sk-lore

[limpid summit]

“Dear wyrm” He doesn’t know you bro 💔

[trail wagon]

Yeah, and the bugs are there to keep it burning basically

[edgy nebula]

worm*

[hollow ingot]

The hive thing was great. It’s nice to officially confirm the “daughter of 3 mothers” theory.

[limpid summit]

“Yeah me and PK the best higher beings”

[trail wagon]

doesn't he call him a "worm"?

To mock him

[vestal swan]

Either TK is connected to all the void and knows hornet needs help (why didn't it just control the void and stop the void haunting)
(Doesn't show up until after the flower is used for no reason)
Or TK doesn't know hornet needs help and isn't connected to the void
(They show up anyway through unknown means that seemed to conflict with them not being connected or knowing anything about what's going on)

[limpid summit]

He says Hallownest has been fallowed by worm and root as a metaphor but also says dear Wyrm after his fight

[sinful nimbus]

What does that add to the lore

[unique canopy]

Grimm has a monopoly on the colour red, nobody is allowed to have red besides Grimm

[limpid summit]

That midwife is useless

[edgy nebula]

fuuuh he does say dear wyrm, nevermind

[limpid summit]

Genuinely so many groupies in the HK verse

Leeching off popular people

[hollow ingot]

It confirms a question people have been asking for fucking years?

[timber pond]

Mabye the Flower was interfering with them knowing where hornet was lol

[limpid summit]

TC said it was cut no one cared 💔

[sinful nimbus]

TC removing all Deepnest lore and giving it to the weavers and uhmmm the freaking hive?????

[trail wagon]

Well, there's a lot of void and flower lore we're missing, pretty much all of their properties are unknown haha

[trail wagon]

We don't even know what the flower does

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

[vestal swan]

It was retconed and added nothing to the story besides a retcon, bad narrator dialogue and hivesteel???

[trail wagon]

So it doesn't necessarily contradic itself, we just don't know enough to make sense of all of its aspects

[edgy nebula]

only new deepnest lore are the garpids

[sinful nimbus]

Is the implication that Vespa named Hornet

[limpid summit]

I lowkey think I’ve seen more people asking about the king of Deepnest and the trilobite shrine than the three queens but like

[quick geyser]

The connection is….?

[limpid summit]

Bravo Vince

[unique canopy]

Establishes in hard canon that Hornet's actual training was with a neutral third party not related to either the Weavers or the Pale Court, which emphasizes Hornet suppressing both halves of her heritage to find a third path that works for others.

[limpid summit]

Red memory is in the nightmare realm

[vestal swan]

Because three queens didn't fit with the logic of the first game and it was basically retconned out already

[sinful nimbus]

Yap

[vestal swan]

No it's just a mess

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's heritage was good

[edgy nebula]

so hornet's life is a damn nightmare

[trail wagon]

I think it's pretty clear they are connected to the void, otherwise they wouldn't have known what is going on with Hornet, but as somebody has already suggested in this channel, they probably can't control the void 24/7, so TK is not like THE void, they are the void HB, but not THE void themselves, they don't control it all all the time and it's not necessarily a part of them

[quick geyser]

It not that long 💔

[sinful nimbus]

Short yap is a thing

[hollow ingot]

I wasn’t really ever officially retconned out. Just implied it was.

[sinful nimbus]

Which makes this addition to the lore awkward at best

[trail wagon]

whoooo

[timber pond]

Yeah, TK is aquaman. Sure aquaman can control EVERYTHING in teh ocean, but he cant BE everywhere lol

[limpid summit]

Vespa sealed herself off and in her dialogue she distances herself further from anything Hallownest by blaming the pale beings (but not GMS lol) for TK’s nature

[sinful nimbus]

Vespa training her gives as much value to the lore as Oro training her would

As in not at all

[limpid summit]

Quirrel training her

[unique tangle]

i could see vespa training hornet maybe argued for but hivesteel is some bs

[limpid summit]

Then he forgets who she is

Would that genuinely not have been tuff

Imagine if hornet had to fight her old master in the comic

[trail wagon]

I don't know any Aquaman lore, so I can't really agree idk hahahaha

[vestal swan]

Hk hive queen "I'll have nothing to do with your bullshit" (slams door)
Silksong HQ : "OMG what's up bestie your mom is a bitch your dad is a bitch slay Queen"

[timber pond]

HE basicaly can just control all Lifeforms in the ocean

[unique canopy]

Disagree, it helps Hornet be a narrative stand-in for Hallownest as a whole instead of just what the Deepnest or Pale Court would want.

[trail wagon]

No. There's been an old concept TC introduced about Hornet being a daughter of THREE QUEENS. It's never been brought up until SS

[sinful nimbus]

who cares about cut content

[trail wagon]

Nobody knew if it's actually the case

[trail wagon]

Cut content? What are you talking about?

[limpid summit]

Further elements of deepnest past

[sinful nimbus]

"It was cut previously so it must be a valuable addition to the lore"

[limpid summit]

Wait I forgot he said this lmao???

[blissful harbor]

fuck u apple i was gonna say tht

[trail wagon]

They say a lot of things, but not all of them are eventually implemented. They just proved it does

[coral wren]

I cant find any other lietmotifs

[sinful nimbus]

It wasn't in HK because it was incompatible with HK therefore it was cut content

[timber pond]

He didnt rreally say it was cut he said "still may apply"

[trail wagon]

Btw

Dies Irae

[vestal swan]

You see the second half of this comment where he says he's going to confirm things about the honored caste and then they throw it in the trash

[unique canopy]

Interesting that the actual canon had her both trained and raised by the Hive, only talking to White Lady after that.

[trail wagon]

dies WHO???

[hollow ingot]

And so your solution to fixing the quote on quote “lackluster inclusion” of Vespa, is to add Grimm to the red memory sequence. Someone Hornet has never met before, and has no connection too 😭

[limpid summit]

He’s going to confirm that they were steel or AC or something in the sharpe dlc

[sinful nimbus]

That was a meme

[limpid summit]

I don’t even know anymore

[sinful nimbus]

The real solution is to cut out that part of red memory entirely its bad for pacing and adds little to the lore

[trail wagon]

What's the problem with the Red Memory lore connection?

[coral wren]

everywhere I go its all dies irea
I cant find any other lietmotifs

[vestal swan]

They killed Herras steel husband so PK could get away with messing with void

[unique canopy]

"It adds nothing to the lore except for all these things it adds to the narrative of both games, those don't count because I said so."

[trail wagon]

steel husband?

[hollow ingot]

Vespas inclusion was apparently stupid, and shouldn’t have been added.

[unique tangle]

retcons in the hive for no reason and removes all importance of deepnest

[hollow ingot]

According to tis lady

[trail wagon]

I mean I literally cried

It was so emotional and cool

The WP soundtrack omg

[limpid summit]

Red memory should have had:
Midwife next to Herrah
No Vespa
Nightmare vines
Dryya standing alongside WL

[vestal swan]

A theory about who her dead husband is, but it's mostly a joke, but still very possible

[blissful harbor]

chat what if PK was killed by steel peeps with dream powers
and that’s why he was erased so completely
they fucking compressed him or whatever bs they do

[trail wagon]

Why the hell is that?

[quick geyser]

Ts so fire

[vestal swan]

I've been saying this for ages, Sharpe killed him

[sinful nimbus]

WL ain't tuff either

[limpid summit]

I don’t like this but I appreciate the sharpe upscale

[trail wagon]

There was supposed to be a boss fight with her btw

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we going with White Lady instead of the Late Sire c'mon dawg

[hollow ingot]

How does it retcon anything from the Hive, or ruin Deepnests importance? This is a genuine question, I’m confused how you got here.

[sinful nimbus]

Midwife would be cool

[limpid summit]

When would hornet have ever met or thought about Late Sire

Are we calling him that

[coral wren]

also lost lace is actually hornet's theme

it has her leitmotif in it

[blissful harbor]

only reason it wasn’t added i feel is cause they knew ppl would have a skill issue on that part and it would ruining the pacing of red memory

[trail wagon]

They should re-write the lore to be tuff? What are you onto 😭 🥀

[vestal swan]

Pk messes with void:
Steel assassin who was supposed to be in the Kingdom at the time when the king who messed with void died:

[coral wren]

i cant find any of lace's motif in lost lace

[sinful nimbus]

Blah blah blah shut up

It would be cool

[limpid summit]

Vespa’s boss fight should have been a scripted encounter that could end in a quick loss like the wardenfly

[limpid summit]

Fiiiiine

[trail wagon]

yeah, that's why they cut it

[sinful nimbus]

Seeing as Silk "I remain a daughter of Hallownest" Song only aims to deliver hype moments and aura instead of good writing, yes

[trail wagon]

It will likely be in a DLC

[limpid summit]

Ok

[coral wren]

no thanks

[trail wagon]

Btw

[sinful nimbus]

OK Midwife it is

[limpid summit]

They SHOULD rewrite the lore to be tuff

[quick geyser]

Starpengu figured out that she doesn’t need to come back with a compelled argument. She can just dismiss it because why bother

[unique tangle]

hive suddenly has a role in hornet's upbringing despite no connection mentioned before and despite the hive being isolationist
and deepnest not having any impact in Hornet's upbringing deemphasizes its significance despite what midwife says

[sinful nimbus]

What else am I supposed to say to someone who doesn't find Old Sire to be tuff

[blissful harbor]

i mean it’s wrong to say deepnest had no influence on her

[vestal swan]

Also Hive steel is incredibly bullshit because now they are the only ones in the kingdom known for actually forging their own steel, but there's steel all over the kingdom, and no forges

[trail wagon]

In RM there was an important detail. Herrah's face is blurred, and it has her dream mask. Herrah also says "will you remember your mother before the mask" something like that, which suggests Hornet doesn't remember her without this mask

[trail wagon]

It's important narratively

[sinful nimbus]

Yes the Herrah sequence tuff af and its genuinely interesting

[trail wagon]

Because it's cool

[coral wren]

I wish there was a music discussion channel
im a nerd who loves digging into leitmotifs

[unique tangle]

hive being known for steel meanwhile their only knight wields a chitin toothpick:

[trail wagon]

Me too

[limpid summit]

I can’t believe midwife calls the DEEPNEST SPIDERS the most intelligent species what did they even do

[vestal swan]

That just tells you that hornet is old as shit and can't remember her childhood flawlessly

[limpid summit]

Fact: Midwife learned to read the Dream Nail so people would think she was smart

[quick geyser]

If it tuff then it good writing 🔥

[sinful nimbus]

Hive is renowned for steel guys also they're excellent at training people in needle use because they obviously use silk right?

[trail wagon]

no, it's about her not remembering Herrah 😠

[vestal swan]

That's the same thing I just said

[unique canopy]

Never said the Hive was the only ones, just that theirs was strongest

[trail wagon]

However, I think we can discuss the lore implications of Clover Dancers/Karmelita OSTs, it's really interesting that they have a VERY similar melodies

[sinful nimbus]

They're not canon

[vestal swan]

Okay but with all the world building and shipping and trades and things having origins in the first game, all the metal working does not have one

[trail wagon]

Who said only the Hive is capable of that?

[coral wren]

yeah both their intros sound very simalar

[sinful nimbus]

The Trilobite statue was a magic device that erased Little Weavers and the Old Sire and his tribe from the entire timeline

[limpid summit]

What would it be I can’t rly think of anything but I’m interested to know what you think

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I'm wondering what it means

[trail wagon]

Idk to be honest ahahhaha

[vestal swan]

Out of both games only The Hive is known for metalworking in the first one, because of dialogue in the second one. This is the problem

[silk dirge]

what would midwife even tell hornet

[coral wren]

they're both dancers?

[silk dirge]

she should just fucking try to eat her in red memory

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[coral wren]

heres something random out of my ass maybe karmelita and the clover dancers went to the same dance school or something

[limpid summit]

What if the dead sire wasn’t even Herrah’s husband and was just some other Weaver with the honored caste being Weavers

[unique tangle]

deepnest yuri?

[trail wagon]

I don't think it's really a problem. What are they supposed to do now? Add some kind of materium to tell everything about other kingdoms and areas of Hallownest? Hive steel is relevant to the current events, because there is a clear connection

[sinful nimbus]

I'd uninstall both games delete all my messages in this server and weep

[trail wagon]

She would probably

[vestal swan]

It's really not though

Her weapon doesn't have to be made of hive steel

[trail wagon]

Maybe they were friends ahahaha

[sinful nimbus]

Hivesteel adds literally nothing to the lore

[trail wagon]

Well, it doesn't, but it makes sense. What else should she have?

[sinful nimbus]

If Hornet's needle was normal no one would care

[silk dirge]

weavers dont look like metal forging people either

[vestal swan]

It doesn't make sense though, that's what we've been saying repeatedly The Hive change makes absolutely no sense

[blissful harbor]

a weapon made and given by weavers

[trail wagon]

What are you even complaining about 😭 🥀

[silk dirge]

first sinner at the blacksmith shop

[vestal swan]

Their bases are entirely metal and they have robots?

[trail wagon]

I mean that would add even less to the lore tbh...

[blissful harbor]

yes the people who are notorious builders

[sinful nimbus]

OK but weavers don't have a unique metal type and aren't renowned for their metalwork

[trail wagon]

Why? She was trained in the Hive

[coral wren]

speaking of which i wanna get a replica needle

[blissful harbor]

it would reinforce her weaver ties

[sinful nimbus]

I mean heck the Weavers DO seem to have a special type of material idk why they didn't go with that it would make more sense

[vestal swan]

That is part of the pointless addition

[trail wagon]

They literally made automatons...

[coral wren]

sellsword arts did a few vids on it and they say it works really great as an actual weapon

[trail wagon]

It's not an addition... It's just a clarification of what was already in the lore

[vestal swan]

The first game said the opposite

This is a change and addition

[trail wagon]

Ari said that in the Reddit comment

[unique canopy]

It makes sense narratively in Silksong and retroactively makes sense narratively in Hollow Knight. It emphasizes Hornet as not being tied to either sides of her heritage. If she was just raised by the Weavers and the Pale Court, she'd be tied to one or the other.

[trail wagon]

Where?

[sinful nimbus]

Either its a change of the lore or the lore was poorly presented to us neither one is good

[mint stratus]

I assume they were easily able to forge with the magma of deepdocks and craftmetal deposits, WHICH HALLOWNEST DOES NOT HAVE

[vestal swan]

Ari said it might not still be true
And then the game made the hive isolationist
Therefore it was no longer true

[trail wagon]

Yes, well put

[trail wagon]

So they just proved it is

[vestal swan]

Also it's not like they haven't said things definitively that changed in the future anyway

[trail wagon]

The game came out before he said that, I believe

[trail wagon]

Yes they did, but it would be ridiculous to say "well, TC said Silksong is a sequel and it actually turned out to be a sequel, so they completely changed it"

[silk dirge]

i still cling to the idea red memory should be a lost verdania type area

with hornet collecting memory orbs

[vestal swan]

That's not at all what's being said because things were changed

[trail wagon]

Nothing was changed, they said that 6 years ago, and 6 years after they just showed it in the next game...

[silk dirge]

its a cool mechanic and in a world where verdania isnt a memory anymore it needs to be used somewhere

[timber pond]

I think All of the Old hearts should have been lost verdania, but thats just me.

[vestal swan]

"maybe"
Game says otherwise
It's no longer true
Sequel changes this

[trail wagon]

It would be fun

[limpid summit]

I think it should have been that but shorter

[mint stratus]

There’s always the hope of dlc!

[unique canopy]

The only "isolationist" part is that Vespa refused to take part in PK's HK+Dreamer plan.

[silk dirge]

yeah

[limpid summit]

The random running and platforming sections sort of broke the immersion cause there was only 3 actual scenes

[blissful harbor]

the hive actively sealed themselves away from hallownest

[silk dirge]

imagine you went around like a memory version of hallownest

[vestal swan]

They kill all their Invaders and build hives on them, and are completely isolationist, along with directly stating they want nothing to do with their idiot neighbors trying to fight another God

[silk dirge]

and then you unlocked like the herrah memory

[unique canopy]

We don't know when that was, given how much time passed.

[timber pond]

True though

[hollow ingot]

The hive wasn't always Isolated. The hive only sealed itself off from the rest of Hollownest after the infection started, and that's why the bees/enemies in that area aren't infected.

And how does Hornets mother telling her "do what you want" retcon ALL of the Deepnest area, and the lore surrounding it? She still grew up in Deepnest, was born there, and was raised until she was old enough to meet Vespa and start training with her on her own. And Deepnest didn't' just exist in the orignal game to imply "Oh yeah, Hornet grew up here and stuff" the area itself still has a lot of story to be told.

[sinful nimbus]

OK but A) This was probably a diplomatic deal between tribes B) Vespa doesn't mention this at all and C) if Hornet knew she was free from her heritage all this time it would cheapen the impact of her choosing to not do Weaver Queen and essentially means Red Memory is just Hornet remembering what she already knows

[vestal swan]

Nothing suggests they sealed off only during the infection

[unique tangle]

Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation.

[unique canopy]

Nothing suggests they sealed off before it

[vestal swan]

Why would they, it's not like that would save them

[unique tangle]

does not say that the hive only was sealed after the infection; rather implies that the hive has no connection to hallownest in general

[sinful nimbus]

No the Hive sealed itself off in the kingdom's infancy to stay isolated from Hallownest's rule as confirmed in the official artbook and the bees in the hive ARE infected

[vestal swan]

They aren't idiots, they were probably approached for the plan as a dreamer possibility so the nature of the enemy is known

Why were they outright refuse to help if they weren't approached and told about the problem in the first place

Closing the door is not going to keep the big glowing light bulb out

[unique canopy]

Post the entire context please, she says that specifically when talking to the Knight about PK+WL's plans that created it.

[trail wagon]

Just so we're clear on that. This comment was posted for the 2017 AMA, which was made on August 6 2017. The game released in February, so IT WAS SAID AFTER THE GAME WAS RELEASED

[trail wagon]

They didn't RE-WRITE anything

[vestal swan]

I don't think you get the point that that does not change anything because the game does not reflect the statement in it's final state

[silk dirge]

what memories would a red memory with lost verdania mechanics type deal have

[unique tangle]

i posted that line without the whole context because the other lines dont really matter

[sinful nimbus]

I mean perhaps they didn't rewrite anything

[unique tangle]

those are discussing the knights nature, this last line is just a general comment about the hive

[unique canopy]

Small thing. I know your kind.
If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek.
It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature.
Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation.
Context shows she's specifically talking about the void vessel plan.

[trail wagon]

Well, it doesn;t show it clearly, so they decided to add it to the next game what's so hard to understand 😭😭😭

[sinful nimbus]

Why can't we realize the lore was always bad

Its been bad forever they haven't produced anything good since White Defender

[vestal swan]

The difference is gaps versus contradictions
Time constraint versus bad writing

[unique tangle]

context does not show that lol

[mint stratus]

You are not media literate

[trail wagon]

Public server exectution scheduled 😭

[sinful nimbus]

TUFF

[foggy fractal]

erm... right in front of my second sentinel ???

[unique canopy]

"2+2 does not show 4"

[hollow ingot]

Since when did everything in the art book become cannon? I thought people hadn't been using it for awhile.

[trail wagon]

Art book?

[vestal swan]

Calling me media illiterate and insisting that the first game did not outright deny the hive having connections with other bugs

[trail wagon]

Is that the sketch book pictures?

[sinful nimbus]

Huh?

[vestal swan]

The lorebook is canon fact checked or something but it's from a not always reliable narrator because she's an outsider

She's making observations

[blissful harbor]

the wanderers journal? people have always taken that as a canon
TC worked on it too

[sinful nimbus]

The artbook has been used for years idr a time when it was considered non-canon but I only joined the community in 2023

[mint stratus]

You’re proving my point here dude

[unique tangle]

"2+2=4 is not related to the separate statement of "the sky is blue"

[blissful harbor]

baby

[unique tangle]

both work in isolation of each other

[sinful nimbus]

At least I got to see the golden age

Trellis and Netherlord....

[unique tangle]

not to mention combined with the guidebook statement about the hive walling itself off and the WJ journal entry of

In the kingdom’s infancy, as the king spread his influence across the land, there were those who chose to reject his rule and separate themselves from Hallownest’s society. The Hive is one such bastion. Even now, the bees maintain their isolation, unmarred by the spread of the infection.

[silk dirge]

this channel will argue about details instead of arguing about cool ways to fix silksong lore

[unique canopy]

The only thing the first game established is that the Hive did not participate in the void vessel plan, and that it was sealed at some point before the events of the game. There's a massive gulf between that and "they were completely isolationist about absolutely everything with no exceptions and would never allow even a single outsider to train with them"

[silk dirge]

i love society

[sinful nimbus]

Tammy cracked the code with First Sinner final boss

[hollow ingot]

There's an official book that follows the bug Ellina and her adventure throughout Hollownest as she documents everything she finds/discovers. I remember the book being ruled out as a creditable source a long time ago.

maybe I'm remembering wrong tho

[trail wagon]

I mean somebody suggests to cut the entire segment telling Hornet's backstory, and think it's a "cool way to fix silksong lore"

[mint stratus]

We must remember the journal writer was an in universe character whose an unreliable narrator with limited perspective

[unique tangle]

we must remember there was nothing to contradict her

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't presented as unreliable

[vestal swan]

Except the murdering outsiders part
Literally walling themself off
The wanderers journal that was just quoted
Sure

[unique tangle]

until the SS retcon

[trail wagon]

Oh that, I didn't know it was called an art book ahahah

[hollow ingot]

that's basically what it is.

[sinful nimbus]

Me when statements that only exist to give exposition on the lore are actually just lying to the reader for no reason

[unique tangle]

which makes it a retcon of elina's words and the HK guidebook and Vespa's statement

[trail wagon]

Yeah that too

[silk dirge]

what about the act 3 is dedicated to making the snare for gms and nyleth is keeping gms from fucking everything up in the meantime idea

[trail wagon]

also, I don't think it says they weren't affected by infection

[mint stratus]

They were a hivemind pre infection, from an outsiders view it probably looks like they’re fine

[sinful nimbus]

???

[trail wagon]

rather they didn't feel its effect because they already operate under the hivemind

[unique tangle]

? i never said otherwise

[sinful nimbus]

Hivemind has nothing to do with their isolation

[trail wagon]

ohh what were you arguing about? sorry 😅

[unique tangle]

the hive being isolationist

[trail wagon]

Is it somehow related to Hornet?

I mean the conversation started with Hornet/Hive connection

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really like it based purely on aesthetic merits I just think it feels weird for Nyleth to be so central

Could maybe work with the themes? idk

[mint stratus]

They are in game, but they’ve obviously interacted with their neighbors at some point
Including their mentorship of hornet which was an idea team cherry had way earlier on when designing the map of hollow knight

[vestal swan]

I really don't understand the mindset of pretending the first game didn't do something so you can ignore a retcon existing, just accept that they made a L decision with the story, there's like 10 of them

[sinful nimbus]

We don't really know how she was wronged by the Citadel but that could be fixed

[silk dirge]

i like the idea of a gms in prime form rematch type thing

[sinful nimbus]

Missing a zero 💔

[foggy fractal]

so 100 ?

[blissful harbor]

010

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[silk dirge]

what was tammos first sinner idea

i forgor

[mint stratus]

Honestly I think y’all just don’t like the game and should quit talking about what you obviously hate

[silk dirge]

i remember it cooked kinda hard

[unique tangle]

yeah exactly it was an early idea which lost backing when they actually made the hive ingame and created it to be isolationist

[trail wagon]

same ahhaha

[foggy fractal]

first sinner but the first is changed to final and sinner is changed to boss

[unique tangle]

it probably lost relevance when the hive was no longer in deepnest

but thats neither here nor there

[blissful harbor]

i think people naturally have criticisms for the things they like
apart of liking something is admitting it has flaws

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner is involved with constructing the snare but she hijacks it and starts messing things up as the Weaver Queen which would fit with the themes of the cycle of abuse and allat

[silk dirge]

interesting

[vestal swan]

Herra n hegmol name swap b like

[silk dirge]

that does cook

[unique canopy]

I think hyperreacting to the idea that one character, who was already established as being special in-universe, being an exception to a rule however many decades before the events of the game, is pointless.

[mint stratus]

I understand that but it feels like they are constantly dunking on what they simply think is dumb for the sake of it instead of having a proper discussion :/

[trail wagon]

I think a part of it is that some people had pre-existing assumptions they accepted as true, and now when it turns out they aren't it feels like the lore was re-written when it never meant something they originally thought it did

[silk dirge]

this could work with my idea of having some crazy interaction with lava and void

like the lava is fucking up the void

do something cool with that

[sinful nimbus]

I'm in too deep man I wanted to buy shovel knight man but man I ended up buying hk accidentally and I didn't really fw it but I liked the community and got really hyped for silksong man but like Silksong was even worse and now I just feel empty man

[trail wagon]

Void is oil

Objectively

[blissful harbor]

yes

[trail wagon]

who put that red thing

remove it immediately

[silk dirge]

wrong there is no american military presence in the abyss

[hollow ingot]

They're arguing that the Red Memory retcons everything known about the hive in the first game. Because according to lore, the Hive sealed themselves away from the general public, with Vespa mentioning she wanted nothing to do with the Pale King, or Hollownest's rule.

This makes a really big plot hole however, because if the Hive was sealed away 24/7, how did Hornet meet her, and train with her.

[trail wagon]

oh right sorry my bad

[blissful harbor]

the AC

[vestal swan]

I could probably make a list of things that were completely cut or changed from the beginning just to the first games release that's twice as long as the retcons y'all keep denying exist
We aren't just shitting on the game
We are talking about why certain things don't add up bc the lore conflicts

[sinful nimbus]

I even tried really liking HK before SS released but like man now it feels like those 79 days were all wasted

[vestal swan]

That plot hole is what we call a retcon

[blissful harbor]

anyways void being bug oil is actually interesting
being the result of dead shit,regrets and idk all the emo thoughts of the world

[vestal swan]

That's when the newer piece of media changes the old piece of media retroactively

[trail wagon]

I mean... is Vespa's attitude towards the PK related to the Infection?

[mint stratus]

But you don’t listen to the evidence we’re giving you??

[foggy fractal]

first sinner becomes the weaver queen ? this could be a fake screenshot idea... silksong if it was actually good type shit

[vestal swan]

Your evidence is the second game changes, it's not evidence

[unique canopy]

If anything, Vespa wanting nothing to do with the Pale Court's rule would make her want to be the one to train Hornet, to the extent that she gets to name her, to ensure Hornet isn't steadfastly loyal to the Court

[spark valve]

thief

[silk dirge]

have you seen the fucking

act 4 video

its so cursed

[vestal swan]

You cannot keep citing hornet training with Vespa as evidence of hornet training with vespa

[sinful nimbus]

I credited you 💔

[silk dirge]

ok grindle

[sinful nimbus]

I paid you in exposure

[spark valve]

snitchstar

[edgy nebula]

damniiit we were supposed to gatekeep act 4, now everyone will know how to get it

[trail wagon]

Maybe the Hive wasn’t so hostile toward the PK originally. They somehow managed to get Vespa to babysit Hornet, and then, after the Infection hit, they became more hostile (?)

Or were they hostile initially?

[silk dirge]

the funny thing about that video is how it switches from slightly believable things to complete shitposts several times

[mint stratus]

It’s fine they still don’t know how to unlock endless mode

[foggy fractal]

I skimmed through it with no audio and decided it wasn't worth my time because the fake screenshots in it weren't convincing enough

[unique tangle]

WJ says they isolated themselves from the start of Hallownest's creation

[vestal swan]

@trail wagon

[silk dirge]

its 4 minutes 💔

[spark valve]

that is called a good shitpost

[unique canopy]

The "retcon" doesn't even need Vespa to agree to babysit Hornet as a favour to PK, because it has Hornet train with them before meeting with the Court

[mint stratus]

Wdym it’s very real

[foggy fractal]

I can spend that 4 minutes on something better (like creating my own fakes)

[trail wagon]

Oh okay

[vestal swan]

Hornet being trained was never stated to be part of the deal she refused, they're just isolationist so her being accepted is outlandish with the established canon of the first game

[hollow ingot]

True ig. Was it ever implied that Hornet would have joined/made a connection with the Pale Court after her mom went to sleep tho? Because that would be the only leading factor I can think of if that's the real reason Vespa took her in.

[sinful nimbus]

But you don't understand we need to have the bees train the spider in a weapon specialized for silk usage

[vestal swan]

This line is from the second game so it does not support any of the ideas that are being presented in the conversation

It's part of the retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Seems like it indicates the opposite tbh

[mint stratus]

The white lady said in the red memory that all three had a desire for her to be strong enough to overcome what I see as a cycle higher beings tend to fall into

[spark valve]

it means it was rarely seen beyond the hive, very much ruling out large scale trade

[unique tangle]

using ideas introduced by the retcon to support the retcon is circular reasoning

[trail wagon]

But does it ever say there was no period of time when they became more friendly towards the PK?

[unique tangle]

it does not say such thing ever happened

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think that was about the retcon lol

[trail wagon]

Wouldn't Hornet training with Vespa suggest that it did?

[hollow ingot]

There's not really any evidence to support Hiveseel was used throughout Hollownest. Hornet's the only really real proof of it being used outside of the hive itself.

[unique tangle]

oh if theyre not arguing against the retcon then nvm

[unique canopy]

After Herrah went to sleep Hornet's only connections were to the dying Weavers and her father's court. Would make sense Vespa would be fine training her specifically for that reason, to avoid her being too loyal to her father in the absence of her mother.

[unique tangle]

thats the whole problem

[sinful nimbus]

why the HECK is there theoryslop in MY #retcon-discussion

[unique tangle]

first game says the hive was isolationist and had nothing to do with PK
second game now says they werent actually

[trail wagon]

Silksong doesn't say that?

[trail wagon]

Hornet training with Vespa doesn't necessarily mean they were friendly and let everybody in

[mint stratus]

Child of three queens is an established idea team cherry had even before launching hollow knight, they likely didn’t have time to impliment the idea the way they wanted due to budget and time constraints, not really a retcon in my eyes

[unique tangle]

vespa training hornet, the princess of hallownest is already a lot of involvement with hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway the 3Q stuff is technically compatible with the isolationist thing its just kinda counterintuitive and awkward

[unique tangle]

it wasnt an established idea, it was an idea they had

[sinful nimbus]

I'd feel comfortable calling it a retcon but really that doesn't say much and I think we should focus more on evaluating it on its narrative merit

Or lack thereof

[unique canopy]

Vespa training the "princess of Hallownest" would've been why Hornet did not fall in line with her dad's will. Even with the Hive being isolationist, training Hornet benefits them and their autonomy, doesn't detract from it.

[blissful harbor]

the needle always read to me as being weaver made

[unique tangle]

disregarding the second game it wouldve just been from the weavers

[blissful harbor]

i mean, it uses silk as a main tool in combat
who tf else would train her like that

[spark valve]

it's still a weaver weapon really the hive just probably made it to their specifications

[unique tangle]

the silk manipulating weapon wouldve been made by the silk manipulating bugs

[blissful harbor]

first sinner also uses needles, just very very different ones

[sinful nimbus]

I remember reading the hivesteel thing and thinking "Wow kinda weird addition but at least they aren't fully commiting to 3Q"

[unique canopy]

Like we're not talking about just giving Hornet a few beginner lessons and calling it a day. We're talking about Hornet spending enough time with the hive that Vespa is the one who gave her that name. That's a monumental impact on who Hornet is as a person and how her personal views would've developed. Not training her would've given that role to the Court, allowing them to shape her instead, potentially into a weapon that could threaten the Hive. There's a difference between isolationism and self-destructive stupidity.

[trail wagon]

Does the weapon have to be silk-related for a being using silk to use it?

[silk dirge]

so weavers are the cad team and hive is the machining team?

[lapis creek]

how can you read that and not think they're committing

[sinful nimbus]

Well needles are specialized for silk use that's the point of the needle's eye

[silk dirge]

what cad software did weavers use to make hornets needle

[blissful harbor]

needles are specifically made for silk

[silk dirge]

weavers dont seem like onshape people

[sinful nimbus]

I thought this was just a compromise like "Yeah they gave her a needle pretty cool"

[lapis creek]

blender

[vestal swan]

I saw it and immediately knew it was getting worse

[unique tangle]

i saw that and it was immediately over tbh

[sinful nimbus]

I got it spoiled later and thank god I almost got my hopes up 🙏

[silk dirge]

blender is not a cad software 😭

[hollow ingot]

Vespa's going against her own words tho. She never wanted anything to do with the Pale King in the first place. To the point were her entire tribe was blocked off from the rest of the Kingdom. So why would she agree to train Hornet after her mother was put to rest?

Given her attitude in the past, she didn't care/could not give a fuck about the rest of Hollownest. So why did she take such an interest in Hornet as apposed to literally anyone else?

[mint stratus]

I feel like hornets name only makes sense with the hive connection though

[lapis creek]

ok fine fucking solidworks is that what you want me to say

[silk dirge]

yes

who tf cads in blender

[spark valve]

silkidworks

[sinful nimbus]

In HK they kinda handwaved away the name by describing Hornet's needle as a stinger

[lapis creek]

i think the transforming chess pieces were made in blender

[sinful nimbus]

Which is whatever

[lapis creek]

i could be wrong though

[vestal swan]

Her name being hornet never really made sense, it's bees, but it's a bug game world with a bunch of nonsense names so it didn't really matter what her name's origin was

[unique canopy]

Just because you don't want anything to do with someone else doesn't mean they don't want anything to do with you, and if you don't have guarantees then they will force the issue whether you like it or not. And Vespa would not want a half-wyrm daughter of Herrah potentially being part of that against her.

[unique tangle]

to me if TC were dedicated enough to pull out completely random new lore for the hive just to justify where Hornet got her needle then there's no way they aren't going all the way with 3Q

[sinful nimbus]

OK well I had faith in them okay

[lapis creek]

i just think they shouldve saved the vespa reveal for red memory

[vestal swan]

I would have accepted

• hornet stole vespa's personal weapon off of her corpse

[lapis creek]

that wouldve been kinda sick

[sinful nimbus]

Sure the everbloom and arcane eggs got leaked sure they put void in the trailer but maybe that's just generic HK promotional material right?

[mint stratus]

Not to mention herrah could’ve easily made a trade considering what weavers are capable of offering

[lapis creek]

i maintain that the eggs couldve been nothing

and they sort of were

[sinful nimbus]

Its over dawg

Pack it up

AC adds nothing to Silksong lore they're only there because void is there

[blissful harbor]

eh i like the AC

them being fucking everywhere just like void is cool
literal basement bugs

[hollow ingot]

AC?

[sinful nimbus]

They were soooo much tuffer in HK

[blissful harbor]

ancient civilization

[blissful harbor]

i disagree
the rain world-ification of their relation with the void made them much better

[mint stratus]

Adds to the theory hornet has that no matter where you are, you go down deep enough there’s only void unending

[unique canopy]

That is a possibility since both tribes had a common interest in maintaining autonomy against the kingdom, but for the purpose of argument I'm talking even if Vespa was still purely isolationist against everyone.

[hollow ingot]

ah

[sinful nimbus]

The AC contrasted against Hallownest nicely

They don't really serve much of a purpose in SS

[foggy fractal]

hype moments and aura

[sinful nimbus]

The rain-worldification is maybe the most generic direction their story could've been taken

[mint stratus]

Oh I meant what herrah couldve offered in exchange for hornets training

[hollow ingot]

They don't need a purpose to be in SS. There purpose wasn't very clear in HK either. All we knew is that the AC existed way before the Pale Kings rule, and slowly faded out with time.

The only other real things they added, was their construction of stuff in the Abyss, and their connection to the void.

[unique tangle]

i honestly think they shouldnt have been in SS at all

those 2 lore tablets dont really add much to what we know and just read like filler

and i would preferred if we got some weaver lore tablets explaining what they were even doing with the void

[blissful harbor]

i mean they had a purpose in hallownest
fot the games themes of nothing lasting forever, thst even the eternal hallownest had civilizations before it and will have them after
also a comparison to PK’s similar over expansion with his kingdom

all to say HK had better themes ofc
i love silksong and motherhood whatever but cmon

[sinful nimbus]

Well more worldbuilding is always welcome but nothing about them was fleshed out and its a bit disappointing compared to what they added to HK

Also the more stuff you repeat from HK the smaller the world feels

Serene. Sad.

[foggy fractal]

hey we got sandsea waste, blackbarrens and city of steel 🔥 🔥 such tuff names

[unique canopy]

SK basically repeated the same thing. Pharloom had civilizations before the Citadel and will have them after. The attempts by the Citadel bugs at chasing immortality just led to the Haunting and everything falling apart.

[sinful nimbus]

See this is peak

[mint stratus]

They’re meant to be foils of eachother

[lapis creek]

it was cool in hollow knight how the theme of nothing lasting forever was there in both the stories of the characters and the greater story of the kingdom as a whole

[blissful harbor]

yes a lot of story beats are the same, but the presentation of themes is very different

[lapis creek]

meanwhile in silksong idk what pharloom overall has to do with whatever happened between lace and gms

[spark valve]

deepnest... wasn't that. at all.

are holding back animals

[unique canopy]

The presentation mostly amounts to we get to Pharloom when it's in the middle of its demise, as opposed to Hallownest being long ruined. So we're more personally seeing what's causing it firsthand, as opposed to every single thing being told to us after the fact.

[spark valve]

No bug has ever laid claim to this whole. Even the beasts knew their limits and bound their realm at Nest's edge.

[hollow ingot]

What else would you have wanted to see? There's not much TC could have added to the AC in Silksong. But confirming that the Abyss, and the AC weren't just a thing exclusive to HK, but are eternally etched into everywhere in the Hollow Knight universe (always being under your feet if you dig deep enough down), is at least something.

[sinful nimbus]

New stuff

This universe can have more than 5 things

[spark valve]

new stuff doesn't exist

[vestal swan]

I think AC coulda worked by having someone old enough have interacted with them. Esp since this game dragged the timeline in both directions

[lapis creek]

why would you choose to make the ac omnipresent if they couldnt even hold all of hallownest

[blissful harbor]

my point is that is not Silksongs main theme, and as such they tell it in different ways despite having similar beats
skong isn’t about how the kingdom isn’t going to last or how everything they do to try to stop is is a folly

[spark valve]

there aren't

[sinful nimbus]

Ancient Caste is Hallownest 🤓

PK downscale

[foggy fractal]

erm... bell eater is new...

unless you tell me someone in hk was eating bells...

[blissful harbor]

u got a pic

[lapis creek]

no bug has ever laid claim to this whole

[spark valve]

also hollow knight fans can't read 'bound their realm at Nest's edge'

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah AC has always been wonky with Mask Maker's dialogue

[silk dirge]

this would be the perfect time for me to mention how i had a silksong lore idea that involved making up like a bunch of ancient civilization lore

[sinful nimbus]

At least we now know they're high

[lapis creek]

please tell us

[hollow ingot]

I don't think it's stated anywhere that the AC was trying to "rule over" Hollownest in anywhere. More implied they just lived there, and did things

[unique tangle]

they dont even elaborate on the AC in silksong, all we got is that maybe a few AC bugs existed in SS and they spewed void wordslop and left behind an egg and its like ???? what does this even tell us really

[mint stratus]

I single handedly ate every bell in hallownest which is why there are none in game

[foggy fractal]

why would you do that dawg save some bells for us smh.

[unique tangle]

we learn next to nothing new from the AC's inclusion

[blissful harbor]

well

we learnt they fucking jumped into the sea

[unique tangle]

good for them

[sinful nimbus]

So tuff (???)

[silk dirge]

my idea was something along the lines of the ancient civilization was like destined to be forgotten or smth like that and so they tried to be remembered by conquering a fuck ton of areas and committing a mass suicide to the void there

and this would curse any civilization that takes up that land

[blissful harbor]

it’s interesting let me have this

[spark valve]

ok man sure it literally says they bounded their realm and you just didn't read it

but no they were a huge expansionist empire because trust me bro

[lapis creek]

to be bound and to bind are different things

[spark valve]

deepnest was not a threat to hive at any point

[sinful nimbus]

Does it

[unique canopy]

I think limiting SIlksong to "the main theme is motherhood" is being overly reductionist.

[mint stratus]

I do agree that the inclusion of the american military taking over pharloom for the eldritch oil was a bold move on team cherry’s part

[spark valve]

motherhood isn't even silksong's main theme

[lapis creek]

there actually used to be an ending confirming this but we unfortunately have to resort to auxiliary sources of lore such as the dictionary

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong doesn't have a main theme

Motherhood is the theme of Act 3

[blissful harbor]

i mean obviously it has other themes, that’s the main one
and how is motherhood not the main theme chat what

[sinful nimbus]

Its about cycles of abuse before that

Legend of Korra type writing 😭

[hollow ingot]

I adds on more to the idea the AC was very invested/curious with void as a concept

[blissful harbor]

literally first boss we meet is a tale of a mother fighting for kids
silk and lace

fucking hornet and herrah

like are we playing with our eyes shut

[lapis creek]

motherhood and cycles of abuse can be expressions of the same ideas i kind of get what they mightve been cooking

[spark valve]

there's a motif of motherhood but it's not like the centralizing thing for most of the game it's just that in act 3

in....
deepnest

[mint stratus]

Other themes include religious and economic exploitation by the powers that be :)

[spark valve]

ok whatever this is bad ragebait

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah

Act 3 just doesn't intertwine the two

[unique canopy]

Silksong is first and foremost Hornet's personal character story with everything else being supportive to that. The main theme is Hornet separating herself from the mistakes of both sides of her lineage. The main focus is on the Weavers because HK already establishes everything that went wrong with her dad, but "motherhood" is supportive to the theme of the child being more than their parents.

[sinful nimbus]

What mistakes of her lineage

[silk dirge]

to continue this i was also thinking like the lava in pharloom couldve taken up the abyss and interacted with void preventing them from doing this void sacrifice ritual meaning pharloom actually has a chance to survive

[silk dirge]

this would obviously be in a world where pharloom is more "alive"

[sinful nimbus]

Silksongs idea of not letting your ancestry define you is making it so your evil genes don't activate

[mint stratus]

The pale kings baby murder pit probably

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think it worked

[spark valve]

it works in sotv

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[lapis creek]

you should be far minded

[blissful harbor]

hornet is evil before then

even without weaver queen

[lapis creek]

put your brain in a jar far away from the keyboard

[spark valve]

well yeah but that's her evil weaver genes

[mint stratus]

I don’t understand what half of you are talking about anymore i’m gonna be fully honest

[vestal swan]

Hornet frames it like attempting to control void was the worst thing he ever did

That's her mention of her father's work

[spark valve]

I'm astral projecting right now what are you yapping about

[lapis creek]

jack vine wrote the journal entries

[sinful nimbus]

TC when they have to understand the themes of the game that they wrote

[hollow ingot]

Motherhood is a theme in Silksong fs. But to say it's the MAIN theme is a bit of a stretch. Silksong, just like with Hollow Knight. Is a game that merges many different themes into one big story. That eventually concludes with the story, speaking on all those themes as a whole. Instead of just trying to say something about 1 thing in particular.

[lapis creek]

flying nosk wrote the journal entries

[mint stratus]

Mender bug wrote one journal entry..

[sinful nimbus]

Is a game that merges many different themes into one big story
Shell theory,,,

[mint stratus]

They do have shells in the bug game

[lapis creek]

i would say hollow knight has one central theme that's expressed in many different ways

it would be inaccurate to say the theme of the game is that kingdoms always fall

because thats just one thing

[spark valve]

it's the 'all things must accept an end'

[olive quartz]

she could legitimately not know what was at the bottom of the abyss

[lapis creek]

yeah

huh

[silk dirge]

i mean hollow knight definitely has more themes but yeah thats the central one

no piece of media only has one central theme

[timber pond]

It would be really Funny if The Masters are a bunch of AC shades that fused into a group of a few bugs that control the world from the shadows 🔥

[sinful nimbus]

awesome themes like white colonialism

[silk dirge]

citadel british theory confirmed

[lapis creek]

yes

[vestal swan]

That's not the problem with that dialogue? His attempts to control void were pretty successful, it was his misunderstanding of the concepts and trying to seal away a God that ruined the kingdom

[mint stratus]

May I introduce you to the city of steel

[lapis creek]

verdania is ireland i keep saying this

[olive quartz]

....they are from australia

[sinful nimbus]

is that the name of their studio?

[mint stratus]

I mean attempting to harness the abyssal primal ichor into bug servants is pretty foolish ngl

[olive quartz]

...they're allowed to talk on things that aren't just about bugs in their bug game?

[unique tangle]

i need green prince speaking in a irish accent

[vestal swan]

Except it worked for everything except the God prison

[unique canopy]

To her it's the worst thing that he specifically did that other pale beings didn't do (to her knowledge), but she does mention her struggle against the pale being side of her that just wants control and domination.
Also since she was trained by Vespa who was against the Pale Court, it could be Vespa's teaching rubbing off on her.

[mint stratus]

yes but only Arachnids

[timber pond]

It probably worked because the blueprints for such a thing were recorded in Arcane Eggs of The acient Basin IMO.

[sinful nimbus]

HK is a garbage critique of white colonialism

[mint stratus]

May work but he is fully dead likely because of it

[sinful nimbus]

It feels like it wasn't even made to be a critique of colonialism

[olive quartz]

we don't know for how long—the wingmoulds were around long enough for hornet to remember them but the white palace is an idealized memory

[spark valve]

it wasn't

[mint stratus]

Bad take but alright

[sinful nimbus]

How is that a bad take

[vestal swan]

This reminds me I expected Garmonds dialogue to have a European accent to it like Zemers did

[olive quartz]

'european accent' which

lmfao

[vestal swan]

She grew up before everything fell apart, it's not like she never saw them be successful at their purpose

[sinful nimbus]

They made the white colonialists great people who handled everything diplomatically and sacrificed everything for everyone

[lapis creek]

legend this is exactly what i was gonna say

[olive quartz]

what? who??

[mint stratus]

You are forgetting the baby murder pit

[olive quartz]

the citadel? the Main Villain?

[vestal swan]

Scottish adjacent, I don't know I just kind of expected him to call her lass or something

[silk dirge]

were talking about hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

No PK and WL

The Citadel is good

[mint stratus]

The citadel is very bad wdym?? Bilewater and the underworks

[lapis creek]

ah yes the problem with white colonialists is how they treat their own children

[sinful nimbus]

That's A) moral because it was for the greater good and B) has nothing to do with colonialism

[unique canopy]

Ah yes the great diplomacy that had two factions hating them and using a third as their personal shields, that great diplomacy

[spark valve]

good... as a critique...

[sinful nimbus]

Good as in good social commentary sorry

[mint stratus]

Oh okay yeah 👍

[sinful nimbus]

What

[olive quartz]

the pale king is hardly described as a good guy, he just met the bare minimum of not enslaving and polluting everything

[spark valve]

deepnest didn't hate hallownest nor did hive really, only mantes are portrayed as rivals and they had a peace treaty

[sinful nimbus]

There is no faction that hates Hallownest nor was any faction used as a personal shield

[vestal swan]

Nah WL just sucks, she just moved in without contacting the landlord

[mint stratus]

I mean trying to hollow out your children no matter how good you think your reason is is not moral in my opinion

[silk dirge]

its a trolley problem situation

[sinful nimbus]

The alternative was worse

[lapis creek]

interesting axiom

[sinful nimbus]

Necessary evils are kinda a big thing

It sucks but you can hardly fault the dude and it was a big personal sacrifice for him

[spark valve]

the ends can in fact justify means

[sinful nimbus]

Y'know having to kill his literal children

[mint stratus]

I CAN VERY MUCH FAULT HIM like I have some empathy for the guy but it is not seen as a successful thing so it’s a needless sacrifice in the end for his desperate need for a undying kingdom

[olive quartz]

star if hollow knight was so morally abhorrent why did you play silksong

[unique tangle]

i mean they were unborn children so its basically an abortion with extra steps if you think about it

so its not that bad......

[olive quartz]

why did you pay team cherry 20 more dollars if they made "white colonizers are good: the game"

[lapis creek]

good question lets see how star wriggles her way out of this one

[frigid belfry]

silksong is racist

[sinful nimbus]

I was trying to buy shovel knight coming from the Just Shapes and Beats collab but I ended up buying HK instead and I didn't really like it but I really liked the community and Silksong looked like it could actually be great so I got really excited and started spending hundreds of hours in HK trying to love the franchise but really Silksong isn't that good either and hk is still mid and now I just feel like I've wasted all my time engaging with this franchise and this server

[mint stratus]

I think my brain is melting, I’m gonna take a break
Y’all have fun

[olive quartz]

then leave? it's clearly not doing you any good

[frigid belfry]

"i dont like the game, the game is bad|

complaining on a hk server is kind of counterintuitive, everyone here will more or less disagree with you

[unique canopy]

You can simply ignore things you don't like.
Nothing is forcing you.

[olive quartz]

why did you believe silksong would be uniquely good compared to hollow knight and not what it turned out to be, an evolution upon the core gameplay of hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

I would leave but I want to keep my join date its kinda a badge of respect I feel

Also I don't think they wanted to make a critique of colonialism in HK I think that was a retroactive addition Silksong tried forcing onto it

[spark valve]

obviously hk wasn't a critique of colonialism

[olive quartz]

retroactive addition? silksong hardly mentions hollow knight

[unique canopy]

I don't like fighting games. I'm not going to join a fighting game server and talk about how much a game sucks, because that's a pointless addition to my life and personal time.

You are allowed to spend time on things you enjoy. It won't be "cringe."

[unique tangle]

is it just me or did SS make PK and Hallownest look better and not worse

[sinful nimbus]

Well Hornet mentions how the Pale Beings, including her father, only allow devotion to themselves or the destruction of your society

She also says she's witnessed enough pain born of PK's dominion and questions if Hallownest had something like Underworks

[spark valve]

this isn't about deliberate actions by the pale beings though

[olive quartz]

ok but the pale king didn't do that. the mosskin were still allowed to worship unn. the mantis tribe and the hive were allowed to be apart from hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Well then the devotion aspect would be irrelevant and it wouldn't be the Pale Beings "allowing" anything

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah hence "retroactively"

[olive quartz]

...where?

[timber pond]

Well depends on how you look at it. If PK ACTUALLY just uplifted bugs who couldnt think in the first place, then he litteraly sacrificed everything for His Lego City model.

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker's dialogue and a journal entry of an underworks enemy respectively

[olive quartz]

are you saying silksong retconned entire areas of hollow knight because of one line that reads "pale king bad"

[sinful nimbus]

It is an inconsistency between the two games yes

[olive quartz]

the citadel destroys the areas that don't worship it. the coral kingdom is a dried out husk. verdania is literally gone

[unique tangle]

i think its more like GMS and the citadel wiped out all tribes, while PK formed trade agreements and was at least tolerant of them

and like while hallownest had a caste system it wasnt like the citadel

[limpid summit]

Did you ever get shovel knight

[sinful nimbus]

Yes its so much better

[frigid belfry]

ok

[olive quartz]

the pale king did not do this and if you think that one line of dialogue suggests team cherry changed their mind and the pale king actually did go sands of karak on greenpath... maybe that one line of dialogue is just inconsistent? or maybe you're reading it wrong?

[frigid belfry]

top 10 things that never happened

[unique canopy]

Well since we're going on a white colonialism theme, colonial Britain wasn't good just because they didn't cut off their slaves' childrens' body parts for not meeting harvesting quotas like Belgium did, they just weren't as bad

[sinful nimbus]

How am I reading that wrong

[olive quartz]

this does actually happen, it's one of the last lines in verdania

[foggy fractal]

have you played nine sols though

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not necessarily trying to say they changed Greenpath lore but they are framing PK in a wonky way

[limpid summit]

The interesting thing is like if we’re meant to regard Hallownest as a “slightly better” colonial power but still a colonial power it sort of doesn’t work

Because we’re like

[olive quartz]

Hornet: You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[limpid summit]

Not shown much wrong with Hallownest society at large

[sinful nimbus]

I played Nine Sols and its just okay imo

[limpid summit]

Maggot discrimination is pretty bad

[foggy fractal]

🥶 peak sols !

[limpid summit]

Otherwise like Hallownest seems pretty fine to live in

[blissful harbor]

if you’re not poor

[timber pond]

I mean i would say they are uniquely bad. Sure he got the other bugs to tolerate him, but i wouldn't say any of the tribes actually liked him being there. He's a dude who shows up ,uplifts your unthinking wildlife and makes it his toy box and gets into a fistfight with his neighbor. While GMS Just kind of, went up to all her neighbors with a gun and robbed thew like Aruthr Morgan. Like ,Yeah? I Guess PK is better? But like ,still shitty lol.

[frigid belfry]

"only allow devotion or destruction" is a bit of an exaggeration imo

[spark valve]

Being poor in Hallownest isn’t that bad the west side of cot wasn’t like a shithole

[sinful nimbus]

What is she exaggerating

[olive quartz]

i mean the city of tears has a literal rich and poor side separated by a locked gate

[unique tangle]

PK didnt get into a fistfight with radiance

that was entirely the moth's fault

[timber pond]

I know that was a joke lol

[limpid summit]

Even then like

They got by

[olive quartz]

hallownest was never meant to be a nice kingdom ruled by an immortal god-emperor but it managed to not be a nightmarish giga techno theocracy like the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Hyperbole/exaggerations are excessivized versions of true statements but there isn't a grain of truth to be found her

[limpid summit]

Menderbug is pretty happy doing what he does

[sinful nimbus]

It was a prosperous kingdom

[olive quartz]

menderbug isn't working for hallownest, the authorities are long dead

[olive quartz]

if you were one of those for whom it prospered

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone?

[limpid summit]

The clear class divide is a big thing

[olive quartz]

the city of tears has a literal rich and poor side separated by a locked gate

[sinful nimbus]

Except maggots ig

[spark valve]

The narrative framing of Hallownest in HK isn’t that it was a bad kingdom whatsoever

[limpid summit]

But still like they survived

[unique tangle]

i mean hey hallownest was successful enough to allow for entertainment and higher learning

[spark valve]

It wasn’t perfect but it wasn’t like bad

[timber pond]

Yeah sure but them "Getting by" , was like ,coping with the problems PK brought ti hallownest with his own uplifting lol

[sinful nimbus]

Wealth gaps are bad but the City of Tears isn't unpleasant or whatever

[olive quartz]

i mean yeah not uniquely so but i would argue hollow knight is saying "all kingdoms are bad"

[unique tangle]

which can allow occur in more developed civilizations

[frigid belfry]

that pb have only 2 paths, worship or destruction, which seems exaggerated, gms wont kill you for not worshipping her and more of has a desire of motherhood, pk never killed anyone, and just wished to be worshipped, he was also amicable with those who did not come under his rule, the only hb that resembles this trait is the radiance, and she only really wanted the moth tribe||

[limpid summit]

There is the point of Lurien the Watcher not swiveling his telescope to look at the rich dudes you could say there’s a metaphor there

Bro didn’t notice the crazy void being collecting everyone 💔

[olive quartz]

not so much that the pale king was an evil ruler but that "one person should not hold that much power"

[spark valve]

It’s not like the left half of the city is slums

[sinful nimbus]

Okay but this dichotomy has no basis in truth whatsoever

[frigid belfry]

hornet outright says it

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone in Hallownest died regardless of whether or not they worshipped the Pale King because that's not relevant

[olive quartz]

EVRRYONE DIES REGARDLESS

[sinful nimbus]

Heck worshipping PK is what caused the destruction in the first place

[sinful nimbus]

and I'm saying its wrong

[olive quartz]

come the fuck on. keep in mind shes saying this to a guy who got his entire kingdom destroyed by evil god's giga theocracy

[limpid summit]

“Yeah my place was pretty bad too dawg”

[spark valve]

In HK there’s no dichotomy and it has nothing to do with pale beings, destruction is an inevitability no matter what

[limpid summit]

Hornet you were fine

[unique canopy]

Assuming the Silk Heart dialogue is GMS, she does have a stated desire for complete dominance. Whether that leads to death if you don't, keep in mind Khann and Karmelita were both railing specifically against the "pale light," not the Weavers or the Citadel specifically.

[unique tangle]

the school even went to the lower class side surprisingly

[limpid summit]

The moss temple?

[olive quartz]

this is hornet's VERY NEXT LINE

[unique tangle]

soul sanctum

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I'd feel so comforted by a girl saying to me "Its okay my kind are all evil except for me <3" immediately after I told her to gtfo and let me grieve

[limpid summit]

The death cult???

[olive quartz]

Hornet: You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.
Hornet: Feel guilt at your absence, sir, but know the end was inexorable, the outcome set, whether you remained or not.
"verdania would be gone regardless of if you worshipped the pale being"

[unique tangle]

before it was a death cult

they are still scholars

[limpid summit]

I guess they were like middle class

[sinful nimbus]

That's a contradiction

[limpid summit]

Well wait

[unique tangle]

they had to have been some sort of normal research institute prior

[limpid summit]

Volt twisters are dressed in red

[frigid belfry]

yes im acknowledging this, im arguing that hornet was overly exaggerating the traits of her race "Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow." pb definitely desire worship but it isnt a pure dichotomy like hornet says

[olive quartz]

...what the fuck are you talking about? this line is immediately before the green prince starts a fight with you

[sinful nimbus]

Where's the destruction part come from

[spark valve]

Volt twisters are also in colo it’s probably not for prestige

[olive quartz]

he is not comforted

[limpid summit]

Honestly like considering the holiness of soul I would compare them to like a teched up Scientology

[olive quartz]

from the fact that all things fall eventually

[sinful nimbus]

"I like vanilla ice cream"
"Vanilla flavored ice cream or I'll kill you... These are the only fates I'll allow"

[olive quartz]

either the pale being destroys you itself, or you worship it and see everything you love degraded over time and/or destroyed in some great calamity

[sinful nimbus]

Its devotion OR destruction

IE if you don't devote yourself you will be destroyed

[olive quartz]

devotion LEADS TO DESTRUCTION IN THE END

[limpid summit]

Wait you’ve actually tweaked me out

[sinful nimbus]

So its not a dichotomy like Hornet claims it is

[limpid summit]

What are you both saying

[timber pond]

🍿

[olive quartz]

what? she's saying there are choices but the choices are false

[unique canopy]

Destruction of culture and sense of personal identity, even if you're still alive

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't though

[olive quartz]

"there are 2 choices. but either one you picked, verdania would be destroyed in the end"

[sinful nimbus]

Why did she add in the destruction bit then

[olive quartz]

because if you don't devote yourself the pale being will destroy you outright

[sinful nimbus]

Which isn't true

That's what I've been saying 🥴

[olive quartz]

the bugs of hallownest at the very least accepted the pale king's rule

if they didn't, uh, did you miss the enormous pile of corpses just past the mantis lords gate

[sinful nimbus]

Those who did not accept his rule (of which there are many tribes) were not destroyed by him

[timber pond]

Would be funny if pale king went on a rampage if they didn't lol

[frigid belfry]

it isnt a pure no negotiation dichotomy, pale beings do accept compromise and dont desire worship from all things, its their nature, but it doesnt define them, this is a minor theme in the game

[olive quartz]

yeah this one line is not a hill to die on

[limpid summit]

I’m still having a little trouble following but I don’t think the Shrumals would have “warily” accepted the will of the Wyrm if there was any manner of destruction involved cultural or otherwise

They were enlightened beings

[strange bronze]

It's either you choose to be devoted or be annihilated immediately. However, devotion would also lead to an inevitable end.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes PK ordered the mantes to destroy the tribe whom he had diplomatic relationships with and even harbored an heir to the Deepnest throne with

Its totally not because there's a zombie apocalypse going on or whatever

[limpid summit]

The beasts of Deepnest aren’t allied with the spider tribe anyway

[spark valve]

They also uh didn’t do that

[limpid summit]

Iirc there’s no devout corpses or anything there

[olive quartz]

what hornet is saying is ultimately that the green prince chose to remain in verdania (resisting) while his lover chose to give his body and soul to the citadel (devotion) and neither action let verdania survive

[sinful nimbus]

Pale Beings don't annihilate you immediately

[blissful harbor]

most of the ones outside are actual animals anyways

[spark valve]

It’s garpedes lmao

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is the only actually monstrous Pale Being like that

[olive quartz]

sure, so the pale king didn't instantly annihilate you while GMS did!

[unique tangle]

just dirtcarvers and garpedes yeah

[sinful nimbus]

I could've sworn there were devout corpses

[limpid summit]

I don’t think SS reframes HK through an anticolonialist view I think it just retreads those paths of Pale Being rulership to give Hornet a connection to the land without really thinking about how those themes were presented in HK

[unique tangle]

still impressive that the mantises could kill garpedes

[sinful nimbus]

So Hornet is speaking nonsense

[limpid summit]

So it’s not bad it’s just like

A bit less than good

I dunno

[timber pond]

How do we know though if they are the only 2 samples

[spark valve]

It’s almost like they’re different works with different commentaries about different things

[olive quartz]

consider that hornet is very old and probably remembers the pale king's rule as lasting like two seconds

[limpid summit]

Yeah until act 3

[spark valve]

Act 3 is also not saying the same shit as HK it’s like the opposite

[sinful nimbus]

So she's speaking confidently about something she doesn't know jack about?

[olive quartz]

as far as she is concerned he arrived in perfectly good hallownest, set up shop, and then everyone got sick and died because they worshipped him and now the kingdom is full of zombies

[sinful nimbus]

She's not presented as an unreliable narrator

[olive quartz]

this is like one of hornet's main character traits

[spark valve]

Well not opposite since it’s not Pharloom’s like natural end

[timber pond]

In theroy PK and WL Could be the exception and not the rule

[sinful nimbus]

Presumably not an intentional one 🥴

It makes Hornet quite the unlikeable character

[frigid belfry]

3 samples, 2 of them dont fit (gms arguably doesnt either, what she desires mostly is motherhood)

[olive quartz]

to you

[spark valve]

GMS is a tyrant

[frigid belfry]

hornet isnt omniscient nor perfect its fine for her to be wrong

[spark valve]

Unraveled silk heart dialogue is from her

[olive quartz]

i personally like that hornet has no clue what she's doing but her time as the princess-protector makes her constantly use a cool collected vocal affect

[sinful nimbus]

Characters who talk nonsense all the time and spout it to grieving widowers being unlikeable seems a frigid take

[unique canopy]

Hornet being a flawed an imperfect character is pretty obvious from the start of Silksong, when she's on her own personal revenge mission and repeatedly says things like "I'll only help you defend your little babies from certain horrible death by rabid monsters if there's something in it for me"

[sinful nimbus]

The narrative doesn't frame her as wrong in this case

[timber pond]

I really need a sample size of 5 ruling class pale beings to be sure

[limpid summit]

Well

You are right

[olive quartz]

star this is another case of trying to cover with what sounds like a legitimate criticism of the game's themes what is ultimately "the character didn't appeal to me"

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think TC genuinely wanted us to read the devotion or destruction dialogue and be like "Wow woof she has no idea what she's talking about wow"

[limpid summit]

In choral chambers she immediately says everything is the HB’s fault without knowing anything about the citadel

She likes to jump to conclusions

[unique tangle]

"mostly motherhood"

proceeds to wipe out 3 civilizations

[frigid belfry]

makes sense considering she has decent trauma from seeing her entire life fall apart

[sinful nimbus]

The character didn't appeal to me because she's an unlikeable douche

[olive quartz]

no but i do not think they wanted us to view it as Literally True

[frigid belfry]

mothers are violent what can i say

[unique canopy]

There are a lot of examples of characters saying things that they believe are true but are filtered through their own limited knowledge and/or personal views." Hornet included.

[olive quartz]

an unlikeable douche who canonically loves helping people for its own sake and also everything soft and fluffy

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah unlikeable douches can have good things about them

[olive quartz]

do you think hornet was likeable in hollow knight?

[sinful nimbus]

I can't really get attached to such a bumbling moron who not only is confidently incorrect 24/7 but also does genuinely evil stuff like destroying ecosystems for no reason or being racist

[olive quartz]

on two separate instances she tries to murder you, a baby

[sinful nimbus]

That was moral yes

[frigid belfry]

personally somewhat, her method of filtering vessels was flawed but i did like her lore and motives

[sinful nimbus]

She's ensuring a vessel doesn't come along and make things worse

[olive quartz]

murder baby = moral
destroy wasp nest = literally hitler

[strange bronze]

It's in her Weaver blood, that's her nature, I assume. However, she does admit that there is still a part of her that overcomes that beastly trait

[unique canopy]

"Pale King baby murder was moral" - Starpengu

[sinful nimbus]

uhmmm

[frigid belfry]

pale king failed the trolley problem

[olive quartz]

@sinful nimbus yes or no did you like hornet in hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

Indeed

She had a few cheesy lines but she was pretty cool

She was also smart and not racist

[olive quartz]

ok but now her cheesy lines ruin silksong?

[sinful nimbus]

These aren't cheesy they're blatantly incorrect

[frigid belfry]

tf does racist have to do with being likeable

[sinful nimbus]

Racists are unlikeable more news at 8

[frigid belfry]

ts came out of nowhere gng😭

[olive quartz]

a lot of racists are outwardly very likeable until you get to the racism part

[timber pond]

We all have an inate nature to overcome. I know alot of pepole don't like that idea, but its been true throughout history. And that's just how the game presents most of its tribes and bugs.

[sinful nimbus]

I've gotten to the racism part so

What's the point of this message

[olive quartz]

no, you haven't, you're just reading into shit to justify why you didn't like the game

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not reading into anything Hornet verbatim says she doesn't feel bad for the child slaves in the Slab

If that doesn't make you wince at first glance you're probably on autopilot

[silk dirge]

#sk-lore is a time loop that loops back to one discussion

[frigid belfry]

???

[timber pond]

I hate flies in general so

[olive quartz]

Starpengu. You are allowed to say "I did not like this game. It did not appeal to me." You do not have to couch this in 'criticism.' You do not have to go "Actually my dislike of Silksong is perfectly justified because Hornet is racist, the writing is bad, there's retcons, the themes are bad, it's pro colonialism, etc." Your dislike of Silksong does not need a justification.

[frigid belfry]

yo keep in mind 4 minutes ago we were talking bout verdania

[foggy fractal]

"All roads lead to Slabfly journal entries discussion"

[sinful nimbus]

I want to justify why I don't like something I view as low quality

[vestal swan]

The baby has been dead about as long as she's been alive, what's inside is an eldritch monster

[sinful nimbus]

Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits no sympathy from me.

[unique tangle]

at least imo i was mostly okay with her hating the flies since it was kinda played off as a joke since they also steal her stuff haha until she says she hopes to end their race entirely and its like uhhhh thats just genocide hornet thats literally just genocide

[sinful nimbus]

She acknowledges their "plight" which is slavery and says she doesn't feel bad about it

[frigid belfry]

i know lmao im just surprised with this discussion

[silk dirge]

the urge to use bug reports for an unintended purpose

[olive quartz]

the slabflies don't constitute a race so much as an order

[vestal swan]

This would be a valid use of a bug report, something that is so out of line it doesn't feel like it fits in the game

[olive quartz]

canonically whatever the first slabfly did was so heinous that all of its descendants must run the slab forever

[silk dirge]

i reported first sinner not acting like a memory boss in regards to tools do i get a free put random shit in bug reports

[silk dirge]

TRUE

[sinful nimbus]

That's not how morality works

[silk dirge]

they probably didnt do anything lol

considering the citadel

[vestal swan]

Also punishing an entire bloodline for what some bug did generations ago isn't any better

[sinful nimbus]

Slabflies are very analogous to races irl

But if you don't want to call them that its still an abhorrent thing to say genocide is never okay

Neither is slavery

[frigid belfry]

breaking news: discord learns bugs cant be perfectly moral

[unique tangle]

and such order within the prison is comprised of just slabflies, and slabflies are found nowhere else so

[vestal swan]

Especially with the stupid shit they punish people for, they could have stolen the wrong lunch from the break room fridge

[olive quartz]

hollow knight silksong, a game with talking bugs, is not trying to have a perfect depiction of morality. more at 8

[timber pond]

True!

[spark valve]

sure they're victims of systemic violence but they're gross so like they should just stop breeding and die out

[olive quartz]

tell me you have no clue how races work without telling me

[frigid belfry]

how dare my protagonist hate the people who kidnapped her irrationally, noo, let her be perfect!

[lapis creek]

oh my god we're still on this i left half an hour ago

[olive quartz]

and take glee in it no less

[spark valve]

the issue isn't having any animosity for the flies it's the specifically eugenics talking points

[sinful nimbus]

If you think not being racist or genocidal is at all a high bar and is being "perfect" idk what to say

[vestal swan]

I just came back from dinner lol if we're lucky it will go till tomorrow morning and break the record

[foggy fractal]

what'd you eat ?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah not portraying slaves as worthy of extermination is probably something that all games should have

[vestal swan]

Leftover pizza, which reminds me there was a very strange analogy about silk and cheese earlier

[sinful nimbus]

Should go without saying but oh well

[lapis creek]

do you mean like 121 more minutes or until sunrise

[vestal swan]

It almost made sense

[sinful nimbus]

You have to handle certain subjects with care

[frigid belfry]

if we really talk about it like this, then hornet is a mass murderer for killing haunted bugs

[spark valve]

not really no

[sinful nimbus]

In self defense yes

[vestal swan]

Well the record for longest dumb conversation on a loop has been like 12 hours so, until 10am tmrw

[lapis creek]

i wouldnt be thaaaaat specific about it, as i said she does belong in the hague for the actions she took

[spark valve]

there's a difference between hornet fighting shit in self defense and proclaiming that a sapient group of bugs should just stop breeding

[foggy fractal]

do we think courier's rasher would make good pizza toppings

[lapis creek]

maybe

[olive quartz]

star what are you trying to insinuate

[sinful nimbus]

Like killing haunted bugs for the greater good with the goal to stop the haunting isn't immoral

[vestal swan]

It's akin to beef jerky so I'm going to say no

[olive quartz]

that everyone who plays hollow knight silksong isna genocide supporter?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is poorly written

[spark valve]

judging by literally everything else that the gourmand gets it's probably repugnant

[sinful nimbus]

No I didn't say that at all

[unique canopy]

If it's an actual rasher then the way it's described (dripping with fat) makes me feel absolutely yes, as long as it doesn't spoil before you can cook it

[olive quartz]

okay and killing slabflies for the greater good of leaving the slab and stopping the haunting is perfectly moral

and if the slabflies are allowed to breed then they might come back and try to kidnap her again so ends justify the means yknow

[sinful nimbus]

I never said killing slabflies was wrong

[lapis creek]

yeah ok they might

[olive quartz]

you said destroying fucking wasp nests is evil forgive me for not being courteous

[timber pond]

If they are the scource and stockpile of runecages that actually makes sense lol

[sinful nimbus]

I'll give you 50 bucks if you can point me to a message where I said this

[lapis creek]

i would make an analogy here but i genuinely struggle to think of anything appropriate

[olive quartz]

^

[spark valve]

it's almost like applying the logic people use to defend hornet's statements about slabflies to anything real immediately leads to evil shit because it's uh evil

[sinful nimbus]

I wasn't talking about wood wasp hives because those aren't ecosystems

🥴

[olive quartz]

"destroying ecosystems for no reason" i believe the word ecosystem is only used in the entire game once, in the hunter's journal entry for um. wood wasp nests

[sinful nimbus]

I'm talking about Far Fields and she's also complicit in Wormways

[lapis creek]

luckily the word ecosystem means something and can be applied to contexts where it was not explicitly used

[olive quartz]

ah, i was wrong, but still

Destroying the hives will limit their presence in the wood. Useful to me now, as I pass along the branches. Dangerous in time for the wood's order. Even a small disruption can tip a fragile balance.

[sinful nimbus]

still what

[olive quartz]

this is hornet acknowledging her damage to an ecosystem

[sinful nimbus]

You made something up to get mad at me for no reason

Actually delusional

[spark valve]

a classic

[olive quartz]

according to you this is evil on the order of genocide

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[lapis creek]

star do i bet 200 doubloons that you didnt say that

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[spark valve]

hk fans can't read

this is golden

[sinful nimbus]

I distinctly remember saying that hunting wasps is as bad as exterminating sapient beings

[olive quartz]

@sinful nimbus gonna ignore that you owe me $50 if you have a response to this

[spark valve]

are we just making stuff up about star because if so she kicked my dog once so hard it flew to the moon

[olive quartz]

if we agree that ends justify the means then that means any means yes

[lapis creek]

i didnt know you had a dog

whats its name

[foggy fractal]

but do I bet my rosary bead ?

[spark valve]

I don't remember because star then kicked me in the head and I forgot 😔

[foggy fractal]

my condolences

[lapis creek]

can we analyze this real quick

[vestal swan]

50$? Damn that reminds me I should collect on all the silksong bets I made, I'd make a million dollars just on the people who thought it was a prequel

[foggy fractal]

can I have 50 bucks

[olive quartz]

^

[lapis creek]

dont the justified means depend on the importance of the end

[sinful nimbus]

But the suffering caused isn't worth it

[spark valve]

yes but that requires like kindergarten understanding of morality which isn't gonna happen here

ends justifying means obviously doesn't mean any end justifies any means

[olive quartz]

won't we end the suffering of all the prisoners in the slab?

[lapis creek]

but it's genocide

we don't do that here

[sinful nimbus]

Genocide is famous for limiting suffering yes

[olive quartz]

and again, if we don't kill all the slabflies then they might kidnap hornet again and the haunting won't be stopped, thus more suffering. hornet would arguably be complicit in the genocide of the haunted bugs, then. ends justify the means

[spark valve]

by this logic any group you can argue causes suffering should just be wiped out
gee I sure hope there's no correlation between, say, criminality and socioeconomic status
uh oh!

[sinful nimbus]

And surely killing prisoners is a better alternative to freeing them

[lapis creek]

powdered you're the moderator here can you give me an example of an analogy i can make here that won't get me banned

[sinful nimbus]

???

[spark valve]

they're all just gonna be like mid 20th century hard racism

so probably not

[olive quartz]

i don't believe ends justify the means to be clear, nor do i think you do (to be clear, Starpengu, i do not believe in my heart of hearts that you support genocide, because that is fucking stupid.) i am showing that you made a very hasty justification for why some things hornet does are totally moral, and are now reaping the consequences

[sinful nimbus]

So tuff

[olive quartz]

it would be more consistent to just say "hornet is on a mission and is not concerned with the morality of her actions"

[sinful nimbus]

What did I claim was "totally moral"

The vessel hunting?

[foggy fractal]

a light, porous rock formed by consolidation of volcanic ash. ?

[vestal swan]

Do you understand the difference between taking out the group that's doing bad stuff to stop them from doing bad stuff
And the comments where she says they should stop existing instead of you know putting the tiniest amount of effort into helping them?
She clearly cares about the ecosystems
She spares suicidal opponents
She goes out of her way for bubbling idiots

[sinful nimbus]

Obvious that's not comparable to the slabfly genocide idk what you're waffling bout

[lapis creek]

yeah this is probably true

[olive quartz]

^

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah why would that be immoral

[olive quartz]

Do you understand how to give a ban reason or do you need help using dyno

[vestal swan]

Would you like to be banned again?

[olive quartz]

Lmfao do it

[lapis creek]

i mean it could be in some contexts like would you kill 15 people for a memory locket

[vestal swan]

Arguing with me about a ban is not doing anything but trying to start shit

Tell me you don't have an argument without telling me you don't have an argument

[spark valve]

a lot of these cases hornet doesn't really know that's what she's getting into, she just goes somewhere and gets jumped then finds a locket after

[foggy fractal]

yes because I need that tool slot

[olive quartz]

i believe the shit started when you banned me for posting two bugs kissing and then got told off by the rest of the mod team

[lapis creek]

i guess it depends on how many people you think it will help in the end but yeah it's definitely possible to gratuitously kill pilgrims

[vestal swan]

Sure that's what happened

[olive quartz]

hornet committed genocide on the grand reeds or something

[lapis creek]

thats not genocide thats just mass murder

[olive quartz]

@sinful nimbus if you farmed grand reeds that makes you literally evil i hope you know

[vestal swan]

[sinful nimbus]

That's a video game mechanic its also not comparable to literal genocide because Hornet never exterminates all Grand Reeds

[spark valve]

hornet also doesn't have dialogue calling for the grand reeds to stop breeding

if she did that would also be bad actually

[vestal swan]

They've had it laid out as plain and simple for them as possible if they can't figure it out now there's no hope for them

[spark valve]

but people love to smoke and mirrors pretend she doesn't say that because

[lapis creek]

i mean she doesnt exterminate the slabflies either the genocide part is when she takes measures to stop them from reproducing with the explicit intent of wiping them out in whole or in part

[olive quartz]

Who's 'they' ?

[foggy fractal]

billions must farm grand reeds

[vestal swan]

You

[lapis creek]

i thought grand reeds were suboptimal

[vestal swan]

You clearly can't tell the differences that are being spelled out for you

[sinful nimbus]

Waiter! Waiter! More mandatory donation quests please!

[olive quartz]

Did you miss the enormous fucking 'she' next to my name

If you're trying to get my attention please refer to me properly

[foggy fractal]

ok more mandatory donation quests coming right up

[sinful nimbus]

Wanting to be referred to with a specific pronoun is a reasonable request