sk-lore

[foggy fractal]

yes I am a time wizard

[stable violet]

why is it hard to have a regular discussion

[fathom hill]

shipping policing is addictive to some

it's the implication of being part of fandom

[silk dirge]

andy weaver of time

[vestal swan]

Speaking of fishing, do you think the bay (if it ever comes to be in the game) will actually be a like a fishing deal

[cedar skiff]

holy genius

[silk dirge]

FISHING MINIGAME

[sinful nimbus]

Oh this is the nice Starpengu.... You don't want to see me when i'm REALLY angry

[fathom hill]

fishing minigame in ss sounds fun

[muted lantern]

What's irregular about this discussion

[lethal burrow]

Team Cherry is gonna add a fishing to their game. That's one more thing on the arbitrary checklist of Internet stuff.

[vestal swan]

I was not talking about a fishing minigame, hornet would just cheat by dynamite fishing

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't Bilehaven have boats full of maggots

[cedar skiff]

team cherry confirm hornet as a lesbian for no reason and you can turn my soul into a silkfly

[vestal swan]

I meant like the theme of the area

[fathom hill]

Dynamite fishing spoils the fish

[lethal burrow]

that's just called dynamite fishing they do it in Texas

[vestal swan]

They do it everywhere but it's like super fucking illegal

[fathom hill]

Again imagine

[vestal swan]

It's also not really good for fishing

[lethal burrow]

well, that's why they do it in Texas though cause the people there don't care

[foggy fractal]

we do already have fish like bugs from coral tower

[fathom hill]

dragons, imagine if the steel people's moving kingdom is actually a boat

gilded boat

[muted lantern]

Maybe at some point well learn a little more of her dead lovers but I doubt well ever get an explicit label.

[stable violet]

i asked if the weavers/herrah gms created are all related to each other or if they are different genetically given that they were a bunch of random pharlids minding their business and the answer i get is some rando responding some crap about lace and hornet, also my question about what crests have to do with the family tree was left unanswered

[sinful nimbus]

Dynamite fishers when I show them how to throw a shock fruit

[cedar skiff]

dragons… imagine ??

[lethal burrow]

I always imagined it to be like on an artificial Island

[fathom hill]

again imagine

[vestal swan]

Ok yeah but if the bay wasn't scrapped bc of conflicting physics or themes do u think there will be a trout economy

[fathom hill]

dragons, imagine if that were true

[cedar skiff]

all im asking is for hornets only confirmed lover to be female and i will be satisfied

for now its lesbian until proven otherwise

[vestal swan]

It's the opposite

[cedar skiff]

shhh

[foggy fractal]

yes I think there would be a trout economy, because I think that would be cool

[vestal swan]

We know she has had male partners and nothing else

[sinful nimbus]

Crests have nothing to do with family

[cedar skiff]

how do we know they were male

[vestal swan]

Bisexual Queen rise up

[vestal swan]

Because in context she talks about not being able to have children which wouldn't happen with a female partner

Specifically the curse

[sinful nimbus]

You can be infertile and lesbian

[cedar skiff]

when

[vestal swan]

Yes but you would not be stopped by the curse if your partner was lesbian?

[cedar skiff]

this is putting two separate instances together

conch fly dialogue and eva im assuming?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet never says she attempted to have children she just says she can't

[stable violet]

why was it in that image that powdered posted about the family tree of gms and pk

[cedar skiff]

no correlation

[lethal burrow]

What if your partner is trans?

[sinful nimbus]

iunno

[fathom hill]

We really don't know what ascension means to bugs much, they used to be regular unrelated pharlids, weavers were intended to be gms daughters but at some point they may have separated themselves, via the "she called us daughters, she lied" thing with first sinner

[vestal swan]

Hornet: I've had mates that couldn't live as long as me
Hornet : my body is also affected by the curse
= Male partners in the past

[fathom hill]

we obviously can't ask them so that's most of what we got, but they referred between each other as sisters

[vestal swan]

I wonder if that's something masks are able to do

We don't have any examples yet

[fathom hill]

you also said this already

[cedar skiff]

it’s affected by the curse because shes also a weaver??

[vestal swan]

Someone new asked about it

[cedar skiff]

i think she knows shes a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

??

[cedar skiff]

and her mother was affected by the curse

[fathom hill]

She does yeah

[cedar skiff]

like

her existence is the way it is because of the curse

[sinful nimbus]

Actual non sequitur

[cedar skiff]

ofc shed know about it

and that she bears it

[foggy fractal]

we'll get the answer in a dlc trust

[sinful nimbus]

"Hornet can't have kids and she's dated people in the past therefore we can deduce her dates were male"

[stable violet]

i see

[muted lantern]

Weavers all consider each other sisters, well it's kinda grey if they are literally blood related gms essentially created them, they were entirely different creatures with entirely different minds that GMS transformed into her children, I think in this weird magical world it makes them technically her daughters, them all being linked with their origin as the being they by the through line of her silken evolution.

They step siblings if not just regular siblings.

The base creatures for the weavers were probably not related by much there's even theories that other arachnids than pharlids were made into them, hence herrah looking so different. But again I'd consider gms turning those creatures into something brand new is basically her creating them, making her their mother.

[fathom hill]

I mean you could intepret either, I like to think that she did try to have offspring but gave up

[lethal burrow]

I just had a thought guys be completely honest with me.

What's worse, lacenet? or all those artists who know absolutely nothing about the game drawing hornet and the knight together as a couple 💀

[fathom hill]

could that recontextualize the cursed ending some?

maybe

[cedar skiff]

well hornets also canonically gay married to eva

[fathom hill]

lmao yah

[vestal swan]

Hornet knows she's affected by the curse, so she failed to have children. She's the only descendant we know of and she confirms that she's also affected

[fathom hill]

intertwined

[cedar skiff]

see now were all being nonsensical

[fathom hill]

So platonic

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers can't conceive kids you don't need to try that to know that

[cedar skiff]

this is just speculating

[muted lantern]

Its like the couples costumes on Halloween meme if you've seen that. Couples having no idea about the source material and dressing up as like superman and supergirl lol

[vestal swan]

Step requires marriage, they are all kidnapped orphans.

[sinful nimbus]

"I know I can't fly therefore I jumped off a skyscraper"

[fathom hill]

Lacenet mentioned yeehaa

[vestal swan]

It's not a yes or no thing it's a difficulty bar, it's like the exact opposite of how high being qualification works

[cedar skiff]

surely shed know because her birth circumstances were special what exactly lead to this uniqueness

[vestal swan]

*"I know it's hard for me to fly because I jumped off the roof and hit the floor"

[sinful nimbus]

Its for all intents and purposes impossible

[fathom hill]

This combo is so dumb

yall are unbelievable

[spark valve]

naaah it's not like she grew up around weavers or literally anyone who knew herrah existed

[muted lantern]

What I'm arguing is they are close enough to being biological daughters imo, considering they were turned into completely different beings physically and mentally by gms.

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah needed to mate with a god to succeed in having a child

[vestal swan]

No lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think Hornet was dating the blackwyrm

[stable violet]

this almost feels like a parallel with something but i have no idea what

[foggy fractal]

Hornet X Blackwyrm ?!

[fathom hill]

no way cuz she is dating me

[sinful nimbus]

Then how'd she have a child

[vestal swan]

They were mutated by her power I wouldn't say that makes them genetic, none of her daughters are genetic.
That is the entire point of saying biological and genetic, blood relation.
How she treated them does not change the fact that they are literally kidnapped and gaslit

[cedar skiff]

you’re deliberately leaving out the part where hornet says shes a child of one who overcame the curses limits

thats
how shes
aware of it

“I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.”

[vestal swan]

Some of them might be blood related to each other from before they got mutated but that's not really relevant

[stable violet]

so basically on the family tree level they are sisters because gms made them but on a genetic and or biological level the weavers are not related?

[muted lantern]

Tho I don't fully agree with powdered here I will say that it's only said to be extremely difficult and painful for weavers to have kids, not impossible, though presumably pale kings nature made conceiving much more likely.

[fathom hill]

unless you' changed the dialogue, doesn't the "and" imply separation?

[cedar skiff]

no its the dialogue as it is

[fathom hill]

She is talking abt two different things, she is a victim of the curse AND she is a spawn of someone that overcame it

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[vestal swan]

Unless they were related to each other before mutation

[fathom hill]

reading comprehension smh my head

I'm kidding

half

[muted lantern]

I suppose that's fair enough I concede the point.

[stable violet]

i see

[muted lantern]

Irregardless they all consider themselves sisters and all but one as far as we can tell consider gms their mother.

[stable violet]

i feel like there is some parallel between that and how the radiance made the moth tribe but we know much less about that plot hole so nvm

[cedar skiff]

you could literally interpret it in so many ways eitherway

[fathom hill]

Some have compared ascension of bugs with how the abrahamic god created humans, we're all his "children" thus we're all "brothers and sisters"

[vestal swan]

It's like a nun sisterhood

[fathom hill]

Sure

[cedar skiff]

wording in these games dialogue is just anything

[fathom hill]

Yah sure, but dialogue means things

including writing

Some things can be shaped and intepreted differently, but some decisions when writing have a reason yknow

[cedar skiff]

i mean yeah but when its such a far reach like this one i am inclined to doubt it

[quick geyser]

The hell are we talking about

[fathom hill]

lacenet

[vestal swan]

Family trees

[fathom hill]

hehehe

[cedar skiff]

yes lets go for round two of lacenet unethical discourse

[fathom hill]

Yippee

[cedar skiff]

round 375 actually

[vestal swan]

family tree

[sinful nimbus]

What about Second Sentinel x Hornet

[fathom hill]

Never gets old

[fathom hill]

peak honestly

[vestal swan]

Now the robot yuri I can get behind, she literally put her broken heart back together

[fathom hill]

It's great

[foggy fractal]

guh...guh... Grimm ?!?!

[sinful nimbus]

They have thematic parallels and they complete eachother because Hornet owns slaves and Second Sentinel captures them

[fathom hill]

Second character Hornet tells friend to in game

[sinful nimbus]

TUFF

[cedar skiff]

insert hornet green prince journal entry

[quick geyser]

Occasional Lacenet discourse 😔

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[fathom hill]

We are in hell

[foggy fractal]

tc's writing is so good !

[cedar skiff]

?

[sinful nimbus]

What don't you understand

[cedar skiff]

your writing amazes me

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you

[cedar skiff]

no i understand im just in awe

[fathom hill]

baby with the knight

[muted lantern]

I've definitely seen people arguing that sister is used by them in only the religious sense not familial, but I think it's more of both, they consider themselves GMS's daughters (excluding first sinner) as well as being kind of a religious sisterhood.

[fathom hill]

hey wasnt the knight in body and mind a fetus

[foggy fractal]

so who's pregnant

[fathom hill]

how does he get a pass

[fathom hill]

me

[sinful nimbus]

Body yes mind perhaps not

[fathom hill]

but they get called a child by npcs

[sinful nimbus]

Also TK doesn't have much to do with Grimmchild's creation uh 🥴

[muted lantern]

Definitely body of a newborn, nothing really gives us context on their mind so it's up in the air, they seem to be smarter than the average fetus.

[fathom hill]

!!!

I'm baiting

[fathom hill]

You think?

[sinful nimbus]

tbf PK kids seem kinda cracked

THK coming out of the egg understanding language:

[muted lantern]

Oh are you doing a bit? I thought it was a genuine question.

[fathom hill]

yah

[silk dirge]

runt and broodling:

[fathom hill]

I mean some people argue that the knight does have the mind of a fetus

but that's just crack

[foggy fractal]

do we think those guys on the right were bay enemies, they have hook like claw weapons, which means they were fishing, which means trout economy !

[muted lantern]

The void has a great k-8 education plan

[sinful nimbus]

shut UP let PK have at least one power

[muted lantern]

Extremely efficient at having kids

Fetusmulcher aside

[sinful nimbus]

is this why he's a higher being

Did the beacon even exist

[fathom hill]

Is the radiance with the moth tribe also ascended in a way

or the moth tribe just worshipped a deity that looks like a shiny moth

[muted lantern]

Didn't she like make them out of essence or smthm

Or am I misremembering the lore

[fathom hill]

That's my question cuz

what the pk did wasnt really that no?

In intelligence a material in this world

[stable violet]

hold up wouldnt hornet be a step aunt for grimmchild rather then step cousin since her half sibling is the adoptive parent?

[blissful harbor]

she made them, yes

she actually just ascended a lumafly

[stable violet]

why did team cherry feel the need to create the most complicated fictional family tree ive ever seen

[fathom hill]

cuz bugs

have you seen bugs irl

[stable violet]

yes

ive literally kept ant colonies before

[fathom hill]

Oh cool

skarr reference

[stable violet]

wait, eva and hornet are cousins? this gets more unhinged

the more i see this chart the more confusing it gets

[fathom hill]

They're both children of weaver

weavers were "sisters"

the graph is taking everything at face value but it's fun

[muted lantern]

I mean our main characters are part of a royal family, and we all know that shit is complicated irl, at least unlike the British royal family it's more of a web than a ladder

[fathom hill]

Hehehe

that too

[foggy fractal]

more of a... web... ? spider web... ? Weavers... ? hm....

[stable violet]

[lethal burrow]

I don't see the knight's children that they birthed from the glowing womb

[vestal swan]

I don't have the final version I didn't make this one

[lethal burrow]

how long before we get to Elden Ring meme family tree levels of absurd

[sinful nimbus]

Reading Elden Ring in #sk-lore activates the memories...

[stiff furnace]

wsg guys

[fathom hill]

Have any of you played dark souls 3

[vestal swan]

No elden ring in here

[stiff furnace]

hell naw

[vestal swan]

No ds either

[fathom hill]

What do you think abt the supposed references in game

[vestal swan]

Wdym

[fathom hill]

Are they accurate or just a stretch

[stiff furnace]

yo guys

[fathom hill]

Hi

[vestal swan]

I saw a few character parallels in the first game but I don't remember anything lining up with 3

[stiff furnace]

i have a THEORY (actually just a question)

[vestal swan]

Also I'm pretty sure they didn't actually play dark souls and they said that in one of the amas?

[fathom hill]

Some people say that bileater is a ref but

idk I haven't played it

[vestal swan]

So not intentional iirc

[stiff furnace]

when you go to pinmaster plinney

[vestal swan]

Most of the souls games have a poison/swamp area
One is a sewer

[stiff furnace]

how when he sharpens the needle

[fathom hill]

I've heard at least two things so if it was some kind of inspiration

maybe the herald

yknow...

[stiff furnace]

how can silk grind metal?

like silk can HEAL you

[vestal swan]

Silk isn't grinding metal???

[stiff furnace]

yes!

[sinful nimbus]

The humble nail sharpening cutscene

[stiff furnace]

pinmaster plinney

[vestal swan]

It's a sharpening wheel, how is it made of silk

[sinful nimbus]

Look at it 💔

[stiff furnace]

when he sharpens the needle he does it on metal

[spark valve]

there's a souls character called the herald but they don't do the same thing, most claimed references to from games in hk and ss are just bullshit

[fathom hill]

its made of silk

[stiff furnace]

HOW

[fathom hill]

Whta I've seen as explanation is that he is not grinding it

[vestal swan]

Vaguely red image???

[fathom hill]

Idk swords or metal but sharpening and refining are different things or something

[stiff furnace]

IF ITS MADE OUT OF SILK THEN HOW DOES IT SHARPEN THE NEEDLE

[sinful nimbus]

Dark Souls is rushed unfinished slop
Silksong is rushed unfinished slop

[fathom hill]

nah im bsing we dont know why is it that way

But the process that the pinmaster and the nailmaster do is different

[fathom hill]

Nailmaster is shaping the nail, pinmaster is returning the needle to its original form

So maybe he is cleaning it or something idk

[vestal swan]

Oh polishing

[sinful nimbus]

waot ????

The cutscene totally makes it look like silk

[fathom hill]

yah that

[stiff furnace]

true

OH WAIT

[fathom hill]

7 years btw

[stiff furnace]

silk is also used TO KILL ENEMIES

[vestal swan]

He can have 2 wheels
Wet
Sharpen
Oil
Polish

[stiff furnace]

fr

[fathom hill]

Fair

[stiff furnace]

a wetstone

[lethal burrow]

why was I being too positive in my message? Is that why you deleted it?

[stiff furnace]

yk a wetstone?

[fathom hill]

The guys at the whiteward do still use like their blunt body dmg and metal for it no?

idk if silk on itself hurts

[lethal burrow]

It's actually a thing in real life to spin blades on wheels of silk to get them really clean and sharpened

[vestal swan]

It was about a dif game? Also I don't understand the blank red black image

[lethal burrow]

oh what it was because it was a different game? I thought people were allowed to talk about other stuff as long as it was negative

[stiff furnace]

it doesnt but hornet kinda has silks powers so im guessing she can weaponize silk?

[fathom hill]

Oh yeah ig that's fair

[vestal swan]

Star making up rules or smth and y'all listened?

[sinful nimbus]

💔

[fathom hill]

I don't listen to anybody dawg

[sinful nimbus]

mltts thinks critiquing silksongs story is against the rules or smt idk

[fathom hill]

well barely

[stiff furnace]

[sinful nimbus]

Joker told them to cut it out and here we are

[vestal swan]

Whos mllts

[spark valve]

story discussion? in my story discussion channel?

[foggy fractal]

no not allowed, I don't make the rules

[lethal burrow]

Joke Once timed to me out for just reciting game dialogue so I wouldn't consider them an actual moderator with any credibility.

[sinful nimbus]

Uh huh

[lethal burrow]

apparently, it was inappropriate language

[fathom hill]

they gonna mute u for shitposting

[sinful nimbus]

That's dumb but wtv

[fathom hill]

Anywayss

did yall play ds3 or nah

cuz i wanna revisit the herald dialogue again

[spark valve]

yes but I don't see the relevance

[lethal burrow]

fujking... that's bulshiit though people do that all the time

[fathom hill]

ik right?

[vestal swan]

Ds herald is nothing like MM

[lethal burrow]

She's in the second game not the third one

Emerald Harald

[fathom hill]

If it was a potential inspiration, it's ought to be something there

It could very much not be anything

But I haven't played the game so i wouldn't know

[vestal swan]

For one, Mr mushroom exists

[spark valve]

herald is just like an english word that describes what mister mushroom does

[lethal burrow]

heraldry

[fathom hill]

what are yall talking abt

Idk if theres a herald is ds3 that's not my point

[lethal burrow]

mr. Munchroom

[spark valve]

none of the ss mm dialogues really line up with it if that's what you're going for

[fathom hill]

I mean if it's relevant and it draws comparison with the herald of our game

then yeah go on

[spark valve]

it doesn't

[fathom hill]

I'm personally not drawing any comparison though

[lethal burrow]

But even if it doesn't, people should still be allowed to explore the possibility

[fathom hill]

cuz again haven't played it

[stiff furnace]

i wonder what the first dlc will be for silksong

[fathom hill]

Also there's an anime right? the one with a stage of flowers?

[lethal burrow]

fair ds3 is ehh

[fathom hill]

does anyone know what im talking abt

[spark valve]

are you trying to refer to sekiro

because that's also unrelated entirely

[fathom hill]

what do you think would be for if not ss

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/sekiro-video-game-moon-fields-gif-17684069

its sekiro

not dark souls 3

[sinful nimbus]

Flower fields are dope setpieces thats basically it

[lethal burrow]

but yeah

[fathom hill]

anime i said

or movie

japanese girls

[stiff furnace]

wdym

[fathom hill]

I read wrong

[vestal swan]

I pointed out a few anime similarities as a joke but none of them or the DS ones are intentional

[sinful nimbus]

Steel sity 🗣️

[fathom hill]

Lemme go check the name if it rings any bells

[lethal burrow]

hollow knight started development in 2014 and released in 2017.
there are 36 months in 3 years. the first DLC was 6 months after release
6 is 13.67% of 36
Silksong took 7 years to make, if we assume the relative scale and development time compared to the base game is the same, then the first DLC for silksong will release in 13 and a half months after silksong's release, as 13.44 months is 16% of 7 years.

[vestal swan]

The only anime scene I can think of you might be referencing is the congratulations scene from evangelion

[fathom hill]

bells

like skong

brb

[fathom hill]

No its another old one

[lethal burrow]

yeah sekiro is the thing they're making an anime out of

[vestal swan]

Ai production

[fathom hill]

has it came out even tho?

[vestal swan]

Slop

[sinful nimbus]

What if SS took inspiration from good anime like nausicaa

[stiff furnace]

im gonna brainstorm some ideas of future dlcs

[sinful nimbus]

HK was inspired by Angel's Egg iirc

[stiff furnace]

maybe like a plasmium lore kinda thing

[sinful nimbus]

Someone asked ari if he was inspired by nausicaa but the snake only confirmed AE

[vestal swan]

TC are ultra boomer weebs

[lethal burrow]

there are two conflicting statements choose which ever one you want to believe

[lethal burrow]

It has not come out yet no

[fathom hill]

The name of the anime I'm talking abt is "Revolutionary girl utena"

which comparisons are they sword fight and the stage is one of flowers

in a floating platform with a huhhhh

[vestal swan]

There's more statements from their company that they use ai in every one of their productions and are proud of it, but this isn't really the channel for the in depth conversation

[fathom hill]

elevator thing kind of similar apparently

[spark valve]

do you have any idea how much of a trope that is

[fathom hill]

I haven't seen it so I wouldn't know

[fathom hill]

I mean

[lethal burrow]

it's cool. Fighting in a white flower field is cool.

we know they allegedly play from software games. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sekiro inspiration

[vestal swan]

The sekiro scene in question isn't even flowers

[sinful nimbus]

[fathom hill]

it looks like grass to me but i believe you

[sinful nimbus]

What's crazy is Sekiro did the tool and shellshard system 6 years ago and it sucked there too

[vestal swan]

It's wild grass

[sinful nimbus]

TC 6 years behind the curve 💔

[fathom hill]

yah

Haven't played sekiro

[lethal burrow]

Close enough

[fathom hill]

I haven't played or seen anything everything i say can be disregarded

[lethal burrow]

We know they play the games from this developer and the scene is pretty iconic in the game that it's from so I just think it's not too wild that they might have drawn some inspiration for that

[fathom hill]

anyways huhhhh

so im assuming yall havent seen it

So no comparisons here for now

[vestal swan]

Do we know that? I thought the only comment about it was that they didn't play it

[fathom hill]

also tropes come from places but yknow

[lethal burrow]

at least it's not as bad in silksong .

there was NO earthly reason for the amount of shell shards in sekiro needed to use prosthetic tools to arbitrarily increase throughout the game.

Over the course of the game it goes from 5 to 20 like why why does it arbitrary increase? Why would you do this? It's horrible stop. The game is really good. It's just man. Why did they why why did they do this?

[spark valve]

that doesn't really affect my point whatsoever

[fathom hill]

Sure bud

[lethal burrow]

there's an interview where they say They played dark souls and they have confirmed that the shade is inspired by blood-borne blood echos.

[spark valve]

when something is a widespread trope its presence doesn't indicate specific inspiration

because it's a trope

[fathom hill]

It's real obvious they played bloodborne

[lethal burrow]

they've also said they haven't played dark souls though, but that was before the games launched so I think it might've been for PR because afterwards they did say they played it. I think it is even in the new Moss bag video where he shows the clip

I can understand for hollow knight them not wanting to make people think it's a souls game because it's not

[lethal burrow]

It's a cool trope

[fathom hill]

They said they haven't played ds when they made hk

Since people were doing comparisons

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

Also consumables in Sekiro are kinda mid

[fathom hill]

I'm guessing given how many were drawing comparisons to it they decided to try it or something

maybe that's how they ended up with celeste too

[sinful nimbus]

Imagine if SS had snap seeds...

[foggy fractal]

shell shards is in sekiro ? tc ripped off sekiro ? should we cancel tc ?

[fathom hill]

fans drawing comparisons that strike curiosity

[fathom hill]

tc ripped off everything

[lethal burrow]

i'm OK with people ripping off good systems but at least for the bad system that they took, they made it better

[fathom hill]

Someone said Hornets movement is traced from castlevania symphony of the night lol

[visual glacier]

Not traced

[lethal burrow]

I mean a little bit animation wise for inspiration, but it's not wholesale lifted

[whole marsh]

Her turn around animation is similar

[fathom hill]

Ig the poses

Skeletal deconstruction

[fathom hill]

kind of

[visual glacier]

It’s similar poses and animation definitely

Probably a reference

[lethal burrow]

not to mention the cogwork dancer arena is pretty much just the inverted castle room

[fathom hill]

Yah that too

Tc ripping off small indie studios smh

[lethal burrow]

they said they actually didn't intend to make a metromania when they first set out. So maybe after the game being compared to it so much they went and tried out the big metromania games to see how they were lol

I give up AutoCorrect I don't care

[fathom hill]

metromania

brb

[jade skiff]

Did Pharloom exist before GMS?

[visual glacier]

Yes

[jade skiff]

thanks

[visual glacier]

It probably wasn’t called pharloom

[blissful harbor]

not the kingdom of pharloom

that was a product of the weavers and conductors and shit

[visual glacier]

Well actually, gms probably existed before pharloom, but she wasn’t ruling anyone

[blissful harbor]

the place and people before it, yes

[eternal gazelle]

we don't actually have any inclination one way or the other on this

[visual glacier]

We don’t really know how higher beings like unn or gms come into existence

[eternal gazelle]

it would be pretty sensible for her to suddenly come into being and immediately start subjugating bugs

[olive quartz]

would fit with what we see with the pale king for instance, although we do know he travelled

[visual glacier]

We don’t know how the white lady came into existence either

For all we know, she took queens gardens before the Wyrm’s arrival

[frigid belfry]

Oh yeah what happened to the idea that wyrms created the foundations of kingdoms by burrowing through ground

[visual glacier]

Where does that come from

[frigid belfry]

There was an older theory that wyrms kind of did that, it had some decent evidence, but it never really went anywhere

I’m curious if that developed anywhere in ss

[frigid belfry]

Gms existed before the kingdom of pharloom, but the area itself (and perhaps the old hearts) may have existed before gms

We have no idea how old grandma really is though

Pharloom is much older than hallownest

[visual glacier]

Yes

Weavers were probably in hallownest when pale king arrived

[frigid belfry]

Yeah we know at the very least they were in deepnest at, or before pks rule

And the weavers had essentially already constructed the basis of the citadel before fleeing

[visual glacier]

Yeah they had made the citadel of stone

Then dipped

[frigid belfry]

Citadel of stone is kind of funny

[visual glacier]

Yk what I mean right

[frigid belfry]

I like the idea that the conductors just slapped gold looking alloy on the citadel and then dipped

[visual glacier]

Conductors didn’t dip

[frigid belfry]

2 of them are dead/gone

One is dying lmao

[visual glacier]

Ballador dies in act 3

[frigid belfry]

Oh yeah i forgot he did that

[visual glacier]

But conductors didn’t dip

They commanded the choir/citadel for a while before the cogwork core was established

[unique canopy]

Ostensibly they were still in command of the Citadel, but practically the Haunting messed with that

[frigid belfry]

Yeah I probably should have phrased it different

Wasn’t there also the implication that they established the underworks

[visual glacier]

They sent out a commandment to capture hornets

[visual glacier]

Underworks maintains the core iirc

[frigid belfry]

I assumed gms was the one who influenced them via haunting shenanigans

[visual glacier]

She had some intervention probably

Due to the envoy hunters notes

[frigid belfry]

Would something similar to what we see in strung to serve happen if lace failed to free hornet

[visual glacier]

Doesn’t matter

It’s not canon

[frigid belfry]

Just wondering, since we know gms wanted to absorb hornet

[visual glacier]

Probably

[timber pond]

The all "endings are cannon" thing would only have merit if team cherry eventually make games that are cannon after only specefic endings lol

[muted lantern]

How bad do yall think hornet feels nowadays about her killing of the vessels, even if it was necessary? it seems like shes come to understand they were never truly empty, Hornet in the first game seems to be pretty ambivalent to the deaths of the vessels, saying things along the lines of "I wont bear any sadness for a weaklings death" (paraphrased) I personally always read that as a front, a way for her to deal with what she had to do, with the people she couldn't save, it seems like something she adopted to protect herself, because she watched the kingdom die, and could do very little to stop it, so she hardened herself against it, detached herself. I think this largely because this mentality seems to have faded by the time she arrives in pharloom. but what do yall think?

It's clear she at least cared about thk, if her lines to lace about beings believing themselves to be empty are about them

[unique canopy]

imo it was more that Knight was special, and of course HK was the brother she was never able to grow up with. I didn't get the sense she cared about the mass of vessels beyond coming to terms with Hallownest's void shenanigans.

[muted lantern]

I don't mean cared for them as individuals, but more feeling bad for her duty being the judge jury and executioner of her own kin, who by all accounts werent trying to do anything wrong, they were just called back her by no will of their own, not knowing the destruction they could cause. What im wondering if a little of that "i won't feel bad about the death of the weak" mentality has faded, considering she seems to sympathize a lot with sherma and feel bad for pilby when he is killed unceremoniously. She seems to be a lot more sympathetic to those who can't defend themselves, even though some of her hunters instinces remain, judging wild beasts for growing too soft in comfortable environments.

[silver tundra]

One of the ending spoilers: ||Could someone tell me why is there exactly a "cursed" ending for GMS/Silksong? The other endings felt narratively tied, but the cursed one felt a bit random to me.||

It's a question!

[muted lantern]

Its just a bonus ending as a reward for doing a difficult challenge. you get it by beating gms while cursed by greyroot, which is exceptionally hard. Presumably the killing and binding of gms is supposed to represent hornet giving in to her desire for power, hungrily taking it. This ending is showing hornet moments before triumph being consumed by another creature hungry for power, this one more opportunistic, taking advantage of the moment and claiming everything for itself. I don't know how thematically important it is, but maybe its to say hornet claiming the power for her self is no different than the hungry parasite?

also you don't need to tag spoilers here

this is spoiler central

[silver tundra]

Mmmmmm gotchaaa

[silver tundra]

Ah okay ty

[silver tundra]

Yeah that makes sense in a way. The other endings made sense from a story perspective, while the parasite one felt super out of place. But you mentioning how its to say: " hornet claiming the power for her self is no different than the hungry parasite", does bring a little bit more clarity to me.

It also makes me wonder like,

in that ending, was everyone free of silk?

I didn't complete the ending, or attempt it at all,

so I don't know if it's even explained why is this parasite able to make a God fall.

Or even its origins and stuff.

[muted lantern]

presumably no more silk, but probably something much worse is unleashed on the kingdom

I think the concept is whichever god takes power the pain and suffering will be no different for the common bug

[naive lake]

Is groal the great a fly-like?

[unique canopy]

I think the difference in the "weakling's demise" mentality is that, when she said that in HK, it was for the purpose of testing the Knight to see if it was strong enough. The end goal at that point is for a being to come along that could kill Radiance the old fashioned way; there's no point claiming the Brand and slaying the Dreamers if the Knight could not accomplish this. With characters like Sherma, Pillby, and the other pilgrims, they are under no such pressure to aid her in saving Pharloom, so she feels sympathy for them that she could not allow herself to feel for the Knight, at least at the time.
tl;dr different circumstances and contexts

[muted lantern]

Hes probably a stillkin? very hard to say, some stillkin have wings

[silver tundra]

Yeah probably.

[visual glacier]

Groal is the chief of the stilkin, so it’s safe to assume that they are one

[silver tundra]

I won't lie, I was fully expecting the ending to Act III was gonna be a jab to everyone saying that Hornet isn't Void (which is true), and that she becomes a Void being for a little bit in order to eradicate it all. lol

[muted lantern]

what im saying is that with how sympathetic she is even to others, even her foes in silksong I think she'd probably feel a little bad in retrospect knowing the vessels were consious beings, lace is her enemy, brings about nearly the end of the kingdom, is directly trying to murder her. and she still ends up caring for her in the end, even comparing her to the vessels.

and lace is in a pretty similar situation, a victim of the means of her creation

[naive lake]

I find it kinda funny how hornet is just a relative to the entire void

Or 2% of it

[muted lantern]

"this one, i will not allow the dark to take" implies she feels bad about the vessels to me. It seems like she wants to save lace as a sort of means of making things right in a way.

[unique canopy]

Considering the parasite is sealing off enough silk that Hornet can't do anything with it, there's the possibility that the parasite can feed on it, which is also how it absorbs GMS, and means it could spread out all over Pharloom feeding on the silk of everyone there. It's also theoretically why the parasite was initially nested in Bilewater under the Vaults and right next to Exhaust Organ, so it could feed on silk in the air and/or water.
I think this is mostly speculation though.

[visual glacier]

Hence “Sister of the Void”

[unique canopy]

I might have missed something to the contrary, but the impression I got is that the other vessels who escaped were acting more on instinct than any conscious thought. Knight was special because it wasn't the same.

[visual glacier]

No

The only thing that made the knight different from the other vessels is the items they collect, especially the voidheart

[muted lantern]

"Hi so this is my sibling hollow, and this is the darkness that writhes below the world, devouring all life that touches it, which is constituted of several billion of my dead siblings"

[visual glacier]

Who tf is hollow

[naive lake]

knigh

[timber pond]

Little Ghost is a better name

[muted lantern]

Hollow is thk

just a shortened title

[visual glacier]

Sealed vessel?

[muted lantern]

yes

[visual glacier]

Yeah hollow is a shit name

[muted lantern]

sealed vessle is the name of its soundtrack it's called the hollow knight

[timber pond]

THe Hollow Knight, pure vessel ,sealed vessel lol

[visual glacier]

Especially considering their character

[unique canopy]

Leaving Hallownest and then returning by itself made it very different, and Hornet explicitly mentions that fact as something important that set it apart from the others.

I'm normally quite perceptive. You I underestimated, though I've since guessed the truth.
You've seen beyond this kingdom's bounds. Yours is resilience born of two voids.

Knight's strength of will is something Hornet consistently (after the first meeting) points out as elevating it above the other vessels

[muted lantern]

The hollow knight ascended due to its seeming lack of emotion, being pure, the other vessels were presumably not pure. and thk wasnt either. Plus the whole game is about thk and the other vessels never being truly empty, that pk was wrong.

The siblings are described as having a will, same as ghost is with the void heart.

[timber pond]

THis is why We need a Hollow Knight game after Hollow Knight 😭

[muted lantern]

the only difference with ghost was they had the strength to succeed.

[visual glacier]

“Hollow knight”:silksong

Where

[timber pond]

No Hollow knight Hollow KNight

the game after Hollow Knight (the chracter)

[visual glacier]

Where would it even take place

[muted lantern]

that line described how it's as strong as it is, not that its less mindless than the others. also the siblings also are described as having a will in the same way ghost is

[visual glacier]

They are too tall for pharloom

[timber pond]

City oF steel Is the next "weavers den" on the choping block it seems....

[muted lantern]

The wastes I guess, lotta space to move

[visual glacier]

And fight Garpids

[silver tundra]

Is it just me, or is it really weird that something that hasn't really been given any sort of build up, or foreshadowing (as far as I'm concerned), showcases that it has crazy ass high-scaled capabilities, like legit overthrowing a God?

[visual glacier]

Wow very exciting

[muted lantern]

Which of hornet and her siblings would be the most hardcore gamer.

[timber pond]

City of Steel has just as much Foreshadowing as weavers den did

if not more actually lol

Weavers den had a Fuckass charm and "oooo a Weaver was there ooo"

[visual glacier]

Cause weavers den has no foreshadowing

[timber pond]

And we got a whole ass game about it

[visual glacier]

Hornet wasn’t even a weaver in hk

[timber pond]

Only the weavers could use silk tho

and she used silk

so

[visual glacier]

Yeah she used thread

[visual glacier]

Also that wasn’t canon by the first game either

[timber pond]

Also Midwife says she was related i think? idk

[unique canopy]

Silksong wasn't made because they wanted a story about Weavers, they wanted a story about Hornet and fit everything around that

[timber pond]

IM pretty sure at the very least midwife mentions that the weavers raised her

[timber pond]

Well i would be fine with that because then that means they dont care about making a story about The hollow knight in a sequel Strictly follow "all endings are cannon"

[visual glacier]

“A spritely thing, isn't she? Pale gift to the Nest and the Beast, and fair trade for sacrifice made.” Why the distinction

[timber pond]

Becaus thtas herrahs title? dosent nesseciarly mean shes seprate

[muted lantern]

I don't really get why the retcon conversation is still going tbh, herrah being a weaver is probably a retcon but it just is what it is now. even pre retcon its presumably that herrah was at least a spider.

[visual glacier]

Herrah was also “common bug” hornet being a weaver is a retcon

[muted lantern]

The nest referring to deepnest, the beast referring to herrah, i don't think either is supposed to be referring to the weavers

[unique canopy]

Retcon answer is she was a gift to Herrah personally (the Beast) and the Weavers as a whole (the Nest). But even without establishing Silksong's definition of Weavers in HK, she's still a gift to Deepnest's ruler and by extension Deepnest as a whole, as an heir.

[timber pond]

Well , we know weavers themselves are common bugs anyway lol. Not truly eleveated .

or truly "higher" like suggested

[visual glacier]

They were evolved from common bugs

So they are no longer common

It’s a retcon, simple as that

[muted lantern]

common beast, and considering the tablet was written a while ago, weavers could have easily been considered such when they first came to the land. before being elevated to a higher status only after one of their own became royalty. at least thats how i consider the meaning to be nowadays, retcon or not.

[unique canopy]

Yeah when the area has 3 or 4 higher beings in the same neighbourhood, Weavers aren't shit by comparison. It's only in Pharloom they were, and only because they could put the actual higher being to sleep.

[timber pond]

Yes but They Still Share that "origin" and thus if refred to as such, could be seen as a mater of perspective

[craggy smelt]

the 'common beast' thing was also said by the mushrooms who are dumb jerks
shows what they know

[visual glacier]

Pale king relied heavily on the weavers what are you on about

[unique canopy]

Like yes they were uplifted by GMS, but PK uplifted a bunch of bugs too. He just didn't go around calling them his divine children.

[muted lantern]

We also have to consider who wrote the tablet and the limited info they are relying on, they are mushrooms, they don't really have any reason to know what a weaver is

[craggy smelt]

probably foresaw that they'd get angry about it later

[visual glacier]

Mushroom clan sucks but they have some knowledge

[timber pond]

Yeah, exactly. So you could asume they knew thier origins just by vibe. Because thats how the fucking mushrooms work in this world aperently lol

They are bassicaly insulting weavers lol

[muted lantern]

knowledge of this kingdom, they don't really have a presence in pharloom, so no reason to know what a weaver is.

mr mushroom is a recent arrival

[craggy smelt]

as a retcon goes, it's pretty easily absorbed into pre-existing lore
Weavers were foreign, and joined the established kingdom of the Beasts - the mushrooms saw them as lower than the existing 'honored caste' of Beast royalty

[visual glacier]

Yeah

[unique canopy]

Weavers in Pharloom were big fish in a small pond. Weavers in Hallownest were big fish in an ocean with whales in it.

[stable violet]

what retcon are we talking here rn

[craggy smelt]

herrah being called a 'common beast' in a mushroom lore tablet
when she was actually a big fancy weaver lady

[visual glacier]

No Pharloom is an ocean with small-medium sized fish, hallownest is a lake with whales

[stable violet]

ah that

i dont think i have anything to comment on that actually

anyways i got a question, when widow got her uh mask or shell or whatever forcibly removed, was that uh random fabric on her face always there beneath the mask or was that placed on her after the fact or are there people that think that she was a drapemite or whatever

[visual glacier]

She put it there to protect her face or something

Probably

Or cover herself up

[craggy smelt]

discount mask

[unique canopy]

I want to say there's another enemy or boss that does something similar, but either she put it there herself or it just grew there naturally over time

[visual glacier]

Wdym does something similar

[craggy smelt]

uplifted driftlin

[stable violet]

one must wonder what the face of a weaver really looks like

[visual glacier]

Probably just a less thick widow head

Depends how thick the cloth is

[stable violet]

i see

hypothetically speaking if that cloth is actually a part of her and not placed does that causes any significant change lore wise or what we know about the weavers?

[visual glacier]

No

[stable violet]

i see

i wish we knew if that was cloth added on her though

[dire lynx]

the cloth was something she used to cover her face

after the masks removal

[regal crow]

What’s clover dancers lore. How’s the ghost there? I’m guessing it’s after GP’s bro was taken by citadel

[visual glacier]

Memory

[olive quartz]

the entirety of verdania is in memory

[visual glacier]

Lost verdainia is a memory

Also they are partners not bros

[olive quartz]

(they fucked, to be clear)

[visual glacier]

Well we don’t know that

[regal crow]

If it’s a memory, shouldn’t we be able to see the ghost

[olive quartz]

?

[olive quartz]

they're described as 'lovers'

[visual glacier]

It’s implied that green prince can’t fully remember him because of trauma or ages spent apart

[regal crow]

The other clover dancer during the boss fight

[visual glacier]

We don’t know if they fucked tho

[regal crow]

Oooohhhh

[olive quartz]

lovers are people who fuck each other

[visual glacier]

Ok

[olive quartz]

less coarsely, lovers are people in a sexual relationship

[visual glacier]

lov·er
/ˈləvər/
noun
plural noun: lovers
a partner in a sexual or romantic relationship.

[regal crow]

What’s their story? I’m guessing verdania was conquered, one of them was taken and turned into robot, green prince wandered, got captured later trying to rescue his partner

[olive quartz]

verdania wasn't quite conquered but simply fell

[visual glacier]

Basically the lover gave his body to become a robot so the citadel would not touch verdania

But he was too naive

[olive quartz]

the green prince's husband sacrified himself to protect verdania, but verdania died out regardless

[regal crow]

Assholes

[visual glacier]

I mean yeah everyone in the story is an asshole

Weavers are assholes gms is an asshole conductors are assholes

[olive quartz]

the green prince was later caged for unclear reasons but he seems to be on a mission to destroy the cogwork dancers so it could be that

[regal crow]

Not sherma

[visual glacier]

Sherma especially

[regal crow]

I was close then. He was trying to reach the dancers

[regal crow]

This i gotta hear

[visual glacier]

He considers them a cruel parody

[olive quartz]

yeah he had no intention of rescuing his husband to be clear; there was nothing to rescue

[regal crow]

Speaking of robots, who sent the soul butterfly to Hornet? I was rewatching the intro and a butterfly landed on the cage right before she broke out. I always guessed someone was helping us in that scene, but now I know what those butterflies are, now I’m more curious

Lace maybe? Gms? Ghost?

[visual glacier]

Probably lace but we don’t know for sure

It definitely wasn’t ghost

[olive quartz]

lace is shown conducting silk flies in deep docks so probably her

[frigid belfry]

Implied lace

[spare anvil]

is hornet a hornet

[frigid belfry]

Pretty sure some of her dialogue outright says she wanted to “see how far you would climb”

[frigid belfry]

no

[spare anvil]

why is she called that then

[frigid belfry]

Named by Vespa, the queen bee of the hive in hallownest

[tawdry flare]

presumably named by vespa
or herrah just likes the name hornet idk

[spare anvil]

[regal crow]

Nah, she’s a bee

[timber pond]

Hornets typicaly invade Hives. So perhaps as an "outsider" or "invader" with no prior name Vespa was just like "Bitch you a Hornet" and accepted that.

[spare anvil]

lmao

[visual glacier]

Vespa is a wasp name tho

And she’s a bee

[timber pond]

It can still apply as a title

like a "hornet" in Hk world is like abee slur for invader mabye

[visual glacier]

Anyway Vespa seems to repsect hornet and even gave her a sick needle

[regal crow]

What’s those glowing light things we collect to fight clover dancers?

[craggy smelt]

memory bits~!

(I wish they looked like Essence more)

[muted lantern]

So is mask laquer like a clear coat that goes over a mask or is it more like paint to add color to it?

[mild adder]

you know what i just realized?
Hornet would have been totaly fine had GMS actually dragged her down into the abyss, considering Ghost was there in a jiffy the moment hornet's bloom went out, i think he'd just pull her out again. To be fair neither hornet nor GMS nor lace were aware of this fact, how could they be, but i find it funny that Hornet would probably have been fine regardless, barring GMS just wringing her neck by 360 degrees before being devoured by the void.

[swift oracle]

thats granted ghost actually reaches her honestly

i kind of doubt gms would try to help hornet

[mild adder]

well GMS would try to kill hornet. i am just impressed by Ghost's speed regardless

[swift oracle]

or if she herself would try to resist the void

[mild adder]

can you imagine how funny it would be if the entire third act could have been avoided if Lace didn't interfere.
Probably very unlikely, but still, would be funny.

[swift oracle]

cause from what i understand she mainly resisted it to protrct lace

[swift oracle]

oh definitely

so like blame lace for the entirety of silksong

[mild adder]

lace is solely at fault for Garmond's death

[swift oracle]

GARMOND NEVER DIED !!! YOU CANT MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT

[mild adder]

ah you are in the same camp i am with pale king
very good

[swift oracle]

I can cope with the pale king's death

[swift oracle]

Garmond though. Don Quixote did not deserve this

[craggy smelt]

he's off hanging out with Quirrel

[muted lantern]

Im not super familiar with what lacquer paint is for irl, in the hk setting is it used to add the color to masks or just a clear protective coating? like are they masks no just naturally white? I assumed lacquer was like a clear finish.

[craggy smelt]

they're described as bone masks and they're made by carving, so they're probably fairly light colored already
but yeah - lacquer adds a nice final protective touch

[muted lantern]

Pale ore?

I doubt the average mask is made of that, probably just the special ones we collect shards of which seem to be quite fancy

[dire lynx]

Lacquer is used as a protective coat in wood and metalworking, it can be clear or coloured.

[ornate pier]

Mask maker's mask looking so much like a face still confuses me

Is every white face with black eyes a mask

[visual glacier]

No

[ornate pier]

I mean ss mask maker btw

[visual glacier]

For example the knight isn’t wearing a mask

[swift oracle]

Some creatures have a natural mask too iirc

[dire lynx]

it kind of is

[visual glacier]

Yes

[ornate pier]

Bunch of animals in silksong r stated to have masks

[visual glacier]

That’s just its shell

[dire lynx]

hornets mask is also her shell

[swift oracle]

I dont remember if Hornet's mask was natural but if it is i think you can assume that a vessel has a mask

[dire lynx]

it is

[swift oracle]

they share a parent too

[visual glacier]

I know this but I can’t recall where it comes from

Normalize giving sources

[cedar skiff]

i think the knights shell does at least double as a mask. mask maker kind of implies so
“...Does it know of the face that hides beneath? Such remarkable contrast the Wyrm conceived....”

[dire lynx]

maskmaker

[visual glacier]

That’s not a source

[swift oracle]

Hornet's shell being a natural mask?

[visual glacier]

A quote

[visual glacier]

They don’t say it’s a mask outright tbf

Just that the shade hides beneath

[dire lynx]

"A fine face, yours. Not of my work. Not of this kingdom's craft. Not now at least.
But the deeper form. Distant relationship. Some form of Pharloom and our old, legged, stewards.
Now! To work. To work! The masks are needed."

if someone asks ill give a quote, or if it seems needed, but its too much work to put the quote every time

[fathom hill]

mask

her mask

[muted lantern]

Oh mb, i thought the pale ore thing was referring to the picture you posted

[fathom hill]

Also interesting that it says transitional

Maybe it is confirmed by that that her crests will merge eventually

and thats why she only has one at the beginning

is mask reading like palm reading for them

watcher-past hunter-present monarch-future

[muted lantern]

Hes referring to her mask in a traditional state, and masks are tied to your identity, i think hes more discussing her identity was set in stone for ages, as a sentinel, and now shes beginning to grow, find out who she is, rebuild the identity she lost through the horrors of her endless duty.

[fathom hill]

is it why he says your kind rarely develop evenly

Her state of stasis in "growth" by remaining sentinel and after its fall she started to mature again

[atomic widget]

I mean that last line seems to support that notion

[fathom hill]

And like hornet says "oh but its been that way for ages", and he "ages don't mean anything to your kind"

As in that stasis was also just but a stage for your own development, no matter how many ages it took

[atomic widget]

This might be a stretch, but Hornet falling down to moss groto and making her way back up could be seen a symbolism for rebirth

[fathom hill]

Oh it very well could be

[atomic widget]

She fights a mother, and then gets woken up by what could be interpreted as a nun

[fervent sigil]

steel city where

[timber pond]

true

[twin dragon]

She adopts the very nature of the thing that antagonized her

Thats why she seemingly has no mask

In the ending

[fervent sigil]

question tho what happens to gms in SotV

[twin dragon]

She dies

[past cypress]

Dead

[fervent sigil]

binded, cursed, dead

[atomic widget]

folded like an omelette

[dense willow]

Was it the conductors who imprisoned phantom in the exhaust organ?

Seeing as the exhaust organ is gilded, so it was either constructed by the conductors, or renovated with the rest of the citadel, also it would only need to serve it's purpose after the construction of the cogwork core, which we know happened during the conductors rule

But for some reason ive heard loads of people saying it was gms who put them there, but why would she help with the system imprisoning her

[terse warren]

it definitely wasn't gms because the citadel was built to imprison gms

it was either the Conductors or the Weavers, since the Weavers made the Citadel

[dense willow]

Yeah, my logic against the weavers was that's I don't think they'd need the exhaust organ, and I just wanted to confirm I wasn't missing something important seeing as I'd seen so many people claim it was gms

[terse warren]

the gms hate is strong

but in reality she has no feats and no statements

meet potential woman

[twin dragon]

She does have quite a few feats

But she didnt do jack for most of the story

[terse warren]

the haunting
surviving against the void

das it

[twin dragon]

She spun artificial life while asleep and forcibly mutated a species as she wished

[terse warren]

mhhh true

no combat feats though

[twin dragon]

Lmfao poor thing woke up got beaten up by a demigod thats a mess inside and got voided

[atomic widget]

Not every god has to be an expert in combat or brute strength

Each one is strong in their own unique way

[cedar skiff]

gms is like

offscreen woman because

we hear so much abt her doing shit but theres no evidence of her doing anything ever

besides some bullshit like “oh the pale light got them all”

https://tenor.com/view/they-got-him-ted-ted-show-gif-4342699035732514153

you can never say for certain if its her own feat or the weavers or the citadel (it’s usually the latter)

[twin dragon]

Lwk we have unn as an example

[twin dragon]

Fym theres literally a lot of it

Most of that usually coming from the haunting or pre citadel era

with the kingdoms and shit

though that isn't very clear

because we don't know shit aside from the fact that they're old

[atomic widget]

personally assembling together a team of gods

[cedar skiff]

yeah thats the thing

theres always some weird ambiguity

[twin dragon]

For most of em the citadel would have no reason to rlly go after them

[cedar skiff]

at first its said gms nuked verdania but then the citadel is also mentioned

[twin dragon]

If they did rot away because of the citadel, its most likely collateral

[twin dragon]

it was the haunting

[cedar skiff]

i find that difficult to believe

why would a citadel under the haunting make the cogwork dancers

unless they really did uphold their promise

[twin dragon]

Who said it was under the haunting

They probably did

States the sacrifice was done before the haunting

[past cypress]

99% of Hollow Knight is statements

[cedar skiff]

like the inconsistencies aside how could the haunting just get rid of an entire portion of land

[past cypress]

And usually those statements are to be believed

Like Bardoon saying Wyrms have foresight

[twin dragon]

Rock could get pulled by the strings

since verdania was in a cave system

[twin dragon]

Deadass

[cedar skiff]

“ A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.”

Its so inconsistent

[twin dragon]

Some important lore just gets casually thrown around by a random ass npcs hidden away

[past cypress]

This is just saying that both GMS and the Citadel fucked over the surrounding lands

[twin dragon]

I believe the citadel did have play in it

[atomic widget]

I mean history is written by the victors

[twin dragon]

Especially how we see that lands are dependant on their rulers

With the old hearts n stuff

One of them died, the other fell hopeless

[cedar skiff]

i feel like its just inconsistently written and thats ok

[twin dragon]

It's tricky to understand

[cedar skiff]

i cant believe it silksong is not perfectly written media 💔

[twin dragon]

It has a lot of flaws yeah

But you dont call something inconsistent just because you dont understand it

[cedar skiff]

see i thought the idea of the citadel actually upholding their part of the bargain wouldnt even be bad. in fact they did the same with nyleth. but that dialogue implies they had some malicious play in its destruction*

[twin dragon]

I mean putting bro's soul into 2 automatons sounds pretty cruel

And that bargain actually benefited them

[cedar skiff]

say that dialogue actually means oh yeah the haunting (gms) and its little tools (the citadel)

[twin dragon]

It could've been the citadel's minions posessed

js like the ones that captured hornet

[cedar skiff]

pretty much everything about verdania is sort of wonky in general though so i take anything surrounding it with a grain of salt

[twin dragon]

But there is ambiguity

[twin dragon]

that's hk for you

[cedar skiff]

surely dlc will elaborate on the old hearts heartbreak 💔

[twin dragon]

wrong

Maybe

pin this wrong

[cedar skiff]

anything but a plasmium dlc please

well thats inevitable

[twin dragon]

Lifeblood dlc was qol

This game NEEDS some qol

[cedar skiff]

although plasmium dlc would likely introduce pharloom bay so i cant be too doomer about it

[ornate pier]

Dlc called plasmium with no plasmium related features

[twin dragon]

esp something that extends or foreshadows act 3 more

[ornate pier]

Pharloom baby should have pirates

[cedar skiff]

i dont think were getting a qol dlc i think all those changes will happen in patched since tc know what theyre doing now Sorta

[ornate pier]

You fight the Barnacle Captain wtv and it plasmifies itself mid fight

[cedar skiff]

that green prince death change was qol and added in a patch

[twin dragon]

Also it would make sense if gms sent haunted minions to destroy verdania, since the haunting is basically her will

[twin dragon]

fuck nah

[twin dragon]

Meh

that was a lil detail

[ornate pier]

It would be better than z*ngo trust me

[twin dragon]

Like they could add something mid story

for act 3

[twin dragon]

anything is better than that

[cedar skiff]

i wouldnt say it was a little detail. it recontextualized green princes death from hornet killing a gay bug because shes bored to a sacrifice for rebirth.

[ornate pier]

I wish they make like

Zango and huge flea real bosses in a future update

[cedar skiff]

although some additional dialogue to make that clear would be welcome

[ornate pier]

Like how some bosses were updated in hk in the same vein

Could do it to the craggler too literally has the like boss slowmo effect when you kill it

To me craggler is more of a moss charger type deal though

[twin dragon]

If anything she killed him in self defense

[cedar skiff]

well she intruded in his memory

[twin dragon]

True

but it didnt seem to bother him

till the throne room

[cedar skiff]

again i do wish more dialogue would make the good behind it clear. that putting the old hearts to rest allows for new hearts to flourish

[twin dragon]

And just like karmelita, he wanted to relive his glory days

[cedar skiff]

i wish khann water wasnt just a silkpost 🙁

[ornate pier]

Yeah super weird water doesn't appear in the coral tower

[arctic cliff]

First Mister Mushroom dialogue:
“…Crossed weapons, sleeping of course, but shaped unlike any you've seen before...
...To travel underneath is one thing, but travelling up above may require a different sort of sight...
...A path that meets itself is an ill portent indeed. Those who peer sideways know well enough...
...Oh. Excuse me.”

Can someone understand, what is he talking about?

About the second line, I think it’s about to travel on the surface with farsight

[frosty gate]

Mr Mushroom mostly talks gibberish and most of the things he says are just not something we can understand, since he's not talking to us.
Theory says Mr Mushroom, just like irl Mushrooms, is interconnected with other Mushrooms all around the world, so he's having conversations with people from other places.

Still, who knows wtf he's saying, most stuff is nonsense

He makes like 1 reference to Hungry Knight and that's about it, but it's not even directed to us so the reference still is weird

[arctic cliff]

In the first game, he talked about the other TC games : Hungry knight, tomb cat, and even Silksong

[frosty gate]

Hungry Knight and Tomb Cat, yes, they're likely references.
Idk what you mean about Silksong, it's honestly even unlikely that it's even the case because MM has been there since the beggining of the game, he was not an addition. Silksong is recent by comparison

[arctic cliff]

Last dialogue

“It’s not about tools you triumph…it’s about your smarts, your speed, your determination…”

[frosty gate]

I don't think TC had any clue of what Silksong would be at this point in time honestly, I wouldn't say this is it

[arctic cliff]

Maybe

[lean temple]

That's the most general statement ever it doesn't need to be silksong

Mister Mushroom himself was added to fill in the room where Cornifer is after Cornifer leaves

TC had zero idea of Silksong mechanics when they were writing that

One could try to argue retroactively that MM was predicting the future, but that isn't the original meaning of the text since TC weren't thinking if Silksong as of the time they wrote in those lines.

[pale narwhal]

wdym maybe? silksong was originally going to be a dlc for the first game without creating a whole new tool system

[blissful harbor]

that’s not something anyone really knows
like i personally doubt the hornet dlc would’ve just had her using the exact same charms as TK, tools would’ve been a thing in some capacity regardless with her sting shards

[ember river]

Mr Mushroom is an actual herald and made from magic, he is destiny not only for the characters on the screen, but for us as well

[twin dragon]

Mr mushroom visited me last night

I have been enlightened

[lean temple]

Caps and shells will fall to dust
But Mister Mushroom readjusts

[stray fog]

We will have the mr mushroom dialogue figured out by 2070

[twin dragon]

I figured it out

I really did it...

But he told me not to reveal anything or else he'd have to put lead in my head

[pale narwhal]

she probably would have had unique charms
but i really doubt they would have made a whole new system

[fathom hill]

we got around 3/7 of it at least

barely

roughly

[fathom hill]

also castlevania

[stray fog]

The only ones I know of are celeste and hungry knight

[fervent sigil]

flealia big white mother with a

[stray fog]

(Counting both games)

[fathom hill]

One seems to reference hk if im not mistaken

or it references the fact that silksong is sequel

[vestal swan]

There's other obvious Castlevania and Metroid references but I don't remember any in his dialogue

[fathom hill]

lemme check the dialogues again

first half is backwards but its still useful

crossed weapons, sleeping of course

is this abt gms, her arms are crossed

no?

[stray fog]

It might be

Because there is another line that seems to hint at in-game events

Something about flowers

[fathom hill]

fourth one?

[stray fog]

Yes

[fathom hill]

Which event

[stray fog]

Everblooms

They are flowers that cast light

Although its not a perfect fit for that dialogue

[fathom hill]

I wonder abt the communication thing

and the taking the journey home with you

the mementos are kind if like that

And the communication, we don't really get to act3 by talking to people though unless you count quests

[lean temple]

"If they cleave themselves free" seems to be the Weavers and how they want to weave free from GMS

[dark dragon]

Why is there no sun

[sinful nimbus]

Well its underground

Its also a fantasy world so there might not be a sun anyway

[vestal swan]

@foggy fractal I don't have a clip
I could have swore I did but I don't have like any clips of the first time I met the architect or going into that room somehow
And I took clips of everything

[sinful nimbus]

Wait clip of the architect chapel?

[vestal swan]

Yeah, Andy wanted to look at the inside and count the architects I think, I was certain I had a clip because I remember the room lighting up when you play the needolin

[foggy fractal]

funny story, I had a dream about that room last night lmao 😭 and I was still doing what I was trying to do while awake, i.e. count the number of architects in that room

[sinful nimbus]

🥺

[foggy fractal]

this part specifically

[sinful nimbus]

I can buy spider strings lfg

alr so needolin the architects or what

[vestal swan]

409 clips and most of them are boss deaths, where did all the lore shit I recorded go

[foggy fractal]

consumed by the void

[foggy fractal]

from everything I've seen it's just 10 bodies in there

[sinful nimbus]

First Architect was a chorus....

[foggy fractal]

first architect wasn't a robot theory 😊

[cedar skiff]

see you in two months when we find the first architects head in the background of a random room in the wormways

[cedar skiff]

although this is the likely one

[foggy fractal]

and then another 2 months later we find a vaultkeeper's cap in putrified ducts 😭

[cedar skiff]

the first one was an actual bug and its soul is the silkflies that power the other 11

cogwork dancers type shit

[lilac hedge]

ion see the 1

[foggy fractal]

me neither

maybe just a bad angle

[sinful nimbus]

Here it is from a different angle, its got the antennae

[foggy fractal]

ok that's fair, I coulda swore I counted 11 like a month ago

[vestal swan]

How did you get 12???

12s outside

[foggy fractal]

memory

[vestal swan]

Just looks like a orange blob to me

[sinful nimbus]

Its an architect

And 12 is the only non-corpse architect so its probably them

[foggy fractal]

we do see needolin dialogues for corpses right ?

[sinful nimbus]

Oh yeah I guess

It would be tuffer if it was 12 though

[foggy fractal]

😔 it would've been heat if every architect had a different design

[vestal swan]

Originality is dead

[sinful nimbus]

They also both go "Designs divine"

[foggy fractal]

billions must cancel tc

[ornate pier]

I mean the choruses and sentinels look the same so

[foggy fractal]

I think this is supposed to be the sprite used here ? it's flipped though

[cedar skiff]

it shows how they’re disposable and easily replaceable

no personality just serve the citadel forever

a nice contrast is how the pinstress all look different

[vestal swan]

It's also kind of funny how they made 12, they don't last forever, but they expected this amount of robots to last forever

[cedar skiff]

i think they just stopped making them when the haunting started

[sinful nimbus]

12 was just expected to make another architect before they passed

[cedar skiff]

but weirdly enough twelfth is also like

old

[ember river]

They aren't really replaceable though

[cedar skiff]

“Our melody? I r-r-recall! Yes! There was melody, once, but its sound... that I possess no longer...
T-t-t-too long I have worked. From my mind-vault, the imprint has f-f-faded. With many things it is like this... remembrance, dimmed...”

[cedar skiff]

its a perpetual cycle

[spark valve]

12th architect is called 12th architect because it totally isn’t a replaceable robot

[ember river]

I have a few theories about this, one I consider sensible is that each architect was meant to make another, but they had diminishing returns, which is why Twelfth can't make cogwork hearts or another architect

[ember river]

I meant not easily replaceable, architects are complex things

[cedar skiff]

they are replaceable though and forming a personal identity is irrelevant as theyre made only to serve. essentially why they all look the same

[ember river]

Yeah, their identity is that they build stuff and like building stuff

I wonder if First was organic, or if the architects were built by other hands

[outer token]

Just wondering, is there any lore about the Pinstress in Bilewater?

[spark valve]

Pretty much just that she’s a pinstresss

[outer token]

Got it

[rough ingot]

the constructors who built the architects are implied to be dead

[patent shale]

Yeah

[rough ingot]

i think 12th architect mentions it at some point

[lone folio]

So fayforn can canonically kill a Weaver as stated by the lore tablet on the bottom of mount fay. Now this means that this thing is pretty powerful and now I wonder if it could defeat Hornet in a fight if it decided that she was not cool enough

[rough ingot]

would be one epic fight, and ghost would have to bail her out again

[lone folio]

The hell would ghost do 😭

[rough ingot]

Drag hornet out of there, i mean, they arent using their shell anymore

[lone folio]

He's down in the void and he's not climbing out of there just because birb decided to not give her the cloak puff

[rough ingot]

Have lace help instead…

lace’s mom would be really angry

gms would be sooo angry to find out her favorite child was squished by a bird thing

[wise sand]

lace gets folded

[lone folio]

Lace wouldn't have a motive would she? They aren't friends at the time it would happen

[rough ingot]

true that

[lone folio]

True

[rough ingot]

shes in the lore implied to be really brittle too

meanwhile in the fights she has plot armor

[lilac hedge]

If gms is grandmother who is mother silk ( ik im a dumass)

[rough ingot]

I actually dont know what to say

[lucid atlas]

Well, Herrah

[rough ingot]

grandmother silk is hornet’s grandma, cuz she made weavers, and weavers made hornet

through some sketchy logic

[wise sand]

its grand mother silk

not grandmother silk

[rough ingot]

ive never fought her lol, my bro did when hes sick