sk-lore

[gritty fractal]

its odd they dont even get referred to by name ANYWHERE in game as far as i know
we just know their name because of datamining i think?

[harsh jacinth]

We don't know for sure, but it seems unlikely he wasn't at least a little aware given the Moth Tribe had a statue of her (or at least one, we don't know if there were other idols or effigys they may have destroyed)
Regardless, whether he knew or not, whether he encouraged the Moth Tribe to follow him or if they just did so of their own accord, that doesn't really belie the tragedy of the Radiance
Yes, obviously it's retaliation/solution wasn't good, but it's not easy to say that it was justifiable to nearly forget about it entirely
And Grand Mother Silk has that same kind of tragic edge to her- yes, nothing she does in the game's current events are justified, and we don't know the full story of what happened between her and the Weavers, but it seems likely she genuinely cared about them and they ended up betraying her

[pure belfry]

are these lumabug/soul flies these little silk bugs that fly out of enemies when you kill them? I noticed it in Cogwork Core. Idk if it happens to enemies elsewhere.

[whole marsh]

Yes, they fly out of the robots, because they power them.

[dire lynx]

im not saying the situation isnt unfortunate, im just sick of people who think PK was imperialitic scum. it appears i mistook your stance

[harsh jacinth]

Yes, they are
In the Whiteward, you find a room with a nasty looking machine and a hidden room nearby filled to the brim with corpses; when bugs began to die (which was looked down upon in Pharloom), they would have the silk within them extracted and turned into the silk flies, which power a lot of the automaton enemies you see in Pharloom

[whole marsh]

And lights

[harsh jacinth]

I don't see the Pale King as a good guy or a bad guy; I view him as someone who tried to start a kingdom and while not perfect genuinely did care about that kingdom and the subjects within
He did good things, he did bad things; he was a morally grey being whose conflict with the Radiance ultimately stems from them both just trying to carve out their own slice of the world and unfortunately happened to decide to set up shop in the same place
Same thing of the Radiance: while her situation was tragic and she seemed peaceful during her days of ruling the Moth Tribe, that doesn't make her decision to spread the Infection throughout all of Hallownest a justified solution

[whole marsh]

Pharloom's light bulbs run on tortured souls

[gritty fractal]

yes they are distinct from lumflies because they have different wings and also have tails

they appear in the opening cutscene where one collides into hornet's cage and collapses the seal
then appear in the lace arena where it is revealed she was controlling some of them, implying shes the one who freed hornet at the start

they also appear in the mist, responding to the needolin to lead you towards phantom

[dire lynx]

citadels foundation is also the corpses of pilgrims, the weavers suck

[pure belfry]

I'm also gonna guess The Architect created Fourth Chorus. We see another one of these Chorus constructs in the Architect's area next to Cauldron in Underworks. She may not be the Architect that created them originally tho.

[harsh jacinth]

I think the idea is the whole 'pilgrimage' thing may not have begun until the Weavers had left and the Conductors took over

[scenic stirrup]

Now that i think about it the snared silk ending act 3 stuff couldve been avoided entirely if lace didnt intervene since the knight wouldve saved hornet anyway yknow

[dire lynx]

the weavers set it up so that there would always be song to keep GMS asleep, the conductors and gang just took over from them

[scenic stirrup]

[harsh jacinth]

I highly doubt it was her alone: she is called the Twelfth Architect, meaning she's likely the last of a group of architects who collectively created things like the Choruses and so forth

[gritty fractal]

nah theres only one architect at a time

[scenic stirrup]

Yea

[harsh jacinth]

Oh wait a minute, yes, that is true
I still think there's a chance the Citadel wasn't as bad as it is in present when the Weavers ruled, but obviously that's my own opinion and not stated in fact

[flint wadi]

weavers are key figures in pilgrims culuture, claimed to have watched over their safe passage and tending to their wounds

[harsh jacinth]

Really?

[gritty fractal]

you can find a secret room in the architect chapel where you find her previous iterations

[harsh jacinth]

Is there really???
Man I gotta find that place

Oh wait, i can't if it's in the chapel

[gritty fractal]

you cant go back once you have the crest

[harsh jacinth]

I must have seen it then, I probably just didnt understand what I was looking at

[terse warren]

Ok so I WASN'T going insane and that's actually written somewhere. Where tho?

[harsh jacinth]

But how does that imply there's only one Architect at a time?

[flint wadi]

silkspear spire sign

[gritty fractal]

nah the breakable is not obvious

its to the right of the chorus that you bind the crest of

[pure belfry]

I end up overlooking a lot more than I realize when playing this game

[gritty fractal]

needolin

[flint wadi]

theres also effigies which are made by the pilgrims

[harsh jacinth]

Ohhhh
Well damn, that does make me a little sad I missed that

I really tried hard to search the chapels for anything I might miss

[flint wadi]

implying worship

and if weavers helped pilgrims of old then it only makes sense why would they be cemented into myth

[harsh jacinth]

Yeah, same
Like when I beat Groal for the first time and got the Twisted Soul, i somehow missed the hanging body in the same room

[gritty fractal]

because the breakable is not a normal wall at floor level its an arch in the upper right corner

[pure belfry]

wait there was a body?

lol Ig I missed that too

[dire lynx]

off the top of my head weavers KOd GMS because they wanted power, mutilated widow because she liked gms, destroyed verdania + coral forest + most of whisp thicket + bilewater/putrefied ducts/sinners road, and started a death cult to keep GMS asleep

[zinc pivot]

Right on top of the pickup

[gritty fractal]

snail shaman body yes

it disappears after the seeker soul is claimed

[harsh jacinth]

Yeah, it's of a Snail Shaman, hanging in the air
He had come to seek Groal and the Stilkin's help against the Citadel and in return they killed him, hung him up and harvested his soul for magic

[harsh jacinth]

Yeah, damn
That's unfortunate
I'll have to look it up somewhere then, maybe on the wiki

[pure belfry]

damn I thought the Stilkin's were against the Citadel too with all the pollution and decay in Bilewater being the Citadel's fault. I guess in the Stilkin's minds "The enemy of my enemy is not my friend"

[gritty fractal]

basically how the architect works is that when one fails (as the 12ths does after you buy out her stock) they get replaced
hence the name "12th architect"

as she says, "always an architect..."
you see the bodies of the others and the needolin dialogue talks of the endless cycle

[harsh jacinth]

Oh they are
Groal's Needolin dialogue implies he wanted to use the soul power to attack and overrun the Citadel
Just, yeah, he apparently didn't think it was worth not killing somebody who sought his help to do so

[pure belfry]

Not that the Shamans plans were any better I guess.

[harsh jacinth]

Damn
So I guess that's why you can harvest the Pristine Core then...

[gritty fractal]

they basically dont trust any outsider regardless of their stated intention because they already got betrayed once

or i guess 3+ times over probably

considering the sewage from the ducts, the smog from the exhaust organ, and invasive roachs all destroying bilewaters ecosystem simultaneously

[pure belfry]

I wonder if on some level Sherma knows just how corrupt and awful the Citadel is but can't admit it to himself.

[gritty fractal]

and then the pinstress order as well

[harsh jacinth]

Not at first, but I think he's definitely gotta know by the end there too

[harsh jacinth]

What did the Pinstress' order do to the Stilkin?

[gritty fractal]

they ARE stilkin

[harsh jacinth]

They- what???

[gritty fractal]

didnt you notice the noses

[harsh jacinth]

Damn how much lore did I miss???

[harsh jacinth]

wait wait, hold on a second...

[dire lynx]

D-do not judge me a doubter! The Citadel is a holy place indeed, resplendent and vast beyond my wildest hopes!
But yet... the grand halls ache with silence, and I see suffering in the shadows wherever I peer too deeply.
Fear, and pain... why were these things allowed into our paradise? Have my brothers and sisters not yet earned their holy reward?

[harsh jacinth]

Oh
Ummm
I mean, yeah, I do see it
But is that the only evidence, or...?

[gritty fractal]

the third pinstress is found in putrified ducts. her corpse is where you get the wreath of purity to repel the maggots

[hidden crater]

what type of comparing is this bro

[harsh jacinth]

Yet another thing I missed...
That would definitely be more convincing

[pure belfry]

Just like that poor exhausted horselike bug in Underworks. Faithful to a fault.

[harsh jacinth]

Sorry, I have trauma from people insisting that "Zote is totally a Vessel because he has a white shell and wears a cloak" /lh

When I got to Far Fields and saw the Fertids, I said "Oh great, can't wait for all the people insisting these guys are totally made of void..."

[gritty fractal]

its a lot more obvious they are stilkin when you see them in the same garb as the rest of the bilewater stilkin lol

[harsh jacinth]

Yeeeeah okay, that does make sense

[gritty fractal]

theres needolin dialogue here but i dont remember it

[young iron]

I think you’re giving him too much credit. He seems more innocent than ignorant. Kinda gives off child vibes

[harsh jacinth]

God, I was praying hard Sherma wouldn't go the way of Myla

[zinc pivot]

Considering sherma was pivotal to the act 3 beginning ig he was never meant to die

[gritty fractal]

sherma's faith is genuine. it isnt until the whiteward the cracks show thru

[pure belfry]

That's the ruined Pinstress shelter in Ducts right?

[harsh jacinth]

Which... y'know, fair enough, that place is literally Silent Hill...

[zinc pivot]

Silent Hill? That’s Bloodborne

[harsh jacinth]

Well I was about to suggest Resident Evil since it's like a hospital, but that works too

I really hope we get a DLC that lets us revisit un-polluted Bilewater the same way we do Verdania
I'm really curious how it looked beforehand

[zinc pivot]

Cleanwater

[edgy barn]

Brightwater

[viscid ridge]

Purewater

[dire lynx]

Clearwater

[pure belfry]

Freshwater

[zinc pivot]

Distilled Water

[gritty fractal]

yeah
apparently her needolin dialogue is

Feared by all...
Dear sisters...
Must we hide?```
given shes dead im gonna say the answer to that last question was "yes"

[harsh jacinth]

Fiji Water?

[dense aspen]

It's the pale king

[dire lynx]

Palewater, based off of pale lake

[zinc pivot]

Next someone gonna say Evian

[pure belfry]

It'd be really funny if Bilewater was always called that even before the pollution for some reason

[edgy barn]

It's Bilewater an in-universe name?

[harsh jacinth]

I assume so

[pure belfry]

yeah

[zinc pivot]

Hornet/Shakra named it

No other record of it shown the name

[dense aspen]

Do you guys think the surface is desolate and dead

[zinc pivot]

Dead civilization
Wild life thrives

[edgy barn]

Yeah. Much more interesting that way

[gritty fractal]

GMS almost destroyed her kingdom to try to save her daughter from the void
PK committed mass infanticide sacrificing his offspring to the void save his kingdom

so GMS is better parent
PK is better ruler

[harsh jacinth]

Proooooooooobably not
I mean the Skrill live in the Nameless Town, so even if there's no kingdoms ala Hallownest, it's not lifeless per se

[zinc pivot]

Make your kids turn on you isnt quality of a good parent

[dense aspen]

I think k it's would be much cooler to have a alive and thriving surface but one filled with constant war

[harsh jacinth]

Tbf, this was after she had treated Lace more like a servant/devotee for years

[harsh jacinth]

I don't really know tbh
It probably varies a lot depending on where you go

[edgy barn]

She is better, not good. The bar is literally on the abyss.

[mossy root]

they're both bad parents in different ways
The difference is that the pale king Had to be a bad parent because it was incompatible with being a 'good ruler' in his eyes so there's that

[dense aspen]

I wonder if any kingdom discovered electricity

[pure belfry]

y'know this might explain why some places are called such simple names. That's not actually what they're called. It's just an easy name for a cartographer or traveller to remember. Especially in a kingdom that's been dead or rotting so long that the names of some of these places are forgotten. Could be the same for some places in Hallownest.

[harsh jacinth]

"No cost too great" and all that

[gritty fractal]

what do you think the voltvessels are

[harsh jacinth]

I mean both Hallownest and Pharloom had creatures that could use electricity, they just never learned to harness it

[dire lynx]

To be fair, when it came to actual parenting PK was clearly pretty decent. The Hollow Knight ended up loving him after all

[zinc pivot]

The only instances of named land is
Shellwood
Boneland
Verdania (RIP)

[heavy gyro]

yeah an example being city of tears, which had a different name before

[harsh jacinth]

Tbh i like that consistency
makes the world of Hollow Knight feel fantasy-like and not too modern, if that makes sense

[dense aspen]

Again vomiting genocide dosent make you a bad parent

[gritty fractal]

citadel literally was studying electricity of the voltnest and created voltvessels tho

[pure belfry]

I'm assuming Karak was an original name

[mossy root]

Who knows what he was actually like because I honestly thhink that's moreso just a child naturally imprinting on their parent rather than any sign he was legitimately a decent parent
he loved them definitely but did he Parent them? no idea

[harsh jacinth]

Oh they created the Voltvessels?
huh, nvm then

Well still, it clearly didn't progress far enough to actually building electrical machines

[dire lynx]

He wouldn't feel such terrible guilt as to create path of pain if they didn't have some kind of proper bond

[harsh jacinth]

"Ah, shit, I got attached to my kid, gotta build a torture path now to cover it up" /lh

[mossy root]

That's a good point
Still, i have no idea if his parenting would constitute as decent or just that they shared little fleeting moments of familial love

[pure belfry]

you think the reason the void in this game tends to manifests its attacks as saws is because of the Pale King's obsession with saws and they're all the PK's dead kids?

[mossy root]

great theory 10/10

[harsh jacinth]

I mean maybe, but unlikely
Just seems more like the void reacting in as aggressive a manner as it can

[dire lynx]

Although it's a common meme, PK didn't actually have a saw obsession.

[gentle aspen]

Both of the kingdoms we see harness electricity in some form

[harsh jacinth]

True, but I mean when I saw that Cogwork Wheel i was literally like "TIME TO PROVE I'M THE PALE KING'S DAUGHTER AFTER ALL" /lh

[gentle aspen]

Teacher’s archives and memorium

[dire lynx]

I do think it's funny, not his actual personality tho lol

[gritty fractal]

yeah the charged lumafly tank isnt just for your journal, its a power source

[harsh jacinth]

Actually that's a good point
It may not have caught the attention of the PK yet, but Monomon's studies of the jellyfish might have led them towards the same path of electricity-study that Pharloom developed

[gritty fractal]

teachers archives literally has computers

[mossy root]

to be fair they do share an interest in tinkering and creating tools

[harsh jacinth]

Right, like as funny as it is, it's important not to treat memetic mutations as actual canon lore

[mossy root]

Wait I legitimately thought it was just a joke

[gentle aspen]

Well the tablets seem to be some form of archaic computer and monomon was aware of both the vessel project and the radiance, not a stretch to say they were both aware of what the other were doing n

[pure belfry]

is there an actual likely explanation for the White Palace being filled with Buzzsaws? Is that actually even what the White Palace looked like considering we see it in when entering the dream of a Kingsmould?

[gentle aspen]

PK put the palace in there and added all the defenses because he’s paranoid

[harsh jacinth]

The saw thing?
It is, but a lot of people sometimes act like it's actually canon that the PK had some obsession with sawblades

[mossy root]

the buzzsaws are moreso a manifestation of the pale king's very. harrowing emotions and his guilt and paranoia
at least I think

the white palace DEFINITELY didn't look like that in reality

[dire lynx]

The spikes and saws are physical manifestations of the guilt and desire to protect his thoughts

[mossy root]

Yeah ^^

[gentle aspen]

People take the sawblade thing and go “must’ve really liked sawblades” when it’s actually kinda sad the guy failed and ran away and still felt the need to protect himself from unseen threats

[mossy root]

truly no cost too great

[dire lynx]

No cost in a dream after all

[harsh jacinth]

That, and given he put together his bond with the Hollow Knight (in his eyes at least) caused the perceived 'failure' of the plan, the guilt he must have felt would be immense

[gentle aspen]

and that’s how he died

[pure belfry]

Is that why the one tender moment/memory of the PK and HK is at the end of Path of Pain?

[harsh jacinth]

All that sacrifice, all that suffering and pain, just for it to be for nothing because he couldn't help but love his child

[gentle aspen]

a depressed deity who can’t do anything despite his power

[dire lynx]

Yes

[dense aspen]

Pale king is a tragedy

[gritty fractal]

yeah he literally took his entire palace and shoved it into the dream world, with the only anchor to the physical world being a single kingsmould... which he also put a shield around as extra precaution on top of the whole interior being a death trap

[harsh jacinth]

In all fairness, I think the Pale King's plan was doomed from the start
Ultimately I don't think any being that's a fusion of Soul and Void can be truly 'empty'- not that I think the solution for the Infection ever lied in the idea of a vessel having no will or desires, etc. in the first place

[gritty fractal]

and then he died anyway

[dire lynx]

He realised everything that went wrong after THK cracked was his fault and everything he had been working for and to do had amounted to nothing, and he only had himself to blame

[harsh jacinth]

Thank god, so that is what happened
I was starting to question my assumption that the PK had literally moved his palace to the Dream Realm for a minute

[mossy root]

YES I agree
I dont think any of the vessels were ever truly hollow at all

[dense aspen]

They arent

[pure belfry]

You're all making me feel bad for PK but he's literally that spider dude from Monster's Inc. "I'll kill a million children before I let my kingdom die!"

[dense aspen]

It was retconed or comfrimed they aren't

[dire lynx]

Where

[harsh jacinth]

The true key to using the void, at least in my opinion, was always finding a way to unify it
That's why, at least to me, the difference between The Hollow Knight and the Sealed Siblings ending is that in SS, the Knight has the Voidheart charm, which allows it to properly control and harness void, which will permanently keep the Infection sealed

[dense aspen]

Godhome

[dire lynx]

Explain

[harsh jacinth]

I don't think anyone would argue what he did to the Vessels was right
But he knew that going in and felt immense guilt for what he and the White Lady did to them
It's why he said "No cost too great"
It was his attempts to justify it

Basically a "for the greater good" mentality

[mossy root]

Ohh I agree
The pk had a fundamental misunderstanding of what the void truly meant and in the end maybe he even realized that before it killed him
all the dead children in the abyss and they sure as hell felt that death 😭

[pure belfry]

This is why I can't take a side on the PK being better or worse than GMS. I think they both equally suck but in different ways

[dense aspen]

I'm not a expert but it was comfrimed that they feel something just by living

[dire lynx]

GMS has no redeeming qualities

[pure belfry]

she did care about Lace.

[harsh jacinth]

To be honest, none of the higher beings look great. The Pale King massacred most of his own children, the Radiance condemned an entire kingdom that did nothing to her, Unn seems to have abandoned the Mosskin, the Nightmare's Heart uses a ritual that replaces loyal troupe leaders with new replacements to stay alive...

[mossy root]

In the end they both doomed their children to suffer and pick up after their own sins

[dire lynx]

In a creepy possessive and controlling way

[gritty fractal]

as we see from silksong, trying to control the void is uhh... not generally good idea. the Void is basically primordial chaos
even PK needed help from weavers to build all this void stuff like the black egg
so his conclusion must have been that creating a biologically fused being of god and void was the answer to creating a vessel for the Radiance

then he and his wife bred like crazy and dump the eggs into the abyss

[pure belfry]

I mean yeah definitely doesn't express or manifests that care/love in a good way but it's there

[harsh jacinth]

She loved her daughter but still abused and damaged her
it's possible to love someone and still be terrible to them

[dire lynx]

Unn was drained and exhausted by the radiance infecting her kingdom, she tried to save the mosskin but their minds were clouded out by the infection. Unn is the GOAT

[zinc pivot]

I guess higher beings’ thought process is just too inhuman
(Or in-insect) and was incapable of producing healthy relationships

Which tends to be a theme with god involved stories

[mossy root]

gms is soo fascinating because she's genuinely a foil for the pale king and I love what they say about divinity and being a 'parent' like it's so good

[dense aspen]

I keep forgetting lace is her daughter

[pure belfry]

do we actually know anything about GMS's relationship to the Weavers or how she felt about/treated them before the present events of the game beyond "creating" them from the Pharlids?

[harsh jacinth]

it is true that I don't think higher beings are 'bugs' like all the other characters are
i mean, even just from a wider perspective they seem a lot more

[zinc pivot]

There is sadly nothing
The only known instance is how First Sinner viewed her deceptions

[harsh jacinth]

She told them they were 'divine' and did seem to have some level of care for them

That didn't help the Weavers take the revelation they'd been lied to any better

[mossy root]

she wanted undying loyalty from them too right? like wanted to control them as her 'daughters' but that certainly didn't sit well with them

like it's that 'betrayal' and lack of loyalty that made her create lace because she wanted a dependent child who would be unable to betray her because of that dependence

[harsh jacinth]

Right, exactly
She cared for them, but she wanted them to be devoted to her rather than giving them their own path

[dire lynx]

That's not a redeeming quality though, as I said

[harsh jacinth]

It's not, I agree, I'm just making a statement

[harsh jacinth]

Lace and Phantom

[mossy root]

OH how could I forget phantom
except even she had been dissatisfied with phantom

[zinc pivot]

I suppose it works like this
GMS gave Weavers sentience and longevity, call them daughters
The Weavers serve her without question and she never returns anything back to them
The Weavers find out the truth and were despaired they were only pawns of GMS

[gritty fractal]

we know widow still actively revered GMS. you can even find a needolin memory of widow in the cradle.
tho it seems like the other weavers didnt agree since widow got her mask removed and spikes embedded into her silk glands

not really sure i understand the flow of events that led to the weavers turning on her

[dense aspen]

Pale king is the best leader we know of

That's goat status

[gritty fractal]

totally unbiased opinon im sure

[zinc pivot]

Pale King gave and was given
It was a healthy relationship between monarch and subject

[harsh jacinth]

Widow is admittedly a character I still don't fully understand
Like I'm not even sure if it's fully confirmed that it was the Weavers who did that to her...? But I'm not sure who else it would have been
And yeah, I don't think we get any clarification for how that whole thing went down

[zinc pivot]

GMS granted sentience and put weavers to debt essentially

[dire lynx]

Unn and PK unarguably the best higher beings

[mossy root]

it does make me wonder how a kingdom without a higher being ruling it would function

[gritty fractal]

there are unused sprites similar to the ones in the weaver memories at least depicting what happened to widow so i think originally we were supposed to see it

[mossy root]

but that's a thought to be answered another time

[zinc pivot]

Karak
Hunter’s March
Verdania
Mantis Village
Hive

[dire lynx]

Mantis', verdania, the skarr

[mossy root]

oh right

im stupid I completely forgot about that

[dire lynx]

Mushrooms also

[harsh jacinth]

I think trying to find/decide which higher beings are "better" is partially missing the point
The higher beings don't typically operate on the same level of understanding that most characters would, and just because we haven't seen any abuses on Unn's end doesn't mean they didn't happen (doesn't mean they did either I'm just saying)
It seems a commonality of all higher beings to create/convince other lesser creatures to worship and devote themselves to you

[zinc pivot]

It does require a figure of strong power to lead the land

[whole marsh]

There’s text that could infer that she was captured from a neighboring kingdom and was forced into service. The texts says “staked into service” and she has literal needles staked into her spine to keep her from using her silk.

[harsh jacinth]

That's just my opinion though
I don't wanna discourage anyone from any particular trains of thoughts or ideas

[harsh jacinth]

Right, I remember that
It's just a matter of whether that is actually referring to Widow or another Weaver

[zinc pivot]

I think Unns land is similar to fairy land in power structure
Unn as the standing figure and occasional green knights as enforcers

[harsh jacinth]

I personally don't think it is because Widow seems to be a first-generation Weaver and the "staked to service" one is mentioned as being "one quarter Weaver"

[whole marsh]

I like to think it’s her, it makes the most sense.

[mossy root]

i suppose that's just what's inherent in their nature
higher beings seek things to have power over and guide and that nature can consume them
Although some handle it better than others

[zinc pivot]

Widow was the one who plays song to sustain GMS in the past
So i doubt it

[harsh jacinth]

True
Doesn't mean they're evil, it just seems to be in their nature
But GMS shows that their creations can react... badly to that news

[whole marsh]

It’s possible that’s why she lacks the typical weaver mask. Hornet says it looks like it was forcibly removed, but she could just be commenting on the lack of mask. (Then again Occam’s razor, so eh)

[harsh jacinth]

If GMS had been more open from the start, I wonder if the Weavers would have done what they did

[harsh jacinth]

Very possible
At this stage we just can't be sure

[zinc pivot]

Hard to say because GMS literally made them all infertile

Near infertile but same point

[mossy root]

She is the only one who Can be a 'Mother"

[harsh jacinth]

I was about to say, lol
Not completely given... you know, lol

[whole marsh]

Do we know if that was intentional?

[zinc pivot]

It was in designs i assume

Because there were no mentions of second weaver batch

[harsh jacinth]

You know something I was thinking about recently
Why does Herrah look so different to other first generation Weavers?

[gritty fractal]

its kind of a problem when you evolve only the female members of a species because that means the only means of reproduction is to create hybrids

[charred nimbus]

I mean, we can discuss the retcon...

[mossy root]

i feel as if it was intentional imo
they are eternally her children and for them to become something other than 'child' goes against the eternal role she has set for herself

[harsh jacinth]

Retcon?

[charred nimbus]

Herrah was retconned into being a weaver...

[gritty fractal]

and hybrids are by their nature infertile. so like i dont think hornet or any other weaver decendant can bear children

[zinc pivot]

Yeah its a commonly accepted thing here
The difference in appearance was too difficult to ignore

[harsh jacinth]

...Are you sure?
I'm
Pretty sure she was mentioned as being one in the first game...

[charred nimbus]

She wasn't, you can look it up

[dense aspen]

Neat

[zinc pivot]

Not really
The existence of quarter and eighth weaverspawn implies that reproduction is still possible

[gritty fractal]

oh true

[dense aspen]

Wait what's rhe diffrence between dreams and memories

[mossy root]

under the domain of two completely different higher beings entirely probably

or maybe just. entirely different essences in general
i honestly do not know what the lore is withh memories in skong

[harsh jacinth]

The Dream Realm is a place made up of Essence, fragments of light
The Dream Realm can manifest certain hopes and desires physically, things like Grey Prince Zote and the Soul Tyrant

[gritty fractal]

i dont think dream as a concept is under domain of a higher being
there are many higher beings that reside within the dream tho

[harsh jacinth]

Memories... that's a little bit harder because we don't get as clear an image in Silksong
We know it's apparently a Weaver skill that they can dive into memories but I'm not totally sure what that means yet

[heavy gyro]

memories are dreams since the description of the dream nail says you can peer into memories, and the abyss memory also exists

[whole marsh]

For what it's worth, Hornet looks much more like Herrah when she becomes the Weaver Queen, so it's possible Herrah was purpose bread with the goal of eventually making something akin to Hornet. As for her being referred to as a "Beast" and common bug in the first game; she wasn't considered royalty there because the kingdom of Deepnest was already established, and the PK was the main ruler of everything else. She was an immigrant. As for calling her a beast, that's probably just a derogatory term for anyone who comes from Deepnest since they're so hostile to the PK.

[harsh jacinth]

This is as I understand it
We know of at least four higher beings with some connections to the Dream Realm (well, the Nightmare Realm in the case of one)

[dense aspen]

Wait another question did a after lif Exeter comfrimed

[harsh jacinth]

That's all true
The Spider Tribe was a thing in Deepnest before the Weavers arrived, and while the purpose-bred thing is conjecture, I can't imagine TC would make a retcon that big without considering the implications

[gritty fractal]

afterlife? eh not really

[harsh jacinth]

I think there is, at least based on Cloth, but it's not explicitly confirmed, no

[sacred heath]

saying it was a retcon and leaving it at that is Fucking Boring
we’re theorists we have to debate about that stuff

[pure belfry]

I wonder about the unbelievable crashout GMS would have if we actually killed Lace in one of our fights.

[gritty fractal]

cloth's ghost is just an imprint on the world just like all the other ghosts she doesnt even know shes dead

[harsh jacinth]

In general I tend to dislike retcons as an explanation and avoid them as much as I can, they just have a tendency to create inconsistencies in stories

[harsh jacinth]

It's moreso the fact that she says "[name I don't remember] is waiting for me" and is then gone when you leave the room and come back
I'm not saying that's _conclusive, it just makes me like to think that she went to the afterlife

[mossy root]

I see I see
Hmm memories start getting a little interesting to me cuz like, the birthplace cutscene is a memory yet it's accessed via the dream nail so perhaps they do have some relation?

[gritty fractal]

Nola talks about going to meet them if you let Cloth survive to dirtmouth too

[zinc pivot]

It’s the mean of access i would say

[heavy gyro]

yeah they do since the awoken dream nail description says you go into memories

[whole marsh]

I don't think there's any bad retcons in SS. Most of it fits pretty well into the established lore and gives us greater context for stuff that was left vague in the first game. I mean, yeah there's a few little things that don't fit perfectly, but overall I think TC did pretty good with expanding the lore.

[dense aspen]

What dosent fit perfectly?

[zinc pivot]

Herrah for instance

[harsh jacinth]

Yeeeeeeah, I always read that dialogue as Cloth being a death-seeker...

I mean she says "None of them (enemies in Hallownest) could take me to you" which
Reads to me like Nola is dead and Cloth was looking for a good death to join her

[gritty fractal]

wait actually i might have misread her dialogue

[whole marsh]

The main thing that comes to mind are the bees. They were apparently self isolated pretty early on, so Hornet being affiliated with them doesn't quite fit. But I suppose you could hand wave it away by saying there was a secret pact made before they closed themselves off. The timeline isn't super clear so there is some wiggle room I suppose.

[dense aspen]

Ah ok

[whole marsh]

#sk-lore message

[split holly]

Hello everyone, is there any theories on Wisp Thicket relation to nightmare heart?

[harsh jacinth]

Actually the Three Queens thing was a concept in the first game, they just ended up not mentioning it because they weren't sure yet if they wanted it to be canon

[whole marsh]

From what I recall, they ended up changing their minds on that

[steep talon]

i I havent seen any

[harsh jacinth]

So it's not entirely a new concept they had to fit into the new game, it's an old concept they resurrected

[gritty fractal]

it makes more sense when you consider the hive was supposed to be next to deepnest but they moved it to kindgoms edge so it gets a bit weird

[whole marsh]

Yeah, they re-canonized it.

[zinc pivot]

It’s not the same flame i reckon
Nightmare Flame is fueled by a kingdom’s regret
The wisps are just transient flame fueled by silk

[whole marsh]

I believe this is also part of the reason why the changed their mind. The hive was moved to the other side of the kingdom, so affiliation with deepnest made less sense

[split holly]

I'm just looking on my friend trying to beat Grimm and the lamps on the arena look almost identical to the ones in Wisp Thicket

[steep talon]

yes, I agree. Basically no relation

[split holly]

oh, I see, thanks

[harsh jacinth]

Possible it just has to do with Vespa being a good warrior now, rather than spatial affiliation

[split holly]

I knew about the flames being different, but I just noticed about the lamps themselves looking alike

[charred nimbus]

I was watching Blue stream lmao, i mean, we are pretty much sure it is a recon at this point, but knowing Team Cherry wich made a cool boss rush for fun and made their ending the canon one, they could problaby go around this, but at this point there is no dialogue or reference in the first game that says at any point that Herrah was a weaver, she didn't even look like a weaver, i can't really find a source that doesn't exist and this is mainly the reason why it is a retcon

[whole marsh]

Yeah, I mean it still works just not as cleanly as they originally planned. But that's really only if you're REALLY digging into the lore and analyzing timelines. Most players won't see that the puzzle piece doesn't fit 100%

[zinc pivot]

Tbh you gotta remember a tramway that connects deepnest to palace ground and the hive exists

[steep talon]

grimm lanterns are more rombus shaped, wisps are more circular

[gritty fractal]

no they really dont

[dense aspen]

Can grimm be killed

Like permanently

[whole marsh]

Chaos flame vs Normal fire lol

[zinc pivot]

I think Hive was pretty much indifferent to hallownest until the break out happened

[zinc pivot]

If Void managed to remove the nightmare heart

[charred nimbus]

Problaby, but the Nightmare heart can problaby work that around, you need to remember the Nightmare heart is the true higher being, not Grimm

[harsh jacinth]

...Well, wait a minute: Hornet uses silk in the first game

[steep talon]

wow didnt know Blue rebranded to be HK theorist, good for him!

[whole marsh]

In theory, probably, but I imagine you'd need to kill the Nightmare Heart to actually kill Grimm

[dense aspen]

Like with a weapon that erases souls

[zinc pivot]

Void

[whole marsh]

My explination for Herrah: #sk-lore message

[split holly]

okay, my memory doing tricks on me then

[zinc pivot]

Void is basically the universal eraser

[sacred heath]

Maybe?
He’s more like an extension of the Nightmare Heart’s will, so I guess if you managed to kill him the Heart could just… spawn a new one?

[charred nimbus]

That could possibly be true too, but it's kinda lame because we actually don't get any Herrah reference in Silksong other then Red Memory, and they also changed her design for the Red Memory

[steep talon]

we should make Hornet play Mother 2, so she can manifest eraser eraser and kill void!

[sacred heath]

I’m not caught up on all the juicy Grimm lore though

[dense aspen]

Do you think swords exist I hollow knight is mean spears do

[whole marsh]

Her design isn't really different, she's just sitting on a throne and wearing different clothes

[steep talon]

Mantis tribe uses nailspears

or Mantis Lords specifically

[edgy barn]

Midwife and Hornet also call Herrah a beast, and while the weavers wouldn't be royalty in deepnest, their intelligence, magic abilities and foreign procedence would make it hard to believe that they would just get lumped in with the common deepnest bugs.

[charred nimbus]

Grimm is a vessel, like the Knight/Ghost, but he is a vessel to contain the Nighmare heart

[steep talon]

i think mushrooms just arent up to date with all the juicy deepnest lore

[gritty fractal]

given the ritual for grimm's rebirth requires collection of new flames i would assume the heart cannot respawn him indefinitely. it would have to take out some of its own reserve power to do it

[dense aspen]

Do you think he has free time

[edgy barn]

Well yeah that's the whole point, the lore wasn't the way it is now when those tables were written.

[dense aspen]

Grimm i mean or is he like constantly has to find new kingdoms

[gritty fractal]

not a vessel. an avatar

[charred nimbus]

He is literally a vessel tho

[edgy barn]

He is a vessel, WL draws the parallel between the Knight and Grimmchild

[gritty fractal]

vessels are made to contain something thats why they are called that

[charred nimbus]

Grimm is a vessel for the Nightmare Heart

[heavy gyro]

Grimm contains flames

[sacred heath]

no wonder he’s so polite with TK
he can relate to it

[whole marsh]

Damn, I forgot about that! Uh, she wasn't referred to as a weaver either because she was a cross breed and the term was only used for full blooded weavers in Hallownest, or they wanted to keep her lineage a secret from the PK so he wouldn't suspect their offspring would be a powerful psudo-higher being that could turn against his kingdom in the future

[split holly]

naaah, he just wants to show-off XD

[steep talon]

can she be a cross breed, Hornet is considered half weaver, if Herrah was a cross breed, she would be quarter, no? Or maybe this is a funny, and im not getting it

[ebon silo]

Is the water wet

[charred nimbus]

Yeah, that's pretty much right

[steep talon]

my lawyer advised me not to say anything

[whole marsh]

Then they wanted to keep her linage a secret so the PK wouldn't know he'd help them make a psudo-higher being

[gritty fractal]

i do wonder grimm's relationship to the pale beings
grimm seems to respect wyrm a lot
but lady seems to loath him

like, she doesnt hate him enough to tell the knight not to help his ritual, just to make sure it doesnt prioritize the ritual over the mission to stop the radiance. but when the ritual is done she will shittalk grimmchild

[edgy barn]

He would know that by default because, like, is his kid,

[steep talon]

I think PK wouldnt give a shit, but alright I dont mind this explanation

[charred nimbus]

I mean, it appears most of the higher being nature is to compete with each other it seens

[steep talon]

nightmare heart lives of reuined civilizations, I imagine WL doesnt like bottom feeders like that, reminds her how much they epically failed

[charred nimbus]

True

[zinc pivot]

I do wonder what made white lady agree to be pale kings partner and co ruler

[whole marsh]

I think he would, because Deepnest was an enemy. So if he knew sleeping with Herrah would essentially give them a super weapon, I imagine he'd probably decline. But at this point, this is all head cannon so I'll stop

[zinc pivot]

Who confessed first? How many dates did they go on?

[charred nimbus]

I don't think PK is that type of guy

[zinc pivot]

Well
He could show her his magnificent wyrm

[steep talon]

yee, it was either that or infection winning. A hard bargain was struck, or so White Lady said

[zinc pivot]

Ok moving on

[gritty fractal]

it was just a dalliance

[zinc pivot]

Oh i was discussing white lady and pale king

[gritty fractal]

oh i thought you meant herrah

too many concurrent conversations

[zinc pivot]

With the whole higher beings competing it makes me wonder how pk even get white lady

[edgy barn]

WL shittalking grimmchild is the game's way of telling you that you got played. Everybody involving in grimm's ritual is a pawn to the NH and the Knight ends up being no exception if they help complete it.

[zinc pivot]

I wonder if grimmchild just fucking dies in ETV

[steep talon]

it's ok, they have an eject button

[zinc pivot]

Because i suppose knight brings everything before engaging in ascension

[gritty fractal]

doesnt come across that way
the white lady is completely indifferent to the knight aiding grimmchild and tells them they can do so if they wish as long as they dont compromise the mission

it is only when the ritual is complete and grimm is reborn in the child that she will speak directly too him and tell him to get lost

[edgy barn]

PK would always know he is giving them a super weapon because it would be his kid, a half-wyrm.

[steep talon]

if I was grimm in godhome, and godseekers were focusing on knight. I would be sweating bullets for grimmchild

[zinc pivot]

Its funny grimm is technically still alive in godhome

[oak thicket]

Hey I’m back. I have a thought. Endgame spoilers are contained within this message.

||Lace|| doesn’t die to Hornet’s needle. She doesn’t die to ||void exposure.|| Yet Hornet describes her as a fragile form of life.

She is obviously not fragile, so two questions arise. First, why does hornet see her as fragile? And second, what would it take to actually kill ||Lace?|| Is it even something that can be done?

[zinc pivot]

Wait, no, the charm disappears WHEN you fight grimm

Yeah we definite are fighting grimm in his new body, mother fucker

[steep talon]

idk, she doesnt have that much health, I could kill her.. probably

[gritty fractal]

tbf u dont need a physical living body to appear in godhome

[zinc pivot]

Lace can die naturally through ravelling
As seen with Phantom

[gritty fractal]

like most of the bosses are dead

[zinc pivot]

Well grimm is an exception though

With us having finished his ritual of reincarnation essentially

Unless we are discussing banishment route

[gritty fractal]

its really no different for him to be there because its just a past version of him

[edgy barn]

"Success then for the scarlet heart, and irony, to use my spawn to grow its own." For me this line does come across in that way, even if WL doesn't directly address the knight.

[zinc pivot]

Right we really run out of higher beings to talk about in pharloom

Will tc release lifeblood dlc as a spooky month addition

[gritty fractal]

Aid their propagation, if you so choose, but do not renege on the larger task this kingdom implores.
what Lady tells the knight before the ritual's completion

she doesnt care if the knight helps or not

she clearly dislikes grimm but does not see him as an actively detrimental force

[edgy barn]

I don't mean that, in-universe, WL cares about that, I meant than in a meta level, the purpose of WL's final grimmchild dialogue is to inform the player that they got played.

I also think that Grimmchild being such a...questionable charm, is on purpose and par of that.

[gritty fractal]

carefree melody is simply superior
grimmchild is garbage

[sacred heath]

so do we think First Sinner is the same weaver who made Weavenest Atla?

[gritty fractal]

no

if she is that would mean her name is Atla but i dont believe that is the case

Atla is one of the weavers refrenced by a weaver effigy that we can find, referred to by the title "weaver of time"

[zinc pivot]

The appreciation increased after silksong fr

[edgy barn]

Society if First Sinner was instead called "First Sinner Atla": ✨✨✨✨

[gritty fractal]

nah even before silksong. its a super valuable charm for absolute radiance and how i managed to beat pantheon of hallownest on my first attempt in my most recent playthru before silksong released

[gritty fractal]

while on the topic what are the named weavers we know rn
Atla, Cindril, Murglin, Karn, Absolom, Camora, and Keelal? i think thats all the names we currently have

[mystic lance]

does the citadel caste even worship the gms

[gritty fractal]

the choir are literally under her direct control

at least as of the events of the game

[unreal estuary]

Plus Herrah but otherwise yeah I think so

[mystic lance]

i mean worship like pale king, or all they controlled like radiance

[unreal estuary]

Controlled, I think the citadel mostly worshipped the Weavers before being made to keep GMS asleep

[zinc pivot]

Honestly gms shouldve been the mouth piece here
Cuz lace talking throughout the void is unimaginable

[gritty fractal]

hard to say whats going on with the lace projection tbh lol

[mystic lance]

and the conductors were the capitalists who caused the every bench caused rosaries right?

[unreal estuary]

Probably? They seem to be at least a little in charge

[gritty fractal]

i think lace is just projecting herself through the silk

[charred nimbus]

I'm pretty sure the Conductors ruled all the citadel after the weavers said bye bye

[last peak]

because it's not her physical body

[graceful grail]

Its a projection of her mind

[mystic lance]

nah i would like purple quill instead

[zinc pivot]

I hate how trobbios quill doesn’t have a flowy quality of a birds feather

[graceful grail]

Gurr is the only bug with decency, at least he has a Gollum Flap

[zinc pivot]

15 rosaries for every underwork bench use? Yeah
50 rosaries for an elegant quill of a cool warrior tribe? Nahhh

He shows his faith with his balls of pale steel

That’s why judges let him pass

[charred nimbus]

But all the pilgrims use cloaks...

[zinc pivot]

Yeah we stripped pilgrims naked for the wish

[torn lagoon]

the judges are bullshit right? I mean they can't like read a bug's mind or something and if they are faithful it's all in the mannerisms which is why Sherma is the goat for wearing all of that

[unreal estuary]

The hat in question being a rosary tray

[gilded beacon]

Mort explains that to show devotion he needs rosaries so basically is pay to win, Sherma is just too pure, even for the Judge

[calm egret]

or he is a sneak master

[zinc pivot]

Sherma is too priceless

[charred nimbus]

I think Sherma could tank The Mist, did someone consider that?

[torn lagoon]

or he's quick with that pin

[unreal estuary]

I feel like the caretaker just put the cloak on Sherma without thinking and he's just too pure to take it off

[zinc pivot]

I kinda hate it
It covers up the rest of his head and makes it smaller

[frosty gate]

Chopper type shit

[gilded beacon]

.....maybe Sherma is a hidden menace.... Like a femme fatale but in cute....

[unreal estuary]

True

[steep talon]

i like the implication that caretaker just ran butt ass naked after the snare was set

[placid zodiac]

Sherma boss fight when

[zinc pivot]

The entire shaman family are nudist

[gilded beacon]

I know, I meant "Femme Fatale" as the character archetype in which a character seems weak in appearance but is just a bait to lower their enemie'd guard

Hollow Knight: Pilgrimage (we follow Pilby tho)

[unreal estuary]

It would be too easy, he'd just sing at everything and they'd let him go

[gilded beacon]

His faith protects him

[zinc pivot]

Sherma is basically jesus

[gilded beacon]

Kinda cute ngl, reminds me a little of the Pale King

[gritty fractal]

nothing in their heads but WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH
so no idea how they judge people

[gilded beacon]

Based on vibes.... Probably?

[frosty gate]

WAWAWAWAWAWAWA

[gritty fractal]

it would be neat if the judges only attack if you killed someone
not exactly feasible to not kill at least one pharloom inhabitant by the time you reach blasted steps tho bc moss mother is absolutely required (unless you do major glitches)

[edgy barn]

There's actually unused code in the game for this exact mechanic

[gritty fractal]

wait really?

[edgy barn]

yeah

Even if it were used though, there's no way around killing Moss Mother.

[steep talon]

oh are judges unnafected by haunting?

[edgy barn]

They are haunted, but they still do their job. We know that because they let Sherma through

[mystic lance]

they are affected i think but doesnt matter since they serve the citadel either way

[zinc pivot]

Moss mother doesn’t qualify as a citizen of pharloom though

[steep talon]

huh, weird. I thought if they were affected they would just be aggro on anyone

[mystic lance]

foresight theory

[zinc pivot]

And neither is sister splinter

[zinc pivot]

Problem is
Why does her silk spool break
Why is there a cocoon with all her money in it

[steep talon]

it's just a game mechanic

[mystic lance]

good way to ruin all the fun man

[mystic lance]

hmm

[gritty fractal]

respawn isnt canon

[zinc pivot]

I mean sure lets entertain ourselves with the theory

[mystic lance]

we can speculate its not like team cherry specifically said that

[edgy barn]

Steel Soul is the canon game mode*

[zinc pivot]

If jiji and jinn can be seen at the same time i suppose we can extrapolate a little bit

[steep talon]

yee

[mystic lance]

team cherry never said that, in wanderer's journal book the writer meets steel soul jinn, jiji and tuck at the same time

[gritty fractal]

because they both exist. we can only meet one of them but Jinn does talk about Jiji
plus we know now that Jiji is a vassal under Jinn thanks to Zi and Sula

[mystic lance]

even if team cherry says it its still up to debate considering they change their deicions all the time

[zinc pivot]

Maybe lets put a headcanon to it for funsies
Respawning is canon, however after certain amount of time passes, tuk just die, jinn just leave

And its because the main character times running out with every death chipping away at their physical integrity

Again for fun thats all this theory is

[steep talon]

it's about canonicity of steel soul, i find it very unlikely they would change that

[sinful nimbus]

Respawning isn't canon but that doesn't mean the steel soul changes are necessarily more canon

Of which there's only one with Tuk anyway

[steep talon]

uh, I guess?

[dusky bay]

I wonder what will the third game be all about
And who will be the main protagonist

[steep talon]

it's about main characters deaths not being canon

[dusky bay]

Also can you do anything with the baby broodmother?

[steep talon]

there we go

[sinful nimbus]

No

[gritty fractal]

im still really curious about the Steel lore. i really hoping we get a lot of lore in whatever steel-related dlc team cherry decides to do

i have so many questions about them
like why are they sending steelhearts and vassals out to different kingdoms? what is the connection to the void? are the steel masters higher beings? is their far reaching sight an innate ability or a technology similar to the farsight?

[dusky bay]

Bec it keeps saying to tell the big dudes to get her more food
And everytime I came back to her I saw the area more and more infected with whatever that cloth thing is

[steep talon]

i imagine TC will make a new IP for their next game. Working on the same genre for 10+ years straight sounds like hell

[dusky bay]

Can we get dlcs first-

[frosty gate]

I find it unlikely that they will make a Steel DLC, City of Steel feels like a game of its own, but i could be wrong

[steep talon]

well yeah, they said dlcs will come

[unreal estuary]

I think they mentioned doing that in an interview. Also they have a website domain for something called Fearless Fox so that may be coming next

[dusky bay]

Aquatic dlc
Maybe another grimm dlc
More memories dlc

[gritty fractal]

doubt grimm dlc

[dusky bay]

Only unlockable after you do the mission for zi trust!!

[dusky bay]

We need trobbio and grimm duo fight

[gritty fractal]

doubt on coral as well if there is a memory dlc the coral would be a part of that

lifeblood and steel are the primary candidates for being expanded on i think outside of something to do with memory

[dusky bay]

It might be a big part
Since watcher is the most weirdest npc ever
Only working when needolin
So he might be a hint for the future dlcs

[gritty fractal]

watcher is just there as a remnant of karak's civilization

you get the memento and thats it

theres really not much that needs to be said about him

[dusky bay]

Third pintress in purified ducts

[gritty fractal]

pinstress would be part of memory dlc

if there is one

which i would hope cuz we need a godhome equivalent

[dusky bay]

Again how do you fight him? By needolin him
Which means he might be stopping you to needolin him to enter his memories

[gritty fractal]

?

[dusky bay]

The watcher doesn't fight you till you start to play the needolin

[crude marsh]

I doubt a grimm dlc will ever come to silksong, as its not really needed.

However I do find it very interesting that the Red Memory sequence features a red tint and a constant heartbeat in the background. Could the ritual the snail shamans used on you be tied to the Nightmare Heart? You did have to gather 3 "old hearts" so that seems connected in some way

[gritty fractal]

i know thats how you wake him up its not really unusual at all. needolin interacts with a lot of things

[unreal estuary]

It's red cause of Hornet I think

[frosty gate]

The "Memory DLC" will likely be
Karak
Slab
Bilewater

I said it before, it would be badass if the name of it was "Sinners" and we learns of the sins of these places and why they ended up that way

[crude marsh]

True, but that heartbeat seems interesting still

[frosty gate]

I really want to know more about The Slab

[gritty fractal]

heartbeat makes sense since hornet used 3 still beating hearts to enter it

[crude marsh]

oh yeah u right

[dusky bay]

Yea but it's kinda unknown to how to fight him
You just see him
Hit him abit
Take a long jump in the sand and just don't know what to do
So maybe in the future you needolin him
Then you kill him
So he leaves a sword or head
Then you needolin that to enter it's memories
On how blasted steps was before it fully dried out
Bec it's weird you needolin smth that gives you 0 hints
And that same thing just gives you a momento from all things considered

[dusky bay]

I wouldn't mind another grimm
He is kinda like herald where he goes to places that are going to be in doom to gather nightmares
So he might go to the new location of bonebottom

[frosty gate]

There's many interactables with the needolin that get no hints
"If in doubt, just play"

[crude marsh]

yeah ig could be interesting. They would have to drastically change it up from the firsts games dlc tho. I dont want a repeat

[gritty fractal]

0 hints my guy just needolin anything weird
its not that deep
hes just hibernating and you wake him up

[frosty gate]

That's how a friend got out of the mist

[dusky bay]

Most of them actually give an indication by having string around it
Watcher doesn't
Moths in the mist are made out of silk and are silk tests
In whiteward and even the start of thebgame you can see that
Most things you play needolin with are stuff that own silk around it or is a boss area to give some lore about the boss
But the watcher just exists
A random boss that gives 0 reward but smth that you can have on your shelf which feels random to just complete the 8 momentoes
He might have large use in the future
Yet again TC did have coral and alot of files still probably
It would be a big waste of potential after all these years tbh

[charred nimbus]

My friend passed The Mist by pure luck

[dusky bay]

how one mistake throws you back at the start-

[charred nimbus]

I have no idea, he just told me he didn't even know you could play the needolin for the silkflies and he somehow got out

[dusky bay]

Not to mention how easy the boss is
Feels like he should have smth more to him than just a random boss slapped in and all his lore was watching the edge of the coral
Like the game would be fully the same without him
Like give me one lore indication he gives about the coral?

[gritty fractal]

hes a border patrol officer lol
thats all. he stands guard at the border of karak

[charred nimbus]

I'm pretty sure the wacher lore implication is that all the coral dictatorship, aswell as Khan, are just hibernating and are waiting to come back until Hornet kills Khan

[dusky bay]

Every other thing feels right
Seth bec sadly the creator died and they wanted to make him fully memorable by living in the game and even breaking the leader boards in flea fest

[dusky bay]

Khann is actually dead

[charred nimbus]

We are indeed not sure about that...

[dusky bay]

Like nyleth

You can enter memories of already dead creatures

[charred nimbus]

But there is no confirmation that Khan is dead...

[wintry flame]

no no no you quite literally tear his heart out he's dead

[charred nimbus]

Yes, he dies when you get the heart, that's true

[wintry flame]

same for karmelita you beat her and then she dies straight up

[dusky bay]

You take the heart of the khann before death

[charred nimbus]

I'm saying we don't know if Khan is dead BEFORE we kill him

[dusky bay]

If he was hibernating why didn't we take his heart straight forward?

[wintry flame]

oh i'm sure he's probably alive

[dusky bay]

Is hornet dumb?

[frosty gate]

Strength

[wintry flame]

coral higher being #pray

[gritty fractal]

if you actually pay attention hornet says it when talking to karmelita

[dusky bay]

Khann seems the same
Karamlita was old so her heart was old
And nyleth was dead
Khann would've been actually way stronger if he could hibernate THIS LONG without water

[gritty fractal]

she needs the heart from their peak

[frosty gate]

Hornet doesn't need the Heart of the Rulers in the present, hee needs them in their peak.

[frosty gate]

Then imagine how strong he would be if he was in his peak with water

[charred nimbus]

He's actually a pretty weak boss, but canonically he would've been pretty strong i think...

[gritty fractal]

wish he was tougher
his fight is fun

[dusky bay]

And btw I am sure khann is dead
All his watchers except one are all dead

[frosty gate]

Considering he was a Ruler he probably was strong canonically

[charred nimbus]

How could you know that? if the Watcher at the edge is at the same state as Khan and the other coral warriors?

[gritty fractal]

khann is literally a warlord so yes hes supposed to be powerful

[dusky bay]

Yea why again was he added
He gives mostly 0 lore
What about the other 3 rulers they don't have any border patrol
Nyleth has seth to protect her

[dusky bay]

Then why when you play the needolin normally non wake up but him?

Which is the watcher

[charred nimbus]

I gave you the argument to why Watcher at the edge gave lore implications, you're just saying this doesn't work and are not adding anything to it

[steep talon]

funky memento

[gritty fractal]

because the watcher protects karak not khann

[frosty gate]

Karmelita quite literally had a big dude protecting the entrance to Hunters March and her area in Far Fields is really well hidden

[hushed viper]

does the bugs think the ||cave crumbling in act 3|| is like their equivalent of the rapture?

[dusky bay]

Ugh all we can do is wait but tbh I see it as a waste....

[charred nimbus]

Problaby

[charred nimbus]

There are some pilgrims in Songclave in act 3 wich asks if they are paying for their sins

[dusky bay]

Bec watcher still confuses me why a boss just exists and fights when needolin
I feel like he would stop you to enter the memories of the area
Of the whole coral place
When it was beautiful

[frosty gate]

Also the Watcher is not protecting Karak from the Citadel, he's standing Watch in case something from outside appears

[dusky bay]

I like dream areas...like verdania was very beautiful

I want beautiful sea...the start of coral tower was just amazing...

[charred nimbus]

I'm just saying that Team Cherry didn't make the Watcher for no reason, and while both me and you can't confirm if Khan was hibernating or not, that's all that's up to it

[hushed viper]

Pharloom has fallen millions must pay rosaries

[gritty fractal]

☝️ yes this is the actual important piece of lore about him that you are just not focusing on for some reason cuz u dont understand his purpose even after being told

like what is out there

[steep talon]

weavers

more weavers probably

[frosty gate]

Probably wastelands and dangerous bugs.

It is heavily implied that things outside of these kingdoms are dire.

[charred nimbus]

I don't think the Watcher really cares about the Weavers

[steep talon]

really? well, he probably should. They are all the rage these days

[gritty fractal]

the rune rage that is

[dusky bay]

I didn't say he was
He is protecting the edge
The area outside of pharloom
There is a path at the surface and blasted steps
It's just another area where people would ride boats to karak before it became a sand area
And tbh he seems very strong anyways
He is the only solider to survive out of all and only one protecting the edge (btw you can break the soldiers around khann)

[steep talon]

true!

[frosty gate]

In Hallownest and Pharloom the edges of the Kingdom are Wastelands

[gritty fractal]

you can only break one of the soldiers iirc

[frosty gate]

Yeah I know you can, he was probably appointed the position for that same reason, he was really strong

[charred nimbus]

Yes, but he's so sure that they are all dead

[dusky bay]

I feel like he will have some more work in the future...
I swear if he does I am coming back to these messages smh....MARK MY WORD

[dusky bay]

Stronger than khann-

[mystic lance]

hes a pretty shitty guard considering its so difficult to even find him

[dusky bay]

Also are the cornchfly like
Khann's dogs or some shit

[steep talon]

ok, i shall WATCH you

[muted rover]

Is GMS is in a weaker state when we fight her?

[charred nimbus]

It would be a realief if so

[dusky bay]

For that I will learn modding and make a mod where every area of hollow knight is bilewater

[gritty fractal]

yeah its getting frustrating trying to explain the concept of hibernation
the watcher demonstrates that they can do it, and we see they crumble away when they die. all of the corpses of enemies in the coral tower do it, watcher does it, khann does it- its not hard to grasp they arent corpses

[dusky bay]

Ye
She only gained enough power to get out of her sleeping state and the first thing she does is fight you
So she is probably weak

[ripe sable]

Elder Hu is from the same tribe as Shakra, right?

Both Elder Hu and Shakra fight with the same ring-type magic

[dusky bay]

Ye is

[gritty fractal]

we have no confirmation

[steep talon]

well Shakra says rings are particular to her and her master.

[orchid whale]

Is Elder Hu Shakira’s husband?

[dusky bay]

If you say it's bec of the rings elder hu and silksong are ages apart so they can change its design

[steep talon]

and also her Master might have fought with metal balls potentially, though that's just my theory

[muted rover]

then is it possible for the future DLC that a absolute radiance equivalent of GMS?

Probably the version when she arrived in Pharloom

[ripe sable]

I did think of that, but when i looked at Shakra's fight, i noticed both of them use the same tactic, using a sort of celestial ring art

[dusky bay]

Also elder hu attack is the same design as shakra's dash attack when you battle her

[ripe sable]

Exactly that

[dusky bay]

Probably not

[orchid whale]

It’s also worth noting that it’s likely Elder Hu, when he was alive, didn’t use magic to fight. Since yknow, we do only ever fight him as a ghost.

[hushed viper]

can we canonically douse ||Nyleth|| with weed killer please

[dusky bay]

Anyways steel soul mode time people
Wish me lu- dies to the same big rat

[dusky bay]

Cling grib on the way to rescue

[steep talon]

yes, and he's also probably a doctor that was helping mantis tribe somehow

[hushed viper]

i dont need cling grip the lion does no concern themselves with sliding downwards

[ripe sable]

Her lore and music made me want to douse Sister Splinter in it instead

[dusky bay]

Welp time to spam the sprint button

[hushed viper]

or just jump and clawline

[dusky bay]

Yk I mean the wall you hold on right?

[frosty gate]

Nyleth is fairly easy as a boss if you use Hunter pogo honestly

[dusky bay]

If you sprint while you are on a wall it climbs the wall for you

[dusky bay]

Wanderer for the sweet crits:3

[mystic lance]

where is conductor romino

[sinful nimbus]

You misspelled beast

[dusky bay]

Probably the unraveled

[sinful nimbus]

Romino is a random irrelevant conductor that is never elaborated on

[hushed viper]

yea ik just keep jumpin on the wall not much attacks require that much precise movement, ik there's that 1 attack where she shoots the weird glob things but by the time they reach you there should be enough space for you to just jump trhough with little problem

[charred nimbus]

Best crest in the game mentioned?

[sinful nimbus]

Unravelled is Conductor Mizello if anything

[mystic lance]

thats cool as heck

[charred nimbus]

The unraveled is Conductor Mizello

[dusky bay]

Who is mizello?

[charred nimbus]

The guy from th Psalm cylinder for the last surgery of conductor mizello

[hushed viper]

wait where do we learn of the other conductors? ik the unraveled was one (or atleast his body was) but the others?

[dusky bay]

I never got into the lore of the conductors

[dusky bay]

Those sounds of someone talking and weird sounds like someone eating on a body?

[ripe sable]

Isn't that just a crude recreation made from Silk dregs?

[charred nimbus]

Romino is from the first poem of the game, Mizello from Psalm Cylinder and problaby other mentionings, and Ballador is the one who gives you the melody

[dusky bay]

Unraveled

[charred nimbus]

It's more like a amalgamation of dead bugs together with silk

[charred nimbus]

And conductor mizello is a part of it

[dusky bay]

Probably the largest part

[ripe sable]

We did talk to Mizello briefly i think?

[charred nimbus]

We didn't

[gritty fractal]

Romino is the conductor that writes the poem at the start of the game
Mizello is the one who's final surgery is recorded on a cylinder and then becomes host of The Unraveled
Ballador is the last conductor, who gives you part of the threefold melody

[dusky bay]

Also why does everyone hate the unraveled? Is bec of how fat he is and everyone somehow getting hit-?

[charred nimbus]

The Conductor wich we talk that gives melody is Ballador

[ripe sable]

The big guy hidden behind the curtain being fed silk

[charred nimbus]

That's Ballador

[ripe sable]

Oh right

[gritty fractal]

jank hitbox

[dusky bay]

Yea I think it's better to pogo on him or wall jump

The only thing I hated is when he out of the fuck nowhere give me a split second to react to him spawning in the goddam middle

[steep talon]

pogo his head doesnt do damage, or do you mean pogoing his side?

[charred nimbus]

I just find it boring as a boss fight, like i don't actually care for it as a boss

[dusky bay]

Head so you don't get hurt with his hitbox

[steep talon]

i quite like the unravelled fight, I always describe it as Nosk but much better

[ripe sable]

I disliked it because Reaper's first horizontal strike hits the shoulderpiece instead of the silk

[dusky bay]

Wait till we get flying unravelled

[steep talon]

uh-huh. I think you can just regular jump over him or jump and dash

[dusky bay]

Hitbox go brrrrr

[charred nimbus]

You can also spam buzzsaws on the unraveled and call it a day.

[steep talon]

true...

[gritty fractal]

i used pre-nerf conchcutters

[dusky bay]

You mean slaps pins on the ground

[dusky bay]

MY BABIES GOT NERFED? WHAT

[gritty fractal]

hit limit

[steep talon]

i think unravelled is very fun without tools

[dusky bay]

BUT BUT
YOU GOTTA KILL CORNCHFLY FOR IT

[gritty fractal]

dont infinitely pierce

[dusky bay]

How much now >:[

[ripe sable]

Charged attack spam Architect's crest my beloved

[gritty fractal]

i think its 6 hits?

[dusky bay]

Eh it mostly will go through fat people on the 4th

[pure belfry]

Am I the only one who saw the opening poem back before the game came out, and thought "Conductor" Romino meant like a train conductor for some reason instead of obviously a musical one?

[gritty fractal]

for unravelled it was busted because it bounces off the inside of his shield and just keeps drilling inside him

[ripe sable]

I thought the same thing ngl

[charred nimbus]

I didn't even think about Conductors about music or trains, i just tought like, someone who conducts, just like, lead overral

[gritty fractal]

same i forgot music conductor was a thing lol

[ripe sable]

I didn't lay the link because English isn't my main language, and the word for musical conductor is very different in my native language

Here we say "Dirigent"

[charred nimbus]

I have no idea how music works, i think Conductor is Maestro in my language but i'm not sure if they are two different professions

[pure belfry]

Do we know all of Pharloom's Folly btw? I assume if it's not in the game it's somewhere in the files maybe.

[ripe sable]

I think it'd be datamined already

[frosty gate]

Spanish?

[gritty fractal]

whats that? idr it

[charred nimbus]

Portuguese

[ripe sable]

The starting poem

[frosty gate]

Ah, the long lost cousin, can't help you then, it's probably Maestro tho

[pure belfry]

we know the complete version of Elegy for Hallownest because that was in the files for HK I think. I find it strange if Pharloom's Folly is incomplete

[charred nimbus]

Yeah, i think Maestro is the same for Spanish and Portuguese tho

[gritty fractal]

oh right i didnt remember the title of it

[frosty gate]

Maestro for us is more like a Teacher, we call them Director or Director de Orquestra.

[charred nimbus]

That's problaby right for us too, i just don't know shit about music Lmao

[charred nimbus]

I think we just change Director to Diretor

[gritty fractal]

oh and since we were talking about the conductor a bit ago
i think the rune harp ballador had on him when he gets crushed in act 3 is interesting
because it seems to imply the mantle of the conductor was something the weavers did but got the common bug to do instead

[charred nimbus]

That's true actually

The weavers passed their burden to the Conductors after they left

[pure belfry]

Do you think the section of Pharloom's Folly we read is kinda like throwing shade at GMS? Is it even about GMS?

"They see your beauty, so frail and fine. They see your peace woven of faith and toil." This is how the Citadel or Pilgrims or those faithful and believing in it see GMS

"They forget your heart, bound in slumber and servitude. When you wake they shall see your truth. A beast's nature bare to all." This is implies at maybe a darker or unpleasant truth about GMS that Romino thought everyone else was blind to.

It could also just be about the Citadel itself I guess

[frosty gate]

It could be about the Citadel but it sounds exactly like GMS

[pure belfry]

I really hope at some point in the future we get the full poem

[frosty gate]

Silksong's own Journal like Hollow Knight's

[charred nimbus]

Something i never understood about Siksong lore, have people from Pharloom been riding Bell beasts around? or Hornet was just luck to find the Bell beast living in the bellway and using it for travelling?

[pure belfry]

There's a greater sense of the scale of Pharloom's history in this game I think. Like as an example, we learn about 3 dreamers in HK. We don't get much of a sense of how long ago these events exactly were.

It's still very vague in Silksong, but as an example we know there's been a whole line of Architects, Vaultkeepers, and Conductors. We come across living examples of these who were not the originals, and we hear about others. It's implied the roles have passed to many over generations and we're coming to Pharloom not when this has all started, but after it has already been in decline for a very long time.

[blissful halo]

The fact that infrastructure exists implies that the Bellways were being used by a significant number of people.

Perhaps not recently, but at some point in history.

[pure belfry]

I think my favorite moment finding a melody, even tho I think finding and hearing The Architect's Melody was very cool, was hearing the Conductor's Melody from Ballador.

[blissful halo]

But then, if the Bell Beast had been trapped long, it presumably would have died of starvation or thirst. Perhaps it was trapped specifically because Hornet broke free—we've got a room documenting the extent to which GMS's servants went to track down anyone descended from Weavers, often at great cost.

[gritty fractal]

passage of time is something we dont really get a good sense of.
we never get a clear indication of how in-universe time is measured even

because its all underground

humanity developed our systems of telling time because of the relation between the sun and the earth

[royal ferry]

uhh yeah, in my language we call it karmester

[gritty fractal]

so whenever passage of time is brought up in HK its always very vague since a global method of temporal measurement seems to not exist

[pure belfry]

yeah but what I mean is we get a better sense of the actual history even if we don't know an exact timescale. we can piece together a story, events and characters moreso than we could in HK

[ripe sable]

I would say that Silksong has a bit of an easier timeline than Hollow Knight

[heady thorn]

erm where did the void come from

[pure belfry]

I feel like we just see and know a lot more of Silksong's world, and what happens in it, and the roles characters play in it

[ripe sable]

There's also more info on why Pharloom is the way it is, being from when GMS evolved Pharlids to be weavers, and why the weavers imprisoned her, causing her revenge

[whole marsh]

From the trap the caretaker built.

It opens a portal to the void sea, with the hope it’ll consume and snuff out GMS

[rustic tundra]

Do the Shamans have a relationship with void?

[ripe sable]

And why the Weavers fled to Hallownest in the first place

... And maybe why they fled away from Hallownest after

God, Weavers are kind of cowards

[pure belfry]

this cutscene was so insanely cool

[ripe sable]

They seem to worship it

[whole marsh]

Kinda, but not directly. The study it and take an interest in it. But they aren’t directly related. They just think it’s neat and try to harness its power for spells and what not.

[teal drift]

This is my understanding too

It seems shamans like manipulating forces of nature more than worshipping anything in specific imo

Void and soul being their main hoes

[ripe sable]

I have a feeling that they're somehow linked to or connected to The Void because of how drippy the Hermit is, and one of them in Hollow Knight did have a void spell

[teal drift]

Its possible theyre remnants of a kingdom that did worship void but i dont see direct evidence that they worship it

[atomic dirge]

i think he's just drippy cause he's a snail

[teal drift]

Imo snails seem in it for themselves and use any power available

[gritty fractal]

the abyss duh

[teal drift]

Bermit is drippy cuz he old snd probably has a beard

[gritty fractal]

if you are asking in general like the origin of the void
no idea. it seems to have existed as long as there is recorded history

[narrow bridge]

@wheat locust
The relation between the hk and the true silksong ending
||I think that hollow knight ending 5 is the most reasonable, since I think the voids got teleported to pharloom's abyss, also the shade lord was there, and we didn't saw the hollow knight's void. I also think that dream no more ending isn't canon, since the hollow knight turned back into a void and the voids returned to hallownest's abyss and there was no shade lord||

[frosty gate]

Prepare for a debate because there's a lot of arguing that DNM can still be canon

[gritty fractal]

i think DNM is canon since the only glimpse of shade lord that happens is a brief flash from the pov of a concussed hornet

[wheat locust]

The knight is shade Lord though, he is quite literally referred to as so when you acquire the void heart
The form of shade Lord is of all the shades together as one so that can be achieved later
And the Void in Pharloom existed as long as the kingdom possibly even further before, like it did in Hallownest
And yeah, the void is connected to the void so if something goes into the void in Hallownest it can get to the void in Pharloom

[hazy iron]

why do people assume it got teleported instead of destroyed

it seems like a very big stretch

[gritty fractal]

idk why they think its just teleported or why it would teleport to pharloom specifically lol

[frosty gate]

Yeah, Silksong kinda implies that the Everbloom destroys the Void

[wheat locust]

No it doesn't

[gritty fractal]

it does

[wheat locust]

Where?

[hazy iron]

...thats literally what it does in the final dive

[wheat locust]

No?

[hazy iron]

yes

[frosty gate]

That's that you do in the Final Dive, the Void keeps getting repeled

[hazy iron]

either way, its not teleported

[wheat locust]

Repelled not destroyed
Those are two very different words

[gritty fractal]

either way the teleport 'theory' is wrong lol

[frosty gate]

I mean, sure, it still doesn't teleport it

[wheat locust]

Yeah I agree on the fact it doesn't teleport it

[frosty gate]

Still, I agree that ETV is the canon ending, but whether it's the Everbloom one or not, we don't know

[next whale]

Does Pilby go somewhere else after pilgrim's rest or he just disappears?

[narrow bridge]

The knight is the controller of the shade lord with the mix of other shades yeah

But is hallowenest's abyss connected to pharloom's abyss?

[hazy iron]

it could still be dream no more though i feel like

[gritty fractal]

i dont have any reason to believe ETV is the canon one

[hazy iron]

only two it cant be are sealed siblings/THK

[wheat locust]

Void is connected to void

[frosty gate]

Who was Pilbby again?

[hazy iron]

the one that gets the funeral

[next whale]

the little guy in bonebottom, if he leaves before the skull tyrant attack he can survive

[wheat locust]

The little pilgrim?

[frosty gate]

Ah, yeah he just dissappears if he doesn't get killed by ST from what i've heard

[past cypress]

He disappears in Act 3, no corpse tho so he's 100% alive

[narrow bridge]

I think the flower doesn't have enough power to destroy that crazy void
Ngl It makes more sense if it got teleported.
Also why do you think it destroyed?

[next whale]

he goes to pilgrims rest, but apparently once he leaves he cant be found again

[frosty gate]

The Abyss is like the core of the World and the Void is a substance all around.

[hazy iron]

it does exactly that in the final dive

its called the only means to resist the void by the white lady

that implies its very powerful

enough to destroy/repel the void

[frosty gate]

I literally just purifies the void and makes it dissapear, it's very unlikely that it got teleported

[gritty fractal]

"makes more sense if it got teleported" lol

why would you think this way

genuinely

[narrow bridge]

No?
I thought when Hornet did the dive.
The whole void would vanish, but instead it just protected.
I don't think its that powerful

[hazy iron]

it still diddnt teleport

repels void like a magic diving suit but not teleport

[frosty gate]

It doesn't even matter if it got teleported, the ending would still be the same

Where would it even get teleported to?

[narrow bridge]

I said teleport coz the knight and other shades was there in pharloom's abyss
It makes more sense to me

[hazy iron]

the void is the void

[gritty fractal]

the void is all connected

[frosty gate]

Because Void is Void regardless of where it is

[hazy iron]

the shadow creeper hunter's journal heavily implies its there if you go deep enough no matter where you are

all one thing

[whole marsh]

The core or bottom most level of the Hk world is likely just all void sea

It’s literally at the bottom of the world

[frosty gate]

Which is why I think that City of Steel is deep

[narrow bridge]

Hmmmm

I see

[whole marsh]

I don’t think it’s teleported. It looks like it’s zapped out of existence, both in the HK ending, and when the shades wrap around Hornet in SS during the dive.

[narrow bridge]

I am still wondering why the hollow knight's shade wasn't there

[hazy iron]

how did you get to that, as far as i know its only ever mentioned in that one thing at the cradle

[gritty fractal]

city of steel is theorized to be home of the steelheart and their masters

[frosty gate]

I'm considering the dialogues of all people related to the City. specially Jinn and Jiji

[gritty fractal]

there is some connection to the void

[hazy iron]

ah

[frosty gate]

"Some" is an understatement

[gritty fractal]

by some connection i mean some as in something we dont know exactly what

[hazy iron]

then again they kill that guy for the whole thing with the summoned saviour, its not a good connection id think

[whole marsh]

It repels the shades so she can descend safely. When shades try to attack her they are repelled by the ever bloom.

[gritty fractal]

not some as in small amount

[frosty gate]

I'm stretching this out but we know exactly that the Masters are absolutely made of Void and Steel

[past cypress]

Really? I haven't done the Steel Soul content yet, aren't they just metal?

[gritty fractal]

assuming sharpe comes in dlc which he probably will, he is definitely void and steel

[frosty gate]

Neither have I, I'm betting everything on Jinn

[narrow bridge]

Yes Ik
But if the everbloom was powerful
It should clear the whole void

[gritty fractal]

no?

[hazy iron]

magic diving suit

[frosty gate]

It's powerful but you can't clean the whole Void

[whole marsh]

Who would win, 1 bright flower, or an endless sea of darkness?

[frosty gate]

It's like drying the sea

[hazy iron]

keeps it from touching you its not exactly a restraining order

[narrow bridge]

Endless sea of darkness

[whole marsh]

I mean, in theory, if you had enough everblooms and dumped them all in, you may be able to clear out the void.

[hazy iron]

but not enough of them exist to do that

[frosty gate]

Jinn Dialogue after getting the Voidheart

"This It... A rare It. Has not seen many, so vulnerable, but triumphant. Makes Jinn feel a thing... surprise?
Jinn misjudged... The It is not inferior. Perhaps... different? Different to Jinn. More complete? Different... like masters?"

[narrow bridge]

Who would win
1 bright flower or a shade lord with a crazy ammount of voids

[hazy iron]

void isnt plural?

[hazy iron]

could apply more generally to higher beings but i absoultely see it

[whole marsh]

I also like how this retroactively explains the everbloom in HK too. Because on its own it seems so random, why does it zap the void away in that one ending? Turns out TC were likely going to use it to allow us to descend into the void sea to fight a boss (if that kickstarter goal was met). That part of the game was dropped but they repurposed the everbloom into a unique quest, then tied it to a new ending as an Easter egg.

[gritty fractal]

https://cdn.wikimg.net/en/hkwiki/images/8/80/Sharpe_Attack.gif
assuming we get sharpe in dlc we will probably get more info since he is definitely a being of steel and void

[narrow bridge]

Exactly it can't
Thats why In the hollow knight ending the most logical theory that I thought of is the teleport
Simce I think It would cost less power than vanishing a shade lord

[gritty fractal]

???

[hazy iron]

it vanished what was in the real world

[whole marsh]

So this is apparently a kickstarter character. Do we know if the void part was part of the backer’s design, or something TC added in?

[hazy iron]

it diddnt do shit to godhome in the dream realm

[dusky bay]

Tbh all endings are insane
Greyroot and the bad one shock me the most
The true one is just "omg knight!!"

[hazy iron]

so it doesnt do anything to shade lord either

[frosty gate]

After acquiring the King's Brand

"...A King, the tiny It becomes. Jinn knows that mark, but cannot bow.
Jinn's masters are other... minds other... Not order. Not order, they seek."

[sinful nimbus]

No reason to think Sharpe is void its just a black flailing proboscis

[frosty gate]

You can't dry the sea but you can dry a lake

[gritty fractal]

probably tc i dont think the nature of void was something that was made privy to kickstarts beyond "there is an abyss expansion stretch goal"?

[dusky bay]

We know nothing about shade lord except he might be the knight

[narrow bridge]

Hold on
So you mean the shade lord is trapped in godhome 👀?

And can't get out

[frosty gate]

No?

[hazy iron]

godhome is in the dream realm, if void and the siblings can get in, (see both radiance fights) it can get out

as seen in ETV

[frosty gate]

It's not even a thing of getting out, it just isn't there, or rather it's everywhere

[whole marsh]

So, I like to think that the Godhome mode, is what happens after you do the everbloom ending in HK1. It takes place after the main game, so the everbloom could have just yeeted TK back into Godhome and kinda reset things. Only issue is the Godseeker is back in Hallownest during the ending again…

[dusky bay]

Why does hornet care about lace...

[gritty fractal]

i think she sees herself in lace and wants to give her another chance at life

[narrow bridge]

I thought the voids and siblings were a copy on that realm (dream version)

[whole marsh]

She’s not necessarily bad, just born into unfortunate circumstances. Also, saving her would stop GMS from resisting the void and stop its invasion into Pharloom.

[narrow bridge]

Since the knight is the one who have the dream nail

[dusky bay]

Couldnt She just
Kicked her back into the void after gms gave up and died

[gritty fractal]

the knight needs the dream nail to enter the dream because they have a physical body

[whole marsh]

No they are pulled in. Literally everything there is pulled in from the outside.

[frosty gate]

Confessor Jiji after getting Voidheart

"Ooohhhh. My masters would be impressed...
Rare it is for one to come to terms with their regrets so completely, yet you seem to have managed it.
What darkness must one wade through to achieve such a thing?"

[narrow bridge]

Damn wtf 😭

[frosty gate]

Steelmasters are definitely messing with Void

Wouldn't even be surprised if they were Old Snails

[pulsar python]

She doesn't hate Lace, and she also probably does see herself in her

[whole marsh]

Yeah, but like I said. She’s not necessarily a bad guy, just born into unfortunate circumstances.

[narrow bridge]

Yes but what about the other shades

I thought they were a dream version

[pulsar python]

Keep in mind Lace also saved her life earlier despite how disastrous the consequences were

[gritty fractal]

wdym...

"dream version"

[whole marsh]

TK pulls them in in the ending. It summons the void into Godhome to kill Abs Rad.

[frosty gate]

Things that happen in dreams are technically as real as the regular world for Beings who can percieve both

[whole marsh]

That’s why in the ending, void is literally bursting out of the godseeker in the waking world

[runic wraith]

who exactly IS first sinner I didn't really understand their intentions ingame

[dusky bay]

Witch crest is the most weirdest crest ever
And I love it

[gritty fractal]

the voidheart is a point of focus for the void to channel through basically
in both radiance fights the knight is able to unify the void to bring the radiance down.
due to the eldritch and immaterial nature of the void it simply manifests within the dream

[whole marsh]

Yeah, Void is unique in that respect

[narrow bridge]

Its complicated
Like how was the pure vessel there ?
It can't be real
The hollow knight already exist in the real world
But we also see the pure vessel in the godhome dream world

[hazy iron]

It’s like white defender

[pulsar python]

I thought Pure Vessel was Godseeker recreating Prime HK

[vestal swan]

It's just pulling up a memory from thks head

[frosty gate]

That's on account of Godseekers, who bring things to their Prime basically

[frosty gate]

It is, more or less

[whole marsh]

I think it’s more like they pulled in a version of THK at its prime by “atuning” to it

[vestal swan]

It is their prime but it is in the past so it's a memory of thk

[gritty fractal]

its basically the same thing hornet does with the song of the deep in silksong

[narrow bridge]

So its still a separated version from the real world

[gritty fractal]

i feel like this should have been obvious given you fight several characters in godhome that are already dead

[narrow bridge]

That's what I am saying

[vestal swan]

It's not like you're not fighting the real thk, they are visiting in a dream

The same way Sly is back in his prime

[frosty gate]

The thing that Godseekers do with Attuning is basically pray to a "God". In this world it seems that the more people look up to a thing, the more powerful it gets and since the Godseekers were a Hivemind, there's probably a huge amount of them praying in unison to a "God"

[pulsar python]

The only character we see show up as not their prime is Hornet, and that could just be her resisting attunement at first (plus her actual prime does show up later anyway)

[frosty gate]

That said, not all Gods can become Higher Beings, that seems to be exclusive

[vestal swan]

They aren't really gods to begin with that's just their really loose use of the word

[frosty gate]

She was at her prime, back then

[vestal swan]

I think they mean hornet 1 versus hornet 2

[frosty gate]

I know, but through attunement they try to make them "Gods" for a while

[frosty gate]

Oh but those were just tests

[vestal swan]

Which is technically true but god home logic

[pulsar python]

Yeah I mean Hornet Protector vs Sentinel

[frosty gate]

Yeah, they were just testing Ghost

Remember Godseeker doesn't like Ghost and thinks its not worthy

[hazy iron]

She is also the only one aware its in the dream realm

[gritty fractal]

the champions summoned to godhome may be called "gods" in some respect but really they are just stepping stones for the godseekers to reach for actual higher beings

[mental vale]

I'm probably late to this realization- but it seems that all area's except for Deep Docks on the bottom of the map are themed around Bones. There's Bone Bottom and the Marrow are Obvious- but there's also Far Field with it's burning skull/rising lava challenge, and also the huge carcass where you find the Sprint Master

[frosty gate]

Which is fair ngl

[vestal swan]

She's not the only one aware

[frosty gate]

Who else was aware aside from her and Grimm? I can't remember

[pulsar python]

Wormways is also all made of bones

[gritty fractal]

the entire region on the bottom left part of the map is a territory called the bonelands
which includes wormways moss grotto and marrow

[vestal swan]

Sheo might not realize he's dreaming but he sort of understands his surroundings
Grimm is fully aware
And I think there's one other

Oh wait I think the other one was hornet lol

[silver spire]

hornets aware as well as grimm, and white lady hides her power

[pulsar python]

Grimm makes sense to be aware, he essentially does the same thing for the Nightmare Heart

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight knows too

[vestal swan]

No way

[mental vale]

What is the deal with all those bones anyways- I understand the smaller skale Bones, probably from the Pilgrims who fell on the journey, but what about the much larger skeletons?

[silver spire]

🤯

[frosty gate]

Does Sheo have a Dialogue or something

[whole marsh]

Ok so I think I can explain it. Everything, besides the void and shades, was pulled into Godhome by the godseekers via attunement, TK helps with this by fighting the in the waking word and I guess helps transfer their memories into Godhome so godseekers can attune them.

During the fight with Abs Rad, The Knight itself, summons the Void, not the godseekers. Because TK summons the void, it manifests differently than everything else in Godhome, and is actually physically there. After The Shade Lord kills Abs Rad, the void consumes all of Godhome and the physically breaks out of the godseeker’s body in the waking world.

[gritty fractal]

larger creatures?

[pulsar python]

Pale King is also hiding his power, he's been playing dead for years!

[vestal swan]

Sheo is commenting on the god seeker and his surroundings and is painting them, he might not be aware of he's dreaming but he's definitely thinking this is a weird looking creature with a ritual going on

It's like being able to wake up and remember the dream level of awareness, but not knowing your asleep at the moment

[sinful nimbus]

"What is a god, if not an artist?"
What is bro waffling about

This is why I hate Sheo

This is the gay representation we get?

[pulsar python]

Bro needs to talk to his boyfriend abt some issues

[terse warren]

Why's your new PFP the one that doesn't shower

[sinful nimbus]

Slabfly defenders rise up

[vestal swan]

Did any of them shower, they hawk up loogies that look like tar

[terse warren]

They're literally the most boring ones

[sinful nimbus]

They don't shower they're slaves in prison 🥀

[terse warren]

Could've at LEAST been a Wardenfly

Even though everybody knows Freshflies are where it's at

[pulsar python]

We've got a suicidal guy and an artist with a god complex vs A fake idgafer and a dead guy, who wins the yaoi off

[spark valve]

that means their entire bloodline should end apparently

[vestal swan]

Speaking of fresh, do we have any info on the huntress if you feed the babies for her does she just run away or what

[terse warren]

No clue, maybe there's Needolin there and I never checked

[twin ocean]

When hornet becomes weaver queen, in the "normal" ending will she use her powers for good, because if she doesn't are the threads controlling her to some extent? it is literally grandmother silks soul absorbed.

[frosty gate]

I don't think the Knight does that knowingly.
Since TK won against AbsRad, labeled "God of Gods" by Godseeker, then TK becomes "God of Gods", the Highest of Beings in Godhome, bringing the Knight to its Peak. By doing so, it breaks their shell and Void gets out. That Void basically grows exponentially and brings all shades together to kill Rad because Void REALLY hates Rad

[vestal swan]

Nqh the room is like totally empty

[sinful nimbus]

Powdered can you believe Huntress didn't in fact end up cooking the fleas

[terse warren]

Well she did say she wanted to see them grow up so she's probably just out hunting with them

[sinful nimbus]

Its so over

[spark valve]

no she will not use her powers for good

[twin ocean]

And why?

[vestal swan]

She basically gets corrupted by the overwhelming power you can see her immediately start to take over a ton of bugs

[pulsar python]

Unfortunately she continues the haunting on her own

[sinful nimbus]

GMS's will being bound to Hornet and Hornet's innate desire to control (Because she's half wyrm) results in her likely doing the same thing GMS did

[whole marsh]

Like in Act 3? She’s still there. But gets replaced by one of her kids if you don’t finish her quest.

[frosty gate]

Is it the Part Wyrm or the Part Weaver?

[spark valve]

could be either really

[gritty fractal]

wait she actually disappears? huh i kept checking in on her and nothing changed

i know that if you fail to complete her quest before act 3 the babies hatch and eat her but thats all

[silver spire]

oh so thats why i got runtfeast instead of broodfeast

[vestal swan]

Yeah it feels really lame that if you successfully feed her kids you don't get an answer to what happened at all

[pulsar python]

Weaver's desire to take control in the first place, Pale being side probably makes her desperate to spread that control further

[whole marsh]

Isn’t it implied her babies ate the food you brought her and left?

[vestal swan]

Yeah but she's also gone so there's no confirmation that she didn't also get eaten

[frosty gate]

Pretty much

[whole marsh]

If they eat her instead, they all leave except 1

[twin ocean]

How didn't hornet ever get corrupted by silk or abyss, i mean she's clearly not immune to it as grandmother silk 3 damage attack is silk.

is it weaver thing

[vestal swan]

I never thought about the "pull bugs into their thrall" taking over
Hornet really did kind of evolve into a wyrm, that's not an ending I expected

[sinful nimbus]

She is not haunted

[frosty gate]

Strong Shell

[whole marsh]

Really? I could have sworn she was still there in Act 3. I must have misremembered. Either way, doesn’t she mention wanting to watch the go out and hunt & grow? She probably left so they wouldn’t eat her and only eat the meat you got and then kept an eye on them as they went out into the world

[sinful nimbus]

Getting hit by void does end up taking some of your silk though

[mental vale]

I'll also say it's very thematically appropriate that the region of Pharloon is Literally built on top of a foundation of bones lolll

[twin ocean]

exactly how doesn't she get lost hornet

[vestal swan]

It does? I thought I was losing my mind

[sinful nimbus]

She hasn't spent nearly as much time in the abyss as Lace has

[vestal swan]

It's actually even weirder because you can see the borders and the top all have connections to the wastes, the entire region looks like it was originally an ant hill

[twin ocean]

the threads dont affect her, HOW ???

[gritty fractal]

it is mentioned that the silk is deeply intertwined with the bugs of pharloom on essentially genetic level (somehow) and thats how the haunting can take place even though GMS is in a weakened state

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[twin ocean]

THE ABYSS STRANDS MY FELLA

[sinful nimbus]

She isn't haunted by Grandmother Silk

The void affliction is the void meddling with the haunting

[vestal swan]

Her thread is not connected to the god-controlling everything, she says her silk is her own in the fight against sentinel, declaring that her control over her own silk is more than enough to withstand The haunting

[twin ocean]

we clearly see they're coming out from the ground which means grandmother silk is keeping not very much control as the abyss is way stronger. but she still has some power to a degree

[clear cloak]

They’re descendants of bugs who were experimented on, forcefully injected with silk in an attempt to create immortality, right?

[vestal swan]

Yeah pretty much

Well not exactly forcefully

Maybe in the early experiments

But the goal was immortality so a lot of people would have signed up

[frosty gate]

They kinda suceeded if you think about it

Being undead counts for immortality

[vestal swan]

I mean they succeeded without the undead haunting part

[clear cloak]

Well, not if the goal was to make an immortal choir to keep Hornet’s grandma asleep

[vestal swan]

They didn't fuck up like the sanctum

[gritty fractal]

yeah i get that its just that i think its really baffling that silk is somehow passed down...

is silk microplastics

[regal crow]

Anyone got a good lore video?

[vestal swan]

You don't pass down microplastics....

[clear cloak]

That’s why they did it, right?

[frosty gate]

All lore youtubers got sacrificed so now we don't got anyone

[regal crow]

What

[vocal compass]

Rip moss🎋

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah its great social commentary