sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

Bell Hermit

[ornate pier]

Oh wait this is a hypothetical

[ornate pier]

Ah

[serene hill]

twisted bud is also political if you see it as an abortion metaphor

[ornate pier]

Bell hermit lowkey sucks and is an asshole so I never thought too deeply abt his diaogue

[hasty ginkgo]

Its not. Its inspired by alien or something

[ornate pier]

Twisted bud is not abortion dawg it's like

[sinful nimbus]

Don't say that about the goat

[ornate pier]

The classic trope

From alien

[ornate pier]

The goat is caretaker

[serene hill]

i did not say it is. but people think it is.

[sinful nimbus]

Alien is uh

[ornate pier]

Chapel maid does nothing and the bell hermit is an asshole who barely does anything

[sinful nimbus]

Very much about pregnancy

[spark valve]

Alien which notoriously ISN’T about sexual violence

[ornate pier]

Lowkey not too versed in this, I haven't seen the movies

[serene hill]

caretaker betrayed me hes not the goat

[whole holly]

not in HK universe, where PK was savior for sacrificing thousands of children to abyss to save kingdom, or to Radiance , or GMS, or Citadel, or lot of Hunter and Nuu who quite literally murder different species for their Journal

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but he's funny

[hasty ginkgo]

You should watch some of them. Especially the first 2 and romulus

[whole holly]

i liked Yarnaby's Abortion Clinic, 5 stars on Yelp

[serene hill]

it takes me years to finish a 12 episode show you cant make me watch a movie

[sinful nimbus]

PK's actions were ethical even by our moral standards, Radiance GMS and the Citadel are all evil af that's kinda the point and Hunter and Nuu are also bad

[hasty ginkgo]

Lets vote: is twisted bud abortion or no

[serene hill]

radiance is not as evil as pk

[sinful nimbus]

Hurts me to slander the goat but Hunter killed his dog 💔

And Nuu tries eating Hornet

[whole holly]

excuse me, PK is moral?

[ornate pier]

Imma be real it could be but it feels like reading too deep into it

[sinful nimbus]

Well ya it was a trolley problem

[hasty ginkgo]

Its a horror film

[whole holly]

what , who was hunter's dog?

[ornate pier]

Idk I'm not too versed in the Inspirations

[serene hill]

murdering thousands of babies is only good if a man does it ♡

[hasty ginkgo]

Alien is not about sexual violence

[spark valve]

It is

[whole holly]

okay Star is out of line here

[sinful nimbus]

God Tamer entry says he trained a companion to fight in battle but he wanted to fight it too bad so he hunted it

[spark valve]

Horror movies can in fact have symbolism

[hasty ginkgo]

Murdering any babies ever is bad

[serene hill]

i was clearly joking yall

[whole holly]

ok thanks

[whole holly]

some weren't

[hasty ginkgo]

Yes. Alien isnt intended to be a deep film about sexual violence. Its an amzing horror film though. Not everything has to be political

[sinful nimbus]

WL was involved too

[whole holly]

so that makes it okay?

[spark valve]

You either have not seen them or were not paying attention

[sinful nimbus]

No its okay for unrelated reasons

[hasty ginkgo]

Maybe the newer ones. But the first films arent

[spark valve]

Yes they are

[serene hill]

pale king is not 'moral', radiance did bad but she was wronged by her people and pk, everyone abandoned her and left her to fade away

[hasty ginkgo]

it was from a time before everything had some deep political meaning

[ornate pier]

What pk did wasn't OK but it was at least out of desperation and an attempt to save the lives of other people
If hornet never gets kidnapped by slabflies you can't really justify her wanting them to stop breeding

[whole holly]

babykilling is notoriously better than genocide, got it

[sinful nimbus]

Please for the love of god go read Alien's wikipedia page or something dawg 🙏

[spark valve]

You can’t really justify it either way

[quartz spire]

do we have any hypothesis why Karak dried up? i assumed because of Citadel, but couldn't not find any evidence in the game

[hasty ginkgo]

Fine xenomorphs are a completely different species

[ornate pier]

I think we might be getting a tad bit into irl issues here guys

[serene hill]

i mean ppl are saying that hornet is racist and genocidal

[sinful nimbus]

Well its a trolley problem

[spark valve]

People don’t understand the narrative of HK that’s whatever just go to HK-lore if you don’t know what the vessel plan was

[whole holly]

chill, they are just descriptor words

[ornate pier]

Point is if she doesn't get kidnapped there's no real emotional aspect like pks desperation

[sinful nimbus]

Killing the vessels is obviously not ideal but the alternative was worse so PK kinda had his hands tied

In comparison to Hornet who doesn't really have any justified reason for what she says

[whole holly]

babykilling is okay when plan behind it, okay

[spark valve]

It’s not really comparable. Hornet’s being genocidal isn’t instrumental in serving the greater good, pk sacrificing the eggs was to save a whole lot more people

[hasty ginkgo]

So its akin to something laying eggs inside a person. Like a worm

[ornate pier]

Yea makes sense

[hasty ginkgo]

So its not sexual violence

[sinful nimbus]

Its a metaphor for it

[serene hill]

pk did not have to have thousands of babies just to throw them in his evil fucked up basement of goop

[whole holly]

but like neither do hunter, nuu, almost anybody, entire universe lacks morality, why are we getting shocked by hornet's lack of it, is it too blunt

[spark valve]

He didn’t do that even

[serene hill]

kingsmoulds already existed

[spark valve]

But yes he did have to do what he did

Kingsmoulds wouldn’t work

They can’t focus

[serene hill]

he did not have to.

[spark valve]

Yes he did

[sinful nimbus]

You are not supposed to view these characters as moral though?

[hasty ginkgo]

That doesnt make any sense. Its an alien species using a human as a host to give birth to a completely different species. Kinda. But what your saying is something like a worm laying eggs inside you is sexual violence?

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter being unhinged in every way is the point of his character and Nuu's entire gag is trying to eat you

[whole holly]

i would argue he did not have to do it at absurd scale, plus it didn't even work

[serene hill]

pk is a child abuser and selfish and vain

look at that poor little ghost, pk. its got trauma

[whole holly]

you are supposed to view Hornet as beacon and shining example of morality in game where you kill bugs - Team Cherry

[hasty ginkgo]

No mind to think

[serene hill]

ikr all that pointless cruelty and it didn't even work 😭

[spark valve]

We get it you don’t understand the idea of a necessary evil

[sinful nimbus]

Gee I wonder what unwillingly having your body used to foster children could be a metaphor for

[quartz spire]

but she doesn't kill the smol slabfly even she can. so her words in the journal, which are presumably very emotional, aren't proved by actions

[serene hill]

he clearly saw that all the others had minds and wills, he saw ghost and shut the door on them

[sinful nimbus]

I mean yeah Silksong is all about saving the day

[whole holly]

i think he should have moven Black Egg to Abyss

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet only kills (usually haunted) bugs in self defense barring a few edge cases

[serene hill]

id appreciate it if you didn't constantly insult my intelligence

sure you can think pk is good whatever but dont make insidious comments at me for having a different interpretation of media than you

[whole holly]

all about saving day?, not at all about answers from her captors, or any other messages of Hornet

[serene hill]

silksong is all about kissing women

she kissed shakra in the secret ending trust

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes in true ending she is just saving the day for goodness's sake, she even acknowledges she could leave the kingdom at any time

That's kinda her arc she goes from wanting to ensure her freedom to wanting to save Pharloom

[whole holly]

necessary evil, that is necessary for fixing problem but can't even fix problem, therefore not necessary, but i would argue even though conventional morality is not applicable because it doesn't strictly resemble real life situations, Pale King is not above criticism

[serene hill]

i love hornet

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't know the plan would not work

[cedar skiff]

morality scaling

[whole holly]

she wanted no loose ends quite literally though, she almost says it too

[cedar skiff]

awesome and productive discussion im sure

[sinful nimbus]

What loose ends

[whole holly]

not at all

[potent crag]

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like collapsed Pharloom would come to bite her in the butt or whatever

[stray fog]

#sk-lore is past its prime

[whole holly]

possible threat from different endings, like GMS's Influence, but if you are talking about Act 3 then it is about personal responsibility and her love for lace

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she feel personal responsibility if morality didn't apply

[whole holly]

when was prime

[serene hill]

we play as a victim of pk's abuse it's only natural that we dislike him after seeing him through their pov. they went through the path of pain just to see a tender moment between him and the 'preferred' child, a child pk loved instead of them

[sinful nimbus]

If morality didn't apply to HK it would lose pretty much all emotional impact

[stray fog]

Idk I'm just complaining about how there aren't as many fun discussions as of lately

[lapis creek]

can you please tell us what exactly is political about sexual violence

[serene hill]

ohhh little ghost my shaylah

[whole holly]

conventional morality doesn't apply which is what i said in beggining i am pretty sure, doesn't mean game lacks emotions

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but if conventional morality doesn't apply why should I care about any evil character

[serene hill]

i feel like this is getting nowhere im heading out yall im exhausted

[hasty ginkgo]

Because unborn babies are parisites now

[cedar skiff]

conventional morality not applying would make the underworks benches useless in that case

[lapis creek]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[serene hill]

they kind of are

[whole holly]

plus you should differentiate emotional and moral(social) factors, hornet was raised by weaver, inheriting their social customs, they left their responsibilities to Citadel, very evil, but i don't think weaver's care about morality if you ask me

[cedar skiff]

are you serious

[sinful nimbus]

The weavers that fled fled before the Citadel was established

[cedar skiff]

are you confidently saying this or is this irony

this discussion might be cooked im out 💔

[serene hill]

i didnt watch alien since i was a kid the birth scared the shit out of me ew ew

[sinful nimbus]

It is a weird thing to politicize

[whole holly]

didn't they leave responsibility so some bugs, idk what to call them but conductors i think but point still applies

[serene hill]

it... already is?

[whole holly]

yeah, hornet literally admits she was Wyrm and Weaver nature which even she is concerned of

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but constantly bringing up how its political when talking about the subject is weird af

No one cares vro 💔

Its not even like apolitical movies are better

[serene hill]

everything is political silly

[cedar skiff]

is this even about silksong anymore im confused

[hasty ginkgo]

Point made. Instead of one of the greatest joys life has to offer they are parasites. This is where my opinion differs from the rest of you

[whole holly]

if you think conventional morality applies everywhere, you should not be playing most games

[stray fog]

Lets goooo politics in #sk-lore 😍😍😍

[sinful nimbus]

It was about Alien which Silksong is derivative of

[uneven trench]

yes

[cedar skiff]

ohhh

i wasnt aware my bad

[hasty ginkgo]

Yes its about the twisted bud

[whole holly]

idk, i am planning escape like Weavers

[sinful nimbus]

I think you're missing the point slightly

[stray fog]

Both of these conversations are ass bro 💔

[spark valve]

Oh it’s this brand of idiot

[lapis creek]

it's a social issue but i dont really see what it has to do with politics

[serene hill]

they function similarly to parasites and alien is abt giving birth to a parasite iirc

[lapis creek]

it can and often does exist independently of how we make our laws

[sinful nimbus]

Pregnancy is fairly exhausting and taxing on the body and if that's unwanted its no wonder that would be compared to parasites

[cedar skiff]

i wasnt aware this wasnt in silksongs context because i think yarnaby being a disgraced doctor and all does speak volumes for how the plotline criticises how abortion is treated in a political sense in the real world, it being illegal in many places and such

[dire lynx]

Yo, how many "old hearts" do you think Hornet would need to pull the Pale King from her memory back to the real world

[whole holly]

thank god yarnaby aborted parasite in hornet

[hasty ginkgo]

Dude you could be chill.

[whole holly]

idk

[stray fog]

50

[lapis creek]

all of them

[sinful nimbus]

Well 3 old hearts is comparable to 1 higher being

[whole holly]

? source?

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe grab Green Princes' and Fayforns for good measure

[stray fog]

3 old hearts are for 1 flower
The pale king is an entire pale wyrm higher being

[sinful nimbus]

The snail shamans say combined they have the power to rival GMS iirc

Although GMS is piss weak

[serene hill]

she pulls him into the world so all the vessels can throw hands with him

[sinful nimbus]

Which is why you should grab some extras to make up for that

[whole holly]

thanks

[lapis creek]

well yeah but the power of 1 higher being needs to be consumed to do it with a shitty temu flower that collapses after 5 minutes of doing its job

[dire lynx]

Nah, for the good ending

[stray fog]

And the pale king is probably as distant of a memory as the everbloom

[cedar skiff]

the form pk takes on in hk is comparably weak if not even more so

[sinful nimbus]

Which is more effective against the void than PK himself according to WL

[sinful nimbus]

Is it though

[serene hill]

we dunno if hornet even met the pale king, he showed his true form to very few

[sinful nimbus]

I don't recall tiny PK being sealed by his own creations

[dire lynx]

Based on what

[sinful nimbus]

I also don't recall him being beaten up by a mortal

[stray fog]

Its resistance against void is probably not what matters in its difficulty in being remembered

[serene hill]

hornet isnt a mortal

[cedar skiff]

i also dont recall gms dying to a mysterious ambiguous cause

[stray fog]

We never see the pale king throw hands

[cedar skiff]

yeah cause he cant

[dire lynx]

Prove it

[cedar skiff]

gms has onscreen feats

pk doesnt

[serene hill]

i could punt him across the room

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she died to an unambiguous cause which is really really embarrassing for her

[stray fog]

Pk had an entire kingdom glazing him
He didn't need to fight

[sinful nimbus]

With PK the most likely option seems to be grief or suicide which is tuff it means he could only die to himself 🗣️

[cedar skiff]

“most likely”

show me proof huh

[lyric rose]

PK ate his way through Kingdom’s Edge

[cedar skiff]

the pk had to create little servants cause he wouldnt take radiance head on meanwhile gms wrestled with the void

the king of hallownest is WASHED and a FRAUD

[serene hill]

pk wasnt glazed for his physical strength he was glazed for his politics and inspiring godly devotion

[cedar skiff]

fact checked by true pharloomian patriots

[dire lynx]

Nobody could fight the bitch hiding in a different realm

[serene hill]

pale king fled into his own mind palace

[lyric rose]

It’s impossible to take radiance head on without a vessel hollow enough to contain it yet not hollow enough to be completely impossible to enter the dreams of

[whole holly]

he was assassinated by Steel Assassin Sharpe for messing with void, PK more like JFK

[dire lynx]

Its impossible without the dreamnail, THK didnt fight radiance

[serene hill]

pale eff kennedy

[lyric rose]

I mean a vessel to enter the mind of

[sinful nimbus]

I mean he pissed off to the dream realm after his beloved kid was doomed to an eternity of torture along with his kingdom, the entire thing is boobytrapped to keep anyone out and we know the vessel project as a whole took a toll on him mentally

[cedar skiff]

well pk still has no onscreen feats and gms does

so what now

[lyric rose]

For someone else to access the radiance

[sinful nimbus]

In the absence of an alternative it seems the most likely

[serene hill]

it took a toll on everyone mentally

[stray fog]

So they aren't comparable

[sinful nimbus]

only onscreen feat is dying btw

[cedar skiff]

well in powerscaling terms that makes gms factually stronger

[lyric rose]

Silk still went comatose from some dang song

[sinful nimbus]

Goddess of magic doesn't use magic btw she throws rocks at you 🥀

[lyric rose]

Radiance would wreck silk cuz she’s always dreaming

[cedar skiff]

goddess of magic??

[serene hill]

pk was a coward and a fool for running away from the people who needed him most. he left people like soul master to deal with the aftermath

[cedar skiff]

were just making shit up now

[sinful nimbus]

Silk is magic

[lyric rose]

S I L K

SHES THE GODDESS OF SILK

ITS HER NAME

[whole holly]

what if GMS got infected

[dire lynx]

Goddess of silk(form of soul[magic])

[serene hill]

pale king fumbled white lady no wonder he killed himself

[lyric rose]

Sounds terrifying

[serene hill]

im not sure if a pale being can be infected

[whole holly]

i wanna fight GMS shaped infection

[dire lynx]

He didnt fumble her, they loved each other and she still does even at the time of the game

[stray fog]

Lost kin

[whole holly]

with enough power maybe, even Hollow knight got infected

[lyric rose]

If there is a possibility for a pale being to be infected then silk could’ve be the perfect host for the radiance

[serene hill]

it was already dead + its not rly a pale being, its void

[pale narwhal]

I'm not even sure higher beings in general can
hed dreams affected mortal bugs

[charred bear]

Are pale beings and higher beings the same thing?

[stray fog]

There are non higher pale beings

[sinful nimbus]

Grand Mother Silk

Ran out of silk and has to scrounge up any scraps of silk she can get her hands on
Barely uses silk in her fight
Can magically sense silk but still fell for the Citadel trap either
Gets murdered by a creation of her creation which is more skilled at silk use for some reason

[pale narwhal]

where?

[sinful nimbus]

D tier higher being

[cedar skiff]

All im hearing gms has a mentality gap too because pk killed himself after assuming defeat while gms was willing to fight against the void despite it being futile anyway

[stray fog]

Pale stag, lace, hornet, vessels

[floral venture]

There are higher beings that aren't pale, too. Unn, for example

[charred bear]

I guess the guys who bow down to you at white palace

[stray fog]

Yes

[serene hill]

no, pale beings are stronger/more godly than other higher beings, they're supposed to be at the top of the higher being power scale

[cedar skiff]

ok i can’t powerscale anymore enough im traumatised from one piece powerscalers

[dire lynx]

The goat

[pale narwhal]

no, theyre just royal retainers
mortal bugs in the kings service

[lyric rose]

Silk’s got less hp than a fucking infected, one armed, suicidal hollow knight

[stray fog]

Doesn't hornet deal less damage too?

Everything is scaled down

[serene hill]

radiance is theoretically a lesser goddess in comparison to grand mother silk which is crazy in terms of gameplay because radiance at her prime makes gms look like the tutorial boss

[charred bear]

You don't wanna powerscale both the games man

[whole holly]

worse than Nyleth and Isma in narrative sense

[charred bear]

Hornet deals more I think

[lyric rose]

It’s a joke

[charred bear]

If max dps

[sinful nimbus]

To rally against nature is folly, all things must accept an end. Pale King embraced this fact after realizing the folly of his so called "Eternal Kingdom", while Grandmother Silk thrashed around endlessly, selfishly, as the entire world around her crumbled.

[lyric rose]

Hornet does the same nail damage per hit

[charred bear]

Ik lol

[lyric rose]

The defenses mess things up

[sinful nimbus]

To say GMS is mentally stronger for denying the inevitable is absurd

[stray fog]

I saw that mod that lets you play as the knight and everything dies in like 8 hits

[whole holly]

unn's fan emoting on my messages, lol

[floral venture]

Tbf we haven't seen GMS at her prime, plus is there really anything to say that Pale beings are all the top of the higher being chain?

[pale narwhal]

1. we dont know that the pale stag is related to pale beings
2. lace is not a mortal bug
3. hornet is half pale, half mortal
4. vessels would be pale pale if theh werent stillborn

[serene hill]

i think gms is only so weak because she was asleep for like a thousand years + she spreads her power throughout pharloom via the haunting

[charred bear]

Yeah because max nail=max needle

[cedar skiff]

but the pk didnt accept an end for his kingdom he instead moulded millions of babies to contain his shortcoming instead of facing it head on

[charred bear]

Max needle also kills stuff in 8 hits

[cedar skiff]

the way were both trying to defend bums

[sinful nimbus]

That was Hallownest's Folly yes

He realized his mistake later

[charred bear]

Good old baby bin aka the abyss

[stray fog]

Its a pale stag so it's gotta be a pale being

Lace isn't a higher being, which is what the question was about

[serene hill]

he made his babies to face his problems for him i hate him so much

[lyric rose]

Pale lurker isn’t a pale being

[whole holly]

it's not even Pale, it is Paletouched

[sinful nimbus]

How would he face his problems head on that would be impossible

[charred bear]

Hey don't blame him it's a good strat

[dire lynx]

You cant face the radiance without the dream nail, something PK had no access to

[cedar skiff]

gms faced the void head on this might be a silk issue

[charred bear]

Just throw your debt onto your children

[sinful nimbus]

PK can enter the dream realm

[serene hill]

pk made a mind palace

[sinful nimbus]

She wouldn't win

[serene hill]

https://tenor.com/view/the-radiance-hollow-knight-pale-king-watch-your-tone-watch-your-tone-mf-gif-25105189

[lyric rose]

The radiance had to be dragged down by the void or annihilated by the SHADE LORD depending on the ending

[cedar skiff]

anyway sometimes i question if gms even has an actual consciousness and personality or if shes just driven by primal instincts

[heavy gyro]

PK's wyrm form solos the verse

[cedar skiff]

she really doesn’t do shit

[lyric rose]

Silk got dragged by the void immediately

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway TL;DR dragons cool spiders are not

[cedar skiff]

we get an entire manifestation of the pks mind but shes just there it’s hilarious kinda

[lyric rose]

The radiance falls, gets caught by void tendrils

[charred bear]

I mean the sun vs thread who would win

[lyric rose]

Then BREAKS FREE

[stray fog]

Shes called a beast in the poem

[hasty ginkgo]

Hahahhahhhaa

[dire lynx]

His specific subset of the dream realm

[floral venture]

Void is a whole other thing

[hasty ginkgo]

hahhahahahaha

[cedar skiff]

dragons is a stretch but big ass worms are still cool

[sinful nimbus]

?

[hasty ginkgo]

fools

no one insults me

[lyric rose]

The radiance managed to break out of the void tendrils

[serene hill]

you should play rain world it has the void in it the void consumes all

[lyric rose]

Silk did not

[hasty ginkgo]

except maybe a few peoole

[sinful nimbus]

They are named after dragons and have various magical traits associated with them

[hasty ginkgo]

but no one here

[ornate pier]

I don't think that means they're actually dragons

[lyric rose]

She just made a bunker of silk after she got there

[ornate pier]

Just wormlike beings

[sinful nimbus]

Also calling them dragons conveys the majesty of the glorious kinglight better than comparing him to the lowly worm

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/not-a-sigma-sorry-you-are-not-a-sigma-sorry-you're-not-a-sigma-you-aren't-a-sigma-you-are-not-sigma-gif-337838532227751572

[dire lynx]

The different dream colours, PK's is silver, unns is green, nightmare hearts is red and the more generic dream realms is gold

[serene hill]

hes not a dragon hes an ugly pathetic worm

[cedar skiff]

he is a worm by all means in canon though

a really cool one

[ornate pier]

I think she does

[cedar skiff]

not too much on cool worms

[lyric rose]

He’s like a Bobbit worm

[ornate pier]

Cause of like what we know of weavers' interactions with her

[sinful nimbus]

Not sure why that matters at all

[ornate pier]

Seems like she could communicate with them

[sinful nimbus]

Worms in canon are stuff like shadow creepers

[cedar skiff]

it has aura

[sinful nimbus]

Wyrms are wyrms as in dragons

That's what they are called

They're dragons and they're cool

[ornate pier]

Why would they be dragons in a Bug world

[stray fog]

Mushrooms, slugs, snails:

[ornate pier]

I just think it's like a cool naming thing

[sinful nimbus]

Pretending like there's a setting where dragons don't belong

[ornate pier]

Mushrooms yeah but slugs get lumped in with bugs

[cedar skiff]

i really dont think dragon wyrm was the intention but i cant deny its a cool reading

[ornate pier]

And mushrooms are kind of a special case

[serene hill]

grand mother silk is only so weak because she hasn't called up step mother silk, silk mother in law, and great grand mother silk

[sinful nimbus]

I mean its wordplay

[ornate pier]

Dragons are Reptiles

[sinful nimbus]

They are dragons that are like worms hence wyrm

[ornate pier]

Yeah that's whatni think

[serene hill]

jellyfish 🩵

[heavy gyro]

Is the top of pk's head actually his mouth

[ornate pier]

Wyrms are like serpentine dragons irl

[stray fog]

Pk looks serpentine
Like wyrms

[ornate pier]

So you call a magical worm a wyrm in a bug game

[cedar skiff]

that could be his ass for all we know

[serene hill]

if pk was a dragon how come he didnt just spit fire at the radiance smh

[dire lynx]

The entirety of PK's dream realm is silver, including the clouds. Whereas the place radiance and most ordinary bugs dreams take place is yellow. Presumably its a seperate part of the dream realm

[sinful nimbus]

Soul fire is a thing

[stray fog]

Minecraft

[sinful nimbus]

Color isn't indicated to matter too much especially not when it comes to splitting the veil

[whole holly]

bug-sized critters vs huge ass dragon

[stray fog]

Yeah pk's body is huge

[sinful nimbus]

The only distinction we know if is of the normal dream realm and the nightmare realm and even then you can still access both normally

[whole holly]

i am pretty sure that's wyvern

[dire lynx]

With the dream nail

[sinful nimbus]

And Radiance is in his child's head

[heavy gyro]

wyrms are just dragons that have no limbs and live underground

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah?

[dire lynx]

Do ya know what pale king doesnt have

[sinful nimbus]

Dream Nail isn't indicated to be this ultra busted tool that is the only thing that can access every type of dream

[lyric rose]

Money

buzzsaw debt

[sinful nimbus]

Because there being multiple types of dreams beyond regular and nightmare is baseless

[whole holly]

huge worm compared to bugs vs huge dragon compared to humans

[sinful nimbus]

And realistically why would he be able to access a kingsmoulds head but not his own childs

[stray fog]

Did tc make everything to scale

[whole holly]

to relative bug scale, sure

[lyric rose]

probably because kingsmolds aren’t designed to be the container for the radiance

[dire lynx]

The kingsmoulds only have thoughts because the pale king imprinted his own will/directive into them

[sinful nimbus]

Uh that isn't his mind

He used essence moulds

[whole holly]

that is true, they contain essence, soul , void

[cedar skiff]

so what is voltvyrm

[sinful nimbus]

Nest of worms

[whole holly]

worm in coral reefs

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly "vyrm" is the name for wyrm nests and it was just named after that

[lyric rose]

a friggin Christmas tree worm

[dire lynx]

Zappy worm

[whole holly]

we better see purple wyrm and plant higher being in next game

[dire lynx]

*black

[lyric rose]

Nyleth MIGHT count as a higher being

But a weaker one

[whole holly]

not

[lyric rose]

I dunno

Something like Unn

[dire lynx]

Nyleth is just a flower

[whole holly]

isma too

[whole holly]

same way unn is just a slug and void is just a petroleum

[dire lynx]

Unn dreamt the moss into reality, nyleth just planted seeds.

Shes not a higher being

[whole holly]

both resulted in same thing

[dire lynx]

Ok?

[whole holly]

you don't know criteria though

[whole holly]

why does method matter

[dire lynx]

Is the the caterpillar in queens gardens a higher being?

She also grew a ton of plants

[hasty ginkgo]

Marmu?

[dire lynx]

Thats the one

[hasty ginkgo]

yes

Definitely

It has a fake face

[whole holly]

that is not relevant to my point though

[dire lynx]

"Why does method matter"

Because ANYONE can grow a forest if they plant enough seeds

[whole holly]

source

[lone folio]

Mrbeast is a god because he planted 1000 trees

its obvious

[whole holly]

and unn did that with essence too

[dire lynx]

Shes the gardener of queens gardens, and it has unique plants

[dire lynx]

Unn created life from nothing

[whole holly]

what is source for that?

[lone folio]

so a wizard with plant magic is as magical as timmy the farmer who has a sack of 4897 seeds?

[whole holly]

nyleth and unn both did it entirely on her own, if essence magic is neccesary to be HB, White lady has not displayed it

[lone folio]

Timmy the farmer also plants trees by himself

[dire lynx]

I misremembered, Marmu is a guardian (somehow). Doesnt change my point that anybody can grow a garden

[whole holly]

are they part of his innate biology

[heavy gyro]

growing a garden and creating an entire ecosystem is quite different

[dire lynx]

So every plant is a higher being?

[lone folio]

so the wizard is also not magical because he isnt a plant

[whole holly]

that's mischaracterization of my point

[whole holly]

?

[lone folio]

well he has plant powers but he doesnt have plants in his biology

[dire lynx]

How is it crazy for a flower to reproduce and create more plants with the same type of flower

[lone folio]

though i may be going a bit off point

[whole holly]

point is that nyleth and unn accomplished same thing, but game doesn't state that you have to do it with essence or any type of magic

and unn isn't confirmed actually : https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/6rvds8/comment/dl8567s/ TC confirmed Radiance, Wyrm and Root

[dire lynx]

White lady has at least some mastery over soul

[lone folio]

well yeah but being a god isnt someone who just puts alot of effort into their work

[dire lynx]

The original question asked if nyleth was a higher being

[whole holly]

higher being isn't even defined in Game, they just mean above all bugs

[whole holly]

answer was she could be, you said she couldn't, but it can't be ruled out actually

we have no way of ruling out Nyleth being higher being

[fervent sigil]

if nyleth made shellwood, can an average pilgrim like pilby make one?

[dire lynx]

If they had enough seeds and a far longer lifespan

[lone folio]

cant be ruled out but if she just planted alot of seeds then she isnt a higher being

[whole holly]

we are saying she could be

[lone folio]

there is a mention of "the higher cast"

[fervent sigil]

to define higher beings look at all the canon higher beings and see what they share

[dire lynx]

We have no reason to think such, nyleth isnt demonstrated to have any kind of magic power

[lone folio]

being pretty big

[whole holly]

because gardeners aren't usually connected to all living things of garden or maintain garden with presence

[fervent sigil]

more lifespan, more power

[dire lynx]

Did you know plants are all connected by their roots and the mycelium growing in them

[dire lynx]

Magic mastery of some sort

[whole holly]

plants don't have mycelium mushrooms do, but nyleth can't only be connected to roots physically, she can be detached from it too

and Unn isn't higher being either

[whole holly]

.

[fervent sigil]

is nyleth a magic mystery?

[dire lynx]

Mushroom mycelium grows around plant roots amd helps carry signals for the host plants

[lone folio]

what

[whole holly]

point me to mushrooms in shellwood

[whole holly]

still doesn't apply if she can detach from it

[fervent sigil]

all higher beings use ESSENCE of some sort

[dire lynx]

The mycelium is irrelivant to shellwood, i only explained because you complained about its mentioning

[lone folio]

yeah its not mentioned but she is one. Godseekers kind of confirm that honestly

[fervent sigil]

idk abt shade lord

[whole holly]

i didn't complain, lol

[lone folio]

GMS

[dire lynx]

Plants can communicate to each other through their roots

[fervent sigil]

isnt a higher being.

[lone folio]

im done

[fervent sigil]

shes more like a pale one

[whole holly]

Godseeker's say she is God

[lone folio]

im leaving

this is ragebait 😭

[lone folio]

god is higher being

[fervent sigil]

Even pale nails explain that

[lone folio]

in the hollow knight world

[whole holly]

but again, Nyleth could be connected to divine power, she could be higher being, that was entire point

[minor belfry]

you understand pale beings are higher beings, correct?

[ornate pier]

Godseekers call everyone gods but I think unn having a room similar to PK and wl implies her being a higher being

[lone folio]

pale creatures can also be higher beings

[fervent sigil]

ik they are but do they use essence of some sort?

[lone folio]

so why did you say she isnt 😭

[minor belfry]

No? Why would that matter?
Essence does NOT require being a higher being.

[fervent sigil]

i said she was a pale one

[fervent sigil]

.

[lone folio]

still a higher being

[minor belfry]

Sorry other way around
Higher beings don't require using essence*

[lone folio]

EARLIER

[lone folio]

.

[minor belfry]

.

[whole holly]

exactly, people were saying Unn was only HB because of Essence , but she isn't confirmed HB either

[heavy gyro]

higher beings are just any creature that exist above all others

[fervent sigil]

"pale ONE" as in pale higher beings, holy hell

[minor belfry]

She is confirmed to be a higher being by the fact that she has a group of bugs she literally CREATED

[lone folio]

LOOK AT WHAT YOU SAID

[minor belfry]

If that doesn't make her a higher being what does

[minor belfry]

guarantee you this is ragebait

[lone folio]

oh it defently is

[whole holly]

caste wise, physical power wise, metaphysical power wise, height wise, or location wise?

[fervent sigil]

isnt.

[minor belfry]

General power wise

[whole holly]

that's implication not confirmation

[heavy gyro]

its what team cherry said

[fervent sigil]

i wish everyone wasnt so petty

[minor belfry]

I'm not doing this bullshit with you again

[whole holly]

both meta and power wise? combination of both? are you saying caste doesn't make difference

[minor belfry]

What do you mean by caste

[whole holly]

you are source of said bullshit though

[whole holly]

like status, social status among bugs

[lone folio]

im done 😭

this ragebait is insane

[whole holly]

so am i

[whole holly]

hey, own up to your mistakes next time okay?

[minor belfry]

Weren't you the one who criticized the stuff that we're shown as "unfounded" and then said your own wild ass theory with no evidence for

[fervent sigil]

"yes i argue to a person who's english is a second language"

[dire lynx]

Yes

[lone folio]

i mean nyleth being a higher being isnt too bad of a theory

[whole holly]

hey, that's because you kept mischaracterizing my point

[lone folio]

yeah you argued with me english is also my second language

[whole holly]

i am only saying she could be

[whole holly]

me too

[lone folio]

yes i know

thats what the word "theory" is

its all speculation and that awesome stuff

any theory anyone makes is a "could be"

[pale narwhal]

yea most people online dont have english as their first language

[fervent sigil]

and some people online arent good at their second language

[whole holly]

yeah but i want to talk about implications without getting attacked

[lone folio]

me too hi i make constant grammar mistakes and punctiation issues

[whole holly]

without snide remarks

[lone folio]

anyways

[stuck nymph]

Found this message so decided to share my take on this old message

I think they can since the only reason they werent haunted is because they were to high, if anything cones closer they can just aswell be haunted

[pale narwhal]

yes, this isnt unique about you
you're accusing them of attacking you for something that is true of other people in the same conversation

[dire lynx]

You are the knob who constatly takes shots at Unn just to piss me off unc

[whole holly]

you started the war and i have to intervene a lot with you, nothing personal, i thought since it was mutual it was just fun and jokes, i wasn't talking about you btw

[whole holly]

if there was Isma number one fan this would be more hilarious and dramatic as well

umm? did you delete msg?

[fervent sigil]

mods

[dire lynx]

If you have an actual reason to suspect nyleth of being higher i wouldnt have issue, but as it stands its quite baseless speculation, nyleth doesnt show any kind of magic powers so i dont think its reasonable to think of her as higher.

Shes clearly powerful, but no reason to think shes higher. Im not goimg to continue this point any further, its possible she is but its also possible khann is (at least he has a magical ability)

[fervent sigil]

coral bending

[whole holly]

well, yes, but Nyleth is really powerful but sheer scale and she is only one plant being who has demonstrated that power, she might have magical abilities that we might not be aware of, but that's not what makes Nyleth great, it is fact that she is unique in narrative sense, she doesn't need to be higher being to be comparable to one or to be good character, she is force of nature(literally) that made pact with citadel, she has mother nature themes, and nyleth fans love her for it

just sad that you called her Featless Jobless bum

[dire lynx]

she doesnt have feats, and she peaced out for no reason, i suppose shes not a bum tho

[whole holly]

what do you consider feat tho?

[fervent sigil]

say like

hard achievement

idk

[dire lynx]

like some showing of her ability, she grew a forest but that isnt immediately impressive if it happenned only after a long time of regular growth

[whole holly]

i always thought Shrine Guardian Seth thing was her doing

but she controls plant platforms same way khann controls coral

[fervent sigil]

which theorizes she is a higher being

[dire lynx]

i dont think khann is a higher being either

i just think they are powerful mortals

and khanns is still more impressive, because coral doesnt move on its own

[whole holly]

i mean neither can plants, unn can't accomplish moving plants either, to judge by scale, nyleth is seemingly immortal, she has to be killed to presumably die, unlike others who definitely aren't immortal

[dire lynx]

plants can move, and we never see unn in combat, she probably can considering she has the magic capacity to just will life into existance

[whole holly]

plants can move? do you mean carnivorous plants? because Coral can trap prey too, with anemones or similar sealife living there

[dire lynx]

\sunflowers rotating their heads to face the sun, or the shameplant that curls its leaves away after contact

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnKqXYyO0ic

[whole holly]

nyleth has similar feats to unn, because they both created life out nothing

[dire lynx]

no, nyleth is a plant, and the plants of shellwood are the same species as her. we arent going over this again

[whole holly]

they aren't movements in conventional sense

[dire lynx]

she reproduced, unn dreamt something into existance

[dire lynx]

more mobility than a hard coral has ever produced

[whole holly]

Nyleth by her scale of reproduction surpasses White Lady

[dire lynx]

no

[whole holly]

?

White Lady can't reproduce to create new region, Nyleth can

[dire lynx]

the plants she seeded are also capable of reproducing, and we dont know the timescale for the creation of shellwood

[dire lynx]

white lady makes beings not more plants, the products of their reproduction are not equivalent

[whole holly]

sure but she is connected to all living things of shellwood, not just plants, which doesn't make sense physically since roots can't be explanation

[dire lynx]

the humble splinter:

[whole holly]

?

[dire lynx]

splinters live in shellwood and are explicitly NOT related to nyleth

[whole holly]

she is at least better than unn and white lady at maintenance, because her presence maintains fragile order of shellwood

[dire lynx]

once again the humble splinter:

[whole holly]

game still says : connected to all its living things.

[whole holly]

i don't understand how it is relevant, when comparing effectiveness to much more infested greenpath and queen's gardens since we are relatively speaking

[dire lynx]

"Imposing old insect nesting in the heights of Shellwood. Her command of twig and branch ensured no pilgrim ever survived her territory."

good job maintaining order

also the demonic greyroot who set up shop

[whole holly]

we are relatively speaking, and shellwood is more maintained than queen's gardens, maybe read my comment

[dire lynx]

white lady intentiaonally cut her power off and the workers fell to the infection, of course the gardens would fall to disrepair

[whole holly]

yes but comparatively, shellwood is better maintained that's to nyleth's general presence, you still aren't reading my points

[dire lynx]

because shellwood is created by regular plant growth, not sustained by magic

[whole holly]

it is sustained by her presence, and shellwood is fragile, arguably more so than greenpath and queen's gardens

[dire lynx]

and shellwoods plants arent being attacked by an elder god

[dire lynx]

no, the order of the woods was maintained. the wood sustains itself

"Her presence would once have maintained the wood's fragile order, allowing the safe passage of bugs across its branches."

in contrast with sister splinters entry

[whole holly]

woods sustaining itself is disproven by fact that shellwood is fragile ecosystem

[pale narwhal]

there is literally zero evidence that sister splinter has anything to do with maintaining the woods

[whole holly]

i am talking about nyleth, she sustains by her presence

[dire lynx]

its not, the order of shellwood is fragile, as proven by the splinter takeover the second nyleth goes for a nap

[whole holly]

order reflects on ecosystem lol, splinter proves that, she is doing okay when comparing shellwood to higher beings sustained lands which are arguably in worse shape, that's my entire point

[dire lynx]

the order is nothing to do with the ecosystem, read the entry. it only talks about the passage of bugs through her domain

[whole holly]

and fact that she is connected to inhabitants which is inherently magical, to plants and bugs alike

[whole holly]

it does, maintained ecosystem is order, and bugs go through her doman because of lack of invasion

[dire lynx]

you are making stuff up

the order is in reference to the passage of bugs

[whole holly]

but again, she is doing better when comparing shellwood to higher beings sustained lands which are arguably in worse shape, that's my entire point

[dire lynx]

SHES NOT DOING ANYTHING

she went to sleep

and let the splinters take over

This land is ours, now!
By our claws, none but us now!
Sisters, sisters, so long gone!

[whole holly]

but her presence is doing something confirmed by game, and still in better shape than Queen's Garden, White Lady or Unn should be able to surpass her but they can't

[dire lynx]

her presence is doing nothing, when she was active she maintained order, but that is no longer the case

[whole holly]

just logical reasoning, since splinters are invasive, which skews balance of ecosystem

[dire lynx]

Her presence would ONCE have maintained the wood's fragile order, allowing the safe passage of bugs across its branches.

[whole holly]

even still, Higher Beings can't surpass nyleth, active or not

[dire lynx]

what do you mean

[whole holly]

she is doing better when comparing shellwood to higher beings sustained lands which are arguably in worse shape, that's my entire point, regardless of whether or not she is active

[dire lynx]

if i planted a bunch of trees and after i died the forest continued to do well, would that indicate my capability or simply be what is expected

shellwood also wasnt being attacked by a higher being

[frosty turret]

Does tk just live in the void now?

[whole holly]

it indicates resilience, compared to Unn's and White Lady's vegetation which are overrun and overgrown

[dire lynx]

yes

[dire lynx]

AFTER AN ELDER GOD TOOK OVER

[lean temple]

It seems the place was mostly left alone, perhaps because it didn't have a civilization and just Nyelth and maybe some splinters

[whole holly]

if you mean Infection, Shellwood was impacted by haunting, whether Higher Being attacked her or not

[whole holly]

Shellwood similarly had to endure haunting

[dire lynx]

THE HAUNTING DIDNT ATTACK THE VERY PLANTS THAT FORMED THE ENVIRONMENT

[whole holly]

it impacted living things and even Floral Foes which have needolin dialogue and silk around dialogue, you could say same infection, it didn't attack plants per say, living things

[dire lynx]

AND AGAIN, SHELLWOOD IS GROWN NOT CREATED. UNN IS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN GREENPATH BECUASE ITS A PLACE ILL SUITED TO PLANT LIFE.

SHELLWOOD ONLY EXISTS BECAUSE THE AREA WAS ALREADY SUITABLE FOR PLANTS TO GROW

[whole holly]

that doesn't disprove my point, and you are arguing sematics

[whole holly]

source?

who said Greenpath is ill suited and Shellwood well suited

[dire lynx]

there was no green in greepath before unn deamt it so, nyleth showed up and planted seeds. seeds wont grow unless the environment is ideal

[whole holly]

Shellwood happened all by nyleth and greenpath also all by unn, pretty direct comparasion

[dire lynx]

a wizard magics plants from nothing and a farmer grows them from seeds. NOT THE SAME

THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY NOT THE SAME

[fervent sigil]

holy moly you guys are still arguing, this is worse than my server

[dire lynx]

THIS GUY IS SO FUCKING STUPID

[whole holly]

1. doesn't indicate that environment was ill suited 2. some seeds can endure harsh enviroments

[whole holly]

semantics, seeds came from nyleths body(she is seed actually), and vegetation in greenpath is from unn's mind

[whole holly]

excuse you, you haven't had any intelligent point yet, you just make assumptions and run with it, nothing imlies greenpath was ill suited

[fervent sigil]

Unn: made greenpath with dream magic stuff
Nyleth: the seed that grew into shellwood (currently unknown if she has magic powers)

one of you is ragebaiting the other

[dire lynx]

rvnz, any lore questions or enquiries?

[heavy gyro]

Nearly 2 hour convo btw

[whole holly]

origins of those forestry/vegetation doesn't disprove one is inherently more stable to ther, Shellwood beats Greenpath any day, if anything product of Higher Being should have advantage tbh

[whole holly]

can't believe it either

she blocked me , lmao, all because she couldn't win on merit and called me stupid

[lean temple]

The fact that one is physical while the other is made from DREAM is a good point. And not like greenpath is rotting away. It and QG are still the most vibrant places in Hallownest

"Hidden Unn, we need you now.
We grow tired away from you.
Our leaves are falling."

Unn weakening is directly connected with the Mosskin's vitality.

I wonder why QG doesn't have any mosskin tablets. Maybe Hallownest had them removed.

[dire lynx]

probably

[fervent sigil]

is QG a part of greenpath WL took?

[whole holly]

well it makes sense, but Hallownest is abundant with Dreams/Essence, White Lady, Unn and Radiance seem to be source of Light/Essence Greenpath, QG and Fog Canyon Flora need, Moss Prophet says we must embrace Radiance's Light because she is source of Light we require, and Flora in Queen's Garden seems overgrown, just saying that Flora unn created is not really at disadvantage

[dire lynx]

yes

Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead.
It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream.
Be wary to wander that place.

[fervent sigil]

then WL or other people removed it because its the queens garden

[whole holly]

given how positively flora react to different sources of Essence/Light/Dream, can't say same for Mosskin, but Nyleth's Shellwood seems more resilient despite Flora being at arguably worse disadvantage with haunting which isn't beneficial, and Splinters too

[viscid ridge]

What are they arguing about? 🤣

[dire lynx]

thats what we were postulating

[whole holly]

in my next run, i will probably take hearts of Karmelita, Khann and Green Dancer, and spare Nyleth altogether, unless we need it in DLC

[fervent sigil]

unn vs nyleth, whos stronger!!

[dire lynx]

more like, the fundamental difference between magically creating and sustaining an ecosystem vs seeding one and letting it run

[viscid ridge]

My gut feeling says pre weakening Unn, considering she is a higher being, while nyleth is just a big plant

[whole holly]

despite fundamentally different origins, it makes sense foliage by HB should have advantage

[viscid ridge]

That seems like a pretty straightforward question what were you guys arguing about lmao

[whole holly]

if she weakened by creating plants, was she ever strong

[dire lynx]

the dumbass is dense, essentially

[viscid ridge]

Who nika?

[whole holly]

"Dumbass" goes by name Unn Fan😂

[dire lynx]

yup

[viscid ridge]

Yea that tracks 💀😅

[whole holly]

well , she couldn't win argument by logic or evidence

[viscid ridge]

Did you guys really keep this up for 2 hours +?

[whole holly]

she kept repeating same dumb stuff

[whole holly]

the dumbass is dense, quintessentially

[ornate pier]

Who is she

[whole holly]

#1 unn fan

lol

[viscid ridge]

Respectively nika, talking to u is kinda like this

[whole holly]

i mean, if you really care, you could view arguments, i felt same when talking to her promise

[lean temple]

They need UNN specifically, and she is waning. And yeah Radiance brainwashed Moss Prophet and killed him, how kind of her.

[whole holly]

that picture could have solved problems from start

[lean temple]

And the Mosskin aren't fond of WL

This now makes more sense given the reputation Pale Beings have (devotion or destruction)

[whole holly]

well, yes, but if we are going to compare their plant life, exhaustion from dreaming is pretty big weakness and makes mosskin and moss vegetation inherently inferior to nyleth who at similar scale built more stable ecosystem, i repeated that point over and over, but she kept ignoring it because it didn't suit her, i don't think Nyleth is stronger or more divine than Unn, just more accomplished, despite fact that plant life created by both aren't comparable, one method is inherently better than other

Data over Dogma, i guess

[lean temple]

I can see that. Arguably Shellwood did suffer from losing Nyleth by becoming more hostile

But I think being created from dreams is both a feat and a weakness

[whole holly]

shellwood arguably successfully endured more, than Greenpath, Queen's Garden, in we consider Infection analogous to Haunting

she also said that Nyleth is only strong has no magical powers, even though Nyleth is connected to all Shellwood's Life (including bugs) most likely native ones

[lean temple]

Neither plague targeted the plant life itself, moreso the sapient creatures therein.

[lean temple]

Well yeah she isn't completely normal, like the other Old Hearts. But she is still described as a mortal power like the others.

[whole holly]

i am aware, but she is incredibly cognitively dissonant

[dire lynx]

the infection overtook plantlife as well as the dreams of bugs(it even started forming its own organisms)

[whole holly]

but compared to others, She doesn't seem to die by natural causes but her current status is more ambiguous than other two, but she seems to be doing well until we grab her heart, i am aware memory is likely not her current form

[lean temple]

Well she seems to be almost dead. "The Voice" seems her only remaining effect on the world

[whole holly]

what suggests that, game says she is sleeping, which i imagine she sleeps like isma, hibernation and becoming one with Shellwood entirely, not existing in independent sense, which again is isma's status

[viscid ridge]

I have to point out that there is a chance that a lot of the thorned roots in greenpath and queens gardens seemed to be infected. I dont know what you guys are discussing, i just want to point that out.

[lean temple]

That is true

[dire lynx]

Children, children, hide and strike!
This land is ours, now!
By our claws, none but us now!
Sisters, sisters, so long gone!
Other, other, sleeping deep...

[whole holly]

that is clear, overgrowth is rampant compared to Shellwood

[viscid ridge]

<@&283547423706447872>

[lean temple]

Some sort of death like slumber? Or a different form existence to how she used to be

[dire lynx]

whatever it is, nyleth clearly holds no power now

[viscid ridge]

Can i ask where this is from i never heard it before?

[dire lynx]

sister splinter needolin

[whole holly]

nyleth at no power and unn at no power, when comparing two nyleth's lands seem to be faring better

considering both haunting and splinters, which is better than Queen's Gardens annexed from Greenpath, both overgrown and unstable

which is what discussion was about

since i completely finished act 3 100% full materium, what game should i play?

[lean temple]

Steel Soul mode

[fervent sigil]

unlock every shortcut, go to every secret room, hit every lever,

[whole holly]

okay, great suggestion honestly, lol

[whole holly]

i pretty much did, most at least

[fervent sigil]

and then do the same in steel soul

[whole holly]

witch crest ending doesn't sound exciting enough but i am getting mushroom ending

[whole holly]

i am not sure it is worth it, not really replayable game compared to hollow knight

[fervent sigil]

exciting enough? do you know what that shit did to 2 pale beings

[fervent sigil]

thats for true 100%

atleast its not worse than minecraft true 100%

[whole holly]

lol yeah

i will play nine sols and bo path of teal lotus, seems sane option to me

[fervent sigil]

ahem

[whole holly]

there are no games in communities that i am in

[fervent sigil]

good luck on NS

[whole holly]

thanks, hope it is as lore dense as HK

[fervent sigil]

if a game is good and it has lore, be ready for the sweaty lorers

[whole holly]

lol

i don't think i will be theorizing much anymore, especially in this channel, atmosphere is....

[fervent sigil]

i cant get into any games lore without having to argue with a guy who cares about the games lore more than they family

i need a rest until the dlc

[whole holly]

wisest person in this channel honestly

[cedar skiff]

free every silkfly%

i cant wait for this category

[muted lantern]

I've been doing challenge runs like limiting my max masks and tool use. But what other games to play it's hard to say, if you want more games like skong nine sols is pretty good, so is blasphemous

[sonic sleet]

Just realized that by killing green prince hornet gets rid of last verdanian alive

[lyric rose]

that we know of

[minor belfry]

you were proposing theories that ignore every piece of evidence to the contrary, without any evidence for, and ignoring corrections

[viscid ridge]

Thats nika for you

[muted lantern]

what even happened?

[minor belfry]

Last night he suggested that the Knight was the "focus" in void given focus and not the godseekers
He couldn't give a single piece of evidence or respond to any of the contrary evidence

[teal void]

I feel like tk helping hornet at the end resembles how in hk, Thk lost its emptiness, it developed an idea

[muted lantern]

how many silkflies are inside the average cogwork is the chorus the only one with multiple or are there more in some other larger constructs

[crystal marsh]

oh yeah

[crystal marsh]

THK was never empty

[minor belfry]

I mean, THK was at the veeery beginning (I assume)

Since the point of the PoP cutscene was to show how it was tarnished by an idea instilled

[wintry prairie]

Can’t believe the pale king would love his child smh

[sinful nimbus]

The whole dialogue about the idea instilled actually implies THK was always impure by saying its supposed strength was ill judged

The whole idea instilled thing is framed as evidence of impurity not a cause

There's also nothing linking the Path of Pain cutscene to that dialogue in the first place but I digress

[crystal marsh]

it was not, and the assumption that it was, was itself a mistake

[muted lantern]

aside from fourth chorus is there any cogworks with more than one silkfly inside?

[minor belfry]

the other three choruses

[muted lantern]

aside from that lol

[sinful nimbus]

I don't remember any dropping more than one and I don't see anything about that on the wiki

[minor belfry]

but the phrasing is tarnished by an idea instilled
doesn't that imply that it started pure and then was corrupted?

[crystal marsh]

incorrect:
"Its supposed strength was ill-judged. It was tarnished by an idea instilled."

[sinful nimbus]

Its supposed purity was lost not the actual thing

Its kinda unclear what exactly she's talking about but from the first sentence we can infer its not the literal purity that was lost

"It" could refer to THK

I like the interpretation that the idea instilled is Radiance herself as she's literally a living idea in a sense

[foggy fractal]

hello

[muted lantern]

the abyss cutscene where it turns around to look at tk i think is meant to imply it was never pure, an empty vessel wouldnt have hesitated like that

[foggy fractal]

💔 left tk to fall like undertail

[wintry prairie]

The idea of the vessels ever being pure was the pale king being delusional

[teal void]

at birth

It was given an idea at white palace

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/wing-gaster-chara-gif-460255226754081608

[foggy fractal]

🗣️

oh btw why did team cherry not add the little jingle that plays when you collect 4 mask shards and get a mask in silksong

is it because tk is more whimsical

[muted lantern]

thats just the noise tk makes when they collect something

[foggy fractal]

oh my bad

[crystal marsh]

it was not empty at birth as implied by the birthplace cutscene

[foggy fractal]

didn't know tk was so talented

[wintry prairie]

He’s a very good musician

[silk dirge]

i think the takeaway i got is being able to contain the radiance is a contradiction bc you need a mind to seal her away which is the exact opposite of the idea of being pure

[muted lantern]

cogwork clapper has 2 just killed one, are there any other large cogworks?

[minor belfry]

I mean, "hollow" is a poorly defined concept in HK, since the pale king tells us what it shouldn't have, but the white lady says the knight (which has said things) is a pure vessel
My personal take is that it's a pure lack of emotion that runs it, similar to how a computer works

[silk dirge]

i mean i think hollow just means able to indefinitely contain the radiance

the problem is to contain the radiance you have to be impure

[teal void]

that was a bit after its birth

[silk dirge]

bc you have to think of the radiance to contain it

or atleast thats how ive come to see it

[minor belfry]

hollow isn't ever defined in game except by contradictions
Also we have no idea how the Radiance was contained

[spark valve]

Purity isn’t well defined but it kind of doesn’t have to be for its narrative purpose as an unattainable goal anyways

[muted lantern]

wait, so cogwork clapper can be repaired right? how the hell do they get the silkflies back?

[silk dirge]

idk if they get repaired

i know cogworkers try to

but idk if they ever actually repair it

[minor belfry]

I assume they replace them with different ones?

[silk dirge]

ive never actually seen cogworkers repair anything

they always just try to repair it and nothing changes

[crystal marsh]

and yet it experienced nothing prior

[muted lantern]

If you return after fighting the clapper the first time, you find some cogworks repairing its shell, if you return again its back in place and fully functional

[silk dirge]

interesting

i knew about the second part

but i never knew they could actually get repaired

i assume tho if you destroy the corpse by dropping it into cogs it doesnt get repaired tho

[muted lantern]

I believe it doesnt if you do that

but yeah clapper gets put back in its spot and is staying there, its inactive until you hit it, drops a new item after too iirc

hm no item actually

wonder if it will come back a third time tho

[teal void]

So therefore, hollow

[muted lantern]

So anyway, clapper seems to have 2 silkflies, but thats the only other cogwork I can find with more than one (aside from the choruses) so maybe its a size threshold for when two are needed? is secsen big enough to need two or do you think they have just one.

the spear and shield ones are the closest in size and have only one

but maybe secsens seeming sentience is aided by having more?

[sonic sleet]

why weavers didn't try to kill GMS they were very powerful but still decided to hide or run

[crystal marsh]

so therefore not because it always had the capability from the beginning

[frigid belfry]

I mean we don’t really know, it’s kind of inferred that’s it’s really difficult to kill a hb, you can smack and trap or weaken them, but to fully get rid of them is extremely difficult, presumably the weavers needed one powerful enough to literally absorb gms’s esseence, which would require a strong weaver of hb descent

[narrow horizon]

THK was never pure, but it was always hollow

All of the vessels are hollow, just none of them (that we've seen, even our knight) have been pure

[crystal marsh]

correct

[narrow horizon]

It's not like they start pure and then something corrupts them, they just aren't pure from the start

[frigid belfry]

what defines hollow

[narrow horizon]

The emptiness they all share

They're hollowed out, filled with Void

[frigid belfry]

Thanks, I thought you were about to be one of those, the knight/thk never had feelings “enthusiasts”

[narrow horizon]

Nah they def do

that's what makes them not Pure

[barren beacon]

They objectively do

[narrow horizon]

Yea but some people try to say otherwise

[frigid belfry]

are you saying thk/t k have no feelings?

will/mind etc

[barren beacon]

What

no

I said they objectively do

[frigid belfry]

am illiterate I read wrong

[barren beacon]

How did you take it as that 😭

[barren beacon]

How

[frigid belfry]

some guy I debated with for like 40 mins argued that the knight had no will/mind/feelings even with the evidence I presented

[barren beacon]

What were his counter-arguments

Also what was your evidence

I hope it was Jinn's Dialogue, Voidheart and Winged Nosk at the very least.

[frigid belfry]

their argument was essentially that will doesnt equal feelings/sapience and the knight not speaking/ charm / godhome weren’t “canon” enough

[narrow horizon]

sitting at a bench for more than like 5 seconds has the vessel start resting which it does not need and shouldn't be capable of wanting to do

[barren beacon]

How the fuck are they not canon

[narrow horizon]

💀

[barren beacon]

Voidheart directly leads to an ending, are those endings not canon even when TC said they were?

[narrow horizon]

"Things that happen in game aren't canon cuz i said so"

[barren beacon]

Gng I'm getting mad just reading ts holy 😭

[frigid belfry]

I presented sotv, gh nosk, void memory, white lady/seer/hornet dialogue, literally all main motifs of the game that point to tk not being hollow

[barren beacon]

In these situations we simply click the Block Button and keep it pushing

Preferably ending the chat with a ragebait

[frigid belfry]

they also said thk was hollow and the reason he failed was because the radiance was too strong

not because he wasnot pure

??

[barren beacon]

White Lady's honest reaction :

[narrow horizon]

Ngl not as bad as the "Hollow Knight is a metaphor for toxic masculinity and TK is transmasc and accepting the kingsbrand and achieving void heart was it breaking through toxic masculinity and accept it's gender identity" guy

[barren beacon]

I'm praying it was rage bait

[barren beacon]

What

Who

Gng they're fucking genderless

[narrow horizon]

I will NEVER get over this

[frigid belfry]

Oh yeah he also said silksong was gay and bad

[foggy fractal]

this had to be ironic

[barren beacon]

What is this self-insert

[foggy fractal]

I keep hearing about it

[frigid belfry]

I wouldn’t exactly trust him

[barren beacon]

@narrow horizon PLEASE Tell me you have screenshots

I gotta see ts for myself

[narrow horizon]

i don't but you can search either in here or #hk-lore i forget which

[barren beacon]

What do I search

[narrow horizon]

Look up "masculinity" and you'll prolly find it fast

[frigid belfry]

a metaphor for toxic masculinity and TK is transmasc and accepting the kingsbrand and achieving void heart was it breaking through toxic masculinity and accept it's gender identity" guy

[narrow horizon]

Given the person is pretty active and talks in several channels often i'm pretty sure it isn't

[frigid belfry]

Found I

[barren beacon]

Of course it was starpengu

[frigid belfry]

Of course it’s star lmaoo

[barren beacon]

Why am I not surprised

[narrow horizon]

💀

[frigid belfry]

Maybe the dude I was arguing with was his alt

[barren beacon]

Starpengucould be among us

[narrow horizon]

he could be you

He could be me

[barren beacon]

It could be @narrow horizon , it could be @foggy fractal

It could very well be @barren beacon

Also fuck you for stealing my spy joke

😭

[narrow horizon]

😭😭 mb gang

but yeah most insane hk theory i've ever seen

Even worse than Matpat's dogshit theory lmao

like love you and all you've done bro but some of your theories are SOOOOO ASS

like Subnautica and HK especially

[sinful nimbus]

Wait, they're cooking?!

SS is about femininity HK is about masculinity it checks out

[foggy fractal]

then what is fearless fox gonna be about ?

[sinful nimbus]

Non binary...

[foggy fractal]

hungry knight ?

[lapis creek]

it's so interesting to me how star lives rent free in some peoples heads

[sinful nimbus]

i haven't played hungry knight tbh

[foggy fractal]

its like a 10 minute game

probably even less

[sinful nimbus]

Hungry Knight is adware...

[foggy fractal]

what does this mean for the hollow knight universe...

[sinful nimbus]

booting the game up

OK first impressions is that its also a critique on toxic masculinity

Not sure how the hungriness ties into the metaphor

[foggy fractal]

intresting...

[sinful nimbus]

i die in one hit?!

[lapis creek]

it's impossible

all toxic men are famously in control of their gluttony

[sinful nimbus]

this game mid af dawg

[narrow horizon]

just that theory

[foggy fractal]

GRRR

HOW DARE YOU...

[sinful nimbus]

it got powerups nevermind 🗣️

[lyric rose]

I mean she can’t possess you. You guys should have just went away and shipped her a hallownest seal every now and then to pretend you missed silk.

[lapis creek]

oh not the guy

[minor belfry]

well you see this is a metaphor for how when you're trapped in the toxic masculinity grindset (I must always be nimble, I must always be remorseless, I must not fail) you can never truly find inner peace and happiness, because you'll always be hungering for more

[foggy fractal]

🙏

[narrow horizon]

😭

[sinful nimbus]

Yea yea that's what I was thinking

Very much a precursor to HK

[foggy fractal]

early alita so cursed

[minor belfry]

team cherry 11 years ago having a deeper understanding of toxic masculinity than 99% of toxic masculinists 🔥

[lapis creek]

hungry knight is that character in a shakespearean tragedy who did one less bad thing than the protagonist and winds up relatively ok by the end

in this case the protagonist is

you guessed it

the hollow knight

[lyric rose]

or is it

hey vsauce Fecto here

[lapis creek]

thats why the game is named after him like macbeth or hamlet or a midsummer night's dream or othello

[lyric rose]

Who the heck names her son A Midsummer Night’s Dream?

[frigid belfry]

A Midsummer Night Dream Sr

[tight lichen]

What is mister mushroom talking about in this game

In hk he seems to be referencing previous projects by team cherry or something?

But in skong they're not as oddly specific

[minor belfry]

@gleaming thorn

[gleaming thorn]

Sup

[gleaming thorn]

Really?how was it implied that's so interesting I don't remember in that cutscene

[minor belfry]

during that whole conversation apparently
idk I thought what you think and they said I was wrong

[gleaming thorn]

I'm not the best at lore but how would he beat the radiance if he's not truly hollow

Changed my entire thoughts on it

Or it doesn't need you to be completely hollow?

I might have to re check the birthplace scene,hope someone posted on yt tbh

[muted lantern]

To kill radiance they didn't need to be hollow, to contain the radiance they need to be, but none of the vessels were hollow, which is why the containment failed and we find the world in the state it is, this is why the ending where you replace the hollow knight is likely a bad ending because the containment will fail eventually.

[gleaming thorn]

So the true ending isn't containing him but basically the void taking over him after beating?

Or weakening so the void takes over

That's very cool to know

[muted lantern]

true ending is instead of trying to contain the radiance to kill her outright

using the power of the void heart, uniting the void under their will

using the dream nail to face radiance in her own realm

[gleaming thorn]

Makes alot more sense to me

[muted lantern]

basically, containing the radiance was a doomed plan from the start.

but killing her is something the knight is capably of doing by uniting the void

[gleaming thorn]

I see,thank you

[frigid belfry]

He mentions the previous game, and hints that the third game will follow hornet aswell, or he will encounter hornet

[dry compass]

How old is Lace

[minor belfry]

we only have very vague estimates

[dry compass]

Then what are those estimates

[craggy smelt]

we have no idea, but she is said to have been created with the appearance of a child and a mind to match, and has been around for a long time.

[muted lantern]

we don't have a year count, but timeline wise she was possibly created around the same time the haunting began, when gms started to wake, but thats just a guess on my part

[craggy smelt]

kind've a 'created ages ago to be perpetually young' situation

[gloomy pasture]

Do you need a speedrun timer to submit a speedrun

[muted lantern]

Uh, this is the lore chat

[gloomy pasture]

no chats wants to answer me

[minor belfry]

check the speedrun.com rules

[muted lantern]

I mean probably because people don't know, I'm sure there's a better forum to ask your question, maybe there's like a speedrunning forum to ask on, or a subreddit ig. It depends where you are trying to submit speedruns probably.

[craggy smelt]

old hearts of Hallownest:
Vespa
Lord Fool
Flukemarm

[stray fog]

Replace flukemarm with the king of deepnest

[light mauve]

Probably non vessels just can’t withstand the presence of the radiance

[heavy gyro]

Nah flukemarm makes sense, both it and nyleth are bosses that have created an ecosystem, and bosses that you just pogo

[stark ocean]

flukemarm is a higher being being

!

[light mauve]

What about the uh the traitor lord

[stark ocean]

in that case the mantis lords should also have ah eart

[light mauve]

No, traitor lord is big and strong

[stark ocean]

traitor lord was the mantis lords' brother so hes likely the same in position with them

just that tratior lord got infected and got super strong

[light mauve]

Yeah he is stronger still

[stark ocean]

we dont know how strong he was before infection

wait this is hk lore

[silk dirge]

i feel like unn would probably not be a hb if she was in silksong

[stark ocean]

unn was mentioned to be a higher being

by godseeker

just that she got really weak after pk

[silk dirge]

yeah im saying tho she always felt like an odd higher being

like nyleth isnt a hb

[fervent sigil]

so flukemarm is hard to hornet?

[silk dirge]

i feel like she would be an old heart instead of hb if she was in silksong

[fervent sigil]

nvm i’m prolly wrong

[light mauve]

Why hard? Old hearts aren’t necessarily hard, look at literally any old heart in Silksong besides karmellita

[fervent sigil]

i looked back at what i said and i was stupid

[stark ocean]

karak army is pretty hard

[fervent sigil]

old hearts require some sort of power or feat

[robust wagon]

Traitor lord is still alive

[stark ocean]

well karmelita was still alive

u dont have to be dead to be an old heart

[robust wagon]

Yeah but she was frail as hell

[stark ocean]

if hornets gonna go inside traitor lord's mind she will only see the radiance

[stray fog]

Old hearts

Vespa
Sire of deepnest
A mantis lord