sk-lore

[misty stirrup]

gms is misandrist , therefore she only took the females

[viscid ridge]

Idk, i assume there also aren't male pharlids

[misty stirrup]

Imagine how monkeypawd she would be if she finally had a loyal child

[marble oasis]

the question is whether she turned male pharlids into female weavers

[misty stirrup]

only for it to be a son

[vestal swan]

And the answer is no nothing suggests such an event happened

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it

[misty stirrup]

every instance of weavers we get , they are all female

[marble oasis]

there must be

[misty stirrup]

it s only "sister, spider"

[marble oasis]

yeah i know

[stray fog]

Pharlids would've been extinct then

[viscid ridge]

I know there must be, but idk how. My guess is that there is another type of pharlid that births all the pharlid we see in the game, like a pharlid queen, who has the only task to create more pharlids, kinda like the moss mothers

[misty stirrup]

maybe they have male descendents? but they don't have silk powers

[vestal swan]

There's plenty of species IRL that basically just clone themselves without an opposite sex pair, it's not unreasonable to think one of those could exist in universe but it's mostly jellyfish and lizards not spiders

[misty stirrup]

I know hunter from hk is weaver related... I just can't prove it

[marble oasis]

how do you think an insect queen reproduces

#feminist

[frosty gate]

Okaay.. What of it?

[stray fog]

TIL that jellyfish use asexual reproduction

[viscid ridge]

Idk its weird

[vestal swan]

The old fashioned way

[viscid ridge]

Cause i always figured that the curse that weavers have, os a result of them all being female, and all being related, meaning they can't easily produce more offspring. Only when they breed with other bugs can they have half spawn, but Hornet also mentions she has the same curse, so idk the specifics

[stray fog]

Hornet has the same curse because shes female and all weavers are female

[marble oasis]

it's not just that, reproducing is also said to be "painful" for them

[misty stirrup]

it's also an allegory to irl problems of giving birth due to head to hip ratio

[viscid ridge]

Yeah its something in their biology

Or nature

[vestal swan]

And hornet mentions because she has had male partners in the past and apparently failed to have children as well, based on the giant conch fly and Eva dialogue, wyrm biology didn't do shiiiiiit

[marble oasis]

just mates

[vestal swan]

She talks about having mates and she talks about not being able to have children, the conclusion is that she had male mates

[marble oasis]

To pair with another is a base instinct, and one that brings some bugs great joy. I once sought similar union, but of my own mates none could match my lifespan.

where does she talk about not having children?

[vestal swan]

In the dialogue about the curse with Eva, saying that she too is afflicted

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but i think she mated with anyone, but based on her dialogue with eva it seems she mated with a male bug atleast once in her life, because she said she suffers the same curse

I also find the thought that Hornet wanted a child, but cant to be very heartbreaking

[vestal swan]

Yes this is what I just said

[vestal swan]

Makes a little sense why she put a baby in her pocket when she found one

[marble oasis]

i sort of read "victim of the curse" as she was victimised by the burden on her as the only weaver child

[stray fog]

The twisted bud?

[marble oasis]

but it does make more sense to read it as she also cannot conceive

[viscid ridge]

Yeah no its definitely supposed to be interpreted as she cannot give birth

[frosty gate]

Does she put any other babies in her pockets?

[marble oasis]

cogflies?

[misty stirrup]

I'm not sure the dialogue is meant to be taken as literally, read literally it'd imply that Hornet has a child , as she knows it's painful

[viscid ridge]

That little Hornet statue i guess 🤣

[stray fog]

Idk that's why I asked

[frosty gate]

It would imply she doesn't have a child

Because the curse wouldn't let her

[vestal swan]

And if it was something she overcame she definitely would have stated it

[misty stirrup]

the curse is about childbirth being difficult

[vestal swan]

Yes

[marble oasis]

how would she know it's painful though

[tepid mountain]

It at most implies that she attempted to have a child, that doesn’t mean it was successful.

[vestal swan]

Conceiving one even

[marble oasis]

i agree with the impossible bit

[stray fog]

From her time among the weavers

[vestal swan]

Nothing about it is impossible?

[marble oasis]

who also never reproduced

[vestal swan]

Huh

[marble oasis]

nigh impossible

she knows it's nigh impossilbe from the failed attempts

[vestal swan]

Everybody likes to use the word impossible here when it's not once said. Very difficult and painful is not near impossible or impossible

[stray fog]

They must have heard about it from someone who did reproduce

[vestal swan]

When you say it's impossible people assume that you need an exception to get past the curse and that's not true

[vestal swan]

But they did not say it's impossible which is the classic hollow Knight fan interpretation of taking part of a sentence and running with it

[marble oasis]

"Very difficult and painful is not near impossible"

shows that it is in fact, near impossible

[misty stirrup]

near impossible means, an actual birth is a one in million miracle

[stray fog]

...

[marble oasis]

"They didn't say that"

[mighty parcel]

How intelligent are Squirrms?

[marble oasis]

a fair bit, they know what their purpose is

[vestal swan]

Yes I was wrong about the word near, it's still not an exception to the rule to have a kid because there is no rule

[mighty parcel]

hanks!

[vestal swan]

They are children of a sapient race

[stray fog]

Team cherry will have to explicitly write "hello we want to confirm that it is indeed near impossible" on a lore tablet at this point 😭

[marble oasis]

The fact that eva exists implies to me that having a child is so difficult they would rather make a robot than keep trying

[misty stirrup]

that and gms made the citadel

[stray fog]

Better a child spun frail than none

[vestal swan]

I mean this is coming from the weavnest where they built and designed robots

[marble oasis]

true

[vestal swan]

And it could be more difficult for some of them, we do have a swarm of children in hollownest

[marble oasis]

Let's not get crazy

[vestal swan]

We already have worse hornet is void things, for example they think hornet is void still

[sterile jacinth]

Imagining gms complaining that her kids never talk to her on estranged parent tik tok

[marble oasis]

I truly doubt the Weavers would place such high expectations on Hornet alone if they had legions of other children

[misty stirrup]

2/3 tried to kill her lmao

[vestal swan]

Well those legions of children died to the infection

[marble oasis]

snail shamans are void but again

[vestal swan]

And everybody else would be in hiding

[sterile jacinth]

Hornet is born of wyrm. That’s pretty dang exciting

[marble oasis]

they can always start again and make more if it was so easy

[vestal swan]

It's not like they're broadcasting their location and deciding to go fight GMS, remember the original generation Weaver plan was just to run away

[marble oasis]

also they hadn't fallen at that point

[vestal swan]

?

[fossil ledge]

There are some leaf and stick insects that are all-female as well. Still not arachnids, but they are arthropods

[stray fog]

"prove yourself more weaver than wyrm"

Seems like they weren't hyped about her being half wyrm

[sterile jacinth]

Well her being half wyrm would still be exiting. I think they’re just trying to get her to ally with them

[misty stirrup]

they're still racist

[fossil ledge]

Well, she's infertile lol, that should be proof enough 😭

[misty stirrup]

they just wanted the cool wyrm powers

[sterile jacinth]

“Omg you might be the one to finally free us and kill grand mother silk”

[stray fog]

"we hate half breeds"
Brother that's the only way your bloodline can survive

[marble oasis]

I was born of the Pale Wyrm and all I got was this Stupid Immortality

[fossil ledge]

One would think that Pale King genes would at the very least balance out the Weaver curse lol

[vestal swan]

Yeah but they are still assholes like that

[sterile jacinth]

I’d assume changing crests is also what came from her wyrm side

[misty stirrup]

it gets to like 1/8 at one point

[marble oasis]

if herrah and white lady bred whose reproduction genes win out

[fossil ledge]

Definitely the White Lady

[viscid ridge]

I do think eva wasn't supposed to be a child, she was supposed to be something to stop GMS, and also i think Eva is more of a Silk construct kinda like Lace and Phantom

[misty stirrup]

rooty spider

[stray fog]

Not again

[misty stirrup]

thank you kai cenat

[viscid ridge]

Send him to the abyss

[sterile jacinth]

SEND HIS ASS TO DEEPNEST

[fossil ledge]

Yo it's Elon Musk's crypto deal!

[stray fog]

Guys kai cenat is giving out free money wow

/j

[marble oasis]

Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

[misty stirrup]

Eva is deffo a parallel to Phantom and Lace. but I expect her prupose was to bind gms. their new goddess so to speak

[marble oasis]

shrue actually

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i think her Higher being part definitely made her resistant to losing her identity

[misty stirrup]

also I wonder what GMS would think of Eva

[stray fog]

Maybe shell be happy to have another daughter

[sterile jacinth]

I think she’d think she’s pathetic

[tepid mountain]

Is there anything in game that suggests Eva was anything more than an attempt at like, artificial reproduction?

[marble oasis]

"So they abandoned you too, did they?"

Treacherous daughters of mine... come here my iron granddaughter

[misty stirrup]

attempt at divinity mimicked in a form far too frail

[viscid ridge]

One thing that really confuses me about Lace, is how she is so nihilistic about everything, cause she is spun to fade, but she is literally older than almost everyone in pharloom so like what?

[misty stirrup]

she has no room to speak on that, but lowk I think she's taking any daughters she can get

[sterile jacinth]

I think a lot of the weaver attempts to reproduce were them trying to pass on the responsibility of killing grand mother silk on their children

[misty stirrup]

gms doesn't seem to have standards?

[marble oasis]

i read it as the weavers' attempt at being divine and spinning a child, not creating the divine

[sterile jacinth]

Those do not contradict each other. Lace relies on her mother to even live

[vestal swan]

Phantom getting tossed out be like:

[stray fog]

Phantom is not in a very functional state either so gms's standards shouldn't be high

[misty stirrup]

I long stopped trying to make sense of phantom

[sterile jacinth]

Why do you think they got that way? They rely on gms to live and she tossed phantom aside

[stray fog]

Oh

[viscid ridge]

As we know from real life, spiders are complete assholes. What about spiders in Hollow Knight? Well its a bit complicated.
(A few seconds later)
So yea, Spiders in Hollow Knight are assholes too- Mossbag

[misty stirrup]

we don't really know what Phantom's deal is

[stray fog]

So lace will become like that in the future

[sterile jacinth]

With hornet producing silk no

[marble oasis]

he would say this

[viscid ridge]

Then what is she even mad about i just dont get it💀

[misty stirrup]

she's mad at her condition. she is also insane

[stray fog]

The story of silksong from gms's pov is so sad

[viscid ridge]

Thats true

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is very controlling. She keeps her in a childlike state forever. Also lace knows if she messes up too much she’s gonna get her ass sent to bilewater (half joking but that’s what happened to phantom)

[misty stirrup]

lowk out of the weavers and conductors, she seems most okay-ish? like still bad but not citadel lvl of bad

[sterile jacinth]

Gms going on estranged parent tik tok to complain about her kids

[marble oasis]

was phantom actively discarded or just forgotten

[sterile jacinth]

From what we know of her she’s extremely controlling and is probably one of the major reasons for the Karak civilizations downfall

[stray fog]

> be me
> have kids
> kids try to kill me
> kids abandon me
> granddaughter comes and tries to kill me
> daughter cuts off my arm and pushes me into the fucking abyss

[viscid ridge]

Honestly, although i think that Silksong is much better than Hollow Knight, we can all agree that backstory of the Hollow Knight is way better than Lace's

[marble oasis]

karaks were warmongering assholes anyway

[sterile jacinth]

I think actively discarded. I don’t think it’s like gms to forget one of her children

[sterile jacinth]

Well yeah but that doesn’t mean they deserve genocide

[viscid ridge]

Yeah they were definitely not good guys

[misty stirrup]

not that this excuses her. but her controling part was most definetly amped up to 11 post weaver betrayal. it's why she made Phantom and Lace dependant on her

[misty stirrup]

their river dried up. they're still alive

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yea I agree

[misty stirrup]

they're like tardigrades. awaiting some new water

[sterile jacinth]

Functionally genocide. None of them can move. They’re all in practically comas

[misty stirrup]

I'm not sure gms did that tho. Khann says he's the last one standing (???how??)

[viscid ridge]

Their all dead, idk why you think their still alive, the only one who survived is the Watcher

[sterile jacinth]

I’m sure his kingdom and it’s downfall predates Karmelita (before they would’ve been considered unimportant as a bunch of little tribes)

Holy shit

[stray fog]

*vine boom*

[misty stirrup]

the watchers entire purpose is to keep watch when water springs to wake everybody else up

[viscid ridge]

I think Kai cenay wants us to join his crypto 🤣💀

[misty stirrup]

there's so many of these I'm boutta be a millionaire at this rate

[viscid ridge]

Ill bet that we will get another one in 5 minutes

[misty stirrup]

right back to this. she is a bit of a tragic character. with her nature (as a pale being) in conflict with her desire to be a mother

[wintry flame]

what did you just say

[misty stirrup]

interestingly she only feels sorrow for the weavers betrayal and no anger

[wintry flame]

karak was a noble and powerful kingdom if the other bugs were weak it was kinda their fault

[stray fog]

But she hunted them down

[misty stirrup]

is it karak's fault that they were weak too?

[wintry flame]

yeah 😔

[misty stirrup]

we don't know who did that, plus pavo describes the haunting as sad memories (of gms)

[marble oasis]

blehhhh where's your river gone

[fossil ledge]

Y'all is it weak to lose to a god as a mortal? xD

[marble oasis]

yo coral dry as shit twin

[wintry flame]

i darnks it all

[misty stirrup]

if your ideology is might makes right. yes

[stray fog]

This is why khann is so fat

[misty stirrup]

khann is my delulu king

the last one's standing... (falls first)

[marble oasis]

is your profile picture speed trying not to laugh

[sterile jacinth]

They fought a god give them some slack

[viscid ridge]

No, his mom is kinda homeless

[misty stirrup]

slack and not snack. they had plenty of those

[fossil ledge]

I mean, does it? I suppose weak relative to the god

[wintry flame]

that's somsnosa

[misty stirrup]

"we are awesome because of our strenght" > someone stronger comes by > "darn"

[sterile jacinth]

Their ego was killed as hard as they were

[wintry flame]

she's a character in the hylics games

[viscid ridge]

I think its funny that the one ruler who was all about being the strongest, and taking over half of pharloom is the easiest act 3 boss

[wintry flame]

that's why he lost he had a shit attack pattern

[sterile jacinth]

If you weren’t Hornet and the mobility she has it would probably be a lot harder

[fossil ledge]

Fair I suppose, though I still think losing to a foe that's several orders of magnitude stronger than them doesn't make them weak per se

[wintry flame]

trust me if khann had a different moveset the game would be called differently

[frosty gate]

Nyleth was easier, just more stunning honestly

[misty stirrup]

well then maybe they should pick a different mentality

[wintry flame]

nyleth was easy as piss

[frosty gate]

Seth was a drag, that's the problem

[sterile jacinth]

Also his attacks seem like tuned to fight individuals and more against armies

[sterile jacinth]

That’s why she had a guardian

[marble oasis]

They lost to one mortal bug with a needle

[misty stirrup]

Nyleth is pogo simulator. Khann feels like he does yoga instead of fighting you

[frosty gate]

"Mortal"

[marble oasis]

Well she's quite small

[viscid ridge]

His fight feels like a hollow knight fight, but not a silksong fight. I think if he was a bit faster it would have been harder

[sterile jacinth]

Yea I want a harder fight but his gauntlet was pretty fun

[spark valve]

to a mortal protagonist with a needle

[wintry flame]

his attacks seem to be tuned to fight against hornet in act 1 of the game (as it should have been pre 2022)

[frosty gate]

Hornet is probably the deadliest thing in Pharloom

[marble oasis]

also just because she doesn't age doesn't mean she's not mortal

[wintry flame]

this message goes kinda hard as fuck...

[marble oasis]

i'm sure she died a lot in your playthrough

[viscid ridge]

You forget that one fuck ass mosquito in the petrified ducts

[marble oasis]

not mine though of course

[sterile jacinth]

True

[frosty gate]

Deaths are not canon

[marble oasis]

She Can Die though

Be Killed rather

[sterile jacinth]

Being able to die doesn’t mean she’s not powerful lol

[wintry flame]

this is kinda the funniest thing ever if you think about it hornet's journey through pharloom probably lasted like a few days

[viscid ridge]

Hornet can die, but she cant die of old age it seems

[sterile jacinth]

Look at the gods

[marble oasis]

#sk-lore message

"Mortal"

[misty stirrup]

the gods don't really die though. except due to specific conditions

like void being one and the only other one we see is greyroot, after gms was heavily weakened

[sterile jacinth]

Hornet is a strange case

[marble oasis]

greyroot isn't a hb

pk sort of just died though

[misty stirrup]

greyroot killed da god

[marble oasis]

my fault

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was suicide

[frosty gate]

Fair enough

[viscid ridge]

They aren't saying that, they are saying the only other case of a god dying, is due to greyroot

[marble oasis]

wouldn't hornet absorbing gms also kill her

[misty stirrup]

no

binding isn't death

[viscid ridge]

No how come?

[marble oasis]

it effectively is though

[misty stirrup]

in fact it's quite possible the "weaver queen" is more gms than hornet

[marble oasis]

Meet potential weaver queen

[misty stirrup]

Hornet: I am sorry, Eva. I cannot grant you this. At least, not yet.
Hornet: Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity.
I understand, Lady. I will be here, if ever you reconsider.

if Eva was dangerous to Hornet's identity

[marble oasis]

and yet it did not

[misty stirrup]

imagine GMS

[misty stirrup]

eva is chill like that. gms isn't

you can still feel eva part of you due to sylphsong

[viscid ridge]

One thing that i hope we get to see in a update is the last hallownest weaver. I honestly thought we would get to see her in silksong but guess not

[marble oasis]

she tripped over a rock and smashed her big fucking head on the way out

[viscid ridge]

Do you have any ibuprofen? I got a headache

I wonder if Unn passed away by the time silksong starts

[misty stirrup]

Unn is back on her feet trust

[frosty gate]

LW: "Child of Herrah, I see you have fullfiled your purpose, may we rule this Kingdom together now that the Grandmother has fallen"
Hornet: "We!?"

[misty stirrup]

with the infection gone she now has worshippers

[misty stirrup]

there isn't much of a kingdom left to rule ngl

[frosty gate]

This is actually very possible to be honest

Unn the GOAT

[viscid ridge]

Unn grows feet, like a beast

[frosty gate]

There is plenty of Kingdom to rule wdym. Everything can be rebuilt and/or cleaned. The Pilgrims are free now and there's no major deity trying to seize control of the entire place.
Hell, they can even free the flies from the Slab now.

[wintry flame]

hornet will probably close the slab from the outside and light it on fire

[teal drift]

Hornet killed the slabmother

[viscid ridge]

But the flies stink, and doesn't know what bathes are

[misty stirrup]

the old hearts are gone. far fields , karak and Shellwood are joever

[viscid ridge]

Theres a new one btw

[frosty gate]

Idk why people think that Pharloom is a lost cause, it really isn't.

[misty stirrup]

90% of the population is kinda dead due to void silk

[teal drift]

Omg a new one where

The 10% will rebuild trust

Pharloom is far less lost than hallownest for sure

[viscid ridge]

Hornet really fucked up the natural balance of pharloom, she even says her actions are gonna be bad in the future as a result

[teal drift]

Well the natural balance of pharloom was terrible to begin with

[marble oasis]

Sherma: Red Maiden, we have freed the Underworkers from their servitude and allowed the labourers in Greymoor to begin tending their farms again! Now we just have to set those poor flies who guard that jail free as well..
Hornet:

[frosty gate]

Verdania is regrowing which is positive, Far Fields will die and regrow according to Hornet herself, Karak could come back, we don't know. Shellwood seems untouched

[sterile jacinth]

The citadel already fucked it over

[wintry flame]

nyleth has been dead for a while now that's why i'm confused

[wintry flame]

https://tenor.com/view/ed-edd-n-eddy-cancelled-carlomalis-tiktok-ed-edd-n-eddy-been-cancelled-for-years-yo-gif-2547942202735280174

[frosty gate]

Give Flick proper tools, he rebuilds the Citadel in three days tops

[misty stirrup]

I think Nyleth was absorbed

[marble oasis]

bad news for shellwood

[teal drift]

The citadel but made of 100% breakable walls

[frosty gate]

Nyleth was dead, the Heart wasn't

[frosty gate]

How's that bad new, it's regrowing and it actually looks a bit like Nyleth iirc

[marble oasis]

the heart being alive doesn't mean much considering the state of verdania and karak

[sterile jacinth]

Their pain is still alive

[marble oasis]

shellwood will be overtaken by SPLINTERS

[sterile jacinth]

With the heart

[frosty gate]

Karak is different because the land died first

[frosty gate]

Verdania works because both Hearts left, or at the very least, one of the two hearts

Again????

[marble oasis]

how do these guys have nitro dude

[frosty gate]

One of the Verdania Hearts left and got mutilated by the Citadel, basically died.
The other one doesn't seem to have enough strength, or maybe he just left too and let it die.

[marble oasis]

we don't know how long he's been in that cell tbf

[frosty gate]

Actually, that doesn't look like the Splinters

Splinters are literally just branches

[marble oasis]

I rebuke thee

[frosty gate]

The color of the leaves are almost the same as Nyleth's

[marble oasis]

not at all

[misty stirrup]

ohhhh those are her legs

[frosty gate]

It looks more like Nyelth's flower than Sister Splinter

[arctic cliff]

Rest In Peace, Conductor Romino

[frosty gate]

And if I'm honest, regardless if it's SisSplint or Nyleth, the point still stands, Shellwood will grow and keep itself

[left fog]

What the fu

[left fog]

So a new ruler then

One different from SisSplint and Nyleth

[wintry flame]

not every conductor is romino

i think old penitent is conductor romino

[frosty gate]

It's not even a Conductor, its just the mantle

[left fog]

What possible dlcs are available for Skong

To open up on the lore

[frosty gate]

Old Sins, visiting the Past

[left fog]

How many more fucking snails will we see

[frosty gate]

Epilogue Chapter where Hornet and Lace work together after Act 3

[left fog]

I swear they will continue to appear in every game

[frosty gate]

And something like Gods and Glory

[left fog]

God Home old rulers

[wintry flame]

lifeblood spire in the barnacle bay

[left fog]

Wouldn't Khan be more challenging if he summoned 2 minions into the fight?

[mint flower]

Zote’s father is Spamton.G Spamton

[heavy gyro]

Is nyleth a flower that looks like a bug

[midnight reef]

other way around imo

I know the lore is probably against it, considering that there is just living intelligent plants, but eh

[vestal swan]

The splinters are said to be bugs imitating plants but I don't think the nyleth descendants are the same?

[blissful harbor]

what kinda bugs do you be seeing

[toxic mulch]

I want an epilogue act so badly,I love seeing the aftermath and rebuilding in media

[limpid summit]

I think DLC will be an epilogue act

[marble oasis]

Hello apple

[limpid summit]

If they plan to introduce the steel assassins it doesn’t make sense for the storyline to be self contained pre Lost Lace

Hi zor!!!

[marble oasis]

I disagree though, I don’t think they’ll undo the three act structure

[limpid summit]

I guess thematically a fourth act would be stupid

But I feel like ss dlc will be different from like GT

I can’t see it being huge side quests

[silk dirge]

i cant wait for act 4 "tikkun olam" where pharloom converts to reform judaism

[spark valve]

surely people would respond to that in a reasonable way

[limpid summit]

“Sister Hornet I didn’t see you at synagogue today”

“Sherma sometimes my faith leads me elsewhere but I shall always return”

[spark valve]

you know reform jews always going to synagogue every day

[limpid summit]

All the time

[marble oasis]

Pharloom converts to reddit atheism and doubts gms ever existed in the first place

[silk dirge]

my secular ass goes to synagogue like once every year

[limpid summit]

True

[past cypress]

I want Godhome this time around to be Hornet delving into her own memories to rematch bosses

[limpid summit]

“Yeah first sinner historically existed we have the records but I don’t think she ever actually talked to GMS”

[silk dirge]

lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Then best you keep watching, child. I've found those who claim themselves a god can rarely match the title. And experience tells me, even gods can fall

[silk dirge]

nah what if pharloom converts to fucking scientology

[marble oasis]

“There was A “first sinner” imprisoned in the Slab, but no proof that she actually was a daughter of Silk like she claimed. Probably just a crazy reactionary cult leader against the Citadel of the time”

[silk dirge]

i mean its not too far off tbh

[charred nimbus]

Why the fuck are we talking about religion tho

[unreal timber]

Is there a website video or document or something like that that compiles all the lore that is found in game (e.g. the relics or the lore tablets)? Because I can't remember some of them.

[unique canopy]

Nietszche Hornet. "God is dead and I have killed her."

[limpid summit]

There’s the lore tablets and Needolin locations pages on the wiki

[vestal swan]

!Wiki silksong

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Hollow_Knight:_Silksong

[spark valve]

wiki has most of the text even if a lot of the conclusions are wrong or dubious

[silk dirge]

bc the tikkun olam joke for act 4 was too good for me not to make and now this discussion started

[unreal timber]

Alright, thanks guys!

[marble oasis]

full text dump in pins

[silk dirge]

for those who dont know "tikkun olam" means "fixing the world" in hebrew

[sinful nimbus]

I love the wiki 🦅🦅🦅

[silk dirge]

so thats where the act 4 joke comes from

[sinful nimbus]

Who up headcanoning enby Moss Druid

[charred nimbus]

I knew the void was a creation of Niteszche

[silk dirge]

im headcanoning transfem weavers

[vestal swan]

Does the druid have a gender? I don't remember it being specified

[limpid summit]

Eventually the weavers realized they would never be free of grand mother silk so they left ❤️‍🩹

[silk dirge]

according to the wiki team they are apparently confirmed to be enby?

[limpid summit]

There’s some secret doc TC sent to translators confirming the genders of various characters

[vestal swan]

I'm ignoring the wikis opinions on genders because they tried to use translations and then just flipped it apparently

[silk dirge]

idk tho bc thats an nda protected document and i don't trust them lol

[spark valve]

the wiki team who isn't remotely trustworthy and is just yapping since they won't show a source

[vestal swan]

They don't have a source

[spark valve]

trust me guys ari JUST dmed me

[limpid summit]

And they can’t use the doc so they have to use the translations the doc applies to (?)

[silk dirge]

me when i use an nda protected document for a wiki

[limpid summit]

Idk bro

At that point it’s the same thing is it not

We can extrapolate the contents of the doc

[vestal swan]

This is the same level of argument as the non-existent translator guide to document that several translators straight up ignored

[spark valve]

they also aren't under nda they can share it if they want

[sinful nimbus]

The doc doesn't even confirm anything

[limpid summit]

What the fuck is this 💔

[silk dirge]

yeah why would that still be under nda after release

[limpid summit]

I didn’t know we had stickers

[sinful nimbus]

mfw the translators broke NDA to tell the wiki Moss Druid is enby

[spark valve]

sure the translators would have broken nda but they did that anyways

[vestal swan]

Got to be one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard

[spark valve]

wiki staff could share the stuff if they wanted

[charred nimbus]

guys, Wiliam Pellen is actually my friend and they have just DM'd me saying that Shade lord is actually a girl.

[vestal swan]

R/silksong level of detective work

[frosty gate]

Oof, what's the topic now

[limpid summit]

The Portuguese guy totally broke NDA to say green prince was incestuous

[sinful nimbus]

Close enough welcome back Broken Vessel

[marble oasis]

I never even considered the shade lord could be a girl… maybe I’m a bad person

[silk dirge]

i mean atleast r/silksong has actually made some cool theories tbh

[vestal swan]

Wiki using "trust me bro" as a source for every character's gender

[frosty gate]

Be fair, they don't take themselves seriously on r/Silksong

[silk dirge]

the first sinner is atla theory originated on r/silksong

so its not completely cooked

[limpid summit]

R/silksong had cool theories like Skynx is Nosk hee hee

[frosty gate]

Is it Phantom discussion again

[vestal swan]

I asked about whether the druid was confirmed and it spiraled into the wiki talk again

[lyric widget]

I'm a mod for the wiki. we've always used translations since 2018, we just didn't expect the whole community to explode once we made this decision for Silksong. we reverted it since there was too much backlash, and decided to leave it Team Cherry's responsibility to confirm genders

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[frosty gate]

Oh damn, Sumwan, good to see you come by

[lyric widget]

the amount of accusations of transphobia and harrassment was just way too much lol

[limpid summit]

Ouch lmao

The phantom discourse was sort of overblown I don’t think it’s NB erasure but we don’t have to drudge all that up

[spark valve]

it's not like there's a character in game using gendered words to refer to her... oh wait

[vestal swan]

I don't understand how there can be discourse about phantom, hornet doesn't have a conversation with her but lace does?

[lyric widget]

I understand a lot of people felt personally defensive because they related to Phantom, and we were kinda saying as the wiki "you're wrong", so people felt attacked. I understand it but yeah, we decided to just leave it up to Team Cherry to clarify

[lyric widget]

people are saying this is ambiguous, I personally don't think it is, but we can't win here. the amount of hate and harrassment is just not worth it

[silk dirge]

im personally just gonna say phantom gives they/she vibes

[frosty gate]

I'm amazed how people will hate and harras because of a wiki

[sinful nimbus]

SS so lacking in queer rep the fans just started making stuff up 💔 💔 💔

[vestal swan]

Cloth on the LGBT game chart be like

[spark valve]

I mean ss has the verdanian princes who are more prominent than hk's gay folks

[lyric widget]

I think people felt like we were attacking their identity, when really our only intention was to have accurate info on the wiki. most of the wiki team is queer as well, so of course it's never our intention to be transphobic or anything

[marble oasis]

I read that as phantom doomering to lace instead of vice versa

[vestal swan]

Phantoms the one in the jar why would she be the one talking

[limpid summit]

Phantom while needolined inside the tank: glub glub glub

[spark valve]

phantom is in the silkta tank

[marble oasis]

it makes more sense for them to be “oh sister she doesn’t love us and we’re just going to fray and break” rather than lace telling phantom, the abandoned and fraying sibling, that

i would assume they know

[spark valve]

it's lace commiserating

[silk dirge]

if theres ever a phantom plush someone should put her in a jar

[limpid summit]

I mean lace is the one lamenting right

[lyric widget]

people were already saying "you can be a sister and still use they/them", this is an unwinnable argument unless you just want to tank all of the harrassment

[spark valve]

it's not telling her information she didn't already know it's lace bemoaning their shared fate

[spark valve]

I mean
in phantom's case the jar may just be helping

[marble oasis]

I still see it as a phantom memory, they live there so the organ would hold onto their words more strongly

[sinful nimbus]

I mean Lace's imprint is still there

[spark valve]

lace is there and in the more active position

[frosty gate]

One can never win against a Fandom

[limpid summit]

Phantom’s pain is invisible to us

[lyric widget]

as long as it's still slightly ambiguous like this, we can't add "female" to the wiki lol

[limpid summit]

Bro powdered

[vestal swan]

I really don't think there's any ambiguity people are just being extremely stubborn

[limpid summit]

Come on that was good

[marble oasis]

I object to this considering your name is a metal gear reference

[silk dirge]

final boss of sk lore
Destroyer of Fun
Powdered

[lyric widget]

but yeah I'm hoping this whole thing will blow over soon, our only goal on the wiki is always to have accurate info. we thought we could do the same with Silksong as we did with HK, but it's causing too much backlash for now, so we're only using what Team Cherry wrote in the English version

[misty stirrup]

Isn't Phantom called sister rather then sibling? And GMS only makes daughters? It's quite ... clear imo. Hornet refers to multiple women as "they" - Last Judge , Bell Beast

[marble oasis]

bell beast in particular is quite damning for me

[limpid summit]

The idea is that Phantom could be nb representing breaking out of GMS’s binary web

[sinful nimbus]

Last Judge will always be a dude in my heart ❤️

[spark valve]

hornet also refers to garmond as 'they' in the journal entry identically to phantom

[marble oasis]

the game explicitly calls her a mother but hornet still uses they

[ornate pier]

Yeah the wiki situation was pretty sad to see
I do think the source they used for the silksong translation was kinda iffy because the nda surrounding it made it hard to cite but there were genuinely droves of people coming in to pressure the modteam to revert it, saying things like the entire community was about to turn against the wiki, and just being very forceful and impatient

[limpid summit]

But like that’s sort of headcanon and while it’s harmless it’s not worth calling people out for

[marble oasis]

Yes mothers can be they #notverywokeofme

[spark valve]

using evidence nobody can see is a problem because there's no reason to treat it as reliable

[frosty gate]

Tbf, isn't Garmond's in plural because its Garmond and Zaza

[vestal swan]

We don't see a bell father/mother either though, we don't know how that dynamic works besides the game's themes suggesting that the Bell beast is the mother

[spark valve]

no

[ornate pier]

No, specifically garmond

[spark valve]

Vigorous old knight and their noble companion, working together to see their lands cut free from haunted madness.

[frosty gate]

Then I have no idea, the english language is a joke

[ornate pier]

Hunters journal is so weird with this especially but the inconsistency shows up in a few character dialogues too

[marble oasis]

flavour text for beastling call specifically calls her their mother

[lyric widget]

yeah this was really bad, especially Zigmatism (main admin) got so much harrassment on Tumblr from people accusing them of being transphobic, pressuring the whole team to leave the wiki and "hand it over" to more capable people. keep in mind Zig is agender as well, so this all pretty hard to deal with

[sinful nimbus]

come on that was related to the convo 💔

[marble oasis]

You’re slipping powder

[limpid summit]

Holy shit man lmao poor zig

[charred nimbus]

I think Hornet refering to Bell beast as "they" is more when you call your pet as they

[ornate pier]

Unfortunately some people will never be able to assume good faith I guess

[charred nimbus]

it's not exactly gender related

[spark valve]

using the singular 'they' in english simply isn't an indication that something is nonbinary or agender, it's ambiguous

[lyric widget]

yeah people were painting us as some evil people who hated nb characters and were being intentionally transphobic. idk I just hope people here know that this wasn't ever our intention

[limpid summit]

No of course not

[marble oasis]

yeah and she wrote it before she met the beastlings anyway

[misty stirrup]

imo it's a problem with projecting so much on a character and headcanoning so much, that if you may be proven wrong about your headcanon it's now an attack on you

[charred nimbus]

Unfortunally way too many people think that way

[marble oasis]

i didn’t think phantom had shooters like that

[sterile jacinth]

Clinging to headcanons and forcing others to follow them is not very cool

[spark valve]

people just got too attached to that narrative when the trading cards were found on steamdb

[frosty gate]

Of course it was Tumblr

[limpid summit]

What if broodling was a passive journal entry like maggots

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve got my own headcanons but if others don’t believe them so be it I don’t care

[marble oasis]

explain

[charred nimbus]

That's the entire point of a headcanon, it's true for you but it's not universal truth

[sinful nimbus]

You are upset at Phantom's character because she isn't a non-binary void creature
I am upset at Phantom's character because she is not a kitsune
We are not the same

[silk dirge]

ah shit here we go again

[frosty gate]

Truly a very clear demonstration of how far will people go for things that are pure misinformation

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah :P people need to let other people have fun

[spark valve]

if you want a kitsune go play monster hunter

[vestal swan]

No we just don't like the magical non-existent translator document

[limpid summit]

She’s sitting there and we swipe at her

[silk dirge]

go wait for fearless fox if you want kitsunes

[sinful nimbus]

I can fight a Kitsune with silk attacks no less

[lyric widget]

this should never have been mentioned, it was mostly just a confirmation for us that (some) translations are accurate to use

[charred nimbus]

But like, Pure vessel uses rune rage, that must meen they are a weaver right? /sarcasm

[vestal swan]

Yeah but with some being accurate and some being inaccurate that throws all of them in the trash, because they conflict on the exact thing that we are trying to confirm

[limpid summit]

I’m upset because phantom is not mentioned at all by weavers or GMS or conductors or anyone really even in passing

[lyric widget]

HK also has some translations that aren't accurate, it's kind of hard to judge sometimes. which is why we're not judging it at all now and just letting TC handle it

[marble oasis]

I still don’t understand

[spark valve]

it is in line with being forgotten and discarded

[sterile jacinth]

Forgotten by everyone. Poor guy. No wonder they wanted to die

[ornate pier]

Lowkey when was the last ama

[limpid summit]

It’s…it’s funny!

[marble oasis]

Well no one can really reach her in the mist

[limpid summit]

Right?

[lyric widget]

yeah this argument has been made as well, it's understandable and part of the reason we reverted it (but the main reason was the harrassment ngl)

[charred nimbus]

But they do know about her

[limpid summit]

This is why I think Phantomiscarriage works

[sterile jacinth]

I think phantom is the cause. Whether it’s intentional or not is up to interpretation

[spark valve]

Show me strength, spider...
Forgotten...
Discarded...
Silk stretched thin...
it would be weird if she got a lot of extra attention in the game

[limpid summit]

Well the mist doesn’t go up

[marble oasis]

yeah it’s pretty clear phantom caused the mist?

[limpid summit]

Yeah but like she’s not even the BV of the game

[charred nimbus]

Nobody needs attenton when they have aura tho

[sterile jacinth]

Yea. Or playing the organ. The wraiths are definitely caused by phantom

[vestal swan]

It's assumed that the phantoms are part of an astral projection ability that her and lace both have, and that the mist is part of a spell from the organ music

[marble oasis]

Im gonna blow your mind when I tell you who’s playing the organ

[vestal swan]

I really like the astral projection idea, I need to remember who pointed it out cuz it was a good idea

[spark valve]

it is funny that hornet can kill phantom and then have the caretaker dialogue later about how prior to lace she had never ever seen a silk being like that nosiree

[sterile jacinth]

The argument I’m making is that idk if it was intentional

[spark valve]

too high on organ fumes to remember the fight

[vestal swan]

I mean they suck the silk out of targets, with that logic she's gathering her own life support

[sterile jacinth]

I can see it either way. Phantom deliberately isolating themselves even further or a more metaphorical manifestation of their pain and abandonment they feel

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet doesn't remember Phantom because she has no lore

[limpid summit]

This is like getting DDark before Shade Soul so TK has no idea what the shaman is talking about

[frosty gate]

Do you think the reason why Phantom would've obeyed the Weavers was because they basically extorted her with keeping her alive?

[marble oasis]

FACT: Phantom made up her backstory so Hornet would feel bad

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[frosty gate]

I've been thinking about it for a while, maybe Phantom wasn't rebellious, she was just forced to workt here or die.

[ornate pier]

FACT: Phantom was actually strewn from "COTTON" instead of SILK (SHE LIED)

[spark valve]

Cindril weavers are the only not evil children of gms

[limpid summit]

Maybe

[sterile jacinth]

Could very well be the truth. They just didn’t live up to gms standards

[limpid summit]

They just let her collect the dregs to try and live longer

[sinful nimbus]

The Hallownest weavers weren't great

Atla is the only good weaver we know of

[limpid summit]

Them people said they ate the king of deepnest

[vestal swan]

Hadn't thought of that, yeah that could make sense

[spark valve]

They’re cindril weavers and mostly chill

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone in Deepnest worshipping Herrah:

Sure wonder why that happened after Silksong 🤔

[spark valve]

true

[marble oasis]

Streets are saying the cindril weavers made the sinner’s road trap bench

[frosty gate]

I mean we know that she didn't live up to expectations, but I've been thinking of a reason why Phantom would obey the Weavers, going on the assumption that Weavers imprisoned GMS because they're brats

[limpid summit]

How do we know this though

[marble oasis]

He’s just making shit up for the agenda

[sterile jacinth]

I think all the weavers were one group not several. They might have split up while running away but I think they’re more like one group or think of themselves that way

[spark valve]

innocent until proven guilty

[limpid summit]

This is hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone in Silksong is evil though

[limpid summit]

Everyone like eats babies

[vestal swan]

And so far the only evil from the start thing has been GMS

[spark valve]

hollow knight has based people silksong is all baby eaters

[marble oasis]

Or is gay

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think phantom was around when the weavers were. I think they were created after the weavers were already gone

[sinful nimbus]

Also we're only shown the Hallownest weavers being jerks

[limpid summit]

Or is fat

[marble oasis]

Some of the baby eaters are also gay

[spark valve]

they worked with pk so they can't be that bad

[sinful nimbus]

PK was a white colonizer weavers are also colonizers

[spark valve]

holy yap

[vestal swan]

Fraudwatch strikes again, PK didn't even do the bad things he was known for it was all the Weaver's ideas

[limpid summit]

I think phantom was Weaver time but it depends on a bit of circular logic

If we assume Karak dried up because the Citadel was steam powered we can probably guess Exhaust Organ dates back to stone citadel

[frosty gate]

Phantom had to be there when the Weavers were there, otherwise who else would operate the Organ? It makes sense Phantom was made first, before the rebellion, then Lace made at the start of the Haunting

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. I think they were created after as gms next attempt at making a child who would love her this time

[limpid summit]

Oh no no no Lily

[marble oasis]

Divine ate leg eater
PK killed his kids
Bardoon was fat
Soul Master tortured thousands
Accept it, at the end of the day I only care about the charms

[limpid summit]

My theory is very different

[vestal swan]

Who

[limpid summit]

Lily

It’s easier than saynn in t skarr enjoyer every time

[sterile jacinth]

Organ could have been operated by others we don’t know

[sterile jacinth]

Wdym?

[marble oasis]

Citadel may have not had so much pollution in the Weaver era

[spark valve]

it probably increased over time

[frosty gate]

There doesn't seem to be anyone else in the entire vicinity, you would assume there'd be at least a corpse

[sterile jacinth]

I think with the conductors guilding it that’s when it started producing a lot of Pluto on

[limpid summit]

I think Phantom was born in GMS’s deep sleep, either during Weaver time or early Conductor times (former if we assume EO is that old)
This would have cut her off from GMS’s silk link and not allowed her to have a way to sustain herself, and GMS would treat Lace as the first child of the sort (third Silkheart dialogue) because she didn’t even know Phantom existed

[sterile jacinth]

There’s a lot left unclear

[limpid summit]

I think the themes still work because rather than GMS purposefully abandoning Phantom she just overlooks her like everyone else

It still speaks to a flawed version of motherhood

[frosty gate]

Not at the beggining, it eventually had to happen while Weavers were still alive.
The Weavers were there for a long time

[sinful nimbus]

When do we get to the miscarriage part

[limpid summit]

That’s the miscarriage part

[sterile jacinth]

I understand where your arguments are coming from and you’re right it does fit the theme but k feel like the “discarded” line makes it feel more deliberate

[spark valve]

apple you uh might want to google what terms mean

[limpid summit]

Yeah whatever it sounds more interesting

[vestal swan]

It doesn't make any sense

[limpid summit]

Fnaf theorists naming their theory Freddy brain explosion

[marble oasis]

She calls herself both discarded and forgotten

[limpid summit]

Well that only comes from like

Her

Lace was fine tuned and like Star suggested perhaps kept perpetually young as GMS was more awake and wanted to cultivate a fucked up perfect kid

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Gms could have deliberately forgotten them. I don’t think that’s out of the question considering gms personality

[limpid summit]

Like everyone says this but really

It isn’t

[sterile jacinth]

Lace feels to me like a third try. Phantom didn’t work out, maybe this one will

[vestal swan]

I think it makes more sense that phantom was just the second attempt at a perfect kid and she didn't think to make her a permanently obedient young persona and body, and she just perfected it with lace

[limpid summit]

It isn’t suggested that she abandoned the Weavers nor that she’s replacing Lace with Hornet

She’s a bad mother for different reasons

[spark valve]

she is replacing her inferior children with lace though

[limpid summit]

The only thing that suggests she abandoned Phantom is Phantom herself

[frosty gate]

Zza made the interesting suggestion that Phantom was the first, even before Weavers, then failed and GMS made Weavers, then failed again.

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think Phantom is being unreliable here

[frosty gate]

I think it's unlikely, but cool

[sterile jacinth]

I didn’t say Hornet is replacing lace. I think lace craves her mothers attention and gms just started paying more attention to Hornet

[limpid summit]

Well no I’m not saying she’s being unreliable

[sterile jacinth]

Where is this?

[limpid summit]

Just that GMS wasn’t like I cast you down

She was discarded because GMS wasn’t even awake to acknowledge her

And still doesn’t to this day

[vestal swan]

That doesn't make sense

[frosty gate]

Zza is someone who's ocassionally here, no proof of that in game. To be fair, there's not proof of anything regarding Phantom in game

[sinful nimbus]

I mean it says forgotten which would suggest GMS knew of her at some time no?

[vestal swan]

You can't discard it if you never had it? And being a silkspun creature she was clearly intentionally made

[limpid summit]

No?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s fair. I just think phantom was a second try. I don’t think you can make a being out of silk subconsciously

[frosty gate]

Phantom is so forgotten than even TC doesn't fucking give us info about her

[limpid summit]

If she was forgotten by the Weavers and made to do stuff during the Conductor era

Forgotten could mean a few things

[sinful nimbus]

Sure

[frosty gate]

I never said she made it subconsciously.

[limpid summit]

I did

[spark valve]

it's entirely possible phantom is just being included in the 'better a child spun pure than them' line since she's an inferior iteration to lace

[limpid summit]

Eh

Spun pure suggests more the manner of Lace’s birth

Weavers were spun with a template

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think it’s likely. Especially seeing as there’s only two

[spark valve]

phantom is also working alongside the citadel which is a betrayal

[vestal swan]

I'd say phantom is still "pure" silk, just not eternally. She was able to age

[limpid summit]

Well because GMS isn’t sustaining her

[sterile jacinth]

Not pure anymore. Phantom is frayed and gray with age

[limpid summit]

For whatever reason

[vestal swan]

We don't know if that's the exact cause though, the aging thing could be two different things

[limpid summit]

She was spun pure because she wasn’t spun on top of another being like the Weavers

[spark valve]

sure but that assumes gms would be understanding in that case which... why would she be

[sterile jacinth]

Deliberate abandonment I think

[frosty gate]

I think Phantom is the "Child Spun Mad"

[limpid summit]

That’s what spun pure means

[spark valve]

lace is a good deal more mad than phantom

[sterile jacinth]

I’d say they’re both pretty pissed

[vestal swan]

It could be that phantom was not designed to stay a child forever

Or that she was not maintained to be one

I think phantom was not designed to be a child because she did not expect a child puppet made entirely of silk to also betray her, and that's where lace was made to be more obedient and permanently a child

[frosty gate]

I can't remember the full dialogue

[spark valve]

'manic fencer who delights in battle'

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I agree. Maybe phantom grew up and got their own ideas and gms did NOT like that

[limpid summit]

...Better a child spun frail... than none...
This is really contradictory to GMS purposefully spinning and abandoning Phantom and not even in a bad mother sort of way

[frosty gate]

We don't really know if Phantom betrayed her though?

[limpid summit]

Like this would just be contradictory dialogue in this case

She just wanted to spin a kid

[sterile jacinth]

Yea and this kid turned out to not meet her expectations

[limpid summit]

Evidence?

[spark valve]

unless she sees phantom working with the citadel as invalidating her like she does the weavers' betrayal

[sterile jacinth]

“Discarded”

[limpid summit]

That doesn’t imply that

[wintry flame]

we don't know much about why phantom is in the exhaust organ

[limpid summit]

I think this isn’t an entirely fair extrapolation

[spark valve]

it's pretty directly analogous

[sterile jacinth]

What I think happened is gms tried again and this kid grew up and had their own opinions and gms didn’t like that so abandoned them and maybe out of anger they joined the conductors or isolated themselves to the exhaust organ

[limpid summit]

Well they were tasked with the organ

It wasn’t self imposed

[frosty gate]

Phantom was "Tasked" with the Organ, so she isn't there willingly

[spark valve]

she doesn't have a jailer she could leave or stop

[limpid summit]

Really?

[frosty gate]

Which is why I was struggling to understand why she would obey the Weavers

[spark valve]

it might cost her her life but gms expects children to be loyal

[sterile jacinth]

They were tasked but I think they’re partially there willingly to keep gms asleep

[limpid summit]

I mean yes she’s keeping the song going but it’s not as if we can guess Phantom went to work for them

[spark valve]

yeah? 'you were my daughter but you went against me so you aren't now'

[limpid summit]

The circumstances of her birth are similar to Lace’s

But there’s nothing that suggests this

[spark valve]

yes there is

[limpid summit]

Sure you can shove Phantom in every Weaver dialogue but you could also like not

[spark valve]

the lace silk heart is incoherent if she never saw the weavers as her daughters

[limpid summit]

And nothing changes

[limpid summit]

For phantom specifically

Yes she has that general attitude

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s very hard to make a being out of pure silk without even realizing it. Yes gms is a god but I don’t think she’d do it subconsciously

[limpid summit]

...Better a child spun pure... than them...

[sterile jacinth]

Lace is said to need a lot of silk to sustain herself

[limpid summit]

Well this definitely doesn’t refer to Phantom

[spark valve]

but you're taking it out of context

[frosty gate]

This doesn't have anything to do with Phantom?

[sterile jacinth]

I think you’d notice if some being was siphoning a big portion of your silk

[limpid summit]

So you’re suggesting the dialogue is
Better Lace than Weavers + Phantom
Better Lace than Weavers + Phantom
Better Lace than Weavers

[sterile jacinth]

It’s me trying to debunk the miscarriage idea

[limpid summit]

That seems inconsistent

[spark valve]

also it's weird to assert that pure definitely means made only of silk

[limpid summit]

No it’s not?

[spark valve]

as opposed to just perfect

[frosty gate]

Wtf is the miscarriage idea i thought you were joking

[sterile jacinth]

What Apple is trying to argue :P

[spark valve]

phantom isn't eternally a child, she's not pure

[limpid summit]

Better a child made exclusively of silk by me instead of me just augmenting a regular being

That’s an interpretation

[spark valve]

so is what you're saying

[frosty gate]

What is the arguement?

[limpid summit]

Better a child spun eternally young than Phantom and Weavers?

[sterile jacinth]

The argument is that phantom was created on accident and gms didn’t know of their existence

[spark valve]

a child eternally young and subordinate and loyal etc

[humble peak]

Why do the threefold melodies use singular possessives when they're explicitly "the song of the Architects", "the voice of the Keepers", "the melody of the Conductors".
Surely it should be "the Architects' Melody", "the Vaultkeepers' Melody" and "the Conductors' Melody", no?

[limpid summit]

I think this is a clear juxtaposition between Lace and Weavers I wouldn’t lump in phantom just to strike something down

[frosty gate]

There's literally 0 chance of that lol

Phantom is very clearly discarded

[sterile jacinth]

That’s what I’m trying to argue yea lol

[spark valve]

it's a juxtaposition between lace and those who came before lace

most saliently weavers

[limpid summit]

Well Phantom was also spun frail

[sterile jacinth]

I think there’s only one at a time. Like one conductor one architect and one pontiff

Did I misread? If I did I apologize lol

[polar fiber]

im pretty suire it is, no?

[limpid summit]

To assume GMS discarded Phantom for working for the Citadel you have to assume the dialogue refers to Phantom as well that’s sort of circular

[humble peak]

I mean sure but it's the melody of their caste, of their people
Also there was definitely more than one Vaultkeeper at a time, even if only one pontiff

[limpid summit]

By?

[spark valve]

it's not really that circular when it's consistent with the rest of her actions

[humble peak]

No they use the form "Architect's", "Vaultkeeper's" and "Conductor's"
Suggesting possesion to only one

[limpid summit]

But Phantom is different

[humble peak]

Unless literally everything on the wiki got it wrong

[spark valve]

you're just saying that though

[limpid summit]

She’s more like Lace it doesn’t make sense for GMS to treat the process of making Lace like that if Phantom had already happened and was deliberately discarded for disloyalty

[polar fiber]

oh right mb

[spark valve]

unless lace was made with some differences

[frosty gate]

We don't know why Phantom was discarded

It probably wasn't disloyalty

[limpid summit]

You just said there was literally 0 chance of GMS not knowing she existed

[sterile jacinth]

This is speculation but I think the eternal child thing is exclusive to lace and was gms trying to make up for her mistakes with phantom

[limpid summit]

Or Lace is just kept eternally young because GMS sustains her

And phantom might have been the same if she was sustained

[humble peak]

We need more Phantom lore like she kinda just exists

[sterile jacinth]

Lace is not allowed to grow up in both a physical and mental way. That’s definitely gms doing. She wants an eternal child

[spark valve]

sustenance keeps lace alive that's not necessarily what stops her from aging mentally

[limpid summit]

Well yeah the mind that was probably inherent I meant the form

[frosty gate]

Because there isn't, but we players don't know why she was discarde

[limpid summit]

Well what do you think

[spark valve]

there are a bunch of potential reasons

[sterile jacinth]

I think phantom didn’t reach gms expectations. Or maybe gms feared betrayal again. Not unreasonable considering what happened with her last children

If phantom is working the organ willingly even in part they are sustaining the song and therefore betraying their mother

[limpid summit]

One being Phantom escaped notice creating a juxtaposition between GMS treating Lace as her holy effigy and Phantom basically being the same thing but ignored

Still perpetuating an idea of flawed motherhood without trying to make up some reason why GMS would discard Phamtom

She doesn’t even mention GMS (why)

[spark valve]

there are a lot of reasons why she would that would be consistent with her character it's not making stuff up

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is controlling. Children that grow up in an environment like that often rebel or are sometimes thrown out by their parents. We even see this with lace who’s grown sick of her mothers control over her

[spark valve]

and lace sure seems to think both were created deliberately in the needolin memory, plus the whole thing with the sisters is mommy issues it's not unreasonable to think the discarded and forgotten stuff is about gms by default

[limpid summit]

So when do you think Phantom wasborn

[sterile jacinth]

Before lace and after the weavers

Other than that idk it’s unclear

[spark valve]

it doesn't actually matter

[limpid summit]

Okay I don’t care

When do you think

[vestal swan]

are you really suggesting phantom came into being without GMS realizing?

[spark valve]

it seems odd to presume that she was created while gms was asleep

when she could have been created before

[limpid summit]

I mean lace was

[spark valve]

there's also not really a great reason to believe that

[sterile jacinth]

Asleep? yes. unconsciously? No probably not

[spark valve]

the silk heart scenes aren't memories

they reflect gms's beliefs now

and are being said now

[limpid summit]

Are you suggesting Lace is pre Citadel

[vestal swan]

My timeline looks like this
Weaver's
Some rebel (sinner/widow(?))
Phantom is made at an attempt for a better daughter
Full rebellion phantom included
Lace is made as a last ditch effort or a conscious creation during The haunting

[sterile jacinth]

Yea gms has some control over her actions even while asleep

[spark valve]

she could be

[limpid summit]

Really

[sterile jacinth]

I can see that. I do think phantom came after the rebellion tho

[spark valve]

that's very much a possibility

[vestal swan]

Lace is most likely a conscious creation, the timeline is just so tight it doesn't make a lot of sense to sandwich her in before

[timber pond]

"Asleep" might just weaken her power and not actually make GMS unconscious

[humble peak]

It seems unlikely but we can't really disprove it

[sterile jacinth]

We see the power of dreams in hollow knight

[limpid summit]

In Weaver times she didn’t do anything

In conductor times she started doing stuff cause of the experiments

[sinful nimbus]

Well the point of putting GMS to bed was to make it so she couldn't do anything

Its very odd to assume she could in fact do things in her deep slumber

The exception of course being the haunting

[sterile jacinth]

I think after the weaver rebellion phantom was created and then discarded and maybe phantom joined with the conductors who gave them silk if they worked in the exhaust organ

[limpid summit]

Haunting wasn’t deep slumber

It went deep slumber whiteward stirring silence haunting

Haunting as a major thing

Overall haunting started pre silence

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I think the haunting caused the silence of the song

[sinful nimbus]

She got out of the deep slumber with the haunting because of the WW experiments

[timber pond]

She could do things again when the song got weaker after the some time weavers left I presume. She is likely in a state of Sleep Paralysis IMO.

[vestal swan]

So wait idea, do we think they were actually taking silk from her or were they very ignorantly taking it from her prison because the citadel had fallen apart so much that they didn't realize what everything was meant for by that point

[sinful nimbus]

They were taking it from her

[timber pond]

The conductors probably forgor

[sterile jacinth]

I think they saw the effect silk could have (lengthening life) and the giant cocoon of silk sitting right above their citadel was too tempting to ignore. Greed was their downfall after all

[sinful nimbus]

The conductors don't really know what she is

Well they didn't

[timber pond]

And we're like "Hmm immortal pasta "

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah

“This will have no consequences:)”

“We are definitely not undermining the reason we maintain the song in the first place”

[spark valve]

surely injecting myself with the life force of the mysterious divine heart of the kingdom will have no adverse consequences

[sterile jacinth]

Absolutely:))

I think they knew they probably shouldn’t touch her cocoon but they were like eh a little immortality juice couldn’t hurt. What could possibly happen

[arctic cliff]

Originally, mist was called “dust maze”

Hey, a bench

[wintry flame]

phantom throwing dustpillos that oneshot you

[timber pond]

And then Ballador and the pontif figured it out again and said "damn we stupid" Saids the pontif, after getting Shot 47 Times.

[sterile jacinth]

They obviously hoard silk. They are tempting fate with the giant ball of silk literally right there

[humble peak]

There's no textual evidence they were actually harvesting Silk off of the cocoon afaik

[silk dirge]

i just realized the fleas probably found the pale oil somewhere in pale lake

is hornet blind or something

[vestal swan]

Nah they have treasures they brought with them or found somewhere else

[spark valve]

they were obsessed with the stuff and with the weavers being dead there's one source

[silk dirge]

i mean it would make sense they found a pale object at the pale place

[sterile jacinth]

It just makes sense to why the haunting came to be

And why the song stopped

[humble peak]

It's not an unreasonable assumption but it is an assumption

All we know for sure is the Whiteward shenanigans played a big part

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah it is. But it’s got enough evidence and thematic ties so it’s what I believe

[humble peak]

Yeah that's fine, I just think it's important to make the distinction

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s both. The foolish injection of silk into shells alongside weakening gms prison

[sinful nimbus]

Inferences can be true beyond a reasonable doubt

[spark valve]

it's not really an assumption when they used a fuckload of silk, they have access to a divine source of silk, and there's no other source, it's pretty obviously the case and it not being explicit doesn't make it not true

it's well beyond any point where it makes sense to hedge it as a maybe

[sterile jacinth]

Just because it’s the best/only explanation we have doesn’t necessarily make it true but there is enough evidence that I do believe it

[humble peak]

It's not unreasonable to assume GMS could have just passively been giving off a ton of Silk without them having to directly dig at the cocoon.

[silk dirge]

here you can see she was used as a loom

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but they also could get greedy

[silk dirge]

they harvested silk off her

[spark valve]

the cocoon is her silk there's not a difference there

[sterile jacinth]

Their downfall is their greed and decadence

[spark valve]

I mean this is probably the haunting

[silk dirge]

thats true

[humble peak]

There's a difference between taking silk that builds up and falls off and taking it directly off the cocoon and making the seal weaker.

[spark valve]

that's still coming from the cocoon ultimately

[humble peak]

Though tbh we don't even know that the cocoon itself plays any part in the seal? The big part is the song.
It could just be a byproduct of her being asleep

[spark valve]

I mean yeah harvesting silk wasn't the problem it was injecting it

[humble peak]

I don't understand what you are trying to argue. Yes it is ultimately from the cocoon but in a way that is completely different from the purposes we are discussing.

[sterile jacinth]

It could be both

[spark valve]

it's gms's silk the cocoon isn't the binding

[unique canopy]

Hornet does describe the cocoon as GMS' protective form, and it's what's keeping the void out in the Lost Lace arena, consciously by GMS

[humble peak]

I feel like you are entirely on my side but have missed the context of the conversation and ended up arguing with me

[timber pond]

Man, the Denizens will inject anything into thier bloodstreams💀

[humble peak]

In that case yeah

[spark valve]

maybe, I thought you were saying it wasn't really confirmed the silk they were using was from gms at all

[humble peak]

no lmao

[spark valve]

alr

[vestal swan]

They have me blocked so they did miss the initial question

[humble peak]

bro

lmao

[spark valve]

but yeah it doesn't really matter if they were directly pulling at the cocoon by hand anyways

[timber pond]

This is why blocking pepole is for cowards tbh

[silk dirge]

@ grok if i inject microplastics into myself will it grant me immortality?

[spark valve]

knowing elon it might say yes

[edgy nebula]

grok: yes

[humble peak]

I love how GMS is "asleep" and "on the cusp of waking" and that's like the whole thing and when she finally does wake up that's bad but apparently she's well awake enough to throw hands when Hornet shows up

[silk dirge]

yeah 😭

[timber pond]

[spark valve]

it seems like the idea is hornet just gets there right in time which is a bit silly but far from the worst imaginable contrivance

[humble peak]

She only wakes up when Hornet challenges her, though

[spark valve]

she's described as desperate to wake, if she could do it sooner she would've

[sinful nimbus]

They really really wanted to ripoff Rad

[tepid mountain]

Hornet’s challenge just pisses her off so bad that it jolts her awake.

[unique canopy]

Hornet's also the only one to actually play the threefold melody since the Dancers were created (since presumably nobody else had actually beaten the Dancers) so that probably has something to do with it

[silk dirge]

GARAMA

[spark valve]

it's not that egregious a conceit to have a plot event happen as the protagonist arrives

[humble peak]

conceit

[spark valve]

the threefold melody as a product of the citadel would likely not wake her

[silk dirge]

the threefold melody is probably what kept her asleep

[spark valve]

I mean yeah it appears to be a coincidence the timing is what it is

[humble peak]

I don't think conceit means what you think it does lol

[unique canopy]

I'm not sure what the point of it would be if it didn't, since it also activates the lift to get to the Cradle

[spark valve]

in this context it does

[timber pond]

I feel like hornet sort of "Undid" the last mechanism with no one to remaintain it lol

[silk dirge]

the threefold melody is "the" silksong that was used to keep gms asleep likely

[humble peak]

Hmm
I must apologize. I was not familiat with your linguistic game.

[humble peak]

The Threefold Melody is just a test for pilgrims to pass
There's nothing to indicate it's particularly effective at keeping GMS asleep or anything

[silk dirge]

there are a few things actually

the top of cogwork core

[humble peak]

Oh? Do share.

[sterile jacinth]

I can fulfill both purposes

[silk dirge]

the pontiff finding the citadels true purpose in the vault melody

[spark valve]

I mean the vaultkeeper melody specifically explicitly does have the spell

[timber pond]

Im convinced when hornet plays the threefold melody the final time, the citadel completely stops working after

[spark valve]

and yeah the architect melody being pumped right into the cradle

[humble peak]

Why?

[unique canopy]

The main thing is, why would they make the Dancers to prevent people from playing the Threefold Melody if they're not strong enough if it's the Threefold Melody that keeps her asleep? They would want everyone playing it constantly around the clock.

[spark valve]

the citadel doesn't really do music that isn't for that purpose

[timber pond]

Just cause GMS wakes up right afterwards and it makes the most sense as to why.

[humble peak]

Circumstantial evidence at best

[spark valve]

they're not for that, hornet is a random outsider them attacking her doesn't mean they attacked every pilgrim

she's not supposed to be there

[ancient sinew]

Hi Adre

[humble peak]

h...i? Sorry who are you?

[silk dirge]

dancers seem conductor era so probably they weren't made to recognize weavers

[spark valve]

I mean that aside just carrying a weapon means she's not a legit pilgrim

[silk dirge]

yeah

[ancient sinew]

We discussed the Slabfly entries a couple weeks ago, you probably don’t remember me but I just wanted to say hello seeing as it’s been a while

[humble peak]

"No sir this isn't a weapon it's just my instrument for song"
"Needle? No you misheard, this is my Need...olin"

[humble peak]

Oh cool

[spark valve]

it's similar to LJ, killing LJ isn't actually a part of the pilgrimage she's supposed to just let you pass if you're good enough

[unique canopy]

We know the Weavers wanted someone to come back and beat GMS to free them, and it seems like Hornet ended up being intended for that purpose. There's the corpses in the spires intended for someone to bind their skills, including deep in the Underworks of the Citadel itself right below the Architects' work room. imo the Dancers and Threefold Melody were meant to be a test for that person to make sure they were strong enough to actually beat GMS instead of just losing and letting her roam free.

[silk dirge]

honestly it wouldve been really cool if they added some really hard skip to moss mother so you could actually skip last judge like the cut code

[humble peak]

Yeah that'd be awesome

[spark valve]

the idea of just tracking number of kills would also work so you could do required fights but yeah

[lean temple]

I mean the entry for dancers says they mimicked the deadly dance of GP and his partner

[humble peak]

Also bring back Strung to Serve 🔥

[lean temple]

"Automatons of impeccable construction, welcoming entrants to their chambers with a display of deadly dance."

[spark valve]

but you see how that doesn't really change that it wouldn't make sense for them to attack pilgrims

[humble peak]

wait no
they could just add a full pilgrimage route
No killing, just go up through the steps, pass the last judge's judgement, get the melodies
and then idk they could do something cool

[teal drift]

Imagine being a citadel tourist going to see the great wonder of the clockwork dancers, then they just straight up kill you.

[lean temple]

Everything in Pharloom wants Pilgrims dead. I don't see how this is unusual

[timber pond]

What purpose do they serve then. Besides maintaining the core.

[silk dirge]

1 ticket for a show of the cogwork dancers please

[teal drift]

Theyre a spectacle of art

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage is dangerous but once bugs get to the citadel they've been judged worthy they aren't just gonna kill them for no reason

[humble peak]

Well when the Citadel was functional it was meant to be a safe place, the end of the pilgrimage

yeah

[silk dirge]

being grand

[spark valve]

pilgrims die in the pilgrimage but the pilgrimage isn't intended just as a meat grinder

[teal drift]

Tbf they will do silk experiments on you for no reason or put you into a machine, even once youre in the citadel.

[lean temple]

Good point. Arguably even the Citadel isn't fully safe tho (whiteward and underworks)

[humble peak]

That's into its decline

[spark valve]

sure but that's for specific ends, not just "haha you stepped in the death room"

[ancient sinew]

Congratulations on completing the pilgrimage now you get to be a slave for the rest of your life also if you get sick or injured we’ll send you to the gulag

[silk dirge]

cogwork core is also very unsafe for a pilgrim probably

[humble peak]

Well the core wasn't meant for pilgrims

[silk dirge]

yeah

[teal drift]

I probably feel like the real answer is they werent violent to pilgrims and theyre violent to hornet because of haunting or an intruder detection mechanism

[spark valve]

that's what I'm sayin

[teal drift]

If you go to clockwork dancers without a ticket they kill you ❤️

[spark valve]

hornet is an intruder shit can respond to her differently

[ancient sinew]

Well they judge them that’s their job

[timber pond]

Well, for most.

[humble peak]

the underworks were probably established into the decline and whiteward was probably a lot safer when it wasn't full of actual zombies

[spark valve]

the underworks also aren't designed with the intent of killing workers

it's just apathetic

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah but the design of it is extremely negligent

[humble peak]

idk what's going on with high halls though like ig they just like spikes

[ancient sinew]

Hornet is judged as being unworthy of entering but she kills the guard and enters anyway at that point she’s an intruder also everything is haunted and wants to kill her anyway

[teal drift]

The dancers also maybe just guarded the cradle in general which probably was never widely accessible

[humble peak]

that makes sense

[silk dirge]

underworks is not meeting any OSHA standard

[spark valve]

of course but compare to if cogwork dancers were literally just supposed to slaughter any pilgrim who goes in the room they have to go in to finish the pilgrimage

[teal drift]

High halls is just a place where flying bugs can feel superior

[silk dirge]

olaris

[humble peak]

honestly makes sense

[teal drift]

Tbf it makes sense that the conductor area would be super hostile in its architecture they were assholes.

[silk dirge]

wait didnt trobbiani voice the maestros also

that makes sense for why their voices are so memorable

[humble peak]

man idk

[limpid summit]

You know we never see a Weaver with Pharlid Diver attack patterns

Widow lowkey probably looked like FS

[humble peak]

we see two weavers total

[limpid summit]

Like she didn’t have the round mask

There’s that cut memory but it’s cut

[humble peak]

actually don't both of them have a diving attack

[limpid summit]

Yeah but it’s a forward dive right

[timber pond]

Kind of yes

[humble peak]

yeah they do
they spawn in the air and do a slashing dive

and then usually follow it up with the slashing run

[ancient sinew]

ehhhhhhhhhhhh

[spark valve]

I mean they’re both weavers

[ancient sinew]

He specifically means the head shape obviously all Weavers look similar to one another

[lean temple]

Sure sound like him

[silk dirge]

first sinner deciding to troll hornet by not teaching her silk teleportation(rune rage is still cool tho)

[silk dirge]

i think he said in an interview

idk the exact timestamp
https://youtu.be/3p5A7mQDlLg?si=iRH2b-J0mPtKw0Dj

[lean temple]

Yeah the Maestro page links it but there's no statement he's the VA. Probably still under edit

[ancient sinew]

I know cut content isn’t canon but the sprites of Widow’s mutilation seem to depict her with a round head. Also, every Weaver except for FS has a round head, as does every depiction of them. So it’s equally possible that the reason FS looks the way she does is because she’s the primal “Eve” of the species rather than being evidence of Weavers having different head shapes.

[sinful nimbus]

You didn't need to bring up cut content

[ancient sinew]

I know

[sinful nimbus]

Especially as your first point

[silk dirge]

this would also make sense with her being atla and weavenest atla having eva

very biblical reference coded

[ancient sinew]

Do you have anything nice to say

[spark valve]

fs and widow also have the different body types with fs having shoulder spines and widow having the hip ones

[ancient sinew]

It’s the first thing that popped into my head

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe not to you.

[lean temple]

They literally said they know it isn't canon idk what the problem is

[ancient sinew]

Yes but that kind of variation is normal for Weavers

[limpid summit]

cut content
random irl reference

It’s ok silksongfan I know you’re sort of new here

[ancient sinew]

All of the Weaver husks have slightly different spines

[sinful nimbus]

Why are they bringing up non-canon content

[spark valve]

I know I'm just saying they aren't really patterned the same so assuming they would look identical with widow's head intact is additionally odd

[sinful nimbus]

"I know its not canon but in my fanfic Widow has FS's head"

[silk dirge]

i mean we do presumably see widow with her mask in her post fight cutscene

[spark valve]

it's possible that that's her

[limpid summit]

It may be her

But it’s not confirmed!

[spark valve]

it does seem to be the implication though

[ancient sinew]

The point is they all look the same with the same round head FS is the exception

[lean temple]

Forget the cut sprites. Every single Weaver ever shown has an orb head except FS so Widow was likely the same. Happy now?

[ancient sinew]

Even the rest of the Weavers in Widow’s cutscene

[sinful nimbus]

What about Herrah

Widow could've been horned for all we know

[spark valve]

fs is probably just unique and it's not a 'oh a lot of weavers are like this'

[ancient sinew]

Herrah doesn’t look like the other Weavers because she was never intended to be one