sk-lore

[manic pewter]

oh god are we kratt to gms

[silk dirge]

its just big cave with ancient civilization pillars

anyways most useless weaver goes to weavenest karn

what the fuck was she doing there

she made like nothing useful

sharpdart aint doing shit to gms

[visual glacier]

Thats canon i think

Based on the description of the big laser eyes

[silk dirge]

but yeah karn has no lore no interesting tool its just a mid silk skill

karn was a fucking fraud

[manic pewter]

bro used sharpdart what is there to be scared of

[silk dirge]

anyways yeah karn and absolom are for sure the most unexplained weavenests

[lethal burrow]

Iterater name: 12 stars of timber, mysteries abound

[silk dirge]

can anyone check if karn has anything notable

[cobalt coyote]

Which one is that

Maybe it was bigger but the burrowing worms collapsed it?

[dawn sluice]

who’s ccmaci

[dawn sluice]

rain world reference yay

thanks

this guy

[cedar dock]

What guy?

[dawn sluice]

a guy

[mighty zealot]

hello sk lore

[silk dirge]

hello

[dawn sluice]

hello i am embodiment of sk lore

[cedar dock]

Hi girlwithnojob8682

[mighty zealot]

yo

[mighty zealot]

hello ccmaci :D. love your content dude :D

[silk dirge]

hello people i havent seen in this channel before

welcome to plasmium: the channel

[dawn sluice]

hello person i haven’t seen in this channel before

[mighty zealot]

hai :D

[dawn sluice]

i wonder why they changed the name from life blood to plasmium

[silk dirge]

this channel is literally a drug you get addicted to all the stupid arguing in here

its literally plasmium

[dawn sluice]

dai >:)

[dawn sluice]

will i regenerate if i stab myself enough

which are the topics

was pale beings ever a term used in game
i forgot to be honest with ya

i only just heard the term now to be honest

“pale being”

[quartz salmon]

what is that steel seer rune and where does it appear

[dawn sluice]

i feel like its a kind of word to evoke a more “grandiose” feeling
white monarch sounds less imposing than pale monarch

yeah

anyway
hollow knight shows us how unresolved tension between two rulers of different areas and domains makes for a broken kingdom
silk song shows us how unresolved tension between rulers of the same area and domain makes for a terrible kingdom

[bright silo]

no, the Radiance is a higher being but is (conspiciously) never descibed as pale

also the Shade Lord, Nightmare Heart and Unn

[sudden ginkgo]

Is geo made from bugs shells?

[bright silo]

I mean like half of the higher beings we know are pale

and Hornet is also described as "pale" several times, despite only being a demi-higher-being

[bright silo]

"fossilised shells of various forms"

so presumably

[bright silo]

The knight is also described as pale (by Tiso at least)

[random harbor]

Tiso - Dirtmouth - Listening next to the well

Pale thing. You wear that nail with ease. If you're in search of combat, you'll find no great warriors in this decaying burrow.
I've heard an arena exists somewhere below. One built for our like. Meet me there and we'll test what skills you possess.
I'll be heading down soon. Come and find me if you dare.

@invariance. used /npcs wanderers name: Tiso category: Dirtmouth dialogue: Listening next to the well

[lofty galleon]

it seemed to me that pale beings are categorized as having a disposition of conquering, like they are known rulers and kingdom makers

or at the very least are consistently connected to it

[bright silo]

yeah definitely, Hornet talks about it being in her nature in the context of being pale IIRC

[lofty galleon]

right so maybe thats the long and short of it, could also explain their inherent connection to soul since that is an art that requires taking or collecting it from lesser bugs

tying back into that pale gods are just conquering or lordly bugs to that degree

[bright silo]

hmm, rereading some of the dialogue it may not be as explicit as I thought (as opposed to being a higher being in general), but it was definitely my impression

Ah, I think I was recalling the Green Prince dialogue

caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow

the white lady is also referred to as pale

[lofty galleon]

that makes me wonder if the connection between the cold and paleness has to do with things that are cold being destructive or consuming

like frost that rots food, or cold winters that kill en masse

[shut rune]

I finally did it

Cursed ending

[lofty galleon]

I wonder if bugs described cold things as feeling pale first, as in stark or how cold things look. And when meeting the pale beings and their white shells just connected the two as being similar in nature

or vice versa

also would make Mount Fay into something possibly

[sudden ginkgo]

Just lays there like a natural rock

[bright silo]

I don't think the pale beings need to be linked with literally cold places, any more than you'd like Grimm with a hot place like the deep docks

[lofty galleon]

I wouldn't think of linking pale beings directly to cold places

but rather bugs in cold places seeing something of them in the pale beings in a sort of like, familiarity of form, which could be more of a linguistics thing broken down further in how older species thought of things

but this is all vague musing at it's best, not nearly as much water as the earlier thoughts

maybe it has something to do with the nature of pale things being conquering, using masks to control their minds and souls

granting them more dominion over themselves

could also explain more about why pale beings tend to be exceptionally adept at granting bugs higher thought, once again using paleness to conquer mind and body into ascension

just in a kind of more overarching version of what masks do

[bright silo]

Yeah, I'd tie it more into the Pale-King's-light-grants-sapiance thing if I had to connect it to the pale beings

[bright silo]

note that a bunch of creatures seem to naturally have masks

...like maskflys

or the vessals

not all masks come from the mask maker

[lofty galleon]

Well it may just be that they don't need it, but for the bugs that do it requires the paleness to have that functionality

examples of which being how bugs without wings can be given wings but they need to come from a special source like the faydown cloak or monarch wings

just with, sentience instead of a bodily appendage

[bright silo]

many inanimate objects have "pale" properties: everbloom, pale ore, pale oil, the mask lacquer, and (apparently and notably) soul

all the non-void creatures in HK have soul (and Silksong has the snail shamans managing to collect it)

so "paleness" doesn't appear to be just the domain of the pale beings

[lofty galleon]

oh absolutely for sure, it's probably just a facet of every living thing to varying degrees, which is part of what makes a pale being so notable

It is possible that paleness and how much of it a thing has determines how much of that innate dominance it has, and therefore what makes a being entirely or at least mostly made from that such a terrible force on the world

[random harbor]

Mask Maker - Unmasked - Concealing a face

To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence.
The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self.

@invariance. used /npcs misc name: Mask Maker category: Unmasked dialogue: Concealing a face

[bright silo]

also that ^

[lofty galleon]

gods what a creature that thing is, feel like I could skip it across a lake

exactly

but yeah, it feels like to me that conquering and dominate nature, that overrides and focuses other parts of a being, is the main descriptor that makes something pale

with cold things getting wrapped up into that due to harsh frosts and coldness also working pretty well under those descriptors

[astral arrow]

Whiteward enemies be like

[lofty galleon]

oh, now we have no idea what whiteward enemies be like

[supple echo]

What's worse? The Haunting or the infection caused by The Radiance?

[old meteor]

The infection could deteriate bodys while feeling it but with no control

[sterile jacinth]

Rads infection seems a lot more aggressive and violent

Gms feels like she wants control while rad wants vengeance

[viscid ridge]

Ngl, its probably nothing, but Hunter looks suspiciously like a weaver, with exception to the amount of legs

[viscid ridge]

The haunting essentially uses the silk that are tied around the innards of bugs to control them, while the infection was bursting out in any way it could

[regal crow]

Vengeance for what?

[lone folio]

For the pale king who took everything from her?

[regal crow]

Um, actually, I don’t anything about radiance before the infection. Could you explain?

[lone folio]

She was very powerful back

[heavy gyro]

Is weaver's den a weavenest

[lone folio]

Oop

I sent that by accident

[cobalt coyote]

I think its just their den

[heavy gyro]

Itd be cool if it was actually called weavenest herrah or something and it's called weavers den because cornifer/the knight dont know the actual name

[thin grove]

Hello guys

[lone folio]

Anyways before the pale king arrived she was doing really good and she had created her own people who were the moths like the seer and markoth. I also think that essence based higher beings need other bugs to gain power and after the pale king arrived the moths decided that he was a better god and the radiance was mostly forgotten and was also weaker then before so she wanted to get revenge at the higher being who took everything away

[regal crow]

Sore loser much? Damn

[lone folio]

We don't really know much else except for the fact that she calls the void her "ancient enemy" so maybe she had some scuffles with the void

[viscid ridge]

I never really saw Radiance as vengeful, i saw her as desperate. She was forgotten by her tribe, so if the bugs of hallownest couldn't remember her, she will force them to remember her

[heavy gyro]

She was vengeful since there was no reason to infect literally everyone

[lone folio]

Well yeah but wouldn't she still be a bit vengeful?

[lone folio]

Except to get her past glory back

[heavy gyro]

She couldve just targeted the moths but instead targeted everyone

[lone folio]

Well probably to actually get more power then before

[viscid ridge]

You have to remember that it seems like most of the moths have died long before the second wave of the infection started.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah of course, but she still feels incredibly desperate to get out. It feels more like she is doing everything in her power to break free from the hollow knight, more than it does she is infecting everyone to be a dick. But honestly its up to your own interpretation

[lethal burrow]

Desperation and vengeance are not at odds with each other. I would say.

[molten python]

How many "waves" were there in total? Three?

[viscid ridge]

2 probably

[lethal burrow]

2

there was the first one and then the hollow knight project kept the radiance contained for a little bit and then it spread out again

[heavy gyro]

Isnt there technically a third wave, after which the knight arrived to hallownest

Like the opening cutscene

[lethal burrow]

oh ig but that's more of an increase to something that was already happening then something new, like there wasn't really a pause you know? It was just sort of an increase in severity, and if we're judging the waves that way, then we might as well separate the first wave into two because there was the time when it was only in people's heads and not actually affecting anyone physically

[viscid ridge]

That is the start of the second wave, it probably started long before the knight came to hallownest

[lethal burrow]

idk characters in the game talk about the air having stirred recently about new stuff happening.

Quarrel even says like "what a time I choose to visit this kingdom, the air grows thick and corpses rise!" or something like that

[cobalt coyote]

Quarrel, my favorite character.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, i can understand that other bugs only recently got infected, but i mean that the Infection probably started leaking out again way before.

My reason for saying this is because elder bug says that the braver amongst them prayed at the temple, but as we can see they are all long dead, aswell as the stag stations being closed before elderbug was born. So i can understand that the bugs only recently got infected, i also think that it probably has been like that for quite a while. We also have to remember that the city of tears has been locked for so long that everyone in the City started eating eachother.

[visual glacier]

What’s the discussion?

[viscid ridge]

Kinda a nothingburger, just wondering how long the second wave of the infection has been going on before the knight came back to Hallownest

[visual glacier]

Probably not too long

I think it was implied that the knight somehow sensed when the hollow knight cracked and infection started leaking so they came back

I don’t remember where it was implied though

[craggy smelt]

dreamers yell about that when they first show up in Greenpath

[visual glacier]

Alr ty

I checked and I don’t think they do

They just say “let us sleep” and don’t break the seals

[craggy smelt]

oh yeah, it was actually the second time they show up, in Resting Grounds

What compels its climb out of the darkness? What compels its return to this sacred kingdom?
A call from beyond the Seals?
By the Vessel, or by that captive light?

[visual glacier]

Sick

[craggy smelt]

I knew they talked about it at some point

[tame schooner]

Crust King khann name is kinda funny cuz “ khann (хаан) “ means king in my native language so his name is just Crust king king . Not much of lore tho just lil thing I noticed

[maiden meteor]

I wonder if all Vessels get like summon ping when Vessel begins to falter

Maybe because they’re sorta connected in a proto-hivemind by void or smth

[lethal burrow]

haha a true backer character "hmm, what should I name my OC? It should be something fitting, but not too obvious... I'll make it something in a different language!"

[maiden meteor]

Sharpe

[compact pelican]

yes, kingsoul

wait no that's just higher

gimme a moment

but generally yes

it is a term that was used in the first game

[maiden meteor]

Vespa dialogue: "If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek. It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature."

so yeah

[compact pelican]

ah right, vespa

ty

[tame schooner]

Oh crust king is a backer character? I didn’t know lol

[maiden meteor]

I wonder what really defines Pale Beings

except, yknow, pale glow

I don’t think it’s power level too cause Rad seemingly isn’t Pale but still really damn strong

[compact pelican]

generally, team cherry

[compact pelican]

consider godseeker's dialogue though

I don't remember the exact dialogue off the top of my head but the lingering beacon shows PK is strong as fuck, and she mentions WL would've been so powerful if she didn't restrain/contain/limit herself

[maiden meteor]

true but Rad was still able to overpower PK’s mind aura

I guess it’s because she is dream goddess or smth

[compact pelican]

Radiance in her perfect form is "god of gods" due to one of the pale beings being absent and the other one shutting herself away from th world

[compact pelican]

wdym?

[maiden meteor]

Like she has 90% of Hallownest under her control

[compact pelican]

ok?

what does "overpower pk's mind aura" mean

he gave them sapience, she controls them

there's no clash of power here

[maiden meteor]

hmm

[compact pollen]

so do higher beings just have an innate desire to be worshipped?
pale king created a bountiful kingdom
radiance didnt want to be forgotten
gms formed beings that would serve her eternally

as far as others go, like unn, im not entirely sure (something to do with mosskin i guess)

[maiden meteor]

Hard to tell tbh

[compact pelican]

Not really

• WL doesn't gaf
• Unn is busy not caring about much
• NH is fucking around doing its own thing
• Void entity actively destroys the place that wants to worship it

[maiden meteor]

Rad implied to almost ceased to exist because Moths forgotten her but she’s a dream entity

so probably it’s only she thing

[compact pelican]

Take this statement with a grain of salt but Radiance doesn't want to be forgotten because she doesn't want to fucking die

[maiden meteor]

Yeah that’s what I’m sayin

[teal drift]

Radiance a chud fr

[maiden meteor]

she would die if completely forgotten

but she also exists within dream realm that is directly tied to memory

so maybe forgetting her would equal just wiping her out

[compact pelican]

And so you're left with PK and GMS wanting to be worshipped to some degree, but that could be explained as them being pale rather than HB, or alternatively just, yknow. them specifically being like that

[maiden meteor]

Maybe HBs feed not from worship itself but from like mind/memory energy

we know NH feeds off well, nightmares

[compact pelican]

you fill the world with enough godlike beings, some of them will take to ruling and being worshipped. Not because it's anything inherent just because that's how people are

[maiden meteor]

We also know Unn’s power is severely diminished which might be because Mosskin are slowly forgetting her

[compact pelican]

(pale beings do seem to have an inherent drive to be worshipped, though)

(I think. I'm not strong with any Silksong info)

[maiden meteor]

We know GMS wanted Weavers to sustain her light with song

[lethal burrow]

ye one of the top-tier ones from like way back, same with karm

[maiden meteor]

WL is also uh, interesting case

[compact pelican]

or maybe there really isn't any generalisation that could/should be made other than "damn they strong af"

[maiden meteor]

while she didn’t search direct worship we know she has the urge to propagate

[compact pelican]

like really I don't see why it needs to get deeper than that unless we have a reference for it being deeper than that

[lethal burrow]

personally, I think it's much more interesting if they want to worship for character reasons as opposed to like nourishment reasons

[compact pelican]

Interesting she's a weird case in your eyes because of that and not because of the fact that she's not really a bug at all

[lethal burrow]

Whatever that means

[maiden meteor]

I don’t discriminate

Plants are just weird in HK

[compact pelican]

anyways I gtg

did not mean to talk in here at all originally

[lethal burrow]

Come again soon

dry vains need fresh blood

[timber pond]

Mabye the same reason pale king wanted worshipers. Pale beings might be sustained by Devotion in some capacity. Or mabye they are made stronger by it.

Its just that the pale kings methods were transactional while GMS Just kinda like "Hmm, what if I FORCED them to do this? "

[maiden meteor]

Well GMS was more like “What if I ascend some bugs and gaslight them into believing they’re my divine daughters”

[timber pond]

Yeah fair

[ebon silo]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Wv0KE3O8omk?si=E3K3rReSO_WrjJKM woah new lore that I found

It looks like GMS tried to replicate other species

But failed in doing so

[craggy smelt]

huh, interesting

like she wanted to replace them with her puppets

[cosmic parcel]

I think the Silksomg is like a half sibling of the Hollow Knight

Not sure tho

[craggy smelt]

it's their fourth cousin once removed's half step-uncle

[ebon silo]

Y'know considering the needolin has 3 functions Up and Down and no extra input do you guys think there'll be a left and right needolin input?

like idk a right needolin which only works if idk let's say you go in the sands of karak and play it and it reverts back to past version until and your stuck in that region until you play the needolin again

[foggy fractal]

maybe in a dlc

[heavy gyro]

probably not since dream nail had just 3 functions too

[craggy smelt]

right needolin summons the fayforn for a strafing run, while left needolin manifests delicious cake

[naive lake]

🤔 Are craws affected by the haunting or are they just wild

[unique tangle]

It’s used by Steel Seer Zi

[maiden meteor]

50/50 it seems

[craggy smelt]

they're suggested to be Haunted but can resist its full effects, given that they fear the coming of the Void but are still vulnerable to being Void-Haunted

[unique tangle]

You can see it around her

[abstract rivet]

Why is every character is so sleepy, lace sleeps, seth sleeps, fourth chorus sleeps, pinstress sleeps, fleas sleep, hornet sleeps at one point

sleepy bigbacks have jobs to do bro

[craggy smelt]

sleep is for the weak

...goodnight everybody

[abstract rivet]

husks also sleep

lazy asses don’t wake up till their big god tells them to

Smh..

[teal drift]

Was there massive inflation going on in the citadel? why everyone so rich.

Gonna do some research into silksong inflation to figure this out

[quartz salmon]

i am observing

[naive lake]

I see, well tgank you

[maiden meteor]

trickle down economy

GMS is actually Reagan in disguise

[lean temple]

The Masters also have a long gaze

Makes sense they'd give a similar ability to their Steelhearts

[balmy vortex]

lowkey

grand mother silk is not grandmother silk

[light mauve]

Well probably not

Yeah

She is not a grandmother

She is a grand mother

[balmy vortex]

"grand" is simply her title

[light mauve]

Yeah

[balmy vortex]

so she's mother silk

[light mauve]

Like the ultimate mother silk

Imagine

[balmy vortex]

wait, is her name silk or is she named that because shes a mother of a being made of silk? (lace)

[cobalt coyote]

I think you replied to the wrong thing

Mb didnt read

[lean temple]

Her name is silk

[balmy vortex]

ah ok

[lean temple]

She's mother to the Weavers, Phantom, Lace, and calls Hornet child. She's grand because she's a god

[tawdry veldt]

ngl i thought she was grand because she old </3

[balmy vortex]

what if lace has a child, will she become grand grandmother silk?

[naive lake]

How is lace gonna have a child

dont answer

[balmy vortex]

idk mitosis or smth

[naive lake]

nvm that was better than expected

[balmy vortex]

...thats the normal answer

how would a being made of silk reproduce anyway

[naive lake]

after walking in on #sk-discussion yesterday i no longer have any expectancies

[balmy vortex]

lol

[lean temple]

I guess?

That's the case with Hornet and all the other part Weavers

[simple hedge]

No, she'd be great grandmother silk right?

[naive lake]

Grand great grandmother silk

are skarrs just straight up racist with each other for having the wrong color pattern

[lean temple]

It's not clear tbh what the mottling means

They say "our mark is no curse" but idk what causes it in that case

[naive lake]

hm

[lean temple]

It's possible they're another tribe of Skarr. One theory is that the marking are to distinguish them as not being Haunted

Back to this the far sight runes look like lines on a music sheet (fitting). Maybe the Steel rune has treble clefts on it too? I wonder if these are related to the vitruvian grun in any way? Or more likely to the secret room in Grimm's tent with the apparatus

[simple hedge]

That seems to be plausible. The mottling ones are coherent

[balmy vortex]

no

because, "grand" is her title

she's mother silk

[simple hedge]

So it would be grand grandmother silk. I see, yes this makes sense

[balmy vortex]

yes

[vestal swan]

Gmaw silk

[vestal swan]

Where does that first thing appear

[lean temple]

Around Zi apparently. I took the image from someone in the chat

[willow epoch]

1. First Sinner
2. Second Sentinel
3. ???
4. Fourth Chorus
5. ???
6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???
11. ???
12. Twelfth Architect

[willow epoch]

team cherry invented counting

[teal drift]

Each one has more factors than all the ones that came before it

Using this logic the next number would be uh 24th conductor i guess

The 36th maestro

[foggy fractal]

around Zi apparently

[lean temple]

The background

[vestal swan]

Probably just a super complicated protection thing? It shows up when you hit her with a spell right

[lean temple]

It's visible here (tho faintly)

Jinn didn't have one so why would Zi be special

[sinful nimbus]

Young or something idk

Jinn will get her magic runes in the same update that renames Weavers' Den to Weavenest Herrah

[sonic dawn]

this dialogue from the herald screams at me that hornet and lace will travel together

also both lace's and hornet's pins are in the menu together

[lean temple]

Mister Mushroom is always rambling about unknown things. Best we can do is guess what he's referring to

[sinful nimbus]

Celeste

[sonic dawn]

mmmm still

lace is made of silk, hornet makes silk

[lean temple]

The theory is that Jinn doesn't need them. Her job isn't to see. Zi's job is to see and record so she needs far sight runes.

[sonic dawn]

the question is, can lace survive without getting silk?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

"Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained"

(Its in past tense since Hornet presumed her to be dead)

[vestal swan]

Hornet could also just let her age or give her silk when she's damaged instead of maintaining the immortal child spell

[vestal swan]

Do we know if any of these are actually fourth wall breaks because I can see both of those answers being right

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a spell what

[fossil sage]

Wtf is this nasa ending

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is literally made of silk she just needs the stuff to be alive

[vestal swan]

I mean like her entire existence is enchanted so if like you keep supplying her she'll stay a child? And I figured it would take special maintaining to keep her that way

[cedar owl]

no, it's always fading in and out

[sinful nimbus]

No but them being game references seems likely

[vestal swan]

I mean yeah it does seem likely knowing he does that but I didn't catch anything else that screamed "reference" to me

[sinful nimbus]

Well she was never designed to age in the first place she was "shaped to act as a child"

[vestal swan]

Pinocchio forever she never gets to be a real girl, until the city of steel when she gets compressed into a new body and still not be a real girl

Silk homunculus to steel homunculus

[lean temple]

Weapon works at TC confirmed

We know your secrets

[vestal swan]

I got to remember to contain my stupid predictions because of how many of them came true

[lean temple]

I think in the cradle he was maybe referencing the Weavers wanting to be free of GMS? Or pharloom being free of the Citadel idk

[sinful nimbus]

Why is this in the Lace dialogue

[vestal swan]

Where does that dialogue even go

[sinful nimbus]

Sis learned nothing from saying "I won't risk my own life in your attempt"

[cedar owl]

huh, this is pretty interesting

[sinful nimbus]

?

[vestal swan]

When is that line said

Also I don't think that thing looks like farsight at all

It's like a chain link fence versus a spiky jacket

[sinful nimbus]

Right before Lost Lace

[vestal swan]

That's what I thought but then I'm like the line doesn't make sense

I guess hornet just does a bunch of Aura farming like she did in hollow Knight
"That egg will drain me I won't help you in your attempt"
Shows up anyway

[cedar owl]

I think it's possible that the sentinel rune is Zi's world sense
knowing the state of the pharloom is her job after all

[sinful nimbus]

This is the same line where she says "I remain a daughter of Hallownest" what can you expect

[lean temple]

Hornet is saying she won't succumb and stuff

[sinful nimbus]

tbf she does say she'll "aid as I'm able"

[vestal swan]

Why doesn't she just tie a bunch of pimpillos to the flower and be done with it

[lean temple]

Well it wouldn't look identical since one is Weaver made and the other is from the Masters

[vestal swan]

Or whatever the grenade is called

[sinful nimbus]

Close enough welcome back "Why didn't PK just throw the vessel into the void lake"

[cedar owl]

btw Zi can sense things happening far away
"The wish? No... pale It... Zi sensed clear your meeting... The rite... The vassal is tarnished."

[vestal swan]

Yeah but I mean visually it doesn't look like it's doing the same kind of thing? Like one is radiating outward from the character, one is like a giant matrix pattern flowing down

[cedar owl]

well regardless, it is confirmed that Zi has a "farsight" of her own

she can sense the summoned savior boss fight

[vestal swan]

Not very effective, seems more like a void radar

[sinful nimbus]

huh

[lean temple]

The Masters have a long gaze (literally just another way of saying far sight) so it's logical they can endow Steelhearts with similar abilities

[vestal swan]

Like "yep somebody summon void, must have been the stupid vassal"
If her sensing ability could find the ritual just like that then she would have found the vassel wouldn't she?

[cedar owl]

and Zi can track the movements of sula
"Zi has sensed their movement... She knows their places of rest. For pale It... Zi shall mark their chart."

[vestal swan]

Okay Zi s just a lazy bastard then

[lean temple]

Something like "oh it isn't MY job to track them down and bring them back"

Because she knows where Sula is

[cedar owl]

Zi can see you inside the bath house

[lean temple]

Get the Kratt treatment

[vestal swan]

That reminds me did the sprite where it looks like hornet is taking off her cloak actually appear in the game somewhere

[sinful nimbus]

Seamstress

[vestal swan]

That was a different one I thought

[lean temple]

Close enough?

I don't remember it in details but that's the first time we get cloakless

[vestal swan]

I had assumed it was a sprite used for getting into a hot tub or hot springs or something like that and we get like three of them and that sprite isn't used for them

Hornet just gets in with her clothes on

[lean temple]

Sherma does too tbf

He only takes off his hat

[sinful nimbus]

You never know when Kratt is nearby

[vestal swan]

I wonder if you can hit that little bastard with rune rage, all the spells concentrating on his face would be funny

[lean temple]

You can give him the Millibelle treatment

[vestal swan]

You can poke him in the eye but you can't beat the shit out of him

[lean temple]

I never got to do it sadly

[lean temple]

Yeah he only gets a death threat and volley balled around

[vestal swan]

Wdym? Did you leave him behind or something

He still tried to be a creeper even in fleetopia iirc I had hit him before and he still tried to do it and then I got a line about him never charging me money again

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet supports the death penalty confirmed?

Makes you wonder what Weaver Queen Pharloom will be like

[lean temple]

I didn't trigger the thing where I actually hit him when he creeps

[vestal swan]

I mean can't you just go in there and hit him?

[lean temple]

So she should just let someone sexually assault her?

[vestal swan]

Oh wait does it get removed when the games get set up

[sinful nimbus]

#sk-lore is truly incredible

[lean temple]

I never hit him properly when he creeped. After fleatopia I couldn't spa anymore

I always ended up hitting the wall of the spa instead of him

[sacred heath]

bait remains believable

[midnight zinc]

Bait will remain believable until moral improves

[light mauve]

I mean, she literally entered a grieving bug’s mind after promising to leave him alone, killed him there for no reason and then ripped out his heart just to put it on a wall

[sinful nimbus]

Homo[honic

That brings back Verdania plantlife and gives GP closure so its cool though

[midnight zinc]

Everything else she did was wrong but she didn’t kill him for no reason, he attacked her. She showed no signs of wanting to kill him prior to him attacking her. Now that’s not to say him attacking her wasn’t justified, but regardless.

[light mauve]

She entered his mind, after promising to leave him alone and let him mourn his partner, then started murdering every bug in verdania and she still ripped his heart out

For no reason

[midnight zinc]

I just said it was justified to attack her, but she didn’t intend to attack or harm him

Prior to him attacking her that is

I was wondering about that actually

I suppose her not leaving a cocoon is meant to signify that she doesn’t die

[light mauve]

She could just leave HIS mind. If she had no intention of harm then she wouldn’t go around murdering innocent bugs

[steep talon]

it is a bit weird cause i dont think her dying in that mempry can be canon. GP aknowledges that she invaded her dream, but irl he remains unaware. a bit weird

[vestal swan]

Oh no I see the word justified in the lore channel what are we talking about now

Oh green prince yeah, that entire interaction is stupid

[sinful nimbus]

I mean Hornet is a terrible person but this is just kinda meh

It doesn't really come off as that bad

[midnight zinc]

Yeah I felt the same way

[light mauve]

Type of person to break the statuette

For 60 shards

[steep talon]

no? thats your decision as a player

i kept mine

[heavy gyro]

It's funny how hornet can help build the bridge and immediately break it after

[edgy nebula]

isnt star one of the first people who pointed out hornet being actually rude as hell

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner 😔

[shrewd geyser]

Lore question, is it the consensus the the putrified ducts pinstress originally set up bilewater with traps and trained the stilkin?

[sacred heath]

not sure if you’re using her as an example or comparing yourself to her

[sinful nimbus]

The latter

[steep talon]

no

[sinful nimbus]

I wasn't the first person to note she was actually evil though

[shrewd geyser]

how come

[sinful nimbus]

There isn't a very robust connection between the Pinstresses and Stilkin

[shrewd geyser]

The stilkin resemble the pinstresses a lot more than they do groal id argue

[steep talon]

Hornet says floating stilkin sets up traps. Stilkins dont use pins, so probably werent trained

[shrewd geyser]

Especially the one in the ducts

[sweet shale]

why is she actually evil?

[sinful nimbus]

She says she doesn't feel bad for the child slaves in the slab and later says she hopes the entire species stops breeding

[sweet shale]

ok makes sense

[edgy nebula]

she also kills the 4th heart for no reason canonically

[midnight zinc]

Lowkey based, flies are disgusting

[pale grove]

hornet morally grey protagonist confirmed

[sinful nimbus]

"grey"

[pale grove]

what did i say wrong?

[sinful nimbus]

She's not in the middle ground she's like overtly a bad person

[pale grove]

she was protecting hollownest for years

[midnight zinc]

I don’t really like perspectives like this, because there’s plenty of things that aren’t required of you to do that are player choices. In the first game no one says the knight is a terrible person because it kills the nailsmith in some play throughs, even though you have the option to not do that. You have the option to not murder the green prince.

[sinful nimbus]

That was good yes

But Hornet in Silksong renounces that for... some reason?

[stray fog]

Hornet's grumpy old boomer arc

[limpid summit]

TK isn’t a terrible person for killing Nailsmith

Canonically you could make the justification that it wants to satisfy his last wish

[sinful nimbus]

They really had Hornet have an entire character arc that ended in her disliking her actions in Hallownest off screen

Dragon Prince type writing

[limpid summit]

The worst thing TK does is killing Maggots and even then idk you could be like it thought they might attack

[steep talon]

i mean is there a point anymore? infection is done, travelers cant spread it to other kingdoms or whatever. seems like good time to go on vacation

[limpid summit]

But then she goes back on all that with her WL dialogue

I understand your wish

[sinful nimbus]

Its not the fact that she stopped when there was no reason to

Its that she calls standing guard over a kingdoms corpse "foolish" even though it was not

[steep talon]

when does she say that?

[sinful nimbus]

To Second Sentinel

[steep talon]

ight ill go check

[sinful nimbus]

The name Second Sentinel itself appears to be a mirror to Hornet's time as sentinel as well

Which feels like it could've been awesome. Untapped potential 😔

[steep talon]

During your slumber, the Citadel has fallen and its voices lay silent. This place is dead, or very nearly. Some would argue that standing guard over a kingdom's corpse is a foolish task, empty of meaning. I wonder then, will you still hold true to your charge?

some would argue its foolish, would you still do it?

sentinel: yes

Hornet in her head: waow based

[cloud plover]

Given the fact Luddite is only mentioned a few times, I wanna drop my personal revelation I got from playing through the game

The game seems to directly reference worker revolutions and the luddite era. They opposed automation, and worked in textiles. Music was a major cultural driver during the era and efforts made to automate clothing-production, song, etc. were all major taboos but pushed on by the profit motive.

The kingdom represents decaying monarchy, with a mix of automatons and by-class laborers. Religious symbolism is also extremely heavy as automation is seen as an afront to God and separates Puritan work ethic.

Also some Greek Philosopher quote about saying man will be free when music and labor are automated

Which we can tell in the modern day was wishful thinking, when you automate you just make it more difficult for people to find meaning and things they are good at that a machine can't do

it only adds to inequality and competition it doesn't improve conditions

[steep talon]

oh cool

[cloud plover]

The collapse of their society is tied to their distrust in religion and their ruling deity/state, the automatons ran independently despite the collapsing kingdom but the citizens and working class were already displaced

and it just rotted internally

[steep talon]

im pretty bad at themes, but im not sure game is strictly anti automation.

[cloud plover]

but ppl who fell out of the faith had kids, still practiced, tradition lived, and eventually they commuted back to waht was left behind

It's not anti-anything, it's a historical critique on social bonds and drivers

there's like 3 core things that motivate people:

Authority, Faith, Progress

[steep talon]

hmmm, okay i getcha

[cloud plover]

Tech falls in progress, Faith is anything from cults, faith to a company to look out for you, or an actual religion

and authority can be small scale like local police officers who had a good impression on you growing up, or politicians

There's also personal drivers like hobbies and friendships but those are more organic and aren't society scale

[steep talon]

i mean authority can come from friendships too, if you like stretch it i guess. though i guess what im actually trying to say is the organic driver distinction seems kinda silly

[cloud plover]

I guess what I mean is there's ordered motivation, and disordered motivation.

Disordered isn't managed by an org

Each of your friends are by proxy motivated by orgs

[steep talon]

ok, that one is more clear

so uh society bad????

[cloud plover]

society isn't bad or good

it just is, ppl can be bad, can be good

[steep talon]

ah, should have used /j

[light mauve]

The knight is saint compared to hornet

[cloud plover]

I'm curious what the Knight was thinking, being a silent protag and all

we know that Hornet thinks the missionaries and disciples are a lost cause (except for Sherma)

she changes her opinions later on but she very clearly is only going on this journey for the love of the game and to get revenge

[limpid summit]

True..

[honest sun]

Why Gms's body is black in Lost lace fight but white in gms fight? is she getting consumed by the void or smth

[ocean crown]

Bro I love when she saves the alave guy and was like “it was a coincidence goodbye” like damn

[cloud plover]

she's a stone cold killer, no distractions

[quick geyser]

Not a long time ago,
I post the parallel between Lace and THK, saying she was the hollow knight of silksong blah blah, you can go read it.
So what does this mean? If you are like me, and you agree non of the vessel are truly hollow, and the idea of a “Hollow Knight” is impossible, then I got some interesting stuff here.
The first game was named after a futile idea and a desperated attempt of the pale king to save his kingdom.
Hollow knight Silksong is named after a false idea of a child, GMS was desperate for a child after the betrayal of the weaver, so she made Lace and Phantom to be her eternally devoted children. But perhaps GMS had no idea about the responsibility of a mother considering how Lace and Phantom turned out to be.

Amazing writing from team cherry

[cloud plover]

In the end it's always just older generations with untold levels of knowledge and responsibility, trying to pass the burden of responsibility for mistakes they can't solve onto their kids

just like real life!

[stray fog]

Yes

[quick geyser]

I think the relationship between GMS and the weavers is very intriguing. Did the weaver really just abandoned GMS just because they found out she isn’t really their mother? Or is there something more complicated than that

[willow epoch]

pale glaze? you mean the pale king apologists lately

[ocean crown]

And she is using all her milk I mean silk to make a cocoon for lace

[steep talon]

Cocoon for Lace?

[ocean crown]

Like she made a giant cocoon in the void

[steep talon]

oooh yeah

[ocean crown]

To protect lace

[steep talon]

yeah got confused there for a second

[cobalt coyote]

Didnt do it too well ig

[ocean crown]

It’s the void what else could she possibly do

[cobalt coyote]

Put lace inside of a smaller ball of silk or sum

[ocean crown]

Would be weaker and she would wanna know that she is safe

And also if she died the silk would too

[cobalt coyote]

Unless she alr used all the silk make a smaller ball inside of her big ball

[steep talon]

ballception?

[ocean crown]

Also it wouldn’t matter it’s the void lmao

The void that hates pale shit

[cobalt coyote]

Drink the void fluid with a straw

[steep talon]

thats what gloomsacks did!!! surprisingly it worked

[frosty gate]

Void is stored inside the Balls

[ocean crown]

And then they sucked hornet

😔

[sage otter]

I think the motivations of the weavers are left vague on purpose, but I think that what happened was that the Weavers, while propped up as high status in Pharloom as daughters of GMS, were still under GMS's thumb. The fact that GMS was their mother was just something that made it more bearable by disguising the master/servant relationship as a mother/daughter one.

The fact that first sinner was imprisoned and that texts mention escaping her sight and things like that show that the "not actually our mother" is not the reason they rebelled, but just what triggered things. I don't know if I'm clear. Like, the revelation was a spark, the domination of GMS over the weavers was the powder keg.
It's how I see it at least

[fading shard]

hey

[frosty gate]

I think it makes sense to view that way, but I still find it absolutely hilarious that they discovered the truth and said "FS should suffer"

[heavy tusk]

why are the weavers in the abyss

[frosty gate]

Probably curiosity, maybe ways to get rid of GMS

[edgy nebula]

that or the weaver was exiled

[quiet mango]

ok so... this is lace right ? but whos inside this ? her mother ? what lore is behind this ? (Exhaust Organ area btw)

[edgy nebula]

phantom

lace is talking to an unconscious(?) phantom here, expressing her feelings

[frosty gate]

You should advance just a little more

[edgy nebula]

oh

[quiet mango]

whos this ? I finished the game

[frosty gate]

Surely you didn't

[quiet mango]

hmm

[frosty gate]

Yeah, just explore the Organ a bit more

[quiet mango]

not 100% but I beat the final one at the citadel im just exploring

[quiet mango]

ah sure

[heavy tusk]

keep exploring exhaust organ

[frosty gate]

Pan, you're scaring me you've been writing for 3 minutes now

[quiet mango]

damn I'm excited now hahaha

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/blackbeard-blackbeard-writing-taking-notes-writing-gif-17583038544116987898

pandemonium

[quiet mango]

OH....

I missed this room

[sage otter]

I was confused by this too (still mostly am), but I think what happened is that:

• FS was imprisoned pretty fast after she told the thing, when not all weavers were into the idea of rebelling yet. She had planted the seed but most weavers were still loyal, at least in the open
• During the height of the rebellion, the weavers had other things to do than go free her, and number 3,
• I think that FS is basically on the brink of death when we open the cell up, and we fight her in the same sort of space that we go to when binding Widow. (if you die against her you wake up outside the cell and have to retry the binding to trigger the fight again), and she may have been in that state even before the weavers leftt

So once she was in there the weavers considered her dead

[frosty gate]

I believe that all Weavers in the Spires aren't dead, they're just encased in metal

So technically dead, but not functionally

[edgy nebula]

always bet on first sinner atla

[frosty gate]

Hence why we get the Whispers and why they speak to Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

A real man never speaks ill of First Sinner = Atla and Old Penitent = Romino

[sage otter]

I suppose they're alive enough to say their little "our kingdom's future" stuff and whisper, but by HK standard you can do that even when dead

[frosty gate]

You say it cus of the Dreamers?

[quiet mango]

is this like lace's sister or gf ??

[frosty gate]

Keep using needolin in the same place

||(She calles her Sister)||

[frosty gate]

I feel like none of the explanations fit that much or it seems silly

[silk dirge]

speaking of this theory whats up with the needolin dialog of the weaver effigy penitent

[silk dirge]

he says something about how he failed

[frosty gate]

I meant the tank of the first image you sent

[sage otter]

Well, there's memories everywhere that you can listen to. Hornet does have to reveal them with the needolin, but to me it's enough of an example that the whispers don't convince me that they're not dead

[simple hedge]

This is possible, it does look like a conductor

[quiet mango]

hahhaa yeah sorry I was stupid

[sinful nimbus]

This is agreeable however the fact that its only a helmet leaves the possibility that Romino lost his helmet here and got thrown into jail later

[simple hedge]

Ok 100% a conductor

[sinful nimbus]

Or they are just two different conductors

[quiet mango]

I listed all of her needolin thoughts she only says free me and stuff she is like held back or something

[silk dirge]

this seems like someone who was dedicated to atla and failed them somehow?

[edgy nebula]

she has a dialogue saying "Why us, sister?"

[silk dirge]

that would match with first sinner

[sage otter]

I agree! Those are just the best I got 😅

[sinful nimbus]

I think they're talking about the Citadel

They are looking directly at it and asking for forgiveness for their silence

[silk dirge]

this is the guy whos holding the atla effigy

[frosty gate]

Like the best explanation is "She was imprisoned by the Weavers because the Weavers had high ego and wanted to be divine so bad so they just did it" but it seems so silly that the Weavers did all that when she was right and then went

[silk dirge]

so how does this all fit together

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/kept-seeing-yume-gifs-in-non-yume-tags-decided-would-remake-them-instead-of-being-bothered-w-something-i-like-for-funsies-continued-to-make-more-once-i-got-a-reaction-because-it-was-funny-appeared-unserious-gif-6887265553503795822

[silk dirge]

does he regret holding the atla effigy

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not really sure if they know First Sinner is Atla

[silk dirge]

that would certainly make sense if atla is first sinner

[sinful nimbus]

That's also possible

[edgy nebula]

problem is atla made weavenest atla, which many weavers frequented and was post-realization

[sage otter]

What is suggesting Atla is First sinner?

[frosty gate]

I think a Weaver Effigy found in The Slab

[humble peak]

What tells us Atla made the Weavenest and it wasn't just dedicated to her?

[frosty gate]

So by proximity, it'd make sense it was atla

[humble peak]

A few loose connections, but far from enough to say with any certainty

[craggy bison]

Could nyleth be a higher being

[edgy nebula]

no

[humble peak]

Not much to support that

[craggy bison]

Why

[silk dirge]

anyways speaking of weavenests does anyone have any idea what void experiments absolom was doing and how the farsight relates to them

[sinful nimbus]

Effigy below First Sinner's arena

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."
First Sinner entry
Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time

FS seems to be imprisoned for telling people about the Weavers true history and therefore opposing the Citadel's religious propaganda saying the weavers were divine, which fits with Atla being a historian sort. They're also both associated with runes

[edgy nebula]

she didnt dream shellwood into existence

[craggy bison]

That's what i also said to the person trying to argue that nyleth is a higher being lmao

[silk dirge]

absolom 100% was trying to use void to get rid of gms but she certainly didnt succeed

[humble peak]

How is Atla associated with runes more than any other Weaver?

[edgy nebula]

couldve been exiled

absalom in the bible was exiled after murdering his brother

[silk dirge]

that could be an interesting reference

[humble peak]

Intertextual references ⁉️

[silk dirge]

the problem with farsight is its got lore but its also a meta ability

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenest Atla was developing runes to seal GMS, however this is more supplemental evidence to go along with the previous connections, its not the main course

[silk dirge]

completion percentage is not canon

[dense willow]

Hey, so I have a question
I may be wrong, but I think that the void itself is just a force of nature that corrupts gms's silk, but it is her struggling that leads to the destruction of pharloom. If so, why is it that lost lace appears to be being controlled by the void? It can't be gms controlling her, she helps hornet save her

[humble peak]

I don't think there's too much to the Farsight
It's there so you can see your percentage. They just flavoured it as some nifty Weaver thing.

[silk dirge]

i feel like its pretty important

they gave it a cutscene

atleast im curious what the device does

[sinful nimbus]

Everything has a cutscene \🥀

[edgy nebula]

the void corrupts the silk that gms has already put out into pharloom, it corrupts lace aswell cause shes made of silk

[silk dirge]

i just want to figure out what void experiments absolom was doing

[sinful nimbus]

Farsight kinda recontextualizes World Sense as a somewhat common soul spell

Don't think it has too much to do with Absolom specifically

[silk dirge]

i wouldnt be surprised if world sense was also a product of weavers

[dense willow]

On a similar note, how does it corrupt garmond? He appears to be free of the silks control in acts 1 and 2

[sinful nimbus]

Don't really know why that would be the case

[olive stag]

it's really bizarre to me how absolom has no lore tablets

[limpid summit]

Just a physical thing he’s tired out by constant fighting

[silk dirge]

i mean they were involved with pk so maybe they were maybe pk did it idk

[dense willow]

The seals on the black egg are made of silk and it functions similarly to farsight ig

[frank dove]

Why would he believe it was for a holy purpose then

If he knew citadel was a tool to put gms to sleep as a conductor

[limpid summit]

They didn’t

The high ranking Vaultkeepers didn’t know and they were probably on the same page

Weavers say these simple bugs shall bear the burden full as if they don’t know what they’re getting into

[silk dirge]

romino did

[limpid summit]

He found out

Just like the dead vaultkeeper

[silk dirge]

it is my belief no conductor ever went to the cradle

considering the threefold song requires more than they have

[quiet mango]

so what I understand she says "Forgotten, Disgarded" I guess, lace forgot about her and left her, and her "free me" suggests she is like... suicidal

[silk dirge]

hence my theory threefold melody was always intended for a weaver descendant like hornet to come and reclaim pharloom

[spark valve]

Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.

[fading shard]

what did I miss

[silk dirge]

i wonder if the weavers wanted the weaver queen ending

is that what they wanted to eventually happen

[limpid summit]

Cook

[silk dirge]

it would surprise me tho considering they probably wouldnt know about being able to change crests

[olive stag]

who says this?

[limpid summit]

I’m not sure what they wanted

[spark valve]

mask maker

[limpid summit]

I don’t think they wanted another deity that would ensnare the land

[silk dirge]

im kinda surprised that dialog sounded a lot like caretaker lol

[limpid summit]

I think they in essence wanted what the snail shamans did to GMS but couldn’t really visualize teleporting her into the void

[olive stag]

no, they probably just wanted a weaver to rule the land

they're weavers too, after all

[silk dirge]

i was thinking yesterday weavers wanted to enact snared silk and absolom fits into that

[frosty gate]

Never went, but the Conductors knew

[silk dirge]

idk about that

i feel like if conductors knew where the silk is coming from they wouldnt have gone for whiteward operations

[humble peak]

It's a surveillance device no? It lets you see "the state of the world" or whatever
Ig if we want more lore on it we could ask why the weavers would want such a thing. Presumably the ones in the Abyss would have had a harder time knowing what was happening outside up above, so there's something?

[silk dirge]

yeah probably that

[frosty gate]

Conductor Ballador: "Is our state so bare, pilgrim?... "By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree. But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown. Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."

[frosty gate]

Why not?

[silk dirge]

i mean it seems like this is something they found out after the haunting began

[frosty gate]

"Raised our voices to cry otherwise" sounds like the always knew what their purpose was

[silk dirge]

i mean id be worried about gms haunting conductors if i was in that position like theres no way i would think implanting the silk of a hb is a good idea

[frosty gate]

I don't think they knew she could do that, or at the very least, they trusted nothing like the Haunting would've happened

[sage otter]

They really wanted immortality, too

[silk dirge]

maybe

i guess conductors were just stupid

[viscid ridge]

Some dlc we haven't considered is Forgedaugter's forgehome. Seems like its somewhere in Pharloom, but just hasn't been shown yet.

[sinful nimbus]

That's what I'm saying

[humble peak]

I don't think so at all. He's saying that retrospectively, I think.

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe after I melt him in the Forgehome's furnace

[sage otter]

What I want to see is some other caged Weaver descendant getting carried to Pharloom

[silk dirge]

yeah

[viscid ridge]

I want to meet that living weaver we saw in Weavers den.

[silk dirge]

i mean the envoys would just drop dead probably

as soon as gms gets eaten by the void those envoys are gone

[sage otter]

Well if it happens somewhere before act 3 there's no problem

[viscid ridge]

But tbf i dont think she is controlling them, they seem to do it out of their own free will

[humble peak]

Directly contradicted by textual evidence

Read their journal entry

[viscid ridge]

Cause her influence seems to only stretch over pharloom

[silk dirge]

"Bugs like these crossed the caves to bring me to Pharloom. I cut down many before my capture. Then I had thought them minded and cunning. Now I see the singular will that haunts them all."

it seems like she can haunt people in pharloom and then keep controlling them

[viscid ridge]

Maybe because they had silk in their shells she can control them from such a wide distance

[silk dirge]

yeah

[frosty gate]

I mean it could be the case

[sage otter]

Btw why does GMS want all the weaver descendants? Just for revenge? or for silk reasons? I can't really tell

[frosty gate]

I think GMS doesn't need to be actively control them for them to obey her

[frosty gate]

I'd say all of the above

[viscid ridge]

From how i understand it, she just wants to gain power. She seems to bind their crests or strength, just like how hornet does. So i assume its either she wants back the power she gave to the weavers, or she wants to grow her own strength as revenge

[humble peak]

GMS is really weird honestly
Like it seems like the whole issue is she's coming close to waking up and that'd be really bad
But she doesn't seem to have any issue commanding things from her nap.
And ofc when we show up to throw hands she has no issue throwing them back right then
So like is she just, doing the equivalent of when you wake up but keep spending time on your phone before getting up for breakfast and stuff or..?

[silk dirge]

relatable

[frosty gate]

Maybe she was just reserving her strength to fight Hornet

[viscid ridge]

I honestly don't think she even did most of the stuff she does on purpose. It seems like she subconsciously manifested most things. Like she felt betrayed her daughters betrayed her, so she subconsciously started controlling everyone so they dont betray her, or she thinks the weavers are impure, so she creates 2 pure daughters. I honestly think she doesn't have as much control over everything than she seems

[humble peak]

Hmm, maybe

[viscid ridge]

Cause there are also a lot of dialogue were they suggest that GMS is closer to a mindless beast, just wanting to consume all the weavers, than she does to a ruler of a society

So thats weird

[humble peak]

I do wonder, who was giving the orders to hunt down the weaverspawn?
It's not like GMS could write those down and send them out and stuff

And by the time we reach the Citadel, all former sense of order and hierarchy has collapsed

[viscid ridge]

I personally think that the Conductors sent them out, in an attempt to give her more power or something, or maybe it was subconsciously implanted into their minds that they had to go get them by GMS haunting them

[sage otter]

It's weird because if the problem was that the citadel kept her asleep, she could just have some combination Lace, Phantom, Widow, and the legion of haunted bugs make it stop working

[humble peak]

Presumably there was a point where things were still functioning but GMS had notable influence over it, ig
But like we don't see any instances of bugs being "only a little Haunted"

[sudden ginkgo]

It takes time to go from pharloom to hallownest and back

[humble peak]

true

[frosty gate]

Ballador doesn't seem to take any part on what's going on

[humble peak]

Ballador is the Conductor we meet, right?

[frosty gate]

Yes

[viscid ridge]

To be fair he doesn't talk alot about what the Conductors did, only that it took a heavy toll on him. So maybe he feels remorse for the death of countless weaver spawn, or its refering to whatever the heck is wrong with their bodies

[fair tusk]

weaver song says "left by the weavers who returned to their old home", this means they escaped to hallownest, came back to pharloom and sealed gms rigth?

[limpid summit]

Eh

Probably not

The weavers who left Pharloom for Hallownest likely returned during the Haunting

[frosty gate]

I think he is more remorseful of what the Conductors did to the Citadel, its people, and the lands of Pharloom

[limpid summit]

We aren’t given a timeline but it would be weird for the entirety of Pharloom’s ancient history to happen right after HK

[frosty gate]

It's definitely not right after, but I don't think it's been too long either.

There's no real way to tell how long its been honestly

[fair tusk]

if we calculate mr mushrooms speed we may know/j

[humble peak]

It's not impossible there was a long time between the end of HK and Hornet being captured

[humble peak]

But it'd still be really really weird lol

[simple hedge]

I feel like a long long time has happened since the end of HK. Hornet has aged since, and has matured, and Pharloom has been having it's stuff happen in the meantime.

Though it is possible that Pharloom's history started before Hallownest fell or somewhere around there, and has been doing it's own thing since

[humble peak]

It's certain Hornet has been around a long time, though it's unclear if the bulk of that time was between Hallownest's fall and the events of HK or the end of HK and beginning of SS
Hell, it's also possible the Dreamer thing in HK worked for a good while before starting to fail. We don't have too much of a timeline on that either.

Hell, I mean, it also seems not impossible that Hallownest fell around the same time as when the Dreamer plan was put into action, shortly after or even shortly before in effect, but the seal didn't start failing until a while later.
Maybe the damage had already been too bad once THK was sealed in the Black Egg, and even with the infection at bay it was already too late for the kingdom.

[teal drift]

Its also possible the common bugs sought weaverspawn to try and restrain gms

[brittle cedar]

Red memory tells us weavers were awaiting their chosen one before Hornet was even born

[humble peak]

With regard to what do you direct that statement?

[humble peak]

re: this

[teal drift]

They realized gms was waking up and said “we need to find the only people who have ever successfully contained this thing”

[frosty gate]

Commong bugs don't know about GMS

[humble peak]

That seems unlikely. I don't think the
yeah

[teal drift]

Ballador knows about her and mentions her

I think high ranking bugs absolutely knew abt gms

[humble peak]

Ballador isn't exactly a "common bug"

Ah ok, but you mean the ruling mortals

[teal drift]

He definitionally is — when i say common bug i mean the common bugs that the weaver effigy states received the citadel.

[humble peak]

That seems plausible, I guess
Though it doesn't seem to check out with what we see implied to be done to those brought in

[elfin shard]

what was the purpose of the diving bell before we use it to get to the abyss

[teal drift]

Idk who was the descendant “staked to service.” I thought it was widow but that doesnt really check out.

[polar latch]

do we think Pharloom Bay was attached to an actual ocean-sized thing or was it more of a saltwater pond? in terms of relative scale

[humble peak]

Absolutely nothing to go on there

[polar latch]

the weavers I imagine, they had to build the nest down there somehow

[humble peak]

mining maybe? good question tbh

it doesn't look like something used by Weavers

[polar latch]

what if someone else built it for shits and giggles and the weavers decided to capitalize smh

[elfin shard]

oh yeah it is lowkey crazy that the weavers knew about void and the abyss before even getting to hallownest

[humble peak]

Not necessarily the same weavers

[elfin shard]

i'd imagine they would share the information though

[polar latch]

it was only a matter of time until the weavers made their own hollow knight.... (Joke)

[elfin shard]

they kinda tried with eva

[frosty gate]

There doesn't seem any other way down

[humble peak]

could have already been separated by the time

[polar latch]

oh yeah how many weavers do we think there were? Like general number I mean, cuz it's kinda confusing to me, it seems like there weren't a Lot

[elfin shard]

i'd imagine a few hundred at most

[humble peak]

No I think there were plenty

[teal drift]

At least as many as there are weavernests

[humble peak]

yeah in the hundreds

ig that might not be "plenty"

[polar latch]

I guess they were basically demigods and had either extended or infinite lifespans, so no need for a "breeding" population

[frosty gate]

Plenty of them, but we know mostly of the first I think

[polar latch]

the Bell home should be named to Weavenest Hornet smh

[teal drift]

There also seem to be a few generations of weavers?

[brittle cedar]

Maybe miners looking for flintstone found void, noped out and never used the bell again.

[humble peak]

we don't necessarily see everything
and an old way could have collapsed

[frosty gate]

That's also true

[elfin shard]

yeah since they could generate silk and we know silk can be used to extend lifespan they could probably live extremely long lives

[polar latch]

imagine entering a Weavenest Herrah actually

though I guess that might have been the one in deepnest

[elfin shard]

also its implied that herrah's face as we see it in hollow knight isn't her actual face right (or mask i guess)

[humble peak]

Widow is a 1st Generation Weaver and she's still kicking when we show up
Though not once we leave hehe

[teal drift]

I think herrah left too early on to get she own weavenest rip queen

[frosty gate]

Nah, I don't think Herrah stayed, she left pretty early i'd bet

[humble peak]

yeah
it's a mask

[elfin shard]

yeah its covering her actual mask

[teal drift]

Widow is a strange one. Idk who even staked her up.

[polar latch]

it's so sad that hornet can never bind Herrah, her own mother is the only weaver she's truly incapable of keeping with her

[polar latch]

my money is on city of steel

[frosty gate]

Theories say the Weavers, but I still find it unlikely

[elfin shard]

some say it was gms for rebelling against her, and some say its the weavers for staying loyal

[humble peak]

I think the way she appears in the red memory implies Hornet saw her as a baby with her true face but she was too young to remember

[elfin shard]

yeah it looks like she can only really remember herrah by her dreamer mask

[polar latch]

I wonder why only FS has the pharlid head, and all the other weavers have sphere heads...

and then there's herrah

[humble peak]

birth defect
that's how she found out

/hj

[polar latch]

Oh that could go so hard actually

[elfin shard]

well maybe cus shes first gen

[humble peak]

All Weavers we see are first gen

[polar latch]

weaver? I hardly know 'er!

[elfin shard]

she was directly transformed from a pharlid to a weaver so maybe she kept those pharlid traits. even widow might have had those traits but we dont really get to see cus her mask is taken off

[humble peak]

It seems the only direct descendants of the weavers were mixed, only weaver in part

like Hornet

[frosty gate]

I don't think FS was born like that honestly

[polar latch]

I still really like the idea that the Hunter is like 1/4th weaver

[humble peak]

Based on what?

[polar latch]

hype moments and aura

[elfin shard]

the hunter is the same species as the bug in sinners road right

[vestal swan]

??

[humble peak]

you're thinking the Huntress
They were talking about the guy from the first game

[elfin shard]

well she was born a pharlid and then "ascended" into being a weaver

[humble peak]

they all were

[elfin shard]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah

that could be interesting for sure

[humble peak]

Eh
Mostly baseless

[frosty gate]

With the open head

[vestal swan]

It seems they don't have males so yeah

[vestal swan]

We see them get formed that way though

[elfin shard]

yeah but all pharlids were born with that open head

we see pharlids in the game and they all have that right?

[humble peak]

maybe the reason the weavers have issues reproducing is they didn't realize you need a dude for that

[elfin shard]

yeah unless they have special weaver powers that let them reproduce asexually AND sexually

[frosty gate]

I thought that was just to show us the transformation because it was cool

[vestal swan]

The "lie" just got crazy

[polar latch]

Fr tho, he has: six eyes, mostly black body, potentially spherical head (it's a stretch), and he's a Hunter, which is what Hornet is also often referred to as

ugh why do my messages send so late

[vestal swan]

I mean it is to show us the transformation but it shows that her form never completed a spherical head

[polar latch]

Hornet seeing a Pharlid must be like humans seeing a chimpanzee (or more Accurately, an early hominid relative lol)

[humble peak]

don't
most bugs have a mostly black body?

[humble peak]

fr, she even comments on that

[polar latch]

let me cope

[elfin shard]

yeah we just usually dont see it cus they wear clothes

[vestal swan]

Mostly yeah

[polar latch]

I guess I should have clarified that he's very. Spindly.

[vestal swan]

Pilgrims and City citizens from the first game are the outliers in that they are pretty much the main characters that actually wear clothes

[polar latch]

idk I really like the idea that he's a huntsman spider

[elfin shard]

but the skinny and jaggedly designed limbs could point to the hunter being part weaver

but then i also feel like there would've been a commandment trying to get him too

[vestal swan]

The hunter is not a weaver

[humble peak]

I think it's baseless
At most he might be part spider, mundane
But even that is a stretch

[polar latch]

Hunter defo isn't a weaver but he could be either part weaver or a spider of another kind

just doesn't use silk (cuz he's too based)

[vestal swan]

No silk no recognition of weavers not from deepnest hunted his own siblings probably entirely foreign etc

[elfin shard]

there is enough evidence against it to make it questionable even if there are some things that correlate like his anatomy and stuff

[polar latch]

tbh... What if he's a Beast, like from deepnest?

[vestal swan]

Nothing about him really screams spider, the stretch is being made because people thought he looks like a weaver but when he can't be a weaver he now has to be a different spider? The pun not intended, thread connecting these two things does not exist

[elfin shard]

even Herrah is a beast

[polar latch]

yeah but Herrah is weird

[elfin shard]

actually even GMS is considered a beast isnt she?

like a higher being but also a beast

[polar latch]

oh yeah true

[humble peak]

Once you get to "he might be a regular spider" there's pretty much no connection you're even making, it's just speculation on the inconsequential

[polar latch]

yeah I'm just headcanoning here

[vestal swan]

GMS is called a higher being, I don't remember the word beast used? Maybe by the shamans? they just seem to be anti-god though

[humble peak]

Pharloom's Folly

"A beast's nature bare to all"

[elfin shard]

would radience be considered a beast?

[vestal swan]

Is that the poem by Romio?

[elfin shard]

wait are we allowed to talk hk lore here

[vestal swan]

Radiance doesn't even really have a body

[polar latch]

i think the Hunter could be lore important tho, considering the hunters mark is the same, or very similar, as the thing Nuu gives you. Maybe there's an overarching guild of hunters?

[humble peak]

the one at the start of the game

[vestal swan]

Yeah you can talk about the first game here

[dire sinew]

she's considered to be nature

[humble peak]

I don't think "beast" is a very precise term

[elfin shard]

i forgot that the radience didn't really physically exist

[polar latch]

yeah I might just be spitting shit out me mouth

i do like the idea of a hunters guild of some kind tho...

[vestal swan]

I think your monster Hunter is bleeding out
But maybe it's a universal symbol or widely accepted like mark thats recognized

[polar latch]

my monster hunter autism leaks out of every orifice at every possible second yeah

[dire sinew]

is the message of the snare ending that while anarchy sounds appealing it will lead to a lot of people killed or is it saying that anarchy is very hard to do correctly because people can infere

[elfin shard]

maybe but as far as far as hallownest is concerned none of its citizens were meant to know that any civilization outside of the kingdom even existed

[polar latch]

Tbh a "hunters haven" or smth could be neat, bet hornet would love that

do we even know where The Hunter is from?

[humble peak]

infere?

[elfin shard]

does that mean the hunter is from outside and came to hallownest specifically to hunt?

[vestal swan]

No?

[dire sinew]

oops i mean interfere

[vestal swan]

It seems like he is foreign yes

[polar latch]

I think he's too busy aura farming to talk about it

that was crazy to watch in real time

I'm honored ..

[vestal swan]

What

[polar latch]

the reactions that got immediately removed

[elfin shard]

oh lmao

[humble peak]

I think the message of the snare ending is "whoops the god we tried to kill is still kicking and she's bringing the whole world down with her"

[polar latch]

it's just kinda silly I think

[humble peak]

who is doing that lmao

[polar latch]

i like that it's getting deleted so fast that it can't even spell the whole word

[humble peak]

no I'm seeing the whole word

[vestal swan]

They're probably deleting it themself I can't tell who it is

[polar latch]

i am sometimes but one of my messages just got a G

[dire sinew]

you really mean to tell me "it's just a story man it's not that deep or trying to say much of anything"

[dire sinew]

check audit logs mr moderator

[polar latch]

I'm gonna go but I leave you all with this: Moss Mother is a wasp of some kind. That's all!

[vestal swan]

Mod logs for emote reactions don't exist

[humble peak]

I nearly died to the double moss mother in steel soul the other day
very funny

[spark valve]

it's almost like act 3 is disjointed and not that narratively interesting

[dire sinew]

my question wasnt about act 3 because i havent gotten to the end of act 3 it's about what the snare ending means

well i guess it is about act 3 but like 🤷‍♂️

[humble peak]

the snare ending is an intermediate ending
there's no message because the story isn't over yet

[elfin shard]

yeah there really isnt a message cus the game hasn't concluded

[humble peak]

literally a fake ending because it hasn't ended yet lmao

[spark valve]

it's an attempt at hornet taking down gms without taking her place and continuing the cycle of oppression that itself is fine it just doesn't really build into anything next

it's mostly a rejection of weaver queen instead of something that has its own independent message

[humble peak]

the message is "lace is a bitch"

[dire sinew]

well i'm thinking that it's a commentary on the idea that "if we can't make a good government, get rid of the government". that's kinda what they're saying, no?

[humble peak]

Alternate ending where Hornet binds GMS just a little bit to weaken her some more before springing the trap and now GMS isn't able to fight back as much and just gets slurped up by the void with no issue

[spark valve]

alternate ending where hornet stops being a wuss and just stabs gms to death

[elfin shard]

Alternate ending when hornet just fucking leaves

[dire sinew]

hornet is a professional dead horse beater

[brittle cedar]

we all tried it

[humble peak]

I mean, you're free to read it like that if you like
something something media interpretation
but I don't think much is intended from it as a message because it's deliberately inconclusive. It's a sequel hook with a sequel included.
The message is "hey you should look at your save file again"

[dire sinew]

that doesn't make it meaningless that just is a design thing

[elfin shard]

I wanted to leave so bad once act 3 started like I alr dealt w the bs void in the first game 🙄

[humble peak]

person who never opened their files after getting Snared Silk and just thinks that's the ending

[lavish tangle]

“Oh no my file got corrupted by void, time to start a new one”

[elfin shard]

Is what happened to pharloom what happened to hallownest in the bad godseeker ending

[silk dirge]

nah

[spark valve]

hallownest is fine in etv

[lavish tangle]

I would say in the god seeker ending only like the one room got affected then the shade lord went down

[silk dirge]

vgfocus just went back to the abyss

[elfin shard]

Even in the no flower ending?

[lavish tangle]

Especially in the no flower ending

[silk dirge]

why would the knight destroy hallownest

[humble peak]

what do void beings even like
do

[elfin shard]

Fair point even tho we do see that the void can have split wills in the act 3 ending

[silk dirge]

i wonder what tk is even doing chilling in the abyss down there

[elfin shard]

Prolly napping

[silk dirge]

probably watching abyssal cinema

[elfin shard]

Like the void was tryna swiss cheese hornet and lace but the knight and the other shades intervened

[lavish tangle]

I think of it more like the knight was not close enough to control it directly, if an ant got close to your foot while you are gaming you wouldn’t notice

[silk dirge]

cousin of absolute cinema

[snow sonnet]

Playing Silksong

[humble peak]

the void does seem a lot more deliberate in Act 3 compared to in HK
Back then it was sort of just mindlessly thrashing, but in SS it looks more actively aggressive and stuff

[elfin shard]

Not really it just lashed at its closest target

[silk dirge]

hornet has soul so it lashed out at her and took down those weavenest platforms with it

[lavish tangle]

In hk the thrashing parts were from a mold, in ss it is just like that

[humble peak]

The only void that really attacked us in that game had will deliberately imprinted on it by some form
Though, ig the black-threaded bugs in SS have the haunting will in them too

[humble peak]

no it's not a mould, it's an "imprint"
it's made in the tendrils' image, not the other way around

[elfin shard]

It's instinctive drive is to latch onto anything with soul and expand itself as much as possible which is why when it comes into possession of the metric fuck ton of power gms has it immediately latched onto it

[humble peak]

yeah that makes sense actually

void is so cool

[lavish tangle]

Huh, I could have sworn it is a mold, I do believe you it makes more sense this way

[vestal swan]

The void isn't really following the haunting it's taking advantage of it, they aren't bringing silk to GMS or anything? Just taking over stuff and attacking everything

[humble peak]

the void is just seeping into the thread. I don't think it's deliberate

I was more thinking about how we see it acting in the final dive and ending cutscenes but remembering the soul thing it does make more sense

[elfin shard]

its not a conscious decision but i think its a primal instinct that allows it to get stronger

[lavish tangle]

The void eats soul, silk is related to soul, the void was eating the silk indirectly

[silk dirge]

yeah

[elfin shard]

like ooga booga i see power i take power

[lavish tangle]

There is also the fact that the tendrils wait for the flower to break before attacking you on the way up, while on the way down it tries to attack regardless

It can learn?

[silk dirge]

void eating soul isnt a new idea

[humble peak]

there is evidence that void has some amount of inherent will to it

which is what people point to when discussing how the vessel plan was flawed from the start

[elfin shard]

we know the void can unite its will at times so maybe it was scattered and mindlessly attackign hornet when she was diving, but once she ascended it had a more focused goal in mind

[humble peak]

idk how much of that i buy entirely

but it is a thing

[silk dirge]

the knight needs to focus to unite the abyss

like its just chilling in the abyss most of the time but it needs to focus to unite void and in silksong attack the void tendrils

[lavish tangle]

The “will of the void” imo is more of a side effect of the vessels being half wyrm, you know, the entity known for giving mindless bugs a mind

[humble peak]

oh that's a really interesting perspective

[vestal swan]

Yeah void can learn, although it's weird to think that parts of the lake were watching and waiting to see what the other parts of the lake would do

[humble peak]

that the void was impacted by PK's beacon

though idk how well it holds up under scrutiny

[lavish tangle]

I meant more so the vessels are

[elfin shard]

hold on ur cooking

[snow sonnet]

The knight attacking the void tendrils just feels like a "watch yo tone" but I could be reaching

[elfin shard]

but i think there is evdience of the will being united actually

[silk dirge]

it probably was

[vestal swan]

PK didnt grant wills and turn beasts into people, beast like creatures with low intellect still existed

[lavish tangle]

The fact that the knight had to come and smack the tendrils tells us that even though it united the will of the void the void didn’t

[elfin shard]

like there is evidence of the void being united before the vessels

[silk dirge]

it was probably doing a void version of hornet slapping nuu

[lavish tangle]

So the will of the void is really the will of the vessels

[vestal swan]

The exact opposite is stated three times

[elfin shard]

oh u right

i was confused with the anceint civiliation i mistook the "void given form" artwork for the void being united

[lavish tangle]

What I am trying to get at is the void is not one big thing, it is many small things

[silk dirge]

i wonder how possible it is for another void heart to exist

[twin dragon]

I mean there's the liquid and the dart thingies

[humble peak]

when?

[twin dragon]

Dart thingies are void given form though

[vestal swan]

I think of another void heart existing is extremely unlikely, it wouldn't necessarily need to be created the same way but I just think for charm BS to create the same thing twice would still be extremely strange

[lavish tangle]

And they both seem to act independently, and the flower only affects the dart things

[silk dirge]

if the hk world is an infinite flat plane with kingdoms randomly spawning at x distances what is the chance one of those kingdoms will recreate the conditions for void heart

[elfin shard]

i think a godlike being with void within it is a very unique scenario but it might be reproducible

[humble peak]

this is just the real life multiverse theory

[twin dragon]

The void in general is hella weird

[humble peak]

in an infinite world with infinite time the same situation will be replicated infinite times

[twin dragon]

Like the liquid is apparently harmless but not the tendrils?

[lavish tangle]

The exact void heart? 0%, something like the void heart? Not uncommon

[vestal swan]

Bardoon: "such power and unity never seen before"or something
Void idol text: "they devoted themselves to no singular being or God, just the darkness itself" referring to what the ancient civilization worshiped
And I don't remember the third one

[humble peak]

yeah the dive scenes are really weird in that the tendrils are depicted as distinct pieces from the greater lake, while until now they've just been the lake itself lashing out

[twin dragon]

We havent seen the knight dive into the void though

[humble peak]

yeah

[vestal swan]

Well we do have an example of pure liquid void without a form, it pours out of soupboy's hands

[foggy fractal]

shade beast "Void, power, without unity" ?

[vestal swan]

I always forget Soupboy has dialogue

[twin dragon]

"soupboy"???

[vestal swan]

The guy holding a bowl of overflowing void

[silk dirge]

fun fact this guy is called a higher being in the game files it probably doesnt mean shit but it's funny

[lavish tangle]

Outside hallownest the void seems to be a bunch of small things instead of one, if “the will of the void” exists it has to be a hallownest special

[elfin shard]

the exact charm is made thorugh the knights unique circumstance of being a literal god filled with void, forgetting its past and remembering it and coming to terms with the circumstances of its birth

[foggy fractal]

"...Void... Power... Without unity..." before void heart
"...Lord of Shades..." after void heart

[twin dragon]

oh ffs that's one hell of a name

yeah that's just liquid

[vestal swan]

He makes me think of that kid from that really old movie "please can I have some more" so I call him soup boy