sk-lore

[midnight zinc]

Sherma is definitely as good at climbing as THK if he got all the way to the top of blasted steps lmao

[minor hill]

i was so confused by that

how tf this small child doign the blasted steps runback

[midnight zinc]

I mean you can ask the same question of how the hell did Zote survive for so long

[silk dirge]

how did sherma not get sniped by a driznit

[craggy smelt]

pilgrims don't get run-backs, he did it first try

[midnight zinc]

Even discounting the two times we save him

[unique canopy]

Sherma is so pure the Driznit gave him a ride

[craggy smelt]

why isn't this fucking guy saving the world

[silk dirge]

speaking of which top 10 cursed images of all time

[sinful nimbus]

Sherma can get past some Driznits

[craggy smelt]

guess it'd be too easy a game with them as pc

[pine flax]

he can surf the sandcarver sands with his cymbal hat

[minor hill]

why doesnt sherma just ascend to godhood actually

[silk dirge]

you barely see this frame in game

its so fucking cursed

the wiki has it tho

[midnight zinc]

Zote doesnt even have a real sword and he traveled across the wastes to get to Hallownest, and only needed saving twice

[craggy smelt]

aww, adorable

[silk dirge]

these are driznargas

[edgy nebula]

you know what pisses me off

[craggy smelt]

impossibly cute

[sinful nimbus]

[edgy nebula]

karak died before the citadel, do we agree on that

[sinful nimbus]

egegeueeeeegj

Its possible but idk why you would swing one way or another

[edgy nebula]

i feel like most things point to that being the case, specifically khann talking about pale light and also the entire plot of the old hearts quest being to look into memories from before gms

[craggy smelt]

what's doing the fighting pre-Citadel, weavers and Silk herself?

[edgy nebula]

presumably yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Presumably

The Citadel is an extension of GMS though which means "Pale Light" can go either way

[edgy nebula]

of course there's more evidence than that but it's the most likely for me

[craggy smelt]

there are stories of Weavers being vicious fighters, I suppose they had to come from somewhere...

[edgy nebula]

but what makes me mad is the crustcrags in the memorium, since there arent any crustcrawlers in present day karak

one of the only things that challenge my agenda

[unique canopy]

Isn't there a dead Conductor in the background of Watcher's arena?

[edgy nebula]

no

[sinful nimbus]

No that's the Blasted Steps entrance to Pharloom

[edgy nebula]

it's at the edge of blasted steps, where hornet states she wont leave the kingdom

[unique canopy]

Gotcha, misremembered

[silk dirge]

watcher at the edge more like watch yo step bro

[craggy smelt]

so was Watcher at the Edge guarding against potential outside threats, and no one told him about the one at home?

brutal

[edgy nebula]

atleast the crustcrags have cool needolin dialogue

but... hidden?

[foggy fractal]

full of silk

[craggy smelt]

ingredients: Silk
"Shit~!"

[silk dirge]

im gonna get haunted now

i guess this means i gotta spread gms propaganda

[edgy nebula]

do we think this has any notability

only real canon idea we have of what might have happened to the water, i dont know if the crustcrags are very reliable though

[craggy smelt]

hmmm...

[graceful kraken]

well i mean……maybe..??? the water is probably run off from mount fey,and we do know that the citadel had some construction there….

[lethal burrow]

What are we talking about?

[craggy smelt]

there's theories about the water originating from Mount Fay
but what if it came from like an artifact or something? some god-relic or magical source that was taken away

[edgy nebula]

karak

[craggy smelt]

like the Void in Hallownest pouring out of that bowl

that'd be weird

[lethal burrow]

like the iron rod from broom tower

[vestal swan]

Two of those are really weird and concerning

[edgy nebula]

it's ambiguous but it's possible karak fell pre-citadel, so im a bit curious about that (despite it making crustcrags a paradox)

[craggy smelt]

sure, from whatever the hell that is

[trail wagon]

Savage driznadgazarorogohtom

[edgy nebula]

which?

[silk dirge]

wtf my message got deleted

[graceful kraken]

well i mean if it makes crustcrags a paradox th n. it was probably during the citadel 😭

[silk dirge]

cant even take my whiteward estrogen without mods intervening

[edgy nebula]

yeah but we have so much evidence for both of the timelines, and the entire plot for the old hearts is returning to memories pre-gms

[vestal swan]

False chambers poison light?
Wait figured it out, but who the hell was putting them in cages and beating them with whips

[foggy fractal]

always blame the citadel

[spark valve]

It’s not just before GMS it’s before her and the system to keep her asleep

[craggy smelt]

Citadel poachers!

[graceful kraken]

well yeah. and when the citadel came it squashed all the civilizations. its not conflicting…?

[silk dirge]

arent crustcrags found in memorium

[edgy nebula]

probaly the memorium workers, wouldnt put it past them to abuse animals

[spark valve]

This includes shit like Verdania which definitely fell during citadel era

[edgy nebula]

yeah, the problem is that crustcrawlers arent in karak anymore, which lowkey wrecks my agenda

[vestal swan]

Wait is this memoriam needolin? I thought it was one of the other crabs

[silk dirge]

"poison light" sounds like voltvessels

[graceful kraken]

poison light was probably the voltspheres that the memorium workers have…

[craggy smelt]

The 'water's source... hidden... lost...' is the weird one
maybe it was just always hidden and then became lost to the karaka when they were overrun/defeated

[silk dirge]

i think voltvessels were tools to force different creatures into their cages

[edgy nebula]

it's crustcrag, a memorium bug

[vestal swan]

Ah, yeah makes sense now

[graceful kraken]

thats what i was thinking…..i mean why else would they have them.

[silk dirge]

massive mossgrubs are very sheep coded so i feel like its likely

cattle prod or something like that

yeah voltvessels would definitely fit this description

[vestal swan]

Electrified whip

[edgy nebula]

"now, give the massive mossgrub a small controlled shock!"

[edgy nebula]

yeah, but it could also be literally hidden from the rest of the world or something, which is weird

[foggy fractal]

uh oh

[dire lynx]

tuff

[graceful kraken]

do you think that the bellbeast and moorwing were also bred by the memorium…? possibly even also the bellbeast…?

[edgy nebula]

moorwing was bred by the citadel, bellbeast is ambiguous, we arent sure

[graceful kraken]

i feel like it would make sense…..

[edgy nebula]

<@&283547423706447872>

[dreamy frost]

Theory: ||Greyroot|| and other ||root beings|| feed on ||pale beings|| (Like ||Grand mother silk||, Hornet, Ect.) to later form ||into pale|| beings themselves.

[foggy fractal]

you don't need to spoiler anything in this channel btw

[craggy smelt]

the grey beings, greyroot and greywyrm

the deep irony though is that Zote has absolutely nothing to do with them

he will never truly be important in any way

[halcyon merlin]

i think they just do the ritual on any strong beings they encounter

hornet was just a lucky find, she's a pale being and daughter of a higher being

[dreamy frost]

Good point I agree.

[craggy smelt]

there were lots of buds in the past according to Pavo

Greyroot mentions that there is no one else if Hornet declines the Rite of Rebirth

[edgy nebula]

they just do it on any bug, greyroot abused pilgrims for their faith and kindness many times in the past

[halcyon merlin]

oh

[midnight zinc]

It is interesting that she's called "greyroot", though I think they may just be a descriptive title Hornet gives her, like how most pilgrims are just called "[adjective] pilgrim"

[halcyon merlin]

in a way that could be true but also could be just her trying to make hornet have no option but to accept

[midnight zinc]

But signifying her greyness as important makes me wonder

[edgy nebula]

you find loads of corpses in the chapel of the witch so it can be inferred if not for hornet's pale genes she wouldve instantly gotten taken by the parasite

[halcyon merlin]

i wonder how is the parasite after the cursed ending

[edgy nebula]

probably much stronger, with a new home inside the cradle

[halcyon merlin]

it would be cool to see a design even if fanmade

[dreamy frost]

However, and hear me out on this since it’s a stretch, the white lady, a Root being, is somehow a Pale being. So, my theory for her? The pale king killed and/or gutted a higher being and fed it to the white lady so she could be a pale being as well.

[midnight zinc]

I feel like we'd have seen or heard something about that

[halcyon merlin]

i think it could just be that white lady was just born as a pale being

we don't even know how exactly it works

[midnight zinc]

Also the way the white lady talks about pale beings makes me think she'd not THAT different from the rest of them, if she was originally a bug/parasite that would probably change things

[graceful kraken]

well i mean hornet never learns laces name.

[halcyon merlin]

tbh was her name ever said in the game

[midnight zinc]

We have no clue why certain gods are pale, but both the white lady and the pale king do make it clear that species that are not typically pale or even gods can be pale beings. We now know not all Roots are pale beings, and the constant referal by characters in both games to the pale king as a "white wyrm" or "pale wyrm" seems to imply not all wyrms are pale beings either. So pale beings are a very odd and unique group of higher beings.

[halcyon merlin]

other than journal and the boss title thing

never heard of that so i don't know how that is

[midnight zinc]

This is true, and actually hilarious to think about. Right after the sister of the void ending, Lace is just like "btw I'm lace, what's your name?"

[graceful kraken]

there IS blackwyrm….

[halcyon merlin]

imma go with the boring? answer that pale beings are just rare bugs that were born this way so like any species of bug can be pale its just too rare for these to happen (unless its pale beings breeding then apparently the children will always be pale beings)

[graceful kraken]

my understanding of it is there are higherbeings and there are pale higher beings. grey root is just either a very,very weak higher being or a very powerful inbetween higher being/bug

[halcyon merlin]

sounds cool

[edgy nebula]

we dont know if blackwyrm was a wyrm or some type of place

[halcyon merlin]

i was going to say all pale beings we know are higher beings but then i forgot again about the vessels and hornet

[midnight zinc]

Lame ass theory that makes no sense tbh

[edgy nebula]

notably it's the battle of the blackwyrm and not the battle of the black wyrm

[graceful kraken]

on the wyrm fighting. Whatever . Wyrm mites that threaten the kingdom

[craggy smelt]

but we've also now got Roots and a Greyroot

[midnight zinc]

Yeah cuz that changes everything

[craggy smelt]

could be similar with Wyrms and a Blackwyrm

[graceful kraken]

okay greyroot. is one word

[edgy nebula]

if the white lady was named the white root id bat an eye

[midnight zinc]

Did not respond to the right message lol

[graceful kraken]

obviously. all of hk ss lore hinges on that one fact.

[halcyon merlin]

very epic theory: the blackwyrm is a wyrm with void!!!11 🔥 cujz like blackwyrm black, void is black 🔥🔥 🧯

[midnight zinc]

2018 HK fandom ass theory

[edgy nebula]

considering the pale king is called the white wyrm by the citadel.... lowkey... this is canon

[pale narwhal]

i dont think its ever made clear that wyrms arent typically pale
they way bardoon and mr mushroom describe them the powers of the Pale King seem standard fare for wyrms

[edgy nebula]

still waiting from the sandseawyrm from the sandsea wastes

cant forget the steel citywyrm, classic

[midnight zinc]

Bardoon and MM don't talk about his use of soul at all

Which is the part that would likely not be present in non-pale wyrms, at least not to that extent

[pale narwhal]

is the pale king known to have used soul? didnt he disapprove of it?

[edgy nebula]

holy shit bruh

[foggy fractal]

<@&283547423706447872>

[pale narwhal]

also mortal bugs can use soul, hes not special

[halcyon merlin]

soul master experiments were inhumane that's different

[midnight zinc]

Have you been to the White Palace? Or fought the Pure Vessel? Yes he absolutely used soul, thats like his main thing

[edgy nebula]

the bots are angry today

[halcyon merlin]

he killed bugs and experimented on them

[edgy nebula]

the skongers want their free crypto

[graceful kraken]

i mean like. if you really NEED to tie in everything said with somethign in the game I GUESS the balckwyrm could be the lifeblood beast in the abyss.

[edgy nebula]

AGAIN??????

Get rid of these covetous pilgrims bruh

[midnight zinc]

The king didnt like the soul master because he was killing thousands of his subjects to get soul, the Pale king can seemingly generate it infinitely (see Kingsoul charm). Also the ability for vessels to focus comes from their pale shell, the last remnant of their godly nature not hollowed out by the void.

[halcyon merlin]

the mods getting pinged every 10 minutes because of the bots

[edgy nebula]

More like every 2, honestly

[halcyon merlin]

true

[edgy nebula]

I’ve probably pinged mods a good 5 times today

[midnight zinc]

There's no way the pale king would let another wyrm live in his kingdom

[graceful kraken]

like i mean i GUESS you could tie something together with the pale king outlawing lifeblood and the blackwyrm being the lifeblood being. like he sent it down to the abyss/mortally wounded it and now it only exists in dreams. Or Something.

[pale narwhal]

and the shamans, and salubra, and the ancient civilisation (i wont list groal because that came from a shaman)

[midnight zinc]

How can the soul master be inhumane if there are no humans?

[edgy nebula]

soul master is inbuge

[halcyon merlin]

🧠

[foggy fractal]

what's funny is that these bots spam across the whole server, so it's likely the mods are getting triple or quad pinged every 10 minutes

[silk dirge]

official theme of hollow knight discord https://youtu.be/vQim4Fcbwpk?si=jdpSEaB2BqC3pEbb

not when it invades this server

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umhEEBSe4mk this lowkey us

[silk dirge]

what crypto scams are they devising

[edgy nebula]

wrong, this is our theme https://youtu.be/bOWu5AXLFwQ?si=B_JGiniywxGopqF3

fine… pulling out the big guns.. https://youtu.be/tXxHFrpoVJU?si=R_yQp9wUEo-8MxQy

[silk dirge]

barishkava

[edgy nebula]

uushka karak*

[lime osprey]

Silksong makes me hate the blackwyrm line so much more. Beforehand, it was a stupid throwaway line that had massive implications but you could just write-off as not being literal. In silksong however, not only does everyone know what a wyrm is and uses the term in the correct context, but GMS specifically refers to the Pale King as the White Wyrm, which makes the title: Blackwyrm implied to be much more literal

[halcyon merlin]

damn

[mighty swallow]

fire point

[lime osprey]

the player is like constantly bombarded with "HEY, this thing is NOT real" in context of the Pale Stag. The Battle of the BlackWyrm or whatever its called is the official, in universe, name of an actual battle that happened, a name given to by the governing body of the kingdom ruled by the "White Wyrm" and has no other references outside of that to question its legitimacy

[edgy nebula]

tc lore makes my head hurt

[fathom hill]

same

[edgy nebula]

even the area i like most suffers from vague ass lore

[fathom hill]

something something the blackwyrm will end up to be like a lake or some shit

I thought that was mostly the consensus before ss

[lime osprey]

ehhhhhhh, but he wouldn't make up a name for an actual battle that happened that would've had an official name already. I get your point tho

[fathom hill]

main two theories were a literal black wyrm or the name of the place

[unique canopy]

Hallownest was still "The Kingdom of the White Wyrm" long after the Pale King presumably died and the kingdom had fallen, so there could be a similar situation where the other kingdom was founded by a Black Wyrm but its founder was either not present or dead long before the battle

[lime osprey]

GMS called the PK the "White Wyrm." So it gives more credence to the idea that the blackwyrm WAS an actual wyrm somehow. But yes, i believe the title does not refer to an actual battle against another live wyrm

[fathom hill]

I mean names matter, blackwyrm is not black wyrm

just like grand mother is not grandmother no?

[lime osprey]

Truthful

[fathom hill]

So is it for fancyness sake or other reasons

Oh we haven't seen other wyrms ig?

[lime osprey]

meh, the word wyrm wouldn't be used in-universe that way

[fathom hill]

Wyrms being a broad definition for multiple kind of "dragons" is kind of interesting, just a bit unfounded me think

What does the wyrm enthusiast in hk say abt it

[lime osprey]

I mean, most likely the blackwyrm refers to the location of a battle being in another wyrm corpse that wasn't the PK. I just hate that and the lore implications that ensue

[fathom hill]

do they have certain characteristics?

[lime osprey]

Wyrms in HK Specifically have no limbs

Also the implication that not all wyrms are pale is annoying me

[silk dirge]

found a picture of the scam bot

[unique canopy]

My completely bassless assumption is that they're called wyrms for the meta reason of it being wordplay with worms, therefore wyrms can be assumed to be the HK setting's version of giant earthworms with god powers until shown otherwise

[lime osprey]

this is just the correct take lmao

[fathom hill]

Yah

So they must have specific characteristics

[lime osprey]

I wanna hate these guys so much cause they're so annoying but they're just pathetic little guys that sound like they're in eternal pain and misery

[fathom hill]

cannot be dragonfly probably, unless their wyrm status makes it have no limbs

Which is unlikely id say

[fathom hill]

I think it's fine

kind of weird but fine, I like to think pale beings as exceptional specimens among their species

like shiny pokemon

[unique canopy]

Albinism gives you god powers

[fathom hill]

But it kind of only works with pale king and the white lady and maybe the pale lurker

what species would gms be

Mother?

[lime osprey]

ehhhhhhhhhh, I like the thematic essence of the Pale King being so great because he's the last of a dead, great species, not because he's special amongst even his god-like species

[edgy nebula]

<@&283547423706447872>

[unique canopy]

How do so many people fall for the same scam on a regular basis

[wise sand]

Doubt it would fit unless it's on the surface

+wyrms(the dragon kind) are usually wormy

[lime osprey]

I think the PK being special even amongst wyrms kinda tarnishes the theming of HK just a tad bit

[limpid summit]

Grimm says “kingdom fallowed by worm and root” as sort of a double metaphor but no one ever says wyrm lowercase

[fathom hill]

yah I'd prefer it if wyrms were all pale somehow, like pale is a category of powerful beings that have certain characteristics

[limpid summit]

Wyrms are basically dragons in universe

[fathom hill]

but yah rn kind of not possible

[limpid summit]

Bell Eater is a centipede and it’s like an ancient beast

Oh yeah wait he does forgot

[wise sand]

Yeah

[dawn sluice]

it differentiates the actual earthworms from the bug stand ins for worms
like gorms vs the pale king

[lime osprey]

meh, I don't think "pale" has to mean "strong," I just think pale means being of certain characteristics like you siad

like Lace has really special abilities but she's not really all that strong

[fathom hill]

Maybe I mean powerful as exceptional

[lime osprey]

truthful

[fathom hill]

They do certain stuff really well

[wise sand]

Jjk

[lime osprey]

Am I gonna get canceled for stating Phantom is, too, a pale being

[fathom hill]

I hear you

[wise sand]

I mean she is ig

[fathom hill]

Oh you arguing that Lace and Phantom may be pale?

[lime osprey]

Lace is confirmed to be a pale being, phantom isn't

[fathom hill]

Is she now?

[bleak ridge]

Would make sense as phantom WAS banished for supposedly being a failure

[lime osprey]

nah Phantom's pale trust

[lime osprey]

"ours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence."

[wise sand]

Eva is also pale i think

[fathom hill]

I always assumed she just called her white one

[lime osprey]

Sylphean slugs produce Pale oil. Binding Eva gives you sylphsong, which gives you infinite silk/soul. hmmm

[fathom hill]

Does Lace even use soul based anything or silk?

[lime osprey]

she leads the silkflies

[fathom hill]

You right mmm

Would weavers be pale in that case

[lime osprey]

she projects herself through a sea of void and is able to survive being overtaken by it, the latter being speficially an ability that is kinda related to pale beings

[fathom hill]

I don't think we know this

Since the white lady dialogue abt the

flower thingy protecting them against the void

if it was their pale status why the need of the flower

Lace and Phantom ain't offspring either

They're constructs

[lime osprey]

Nah, they're probably more akin to better soul sanctum wizards. We're pretty sure Weavers aren't pale also from the fact that Hornet is specifically referred to as a "Pale gift"

[fathom hill]

Which is different from other pale offspring as seen with the vessels

Or Hornet ig, though she has a biological part

[fathom hill]

Right so silk or soul use doesn't strike pale immediately

Necessarily ig

Oh weavers are just ascended pharlids with their power coming from the silk of gms

[limpid summit]

Weavers are uber powerful regular dudes like Shamans

[fathom hill]

Since there's a tablet or something that is one of the weavers saying they feel their power lessening or something

[lime osprey]

which is why i said kinda lol. Silk, and whatever lace is, is abstracted from just pure soul, and is shown different properties and uses between them. And the PK appeared to lack the ability to create silk as well. So just because something is pale, doesn't mean all pale things share that characteristic Also, the silk the void rides along in act3 isn't destroyed by the void, so lace surviving being corrupted is probably, due in part, to her being specifically made of silk

[fathom hill]

They're not gods but I'm trying to understand why would Lace or Phantom be pale outside of that one dialogue

Would GMS even be able to make a pale being?

[lime osprey]

The silk the weavers used is created within their own shells automatically, an ability given to them from GMS herself. Compared to an actual pale being, like hornet, who intentionally reaps silk from the soul of her victims by no other skill but her own

[fathom hill]

The caretaker seems to know a bit abt pale beings, why doesn't he mention it when he talks abt lace

[limpid summit]

It depends on how you define pale being which is still sort of unclear

[fathom hill]

or the mask maker for that matter, though idk if he knows Lace exists

[limpid summit]

Originally it was just PK and WL now GMS is one and Hornet may be?

But regardless I don’t think Lace or Phantom are pale

[fathom hill]

Yah kind of

[muted lantern]

Which bosses get voided in act 3?

[limpid summit]

She can’t be half pale being it isn’t a species

[fathom hill]

Again the weavers say their power is lessening so what's with that

[unique canopy]

Does anyone refer to Lace as pale besides Hornet?

[limpid summit]

Lugoli Moorwing Beastfly?

That might be it

[fathom hill]

So confusing if their silk is made in their own bodies no?

[limpid summit]

Everything else is required or exclusive

[lime osprey]

Hornet is called Pale multiple times throughout the game, her and the vessels are pale beings

Lace is also called Pale by hornet herself

[limpid summit]

Vessels are not pale beings

Vespa tells us to blame the pale beings for our nature this assumes we aren’t one ourself

Being called pale could also just be a quality Hornet is pale because she’s PK’s daughter

[fathom hill]

Yah being pale is kind of a weird state, since two pale beings don't have pale offspring

[limpid summit]

TK is white

[fathom hill]

Except Hornet ig

[limpid summit]

Pale ferns are not pale in the same way PK is pale

[silk dirge]

yes they are

dont doubt the grass

[fathom hill]

what would tiso know though lmao

[unique canopy]

With how much pale is thrown around, I think it's supposed to be just a descriptor of colour or purity instead of power level

[fathom hill]

Tiso ain't a good source

Tiso just says shit

<@&283547423706447872>

[lime osprey]

They're beings created and maintained by nothing other than silk (soul), so they are pale. Phantom also shows more silk proficiency than Lace does lol. Also, even though they are stated to be "unique," Lace and Phantom are treated as, and none lesser, than direct descendants of GMS herself. Echoed in both their designs, Lace and especially phantom share striking physical characteristics of GMS. So somehow, GMS reproduced on her own lol

[fathom hill]

fuck me man

[limpid summit]

Genuinely what would Tiso know about pale beings 💔

[fathom hill]

Real lol

[limpid summit]

Saying every mention of pale refers to pale beings is like in HK when people used to call every black body void

[lime osprey]

the vessels are pale bro lol

[limpid summit]

Whatever pale beings are, Hornet might be one and Vessels are not

[fathom hill]

Tiso would be the kind to say that Hornet is void cuz she has black limbs fr

[lime osprey]

what being is referred to as pale that isn't tho

[limpid summit]

Pale fern

Palestag also has no connection to anything

[lime osprey]

The vessels are born with the natural ability to use soul in a profound way. They are literally born with the natural proficiency to use soul and get it, they are certainly pale

[limpid summit]

What

[lime osprey]

Palestag isn't real

[limpid summit]

You made up what pale means

You can’t use your own definition of pale to say vessels are pale

[lime osprey]

Pale is almost always used in referrence to a being who has a strong relationship or proficiency with soul

[limpid summit]

Pale fern

[fathom hill]

What would the white lady use in proficiency with soul now i wonder

[limpid summit]

Epic growth powers

Yes?

[fathom hill]

That'd make sense

[limpid summit]

Pale being is still a term that doesn’t have a clear definition

[lime osprey]

the bindings on her, kingsoul is a charm half made by her, which generates infinite soul. And her children have perfect proficiency with soul

[fathom hill]

Maybe the ability to even create life is something tied with soul

Given how gms could indeed create it somehow

[limpid summit]

Also like Vessels are not pale beings

Tiso calls them “pale” because TK is white

[fathom hill]

Again why are we using Tiso as a source even

Even if he was right or wrong it's fucking tiso

[limpid summit]

Vespa says TK should blame the pale beings for their nature which would be weird to say if TK was one

[lime osprey]

Common bugs have the ability to discern who is and isn't pale (at times)

[craggy smelt]

if Hornet qualifies as part of the 'pale being/higher caste' group, then the pale children of WL and PK should also qualify
whether vessels do as Shades wearing the corpses of pale beings might be another matter

[lime osprey]

Shades being pale beings is a truth nuke I'm not ready for (They aren't)

[fathom hill]

Example?

[limpid summit]

Hornet refers to herself as having pale lineage

She doesn’t even count herself as an entirely pale being

The vessels as unique entities are not pale

[fathom hill]

aside from idk the caretaker ig

But even the caretaker is no common bug

[limpid summit]

But what does that mean

You can use pale as a buzzword but we have no definition for pale beings like we do HBs it is a meaningless label

[craggy smelt]

Hornet refers to herself as a pale being when speaking with Green Prince

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[lime osprey]

Snail Shamans, Karmelita, Steel Seer, uh, uhhh well those aren't really common bugs lol you kinda got me there

[craggy smelt]

she considers herself part of the 'higher caste', regardless of her degree of power or current status

(so does Mask Maker)

[lime osprey]

If you can't tell what is and isn't pale/HB then that's just a skill issue

[lime osprey]

No, she explicitly does not

[fathom hill]

I argue that not everytime someone mentions pale is to imply they are a pale being, pale is also like a word that means white

I argue that Lace isn't a pale being yet giving by one only dialogue

[craggy smelt]

higher caste in this instance referring to pale beings
she rejects what that typically means, i.e. becoming some asshole god

[wise sand]

I don't think we can agree on what pale beings are because there isn't an exact canon definition

[lime osprey]

When has someone used pale in referrence to something that is just white? It, at most, is used in reference to something that is mystical or rare

[limpid summit]

This

[limpid summit]

Pale fern

[fathom hill]

Also the palestag isn't real? didn't the green prince say that he wanted to hunt him or something

isn't it kind of left ambiguous on purpose

[lime osprey]

where is this even a thing

[limpid summit]

Wanderer’s Journal

[fathom hill]

Then what exactly is making him lose his memories?

[limpid summit]

Kings pass ferns

[wise sand]

Did pk have legs? You can see some on this statue

[silk dirge]

yes

pk has a body like hornet

we just rarely see it

[limpid summit]

Depictions of pk are sort of inconsistent but he might have had legs

[craggy smelt]

Green Prince said he and his partner hunted and killed the 'stag touched pale'
this story was the 'myth' that was made 'real' in memory, which Hornet fights (it's a 'myth' in that it's a story Hornet is hearing about and then living)
there is no reason to believe it was never real in any capacity

[lime osprey]

Not confirmed to not be soul related

[fathom hill]

yah exactly

[limpid summit]

Wdym soul related

I mean to the extent that everything is soul related sure they don’t give soul on a hit

[lime osprey]

The idea is, "pale" means being strongly related to or being of soul

[dawn sluice]

or that it’s white

[limpid summit]

Palestag might have been dramatized in GP’s memories to make him look cooler

Could have just been albino

[lime osprey]

Pale being referenced in something related to soul is too much of a common motif to just mean white

[dawn sluice]

soul is also white

[lime osprey]

Also Karmelita and Eva call Hornet pale without even seeing her lol

[dawn sluice]

eva doesn’t see people at all

[lime osprey]

doesn't disprove my point

[limpid summit]

Karmelita sees her what

[dawn sluice]

she sees crests

[limpid summit]

Her head is in profile we just don’t see it

Z axis

[limpid summit]

Pale lake?

Pale fern

Pale Lurker

So many uses of pale in a non soul context you are making things up

[craggy smelt]

just a pale fangirl

[lime osprey]

1-2 examples doesn't disprove there being like 30 examples of the motif going throughout the series

[dawn sluice]

yet another 4 letter word that causes the fans to go mad

[limpid summit]

Pale Rosary Necklace lmao

Pale literally means white or light colored

[lime osprey]

Fan of the Hallownest's regal caste, which is of pale beings

[dawn sluice]

correlation not causation

[lime osprey]

obscure one-liner in supplemental material. Doesn't disprove what i said also

[unique canopy]

Souls are pale, but not all pale are souls

[dawn sluice]

the pail king

[limpid summit]

What???

Canon content vs making stuff up idk what I believe

[silk dirge]

the wanderers journal is canon i believe

[lime osprey]

Mind you, the canon content does not disprove what I'm saying

[limpid summit]

What exactly are you saying

[dawn sluice]

the most meaningless argument to come out of the fandom

[fathom hill]

Ok i checked the dialogue, to be fair Pale is indeed a very specific word that 90% of the times means something that is related to pale beings, example referring to Hornet herself or the pale oil in particular

but there's some entries

[dawn sluice]

neither of you are right neither of you are wrong
agree to disagree

[limpid summit]

I just genuinely have no idea what the argument is

[dawn sluice]

pale

[lime osprey]

Bro is wondering why the highest form of currency, a currenct which takes the form of a religious emblem for a pale being, is referred to as, and mimics characteristics of being, pale

[fathom hill]

That with the "pale" grass things mentioned and the palestag that could be not pale

Again, names do matter, so palestag may not mean pale stag

But on the lace part

[limpid summit]

Pale rosary necklace is in reference to the white pearls that string is

They aren’t representative of any pale being rosaries came post GMS

[lime osprey]

Nah bro trust the pale oil is related to soul

[lime osprey]

proof?

[fathom hill]

There's an interesting but of dialogue that is not used in the game

[silk dirge]

pale oil i believe has some significance

[limpid summit]

They are prayer beads

[lime osprey]

yeah i'm not joking lol

[limpid summit]

Used by pilgrims

[fathom hill]

can't crop fuck

[silk dirge]

pale ore is also what mask shards are made from

[limpid summit]

Pilgrimages started after the Citadel was formed

[fathom hill]

anyways the text in italics means it's not in the game, but the files

[limpid summit]

It is?

Mask shards are AC though

Before PK even came around

[lime osprey]

you think GMS didn't have any devouts prior to the citadel?

[fathom hill]

Yah pale ore and pale oil may be just directly related to pale beings

Again the words is used a couple of times, but maybe it does have some footing in the Lace case

Palestag I'm not sure though

[limpid summit]

Pale Ore is related to pale beings yeah

TC said as much in an AMA a while ago

[fathom hill]

Or the grass thing, but for that I'd have to check the hollow knight dialogue

[limpid summit]

Pale ferns exist on their own

[lime osprey]

Pale oil has a correlation. Sylphsong is something that gives you infinite soul, and pale oil comes from sylphean slugs

[limpid summit]

The rosaries are emblems of the pilgrimage which was an effort to populate the citadel with workers

GMS didn’t demand worship from regular bugs

[fathom hill]

Yah I do believe Eva may be some kind of ascended sylph slug

[craggy smelt]

pale stag is described by Green Prince as the 'stag touched pale,' which suggested to me something touched by the power of a pale being, rather than the stag being a full one themselves
I figured it was something like the pale ore, said to have a connection with pale beings
ore, stag, those slugs that give the oil... they might all be touched by the power of pale beings

[fathom hill]

But we really don't know Eva's nature enough

or the slugs by that matter

[lime osprey]

are they emblems of pilgrimages or beads of prayer?

[unique tangle]

If ancient masks pale then what about spool fragments

[lime osprey]

I'm crying, how do you know this

[craggy smelt]

those are weaver made

[unique tangle]

Mooshka calls them a “pale artefact”

[fathom hill]

If i had to guess mainly cuz gms only mad ethe weavers for worship

the pilgrimage was a weavers doing mainly, not gms

[lime osprey]

The idea that GMS was just chilling and didn't have any devotees from regular bugs is silly

[fathom hill]

Giving there's idols of weavers but not gms

[limpid summit]

There is no example of pre Weaver worship by regular bugs

[fathom hill]

Unless the citadel's whole silk cocoon emblem counts but yknow, it really only represents the citadel rather than gms

[limpid summit]

GMS is like Radiance in the sense that she was worshipped by a very specific niche

[fathom hill]

The thing is we don't know what pharloom was before the citadel, and the citadel was again the weaver's doing

[lime osprey]

The pilgrims are attracted by the allure of GMS, Hornet says as much and it is part-way confirmed by Lace as well

[fathom hill]

we only have proof of gms making the weavers, the haunting is a recent thing

And name an example of a pilgrim even mentioning gms

[lime osprey]

GMS was entralling bugs before the citadel, the weavers specifically snatched power from her

[limpid summit]

The haunting dawg 💔

[fathom hill]

They mention the citadel, not gms

And again the citadel was weavers doing

i said that three times i have dementia

[lime osprey]

No, the thrall and inspiration Hornet mentions is seperate distinctly from the haunting

[limpid summit]

We are not given evidence of anyone but the Weavers worshipping GMS

[fathom hill]

no

[limpid summit]

Pale rosary necklace just refers to the color of the beads

Why is it so hard to accept that a word that means something in real life can also sometimes mean the same thing in HK

[fathom hill]

they are allured by the citadel while sane, and then they're haunted

[lime osprey]

"This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear."

[fathom hill]

and the haunting is a recent thing

Not by the time of the weavers

[lime osprey]

true, they are allured by the presence of GMS

[limpid summit]

This is a reference to the fact that GMS underlies everything as Hornet says

The “grandeur” of the land came from the Conductors

The citadel was Weaver made and of ugly stone at first

[fathom hill]

I mean, it depends on what do you mean by this

no pilgrim mentions gms as far as im aware

But tbf there is some supernatural aspect to it

[lime osprey]

the devotion of the pilgrims specifically was due to the presence and allure of GMS, misplaced onto the citadel and the weavers

[fathom hill]

But the pilgrims are only said to be "allured" by the bells if anything

Giving the first shrine dialogue with the caretaker

[limpid summit]

What?

GMS was literally asleep

[fathom hill]

And also the bells being a requirement for the pikgrimage through the blasted steps

[lime osprey]

Most higher beinga have a supernatural, primordial allure to bugs. Unn has it, Pale King has it, Radiance has it, Abyss Creature has it (if you wanna count that), and kinda NMH

[limpid summit]

The residents of the Nameless Town were lured by Weavers

[fathom hill]

And again, the pilgrims used to worship the weavers, no mention of gms

[limpid summit]

Are you still arguing that pale rosary necklace is in reverence to GMS

[fathom hill]

The only ones that do mention gms are the conductors

But the conductors were no pilgrims

[limpid summit]

Even the Vaultkeeper Pontiff didn’t know GMS existed why would these pilgrims be worshipping emblems of her

[lime osprey]

the pilgrims do not know what they are worshipping, they feel allured by the citadel for reasons they do not know

[limpid summit]

Pale refers to white in this case

[fathom hill]

Oh yeah Hornet is defo pale

[lime osprey]

Yes, it's original purpose, was mimicking the form of the divinity they worshipped.

[fathom hill]

There's a lot of references stablishing Hornet as pale in the references

[limpid summit]

Son 😭😭😭

[fathom hill]

what what

[limpid summit]

Then what are regular rosary necklaces

[fathom hill]

What did i say

[lime osprey]

They are still emblems of worship, but the highest form of currency being called "pale" was specifically in refference to GMS, or at least, her pale light (which bugs CAN see)

[limpid summit]

This is baseless

[trail wagon]

What is the difference between pale and higher beings?

[fathom hill]

Again the pilgrims never worshipped gms, they did the weavers

It's not a "oh they just don't know" they literally ignore her existance to a degree cuz the whole pilgrimage was weaver's doing

idk why are you trying to dispute this

Oh i could bring you proof if you want, but the timeline just doesn't fit

[unique canopy]

Just going to point out that the automated threefold melody lock references "our kingdom's divine heart" and "our sacred heart" as being in the Cradle. So the Citadel worship in the time of the Conductors mentioned a singular divine point of worship, not referring to GMS by name but also not referring to the Weavers either even though the Weavers were still known throughout the land.

[trail wagon]

Didn't they worship the Citadel? I haven't really seen any proof of anybody worshipping the Weavers except Weaver Effigies, and I wouldn't even necessarily say they "worshiped" them, rather asked to help

[lime osprey]

the citadel existed before GMS was put to sleep

[trail wagon]

I don't think so, it was built TO keep her asleep

[foggy fractal]

some are pale
some are higher beings
some are pale higher beings, some are just higher beings, some beings are just pale

there isn't any concrete rules/criteria

[lime osprey]

No, the weavers specifically took power away from GMS

[limpid summit]

The citadel was devised by the Weavers to entrap GMS

[trail wagon]

Ahahahahha

[trail wagon]

Yes, but it was built by the Weavers

[fathom hill]

And saying "oh she must have done it" is no proof either since higher beings are different between each other and who they have as followers, gms haunting thing is again, recent

[fathom hill]

No

prolly

[lime osprey]

alright whatever man lmao

[limpid summit]

You are definitively right

Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[trail wagon]

Mask Maker said they built it to keep their mother Sleep

[limpid summit]

This was the purpose of the Citadel

[trail wagon]

I agree that MAYBE there was SOME part of the Citadel prior to that

[limpid summit]

Eh

[trail wagon]

And they built it on the base of SOMETHING

[limpid summit]

Like what

Almost every part of the Citadel is built upon maintaining the song

[trail wagon]

Idk like some chambers for the Weavers to sing the song

[fathom hill]

Something something the weavers were made to play music to gms and then the weavers used it against her

[trail wagon]

Or something like that

[trail wagon]

Yeah

But the Citadel as a full-fledged Citadel was built afterwards

[limpid summit]

The only thing that could possibly predate the Citadel as something inconsequential to its purpose of trapping GMS is the Slab and even that is very unlikely

[fathom hill]

Gms is already said to be not fully grown no? maybe she just was already tied to the yarn ball, maybe she just couldn't see it until it was too late

The timeline is a bit confusing to me at this point, since idk how gms just let the weavers build the whole complex without getting suspicious

[lime osprey]

The idea that the weavers built the citadel and got all the pilgrims needed, including the entire caste, without GMS ever saying anything or doing anything about it and without no bug knowing, or being enthralled by her existence is killing me

[trail wagon]

I agree, I'm just saying that even if there was something, it wasn't really THE CITADEL

[fathom hill]

but again, maybe the whole weavenests were for that purpose

[limpid summit]

Well there was probably the weavenests

[fathom hill]

gms was asleep bro what will she do

[trail wagon]

It's literally what the Mask Maker says bro :c

[limpid summit]

Almost definitely the Weavenest

[limpid summit]

The pilgrims came later

[lime osprey]

the idea that GMS, a hgiher being, had no allure of her own and the Weavers were just able to replicate the allure of a HB, despite Hornet speifically saying the the devotion of the bugs were because of GMS presence, man whatever lol

[fathom hill]

the whole religion was made by the weavers, the pilgrimage was made by the weavers. The whole operation was giving to the conductors and they tried to give it to machines

[trail wagon]

Weren't they built to hide from the GMS?

[unique canopy]

The Weaver snare put her asleep, the Citadel was to keep her asleep so the Weavers could fuck off elsewhere

[fathom hill]

The whole citadel was made to keep her asleep, how would gms even have a role in that

[trail wagon]

I mean despite being a HB she's not too powerful as it seems

[limpid summit]

That is literally what occurred idk

And the Conductors did it again

[trail wagon]

Considering most people beat her on one of the first 5 tries ahahahaha

[lime osprey]

GMS maintained ritual song before the song that put her to sleep. the weavers probably built the citadel with the guise of it being in perpetuation of that song, instead of the song that pout her to sleep

[fathom hill]

They made some planning in there to defeat her, I'm sure in one of these there's the plan of getting her to sleep but I'm not sure

Some plans obviously failed before some of them fled

[lime osprey]

what is the proof that the weavers causes the devotion of the bugs

[fathom hill]

Like Eva

or the silkshot

[pastel timber]

the weavenests were made after they put her to sleep to come up with a permanent solution, none of which worked so they ran away

[limpid summit]

The weaver effigies? The weaver lore tablets that describe them watching over pilgrims?

[trail wagon]

Nameless Town

[limpid summit]

Weavers were worshipped as gods themselves

[lime osprey]

hmm this is truthful

[limpid summit]

Eh

[trail wagon]

There's a nedolin dialogue talking about sweet promises of the Weaver

[limpid summit]

The weavenests were likely made pre GMS

[trail wagon]

No

[fathom hill]

Again, how do we know the ritual song wasn't just for the weavers, the only ones we actively see actually performing it

[limpid summit]

Weavers who left pharloom for Hallownest and left the harp in the weavenest left while GMS was still awake

[trail wagon]

There's a lore tablet that explicitly says "her sight can't reach this place" meaning she is still awake at the time when this was written

[lime osprey]

okay that's different. they were goaded, and likely directly spoken to by the weavers, completely different than the force that compels the pilgrims.

[fathom hill]

We have no proof that regular bugs ever worshipped gms

[pastel timber]

the weavenest needolin dialogue says "to keep us free" specifically what else would that mean

[polar fiber]

needolin memory dialogue, "for her light eternal our song sustains"

[pastel timber]

not awake, aware, which we know she is while shes sleeping

[fathom hill]

Wait fr lemme check

[limpid summit]

This refers to the creation of the Citadel

[trail wagon]

What do you mean???

[limpid summit]

“Is it done?”

[pastel timber]

the needolin dialogue of them at the snare setter / murglin workshop bench refers to the creation of the citadel?

[limpid summit]

I thought that was Atla

[trail wagon]

But how would her sight reach this place?

[limpid summit]

Where a lore tablet says they escaped her gaze in order to break free of her web

[pastel timber]

similar dialogue in two places, both say "to keep us free"

[lime osprey]

Also, @limpid summit @fathom hill @trail wagon someone wrote abovem""our kingdom's divine heart" and "our sacred heart" as being in the Cradle. So the Citadel worship in the time of the Conductors mentioned a singular divine point of worship, not referring to GMS by name but also not referring to the Weavers either"

The bugs are allured by GMS and her presence

they feel the capital is holy because they are closer to her

[trail wagon]

That's literally what I said, Pilgrims worshiped the Citadel

[trail wagon]

Not any specific being

They might not even know who the GMS is

[limpid summit]

The heart of the Citadel was the Cradle they were not aware until later that it contained a being

[lime osprey]

I'm saying this that this proves GMS had devouts BEFORE she was put to sleep, because she allures bugs REGARDLESS

[trail wagon]

In fact they actually DON'T, that's what the poem at the beginning of the game says

[lime osprey]

#sk-lore message

[olive quartz]

i mean people feel things are holy irl without being physically close to god

[unique canopy]

The Citadel shifted the point of worship away from the Weavers, but specifically did not actually describe the "divine heart" that was in the Cradle

[limpid summit]

This does not prove what you say

[olive quartz]

hell sherma has a crisis of faith after getting the closest he ever gets to GMS

[pastel timber]

the pilgrims talk about a vague "call" to the citadel that they all feel, it could easily be a divine beings presence (one theyre linked to via imbued silk)

[limpid summit]

The divine heart of the Citadel is the Cradle because it’s the symbol of the Citadel and a source of silk

[fathom hill]

I meam yah the pilgrims final place to be was the cradle no? giving the elevator thing

[trail wagon]

Conductors controlled the Citadel after the departure of the Weavers

[silk dirge]

gms didnt care about the devotion of anyone else

[limpid summit]

The conductors did not know anything about GMS

[silk dirge]

her devotion was the weavers

[fathom hill]

Funnily enough Sherma bless his heart has that wavering of faith after he sees the sins of the citadel

[silk dirge]

radiance didnt fucking care who was devoted to her other than moths before pk

[olive quartz]

...or this is just symbolism for the abstract power of religion, to call the pilgrims for no clear reason

[unique canopy]

The Conductors did, they were keeping it from the others

[limpid summit]

GMS did not exert her influence directly her silk got into bugs inadvertently at first

[pastel timber]

the intro poem and ballador both imply that they learned after taking power though

[limpid summit]

Not right after taking power

[fathom hill]

Which for me implies that he holds the citadel overall as holy, not one specific god or being like weavers or the conductors

[pastel timber]

but at some point

[limpid summit]

The Vaultkeeper Pontiff NDD suggests he was unaware

[pastel timber]

pontiff absolutely was

only the conductors knew in the end

[trail wagon]

No because none of them could've learned the threefold melody

[fathom hill]

Yah the conductors absolutely did know abt gms

[limpid summit]

The pontiff would have to be powerful and well known

[olive quartz]

yeah sherma's belief is not because of divine influence but because he simply has been taught all his life that the citadel is holy

[limpid summit]

The weavers would not have told the Conductors about GMS directly if they hoped to maintain the citadel forever

[fathom hill]

Rominos poem is all about how theyre fucked now

[trail wagon]

Ballador did, he has a harp talking about Weavers passing their burden to the regular bugs to "bear forever"

[limpid summit]

The citadel is treated as holy because of its iconography not because of some subconscious GMS allure

[lime osprey]

if GMS has a, innate, holy allure to bugs, like most higher beings do, then yes it does lol

[hexed kindle]

Watch the mossbag video

[olive quartz]

it's implied that the secret was somehow hidden in the vaultkeeper's melody

[trail wagon]

And this

[pastel timber]

yeah balladors dialogue talks about how they took the mantle of rule greedily, they were either unaware of the truth of the situation or just didnt care

[limpid summit]

Are you fr directing me to the mossbag video 😭

[fathom hill]

Ok i was gonna ask, can you give the context for these?

[lime osprey]

the conductors know about GMS

[trail wagon]

The Vault Pontiff or whatever his name was knew it too

[unique canopy]

I think it's more likely that the Conductors were told about it by the Weavers from the beginning. In order to have the luxury of being able to fuck off, the Weavers would've needed to use the Citadel to shift focus of worship away from them and towards the Citadel. The Conductors would've had to have been in on that in order to make that shift successful, and were more likely chosen as the original Conductors for that reason.

[limpid summit]

She ensnared bugs in her Web due to the Haunting

[fathom hill]

Oh fair, but don't the statues say pilgrim?

[fathom hill]

Of course it would be a lie, most pikgrims wouldnt make it past the underworks

[limpid summit]

In her sleep she was not exerting her influence the Weavers were they were the ones being worshipped and the Conductors gilded the Citadel so the concept of the Citadel was then the subject of worship

[hexed kindle]

Might aswell

[lime osprey]

No, the pilgrims are inspired to devotion by her presence alone, as told by and confirmed by lace

[olive quartz]

like let's be clear, the vatican is not holy because god literally lives there but because there is widespread belief that it is holy

[fathom hill]

But yknow part of the lie the pilgrims would believe ig

[lime osprey]

She literally made and commanded Lace and Phantom in her sleep

[hexed kindle]

Only the weavers and conductors knew abt gms

[limpid summit]

This is a misinterpretation of the dialogue it’s simply in reference to the Haunting and the fact that GMS was indirectly responsible for all of the Citadel’s actions

[trail wagon]

It doesn't seem anybody has ever worshiped the Weavers explicitly

[unique canopy]

For the average pilgrim, the threefold melody would be an eternal carrot dangled over them. "Prove you're holy enough by receiving the blessings of the three who command the CItadel" and then you have to jump through a million hoops just to meet with one, let alone receive the melody.

[limpid summit]

Are you still arguing that Pale Rosary Necklaces refer to GMS and not the white pearls on the necklace lol

[fathom hill]

weavers idols

[olive quartz]

does it make more sense for team cherry to be saying "the trappings of organized religion can be used to manipulate a population" or "organized religion is simply a natural consequence of divine power"

[lime osprey]

She specifically contrasts the allure AND the haunting: "This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear"

[unique canopy]

The effigies and multiple references to the weavers say otherwise

[olive quartz]

the giant shrines to the desd weavers we get all our abilities from lol

[trail wagon]

Yes though, but I mean the Weavers did not expect anybody to reach it

[limpid summit]

I mean in your interpretation she just isn’t correct

[fathom hill]

also could you tell me in which needolin memory does this happen

[limpid summit]

Even post GMS the Citadel was barren and simple

[trail wagon]

Although yeah, my bad

[limpid summit]

The grandeur of the land wasn’t due to GMS

[polar fiber]

the one where you get ht needolin

[fathom hill]

Widows?

[unique canopy]

Post-Widow

[hexed kindle]

Weaver wanna be worshipped and we're but when first sinner said they arent gods the weavers egos were so buttburt they sealed her like aizen

[fathom hill]

She is a weaver though

weavers were made to worship gms through song

[trail wagon]

Yeah, sound about right

[fathom hill]

Nothing to do with the pilgrimage or the citadel

[lime osprey]

Organized religion kinda is consequence of some weird, innate psychological concoction of emotions that are interpreted and rationalized as holy by us. Spirituality and religion is such a universally emergent factor in civilization cause of this.

[fathom hill]

Citadel used song indeed, but that's cuz idk

weavers like being ironic ig lol

[olive quartz]

do you think spirituality and religion are universally emergent factors of literal real gods in the attic

[fathom hill]

And it worked, also, but mainly cuz it's ironic

I'd know

[olive quartz]

or more relevantly, do you think this is what team cherry wants to convey

[lime osprey]

I love the idea that Hornet is just lying for no reaosn and Lace doesn't correct her for no reason and she is never corrected throughout the course of the whole game

[limpid summit]

What are you even arguing

[mint stratus]

It also reminds me of how male spiders irl will pluck a females web to let her know to please not eat him while he’s courting her :)

[lime osprey]

TC conveying that real emotions and spirituality can be manipulated for nefarious reasons? yeah lol

[lime osprey]

that Hornet is right that the devotion of the pilgrims is BECAUSE of GMS presence

[fathom hill]

Again where's the proof that common bugs ever worshipped gms before the citadel

[olive quartz]

she's not lying, she is just fundamentally not a pilgrim. she has repeated conversations with pilgrims where she is like "why are you going on this dumb stupid dangerous pilgrimage without even a weapon" and the pilgrims literally tell her "you wouldn't understand"

[fathom hill]

where are the gms idols, poems or anything

[limpid summit]

The grandeur of the land and the devotion of the bugs are signs of GMS’s deep roots in the history of the Citadel. Not because GMS had always exuded some made up pale aura that attracted bugs

[lime osprey]

So you think Hornet is just wrong

[fathom hill]

we have those for weavers, and the citadel

[olive quartz]

broadly yes, the pilgrimage is not just a result of divine influence

[lime osprey]

she specifically attributes the devotion as being because of the thrall of a higher being

[fathom hill]

That's really funny

[limpid summit]

She canonically can’t know the Citadel’s history by this time

[olive quartz]

team cherry's message is that religions are self-perpetuating. in silksong God is literally asleep, not to mention evil, there is no reason to worship her, and the citadel is falling apart and full of zombies but still worshipped regardless

[limpid summit]

So it makes sense for her to attribute everything to GMS directly

[lime osprey]

why would she need to?

[limpid summit]

When in fact it is still GMS’s fault but not directly

[lime osprey]

God is literally not asleep tho. She birthed life while sleeping and commanded that same life

[limpid summit]

The citadel is a story of different bugs escaping oppression and becoming oppressors

[mint stratus]

Sleep for a god is weird like that

[olive quartz]

team cherry has not nailed down exactly what gms can or cannot do while asleep but she is explicitly described as asleep

[hexed kindle]

Then the weavers grew tired and sealed gms by constructing the citadel. The citadel is a cage of silk and song. The emblem of the citadel we see throughout the game is litreally the cocoon where gms is and the citadel used song to trap gms not just the weavers song but the song throughout all of pharloom which is why there is so many bells and non diagetic music.Then when the weavers realised oh gms will not sleep forever they handed the burden to 3 core bugs the architects the conductors and vaultkeepers and only the conductors where informed of gms existence

[dawn sluice]

to be honest people weren’t really worshipping god
they were worshipping weavers

[frosty gate]

What are we arguing

[stoic moth]

not necessarily 'because of'

she identifies devotion as a sign of a higher being's existence, but it's not like GMS magically made them devoted

[dawn sluice]

stupid stuff

[dawn sluice]

like always

[frosty gate]

Nothing new then

[lime osprey]

Higher Beings do, in fact, magically make bugs devoted

[olive quartz]

whether the worship of the pilgrims is entirely a consequence of GMS' influence or if it is a commentary on irl organized religion

[trail wagon]

I feel like lore-wise Silksong gives mixed signals

[hexed kindle]

^^^^^

[mint stratus]

D’y’all ever wonder if karak was intentionally drained of water by the citadel to destroy them?

[olive quartz]

question why do the pilgrims not worship GMS but unanimously worship the citadel itself

[lime osprey]

pilgrimage isn't entirely because of GMS, it is however, fueled by her allure. As, without it, the bugs would not be attracted and pulled towards the Citadel

[fathom hill]

Also something to note, she obviously says this as a reference to the radiance, given the similarities with the haunting and the infection

[trail wagon]

Perhaps the TC did that deliberately to make the lore discourse more engaging 👀

[limpid summit]

@lime osprey The Weavers lured pilgrims to the Citadel for service with their positions as false gods
The Conductors lured people by gilding the Citadel and turning it into a place of worship as a concept by itself
All this time, GMS was the root of the issue but she was not literally drawing bugs to the Citadel, no pilgrims were aware of her and the Conductors didn’t even understand her at first.

[hexed kindle]

It started to dry out before that probably due to climate a little but the citadel amped it up by 100

[fathom hill]

which again, the haunting is a recent thing

[lime osprey]

they do not know about her

[olive quartz]

sherma does not give a single shit about GMS. we never even see him at the literal door to the attic where God is sleeping

[stoic moth]

great point twin

[lime osprey]

The pilgrims dont even mention weavers in the game (well, most of them dont)

[mint stratus]

They don’t really know of her, silk in their bloodline draws them to the citadel all the same

[frosty gate]

It's the latter

[limpid summit]

It’s a story of organized religion that got out of hand - the people at the top subconsciously draw people in one way or another without direct divine intervention

[olive quartz]

sherma's devotion wavers for the only time in the game when he is closest to the sleeping god in the attic

[hexed kindle]

👆👆👆

[limpid summit]

They don’t mention GMS either, your point?

Shakra and other long lived bugs mention stories of the Weavers they just aren’t in power anymore so no one is worshipping them

[lime osprey]

they're being compelled by forces beyond their comprehension and that force is the allure of GMS as a higher being, an allure we've seen other Higher Beings have

[limpid summit]

Nameless Town

[fathom hill]

Hornet's not fond of higher beings imposing their wills on bugs in search of worship, it could be a reference to the pale king which seems to have had more merit to the worship but the pale king didn't have a mechanism like the haunting or the infection so i doubt it

[stoic moth]

no they don't?

pale king gives bugs minds, but it is their choice to devote themselves to him or not (see mantises)

[limpid summit]

The Weavers did all that themselves

[limpid summit]

Mantises probably were around before but this is still true

[hexed kindle]

why the FUCK would gms drag in pilgrims to sing a song THAT WOULD SEAL HER

[frosty gate]

Also the Mosskin

[olive quartz]

tanco do you think team cherry is trying to convey "the pilgrims are coerced to go on this stupid dangerous pilgrimage that will almost certainly kill them because they are being exploited" or "the pilgrims are actually basically correct that the further they go the closer they get to god"

[stoic moth]

great point twin

[stoic moth]

not quite as good of an example considering they have unn

[lime osprey]

It is something bugs can resist. But like the radiance, some bugs just give in lol

[mint stratus]

I assumed a few still worship them considering the moss towns tablet?

[limpid summit]

Those are old

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah but they rejected Pk, contrary to the Moths

[lime osprey]

I dont think its somehting she can just turn off bro

[stoic moth]

fair enough

[fathom hill]

huh?

Wym

[hexed kindle]

This convo is dumb I actually can't

[frosty gate]

She can't "turn off" the "allure"

[limpid summit]

Throwing away the pretty clear interpretation of “the citadel is a warped symbol of power that became an object of worship in itself despite its flawed nature” that is clear through bugs like Sherma in favor of a “the citadel literally draws bugs in because GMS has a magic beacon wow” seems a bit surface level

[olive quartz]

ok ur arguing that silksong has lovecraftian themes and i follow you!! it totally does!! but lovecraft is not trying to comment on real organized religions while team cherry is. the main currency is literally prayer beads called rosaries. there is a confessional booth

[limpid summit]

Sherma mentions the allure of the Citadel as a concept multiple times never hints at a being like GMS

[lime osprey]

The beacon of the pale king existed long after his death

[polar fiber]

what beacon??

[lime osprey]

it is not something actively perpetuated by HBs

[limpid summit]

Beacons are a Wyrm quality not a HB or pale being (lol) quality

[olive quartz]

the lovecraftian themes do exist but they take a back seat to the commentary on actual organized religion

[stoic moth]

bro is just making shit up 💔💔💔

[limpid summit]

“Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall”

[frosty gate]

Which, to be fair, she probably has something like that, but it's not part of what's going on.
We don't even know what she does

[polar fiber]

ohhh right

[fathom hill]

Oh fair, ig we have some cases of higher beings drawing bug to them

But again, that does not imply gms ever did that

Like consciously if it makes sense

[lime osprey]

the idea that these lovecraftian themes are in despite, and not apart of the general commentary is a take I cannot understand for the life of me

[unique canopy]

Completely tangential but Lovecraft absolutely was commenting on a bunch of real stuff including real organized religions, guy was a complete basketcase

[frosty gate]

Unn?

[limpid summit]

I think the haunting is GMS superseding the metaphorical worship aspect of the citadel to become its literal monarch but she isn’t treated as the arbiter of every story decision for it

[fathom hill]

What we do know she did consciously is the weavers

[stoic moth]

we see gms pulling bugs into her thrall

it is called the haunting

[limpid summit]

That wasn’t a beacon she literally brought them to life

[olive quartz]

(if it wasn't clear, i don't know your familiarity with christianity, the 'rosaries' and the literal confession booth pretty obviously point towards the citadel being an allegory for primarily Catholicism)

[hexed kindle]

THERE IS NO MAGIC ALLURE TO BEGIN WITH the only reason pilgrims came to the citadel was to sing and reap the benefits this was concocted by the weavers WEAVERS and not by some supernatural force by word of MOUTH they lured pilgrims to the citadel with great promises not silk string magic

[lime osprey]

Hornet makes a distinction between the devotion inspired by her and the haunting

[frosty gate]

Fair, I guess you would worship your creator
I was gonna argue but I've got nothing

[limpid summit]

I mean she is wrong then

[lime osprey]

Okay but Hornet says the opposite tho

[limpid summit]

Sherma worships the Citadel as an entity and his worship wanes after Whiteward

In your interpretation she is just objectively incorrect

[fathom hill]

where

[hexed kindle]

Where

[frosty gate]

I need you to point out the dialogue

[hexed kindle]

Show me the text

[olive quartz]

ok yeah fair but i think lovecraft was more saying 'wouldnt it be fucked up if religion was about real actual gods' than 'the catholic church is keeping God asleep in the attic and thats why people become catholic'

[mint stratus]

Wyrms seem to marked mainly by their fluid transient natures alongside their prescience,

the pale king was specifically called the ‘white’ wyrm, so I wonder if other wyrms weren’t all pale, but simply higher beings?

[lime osprey]

" Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear." @frosty gate

[limpid summit]

Fool child. You still think me blind to the form of your liege? Having come this far?
Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.
Hornet: Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.

[olive quartz]

she has been in pharloom for perhaps a week if you played slowly

[lime osprey]

The idea that Hornet is just wrong is still baffling me lol

[limpid summit]

This is the dialogue you are referencing by this time she can’t have met Mask Maker or First Sinner or anything that would explain GMS or the Citadel

[olive quartz]

she does not have shit totally figured out. she is bluffing

[unique canopy]

What Hornet is referring to is the state of the Citadel and pilgrims in the present when the game happens, not what the state of Pharloom was like when the Weavers still thought they were her divine children

[fathom hill]

Dawg we discussed this already

[frosty gate]

I don't really know what this proves

[limpid summit]

Characters can be confidently wrong, that’s just part of unpacking the story
For example, in HK WL is wrong about TK being free of blemishes

[hexed kindle]

"AND the curse" the curse aka the HAUNTING is SEPARATE the use of the word and implies its separate to the devotion of the pilgrims

[frosty gate]

The bugs are devoted... to the Citadel

[lime osprey]

"devotion of its bugs.. AND the curse that befalls them" The devotion of the pilgrims and the haunting are two seperate things

[unique canopy]

The devotion, curse, and allure are The Haunting, that's what Hornet is referring to. She's not wrong, she's describing what's going on in the present

[fathom hill]

read the rest of it
"Fool child. You still think me blind to the form of your liege? Having come this far?
Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.
Hornet: Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
Hornet: Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both"

this is clearly a reference to the fact Hornet saw this before with the radiance

[olive quartz]

@lime osprey is this clear to you, i legitimately want to make sure you follow that a lot of silksong is a pretty blatant analogy for catholicism

[lime osprey]

this is literally what im arguing lol

[fathom hill]

and again the haunting is recent holy shit I'll lose it

[hexed kindle]

WELL NO FUCKING SHIT

[hexed kindle]

EXACTLY

[limpid summit]

The “grandeur of the land” is at least not as a result of GMS objectively

[mint stratus]

Sometimes I feel as though there should be two silksong lore discussion chats

[frosty gate]

No.
"Devotion of its bugs , and the curse"

[limpid summit]

It was the Conductors that gave the Citadel its grandeur

[frosty gate]

That comma is there

[lime osprey]

Yeah sure, i agree it is a commentary on organized religion. And that commentary is not made lesser by bugs being inspied by an innate thrall to praise and devote

[limpid summit]

You got a question we can try and answer it

[frosty gate]

The lounge and the fighting ring

[fathom hill]

Ok so this is actually interesting

[olive quartz]

sure but it is not the primary theme. the catholicism analogies are not team cherry trying to suggest that real people become catholic because of an inherent draw towards the real physical God in the vatican's attic

[mint stratus]

I just feel it’s a bit too active, goes at a bit of a break neck pace is all

[limpid summit]

@lime osprey this is before Hornet can explore under Grand Gate or talk to Isamor and learn that the citadel was not grand as a result of GMS

[hexed kindle]

"sweet promises whispers" implies they were lured

[limpid summit]

There’s nothing grand about dead Pharloom besides the Citadel and that is objectively not due to GMS

So she is incorrect in her assumption as you interpret it

[fathom hill]

I'm willing to juggle through topics so ask away

[frosty gate]

Even then, she's not saying anything out of the ordinary

[limpid summit]

True

[fathom hill]

But please if you do @ me sometimes i miss stuff

[hexed kindle]

Pharloom isn't dead its in chaos

[frosty gate]

By Weavers, to be specific

[hexed kindle]

Ok mb sorry

[hexed kindle]

Yeah frgt to add that

[olive quartz]

yeah another one of the needolin lines is "the weaving ones beckon"

[fathom hill]

skill issue, i actually like the variation of tone

[unique canopy]

There's plenty grand about Pharloom below the Citadel, especially considering the inhabitants are being cursed and could theoretically return to normal with the curse lifted

[lime osprey]

The idea that every civilization ever had simply just made up the idea of spiritualism and religion and that there isn't an emergent tendency for humans to worship derived from some innate, powerful desire in the human condition for meaning and devotion

[fathom hill]

Oh idk if we are sure of this

[visual turret]

Wonder how they did that because of the surface's barrenness and the border caves are really tall

[fathom hill]

Higher beings may have some things that could lure bugs, but idk if weavers did have that

[polar fiber]

they could have climbed yk

[mint stratus]

I just wondered if all wyrms are pale, or if the pale king being referred to as the ‘white’ wyrm is significant
Might point to wyrms not inherently being pale but simply a species of very powerful beings with transient natures and foresight

[hexed kindle]

Idk where the actual HELL you guys figured out GMS was luring pilgrims to the citadel when it never says that shit

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t say so everything is built around the Citadel and pilgrimage the only thing Hornet could feasibly be referring to is the Citadel and anyway like anything else would be as a result of the Old Hearts and not GMS lol

[lime osprey]

Hornet says it

[visual turret]

The Weavers could've had a hidden Weavenest or structure so they could get from and to the surface

[limpid summit]

Hornet is wrong

[olive quartz]

this is not what i'm saying, i'm saying that the citadel's commentary on catholicism is strongest if team cherry intends for the citadel to be read as an entirely self-perpetuating and self-gratifying enterprise with no actual divinity to be found

[lime osprey]

and Higher beings typically do that

[limpid summit]

That is not an explicit quality of higher beings

[unique canopy]

Hornet is describing the present, not Pharloom's pre-history

[fathom hill]

Yah im oretty sure the consensus is that wyrms aren't pale inherently

[visual turret]

Like the elevator on WN Atla

[limpid summit]

And regardless GMS would not do it in her slumber

[fathom hill]

pale king is a special case

[fathom hill]

don't say this 💔

[limpid summit]

I mean she is

[fathom hill]

I like Hornet shes cool

[limpid summit]

No what it’s not bad she makes an educated cuess

[lime osprey]

That is simply just not true though. It is strongest if it features bugs overcoming whatever internal force is driving them towards devotion by realization and mindfulness

[limpid summit]

She assigns the grandeur of the land to GMS and has no way of knowing that GMS was not the one who made the Citadel gilded
She has no concept of the rulership by the time she meets lace in coral chambers

[hexed kindle]

She's clearly talking about the haunting im actually going to have an aneurysm

[lime osprey]

It's not like GMS would've ever not allured bugs. She just does that because she's a HB

[stoic moth]

how many higher beings have we seen?

unn: doesn't do that
nightmare heart: doesn't do that
pale king: doesn't do that
gms: doesn't *passively*do that
radiance: doesn't *passively* do that

[frosty gate]

Deleted in 3

[lime osprey]

Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, AND the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.

[frosty gate]

2

[limpid summit]

WL: definitely does not do that

[frosty gate]

1 (Fuck)

[limpid summit]

Dude she’s just straight incorrect idk what to tell you

[fathom hill]

I mean we do see abandoned needolins in the cradle, but idk if thsoe were abandoned after the weavers succesfully put gms to sleep or after they fled (or died)

[frosty gate]

There's a comma, it is a very important comma

[fathom hill]

Also Widow is specifically a weaver that still worships gms, so her using the needolin still may imply that

[limpid summit]

Explain why the grandeur of the Citadel is as a result of GMS and why Hornet is correct in saying as such without knowing anything about the Conductors, the Weaver-made Citadel, etc

[lime osprey]

Unn: does that, allures mosskin, people stray from the greenpath and get lost to her, and also calls our Shade
NMH: Also does this, it pulls bugs into their troupe and ritual
Pale King: you've ggotta be joking

[mint stratus]

Honestly it’s hard to define what is and isn’t inherent to higher beings
besides power perhaps

[lime osprey]

She is bound

[fathom hill]

did the pale king really say this

[lime osprey]

yes

[fathom hill]

cool

[lime osprey]

Also, abyss creature, or whatever lifeblodd HB exists, does it, and seemingly passively

[olive quartz]

okay i can kind of understand you here but like. this theme of rejecting divine power is simply not present in silksong. we have no examples of a pilgrim having a crisis of faith, saying no i don't believe in this pilgrimage anymore, and simply stopping, successfully resisting that divine influence. from a narrative perspective sherma, the primary pilgrim we follow, completes his pilgrimage, receives no divine reward and yet continues to regard the citadel as holy, and is ultimately narratively rewarded by A. surviving and B. gaining authority as the caretaker of songclave

[unique canopy]

She geeks out over the Deep Docks metallurgy by itself, and that's without getting into all the assorted flora and fauna that she speaks positively of. Hornet is not the kind of person to only care about ornate gilded buildings when speak about the grandeur of an entire land

[hexed kindle]

And implies the haunting and devotion is separate the curse refers to the haunting which came WAY later

[quasi latch]

What causes the collapse of the Silksong Citadel society? Why did they go from religious/pilgrims to mindcontrol and madness

[limpid summit]

When your only evidence for a theory about the history of Pharloom comes from a single line of dialogue from a foreign bug who doesn’t know Pharloom’s history when she says such a thing you might need to reevaluate

[olive quartz]

silksong simply does not feature common bugs standing up to higher beings

[limpid summit]

How far are you through the game?

[quasi latch]

done

[hexed kindle]

Gms simply woke up and started the haunting and the weavers were gone and so they were practically vulnerable

[olive quartz]

well, partially woke up. she was still sleeping but less deeply than before

[limpid summit]

The citadel was constructed by the weavers to cage GMS but they turned it into an object of worship to perpetuate the cycle, they eventually died and gave the worship to the conductors who kept the pilgrimages going but also messed with silk to make themselves immortal, GMS woke up angry and decided to control the bugs

[hexed kindle]

Not confirmed to be a higher being a lifeblood higher being isn't even canon yet

[fathom hill]

gms woke up basically, the haunting is the effect of gms. The poem at the beginning of the game has a conductor basically telling others that they're fucked, since she will wake up soon and impose her will

[limpid summit]

If you want more specifics we’re all here

[hexed kindle]

Yeah

[lime osprey]

Sherma is rewarded not for maintaining faith, but gaining autonomy and initiative outside of it, and not solely relying on his religion to help everyone when he is still plenty capable of helping. A much more realistic and nuanced religious journey than one simply denouncing their faith

[stoic moth]

Idk bro I think you are misinterpreting

the grandeur and devotion can be seen as symptoms of a higher being's presence, but it's not like either of them are created magically through higher being powers

bugs are conciously choosing to become devoted, often out of the totally secular motivation of wanting to enjoy the benefits of society

the grandeur comes as a result of the labor of the bugs that are choosing to participate in whatever social contract the specific higher being is offering

[fathom hill]

Or her beastly retaliation or soemthing

[frosty gate]

It's likely she fully woke up but she was still sealed

[stoic moth]

hornet isn't wrong, but your interpretation of her dialogue line isn't accurate either

[hexed kindle]

Might I add the weavers were playing as false higher beings

[olive quartz]

i mean she can clearly bust out of that cocoon at any time. she only wakes up when hornet gets right up in her face and shouts at her

[fathom hill]

Honestly I love the way we have the divine/beast theme in higher beings and both the weavers side and wyrm/pale side, the weavers beings grown for beasts, playing music and wearing long dresses, and yet when they fight they use claws

[lime osprey]

That is just not happening idk what to tell you. I dont think the bugs of Hallownest just simply decided to become infected

[fathom hill]

Hornet being called a beast every other day

gms being called a beast too

really cool

[hexed kindle]

This convo is so dumb I can barely be asked to explain it

[frosty gate]

Or she's just saving strength, it'd be kinda weird that she was sleeping until that very specific moment

[hexed kindle]

This isn't even a debate?
Deadass

[limpid summit]

I don’t think she is entirely correct either, though. She just arrived at the Citadel and doesn’t have enough of an idea of who rules and its story to make an educated guess about GMS being the cause. She just sees Haunting (obviously product of a HB) and assumes every opulent thing in Pharloom is as a direct result of her actions, which makes sense to her because PK

She isn’t correct for the reasons she thinks she is

[fathom hill]

I genuinely think we've been through circles for like half an hour

[frosty gate]

What even are you trying to argue here

[lime osprey]

Lace literally confirms she is right tho "Tch... Hahahaa. Marvelous! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings"

[hexed kindle]

It feels like talking to a wall

[limpid summit]

Read that dialogue again

It’s literally just Lace saying “oh so you know what a HB is”

[olive quartz]

yes but we simply see no examples of denunciation of faith aside from perhaps the two lines of dialogue we see from random pilgrims. you'd think if the game had a theme of resisting actual divine influence team cherry would find the time to add a character who explores "yeah God is real but i don't worship Her"

[stoic moth]

that would fall under the "curse" segment of hornet's 3 symptoms, just like the haunting

the haunting and the infection are in fact rituals being cast through higher being magic

the moth society lead by the radiance was not created through the infection. (otherwise we'd be seeing infected bugs constructing statues like the one at hallownest's peak)

[fathom hill]

that's what happens when you let your biases hold your argument rather than just admitting that you were wrong man

[hexed kindle]

Yh

[fathom hill]

like I'm all for alternative explanation for thing but idk

[limpid summit]

Tanco is arguing that the Pilgrims serve GMS not simply because of the perpetuating system of worship built up by Weavers and Conductors as a larger than life concept but because GMS has a subconscious magical aura beacon that draws pilgrims in and they were always worshipping directly

[lime osprey]

Because the idea isn't to resist divine influence, it's to not be pacified or blindly led by it

[stoic moth]

just because higher beings sometimes use crazy magic to turn huge amounts of bugs into zombie drones doesn't mean every time a bug works for them they are being compelled by magic

[olive quartz]

ok but the base assumption here is that divine influence exists. i do not think TC is trying to convey that with silksong

[hexed kindle]

Yeah man..

[fathom hill]

and also pilgrims can be drawn and worship non holy things

like the weavers or the citadel

[limpid summit]

GMS’s direct HB power is represented through the Haunting

The Citadel’s perpetuation represents her subconscious aim as a thorn in the side of the Weavers and Conductors

[lime osprey]

TC is using the innate divine influence that HBs have on bugs as an analogue to the universal emergence of religion and spirituality in human civilization

[hexed kindle]

I said this 5 times 😂😂😂😂😂 this has also been said by others 😂😂😂 why is this a debate😂😂😂😂

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t have to be literal making it so sort of dumbs it down arguably

[lime osprey]

the pilgrims dont serve GMS tho

[limpid summit]

They do not no

[hexed kindle]

We fucking said this

Oh my god

[limpid summit]

They serve the Citadel because the Weavers and Conductors prop it up as an object of worship

[fathom hill]

?????

[limpid summit]

Irrespective of GMS directly

[fathom hill]

I'll fucking lose it

I'm done

[hexed kindle]

I already have

[lime osprey]

they are allured by her and her presence, but they do not know what they are allured by and misplace the object of their devotion towards the citadel

[frosty gate]

It's late people

[limpid summit]

What is your evidence for this claim

[frosty gate]

Let's all go to sleep

[lime osprey]

Hornet, the strength and preseverence of the pilgrims, the cradle being called the heart of the kingdom, yadda yadda

and also, that HBs enthrall bugs by their presence historically

which is, too, confirmed by hornet

[olive quartz]

fundamentally disagree because the gods of hollow knight are physical. the mosskin don't worship unn because of a longstanding cultural tradition but because she is literally chilling in that lake over there. you can see her

[hexed kindle]

Im sorry if I come off as disrespectful im not listening to this shit we have went over this tonnes of times I am not reading this. This convo is dumb I cant be bothered

[lime osprey]

People do not become religious because of longstanding cultural traditions though

[fathom hill]

Tanco i like you but please don't do this to me

[olive quartz]

the gods of hollow knight are essentially like the greek gods present in the percy jackson series. as much as i love that series, the gods in it are superheroes, not a thoughtful meditation on faith

[limpid summit]

Hornet is incorrect for the reasons already specified
Strength and perseverance is just a side effect of religious devotion lol
Heart of the kingdom does refer to GMS but moreso her position as the heart of the Citadel’s worship not some literal alluring jingling set of keys
And higher beings enthralling bugs “historically” doesn’t mean that every action in their name directly or indirectly is as a result of magic mind alteration every time
Putting higher beings into a box like that is exactly why TC only said “they exist above all others” you can’t really make a one size fits all HB power set

[olive quartz]

(i don't believe they're ever called gods until godmaster, even. the generic term in hollow knight is 'higher beings' which is essentially another way of phrasing 'super human')

[hexed kindle]

Idk why hornet is being took as factual and concrete evidence but as a character she can be wrong for God's sake

[limpid summit]

And like unn is just called a normal god I wouldn’t use the godseeker’s definitions for anything

[lime osprey]

Yes, I believe there were pilgrims, or just lesser bugs, worshipping GMS or whatever pale light they believed they say and went towards, however currently, and since the citadel has been built, they have stopped.

[fathom hill]

Why is Hornet wrong again

[limpid summit]

She was raised by WL of course she can be wrong…truth nuke

[olive quartz]

they do though. this is how religion works

[fathom hill]

is this the fucking devotion line again i swear to god

[fathom hill]

Fine

[olive quartz]

the greek gods were worshipped in their time because of longstanding cultural traditions, not because they literally existed and created the world like unn or the radiance

[limpid summit]

She assigns the grandeur and devotion of Pharloom to GMS directly connecting it to the Haunting
By this time she doesn’t know about the history of the Citadel she has a good reason to guess it’s all GMS’s fault but she will later learn it is not

[fathom hill]

proof of this?

[hexed kindle]

Please shoot me with a 12 gauge 🙏🙏

[lime osprey]

No, religion and spirituality is inherently emergent from just being a human being. If brainwashed a bunch of people and left them alone, they would eventually find religion

[limpid summit]

What

[olive quartz]

would they find the same religion? would they find any religion that exists today?

[lime osprey]

why would the history matter? Do the pilgrims love history that much?

[fathom hill]

we are going in circles

[lime osprey]

they would find religion, as in, they would worship something as divine

[limpid summit]

What are you even saying

[olive quartz]

i agree that spirituality is inherent to humans, but organized religion is a distinctly cultural phenomenon

[stoic moth]

huh

95% of religious people became religious because they were raised in a religious community

it is comparatively very rare to 'find god' and become spiritual on your own accord

[limpid summit]

Your only real dialogue evidence for your theory is Hornet who does not actually understand the history of the Citadel and how it drew bugs in by nature of just being the Citadel

[olive quartz]

and the citadel is a metaphor for organized religion, not inherent spirituality

[fathom hill]

tanco please proof that there were regular bugs worshipping gms before the haunting or the citadel

[lime osprey]

yes, and organize religion takes advantage of this innate spirituality, as what happens in Silksong