sk-lore

[lime nova]

By the way, are the memory fights actual time travel?

[hazy meadow]

i think the memory fights are akin to dream realms

[lime nova]

Yeah?

[hazy meadow]

tapping into the songs of old, faded memories

[lethal burrow]

no because if you killed karmelita, she wouldn't be alive in the present

[lime nova]

Is she? When you get back I mean

[native cedar]

I just realized
Higher beings are just beings that doesn't do contact damage
Like radiance and silk

[lethal burrow]

well she dies afterwards, but if you were to have killed her in the past, she wouldn't have been there in the first place

[lime nova]

NKG

[hazy meadow]

you kill the memory of her, she is already weak, you fought what was left of her spirit in a way

[lime nova]

Though I guess the heart itself doesn't do contact damage

[native cedar]

Was just gonna say that the actual higher being is the heart

[lime nova]

Wait do all gods of Hallownest exist in the dream realm?

[hazy meadow]

their purest forms

[lethal burrow]

counterpoint: half the dream warriors

[hazy meadow]

their essence, strength, etc

[lime nova]

Like... all gods primarily exist as dream, but have an element of themselves in reality

[hazy meadow]

gorb......

[lime nova]

WAIT. QUEENS GARDENS IS THE PHYSICAL BODY OF THE WHITE LADY

[rose forge]

why do the coral warriors just "crust up" their bodies? are they just being petty so other warriors cant use their bones as trophies?

[hazy meadow]

pale king, nkg, radience

gods have a physical form in the world to some extent

[lethal burrow]

all known higher beings
unn,
white lady,
nightmare heart
radiance
pale king
grandmother silk
shade lord
gods of thunder and rain (?)
Lifeblood entity (?)

[hazy meadow]

hey its not granny silk its grand mother silk

[lethal burrow]

why isn't it glowing white

[hazy meadow]

she is grand and she is a mother, but shes not a grandma

[rose forge]

the reason they dont do contact damage is because they are in the background basically

[lime nova]

Why isn't Hornet?

[hazy meadow]

also: eva?????????

[lime nova]

Or The Knight

[hazy meadow]

what are you girl.

[lethal burrow]

she's not a successful higher being only an attempt

[lime nova]

Eva is an attempt to create a deity of pure silk, much like what Silk herself is

[hazy meadow]

i snee

[lethal burrow]

Basically, the Weaver's tried to make a divine child, but they did not succeed

[hazy meadow]

also hear me out

if the radience n stuff are higher beings

[lime nova]

The weavers tried to make their own Lace. It didn't work

[lethal burrow]

The way I see eva is the weavers trying to prove they were better than grandmother silk.

"you couldn't give birth to real gods, you made us! So we're going to prove that we're better than you by actually making a real god child!"

And then they proceeded to also fail

[dry bridge]

Failed attempt at the weavers making offspring and/or a higher being iirc, stuck in an iron shell so that she didn't unravel

[hazy meadow]

then by logic does that make the void a lower being (ba dum tss)

[lethal burrow]

although it seems like lace was later?

[lime nova]

When you talk to the White Lady in Hornet's memory you're talking to the real white lady who actually conjures a real everbloom as a divine blessing

[native cedar]

So silk is inspired by eva to make lace?

[lime nova]

Possibly, yes

[lethal burrow]

no silk just wanted a child and her first attempts fucked her over really hard so next time she spun a child pure

I don't think silk even knows about eva

[lime nova]

WAIT! All spiders are automatically blessed by Silk. All spiders are Silk's creation. Weavers were simply regular, Silkborn spiders that she elevated to a higher, sentient level

[lethal burrow]

kind of sort of not quite.

We don't know about other spiders and what's going on with them, but yes, Weavers were ascended, they were ascended pharlids to be precise

[native cedar]

So I guess she IS the grandmother of hornet then

that makes lace hornet's aunt

[lethal burrow]

it depends if you count the Weavers as true children or not

[lime nova]

No. All Silk comes from Silk. Spiders make silk. All Silk comes from Silk. She is the "primordial origin of Silk"

[rose forge]

gms basically adopted the weavers

[lime nova]

When the Weavers left for Hallownest, they brought actual spiders (Silk's creation) with them. Little Weavers aren't even Weavers, they're just spiders with Weaver masks

Not Weaver children

[dry bridge]

Unlikely. Weavenests are quite hidden and require the needolin to access. Atla in particular is especially deeply hidden & gms probably never knew eva existed

[lime nova]

Deepnest had no spiders before the weavers appeared

They are a pilgrimage from Pharloom

[woven tendon]

So what is silk, is it like life

[lime nova]

Silk is a transformation of Soul into thread

[dry bridge]

Silk is a specific manifestation/channeling of soul in thread form

[woven tendon]

I see thanks

[lime nova]

Grandmother Silk, a Soul being, which is what I believe a Pale Being actually is, a being made of Soul, turns her Soul into silk, and all her creations tap into her production to make silk

Spiders in this world are beings blessed with the ability to tap into Silk's godlike body to spin their own silk

[dry bridge]

This is specifically mentioned in like, one bit of dialogue from seamstress

[cloud mesa]

does that refer to all silk or js what hornet does

[lime nova]

All

There is no such thing as non magical spider silk in the world of hollow knight

[rose forge]

so gms is basically every where?

[lime nova]

All higher beings are

They exist in the dream realm

[lethal burrow]

what about this guy

[dry bridge]

I think this is specifically ellie's theorycrafting stuff and not necessarily hard game lore

[lime nova]

That's a backer designed character, he may also be a crab

[dry bridge]

In pharloom at least, the only silk we really see is the magical soul kind

[muted lantern]

hey so just making sure, hornet never actually seems to learn laces name right?

[lethal burrow]

khann and karmelita are also backer designed

[lime nova]

And in Hallownest

[lime nova]

But unlike him, they are not crabs

[deft walrus]

Just realized
With Needolin, Hornet can play the White Lady's theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y7JziBUOMA

[dry bridge]

Hard to say about hallownest, it's possible that normal non-weaver webbing is a thing, or later generation weavers have a weaker connection to the stuff so there's just less soul in the webbing the later gen a weaver that makes it is

[rose forge]

how are silk flies able to cancel out binding spells?

[native cedar]

Those are lumaflies? As in lumafly lantern?

And they power the automatons too

[rose forge]

the lumaflys are the one in hallownest while the silkflys are dead bugs in pharloom

[mortal birch]

was there a "silksong" kickstarter? or was it backers from the hollow knight campaign?

i've always wondered this and how much people paid for bosses like kahn nor karmelita it has to be more than they did for HK right?

just beacuse it's a sequal so it has a bigger audience

[rose forge]

to make it more clear, lumaflies are just regular fireflies of hallownest while silkflies were once normal bugs who volunteered to go on a "silk siphon" which extracted their silk/life force to turn them into silkflies

[scenic stirrup]

Hello chatters

Lets start discourse ✍️🔥 i think all the hk grubs should perish

[stuck berry]

that

is not a lumafly

[native cedar]

right... I have thought that they were the same lumaflies we saw in HK all along
Learned something new

[stuck berry]

i'm fairly certain, i know silkflies have more wings and a tail but i really doubt such a common bug in hallownest could break magical barriers like that

[scenic stirrup]

Were those still sentient ppl in hallownest just dont sleep so they didnt get infected 💀

I mean thats what zote did right

[rose forge]

no wonder why he looks sleep deprived

[stuck berry]

maybe they did sleep without dreaming

[heavy gyro]

Nosk?

[rose forge]

nosk is kinda like thk where he has the abilty to use soul but he cant cause of the radiance

[graceful grail]

Is Lace hornets Aunt??

[craggy smelt]

yes

[graceful grail]

And she called her child 😏

[craggy smelt]

everyone is somebody's child

[graceful grail]

But Green Prince is probably rly old though right??

[craggy smelt]

probably

[graceful grail]

His entire Kingdom is like, gone

[rose forge]

yea he existed before gms arrived at pharloom

[graceful grail]

She has years but not age

[graceful grail]

Where does it say that she “Arrived”

[rose forge]

idk i got that from a lore video

[graceful grail]

The Citidel has her Silk Ball logo everywhere

So citidel is post GMS

[rose forge]

yea

bilewater used to be like the pale lake

then citadel ruined it

[graceful grail]

Unless GMS was cool for a while till she got all controlly

[rose forge]

pale beings are drawn to control

[graceful grail]

So Green Prince is before the entirety of the citedel would need built

[rose forge]

yea

[stuck berry]

mossbag save us

[graceful grail]

He Old

[rose forge]

exactly

[graceful grail]

Now, Zote.

Was he always crazy, or was he actuall warrior material at some point??

[rose forge]

he is warrior material

he was the prince of verdania

and another prince

[lime nova]

So Wyrms are seemingly the kings of gods. Is this fair? "Higher Beings, these words are for you alone, do not hide your true form in these lands, let all bask in your glory"

The King ruling over multiple higher beings, with Silk only arguably commanding one (Nyleth) and not by choice, also it was the Weavers that ruled Pharloom, not Silk.

[graceful grail]

Do you think when he went crazy somebody swapped his life ender for a shellwood sword and convinced him he made it (to keep people safe from his power)

[lime nova]

The PK is like a king of kings. He's the level above one's king

[stuck berry]

if i had a nickel for every long awaited indie release in 2025 where one of the more important side characters was a green man who is old

[graceful grail]

Or he passed thru Pharloom, it’s probably not even that far from Hallownest

[rose forge]

oh my god i thought you were talking about green prince being warrior material😭

[graceful grail]

Nah, zote, reread my message now with new light

[rose forge]

the level above a king is an emperor

[lime nova]

Ok

Thamk u

[rose forge]

pale emperor would have been such a better name

[lime nova]

Many bugs migrate to Hallownest, while bringing their HBs with them

Since HBs exist in dream, not space, they live where their followers are

[stuck berry]

would've sounded more evil though

[lime nova]

Anyone wanna call in vc and chat HK lore?

[rose forge]

does this imply that pilgrims are just born in bone bottom with one goal in mind of going to the citadel?

[lime nova]

No. Some are born in the citadel, but everyone is tasked with climbing to the highest peak

[dusk dove]

Based on the story ||does weaver ruins everything?||

[craggy smelt]

and some actually grey characters

[tribal cargo]

so the canonicall ending of hollow knight is assumed to be the godhome ending right?

[craggy smelt]

signs point to 'yes'

[lethal burrow]

From the original game

[dusk dove]

Hollow knight if there is someone with an above average communication skills with the higher being: 🌈

[keen summit]

Are hornet and lace related?

[craggy smelt]

Hornet's mother Herrah and Lace were created by the same god

though by different means

[keen summit]

Oh

[slow locust]

hornet race created by transforming arachnids (I forgot the name) with thread lace is entirely made of silk, hornet is only half weaver and probably there has been tens of generations before her

[hazy meadow]

HEY anyone here got a summary of what the weavers did

[craggy smelt]

got created by Silk
turned against her
made the Citadel
bailed on the kingdom
one of them had Hornet
they maybe all died

[muted lantern]

it's complicated, the weavers are lesser bugs that are evolved by grandmother silks power, she calls them her daughters, but the weavers resented that opinion. hornet is a child of the weavers, and lace is a child created by grandmother silk entirely out of her own silk, so while not blood related they are related through the silk that ties them all toghether, which you could argue is similar to sharing a family tree, its also funny to say that lace is hornets aunt technically, despite being a child. since she is the daughter of the creator of hornets mother.

[slow locust]

i'm 80% sure that silk and the weavers made the citadel then when they imprisioned silk they took over it

[craggy smelt]

it's described as a 'church and cage', a web created to imprison Silk - I don't think she had anything to do with its origins

[hazy meadow]

silk is the one bringing the weavers back right
shes ordering their hunting

[muted lantern]

ye presumably

[craggy smelt]

yeah, she's sending Citadel squads out after them by sensing their silk

[muted lantern]

she wants to bind them all is what she says i think

[slow locust]

ye

[muted lantern]

in one of the silk heart memories

[craggy smelt]

ultimately I think she wants to bind all souls to hers

[hazy meadow]

cool thanks im doing a media review for hk/ss

[craggy smelt]

(man it really is just the Radiance again, isn't it...)

[muted lantern]

I don't think she wants every being, i think its just the weavers

[slow locust]

i see more that she wanted revenge on them and also they were connected to her via her silk forever

[craggy smelt]

the cutscene after the Unraveled makes me think otherwise, since all that silk was bound into bugs

...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...
...They are ours... Bound forever...

[muted lantern]

hmm

[craggy smelt]

sounds like she's describing the Haunting
which presumably she isn't going to stop doing after she breaks free

[muted lantern]

I suppose it makes the pk an outlier, seems like a lot of gods just want everything to be unified under their control

then again, hes not too far off

unn wins again

[craggy smelt]

he seemed to want bugs to choose to devote themselves to him
they'd at least have more freedom than what Silk or Radiance were going to permit

[muted lantern]

it plays into my theory that gods are just innately possesive control freaks about mortals

and pk maybe chose to take on the form of a normal bug because he wanted to be different

which he achieved in some ways, though he was far from perfect, he certainly was a step above the absolute fucking insanity of gms and radi

[craggy smelt]

ironically, Hornet doesn't seem to have a high opinion of him, but it might be she is a lot like him

[muted lantern]

"oh god im becoming my father"

[craggy smelt]

ha haah, buzzsaws, drones

[muted lantern]

i mean she loves making sharp tools too ya

i wonder if pk resented his own father too

if he even has one

[craggy smelt]

now that's a whole other can of wyrms hur hur

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/darkest-dungeon-affliction-irrational-gif-11838038135160624284

[slow locust]

pk had a child so prob they can reproduce between each other

[muted lantern]

but yeah i wouldn't be surprised if hornet has a lot in common with the pk, i think she ended up far more down to earth than him, though.

[craggy smelt]

that reminds me, now that silksong is over, i still need to try out crimson curse...

nah

[slow locust]

nope

[muted lantern]

i just finished dd2, because the whole collectors edition with every game and dlc was over half off one weekend, so i got literally everything for like 40 bucks total

need to go back and do the dd1 dlc now

i think they just both slug based creatures, which there seems to be a lot of in pharloom

however, the name link is interesting

it is something to ponder, but i just can't see how it would work out

[craggy smelt]

total reach - Unn backwards would be Nnu, not Nuu!
completely different!

[muted lantern]

Nnu is Nuus mother clearly

[cobalt coyote]

Turn the name upside down

[muted lantern]

their eyestalks are the most striking similarity

and the name, i just cant see why they would be related logically

[craggy smelt]

hmm, wait a second...

[muted lantern]

the fucking name connection is throwing me so much right now

because like what?

but like, it feels so intentional

but also WHAT?

[craggy smelt]

wait... a... second...

aaaigh!!

[slow locust]

guys there isn't any more connection than the name and appearance there isn't anything more to discuss

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/darkest-dungeon-affliction-irrational-gif-11838038135160624284

[craggy smelt]

behold, Unnuu

[muted lantern]

allow us our confusion

somethings here, i can smell it

nothing insightful or valuable to the lore, but there something

if this is fucking intentional everyone dies

this thought is going to damage my psyche for years to come

[slow locust]

"nothing valuable to the lore"

• phantesmasl in #sk-lore

[muted lantern]

im doing a bit lol

[ebon silo]

Oh wait I just realized I think the drift tool ability was based off karmelitas jump n dive attack

Similar attacks

[craggy smelt]

Hollow Knight + Darkest Dungeon = Crowsworn, basically

Crowsworn will tide us over until the Silksong DLC
or possibly the other way around

[muted lantern]

speaking of darkest dungeon, someone needs to see this:

TELL ME THE FUCKING CRAWS ARENT HARNESSING THE GODDAMN IRON CROWN

especially funny with the line in dd2 saying the iron crown appeared across the world prevalent in in countless cultures

[craggy smelt]

"The Iron Crown... enigmatic, and ubiquitous."

[muted lantern]

world has gone to hell, even the craws are worshipping the heart of darkness

[craggy smelt]

it predates humanity... holloworld is the past of darkest dungeon world

[edgy stone]

Do the craws elect their judical leaders by who is the biggest bird

[muted lantern]

probably

[craggy smelt]

classic bird move
"I can puff up my chest really big! Have sex with me!"

[muted lantern]

they absolve you of your crimes not by proving your innocence, but by proving you are stronger, so it seems their views on right and wrong depend on the strongest individual present

also the craw memento absolves you of all craw crimes past and future, you have complete immunity in craw court

[edgy stone]

Are the craws pre act 3 even even possessed?

[muted lantern]

they are fully a might makes right belief system

[muted lantern]

no i think they are just like that

[edgy stone]

They have the smallest kingdom and attack you on sight for no good reason

[muted lantern]

they have thread in them, but they might be a mantis tribe situation? resisting the haunting

[craggy smelt]

they can get Void possessed, so they must be haunted as well, the Void follows the threads of the haunting

[edgy stone]

Did team cherry do the void enemies with that fully in mind?

[muted lantern]

I mean to be fair if i was in court and the the guy on trial was attacked by the judge and jury and somehow killed them all id probably say hes innocent too

[edgy stone]

Is there no instances of potential nonsilk enemies still getting voided

[muted lantern]

every creature in the kingdom has silk in them, its only a matter if they are haunted or not

[slow locust]

huh

[muted lantern]

caretaker says theres trace amounts of silk in all the creatures of pharloom, because of the whiteward experiments, which is how gms took control with the haunting shes controlling the silk within them, there was already traces of thread in every being in pharloom passed down generation by generation, kinda like microplastics

[lethal burrow]

they're not descendants of the white word experiments so it makes sense They're not Nearly as susceptible to the haunting.

[lethal burrow]

do they specify all creatures? I have a hard time imagining the Citadel giving immortality to the ants or craw and etc

[muted lantern]

i believe so, i can check later, but i believe its not just the whiteward expiriments, but the widespread use of silk permeating the entire kingdom, causing even the wildlife and the craws to have some silk within them. like the aformentioned comparison to microplastics.

[craggy smelt]

Hornet: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Caretaker: Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
Hornet: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
Hornet: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.

[slow locust]

nah he says that everyone is BORN with that

[craggy smelt]

hmm, the children having it makes sense, but all the pilgrims after...

are children born in the Citadel not allowed to stay there? Are they cast out into the world to become pilgrims?

or no, maybe the Silk is like PB said, like microplastics

[slow locust]

maybe when they saw that there was no reward and became apostates went down and never told their children about that

[craggy smelt]

just saturating into the world - it's in the air and water, like Greymoor shows with its dregcatchers

[muted lantern]

seems im incorrect, just read the line

was gonna post it but yak beat me to it

i misremembered, thinking it said it permeates all the kingdoms bugs

so i suppose the haunting in time afflicted even the non threaded creatures

or the microplastics theory is true without textual backing but just bc it makes sense

[craggy smelt]

yeah, the experiments would make the Citadel inhabitants themselves the most vulnerable, which makes sense
they were also at ground zero

[muted lantern]

while the line can kinda be read the way i thought it seems more implying it was just the pilgrims

but i still like microplastics theory bc its cool and relevant to our world

[craggy smelt]

Grand Mother Plastic

or microsilks

those are the jokes

[lethal burrow]

I just interpreted it as the white ward descendants being far more vulnerable but that does not mean others are invulnerable

the ants for example

[craggy smelt]

yeah, everything is vulnerable, but the descendants with silk already in their shells are especially vulnerable

[orchid spire]

What if the void is like a society

[lethal burrow]

I don't think you can live in the void

[craggy smelt]

what if it's not
like what if it's something else

[orchid spire]

I mean like what if each part of it is alive because at first it attacks hornet but is the knight like a leader or sum like that cuz when he shows up it just brings her back to the surface

[orchid spire]

What if it's 67.

[craggy smelt]

i think of its mind like a big soup of thought - not specific thoughts, just like a big pool of thought without direction or unity

the Knight brings it unity under their will

for whatever reason they have to beat up some of it to save Hornet - possibly it was all riled up from Silk's presence

[orchid spire]

So basically it was agitated when gms was pulled into it and thats why it started lashing out?

[lethal burrow]

voidheart tho....

[orchid spire]

Maybe the void heart is like a mark of the knight or something

[craggy smelt]

that's definitely why it attacked Pharloom

the Voidheart doesn't affect literally all Void though, it won't suppress the Collector, Kingsmoulds, or the Hollow Knight

so its possible for some Void to be influenced to ignore the will of the Knight

[orchid spire]

Like a mark of it having will and focus

[dapper willow]

it doesn't affect the back egg either
or the shade gates

(Although you need shade dash to get the voidheart anyway)

[craggy smelt]

it does suppress Void tendrils though

[dapper willow]

true

[orchid spire]

Maybe its like groups cuz in hk after u get the void heart the void stops attacking you the Hollow knight maybe its cuz he was affected by the radiance and the collector maybe cuz he was by himself for so long so its like whenever the knight travels somewhere he can control/command the void in that area

[craggy smelt]

Void that's been significantly influenced by other forces seems to be unaffected by the Voidheart
so maybe GMS like... saturated the Void in Pharloom with her silk/soul/power etc.

(got it all riled up)

[dapper willow]

the only thing voidheart does in game is making the tendrils/siblings friendly to ghost, and maybe rises up the void in the radiance dream

it doesn't seem to do as much as it implies

[normal pivot]

isnt voidheart a requirement for true ending in hk

[dapper willow]

it is

[craggy smelt]

Voidheart is described as unifying the Void under the Knight's will, and its the reason the Void appears and obeys the Knight in the first game's endings
so the reason the Knight seemingly isn't able to just will the Void in Pharloom into compliance is something of a mystery

we can but speculate

[lethal burrow]

unify like communism, not like hive mind

If that makes any sense

[dapper willow]

that is true
The worst case scenario is that its inconsistent writing

[craggy smelt]

the Knight and the Void and the siblings are still all distinct, if that's what you mean
(at least in DNM)

[craggy smelt]

which would be a real bummer

what insight I am hoping for is...
Jinn described her masters as being like the Knight once the Knight has the Void Heart
so it'd be interesting if they also have some sway over the Void

maybe TK only has command over the Void in the Hallownest region

[dapper willow]

yes
I would be sad

[wispy urchin]

why did the bugs come to get hornet long after the citadel collapsed
wouldnt the clad bugs have no mind?
or be dead?

[terse warren]

They're controlled by GMS and the Citadel "collapsed" like yesterday (within this generation of bugs)

[wispy urchin]

also since gms produces shitloads of silk anyway why do they need weavers and their descendants for their silk

[terse warren]

She's not omnipotent she can't make infinite

[wispy urchin]

doesnt the merchant when u first find her say "a settlement? in these long haunted halls?"

[wispy urchin]

but her creations can?

[terse warren]

No?

But 1+1 is higher than just 1

[dapper willow]

they can make more than her alone

[wispy urchin]

hornet tells them they want her for the silk she produces in her shell

[terse warren]

In this generation can mean it happened a couple years ago

Maybe it's been 5 or 10 years

[wispy urchin]

i thought long haunted halls meant a long ass time ago

not in a generation

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1423594277358796902/Screenshot_20250928_081949_Discord1.jpg?ex=68e0e0fc&is=68df8f7c&hm=f97c542299e1fb179714df083d1bc9a3d37e12e817cb03f5f4b71e8b9c2b94eb&

[terse warren]

But we know it's in a generation

[wispy urchin]

wher

[terse warren]

We literally meet people that have been alive since before the haunting

[lethal burrow]

among the cradle, there are markings that describe the captured weavers kin

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

Together with hornet being half weaver it adds up to 1 full weaver... I don't know what this means, but it means something I'm sure. And I think it is tied to the reason of the capture.

[wispy urchin]

when we absorb her in that one ending she has a shitload of silk

[terse warren]

Shitload≠infinite

She's using most of her silk for Lace anyways

[lethal burrow]

ant queen and green prince are freaks though tbf

[wispy urchin]

so how does she create a ton of creatures who have a ton of offspring that flee away from her that can produce their own silk but her being like 20 bugs tall cant produce most of what is necessary

also what do they use the silk for other than making mortal bugs immortal

[terse warren]

Fym ❌

Yes she is it says in the hunter journal

[wispy urchin]

oh so wait i jus realized
the ant singer and verdania were before gms
then she came and made the bugs religious, also made the weavers
they used the silk to make mortal bugs mortal? which when gms turned malicious (or was she always malicious) she took them over and reanimated them
the weavers fled so gms didnt control them(?)
they had kids and tracked them down and the weavers for their silk
the silk is for making the bugs immortal and what else???

[terse warren]

Then don't have a ton of offspring

Also she's been asleep for countless generations while her silk was harvested

Not that hard to believe she's lost power

[wispy urchin]

oh

[terse warren]

Karmelita and Green Prince probably weren't even born before GMS

[wispy urchin]

how do u know her silk was harvested/she was eepy

[terse warren]

We are told in multiple lines of dialogue

That the Citadel is her cage

That she's slumbering

And Whiteward tells us her Silk was harvested

[wispy urchin]

oh so
the bugs came and harvested her silk to become immortal
became religious because of this?

now my internal timeline is confused

[terse warren]

GMS made Weavers, some Weavers fled and some others made the Citadel to trap GMS, then the Chorus bugs came and killed the Weavers that were in the Citadel to take control over it, and then generations go by and GMS is starting to wake up from her Song-induced slumber and starts the Haunting

[terse warren]

Religion is used as a weapon here

They made the religion around GMS to 1. Hide the truth about their Silk usage 2. Make people complacent

"You have committed a sin most grave. Return to work off-cycle without eating or sleeping until a new cycle begins"

[wispy urchin]

ohhhh

hey its just like irl
anyway

[wispy urchin]

wait so gms made weavers then fell asleep?

[terse warren]

The Weavers for GMS into slumber because they wanted to rule

So they made the Citadel as her Cage and Church

And played songs to put her asleep

[wispy urchin]

OH thats what the widow cutscene is

[terse warren]

Yeah probably

[wispy urchin]

lol

if we had a timeline it would be sick

[terse warren]

I mean we know the order of most events

We have the ones I already said

[wispy urchin]

yea but like a sharable easy to access one

of everything

[terse warren]

We know that Phantom and Lace were made before the Citadel or at least during it

[silk vector]

I have this theory/headcanon that Green Prince’s lover was white in coloration. Like the white clovers you can find in Verdania. Green and white clovers.

[wispy urchin]

was there a wyrm in the marrow? theres a large spine and ribs that seem to go literally everywhere even through far fields

marrow deep docks far fields

[terse warren]

Nah just big bugs

[wispy urchin]

ah okey

[terse warren]

It's said they looked the same so I doubt

[wispy urchin]

arent all of the children that look like green price all green

[terse warren]

I mean technically it's not confirmed it's not a Wyrm but like

No reason to assume it is

[wispy urchin]

why would he be white

[terse warren]

Like, the Frontier bug is also fucking huge but it's not a Wyrm

[wispy urchin]

yeah but it certainly seems that way
it also explains sort of why kharak, sands, surface or verdania ETC had bugs with actual minds

[flint wadi]

i guess for duality

[terse warren]

There doesn't need to be an explanation

[flint wadi]

its a cool hc i dont see why it cant exist even if its not supported by anything

[terse warren]

Mantises in HK had a mind before the Pale King came by

[wispy urchin]

in the first game it was endless talk about expanding the minds of bugs except for mantis and unn

and it made it seem like wyrms were a huge part of kingdoms

well there were multiple in old pharloom

[silk vector]

I just thought of it because of the white clover and the fact he appears as a white apparition in the clover dancers fight

[terse warren]

And Mushrooms, Stalking Devouts, Mosskin, Moths...

[wispy urchin]

and there are worm (cylinderical ribs and spine) everywhere over the span of 3 biomes

[terse warren]

And Bees

[wispy urchin]

true

[terse warren]

Like, bugs having minds is really not uncommon lol

[wispy urchin]

so just a certain type of bug?

[flint wadi]

the point is that pk has done it on a large scale

and also made a cult following around his persona

[timber wharf]

hey guys, My mom made a hollow knight silksong theory!

just from watching me play lol

[wispy urchin]

seems more plausible but then i dont understand how the bugs of pharloom killed weavers and took control of the citadel

[flint wadi]

bugs with sapient minds really is not exclusive to wyrms or higher beings whatsoever

[terse warren]

I mean yeah specific types of bugs share common characteristics among themselves

[wispy urchin]

because if theyre the same bugs that were in hk that were mindless then how did they do that

[flint wadi]

weavers were not killed by the bugs of pharloom, they passed due to old age

pharlooms weavers might i add

[terse warren]

"Greedily taken"

[flint wadi]

the ones you see mumified in the spires

[timber wharf]

she said that Groal's skull hat/crown may be actually sentient and controlling him and giving him his powers lol

[terse warren]

He's getting his powers from absorbing a Snail Shaman's Soul

[wispy urchin]

i got told they were killed

[flint wadi]

that doesnt leave violence as the only conclusion, and given the state of the citadel its likely more about the bugs relishing in power

[terse warren]

It seems highly unlikely

[cobalt coyote]

Also the soul of lots of diffrent Bugs

[timber wharf]

yeah I saw the snail's corpse and got his soul, just wanted to put this here cuz I tought my mom making silksong theories was cute

[cobalt coyote]

The secret bench Has ALOT of bug bodies

[terse warren]

Imo some of em died of old age and mummified yes but others were killed

[cobalt coyote]

I just thought that he drained Bugs and the snail shaman off of soul

[terse warren]

Also because if the Weavers died out and only then did the Chorus find the Citadel, GMS would've just. Woken up from the lack of song

[wispy urchin]

still how did the bugs do that if they are the same bugs from HK that were mindless until the pale king showed up
or are the not the same type of mindless bug?

[silk vector]

If you think about it, Grand Mother Silk really is Hornet’s grandmother

[terse warren]

They clearly look different

[flint wadi]

weavers accepted that they will pass before someone who can "weave them free" comes
this gives me an impression that they gave up rule of the citadel to pursue other things while the conductors took over

[silk vector]

Masks?

[wispy urchin]

sort of

like they wear clothes now but they basically are the same

[flint wadi]

mmmm no thats not what i meant, obviously they would pass the ruling in their wake, just that they would non violently pass AFTER that

[terse warren]

I doubt tbh

But we don't have specific evidence on it so wtv

[flint wadi]

i dont see what beef citadel would have with weavers

they didnt want anything to do with gms

[wispy urchin]

the weavers held a mythical quality (at least by shakra's words) but the keeper in the vaults despised them so idk

[whole holly]

Weavers were kind of like GMS, with how they operated

[wispy urchin]

yea huh the silk made them immortal

injecting silk into themself made them no longer mortal bugs

[terse warren]

They were greedy and took it cause they wanted it for themselves

Just like the Weavers did for GMS

[terse warren]

Like, Chorus bugs taking it by force makes so much more thematic and narrative sense

[flint wadi]

bugs of pharloom just werent all wild, thats it, its not an uncommonality especially since pharloom had way more life pre grandma's arrival already

[wispy urchin]

what were the chorus macinations for
like fourth chorus
and what is the point in the cogwork core?

[lunar rain]

We thought after the delicate flower ending the godseeker and the shade lord were teleported to another place that we didn’t know, or was it?
Because when hornet takes the everbloom from her memory she takes the exact same one that was used in the ending because it has the same shape with the petal that was cut after communicating with the void in the delicate flower ending, and in the true ending of silksong the vessels and the knight(which are the shade lord) didn’t spawn until the flower disappeared.
My theory is that the flower sealed the shade lord and the godseeker.
Which means we might get another godmaster like dlc.

[silk vector]

The cycles of power struggle

[flint wadi]

sure i guess, weavers got a taste of their medicine

[terse warren]

Cogwork core is to make the citadel work

Machinations are automated workers

Choruses are war machines

[whole holly]

maybe flower ending is canon one

[wispy urchin]

wdym make it work
what were the choruses for tho they never saw use?

[terse warren]

Fourth Chorus was quite literally sent to kill Seamstress

[wispy urchin]

it was??

[flint wadi]

also, there were bugs on the surface that were lured by weavers into servitutde, could be some of the first members of the choir

[wispy urchin]

why and how did it end up lying there did pinstress 'kill' it?

[flint wadi]

it has her pin in it, she dealt with it

[terse warren]

Nameless Town is too complicated for me to ever want to think about it lol

[flint wadi]

idk i think its simpler than wherever it is that pilgrims come from kek

[terse warren]

The Citadel hunted the Pinstress order after they made the Sentinels as they had no more use for them

[terse warren]

lol yeah

Tbh tho the Nameless town husk looks nothing like any member of the chorus iirc..,

[flint wadi]

i mean i guess it contributes to the scale of it all

pilgrims come from many places

[wispy urchin]

ur saying shit idk about
what was seamstress and pinstress for other than narrative convenience

[flint wadi]

shows how grand the myth of the citadel is

[wispy urchin]

dude can mossbag make a video already god damn

figuring shit out for myself is hard

[flint wadi]

i think it looks like a horned pilgrim, either way its been like generations since weavers messed with that place so likely bugs just got replaced with newer bugs

[terse warren]

The Pinstress Order was a very powerful order of strong warriors. They were employed by the Citadel bugs to defend the Citadel. Eventually the Citadel made the Sentinels based off of the Pinstresses, and once the Sentinels were complete the Citadel hunted the Pinstresses because they were scared of them

[wispy urchin]

honestly i think nameless town solely exists for the mister mushroom ending

[wispy urchin]

OH i didnt know the sentinels were designed off of them

[flint wadi]

it also serves as a glimpse into citadels early days so no not quite

[wispy urchin]

its a ruined house and a few non hostile bugs and hornet goes "they arent hostile because they arent below gms" or something

and the needolin doesnt tell you much

[flint wadi]

yes and theres also needolin dialogue

it tells you a lot actually?
weavers sourced some of the bugs to maintain the citadel from the surface

with promises

[wispy urchin]

what does it say again because i apparently did not learn anything from the dialogue line

[flint wadi]

idk why are you strawmanning it like that

[terse warren]

They use the same charge attack

[flint wadi]

i dont have the text dump on me 😭

but i think it was something along the lines of
"the weaving ones beckon"
"everyone left"
"promises of something"

[wispy urchin]

what was the purpose of the citadel other than a society

because i know they played song to keep gms sleeping

why did you need a MASSIVE city with a mechanical core for that

[flint wadi]

elaborate trap for grandma silk

[silk vector]

They also harvested her silk

[wispy urchin]

that doesnt explain the city or the core

[terse warren]

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[wispy urchin]

all they did was play song to keep her sleeping

why did they need the citadel and the core

[flint wadi]

to automate the rest of the citadel, not for the purposes of song maybe, but the citadel generally branched out in what it was doing once the conductors took over

[terse warren]

Maybe the Citadel bugs were put into servitude by weavers and then they revolted and took power and that's what "greedily taken" is referring to 🤔

[wispy urchin]

now i have to rethink everything and work backwards with this information

[flint wadi]

for example ventrica lines were created to distribute the workers around the citadel faster

[wispy urchin]

automate what?

[flint wadi]

as i said, take ventrica travel

[wispy urchin]

whats the purpose of the citadel

[wispy urchin]

you dont need a skyscraper of moving gears for that

[flint wadi]

firstmost its the giant music box that keeps silk lulled away

[flint wadi]

you dont really know that

[wispy urchin]

have you seen a pneumatic tube system irl

[terse warren]

Make more automatons

[wispy urchin]

its the same concept just probably slightly scaled

[wispy urchin]

what part of it played the music? because the architects melody up top is only for the puzzle and not a constant singing thingy

[flint wadi]

the choir

the members of it that were singing their tunes

[wispy urchin]

all 3 parts or the architects melody that only activates once you complete its puzzle?

neither of those are constantly happening to be a song that keeps gms asleep

[flint wadi]

the threefold song seems to be a way to access the cradle

[wispy urchin]

yea

but thas not the melody thats keeping her sleeping

[flint wadi]

its not really the song that the citadel was performing to keep gms lulled away

and we likely cant know what song it was because gms is half wake now and the citadel is ravaged by haunting

[wispy urchin]

was it the bugs or the core that was singing

[flint wadi]

as to how it was performed?
maybe cogwork core did have music box elements to it

but im more leaning toward the choir

[wispy urchin]

RAHHHH i dont understand

[flint wadi]

cogwork core likely just contributed to citadels automations

[wispy urchin]

what the hell is the point of the core if its not a music box OTHER THAN
pneumatic tube system, cradle access

[flint wadi]

automation, very vague and up to interpretation

same as underworks

[wispy urchin]

underworks seems more plausible as a waste facility and exhaust than the core

[flint wadi]

it basically is an extention of underworks going up

[wispy urchin]

the core seems way to large for the system it probably also partly powers

[silk vector]

If you think about it, the Citadel is like one big instrument. The architects construct and maintain the instruments, the choir plays and sings along, and the vault keepers store and keep the sheet music safe.

Of course, below it all the common bugs slave away to keep it all afloat

[wispy urchin]

anyway honk mimi

[ancient dock]

Trobbio is a ex Grimm member

[flint wadi]

no

[ancient dock]

My head canon

We actually don’t know his backstory

[whole holly]

guys are similarities between Father of Flame and Grimm Troupe apparent to you as they are to me?

[lapis glen]

Why would you think that?????

[cobalt coyote]

I think that trobbio is just trobbio

[whole holly]

they are both ritual that use Flame and Flame sustains a God in both cases, eternal ritual in both cases

[whole holly]

one is Wisp Flame other is Scarlet Flame(Nightmare Essence)

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think Father is really a god

probably closer to vengeful spirit

[lapis glen]

Why is people obsessed with trying to connect silksong with the grimm troupe??? That the character is red or have relation with fire means nothing. The grimm troupe is hallownest related and not to pharloom, if in a dlc they do something related to them, then will be ok, but now try to enjoy the game andnew characters rather than trying to connect them to old ones just because of being a fan favourite

[maiden meteor]

Hornet says that bug inside Father’s lantern wished to be immolated completely

[silk vector]

So it’s a death cult

[maiden meteor]

Yeah probably

[whole holly]

but when we get Wisp tool it burns our Silk, which is unique interaction that tells us how Wisp flame interacts with Silk, maybe they did that on purpose and warded of GMS influence

[maiden meteor]

they do burn themselves after you destroy Father

[whole holly]

so is grimm troupe in sense that he dies because grimmchild is born after ritual is complete

[maiden meteor]

Maybe they had some sorta prophecy alike Judgement Day

[whole holly]

it is not illegal to make connection last time i checked, i am just trying to see similarities and parallels, i don't think they are connected lorewise

[molten python]

Grimm Troupe isn't Hallownest related, they travel to many places.

[maiden meteor]

Wisp Thicket is also only part of Greymoore still untouched interestingly enough

[whole holly]

maybe because of nature of Wisp Flame burning Silk itself , keeps Wisp Thicket safe?

[silk vector]

I meant the Father Flame cult

[maiden meteor]

Maybe Father of the Flame wished to immolate himself to burn all of the silk out?

and instead became deity of sorts

[whole holly]

i know i was just making comparison because Troupe master Grimm also dies

[craggy smelt]

or to keep from being revived by the silk

[maiden meteor]

Father is also located above Bellhart which is the only major Citadel city outside of, well, Citadel

[whole holly]

i wish we got DLC where we use our Wisp Tool to defeat GMS and get unique ending of GMS burning

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think wisp flame is that strong

esp after we destroy Father

[whole holly]

okay okay

[lament totem]

guys how will lace survive now

she need silk to sustai

[whole holly]

i am pretty sure father is not source of Wisp Flames, and Wisp flame is from silk burning?

[whole holly]

she has hornet ig

[lament totem]

it said in the notes by hornet something

[lament totem]

and that would be enough?

i mean shes entirely made of silk

[maiden meteor]

my headcanon is that GMS gave Lace her powers/motherload of silk

[lament totem]

i feel bad for GMS icl but i feel more for loam

[maiden meteor]

during sequence where she powered Hornet’s super silk soar

[whole holly]

well, after Hornet binds eva she gets infinite silk, after she binds GMS she becomes Silk Goddess herself

[lament totem]

not mine

it would be so funny tho lol

[maiden meteor]

I mean we don’t even know how often and how much silk Lace needs

[molten python]

I don't think she'll just instantly die.

[maiden meteor]

maybe she needs spool worth of silk weekly

[molten python]

Much Silk was used to see her sustained. She'll probably live a long time more.

[lament totem]

but doesnt binding just like

idk how to say

[molten python]

Silk Hearts exist.

[lament totem]

i wouldve loved to see aftermath of act 3 ending man

guys btw what happens to the snails after we get out of hornets memory?

[maiden meteor]

My goat Sprintmaster rebuilds Pharloom into giant running track

[lament totem]

only thier shells are there

[maiden meteor]

they die

[lament totem]

why

i mean how

[maiden meteor]

probably because of spell’s strain

[whole holly]

Troupemaster Grimm takes Wisp Flame from hornet and becomes Firemaster Grimm

[molten python]

I wish we learned more about what happened in Hallownest. They really showed the Hollow Knight breaking free and confronting Hornet and left us there.

[silk vector]

If sprintmaster really wants a challenge he should race Shakra

[maiden meteor]

we know Lifeblood goes rowdy post ending

[lament totem]

that one snail all the time: oiiii oiiiii oyiii

like stfu sherma is more important

[molten python]

Have you seen escalions?

[maiden meteor]

It’s nice Shamans decided to sacrifice themselves after fucking up that hard

instead of just dipping

[silk vector]

They probably planned to get to it in the Hornet DLC, but then it became Silksong

[lament totem]

they saw thier god and though it was high time they rest

but they shouldve just jumped

[maiden meteor]

When your “God” sucks so bad you decide to kill yourself

[maiden meteor]

tbf unlikely it’d work

[lament totem]

what wouldve happened

[maiden meteor]

Hornet would probably chase them to the ends of Pharloom

[lament totem]

would the void just

[maiden meteor]

oh do you mean jump into abyss

[lament totem]

yes

[maiden meteor]

I thought like “jump the ship”

[lament totem]

nah

[maiden meteor]

naw they probably aren’t that suicidal

[lament totem]

gms screams in act 3 are so terrifying lol

[lament totem]

oyiii oiii oii

i hate that mf

he didnt even have a proper snail shell

[maiden meteor]

Shamans probably realized they fucked up and decided to wait for their eventual end in Chapel

until everything else happened

[lament totem]

what were they expecting tho

void takes gms and happ ending

[maiden meteor]

I mean Lace jumping into action was an unexpected thing

which set off the disaster

At worst Hornet would die in the void along GMS

(or wouldn’t considering Sister of the Void ending)

[lament totem]

prob wouldnt die due to being "sister of void"

[whole holly]

all endings are kind of horrible, for citizens of Pharloom, we need better ending, it is more possible than Hollow Knight ending where best was Dream No More or Flower Ending

[maiden meteor]

I mean Act 3 ending is kinda chill

Haunting is gone and so is Void

[somber raptor]

is ||hivesteel|| in reference to the bee tribe?

[maiden meteor]

remaining pilgrims can finally rebuild now

[somber raptor]

or what tribe is hornet talking about during the upgrade dialogue?

[maiden meteor]

Have you been to Act 3 yet

[somber raptor]

given the patterns thats my first thought at least

[whole holly]

guys is Seth empowered by Nyleth? like does Seth have foliage on his body because of nyleth's mystical powers?

[somber raptor]

not yet

[maiden meteor]

then you’ll see 🤫

[somber raptor]

ok cool

[maiden meteor]

also it’s generally bad idea to look here before completing game since that’s no spoiler tag zone

[whole holly]

everybody was saying Nyleth's power are biological rather than Mystical so i want answer

[maiden meteor]

Nyleth is probably just a plant on steroids

Maybe she gave Seth sustenance

[whole holly]

so how does she Empower Seth and seth forgets his memories after we fight him

[whole holly]

like Drugs?

[maiden meteor]

Maybe some spore mind control?

[whole holly]

okay what the hell, sure

[maiden meteor]

we see little plant guys spread spores

[lament totem]

yeah but it wouldve definitely been better to see pharloom rebuilding from the destruction

[maiden meteor]

for all we know they def will rebuild

Bone Bottom settlers are alive, songclave settlers are alive, Bellhart too

[whole holly]

i can't wait for Lifeblood DLC resurrect Last Successors/Old Hearts, and give areas more Beauty as well as get actual name for Abyss Creature and fight him later in Game

[maiden meteor]

Pharloom seems to have it way better than Hallownest at least

[whole holly]

Coral Forest, Verdania, Shellwood and Hunter's March become Plasmified

[maiden meteor]

DLC where Hornet gets flamethrower to eradicate Lifeblood

[whole holly]

wispflame ? and Nightmare DLC?

[maiden meteor]

nah just good ol napalm

We gotta firebomb Wormways

[whole holly]

i want Nightmare Troupe and Plasmified Bugs to be Rivals

[maiden meteor]

imma be for real Pharloom probably isn’t dead enough for Troupe

Hallownest basically only had 1 functioning tribe

and Pharloom still has plenty of settlements

[whole holly]

don't they visit Dying Kingdoms or Dead Kingdoms? haunting was bound to create Nightmares and Whiteward especially

[maiden meteor]

And God-Devouring Void def would be a deterrent for Nightmare Heart

[whole holly]

well that's just assumption, LoS has emotions and he recognized hornet, he would recognize Grimm too as well as Lifeblood and not intervene

[maiden meteor]

id say Pharloom is still up and kicking, esp with Horney around

[maiden meteor]

I mean before ending it seems like Void acts on pure instinct rather than by Knight’s will

So it def would attack Troupe should they be in Pharloom in act 3

[zinc pivot]

Why wouldn’t they give two fucks about the ones who have desecrated their homeland for their purpose?

[whole holly]

but it has experienced Dying, after GMS became Prominent death of other civilizations, after Haunting, as well as Void version of Haunting, and Whiteward, even if it not dying anymore sheer amount of death should be enough

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think Whiteward alone would be enough

[whole holly]

maybe Knight is fine with that? he used Lifeblood himself so

[maiden meteor]

in original Troupe collects essence all over Hallownest

[whole holly]

i listed other things

[zinc pivot]

Not the Troupe certainly, using Hallownest as feeding ground for their own godly being

[whole holly]

knight assisted them? lol

[maiden meteor]

Brumm also kinda implies Ritual is sorta harmful for place?

since he urges us to not help troupe feed on Hallownest

[terse warren]

Well more so he says that members of the troupe are kinda forced to be such

[maiden meteor]

Maybe once Troupe collects Nightmare Essence kingdom is truly dead

[terse warren]

Source 1. He is clearly not there of his own volition

2. He talks about the chains holding down the Grimmchild or smt

[whole holly]

maybe, but i want Nightmare and Lifeblood DLC, should be named Heart and Blood DLC

[maiden meteor]

iirc he also says smth about “leaving this kingdom alone”

[whole holly]

i don't really care how ritual affect hallownest though or how it could affect pharloom, as long as everything is great in the end

[maiden meteor]

“Perhaps together we can banish that livid flame and let this dead Kingdom rest in peace.”

I was thinking of this quote

[zinc pivot]

So you followed me here, to where the Ritual began. You would join me in breaking it then?
It is painful to defy the Master, but our harvest... it profanes this dark, quiet Kingdom. This once, I would see the Ritual fail.

[terse warren]

Grimm Troupe goes to dying Kingdoms, Pharloom is anything but

[maiden meteor]

it’s kinda sad Brumm still struggles to betray Grimm

[terse warren]

Like the whole point of Silksong was to stop Pharloom from dying as a kingdom

[maiden meteor]

maybe Grimm is actually nice guy and it’s the Heart Brumm stands up against

[whole holly]

in some endings yeah, but it is bound to be dying if Plasmium Infection and other catastrophes takes over

[whole holly]

Hornet Gotta fix that too

[terse warren]

That is the case yeah, Brumm talks about the Grimmchild being a slave to the cycle too

[zinc pivot]

Not much we know about the Troupe, they are kinda like vultures of kingdoms

[maiden meteor]

What if Grimm was his own person before being enslaved by Heart too

[whole holly]

what if he isn't

[zinc pivot]

It’s hard to tell whether Grimm serves as the avatar or the vessel of nightmare heart

[maiden meteor]

He looks distinct enough to me tbh

He acts towards Heart’s interests but so does entire Troupe

[terse warren]

I figure Grimm was just another Grimmchild before

[maiden meteor]

Yeah but like

what if there was THE original Grimm

just normal guy enthralled by Heart

Nightmare Heart is really weird

it’s Dream entity but has physical avatar

[zinc pivot]

Whats weirder about it is, how does other kingdom participant finish the ritual?

[maiden meteor]

Maybe there’s other way to finish the ritual

[zinc pivot]

Because you need something like dream nail to enter dream realm and defeat NKG

[maiden meteor]

and Knight just kinda bruteforces it

We know that Troupe was supposed to be summoned by totally different bug than Knight

(presumably)

or it’s all a ruse

we know that dreams/memories can be accessed in different ways too

like Needoline with Elegy of the Deep

(yes I think dreams and memories are the same)

[zinc pivot]

My little dude be like
Look red essence particle, wonder what cool memory is inside

[maiden meteor]

I wonder if we’ll ever see other ways to interact with dreams

we have Needoline, Dream Nail, and presumably Shamans can do it too

since Elegy comes from them

Higher Beings seem to be able to interact with dreams too

since PK somehow hid White Palace there

and Void can invade dreams as seen in DNM and EtV endings

[zinc pivot]

Strangely enough White Palace is considered a real location

Based on how all the deaths there is physical, especially fatal if you are in steel soul

[whole holly]

that is why i think that Palestag is Essence Construct from imagination

[maiden meteor]

btw this makes me think why’d Shamans need a way to enter memories

did they collect dream essence for some of their experiments?

[compact escarp]

Can anyone explain the cutscene after needolin-ing the GMS? How did the void literally appear and consume GMS tho? Did caretaker set them up somehow?

[maiden meteor]

Ancestral Shaman also knows when we’re looking inside their mind

[zinc pivot]

It supposedly activate the spell that opens a portal to the abyss

And yes its a product of caretaker

[maiden meteor]

Caretaker’s “trap” was a portal to void

[south estuary]

the caretakers trap that hornet sets for them transports gms to the void, and because of how much power gms has the void then spreads to pharloom using that power

[maiden meteor]

also because GMS actively struggles against void to protect Lace

[compact escarp]

Ah that explains alot ty

[zinc pivot]

Not power, the silks she has hold in Pharloom

[south estuary]

basically the same thing

[maiden meteor]

if it wasn’t for Lace’s intervention GMS would presumably just die

[zinc pivot]

Sounds too confusing, can’t just chuck it up to being some sort of ‘power’

[olive axle]

Is GMS dead in TE

Okay

[zinc pivot]

You ate her you namesake

[maiden meteor]

yeah pretty much

[olive axle]

Oh i forgot about that

[zinc pivot]

No mind to think fr

[maiden meteor]

We save Lace, GMS gives us last ounce of her power and presumably void consumes the rest

[olive axle]

That's mean ):

[zinc pivot]

You also shouldn’t have voice to cry suffering

[olive axle]

I'm not the Knight though

[maiden meteor]

born of god and void

[olive axle]

You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams

[zinc pivot]

You are the Vessel

[olive axle]

You are the hollow Knight

[maiden meteor]

wonder how many players remember this quote by heart lmao

[south estuary]

theory!!!
specific bugs are gifted with enlivened hearts, granting them extreme power like crust king khanns ability to warp coral, nyleths power to bring life and intelligence towards nature, skarrsinger karmelitas to um sing idk, and green princes gay love. the enlivened hearts also grant the bug to live on long after death through their dreams, but it seems the dream and mind comes directly from the heart itself rather than the heart gifting it towards the mind of the bug cus ykw. a statue of nyleth just spits out her heart.

pee

[zinc pivot]

You mean by the
Void Heart

[olive axle]

pee

[mint furnace]

If Green Princes heart gives him the power to make gay tornados, that must mean Trobbio had one too

[south estuary]

ohh ur right

[maiden meteor]

Prince is empowered by yaoi

[ebon silo]

Hmmm

Could prime verdania defend itself from the prime skarr tribe assuming it's the skarr that's invading

I don't think the yaoi are winning against karmelita

[trim lark]

can karmelita react to incredibly telegraphed movement

if the answer is yes she wins

[ebon silo]

I mean she is incredibly fast she could just force to stop the sync by idk jumping on the other prince

Y'know skarr don't play fair

For all we know karmelita would just try to jump like literally piggyback one of the prince

[ancient isle]

I feel like verdania enemies are stronger than skarr but also we get to see what verdania used to be and the skarr that we do see arent doing too well rn

[languid frigate]

Guys please tell me who is mr mushroom is this like team cherry inside joke or something its only thing except hornet herself that shows in both games

[ebon silo]

True but prime skarr those were united by karmelita they also have gurr

[ebon silo]

It's just a joke from team cherry

[ancient isle]

yeah tc joke

[languid frigate]

I though so this guy is really misterious

[ancient isle]

also more is inbetween the games but js hornet btw

[ancient isle]

Yeah thats what i was thinking

But I mean in karmelitas dream thingy the enemies still arent too bad

[ebon silo]

If it's a boss fight I think karmelita would still 1v2 the prince because she "maybe" so that's an assumption would not play fair and try to piggyback or desync the fight but for the battlefield yeah there's no way verdania is defending not just the large enemies but the ant colonies

[ancient isle]

Yeah karmelita beats the princes easy

[mint furnace]

He is the herald

[languid frigate]

Idk this all lore

[mint furnace]

Not that we have a great sample size, but it seems he shows up in dying kingdoms

[ancient isle]

but still i think the normal enemies are putting up a good fight

[ebon silo]

Yeah but still a numbers game

[mint furnace]

And then speaks about random bullshit that’s incomprehensible half the time

[ancient isle]

We dont see the full verdania nor do we see full prime skarr

small ants arent trained to fight

[ebon silo]

That is infact true

[ancient isle]

I mean its likely that the skarr win cause they are still around i suppose

[ebon silo]

They don't have to they can just infiltrate the houses the area itself and tear it down

[ancient isle]

Verdania has palestag and all of the skarr tribe will die of mental suffering

But true there are heaps of ants

[ebon silo]

not unless gurr tries to capture it or something he does survive the haunting to an "extent"?

[ancient isle]

I mean I think just cause we dont really see everything its hard to know, the verdania enemies are so fast but skarr are like a hunting tribe and all so yeah

well id assume prime is before the haunting anyways right, so everyone would be a lot stronger probs

[ebon silo]

Regardless of how fast they are they would eventually tire like how humans hunted animals you can't keep up with them but eventually you'll react it because they tire too quickly

[ebon silo]

Prime before the haunting and y'know everyone is united nothing's wrong etc

[ancient isle]

Well skarr are ants not humans

But yeah

I think its also worth noting (unless im missing something important) that the memories are like, their memories

Everything is likely to be better and more glorious and all in the memories, not that it was probably bad at all

But its just a hard thing to even try think about when you just know so little

[ebon silo]

Well yess

True

But might as well make one even if it's limited knowledge it's fun

Now the crust khan army yeah I don't think the skarr are winning

Well not unless the khans power works only when there's crust to be manipulated?

[ancient isle]

Considering with the tower and all and the journal notes, I think they all stayed inside the tower so its safe to assume that the coral power only works if you have coral

[ebon silo]

Yeah

So if the skarr are invading they lose though if the khans are invading they lose so ehhh

I don't think karmelita can dodge the coral spikes fast enough

Unless she would try to prevent Khan from manipulating it by continuously throwing curvesickles

[ancient isle]

And i dont think the khans are probably gonna invade they base their whole attacks around having coral and the all that

[ebon silo]

Yeah so it's a no brainer

[edgy barn]

It's weird that the journal entries says that they stayed inside the tower because the snail shamans tells us that the karakans under Khann ruled half of pharloom once.

[ebon silo]

Yeah the skarr ain't winning

Though they have such a huge upper hand though it's fking crust coral and they can just bring it up and up with no issues no wonder they ruled half of pharloom

[ancient isle]

Well maybe just the ones trained to guard the tower stayed, cause the tower wasnt the only part of that coral area (sands of karak and all)

Not sure outside of that though I assume just being so strong let them rule so much

[ebon silo]

Thank god they lost because of pollution

Thank phantom for using the exhaust organ

[ancient isle]

Id prefer them to GMS

[ebon silo]

Well yes of course

The Khan might've been more friendlier than the obvious evil silk mother

[ancient isle]

and also, no bilewater would be nice

[ebon silo]

True

[edgy barn]

I checked again and only the Karak Gor (the big guys) are said to have spent their whole lives inside the tower. That makes more sense

[ancient isle]

Ah alright I had js assumed it to apply to most that's mb

[humble iron]

The idea that Phantom could make multiple civilization go extinct through playing her organ is very funny

[pale grove]

phantom the reason why 70% of tribes around citadel are dying

[zinc pivot]

Dies Irae spare noone

[edgy barn]

Eh that's only true for the stilkin and roach tenders.

And besides it's not like she's willingly playing the organ.

[pale grove]

i wonder if the shamans have a diety they worship or do they know how to use soul just outta nowhere

[pale grove]

she aint?

[humble iron]

No one implied Phantom was willingly doing it, +it's a joke

[ebon silo]

Is it me or does the hunter crest look suspiciously the head of the crust king Khann? Well the crust were called hunters right?

[edgy barn]

I know

[humble iron]

prolly just a coincidence, Khan is not really a hunter

[ebon silo]

Didn't dude rule half of pharloom

before

[humble iron]

yeah that's not really a hunter thing

[edgy barn]

Not all that simmilar

[pale grove]

not that similar

[ebon silo]

I'm talking about the original one

It does strike something but not that similar

[humble iron]

If a crest were related to Khan I would use the word conqueror not hunter

[edgy barn]

It looks closer but still, not that simmilr

[ebon silo]

It kinda does but not that similar you could see hornets shell if you like cut off the 2 ends

[edgy barn]

Yeah that's probably intentional

[ebon silo]

I wonder if they ever make the original hunter crest a different crest

Literally the pale kings crest but then again the pale king has no involvement

[edgy barn]

isn't it just strictly worse than the upgrades

[ebon silo]

How so though

[edgy barn]

wait were you refferring to exactly?

[humble iron]

the unused pale king looking crest I think

[ebon silo]

I know this was the original crest design for the hunter but I do wonder if they'll make it a completely new crest

[humble iron]

Yeah that's basically PK

[ebon silo]

Yeah but considering he has no involvement well I don't think it's happening

unless..it was for the hollow knight?!! New crackhead theory

[humble iron]

Well DLCs are always a thing

So I wouldn't entirely count PK out

Though tbh I wouldn't be that interesting to have PK involved in Pharloom

[edgy barn]

Ohhh that. I thought yo meant the basic unevolved crest

Btw

[past cypress]

Hunter crest is 100% a weaver-wyrm hybrid

[flint wadi]

yk i always forget about this scene

i think it kinda solves why most of pharlooms weavers are dead

they couldve died mid banishment of silk

which would explain why their rule was "greedily taken" by the bugs at the citadel

could this perhaps predate the banishment

[edgy barn]

I thought this scene was meant to take place when the weavers were still under GMS

[flint wadi]

the burden is passed as in the citadel is locked and loaded with bugs

[spark valve]

it was yes

[flint wadi]

so this is more about worship?

[edgy barn]

Yeah. This is also Widow's memory so

[flint wadi]

idk why but to me it just makes more sense as to why weavers would assist pilgrims in the climb BEFORE banishment, as a way of gathering more bugs to perform the lullaby

[humble iron]

Yeah weavers had a pretty clever slavery system

[flint wadi]

the cult following surrounding weavers also just works better if they somehow disappeared after it, it would certainly facilitate the mythologization of them

[sharp valley]

I just realized that weavers don’t really have names, the only named one is herrah the beast, and hornet who was most likely named by queen wespa, other weawers only have nicknames like “the widow “ or first sinner

[humble iron]

They do have name though lol

look at the weaver effigies

Widow probably doesn't remember since she's mad and first sinner is just a title

[flint wadi]

^ this and weavenests that are named after them

[edgy barn]

Widow is a name, not a title

Anyone calling her "The Widow" is just plain wrong

[trim lark]

isnt there a theory that first sinner is atla

[past cypress]

Widow, Phantom, Atla, Eva...

One might argue Eva, Phantom and Lace aren't really weavers but they're definitely part of weaver culture

[humble iron]

Likely not her birth name though

[humble iron]

Eva is at least part weaver

[edgy barn]

ehhh Eva sure but Phantom and Lace were not made by weavers and possibly even only existed after they were gone

[trim lark]

i wonder what kind of weaver absolom was

[edgy barn]

That's the abyss weavenest right

[flint wadi]

ye

[trim lark]

yeah

notably where you get the farsight which is kinda crazy now that i think about it

[flint wadi]

maybe it was a weaver of knowledge

[trim lark]

mfs made an invention to view the entire worlds like

idk how to describe it in a way that makes sense

[shy island]

Assuming he was scaled down to bug. Do you guys think Penitent One from Blasphemous could reach the citadel, kill grandma silk or even go to the abyss?

[trim lark]

blasphemous is unfortunately nowhere near my field of expertise lmao

[shy island]

It should because it’s peak go play it

[trim lark]

anyways what movement can the penitent do

because i guess we're assuming they cant bind weavers

[edgy barn]

They can't reach GMS because no clawline

[shy island]

Fair

[trim lark]

actually are they able to swing downwards lol

[shy island]

I think so yeah

[edgy barn]

But if they were to reach her some other way, Mea Culpa has killed gods before so it's fair to assume it can do the job this time.

[humble iron]

Probably a fucking genius, studying the void and making the farsight is insane feats

[shy island]

What about the void do you think he can handle lost lace

[humble iron]

They probably designed the bell too and comissioned it to the deep dock bugs

[edgy barn]

Do we assume the Silk Soar weaver is Absolom herself? (Same for Sharp Dart being Karn)

[trim lark]

i suppose it would make sense

[humble iron]

No idea, she might have named the den but multiple weavers lived there right

since multiple did in atla

Though it would make sense that the most powerful one would be the one to give you the powerup aka absolom

[trim lark]

cindril was presumably just all in on speed

and murglin makes guns i guess

[past cypress]

Just wanted to comment on this, "has no involvement" isn't really true. Not physically, but PK being Hornet's dad is a colossal thing in Silksong ("Prove yourself more weaver than wyrm" and the rest of Red Memory) because Hornet, just like him, fucked with the void and it ended badly. PK's influence is definitely still there and if the void plays a part in the DLCs then he will too.

[trim lark]

wait a min what if cindril is who we get swift step from

[edgy barn]

Lost Lace is way too fast

[edgy barn]

Wouldn't Cindril have fled?

[humble iron]

Afterall she's the one to have planned an escape route

[humble iron]

Maybe she stayed behind so the other member of her nest could leave

[trim lark]

yeah its a bit of a stretch on my part
cindrils weavenest is on the other side of far fields from deep docks, where swift step is

[humble iron]

Since she's a nest leader it would make sense

[trim lark]

but like i feel itd fit yknow
the one whos all about speed gives you the sprint

[humble iron]

It would make a lot of sense yeah

It's not really that far from her nest tbf

It's at the edge of far fields

[trim lark]

actually looking at the room why does the swift step room look a lot like far fields

[humble iron]

because it's at the border

and typically the transition from deep docks and hunter's march is also more vegetalized

[edgy barn]

Alright I'm pretty sure now Swift Step is Camora

[humble iron]

Camora ?

[trim lark]

camora?

[humble iron]

Which one is that

[trim lark]

it appears on an effigy

[humble iron]

oh she's the one of healing ?

[trim lark]

camoras effigy all the way over below wormways entrance

[humble iron]

That has nothing to do with swift step and she's found in mosshome

*west of mosshome mb

[trim lark]

the hell was this thing doing here btw

[indigo jasper]

Good morning/afternoon/evening gentlemen, please provide the weirdest piece of hollow lore you know

[edgy barn]

Carving of Camora, Weaver of healing. A prayer is etched upon it. "Weaver, heal my sons, their fearful hearts, their limbs that shake at the climb to come. We pray, gift but a glimmer of your strength, that when we stand before your divinity, you see bugs shed free of fear."

Located West of Mosshome, below the entrance to Wormways.

"Weaver of Pharloom.
By grace you warded. By thread you healed.
For your favour, eternal, we offer our song. "

-Lore tablet exactly beneath swift step

[trim lark]

each rosary converts to 0.08 usd using some very shoddy calculations

[humble iron]

Aah I forgot about the lore tablets good catch

[trim lark]

i see

[edgy barn]

this is likely Cling Grip btw

[trim lark]

is there a lore tab near cling grip

[humble iron]

Keelal is also described as having grace though so it could fit "by grace you warded", and First Sinner is shown healing itself with silk so idk if the healing aspect is definitely a sign of it being Camora

[trim lark]

or is it just proximity since shellwood

[edgy barn]

"Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear,
No longer your meal. "

[indigo jasper]

I wish to know said shoddy calculations, since I love those

[trim lark]

ive seen some draw the connection that first sinner is atla due to the atla effigy being in the slab, locked by apostate key

[humble iron]

It's the most probable tbh

[flint wadi]

i think its silkspear, the tablet below her spire says how she warded pilgrims and healed them through thread

[edgy barn]

Oh wait

[humble iron]

That makes more sense to me

[edgy barn]

Yeah lol

I was mixing Swift Step with Silk Spear

[humble iron]

Proximity wise asw

[trim lark]

dies

[humble iron]

Aaah I see

What is Swift Step's lore tablet ?

[indigo jasper]

Ah, I see. That shoddy is doing a lot of work lmao. I wish to know more exact numbers. Also do we know hornet and the knight’s height?

[flint wadi]

i think its broken?

might not be though

[indigo jasper]

‘Ye do be running fast with these ADIDAS’

[humble iron]

if it's broken can't you play the needolin or smth

[edgy barn]

There isn't one

[trim lark]

i just googled cheap wine and went from there lmao

[humble iron]

Damn could've sworn there was one in the room below ?

[edgy barn]

If it's broken it won't work

[indigo jasper]

Wait doesnt he sell nectar tho?

[flint wadi]

thats the thing i dont think it works?

[humble iron]

alright I see, so Cindril's the most likely

[trim lark]

the nectar seems be a parallel for wine, seeing how it the more it ages, the more valued it is and with how its stored

[flint wadi]

i think its cindrils too

[humble iron]

(in absence of more evidence I mean)

[trim lark]

and also i didnt feel like searching for nectar on google shop

[flint wadi]

it just makes sense that they would be asigned to weavenest namesakes and cindril's weavenest specifically tests quick step

[indigo jasper]

Ok. Now correct me if I am wrong, nectar is the sweet thing in flowers that attracts bugs right?

[trim lark]

ive no idea but i think so

[mystic fiber]

green prince loved his sibling who was almost an exact copy of himself, making green prince technically both narcissist and gay

[humble iron]

Not his sibling imo

[flint wadi]

theyre not siblings

[humble iron]

It's just said they were soulmates

[flint wadi]

same species, not siblings

[mystic fiber]

oh mb

[humble iron]

stop making it into incest

[mystic fiber]

twin

[indigo jasper]

Im pretty sure. So, if there is nectar, where are they getting it from? Also most pollinator bugs are smaller than flowers, but the flowers we see are like tiny. Also if there is nectar, then there must be pollinators, and what is the most prevalent pollinator? BEES. I have proven it here ladies and gentlemen, bees are a thing in hollow knight. No need to award me here

[flint wadi]

nectar comes from the teat

[humble iron]

Murdering the flower enemies I would assume

[flint wadi]

bosom

[trim lark]

Swift Step - Cindril
Cling Grip - Keelal maybe
Needolin - Widow, forcefully
Clawline -
Silk Soar - Absolom maybe
Sylphsong - Eva

Silk Spear - Camora
Thread Storm -
Cross Stitch - we dont even bind this we just learn it from Phantom
Sharpdart - Karn
Rune Rage - First Sinner (Atla?)
Pale Nails - GMS' arm

[flint wadi]

do what you will with this information

wouldnt clawline just be whatever weavenest you find it in

[trim lark]

i have extra context
some of the translations are really weird and make it seem like its incest somehow

[flint wadi]

seems like a safe thing to default to

[trim lark]

we find it underworks

[flint wadi]

OH clawline

i thought sharpdart kek

[trim lark]

i forgot what the name of john sharpdart was

[humble iron]

Yeah the translations seem to love not being ambiguous in the slightest

[humble iron]

karn

What about Murglin, do they give you anything

[trim lark]

the only one we know of and we havent accounted for is murglin but maybe man just escaped