weavers from Pharlids
Some Weavers escape because GMS is spoopy
Other Weavers trap GMS and force her to sleep because they're assholes
GMS makes Lace and Phantom
Weavers take the bugs from the surface as slaves to keep GMS asleep
They build the Citadel to keep her asleep
Weavers die out, task the bugs to keep GMS asleep
The bugs of the Citadel start polluting everything and kill everything and everyone is mad at them
GMS starts waking up because the plot demands it
GMS starts controlling everyone in Pharloom and sends people to catch the descendants of the Weavers that ran away so she can absorb them and get more Silk for Lace
Events of the game

[terse warren]

I have yet to watch the video and doubt I ever will so I cannot recommend it

[hushed crater]

I also haven't but he did a good job with hollow knight so I trust it will be good

[terse warren]

That's kinda a silly move what if he got everything wrong

[hushed crater]

He did well on all of the videos I watched so this should be no different and in the small case it is not it will at least give some understanding

[hardy inlet]

what is first sinner, a memory? the actual weaver? and is she haunted

[spark valve]

dream fight

not haunted

[frosty gate]

Yes, but is that enough reason to obey the commands of bugs who are technically far below you

[hardy inlet]

is fourth chorus haunted

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but the Weavers made the Sentinels anyway so maybe they wanted to make a more "eternal" song

[spark valve]

weavers wanted an eternal song but that song being produced by machines was the conductors' idea

[frosty gate]

Some people heavily disagree with a lot he said

[spark valve]

teh weavers built the sentinels to capture bugs

[frosty gate]

The Architects

[hardy inlet]

is fourth chorus haunted

[frosty gate]

Yes, technically. It's a Machine so it can't be Haunted perse

But it is being controlled

[frosty gate]

I want to believe that this is the case without proofs

[hardy inlet]

is lugoli haunted

[spark valve]

ballador rune harp and the last edict of the conductors

[frosty gate]

The Ballador Rune Harp refers to Weavers leaving the place to Conductors, never refers to bugs

[frosty gate]

The Last Edict, let me read it again, but iirc it refers to the Cogwork being finished

[frosty gate]

Yes it's said in her Journal entry iirc

[hardy inlet]

how aboit the unravelled

[spark valve]

the ballador rune harp indicates the weavers intended the song to last eternal

the last edict of the conductors is telling citadel bugs to go get silkflied so they can be robots and sustain the song that way

[frosty gate]

You are mixing these two together

[spark valve]

I'm not

[terse warren]

Idfk

[frosty gate]

Where in the Last Edict exactly do they tell the Pilgrims to become Silkflies?

[terse warren]

The last edict is clearly stating what Tammo said

[terse warren]

"That final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given"

[frosty gate]

"Telling Citadel bugs to go get silkflied so they they can be robots and sustain the song*

[spark valve]

I wonder in what way citadel bugs give up their soul to adopt a final form of dial and rotor

and become the perfect unfaltering voice

[terse warren]

That's exactly what the edict is saying

[frosty gate]

It's saying how it's made, it's not telling people to become robots

[terse warren]

"we welcome that final form"

[spark valve]

it's telling them to freely give their souls

[frosty gate]

The Final form of the Cogwork Core, the thing that is supposed to keep the Citadel running.

[terse warren]

??

[spark valve]

if your boss posts something on the bulletin about how excited 'we' are to 'welcome' the opportunity to have 'our' brains extracted and stuck into machines to work 24/7 they are in fact telling the people under them that that's what's happening

[terse warren]

"that final form of dial and rotor and soul freely given" that's clearly the "final form" in the life of a bug, so one of the automatons in the citadel

[spark valve]

it's both

no cogwork without the surrendered souls of the caste

they become part of it

[terse warren]

The souls don't only make up the core though

See Fourth Chorus

[spark valve]

yeah ofc

souls were even getting extracted not even to use in machines before that

[frosty gate]

It doesn't read like that, maybe it's just my English, but it makes no sense to me.

Its just explains the way the CCore was made.

[spark valve]

when the guys in charge mandate the construction of a project that involves their subordinates 'freely' giving their souls to complete it

that is

a command

to surrender their souls

[frosty gate]

It says Gladly given, not Freely given. It's just trying to sugarcoat the fact that they are killing people in the Ward to get their soul.

Like "Yeah guys, Jimmy gladly gave his life for the Citadel" but it says nowhere they should do it to

I read it as "Oh yeah the Architects made this, we welcome it!"

[spark valve]

💀

[terse warren]

It's really not that

[frosty gate]

Well whatever, arguing with Tammo is as annoying as arguing with Star, agree to disagree

I've never seen a single person in this chat before this conversation interpret that dialogue like this

[terse warren]

Ad hominem

[frosty gate]

It really isn't, I'm agreeing to disagree and that's it

The attack is an added bonus

[spark valve]

'choral commandment'
'edict'
'order issued by the citadel'

'it's not an order it's just saying oh how nice it is that some bugs did it'

this is also so deliberately ignorant of like any social commentary the game is trying to make

'surely the priest kings telling bugs that they should be happy to die to become part of this isn't them saying they should do it'

ok

[frosty gate]

Thanks for condescending me, this is exactly why the attack was an added bonus

Jesus

3 days straight this channel has been nothing but passive aggressive comments

[spark valve]

there was no personal attack there

[frosty gate]

You are being condescending

[spark valve]

chill

[terse warren]

I mean you did also attack first

Not really in a position to complain

[terse warren]

Any theory that claims that Karak and the others fell during GMS rather than during the Citadel also ignores the game's commentary tbh

[spark valve]

eeeeh I mean I think it fell during the citadel's reign but it's not that explicit and that's kind of the point

part of the commentary with the old hearts is that everything is ultimately born of the system of power gms herself imposed

[terse warren]

"It's not pollution guys! It's not our fault that the world is fucked! It's all God's will!"

[spark valve]

well

gms isn't really god

[terse warren]

GMS is the natural resource that's being exploited

You could argue that the way GMS's Silk is used to manipulate is commentary on how religion is used to do the exact same thing

[spark valve]

that's not really the perspective the game takes with her

[frosty gate]

No I didn't, Tammo has been condescending from before what I said.

Worse part is that I can agree with it being a command and me being wrong, but God what a need to be condescending

[terse warren]

This implies the game explores her enough to take a perspective on her

[spark valve]

it doesn't explore her like as a character but it does explore extensively the impact of her actions even if it doesn't explore the actions themselves

[spark valve]

chill

it was a joke not that deep

[terse warren]

That's not really condescending tbh

[terse warren]

Yeah that's kinda the issue

She did jackshit

And because of that, almost every consequence can be attributed to the Citadel in a way that's more narratively satisfying

[spark valve]

Hornet: The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished.
Hornet: A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.
the princes heart dialogue kinda makes it the most explicit but the point being made extends to all of them

[terse warren]

That dialogue makes it the most confusing

[spark valve]

even if you don't necessarily agree with it (which I don't entirely)

[frosty gate]

It didn't feel like that, but sure, whatever in not gonna keep interrupting the Convo

[terse warren]

Cause y'know, GMS was asleep while Verdania fell, so how do you blame her exactly

[spark valve]

gms bound the lands beneath her and ever since then she's regarded as the true monarch

[spark valve]

well she started a cycle

[terse warren]

I mean eh

She made the Weavers sure but the issue is we don't really know what she did with em

[spark valve]

again I'm not sayin I necessarily entirely agree with the game's take on things (though I think it's an interesting perspective)

but this seems to be what it is

[terse warren]

I'm mostly just iffy about how unclear the game is on this topic

[spark valve]

we know they saw it as servitude, unclear what exactly that entailed though probably the stuff in the needolin memory at minimum

I don't think we really need a laundry list of gms's crimes

[terse warren]

Which one, the harp one? I always took that one as them trying to put her to sleep

[frosty gate]

The game is unclear in too many topics I'm afraid, I really hope whatever the DLC is going to be, it's extended and fills some holes

[spark valve]

I mean it's widow's memory and it says something like 'for her light eternal our song sustains'

plus in the cradle you can find those harps cast aside (also with a memory of widow)

[terse warren]

Well yeah, but the Weavers are a heavily biased source, I'd just like for something to come clearly from someone that didn't want to actively usurp GMS

[terse warren]

Tbh I'd love that but I doubt

[frosty gate]

It seems like GMS just wanted them to worship

[terse warren]

Yeah that's kinda tame tbh

[frosty gate]

I mean, GMS doesn't use them in any other way at all

[terse warren]

Again I doubt we'll get much about GMS as a character in DLC, because Lace is dumb and biased, Hornet is the Queen of bias, Weavers and everyone that was alive under her original rule is dead af

[frosty gate]

Lace is really dumb, but her bias lies more on hate right? She could give some decent info

Well

Not that decent, she's not that old

[terse warren]

I'm pretty confident it's more so the angsty teen kind of hate

DLC or sequel in which Lace grows as a person and matures would actually be fucking goated

Then we can probably get info on GMS

[frosty gate]

Honestly, I actually wonder if Lace can give any useful info

What does she actually know of her mother that we don't?

She's the Youngest of the things created by GMS

Made probably at the start of the Haunting

All she did was kill people and beg for attention

Attention that was not given

So I wonder what she would actually know of GMS considering she probably knew her the least

[terse warren]

Nah way earlier

Probably right before the big eep

The Haunting has been going on for a while, but not for long enough for her to have been "roaming these halls longer than most" - Caretaker

[frosty gate]

True, but how could GMS have made her while also being mad at the Weavers who betrayed her

[frosty gate]

Like, the Weavers betrayed GMS by putting her to sleep

So what time did she have to create Lace

And how has Lace sustained for so long and so pure

If GMS is the one that has to restock her

[terse warren]

While they were actively trying and failing to put her asleep

[frosty gate]

I feel like Longer than most applies to everyone alive and not the ones she killed

[terse warren]

I don't remember exactly where it was said, but the Weavers took a bit to put her to sleep properly

[frosty gate]

Which is just Pilgrims tbf

[terse warren]

We literally meet people who were alive before the Haunting started

It's quite recent

[terse warren]

She could've been doing so instinctively in her sleep

[frosty gate]

I mean, yeah, that's why Caretaker says "than most", its not that she's been there longer than everyone, there are people older than her

[terse warren]

I think that kinda defeats the purpose of the sentence though

"Yeah she acts 15 but she's actually 30" isn't much of a good comparison

[frosty gate]

I've heard people theorize that, but I'm unsure if that's the case. How would Phantom be found and not Lace if that was the case

[terse warren]

No one says Lace wasn't found

Maybe they just didn't care and left her be

Or maybe she did have a task

[frosty gate]

And why take Phantom then?

[terse warren]

For all we know, Phantom joined willingly

"Yeah I hate GMS let's fuck her up"

[frosty gate]

I wish Phantom had more lore to come to a conclusion about what the fuck is her deal

[stray fog]

Noone wants to deal with her mentally unstable ass 🙏

/j

[graceful grail]

I realized that Seth does not have the silk animation for his defeat. Unlike every other boss in the game.

Which means Seth is immune to the haunting.

Here is Moss mother‘s death for example.

[frosty gate]

Lace acts like she's above everyone, I don't think she would accept a command from anybody

[stray fog]

She would've been able to slime anyone who tried to control her

Phantom could do that too, so ig she joined the citadel willingly

[frosty gate]

I think it doesn't.

Most people in the Halls currently are Pilgrims who are just arriving the Citadel. The ones who are alive who came from before the fsll are just a few in comparison.

Twelfth, the Buttler and the Master, Caretaker most likely, Loam, Ballador

[terse warren]

It doesn't mean he's immune, just that he isn't haunted

[stray fog]

What about the re animated corpses

Those are old

[terse warren]

Yeah "She's been in the halls longer than 5 days" if he's referring to the pilgrims, makes it even worse

[frosty gate]

They're just dead, I don't think it counts for the "Most" that Caretaker implies

[terse warren]

Kinda true tbh

[frosty gate]

I mean, that's most of them

[stray fog]

True
They don't "roam the halls"
They only come back when gms is trying to kill hornet

[terse warren]

Yes but then that's just a stupid sentence on TC's part lol

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't be the first

[terse warren]

we're trying to salvage what we can here

[frosty gate]

Which one would I have to strangle to get info? Ari or William?

Nvm I'll do both for good measure

[stray fog]

Jack vine

[terse warren]

The damn music guy

I bet he didn't even playtest Lost Kin

[frosty gate]

But going back to topic, Lace being older than the Haunting feels weird

I don't think Weavers would've let her roam around

Weavers are very ruthless

[stray fog]

Why would they kill her though

If she didn't mess with them

[terse warren]

They're assholes

Always hate on Weavers

It's the right thing to do

[frosty gate]

They killed FS for saying they were not holy

[stray fog]

The Weavers never mention lace so that makes sense

[frosty gate]

I think it makes sense if Lace was made at the start of the Haunting

For whatever reason the Song became dull enough for GMS to make Lace

[stray fog]

It became dull because the citadel deteriorated

Right?

[terse warren]

"guys guys we aren't holy, we need to tell everyone!"

"ah good one FS"

"guys what do you mean good one"

"..."

"guys what do you mean good one"

[terse warren]

Not really

The Citadel was doing quite well it seems

The Citadel deteriorated because of the haunting not the other way around

[terse warren]

I disagree because that kinda takes away from a lot of things that happen in game

[frosty gate]

Idk, I said dull just to say something. All we know is the Conductors are negligent

[frosty gate]

Like what?
Not wanting to disable your argument, I just genuinely don't know

[sinful nimbus]

The haunting

[frosty gate]

I mean, we're going under the assumption that the song dulling was the reason for the Haunting

Not the other way around

[sinful nimbus]

But that's not true

The haunting is a result of the whiteward experiments

according to Caretaker

Which were due to the conductors negligence

[frosty gate]

Give me a sec, I'm assessing how bad do I want to die on this hill

[sinful nimbus]

mood...

[frosty gate]

Ok, just to be clear, you think they injected silk and then immediately the Haunting started as we know it or do you think the Haunting just took advantage of it

[terse warren]

Lace's relationship with Phantom, and Lace being forced to be a kid forever. "She acts like a kid but isn't one" isn't a good point when she's like 15 chronologically

[terse warren]

We know for a fact it's the second one

[frosty gate]

I mean she is old whether she acts childish or not, even being the youngest wouldn't mean she is any less ancient right?

[frosty gate]

I've got nothing fon the relationship with Phantom to be honest

That said, we don't know much of that relation

Maybe Lace just feels kinship and they're not as close as we believe

[sinful nimbus]

The former

Caretaker: Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?

Hornet: If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it.

Well maybe not "immediately" but the haunting didn't exist beforehand

[frosty gate]

But then Caretaker goes to say "That's it in part"

So that's part of the reason

The other part being the song maybe

[sinful nimbus]

He just goes onto detail the scale of the silk experiments

Not other reasons

Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...

[frosty gate]

So he's just saying that Hornet isn't properly explaining how grand the whole thing was?

Mansplaining much?

[sinful nimbus]

Never slander my goat

[frosty gate]

Breaking news, Caretaker is sexist

[sinful nimbus]

He's dropping real insight

[frosty gate]

I mean with that in mind, why not start the Haunting before?

I mean, if you think about it, the bots were already full of silk right?

Why not use those?

Start the Haunting through them

[sinful nimbus]

Iunno really

[frosty gate]

Wait, actually, don't the people praise the silk?

I have a vague memory of people praising the silk. Not GMS but the silk itself

[sinful nimbus]

Seems about right

They did praise GMS somewhat too but they didn't really know what she was

Pilgrim of Pharloom eternal, regale us with our Threefold song, that you may rise above and worship before our kingdom's divine heart.

[frosty gate]

Do you think that was the problem? Not the song itself not the injected silk

They started praising the Silk

Which is technically praising GMS

Which, I guess, would give her power

To start the Haunting

[sinful nimbus]

Just devotion isn't really implied to give GMS any sort of extra power

[frosty gate]

Like during Weaver times and probably during the Conductors early era all they did was focus the devotion to them

[frosty gate]

True, but she does need people to worship her at the very least

And then again, devotion seems to boost Higher Beings or whatever

I'm still unsure about it

But it seems to be the case

[sinful nimbus]

Based on what tho

Weavers were specifically playing songs (which are magic) for her

[frosty gate]

Why would she need magic songs from beings she created herself

The devotion thing comes from Hallownest tho, if that's what you're referring to

[sinful nimbus]

As if its ever elaborated upon

And that's not really true of any Hallownest HB

[frosty gate]

TC elaborate something challenge impossible

[frosty gate]

I mean, we know they all want to be preserved by gathering followers

Except WL

[sinful nimbus]

They mostly want followers but that does not mean devotion gives them a power boost

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't AbsRad prove exactly that?