sk-lore

[slow olive]

wait thats you in that screenshot so how did u find that out

[vestal swan]

Are momentos a trophy or something? I mean on PC because they aren't on console

[slow olive]

theyre stuff u can get in game that hornet can display in her bellhome

[steep talon]

PC and console achievements are the same pretty sure

[slow olive]

but they arent in the achievements on steam

[vestal swan]

PC has like 30 more achievements

[silk dirge]

yes its me

[vestal swan]

I know what they are in game I was asking if it was a trophy because if it actually locks you out of something then that logic makes sense

[silk dirge]

mementos arent a trophy

[slow olive]

they arent part of the achievements

[vestal swan]

Okay then act four is not blocked by anything

[silk dirge]

but they are items that have a slot in your bellhome that you could miss

[vestal swan]

They already have a bunch of missable content if it's not a trophy I don't see why that would get ruled out

[silk dirge]

i mean you could also miss items for 100% completion

so many enemies would get unhaunted and die so unless its just like a free pickup from them

[vestal swan]

I mean if there's an act four there's going to be other things that count to a percent and the 100% will be achievable with post-game content, just like hollow Knight

It could happen in a totally different location, it could be coliseum-esque

Etc

[silk dirge]

oh yeah thats a good point

[vestal swan]

Missing things is not really a way to deny act four existing

[silk dirge]

i mean worst case they could have you like

time travel to pre act 4

[vestal swan]

Ew

[silk dirge]

anyways i think likely dlc will be add on content to like act 3 otherwise i dont know how an act 4 could work without a lot of missable items for 100%

[sinful nimbus]

I'm so glad Team Cherry has never had you do a bunch of tedious boring things to progress to the next act so you can't miss them later, that would just be awful game design.

[silk dirge]

yeah but silk and soul would be mild compared to forcing players to get 100% and all mementos

so unless they find a solution for that idk how theyd do it

[slow olive]

how did the new stuff work with hollow knight before anyways?

[vestal swan]

I think this complaint is hilarious because I did everything anyway, I never hit a progress stopping point where I was told to go do something else I had already done it. Why aren't you exploring your metroidvania

[sinful nimbus]

Bold of you to assume Team Cherry cares about not locking players out of 100%

[silk dirge]

i would assume so

they dont want to lock players out of content

otherwise hunters journal in act 3 would be cooked

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway just make a new infection to bring back enemies or something

[slow olive]

is that where the big sinner dude is

[silk dirge]

i mean the important thing is you can get both the items you need from them still

[sinful nimbus]

How

[silk dirge]

are tacks missable

[sinful nimbus]

Seem to be

[silk dirge]

i highly doubt it

[steep talon]

Tacks are just there, steel spines also

[silk dirge]

thats probably a bug

[sinful nimbus]

They are not sold at Grindle's shop either

GOTY

[steep talon]

The only thing you can miss is roach guts materium entry

[silk dirge]

yeah according to wiki tacks are supposed to be next to their bodies in act 3

if they arent thats a bug you should report

[cobalt coyote]

Even tho i can get tacks in act 3 without the roach guts i still do quest for the people that die

So they get smth before it Happens

[terse warren]

The steel spines were missable on release

Stuck in curse crest

[rare crane]

Do you guys think the reason why hornet says "shaw" is because the pale king tries to make her say "saw" instead?

[silk dirge]

yeah but stuff like that is very clearly a bug team cherry did not intend for those to be missable

i think maybe it could work if team cherry didnt let you go back to your bellhome to check the materium and see what you missed

considering this probably would take place in a new kingdom

maybe a new section in the hunters journal idk

[viscid ridge]

I never thought of it before, but i wish we got a hand drawn map for Pharloom like we did for Hallownest

[silk dirge]

tho yeah they probably just could have everything drop where it normally would be

like for example lost garmond is just dead and has the memento on him

and when you go there you auto get journal entry

you could do that for a lot of enemies probably

just have a corpse you check for journal entries

but itd still feel weird

[terse warren]

Tacks aren't missable either and Team Cherry didn't intend for them to be missable lol

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what im saying since star brought them up

anything required for 100% that is missable is a bug

[wintry flame]

lots of enemies are just ceatures you find in nature

or extremely aggressive people (craws, stilkin, skarr)

[silk dirge]

almost all of those are aggressive bc theyre haunted

[wintry flame]

stilkin HATE you by definition

skarr are a tribe of hunters

craws are a society of thieves

[silk dirge]

stilkin are haunted i believe unless the death effects arent consistent

bc groal has the haunted death effect with silk coming from him

same with crawfather

[sinful nimbus]

[silk dirge]

but it doesnt make sense for crawfather which makes me think the death effects are just inconsistent

[silk dirge]

shocker bug game has bugs

[sinful nimbus]

7 years \🥀

[silk dirge]

lets see you develop a bugless game

[naive lake]

not really lore questiom but why dont we have a channel for both lores in one? I mean by technicality silksong does fix some loose silk from hollow knight

[celest wagon]

Random thought, Do you think maybe a kingdom was so advanced they had the capability to produce "holograms"?

[silk dirge]

a lot of runes are kinda like holograms so yeah

[sinful nimbus]

If Silksong is relevant to an #hk-lore topic you can bring it up and just spoiler tag it

If Hollow Knight is relevant to an #sk-lore topic you can bring it up and you don't have to spoiler tag it

Which covers most conversations

[naive lake]

This explains

[novel olive]

(To be fair needolin in some place can get you a hologram memory)

[silk dirge]

what even is being discussed in hk lore

what discoveries are there to still make

[novel olive]

So silk might be able to produce that kind of technology

[sinful nimbus]

Broken Vessel gender

[silk dirge]

i would be certain by this point the vast majority of things that could be found from the game lore have been found

[vestal swan]

Even if we're repeating the same things for the last 5 years there's still people that are new to it

[silk dirge]

true

[hasty light]

Genderless

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[supple plover]

just discovered that Sherma can seen bathing happily in the spa of the Citadel

[hasty light]

Empty shell

[silk dirge]

im talking about hk lore lol

[sinful nimbus]

With a mind

[silk dirge]

also that is a discovery a lot of people have found

[naive lake]

The mist ghosts are somewhat holograms, so silk could be used to make "holograms"

[silk dirge]

most people who have reached act 2 probably

[naive lake]

hologram-like

[sinful nimbus]

I have never seen Sherma in the spa

[silk dirge]

are you saying you cant be genderless if you have a mind wtf 🥀

[hasty light]

Im pretty sure it has no mind to think just like every other vessel

[silk dirge]

i cant believe star would say this

[sinful nimbus]

No other vessel lacks a mind

[supple plover]

it doesn't really have a gender

[vestal swan]

It was hilarious and cute, if you play music he splashes around like a little kid

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King was wrong in his assumptions that all vessels were pure (And if you want to be technical "No mind to think" isn't literal anyway)

[supple plover]

but i wont really correct ppl if they call broken vessel a he

[sinful nimbus]

What if you call her a she

[vestal swan]

He also took off like his armor and his shield or whatever you want to call it and you could just see his little ponytail wrap thing on his head

[supple plover]

it's just wonderful

[silk dirge]

the not cursed spa interaction

[supple plover]

im so glad Sherma just lives and enjoys the goods of life

[naive lake]

sherma feels like bro was born yesterday, but his skill to like, survive dont match his presumed age

[silk dirge]

also speaking of sherma its confirmed william designed him

[hasty light]

I have a feeling that was probably just for the pure vessel since he cared for it too much.

[slow olive]

Sherma could have that hobbit magic of being so small they can slip past most danger

[sinful nimbus]

Well THK is implied to have always been impure so I'm not sure why the other vessels created in the same exact way wouldn't be

The Knight also is pretty clearly not pure

[vestal swan]

Yet they are not given genders, which with all the intent we can find seems to be the plan for all of the vessels. You are the one that needs to prove that the vessel has a specific gender not everybody else you keep arguing with

[hasty light]

But I thought all vessels are still confirmed to be genderless regardless of purity

[vestal swan]

They only specifically commented on TK and thk

[sinful nimbus]

BV's gender is ambiguous

[silk dirge]

ok why was that deleted i feel like that is a fine thing to post in this channel

[sinful nimbus]

Please do not post off-topic material that would detract from meaningful conversation like Vessel Gender

[silk dirge]

sherma being designed by william feels relevant

[subtle plaza]

real

fake

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really lore but William designs some characters yeah, iirc Cornifer is also his design

[vestal swan]

That sounded like a bullshit post it was from the bullshit subreddit, where would anybody even get that information? It's also a massive nothingburger for lore to know who made what

[silk dirge]

i mean cut content isnt lore and this is the place it gets discussed most i believe

[silk dirge]

that person has a picture with them with team cherry

[subtle plaza]

damn chill

[silk dirge]

in the same post

[sinful nimbus]

The cut ending is lore because it can be used to hate on Team Cherry's writing

Where my wyrm GMS fans at 🗣️

[vestal swan]

Cut isn't content

[subtle plaza]

yes it is a joke

[vestal swan]

[subtle plaza]

lol 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think Fayforn could take on GMS

As in get her to a state where she can be bound

[subtle plaza]

idk we've never seen them actually fight

[sinful nimbus]

Supposedly she could rival even the Weavers which isn't a small feat

[subtle plaza]

hmm true ig

[rocky chasm]

I’m not sure if someone else has already found this, but I believe this is cut Pin Pilgrim! (To the left of hornet in the background)

[silk dirge]

rip

[sinful nimbus]

my goat

[rocky chasm]

Pin Pilgrim caught dead in widows arena!!

[subtle plaza]

rip

[gentle aspen]

Who?

[sinful nimbus]

The edge magazine guy

[vestal swan]

I mean all of your fancy magic isn't going to do much if a bird swoops in and picks you up

[sinful nimbus]

He sat outside of Pinley's shop

[gentle aspen]

very good timing scammer

[rocky chasm]

A cut pilgrim who wielded a pin as a weapon. I believe he was removed to make the pilgrims appear as a vulnerable group

[subtle plaza]

maybe gms could mind control fayforn tho

[vestal swan]

Ban them immediately, still get five pings

[sinful nimbus]

DONATE 15 OF YOUR ROSARIES TO THIS LINK TO BE ABSOLVED OF YOUR SINS 🤑 🙏 💸

[silk dirge]

i mean fayforns children got haunted

so thats not a good sign

[vestal swan]

She has kids? where?

[sinful nimbus]

Fayforn herself isn't

[silk dirge]

driftlins

they are atleast very related to fayforn

[vestal swan]

Ehhh

[subtle plaza]

perhaps that was only a matter of time if hornet didnt interfere

[silk dirge]

they mention a "gleaming mother" in needolin dialog

[sinful nimbus]

Perhaps not

[vestal swan]

She could probably just fly away ngl

Also what purpose would haunting the giant bird do

[subtle plaza]

idk i dont feel like we have enough information to determine if fayforn could take on gms or not, expecially considering we don't know much abt fayforns abilities

[subtle plaza]

to win the battle duh

[sinful nimbus]

GMS isn't very strong

[silk dirge]

fayforn probably does have some magic power

[sinful nimbus]

Fayforn taking her on seems quite likely

[silk dirge]

considering mr mushroom poem calls her the heart of frost

[subtle plaza]

ig

[silk dirge]

she could probably freeze gms

like that one flea that got frozen

negative braincell flea activity

[sinful nimbus]

Proof she's an old heart

[subtle plaza]

she does also give hornet immunity to frost so that signifies something i think

[silk dirge]

except her domain isnt gone and shes still in her prime

[vestal swan]

She gives her feathers it's not a power upgrade

[sinful nimbus]

New heart

[silk dirge]

shes a current heart

but yeah she would be an equivalent

[sinful nimbus]

Fayforn bossfight please team cherry 🥹

[silk dirge]

godhome equivalent maybe

[sinful nimbus]

Then you get her as a mount and can fly to the City of Steel

[silk dirge]

PEAK

[sinful nimbus]

No get the godhome slop out of my game

[subtle plaza]

is city of steel a cut area or smth

[silk dirge]

i meant like boss rush in general

[gentle aspen]

its gonna be dlc

[vestal swan]

Take that mid of the rings

[silk dirge]

doesnt have to be godhome

[gentle aspen]

and its gonna have good writing

[subtle plaza]

oh so its just made up ok

[gentle aspen]

It’s referenced in cradle tablets

[sinful nimbus]

\🥀

[gentle aspen]

Why didn’t Hornet take Fayforn to GMS? Is she stupid?

[silk dirge]

coming soon bc apparently team cherry is done with patches and is going to start working on new content soon

[subtle plaza]

i think city of steel refers to the citadel

[foggy fractal]

no

[gentle aspen]

It definitely doesn’t

[sinful nimbus]

The City of Steel is where they found a weaver in foreign lands

[foggy fractal]

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

[vestal swan]

If the citadel was named after its metal it would be the city of brass

[silk dirge]

probably gold

city of gold

[gentle aspen]

Idk, maybe bro ze

Bornze

Botnze

Bronze

first try

[sinful nimbus]

City of Steel writing will be good because the City of Steel hates void (Just like me fr)

[silk dirge]

considering early on the citadel was called the "gilded city"

[gentle aspen]

these would be great for a hk ttrpg

[foggy fractal]

true

[silk dirge]

i wonder how they looked like

do all weaver descendants have the bowling ball head except for hornet

[foggy fractal]

we don't know

[dusky bay]

I wonder since lost lace (even tho not a hard boss but a fun one) is the last one
How would the pantheon for her work
Another phase like godhome radiance? Or what bec I am sure in the pantheon gms won't be there like a backstander
And she does come in the fight by stopping to make silk in the caccoon which lets void waves in

[silk dirge]

hopefully we do learn

[gentle aspen]

Herrah doesn’t

[silk dirge]

yeah herrah is a special case

but other weaver descendants

[gentle aspen]

yeah because they made her a weaver retroactively yada yada

[silk dirge]

herrah is a weaver straight up

[vestal swan]

We don't know what all the weavers look like either

[dusky bay]

That's their mask not head
You can see that by widow's actual head without the mask

[silk dirge]

we still dont know exactly whats going on with first sinner

[sinful nimbus]

There was no proof she wasn't a weaver in the firs tgame

[silk dirge]

bc no other weaver has their head bashed in like that

[vestal swan]

It's part of their body as you can tell when first sinner is created in the cutscene and it grows around her face

[sinful nimbus]

I think First Sinner being the first attempt just meant she was wonky

[gentle aspen]

your ragebait doesn’t work on me

[vestal swan]

Not enough miracle grow in the magic silk

[sinful nimbus]

Thas a joikje

[dusky bay]

It's actually the mask of the little spider but grows like their whole body

[silk dirge]

prototyping is so relatable

[vestal swan]

Thats what I said? It's part of them

[gentle aspen]

widow really got stabbed and her face ripped off

she’s the joker of pharloom

[limpid summit]

Dramatic ass

[foggy fractal]

joker as in joker from dc or joker as in joker from persona 5

[dusky bay]

Everyone owns a mask
It's their personality
Without it they are someone else like mask makers and widow
So like it's between a part of them and not really their full body shape
Like a turtle lel
Their shells grow but its not like their skin yk?

[vestal swan]

No lol

[gentle aspen]

Batman

[dusky bay]

Pale king had a joker that was never seen

[silk dirge]

the hoker(far fields enemy)

[vestal swan]

Not everybody has a mask first off
The tiny little beasts are not wearing masks
It literally grows with them it's part of them
I don't understand why people try to argue with this

[novel steppe]

Widow dosent have one

[vestal swan]

Widow is an OG

[silk dirge]

she had hers removed

[vestal swan]

She had her face peeled off

[novel steppe]

Oh

Who did that

[silk dirge]

me

like how im going to do that to multiple people in this channel /j

[slow olive]

Why is the turtle shell analogy not good?

[vestal swan]

Because the first half of the statement doesn't make sense

[limpid summit]

I think it’s more like if you ripped off her face

[dusky bay]

...
They do
Everyone wears a mask
The beasts wear a mask
The mask is their personality without it
They are nothing
Only a rare few don't have a mask
Take herald for an example

[slow olive]

Oh coz imo the turtle shell analogy works for bugs with masks that grow up with them

For those that dont have masks thats where the mask maker comes in

[terse warren]

Mask Maker is quite literally more lucid without the mask

[vestal swan]

How is Mr mushroom without a personality what?

[dusky bay]

I mean without a mask

[vestal swan]

Masks can change your personality but you don't necessarily need one to have a personality

[vestal swan]

That does not make your statement any more clear

And also a ton of characters don't have masks and the beasts definitely don't

[dusky bay]

Mask maker without and with are like two different people with different personality and ways I talking
Like widow
Where she becomes more aggressive and a fan to gms without her mask

[slow olive]

Did that tall bug in hk that was eating another bug allegedly have a mask?

[lusty tree]

do mushrooms need a mask?

[vestal swan]

Willow?

[slow olive]

Yea

[dusky bay]

Beast eater
Beasts have a mask it's obivous

[terse warren]

We literally never see Widow with her mask you're making this up

[vestal swan]

Willow matches the troupes horse things so seemingly not a mask

[vestal swan]

What the hell is beast eater

[sinful nimbus]

The "masks" are part of their body

You don't need an external object to have a being or whatever

[dusky bay]

Bell eater*

[slow olive]

This convo making me think how many bugs have we seen that are wearing masks that weren't part of their body to begin with

[novel steppe]

You only see widow without a mask, they had it removed by someone

[vestal swan]

What does the Bell eater have to do with masks

[lusty tree]

grand mother silk

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was removed by gms

[terse warren]

I meant with*

[novel steppe]

Oh

[dusky bay]

?
Have you read the journal? It says her mask was forcefully removed

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah it was

[rain gate]

gms also literally doesnt have a face or anything which is interesting
its just a mass of black

[sterile jacinth]

That’s why she’s crazy

[terse warren]

Read one message above

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is a higher being

[novel steppe]

What for? Commitng a crime or something?

[dusky bay]

.
You changed it

[gentle aspen]

They’re talking about you randomly asserting the mask’s removal made her aggressive and a fan of GMS

[vestal swan]

That has nothing to do with this

[dusky bay]

Have you seen one weaver kill another weaver or stated

[terse warren]

Yes?? Because I meant to say with and accidentally typed without

[sterile jacinth]

I think she stayed behind to try to help contain gms but that didn’t really work out for her and she got her mask removed and pins shoved in her back

[lusty tree]

i think it was to reset her mind so she would obey gms

[sterile jacinth]

Exactly

[gentle aspen]

and people are taking mm’s dialogue literally again

wallahi

[nimble kayak]

The shamans say that Khann ruled half of Pharloom, correct? Outside of the Coral Forest, which regions do yall think Karak extended to?

[novel steppe]

That makes sense, but then why are all the other weavers not like that too? Did they escape?

[sterile jacinth]

The slab and blasted steps

[vestal swan]

While it was still part of her body removing her face would alter her personality by the way the masks logic works so it would make her more susceptible to being controlled imo

[steep talon]

moss mother!!?!??!?

[sterile jacinth]

Because they either escaped or are dead

[lusty tree]

widow probably got left behind or got captured by the citadel, thats why shes the only maskless weaver

[vestal swan]

I think it extended to the left, and everything considered blasted steps probably. Where theres sand there probably used to be water

[dusky bay]

She was one of the first to be caught
Her mask was forcefully remove (don't know by who) and pins are on her to limit her
I think all weavers were gonna get this treatment but who knows

[terse warren]

I don't see why GMS would do that rather than just absorb her

[dusky bay]

You think the citadel area too?

[sterile jacinth]

She obviously does a good job of controlling the people of bellhart

[steep talon]

blasted steps, and potentially wormways. Although wormways might be a stretch

[lusty tree]

she wasn't worth absorbing, she was just a normal weaver for all we know

[novel steppe]

As punishment for the rebellion I'm guessing

[dusky bay]

Gms is sleeping

[vestal swan]

Maybe a little bit of it, can't really tell with the citadel what used to be underneath it

[terse warren]

Ok but GMS needs the Silk for Lace why would she waste it

[vestal swan]

That's not how that works?

[sterile jacinth]

Grand mother silk
She has a lot of silk

[lusty tree]

idk how it works ngl

[terse warren]

Clearly not enough

[slow olive]

Wasnt there a theory it was the weavers that did that to widow? The whole demasking and pinning

[vestal swan]

There's no reason she wouldn't absorb another Weaver if she was planning on absorbing them all

[steep talon]

oh yeah, have you all seen the video about pharlooms geology? In that video creator makes a picture a how water most likely flowed from sands of karak through blasted steps. Thought that was pretty cool

[sterile jacinth]

Enough to control almost the entirety of Pharloom. I think one insane weaver is enough

[lusty tree]

shes a source of silk it says that in the hunters journal

[vestal swan]

There's no weaker weavers or anything, hell she's rounding up descendants

[sterile jacinth]

My point lol

[terse warren]

GMS does everything she does for Lace, and it's stated Lace needs a lot of Silk to be alive

Clearly she needs more

[naive lake]

do hollow knight's masks just grow with the bug, like a removable exoskeleton

[terse warren]

It doesn't mean she can make infinite silk

[sterile jacinth]

But lace is fine?

[vestal swan]

She's an eternal child who is being maintained by magic silk, you need more magic silk to keep this going

[steep talon]

removable, yes. But that's like saying your skin is removable

[blissful harbor]

with time she’ll become like phantom without enough silk

[steep talon]

technincally true, but very painful most likely

[dusky bay]

She wanted an idol child
She made phantom and lace
Phantom by time started to decay
And the citadel trapped her in the organ

[vestal swan]

It's like Pinocchio if Pinocchio needed wood from a magic tree to keep having his body

[naive lake]

I see

[sterile jacinth]

Well yeah but I’m saying gms clearly has enough to do that and control the rest of Pharloom even while being asleep

[terse warren]

Yeah for now

GMS has been exploited for generations and generations it's not impossible that she's running out of silk

[vestal swan]

Apparently not if she's rounding up descendants

[sterile jacinth]

Exploited? She’s doing the exploiting. She’s the one controlling the zombie bugs

[dusky bay]

Probably like a turtle's shell or scorpion's shell thing

[terse warren]

Because if she doesn't control the whole of Pharloom they'll just put her to sleep again

[slow olive]

Exploited by the citadel

[lusty tree]

i think shes both being exploited and exploiting

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah and it’s working out for her

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s true

[terse warren]

Did you like not read any dialogue at all

[vestal swan]

It's working out but she's expending silk? These things take resources

[terse warren]

Did you not visit Whiteward

[sterile jacinth]

Did you? She’s controlling the bugs

What do you think they’re controlled by??

[vestal swan]

What do you think she's using up to control the entire country

[heavy gyro]

Doesn't gms control the bugs through the silk in them, not by using her own silk

[vestal swan]

What do you think she's using up to repair her child

[dusky bay]

She also needed someone to get all the weavers again
At the start of the game you get brought back by some who are probably under gms's control

[terse warren]

Which is relatively recent

But for generations and generations before the bugs have been using her silk for their own purposes

Ergo, she's been exploited

[vestal swan]

Mix of both

[steep talon]

dollar store glue

[lusty tree]

how does the silk get in them tho

[sterile jacinth]

She’s controlling them now

[slow olive]

They put the silk in themselves

[terse warren]

They injected it themselves and passed it down genetically

[vestal swan]

The silk in them is from bugs who had it inserted to try and achieve immortality and The descendants somehow kept it in them. That made them susceptible to The haunting

[sterile jacinth]

Silk is closely tied to soul and also the white ward injected silk into bugs shells to extend their life

[dusky bay]

Wait how does hornet take soul from dead bugs
Like the citadel bugs are obviously getting revived by the silk

[terse warren]

this doesn't remove the possibly millennia of exploitation beforehand that may have caused her some Silk issues???

[vestal swan]

She's basically just taking silk

[silver spire]

ppl what if instead of godhome, we have voidhome, and the pantheon of pharloom is every boss but voided

[steep talon]

and bugs that eat citadel bugs get silk in them. microplastic is an apt comparison

[sterile jacinth]

I’m not saying it doesn’t. I doubt she’s running out of silk tho I don’t see any evidence of that

[vestal swan]

You can't pass down microplastics with genetics that doesn't make any sense it's a really bad comparison

[slow olive]

Dunno about this one she was running out of silk in the void

[lusty tree]

wait but if silk is either getting passed down genetically or being inserted into bugs why do the bugs above the cradle have silk in them? is hornet converting soul into silk in her shell?

[steep talon]

i didnt say its genetic, i said some bugs eat citadel bugs and piligrims

[vestal swan]

It would be better to just say a blood disease that you can pass to your children, because you can also transmit a blood disease by ingesting it, usually

[sterile jacinth]

That is a different circumstance entirely

[terse warren]

Why else would she be rounding up Weaver descendants and why else would the game always hammer home how much silk lace needs

[vestal swan]

It's transmitted through genetics and being eaten so it can't be one or the other it has to be both

[terse warren]

Well, actually

[sterile jacinth]

Because they betrayed her

[terse warren]

Yes

[naive lake]

sorry chat but jus a bit confusion here, are weavers the only ones who produce silk or he only ones who can manipulate it

[terse warren]

This doesn't explain half of my message

[sterile jacinth]

I think produce

[slow olive]

Still makes it clear her silk isnt bottomless

[dusky bay]

Doesn't she take soul and convert it to sil-
Okay now I am confused

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s trying to say she’s artificial

[naive lake]

i see

[vestal swan]

That's the way she naturally produces her own yes, she's basically recycling

[sterile jacinth]

Well she’s kinda being overpowered by void I doubt silk production is on her mind

[steep talon]

produce. Grand reeds can manipulate it too, which hornet remarks must have took a lot of training

[lusty tree]

is silk just processed soul?

[terse warren]

Still doesn't explain why the game explicitly says "a lot of silk would be needed to keep her alive"

[slow olive]

Shes using almost all of it up to protect lace

[terse warren]

She takes the Soul from the Silk to turn it into her own Silk

[sterile jacinth]

It might just hint towards gms. Like foreshadowing

[dense willow]

Along with gms, yes I think produce

[naive lake]

okay so silk is very scarce on today's world unless any weaver is alive other than hornet

[sterile jacinth]

While being trapped in void. Again I don’t think anything besides that are much of a concern rn

[vestal swan]

Yeah but she can't take raw soul, there's jars somewhere I think and she doesn't absorb it like normal

[terse warren]

I don't really see how it does that, you already know there's a higher being by then

[steep talon]

noo, not the bilewater jars...

[terse warren]

Yes she can

She can use the soul of non-Haunted bugs to make silk

[dusky bay]

So
She either takes silk from shit that's revived with silk
Or soul and change it to silk
THEN HOW DOES THE VOID MASSES NOT GIVE SILK
IT IS VOIDED SILK
😭
-# and if you say it's voided silk voided enemies drop silk...

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but you don’t really know explicitly what
I don’t think it’s often you meet a being made of silk

[dense willow]

It suggests that they are behind her creation

[vestal swan]

What void mass isn't giving silk? The ones on the walls? I'd say that's just gameplay being bad or something

[lusty tree]

i think void decays silk, like how when you get hit with a void attack it takes away a bit of your silk

[terse warren]

I mean considering the game already told you they were her daughters I don't think you need any more suggestions

[terse warren]

Void masses don't give Silk

[dense willow]

I may be wrong but I think none give silk

[terse warren]

We quite literally see it happen yes

[dusky bay]

Voided enemies drop silk

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but not the masses in some of the rooms

[lusty tree]

i think thats soul being converted to silk

[dusky bay]

Like I understand why the steel soul boss doesn't drop silk
It's a freaking void ball with dead bodies
But how void masses that are made by voided silk not give any

[dusky bay]

how if they are dead

[vestal swan]

Gameplay error I don't know

[sterile jacinth]

They might not be silk. It could just be void

[slow olive]

Im guessing the void has sucked out all of it

[sterile jacinth]

To me it looked like silk covered in void

[terse warren]

The soul from the silk

[slow olive]

Getting hit by void attacks without the everbloom takes away silk from hornet

[steep talon]

well father of flame lanterns also contain burning silk, but it doesnt give hornet silk. honestly idk, gameplay stuff prolly

[limpid summit]

There’s probably some residual Silk in there, like how Lost Garmond could still think and speak

[lusty tree]

theyre drenched in void not completely void, if they were completely void they wouldn't give soul or silk at all

[terse warren]

Even with it actually methinks

[dusky bay]

Voided masses have silk
We are spinning in a circle

[limpid summit]

Otherwise probably gameplay imagine if every Voided enemy gave no silk

[sterile jacinth]

Aren’t those creatures?

[steep talon]

creatures?

[slow olive]

With the everbloom i think the silk the void attack takes away comes back iirc

[vestal swan]

I don't think there's any silk in the father of flame fight?

[limpid summit]

There’s not

[dusky bay]

Yea
In the citadel the silk revives the enemies to fight you

[sterile jacinth]

The wisps?
The lanterns don’t give silk for whatever reason

[slow olive]

I noticed it a couple of times after i had the everbloom

[vestal swan]

Wisps are living creatures although very strange in origin

[inner idol]

I forget where but I believe there's some dialogue in silksong that mentions how there an inseparable connection between Hornet's silk and soul, so I suspect any enemy that gives off soul could fill her silk meter (I think hornet is the one producing her silk, using the soul from other bugs)

[lusty tree]

cause theyre using silk as fuel

[dusky bay]

Okay that one is fully understandable tbh
You are hitting a totem-

The lantern ball don't give silk too

[vestal swan]

They're using sacrifices, that's the only thing suggested to fuel or control the wisps

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting. It’s weird how you don’t get silk from it tho

[vestal swan]

Willing sacrifices btw

[lusty tree]

because the silk is burning to create the wisps i just said the lanterns use silk as fuel

[steep talon]

i mean in the lanterns. the will of wisps are silk that's burning, you know transient life that hornet describes in wraith entry. the big ball with the dude in it definitely has silk at least, but still no silk from hittinh

[dusky bay]

I am just gonna believe it's pure void bec the name is void masses

[vestal swan]

Where are you getting this information?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that was my thought

[dense willow]

I think bc your just attacking the cage, not the silk within

[slow olive]

They use silk as fuel when hornet uses them i don't think we can apply that to the flame bugs too

[sterile jacinth]

I think the firebugs avoided gms control for so long because they burned her silk (and also that they’re a little crazy)

[dusky bay]

Also is the steel soul boss ever gonna be in godhome?

[slow olive]

Something else is happening in those thickets for sure

[lusty tree]

i saw it in a lore video that the red guys that summon wisps use the silk from the haunting as fuel to do so, i just thought the lanterns might be doing the same thing

[sterile jacinth]

I have my theories lol

[dense willow]

Probably just in steel soul, like how gpz is only there if you save zote

[limpid summit]

Maybe if you’re in steel soul like how GPZ was missable in a save where you kill Zote

[steep talon]

that could also be it, maybe

[limpid summit]

BRO

[vestal swan]

So no backup evidence got it

[dusky bay]

The wisp thicket is obviously a ritual for grimm
So maybe one day there will be an extra secret room where you can respawn grimm or something

[vestal swan]

A lore video is not evidence

[sterile jacinth]

Other than fire I didn’t see any Grimm related stuff

[dense willow]

I don't think obviously

[dusky bay]

It will be alr either way
Since godhome will probably be like the one in hk which is a dream
So if you die in it in steel soul mode you don't die die

[slow olive]

Im guessing that lore video said that because the lantern uses up silk to spawn the wisps when equipped by hornet

[vestal swan]

They are not using silk as fuel, the only thing stated like I said earlier is a willing sacrifice.

[lusty tree]

wait do the wisp summoner guys get corrupted by the void?

[slow olive]

But thats just when hornet uses it, there's nothing to indicate the flame bugs do the same thing

[dusky bay]

Grimm is all about fire
His minions you kill are fire
You spawn him with fire
Most of his attacks are fire

[dense willow]

It's certainly possible, but the fire is a different colour and other than being red, the wisp thicket people don't really look like grimkin

[vestal swan]

She has to fuel them with some kind of magic, it could really just be sold but the game is not going to make a separate soul meter for this

[dense willow]

Also they are missing the iconic masks

[vestal swan]

No it isn't?

[sterile jacinth]

I think that their territory used to include graymoor and then their leader was killed so they retreated to a corner where they built an effigy of their deceased and kind of drove themselves crazy. The reason theyre alive rn is because their fire burns silk. Graymoor is dead because its previous residents are dead

[dusky bay]

The wisp thicket dudes look like grimm's minions

[lusty tree]

i think the father of the flame was a grimmkin but then became its own thing

[sterile jacinth]

Without the masks. I just think they worship their dead fire wielding leader

[vestal swan]

What

[dusky bay]

The minions look like the dudes there

[steep talon]

i wouldnt say so. the dont even have masks that grimm uses to control the troupe

[lusty tree]

it says in the journal that there was the corpse of a bug in the giant lantern

maybe thats a grimmkin?

[dense willow]

He's about the fear of dead kingdoms which in game is represented by a red flame, quite different to the wisp thicket flames

[dusky bay]

The red cloak thingy on their head and mask really looks like the grimm troupe

[steep talon]

it's just a regular bug, most likely from greymoor

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. But I doubt that’s the thing anymore

[steep talon]

the dont have a mask

[vestal swan]

These fire weirdos are worshiping the fire that they found and are sacrificing themselves to, that has nothing to do with nightmares or the troupe

[slow olive]

"Wisps will spawn from the lantern and burn foes, at the cost of Silk." This is the tool description in game

[sterile jacinth]

I think that used to be a leader of graymoor and wisp thicket but then they died alongside graymoor and their followers retreated to a secluded corner of their kingdom

[vestal swan]

Yeah because hornet uses all of her spells with silk

[dusky bay]

Owh-
Either way the wisp thicket will probably be the area where you find grimm if he gets readded

[vestal swan]

That doesn't make sense

He's not related to them at all

[steep talon]

wouldnt bet on it. but it would be funny

[slow olive]

Could be some other stuff happening but it does plainly say hornet just uses her silk for it. Very weird stuff with the wisps....

[lusty tree]

ngl i dont think the wisp thicket is related to grimm in a significant way

[dense willow]

I could see it happening but I don't think it's likely

[sterile jacinth]

I agree. I think fire is the only real connection

[vestal swan]

The wisp thicket is not related to grimm in any way

[dense willow]

Also I doubt they would redo the Grimm troupe as cool as it would be

[slow olive]

Mhm its not even the same kind of fire right

[lusty tree]

but it might be related in a really stretched out way like some random bug found one of their lanterns and stole it or something idfk

[slow olive]

Grimm uses more of a nightmare fire, wisp thicket is all about real ass fire

Heck its even living flame if we base it on the wisps

[sterile jacinth]

And wisps. Which are said to be a creature

[dense willow]

I don't think regular bugs can even do that, tk needs grimmchild to do so

[dusky bay]

I do wonder then why are there people just
Praying and making a cult on the fire...
Yes ik there is a dead soul in the father of the flame but how da faq did it start and why do the bugs there look very different

[steep talon]

yee, nightmare flame is pink-ish. their fire is red

[slow olive]

There's something about those wisps man

[dense willow]

It's based on old folklore I think

[sterile jacinth]

My theory is that their kingdom used to include graymoor and their leader was a fire wielding bug but then they were killed so their followers retreated while their kingdom died. I think they built the effigy of their now dead leader and drove themselves a little mad

[steep talon]

they dont. they look like greymoor bugs, Single cloth draping over their head. these bugs were also shown in TC blog for greymoor

[slow olive]

The boss was a pushover lowkey but the design is so ominous and imposing too

[vestal swan]

Fire cultists
Found these wisp things
Start sacrificing things to them
Found a way to control them
???
Worshiping it to try and make it stronger
Profit

Grimm
Nightmare essence
Metaphorical flame
A rebirth ritual
Not something normal people can interact with
Nightmare heart already exists as a powerful real higher being
???

[sterile jacinth]

That boss is so annoying lol let me heal

[slow olive]

Grimm is cool and all but ill be glad if he doesnt show up in silksong

[steep talon]

normal bugs can summon the troupe. but yeah it probably doesnt go farther than that. If Knight didnt agree to grimms offer, he probably would have went himself to collect the essence

[vestal swan]

You don't even need to heal you can just hit each of the lanterns the same amount of times and then hit all of them at once to break them at the same time and then just go crazy on the center one

[lusty tree]

maybe the lanterns have small bugs in them and gms is trying to control them with silk but the fire is burning up the silk and creating the wisps?

[slow olive]

Ill be okay with a reference not a re-battle

[vestal swan]

Nothing suggests a normal bug can summon the troop, it takes a magical artifact for TK to do it and they're not normal either

[steep talon]

it would be funny though. Hornet: "argh, not this bum ass bitch again"

[sterile jacinth]

I think the fire bugs burned away the silk and that’s partially why they’re almost extinct and like completely driven away from graymoor

[dense willow]

Tk could only do it by dream nailing the nearby corpse

[lusty tree]

i dont think hornet knew grimm

[steep talon]

isnt it a lantern? And Knight can just hit it?

oh wait forgot about dream nailing the troupe bug

[dusky bay]

Owhhhh
Also so let me get this through
The thicket
Crows
Judges are the only non infected group (not counting bone bottom and songclave)

[slow olive]

The lantern only shows up if u dream nail the bug

[silk dirge]

judges are haunted

[dense willow]

Or possibly something different but still Grimm troupe, like an adult Grimmchild, with attacks reminiscent of Grimm but sufficiently different

[lusty tree]

do other kingdoms even have a dream nail or atleast something similar to it?

[sterile jacinth]

I think the craws bowed to the weavers/gms and that’s why they’re still alive

[steep talon]

i guess verdania corpses also arent, if you wanna count those

[sterile jacinth]

While the fire bugs Skarr Verdanias and Karak did not

[vestal swan]

Judges and flies don't really count because they're kind of born and bred as slaves to their job

[dusky bay]

The biggest hint that the crows are the only group who dye themselves black to not get voided

[vestal swan]

They don't have to be haunted they're stuck in a cycle

[slow olive]

A tool would be neat yea but i doubt hornet's gonna get a living being as a tool since she has to craft stuff

[sterile jacinth]

I just think they bowed to the weavers/gms so there wasn’t a need to infect them

[dense willow]

That is another reason I doubt we will see the Grimm troupe, they are part of the nightmare realm, which is related to the dream realm, but to my knowledge, we don't see any signs of essence in pharloom

But that might just be BC hornet doesn't have the dream nail

[dense willow]

I meant as a boss

[steep talon]

Craws similarity to pinstress moveset is a bit strange isnt it?

[dense willow]

Bc Grimm child would replace Grimm after the ritual

[vestal swan]

Pinstresses might be similar bird creatures yes

[lusty tree]

soul is related to dream essence in a way and silk is related to silk so maybe hornet can use silk to maybe sneak into the dream realm or smth?

[dusky bay]

I swear after returning into the memorium I noticed the bug bodies in the back
The room with one of the first fly you meet in verdania but in the background
And the lilypads
Also a random room with rocks breaking it

[sterile jacinth]

Oooh you’re right. Maybe they could have been related at some point but that connection died with the pinstress order

[sterile jacinth]

Theres verdanian things in the memorium???

[dusky bay]

That's weird to say bec pintresses didn't and they probably didn't bow in gms's control...

[dense willow]

I think the pintstresses might be from Bilewater, BC the look a lot like the stiltskins (any differences can be BC of the toxification), they have similar movements, and we see the third one there

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s why they’re all dead

[slow olive]

Oh! I dunno about a grimmchild tbh, could be cool if a grimm troupe bug would bea miniboss and hornet killing them would make the troupe arriving to pharloom possible but we still wont get a dream nail

[lusty tree]

theres verdanian bugs in moss grotto

[steep talon]

maybe. Craws are close to bilewater, and I assumed that's where pinstresses originated maybe. But it's hard to tell, cause pinstresses are really fucking old. Like old old

[sterile jacinth]

??? Where?

[slow olive]

Do u mean the tiny flying ones

[dense willow]

It's more that there are moss groto bugs in verdania

[steep talon]

those and there are some clovers, i believe

[lusty tree]

look closely and you will see small white bugs flying near the water

smaller versions of the bugs in lost verdania

[sterile jacinth]

I think they were spread out or nomadic. They could have spread their influence pretty far

[vestal swan]

I mean if there's clean water those things are probably going to show up

[dense willow]

Oh I see

[slow olive]

The tiny glowing insects flying above the water in some areas in moss grotto

[steep talon]

ah yeah, that's true

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting. Could be convergent evolution. Rip Verdania

[dusky bay]

There is a thing that tells you they lost verdania (haha lost verdania laugh!!)
But really you can see the dead bugs on the ground when you enter

[sterile jacinth]

Verdania: destined to forget

[steep talon]

yeah, their exhibit didnt work out

rip

[lusty tree]

ngl i think verdania was the biggest kingdom in pharloom before it got pushed back all the way to greymoor

[sterile jacinth]

It died too fast I think

[slow olive]

Im guessing the bugs were too feisty?

[steep talon]

it's okay though Hornet can bring it back by burying the gays in the next update

[sterile jacinth]

I think craw lake was controlled by… the craws lmao. I think it used to be a lot more green before the haunting

[dusky bay]

But yea if you actually enter the area in the far right of the momoruim you will see the leaf bugs that fly and throw themselves on the ground dead on the floor

[slow olive]

Those jumpy dudes in lost verdania definitely couldve wrecked havok in memorium

[sterile jacinth]

They didn’t accept the citadel and died as a result

[dense willow]

Wow, I didn't notice that that's really cool

[lusty tree]

are craws even intelligent? theyre treated as actual mindless crows by other bugs

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting

[lusty tree]

and the craw court can barely write

[dense willow]

The craw court would suggest so

[steep talon]

probably related to green princes not being alive or palestag not being alive. It's a toss up, cause the exhibit isnt any different from other ones. There's not a lot of reason it could have failed this bad

[sterile jacinth]

They hold rosaries. And they put you on trial

[sterile jacinth]

Palestag is a legend manifest. Or that’s the implication

[lusty tree]

crows irl hoard stuff too

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think irl crows hold you on trial lol

[slow olive]

They dont summon u to a trial tho

[edgy nebula]

They do

[lusty tree]

they remember faces and tell other crows about you if you piss them off

[sterile jacinth]

Well they don’t give you a written summon

[lusty tree]

that can count as being put on trial i think

[dense willow]

I may be misremembering, but didn't the green prince say he and his partner successfully hunted it, and that's what marked them as rulers?

[edgy nebula]

There’s a phenomenon irl where crows kill other crows whove wronged them

[dusky bay]

I noticed it when I was doing steel soul mode and speed run 100% for the spool
I saw them dead on the ground 😭

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know I think it’s unclear haha

[slow olive]

Mhm but i think what skarr is implying is that everything in lost verdania is in the memory of the green prince

[steep talon]

prolly, but who knows why else verdania exhibit failed. It doesnt make much sense to me that it was princes doing. And I dont think memorium management fucked it up that badly. There is a meta explanation for it, as in TC didnt want to show verdania fully so people searched for it potentially, but who knows

[dusky bay]

Eco system

[slow olive]

So he could be just adding embellishments to his palestag hunting story which manifested in lost verdania

[dense willow]

Yeah, they hold grudges, it's cool that team Cherry take inspiration from nature for stuff like that

[sterile jacinth]

I think it died too fast. Only someone who is desperate would offer their soul like that. Once one prince died the others will did and I think that made the death of the kingdom that much faster

[steep talon]

more like echo system if it's in memorium. ayoooo high five

[dense willow]

It could be that, like green prince, they members of verdania no longer wanted to live without one of their lords

[dusky bay]

😭 high five-

[dusky bay]

Gay prince

[edgy nebula]

The green princes were cursed, which could be a reason as to why verdania got completely destroyed

[slow olive]

Could also just be the wildlife of verdania doesnt do well in captivity

[sterile jacinth]

My theory with the lands is that their longevity is connected to a powerful bug nearby and if that bug dies their land does too (Karmelita, khann, father of flame,)

[steep talon]

it is somehow doing better than current day verdania. But it still failed somehow

[sterile jacinth]

I think Hornet says the whole memorium is in vain because it shouldn’t exist

[dusky bay]

For whole verdania might bec it was radied
like The area was closed off and broken when you come back in act3
So this might mean it died a while ago

[steep talon]

like current day verdania is a ruin, no water, no plants. No nothing it's just a cave

[slow olive]

I thought khann died because the karak area was already losing water

[lusty tree]

but in verdanias case there were two bugs

[edgy nebula]

Gms killed him by taking the water, presumably

[sterile jacinth]

It might be both. Kahnn died alongside his kingdom

[steep talon]

probably not

[dusky bay]

Atleast when you kill the dude a flower grows...it will be revived slowly...

[edgy nebula]

Edited it

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah and once one died the other lost his will to live completly so it just spiraled

[steep talon]

oh by taking water. still probably not

[fading shard]

so what's the discussion of rn

[lusty tree]

"two died but only one stopped breathing" ahh💔💔

[fading shard]

Gms is such an jackass

[dusky bay]

No it's the citadel being the finest and greatest people ever
And closing the great fountain that's in the tower which was probably the main source of coral fields

[edgy nebula]

Khann died before the citadel existed, we know because the citadel asked nyleth to let pilgrims pass by, through the blasted steps, when if khann were alive he’d likely just kill them

[steep talon]

verdania and memorium, kinda

[slow olive]

The coral tower didnt seem like a kingdom that went to ruin because of outright destruction by enemy attacj, it seemed like the soldiers of khann entombed him like that and they all just let the sand and lack of water freeze them in spot like that

[sterile jacinth]

All the lush places in Pharloom are influenced by some kind of more powerful bug and the ones that are now dead have dead leaders

[fading shard]

khan was definetely killed off alongside his kingdom by gms

[sterile jacinth]

(Moss grotto has Eva who I guess was helping it avoid the haunting)

[dusky bay]

when was this ever said wh

[fading shard]

she did conquer and screw over the civilizations

[steep talon]

doesnt Khann says last one against pale might?

[edgy nebula]

Last to resist because karmelita/nyleth never fought against gms

[simple hedge]

They simply resisted the silk

[fading shard]

man this is why the pale king is so much better, not only does he have free health care and benches he respected the already existing tribes

Like grandm other silk should have learned a thing or two from him

[steep talon]

huh, weird. could have sworn Karmellita also resisted citadel

[dusky bay]

No?? Kamrelita fought the haunting
Her voice protected them from gms and grouped them

[lusty tree]

why are pale beings all jackasses?

[fading shard]

karmelita resisted against gms

[sterile jacinth]

Karmelita helped the Skarr resist the silk. With her being weak they’ve fallen to the haunting. With her death the far fields will die too

[edgy nebula]

All she says is that she resisted the haunting, she never fought against gms or the citadel directly

[fading shard]

she used her voice to protect her people

from grand mother silk

And defend her people for as long as she could

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think they caused as much of an issue as Kahnn did so I think gms put her efforts elsewhere

[steep talon]

she united all the skarr tribes to... just to have a sick ass concert I guess?

[simple hedge]

Oh, yes. Hornet dooms the Skarr by finally killing their leader, but at least she also gets rid of the silk. Hopefully a new Skarr rises up to return them to glory

[sterile jacinth]

Hornet says it will probably take generations to regrow the fields

But it’s bugs like you (gilly) who will sow the first seeds

[sterile jacinth]

Also they already fell to the haunting by this point. Karmelita is too weak and old

[steep talon]

but also sentinels might have been the ones fighting Khann, Skarrs and Verdanians. At least 12th architects hints at it. Which also makes pinstresses really really old. And weavers might have been present. Though not sure if GMS was asleep

[sterile jacinth]

I think it would be hard to keep a higher being asleep if you’re constantly being attacked by other kingdoms. Either way works I think

[slow olive]

Huh why does the wiki say karmelita resisting the will of GMS means the Haunting started in her youth

[sterile jacinth]

It might have I dunno

[simple hedge]

I'm assuming GMS is who led the charge against the other kingdoms. The Weavers may have been there but they were not in charge yet

[sterile jacinth]

I think this makes sense

[slow olive]

By that interpretation it would mean the skarrs weren't a kingdom right when GMS arrived in Pharloom, but long after when she was already put to slumber

[steep talon]

karmellita united skarr tribes in her youth

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is a higher being so has a desire to control. Weavers are not. Though they did some horrible things I don’t think it would make sense for them to kill all the other kingdoms

[sterile jacinth]

Gms could have been trying to control bugs for awhile and weavers more temporarily stopped it

[slow olive]

Well yea but the wiki is basically saying that in her youth was right around when the Haunting started

[simple hedge]

Tho they are created by GMS kinda in her image. It is possible she passed down her urge to lead and control. This does seem unlikely tho since they didn't really clash with PK very hard

[sterile jacinth]

Does that mean the Skarr kingdom is younger than the Karak? Or Verdania

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah those are my thoughts

[slow olive]

This is what im getting based on how the wiki interpeted the snail shaman dialogue regarding karmelita

[simple hedge]

I don't think that's what the wiki is saying

I think it's saying the haunting started when Karmelita was in her prime, not her youth

[steep talon]

oh yeah. "When Haunting started" is a weird way to phrase it

[sterile jacinth]

I didn’t think about that. I kinda just assumed they were all vaguely at the same time

[slow olive]

Ok but still that means skarrs werent prominent during the time that GMS was awake

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder why the memorium doesn’t represent wisp thicket

[simple hedge]

That's fair. I realized what I said means nothing in this convo

It does sound like GMS ignored them while she was awake

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe they were more isolated tribes

[slow olive]

The skarrs were united by karmelita's voice and protected by it during the haunting

[steep talon]

"In youth, her voice united the wild tribes. Gave them the strength to resist the pale monarch's will."

that's the quote they are reffing. It doesnt mention anything of the haunting. Gilly mentions the haunting and we know that Haunting is a very recent occuerence

[slow olive]

That does show how long the haunting has been going on of karm is already so old when hornet arrives in pharloom

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe the fire burning silk scared them off enough for them to try to get rid of it etirely

[simple hedge]

united. Yes they were probably just a species, possibly fighting each other, then Karmelita showed up and created a singular tribe and kingdom.

[steep talon]

so yeah, i mean if someone is working on wiki, we could just ask them to change that line. Not a big deal

[slow olive]

Yea this is why i said the wiki's interpretation of that snail shaman quote

[sterile jacinth]

The mountains of bug corpses I think implies that

[slow olive]

But that does make me wonder why there's dialoge that the haunting is a recent event

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe it’s gotten worse

[simple hedge]

Well it could be relatively recently compared to the life of Pharloom

[slow olive]

That is true i guess

It could still be possible that the old hearts' rules weren't at the same time

[steep talon]

again, Haunting is very recent. What Karm did was to give her subjects strength to resist monarch's will. There is no haunting at play here. Later, when haunting actually started, her song or skarrs being used to Karm's song allowed them to be less affected by it, but still haunted

[simple hedge]

the snail shaman quote probably should be taken in two parts. In her youth she united them, then later in her life the haunting started and her voice repelled the haunting. She's obviously a long-lived bug so that could've been a long time between the uniting and the haunting

[sterile jacinth]

That’s kinda what I was thinking

[steep talon]

there is no mention of haunting in snail shaman quote. It's gilly that mentions it

[simple hedge]

And it's also possible that the Pale Monarch's will isn't the haunting, but the sheer force of her and the citadel

[lusty tree]

wait which kingdoms were native to pharloom in the first place?

[simple hedge]

It says "Pale Monarch's will" which could be GMS's actual will and military might or her silk causing the haunting

[sterile jacinth]

I think a lot of them
Karak
Verdania
Wisp thicket
The citadel (and weavers)
Nyleth (isn’t a tribe but still a powerful bug)
Stiltkin
The craw
The Skarr

[slow olive]

Verdania, the karak kingdom, and the skarrs

[edgy barn]

The old hearts (Karak, Skarrs, Verdania and Shellwood) as well as the Stilkin in what is now bilewater

[steep talon]

if it was the haunting, they probably would have said the haunting. And haunting is a more recent occurence, it couldnt have been happening back then

[frosty gate]

What's the topic?

[slow olive]

The citadel technically isnt a native power tho

[steep talon]

wiki line for Karmelita being weird

[edgy barn]

I wouldn´t call the weavers native as they were created by GMS. who presumably isn´t.

[sterile jacinth]

Is gms not native?

[frosty gate]

We don't know much about the Craw tho

[sterile jacinth]

True

[slow olive]

GMS came to pharloom

[frosty gate]

Yesn't

[sterile jacinth]

We don’t see evidence of them anywhere else

[simple hedge]

Karak, Verdania, Nyleth, Skarr, Craw, Stiltkin, Wisp Thicket. GMS is a foreign power basically

[slow olive]

Native by being there for a long time i guess lol

[sterile jacinth]

Alright cool good to know

Nyleth technically doesn’t have a tribe but she did rule shellwood before sister splinter presumably killed her and infected it

[frosty gate]

Yeah but they're not counted as one of the powers before GMS and Verdania doesn't seem to mention them despite being right next door.

[edgy barn]

I won´t tolerate that false murder accusation agaisnt Sister Splinter. Nyleth isn´t even dead.

[simple hedge]

The Craws aren't a strong force tho. They're pests compared to the citadel

[slow olive]

The game doesnt say how nyleth got interred into a shrine right

[sterile jacinth]

Why would Verdania mention them?
I also think the craw were too small to worry about and submitted to the citadels rule

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was built to honor her

[sterile jacinth]

Yes she is 😭

[slow olive]

But im assuming her body has to be there coz thats where we have to play the elegy of the deep

[edgy barn]

Every other old heart is alive and both the shamans and Seth speak of her as if she were.

[slow olive]

And her heart grows out from it after the fight

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but I don’t think the fountain is her

[frosty gate]

If you had neighbors, you would make at least a mention of them.
Also what did the Craw even do for the Citadel?

[sterile jacinth]

I think they were just like we won’t resist you and the citadel was like ok works with us

[slow olive]

Well yea its a shrine

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt they were bad neighbors. I think they were just neighbors

[frosty gate]

Lemme check the info I'm really against the idea of them being that old but I need reasons to back the hunch

[slow olive]

But what im saying is why is her body under that shrine, or a part of her at least

[simple hedge]

Shrine was built for her while she was still alive. She is probably not underneath it, it is just a symbol of her. Shellwood itself is her body

[sterile jacinth]

Could be. We don’t really see it anywhere else

[sterile jacinth]

Which is being infected by sister splinter

[edgy barn]

Keep in mind that Nyleth is technically all of shellwood. the shrine is probably just where her presence is strongest.

[slow olive]

But she has a body that we fight against, isnt that like a past memory?

So she had that body in the past?

[steep talon]

huh?

[sterile jacinth]

I think that part is dead. She’s probably lost a lot of power

[lusty tree]

i think the shrine is where she spread into all of shellwood from

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s implied that she and the creatures she created are a parasite

[simple hedge]

yeah she is the reason why Shellwood creatures are hostile

[slow olive]

Who

[edgy barn]

They aren´t parasites, just foreigners

[edgy barn]

no she is not

[slow olive]

Sister splinter?

[edgy barn]

Sister Splinter does not have that kind of power.

[lusty tree]

why was nyleth even hostile to begin with?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think her and Nyleth got along. I also think they’re leeching off of shellwoods strength

[slow olive]

The shellwood creatures are hostile because nyleth isnt around anymore i thought

[calm chasm]

Are all of the Weavers female? They mention each other as "sisters" always

[sterile jacinth]

She’s not. She let pilgrims through

[simple hedge]

Likely because you are here to steal her power

[lusty tree]

yeah makes sense

[steep talon]

sister does mention nyleth. But just that she's sleeping. I think Sister just became dominant power when Nyleth started growing weak

[simple hedge]

No, but Her and her kin were threatening Shellwood, the creatures must've had to adapt to protect themselves, otherwise they would've been destroyed, no?

[calm chasm]

Is Nyleth like the Unn situation

[lusty tree]

female weavers are "sisters" while males are "spiders"

[slow olive]

Wonder what caused nyleth to weaken

[edgy barn]

Sister Splinter has a needolin line that reads "Other. Other, sleeping deep". I think is more likely that Splinter and her children arrived after Nyleth weakened.

[sterile jacinth]

That makes sense. I still doubt they’d get along lol

[steep talon]

they seem to be pretty okay with each other. Considering there are gauntlests with Splinterbarks and Flowers

[simple hedge]

Nyleth would've seen Sister Splinter as a threat to all of Shellwood and destroyed her ofc

[sterile jacinth]

That was my thought

[slow olive]

The citadel despite begrudgingly would want nyleth to still be active if they wanted more pilgrims to feed to the citadel so it would be in their best interest to take care of her at least

[lusty tree]

isnt sister splinter just an overgrown stickbug?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think Nyleth is very intelligent, at least compared to other more powerful bugs

[simple hedge]

Yes, but now that Nyleth is gone she dominates Shellwood

[lusty tree]

dominated* shes dead now

[edgy barn]

She is the matriarch

[sterile jacinth]

And as a result makes it incredibly dangerous for pilgrims

[simple hedge]

True, Hornet fixes that problem

[steep talon]

fucked up that there used to be more Splinters

what the hell even happened to them i wonder

[sterile jacinth]

There are other stick bugs

Sister splinter Is just the most powerful

[edgy barn]

Yes her children, but she has another line that reads "Sisters, sisters, so long gone"

[steep talon]

oooh, yeah that makes sense. I was thinking there were multiple giant ass stickbugs roaming around

[brave trail]

question, what are the whispering vaults for?

[slow olive]

Record keeping

[sterile jacinth]

Information

[simple hedge]

Possibly, considering the needolin dialogue

[slow olive]

Songs and stuff kept secret

[steep talon]

ohh wait right. The smaller ones she refers to as children

[lusty tree]

prayers

[steep talon]

fucking hell, so there were multiple giant ass stick bugs

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe sister splinter killed them like how some sharks or fish do

[slow olive]

Im guessing vaultkeepers used to record and instruct how to sing the song used to put gms to sleep before the cogwork core got made by the architects

[simple hedge]

Yeah I was thinking that if a splinter gets too strong Sister Splinter destroys it to prevent it from threatening her rule

[steep talon]

seems a bit weird, but possible i suppose

[sterile jacinth]

Some of the psalm cylinders are guides for the choir

[slow olive]

Some theorize this is her mocking the weavers, they call each other sisters and now theyre all gone or soemthing like that

[edgy barn]

Considering the splinters are foreign, maybe their homeland suffered some sort of cataclysm and the sister splinter we see managed to escape and eventually arrived at shellwood.

[steep talon]

haha, bruh. Now that's petty

[steep talon]

steek bugg

[slow olive]

It could also be why she calls herself sister splinter too

Putting herself in their place

[sterile jacinth]

Crazy how many lands now are just dead because of the haunting or the citadel

[edgy barn]

is splinter even smart enough to understand such concepts?

[obsidian kelp]

That makes sense because when I heard the term “sister” my mind immediately went to a convent of nuns so there’s a good possibility she’s mocking the religious organization of the citadel

[lusty tree]

pale beings just kill

[slow olive]

I mean she isnt a lesser bug it seems

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think necessary. They want control over other bugs. Ines that won’t submit die

Pale king didn’t kill everyone lol

[obsidian kelp]

She commands enough respect to have these stick bugs attack you so I would say she can

[slow olive]

Mhm shes an annoying one to fight too

[frosty gate]

"As Hornet ascends from the foundations of Pharloom towards the citadel at its crest, she may pass through the wasted caverns of Greymoor. The misted fields and dilapidated towers are now infested with Crawbugs, devious nesting types, and the former tenders of the land have become haunted."

This is really old Official Info, but it's what I got.
It just doesn't feel like they've been there since the beggining of Pharloom, they might've gotten there after, but before the haunting

[sterile jacinth]

I still think she’s a lesser bug. Like Karmelita or Kahnn. She’s just the most powerful of the sticks so they listen to her

[lusty tree]

but gms specifically drove other kingdoms away and killed their inhabitants, for example verdania

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting

[obsidian kelp]

Yeah exactly

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah they wouldn’t listen to her so she killed them

[slow olive]

Shes definitely not in karmelita's level

[sterile jacinth]

Similar to. Not the same but like a similar kind of power

[frosty gate]

Very old info offical from TC, but we don't know if it changed

[edgy barn]

in the final game there are no craws in the towers. they are in opposite extremes of greymoor.

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re residents of craw lake and the citadel has the towers for their workers

[frosty gate]

I just wonder what came first, the Craws or the City?

We have no proof they're old

[sterile jacinth]

What city?

The windmills?

[slow olive]

Does the building in craw lake look like a building that craws could build tho?

[steep talon]

that sentence mentions misted fields and towers. Then it mentions crawbugs and regular greymoorians. So greymorians in towers, crawbugs in fields. Although maybe this sentence didnt need to be analyzed this much

[sterile jacinth]

We don’t really see that kind of architecture anywhere else so I’d think so

[lusty tree]

did the craws devolve from other bugs or did other bugs evolve from craws?

[frosty gate]

The Citadel itself

[edgy barn]

Greymoor together with Sinner's Road used to grow crops before the citadel came around. It would make sense for the craws to have been around back then given their inspiration.

[sterile jacinth]

My thought is the craws came first and just allied themselves with the citadel so they weren’t utterly obliterated

[slow olive]

Are they allied with the citadel? They dont seem to do anything that would be of help to the citadel

[sterile jacinth]

They aren’t opposing it. I think it was kinda like join or die and they decided to join

[slow olive]

Not like the other bugs in greymoor being tasked to collect silk falling from the sky and stuff

[frosty gate]

But what do they do?
GMS had a "Cooperate or Die" policy and they're not doing either.

[edgy barn]

are there any signs of such alliance? keep in mind that craw lake is completely out of the way of any citadel business, meaning they could have just decided they were not worth effort.

[slow olive]

Hmm i dunno about that, the whole schtick of the citadel is you must have a purpose else die

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know exactly what they do. But they obviously don’t cause any issues for the citadel at least so they leave them alone

[frosty gate]

The only one's similar are the Skarr, but the Skarr are resisting and eventually die

[sterile jacinth]

They drop rosaries

[lusty tree]

i dont think the craws are worth controlling in gms's eyes, they are birds

bird bugs

[edgy barn]

ehh a lot of wild animals are haunted.

[slow olive]

Craws seem to just like collecting them based on the craw nest u can get for your bellhome

[sterile jacinth]

I think either they’re allies with the citadel or don’t cause enough of an issue to try to control

[edgy barn]

birds like shiny things

[sterile jacinth]

I still think they’re intelligent enough to know what they mean

[steep talon]

they are not. Although this does bring up an interesting point. If they were a nuisance to new citadel order, why didnt citadel just get rid of them? And if they came later, why do they have pinstresses moveset? Pinstresses are omega ancient, after all. Citadel did kinda fought with them, we can see they tried to make an enclosure for craws in memorium

[frosty gate]

They just like Shiny things

[edgy barn]

I agree they are smart enough. I do not think they would care.

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt they caused enough of a problem to be an issue so they were just ignored

[slow olive]

They are but that isnt enough to imply theyre allied with the citadel tho

[frosty gate]

I think the Craws just evolved ngl

[sterile jacinth]

True

[frosty gate]

Maybe the Craws are just the Juniors but eventually, as the ages passed, they evolved into the others

[slow olive]

The fact that the bartender in halfhome makes a scarecraw kinda implies theyre more of a pest type

[frosty gate]

They are pests

[sterile jacinth]

That’s also true

Maybe the citadel just has more important things to worry about

[frosty gate]

I think they just evolved after Pharloom started dying

[slow olive]

Maybe just the little ones are

[steep talon]

a pest that can wield a sword. what a nightmare

[sterile jacinth]

Crows are good at adapting. That could be true

[slow olive]

The big ones stay close to their craw lake area

[frosty gate]

If they were there from the beggining they were only the little ones

[edgy barn]

tbf the scarecraw is made out of craw pelts. that's the equivalent of putting a human skin patchwork in front of your house, I would want to stay away too.

[sterile jacinth]

I’m thinking they learned from the pinstresses and kinda kept to themselves cause they saw what happened to everyone else who resisted

[slow olive]

Crawfather's not gonna like that one

[lusty tree]

good thing hes dead

[slow olive]

Halfhome bartender is lucky that hornet was the first bug crawfather summoned lol

[frosty gate]

When even did the Pinstresses die

[sterile jacinth]

Omg yea

[frosty gate]

Like they just died one day

[sterile jacinth]

I think they were one of the first to fall to gms

[frosty gate]

Which makes me wonder, what the hell was there before

[sterile jacinth]

Graymoor? Wisp thicket I think

[shell plume]

act 3

[edgy barn]

the pintresses taught their skills to the sentinel robots. wouldn't gms have already been put to sleep by the time those were made?

[slow olive]

Most got killed by the citadel so they died in the height of the citadel most likely

[edgy barn]

farmlands actually

[sterile jacinth]

It could have just been modeled after that

[sterile jacinth]

Could have been both

[frosty gate]

I mean yes, but where do the Pinstresses come from

They resisted the citadel

And GMS

[slow olive]

Dont remember the game saying where they came from

[lusty tree]

i think the pintresses were literally used to create the sentinel robots

[frosty gate]

They know gms That's no easy feat

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know

[lusty tree]

they were turned into silk flies and used to make the sentinels

[slow olive]

They couldve arrived in pharloom when gms was already asleep?

[frosty gate]

They know the truth of the land, it can't be

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt it. We see hardly any evidence of them

I think they’re all gone because of gms

[slow olive]

Mustve found out about it making it the reason why the citadel tried to wipe them out

[edgy nebula]

possibly from the stilkin

[sterile jacinth]

Ooooh trueee

[edgy barn]

even if that were the case, I am pretty sure both pinstress and seamstress speak always of the citadel, not the pale monarch

[edgy barn]

eh, the stilkin have all black bodies while the pinstresses we have seen have the clear segmented stomachs most bugs have.

black skin and long noses is not enough proof otherwise you are saying Sharpe is a stilkin too.

[frosty gate]

No common bug knows about GMS, is probably the hardest thing to do in life entirely.

[steep talon]

seamstress mentions that Hornet is smart for figuring that there's something above citadel controlling everything

[slow olive]

Where does it say the pinstresses know about gms btw

Oh

[slow olive]

The pinstress order dont seem to be common bugs at least

[steep talon]

"It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now.
Hornet: There is another alive in this kingdom that shares my nature, or some part of it. I've seen Silk similar to my own. It snares the shells of those upon the roads.
I've seen it wrap them, possess them whole. There is will within that thread, one that seems to come from somewhere above us. The Citadel...
Hmmmm... Good, sharp sight you've got."

not directly stated, but I think it's implied that seamstress is like: "oh shit, she know about GMS"

[edgy barn]

Just a moment dear, before you scurry off!
I'm loath to spoil the surprise, but curiosity begs me to ask. Do you know why they pursue you? Those Citadel bugs?
Hornet: I have seen their Citadel and its state, and I have strong suspicion...
They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell. Not for themselves but for the one atop it all.
Ahh ha! Truth, no doubt! In Pharloom, yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure, to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked.
It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now.
Hornet: The one atop this kingdom... They share my nature, or some part of it. I've seen their Silk at work, in vast scale.
It snares the shells of those upon the roads, and guides with false life the many hollowed husks left to lapse.
Hmm... You've looked far towards the truth of it. Closer even than I'd dare to dig. But then you're clearly of the countenance to be coping with such heady stuff...
Now! It's past time you were going! Your style and your Silk sure are fine, but stay too long and you'll only be trouble for me!

[sterile jacinth]

That would explain why they’re all dead

[slow olive]

I dunno sounds like she doesnt know about GMS but does sense something fishy going on in the citadel

[nimble kayak]

Question, is the order in which the Shamans give hints towards the old hearts randomized, or is it the same every time?

[edgy barn]

"Closer that even I'd dare to dig"

[slow olive]

I thought there was dialogue outright saying she knows of GMS

[steep talon]

yee, that could be also be it

[hidden crater]

when i first went to do the court of craws I was like "shit they're pressing charges against me for the scarecraw arent they" but then realized they're punishing me for my crimes because I'm the cause of the end of their land

[nimble kayak]

?

[slow olive]

Still does show the pinstresses didnt like what the citadel was cooking and became curious of their secrets

Gives more motive for the citadel to attempt wiping them out after getting their help

[frosty gate]

What even is the order's goal

[steep talon]

pretty sure it's Khann, Karm, Nyleth always

[hidden crater]

they're trying so hard to be like the nail masters

[nimble kayak]

Really? I got Karm, Nyleth, Khann

[steep talon]

huh, funky

[slow olive]

Not sure about a goal exactly, they just seem to be masters of the pin

[hidden crater]

i wonder, do the hearts order actually change if you took green princes heart?

[edgy barn]

Seamstress has different dialogue if you have met Lace at the choral chambers. She outright says that what Hornet discovered is deeper than even she has dared to dig.

[nimble kayak]

If you have 3 hearts (one of those being the Prince) it just stops showing the marker for the last one

[slow olive]

Nomadic sisterhood of pin masters, finds a kingdom that takes interest in their skills, teaches them gladly, gets betrayed by said kingdom and gets almost wiped out

[steep talon]

yee. That does seem pretty weird huh? If they werent in citadel before, why are sentinels the way they are. Why does Lace know how to do the needle strike for wanderers. Weird stuff

[hidden crater]

the fact that nyleth nearly looks like shes bald 😭

[edgy barn]

Pins are a traditional weapon of pharloom. it would be kind of weird for the pinstress order to not have formed there

[slow olive]

Oh true

Maybe not nomadic then

[edgy barn]

They were in the citadel, Pinstress tell us they taught them their skills. They just didn't know about GMS.

[slow olive]

Them being related to the stilkin is a neat theory tho

[frosty gate]

The Pinstress were also apparently "Once renown in Pharloom"

[twin dragon]

Why do people keep thinking that gms was ruling pharloom when the citadel was built

it pmo

[frosty gate]

Because the Weavers literally call her "The True Ruler"

She had to rule something

[twin dragon]

Numerous times it was stated that the citadel was built to keep her asleep

Plus the literal fucking sigil is her cocoon

If she'd rule anything, it would've been pre-betrayal pharloom

[slow olive]

Gms ruled pharloom before the weavers uprising and built citadel

Gms being imprisoned by the weavers and put to sleep doesnt negate that she originally ruled pharloom

[frosty gate]

I don't argue against it, I don't think no one does.
While the citadel was being built she ruled, after it was done, not so much

But there had to be something in the Citadel

[steep talon]

because my month long misinformation campaign worked a little too well

[twin dragon]

Meeeh how would she allow that lmao

[edgy barn]

"True ruler all along" is just a dumb plot point. GMS still technically being the real ruler and responsible for everything despite being asleep and not doing anything is the idea.

[twin dragon]

She expells her waking will through the haunting

[slow olive]

Even the conductors who were left behind by the weavers to take over the citadel admit that Gms is still ultimately the ruler above them

[edgy barn]

True ruler all along applies before the haunting.

[slow olive]

The haunting began because the conductors suck at their jobs or smth

[twin dragon]

Yeah, that's what im saying

[frosty gate]

Under the guise of a "Monument in her honor" though I've got no proof of that.

[twin dragon]

Weavers knew her waking couldn't be prevented for too long

[edgy barn]

I agree with you, I just think is dumb.

[twin dragon]

how so?

[slow olive]

Its why they ran off

Left the conductors to get all haunted by gms silk

[hidden crater]

apparently someone made a discovery about a dead conductor in the blasted steps

[frosty gate]

I bet that's Romino on god

[twin dragon]

Also im pretty sure how "true ruler all along" implies not that she's been ruling pharloom ALWAYS, but the fact that she's the one and original one before being usurped

[edgy nebula]

just a mantle, we dont see the body

[frosty gate]

That's guy knew it was gonna go down

[frosty gate]

It probably means that they could never get rid of her influence if they didn't kill her

[twin dragon]

Bluddy blud tried to sneak a conductor costume into the citadel and got brutalized by judges

[twin dragon]

Yeah, she was always involved in something

[edgy nebula]

all known conductors are accounted for which is nice

[twin dragon]

As her power was just too big