sk-lore

[spare pendant]

Karmelita, Khann, Nyleth, Clover Dancers

[mystic fiber]

the spirit of a bug, or whatever you call it. i believe is made up with two parts. essence is their memory, their personality. and soul ,the white liquidy goo, is the substance that carry the memory

[tacit lake]

nyleth

[spare pendant]

Also palestag

[plain ruin]

Does First Sinner also count?

[mystic fiber]

my head canon theory

[zinc pivot]

Not exactly dream boss, more like an awaken memory form

[tacit lake]

so groal js eats ppl

[plain ruin]

Since you don’t die during that fight

[mystic fiber]

not groal, he stole the souls from a snail shaman

[zinc pivot]

We were debating
It has signs of being a mindscape sequence
But you also use up tools

[tacit lake]

also, is true that everything that uses silk (not control) is a weaver?

[mystic fiber]

i dont think so

[zinc pivot]

Generate silk

[spare pendant]

Only weavers and GMS can produce silk

Or it can be synthesized, like silk flies

[mystic fiber]

doubt

[zinc pivot]

Silk can be used as you can see the choristors and the grand reeds

[mortal birch]

she sends you out of the fight to try again on defeat she's testing you

[mystic fiber]

in whiteward silk siphon room, they make silk fies by extracting the soul or silk from bugs

[tacit lake]

yeah, i was wondering if grand reeds were weavers cuz they use thread storm

[zinc pivot]

Again there’s a whole messy angry debate over it
There are people who still thinks hornet is hallucinating

[spare pendant]

I mentioned that

[dark rune]

found something interesting in the hunter's journal

[mystic fiber]

so i think with proper tools , non-weaver bugs can make silk somehow.

[zinc pivot]

Yeah proper tool being a weavers fucking silk organ

It counts as a tool if a filament ripped off a colony of electric anemones counts

[dark rune]

there were a lot trying to get hornet, a lot more than the ones bringing her to pharloom

[pliant meadow]

Yeah, she killed a lot of them

[dark rune]

so they probably had to sneak up on her

[mortal birch]

how many envoys do you think they sent to get hornet

[zinc pivot]

I wonder how they do that in Hallownest
With their giant ass cage especially

[dark rune]

id think 20-50 died

[tacit lake]

i wanna do act 3 so bad

[zinc pivot]

Probably an entire army worth

I trust in hornets pre nerf thread storm

Because Team Cherry fucked it up

[dark rune]

is the nameless town on the same relative height of the howling cliffs?

[waxen forum]

The bugs sent after hornet was a ‘full Chamber’

[mortal birch]

i also don't know if we've ever really got any lore on what GMS endgame was with the weavers just use them as silk machines for lace?

[waxen forum]

So however many that is

[waxen forum]

They were her original ‘daughters’

But since they betrayed her she went with silk beings

[zinc pivot]

I think weavers are bound to GMS already

[pliant meadow]

Do it then

[mortal birch]

no but i'm saying why send out for weavers

what does she want with them

[ebon silo]

Ngl if ETV was canon I think sending a couple thousand fourth chorus would not be enough if the hollow knight was around with her or unless he just happened to went to another place leaving hornet alone

[tacit lake]

this fleas man

[zinc pivot]

Maybe she wants revenge
Remove the last of their bloodline

[ebon silo]

And silk?

[waxen forum]

I’m pretty sure that was the citadel actually

They needed silk for longevity

[zinc pivot]

There is no weaver corpse though

[ebon silo]

Binded assumingly

[zinc pivot]

Yeah by GMS
Because i dont think bugs can bind them

[pliant meadow]

Hey man idk what to tell you, you can look up the locations or you can keep running around aimlessly

[ebon silo]

It's very best to assume no ordinary but can bind silk other than GMS and her daughters

[tacit lake]

how powerful would hornet be

[plain ruin]

Kinda strong

[ebon silo]

Right she's half weaver half wyrm and she binded an entire pale being

She could create her own kingdom if she wanted to

[spare pendant]

weaver queen hornet at full awakening would likely be stronger than the pale king

[whole holly]

would she have Different Crest, like Crest of God or Weaver or something else

[zinc pivot]

Hornet is like 1.5 Pale being 0.5 ascended life form

[ebon silo]

Though we still don't know the capability of wyrms for pale king the dude is losing he already shed off his prime form or something

[zinc pivot]

That’s like holy shit

[whole holly]

Weaver Queen Hornet vs Wyrm form Pale King

[ebon silo]

There is no way the wyrm form of pale king is losing isn't wyrms practically the more higher than pale beings

[whole holly]

i hope in DLCs we get another crest

[ebon silo]

Like pale king could just eat hornet if he wanted to

[mystic fiber]

crest is basically the natrue of a bug, so she's definitly as strong as GMS at least. that is to say ,not very strong.

[zinc pivot]

I wonder if wyrm pale king can breath soul laser

It would arguably look badass

[ebon silo]

So a moving death star?

[whole holly]

i believe Pale Wyrm was not just huge bug species but also higher beings, Pale Wyrm has higher than other ones

[zinc pivot]

Heck yeah

[ebon silo]

Wyrms were the majority of making civilizations

[whole holly]

i hope we meet another Wyrm that transfigured, i want to learn more

[mortal birch]

Herrah and all the other dreamers were literally just big bugs with big burdens but they weren't extraordinary i don't think

[ebon silo]

Probably just slightly above bugs

We do not know the capability of the dreamers

[whole holly]

yeah, other than herrah being Weaver

[mortal birch]

I could see being a weaver being an argument for being slighter stronger than a bug.

direct tribes ascended by pale beings like the moths and weavers are likely a little tougher than your regular roach

[whole holly]

we known exactly nothing about lurien, Monomon has atleast information about her and quirrel

[ebon silo]

Well yes they were created by gods

[zinc pivot]

Radiance isn’t pale though

[heavy gyro]

the regular bugs in hallownest were also ascended by a higher being

[zinc pivot]

Lurien is AristoKratt

[mortal birch]

not all of them apparently

some were born smart

[zinc pivot]

Hes kratt but with money

[ebon silo]

Just a higher being I think just. particular one who lives outside of the physical world but she is capable of M.A.D

[mortal birch]

wdym

[pliant meadow]

The radiance is never described as pale

[zinc pivot]

Moths are made by radiance
And Radiance is just your average higher being

Oops

[spare pendant]

Pale beings and dream beings are different types of gods

[mortal birch]

I am going to say right here and now pale beings and higher beings are the exact same thing

[spare pendant]

That is objectively untrue

[mortal birch]

not subscribing to this woke

[spare pendant]

Not even wyrms are all pale

And there are pale lesser beings

[pliant meadow]

Well okay that one we don't know

[spare pendant]

We do, the pale king is described specifically as "pale wyrm"

[whole holly]

moth tribe was created by Radiance, Weavers were ascended from Pharlids by GMS

[whole holly]

we have no evidence what other wyrms look like, no reason to assume they are all pale

[mortal birch]

yes true but what sort of world is this where we say radience isn't a god

[whole holly]

Pale Beings are Higher Beings that are Pale

[spare pendant]

Paleness is only tangentially related to actual appearance

[zinc pivot]

We do have PK being Wyrm capitalized though

[whole holly]

average? she is different level of Higher Being

[pliant meadow]

But maybe there are others? I really just don't think we can definitively say anything abt wyrms since we only ever know about one (blackwyrm doesn't count)

[mortal birch]

kind of like a subclass?

[pliant meadow]

Exactly

[whole holly]

well, yes

[spare pendant]

I said they're not all pale, not that none are pale

[pliant meadow]

Okay yeah

[whole holly]

at this point it game, this is most information we have

[mortal birch]

this point bro it's over there's nothing left

dlc will have no lore you've heard it here first

[pliant meadow]

Hey maybe we'll get more lore in dlc (cope)

[spare pendant]

We know of three "types" of higher beings (dream beings, pale beings, void beings) and a few beings who may be higher but lie outside those categories (herald)

[mortal birch]

die. /j

[pliant meadow]

Don't even get me started on the nightmare realm bro

[zinc pivot]

The whole wyrm thing does have this problem
Kingsoul dialogue reads
Soul of Wyrm
Soul of Root
Heart of Void

[spare pendant]

I'm counting NMH as dream being, even though the dream realm is separate

[pliant meadow]

What's the problem here?

[ebon silo]

Though atleast the gods of gods are on OUR side

[pliant meadow]

NMH? Do you mean NKG?

[spare pendant]

nightmare heart

[pliant meadow]

Ah

[mortal birch]

is the higher being he worships right?

like he's not literally the nightmare heart

[spare pendant]

NKG is the avatar of the nightmare heart

[zinc pivot]

Being a wyrm is quite special in of itself from this dialogue
And this instance of wyrm we know is a pale being

[mortal birch]

yeah something like that

[pliant meadow]

Well it's likely that NKG is a 'vessel' for the nightmare heart

[ebon silo]

NKG is a vessel I think? Avatar what sylent said

Kinda the point of the ritual

[pliant meadow]

But what's the problem with this?

[zinc pivot]

An argument stated here is that not all wyrms are pale

[spare pendant]

How does that relate

[zinc pivot]

If the soul of Wyrm doesn’t need to be specified as Pale Wyrm, it could be considered that being Wyrm equates to being Pale

[ebon silo]

Mmm cheeseburger I meant what do you guys think of the blackwyrm do you think it's a location or an actual wyrm

[mortal birch]

Bilewyrm

[pliant meadow]

Well but there are also multiple roots (greyroot & white lady), but (from what we know) the white lady is a pale being, so this doesn't really come off as a problem to me

[whole holly]

what category does Unn fall into?

[mortal birch]

Green being

[ebon silo]

acid guy

[pliant meadow]

I always thought it was a corpse with a battle at it

[spare pendant]

Unn has control over dreams; Greenpath was made out of a dream

[whole holly]

she is yeah, Pale Beings only has relevance because there are multiple

[zinc pivot]

It could also be that greyroot is just a name, not a literal species name

[whole holly]

but she herself is physical higher being

[spare pendant]

She is physical but her power comes from the drealm realm, somehow

[heavy gyro]

whispering roots are another type of root

[ebon silo]

Do you guys think the 5 white knights would be able to successfully infiltrate the citadel

[zinc pivot]

Zemer could probably destroy them
Based on Mystic Zemer

[past cypress]

Hegemol is gonna bring that whole thing down with one swing

[zinc pivot]

Yeah im joking its a modded thing

[whole holly]

but it is weird for her to be in same category as Higher Beings who exist exclusively in Dream Realm, idon't think she is Dream Being, i don't agree with your characterization

[spare pendant]

Okay.

[whole holly]

or categorization

[zinc pivot]

I guess all higher beings are ascended and has a place in higher planes like dream plane

[mental vale]

Dung Sentinel would Solo everything while crashing through the route from Bilewater

[ebon silo]

I feel like it would only take isma to take it down like go from underworks then just throw acid at the core like fking thermite and stop everything then work up to the higher areas

Mission impossible ahh

[whole holly]

she is Green Being, Green Mother refereed to as such in-game

[zinc pivot]

Muckroaches getting anorexia from all the shit in their water

[past cypress]

They're putting maggots in the water that turn the Green Princes gay

[ebon silo]

Hegemol would prob just one shot the fourth chorus's

[spare pendant]

There is no pale realm

[zinc pivot]

I said dream plane

[ebon silo]

Also it's implied hegemol fled out of hallownest at some point maybe in some SS DLC we will eventually see him? But probably not

[spare pendant]

Yes, but how does this relate to all higher beings

[tacit lake]

finally

[ebon silo]

Wrong channel

[tacit lake]

mb twin, also, how does the needolin void work?

[ebon silo]

It's like a guitar

You play a melody it does something what else

[tacit lake]

nah cuz im surprised he js used her needolin and summoned a portal to the void

[ebon silo]

Helped by the snail shamans that is

[zinc pivot]

So they can influence reality through dream realm too

[spare pendant]

No?

[tacit lake]

who?

[whole holly]

they said all higher beings have access to it but GMS is yet to be confirmed

[spare pendant]

Unn is the only physical higher being shown to have influence over the drealm realm

[zinc pivot]

White Lady too, to an extent

[spare pendant]

That's speculation

[whole holly]

Pale King has White Palace in Dream Realm

[spare pendant]

We don't know how he did that

[ebon silo]

....was bro skipping dialogues the entire time

[zinc pivot]

Bro didn’t even look at the character names

[sinful nimbus]

But he did do it

[zinc pivot]

Go back to what hole you crawl from

[whole holly]

however he did it, it shows his capability related to dream realm, i doubt he asked unn or radiance

[spare pendant]

Or he got someone else to do it, like the moth tribe

[sinful nimbus]

That's baseless

[whole holly]

that's speculation

[sinful nimbus]

There are also no moths in the palace to create stuff like path of pain

[spare pendant]

It's no more speculation than him doing it with his own power

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[spare pendant]

It just isn't.

[sinful nimbus]

His entire schtick is also altering minds with his beacon

And Kingsmoulds use essence and are his creation

[spare pendant]

Enlightenment is different from controlling dreams

[sinful nimbus]

He is altering the minds (dreams) of his subjects

[spare pendant]

He bestows a mind onto primitive bugs of hallownest, he doesn't alter anyone's minds

[small gate]

the white palace is about the only evidence of the pale king having direct access to the dream realm so its not unfair to think its just not part of this element

his*

[sinful nimbus]

"Minds expanded"

[sinful nimbus]

Its not

But White Palace in and of itself is proof he was proficient in dream realm magic

[flint wadi]

verdania is healing ❤️‍🩹 🍀

yes this is real check public beta

[small gate]

thats not what it proves

[foggy fractal]

oh interesting

[small gate]

what it proves is that the dream realm was accessible to the pale king somehow

[spare pendant]

It's just not lol

[ebon silo]

Imagine you are a wyrm your happy and shit and decided to make a civilization fuck yeah it works then suddenly the unsuspecting light kills your kingdom and you then proceed to make a bazzilion children just for them to die and then die of regret like I think the law of equivalent change truly does exist

[small gate]

the 'how' is still missing, but also basically doesnt matter

[sinful nimbus]

He was capable of moving the palace into the dream realm, locking it behind a very impressive dream seal, and altering the dream itself with weird places like Path of Pain (The saws are also likely dream realm addons)

[small gate]

dreams still arent considered part of his powers

[sinful nimbus]

How

[whole holly]

it is more unlikely that moth tribe put white palace in dream realm rather than Higher Being being able to do it

[spare pendant]

Somebody was capable of it and did it on his will. Whether that was him, or one of his followers, is up to question.

[sinful nimbus]

Suggesting it was one of his followers is baseless

[spare pendant]

One has been demonstrated to have dream powers, the other has not

[sinful nimbus]

Path of Pain was also definitively not one of his followers, what did a royal retainer create it?

[ebon silo]

It could be just from the moth tribe who was asked by the pale king or something

[spare pendant]

So is assuming he did it himself. We just don't know.

[sinful nimbus]

Its his palace

[spare pendant]

And?

[sinful nimbus]

He's also shown to have dream powers in other places

[spare pendant]

When?

[small gate]

where

[sinful nimbus]

Path of Pain, Kingsmoulds, The Beacon, etc

You'd know if you read the conversation

[tacit lake]

what do you think 😭

[small gate]

he basically had to manually convert people to his rule to make the radiance be forgotten

[sinful nimbus]

What

[small gate]

he didnt send people to the dream realm to kill the radiance, he created a vessel to contain it

[spare pendant]

• Path of Pain is the same situation; could be someone else.
• Kingsmoulds are void constructs.
• There is no relation between Enlightenment and the Dream Realm.

[sinful nimbus]

Rad can't be killed without Void Heart

[ebon silo]

Quick give me the names of the snail shamans

[small gate]

source?

[sinful nimbus]

Are you suggesting a royal retainer created path of pain

Kingsmoulds use essence commands

He expanded the minds of his subjects, minds are dreams

[tacit lake]

idk the old lady and idk

[whole holly]

how so, to extent every hallownest Higher Being has relation to Dreams in Godhome when we visit their rooms dream particles are present, don't compare it to small dream particles when dream nailing it, in their respective rooms dream particles are their signature color

[small gate]

source?

[spare pendant]

I am suggesting that he could have gotten somebody else to create path of pain.

[sinful nimbus]

Dreamnail their mould

[ebon silo]

Holy shit replay the entire game

[sinful nimbus]

There is no one else in the palace besides royal retainers

[tacit lake]

why 😭

[ebon silo]

Free soul though I'll give them that

[whole holly]

Kingmoulds needed Essence and Soul to imprint upon Void or whatever it is stated in game

[spare pendant]

This is conjecture. The game never draws a relation between enlightenment or sapience and the dream realm.

[zinc pivot]

I believe he does have some sort of dream realm power
Remember that Pure Vessel gotta channel Radiance enough to seal her somehow
And she’s in the dream realm

[sinful nimbus]

Minds are dreams

By altering them on a wide scale he demonstrates proficience in dreams to great capacity

[spare pendant]

We don't necessarily see the whole palace, and they may have died or left (especially if they have dream magic)

[twin dragon]

chat this is peak

[sinful nimbus]

This is baseless

[twin dragon]

Will we find verdania?

[spare pendant]

This is conjecture. Stop pretending your headcanons are anything but.

[small gate]

that seems like they have some impact or connection to the dream realm, sure

[sinful nimbus]

How is that conjecture

He did objectively alter a great amount of dreams

[mental vale]

To their credit- a decent chunk of characters in Silksong have very vauge name titles that appear when you talk to them and that don't clarify later (like the ones that are just named "Pilgrim" with an adjective)

[spare pendant]

The existence of such a possibility debunks your evidence as proof.

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[small gate]

thats still not the same as implying they have the same access, or influence on the dream realm

[spare pendant]

The game never connects this feat to dreams.

[sinful nimbus]

OK but basic logic can

"Minds" are dreams and he altered minds therefore he altered dreams

[small gate]

thats

[twin dragon]

Not rlly?

[small gate]

not logic

[spare pendant]

This is abductive reasoning, which isn't appropriate in a lore discussion

[small gate]

thats an a priori

[sinful nimbus]

What

[twin dragon]

Dreams seem to be a representation of something

[sinful nimbus]

Bro is arguing against basic logic

[twin dragon]

GPZ's statue has no mind

[small gate]

"minds are dreams" is a starting point that you are assuming, not something thats part of the worlds logic

[twin dragon]

It only represents what Bretta sees zote as

[spare pendant]

I'm arguing against that abductive reasoning is relevant here. Abduction doesn't find proof. The only branch of logic that deals in proof is deductive reasoning.

[mental vale]

This is a setting where litteral souls and magic are canon and real- and also some things work on a little cartoon logic from time to time. So I think it's fair to assume some logic is not consistant with what we experience IRL

[sinful nimbus]

We have proof that he altered minds

Minds are dreams therefore he altered dreams

[whole holly]

it is still product of bretta's mind, therefore a mind

[small gate]

youre spinning your wheels

[spare pendant]

We know he expanded minds and we know that the dream realm is associated with minds. That's it.

[sinful nimbus]

🥴

[twin dragon]

Product and THE mind isn't the same

[obsidian quail]

it is far more of a logical leap to assume PK can’t do anything with dreams, Dream Realm is just the realm of consciousness which we know is PK’s area of expertise

[sinful nimbus]

Entering the dream realm is considered accessing a mind by the game

That is what quirrel and seer say

[small gate]

unn and the radiance have no mentions of expanding minds and they have more connection to the dream realm than the pale king

[sinful nimbus]

So

[obsidian quail]

yeah that’s a Wyrm thing

[small gate]

he clearly can do something

thats not really the point

[whole holly]

but they are inherently tied is my opinion

[obsidian quail]

what

[gentle aspen]

are you just disagreeing to disagree

[ebon silo]

I think gaster did it but idk you guys tell me the whole white palace transportation is kinda ish you know

[twin dragon]

Tied, but not the same

[spare pendant]

If he has power over the dream realm then you introduce the question of why he was so powerless against the Radiance.

[small gate]

the issue is the assumption that all higher beings (and also PK) have an access to the dream realm

[foggy fractal]

hello jojoker

[spare pendant]

Excuse me?

[whole holly]

never said they were same

[obsidian quail]

because the idea of radiance spreads to bugs like a pandemic which is hard to counter

[gentle aspen]

Their abilities are incompatible

[obsidian quail]

especially for someone who wants a functioning kingdom

[small gate]

shes still killable in the dream realm

[twin dragon]

Radiance's blight spreads physically

[gentle aspen]

With void, yea

[small gate]

it doesnt, it spreads mentally

[spare pendant]

I'm not saying it's unexplainable, but it's more you have to explain (and thus justify...) than if he simply doesn't have such a power.

[foggy fractal]

isn't there for me
maybe you had to clear the lore tablet thingy ?

[small gate]

the infection is just the physical manifestation of it

[twin dragon]

But it does however manifest physically

[sinful nimbus]

Entering the dream realm clearly isn't an issue for PK

[small gate]

how do you know this

[sinful nimbus]

Because he's in the dream realm

[whole holly]

i obviously meant related to it, nobody in channel is arguing Dream and Mind are literally same, they are figuratively tied to each other

[ebon silo]

How did void got into the radiance place when we fight her? I forgot

[small gate]

this is your assumption

[obsidian quail]

i think it requires more assumptions to say PK can’t control dream realm on his own

[sinful nimbus]

No it is not

[gentle aspen]

we find his dead body in the dream realm

[flint wadi]

are you on public beta? die
like actually die it updates the world that way

[sinful nimbus]

Play the game vro he is literally in the dream realm 😭

[gentle aspen]

of which we get the other piece of kingsoul from

[foggy fractal]

oh ok thanks brb

[spare pendant]

That doesn't mean it's not an issue for him.

[small gate]

yeah

[zinc pivot]

I assume its because its in hollow knights void head

[twin dragon]

Plus the infection affects a lil bit more than just the minds of whoever is infected

[obsidian quail]

he’s got his own dream realm aesthetic and everything

[sinful nimbus]

He has access to the dream realm wym

[spare pendant]

How?

[small gate]

that doesnt mean its natural to him

[gentle aspen]

dreamers can literally force the knight into the dream realm but the guy who deals with expanding minds and had his entire palace transported into the realm suddenly can’t?

[sinful nimbus]

"Maybe there's a random moth in the white palace that created Path of Pain and the kingsmoulds and left the palace dream later"

[whole holly]

we have to assume it is issue for him which requires proof, do you have proof?

[mental vale]

I would say as far as we know- Bretta dreaming up a version of Zote is not litterally creating a new conciousness, and is basically her imaginary friend- more an extention of her will than Zotes.

But then there's the Radiance maintaining the means to exist solely through belief and existing through minds, lending credence that to an extent, the idea of people/gods itself can manifest and become real.

[spare pendant]

Even the Knight, who can demonstrably enter the dream realm, can't do it with no issues

[gentle aspen]

It requires more assumptions to assert he doesn’t

[twin dragon]

We do know that radiance was material at one point

[ebon silo]

Wait what the fuck happened to bretta anyway

[gentle aspen]

No she wasn’t

[obsidian quail]

sometimes i think we deny our eyes and we overthink it

[sinful nimbus]

"PK couldn't access the dream realm because he didn't kill Radiance" is what I was trying to debunk

[spare pendant]

There just isn't enough to say that he can.

[obsidian quail]

occam’s razor

[whole holly]

she left hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

He clearly could've entered the dream realm to scrap with Radiance because he is in the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

There is plenty you’re just ignoring it

[foggy fractal]

nah still ain't there

[spare pendant]

We don't have to assume anything?

[small gate]

you dont have to assert anything regarding to the pale kings access to the dream real, him being proefficient or not is not the POINT

[twin dragon]

She was quite literally sealed away in a dream

[gentle aspen]

That doesn’t mean she was physical at some point

[spare pendant]

I'm not ignoring anything lol

[sinful nimbus]

What are you even waffling about at this point

I don't have to assert it but I am because its true

[twin dragon]

And her blight manifests physically

[whole holly]

you are assuming guy in dream realm can't enter dream realm on his own, and that he has issues entering it

[spare pendant]

I'm countering your assumption that he can

[flint wadi]

i also updated the map prior by uncovering pious isamour so maybe map updating affects it as well

are you sure youre on public beta

[gentle aspen]

I mean you’re randomly asserting that someone else put his palace in the dream realm

[foggy fractal]

yep

[gentle aspen]

you’re not countering anything it’s just saying “nuh uh”

[spare pendant]

I'm not asserting it. I'm just saying it's another possibility.

[small gate]

the POINT is that the game doesnt ever associate the two deeply nor does it posit that other higher beings have the same access to the dream realm because they are higher beings, which was the original argunment

[flint wadi]

are there any areas on your save that you mightve missed that could result in a map update

[foggy fractal]

quit and exit too, still interesting though

[spare pendant]

You do not get to claim something and then argue that one must either agree or prove why they disagree.

[foggy fractal]

nah I'm on a 100% file
there's probably a secret here or there but it'd take forever to find

[obsidian quail]

every higher being we know of seems to be able to do something in the realm of consciousness outside of physical world i think

[mortal birch]

Pale king didn't attack the radiance beacuse he knew she'd kill him

[small gate]

yes

[twin dragon]

So how exactly does the infection manifest physically from an immaterial god

[flint wadi]

could be that, it only updated for me after i updated my map

[small gate]

like, magic, scoob

[mental vale]

Ockhams Razor is tricky and sticky thing to use in regards to real people's personality and motives we don't know- Let alone fictional characters who exist for just a few sparce moments and scenes in a story from a world very alien to our own- despite it's similarities.

[small gate]

huh

[gentle aspen]

It’s really not

[small gate]

what could they mean by this

[sinful nimbus]

Or he knew he couldn't kill her

[spare pendant]

Okay, so your claim is that it is completely impossible for others to have transported the white palace?

[mortal birch]

Do we know how TPK died and if the radience played any part in it?

[twin dragon]

Radiance would mop the floor with the pale king if he were to confront her in a dream

[zinc pivot]

Void/Regret

[spare pendant]

Pale King is implied to have died either to grief or void, but we don't know exactly how

[mortal birch]

i think it's less he couldn't enter the dream realm and more he couldn't confront the radience

[obsidian quail]

who would be cracked enough to put PK and his palace in something

[zinc pivot]

Pick your darkness

[sinful nimbus]

Moths and Shamans are the only ones who could've done so, neither of which are indicate to have been involved unlike the Pale King

[mortal birch]

before or after the radiance started infecting people?

[abstract rivet]

bro i swear some ppl make the most crazy unreal theory ever to an super obvious info to overcomplicate then when we correct them, they say “source?” smh

[mortal birch]

it would have to be after for her to be mad in the first place

[spare pendant]

That doesn't mean it's impossible. That means it's indefinite.

[twin dragon]

How did PK insert the radiance into the hollow knight?

[gentle aspen]

Thk used focus

[sinful nimbus]

Do you understand how the burden of proof works

[zinc pivot]

After the whole thk failed?

[twin dragon]

On what

[obsidian quail]

we definitely overthink it

[mortal birch]

he sucked it up

[twin dragon]

If it's not material

[gentle aspen]

It’s very implausible and there’s no proof that other entities did so

[spare pendant]

The burden of proof is on the person making an actual claim, which is you. I'm not making a claim.

[twin dragon]

Did bro get dream nail aswell?

[small gate]

they dont, but also the burden of proof is on you to assert that the pk has direct access to the dream realm

[obsidian quail]

u are making the claim

[spare pendant]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[mortal birch]

he made a castle in the dream world

[twin dragon]

We do see the knight getting trapped by the dreamers once

[spare pendant]

What claim?

[sinful nimbus]

I substantiated it. He's the only person who is known to have dream prowess indicated to have been involved with the Palace

[gentle aspen]

Literal boondocks moment

[spare pendant]

That's not proof.

[obsidian quail]

that someone put PK in there instead of PK

[small gate]

hes not shown to have dream powers

ever

[spare pendant]

It's literal basic logic.

[whole holly]

statistically it is more likely higher being(beings who usually has some connection to dreams) in dream realm can access it independently or transport between waking and dream realm(which even Dreamer's can do who are regular bugs) than rely on Moths who aren't present in White Palace

[sinful nimbus]

Please explain how he expanded the minds of the majority of Hallownest's citizens while not having any magical capability in that area

While you're at it explain how Kingsmoulds use essence commands if he was incapable of manipulating essence

[spare pendant]

"Statistically" based on what data?

[small gate]

to be fair dreamers were "put to sleep"

[gentle aspen]

You think seer would mention something like that too

[small gate]

they didnt access the dream realm by themselves

[sinful nimbus]

"nuh uh"

[twin dragon]

They can send others to the dream realm though

As they did to the knight

[whole holly]

this is bad argument considering Absence of proof is not Presence of proof either

[small gate]

youre still hung up on minds = dreams which is a circular argument

[twin dragon]

Can others learn dream magic?

[sinful nimbus]

How is that circular

[spare pendant]

Something being implied or more likely is literally not proof. Not to even mention your actual argument, which is basically "there's no proof he didn't do it"

[sinful nimbus]

No that's not

[small gate]

it has no start other than your own assumption that theyre one and the same

[spare pendant]

I never claimed it to be.

[sinful nimbus]

If you think that's my argument you can't read or are arguing in bad faith

[dark rune]

hornet calls pk a fool

[foggy fractal]

😔

pel kig,,,

[small gate]

he doesnt even show up in her dream

[twin dragon]

And the void caught up to him

[gentle aspen]

Why is that an assumption

[sinful nimbus]

If you would attempt to break her seal, you've first to discover the means to open a mind. Such tools may exist to perform the feat, though in my own travels I've not come across one.
I'd heard it told the Kingdom's moths did delve amongst dreams and the dead. Perhaps you'd seek them out?

[whole holly]

does that give them power over dream realm that Pale King doesn't have, they just reside in Dream Realm, just like Pale King, it isn't bold to assume pale king wasn't capable of at least same thing

[small gate]

shes like "my three beautiful mothers and i guess theres that bozo too"

[spare pendant]

It's not based in any concrete deduction

[sinful nimbus]

Entering the dreams of an individual is considered entering their mind

[gentle aspen]

White Lady?

[spare pendant]

What about her?

[gentle aspen]

Talks about the means to open a mind?

to access the seal

Of the dreamers???

[whole holly]

Proof of Absence is irrelevant when there is no presence of proof

[spare pendant]

You're just saying stuff

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension isn't concrete deduction apparently

[gentle aspen]

it is LITERALLY IN THE GAME

[spare pendant]

Again, I'm not making a definitive claim.

[small gate]

thats fine enough

[high marsh]

PALE KING RAISE YOUR CHILDREN

[twin dragon]

I assume PK was busy with THK at that point

[small gate]

that still doesnt prove the pk has direct access to the dream realm out of his own powers though

[high marsh]

YEAH DAD I MISS YOU

[zinc pivot]

I think its partially aiming at herself and the shamans
With her believing she caused this whole mess by believing in the shaman’s use of void

[obsidian quail]

seriously

[sinful nimbus]

This is the only logical assumption

[gentle aspen]

so you’re just being an opp atp

[twin dragon]

Anyone who tried, really

[small gate]

im being facetious but its still true

[sinful nimbus]

Unless you want to argue the snail shamans or moths did it

[obsidian quail]

u guys overthink it

[dark rune]

she didnt know void would be used

[gentle aspen]

can you stop

[small gate]

they could have, but thats irrelevant

[whole holly]

you are validating something that has absence of proof

[spare pendant]

They could have done it, which is enough to counter your assumption

[zinc pivot]

The shamans did say she could’ve had a hunch
And she knew they are shamans from beginning

[small gate]

well i guess its not irrelevant

[sinful nimbus]

No because its baseless

[small gate]

the moths did betray the radiance in favor of worshipping the pale king

[spare pendant]

How can a logical possibility be baseless

[gentle aspen]

it would’ve been mentioned in some capacity by anyone else

[foggy fractal]

oh btw did you get the lore tablet in verdania, is the conjurned heart your memento on that file ?

[spare pendant]

Not necessarily

[sinful nimbus]

They are not indicated to have been involved with the palace

[obsidian quail]

u think some regular moths or shamans could put PK and his whole palace in there

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King is

[ebon silo]

Maybe

[spare pendant]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[obsidian quail]

hell nah

[gentle aspen]

you gotta stop using this damn statement

[whole holly]

because it has no basis, fact that it is purely theoretically possible doesn't mean it has basis

[sinful nimbus]

Bro doesn't know how evidence works

[spare pendant]

I wouldn't have to keep saying it if others stopped using the argument.

[obsidian quail]

baseless means u have no proof beyond the idea

[sinful nimbus]

If you want to claim the shamans or moths did it you need evidence to substantiate your claim otherwise the default assumption is that PK did it

Because he's indicated to be involved

[spare pendant]

Logical possibilities are not tied to proof in any way

[small gate]

they did place the dreamers and created the seals

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a logical possibility

[whole holly]

Proof of Absence is irrelevant when there is no presence of proof

[small gate]

the moths are somewhat proefficient in the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

???

[spare pendant]

Explain how it is logically impossible for someone else to have moved the white palace

[gentle aspen]

This is never stated nor implied

[small gate]

wdym question marks

it is very heavily implied

[gentle aspen]

that the moths had anything to do with the dreamers

[small gate]

the dreamers arent dream proefficient bugs, theyre just bugs

[obsidian quail]

but u need logic which needs good reasoning which u don’t have besides the fact it could be possible but nothing supports it

[earnest sparrow]

wait a minute

[gentle aspen]

yeah but they’re not implied to have been done so by moths

moths are unrelated in this matter

[small gate]

the moths are literally the only people versed in dream diving and you need their tool to access the dreams

[gentle aspen]

we need it because we don’t naturally have that ability

[sinful nimbus]

Moving a large physical location to the dream realm and altering it on such a wide scale is unprecedented for non higher beings

[wintry flame]

yooooooo

[small gate]

but they do!

[sinful nimbus]

Moths and Snail Shamans also very well could've been mostly dead by that point

[obsidian quail]

yeah and TK was the chosen Dream nail guy and he wasn’t even close to the feats that PK showed

[whole holly]

unn can access dream realm too

[small gate]

the last moth guides us when we're trapped in the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

yeah because we were in her area

[spare pendant]

It's unpredecented in general

[small gate]

you think unn is more plausible to have sealed the dreamers than the moths?

[whole holly]

i never said that

[sinful nimbus]

Not for Higher Beings, no

Unn in particular did the inverse albeit on a larger scale

[small gate]

then what are you saying, what is that statement supposed to be

[obsidian quail]

only Higher Beings show that level of power

[small gate]

what if she... moved... yknow, close to the dreamers....

what then.........

[flint wadi]

in lost verdania or present time verdania
and yes conjurned heart is a memento on this save file

[ebon silo]

What a burning discussion for ss lore rn

[obsidian quail]

what

[spare pendant]

Snail shamans also did the inverse, the inverse is not relevant

[gentle aspen]

You get dream nail in resting grounds and you get trapped in the dream realm in resting grounds

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it is

[small gate]

i dont get what youre implying

[sinful nimbus]

Its the same mechanism

[foggy fractal]

in lost verdania
also theres a lore tablet in present verdania ?

[spare pendant]

You can kill somebody, but you can't bring someone back to life. The inverse of an action is not necessarily the same as the action itself.

[small gate]

is it that the resting grounds is a dream realm connection place

[flint wadi]

no thats why i was asking lol

[sinful nimbus]

This is more comparable to walking through a door though

[cedar dock]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-traumatisado-gif-6032284984473165967

[small gate]

because this is never implied in game other than its the sacred grounds of the moth tribe

[whole holly]

i am saying moths aren't only ones who could have done it, Pale king belongs to same higher being status as unn and radiance, he is bound to have to some extent of proficiency in dream realm

[foggy fractal]

right, so did you get the one in lost verdania

[spare pendant]

Conceptually, maybe. You're delving too deep into headcanons though.

[sinful nimbus]

What

[small gate]

he could have connections to the dream realm, yes

[flint wadi]

i cant remember honestly

[sinful nimbus]

Moving between the realms consists of splitting a veil between the two as Seer states

[small gate]

this is not the issue

[foggy fractal]

darn

[sinful nimbus]

I can carry a heavy lift to the outside through a door and I can carry a heavy lift to the inside through a door

[small gate]

the issue is the assumption that he most definitely can move and change and manipulate the dream realm to the same extent of beings like the radiance

[obsidian quail]

we know PK has power over minds, dream realm is part of the domain of minds, he has his own unique dream realm aesthetic, we don’t know any moths or shamans capable of that level of power, all HBs seem to have influence over the consciousness domain, 3 shamans died just helping hornet go through a 5 minute dream sequence

[sinful nimbus]

Its not necessarily to the same extent

But its certainly a power he possesses on a scale beyond normal bugs

[foggy fractal]

smoking on that Snail Shaman pack

[small gate]

if he did, hed probably be about as powerful as her

[sinful nimbus]

He is

[spare pendant]

This applies to cutting through the veil with dream nail, but how does this apply to dreamgate? How does this apply to moving a stationary building between realms?

[whole holly]

that is in no way equivalent to unn doing invese because unn demonstrates proficiency in dream realm itself

[small gate]

and a metaphysical combat of the radiance (through trapping the idea of her in a vessel) wouldnt be necessary when he could just

[spare pendant]

???

[small gate]

punt her from the dream realm

[sinful nimbus]

PK cut the veil and moved the building

[small gate]

which is the problem of the game

and also part of its theming

[spare pendant]

This is baseless

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[whole holly]

you used bad analogy to invalidate star's argument

[spare pendant]

I don't even get what you're trying to say here

[small gate]

the PK is the pragmatic "righteous" ruler-turned-god allegory when the radiance is the idea-god of hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

You can scroll up to see the proof or just google Kingsmoulds and the Pale King on the wiki because I don't feel like explaining again

[small gate]

these dont mix

[spare pendant]

I've already debunked it as proof

[small gate]

thematically i mean

[sinful nimbus]

No you haven't

[small gate]

the fact that they dont is what spurns conflict

[spare pendant]

Either defend your argument or concede, this is incredibly disingenuous.

[small gate]

why are you sphynxing this

[sinful nimbus]

Your "debunks" consist of making unnecessary assumptions to justify a conclusion you already have

"Maybe there was a moth in the white palace that made Path of Pain" yeah nice one

[spare pendant]

Not assumptions, counterproposals

[sinful nimbus]

Baseless ones

[spare pendant]

You don't need a base for a counterproposal

[sinful nimbus]

Yes you do

[spare pendant]

That makes no sense

[gentle aspen]

you definitely do

[sinful nimbus]

If there's no evidence I don't really have a reason to consider it

[small gate]

please consult the graph

[gentle aspen]

you can’t just assert something without any evidence and say that is a debunk

[gentle aspen]

No, I don’t think I will.

[spare pendant]

I don't know how else to say that this is basic logic. Any logician, philosopher, or even skilled debater would agree with me. Counterproposals are a kind of argument where you propose alternatives to an assumption in order to justify that it's not the only reasonable conclusion to make from the evidence, and thus not proper deduction.

[whole holly]

especially when debunk is counterevidence

[gentle aspen]

Your counterproposal isn’t a reasonable conclusion to make

[sinful nimbus]

Surely this is a philosophical debate

[spare pendant]

It is reasonable; it's logically consistent and explains the premises.

[gentle aspen]

It requires more assumptions and leaps than the thing you’re attempting to debunk

[spare pendant]

Occam's razor is not a method of finding proof lol

[gentle aspen]

a moth snapping the palace away and somehow making path of pain, something no one else was ever meant to see is not a reasonable counter proposal

[sinful nimbus]

This is like saying maybe Radiance got external help to make the moths

[spare pendant]

It's logically consistent and explains the premises, the only two legitimate criteria here

[small gate]

yknow what

i completely forgot what the implication of the path of pain was

[whole holly]

your counterproposal are invalid than claims you are arguing against, how is debater supposed to concede and consider it?

[sinful nimbus]

Sure if you ignore evidence your point is valid you win

[gentle aspen]

Those aren’t the only two legitimate criteria you can’t just insert philosophical rhetoric here

you need evidence here and you have none

[small gate]

yeah it doesnt make sense someone else made the white palace

[gentle aspen]

either get proper evidence, properly address the goddamn evidence given, or concede

[sinful nimbus]

As soon as you decide to throw evidence out the window you kinda lose everyone

[spare pendant]

You can't just say "nuh uh" whenever I try to explain basic logic.

[small gate]

what basic logic

[gentle aspen]

that’s literally what you’ve been doing to all the evidence given

[spare pendant]

That counterproposals aren't claims, but rather alternate possibilities, and are thus not subject to the burden of proof.

[obsidian quail]

u need a foundation for a counterpoint but u don’t beyond saying the counterpoint itself

[sinful nimbus]

They are alternate possibilities yes but without proof there's no reason to take them seriously

[small gate]

aye

[spare pendant]

My counter_point_ is that there are alternate possibilities beyond the assumed conclusion here.

[small gate]

ok

[sinful nimbus]

Not ones worth considering

[spare pendant]

That's literally not how that works, or logically can work

[whole holly]

it is plausible that Higher Being has access to dream realm when Dreamers have demonstrated capabilities and every Higher Being has some extent of having access to dream realm, it requires more leap in logic to say pale king is incapable of accesing realm he resides in

[small gate]

if my grandma had wheels shed be a bike

[spare pendant]

Counterproposals are how you determine proof lol

[sinful nimbus]

What are you waffling about bro

[obsidian quail]

what

[spare pendant]

You cannot prove something without making sure there are NO OTHER alternatives for that thing

[obsidian quail]

how are u supposed to take a claim serious without anything backing it up

[fallen berry]

What is this purpose of the exhaust organ and why did GMS consider its protection so instrumental?

[spare pendant]

It's not a claim

[sinful nimbus]

It gets rid of citadel fumes

[twin dragon]

It was built along the citadel and gms had no part in it

[small gate]

thats not what falseability is based on

[sinful nimbus]

Oh so you're arguing nothing got it

Counterpropose deez nuts

[fallen berry]

GMS assigned phantom as its protector

[twin dragon]

No? it was the citadel, and not protector, but a worker

[whole holly]

it is plausible that Higher Being has access to dream realm when Dreamers have demonstrated capabilities and every Higher Being has some extent of having access to dream realm, it requires more leap in logic to say pale king is incapable of accessing realm he resides in

[spare pendant]

You mean falsifiability? Because that's not relevant to proof

[small gate]

falseability isnt counterproposals, its the quality assurance of proof

[twin dragon]

Because phantom is basically an outcast

[small gate]

it quite literally is the modern understanding of porf

[spare pendant]

Proof cannot be falsified, it's logically assured

[twin dragon]

btw do y'all think that some pilgrims did enter through sinner's road

And phantom just let them pass

[small gate]

are you daft, thats not what falsifiablity is

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think so

[teal drift]

Im not sure that back in the Citadel's heyday Phantom was even around.

[small gate]

falsifiability is the assurance that the proof is able to be safely extrapolated from because it assumes counterevidence to it is valid

[fallen berry]

I was making a claim about her investment in its protection, and not her role in its construction. It is also clear that she is not a mere worker. All special competencies she demonstrates are combative.

[spare pendant]

Falsifiability is used to validate hypotheses and theories. That's why mathematics isn't a science, it's purely logical rather than being falsifiable.

[twin dragon]

If silkborns were created when she was awake she def was

[teal drift]

I imagine there were a lot of off screen smuggling routes where you snuck people in through shipments of meat and whatnot.

[sinful nimbus]

This is a story

[small gate]

you were putnamming about logic a minute ago ma'am

[teal drift]

We don't know when Phantom or Lace were really created, other than them being after the Weavers. She doesn't particularly have to be awake to have created them—they could be constructs dreamed into existence.

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of discussing the story in this channel things need proof to be taken seriously

[twin dragon]

Both silkborns have good combative abilities seemingly without any kind of training

[obsidian quail]

should i get the King’s brand tattoo or the void idol

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ peak infiltration subplot

[spare pendant]

And I am contesting your proof as being insufficient due to it pointing to several possible conclusions

[gentle aspen]

Former

[sinful nimbus]

King's Brand

[silk dirge]

VERDANIA DLC BAIT IS REAL
https://x.com/anotherjooby/status/1974451149479805419?s=46

Groal the Great (@AnotherJooby)

I came back to kill some pharlids and Verdania is regrowing : )

X · Oct 4, 2025, 12:26 PM

[small gate]

you are flip flopping between assuming logic and literal readings are correlated

[twin dragon]

And again, she did NOT assign phantom to work there

[sinful nimbus]

Well void idol would be more unique

[obsidian quail]

everyone has the king’s brand but i like how PK is a dune reference

[spare pendant]

What?

[teal drift]

Me sneaking through Sinner's road only to get stuck in the underworks.

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-whtie-and-black-cry-praying-looking-up-gif-553441503240360994

[small gate]

insufficient to what

[gentle aspen]

Void idol looks dumb

[teal drift]

We know very little about Phantom besides being Lace's sibling. The timeline on those 2 is a bit strange. As far as I can tell Phantom's primary motivation in the organ is to Aura Farm.

[silk dirge]

this could also mean when we kill khann we might be able to restore coral gorge

🙏

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

[spare pendant]

I just said it's insufficient for their claim because it can support multiple possibilities. I don't even understand what your point is, anymore.

[twin dragon]

Real

[foggy fractal]

it seems like as usual people are having a difficult time to get it to trigger (I don't have it either)
we'll probably get to know soon though, dataminers do your thing ragh

[twin dragon]

(he's already dead)

[small gate]

neither do i yours

[sinful nimbus]

Restoring all of these lost regions would be thematically wonky

[teal drift]

I remember seeing a streamer fully buy in to the crack theory that you could flood Sands of Karak to create the Coral area.

[abstract rivet]

Is it js me or i just think Underworks is the deepnest of the game, when bilewater definetly should be the deepnest but isnt as creepy as underworks

[gentle aspen]

the possibility you posited doesn’t have merit

[small gate]

good fun was had by all, im pooped

[spare pendant]

???

[foggy fractal]

just give us the City of Steel DLC trust

[gentle aspen]

Underworks isn’t creepy

[sinful nimbus]

You get it

[silk dirge]

i hope its not a silkpost it looks way too real to be tho

[abstract rivet]

thats lowk subjective I found it creepy 💔

[teal drift]

I honestly think wormways is the closest to deepnest, but it's pointless seeking 1:1.

[silk dirge]

true

[twin ocean]

who is this man and what connection do weavers have with needolin

[twin dragon]

All these workers stuck in it for eternity with a false promise of getting to heaven is a bit scary

[foggy fractal]

nah someone posted it here even earlier

[sinful nimbus]

Underworks is pretty disturbing

[gentle aspen]

It’s not scary its depressing

[spare pendant]

It precludes your argument as being deductive reasoning. It's abduction, and frankly, I don't think that matters in this discussion.

[gentle aspen]

Whiteward is scary

[silk dirge]

wisp thicket:

[sinful nimbus]

Word salad 😭

[abstract rivet]

depressingly scary

[twin dragon]

Keep in mind that it could've been you

[teal drift]

I wish Whiteward had more to it

[gentle aspen]

I’m built different

[teal drift]

I would simply get judged as pure

[twin dragon]

Good, could get more work done for the cit

[dapper willow]

underwork has a lot of dark areas with a lot of spikes/hazards
Thast scary enough

[silk dirge]

honestly i think team cherry purposely made whiteward short since it mightve been too much for some people to handle

[twin dragon]

YOUR ASS is NOT getting past worms in bsteps

[spare pendant]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/deduction-vs-induction-vs-abduction

[gentle aspen]

what does this even mean

[abstract rivet]

Is the fucking grand gate elevator meant to go to the citadel or are all pilgrims just destined to be a slave as an underworks employee

[silk dirge]

ive heard a lot of people say creepy hospital levels make them freak out like crazy

[twin dragon]

Both cit and underworks

[foggy fractal]

#sk-lore message @silk dirge here

[twin dragon]

sherma wasn't in the underworks afaik

[silk dirge]

and even tho thats the point i can imagine it can lead to unhealthy heart rates

[gentle aspen]

like your other option was a moth doing it which doesn’t make sense because path of pain exists

[dapper willow]

I think it could be a little bigger but its also has a pretty good size for its purpose

[left dune]

pov: you try to sound smart just to sound smart

[sinful nimbus]

Thanks but that doesn't exactly apply to media literacy

[spare pendant]

Deduction is finding a set of premises and coming to the one possible conclusion from them. Abduction is determining the most likely conclusion from a set of premises.

[silk dirge]

yeah

[twin dragon]

we get enough lore and atrocities

[silk dirge]

i just think team cherry realized that a creepy hospital level in a not horror game might be a problem for quite a few people

[gentle aspen]

I know what deduction is mate

[abstract rivet]

whats in the public betas that are different

[spare pendant]

Then what is confusing you about my statement

[twin dragon]

found verdania

[silk dirge]

might be same thing with wisp thicket

[dapper willow]

ducts could use more sauce though
Same with hunter's march and wormways

[left dune]

Nah abduction is like kidnapping

[foggy fractal]

wouldn't be the first time they did something thematically wonky with this game !!!

[sinful nimbus]

I think there should be a lore tablet in Whiteward talking about how abortion is awful to really hammer home the horror

[abstract rivet]

I wonder what mod will be the pale court of silksong (high quality mod thats not quality of life tweak mod and just an actual expansion)

[silk dirge]

yeah i dont like ducts

ducts is bilewater without any of the stuff that makes bilewater "perfectly bad"

[spare pendant]

Abyss expansion

[abstract rivet]

i love bilewater

[twin dragon]

Bilewater is so bad it's good

[gentle aspen]

Act 3 is the abyss expansion

[sinful nimbus]

Infirmity. Sickness. Abortion. Death. All are banished from our Citadel 🗣️

[gentle aspen]

If it was bad

[twin dragon]

It's bad on purpose

[abstract rivet]

It puts out its purpose perfectly so its good

[twin dragon]

that never existed in the first place guh

what is this act 3 hate

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3 confirms my hypothesis that an abyss expansion would be awful

[silk dirge]

a big problem for ducts is it doesnt have good music

[foggy fractal]

what if instead of the abyss expansion, we got the pale expansion, instead of everything turning to void, everything turns white

[twin dragon]

aggressive white liquid...

[silk dirge]

what did andy mean by this

[abstract rivet]

lmao

[gentle aspen]

I believe its fairly incongruous with the rest of the story and doesn’t add anything too worthwhile that is actually tied to void

[spare pendant]

I think my disconnect with this channel is that some people are just really opposed to the position that hollow knight is internally consistent.

[dapper willow]

I think it might get a bit of an expansion in the bay dlc
there is like a huge empty space in here that could have connecting rooms to the bay area

[brisk finch]

Bilewater is oppressive, I wouldn't call it bad
It perfectly shows the consequences of the Citadel's actions and the lake shows just enough of what it used to be that Groal is very sympathetic

[teal drift]

there was already enough pale expansion when silksong was announced

[left dune]

why are some people so convinced that the dlc will be barnacle bay

[abstract rivet]

the lake is how Bilewater would look similiar to??

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone starts drinking Pale Oil (Mooooooooootagh Spiiiiiiiiirit) but oh no! it actually causes another infection

[spare pendant]

Every other "cut" area made an appearance in act 3

[twin dragon]

It did catch me by surprise but regret is one hell of a theme in this game so i liked it

[teal drift]

I think most here believe HK is internally consistent, but also is delivered by unreliable narrators and a few things are retconned for Skong

[dapper willow]

mostly because its in the map files and also because of the text updates in the patches

[twin dragon]

Though i do agree it seems like they forgot to add in sequel elements into the rest of the game and crammed allat into act 3

[left dune]

text updates? tell me more pls

[gentle aspen]

regret is not as much of a theme as it is in the first game

and i regret its inclusion

[dapper willow]

I heard some people mention it
idk

[gentle aspen]

So yeah nvm its a theme

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3 reeks of rewrite

Verdania and the Coral Tower especially

[left dune]

Not really but yes really yknow

[sinful nimbus]

All of it feels very shoehorned in

[silk dirge]

anyways what do we think the purpose of putrified ducts is

[teal drift]

I like act 3 because void has always been a way of breaking free of god that also comes with extreme consequences and dangers. Act 3 doubles down on that.

[twin dragon]

Act 3's more about GMS and the consequences of feeding her to the fucking void

[teal drift]

it was ducts to carry water to and from citadel, it became putrified

[gentle aspen]

Airways for the citadel

got nasty

[silk dirge]

bc i always thought putrified ducts was like the sewer system

[gentle aspen]

someone didn’t change out the filters

[foggy fractal]

oh hey jojoker since you're here what do you think of the cut organ sleepers #sk-lore message
yes I will keep pushing this this is like my third post

[twin dragon]

They kinda need an expansion yeah

But we do see and know enough within sands of karak

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3's shift towards learning about the previous rulers of Pharloom and saving Lace is also really jarring

[dapper willow]

I mean an act3 update or dlc could make it feel more organic if team cherry feels like its a problem

[abstract rivet]

Bilewater lore is just woke propaganda to show how treating our enviroment badly will do harm. And this ultimately makes it green propaganda. We must boycott Silksong for this!

[twin dragon]

Not rlly about saving lace only, but pharloom and it's future

[sinful nimbus]

It all feels like bad fanfiction (Cough cough Lost Garmond)

[foggy fractal]

lost Andy 😨

[gentle aspen]

honestly gms should’ve been act 3 only

[twin dragon]

why did they even kill off garmond

[abstract rivet]

bro HATES act 3

[brisk finch]

To me, Act 3 shows well how an area can "change hands" when gods are involved so to speak, but it also shows someone related to the Higher Beings actually taking accountability and fixing a situation

[gentle aspen]

It would’ve been more internally consistent that way

[dapper willow]

But yeah
the first two acts feel more put togethere than the third
TC could have left it in the oven a little longer

[sinful nimbus]

Hate doesn't even begin to describe my relationship with Act 3

[twin dragon]

I mean ig it works since garmond fucking blitzes into hordes of haunted enemies

[sinful nimbus]

Ts is why I was saying the game should've had 5 more years in the oven before it released

Everyone called me crazy

[abstract rivet]

I think a super higher being that we might kill to save lace might been a better choice as act 3 final boss but im grateful with a 3rd lace

[gentle aspen]

“We could’ve added more” PLEASE

[twin dragon]

What would a super higher being be

[gentle aspen]

WHY DID THEY release ot

[twin dragon]

To end cohesively

[teal drift]

I think they shoulda made lace a shade lord smh

[dapper willow]

Its not like I hate act 3
There were a lot of moments in it that I liked

[abstract rivet]

some void creature that the knight kills in the ending or void GMS maybe

[silk dirge]

you have godly patience lmao

[sinful nimbus]

"We could've added more" they say knowing full well that they just axed Coral Forest and Verdania

[foggy fractal]

nah the game is fine content wise its just the direction trust

[twin dragon]

Void is in it's primal state so doubt

Void gms is just dumb fanfic

[brisk finch]

I like how we see the concept of a Lace Fight evolve as the game progresses, but I simultaneously hope for bombastic cool new stuff in the Godhome variant

[abstract rivet]

Im all for ideas smh and im grateful with a 3rd lace

[twin dragon]

Atp lets get void radiance

Or void unn, how about void unn

[foggy fractal]

void void

[dapper willow]

I think its fine that they cut some of the areas
Like we end up seeing verdania anyway, so its only the coral tower really thats lacking the most

[brisk finch]

Void Shade Lord

[twin dragon]

shade lord shade lord

[abstract rivet]

I think Mister Mushroom should pop up as the final boss

[twin dragon]

VOID MR MUSH

[sinful nimbus]

Cutting areas is fine it just hurts that all the areas cut were the most interesting and awesome

[abstract rivet]

then just decides to bring the entire fungal wastes to pharloom with bro

[brisk finch]

I'm actually satisfied with Verdania, especially with the beta patch growth.

[silk dirge]

i feel like team cherry has a lot of shit they want to add to dlc and they just released the game bc they felt 7 years was too crazy

[twin dragon]

Honestly yeah this might be it

[spare pendant]

They literally explicitly stated that

[abstract rivet]

I think Coral Area got too big of an idea and will make out to be an entire dlc

[flint wadi]

call me evil but now i just wish karak was bigger

[twin dragon]

Tbf silksong could've been a spinoff and it would've been perfectly fine

[dapper willow]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Coral DLC ain't happening and if it did it would be bad

[abstract rivet]

It prob will be broski you must trust tc

[teal drift]

Lost Pondcatcher Reed

[silk dirge]

bc yeah i think team cherry kinda messed up revealing so much so early

[brisk finch]

Reminder

[silk dirge]

what if its a major content update instead of a dlc

[teal drift]

I wish Karak was bigger too, the platforming there was so fun

[abstract rivet]

There was a whole ass cut area what makes you think it cant happen also BRO hates anything

[graceful grail]

Yeah, they shouldn’t have kept us so updated

[twin dragon]

you can't do much with a memory

[dapper willow]

maybe you are thinking too negatively about all this...

[twin dragon]

BUT you can do more than a few gauntlets

[abstract rivet]

How it would be bad like damn bro u dont even know the whole hypothetical progress of the area

[flint wadi]

i hate fun moment?

[abstract rivet]

yeah it feels like ragebait

[twin dragon]

I liked act 3.

[flint wadi]

like its actually as hypothetical as it gets

[silk dirge]

i feel like team cherry tho was probably stuck in a bad spot bc they had to reveal silksong or otherwise people would be thinking hornet dlc still exists

[abstract rivet]

act 3 gameplay wise is worse but has better bosses but I like the ending

[brisk finch]

I don't think it needs more. It's a tightly contained story with a beginning, tragic middle and end, with different areas and enemy types organically placed and 2 bossfights

[sinful nimbus]

Thematically it would be jarring for all the lost areas to come back good as new, gameplay wise expansions aren't that great because you can't significantly alter the base game (Grimm Troupe and Godhome are great examples of this)

[graceful grail]

Yeah, i wish we had an act 4 so everyone isnt so depressed though

[heavy gyro]

Act 3 bosses are mid except karmelita

[opal beacon]

Just look at this area

[brisk finch]

This. They had a responsibility towards their backers

[twin dragon]

Void enemies are fun tbf

[teal drift]

I think people got way too attached to the coral gorge area in the ad, i dont really miss it at all.

[silk dirge]

wild take

[abstract rivet]

khan, clover dancers, L. Lace:

[sinful nimbus]

Never forget 💔

[dapper willow]

its a bit of a mixed bag compared to the other acts but overall its pretty all right

[abstract rivet]

its just more bullet hell and more hp

[gentle aspen]

they’re tougher except you can hit them less

Not really fun

[brisk finch]

It's very much that it was the most striking announcement trailer visual

[abstract rivet]

I wouldnt call it fun

[gentle aspen]

Clover dancers is just worse cogwork dancers honestly

[teal drift]

Act 3 has the best boss: Gurr the Outcast.

[abstract rivet]

i like it more than cogwork to be honest

[twin dragon]

They've adapted enemies that die in 2 hits to their late game variants that are actually a threat now

[teal drift]

I agree that only Karmelita and Lace have the sauce in act 3.

[silk dirge]

can we talk about how they outcast their literal best hunter

[teal drift]

Gurr the Outcast should have been fought in act 2 lmfao.

[twin dragon]

Khann is a good boss

[terse warren]

Bro where's your hopecore

[silk dirge]

gurr is fucking cracked

[flint wadi]

fuck didnt mean to reply

[brisk finch]

I really like the tower, and it's likely it would've existed anyway (they mention a Warlord's Tower in one of their original blog posts)

Even if the king is relatively easy to compensate

[silk dirge]

thats a big oversimplication of ll a lot of her void attacks are unique

[brisk finch]

I also think Nyleth is a fun pogo fight and Seth is peak

[sinful nimbus]

Coral Gorge represented something special 😔
A lively kingdom 🥺
A vibrant one 🥹
A kingdom worth saving 😭

[teal drift]

I think they should have full sent Khann and gotten rid of the shortcut that skips the previous arenas.

[abstract rivet]

We shouldve had Void Groal The Great but no bench or no bilewater bellway so you had to walk biomes to get a attempt on the boss one time

[silk dirge]

fuck nah

[twin dragon]

Act 3 on average has the best bosses actually

[gentle aspen]

With their current take on the story this would’ve been incongruent

Which I dislike

[teal drift]

Imo Khann clearly seems designed as if you didn't skip the arenas. He's a colo boss, not a boss that stands on his own. Adding the shortcut was cowardly.

[sinful nimbus]

Their current take on the story sucks is the thing

[dapper willow]

Act 3 has some of the best and words bosses in the game
Which is why I'm hoping tc updates them, patches them up a little bit

[abstract rivet]

holy hater

[twin dragon]

isn't act 3 all about gloom and doom and consequences catching up

[sinful nimbus]

Ruinedkingdomslop and depressingatmosphereslop

[gentle aspen]

Like the kingdom’s not even dying it’s just basically dead

[sinful nimbus]

Its described as a corpse yes

[twin dragon]

Pharloom WAS dead when we enter it, we're tryna revive it

[terse warren]

What am I supposed to restore hope to? The corpses of my friends?

[brisk finch]

Every settlement survives in some way, even Bonebottom

[gentle aspen]

And the haunting is just the infection again

[silk dirge]

i mean pharloom is in a better state than hallownest for sure

[brisk finch]

Flick the Fixer?

[terse warren]

Pilgrim's Rest

[twin dragon]

Bit different since it doesn't bloat everything arbitrarily and bugs seem to keep their minds

[flint wadi]

citadel and conductors shouldve been the real antagonists
pharloom would be better off as a live kingdom but droning on what-ifs when its done and sealed is just runining my perception of the game as it is now

[terse warren]

What about Garmond uh

[teal drift]

Mort had it coming

[brisk finch]

There's so many survivors waiting for you to fix the issue, who are fighting to go on but need your help

[abstract rivet]

offtopic but do yall got like a silksong 100% checklist and a specific one

[gentle aspen]

I have a map

[teal drift]

Imo having more common bug antagonists would've been lit.

[abstract rivet]

works

[brisk finch]

What about Zaza

[twin dragon]

Actually pharloom's half alive

[abstract rivet]

I gotta see all the tool names im missing

[gentle aspen]

You have farsight already?

[twin dragon]

It's just that most of the society is centered around a dead religious cult

[teal drift]

Honestly I think TC wanted Pharloom to be more alive than it was, but you need a plot device to justify everything attacking you.

[terse warren]

I don't think there's much we can do to help the guy whose best friend is very much dead

[silk dirge]

yeah

[gentle aspen]

honestly just make them religious zealots or animals attacking you

[charred nimbus]

We could've adopted it

[gentle aspen]

They already had a majority of the enemies not drop fucking money now

[abstract rivet]

i do i just need the names

[gentle aspen]

what slots are you missing toolwise

[sinful nimbus]

Imagine if there was a game about taking on adventurous quests to restore hope to the world, save it from great calamities, and build to a better future

Maybe it would have actually good bosses
Maybe we could even have vibrant and lively areas
Maybe it even had an aquatic themed coral area that took place on land

Oh, that's just Monster Hunter World

[teal drift]

I think it should've been under the control of common bugs without the haunting. Hornet is a fugitive but the pilgrims don't really care.

[brisk finch]

We can't in game, but Zaza still lives. The survivor's camp still lives, the songclave still lives, bellhart lives, even the fleas live
As long as they live and breathe, it's a kingdom with those worth saving

[flint wadi]

haunting can still exist even in live pharloom

and even better, you dont even need it to justify territorial creatures to attack an intruder!

[brisk finch]

Hallownest had Elder Bug

[abstract rivet]

i’ll give you a screenshot let me get on my pc rq

[twin dragon]

Half of the enemies are wild animals, territorial wild animals, territorial kingdoms

[silk dirge]

so many people are going to take the bait even tho i know this is like half truth half bait

[twin dragon]

So you're here to hate on silksong and say how you don't like it and glaze MH world

[terse warren]

I can't believe TC really just made Moss Grotto a Top 5 area 🥀 (aesthetic-wise)

[sinful nimbus]

The actually good bosses part is bait

[brisk finch]

How's the xiv crossover fairing...

[silk dirge]

yeah i guessed

[sinful nimbus]

Rise is better but that doesn't have a coral area

So I had to go with W*rld 😔

[gentle aspen]

I can’t believe they had three maggot juice areas

[twin dragon]

Mh: I require a 5000$ pc to run it

[abstract rivet]

Mos Grotto is peaceful then the next areas enter ultimately is depression

[silk dirge]

ive never played mh and i dont intend to idk it doesnt seem that appealing to me

[brisk finch]

In HK it would've been one area with different subsections, it's not that wild

[sinful nimbus]

I haven't even tried that tbh

[charred nimbus]

Ofc they needed to have three areas with the best mechanic in the game

[silk dirge]

yeah this is a big issue

i also just generally dont ever feel like playing AAA games

[sinful nimbus]

That's only for Wilds

[brisk finch]

I was mildly mocking you because I've heard it's bad. I'm waiting for the xiv side to launch XD

[abstract rivet]

@gentle aspen (sorry for ping) here's all the tools im missing

[sinful nimbus]

World and Rise run fine for me

[small gate]

what could be the justification for lace to free hornet at the start of the game

[terse warren]

HK would've never had such slop as Putrified Ducts

[teal drift]

tbh putrified ducts shouldve been left on the cutting room floor

[gentle aspen]

Jeez louise

[sinful nimbus]

She's rebellious and hates her mom, basically

[teal drift]

if TC were brave the ducts would be "Bilewater 2"

[flint wadi]

absolutely

[brisk finch]

As an arachnophobe: deepnest is actual hell

[charred nimbus]

She hates her mom

[silk dirge]

the rebellious child no way passover reference

[small gate]

increíble

[flint wadi]

ducts is bilewater 2 electric boogaloo on the dvd