sk-lore

[twin dragon]

Fym it didn't, it literally did

[edgy nebula]

khann probably puffed out his chest and got his ass mogged

[lethal burrow]

maybe schoot after ruminating on their latest drop

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I mean them uniting

[lethal burrow]

I'm a profile picture identifier. I literally don't know who you mean.

[muted lantern]

Sorry I just got my lobotomy can't help

[edgy nebula]

powdered water, the mod

[frigid belfry]

the ants still resist, but the order they had (under karmelita) is gone, its unlikely khann would lie about his civilization falling last on his deathbed

[lethal burrow]

Oh well, yeah I mean what about them?

[edgy nebula]

theyre questioning why you didnt put them on the list, methinks

[twin dragon]

Some of them resist, at the very least

And karmelita seemed to be able to keep singing not a long time ago

[frigid belfry]

when was this stated

[lethal burrow]

I wouldn't say they have the best theories or they're the most learned, or that they're the most good at producing productive conversation.

They're the most able to delete messages that's for sure but I don't think they're particularly noteworthy when it comes to this channel

[frosty gate]

The ants literally fell down already

[twin dragon]

I mean im just assuming it due to karmelita not being dead to starvation

[frosty gate]

It's the Motted ones

[lethal burrow]

there's still alive is what they're saying

[frosty gate]

The Motts resists

[sterile jacinth]

From context it seems like Karms singing stopped pretty recently

[frosty gate]

If you can call that alive, sure

[sterile jacinth]

Seeing as the Skarr are still… around

[frigid belfry]

yeah thats what im saying, but needolin dialogue implies SOME still resist, or remember karmelita (not succumbing completely)

[lethal burrow]

Singing is implied to be some resistance against the haunting if we're going by the ants and Sharma

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yea and the entire citadel of SONG lol

[edgy nebula]

khann probably isnt being literal about his "last to resist" line, he probably means directly fighting against gms

[frigid belfry]

her power (stated by hornet) rivals a demigod, along with being an ant queen, its not a stretch to say she has an incredibly long lifespan and requires little sustenance

[lethal burrow]

Yes, but that could be isolated and not just song in general

[frigid belfry]

which means his was the last to stand, the rest collapsed in terms of their militia

[lilac hedge]

Thats why karmelitas theme is so fire

[sterile jacinth]

What do you mean exactly?

[lethal burrow]

like Citadel stuff can just be regard that Citadel stuff or like Weaver magic sustaining or like oh whatever it's you know... unique to the citadel of that song as unique or something as opposed to it just being singing in of itself

[frosty gate]

That's because people don't lose themselves, The Haunting kinda just keeps them doing the same things

[twin dragon]

Verdania seems to have died out during the citadel's reign though

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I don’t think he would have considered the Skarr a threat. Also he could be the last to resist of his kingdom

[edgy nebula]

no kingdoms actively fought against gms, which is probably what khann meant

[edgy nebula]

he says "only us" not "only i"

[lilac hedge]

The only real people who resisted all this shi are the wisp thicket guys

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s more the song aspect that’s keeping gms asleep

[frosty gate]

All of them are Haunted, only the Vitiligo Ants are ok

[lethal burrow]

The citadel clearly was built over a period of time.

I think it existed for a period (however short) under grandmother silk

He didn't just materialize and put her to sleep. There was a transitional period

[sterile jacinth]

True

[frigid belfry]

my argument is that they collapsed, but the fact that they have not completely succumbed mentally means there is some resistance

[twin dragon]

It was literally built to keep her caged

[frosty gate]

Wait, wrong sickness isn't it

[sterile jacinth]

Those guys are their own brand of insane

[twin dragon]

They put her to sleep BEFORE making the citadel

[lethal burrow]

i'm not arguing otherwise, but it was built. It didn't materialize, grandmother silk would've probably out of noticed a big thing being built in the middle of the kingdom

[lilac hedge]

Im guessing flame scares void and i guess the influencie

[frigid belfry]

i believe verdania died out during early weaver reign, my argument is that khann fell before conductor reign

[lilac hedge]

They need more content ngl

[lethal burrow]

I'm under the impression that the citadel made her go to sleep so where are you getting that she was sleep before that I guess

[sterile jacinth]

I think they were building it as a trap. Like she thought it was a gift

[twin dragon]

The citadel initially was fairly basic and undecorated

[frosty gate]

I mean, not really, all of the kingdom is more or less in the same state

Dock workers still work

[frigid belfry]

yeah thats what im saying, so at the minimum, skarr and verdania fell pre conductor era

[twin dragon]

Buddy the mask maker, caretaker mentioning that the weavers built a "CAGE" to keep gms sealed

[frosty gate]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make

[lethal burrow]

It was stone, but it still had carvings so I don't know that's pretty fancy I guess

[sterile jacinth]

Well yes but I still think it could have been viewed as a gift for dear old mother

[twin dragon]

pontiff needolin dialogue

[lethal burrow]

you don't think that cage was the citadel??

[twin dragon]

the cage IS the citadel

[lilac hedge]

Which is the citadel of song we know to this day

[frosty gate]

The cage is the Citadel

[twin dragon]

Yeah im not arguing against that

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but like the citadel didn't just appear out of nowhere though?????? and grandmother silk wouldn't be to its construction, it doesn't make any sense she would've had to have been aware of it so it would've had to have some sort of trick

It was made by the Weaver's to bind her, but that doesn't mean it wasn't around in some form before it did this, with grandfather silk aware of its existence

[frigid belfry]

them working is the same as succumbing completely, bugs under the radiance did the same, im saying that while the skarr fell to gms, its individual bugs still had some resistance from remembering karmelitas song**

[twin dragon]

again, the citadel was fairly basic and undecorated so it wouldn't have taken much time to build

the entirety of it is designed to keep gms sealed

[sterile jacinth]

To me it’s like that analogy of boiling a frog. I believe it goes like if you immediately set it to boil the frog will jump out so you need to gradually up the heat.
I think they built the citadel intending for it to be a trap but they convinced gms it was a monument for her or something

[lethal burrow]

I don't know how basic you're thinking like it was stone instead of metal mostly but it still had carvings and all that, that's at least a bunch of chiselling. So I don't think anything you're saying really as a counter to anything I'm saying.

[frosty gate]

I don't really know what is the difference

[twin dragon]

There's rlly no way they could've started building this fucking megaconstruct without her noticing

[twin dragon]

Where is it stated it hard carvings

[lethal burrow]

There's no sign that got bigger. It just got more lavish.

[twin dragon]

???

Unrelated

[lilac hedge]

The menderbugs clutched in from hallownest and built it fast

Only real theory fr

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think it was a secret. I think they would have convinced gms that they were building her a shrine or smth

[twin dragon]

There's nothing pointing at it though

[lethal burrow]

The old Citadel in the days of the Weavers

Stone

[frigid belfry]

the (mostly) pilgrims, dock workers, and etcetera completely fell to the haunting, their minds were overtaken and showed no resistance, they continued on with their tasks while being overtaken, the same thing happened with the radiance, but im arguing that the skarr were different, their needolin dialogue implies each of them remembers karmelitas song and have not completely succumbed

[sterile jacinth]

It makes the most sense to be with the evidence presented

[lethal burrow]

And statues too

[twin dragon]

They aren't very complex

[twin dragon]

The evidence presented states it has been built around keeping gms sealed

[unique canopy]

The Cauldron and Exhaust Organ were created as massive cremation furnaces to deal with all the silk experiments happening in Whiteward, which itself was created in the Conductors' era

[frigid belfry]

yeah

[lethal burrow]

what's your point? I never stated that they were super super complex or anything.

You have this idea almost that the citadel grew substantially in size after the conductors, but it didn't as far as we're aware it only grew more decorative

[sterile jacinth]

I’m not arguing against that but I’m saying the trap aspect could be that they built it so gms would like it only to reveal that it is indeed a trap

[twin dragon]

Also weavenest atla as a whole indicates that they've tried multiple stuff to try and keep hear seal/seal

[lethal burrow]

Logic dictates that grandmother silk would have noticed the structures building, especially considering its presence directly beneath the cradle

[twin dragon]

No?, im saying that it wouldn't have made much sense to be built when gms was around

[twin dragon]

Exactly why im saying her being around during its construction is unlikely

[lethal burrow]

Well, we know that it was the citadel that's the reason she's asleep and there's no indication of something else putting her to sleep so I think it's fair to infer that the Citadel is what made her go asleep and because it was a big thing that had to be constructed, it's fair to also say that she was aware of its creation, and therefore she was tricked

[sterile jacinth]

I think they just lied about why they were making it to her

[twin dragon]

there's no evidence of her being aware of its creation

[frosty gate]

I mean, I don't disagree with this, but they're still haunted, Karmelita just made it so they resisted for a long time

[sterile jacinth]

They built their web and disguised it as a gift

[frigid belfry]

the citadel was built to keep gms sealed, the weavers had alreayd began to lull her to sleep, but they created the citadel to perpetuate this, they also experimented with trapping or getting rid of her (eva, snare, bells)

[twin dragon]

Its not like she was gonna wake up IMMEDIATELY after being weakened and being put to sleep, weavers had a shit ton of time

[lethal burrow]

OK, but where are you getting that they put her to sleep beforehand?

I don't understand where that's indicated in any way through throughout all the game

[frigid belfry]

widow cutscene

[frigid belfry]

widow cutscene

[lilac hedge]

The cinematic cutscene where you see weavers plaging harps

[lethal burrow]

that makes no sense with the dialogue though,

[frigid belfry]

elaborate

[lilac hedge]

To keep her asleep yk

[lethal burrow]

you have to completely and utterly ignore the dialogue that is in direct conversation with that cut scene for your interpretation to make any sense unless I'm missing something

[sterile jacinth]

I interpreted that as gms making them play for her

[twin dragon]

That's like, the reason why everything in pharloom happens as it does

[frigid belfry]

so you are telling me a fully awake gms, watched the weavers build the citadel, lull her infront of her eyes, over the span of years

[lethal burrow]

everything in pharloom does not happen because they put her to sleep before making the citadel specifically

[twin dragon]

Plus, weavenest atla having other failed alternatives to either seal her or keep hear sealed

[lethal burrow]

I don't think the citadel emits a passive lulling aura around its stones that was persisted as it was being built

[frigid belfry]

the bells, the songs, all of it was made for that purpose

[sterile jacinth]

The first part I think so. I think she thought they were making her a gift. I think the lulling to sleep was fast and a huge surprise and betrayal

[lethal burrow]

I don't think the spell to put her to sleep took years

[frigid belfry]

it didnt happen suddenly, all the bells and pilgrims didnt suddenly activate, we know this for a fact

[lethal burrow]

I think the citadel probably took a bit and then she was put to sleep in like a few minutes tops

[twin dragon]

Oh so the fucking weavers built all sorts of artifacts and made a religious cult to very obviously keep her mother asleep, BEFORE putting her wrathful mother to sleep?

[sterile jacinth]

I think those were built after to sustain the song rather than start it. To keep her to sleep rather than put to sleep

[frigid belfry]

yeah thats what im saying lmao

[lethal burrow]

no.

But I think the weavers built all sorts of artifacts and made a religious cult to keep her mother asleep before putting their mother to sleep

[twin dragon]

Ok now im just lost

So you're telling me, this obsessive mother, a prideful god

[half zenith]

Addition to the “Zote is son of Greyroot” theory: What if the reason Zote is so narcissistic and carries that title is because his host was a vessel that made it to Pharloom, who actually was The Mighty, and Zote can’t possibly live up to that kind of epic legacy

[lethal burrow]

lost nubbit new silk song boss

[sterile jacinth]

Zote is a loreless idiot

[half zenith]

He truly is

[twin dragon]

Was gonna let her daughters build an entire megaconstruct around her being asleep (they didn't even know it would work at that point)

[valid coral]

We're trying to find lore in a shitpost version of the knight

[sterile jacinth]

He has too much voice to cry suffering we gotta make him shut up

[lethal burrow]

If you want to not have a conversation and have me act like you're having now and it is just as bad faith then I'm gonna do this:

I'm going to accuse you of thinking grandmother silk has foresight for unknown reasons and therefore accuse you of thinking she's a wyrm which I'm going to call out as false and ask why you even think in the first place

[twin dragon]

What...

[lethal burrow]

yeah

This is the type of thing I'm dealing with right now I think

[twin dragon]

Why do you think that way...

This kinda seems like projecting in some way

[unique canopy]

I'm not trying to relitigate the "did the pilgrims worship GMS" debate from yesterday, but given what we know of higher beings as a whole and pale beings specifically, why would GMS be satisfied with just the Weavers glorifying her, especially when she was the one who told them that they were divine children in the first place? Why would she be surprised by her divine children building a citadel to bring in lesser bugs to glorify them all?

[lethal burrow]

The point though is that I don't know why you assume grandmother silk would have some sort of omnipotent knowledge of what all of this is for

[twin dragon]

She's known to be obssesive

[grim geode]

does anyone have all of the ingame references to the weavers that set up the weavenests and the silk skill spots? working on my weaver oc's lore and need to figure out everything known about the other weavers, especially the Abyss one, to decide how she would have interacted with them

[lethal burrow]

I know some friends who had clingy exes they couldn't see the future

[valid coral]

Also if she did know why didn't she clear the fuck out the moment she saw the snare runes

[twin dragon]

Plus, would the weavers design and entire megaconstruct around a plan that they didn't even know would work or last while their possesive and manipulative mother was around?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think that’s what they’re claiming

[half zenith]

I mean there’s that one “Zote is a Nosk” fic and we love it

[lethal burrow]

The moment she saw the snare runes, she was probably in the snare runes getting snared

[lethal burrow]

they're claiming she was somehow aware of the purpose of the citadel before it finished.

I don't know why they think this

[twin dragon]

Like c'mon its very obviously stated numerous time in the game, that the big ass citadel is a big ass cage specifically made around her being asleep

[valid coral]

Zote is a shitty nosk I love it

[sterile jacinth]

Look at the Eva dialogue. Most of the evidence suggests the weavenests were made after gms was asleep as a sort of backup. I’d also just look at weaver lore as a whole lol

[twin dragon]

Im not claiming that

[lethal burrow]

If you've read what I've said, then you know I'm not disagreeing with that so I don't know why you say this in the first place

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re claiming the citadel was built after she was asleep. Not that she knew of it’s purpose (which is not what I’m arguing)

[lethal burrow]

Then re-illustrate your point cause there's clearly miscommunication I guess

[twin dragon]

Isn't your whole thing that "gms was around when citadel was around"

[grim geode]

I mean more like any glimpses of their individual personalities I could get, so basically I was hoping there would be a doc or something of all the references made to each individual weaver

[lethal burrow]

Well, that's just true. she's around when it's around regardless what existing does not make the other not exist

[twin dragon]

how the hell is it true

[lethal burrow]

well, she currently exists and so does the citadel so one of them existing doesn't make the other not exist

[sterile jacinth]

The only real individual weavers we meet are first sinner widow and Herrah and they’re all pretty unique cases. Weavers as a whole have a reputation for being sneaky and entitled and honestly kinda jerks

[lethal burrow]

This is a weird tangent, but I don't know how to not defend this. This is like basic stuff.

[sterile jacinth]

Not saying your oc needs to be this way lol that’s just how they come off in the lore

[twin dragon]

Isn't your whole thing that "gms was active, conscious and ruled pharloom around when citadel was around"

are you purposefully misintepretating my point?

[lean temple]

Well I'm not reading all of that but happy Scoot published his findings

[twin dragon]

I deadass did not want to see you in bad faith but this is too much

[lethal burrow]

I think for some period of time during the stone time of the citadel, the answer to that is that it's more likely to me than the Weaver's having put her to sleep prior and then building the citadel well also continuing to keep her asleep.

[lethal burrow]

It's really good stuff

[lean temple]

I'll read it when I have time

[lethal burrow]

I don't know what your point is it feels like it's changed three times so i'm sort of losing track

[lone folio]

Oh? What kind of findings?

Where can I read it?

[lean temple]

It's like wayyy above

[twin dragon]

I'm arguing that the citadel existed after the weavers put gms to sleep

[lone folio]

Alright

[twin dragon]

And only posteriorly

[lethal burrow]

#sk-lore message

[edgy nebula]

ok, back, was taking a shower

[lethal burrow]

OK right so let me let me just get this straight, you think that and then your evidence for that is the widow cut scene so I guess the main thing I wanna know is how you square the dialogue that is before and after that cut scene with the cut scene itself because they seem to directly contradict your interpretation

[lean temple]

Thank you

[lethal burrow]

Or at least that's how I interpreted it but there's probably there might be another way of seeing it, which is what I'm asking about

[sterile jacinth]

Would you mind bringing up the dialogue ?

[twin dragon]

I've never mentioned the cutscene myself

[lone folio]

This?

[lethal burrow]

oh well, then I guess what's your evidence or at least? What makes you think that the Weavers put her to sleep before beginning the whole Citadel plan

[twin dragon]

Im basing off of the fact that the entirety of the citadel was designed around her slumbering state, and weavenests had several attempts at keeping her asleep, signifying that the citadel wasn't the first thing that came to find

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but that's a slightly old version. The one I linked is a bit more updated with like some corrections, I think it's mostly minor stuff, but you know

[lethal burrow]

It's not the first thing they came up with, but it's the first thing they came up with that worked, isn't it?

[lone folio]

Oh I didn't notice the newer one

[grim geode]

no they aren't.. physically meet in the flesh, yes, but I believe people have found names to some of the weaver statues that gift you the silk skills and whatnot. that's what I'm talking about. I specifically need as much info as I can find on the one in the abyss, I believe named Absolom?

[twin dragon]

Like would they start building the citadel KNOWING exactly where they would seal her?

[edgy nebula]

@sterile jacinth starting with you, what do you think

[lethal burrow]

I was gonna but then they said it wasn't actually something they had as their point so I don't see the point in doing that right now

[sterile jacinth]

While I agree with its purpose I rather think it was built as a trap. I think gms knew of its existence but was lied to about it’s purpose

[twin dragon]

again, nothing indicating that

baseless

[lethal burrow]

Now that you mention it, I do wonder when the cradle itself was constructed

[sterile jacinth]

Aaah ok. The lore from the idols and what the weavers give you is probably your best bet

[twin dragon]

It's probably very very old

[lethal burrow]

because she was definitely bound at the cradle so like... OK I if if it's the same stone as the old citadel, I think I have slam dunk

[twin dragon]

Or maybe not even part of the citadel

[twin dragon]

Mind you its connected to the surface

It can be a cave system perfectly

[unique canopy]

If the Citadel was built before she was sealed, then the Cradle would've been something like her personal quarters or throne room or whatever equivalent she wanted, and then they sealed her when she was there.

[lethal burrow]

This is true, but I don't see the connection

[sterile jacinth]

I think Karak fell as the citadel was being built. I think gms was lulled to sleep afterwards. I think Karak as a nation predates the Skarr kingdom under Karm and Verdanias fall

[twin dragon]

then climb up

[lethal burrow]

How is the cradle having a hole to the surface connected to her being bound? I assume you mean something to do with the nameless town, but you're gonna have to be more explicit for me

[edgy nebula]

so you think it was meddled with by gms/the weavers?

[twin dragon]

It could be very well where she resided, or where she came from, as we know that she didn't create pharloom and came later

[unique canopy]

Easiest place to trap someone by surprise is the one place you know they'll return to, and the most obvious place for her to want to be while still awake is at the top looking down over all

[sterile jacinth]

Yea. They might have deliberately stopped their river by building the citadel. I think they fought an army led by gms and her weavers

[lethal burrow]

I really have to look at the architecture because if it's Weaver or something else or citadel or what really matters... if it's golden embellished adorn Citadel I think it's safe to say it used to be stone citadel as well

[unique canopy]

Which architecture, the nameless town?

[twin dragon]

Mind you they had access to the cradle since they used her silk

Like the elevator n all is a thing

[edgy nebula]

sounds fair, why do you think khann died on his throne and why there didnt seem to be any struggle/weaver signs in karak then?

[lethal burrow]

Though not the main point of the video this video makes a compelling argument that the water came from the tower or at least came through the tower from above https://youtu.be/JqICEa37C88?si=Kd0djqiWEyE10_Km

[lethal burrow]

No the cradle

[sterile jacinth]

The river drying slowly killed them. A cruel end for a warrior kingdom

[edgy nebula]

yeah the river explicitly comes from the top of the tower

[lethal burrow]

OK, I'm gonna go take a shower if nobody has gotten cradle screenshots by the time I'm back. I'm doing it myself.

-# But I'm also very tired so I don't want to so I'd appreciate it.

[sterile jacinth]

Alr I have to go yall have fun

[lethal burrow]

right so the fay is is probably canon as heck

[edgy nebula]

Yeah but if the weavers fought him why would he die on his throne and why would there be no struggle?

[lone folio]

alright after reading everything it all seems very.. intresting

[lethal burrow]

Tell me about it so I remember to hear your thoughts when I'm out

[twin dragon]

Or it could be that, yk, the cradle was built after sealing her aswell

[lone folio]

this is basically what i was thinking about a couple of days ago when i thought about the greyroot and white lady being very similar and then remembering a similar situation with pale stag though i didnt put the pieces together as well as this

[sterile jacinth]

I’m not entirely sure. Maybe they realized they couldn’t fight anymore and retreated home to die

[edgy nebula]

might just be the fuzzy karak timeline striking again

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[edgy nebula]

if anyone meets tc they really need to ask about karak or something 💔

[twin dragon]

The entire arch is designed around the cocoon

[edgy nebula]

your point has been taken, now for @cedar skiff, what do you think happened to karak

[unique canopy]

The terminus room and surrounding duct passages were built after, because they're the same overall design as the Underworks and the side passage ducts in the choral chambers. But the cradle as a whole is mostly stone with a few platforms.

[twin dragon]

But does that mean that the citadel was built before the weavers sealed gms?

[twin dragon]

The lower part is mostly new-conductor design, obviously since they stole silk from gms so they would've had to accomodate it somehow

[unique canopy]

Honestly I think it's ambiguous whether the original stone citadel was built before or after GMS was sealed, but given GMS' nature and the location of the cradle itself it wouldn't be outlandish for the original stone citadel to have built during her rule.

[twin dragon]

I disagree, honestly, everything about the citadel is designed around maintaining the song

It coul've been a repurposed building but eh

[unique canopy]

Everything about the modern gilded Citadel is, yes

[twin dragon]

No, even the old, undecorated one

As pious isamor states

[tepid mountain]

It was built to maintain a song, but is there anything indicating that GMS knew the nature of the song they were wanting to maintain?

[twin dragon]

It's not just about gms knowing, it's location, artifacts, and predicting that the song would work

Like they've tried several times to keep her sleeping with what is found in weavenest atla, and it seems like the citadel wasn't their first idea

and afaik weavenests are post-gms

anyways im hella tired discussing this

[unique canopy]

The main thing that makes me think GMS was awake for the stone Citadel is First Sinner. Her dialogue solely blames GMS for lying to them. She does not mention her sisters negatively at all. If her sin was a transgression against her sisters by revealing the divine lie being fed to the pilgrims, then she would've been sealed by her sisters and she would be mad at them. Instead her ire is directed solely at GMS, which to me implies that she found out while GMS was still awake and it was under GMS' direction that First Sinner was bound, which in turn spurs the rebellion.

Then she was sealed, the Citadel was repurposed to keep her asleep, and it eventually became gilded under the Conductors after that.

[spark valve]

The symbol on fs’s cage is GMS’s sleeping form

She was asleep

[twin dragon]

The slab wouldn't exist, and the architecture FS is sealed in is weaver architecture

[silk dirge]

also i never actually noticed fs is actually in a massive cage

like i thought it was just a big ball or smth

nah its like a giant version of how hornet was brought to pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Idk where the idea that FS isnt pissed off by the weavers too comes from

[spark valve]

A silk rune cage, which is also a technique pioneered by weavers (ironically potentially fs herself)

[twin dragon]

holy shit, it's YOU!

[silk dirge]

also another reason why first sinner is probably a dream if you tried fighting her in the real world shed fucking collapse

[sinful nimbus]

Niche microcelebrity

[silk dirge]

aint no way shes fighting after being in a rune cage that long

[spark valve]

It’s definitely a dream yeah

[twin dragon]

she's a literal mummy in the real world

[lone folio]

Well first of all i honestly dont see much issues with this. the "sylphean" connection is something that hasnt even crossed my mind and i might even start using it sometimes when talking with others since it seems very ✨ fancy ✨ instead of saying "pale". Oh yeah also in religion and beliefs and folklore and media and such souls and spirits are shown to be cold which is kind of what we are seeing with pale ore, afcourse anything outside of the game world could be seen as unimportant but HK does take ideas from religion and stuff so it could strenghten the connection a bit. Otherwise i will continue thinking about this and try and find some more things to mention. these findings are honestly really good and could be useful in future theorizing!

[twin dragon]

Naturally she's more pissed by the liar than by the people that actually fell for it

Mainly because she fell for the lie aswell

[tepid mountain]

But if the weavers are the ones that locked her up, then she’d be pissed at them too.

[edgy nebula]

hey star do you think khann fell before or after the citadel was constructed, or like, inbetween

[twin dragon]

who says she isn't

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really think we have enough information to know when Khann died

[lone folio]

or hes hibernating

[edgy nebula]

i feel like we have enough evidence, it's just that the evidence is conflicting to the point it's personal preference on which you believe

[twin dragon]

Add "when coral kindgom fell" to the frequently discussed topics in this channel

Because it's gonna resurface at some point

[tepid mountain]

I was mostly thinking about Star’s “where the idea that FS isn’t pissed off by the weavers too comes from.”

[edgy nebula]

carrying this entire topic on my back cause i keep bringing it up cause im curious only for it to go literally nowhere

[twin dragon]

She's directing her rage towards the liar yes

She fell for it at one point

Doubt she'd think her sisters are to blame if they think that what she said sounds like lunacy

[tepid mountain]

Related: is it ever stated how FS finds out about the lie? Or if she was even the first one to find out?

[twin dragon]

Shes the first prisoner in the slab soo

And it is theorized that she kept historical records due to her weaving runes

[lone folio]

this can connect to a popular theory that FS is atla who is known as "the weaver of time", the time part could mean history

not sure how much i believe in the theory but its not a bad one

[tepid mountain]

I guess I just had a thought that she might not have been the first to find out, but just the only weaver that wanted to reveal the secret to the rest of the kingdom, and that’s why she was locked up.

[timber pond]

She is not, but she exhibits similar tendencies.

[pseudo raptor]

Notes on Needolin:

• Translator? - Hornet can understand the Skarrs through it, but you don't get any dialogue/thoughts if the Mottled Skarr merchant falls asleep vs when he sings along, it requires input.
• Mind reader? - Cradle Lace just stands taut and silently under the Needolin, but there are words anyway. Notably, she is made of Silk entirely.
• Shared songs - Pondcatcher Reed, Pavo, and Frey use the same set about serving in Bellhart, and so do the snail shamans have their own set. The snail shamans hold onto their facade as 'just a simple bug' in the song, and personally I don't think Frey is as altruistic as the song suggests.
  I think the Needolin is some wacker version of dream nail where the reads aren't always truthful.

[lean temple]

It's clearly a DN equivalent gameplay wise

Even the dialogue pop up is reused

[pseudo raptor]

Yeah, I'm comparing them because of that

[sinful nimbus]

Well the things the dream nail read also weren't always truthful

Which makes sense both of these are the words of the bug you are mind-reading

[pseudo raptor]

I don't mean objectively truthful but from the heart truthful if that changes anything? Honest is the word I was looking for

Like dream nailing Willoh and it's thoughts about eating the Knight while I feel like the Needolin effect would not give that

[empty salmon]

i like nkg

[muted lantern]

So what do y'all think the effects of void sickness would be? In the sense of what bugs experienced before becoming black tear stained corpses?

The void has some thematic ties to their regrets? Do you think that regrets would resurface, or made more prominent in their mind? A sort of increase in their woes that draws them toward the release from emotion and fear that the void offers? The tower of love guy also talks about becoming as one with the collector, do you think the collector was always sentient, or did it become so because of the feelings and thoughts imprinted on it by the tower of loves keeper? Would a symptom of the void be having your own sense of self muddled? Having trouble differentiating yourself from the void creature that afflicted you?

Its a lotta vagueness around it, but I'm curious as to the nature of it in canon as it would impact my own headcanons

[dawn sluice]

death

void leaking out of your body

being hollowed out from the inside

[muted lantern]

I'm asking more about the lead up to the death lol

Mostly curious on the psychological and spiritual effects rather than the physical

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re dead

[dawn sluice]

it can whisper and talk to you apparently

the light-house keeper turning off the light because of it's influence

[sterile jacinth]

You might get an overwhelming feeling of emptiness like what we see in the abyss lore tablets

[pseudo raptor]

Unfortunate that voided enemies can't be needolin'd

[muted lantern]

The abyss tablets seem to imply the void grants a freedom from emotion and fear, I'm curious how the ties to regrets feed into that, does it draw your regrets to the surface, so you are more likely to give in to escape them?

[sterile jacinth]

That could be the case

[dawn sluice]

it's odd how it works

i wonder though

do you have to physically interact with void to be infected

[muted lantern]

Mostly headcanon, but I think it would be really interesting for hornets exposure to the abyss to draw her own regrets back up and open old wounds, that shed have to contend with the guilt of her past with killing the vessels, as well as her regret about the damage she caused to pharloom in an attempt to free herself from the shackles of divinity. Having to make peace with her regrets to survive the affliction. But I do try to keep my headcanons at least canon compliant generally, so I'm curious if this kind of arc would be even possible in canon (for ease of discussion let's assume the dip into the void after the flower fades has some lasting effect and ghost didn't just siphon it out of her.

[pseudo raptor]

Garmond please answer our survey on your experience with getting voided before dying

[muted lantern]

Curious to know what y'all think

[dawn sluice]

it seemed like he somehow gained clarity after you beat him up

despite the void still being ever present inside him

[fast hinge]

What if elder hu was part of shakras clan, he has similar clothing plus he has balls around neck

[muted lantern]

I like to think the void didn't take him completely and hornet killing him spared him being fully consumed

[dawn sluice]

that explains why zaza isnt in pieces

[muted lantern]

I think it's possible, the neck orbs look a lot like shakras master, tho tbf a lot of backer characters resemble silksong characters, which also may e accidentally implies some of the karak warriors somehow ended up in hallownest.

[dawn sluice]

a lot of things somehow ended up in hallownest

[fast hinge]

Yeah, maybe he was on Journey or he was exiled, or he died in battle somewhere close to hollownest because he don't he lower part of body so maybe somebody kill him

[timber pond]

I think void might represent another thing Unseen like regrets. Radiance, Nightmare heart, Lifeblood ,Unn, Silk. They all Represent something we cant see.

Much like real myth

[dawn sluice]

light is very VERY visible

[timber pond]

Metaphorically not literally

There is still a metaphorical aspect to the higer beings , its just that that aspect manifests

[fast hinge]

what if next game is about hollow knight, because in ending delicate flower, is hollow knight and hornet meet again because ghost destroyd godhome,and become shade lord

[timber pond]

Radiance "remember" Unn "passive/Peace" Nightmare heart is also "remember", But in a sense, Moreso using that to "perpetuate". Lifeblood is "Choice" . the Void is "regret". Silk is "rememberance/longing"

[timber pond]

My prediction is that he also got captured at some point

[lone folio]

Oo

Interesting idea i like it

Not sure if its true or not but it's interesting

[timber pond]

This morese ties into the inate natures of the powers each being uses. and Thus shapes How they exist in the world

Its like a Chicken or the egg situation

[sterile jacinth]

That is a cool theory

[timber pond]

Was their power theirs first? or did it Mold them?

[fast hinge]

I think that's possible because there is a possibility he stayed in hollownest and he was kidnapet or he was on Journey trying find something he can do because now hes free he can finnaly do whatever he wants

[sterile jacinth]

Hollow? Captured by who?

[fast hinge]

Idk it just theory

[muted lantern]

I like that a lot

[timber pond]

This is an essential question to ask If we want to understand higher beings. because if its the first, then they are origin of something grander, if it is not then they attained that somehow THROUGh something grander.

[muted lantern]

kinda representing the fear of the unknown? kinda reminds me of the beast from over the garden wall

[sterile jacinth]

The origin of higher beings is very unclear I think

[muted lantern]

I fucking love over the garden wall

[timber pond]

City of Steel Might have Business with him if they were ever at all involved in Kingsmoulds.

[wide mauve]

yeah true

[sterile jacinth]

What’s the use of teaching a vessel to deal with kingsmoulds?

[muted lantern]

It seems like they were more populated during the time of the ancient civilization, as they refer to themselves as higher, as well as the shade cloak beast being called a higher being in the files (yes yes i know filenames arent canon but they still provide minor insights into the devs thought process, even if it's just something as simple as, "hey this guys kinda like a goomba lmao")

[timber pond]

Yeah Void Posses the question of if the Substance was shaped FIRST or if the ones who live in the world SHAPE the substance

[wide mauve]

associated with the pale kings regrets (vessels). hornets regrets (silk and soul fiasco). and either jiji or the hunter or both call void regrets so

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but their origins are still unclear and something I don’t think we’ll ever really get an answer to

[lone folio]

Oh yeah with this idea in mind is there a chance ANY bug can be born sylphean 🤔 like is there a chance of a sylphean pilgrim appearing? Or do the requirements for being born or becoming sylphean different? I wouldn't think so if there are sylphean slugs and cloverstags.

[muted lantern]

a black oil made of lost souls that feeds his eternal life

(still talking about the beast)

[wide mauve]

wait whats sylphian exactly. just pale being related or something else

[fast hinge]

I think it was like this
Void creat light and light become radience and radience creat moth, like god creat humans and moth creat live and soul and after that they creat world and everthing else

[timber pond]

One Theory Could be that Higher beings are created like the Lord of shades by enough Bugs "focusing" on an aspect of the world. this would explain why pale beings want devotion, because its likely to evolve them.

[muted lantern]

(resending this message, bc i wanna hear others thoughts on the potential of something like this being possible in canon, or if its purely the realm of headcanon) Mostly headcanon, but I think it would be really interesting for hornets exposure to the abyss to draw her own regrets back up and open old wounds, that shed have to contend with the guilt of her past with killing the vessels, as well as her regret about the damage she caused to pharloom in an attempt to free herself from the shackles of divinity. Having to make peace with her regrets to survive the affliction. But I do try to keep my headcanons at least canon compliant generally, so I'm curious if this kind of arc would be even possible in canon (for ease of discussion let's assume the dip into the void after the flower fades has some lasting effect and ghost didn't just siphon it out of her.

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. We just don’t know

[wide mauve]

i personally just think we can assume creation of higher beings and substances are unknown as mostly unimportant to the story

[lone folio]

If you go upp a bit you will see that in responding to a message of mine that is responding to a message that explains that stuff, sylphean seems to just be when a bug is pale

[sterile jacinth]

That would be really cool. And especially if it’s explored alongside lace and her relationship with void and regret

[wide mauve]

kk thats what i thought from that but

[fast hinge]

Maybe they will trying control him

[fast hinge]

It can be possible,but it is just theory

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if hollow is still in hallownest. Maybe trying to salvage it. I’m think that’s what it and Hornet did for awhile

[timber pond]

I would agree If the Everbloom Didnt Exist. It is the Sole thing that draws attention to this. (for the most part, aside from Seer quote about The dream realm)

[fast hinge]

I think he trying find something he can do because he hes emotion plus he is free

[wide mauve]

in which way does it draw attention? dont remember my everbloom lore is it the description or white lady dialogue

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve heard a theory that the everbloom represents calmness and it repels void for that reason. Not sure

[timber pond]

Team Cherry Might be leaving things up to interpretation, But they CERTAINLY like setting up what i like to call "vital Mysteries"

[sterile jacinth]

I wish that poor guy the best. I hope they’re ok

[muted lantern]

Ye, that's what im considering exploring in my own writing, one thing im having trouble deciding is if hornet does have lasting effects from the void dip would laces be worse or less severe. lace definitely has a weird biology that might save her from the physical effects, but I wonder if the psychological would remain, especially with her greater level of exposure. she seems to have less regrets overall as shes pretty gung ho about plunging the whole kingdom into darkness to get back at her mother. I wonder if she still has void in her even after hornet cleansed her, did gms giving up her silk protect lace more? i guess this is all too headcanony for this chat but its something im definitely debating and i don't really know what other place to discuss it rather than amongst peeps who know the lore.

[fast hinge]

Yeah me too but i just realized something, the hk reality is dying because of void, godhome is dead hollownest is dead and pharloon is also dying

[muted lantern]

also symbolically it seems to have stuff in line with making peace with your regrets and your grief, as with zemer using it to allow herself to move on from not being able to save her lover.

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah the ending leaves a lot of questions. I have no doubt they both still have a lot of healing to do

[sterile jacinth]

Aaah yeah you’re right. Healing v giving up entirely

[wide mauve]

true that does tie in well with void being linked with regrets

[timber pond]

Well we just gotta look up the facts about it

1: It is called "The First Light"
2; Its From a land dedicated to growing it , and can seemingly only grow there (originally).
3: If the void has existed in this world as the oldest thing (or one of them) How could something like the ever bloom come about to repel it?

this Leads into me thinking about The mechanics of not only Void, but the rest of Similar "manifesting" substances, where they Descend or originate, and how they apply To Diffrent bugs.

[sterile jacinth]

Reality? Wdym? Like the fabric of reality?

Also Pharloom can be saved. That’s the whole point of act 3 lol

Or at least that’s what Hornet is attempting

[fast hinge]

Yeah, you can see what the void can do, it can literally kill or possess a higher being

[vestal swan]

1 white lady vague bs
2 no? They sprout as soon as you plant them
3 we still don't have the origin for anything

[wide mauve]

true it would make sense if the place everbloom comes from would be related to creation of pale beings

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think that’s fundamentally breaking the universe apart

[wide mauve]

but still i dont think that inherently means it is related

[fast hinge]

Maybe in dlc we will see what happened to pharloom after act 3

[wide mauve]

and it doesnt say the land is dedicated to growing it, it just says its there. also we know it grows in hallownest as it grows where you plant it as @vestal swan said

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt we’d get anything of Pharloom post act 3 but i agree it would be nice. I’d love to watch Hornet and laces relationship grow more

[craggy smelt]

DLC Act 4, yeeeah

[rough ingot]

maybe it will be like godseeker mode

[muted lantern]

Honestly for hollow I don't know what would happen to them in canon if etv is the canon ending. Hornet doesnt seem to make much mention or reference to them or wanting to get back to them, my best guess is that maybe they still passed away, maybe they were catatonic and are still recovering? its definitely possible they are just living in dirtmouth and hornet just didn't feel the need to mention them (or the intent is to not mention them to keep the canon ending vague which is probably most likely) As for headcanon I like the idea that they fell comatose after the etv ending, and maybe hornet can wake them with the elegy of the deep?

[wide mauve]

godseeker mode like thing could make sense where its a wholy different mode

[craggy smelt]

red memory mode

[wide mauve]

although i doubt it as cool as it would be

krattsong dlc where you play as kratt

[fast hinge]

It would be peak ngl

[rough ingot]

Red memory would be nice, you get to see The Hollow Knight’s life

[sterile jacinth]

Hmm maybe. If hollow is dead I’m glad they’re finally able to rest

[rough ingot]

dont people make jokes of using the soul snare on kratt and banishing him to the abyss with the Knight

[wide mauve]

personally i hope we get more elegy of the deep stuff generally. although i doubt well go back to hallownest

[rough ingot]

use it on the godseeker’s void covered corpse

[fast hinge]

It is just theory anyway

[craggy smelt]

a red memory area seems like the most plausible for the 'godhome' of Silksong, Hornet re-fighting all her past conquests
plus Vespa bonus boss (maybe others, like Kid Hollow Knight)

[wide mauve]

true

[rough ingot]

I also have a question about the Act 3 ending…

[timber pond]

The land of thier origin Is seemingly the only place they come from(yes they can grow otherwise, but we have no reason to belive there is another place). And yes, there isnt an "origin" But its implied. either Through "focus" or through Something else Like a Lineage. If Dreams and regrets come about through Focus, then that could simply be the origin of alot of things. a sort of "only as much Power as you believe it has" sort of thing

[muted lantern]

the one thing that holds me back from thinking they are dead is that we don't see their shade in sotv. again could be to keep things vague, but its why i like the idea of them being in a coma, cause it just makes a lot of sense to me considering how much psychological and physical damage they endured.

[rough ingot]

people say Void Given Focus, i personally dont think this is a good idea

[sterile jacinth]

Yea I feel like their shade would have been pretty prominent. I like the hc that they’re still around and trying to have a life for themselves

[muted lantern]

Oh god what about a ghost rematch where we play as hornet..

that would be brutal

[vestal swan]

Yes their place of origin is where they come from what
I don't know what all this about focus is but it has nothing to do with the flower

[rough ingot]

ghost ends up bowing at the end

[craggy smelt]

I don't want her to ever fight the Knight, because I don't want the Knight to lose to her

[craggy smelt]

forced to lose though, boo

[rough ingot]

knight doesnt have their shell anymore tho

we’ll be fighting the shade

[sterile jacinth]

That’s worse

Hornet is loosing that fight lol

[rough ingot]

void given form becomes absolute radiance of silksong

[vestal swan]

Hornets good at building stuff she can make them one

[rough ingot]

i dont think shell shards and the knight’s shell are the same stuff

[craggy smelt]

get Flick to do it
(that would suck so much)

[vestal swan]

It would take forever and it would fall apart as soon as they moved

[rough ingot]

also, are these created by the same being?

[muted lantern]

maybe we'd get a ghost fight and then a separate shade lord fight? ik ghost doesnt have much personality that we are shown due to them being kinda a blank slate, tho we do know they have a personality and a will due to void heart, personally i think etv characterizes them as someone who's very curious and finds excitement in challenge and battle, (kinda like lace to an extent?) so maybe a fight with ghost despite them caring about hornet would be like a friendly sparring match in the dream just for ghosts entertainment.

[wide mauve]

what are these?

[sterile jacinth]

“Hey can you construct a shell for my sibling”
void creature
“WHAT THE HELL IS THAT”

[rough ingot]

deals 4 dmg max lol

[rough ingot]

”ehhh, a small god of void i call my sibling”

[timber pond]

if You read my previous messages ,you would know im trying to determine a Chicken or the egg situation with Higher beings and thier Given "thing" they control. If its the egg, Then everblooms might Come from a being created out of a "belief" or "want" to repel Regrets, or "void" as we know it.

[vestal swan]

There's no chicken or egg situation because the chicken is not related to this egg

[craggy smelt]

maybe something like the Steel Masters pull TK out of the Void and compress them into a metal frame
Steel Knight
so you aren't really fighting them at their peak

[vestal swan]

Your statement that I replied to also made absolutely no sense

[muted lantern]

Hornet whips up a mask for ghost out of pale ore and then ghost detonates it with the force of a hydrogen bomb the second they enter.

[wide mauve]

yeah ima be real chief i do not know what you are saying

[sterile jacinth]

Forced into servitude again that’s rough

[craggy smelt]

Void Given Focus manifests
Flick: we're gonna need a lot of shell shards...

[rough ingot]

can you guys see the pics i sent?

[craggy smelt]

oh yeah

[wide mauve]

yeah i just dont know what it is since theres no context of where they appear

[rough ingot]

i genuinely have a question since not many people seem to notice the similarity

[craggy smelt]

maybe

[lone folio]

Flick solos if he has enough shell shards

[rough ingot]

The first is the silksong ending

the 2nd is the P5 button mashing

[lone folio]

He can do anything with enough shell shards

[vestal swan]

They are both TK

[rough ingot]

its a 4 hit combo

very rapid

[wide mauve]

which ending?

[vestal swan]

TK slashes radiance
TK slashes random tendrils

[rough ingot]

true ending

[muted lantern]

My general take is stuff like the void, the everbloom, and the lifeblood, are just natural forces of the world of like entropy, life, etc, and the gods like the shade lord, (maybe the lifeblood creature) are things that came later, with some being finding a way to focus the void, or lifeblood managing to evolve one of it's hosts into a god.

[wide mauve]

could be related. both could be shadelord / the knight so

[rough ingot]

Since shade lord shows up in both, i think its the,

[trail wagon]

Hey, everyone

[craggy smelt]

it's ambiguous as to whether TK can take their giant Shadelord form in Silksong
it only seems to appear briefly for an instant
the fact it appears at all is significant though

[rough ingot]

cuz the knight’s attack speed is bs

[wide mauve]

hey

[rough ingot]

actually they do assume it to save hornet from the void tendrils

[timber pond]

fine, in simple terms, a "Theory". bugs wanted a way to repel void, Their "focus" may have created a higher being that creates the everblooms. Much Like how regrets create Void itself if you believe that.

Im saying that things Like Dreams and how higher beings use them could also be defined by this if the it is indeed true.

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe it has quickslash lol

[rough ingot]

well

[muted lantern]

I think the slash is supposed to look similar. tho i still think whether etv or dnm is canon is meant to be vague.

[trail wagon]

I wanted to ask, does anybody know anything about this?

[rough ingot]

the shadelord is faster nonetheless

[trail wagon]

I've been told it's written by some editors

[lone folio]

He has like 27 tendrils

[rough ingot]

so

[wide mauve]

could be true but there is no evidence of this whatsoever. no information on the creation of higher beings has been given

[vestal swan]

Looks like fan art and probably doesn't go here

[trail wagon]

But I haven't heard anything from TC suggesting it's reliable to it's even remotely official

[vestal swan]

That is completely baseless, and also not how void works

[rough ingot]

the shadelord attack speed had the same combo as seen in silksong, the 2 claw marks

[lone folio]

He can slash multiple times a second and he also attacks pretty fast in dnm, attack speed isn't that important

[muted lantern]

not sure what this is

[craggy smelt]

we only see a brief flash of it, but mostly TK is in their 'Void Given Form' state from DNM

[rough ingot]

Its the same combo as etv

[lone folio]

I guess??

But that's not shade lord excatly

[timber pond]

Its bassed on the idea that if void is Liquid formed regret, then other things, like dreams, might have formed the same way.

[rough ingot]

and 2 atacks appearinn on the same frame

[lone folio]

He's attacking with shade not shade lord

[rough ingot]

i g2g guys

[muted lantern]

I think its definitely meant to look like what shade lord does in etv yeah. though the sprites are somewhat different they definitely are meant to look similar

[rough ingot]

it is the shade lord

[vestal swan]

You can't base it on that because that's not true?

[rough ingot]

watch in slo mo

[lone folio]

At this point I'm starting to think it's both at the same time somehow

[wide mauve]

we dont have real evidence for void being genuinely liquid regret. like? it could be. but extrapolating from something thats not proven is not really any basis for a theory

[vestal swan]

If that's how void worked it would be popping up all over the place

It would have been pouring out of the king the entire time he ruled hallownest

[timber pond]

this is why i said its based on that theroy.

[wide mauve]

void has relation to regret, and at least thematically represents regret, but in lore its clearly different from just regular regret

[lone folio]

Both should be canon and it seems like they are

[vestal swan]

That theory does not make sense

[trail wagon]

yeahhh

[vestal swan]

You're basing a theory on a theory that already doesn't add up with the canon

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re talking more about what it represents rather than its actual in game properties

[muted lantern]

I don't think void is literally regret, i do think it has thematic and maybe literal ties to regret, but i don't think thats the whole picture, its clearly something more complex than that, i compare it to the void in rain world.

[trail wagon]

Is Void some kind of remains of bugs?

That is left after they die

[muted lantern]

would you consider void to be related to regret at least?

it seems to have some thematic connections at least

[wide mauve]

void is at the bottom of the world. has some properties but thats basically all we know

[trail wagon]

That's not my theory or a theory at all, it's something I've heard

[vestal swan]

Void does not come from death or actual regrets or we would have seen it in a lot of different places in the first game

[timber pond]

I dont strictly believe it, but Jiji never refers to void itself, only regret.

[vestal swan]

The void tied to regret is jiji in the non-canon interaction

[wide mauve]

on a thematic level, void is related to death and regrets, but afaik void is just like any other substance and is just there

[muted lantern]

it is funny that its a little comparable to fossil fuels in that reading.

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's pretty clear, but some people presume it is a collection of what the dead bugs left after they died, because Jiji says something similar

[vestal swan]

The shade represents what would be a ghost for TK, which is actually what's attributed to regrets, because that's how spirits get left behind typically

[trail wagon]

Yeah I mean quite literally

[sterile jacinth]

Void is natural gasses confirmed

[rough ingot]

watch both in slow motion

[wide mauve]

the only way that works is if somehow the void all pools in the abyss after bugs die

[trail wagon]

It's her or somebody else saying "we all leave regrets after we die"

[rough ingot]

jiji

[lone folio]

I don't know man its too ambiguous for either to make perfect sense, either they are both canon or it's some sort of schrodingers cat or cats where both are equally as canon as they aren't or only one is canon but we don't get a confirmation which is probably the most likely option.

[trail wagon]

So basically it almost suggests everybody who dies becomes Void

[rough ingot]

and shade’s journal entry

[wide mauve]

anyone wanna hear my crackpot theory about void that has no real evidence backing it

[trail wagon]

Or at least becomes some component that later on makes up the void

[rough ingot]

yes

[vestal swan]

It's not ambiguous it's a bad reading of a line that's about a different subject

And then making up a bunch of things to go with it

[trail wagon]

it's Zote's saliva

[trail wagon]

Yeahah

[sterile jacinth]

Zote would never produce such a thing. He would best it instead

[trail wagon]

In fact Zote spit out the world

[rough ingot]

ive never played steel soul and not died in acid

[trail wagon]

And he chose to descent to the level of regular bugs

[trail wagon]

I'm not sure how is it related?

[rough ingot]

also, one strange zote theory is zote is related to greyroot, evidenced by shellwood nail, and GREY prince

[rough ingot]

jinn

[vestal swan]

JiJi in canon, never summons the shade.
In a very meta way your death mechanic ghost is your regret, it doesn't really get deeper than that because the interaction doesn't actually exist

[sterile jacinth]

Silly but I doubt it’s true

[muted lantern]

You don't think theres any narrative throughline between regret and void? Even though death in hk isnt canon, i feel that text around it is meant to tell us something and isnt to be entirely thrown out either, similar to peoples takes on the meaning of the coccoon, though hornet dying and waking up is not canon, the coccoon being formed after her death is meant to say something of what happens to her should she fail.

[lone folio]

Maybe I have chosen the wrong word.. I don't know man I hate ending discussions because they don't get anywhere and we don't learn anything new it's basically a waste of time in my opinion

[muted lantern]

and i mean jijis lines arent the only reference to void and regret,

[rough ingot]

there is more evidence then the vessels cloaks being silk…

[trail wagon]

I mean I haven't played Steel Soul enough to reach them too tbh, I just read all character dialogues on Wiki to refresh it

[vestal swan]

This isn't even about an ending what

[rough ingot]

steel soul Zi’s quest

[sterile jacinth]

I have never said that. I’ve never seen anyone say that either

[timber pond]

Even if it isnt "cannon" or whatever the diolouge dosent exist for no reason.

[rough ingot]

ccmaci’s vid

[wide mauve]

ok so hollow knight mentions the battle of the blackwyrm. wyrms are pale beings, pale beings are clearly related with soul. soul and void are very much opposites of eachother, with one being the soul within a bug and one being . while void that kills bugs if they come into contact. the whole point of the vessels is that they are a pale being pumped full of void so they are basically a union of void and soul. since soul comes from pale beings to some extent (see kingsoul) what if the blackwyrm is a wyrm that makes void

this is a crackpot theory and i dont actually really believe it as There Is No Actual Evidence

[muted lantern]

I havent actually done that, what info does it provide?

[rough ingot]

me neither lmao

[vestal swan]

What other lines are there that specifically tie void to regret?

[wide mauve]

thought of it before silksong and after silksong has come out pretty sure its 100% not true

[lone folio]

I think we have either moved on too far and I'm living in the past or it was never there and I'm schizophrenic

[trail wagon]

Btw it's quite literally the same thing Sula does

[rough ingot]

there is some optional voided boss

[wide mauve]

as the abyss clearly exists everywhere

[vestal swan]

Grey means old in universe

[trail wagon]

WHAT IF Sula and Jiji are the same species?

[rough ingot]

they could both be vassals of the steel souls?

[trail wagon]

And they're both vassals of steel beings

[vestal swan]

Vessel wings are biological products of having PK and white lady as parents

[trail wagon]

Yes, and they both would be murdered for touching the void btw

[lone folio]

Uhhh no.. Unless that wyrm is super regretful but it would be dead in that case

[vestal swan]

They look pretty different but that's not an issue, they are both vassals

[rough ingot]

More specifically white lady, Ccmaci’s 40 min long vid

[trail wagon]

So probably Jiji summoning the shade is not cannon indeed

[wide mauve]

ok youre right that its wrong but the regret point has nothing to do with it

i actively said i dont believe it. hence, crackpot theory with no evidence

[rough ingot]

blackwyrm created void crackpot theory i saw places

[muted lantern]

As i said, im only arguing its thematically tied, not literally, the refuse and regret line is what im referring to. Im aware it's referring to the regret of the vessel expiriments, again im arguing a thematic throughline not a literal void is regret angle. I think voids something a lot more complicated than that.

[lone folio]

Okay the regret part is a bit wrong since regrets aren't fully void so if it was super regretful it would be kind of voidy but not void

[rough ingot]

well, it is kind of, steel souls can manipulate void, and Jiji being able to pin down your regrets and summon the shade should be canon. The knight waking up on a bench probably isnt

[trail wagon]

To be honest I always interpreted this line as a metaphor

[trail wagon]

I mean Jiji doesn't seem to be afraid of the Masters punishing her

[rough ingot]

maybe a litle? I mean, the everbloom was referenced to mean benevolence

[trail wagon]

And Sula in Silksong is, because they know they will be killed for doing so

[vestal swan]

It's not though, people take one line really out of context when it basically only has a meta definition

[rough ingot]

shes doing her job, ish

[trail wagon]

I don't think it is

[vestal swan]

Nothing is ever said about how void is formed and it's definitely not regrets

[timber pond]

The Hunters Journal For shade at least , does so. Yes hunter might never "see" it or whatever. But what he says there is likely what he would say if he did see something like it.

[rough ingot]

maybe shes “released” or ran away

[vestal swan]

Because otherwise there would be more of it in other places

[rough ingot]

he says he wants to hunt in the abyss

[muted lantern]

I did say like 6 times that im not saying that, did you read my message fully?

[trail wagon]

Keep in mind Zi says Sula is now spoiled by the void, or whatever she says specifically

[sterile jacinth]

They’re speaking more about the themes around void rather than it’s in game properties

[rough ingot]

Ive never done the quest

[vestal swan]

I'm arguing with the concept that keeps getting brought up

[rough ingot]

i suck at the game lol

[sterile jacinth]

No I’m talking about someone in here

[trail wagon]

It also seems to be pretty much impossible. Zi suggests that the Masters have a power to "compress" even the HB

[wide mauve]

blackwyrm however could be related to the ancient civilization . i dont think its too much of a stretch to perhaps believe that the blackwyrm was a wyrm which instead of being related to soul, was instead a void counterpart. not neccesarily the creator of void, but the creator of ancient civilization. the walls and floors and large pit in hollow knights abyss is also very reminiscent of the wyrm corpse in kingdoms edge
again though, not enough evidence to have it be a valid theory imo

[lone folio]

Their antenna and legs are like the same and their head shape is somewhat similar so they are atleast related bug species

[rough ingot]

could just be a PV and Knight relationship, they look very different in adult and child forms

[trail wagon]

It seems the Masters might be the most powerful creatures in the universe tbf

[rough ingot]

well, if they can put the Shade Lord down, maybe…

[lone folio]

Maybe, they could also somehow grow the higher they get on the steel hierarchy

[trail wagon]

I'm actually pretty sure that's what it is a build-up for

[rough ingot]

the “masters” are used to dealing with an ununified void, possibly easier to control

[trail wagon]

I REALLY HOPE they plan to do so

It's a really cool plot twist

[sterile jacinth]

Quite the ambitious goal

[rough ingot]

Would be peak if hornet walked in to see that being chained, then it sees her and completely tears free

[trail wagon]

Yes

Just imagine what epic lore we might get out of that

[rough ingot]

The Shade Lord treats hornet like a sister, i mean, the ending is literally called Sister of the Void

[trail wagon]

A multiplayer game where you can play as an individual shade in a giant shade hive fighting against the Masters

[wide mauve]

Ok, quick run down of void for yall

• We do not know how void was made. All we know is its properties, which is that it is in some sense a hivemind. It also can poison and fill bugs if they come into too much contact with it. It has a draw towards soul, which is likely why pale beings are weak to it and why it kills bugs.
• Void is thematically linked to regrets. Not literally. We have no real evidence that regrets actually create void. Closest we get is hunters journal entry for shades

[sterile jacinth]

I interpreted that as referring to lace and Hornet

[lone folio]

Steel hierarchy goes something like: vassal -> confessor (better vassal) -> seer -> assassins (they could also be on the same level as seers) -> masters

[rough ingot]

Would be crazy fun

[trail wagon]

Yes, it seems like the Lord has the mind of the Knight

[muted lantern]

but yeah, void can't literally be regret. it would be an oversimplification of what it is, i think void is thematically tied to regret, but rather the opposite of it being regret itself, void is an absence of emotion, and a freedom and escape from ones own regrets and burdens, for better or for worse.

[rough ingot]

hence why we quite happily mash the attack button to end the radiance’s miserable life

[trail wagon]

It also has a mind but also doesn't

[wide mauve]

she literally is their sister as the shade lord, assuming voidheart was gotten, is unified under the knight

[rough ingot]

*** void given mind, the original dialogue for the Shade Lord statue in Godhome

[wide mauve]

yeah. hence why i said some sense. void is strange

[timber pond]

I think It makes it stronger. Much like How the Radiance being "remembered' and Pale beings having bugs "devoted' to them does.

[trail wagon]

But it got cut

[rough ingot]

because the knight already has a mind

[trail wagon]

I've heard some explanation and I freaking love it

[wide mauve]

i <3 void

[rough ingot]

also Jinn’s dialogue about the egg trade

[rough ingot]

i love the lore, its so juicy and i just want more

i want more of the knight too, and all we got was a 10 sec cutscene

[trail wagon]

So basically some YouTuber suggested that the void is like a carnivorous plant. It doesn't have a brain or consiousness, but it has an instinct

[lone folio]

Not sure if pale higher beings do need devotion actually. They don't seem to need it but the pale king just has it in his blood

[rough ingot]

who

[trail wagon]

Which one&

[rough ingot]

its natural for pale beings to want devotion, GMS

[sterile jacinth]

From what I’ve seen of void is it incredibly animalistic and the knight can control some of it

[rough ingot]

some line if u refuse to trade egs for geo

[trail wagon]

I don't care about the lore, I love the vold. It's so dark and juicy and buttery mhhhahahaahahaha

[sterile jacinth]

Ok ancient civilization

[wide mauve]

i wouldnt say its like a plant and more like very simple lifeforms. specially after silksong abyss. specially the gloomsac hunters journal dialogue

[rough ingot]

Yea, with them having to manually pacify pharloom’s void, or if its just really pissed that hornet dragged an angry grand mother silk into it

[trail wagon]

I mean she says she hates them but she has SOMEBODY to give them to who would love them, basically Jiji

[rough ingot]

and a bath for vessels

[wide mauve]

listen if i could vape void i would i dont care i love void

[sterile jacinth]

Yea I think it’s animalistic and ghost can control some of it at a time which is how it saves Hornet

[trail wagon]

How dare you call me ancient?!?!

[muted lantern]

I think the void is more of a source of regrets (again thematically not literally) of plans gone wrong, of lives cut short, of terrible choices made. as well as an escape from them, Its where things go to be free of their regrets, of their emotions, of their dreams. the void is making peace with what cannot be changed. I don't think it's good or evil, but i do think those burdened by regret are drawn to it. as the ancient civilization puts it in silksong: Erase our fear,
Eliminate our desire,
To suffer no more,
Void, cleanse us.

[lone folio]

Oh yeah gms.. So maybe they do but then like if they are pale and need devotion does pale stag also crave devotion??

[timber pond]

Sure they might not need it. But if "focusing" on the radiance makes her stronger in the dream realm, It might evolve them or make them stronger. Yes its baked into thier blood, But if so, What is the evolutionary reason for such a thing? i think its to metamorph, much like BArdoon sugests for the pale king.

[trail wagon]

I mean it's not necessarily an exact parallel, but something somewhat similar

[rough ingot]

Idk about pale stag

[trail wagon]

Gloomsacs also look like more of a plant to me tbh

[rough ingot]

but pale beings really want devotion, like GMS trashing at least 4 kingdoms

[rough ingot]

and a pain in the head

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I agree. Thematically it’s loss and pain and regret. I think the everbloom/delicate flower is thematically about healing

[lone folio]

Palestag is pale/sylphean just like the other pale creatures we get to see or hear of

[trail wagon]

not really

[trail wagon]

around the head ahahhaha

[wide mauve]

well put. agree fully

[trail wagon]

the suck your head in

[rough ingot]

right, like the traitor lord’s child. Also someone made a meme about Grey Mourner being the only bug able to stand up to the shade lord, the endless flowers

[rough ingot]

and say bye to ur silk if you dint have the everbloom

[trail wagon]

What is sylphean omg

[wide mauve]

pale related creature

[sterile jacinth]

You can’t kill me I need to give a flower to my love

[lone folio]

Just another word for pale basically

[trail wagon]

I'm starting to hate this term

[timber pond]

Yes this is true. But is also think, just like the same way Bugs can resist the haunting through thier strong mind. Regret can let the void in if given into alot easier. Much like how bugs Might be suceptible to the radiances infection if they strongly "Dream".

[rough ingot]

maybe a child of a pale creature, like Eva

[trail wagon]

Where is it from?

[wide mauve]

not neccesarily a pale being, but related to them

[rough ingot]

in pale court

[lone folio]

Specifically pale bugs and higher beings

[trail wagon]

wait what??? I didn't know

[sterile jacinth]

Pale court is a mod and not cannon

[rough ingot]

void covers your silk if u get hit, and eats like 2 spools

[rough ingot]

ik, but it sure loooks like fun

[trail wagon]

Doesn't it happen with the Everbloom too?

I mean it definitely does happen in the LL fight

[rough ingot]

not realky, it ends the void on ur spool

[trail wagon]

Ohhh I might've missed it

[rough ingot]

it prevents it from eating 2, i think when it flashes it keeps it from eating 2 to only eating 1

[wide mauve]

pale oil description. word also used in sylphsong. also a real word

[rough ingot]

yea, it surely hates me

[trail wagon]

ohhhhh

[rough ingot]

i killled way to many void masses without it

[trail wagon]

Thank you, I thought it was based solely off of the ability name and I started hating it because it felt like too big of a leap to assume this is a real term

[trail wagon]

Me too

[muted lantern]

The void seems characterized by the absence of emotion, of a kind of peace, but also a giving in. it's not evil, it just is, a force of nature. It feeds on soul, the source of someones being and emotions, and what presumably holds their regrets. what the ancient civ might not have fully understood, was that it doesnt simply erase the emotions and regrets it consumes, but is imprinted by them. The shades in the abyss go to rest in dnm because their regrets are laid to rest, that they werent able to stop the radiance, the purpose imprinted upon them. I think the void reacts so extremely to gms's being thrown into it because she has a great many regrets.

[wide mauve]

i thought the same thing first then looked it up so

i get it lol

[trail wagon]

I have an easier explanation

[sterile jacinth]

Oooh I like this :)

[trail wagon]

Void is when no mind to think

just blup blup blup blup blup blup in the black lake

[muted lantern]

go for it, im just spitballing.

[sterile jacinth]

I think that oversimplifies it and applies mostly to the vessels

[trail wagon]

like a jelly fish

ahahahahahahah

[lone folio]

I learned about it's importance from scoots pale analysis that's a very high upp in this channel

[trail wagon]

I think it pretty much applies to all creatures affected by it

[muted lantern]

Struggling not to reference rain world

[sterile jacinth]

Not saying it’s wrong I just think it’s an oversimplification

[trail wagon]

I'm not really versed in its lore, but I've heard there are some similarities

[sterile jacinth]

Fog canyon

[timber pond]

Yes. Now we are on the same page. So, If void cat act on The Impulse of ones regrets, then the other substances might function in the same way.

[wide mauve]

jellyfish is honestly a good parallel to void as they are

1. old as fuck
   and
2. kinda have a mind. but not really. but also they do? except they dont

[trail wagon]

Well perhaps, yeah, my comment was more of a joke ahahha

[trail wagon]

And also they can live eternally

Some of them at least, they can literally regress their aging

I've watched a video about it the other day, some jellyfish could literally become a polyp again

[muted lantern]

It just reminded me of the jellyfish in the net analogy thats core to rain worlds ascendant faith. Describing the samsara like cycle as a net and the jellyfish being the one to escape it because one must be like the jellyfish to escape the urges that tie you to the physical world "because the jellyfish does not try"

[trail wagon]

That's where they come from

[sterile jacinth]

I think the everbloom thematically represents healing and acceptance

Oh another indie game with ties to depression lollll

[trail wagon]

Also, isn't there some land where there's a lot of them?

[wide mauve]

the other substances dont have a mind of their own like void does
both soul and dreams are tied to specific bugs, not like how void is united under voidheart / shadelord
also. its a thematic parallel, that is not the same as a in universe fact of the lore. thematically, it does not make sense for soul or dreams to act that way

[muted lantern]

I agree, thats why hornet gets one after coming to understand why wl made the choices she made

[trail wagon]

also guys

no?

[lone folio]

Uhh no

[wide mauve]

no

[trail wagon]

I mean it's clear her body isn't steel

[vestal swan]

I don't know what kind of connection you're trying to make but I feel the urge to throw tomatoes

[trail wagon]

ahahahahahahah I'm sorry

[sterile jacinth]

Aaah yeah hornets own self reflection and healing journey. That’s thematically near the end of her character arc. Same with gray mourner finally accepting peace when her love is given the flower. Traitor child seems to heal as well but that’s more speculation

[trail wagon]

WHAT IF she came from the City of Steel?

[wide mauve]

my bf just picked a bunch of fresh tomatoes if you want some. alas they are green so i think they would cause bruising

[trail wagon]

Or at least somewhat related to it

ohhh nowh don't do thaaat :C

It's not a serious theory, just for funsies

[vestal swan]

I genuinely don't see a single similarity I don't know where you're going with this

[trail wagon]

But idk I just thought about that a little bit, I mean she comes from a land where there are a lot of delicate flowers

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re joking

[trail wagon]

And it's pretty much the only thing that can be used to fight against the void

[wide mauve]

she is from the same place as everblooms. white lady says this about the everbloom "Far it travelled to reach this place, brought by one beloved, fair knight of lands serene"

[vestal swan]

Modern lighting:

[trail wagon]

huh?

[vestal swan]

A lighthouse

[sterile jacinth]

Yea. The only thing (thematically) to fight against unresolved pain is to heal from it

[tepid mountain]

F250 high beams.

[lone folio]

Throw mossberries instead, they come with the toxins

[timber pond]

Dreams are an Imprint OF a bugs memory on the Physical world im pretty sure. I think the seer mentions that. So They kind of do have "a mind of thier own" when coagulated into the Subconscious realm , Which i think is what we define as "the Dream Realm". Soul can seemingly be shaped to Travel memory ,an dill admit it doesn't really act independent of the weilder. as it does for silk. Void Thematically overpowers soul in thsi sense because that "memory" is often heavily tied to regret.

[sterile jacinth]

Lmao I forgot about that thing

[vestal swan]

Given how TK gets abilities throwing poison into the lake of void would make it stronger

[trail wagon]

Oh you're right...

[wide mauve]

the shadelord versus my 10000 lumens heavy duty flashlight

[trail wagon]

Why didn't Hornet just use lumafly lamps?

Or silken fly lamps*

[vestal swan]

Dumb

[wide mauve]

is she stupid? is there a lore reason for this

[timber pond]

It likely Only Subdues it. like , if i took a lantern into the abyss ocean, it wouldnt be strong enough

[sterile jacinth]

Just ash baby the most powerful thing in universe lmaooo

[muted lantern]

I think it's kinda a making peace with regrets for both lovers, accepting what happened, that grey mourner couldn't save her lover, that the traitors child couldn't be there to prevent ze'mer from being lost to her grief.

[wide mauve]

oop. no baby

[trail wagon]

Yeah, it doesn't kill it, it just removes the tentacles

[wide mauve]

apologies mods 🙏 i will repent in the underworks

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I agree completely. I can’t believe we got another indie game with themes of depression /silly

[timber pond]

I think it just pushes them below the surface.

[trail wagon]

I mean yeah, I didn't mean completely removes them, what I was trying to say is that the void is still there

The lake is still black

[timber pond]

IN silksong we can distinguish "the tentacles" from the water as well. so.

[sterile jacinth]

Thematically it could be just pushing your pain away instead of actually taking steps to heal

[vestal swan]

I was about to say I can't believe this game doesn't have a desperate failed mother kidnapping children as one of the storylines but I forgot that's GMS

[trail wagon]

Oh

Also, what's up with the Weavers collecting the void?

[vestal swan]

All of the weavenests were attempts to deal with GMS, at one point that was an option for them

[timber pond]

Its a weavenest. so likley an Anti GMS plot that didnt go anyhwere

[trail wagon]

Yes

I think that too, but HOW?

[vestal swan]

They have silk powered lamps and robots to do the grabbing

[timber pond]

They just diped jars in the abyss

[trail wagon]

It doesn't seem like you can just take some cup and fill it with the void

[sterile jacinth]

They threw a ton of shit at the wall. They were desperate. It’s why they ran. Just another failed plan

[trail wagon]

Does it work like that?

[trail wagon]

You're right though but we don't see any specific robots that would do that

[vestal swan]

Well there's raw void and there's tendrils

[timber pond]

I mean Pale king had to make Kingsmoulds and Wingsmoulds somehow

[wide mauve]

tbh you probably can. we dont really know if the weavers even made it out of the abyss

[vestal swan]

they all fell in

[trail wagon]

what's raw void?

[vestal swan]

But also those robots shoot lasers that would be a pretty good deterrent for the void trying to touch a weaver

[trail wagon]

you're right too

[wide mauve]

you can just make a cookie cutter and use it on void to make a bunch of vessel as far as we know

[timber pond]

Remember how i said theres the liqud and the tentacles?

[trail wagon]

yeah actually

[vestal swan]

Stuff that hasn't even come into a tendril like shape yet, like the stuff pouring out of the bowl

[sterile jacinth]

To be fair it’s two gods that are creating the vessels and they discarded hundreds before they found one that fit

[trail wagon]

ahahhahahaha

[trail wagon]

Oh okay gotcha

[timber pond]

Thats probably what Sharpe might be NGL

[trail wagon]

Also, since somebody mentioned Kingsmoulds, why do they look like steel guys soo much?

[trail wagon]

And also, do you think they were designed by the Weavers too?

[vestal swan]

They don't really, steel guys have completely covered layered bodies

[timber pond]

GOOD POINT MY FREIND

[vestal swan]

Kingsmoulds are wearing like patchwork armor

[sterile jacinth]

Might be something to do with their indestructibility. I don’t think pk has an alliance with city of steel

[muted lantern]

The flower is a message that grey mourner still loves her, and still holds her her in her heart. I think it's notable that the delivery allows more flowers to bloom, i think it's a return of the sentiment, and it's also meaningful that there's more than one, it gives opportunity for ghost to give flowers to many other bugs, each with their own regrets, Oro and his broken relationship with his sibling, I believe elderbug is mourning someone too, I think it's notable that white lady refuses, but it also makes sense, she's isolated herself because of her regrets, and she can't yet allow herself to move on, especially when the offer is given by the ghost of one of her dead children, the very face of her regrets. (She also has a literal reason, but again I'm arguing subtext)

[trail wagon]

It is somewhat different, of course, but there's a looot of similarities

[muted lantern]

Godseeekers regrets are umm uhhh

[timber pond]

You telling me this guy dosent look like hes wearing Kingsmould armour?

[muted lantern]

Help me out here I'm stretching

[trail wagon]

No, he 100% doesn't, I'm not suggesting that

[trail wagon]

But there might be some design reason for that

[vestal swan]

I thought we were comparing the steel robot people?

[sterile jacinth]

I completely agree. Elder bug seems to regret how people keep going down the well and how empty and dead both dirtmouth and hallownest as a whole are

[wide mauve]

not really. many bugs in hollow knight are pure black and have armor similar to that for artstyle reasons

[vestal swan]

Sharpe is totally a SteelMastersMould

[timber pond]

Ok which ones.

The only One hes similar to is Wingsmould/ Kingsmould

[sterile jacinth]

Stilkin. Graymoor. Burning bugs

[wide mauve]

https://hollowknightsilksong.wiki.fextralife.com/Enemies
https://hollowknight.wiki.fextralife.com/Enemies
look here for more info

[sterile jacinth]

Those are just off the top of my head

[muted lantern]

I think it's implied that the steel masters have some relation to the void, maybe this steel is specifically very good for like containing void? Maybe because it's not pure? Idk I'm floundering here

How similar do the kingsmold look to sharp anyhow? Isn't the kingsmold metal whiter

[sterile jacinth]

I guess they don’t have armor but they have the same black body and white eyes

[timber pond]

Ok then explain how he does this doubter https://i.kickstarter.com/assets/015/421/919/5ade70cb03b80459afee6c6b95043092_original.gif?fit=scale-down&origin=ugc&q=92&v=1486460543&width=700&sig=%2BYqX8%2B4kE7z%2FkBZprfrOeJahINndhEzcKgMk0VGxIls%3D

[muted lantern]

He smelled a pie on a windowsill

[wide mauve]

thats more reasonable of an arguement. does look a lot like void tendrils. still though its cut content so we really dont know

not saying youre wrong that steel fellers are void. just that we dont know

[trail wagon]

Like for example, I'm more than sure this robot is inspired by the Marrow fly

[trail wagon]

ahahahah

[timber pond]

Not all of them. but assassins like Sharpe are likely Moulds implanted with a "Directive" like they were

[trail wagon]

aren't they literally the same?

[olive quartz]

i mean they are called. kingsmoulds

[trail wagon]

Isn't the difference that one of them is in Silksong and another in Hollow Knight

[wide mauve]

likely? sure but we simply do not know

[olive quartz]

heavily implying they were molded by the king

[muted lantern]

Do the moulds look that similar to the assassin? The armor is a different color isn't it?

[trail wagon]

ohhhh

Kingswoulds are big ones, sorry

ma bad

[wide mauve]

i think it would make sense if the steelfuckers were molded from void but i dont think its related to the pale kings creations

[timber pond]

no but i mean like

[trail wagon]

wingsmoulds do though

[wide mauve]

kinda. i guess the eyes match but

[trail wagon]

I mean the entire pallete is pretty similar

I mean

They also are different

But nobody would suggest they're not related, right?

[timber pond]

Zi is older,so IMO , rpobably why shes darker

[trail wagon]

Like their color is different

[timber pond]

Jinn is aperently suposed to be "young"

[trail wagon]

My guess is mostly redesign

I don't think the exact color matters that much

i mean

Also, I have a theory about color pallete, hear me out

[timber pond]

Its probably Just the Difference then in contrast

[trail wagon]

In Hollow Knight we play as a VOID being, so it's darker and less saturated

In Silksong we see that saturation is getting lower when the GMS screams from the Abyss

[muted lantern]

Silksong is just more saturated than HK, I've seen someone argue it's because hallownest is a dead kingdom and pharloom still has a chance. Or because it's from hornets eyes not a void creature.

[olive quartz]

i do not think that is actually explaining anything

[trail wagon]

So saturation is probably related to the Void

[trail wagon]

why? it explains why silksong is brighter lol

[rough ingot]

sharpe is void

[olive quartz]

it's not for any particular lore reason, team cherry just wanted to make a more vibrant game

[trail wagon]

I know that the reason is because it looks better

[olive quartz]

it's a cute explanation but it has no relation to developer intent, which is the ultimate cause of everything in both games

[trail wagon]

Of course it is just to make it look better

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's cloak reverts to its HK color whenever GMS screams

[trail wagon]

Probably, but it's just fun 😭

[muted lantern]

Sure totally possible, but it's fun to speculate that there's deeper meanings to things, it's kinda a big part of analyzing fiction.

[rough ingot]

ones by the pale king using a void mould, and armor that looks like its made from white palace, like PV’s armor, Sharpe’s is by the Masters

[trail wagon]

That's what I'm saying

I think it's even less saturated though

[rough ingot]

just design details

[trail wagon]

I mean not necessarily? How do we know

[rough ingot]

its a void construct like collector

[olive quartz]

collector is heavily implied to be a defective kingsmould

[trail wagon]

I know, the first Silksong trailer looks almost exactly like the first game

[rough ingot]

It bears a lot of significance to the collector and its probiscus attack has VERY similar properties to void

[trail wagon]

And then they made it more saturated

[trail wagon]

Kinda yeah, I agree, his attack looks like void, but other than that... not sure

[rough ingot]

they changed it to be more vibrant, further making the obvious parallels

[olive quartz]

"bears a lot of similarities to the collector" literally how

[sinful nimbus]

In the sense that its a black thing flailing around which isn't really a distinct thing

[olive quartz]

one of the collector's defining traits, practically its only one even, is that it has four arms

[rough ingot]

eyes not glowing like actual void forms, known connection to the steel beings

[trail wagon]

Isn't Collector just a Kingmould with no armour?

[olive quartz]

"known connection to the steel beings" ??

[rough ingot]

not all void beings do, its just the cast pk used, collector has a neck and hands unlike kingsmouds

[sinful nimbus]

"Steel Assassin Sharpe"

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but still, they added this desaturation thing

[rough ingot]

teased in trailer

[sinful nimbus]

But Steel Masters are opposed to void usage

[olive quartz]

where lmfao

[rough ingot]

i dont think so

[rough ingot]

i saw it somewhere

[trail wagon]

hes black and has white eys

[sinful nimbus]

The vassal is tarnished. They have touched the dark. By the Masters, they will now be hunted... no matter the distance fled.

[olive quartz]

where lmfao

[rough ingot]

some old trailer analysis

[sinful nimbus]

🥹

[trail wagon]

I mean his long ahh nose looks a lot like a void tendril

[olive quartz]

where lmfao

[sinful nimbus]

Its just black

[rough ingot]

similar to attack from void given form

[trail wagon]

where what

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe did show up in the 2019 trailer in full steel and stuff with a companion that looks like Jinn/Zi

[rough ingot]

truly black, no ordinary bug body

[rough ingot]

Yea i remember that

[olive quartz]

well, opposed to their vassals using void

[trail wagon]

he didn't

[rough ingot]

cut content be like

[sinful nimbus]

That's not a thing unique to void creatures

[trail wagon]

I think the article is titled "Steel Assasing Sharpe"

[sinful nimbus]

Oh he's not in the trailer but his companion is and yeah

[trail wagon]

yeah but

[rough ingot]

Those are moulded not actuall void forms, which all appear to have the glowing eyes, evidence: siblings, Void given form, void given focus

[trail wagon]

It seems like it's considered an abomination in general

[rough ingot]

DLC POTENTIAL, also sharpe was in an old game poster

[trail wagon]

Not just for Vassals

[olive quartz]

collector is a defective kingsmould so it's sensible that it would look different. you also hardly see the armorless kingsmould because it's a half second death animation, the collector warranted more detail because you only see the void critter

[rough ingot]

its just really deadly

[trail wagon]

not potential, fact* 😊

[rough ingot]

yes

one of my hopes for silksong was sharpe, team cherry pls deliver

[trail wagon]

I mean it's too important to cut it

[olive quartz]

the eyes are pretty clearly meant to be glowing

[rough ingot]

Were they?

[trail wagon]

plus Sharpe was a backer character, I know it's been said million times

[rough ingot]

The regular shade’s dolt

[random aspen]

hk cut content was cut cus they didnt have time or money

[olive quartz]

do you think TC wanted us to look at the collector and go "ah yes the eyes must be painted on"

[trail wagon]

but the other backers from the same tier made God Tamer and Karmelita

[random aspen]

silksong cut content was cut cus they just chose to cut it

so its unlikely we're ever seeing sharpe 💔

if enough people beg we might get it though

[trail wagon]

what..?

[olive quartz]

...and also because the fanbase was ravenously clamoring for an early release

[rough ingot]

no its just the collector is a construct, not a form, yes, the void given focus does have similar-ish arm structure, but thats different

[trail wagon]

not necessaril y

[olive quartz]

construct and form are synonyms lol

[random aspen]

yeaahhh and they listened sure

[trail wagon]

AHAHHAAHH

[rough ingot]

they arent really, forms are naturally created, pale king’s moulds created constructs

[trail wagon]

I mean technically they did lmao

According to the interview they wanted to add even MORE

[rough ingot]

says it in some vid i forgot, i watched too much

[random aspen]

even then sharpe was shown REALLY early so why would they delay his addition to the point it gets cut

[trail wagon]

But they stopped because they realized "hhhhmmmm, it's taking a bit too long I guess"

[olive quartz]

some vid is not necessarily representative of what the game actually says

[sinful nimbus]

The mechanism seems to be the same between the two with the shell being the mould and the pale child mind being the "instructions" so to speak

[rough ingot]

the collector is REALLY different from the shades

[trail wagon]

I think they just wanted to add more content to the DLC to be honest

[rough ingot]

sorta i guess, but kingsmoulds dont have souls, the vessels shades devoured their souls and basically fused with them

[sinful nimbus]

Of all DLC options the Steel Assassins are the most likely because Zi literally talks about them

[olive quartz]

i mean, sure, it's not a vessel

they are still similarly void beings

[trail wagon]

Wait I don't think she does

[rough ingot]

DLC ending better get the upgrade like P5

[rough ingot]

and team cherry said hornet will be hunted by the steel assasins

[trail wagon]

We sure will get a patheon type shi

[rough ingot]

i wana modd that so bad

[olive quartz]

they also said silksong would be a dlc

[trail wagon]

I think it's already there

[rough ingot]

i wana absolutely wreck the p5 entrance

[rough ingot]

is it?

i mean, we need to recolor godhome since the radiance is very very dead, and the shade lord is now respected

[trail wagon]

I

[olive quartz]

...neither do, shades give no soul on hit

[trail wagon]

I've seen a video where they did something similar

[random aspen]

voidhome

[trail wagon]

But you have to select them manually I think

[olive quartz]

nor does the collector

[rough ingot]

Cuz void sucks soul and devours it, u dant get it back, it ate it all

[olive quartz]

ok so the siblings don't have souls, nor does the collector

[rough ingot]

can we just do a lota sprite edits

[vestal swan]

Soul ≠ souls

[olive quartz]

you get soul from the kingsmoulds because they're wearing armor infused with soul

[timber pond]

IDK , its either going to be An Act 3 exclusive quest or Its not even going to be in silksong IMO. The Context for thier presence requires void to be disturbed.

[rough ingot]

and pv cuz ur striking its shell, which has soul

[olive quartz]

what .

[rough ingot]

and the fight would be completely un fair without it

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah Act 3 would be the way to go

[timber pond]

And If they Persue till the ends of the earth, now there is a reasonable story Justification for this to happen to hornet AFTER silksong.

Unless they are really fucking fast?

[vestal swan]

Act 4

[rough ingot]

i mean, the void is very angry, hornet just accidentally dropped a pale god in it