sk-lore

[hasty light]

Unn is a higher being who created greenpath and the mosskin but was slowly weakened by the effects of time

[hidden seal]

I remember hearing they just googled "weird bug" to find inspo sometimes lol

[fathom hill]

so if higher beings are gods is god a human

[hasty light]

Would you consider craws to be bugs though?

[fathom hill]

are gods considered bugs in the hk universe by that logic

[hidden seal]

I don't wanna get into a religious debate lol

[molten python]

The Last Stag: "I've heard he was a glorious bug to behold, bright and radiant in visage"

[fathom hill]

or they're just like, ig they're bug looking

[hidden seal]

there we go

[analog tree]

they're still called remains of a bug, so they're bugs as much as haunted bugs i think

given some of them seemingly get revived

[analog tree]

*was talking about dreg husks

[hidden seal]

I think for the dreg husks the living bit is the silk (which isn't a bug) but is using the husks (which are bugs) as a vessel

[molten python]

Haunted bugs are still living bugs, just their minds are being controlled and in the process of being turned into a hivemind.

[hasty light]

In game they’re kinda like a “tangible god”, being basically a bug and a god at the same time ig

[molten python]

Although beings like Lace who are created entirely of Silk are still called bugs.

[fathom hill]

Gods that take form of bug

[molten python]

It's a bit iffy.

[fathom hill]

Since the wyrm did change so it can rule over the common bug

[hidden seal]

I think it's ambiguous for lace because she's been deliberately shaped like a bug, so would look like a bug to anyone unaware of her nature

[fathom hill]

This is why i think bug it's used like person, or man

[molten python]

Thing is humans are a specific biological species.

[fathom hill]

like I'm sure the greek gods were referred to as men even if they're not human

So could be something like that?

[molten python]

I was talking about the Hunter's Journal entry.

[hidden seal]

we as irl humans don't have an easy analog for the word "bug" in hk since we don't know any other "people" species apart from us

[analog tree]

aren't some of them revived corpses? most of the bugs in the citadel seem to be sitting dead motionless on the ground before getting haunted

[hasty light]

I don’t think “bugs” in hk can be directly correlated to humans irl, cuz each bug can be a completely different species or animal, so it’s kinda like completely diverse creatures of similar intelligence that coexist rather than humans of different races or whatever

[fathom hill]

Since we refer to humanity as dignity of human

[analog tree]

this also seems to imply that either haunting gives some immortal strength or it is actually keeping them alive/reviving them

[molten python]

I mean non-sapient species are also bugs, so wild animals would be "bugs" too.

[fathom hill]

we can attribute humanity to non human things

it's just an umbrella term that encapsulates what we define as the human experience/mind

[hasty light]

It’s kinda like if animals in the real world were as intelligent as humans, we wouldn’t call every intelligent being a human

[fathom hill]

i can see how bug can be used as an umbrella term for other non bug stuff that way

[molten python]

bug ≈ sentient being

[hidden seal]

the silk does grant extended life

[fathom hill]

I don't think it's a perfect 1:1 either

[hidden seal]

the conductor we get the melody from is being sustained by it

[analog tree]

muckroaches are bred for food and they still call them bugs iirc, so that'd be like calling a pig or a cow a man

[molten python]

They have turned into basically a zombie, even if they are tired they continue to work.

They don't have individual thought, they can't "decide" to just stop working and rest.

[fathom hill]

Then maybe it's more of a "Alive" category then?

[analog tree]

i do wonder why would they even work though, entire citadel's mostly for sustaining grandma's sleep, so grandma haunts the bugs that are sustaining that citadel and... makes them keep sustaining it?

[hasty light]

Honestly team cherry probably didn’t overthink the term “bug” and just called every shelled invertebrate or larva a bug

[molten python]

Well not plants. Sentient beings specifically.

[analog tree]

iirc some of them also still sing

[hidden seal]

yeah a bug seems to just be anything that's not a root

[analog tree]

i think at the start of choral chambers if you go through the last judge route

[fathom hill]

ah right the white lady ain't referred to as bug ig?

[analog tree]

or just go there to the left part of the chambers

[hidden seal]

we do have sentient plants, so we need to be more specific

[hasty light]

Nor are craws

[hidden seal]

craws are bugs

[hasty light]

Fr?

[analog tree]

"crawbug clearing"

[hidden seal]

yuh theyre not birds

[analog tree]

the name of the quest for gathering their ragpelts

[hidden seal]

yeah theyre literally called crawbugs lfmao

[fathom hill]

are the mushroom guys referred to as bugs?

Not plants obviously but I'm curious

[hidden seal]

little craw has bug body and antennae, and only flies with it's cloak (no visible wings)

[molten python]

The plant distinction is kinda weird since "Drifting bug disguised as a flower. Disperses crackling clouds of pollen if threatened."

[hasty light]

I either never paid attention or completely forgot lol

[naive lake]

while improbable i believe hollow knight bugs are not bug sized, i belive they are normal human sized with disproportionate scaling similar to one piece

[hidden seal]

I think the mushrooms are also plants (I know they're different irl but this isn't irl)

[fathom hill]

i mean

they clearly aren't the same thing

[hidden seal]

I think those are actually bugs, but greyroot and white lady are roots

also sister splinter and the stickbugs are supposed to be other camoflauging bugs

[robust wagon]

Basically every common creature is a bug

[hidden seal]

so there's a distinction between actual root plant creatures and bugs that just happen to look like plants to disguise themselves

[analog tree]

she keeps talking about pets but did we even see any pets in hallownest

[molten python]

Interesting, that changes things.
"The creatures within are not bug but mushroom. They aggressively protect their territory."

[fathom hill]

not bug

[hasty light]

I’d like to think in the hk universe this all happens underground and macro scales while there are normal sized animals that are giants compared to these bugs

[hidden seal]

yeah not bug, but I think they fall under the same category of root?

[molten python]

Fungi.

[hidden seal]

unless they're seperate again

[fathom hill]

So like maybe it just means animal in that case

but like sentient animal

[hidden seal]

I don't know if there actually is a macro scale in hk

[molten python]

They are referred to as fungal creatures generally.

[fathom hill]

And gods are put there since they look like animals

like bugs

[hidden seal]

it's better to just treat it as a bug-themed fantasy world rather than thinking of anything from irl being outside the bug world

[hasty light]

Thats a mystery we will probably never solve

[molten python]

I am reminded of early Hollow Knight concept art.

[fathom hill]

i mean we do know cuz of the collectors edition pin no?

[hidden seal]

that's actually stunning wth

[hasty light]

I don’t think team cherry ever intends to expand on the world outside of the kingdoms

[naive lake]

?

[molten python]

Insects being human-sized makes more sense if you consider the fact that Team Cherry is from Australia.

[hasty light]

Looks like the stickbugs made it to pharloom, much smaller

[hidden seal]

I don't think we have anything to scale them to irl iirc

[analog tree]

there was no information on any bug getting crashed by some giant dog or human or cat or whatever

[hidden seal]

our bugs are often pretty small actually

[analog tree]

even though there were numerous stories of bugs going to the surface (nameless town in silksong and wanderer's journal and quirrel story in hk)

[hidden seal]

just very venomous

[fathom hill]

there's a pin in the collectors edition of hk with the shape of the knight

[hasty light]

There is almost no information of the outside world whatsoever

[analog tree]

.

[fathom hill]

apparently it's real life size it's what the size would be approximately in game

[hasty light]

Yeah but scarce

[analog tree]

surely there would've been at least some sighting or mention

[fathom hill]

but also they tweeted once abt hornets needle's reach being 30 yards or something

which apparently made the knight the size of a small dog

or a small child i dont remember

[hidden seal]

I don't think we can take something from a tweet as accurate scale for anything except fun thought experiments lol

[hasty light]

Maybe animal or human sightings are rare for them idk

[hasty light]

There has to be 1 universe where someone gets bitten by radioactive hornet

[analog tree]

would've probably been at least some mention like wishing for the travelling bugs to not get crushed if they would've existed

unless they only exist on some other side of the world or something

[fathom hill]

from 2014 no less

[analog tree]

the needle can get launched quite far with silk soar

[edgy barn]

Hornet looks so weird here.

[analog tree]

so maybe it's less that it's big and more that it can travel far

[fathom hill]

the radioactive hornet could be in our world we just haven't found her yet

[molten python]

That's from 3 years before Hollow Knight was released so yeah.

[hidden seal]

true, maybe 30 yards is the distance of the abyss escape soar

[molten python]

I mean hornets are real, we can make one radioactive,

[hidden seal]

hornet's dress did also change colour between hk and ss

[fathom hill]

hornet is not a hornet tho

shes like a hybrid thing cosa

[molten python]

It was the same colour in the original trailer, they changed it midway during development.

[fathom hill]

maybe if we find a wyrm

[bitter coral]

Chat are the snail shamans the same ones from hk?

[edgy barn]

As a fnaf fan, you shouldn't take literally and seriously throaway lines from the beggining of a franchise.

[hidden seal]

I think it was the right decision, makes her look way more vibrant

[hasty light]

We don’t need hornets, we need the Hornet

[fathom hill]

I'm not

[hidden seal]

different ones same species

[fathom hill]

I'm just making fun at the inconsistency

[hidden seal]

they have unique shells and shapes

[bitter coral]

Oh alr

[fathom hill]

But I'm sure the pin thing is more accurate

[molten python]

Hornet, child of spider and worm, raised by root, trained by a bee named after wasps.

[fathom hill]

are wyrm worms

[hidden seal]

they are just as weird tho, and could still be from the same family tree

[bitter coral]

Yeah they were very similar to me when I first saw them

[molten python]

Same with the general areas and backgrounds, they look a lot duller in the original trailer.

[edgy barn]

Calling a wyrm a worm is probably an in-universe insult or form of mockery judging by Grimm's dialogue.

[dusty coral]

time for the big question, what is this pickup in the needolin dream sequence?

[fathom hill]

what was the difference between a maggot and a worm again

and whatever salubra is

[hasty light]

Also vespa was probably the most proactive in raising her, since she didn’t see the white lady or herrah much

[edgy barn]

A memory orb. You also find them in other sequences like Verdania.

[analog tree]

he doesn't say worm though?

[dusty coral]

oh cool thanks

[molten python]

Worms aren't really a specific species in-universe. There's a lot of creatures that fall under the worm umbrella. In Silksong, there's Gromlings, Groms, Sandcarvers, Voltvyrm, Shadow Creepers, and Shadow Chargers.

[hidden seal]

I assumed that "worm" was just meant as a translated insult, the bugs don't speak english afterall, so maybe he said something different in universe

[fathom hill]

giving how the white lady may have or may have not raised her I'm not sure

[analog tree]

oh nvm ctrl+f didn't work for some reason

found it now

[fathom hill]

she has white attire so she spent some time in the palace

[molten python]

The White Lady raised her, Hive Queen Vespa trained her, and Hornet is named after Vespa.

[fathom hill]

Plus that one quote i spent like an hour searching cuz reddit sucks

[hidden seal]

the area is called the wormways

[edgy barn]

He does actually. "A fine stage you choose, this kingdom fallowed by worm and root, perfect earth upon which our Ritual shall take place."

[molten python]

Yep. The creatures I mentioned are the ones explicitly referred to as worms in the hunter's journal.

[hasty light]

Oh right I forgot she was raised mostly in the white palace, which is where most of her mannerisms come from

[analog tree]

#sk-lore message

[fathom hill]

just like real life apparently

worms isn't like a used taxonomical term anymore

[molten python]

True. They're more of an informal classification.

[hidden seal]

maybe "wyrm" is reserved for higher beings? In other stories the word wyrm is often for mythical creatures like dragons

[molten python]

Wyrm is a specific species.

[fathom hill]

Also the pale king seems to be the last one of them so

rip no more wyrms

[hidden seal]

unless the blackwyrm is real

[fathom hill]

it isn't

[hidden seal]

but it could be

[fathom hill]

no

[edgy barn]

Blackwyrm is going to be a river and you are going to like it.

[molten python]

At least in the area around Hallownest.

[molten python]

Actually there's a creature called the Waterloo.

[fathom hill]

for now higher beings are either pale or non pale

[vague whale]

I mean, there was

[fathom hill]

pale king was a pale wyrm

[stray fog]

That's just a tautology

[vague whale]

That was a guy's name lol

[fathom hill]

i mean yeah

[molten python]

But was the battle named after Waterloo the place or Waterloo the person?

[fathom hill]

it's just that idk how else to classify them if not that

pale beings and whatever the radiance and unn are

[stray fog]

Is unn pale?

[fathom hill]

no

[molten python]

No.

Only pale higher beings we know are the Pale King, the White Lady, Grand Mother Silk, and somewhat their kin like Hornet.

[vague whale]

But what was Waterloo the place named after

[fathom hill]

oh is hornet pale?

[stray fog]

Half pale

[fathom hill]

i mean she is wyrm so id guess

imagine pale is just shiny and any species can be pale

[molten python]

After some quick research, Waterloo just meant "wet clearing in the forest."

[stray fog]

That might genuinely be true

There are pale flowers
Pale slugs
Pale gods
Some random ass child is pale (pale lurker)

[molten python]

The Radiance is pretty shiny.

[fathom hill]

there's a pale muckmaggot out there you just have to find it

[fathom hill]

she is

But she is not pale

[molten python]

Wasn't the Pale Lurker called that because of the Pale King?

[molten python]

Yes, that is my point.

[fathom hill]

i meant shiny as like pokemon

[stray fog]

Idk anything about the pale lurker's lore

[fathom hill]

shiny Pokemon like

[molten python]

Oh, I see.

[fathom hill]

it's just really rare for a bug to be born pale

So not all wyrms are pale is my point

or trees like the white lady

[stray fog]

I think Paleness is like a way to say "powerful"
All pale gods are obviously powerful
Pale ore and pale oil empower weapons
Everblooms are the only things that cancel out the void

[fathom hill]

maybe that's why the vessels even if they are entirely born from pale beings, don't look like it

it could be the void though

[molten python]

Does breeding shiny Pokemon produces more shinies?

[stray fog]

There is a back wyrm

A black thing cannot be pale

[molten python]

Waterloo moment.

[fathom hill]

also hornet is half pale but she only takes seems to take the form of a pale being after binding gms

[fathom hill]

nope

It doesn't even up the probability

[fathom hill]

rude

[stray fog]

😭

[molten python]

She becomes the next Weaver Queen, replacing GMS. It's a parallel to the Knight replacing THK when you beat the final boss but you don't proceed to the true final boss.

[fathom hill]

and as i said the blackwyrm aint a thing

we dont know if its a wyrm or a place or

[stray fog]

The black wyrm battle was political propaganda by the pale king

[fathom hill]

[fathom hill]

paleness seem to give you a liking to soul

and that we can say abt paleness

that differentiates from othe rhigher beings

this one is very green though

I saw a vid abt some lore facts youtuber, the vid was like very obviously put together by half assed chatgpt

[edgy barn]

Radiance, Unn and Nightmare Heart are/were very powerful and they are never refferred to as "Pale".

[fathom hill]

they said something about how the moss cult in hk were actually talking abt the "green corruption" in pharloom

like what is the green corruption dawg

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-walking-glow-gif-9308707

[stray fog]

I said that all pale things are powerful
Not that all powerful things are pale

[fathom hill]

when did green corrupt hk ever

[edgy barn]

But if Pale is just a term used to describe powerful things, wouldn't everything powerful be pale?

[fathom hill]

did bro never pass moss grotto or something

[stray fog]

True

[fathom hill]

and he thought the moss was the whole game

[umbral widget]

Is there a lore reason to why lace who's on way more grams of void crack than anybody can be saved from the void corruption but Garamond js gotta die
"It's the only way" always had me confused

[fathom hill]

gms saved her mind somehow

[edgy barn]

i am not so sure man the moss knights look like they would have accepted bribes.

[fathom hill]

also the fact that she is a construct may have helped

[umbral widget]

The power of plot armor

[molten python]

Not all powerful beings are pale. Something common to pale beings, including Hornet, is that they feel an intrinsic urge to dominate other bugs.

[fathom hill]

didn't you see how she just astro projects up there

[edgy barn]

Lace is a silk being, Garmond is a normal bug.

[umbral widget]

Sexually?

[fathom hill]

and how hornet never mentions it once or finds it weird lmao

[edgy barn]

Yeah I was in fact arguing your side.

[fathom hill]

haha sometimes

[molten python]

No. I meant as in rule over them. Being worshipped.

[frank dove]

Unn corruption

[molten python]

Although I guess you're not completely wrong considering the White Lady.

[umbral widget]

Are you sure

[edgy barn]

You can actually give geo to the moss knights and they will just let you pass.

[umbral widget]

Ydk man the Pale King might have had a harem

[fathom hill]

i mean

[molten python]

The White Lady is much more likely to have had a harem lol.

[fathom hill]

he got around

[edgy barn]

WL was too demanding already (unironically)

[fathom hill]

but not that much he was kind of a hermit

he spent a long time in the palace apparently

[molten python]

I don't think the Pale King would have enough time for a harem with how much he already had to exert himself, just look at the number of bodies in the Abyss lol.

[fathom hill]

i once saw a vid abt how since the pale king seems to be smaller than other higher beings he may have been insecure

which is an idea ig

[molten python]

No, have you seen the Grave in Ash? He deliberately became smaller.

[edgy barn]

I have watched it. It's an interesting idea however PK choose to become smaller.

[umbral widget]

He literally was a giant ass fancy version of a worm before changing his form
Mf wanted to be tiny and submissive

[molten python]

"God-king, you reduced your form to match Our meagre shells... "

[fathom hill]

bro wanted to be a trad wife so bad

good for him

[fathom hill]

yah of course

[umbral widget]

No cost too great he really meant it to the end

[fathom hill]

cue the theory that pk was the one to lay the eggs

[umbral widget]

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-focused-interested-listening-concentrate-gif-8657075

[molten python]

I created that theory btw.

You guys are welcome.

[fathom hill]

cool

Did it just become more possible with ss release

[hidden seal]

YOU

[molten python]

It's not exactly a serious theory, just based on worm and tree biology, if we assumed PK and WL really are based on worms and trees.

Since plants don't lay eggs, only spread their seed, and worms are hermaphrodites meaning they have both reproductive organs.

[subtle vortex]

cannot imagine pk shitting out a giant egg

[edgy barn]

In one side, you are right. In the other, vessel eggs are bigger than PK's entire body.

[fathom hill]

he readjusts

[molten python]

He transforms back into giant wyrm form for optimal egg-laying.

I did make some serious theories like bell beast and groms, I haven't seen anyone mention that before me.

[subtle vortex]

oh yeah they have like, the same colors

gromling > grom > bell beast?

[edgy barn]

We know what a baby bell beast looks like and it's not a gromling.

[subtle vortex]

oh right

i guess they could be related

but not specifically growth phases of a bell beast

[fathom hill]

given how they seemed to breed some species in the citadel

could be those just have been bred for the bellways by it

[subtle vortex]

wormways - bellways

[fathom hill]

yah?

[subtle vortex]

[fathom hill]

Like artificial selection they just made a grom that could be used for the bellways

and called it bell beast

[subtle vortex]

how did bell beast even have children

[slim tree]

Tiktok ss fandom is stupid

[subtle vortex]

like did she birth them?

[fathom hill]

i mean

arguably

[slim tree]

arguably yes but the pale king wasnt doing anything wrong

[fathom hill]

ig cause of all problems vs origin of all problems if anything

[stone herald]

hornet aint even in that family look at her big ass head

[molten python]

No. More like Bell Beasts are an offshoot of Groms, possibly evolved through deliberate selective breeding for use in public transportation. We have already seen selective breeding in action at the Memorium.

[fathom hill]

yah

i wonder if theres a bell beast nest out there then

[subtle vortex]

bellnest

[fathom hill]

or if the bell beast is the only one left which is weird

[hidden crater]

I SAW THAT EARLIER LMFAOOO

[subtle vortex]

thats just... old stag

[upper copper]

Who was talking here? (Also why is it called life support tank?)

[subtle vortex]

also bell beast isnt the only one left thanks to the beastlings existing now

[subtle vortex]

phantom was on life support? LMAO 😭

[upper copper]

I mean, phantom still needs it

[hidden crater]

THAT WAS LIFE SUPPORT???

[molten python]

Other than the bodily similarities, we know:

1. Both are underground burrowing creatures.
2. Selective breeding and enlargement has been seen in action at the Memorium.
3. The bell beast is located right after gromlings and groms in the Hunter's Journal.
4. Although the bell beast has 4 "eyes", that doesn't disprove anything since gromlings have 1 "eye", and the number of "eyes" double when they turn into groms.
5. Some people have said that they cannot grow legs through evolution. However, creatures like mites which don't have legs grow legs when they turn into a mitemother so it's not impossible in-universe. Same for people who have said that the mouth is different, cragglites don't even have mouths but cragglers do.

[azure rivet]

i saw on a yt short that said the kingdom of karak was once half of pharloom according to the snail shamans

is this true or bs?

[molten python]

Crust King Khann once ruled half of Pharloom, yes.

"Up top of those caves lost to wind and sand rests a crusted old ruler, a once great warrior king. In their prime, they and their order held half of Pharloom under hardened claw."

[frosty gate]

That was until the Silkquisition entered the game

[molten python]

Another plausible relation between creatures.

[subtle vortex]

i rlly wanna know more about the mt fay bird and its relation with the area and the weavers and stuff

[hidden seal]

this makes a lot more sense than the grom > bell beast theory

they are found in the same area afterall

[dull merlin]

Guys i have a theory uh sherma is hornet's lost dad yeah yeah

Yup w theory anyways bye

[molten python]

For the bell beast, I actually think the fact that the entries are located together in the journal is some of the strongest evidence.

[hidden seal]

I see the connections but I still think it's stretching a little bit

[stray fog]

They look so similar that I think its basically confirmed that they are related

[molten python]

I mean the bell beast is one of the earliest enemies you fight, I would expect it to be located higher up in the journal if it was unrelated.

Since the journal entries are generally grouped by related species and ordered by in-game order/area order.

[hidden seal]

I imagine the lore will be expanded in the dlcs, but as of now they only have the visual and journal connections, so I don't support the theories based on selective breeding or mutations just yet

I personally like the theory that they're connected, but atp we're making theories about theories

it's pulling too far from our canon info to be taken as more than just fun headcanons

[molten python]

The main theory is just that the species are related. Selective breeding is just one of the possible explanations.

[hidden seal]

again, theories of theories atp

I hope they do expand any possible connection in a future dlc

[ember river]

I think this was suggested before and I like it

Mainly because I despise any theory claiming that fayforn is a higher being

[stray fog]

Bell beast lore is not likely to be addressed in a dlc

[hidden seal]

fayforn is confirmed higher being no?

[ember river]

It's not confirmed at absolutely any point

[hidden seal]

all we need is a lore tablet

[molten python]

I came up with the selective breeding thing more as a reply to people who kept saying that groms and bell beast aren't the same species since beastlings don't look like gromlings, a possible explanation for the evolutionary offshoot. It's not integral to the theory, you can consider it just headcanon.

[molten python]

Yeah, this one I first heard in another Discord server.

[hidden seal]

my headcanon is still about weaver/gms interference, since we only see drastic changes to a creature being made by gms, citadel breeding is less advanced in comparison

[covert night]

they could very well be the same species

[ember river]

I really don't like how little weight people give to Higher Beings. The mere existence of one makes the entire setting gravitate around them

You can see GMS's influence all over

[hidden seal]

unn

[stray fog]

I just noticed that the fayforn has legs

[ember river]

Unn is rather chill but she still spawned a massive forest and an entire species from a dream

[molten python]

Weavers seems possible since I assume they created the Bellways for fast travel.

[ember river]

And she was worshipped pretty much all the way until the arrival of the Infection

[molten python]

Because you can't see them while Fayforn is sitting.

[stray fog]

Oh

[hidden seal]

the whole bell aspect of the religion was created by the weavers (as part of the song to contain gms), so the bellways would've defo been weaver-era (conductors were more into ventrica iirc)

[ember river]

Ventrica is the name of the pneumatic tube transport thing

[hidden seal]

yeah

[ember river]

I don't think it has anything to do with the song

[hidden seal]

what?

[molten python]

I've always thought of them as elevators but yeah.

[hidden seal]

read again

[ember river]

Well yeah, pneumatic elevators

[ember river]

The "as part of the song" thing I mean

Not sure if you meant ventrica replaced bells as part of the song?

[hidden seal]

reading comprehension 🥀

[ember river]

Not my fault people will tie even the water striders into that damn song

[molten python]

Ventrica is more for travel within Citadel and Citadel-adjacent areas since they don't have bellveins connecting them.

[stray fog]

There's a higher being for every "element" in this world (dreams, void, nightmare, lifeblood, silk), but Why is there no higher being for soul

[ember river]

Because you're looking at it wrong

[covert night]

ventrica is the bourgeois elevator

[ember river]

Higher beings can use these forms of energy, for instance the Radiance and the Nightmare Heart both use Essence, but they aren't the incarnation of Essence or anything like that.
Lifeblood seems like it's just the consequence of the higher being itself instead of what empowers it, it seems quite tied to Essence as well all things considered.
As for silk, it's just soul woven into another form. Pale beings seem to have natural mastery over soul like how the Radiance and NKG have an inherent mastery over Essence. That's why the kingsoul provides endless amounts of soul and GMS can just keep producing silk forever

But higher beings are NOT manifestations of concepts

[hidden seal]

For gameplay reasons, I wish there was a ventrica in the slab, but I think the lack of one is another detail pointing towards the imprisonment of the guards

[ember river]

Except perhaps Void Given Focus

[ember river]

Curiously enough the slab isn't considered part of the citadel proper in the map

[molten python]

Same for the Underworks but yeah.

The Citadel is just the luxurious area.

[ember river]

Oh yeah the underworks too

And the Cradle

Which is ironic since the Cradle was the original citadel

[stray fog]

Terminus

[hidden seal]

there's a difference between what is considered part of the citadel on the map and what should be considered part of the citadel for lore discussions IMO

[ember river]

In the map it's not part of the "citadel", the slab and underworks are obviously part of the citadel too

[stray fog]

Yeah ig the pale king and gms had soul related powers

[hidden seal]

I think the underworks has been seperated out of universe in order to break the map up a bit, but it's clearly directly connected to the greater citadel and it's infrastructure

[ember river]

Also, keep in mind dreams and nightmares are just uses of Essence too

[stray fog]

Idk why I typed "terminus"😭

[ember river]

Higher Beings seem to be able to manipulate these primordial forces of the world to an extreme degree

[stray fog]

What was I trying to say

[molten python]

It makes sense lore-wise, the Citadel is just the luxurious area. It's where the Underworkers dream of going.

[ember river]

Which is also why I'm somewhat reluctant to consider Nyleth a full fledged higher being, I'd rather put her as a properly realized "progenitor", kinda like the Broodmother and Flukemarm, but less gross and disgusting

[hidden seal]

I understand your sentiment, but I think "the citadel" can also refer to the greater megastructure, which includes the underworks

[ember river]

When I talk about the citadel this is what I usually mean, the entire megastructure

[molten python]

I mean from what I've seen the game usually uses Citadel just for the luxurious area and not the entire megastructure. The people in the Underworks refer to the Citadel as a different place.

[ember river]

The luxurious areas are often referred to as the choir or the choral chambers

[stray fog]

Is there even any indication that she is a higher being?

[ember river]

It's still easier and more understandable to just say the citadel for the entire thing instead of "the citadel, the underworks, the slabs and the supporting infrastructure found in the putrified ducts and exhaust organ"

[ember river]

She is said to be Shellwood or something, I don't remember the exact words

[molten python]

The ancient heart of Shellwood.

[hidden seal]

we should come up with a different word for the collection of areas including the citadel and underworks, that is different from "the citadel" as an organisation and "the citadel" as the area on the map

[ember river]

This, thanks

[ember river]

I feel like we can just keep doing what we were doing, differentiating between the choir and the underworks has worked well enough

[hidden seal]

I don't think nyleth is a higher being, she's on par with khann/karmalita/green prince in terms of power for the sake of the shaman's spell

[molten python]

Pharloom metropolitan area.

[ember river]

This is my main argument against it as well, it feels weird that an actual higher being is THAT weak

[molten python]

I don't think it would be that weird since higher beings don't really have to be strong in terms of combat power.

[stray fog]

When the second green prince dies, verdania starts to regrow. I think all the old hearts were like the life force of their regions

[ember river]

They are strong in pressence though

[hidden seal]

it's her spiritual power we're concerned about really.

[ember river]

Nyleth's heart is as powerful as mortal hearts

[molten python]

Something similar was mentioned for Karmelita, let me find the line.

[hidden seal]

her heart was equal for the shaman's spell

[stray fog]

It feels weird that we would kill a higher being so casually

[ember river]

Something like that, yeah, they are the accumulated strength of the tribe over countless generations

[molten python]

Gilly: This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? If so, what will happen now?

Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.

Gilly: You, miss? But why? Why destroy something so vital?

Hornet: It is a difficult thing to explain simply... A test was needed, to ensure my strength before a greater challenge soon to come.

[hidden seal]

the only higher being we actually fight in game is rad right?

[ember river]

That's why they say "the current owners" or wielders or something

[ember river]

GMS

[hidden seal]

true, her fight was so easy it left my mind...

[ember river]

And NKG depending on how you look at it

[hidden seal]

ehhhh

[ember river]

NKG is definetely not the Heart at full power

[molten python]

and THK and Lace/Phantom depending on how you look at it

[hidden seal]

I think it's the heart thats the higher being, not nkg

[ember river]

THK was just a vessel, and Lace was definetely not a higher being no matter how you look at it

[ember river]

NKG is ultimately a puppet of the Heart

[hidden seal]

thk is at least the child of higher beings

hornet too I guess

[molten python]

well i have bad eyesight so i can look at it like that

[stray fog]

Thk was directly born from 2 higher beings, but lace was not even born

[ember river]

But it's probably far from what the Heart can do at full power

[molten python]

Also Zote, not depending on how you look at it.

[hidden seal]

lace was created by a higher being with their power

[lone quarry]

Do i need to spoiler here?

[ember river]

Grey Prince Zote can solo the pantheon of Hallownest

[stray fog]

No

[molten python]

No.

[lone quarry]

Ight

[ember river]

So were the weavers

[lone quarry]

Considering that this is the menu after sisters of the void ending, does this imply that Hornet and Lace left Pharloom?

Im really curious abt this

[molten python]

They were given intelligence, not created.

[ember river]

I think it goes to show that Lace survived and was saved

[stray fog]

Lace would die pretty soon

[hidden seal]

not necessarily, hk has a similar ending screen

[ember river]

They were given vast power too

[upper copper]

What was the mottled skarr scout that gives you the curvesickle about?

[lone quarry]

Oh ur pretty right lol

[ember river]

Hornet can produce silk on her own though

[lone quarry]

Which one was it? ion remember

[hidden seal]

the mottled ones seem to be outcast

[molten python]

Yes, the power to weave Silk. Still, although Weavers as in the species could be said to be created by GMS, the Weavers themselves were not.

[stray fog]

I read somewhere that lace needs a huge amount of silk to survive

[hidden seal]

the grey bits are an actual genetic thing, not just paint or something

the mottled skarr merchant is also killed by their own brethren

[ember river]

Fair enough, though I don't think there's much difference between that and GMS creating Lace

[molten python]

They were just discriminated against, probably told they were cursed.

[lone quarry]

I hope tc elaborates on this

Something in the third game ig...

[upper copper]

Yeah but what does that one want exactly? Maybe it wants the curvesickle technique to continue?

[ember river]

Her own entry (or maybe Phantom's). In any case, good luck finding more silk for Lace unless Hornet can somehow transfer Eva into her or something

[hidden seal]

good question, there's not a whole lot of info about it tbh

[ember river]

Which would most likely be an absolutely terrible idea by the way

[molten python]

On a somewhat related note, this is mostly headcanon, but I think the Weaver curse might be related to the Silk. I mean, since they are not higher beings but have to pass on this higher being power to their offspring.

[stray fog]

Actually that's a pretty cool idea. Eva could save lace

[molten python]

Up to interpretation I'd say.

[ember river]

It's cool but mixing two unstable oddballs together is most likely not going to end well

[hidden seal]

where is this written?

[stray fog]

I read it in this channel before

[molten python]

If I remember right, the exact words were "much silk would have been needed to see her sustained."

[ember river]

A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

[hidden seal]

forgot about this

[ember river]

We also don't get a reference for how "much silk" exactly means

Or at which rate

[hidden seal]

hornet would have to safely transfer eva for lace to bind her

[lone quarry]

Also ive got another question, after hornet becomes the weaver queen in the base ending, i she evil too like gms?

[hidden seal]

unclear, though she definately doesn't seem to be cleaning up the silk

[stray fog]

Can lace, or even anyone else in this franchise, bind?

[ember river]

Phantom seems pretty torn up but it's been a long time without any maintenance and he's still the most able fighter with a longpin in Pharloom according to the entry

[molten python]

I think since it says "would have been needed" and not "is needed", it more so implies that a lot of Silk was used during her creation so that she can last for a while, not that she needs a constant supply.

[hidden seal]

weavers can, because first sinner does it in her boss fight

also in the cut ending gms seems to bind hornet

[ember river]

She fully embraces her instinct of domination and follows it. I'd assume she became a bit more like her father than GMS but that's just headcanon

[lone quarry]

Oh ok, ive heard that she becomes evil and that some lore proves it but i forgot to ask more from the person cuz i was still playing the game...

Ohh ok

Thanks

[hidden seal]

neither lace nor phantom is ever seen using any kind of silk power, so lace might not be able to bind

[ember river]

Binding seems uniquely a weaver thing

[stray fog]

Idk whether she's evil, but the weaver part of her wants to rule, maybe even control the citizens of pharloom

[ember river]

It's not her weaver part

It's her father's inheritance

[hidden seal]

there is dialogue where hornet laments her nature as a partial higher being and her natural inclination to rule over other bugs

[stray fog]

I think its in the dialogue with the caretaker of songclave

[molten python]

It's a pale being thing.

[ember river]

I didn't read it as her lamenting it as much as her considering that option and admitting it's part of her instinct

[stray fog]

Yeah

[ember river]

But Hornet definetely planned to ascend into godhood if she didn't find any better option

[hidden seal]

yes it is

I remember it's during the silk and soul quest iirc

[ember river]

The starting dialogue of that quest

[slow olive]

i saw it as the wyrm side of her wanting to rule, but the weaver side makes it more intense to the point of wanting to rule with force/control

[hidden seal]

it read as a kind of lamentation to me

she is unwilling to give into her nature

[molten python]

"I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top.
And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with more...
That part wishes not to claim a monarch's mantle, rather it would see my freedom regained, and this kingdom's bugs unshackled from their pale chains."

[stray fog]

I might be misremembering, but I think some npc in the game said that it was in the weavers' nature to desire dominance

[ember river]

I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top.
And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with more...

I read this more as an internal debate between the two ways she considers

[ember river]

I don't recall that, but there are plenty of mentions of higher beings wanting control

[molten python]

"So what're you hopin' for, eh? Planning to usurp, to perch above us all as queen? Build up our hopes only to string us all in your own beastly web? Such is the way of Weavers and gods both..."

[ember river]

Ah

[molten python]

I'm not sure if Weavers have an intrinsic urge to dominate others like the pale beings, or if that was said just because the Weavers did do that.

[hidden seal]

weavers were created by a pale/higher being, so it's not unreal to assume they inherited the same urges

[slow olive]

im guessing its based on the experience of the weavers usurping gms and ruling pharloom themselves

[hidden seal]

this aswell

[ember river]

They also thought of themselves as gods for a good chunk of their life

[stray fog]

I think higher beings wanting control is the overall theme of the entire franchise, because there are so many parallels between the stories of hk and ss

[molten python]

This is a bit ambiguous, up to interpretation I suppose.

[ember river]

I wouldn't call it the theme of the franchise but it is an undisputable truth

[lone quarry]

Does mister mushroom reveal any interesting lore?

[slow olive]

higher beings wanting control apply to radiance and gms so far, pale king didnt seem to want to have complete control over hallownest at least

[molten python]

I mean look at my goat Unn.

[lone quarry]

Idk what much he did in hk

[ember river]

Except for Unn the goat

[stray fog]

Only some of the dialogues have been deciphered afaik

[slow olive]

from what i remember, the most interesting lore we get from mister mushroom is the fact that hornet is familiar of him and knows how to speak his language

[molten python]

For Radiance it seemed more like vengeance for the moth tribe's betrayal and a desire to survive.

[hidden seal]

probably, but that mf is cryptic asf

I was down a rabbit hole trying to connect mr mushroom's dialogue to the old hearts of pharloom at one point, rearranging the text to form sentences

hit a dead end though, don't think there's an actual link

[slow olive]

going as far as to infect all of hallownest is definitely the radiance enacting revenge on moth tribe and even the pale king but thats just me tho lol

[stray fog]

The typa shit we'll be doing waiting for the third game

[slow olive]

isnt mister mushroom's whole schtick is he is referring to stuff outside of the actual game

[edgy barn]

What no Zoteboat does to a mtf

[stray fog]

Yes

[slow olive]

like other games and stuff

[hidden seal]

keep in mind that that is also just a theory

[ember river]

Zote will kill the lord of shades and ascend as the true god of gods

He will drink the void with a straw

[slow olive]

a shellwood straw

[hidden seal]

zote would not wish to sully his perfect mask with black goop, instead he will simply take a void enema

[hidden crater]

And then get folded by a vengefly

[edgy barn]

Unironically Zote probably has so little Soul that desunified void wouldn't register him as a target.

[hidden seal]

0% soul but 100% aura 🔥 🔥

https://tenor.com/view/zote-gpz-grey-prince-zote-hk-hollow-knight-gif-11882433432059203225

[stray fog]

I wonder if we'll get a new "god of gods". An everbloom related higher being could be stronger than the shade lord, since Everblooms are the strongest pale thing

[hidden seal]

we'd have to wait for a 3rd game I imagine

there's not enough everbloom lore in SS to support something like that yet

[stone herald]

it might not be a strict hierarchy of strength thing, the delicate flower might canonically be something like a plant that evolved to eat the void or something

and we do see the void overwhelm the everbloom so again, its not neccesarily stronger

[stray fog]

Its referred to as the "first light"

[hidden crater]

The true god of gods

[stray fog]

True

[hidden seal]

there is yet another kingdom where the everblooms originate

[stone herald]

the everbloom originates from the shaman ritual, the delicate flower originates fropm the lands serene

[edgy barn]

The everbloom can't even make it two trips through the void sea 💔

[stone herald]

everbloom =/= delicate flower

[hidden seal]

the delicate flower is an everbloom

[stone herald]

the everbloom was specifically conjured in the ritual, and it doesnt get powercrept by a tiktik, the everbloom is fundamentally diferent from the normal flowers

[molten python]

Yeah, I don't really think of it as Everblooms being stronger, but just being able to resist the Void's power and calm it down. Similar but more effective than the giant Lumafly light.

[stone herald]

and that took like, a higher being equivalent of strength to conjure, and didnt last 2 trips thrtough the void

[hidden seal]

you gotta be trolling or something

[stone herald]

it was reinforced to be stronger than a normal delicate flower im saying

[hidden seal]

it was manifesting an object from a memory that took that power

[stray fog]

Imo that's like comparing 1 lion to 1 thousand humans

[hidden seal]

hornets memory being particularly hard to get into might I add

[stray fog]

Its not a fair comparison

[hidden seal]

godhome flower ending?

[stone herald]

but the everbloom is demonstrably different from the delicate flower

physically

[molten python]

Aren't they just different names for the same flower? It's just the Everbloom in Pharloom that Hornet got specifically being conjured from memory.

[stone herald]

then why is it so much stronger physically

[hidden seal]

they literally look identical fym they differ physically

[stone herald]

does the everbloom break when you take damage

[edgy barn]

The prompt you get when you first optain it still describes the flower as fragile. I think this is a case of Hornet having the means and knowledge to safeguard the flower unlike the knight, rather than the flower itself being stronger.

[stone herald]

really?

let me go double check

[stray fog]

I dont want to be that guy but

Gameplay reasons

[hidden seal]

I was thinking earlier the knight's void nature could be weakening the flower aswell

[hidden seal]

dude youre yapping nonsense you better mfing check

[molten python]

Imagine the only way to beat Lost Lace was winning hitless.

[stone herald]

oh geez i better check god forbid im wrong about a game

[edgy barn]

Fragile flower taken from a deep and distant memory.
Its pale light wards against the void.

[stone herald]

yeah yall right its the delicate flower

[slow olive]

its the same thing, but the composition isnt the same i think? everbloom is made using silk, old hearts, and shaman magic. its basically memory of a delicate flower, brought out of hornet's memory with lots of magic. the delicate flower is the real deal, could be why it is so delicate.

[stone herald]

the knight seems to just be clumsy as shit

though i wouldnt fully rule out the everbloom being reinforced

[molten python]

Hornet does seem to have better item storage capabilities since she can store giant buzzsaws and guns and bombs and whatnot all the time.

[hidden seal]

those were just used to conjure the spell

to get into hornets memory and manifest the flower

[stray fog]

Hornet can safeguard the most delicate thing, but when I run into a wall with a parcel, the parcel takes fucking lethal damage

/j

[hidden seal]

if it wasn't the real deal it would've offered no void protection

[slow olive]

yea manifest, so imo it wouldnt be wrong to say a delicate flower is composed differently from the everbloom

[molten python]

If you were the Knight, the rasher would get destroyed in one hit.

[stone herald]

hmm

[hidden seal]

hornet doesn't give 2 shits about no parcel

[stone herald]

the everbloom sprite is glowing with white dots whereas the knights one isnt

[subtle vortex]

delicate flower is a weaker and more fragile everbloom

[slow olive]

its the real deal based on its effect on the void, not necessarily on its composition

[hidden seal]

this is the nittiest of picking

[molten python]

Hornet's cloak is a brighter red meanwhile the Knight's sister's cloak is a bit more dull.

[stone herald]

could be a stylistic choice yeah

[stray fog]

Hornet was actually nosk in one of the 2 games

[stone herald]

im just adding information

[stray fog]

Possibly even in both of them

[slow olive]

its a memory of a delicate flower made out of silk and brought into reality through powerful shaman magic and old hearts

[molten python]

Indeed I did not notice that in-game.

[stone herald]

the "everbloom" name specifically refers to the delicate fower species at any rate i found the smoking gun: In the distant past, I knew the flower. My thread still holds its faint memory. If the Everbloom was grasped strongly enough within my Silk, it could be made to manifest

[molten python]

Made out of silk?

[stone herald]

so the everbloom doesnt refer to the manifested one specifically

[slow olive]

im referring to something hornet says iirc

[slow olive]

is this the hornet quote?

[stone herald]

yteah

[molten python]

What does "grasped strongly enough within my Silk" mean?

[slow olive]

then yea in that one hornet says "my thread still holds its faint memory"

[stone herald]

i believe its just hornet concentrating her soul around it

[edgy barn]

Why didn't Hornet just have the pharloom bugs build a lighthouse in the abyss is she stupid?

[stray fog]

This dialogue suggests that memories are made of silk
(atleast for Hornet)

[teal drift]

Hornet seems to express her soul as silk

[stone herald]

for her kind silk is asiaclly their soul coalesced

[hidden seal]

she says it can be made to manifest "if grasped strongly enough within my silk", not necessarily made from it

[stone herald]

how do you get the construction equipment down, you only have one broken ass diving bell

[slow olive]

that kinda gives the implication its made within her silk

powered by shaman magic and old hearts

[teal drift]

Silk and soul are a similar substance

[stone herald]

not really, its said that its the imprint of her silk used as a template basically

[hidden seal]

hornet's silk is seemingly made of soul

[stone herald]

the fact that it takes that much power to manifest a memory seems like a bit of e=mc squared type conversion going on

[stone herald]

all silk is

[stray fog]

Her thread "holds the memory"
So grasping it in silk would mean recalling that memory well enough

[molten python]

A lighthouse would only work for the surface, not for diving beneath it.

[hidden seal]

we do see creatures making seemingly soulless silk

[teal drift]

I think producing the flower takes the energy but once its alive it will be chill without need for constant sustenance

[molten python]

It seems somewhat metaphorical, yes.

[hidden seal]

the one that makes the silkeaters that I forget the name of

[molten python]

Styx?

[hidden seal]

yah

[molten python]

Soulless silk is just silk, not Silk.

[stone herald]

styx is more so breeding them, theyre eating the silk that inundates pharloom

[teal drift]

I think the memory flower is almost like a more specific version of vengeful spirit. Its a construction of soul pulled from a specific template. But since the everbloom is more complicated than “big angry death ball”, it required all that power to summon

[molten python]

Silk, when referring to the thread weaved from its creator's soul, is always capitalized and written as Silk, not silk.

[hidden seal]

interesting, never noticed this

[stray fog]

Also, hornet is old af, so that memory would be really old and faded

[stone herald]

it was more so the insane memory dive and manifestation from it

[stone herald]

good catch

[edgy barn]

ehhh pretty sure there are some exceptions to that, but as a general rule it does work.

[slow olive]

"Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator." This means the silk produced by weavers, hornet, and GMS i spun from soul. could be theyre the only ones who can do that process

[hidden seal]

at least old enough to outlive multiple different mates

[edgy barn]

GMS is the primal source of Silk. She is the one creature that naturally has the ability to make it. Weavers got it from her and Hornet inherited it from Herrah, a weaver.

3...2...1

[modest carbon]

WHAT IS UP WITH WHITEWARD!? ITS SO MESSED UP!

[vestal swan]

I felt a disturbance in the force

[stone herald]

theyre putting the silk in the bugs so they live forever

they should not be doing that but thats what theyre doing

[stray fog]

Soul sanctum but silk

[modest carbon]

And scary

[vestal swan]

And more successful

And not idiots

[stone herald]

🙁

what

[modest carbon]

What

[stone herald]

they caused the haunting, the soul sanctum made the best spell ever made

[edgy barn]

I mean the whiteward did make the bugs inmortal

[stone herald]

i mean so did the soul sanctum

[modest carbon]

Yes but at what cost

[edgy barn]

Soul Master did not made desolate dive, he stole it from a shaman.

[stone herald]

really?

fraud master

[modest carbon]

if he’s a fraud he shouldn’t be master?

Fraud fraud

F greyroot

[vestal swan]

Soulmaster stole his spell in the immortality came from being turned into zombies like idiots

And best they have soul teleport and the orb but that orb was most likely from rad

[modest carbon]

Groal moment

[edgy barn]

When you speak to the Ancestral Mound shaman he tells you that his third uncle had similar abilities. Whether that is the very same shaman that gives you shade soul in the sanctum, we don't really now.

[stone herald]

im pretty sure thats the crystal guy (though we do know the soul sanctum losers captured shamans)

[edgy barn]

Crystal is his fourth aunt.

[stone herald]

oh

[modest carbon]

Do you think groal ate the same snail shaman the knight received vengeful spirit from?

[stray fog]

What if that's just groal's spit

Groal the freaky

[modest carbon]

HEEL NAW

[edgy barn]

I mean it's not 100% impossible that the Seeker is the ancestral mound shaman but like, there's no reason for him to end up in Pharloom plotting against the citadel.

Also, he is not allowed to leave his mound.

[stone herald]

no we see the shaman

[vestal swan]

Groal is spitting soul

[stone herald]

you is spitting fax

[vestal swan]

Can't we just compare their heads? Or is the one that has been drained not wearing a helmet

[modest carbon]

Bell hermit doesn’t either?

[vestal swan]

And even if groal ate somebody else's soul it wasn't the shamans, that was still being drained in another room

[vestal swan]

What

[modest carbon]

Idk

[molten python]

I think that Snail Shaman was the source of Groal's Soul powers, but it doesn't seem to me that Groal ate the Snail Shaman.

[stone herald]

w see the snail shaman uneaten

[plain elbow]

groal probably took it soul

[vestal swan]

Ah dangit

[upper copper]

How does the elegy of the deep work exactly? Can you use it in anything in lore?

[plain elbow]

like we took hermits soul

[stray fog]

Are those soul jars in the background?

[edgy barn]

Yes

[plain elbow]

yep

[molten python]

I'm not sure where the eating Snail Shaman thing came from, all the game says is that Groal's strength was enhanced by stolen soul.

[vestal swan]

They do have a similar build but there's still no way that that's the same shaman

Caretaker also has a similar build

[plain elbow]

maybe he took the shamans soul by force killing the shaman in the process

[vestal swan]

It's soul is still sitting in a jar in that room

[stray fog]

Vengeful spirit could be known by multiple shamans

[molten python]

The shaman was killed by Groal, yes.

[edgy barn]

Groal can swallow Hornet during the fight so people assumed he did something similar to the shaman.

[edgy barn]

What Groal uses is also not really a vengeful spirit, is more like, as @.bobbittwyrm would put it, a miscallenous fireball.

[vestal swan]

That still doesn't make sense for stealing the spell, which is not even an impressive spell, also why wouldn't he have just completely eaten him?

It's a soul loogie

[edgy barn]

Like, it is a very basic application of soul.

Groal could have developed that on his own.

[azure rivet]

how far expanded were the skarr pre-silk bs? like their tribe's influence while led by karmelita?

does it mention anywhere that they might've clashed with the ancient coral kingdom?

[stone herald]

unsure, and no

[vestal swan]

Them interacting is not something that was mentioned iirc, they were basically opposite sides of the map

Skar likely had better control of the entire Far Fields area along with more of the hunters march and below

[drifting apex]

these white things in the background are they some kind of pillows?

[stray fog]

Moss grotto was just chilling throughout the pharloom's history

[edgy barn]

The humble shamans killing pilgrims for their spells:

[pure belfry]

Team Cherry apparently once mentioned we would learn more about Deepnest's king and that big hanging thing at some point. We didn't get anything about that at all did we?

I'm guessing this is pretty much gonna remain a complete mystery forever

[pale flax]

What was going on in white ward? It’s genuinely the creepiest place ever

[molten python]

That was a long time ago, they forgor.

[molten python]

Silk surgeries.

[edgy barn]

The citadel injected silk inside bugs to make them inmortal and inmune to sickness. A lot of them died in the process. Others were also turned into the small flying bugs that are used in lambs and that power the cogworks.

[pure belfry]

Yeah I figured retconned out of the lore or something like that

[pale flax]

So the small white bugs are former people? :( thats so sad

Perhaps thats why they lead you through the mist?

[pale flax]

Hospitals in general give me the creeps so whiteward makes it worse lol

[pure belfry]

I'd like to get an ama from Team Cherry at some point. That'd be cool just to be able to ask them about ideas they've had over the years, what they've changed and why

[molten python]

Big hanging thing has been explained in Silksong.

[pure belfry]

wait it has?

[edgy barn]

get out of the server.

[molten python]

Actually I think gromlings are more fitting.

I don't think there's any top-down sprites of them though.

[pure belfry]

Maybe there's potential for some Deepnest lore in dlc. I mean we got Red Memory.

[solar tapir]

there is so much potential for almost everything, so fiting it in a dlc will just result in another game

again...

[pure belfry]

this time it actually will take 14 years

If TC is actually going to make another HK game tho, I really hope they don't announce it too soon.

[solar tapir]

i heard their third game will be not HK

[pure belfry]

where did they say that?

[solar tapir]

I didn't go into detail about this

so idk

[pure belfry]

ik about the Fearless Fox thing vaguely but that's all ik about any potential for future games

[solar tapir]

yea same

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong should've taken 14 years too

[simple hedge]

Pablo

[pure belfry]

that's what I was referring to is the Jason Schreier interview where they said development could've easily continued for 14 years.

Personally I think it's a good thing they went ahead and released it, even if it means they couldn't use all their ideas. The game is already huge, and if they kept going their estimate of 14 years could've become even longer if they kept coming up with more ideas and we wouldn't get the game for like 20 years.

[sinful nimbus]

Well

Maybe not 7 more years specifically but the game does feel very obviously unfinished in its current state

[pure belfry]

I think the only part that feels unfinished is Act 3 imo

[sinful nimbus]

Which is a solid chunk of the game

Its even presented as a third of the game

[naive lake]

i think most of the patches are do e

[pure belfry]

even so I liked the boss fights and lore reveals in Act 3. I just think gameplay-wise in could've been more fleshed out. There's still dlc to expand upon things so its not like we're not gonna see anything new

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know how DLC is going to fix the fact that the Old Hearts quest has barely any exploration involved

My first playthrough is also... done. DLC isn't going to undo the fact that the magic was kinda gone by the time I was wrapping up my first impressions

And to clarify I like the game I just think it could've been a lot lot better

[naive lake]

i assume they will add repeatable boss fight mode because of how much we love them And ways to practice, i hope they do

[vestal swan]

Imagine SS with no shitty retcons 😌

[upper copper]

There are retcons?

[sinful nimbus]

Numerous

[naive lake]

lots

[sinful nimbus]

But I was kinda talking gameplay like really by the time I hit Act 3 I didn't quite care for the story anymore

[pure belfry]

I don't think Act 3 was meant to be focused on exploring new areas anyway. It's more like backtracking through a familiar map. I think there should've been some focus on restoring places as you backtrack through them. Add more wishes and questlines. Act 3 has a solid foundation imo.

[sinful nimbus]

Its a metroidvania

[vestal swan]

Almost a dozen and they all suck

[sinful nimbus]

Such a glaring lack of exploration kinda sucks that's the funnest part of both games

Also backtracking through areas is bad because they bloated the health pools of all enemies

And now like everyone is dead for some reason???

[vestal swan]

Yeah the weak shit not being one shot after I have like the third nail upgrade is dumb

[naive lake]

to be honest, act 3 is the closing act

[sinful nimbus]

TC when they need to kill off half the cast because they're bored

[vestal swan]

Even without the void everything was way too strong for no reason

[upper copper]

How did mort even die? His body is not even under rubble or anything

[vestal swan]

But anyway I hate the early gameplay way more than I hate the end story, it's painfully slow and youre underpowered as hell, I want a new game plus mode

[solar tapir]

can you name some? I think i know only one where is Herrah is a weaver

or i didn't pay attention to the rest

[pure belfry]

Yes but introducing several new places to an already huge map in the finale of the game wouldn't work is what I'm saying. We got some locations expanded for the Heart Quest but the focus is on seeing how the Pharloom we already know was affected by the Void.

I agree about the enemies feeling kinda boring and tedious tho. I don't like the Void enemies

[sinful nimbus]

Snail Shamans now are known for their fixation on the Void
3 queens is now canon
The hive is now renowned for their... steelwork?
Herrah is now a weaver
Void tendrils are hostile despite The Knight having Void Heart
Apparently PK's moulds didn't work according to Hornet
Apparently the pale family had no means of pacifying void according to White Lady
The Hollow Knight and Sealed Siblings don't lead into Silksong
Hornet is now racist

[upper copper]

This one is weird, I thought she could be a hybrid or something just like her daughter

[edgy barn]

https://youtu.be/72FAqtLX2Ik?si=Jc1ZVmTI69Nqg85a

[vestal swan]

Retcons

• lifeblood
• how void heart operates
• hornets lineage
• three queens
• attempting to change shamans
• hive is known for steel work now...
• white lady forgets that her husband literally glows
• all endings kind of being tossed in the trash but not really
• The runaway Weaver (could have just died)
• avg masks actually doing something
• hornet thinks her dad's void robots were a failure

[sinful nimbus]

Some of these are minor retcons admittedly

But like managing to retcon something everytime you reference the first game is kinda insane

[edgy barn]

the runaway weaver is not really a retcon, more of a (for now) unadressed plot line.

[pure belfry]

didn't the Shamans already have an implied connection to Void in HK? I mean you get DDark from a Shaman

[sinful nimbus]

As an underlying concept I don't really like that

The funnest part of Act 3 was exploring more Far Fields

[upper copper]

That doesn’t explain it, though people say that he got killed but wouldn’t his body be eaten?

[vestal swan]

I think they're just dead off screen, but depending on how you look at deepnest they tried to retcon other shit

[vestal swan]

No

They explicitly state that they don't have a connection to it

[upper copper]

Lifeblood? Can you explain?

[sinful nimbus]

No the Shaman considers void a "new power" and says void spells are "unique and expressive" and also claims its not within the Shaman's skills to make Void spells (as the void in said spells came from The Knight)

[vestal swan]

In hollownest lifeblood was allowed to flourish and had like 12 cocoons and nobody mutated. But according to hornet that did happen despite when it happens in pharloom there's barely three cocoons in one tiny localized area

The scenarios don't add up neither does her dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

Now the shamans aren't using void spells in Pharloom per se they're rather opening a portal to the Abyss, but they also claim Hornet should've known all shamans have a fixation on the void which is clearly not true in Hallownest

[upper copper]

To be fair plasmium was forcefully planted

[naive lake]

I think it's because the assitant and the chemist went around injecting everything in wormways with the blue juice

[vestal swan]

Even accounting for this changing the scenario somewhat hornets dialogue throws it in the trash

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says she say the lifeblood infection in Hallownest too and correlates it to the mere spread of Lifeblood

[naive lake]

I am to believe that a lieblood exterminaton was ran across the kingdom and just now (adter the player entered) started to regrow

[pure belfry]

I don't understand how 3 queens is a retcon. One of the devs mentioned that being the origin of Hornet's name long before Silksong came out.

[vestal swan]

Because the hive was explicitly disconnected and refused to interact with the kingdom and its plan

[vivid kernel]

What changes in ss with hornets lineage/three queens?

[upper copper]

I did notice one story “error”, the fact that the shades just… didn’t appear to help? Until you beat up the void of the annoying spoiled brat and lose your valuable flower.

Why didn’t the knight appear sooner?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's fighting style also doesn't match the bees

[vestal swan]

Well part of it was just a maybe, we have confirmation that young hornet spent time in the palace the other part that was a retcon was interacting with the hive, also the fact that they do steel work for some reason

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure if this is a retcon because retrospectively it seems TC always wanted to make 3Q canon but it sure is sloppy writing

[vivid kernel]

The steel thing was a lil wierd to me yeah i see

[silk dirge]

the humble plasmium update

my goat khann better get the traitor lord lifeblood treatement

[vestal swan]

Ew

If I have to fight somebody like Khan and he has regeneration I'm not playing anymore

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood update didn't add more exploration afaik

That's kinda hard to do

[silk dirge]

they didnt add regen to traitor lord lol

[upper copper]

I feel like the “fighting styles” are crests in this verse and you can’t change it unless you absorb bodies with other crests

[sinful nimbus]

Also this is just the potential man meme

"Act 3 will be good in future updates trust me man"

[silk dirge]

mystery icon conspiracy

[vestal swan]

Also why is keeping the lifeblood syringe as a red tool just not an option, turning that into a weapon even if it's just against lifeblood creatures makes a ton of sense

[silk dirge]

team cherry is hiding the real act 3

[naive lake]

gang it's not yours to take

[vestal swan]

The dude ripped out his heart handed it to you and died on the floor yes it is

[upper copper]

I think that’s why her style doesn’t match bees

[silk dirge]

ok but being serious the fact rune harps are not a steam badge is suspicious as fuck

[silk dirge]

what is up with that

[sinful nimbus]

Huh

[vestal swan]

I was also very confused by the uneven number of lore items, 6 of the first one like five of the second one three and then one????

[sinful nimbus]

Why was the detail added then

[upper copper]

@sinful nimbus sorry

[silk dirge]

oh the fighting style discussion my favorite

[sinful nimbus]

This is training not a crest

[wild zinc]

Anyone else think it’s kinda weird how hornet doesn’t try fixing the wormways after they get plasmified?

[vestal swan]

You can be taught different styles without absorbing something

[silk dirge]

where people seem to forget we never see a weaver use a needle in melee

[vestal swan]

TK learns three different nail arts through actual physical training

[simple hedge]

She couldn't fight the Infection, how would she fight Lifeblood?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's combat skills don't really resemble the hive's at all which begs the question of why the detail was added

As it basically kills the pacing of Red Memory

[upper copper]

I think it is just different in this verse

[upper copper]

This sounds dumb

[silk dirge]

like first sinner has a bunch of needles and she doesnt use any of them for melee

[vestal swan]

The only thing Hive related in her toolkit is the spike traps which is dumb

[wild zinc]

I mean I guess there’s not much she can do but considering how much she compares it to the infection and how the current state of the place is partially her fault I felt like she could’ve done something

[vestal swan]

It's literally not, TK does it in the first game

[sinful nimbus]

The hive doesn't do that either

[simple hedge]

She's not too far removed from Hive Knight's fighting style. The rest of the bees obviously don't have weapons tho

[upper copper]

Sorry what’s tk?

[simple hedge]

The Knight. HK protag

[vestal swan]

The only flavor text we have about the needle says it was specially made for hornet and one off hand comment about somebody else maybe using them, she has the only needle in existence as far as we know

[silk dirge]

they use nails in melee which is closer than weavers using their claws

[sinful nimbus]

She actively helps the scientist 🥀

[naive lake]

hornet is a centenial(almost) being, she can make changes to her own combat

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is actually complacent in the destruction of an ecosystem its kinda nuts the amount of character assassination this game does on her

[upper copper]

You mean the nail arts?

[vestal swan]

Yes I already said this

[sinful nimbus]

She also kills the Far Fields ecosystem for no reason too thanks Hornet

[vestal swan]

It's not dead yet, as long as nobody comes in and ruins it it will be fine

And that's also in the one scenario where she decides to kill Carmelita for no reason

[upper copper]

I thought these were just new moves, like the charge attack in skong

[simple hedge]

She's trying to save the rest of Pharloom, and try to free the people living there. I think Verdania is the one she does for no reason in canon

[silk dirge]

i think canonically conjoined heart is the extra heart hornet gets

[sinful nimbus]

No Hornet says explicitly that the land is gonna die

Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.
Gilly: You, miss? But why? Why destroy something so vital?
Hornet: It is a difficult thing to explain simply... A test was needed, to ensure my strength before a greater challenge soon to come.

[upper copper]

Before you laugh at me, crests and nail arts don’t really seem the same…?

[simple hedge]

Yes, it is likely dead for now. It must be reborn

[upper copper]

First of all, what are crests, exactly?

[vestal swan]

That's probably the unification of the ants not the plants?

[naive lake]

The snail shamans said "oh yeah we need 3 hearts of the rulers of pharlooms, we'll show you where they at" and they marked karmelita, khann and nyleth

[sinful nimbus]

What

[simple hedge]

I think it is the portrayal of someone's soul being used through hornet that comes out as a fighting style

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she messed up the ants for no reason that's so much better ❤️ (Ignore that this is a nonsensical reading)

[vestal swan]

She basically had a nature preserve and she united the ants even while she was about to be dead, if they lose the leader that's holding them together the place is going to go to shit

[lone folio]

I would love some sort of sting crest where each attack is a jab instead of a sweep, I expected that to be the case since yk bees sting and hornets weapon is a needle and that's how she fights in the original hollow knight but no

[upper copper]

I’ll just pretend that she got it before-last

[solar tapir]

aren't these a feature of a particular shamans from pharloom?

What about queens? there is some kind of theory that now canon or what?

Steelwork of a hive just adds dept to the hive lore, no?

Why moulds didnt work, i remember hornet says something about tiny ones, like they are useless or so.

"The Hollow Knight and Sealed Siblings don't lead into Silksong" how is that a retcon, i didnt understand

"Hornet is now racist" and this... What?

With the rest i agree. Personally like the fact that despite the void heart, void can still behave like some wild thing, like TK didnt control it all at once, make sense i think.

[upper copper]

“hornet is now racist”

now?

[sinful nimbus]

No, they say Hornet should've known they'd be fixated on void

Hornet being trained by Vepsa is now canon

The hive has literally no prominent steelwork motif like this clearly wasn't intended in the first game 🥴

Hornet says "Only a fool believes that void can be fashioned to do their bidding." in regards to the Moulds despite the fact that this is what they did

Team Cherry said all endings would lead into future content

Hornet is racist towards the Slabflies in her journal, the same Slabflies she knows are literal slaves

[pure belfry]

Idk I like Act 3 aside from the unfinished aspects. I like the Snail Shaman reveal. I also don't necessarily the snare trap is in contradiction with Snail Shamans not being able to directly use or manipulate void as spells because that's not really what the trap is in my understanding. They're opening a portal to the abyss but they don't control what void does. Noone can. I'm pretty sure even Hornet says as such in the steel soul questline. This is also post-HK in a separate kingdom so the Shamans in Hallownest aren't necessarily privy to all the same knowledge the Shamans in Pharloom have.

The Knight controls the Void in HK in a completely different way to what the Shamans do in the construction of the trap basically is what I'm saying.

[sinful nimbus]

Well they assume Hornet should know that the Snail Shamans would mess with void based on her prior interactions

Also Hornets dialogue about no one controlling the void is nonsense... Did she forget about her sibling?

[naive lake]

"hornet killed karmelis for no reason" gang.

[silk dirge]

all im saying is you all are doubters who dont understand the significance of rune harps not being a steam badge

[upper copper]

Speaking of, why didn’t the knight help her before fighting lost lace?

[silk dirge]

im basing an entire fucking conspiracy off that

[sinful nimbus]

Yes if you use the other 3 hearts Hornet can still kill Karmelita despite the fact that it gives no benefit whatsoever

[pure belfry]

I think she's referring to anyone who isn't literally a shade.

[sinful nimbus]

I agree but that's clumsy wording

Squire what are you waffling bout

[naive lake]

that's called a memento and it's an OPTIONAL aspect

[lament steppe]

is is normal for black threads to react to needolin

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah so Hornet can canonically be an awful person

More than she already is. That's not great writing

[naive lake]

YEAH NO SHIT, ITS YOUR CHOICE???

[sinful nimbus]

I am not Hornet

[silk dirge]

canonically conjoined heart is supposed to be the optional one

[sinful nimbus]

The player isn't a canon entity its Hornet doing these heinous actions in game

[naive lake]

"why would chara do that?" Ahh

[silk dirge]

which is why team cherry added verdania regrowth

[sinful nimbus]

vro thinks this is undertale \😭 \🙏

[upper copper]

Bruh you beat me

[pure belfry]

I don't necessarily think so or think that's a big deal. It's implied through context who she is talking about when she say noone can control void. Not everything needs to be explicitly spelled out.

[upper copper]

Her reason

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a big deal but Hornet constantly having dialogue that falls apart when you think about it for 5 seconds adds up

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah this is crazy vro

[naive lake]

The thing is, YOU are the one killing karmelita because hornet can just NOT go after her

[upper copper]

Valid ✅ I really wanted to fight karmelita ahhhh

[lone folio]

Holy shit guys the knight is pure evil with no soul because he kills myla and zote and brumm even though he has the chance not too 😮 😮

[sinful nimbus]

The player isn't canon

Myla is infected and it never kills Zote or Brumm you literally made that up

[upper copper]

Brumm survives and he becomes free from the evil nightmare heart

[lone folio]

Well it has the chance to save both

And it doesn't if you choose not to

So pure evil right there clearly

[sinful nimbus]

TK not going out of its way to help random strangers in combat isn't really analogous

Also Brumm says he'd be fine if he wasn't helped

So like 🥴

[naive lake]

You can literaly avoid killing karmelita, hornet literaly has no motivation to kill karmelita if you used conjoined hearts therefore she would not kill karmelita unmotivated

[sinful nimbus]

But she does and they put in dialogue for that exact occurrence

[vestal swan]

TK does spare characters too though

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that she has no reason to.... is the point

[naive lake]

You guys piss me off

[silk dirge]

so what you are saying is there shouldn't be an optional heart

[sinful nimbus]

She kills a random innocent bystander and literally an entire ecosystem to train

[upper copper]

I agree with you. She kinda needed to train for the final boss

[sinful nimbus]

No because that'd be worse gameplay wise but storywise this is actually terrible

[sinful nimbus]

This is like if she slaughtered Bellhart just to train

[vestal swan]

You can avoid a ton of things in a playthrough, which would mean in Canon hornet does not need that training because she did not need to fight all that other stuff either

[silk dirge]

then i don't get what you want then

because they need an explanation if you use conjoined heart

[upper copper]

That is not training, that is just execution points

[vestal swan]

You could just not kill her at the end of the fight???

[sinful nimbus]

The easiest fix would be to get another use for the Old Heart

[solar tapir]

"Hornet being trained by Vepsa is now canon" if it even a retcon, then a very logic one i think.

"Only a fool believes that void can be fashioned to do their bidding." i see, but it can be just rebuke towards PK from hornet, like she is clearly didnt like her father at all.
Don't take this literally.

"Team Cherry said all endings would lead into future content" Yea that rather a bit funny than retcon, like clearly it is impossible to do.

About the flies. They kidnapped her, so make sence i think?

[silk dirge]

ok i can agree with that

[vestal swan]

Like choosing to let one live after the kingdom gets saved would be a good logic for some of the area returning to normal

Instead we kill all of them and one of them starts regrowing anyway

[upper copper]

Wait, won’t Karmelita die of old age?

[sinful nimbus]

Why does Hornet hate her dad that comes off as very irrational and Hornet isn't really portrayed as an unreliable narrator

Flies are slaves and possessed so they are not responsible for their actions and for Hornet to say they should stop breeding is like clearly eugenicist and is cartoonishly evil

[solar tapir]

But the shamans fixated on void is really weird

[vestal swan]

Probably soon but she could at least pass on her teachings or whatever the hell she's using to another ant or something instead of just killing the leader and have it turned into chaos

[sinful nimbus]

Here are the slabfly journals in question btw

The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better.

Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits no sympathy from me.

The smell from these jailers overwhelms my senses, I strongly doubt they have ever thought to bathe.

Disgusting in both manner and stench, I feel no remorse to see them felled.

With this one vanquished, I hope to have sped the end for that jail and its distasteful order.

She acknowledges they are slaves and in the very next sentence says she doesn't feel bad for the literal enslaved children

[lone folio]

3/5 endings are important to silksong so they did what they promised mostly since the other two are pretty much impossible to use for silksong

[pure belfry]

I think the personality of the flies is somewhat intact considering some of their behavior does not further the ends they are possesed for.

One of them puts on Hornet's dress and swings around her needle in a mocking way

[upper copper]

I don’t know if she had a bond with her dad. She was only born as a bribe for Herrah

[vestal swan]

Silksong follows an embrace the void timeline

[sinful nimbus]

Ummm

One fly being a douche doesn't mean they all deserve to die 🥴

[frosty gate]

Is Star going again on their Racist Hornet discussion?

[sinful nimbus]

They're also all brainwashed

[sinful nimbus]

I will never stop fighting the good fight

[frosty gate]

Weren't you one of the ones that talked about it being DnM?

[upper copper]

Okay she’s racist, but not THAT racist

[frosty gate]

I agree with EtV, I just thought you thought otherwise

[sinful nimbus]

If advocating for genocide isn't THAT racist I don't know what is

[upper copper]

I’m not defending her, but she doesn’t want genocide.

[silk dirge]

like i said team cherry should just move the slab fly dialog to non sapient flies

[vestal swan]

There's a very tiny slim very confusing scenario where DNM might still interact with Godhome afterwards but it's extremely unlikely

[sinful nimbus]

She says they should stop breeding which is eugenics which is genocide

[upper copper]

Okay I’m done ” defending “ hornet. She’s racist

[silk dirge]

"the less these gruesome bugs breed the better"

[solar tapir]

i dont think it that deep. Like the flies just being ugly for the purpose, some equivalent of orks, or goblins in bug world.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the famously not racist Orcs and Goblins nice argument

[silk dirge]

calling for spit squits to go extinct is perfectly valid unlike with slab flies

[pure belfry]

Hornet could just be referring to the ones who kidnapped her and took her stuff as well

[frosty gate]

What are your points aside of the obvious tho?
Like, my main reason is the fact that we don't see THK among the Siblings, which is very much impossible if DnM is the ending.

[sinful nimbus]

But also that's not analogous because they are acknowledged to be regular bugs that were enslaved and brainwashed

[silk dirge]

ignoring the ecological damage to putrified ducts

[sinful nimbus]

The slaves yes

[frosty gate]

You get the journal entry without the kidnapping

[upper copper]

What is DNM?

[silk dirge]

which fuck that what ecosystem does putrified ducts even have