sk-lore

[timber pond]

But things will still always lean towards a masculine or feminine identity through its actions. Lest it be something that is not human.It is something that cannot be escaped.

[visual glacier]

It’s literally only called genderless after getting kings brand

[unique canopy]

Tamar of Georgia was not only King but was so good at it that she was called King of Kings by the time her reign was over

[sinful nimbus]

Allegory and the literal are blurred in Hollow Knight's universe that's the entire point of Mask Maker

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[visual glacier]

Yes it is

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[random harbor]

White Lady - General - Listening after acquiring the King's Brand

It faced the Gendered Child? She's a fierce foe, strong in mind and body, striking reflection of her mother, though the two were permitted little time together.
I never begrudged the Wyrm's dalliance as bargain. In fact, I feel some affection for the creature birthed.
If your paths were ever to align, I imagine you might gain yourself a powerful ally.

@glorkishjames used /npcs misc name: White Lady category: General dialogue: Listening after acquiring the King's Brand

[pale narwhal]

no, that masculinity is a social construct that exists in your head
we can just as easily ascribe feminine features
not to mention that some things considered masculine now were feminine 200 years ago

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is a gendered child yes

Doesn't really say anything about TK

[visual glacier]

Hornet is THE gendered child

[sinful nimbus]

That's her title yeah

[pale narwhal]

because she's the only one of all the PKs children with a gender

[sinful nimbus]

Sure wonder why they would bring up her unique nature as a gendered being right after getting the king's brand

[timber pond]

Im not saying thr feminine cannot be masculine or vice versa. Im saying that in some form, even if that form changes or the definition shifts, it will always be there.

[visual glacier]

To show that despite being king, tk is still genderless???

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they call it a gendered term then

[visual glacier]

Because it’s the authority that matters

[unique canopy]

Because "king" is a title, not always gendered itself

[timber pond]

What if it was queens brand

[lapis creek]

idk you tell us

[visual glacier]

Queen is inherently gendered

[lapis creek]

what would the knight start doing

[visual glacier]

Unlike king

[ancient sinew]

Why are the Mantis “Lords” female

[muted lantern]

the queen didn't create the brand lol

[sinful nimbus]

Lord isn't nearly as gendered as the term king

[lapis creek]

clearly it would lose all capacity for responsibility heroism and leadership

[timber pond]

Why is king not gendered but queen is????😂

[unique canopy]

Because that's how words were developed

[visual glacier]

Because king is a role and queen is the female word of that role

[sinful nimbus]

King is masculine and queen is feminine its not that hard to understand

[timber pond]

Yes I agree

[visual glacier]

Similar to how waiter isn’t gendered but waitress is

[sinful nimbus]

These are the same developers who deliberately avoided calling The Knight "prince", by the way

[unique canopy]

Yeah so if they specifically avoided calling the Knight any gendered terms then mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe just maybe that means their use of "king" in this setting and context also isn't gendered

[sinful nimbus]

but prince is?

Why are we assuming they used words in an inaccurate way

[visual glacier]

Prince is not inherently gendered

[sinful nimbus]

But TC removed it because it was gendered

[muted lantern]

besides, the brand marks the bearer as taking the role of a king it doesnt change their gender identity.

[sinful nimbus]

Would they not do the same for the related term king

[unique canopy]

Because in the context of the setting it's not gendered

Like the answer is right there

[lapis creek]

hollow knight fans cant read

[sinful nimbus]

Now why would that be the case

[lapis creek]

who could have seen this coming

[unique canopy]

Because they decided that's how they wanted their fictional setting to work

[sinful nimbus]

Why

Why are you assuming the words were changed in the setting for no reason

[unique canopy]

A creator wanting to create their setting a specific way is not "no reason"

[sinful nimbus]

OK but what's the reason

Why are you dancing around the question

[unique canopy]

Your questions are dancing around a point you don't want to admit

[sinful nimbus]

The point being?

[unique canopy]

The Knight is genderless, the use of "king" in the setting is supposed to represent the authority of the position without implying anything about gender

[sinful nimbus]

I'm just assuming words work the same way they do normally

You're the only one assuming stuff to debunk this theory which you have a strange vendetta against

[unique canopy]

Why do you assume real-life "English after being fucked for centuries by misogynistic nobles obsessed with being French" conventions have to apply to a fictional setting created in the 2010s?

Why does that have to be "normal"?

[sinful nimbus]

We generally assume words mean the things that they are agreed upon to mean

[muted lantern]

are we still on this

[sinful nimbus]

That's how language works

[unique canopy]

Why can't they go "hmm, there have been a whole bunch of examples of women being called kings so we'll use that as a non-gendered term in our setting"?

[narrow horizon]

what is happening 💀

[muted lantern]

what is the theory again? ive been in and out of this chat in between boss attempts

[timber pond]

Kings throughout history , have mainly referd to a masculine identity. There have been queens who have ruled without kings as well. One is not better than the other lol.

[narrow horizon]

the knight isn't a guy if that's what people are tryna say

😭

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight getting branded as king represents its transformation into a masculine icon willing to accept its emotional nature (Void Heart) instead of repressing it with toxic masculinity like The Hollow Knight did

[unique canopy]

I'm not ascribing value in the terms of which is "better," I'm simply pointing things out

[narrow horizon]

..

what?

so wait what is the theory??

[sinful nimbus]

That

[narrow horizon]

that's

really stupid

💀

[sinful nimbus]

That'd be pretty clumsy writing

[narrow horizon]

no offense

The King's Brand is titled as the King's Brand because it marks the owner as King, and us possessing it does not change it's name or purpose. It is described as marking the bearer as king, and anyone who bears it shall be titled the king of hallownest. Anyone, not just vessels, not just males, any being.

[sinful nimbus]

Anyone being able to claim it is made up

[muted lantern]

so.... transmasc knight?

[sinful nimbus]

In a sense

[narrow horizon]

Hornet could have taken mantle of the King's Brand but chose not to, because she knew it wasn't her role to play

[sinful nimbus]

She's the gendered child

[narrow horizon]

she guards it

[sinful nimbus]

She can't be king

Why do you think she's called that

[steep ridge]

what the fuck is this discussion

[narrow horizon]

because she's the only of the pale king's children to have a gender/sex

the vessels don't have a gender

[pale narwhal]

omfg
the knight cant have an emotional nature at all
or its replacement of the hollow knight wouldnt work

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it doesn't

[muted lantern]

well, that kinda goes against the whole point of the game as all the vessels not being hollow, and why the vessel plan failed.

[sinful nimbus]

"I have to have wings otherwise I couldn't jump off a skyscraper"

[timber pond]

The vessels having no emotion is a myth

[pale narwhal]

yea we've said that like 50 times but these two refuse to see reason

[sinful nimbus]

That's a deliberate detail they added

[unique canopy]

It has nothing to do with her being gendered, it has to do with her not being able to enter the Black Egg and enter THK's dreams to summon the void in order to destroy Radiance. King's Brand isn't a neat collectible memento in the game, it's what you need to enter the Abyss and claim the Voidheart which allows the void to be controlled.

[sinful nimbus]

Why is that if not to tie into the King's Brand

[narrow horizon]

??

[narrow horizon]

The vessels aren't pure, which is why they fail

our knight isn't pure either

[muted lantern]

well, we know they arent empty, that they all have wills, that doesnt neccesitate emotion, while i generally agree they have emotions, it could be argued the emotion aspect was the "idea instilled" by the pale king. but again i don't generally read it that way.

[narrow horizon]

they're all hollow, but none of them that we've seen have actually been pure

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they make their main character genderless and then apply gendered language onto them if not to make a point

[unique canopy]

It won't work, that's the point of it being the base "bad" ending and you needing to earn better ones

[ancient sinew]

The idea instilled isn’t the cause of THK’s impurity though HK fans just can’t read

[unique canopy]

Give evidence of the Knight being referred to with gendered language outside of "king" (which isn't gendered in this context anyway) at any point in the game after getting the King's Brand

[narrow horizon]

there is 0 gendered language other than "King," and nobody refers to the Knight as masculine before or after obtaining the King's Brand, only noting that it now has the title. King, as much as you're trying to force it, is NOT an exclusively male title.

[unique canopy]

Show the Knight being referred to as "he"

[pale narwhal]

either way, the knight is still genderless

[timber pond]

They all get ideas instilled. And none of them can hold the infection forever. The pale kings hope for them is a lie, because he went about achieving an "emotionless state " incorrectly

[sinful nimbus]

"Give evidence besides the evidence I chose to ignore for no reason"

Great argument dawg

King is a conventionally gendered title

[ancient sinew]

”incorrectly” or you know maybe it’s just not possible

[unique canopy]

So you have none, thanks for confirming

[narrow horizon]

Because King doesn't mean Guy, ESPECIALLY given this context

[sinful nimbus]

It does

What context changes the meaning of the word

[pale narwhal]

because the evidence in question is questionable at best

[sinful nimbus]

Its not

[muted lantern]

"I implore you, usurp the Vessel. Its supposed strength was ill-judged. It was tarnished by an idea instilled. But you. You are free of such blemishes. You could contain that thing inside." is the line im referring to, though i believe the white lady is incorrect here its still a line in the game that people read, i don't really fault them for taking it as truth.

[pale narwhal]

the fact that the individual its used on was never male

[sinful nimbus]

They deliberately went about removing references to TK as prince but not king for some reason???

[unique canopy]

"All apples are red, that's what being apples means." "Here are examples of apples being other colours like yellow and green." "No those are all red because I said so."

[sinful nimbus]

"TC just used a word incorrectly because uh I said so"

[timber pond]

One could argue that the player chracters state of forgetting everything and having no connections is the state, but that is disproven by him coming to care about hornet throughout the game. As proven by Godhome Nosk.

So yes I agree

[unique canopy]

They didn't call TK a prince because being prince of Hallownest meant precisely fuck all, having the King's Brand is what mattered because it gave access to the Abyss

[ancient sinew]

Historically speaking, the term King actually isn’t always gendered. Some countries have used it interchangeably for rulers of both genders. Most notably Queen Elizabeth I, while referred to as Queen, used the Rex title instead of its feminine counterpart. There are other examples throughout history.

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know how you can in good faith assert that king isn't gendered

[narrow horizon]

There have been female King's before, and many cultures use the term of King, or a term that is synonymous with it, for female rulers

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't the olden times the word isn't being used in an archaic context

[pale narwhal]

yea we've brought those up
they got ignored

[ancient sinew]

Because it isn’t always gendered irl lmao, and in the context of HK it’s clearly also used as a gender neutral term stop pretending this is completely unprecedented

[sinful nimbus]

Your historical examples aren't going to handwave away the gendered child dialogue haha

[ancient sinew]

TK obtains the King’s Brand because it’s the Brand of the Pale King stop being intentionally dense

[unique canopy]

The world has had female kings (not queens) as late as the 19th century, and you'd probably see more if it wasn't for a whole bunch of European countries deciding to be republics

[sinful nimbus]

Oh so we're stooping to insults now

[pale narwhal]

the gendered child dialogue contradicts you

[muted lantern]

I wonder if its more intended as the vessels not having emotions at first, but developing them as they interact with those of the kingdom. Not something im certain of, but Its certainly interesting.

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[ancient sinew]

Everyone pack it up

This is low effort bait not worth engaging with

[sinful nimbus]

Do we live in the 19th century

[pale narwhal]

im gonna get a fucking anneurism

[sinful nimbus]

Everything I disagree with is ragebait

[unique canopy]

Do we live in Hallownest?

[pale narwhal]

there is more likelyhood of hornet being void than of the knight being male

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest's setting is told to us through MODERN english

They could've chosen the word monarch but they didn't

[narrow horizon]

The King's Brand marks the bearer as King. It's the King's Brand. That makes the bearer King. Bearer. Not male. Nowhere in the description does it describe anything to do with the male sex or gender identity, and a title that is put upon a person will not change that.

[inner torrent]

HORNET IS VOID CANON

[pale narwhal]

barely, theres a lot of fanciful and archaic language

[ancient sinew]

Maybe if you had the mental faculties to actually respond to what anyone was saying in a coherent manner I’d have reason to be more charitable

[pale narwhal]

(also modern english emerged in the 1700s so)

[sinful nimbus]

King is usually used for men

[unique canopy]

Modern English dates back to between the late 14th and 17th centuries depending on your exact definition so sure, anything from then is valid

[ancient sinew]

If your level of understanding is quite literally being illiterate I have good reason not to engage lmao

[pale narwhal]

but not exclusively

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[unique canopy]

"Usually" or "always" (hint: it's not the second one)

[sinful nimbus]

We don't talk like people from back then

[inner torrent]

ok why are we discussing the gender oif the pale king?

[timber pond]

That litteraly is what happens

[steep ridge]

is this discussion just going in circles

[sinful nimbus]

Yet you still are. Does winning the internet argument matter that much to you?

[pale narwhal]

and the characters don't talk like us
they use fanciful and archaic language

[narrow horizon]

We attempted to give proper input and respect to you, one with a clearly much lower level and understanding, but you have forcibly denied any arguments or evidence we've provided.

[sinful nimbus]

No they don't

Also king in fancy contexts still refers to men

[inner torrent]

so i have a question, if hornet takes the king mark, would that make her transition to male?

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't give you the OK to break the rules

[sinful nimbus]

She can't take the mark because she's already gendered, TK isn't

[narrow horizon]

Usually, not exclusively. The item makes the bearer King. It is not specific to our character, and the name of the item itself is the King's Brand, regardless of who claims it.

[ancient sinew]

White Lady says THK’s SUPPOSED strength was ILL-JUDGED. It was NEVER pure that’s literally what she says, if the idea instilled were the cause of this she would have said THK’s actual strength was aptly judged, and WL is not “incorrect”

[inner torrent]

i don't see how the mark couldn't change her gender

[muted lantern]

not really explicitly, they could have always had them, its not really easy to tell with creatures that cant speak or emote. I personally think new information in silksong is what most implies this reading, as lore tablets refer to the void as ridding bugs of emotion.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah? Doesn't contradict what I said

[inner torrent]

if it can rearrange the ghost body to be male it can pretty much do the same to hornet

[unique canopy]

English is not a prescriptive language like French, there is no central government authority that decides what "real English" is

[muted lantern]

I more read it as it's strength was ill judged before it was actually put to the task of the sealing, as the idea was instilled past that point.

[ancient sinew]

But that’s not what she says

[sinful nimbus]

Also the only edge cases where king is used to refer to women/other genders is either A) in an archaic sense or B) to defy gender norms neither of which really make sense in this case

[inner torrent]

also, wouldn't this make the ghost trans

[ancient sinew]

And if that were the case its actual (not supposed) strength would still have been aptly judged at one point

[inner torrent]

that would be peak imo

[timber pond]

But rhe vessels are not exclusively void is the thing. They have pale shells infused, and can channel the things they absorb.

So i think they always had emotions

[sinful nimbus]

But words still hold meaning

[muted lantern]

I mean she follows up saying its strength being ill judged with a line about the idea instilled, it reads to me as her elaborating on why its strength was ill judged

[pale narwhal]

even then the french hate L'academie francaise. ive seen french people describe it as the place they send insufferable linguists to get them out of the way

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah no language is really prescriptive

That's just a dumb idea

[muted lantern]

this may be the final boss of bad faith arguments going on in the background.

[wooden seal]

@maiden relic Where’s the lore

You said you were gonna say about it

what’s the analysis of this topic

[unique canopy]

The meanings can be vastly different even for the same word even in countries that speak the same language

[narrow horizon]

The item is called the King's Brand no matter who bears it. If a female royalty were to claim it, would they suddenly be made a guy JUST because they're King? Would a genderless person capable of claiming it be forced to become male because of the title of King? Or would it follow the common naming convention of ACTUAL HISTORY that has REPEATEDLY shown women and non-male people can still be called King?

[sinful nimbus]

So

[muted lantern]

yeah but they seem to be just void inhabiting dead shells, their "deeper form" as the mask maker calls it is pure void.

[sinful nimbus]

If a female royalty were to claim it, would they suddenly be made a guy JUST because they're King?
Nope, because they can't claim it

Would a genderless person capable of claiming it be forced to become male because of the title of King?
Yup, that's the entire narrative reason behind the vessels being genderless

[narrow horizon]

the argument that our knight is suddenly forced to identify as male just because of it's ownership of the King's Brand, making it the King of a dying kingdom where it takes no action as a ruler is ridiculous

[narrow horizon]

There is 0 evidence to either of these points

[sinful nimbus]

The actual action it takes as a ruler is irrelevant

[pale narwhal]

also there are like
dozens of reasons hornet might not be able to take the kings brand, i really doubt "being a woman" is it

[sinful nimbus]

If you assume words don't mean what they mean, sure

[muted lantern]

whats the line where hornet says she cant claim the kings brand? i havent read it in a while

[narrow horizon]

Hornet says that it is a mark for "one like you," which implies Vessels, but doesn't suggest anything to do with gender, so that doesn't matter

[pale narwhal]

we are literally never told that women cant claim it, youre making that up for your own argument

[inner torrent]

i think it appears after the knight stands he is happy with his transition

[sinful nimbus]

Why is Hornet the gendered child then

And why does she say "One like you"

There's a clear contrast between the two

[pale narwhal]

or the offspring of two pale beings, or at the very least one who isnt half mortal as she is

[steep ridge]

erasing enby representation but wokely

[inner torrent]

is like the whole bi vs pan war

[unique canopy]

Is Hornet a vessel of void, yes or no?

[timber pond]

Sure, but the shell itself probably acts as a mask that's shaping thier "person". This is likely what allows them to develop in some capacity. And only The Knight and THK seem to poses any care or "will" because they were capable of experiencing the world. Its a catch 22 in my eyes, no vessel can become pure if they were taken out of the abyss and gain experince. Bassicaly , schordingers cat just becomes a cat when you take it out of the box/temporal state.

[sinful nimbus]

Why would only a void being be able to claim King's Brand

[unique canopy]

What does claiming the King's Brand allow the Knight to do?

[narrow horizon]

And secondly... what the fuck do you mean that's the narrative reason? Where is this stated? Where is this even hinted towards? Give us specific quotes from team cherry or ingame dialogue that explicitly hints towards or says that the narrative reason the vessels are genderless is specifically so they could become male by becoming King, WHICH IS NOT A ROLE THAT IS EXCLUSIVELY MALE, JUST PREDOMINATELY IS

[sinful nimbus]

Take responsibility for the kingdom

[unique canopy]

And?

[sinful nimbus]

And visit the abyss but you don't need to be void to do that

Unless you want to assume PK is void

[lapis creek]

fish used to be believable

[unique canopy]

And what does the Knight do in the Abyss?

[inner torrent]

PALE KING VOID CANON

[narrow horizon]

Because she had a gender and is the child of the pale king, and is the ONLY one of his children to have a gender. Which is why she is called the gendered one. BECAUSE SHE'S THE ONLY ONE

[sinful nimbus]

Many things none of which are very relevant

[sinful nimbus]

Now why would that be the case

Why would all vessels be genderless from a narrative standpoint

[muted lantern]

someone yesterday said moorwing was based on a fish

[inner torrent]

i mean, their corpses with very poor concept of social relationships and identity

[pale narwhal]

you're conveniently ignoring that the mentions of hornet as the gendered child in relation to the kingsbrand are only in relation to the fact that she's the one guarding it

not about her inability to claim it

[sinful nimbus]

So

[steep ridge]

actually speaking of fish what the fuck are kai supposed to be

[inner torrent]

how exactly is that going to develop a "gender"? and if talking about the sexual gender, they are literally CORPSES, covered or most likely replaced by void

[sinful nimbus]

The context is still relevant

[unique canopy]

They are relevant, answer the question

[narrow horizon]

Because the vessels are shells hollowed out by Void. They are constructs, made from Void. They lost their lives and identity as real children. They are hollow, empty. They don't need genders because they are empty husks full of Void.

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels are fully sapient

[narrow horizon]

Hornet is not a void creature

she is not hollow

[lapis creek]

we have to wonder if star is baiting us, who is baiting star

[sinful nimbus]

There is no reason a void creature would be incapable of developing a gender

[lapis creek]

if we are simply fish, is she too a fish? is there always a larger fish?

[pale narwhal]

why would they suddenly grow one because of a title

[sinful nimbus]

Its figurative

[lapis creek]

or is there a largest fish who acts on hunger alone

[narrow horizon]

They are creatures that were killed, hollowed out, and given sentience with Void. They HAD a gender when they were born, sure, but that life isn't them, because that life is gone and replaced by Void.

[pale narwhal]

and yet you keep insisting that the knight is a man now

[sinful nimbus]

TK needs to accept its status as a masculine icon to get King's Brand in the first place that's pretty standard thematics

Just like how it needs to accept its nature to get Void Heart

"Why would Void Heart make it accept its nature"

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels are sapient beings who interact with society

[inner torrent]

would that mean when it equips the glowing womb it becomes female to take onto it's mother icon?

[sinful nimbus]

They should be capable of forming a gender

[narrow horizon]

literally what are you talking about

[steep ridge]

is the knight ever gendered as masculine beyond the use of king

[narrow horizon]

"Accept it's status as a masculine icon to get King's Brand"

[sinful nimbus]

No but don't fall into the trap of ignoring it being called a king for no reason

[pale narwhal]

except they dont. they dont take on any inherently masculine traits or behaviours

[narrow horizon]

Nobody explicitly calls the Knight King

[sinful nimbus]

HK is a metaphor for toxic masculinity

THK literally tried repressing its emotions to be strong

TK doesn't do that thus its the foil for toxic masculinity (positive masculinity)

[steep ridge]

royal retainers

[sinful nimbus]

Its branded as king

[lapis creek]

where do you think white lady falls into this thematically

[narrow horizon]

Characters only remark on you possessing the king's brand, or that it has been claimed, but never call tk King

[pale narwhal]

its implied they think the knight is the actual Pale King no?

[visual glacier]

That’s not true

[narrow horizon]

The royal retainers are not talking to tk

[steep ridge]

not sure where that's implied

[lapis creek]

what does she represent

[visual glacier]

I heavily disagree with star here but that isn’t true

[sinful nimbus]

Women can encourage toxic masculinity too

I'm not sure about anything beyond that, its an interesting question

[lapis creek]

what about zote

[narrow horizon]

where does a living character specifically refer to TK as King, as specifically calling them King

[timber pond]

Look man, I just though THKs design was masculine. I don't actually care about all the other stuff lol.

[lapis creek]

actually thats too easy

[visual glacier]

Steel Soul Jinn

[steep ridge]

don't really see the masculinity in their design tbh 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Zote is another example of toxic masculinity like how the Slab and Bilewater are both representations of the cycles of abuse

[random harbor]

Jinn - General - Listening after acquiring King's Brand

...A King, the tiny It becomes. Jinn knows that mark, but cannot bow.
Jinn's masters are other... minds other... Not order. Not order, they seek.

@glorkishjames used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Listening after acquiring King's Brand

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you

[visual glacier]

I’m not trying to help your ragebait ok

[lapis creek]

based and say-whatever-the-fuck-you-want-about-transgender-people-to-justify-the-initial-vibes-you-picked-up-pilled

[narrow horizon]

In your headcanon*

[inner torrent]

i mean, is hard to differentiate gender in this game aswell, they are bugs

[steep ridge]

???

[timber pond]

What?

[inner torrent]

we haven't seen any bug with boobs yet

[sinful nimbus]

That's your decision

[inner torrent]

i think...

[steep ridge]

or as I like to call it: interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

Calling THK masculine based off of design is weird but I don't think its much to do with trans people

[steep ridge]

to blatantly dismiss the ideas being presented is a bit narrow-minded, I don't necessarily agree but it's an interesting thought

[narrow horizon]

Forgot about this, mb

[visual glacier]

This arguement is so stupid lol

[inner torrent]

i love how even when it calls it king, it never calls it "He" separating the gender from the king status

[narrow horizon]

I dismiss the ideas when they are blatantly incorrect or are making up the existence of ideas and themes represented. A large part of the argument hinges on King being an excusively male title, which it is not. Everything else is just hogwash about how things in the game are actually metaphors for things based personal own views, with little to no actual evidence or reasoning as for why it's the case.

[narrow horizon]

Specifically refers to TK as It in the same sentence as acknowledging it as becoming a king

[inner torrent]

exactly, it's so obvious the game is not trying to connect the king with the male in any way

[unique canopy]

Devil's advocate: Hornet is also referred to as "It" by a steel being

[pale narwhal]

the idea being presented is that being called king is enough to turn the knight from genderless into a man

[lapis creek]

what does dung defender tell us about toxic masculinity

[inner torrent]

don't play with dung ig

[unique canopy]

Being a simp means you're literally playing with poop

[muted lantern]

that too many men refuse to wipe their ass..

[timber pond]

Masculine, not a man but whatever. Idc

[inner torrent]

or do? considering he is pretty much one of the best ending of a royal knight

[pale narwhal]

gloombeast explicitly said the knight becomes a man

[unique canopy]

"Being a ruler can never be feminine"

[timber pond]

I didn't say that

[inner torrent]

pale king is not exactly much masculine tbh

[timber pond]

But like why couldnt it be called rulers brand then? Monarch exists as a word too

[narrow horizon]

💀

[lapis creek]

<@&283547423706447872> free money

[inner torrent]

but ig that's part of their toxic masculinity thin-

OMGCAN YOU STOP?

[muted lantern]

this shitshow of a debate wouldn't be complete without one of these scams

[inner torrent]

IT DOESNT EVEN HAVE A LINK WHATS EVEN THE POINT

[lapis creek]

bait

[muted lantern]

I think it has a website in the images or some shit

[steep ridge]

free money, that's the point

[muted lantern]

obviously its like an ip grab tho

[lapis creek]

perhaps a link could be blacklisted

[inner torrent]

good point

[unique canopy]

The void is actually a metaphor for idiot rich people putting their money in crypto until it destroys the environment and their souls

[lapis creek]

or otherwise difficult for bots to post

[inner torrent]

dumb bots, that's why ia sucks

[timber pond]

Like if we did some plotswap where GMS ruled hallownest and Pale king ruled pharloom, I think it would be called "Monarchs brand"😂

[spark imp]

damn I missed out

[muted lantern]

if second sentinel painted a picture would it be ai art?

[lapis creek]

what does zemer teach us about toxic masculinity

[muted lantern]

to avoid it entirely by dating women

[timber pond]

Masculine woman is badass?

[lapis creek]

but you both die in the end so whats the point

[inner torrent]

i'm not sure

[unique canopy]

It would be called Queen's Brand and only because GMS explicitly gendered herself, and there would be no argument about Hornet not being able to claim it because she's also a gendered woman

[inner torrent]

i'm surprised art is not a big thing in pharloom considering the amount of silk for pencils

[lapis creek]

well gms is always referred to as monarch not queen

[timber pond]

Pale king is male tho

[inner torrent]

pale king a dumb tho

[pale narwhal]

weirdly enough Zi reders to herself with gendered pronouns, but seems to refuse to do so for Hornet or Sula
perhaps its because the "steel children" as hornet calls them see organic creatures as lesser

[timber pond]

Pale being sre a dumb tho

[pale narwhal]

i want the next game to focus on the steel city just so we can get more lore on all of this

[inner torrent]

fuck those organics

[timber pond]

Yeah The hollow knight as the main chracter of a steel city game (many #sk-lore enthusiasts disagree because "it dumb" or "Muh cannon")

[sinful nimbus]

Why did they cut her king's brand dialogue

[timber pond]

I will not rest until I see em bashing the heads of giant bugs in Kratos style

[pale narwhal]

no the hollow knight wouldnt make any sense

[sinful nimbus]

oh i just read the dialogue its stupid nvm

[lapis creek]

what does midwife teach us about toxic masculinity

[sinful nimbus]

but it would fit right in with silksong actually

[pale narwhal]

a new player character
could be a former npc again

[sinful nimbus]

TC just lost their filter for dumb stuff as time went on

[timber pond]

Ok then how do you propose you resolve the clifhanger of embrace the void.

You cant say "you don't lol"

[sinful nimbus]

They shouldn't

Unironically

[lapis creek]

eat the grapes of granting reading comprehension

[timber pond]

They made an exception to the rule that's unsatisfactory for no reason then?

Thats dumb

[sinful nimbus]

It is yes

ETV is garbage writing that should've never happened

[pale narwhal]

if one of the godhome endings becomes canon it should be the delicate flower

[lapis creek]

it's tonally weird but like obviously shade lord just goes home right

[sinful nimbus]

Frankly its baffling they even decided to acknowledge its existence

[timber pond]

Nah its hype i don't care lol

[lapis creek]

what else would it do

[inner torrent]

while interesting, playing with the hollow knight is just hard

[lapis creek]

if anything silksong reinforces the idea that it would leave hallownest alone

[inner torrent]

altough, considering the size of the steel city characters, it might work

[pale narwhal]

this being said the blackbarrens and sandsea waste do also interest me a lot

[lapis creek]

the only good thing about the writing in sotv is that it makes etv a little bit less bad

[wise sand]

How would thk even fit in the map

[timber pond]

I don't disagree. All I want is for team chery to resolve the embrace the void clifhanger.

[narrow horizon]

what 💀

[timber pond]

And the flower ending dosent interfere

[pale narwhal]

sandsea could be a name for that endless desert between kingdoms

[lapis creek]

thk would be good material for a hollow knight sequel in 20 years if they made a higher being shrink it down to baby size or something

compression?

[sinful nimbus]

TC when they have to put an ending behind a random sidequest that circumvents the main climax of the game for no reason

[inner torrent]

silksong havent even been finished and you already want a sequel

[sinful nimbus]

you don't even need to kill the dreamers that's how disconnected it is 😭

[timber pond]

The shades also just go home in the normal ending

[pale narwhal]

i want anything that gives me lore

[lapis creek]

oh when you talk about the cliffhanger do you mean thk being alive

i didnt consider that idk that it's a cliffhanger

[timber pond]

Yes

[timber pond]

Why do they frame it that way with the buildup and music in the cutscene then

[sinful nimbus]

hype moments and aura

Its always hype moments and aura

[lapis creek]

idk but hornet would kick its ass so it doesnt really matter

[timber pond]

Untrue, litteraly every other ending ends off with a mellow conclusion Embrace the void does not

[narrow horizon]

If it concludes in an ending, contains multiple percentage points, leads to several achievements, and contains tons of game content.. i wouldn't say it's still a "sidequest"

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't adequately resolve the game nor do percentage points achievements or game content matter to the narrative

[timber pond]

We don't know if they fought or not after its unclear.

[lapis creek]

well yeah but if they didn't it's not a cliffhanger and if they did it's not a cliffhanger

[narrow horizon]

still not a sidequest 🤷‍♀️

[sinful nimbus]

Its always hype moments and aura after Hidden Dreams when TC miraculously became bad writers*

[lapis creek]

TRUE

[sinful nimbus]

Its not part of the main quest it wasn't even in the base game

[tepid mountain]

It’s 100% a side quest.

[timber pond]

Thus the point is, its a clifhanger because we don't know what happens and it actively posees that question.

[lapis creek]

theres not really much to resolve though

like maybe in a comic or something

[timber pond]

Im also including silksong endings. And im talking about the final thing you see in each ending dosent nesscarily set things up. They are soft conclusions not cascading questions.

Like what happens after twisted root? Everyone fucking dies.

What happens after sister's of the void? Idk hornet and lace leave

[sinful nimbus]

ETV doesn't pose interesting questions it just gives the detail that THK is alive like ok

[timber pond]

Embrace the void? Who the fuck knows because THK is a wild variable.

[timber pond]

Ok can you accurately predict what would happen after it?

[sinful nimbus]

kills itself hopefully

[timber pond]

We don't know it would because we don't know what its present state is

Do you see what I mean? Its meant to be a wild card ending that gets you wondering what the fuck is going to happen

Every other ending, even in silksong is obvious.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but its kinda an empty cliffhanger there's nothing interesting they can really do with it

[timber pond]

Well that remains to be seen

[frigid belfry]

nothing is particularly wrong with this

[inner torrent]

i actually think the hollow knight is like

okay, that's what lace 2 dialogue makes me think

[sinful nimbus]

It makes for an unemotional ending very thematically disconnected from the rest of the game

[frigid belfry]

godhome was an amazing dlc with an optional ending that did fit story wise

[inner torrent]

hornet talks about how the hollow knights life is life indeed, but why?

[timber pond]

The resolution for the knight happens in the 4th pantheon.

[sinful nimbus]

That's part of the point of the first game

[narrow horizon]

Red x emoji reaction of doom

[frigid belfry]

technically its the best ending for all the characters, hornet, thk, and the dreamers are alive, the knight/shade lord are somewhere else due to the flower

[narrow horizon]

you better not bring up that stupid fucking toxic masculinity shit again

[sinful nimbus]

what?

[timber pond]

Godhome lets the knight deny everything that pepole tried to expect of it

[frigid belfry]

godhome is one of the best dlcs ive ever seen personally

[sinful nimbus]

That's bad writing Hallownest should rest as is the point of the entire game

[frigid belfry]

it is resting though?

[timber pond]

Like he says fuck you to the pale king, and white lady and anyone else who would try to expect the outcomes that happen normaly

[sinful nimbus]

That is what DNM does but better

[timber pond]

No hornet expects you to kill the radiance after a point

[sinful nimbus]

DNM actually has you facing the failure of the Kingom's preservation before fighting Radiance

[sinful nimbus]

That's what it does in Godhome

[timber pond]

You cannot do godhome without seeing that either

[sinful nimbus]

Yes you can

[timber pond]

And in godhome you actually RECONCILE with your siblings

[sinful nimbus]

THK is not in Godhome

[frigid belfry]

canonically the knight probably did everything if we consider etv as an ending

the fact you can enter without dreamers is probably for game convenience

[sinful nimbus]

An uninfected prime version is with none of the emotional baggage

[frigid belfry]

amazing fight representative of a false dream and a main theme of the game

[timber pond]

You face his true burdens though in the view of pure vessel, which takes more effort.

[frigid belfry]

none of the vessels were truly hollow

[sinful nimbus]

How does it represent the burdens any better

[timber pond]

Pure vessel is the highest of THKS emotional bagage

[sinful nimbus]

You don't get to see how it failed

[timber pond]

All the ceremony and preparations burdening it as seen at the start of pure vessels fight

[sinful nimbus]

You see the harness in THK too you also get to see it... actually chained up

[frigid belfry]

the pure vessel isnt even pure, thats the narrative part, he shows emotion during p5, its an amazing representation of what thk was like during hn's prime

[sinful nimbus]

THK isn't pure either

The only difference between the two is that one is failed the other is not (yet)

[timber pond]

The knight probably knows this because the vessels all litteraly telepathically communicate in Pantheon 4 after you beat him

[frigid belfry]

how is that any "better" narratively

etv and dnm represent different ideals, and thats fine

i dont understand your claim of wanting one objective ending

[sinful nimbus]

You have to face the failure of the kingdom's stasis right after dismantling everything else surrounding it

[frigid belfry]

so all dlc endings are bad and invalid then?

[sinful nimbus]

In HK at least

[frigid belfry]

😔

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe drop the ending bit all of HK's DLCs are pretty lackluster in terms of writing except for Hidden Dreams

I'm not sure what you mean by "invalid" though

[timber pond]

You still do that in godhome. You litteraly have to dismantle every INCH of the past through beating every boss in the game AND getting voidheart

[sinful nimbus]

Most bosses have nothing to do with the actual past of Hallownest

[muted lantern]

https://youtube.com/shorts/KgihliIzrBo?si=IiDkHUfgQTyJoxeY

This is an interesting note

[sinful nimbus]

The bosses relevant to the stasis are all mandatory afaik

[timber pond]

If they died there in hallownests history its in hallownests past and is apart of the burden

[inner torrent]

most bosses in this game series are just randome dudes that are either two things

Angry
Hungry
Crazy
Artists

[narrow horizon]

Most, but practically all are victims of the kingdom's fall and descent into the state it currently lies in. Even if they aren't directly related to it's causes, they are still a part of Hallownest, it's history, and it's decline

[timber pond]

History is not only in its important parts

[sinful nimbus]

So

[timber pond]

So they are apart of the burden of hallownests history???

[sinful nimbus]

TK doesn't need to beat up every dead person to see the stasis has failed thats absurd filler content

[timber pond]

The point is he cares enough to go the extra mile and learn everything about everyone

[inner torrent]

i don't think it does it on purpose

[sinful nimbus]

Which isn't really relevant

[inner torrent]

it just wanderers around and fight whoever is aggresive

[narrow horizon]

So, even if the bosses aren't related to the past, these bosses are still a part of hallownest and it's failures, so you are facing through all of hallownest's history and failures and the results of the failures of the pale king out upon the common bug

[timber pond]

Every inch of hallownest is relevant to some part of its history and is affected by its fall

Thats what makes the game good is that attention to detail

[trail wagon]

Hey guys, here's a question. What if there's nobody around Hornet when she is playing the Elegy of the deep? Wouldn't she just descend into her own memories?

[sinful nimbus]

but...you don't need to see all of that for the ending to work its all meaningless filler to pad out the boss rush 🥴

[timber pond]

That might be something they add in the future

[unique canopy]

You can play the Elegy at any time and it only activates when there's a heart to resonate with

[lapis creek]

i dont even think this is necessarily a problem, grimm troupe tries to be a parallel to the main story

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's right, but wouldn't Hornet have a heart that could resonate with it?

[lapis creek]

it just fails because it frames breaking the cycle as the quick and easy path and nobody wants to do it because nkg is gas

[sinful nimbus]

"Sure in P5 you don't get to see the actual culmination of the fall of Hallownest but you do get to beat random animals and dudes up for 30 minutes that were affected by it"

[trail wagon]

She's arguably much more powerful than any of the heart creatures

[timber pond]

You need to kill every boss in the game to do it though. And the extra mile to care about every part of history IS the narritive point and let's the knight even defy hornets expectations.

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a problem yes but it does mean this point about ETV is kinda nonsense

[narrow horizon]

almost like it's the final challenge and a boss rush that combos the previous boss rushes. It's a challenge, not every detail needs to be put under a lore lens. P5 wouldn't be nearly as hard or as interesting if it was literally JUST the bosses you deem "important" and "not filler." it's supposed to be a boss rush of every boss in the game.

[sinful nimbus]

It has literally nothing to do with hornet's expectations but ok

[trail wagon]

It would be a great way to implement Pantheons

[unique canopy]

It wasn't just the creatures themselves, it was the collective power of their respective kingdoms that those creatures inherited. Hornet rejected inheriting the collective power of a kingdom, so it does not work for her

[timber pond]

Hornet expects you to kill radiance after a certain point. She dosnet expect you to find a diffrent way to do it.

[trail wagon]

Hmmm, it actually makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

OK so you're talking about gameplay and I'm talking about lore and only one of those things is relevant in #sk-lore

[trail wagon]

Are you guys talking about cannonical status of the endings?

[lapis creek]

no

[sinful nimbus]

No I'm just talking about why I dislike ETV

[timber pond]

Its ludonarative. The gameplay and lore compliment what is being acomplished

[sinful nimbus]

Both DNM and ETV are canon

[azure shoal]

Why does the citadel have a bunch of gauntlets

[narrow horizon]

No, she's talking about tc being bad writers and that etv is bad writing and a terrible ending

[trail wagon]

For now, yeah

[azure shoal]

i heard there was a lore reason

[timber pond]

Because it sgot alot of dudes

[unique canopy]

Incidentally it also requires you to actually engage with that deeper power in some way. You can't use the elegy on Khann until you take the conchcutter, you can't use the elegy on Karmelita or Green Prince until you actually talk to them first (and actually Karmelita has a second song she sings when you play the Elegy before talking to her that isn't her normal Needolin song!)

[trail wagon]

Oh, I remember this convo

[sinful nimbus]

GMS wants to kill you

[trail wagon]

Why is it terrible, in short?

[lapis creek]

it just has nothing to do with the plot

[narrow horizon]

You're talking about the implications of p5 not making sense by having you fight every single boss. You can't only look at lore, gameplay still matters.

[lapis creek]

it's tacked on

[sinful nimbus]

You can ignore the main quest and circumvent the main climax of the game by skipping THK

[trail wagon]

Yes, I've noticed that actually about Karmelita. That's interesting

[trail wagon]

Are you responding to me?

[timber pond]

You cant ignore getting voidheart

[unique canopy]

And in fact getting voidheart is required

[lapis creek]

im responding to why is etv bad yeah

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not talking about whether P5 is fun (HK bosses mostly aren't good so no) I'm talking about the narrative the two are irrelevant

[silk dirge]

the problem is most of the new godhome bosses are cool

like where would you put them otherwise

[lapis creek]

the dlcs gameplay wise have some of the best bosses in the game

and flying nosk

[trail wagon]

What do you mean skipping THK?

[silk dirge]

flying nosk is so funny

bro just took the fucking

[sinful nimbus]

Pantheon 5 only introduces 3 new bosses one of which is Winged Nosk the others are just rematches you could put in Hall of Gods

[silk dirge]

vengefly king crest

[trail wagon]

Ohhh you mean like without getting DNM?

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

[lapis creek]

or killing the dreamers

[silk dirge]

i mean all the other pantheon final bosses

all of them are pretty cool

[timber pond]

You have to do litteraly everything right up to finaly entering the black egg temple so you litteraly miss nothing

[trail wagon]

But is it in any way related to the lore, if you're tying it to gameplay progression?

[narrow horizon]

You can't only talk about the narrative and say the pantheon doesn't make sense to have all of the bosses, because the gameplay is based on fighting all the bosses. You can't force the narrative to fit your needs by changing the gameplay dramatically and then saying the gameplay doesn't matter.

[sinful nimbus]

Those are whatever from a lore standpoint

[silk dirge]

yeah but like their gameplay is cool so like how do you balance it

[lapis creek]

having all the bosses in the pantheon is neutral as a writing decision

[silk dirge]

maybe nailmasters couldve been a shakra or garmond type duel

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that lore should not take priority over gameplay doesn't change the fact that the lore DID SUFFER because it took a backseat to gameplay

[lapis creek]

it adds and subtracts basically nothing it just makes it exhausting to reach the ending

[trail wagon]

Honestly I agree there's a problem with how easy it is to get to Pantheons, but frankly, I would argue, that it's hightly unlikely that somebody would beat Pantheon 5 without beating the game first

[sinful nimbus]

Fighting filler bosses with late-game gear for like 20 minutes isn't particularly fun

[timber pond]

It really dosent though. You are taking on litteraly the entire past of hallownest INCLUDING THKS. Rather than you JUST taking on THKS in DNM.

[sinful nimbus]

Lategame HK hands you iframes on a silver platter every 3 seconds which doesn't help

[trail wagon]

I would also argue that Pantheon 5 it's the hardest thing in the game, at least imo

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah i agree with most of that but the issue for me is where do you fit in the good bosses

hall of gods is kinda silly on its own

[timber pond]

You need to get voidheart and beat every boss to do the pantheons though tf you mean its easy???

[silk dirge]

i guess some games do have stuff like that but idk

[sinful nimbus]

Hall of Gods would be a fine bonus challenge

That's really all it is anyways its not the meat of HK

[silk dirge]

i mean the question for me then becomes what do you do with all the time given to you by not making the rest of godmaster

work on silksong?

[sinful nimbus]

Making Silksong good

[silk dirge]

shrue

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I mean work on silksong sure

[lapis creek]

if this was the intent it's still weird to make you fight all of these things that again have nothing to do with why hallownest fell

it's a bad replacement for the thk fight

[timber pond]

They already started silksong as a DLC concept right alongside finishing godmaster. It wouldn't have changed anything .

[sinful nimbus]

Well Godmaster still took dev resources

[timber pond]

Inbetween 2017-2019 its scope was a dlc concept anyway

[sinful nimbus]

true true

[timber pond]

Because the plan was diffrent

[narrow horizon]

the history and story of hallownest is tied to every bug, including all of the bosses. it isn't tied to just the important bits and pieces and the characters directly involved, it's about ALL creatures across the entire kingdom, which they do by having us battle all of the bosses, who are all victims of the failures of the pale king

[sinful nimbus]

tc the type of mfs to make you fight the entire zombie apocalypse before you have to find out how patient zero started 😭

[silk dirge]

i could see godmasters becoming like funny side characters similar to the steel masters

what am i saying 😭

[trail wagon]

Well I mean you don't need to fight THK and Radiance

[silk dirge]

my brain is fried

[steep ridge]

not sure how fighting massive moss charger ties into the failures of the pale king

[lapis creek]

well yeah it's easy to just say everyone is relevant but that doesn't make it well written

[timber pond]

Yeah imo the only thing you can take in isolation in HK is Grim Troupe

[silk dirge]

i meant like have them play a similar role to the steel soul people

[trail wagon]

nah brocholius

[silk dirge]

where its a cool side thing

[sinful nimbus]

Grey Prince Zote has much to do with the failures of Hallownest aye

[trail wagon]

Pls no godseekers in Silksong

[frigid belfry]

even then they probably influenced the radiance in some way since the nightmare heart resided in the dream realm once

[timber pond]

But you do so in godhome anyway, and they even fulfill the same narrative purpose there

[trail wagon]

Honestly I will be pissed off if we get a literal godhome

[trail wagon]

well, kinda

I'm basically steelmanning the other person's argument

[lapis creek]

and hitting them with a sword doesnt mean facing the problems caused by the pale king if anything it's just doing something you've done before, but again

[silk dirge]

idk vengefly king doesnt seem relevant to the lore of hallownest

[trail wagon]

Which is that you can beat Pantheon 5 without beating the game frist

[timber pond]

We won't really godseeker would be dead either way

[narrow horizon]

Creatures of hallownest were all impacted by it. Every small bug, and since massive moss charger is a boss (an easy boss, but still a boss), it is included

[trail wagon]

How do we know?

Also, I just wanted to say, do you guys think we can say both ETV and DNM are both TRUE?

[silk dirge]

vgfocus is cool id rather tk turn into that in dnm than normal shade lord tbh

[lapis creek]

what does fighting every boss it's ever fought, in a row, do for the knight from a character perspective

[trail wagon]

Or just AS FAR AS WE KNOW RIGHT NOW?

[lapis creek]

what's meaningful about it

[eternal gazelle]

they're mutually exclusive

[timber pond]

You effectively beat the game in your own right if you do pantheon 5 and get the same beats from THK

[trail wagon]

Yes

[unique canopy]

Nah, godseeker mode takes place after EtV according to its own dialogue. She's just trapped in godhome

[eternal gazelle]

but yes there's nothing stopping either of them from being canon on their own

[frigid belfry]

combat experience to fight the sun

[lapis creek]

ok

[eternal gazelle]

(canon to silksong)

[steep ridge]

feels like they didn't have to make you fight everything if that was really the point they wanted to make

[trail wagon]

Yeah, honestly, I don't even know why I started arguing against what I said literally a minute ago i'm sorry 😭

[frigid belfry]

thats cool when was this said

[trail wagon]

Does godseeker mode take place at all?

[timber pond]

Thats werid as shit and dosent make sense to me but whatever. Shes like Simon from SOMA getting traped in the ARK😂

[lapis creek]

fighting everything isn't really the problem even if you only had to fight like 5 bosses it would still be ass because it circumvents the main story for no reason

[steep ridge]

if anything it weakens the idea, because you're getting tragic characters deeply affected by the infection thrown at you side-by-side with brooding mawlek and winged nosk

[timber pond]

Unless we get THK somewhere in silksong. Unlikely but possible.

[narrow horizon]

Fighting every single boss is for the gameplay, but that's just how they connect it to facing Hallownest's past. 90% of the bosses work under this idea, the rest are there because they need to be there to include every boss

[steep ridge]

the connection is flimsy tbh

like you're coming to a conclusion and working backwards to make it work

[lapis creek]

you fight all the bosses because they wanted a bossrush, not because someone thought it's a metaphor for the knight facing the kingdom's past

[timber pond]

There is a reason. To deny the expectations placed upon you by like anyone. Because you are soing something no one thought of or expected of you.

[trail wagon]

Yes, but what I'm saying is that there should be only one cannon ending, when both of them are mutually exclusive. The only sound option for both of them to be cannon is if we'll never hear anything about Godseekers again, which basically would leave their status unknown

[timber pond]

This is my same argument for THK

[trail wagon]

And in that case basically it's up to each individual to decide which one is cannon

[narrow horizon]

other people were the ones talking about p5 relating to the kingdom's past, they then said it didn't make sense to have all of the bosses, so i was making a connection that semi-works

[timber pond]

Its a catch 22 , you cant expound upon past ideas if something becomes definitively "oooo either can be cannon"

[trail wagon]

Yeah, if anything, I think ETV is a good ending, I'm not arguing against it whatsoever

[lapis creek]

if the knight ran into j robert oppenheimer in the junk pit and constructed the atomic bomb to kill the radiance you could make this exact same argument word for word

[narrow horizon]

All endings are canon, they just don't all lead to silksong

[trail wagon]

YES

[silk dirge]

PEAK

[trail wagon]

I mean

[silk dirge]

I NEED THIS

[narrow horizon]

but that'd be metal asf so yes.

[lapis creek]

it's a really easy way to pass off complete nonsense as good writing

[trail wagon]

Here's a fuller explanation

All endings show events that CAN happen

But only one shows what ACTUALLY happened in the story

[timber pond]

Yes and thats based😎. in all seriousness he still respects THK as seen in Pantheon 4, so no not litteraly

[trail wagon]

Like Silksong Cursed ending shows what WOULD happen if the parasite takes over Hornet and GMS, but it doesn't mean it DOES actually happen

That's my explanation

[narrow horizon]

it does happen

all of them happen

just separately

[trail wagon]

Wdym?

I mean like

If we say there's only one timeline which includes all games and all content

[narrow horizon]

i don't like talking about timelines n shit because media has shat all over that (fuck you marvel) but really that's what it is

[timber pond]

Ill agree with you when team chery expound upon that ending with a followup in 29 years

[narrow horizon]

all of the endings are canon, all of them happen, they just lead to different outcomes

sealed siblings is canon

it just doesn't lead to silksong

[trail wagon]

Act 3 already makes Cursed ending non-true

Act 3 cannot happen after it

[steep ridge]

no it doesn't

[eternal gazelle]

there's not really any reason to assume that this condition exists

[narrow horizon]

Cursed ending is canon, it just doesn't lead to act 3

[steep ridge]

act 3 and cursed ending are separate timelines or what have you

[trail wagon]

I mean that's pretty much what I said but in a big different way

[narrow horizon]

It leads to different outcomes that we don't see happen

[trail wagon]

I just don't like calling other endings "alternative timelines"

[timber pond]

Idk man that sounds like schrodingers hollow knight to me

[eternal gazelle]

unless explicitly stated by the text, there is no single canonical outcome

[trail wagon]

To me there's only one timeline with all content in order

[narrow horizon]

yes, but there isn't a definitive "sacred timeline" that happens

[steep ridge]

problem is the variance in content, especially in act 3

[narrow horizon]

that's not a thing

[timber pond]

Well if there's a game about THK, then would there be a canonical outcome?

[trail wagon]

But guuuuys, like seriously, you don't think THK and Cursed are THE true endings, right..?

[timber pond]

When pepole want cannon, they just want what happens in relation to another game

[eternal gazelle]

no, silksong follows certain HK endings but that doesn't decanonize the endings that it can't follow

[narrow horizon]

we can craft that between etv and sotv, but that doesn't make them the true storyline, it's just the progression we know the most about as outsiders

[trail wagon]

Why is it not a thing?

[steep ridge]

true ending is really just a term for clarity's sake

[eternal gazelle]

if they wanted to, team cherry could make a third game that can only follow the sealed siblings ending

[trail wagon]

I just disregard all other timelines and only look at the one including all content that can logically happen in order

[eternal gazelle]

it doesn't clarify anything if it's inaccurate, it's a term for speedrunning categories

[timber pond]

I know this. But im saying pepole don't care until there is actually enough things that follow up on each "Diffrent"outcome.

[narrow horizon]

All endings are canon, they just cause different events, so sealed siblings is canon to the HK "universe" but isn't canon to Silksong, because something else happens

[trail wagon]

So it would be DNM/ETV -> Act 3 -> SofV

[trail wagon]

Yes, that's what I'm saying

[narrow horizon]

that's the most progressed storyline yea

[trail wagon]

The term "alternative timeline" just drives me personally insane, I start imagining some multiverse type shi

[narrow horizon]

same here

[trail wagon]

And I really hate to think about that being the case

[narrow horizon]

it's just the accurate way of describing multiple possibilities of events that can all happen

[unique canopy]

Just wait until DLC says that Hornet using the Elegy was actually time travel and is what caused those kingdoms to fall to GMS in the first place god please no

[narrow horizon]

LOL

[icy sinew]

Noticed this while watching a friend stream..
Wonder if Widow was one of these Weavers?

[timber pond]

If we follow this logic, then a game about THK would be ETV->ACT 3-> SOTV

But they Could ALSO make a game that's DNM->ACT 3->SOTV about lace or some shit.

Guys, can you see how this would get really messy? 😭

[steep ridge]

it's explicitly stated she is

[icy sinew]

Oh shit

[steep ridge]

wait I misread mb

[narrow horizon]

hornet is a weaver lol

[unique canopy]

Widow is a Weaver but not one of the ones who left for Hallownest and then came back

[steep ridge]

widow is not one of the weavers that left for hallownest

[icy sinew]

Aight

[narrow horizon]

OH THAT SAYS WIDOW LMAO

it says departed hallownest, not departed for hallownest

[trail wagon]

Please no hell nooo 😭

[narrow horizon]

either way i don't think Widow is one of these weavers

[icy sinew]

Yeah its in the Weaver Den

[trail wagon]

Pls nooooo

[steep ridge]

well departing hallownest implies they were in hallownest at all, which widow wasn't

[icy sinew]

Yeah

[silk dirge]

hornet falls into a blackhole and manipulates everything in the past to lead to these exact events

[eternal gazelle]

widow shit talks hornet for being the child of one of the weavers who fled

[trail wagon]

I actually don't think they would btw. I've read some article quoting an iterview where TC said that if they ever make the third game you would be able to play and understand it without necessarily playing the first two, JUST LIKE Silksong, as they said

[icy sinew]

Idk, just the thought of knowing your family left their homeland behind, and wanting to return to it yourself, only to be met by being thrown in prison and killed by/for GMS

Like just. Damn..

[narrow horizon]

[trail wagon]

Also, even though I know it's purposefully made ambigious, don't you guys think ETV would make more sense, since at least it's the only ending where we get to see the Shade Lord?

[narrow horizon]

yea

[icy sinew]

Yeah one of the Godhome endings

[trail wagon]

I understand that it can theoretically happen in DNM either, it's just that... we don't get to see that..?

[timber pond]

Yeah this one? I knowhttps://www.gamesradar.com/games/platformer/team-cherry-hopes-if-there-were-ever-new-hollow-knight-games-after-silksong-they-could-just-exist-alongside-one-another-so-the-order-you-play-them-doesnt-matter/

[icy sinew]

So that means Hollow is out and about somewhere

[trail wagon]

yes

[steep ridge]

they'd likely never confirm it one way or the other

[trail wagon]

Also I feel like DNM shows the opposite, doesn't it? The shades just look up and then go down

[steep ridge]

yeah they go down into the void

[trail wagon]

There's nothing even remotely suggesting they all decided to connect into a giant void entity at some point lol

[steep ridge]

the void entity isn't really there

[icy sinew]

DNM or likely the Godhome ending, given we see Ghost as the Shade Lord

[eternal gazelle]

there's nothing in silksong that conclusively says they actually did that

[trail wagon]

There's nothing saying they DIDN'T, we just don't get as much information

[trail wagon]

OHHH PLS

OMG

[narrow horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-now-drop-on-the-deck-and-flop-like-a-fish-flop-like-a-fish-deck-fish-gif-13068421675792593642

[steep ridge]

it's there and it isn't

[trail wagon]

There's literally a sprite of their fangs

Pls, don't go down that road

[steep ridge]

where

[narrow horizon]

very important lore piece btw

[trail wagon]

There was a screenshot clearly showing that there are SL's fangs in SOTV

[steep ridge]

stop acting so condescending

[eternal gazelle]

it's a hallucination, it doesn't just disappear between camera cuts for no reason

[trail wagon]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to be mean, but I've heard a lot of people saying that SL wasn't even there and it really triggers me, I'm sorry if it sounded condescending

But the sprite is the same as in ETV

[eternal gazelle]

it isn't there

[narrow horizon]

gulp

[trail wagon]

There was a screenshot, I'll find it later

[eternal gazelle]

the shade lord and the army of siblings both appear in brief flashes and then in no other shots

[icy sinew]

I didnt get a screenshot of it, but it appears right here y'all

Flickers between Shade Lord and Ghost

[trail wagon]

Before that there's a hit sprite

[narrow horizon]

little ghost 🥰

[trail wagon]

Like white hit range sprite

[eternal gazelle]

yeah and that hit sprite belongs to the knight's shade

you are overthinking this

[edgy nebula]

isnt the army of siblings consistently there

[trail wagon]

No it doesn't

[icy sinew]

I was so happy to see them again dude

[trail wagon]

It looks exactly like the SL's hit

[eternal gazelle]

nope, you're getting them mixed up with the void tendrils

[eternal gazelle]

yes and why does this matter?

the shade lord and the knight are ostensibly the same character

but the knight isn't in the kaiju form in silksong's ending

[trail wagon]

Because it doesn't look like TK's sprite

[narrow horizon]

i want to imagine Hornet was giddy with joy to see TK but just didn't really show it cuz of the high stress situation and confusion

[trail wagon]

Yes, but it's a different form

It means SL was there

Contrary to what some people argue

[timber pond]

He might show up that way though, because the audio for the rending claws is the kaiju forms. He just then separates into his normal form.

[trail wagon]

TK doesn't have these curves

Because they don't have fangs

And there would only be one line

Again, because they don't have fingers

[trail wagon]

This is from SOTV

[narrow horizon]

Groveta is saying you do see SL, but it's a hallucination and not necessarily the actual form appearing

[icy sinew]

Honestly seeing that ETV seems to be the canon ending, she was probably a mix of relived and terrified

Your sibling that went missing as the Infection finally died, presumed dead somehow. And you see them at last, and they save you from what otherwise would be a horrible death

[eternal gazelle]

I think "the knight shows up in shade lord form but only acts offscreen before disintegrating for no reason" is more of a stretch than "the knight shows up and stays in the same form the whole time"

[narrow horizon]

not that you don't see the SL at all

[trail wagon]

I'm sorry, but I don't think saying "it's just a hallusination" is an argument

What proves it is?

[sinful nimbus]

The slashing animation is consistent with TK's tendrils

[eternal gazelle]

shade lord and the siblings are both visions experienced by hornet, showing either something that did happen or something that has the capacity to happen

[sinful nimbus]

Which are barbed

[eternal gazelle]

because it's impossible for her to have seen both

[steep ridge]

the fact that it only briefly flashes on screen

[eternal gazelle]

the siblings do not appear in embrace the void

and the shade lord does not appear in dream no more

[icy sinew]

Yeah we KNOW Ghost is physically there, they grab Hornet

[narrow horizon]

idk i'm not arguing it i was just explaining Groveta cuz you thought they were saying the SL shape doesn't appear at all

[trail wagon]

Well, yes

[timber pond]

But he uses the shade lords Claws to rend the tentacles. Mabye he isn't and you are right. But that motif of claws and power from the shade lord is still there, which is something only done IN ETV. In DNM he just slaps

[steep ridge]

no one's arguing against that

[sinful nimbus]

Why do you assume they are claws specifically

[icy sinew]

IDK, I dont know why they would be flickering between forms as a hallucination

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I'm not arguing only one of them is possible, I agree both can work, I'm just arguing that SL is there, regardless of which ending you think is cannon

[timber pond]

They do in the pantheons 4 cutscene and all merge into the void

[sinful nimbus]

Not really the first shade lord hallucination in the series

[trail wagon]

Basically what I'm arguing

[eternal gazelle]

A) Hornet wasn't there for that
B) They appear as vessels, not shades

[icy sinew]

The only way I could read it as such, is if its Hornet seeing Shade Lord and recognizing it as Ghost somehow

[eternal gazelle]

also please recall the order of the scenes shown in sister of the void

hornet sees the siblings, THEN the shade lord, then the knight sitting there by itself

she is not observing the process of the shade lord destabilizing, unless you want to argue that the knight goes in and out of shade lord mode TWICE in this cutscene

[timber pond]

They might as well be the same in that context of the vission.. we hear the claws from the shade lord in SOTV though.

Im not saying he's full kaiju form

[eternal gazelle]

there's no reason this can't be ascribed to the knight's shade in base form

[timber pond]

Im just saying that power is present and distinctly diffrent than what he can do in DNM

[eternal gazelle]

it wasn't used in DNM but team cherry hadn't made those assets when they made DNM

and that specific sprite and sound design is more instantly recognizable than the more generic tentacle slaps used in DNM

that's my assumption for why they chose to reuse it, anyway

[trail wagon]

True, but still

Again

I think ETV just shows us more

It would make more sense for it to happen imo compared to DMV

[narrow horizon]

and again all hk endings are canon 💔

[eternal gazelle]

it doesn't really show us anything more required to understand silksong

[trail wagon]

Dream MV?? 😭

[eternal gazelle]

the only important thing is that the knight has the void heart

[timber pond]

You COULD make the assumption he can do that stuff the whole time, but that's just weird

[narrow horizon]

LOL

[trail wagon]

😭😭😭

[trail wagon]

What did you say?

[sinful nimbus]

[eternal gazelle]

it's less weird than assuming the knight was in shade lord mode at the start of the cutscene and then hopped out before the camera could look at it

[narrow horizon]

dream more gore but starting with v

for dmv

[trail wagon]

Prolly

[eternal gazelle]

why would they frame the cutscene this way if the purpose was to explicitly show that it was the shade lord

[timber pond]

But again, that is something he could totally do in the context.

[visual glacier]

My guess is to keep the “canon” ending of hk ambiguous

[timber pond]

They could have used light slapping instead

[eternal gazelle]

yeah but it's a jackass way to communicate a story beat if true, so it probably isn't

[trail wagon]

So Hornet wouldn't be scared, pls it's done this way to make this moment more personal and emotional: THE knight faces Hornet

[narrow horizon]

COULD, would be weird tho, and i think Groveta's description if what's happening is a lot cooler and makes more sense

[trail wagon]

Shade Lord is like.. all vessels connected together, even though they're controlled by the Knight, as it seems

[narrow horizon]

given focus

[trail wagon]

Gore is no better 😭😭

[narrow horizon]

but it's not censored

and i think the v version is worse lol

[trail wagon]

I think one of the purposes is that we would have this convo rn ahahha

[unique canopy]

Shade Lord Groal

[narrow horizon]

💀💀

[trail wagon]

Depends imo, but let's not delve into that lol 😭😭😭

[narrow horizon]

🐰⏱️

[trail wagon]

I'm cooked cause i know what this is

[narrow horizon]

LMAO

[trail wagon]

That's the only time a sad flea was spotted as far as I'm aware

[narrow horizon]

world peace will be achieved when someone says smth in this channel that literally everyone agrees with

[trail wagon]

Sherma is HB

[narrow horizon]

there are sherma haters out there

[visual glacier]

Hollow Knight is a game

[narrow horizon]

no, it's an experience to play with connections

[muted lantern]

there are some who would disagree

[stray fog]

Yeah hes my homeboy

[trail wagon]

Whoo???!!

[narrow horizon]

i've witnessed them

[trail wagon]

😭

[narrow horizon]

the freaks

[trail wagon]

I would disagree

Actually

Hollow Knight is not a game

It's a game franchise and a fictional universe 🤓

[foggy fractal]

Hollow Knight is actually a character...

[charred nimbus]

I would say hollow knight is also a concept

🤓

[rigid vapor]

Real

[dry bridge]

Hollow knight is a misnomer because they were in fact not hollow

[narrow horizon]

"Hollow knight is a metaphor for toxic masculinity" -literally ONE person

[narrow horizon]

well they were hollow, they just weren't pure

[steep ridge]

hollow knight is a belief system

[unique canopy]

You could make a religion out of this

[narrow horizon]

no wait don't

(elite ball knowledge btw)

[unique canopy]

How bout I do anyway?

[timber pond]

The sun is a deadly lazzer

[edgy nebula]

the most underrated aurafarmer

[narrow horizon]

not anymore there's a blanket

[frosty beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-menacingly-spongebob-standing-there-gif-19452999

[edgy nebula]

<@&283547423706447872>

[wintry compass]

lmao I had a dream that the citadel was hiding a nation under a mountain that had same-sex marriage

[wise sand]

Some of yall just be sayin ANYTHING lowkey

[dusky bay]

Wait wait wait
Does the green prince have his own heart and his lovers heart???

Isn't the heart you get are his and his lover's?

Either that or the citadel are weird enough to shove a heart into a cogwork

[dusky dagger]

I have a theory: what if when we enter at the red memory hornet actually takes the last of live of the white woman(i dont remember her name sorry) since shes talking like she knows where we are and what is our objective she knows we are talking to her

And we took the flower from where her hearth is and strangely this flower doesnt break

[lucid bloom]

Slabflies make me insane actually imagine being born into your ancestors’ guilt because of a sin they apparently committed against a divine spiderpeople race who secretly aren’t even actually divine. And you just have to live in filth and literally be a slave working as a jailer as your only opportunity to ‘redeem’ yourself and ‘atone’ for the sin you DIDN’T EVEN PERSONALLY COMMIT…

[dusky dagger]

I personally think they deserved it i hate their atacks

[dusky dagger]

And pls dont come with hornet wouldn't do that she killed 4 kings then took their hearths (one was still alive when she took it) she is a psycopath

And her plan failed too

[stray fog]

"White woman" 🗣️🔥

[dusky dagger]

I didnt remember her nqme because i play the game in spanish

[stray fog]

Its ok I was just joking

[dusky dagger]

I know

[vague whale]

Frankly white lady being such a major character in the lore is just

[dusky dagger]

I think they should add more lore to the game that isnt hide in a path of pain 2.0 for a 0.5milisecond scene that changes all lore(yes im talking about the first game)

[lucid bloom]

I think the slabflies are often overlooked as being like gross and crude, when in reality they’re literally slaves. They’re victims of the citadel. Like full stop they are slaves. Everyone is so mean to them :(

[dusky dagger]

Yeah also that they're in control

Basically they are just born to serve and suffer

[twin dragon]

ive lwk never noticed

[twin dragon]

hornet is either RACIST as shit or she's very angry

[dusky dagger]

She is racist trust me she is a royalty girl man or girl whatever you are

[lucid bloom]

Exactly!! Like their lives are hell and for WHAT? Because some weavers were upset by them? So they damned their entire bloodline for all eternity to be slaves ?? 😭

[dusky dagger]

Also she says in the diary that she hated them with her life

[dusky dagger]

The weavers are bad and good i think the only good weaver is herrah

[lucid bloom]

I HATE weavers i HATE the citadel they ruin everything they touch

[dusky dagger]

They only though of power

And literally hated the only man who wanted to help them (pale king)

[lucid bloom]

Yep!

[dusky dagger]

Nah at this point all weavers is bad

[lucid bloom]

Weavers are a curse and a blight

[dusky dagger]

Hornet too

If we think it

She is literally a psycopath who just kill everything in her path

[lucid bloom]

Oh yeah hornet isn’t a good person. She begins her path to becoming a good person in like.. act 3

[dusky dagger]

Phsntom the kid in constantly pain oh hell yeah why not killed her in the most painful eay

Way*

Ooh but killing lace the one who has being trying to kill us since the start nah she fine

[lucid bloom]

I find it a bit ridiculous that fighting against pinstress results in hornet sparing her but if you fight green prince he just dies.

[dusky dagger]

Leaving pharloom in peace ✖️
Let the void destroy all✅️

[dusky dagger]

"No mind to think"

[lucid bloom]

I could yap about the injustices of the citadel for ever but like everyone knows they suck 😭

[dusky dagger]

Not even in that she killed 4 kings just to fix her mess and it didnt even fix anything

Fraudnet

[lusty token]

https://tenor.com/view/che-giftok-peace-underground-music-gif-12113777404628586687

How the conductors feel after enslaving and murdering thousands of bugs

[lucid bloom]

TRUE

[dusky dagger]

LOL

Hmm

I have another theory

[lucid bloom]

I love the slabflies
They could never make me hate the slabflies they’re just victims

[dusky dagger]

Why didnt the creators of the melodies stop all when they could do it like 50 years before ous

[hushed crater]

I personally think all lore should be behind 5 times harder paths of pain

[dusky dagger]

They were all part of it

[dusky dagger]

Honestly it would be fun

I did path of pain in 40 minutes at my tenth try

[lusty token]

Why the FUCK do I need to pogo on fifty balljillion bugs for Mr. Mushroom

[dusky dagger]

Someone is with me?

They were just part of all

[hushed crater]

They look too fat to move efficiently enough

[dusky dagger]

They just watched them die but when it turned bad now they were good

[dusky dagger]

Well thats true

[hushed crater]

They would just row to the citadel

[dusky dagger]

Also

Dont you think that prince history

Sound too false

Like he changes all his history every single time

First

He say that they killed their boyfriend

[lucid bloom]

It’s pretty consistent to me?

[dusky dagger]

But then verdania and his boyfriend died way long ago thsn the citadel existed???

Thats too rare

[hushed crater]

I think he was vague so he doesn't have to think about it too much at the start

[dusky dagger]

Maybe

But its rare that it completely changes out of nothing

[lucid bloom]

Where is it stated that verdania died before the citadel was established?

[dusky dagger]

When you found him in the cave

[lucid bloom]

He just says long ago. That doesn’t mean before the citadel. We literally don’t know how long the hauntings been going on, let alone when the citadel was established

[hushed crater]

They didn't the citadel betrayed them after one made his soul into the conductor dancers

[dusky dagger]

He says "this cave was collapsed long ago"

[dusky dagger]

I think its a translate error

Since in spanish

[lucid bloom]

Probably

[hushed crater]

The citadel also collapsed long ago

[dusky dagger]

Says it was before the citadel came

[hushed crater]

Maybe

[dusky dagger]

Also

I hate that stupid flying bug in verdania

[lucid bloom]

Fair

[dusky dagger]

He was harder thsn the prince

Btw karmelita difficult over galez

Glazdd

Glazed

It took me 2 tries

[hushed crater]

It took me more then 20

[dusky dagger]

That trick is her hands

She literally anounce her movements with the hands

[hushed crater]

Yea noticed it late

Fun boss tho

[dusky dagger]

Yup

And godly soundtrack

Oh my god is like hearing greenpath or nightmare king grimm again

Btw

In terms of lore

Pharloom aint gonna die

Since grimm is not in pharloom