sk-lore

[silver spire]

it comes down to personal preference on whether you like something or not, but when judging the quality, there are metrics you can use

[keen compass]

He doesn't understand what instinct is

[muted lantern]

im not touching this conflict with a 10 foot pole

[keen compass]

Nothing was retconned....

Come tf on lol

[sinful nimbus]

But none of these frameworks are objectively more useful than the other for determining quality

[bronze turret]

Chilli, you are in the ss-lore channel. This is what it is for. If the tone of the discussion is not suiting you for the moment, it would be best to dwell in another channel.

[lethal burrow]

[barren beacon]

Herrah

[fringe comet]

the double damage works for the game design cause the healing and combat is different

[silver spire]

so a child's stick figure drawing is no better than the mona lisa? a toddler pounding piano keys is no more cacophonous than the canzonas of gabrieli?

[fading mountain]

oke

[keen compass]

Not retconned, adding to the lore is not the same as retconning

[teal finch]

here we go

[keen compass]

What was retconned exactly?

[barren beacon]

I thought she was retconned into being a weaver?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes.

[rancid dagger]

im gonna leave this one to the herrah body shape experts

[limpid summit]

RETCON LIST

[lethal burrow]

depends who you ask and in what way and what criteria you're working with

[barren beacon]

@lethal burrow do you have those images that summarize most of the argument?

[lethal burrow]

harrah being a Weaver

[sinful nimbus]

What if I don't like Mona Lisa

[keen compass]

she was always a spider

[silver spire]

then i think you're being intellectually dishonest when you say that people would rather listen to the poundings of a child than a pleasant brass quintet

[limpid summit]

3 queens

[rancid dagger]

Herrah
Void heart
snail shamans
arguably lifeblood
dont know if im missing stuff

[barren beacon]

Never referred to as a weaver in HK, iirc she was referred to as a "Simple beast"

[keen compass]

not a retcon, an addition

[limpid summit]

Void heart wasn’t retconned

[barren beacon]

Also how different she looks in Red memories

[silver spire]

it is subjective, but we can use objective measures to justify the quality that we propose

[lethal burrow]

I wouldn't call it a summary, but they're definitely good for showcasing it

[edgy nebula]

how were shamans retconned

[sinful nimbus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_music

[keen compass]

not referred to as a weaver vut she was a spider

[limpid summit]

Otherwise yes
Herrah Weaver
shamans studying Void
Lifeblood Infection
Daughter of 3 Queens

[barren beacon]

what @lethal burrow sent

[rancid dagger]

look up the word shaman in this chat im genuinely tired of writing this 😭

[muted lantern]

theres some retcons i think, but none do any significant harm to the plot and are executed well, that being said calling voidheart a retcon is a stretch imo

[edgy nebula]

fuuuh im too lazy

[sinful nimbus]

You can objectively describe art yes but this has no bearing on its quality

[limpid summit]

Ancestral Shaman asserts his people never looked into the void for power

Now according to the other shamans that’s what they do

[keen compass]

Its an artistic change to coincide with Hornet's poor memory of the scene and her mother

[silver spire]

oh i know perfectly well what this is, but i am talking about the fundamental poundings of a child, not a fleshed out genre with a small but niche fanbasej

[barren beacon]

Why does she gets fatter while sleeping

[teal finch]

okay well the point of one of the daily arguments in this chat is that some people think the retcons are bad and others think theyre good

[quick cairn]

damn Herah was THICC

[edgy nebula]

i see

[sinful nimbus]

What if that's my child and it means a lot to me that they're having fun on the piano

[keen compass]

Its best not to take the appearance of herrah in the memory as a fact as its made clear Hornet's memory of her mother's appearance is foggy and unreliable

[quick cairn]

no wonder PK hit her up

[lethal burrow]

yeah, like I said any objective statement will always be based off of subjective criteria.

And that's not to devalue any evaluation, it's just the way it is.

[sinful nimbus]

What if its my poundings

[limpid summit]

How Void Heart works was not retconned, TK just doesn’t have instantaneous control over void and TC just wanted to make a statement

[silver spire]

good, then i think we agree on that. but quality, while you can say is in the eye of the beholder, can be evaluated

[rancid dagger]

her appearance still differs from all other weavers

[silver spire]

what metric are you going off of?

[keen compass]

yea and so does GMS', wuts your point

[bronze turret]

Account me on the side that considers some retcons as not doing actual harm to the bulk of the plot

[silver spire]

is that a measurable criterion?

[lethal burrow]

no one is dying She was a spider.

[rancid dagger]

gms isn't a weaver?

[sinful nimbus]

How good it is

What "good" means is different from person to person.... That's how subjectivity works

[sinful nimbus]

Quality isn't measurable

[lethal burrow]

Honestly void heart just makes me think we never understood how it worked to begin with

[edgy nebula]

do we think that mottled skarrs are resistant to the haunting or that they just arent haunted yet

[keen compass]

my point is beings can look diff from one another

[limpid summit]

Could be the former honestly

[muted lantern]

i agree

[quick cairn]

btw is Karmelita fighting with sickles ?

[keen compass]

Herrah can just be a fatass weaver

[muted lantern]

curvesicle i think

[rancid dagger]

yeah but weavers all look the same except for herrah? also what does gms have to do in that lmao

[keen compass]

Occam's razor

[limpid summit]

Maybe their mottled-ness made them outcasts so they have more individuality and were less susceptible

[long tapir]

same logic behind lifeblood to me is that one side of the world doesnt understand it hence the naming discrepancy

[bronze turret]

Is it that unimaginable that Herrah might have gained weight between the time Hornet was very little and the day she had to go to sleep forever?

[keen compass]

The simplest answer is the best one

[rancid dagger]

herrah is a fatass weaver yes, which is a retcon, not a bad story decision, but a retcon nonetheless

[silver spire]

agree to disagree i guess, you seem to just want to push the same argument i've heard many times, and it ultimately comes down to your opinion

[keen compass]

Apparently yes

[fringe comet]

thats what i assumed cause we only see like 3 mottled ants and they are all separate from the rest

[muted lantern]

herrah being a weaver might be a retcon but its so reasonable and fairly well exectuted that i don't think its remotely an issue, so long as in the future they give some explanation for her appearance

[keen compass]

its not a retcon as it doesn't change any prior existing lore

[fringe comet]

2 of them arent even hostile

[sinful nimbus]

If it comes down to opinion then... it is subjective?
You realize how you are contradicting yourself yes?

[keen compass]

The lore was added to, but nothing was changed

[rancid dagger]

leg disposition is also different from the rest of the weavers tbf it's not just weight gain

[silver spire]

no i mean your interpretation on if quality can be measured or not

[bronze turret]

I kid you not, stress eating is no joke, I speak from experience! Gained a lot of weight back in college with all the deadlines and projects split into 3/4 different groups!

[teal finch]

personally some of the choices (shamans) made little sense to me while others were fine. and i do think some of the parts were moreso conceptualized with fan service in mind than world cohesion. but in the end i still like the game and picking apart the lore even if it at times isnt narratively satisfying to me

[fringe comet]

yeah its never said that she isnt a weaver so its technically not a retcon, we just all assumed she wasnt cause of the differences

[lethal burrow]

there are more differences than her being "fat"

She's also substantially bigger and does not have the round head and her body is different and limb placement is different and her body colour is different and her eyes are a different size in comparison to her body proportions if she was a weaver and etc.

It's clear to me that the original intent was different.

[sinful nimbus]

If you acknowledge that this changes from person to person then it is objectively subjective

[quick cairn]

heck it's so reasonable I thought she was always a Weaver, until I was proven otherwise that there was no mention about her being a Weaver in HK1

[limber anvil]

look what I just found... [seems like there were originally 5 towns]

[rancid dagger]

herrah was a low caste bug who had no relation to weavers other than being the ruler of deepnest, she was then redesigned on silksong and made a weaver retroactively

it is reasonable sure, but it's a retroactive change

[lethal burrow]

THIS is the variability of Weavers as we are shown, even widow, who is the most different looking of all of them has an explicit reason.

harrah is a Weaver as of silksong, but I don't think she was one when Hollow knight was released

[silk dirge]

to end this argument i will once again say there is one exception to this which is seals bc seals are objectively the best animal and im not hearing anyone say otherwise

[quick cairn]

biggest difference is that Herrah actually has a mask, which we know can change wearer's body

[limpid summit]

A mask doesn’t change body shape

[fringe comet]

until the sea lion fandom starts to throw flippers

[lethal burrow]

Where are you getting that from?

[silk dirge]

how can someone see a seal and say "this isnt the best animal"

[rancid dagger]

what

[limpid summit]

SS Mask Maker is being metaphorical just like HK Mask Maker was

[keen compass]

simplest answer is the best one: she's just fat or an example of a pregnant weaver or a mutant, who knows and who cares. Hell it could be why she was called a 'beast' cuz she looks so odd

[silk dirge]

ok sea lions are cool to

[quick cairn]

no one remembers this dude?

[long tapir]

how could a non weaver birth a weaver

[keen compass]

in your same example the widow doesnt have the same head shape as other Weavers anyways

[long tapir]

i love him :)

[fringe comet]

Nymm, I could never forget you

[silk dirge]

animal terminology is fucking mean to them tho earless seals are considered "true seals" implying sea lions are FALSE seals 😭

[keen compass]

not sayin she is a non weaver

[quick cairn]

in both forms actually goated

[muted lantern]

nym killed my ex wife

[keen compass]

just that she's fat or odd

[rancid dagger]

widow had her mask removed

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah was redesigned to look more like a weaver

[fringe comet]

there are also seals with ears

[lethal burrow]

you misunderstand

I'm not saying a reason Cannot be come up with people have come up with many reasons out of vapour and thin air.

[silver spire]

the difference is if you can back it up or not with objective measures. i'll end it off here, i never stated that art is objective, i said that you can justify your measure of quality with objective measures, but that does not invalidate other areas. its like a claim, evidence, reasoning type. maybe i went a bit far with my example of comparisons, but i think you can see what i'm saying

[limpid summit]

The problem with Herrah being a Weaver is that a large part of her motivation in HK’s prestory was getting a heir to legitimize her rule as a common Deepnest-native spider amidst their caste system
Now she just like wants a child

[silk dirge]

marine biologists did not have to do them like that thats just mean 😭

[long tapir]

oh im not saying that sorry just saying if she WASNT a weaver in hk how could hornet just be weaver

[limber anvil]

well I think I can now say that the coral area had a bridge, village and then the tower...

[bronze turret]

Honestly, I always assume Herrah to be a Weaver with how the word is so often mentioned back in HK, aside from the fact that she's the ruler, and the fact the world of Hollow Knight and Silksong doesn't shy away from portraying its monarchy under classical societal rules, so it felt natural in that context that the Weaver would be the leader.

[keen compass]

why can't both be true and it not be a retcon?...

[rancid dagger]

she cant be pregnant when she already birthed hornet and never had any more offspring plus weavers have a really long time having descendants

[lethal burrow]

yes, that's because her mask was forcibly removed, but for all intensive purposes, she is an average weaver apart from that fact and the pins in her back.

It doesn't matter

[rancid dagger]

yeah i understand the confusion but she is stated to be a common beast, it was her husband who was a high caste bug

[keen compass]

Herrah couldn't change mask too?

[sinful nimbus]

This is agreeable

[fringe comet]

i think her just wanting a child still works as motivation because its established how much weavers struggle to reproduce

[keen compass]

Nothing here was retconned, and her design wasn't changed in silksong lol

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway lets talk about how Silksong is utter garbage through objective measures

[fringe comet]

if she thinks PK can give her a baby then so be it

[vivid kernel]

whats the different between spiders and weavers?

[keen compass]

The red memory shows that Hornet STRUGGLES to remember what her mother looked like

[fringe comet]

somebody lost to savage beastfly a few too many times

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are a type of spider

[silk dirge]

animal instincts dont fail

[keen compass]

they're the same thing

in hollow knight at least

[lethal burrow]

it seems very clear to many many people that she was not originally intended to be a weaver based off of her design and her story.

and indeed, it's fair to say that her design is very odd indeed if the original intent was such

[quick cairn]

weavers were basically cursed with knowledge, other than that just a spider
oh also possibly only female?

[silk dirge]

actually wait i know one

they cut pharloom bay and even if they didnt cut it it probably would not have harbor seals

[keen compass]

I disagree, given we know Hornet's background was already set during HK's development. Daughter of three queens and all that.

[silk dirge]

i cant respect team cherry for this

[rancid dagger]

weavers can imbue soul into their silk

[lethal burrow]

A Weaver's mask is a natural thing and it's painful to remove so it's said.

Sure she could, but at this point we're making up fanfiction to excuse the discrepancy in her design.

Also, the removal of the mask does not account for the horns

[keen compass]

its not really a retcon just an addition to lore

[vivid kernel]

so why first sinner and widow looks so different

[silk dirge]

if you have a bay area in a game it must have harbor seals or else its a 0/10 to me now

[keen compass]

she is called the beast...

[lethal burrow]

Weavers are specific spiders

[fringe comet]

widow had her mask forcibly removed

[silk dirge]

embrace the seal

[edgy nebula]

widow was mutilated and first sinner i dont know

[bronze turret]

Huh, I forgot about this piece. Could it be that she posed as a common bug to outsiders (save for those who'd pick up on her true nature right away) in an attempt to draw away attention, given their history of exodus?

[magic isle]

could anyone explain the lore of a3 ending?

[rancid dagger]

daughter of three queens doesn't mean they are a weaver though

[quick cairn]

first sinner is actually just a weaver with broken mask and widow doesn't have her mask

[silk dirge]

except sealed siblings im not embracing that shit

[rancid dagger]

that'd be the explanation now yes, but that's a retroactive change

[keen compass]

Nothin was retconned, moreso that we need an explanation for Herrah's bg if anything

[limpid summit]

That’s a retcon by definition

[rancid dagger]

little weavers got retconned out of existence too lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet saves Lace so Grand Mother Silk can stop resisting her death, thus ending the haunting/void affliction

The Knight shows up to save her too

[limpid summit]

Additional info that requires extra explanation is a retcon yeah

[fringe comet]

Hornet saves Lace and GMS gives her the last of her silk to escape the void, TK saves her when the everbloom goes out

[slender night]

Does Silksong take place prior to hk or after

[silk dirge]

after

[rancid dagger]

after

[sinful nimbus]

After

[lethal burrow]

Saying it was set is a misrepresentation considering the only post we knew about the three Queens plot line from said they weren't sure if it was still a thing or not, and and for all intensive purposes, it was scrapped until they decided to revisit the concept seven years down the line.

It wasn't "always the plan" it was something they considered at some point and then eventually decided to make a thing

[quick cairn]

after

[limpid summit]

The thousands of little weavers are also odd yes

[vivid kernel]

but first sinners hands like T-rex you know 😭

[fringe comet]

out of existence? theyre just still in hallownest lol

[limpid summit]

“We can’t have kids”

[lethal burrow]

ok so what

[silk dirge]

i mean i would say it was probably always planned for hornet dlc

[keen compass]

retcon: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

[bronze turret]

Indeed. But there's a more accurate word for this, it's Recontextualization. Since HK doesn't offer much in the way of information about many things, new ones can be inserted into the gaps to create a nee perception of the current situation.

[limpid summit]

The idea of a pale being was also retconned

[silk dirge]

i dont see team cherry making a hornet dlc and not planning to put 3q in that

[limpid summit]

That’s another one

[rancid dagger]

yes but

[sinful nimbus]

Previously Herrah was not a weaver

[silk dirge]

this is a new one care to elaborate

[keen compass]

We kno it was always the plan because the hornet dlc was being made during HK1's development

[limpid summit]

Previously Herrah was a common spider

[keen compass]

It then got turned into wut we now as silksong

[sinful nimbus]

A new piece of information was added to make her a weaver which is a retcon

[fringe comet]

i dont believe its stated that little weavers are baby weavers

[rancid dagger]

yes but that new information directly conflicts with previously established stuff, her design in this case

[keen compass]

What says she wasn't?

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't mean its a bad decision but if you want to adequately defend it you need to acknowledge it is indeed a retcon

[vivid kernel]

do you guys know how/why first sinner get that name

[limpid summit]

Pale Beings was a term only used to refer to PK and WL - pale ore had something to do with those two, Vespa says the pale beings are to blame for our nature

Now it’s something entirely new

[keen compass]

We know spiders are weavers and thus herrah is a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

She far more closely resembled the devouts than weavers and was described as a "common beast"

[limpid summit]

First prisoner of the Slab

[silk dirge]

ok nah thats a very loose one

[rancid dagger]

they are called little weavers and have the weaver head shape, they are something different now after silksong established that weavers have a hard time reproducing but back then not really

[lethal burrow]

we KNOW? how so?

[limpid summit]

Spiders aren’t weavers

[quick cairn]

I lowkey thought it was a dress ngl, maybe it's just because she's the first weaver created or at least one of the first ones?

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are a subtype of spiders, devouts are spiders and are not weavers

[edgy barn]

Her design + Herrah was stated to be a common deepnest beast

[fringe comet]

yes, the first sinner was guilty of the sin of apostacy, which is pretty vague but its probably her finding out the true origins of weavers and being branded a heretic

[keen compass]

and regardless she is a spider, making her a weaver

[rancid dagger]

all weavers are spiders not all spiders are weavers

[silk dirge]

we never really had a set definition of a pale being that got replaced

[sinful nimbus]

Not all spiders are weavers

[silk dirge]

adding a new pale being is not really a retcon

[vivid kernel]

what was her sin?

[lethal burrow]

her appearance.

[fringe comet]

yeah theyve been retconned to be something different, saying out of existance is hyperbolic

[limpid summit]

Deeplings Devouts Midwife the old king of Deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are modified pharlids

[rancid dagger]

and this is the person calling me illiterate 😭

[silk dirge]

and also we never really had any idea what the connection to pale ore was

[keen compass]

The lore disagrees with you lol

[fringe comet]

you two need to kiss and make up

[keen compass]

Appearance doesn't define what a weaver is clearly

[limpid summit]

Apostasy - denying the godhood of her sisters

[lethal burrow]

no.

All Weavers are spiders not all spiders are weavers.

[bronze turret]

Eh, I can live with a little visual inconsistency, it doesn't affect the bulk of the plot. Even some bees follow the Law of Cartoon Anatomy to justify how they'd turn their entire bodies into a sting.

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of the first game "Pale Being" was a shorthand way to describe the Pale King and the White Lady, not a descriptor of any type of being.

[rancid dagger]

yeah we are not saying it's a bad retcon, we are just arguing that it IS a retcon

[keen compass]

I'd rather throw myself into a woodchipper still conscious and able to feel every bit of pain before kissing someone like him xD

[limpid summit]

The thing is apart from subtle design cues all Weavers look super similar and then Herrah

[silk dirge]

plus it seems gms might be connected to pale oil somehow? its weird but the existence of pale oil in pharloom definitely means something

[lethal burrow]

yes, cause it was retconed

I'm not saying she's not a Weaver. I'm saying she wasn't one.

I'm not denying the current state of things that's disingenuous

[rancid dagger]

i like herrah being a weaver

[keen compass]

It wasn't retconned though, because nothing originally says she ISN'T a weaver

[silk dirge]

ok thats like very minor tho

[spark valve]

herrah being a weaver is fine

[severe siren]

Herrah being a weaver is a good retcon anyway in my opinion

[sinful nimbus]

It is yeah I don't think anyone really cares

[rancid dagger]

i forgot the fayforn higher being part 😭

[barren beacon]

I still am yet to see anyone discuss the one at the bottom

[keen compass]

A retcon would be revising prior lore and changing it, nothing was changed just added to. Its not a retcon

Retcon: revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

[rain gate]

yeah im probably gonna switch that one out

[severe siren]

Like even though she wasn’t, they did basically nothing with the idea or Deepnest in general

[quick cairn]

a true Skonger doesn't need to see silkpost, knight. He goes by pure animal instinct

[fringe comet]

"Bile gland of a rare sylphean slug. Talented pinmasters can use the glistening liquid within to improve a blade's sharpness." unless we can link GMS to slugs

[sinful nimbus]

The previous interpretation was that Herrah was a regular spider, a new piece of information was added that changed this interpretation

[lethal burrow]

it is extremely understandably reasonably assumed bugs of the same species looks similar.

Or else any bug could be the same as any other bug.

Cloth could be a mantis, sly could be a moth.

[sinful nimbus]

Therefore it is a retcon

[rancid dagger]

herrah being described as a common bug and having a different design than the other weavers is literally that though

[keen compass]

*previous interpretation by FANS
The lore says otherwise

[silk dirge]

i mean eva is related to weavers and binding her gives us "sylphsong" theres definitely something going on there

[edgy nebula]

i assume beastmaster is what the big corpse in the chapel of the beast used to be

[edgy barn]

The ability you get from binding Eva is called Sylphsong and when active it gives Hornet the same halo GMS has

[sinful nimbus]

All interpretations are by fans...

[bronze turret]

Ooooor is that how a cartoon bug looks like when they bloat? Worth considering!

[rancid dagger]

the lore about herrah was taht she was a common bug

[fringe comet]

yes i agree the use of sylph is intriguing

[silk dirge]

i dont think team cherry would just make an item with pale in its name without a connection to a pale being then again palestag exists

[rancid dagger]

she still has a different leg distribution tbf

[keen compass]

FUCK the palestag boss fight

[fringe comet]

sylph is defined as air spirit, its an obscure enough word that the usage in both places needs looking into

[dire sinew]

is silksong anti capitalist media

[keen compass]

The worst fight in the game PERIOD

[limpid summit]

I don’t like Herrah being a weaver. I think her story worked best as a local one and left room for interpretation about Deepnest’s pre-infection society, and the game could have worked just as well if not better with the Weavers simply training Hornet and goading Herrah to groom her into this messiah role (I say better because thematically Herrah’s dialogue would be more impactful were the Weavers an outside source)
Now she’s just another drop in the mountains of Weaver lore we get in SS without any actual Deepnest lore even though Hornet literally grew up there
The weavers didn’t even make her needle

[rancid dagger]

it isn't really subtle about it yes

[fringe comet]

its also a type of hummingbird apparently

[lethal burrow]

An NPC does not pause the game and say "hello I'm John Cherry and she is not a weaver. This is definitive confirmation."

But there are lots of things that suggest and imply that she was not originally one.

Not only was there nothing to indicate it, but there were several things that indicated otherwise.

You seem to think a retcon is going against previously confirmed information, that is not what one is

[limber anvil]

skurry will be mad...

[sinful nimbus]

TC ditching literally everything in Deepnest is very funny

[bronze turret]

Ik Ik I was mostly joking, because Law of Cartoon Anatomy isn't too attached to portraying anatomy consistency in parts.

[limber anvil]

EGG is GONE!!!!!!!!!

[limpid summit]

Not my goat Nosk though!!! Skynx fans unite

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[rancid dagger]

herrah being a weaver arguably gives more of an impact to her lines considering that the game's central theme is motherhood and herrah is the one to break away from the weaver's purpose for hornet just to give her daughter the freedom to choose for herself

[quick cairn]

I thought Weavers actually don't fight ? and if so they use their threads infused with soul no ? So it makes sense that they did not make her weapon

[sinful nimbus]

What do you think about the theory that Skynx needs silk from your silk eaters because its a Nosk that can't naturally string up its prey

[keen compass]

That is what a retcon is. A retcon is a revision of prior events to change what they mean and add new info. Herrah wasn't revised, but she had her lore added to. Thus its not a retcon

[fringe comet]

well.... we do know of at least one weapon the weavers made

[keen compass]

Ah yes, the railgun-

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner uses needles

[limpid summit]

It’s a needle it was implied in HK that they made her weapon because that’s what they were tied to, silk and song
The Hive making the needle is a genuine retcon

[foggy fractal]

hey guys, John Cherry here. Herrah is...

[lethal burrow]

I don't know why you keep smugly bringing it up as if it's a smoking gun.

nobody here is denying that in the current version of the story she is a weaver, that has nothing to do with what anyone is saying.
just feels like you're mentioning it to be right about something.

[vivid kernel]

is that true when beginning of the game hornet was in cage there was a white butterfly broking cage's spell.is that butterfly controlled by lace?

[quick cairn]

still using silk infused with soul but I get the point

[limber anvil]

old sinners road.... from dustpen... it had trees.

[sinful nimbus]

Seems so

[keen compass]

We are arguing if its a retcon, it is by definition NOT a retcon lol

[rancid dagger]

previous implied (and pretty much directly stated) interpretation: Herrah was a common bug who became the leader of deepnest by being a high caste spider's mate
new interpretation: herrah is a weaver, not a common bug
it is by definition a retcon

[edgy barn]

Herrah being a weaver contradicts her previously confirmed status as a common deepnest beast, as the Weavers in that game were already presented as special and distinct from the other deepnest creatures.

[keen compass]

implication isn't statement nor confirmation

[lethal burrow]

You are incorrect

[keen compass]

The definition of retcon says otherwise :P

[rancid dagger]

herrah being a common bug is stated directly in the game

[lethal burrow]

I don't know where you're getting this specific definition from, but I would like to know very much because I imagine you would be very very very very very very, very very funny

[keen compass]

It really doesn't, as being from deepnest she'd still be of lower status than others

[sinful nimbus]

Implications are just natural logical conclusions from established pieces of the lore

[bronze turret]

Fr, the way TC handled its central themes and developed them was one of my favorite parts, especially the narrative parallels and foils.

[lethal burrow]

Oxford? Miriam Webster? Google? Wikipedia? A 100-year-old book your grandmother saved?

[limpid summit]

You can be disingenuous and say the Shrumals were simply insulting Herrah but they acknowledge the intricacies of the Deepnest caste system that is a retcon

[rancid dagger]

the king of deepnest is still stated to be of high status

[limpid summit]

She was implied to be a regular spider with no status

[edgy barn]

Midwife also calls Herrah a beast as does Hornet

[keen compass]

Oxford, since you want to be oh so pretentious lol

Want more definitions?

[lethal burrow]

wanting to know sources is pretentious now

[rancid dagger]

agreed the main motherhood theme is very well done and i enjoyed it a lot

[edgy barn]

The game really hammers down that she was the beast

[sinful nimbus]

The oxford definition lines up with Herrah being a retcon

[limpid summit]

Herrah the Weaver 🗣️🗣️

[limber anvil]

more gatherable bells which were cut..

[fringe comet]

good lord we are citing oxford now?

[keen compass]

'the act, practice, or result of changing an existing fictional narrative by introducing new information in a later work that recontextualizes previously established events, characters, etc.'

Nothin prior was changed, but added to

[quick cairn]

real because if it was stated that Herah was just some random spider then in SIlksong suddenly making her a Weaver would be a retcon.
Otherwise it's just new information being presented to us / confirmation

[keen compass]

Thus its not a retcon

[silk dirge]

ok wait im kinda curious if that white butterfly mightve been some important person who got whitewarded

[sinful nimbus]

The new information introduced was that Herrah was a weaver, it was in a later work and it recontextualized Hollow Knight

[rancid dagger]

new information: herrah is a weaver
previously established character: herrah is a common beast
recontextualization: herrah is a weaver who presented herself to outsiders as a common beast

[keen compass]

its at worst a poorly handled lore addition

[muted lantern]

I don't think it being a retcon inherently means bad writing, it very smoothly translates and the prior text still makes sense with the new direction.

[proud swan]

ay whatsup erbody

[fringe comet]

uhhh, new information that recontextualized, by your definition that is a retcon

[muted lantern]

retcon debate again...

[keen compass]

No previously established info contradicts or states she isn't a weaver

[lethal burrow]

It was changed by introducing new knowledge in a later work

[limber anvil]

found some files for the cut area the gloom

[rancid dagger]

it's directly stated she is a common bug

which is why she's called herrah the beast

[sinful nimbus]

The definition you gave doesn't give that as a prerequisite

[rancid dagger]

and not herrah the weaver

[fringe comet]

retcons dont need to contradict, like your oxford said, it recontextualizes though

[keen compass]

A weaver can't be a common bug by status in a foreign kingdom?

[lethal burrow]

you are under the grievance and unfortunate misunderstanding that a retcon can only apply to a thing that was previously confirmed extremely definitively

[proud swan]

this cant be possible 😭😭

[limber anvil]

think bilewater replaced the gloom which was a mercury lake...

[keen compass]

They need to change prior info, and nuthin was explicitly changed but added to

[rancid dagger]

not when weavers were already distinguished from common bugs in hollow knight

[fringe comet]

chiliiiii

[jaunty elm]

is there a reason she doesnt have dialouge for the needlion

[limpid summit]

Powerful being that doesn’t let her thoughts be read

[fading mountain]

It was too funny not to share, and art gallery looks deaddd

[edgy barn]

The weavers in HK had their own fancy-looking dens, background statues, midwife talks about how much of deepnest history was influenced by then. There are even enviromental hints that they were involved with the Pale King's Vessel plan. You can't reasonably argue they were conaidered common beasts

[silk dirge]

sussy

[fringe comet]

your definition doesnt say "change info" it says "new info"

[keen compass]

cuz she is parasitical (potentially higher being)

[fading mountain]

Not a bug

[limpid summit]

Similar to WL and other creatures reading the Dream Nail albeit lamer
DN for life

[quick cairn]

probably some type of higher being ? also Greyroot ain't a bug so that might play a role

[limpid summit]

Skynx also has no Needolin dialogue (masking its thoughts)

[keen compass]

I'm not sayin that, I am sayin there is nothin sayin Herrah can't be a weaver and a common bug

[limpid summit]

(Like Nosk)

[lethal burrow]

you just keep your eyes peeled and targeted on that "changed" part and Cleve close to that special little interpretation you hold deer that allows it not to be one through mental gymnastics, we will handle the hard part of interpreting and acknowledging every other part of the definition.

[keen compass]

The weavers clearly bad their own hiearchy to a degree at one point

[muted lantern]

she probably doesnt have silk in her to play off of

[bronze turret]

When Herrah's segment in Red Memory started and she began speaking about what she wanted for Hornet, I instantly realized Hornet's "daughterhood" was a foil to GMS and Lace's mother/daughter relationship; All the mothers Hornet had looked out for what she wanted as well, but Lace is forced to live up to the controlling standards GMS has put her under due to her twisted perception of a "perfect daughter": obedient and complacent to her expectations and whims.

[quick cairn]

wait don't we actually use our silk to do that ?

[proud swan]

wait what is this?

[vivid kernel]

Who should be is it any clue in the game?

[edgy barn]

How can Herrah be part of the race of influential silk mages and be a common beast (and the game really harmers down that she was a beast) at the same time?

[limpid summit]

The weavers didn’t have a caste system amongst themselves as far as we know
They were all equally divine

[fading mountain]

Also she instigates the cursed child ending, being able to consume a whole ass higher being means that she is definitely something formidable

[keen compass]

I keep my eyes targeted on that because that's what a retcon is. It's something that retroactively changes the lore of something, by your version of retcon, the entirety of silksong is a retcon because it adds to the lore of Hornet and Hallownest

[muted lantern]

yeah but it doesnt work on creatures without silk inside them, like the bugs on the surface, so we use our silk to control the silk within other bugs

[silk dirge]

im just saying it would be cool

[quick cairn]

makes sense

[rancid dagger]

based on what exactly?

[keen compass]

Ask Herrah, that is what the lore is telling you

[rancid dagger]

the retconned lore yes

[limber anvil]

datamined files... based on the name for the cut area called gloom... there 3 cut areas known

[vivid kernel]

I thinks its lace's pure silk pets

[sinful nimbus]

You can make the "that is what the lore is telling you" argument for all retcons

[keen compass]

Based on them having a whole kingdom of worshippers where at one point one of then could be locked away for being a sinner

[limpid summit]

A lore addition shouldn’t force the fans to justify why that addition makes sense in the face of previous content, that makes it a retcon regardless of its canonicity!

[sinful nimbus]

Are we arguing Herrah was a criminal

[keen compass]

It doesn't need justification though, it just is at the moment

[quick cairn]

maybe a self deprecation type humour ? but that's assuming she knows from where Weavers come from

[sinful nimbus]

What is isn't what was

[limpid summit]

If you have to run circles around Herrah being a Weaver and a common beast at the same time then her being a Weaver is a retcon
Albeit undeniably true

She’s a Weaver because we are told so

[rancid dagger]

how does locking one of them away and making a religion mean that they had a hierarchy within the weavers

[limber anvil]

cut tool maybe...

[keen compass]

I don't think you need to run circles at all lol

It adds up just fine to me

[limber anvil]

https://mega.nz/folder/nu5GjLxD#JB92f7G2YKa1ms9i6erftw/folder/KiZxwZzI

[sinful nimbus]

Virus

[fringe comet]

look, good or bad, lazy or smart, narratively cohesive or not, it is on an objective level a retcon, even by the oxford definition

[vivid kernel]

Do you guys know why snails looks like they made of void

[keen compass]

Because its clear they don't view all weavers one in the same? And can't look down on others in their own ranks

[sinful nimbus]

They be black

[quick cairn]

I honestly think it's not a big deal that Herrah turned out to be a Weaver, just makes sense she would be one idk

[fringe comet]

goo

[bronze turret]

Oh, that chest is in Hornet's Red Memory during Vespa's segment

[foggy fractal]

trojan horse

[lethal burrow]

your folly becomes you.

assert what you wish but know it does no work for convincing nor changing the world nor tongues nor act nor decisions made by any other in this place or studios far across the globe or what has happened and was and will be and has been done and know that none of what you do will change that in all the minds here or there or over any other way or place that you can think and beyond that.

But all of that is the price you're willing to pay to be right as your own mind betrays you not to let in the truth.

and If now you have no new words left to speak than best not to continue on like a record that refuses to spin.

[quick cairn]

they are just black what can we say

[limber anvil]

I see,

[quick cairn]

Hornet is also black does that make her void ?

[rancid dagger]

"herrah is a weaver, she just has a different body shape, a different mask, different leg distribution and is the only weaver who presents herself as a common bug" is pretty much running circles

[limber anvil]

thanks for the clarification... now we know that is a tent... actully useful lore wise... we know where she slept XD

[bronze turret]

https://tenor.com/view/gunshot-shooting-firing-gun-fire-guns-gif-5640798

[foggy fractal]

like a lot of bugs have black limbs, are those void

[bronze turret]

INFILTRATOR

[limber anvil]

also vespa is a cut boss so you probably entered it to reach a bench

[keen compass]

Lol You inability to accept basic common sense regarding literacy competence is your own failing and trapping, not mine sweetheart

[vivid kernel]

But she have a posture or stmhn like that

[muted lantern]

zote is void

[rancid dagger]

the viewed one of them differently because she went against their supposed mother, that doesn't mean there was a caste system

[fading mountain]

Herrah aint a weaver, just that weaver are spider like, and Herrah is a spider

[muted lantern]

william pellen told me before executing me

[limpid summit]

Team Cherry thought the story would flow better if Hornet was a Weaver, so they made Herrah a Weaver
This is true
They also convoluted established content in doing so

[rancid dagger]

herrah is a weaver

[limpid summit]

It’s all about the story they wanted to tell

[lethal burrow]

projection is it? Your mind has devised clever method to keep the truth Well shut beyond your reach.

[fringe comet]

unfortunetly chilli, you have stumbled into the very crux of the argument, ss retconned it so herrah is a weaver now

[bronze turret]

And gods damnit, they told a really good one!

[muted lantern]

this chat is getting so toxic

[fading mountain]

IS she? I don't remember much from deepnest since that was my least favourite area

[quick cairn]

alright if Herrah ain't a Weaver how do you explain Hornet being one

[muted lantern]

yall need to chill tf out

[fading mountain]

eFair

[rancid dagger]

she wasn't in hollow knight, she is now in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry thinking would be a first

[keen compass]

Don't put your own failings onto me just because you can't fathom your inability to understand basic things

[vivid kernel]

But snails was pure black and they know how to use void or spells 😭

[rancid dagger]

my offer of teaching you how to read that book is still up btw

[limpid summit]

Guys yeah step off if you start getting into ad hominem

It’s never that important

[quick cairn]

with whomst, she's basically an affair kid already

[muted lantern]

they've been there a while

everyone involved atp

[limpid summit]

Idk man I’m just here to talk

[limber anvil]

is this from hollowknight crystal caverns or deepdocks lower section? or cut

[quick cairn]

AND WHITE LADY PROBABLY WATCHED

[fading mountain]

I meant to type fair, not Afair

[limpid summit]

Pretty sure that’s from HK

[keen compass]

I don't need to learn to read from a fool with the inability to comprehend basic sense and learn the simplest of phrases lol

[muted lantern]

would hornet fit the definition of a bastard child?

even tho white lady was fine with it

[keen compass]

Yes!

[sinful nimbus]

Is that the crossroads elevator thing

[lethal burrow]

Such a thing that you speak here now could instead be spoken to you with 10 times the count of words and voices to say it, only that time it would not be as you think it.

[sinful nimbus]

Insult matches aren't lore

[quick cairn]

but like actually, White Lady gives off that type of freak

[lethal burrow]

that's true I got wrapped up shit

[muted lantern]

are you aurafarming in #sk-lore

[keen compass]

I mean, that's all that clowns like that have lol

[sinful nimbus]

😐

[bronze turret]

I would say no, because the circumstances of her birth are very specific.

[winter iris]

Is the Hollow Knight world having some sort of extinction event?
This grimm troupe member talks as if they visited many kingdoms already.
Are civilizations falling en masse?

[rancid dagger]

technically yeah since the definition of bastard is a child born to unmarried parents, but the main use of the word is given to unrecognized children im pretty sure, which hornet isn't

[lethal burrow]

you literally are doing it right this moment tho

[muted lantern]

you have also been throwing them around a lot, maybe everyone chill out or go to dms

and fight there

[keen compass]

glances at the surface and pharloom
Probably

[sinful nimbus]

Civilizations rising and falling constantly is just kinda central to HK's theme of change, it doesn't require that the entire world is ending or whatever

[keen compass]

I only give what I'm given, tyvm

[lethal burrow]

A very base level of me speaks with mediaeval fantasy language and phrasing.

When I start using that, that's when you know, I've been drawn down to much deeper level of myself haha

[fading mountain]

THIS IS SO CURSED LMAFAO

[vivid kernel]

I heard they were visiting falling kingdoms

[bronze turret]

Chilli, please, this is not the channel.

[lethal burrow]

i'm certain we could go to the very top and fine with that you were the one who started this foul tongue.

But I do not think you would accept that

[limber anvil]

found a dead barnicle

[fading mountain]

Sorry

[limpid summit]

They killed Lomm dude

[fading mountain]

I will stop

[muted lantern]

lomm found dead in miami

[quick cairn]

Honestly instead of figuring out whether Herah being a Weaver is a retcon we should figure out if she's 100% blooded Weaver

[keen compass]

You're free to prove yourself wrong

[muted lantern]

she has to be, hornets called a weaver in half part

[limpid summit]

Okay okay okay

[keen compass]

It's your time wasted not mine

[muted lantern]

this fight is so corny

[golden olive]

she has to be since hornet is 50% weaver, and nobody's ready for the weaver pale king theory yet

[limpid summit]

Let’s abandon Herrah Weaver retcon discussions

[winter iris]

Still, even if the world is not ending...
There appears to be some age of collapse.

[lethal burrow]

cowardice? Fine.

But if I find you were the one who gave the first insult, you must do me the pleasure of admitting you're wrong when it is seen bare for all

[limpid summit]

There are other undeniable retcons that might not invoke such venom

[edgy barn]

She is, Hornet is half weaver and PK is 0% Weaver so Herrah has to be 100℅

[winter iris]

Vi Bug Fables detected.

[proud swan]

Hornet tent?But it would be some kind of shield. But it does look like a chest

[quick cairn]

It would make so much sense if she would be 100% weaver

[fringe comet]

yall both need to get some fresh air

[keen compass]

Its just wut this fanbase is like most the time lol

[sinful nimbus]

Like Hornet being racist

[golden olive]

https://tenor.com/view/paper-mario-bug-fables-anti-bug-fables-no-gif-3982560284585911886

[keen compass]

Ok now this is valid tho-

The flies are gross, violent, and gross

[sinful nimbus]

Vro what

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/darkest-dungeon-affliction-irrational-gif-11838038135160624284

[foggy fractal]

People mess with void all the time
Sula, Jiji, Pale King
the spells in hk can be upgraded to void version because of the knight

[rancid dagger]

they are slaves 😭

[keen compass]

I agree with Hornet, they're annoyin to fight

[lethal burrow]

oh, this is a well turn

[sinful nimbus]

Everything in SS is annoying to fight its a bad game

[golden olive]

let's be so real, there's no indication that the pale king isn't at least .0001% weaver

[keen compass]

and now that's bait

[muted lantern]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1222614800920740000/1421734055006961745/7499SkyWhalePuterCrush.gif

[sinful nimbus]

"Racism is based" isn't bait but "Silksong is mid" is okay

[keen compass]

Racism isn't based

But hating the flies is

[lethal burrow]

The only thing they care about in life is being right, and they will deny reality itself to see that as their personal truth

[keen compass]

Same with elves

[sinful nimbus]

That's racism 💔

[quick cairn]

Alright imagine a scenario, a group of ugly bastards kidnapped you, and stripped you out of your clothes, you know every other ugly bastard is the same and you wouldn't be "racist" towards them ?

[rancid dagger]

"racism isnt based but racism is"

[silk dirge]

lets uhh not do this again

[lethal burrow]

no, you don't understand it's different

[proud swan]

again

[sinful nimbus]

They are slaves, Hornet knows that, heck you don't even need to get kidnapped to get those entries

[rancid dagger]

just like retcons and retcons

[keen compass]

Oh hey look, its twitter lol

[lethal burrow]

Except the journal entries are the same, even if you go into the slab without being kidnapped

[muted lantern]

this chat is devolving fast, im headin out lol

[limpid summit]

TC broke ground by going from a silent protagonist to a detached, racist one

[bronze turret]

I doesn't matter if they still behave like condescending, mocking bastards.

[keen compass]

Hornet isn't detached tho

[quick cairn]

I mean fair point, it's funny that's she's just professional hater towards those flies in particular

[sinful nimbus]

Yes so eugenics is justified

[lethal burrow]

wise ones know when to pull out

[keen compass]

Who loot and steal and kill from those they knab....

[bronze turret]

Don't strawman this

[muted lantern]

wish my dad was wiser...

[sinful nimbus]

What are you claiming if not that

[rancid dagger]

"this slave guy attacks me and plays with my stuff so their entire race should disappear"

[limpid summit]

When she sees Zylotol messing with Lifeblood she just goes “I’ve seen this before” and lets him kill himself and ruin Wormways

[silk dirge]

wormways gets ruined either way

[sinful nimbus]

Do you or do you not agree that Hornet's eugenicist rhetoric is bad

[silk dirge]

you dont need to do the quest

[bronze turret]

I'm claiming this is a manufactured story made by 3 guys in which the flies are not to be seen as good creatures, not real life.

[limpid summit]

Yes but if you do she doesn’t do anything

[keen compass]

He had already done wut he did, what was Hornet going to do?

[sinful nimbus]

Because like no sane person is going to disagree

[proud swan]

Brother remember what you told me and the o ther guy earlier

[lethal burrow]

It was a prank

[lethal burrow]

I actually don't. I have a terrible memory.

[golden olive]

if hornet's a professional hater of an entire race for a minor inconvenience, just imagine what her mother figures and TPK was like 🤫 racism is taught

[rancid dagger]

doesn't she recognize the lifeblood infection AFTER the wormways are ruined

[sinful nimbus]

Oh so Hornet isn't racist, Team Cherry is

[limpid summit]

“I can’t see another kingdom fall”
Brings essentially the exact thing that destroyed your kingdom

[rain gate]

updated image

[keen compass]

Hornet canonically goes out of her way to save people in Silksong and shows she cares very often

[proud swan]

I also don't but it was something along the lines of "stop that you bitches" or sumthin

[bronze turret]

Ah, ok, you're just joking. Sorry, I didn't realize earlier.

[limpid summit]

She’s a good person

[winter iris]

Please, take into context the fact these flies in particular, kidnapped Hornet, stripped her naked, and started mocking her playing with her stuff.
Of course hornet will despise them.
This does not mean Hornet will hate all flies, or that her grudge will last forever. But in that moment she had a reason to be angry.

[sinful nimbus]

"Guys they just decided to add a group of slaves that are all inherently evil so its fine actually"

[foggy fractal]

nah should've created another step in the loop

[keen compass]

Wdym

[limpid summit]

She’s also racist

[sinful nimbus]

Harry Potter type argument

[fringe comet]

she also finds them physically repulsive, not just because they locked her up and jacked her shit

[rancid dagger]

except for the flies who she says shouldn't reproduce, so it's racism

[quick cairn]

She had an influence of 3 queens and a king, surely one of them had to hate those flies

[lethal burrow]

naw naw the four of them need to be

• harrah not looking like a Weaver.
• slab fly racism
• green prince incest interpretation
• hollow knight purity discussion

any other big discussions that never end? Not as big as these four.

[bronze turret]

Wait, you guys are being serious...?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not

[rancid dagger]

she says there was a lifeblood infection in deepnest, we dont know to what degree

[winter iris]

Nah

[silk dirge]

can we talk about the flies hornet should actually hate which are the red coral flies that team cherry loves to the point theres like 6 variants of them(they are not sapient so its fine)

[golden olive]

wtf is the purity discussion

[lethal burrow]

At least one person is being serious, but I don't know who it is

[limpid summit]

Green prince discussion was just one dude saying dumb shit

[keen compass]

Nvm, BlueSky user spotted lol

[winter iris]

Im just hanging around.

[rancid dagger]

wait what are the last 2😭

[sinful nimbus]

Adding a group of slaves that are portrayed as gross and evil is like actually messed up

[bronze turret]

Ok I loved that answer!

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

[winter iris]

I was just asking if HK world is in some sort of worldwide collapse.

[rancid dagger]

i dont have a bluesky but go on 😭

[limpid summit]

“Another Hallownest classic” says Hornet as she exterminates another defenseless scabfly

[fair tusk]

why does conductor and unravled look the exact same?

[proud swan]

Just so you know I was kidding 😭 but you did ask us to put down our weapons. And i've seen you being levelheaded several times so I trust you are able to

[limpid summit]

“You might grow up to be a Wardenfly”

[silk dirge]

like fr what the fuck is this
-driznit
-driznarga
-conchfly
-pokenabbin
-great conchflies
-raging conchfly

like why was 6 variants of these fuckers needed

[fringe comet]

unraveled is an amalgamation of silk and bug parts, uses a conductor helmet

[keen compass]

I think they're fiiine

[silk dirge]

it depends

[edgy nebula]

youve missed one influential fly

[spark valve]

the being gross part is pretty fine but moralizing it and hornet's like explicit cruel apathy towards their situation are Sure Choices™

[golden olive]

technically tho hornet only hates the flies if she takes to nuu and gets the journal, so really, the journal is probably making her evil

[quick cairn]

Hornet is making her best impression of Reverse Flash towards them, although she's not so hateful towards Groal but I also heard he's supposed to be a cicada

[silk dirge]

driznits are drill bitches

driznargas are a little bit less annoying

[keen compass]

Groal is inflicted by the haunting

[proud swan]

I HATE these diagonals mfs

[limpid summit]

Especially when she herself is repeatedly profiled throughout Pharloom lol

[lethal burrow]

some people think that the green princesses were brothers

And the purity discussion... that is a tale of the elder days...

"was the hollow Knight ever pure? what does it mean to be pure? What constitutes purity?"

[fair tusk]

also why does the 12th architect and architects melody robot look alike? do all architects look the same? are they related somehow?

[rancid dagger]

what even is the reason we go into the slab to kill the broodmother i forgor

[limpid summit]

What a lame ass

[sinful nimbus]

"Silksong enemy variety is so good!"
Silksong enemy variety:

[silk dirge]

conchflys are fine and pokenabbins literally do nothing lol

[sinful nimbus]

(Not actually)

[limpid summit]

To pull out her eye for a quest

[spark valve]

because somebody asked her to

[bronze turret]

Unraveled is just a mass of souls that possessed what is most likely a conductor garb that got discarded, there's not really any deep implications to it.

[rancid dagger]

dam

[silk dirge]

i mean tbf they do a lot of different shit

they dont really behave similar

[keen compass]

the broodmother is so fuckin gross

[silk dirge]

they just all look similar

[keen compass]

that fight was just gross

[rancid dagger]

yeah i know the quest but why did whoever wished that want bm dead, the other bosses had a reason afaik

[edgy nebula]

i hated the broodmother fight

[keen compass]

The imagery I did not need in that fight

[limpid summit]

I know right I’m glad she’s rotting in the ground

[bronze turret]

They're like Pokemon. Which basically takes after evolutionary principles.

[fair tusk]

id say is lace a child but that belongs to #sk-discussion

[rancid dagger]

okay it's because they made awful sounds good to know

[silk dirge]

team cherry after deciding which primal aspid variation they will add today

[quick cairn]

A very old child, yes

[lethal burrow]

my favourite evolution line

[fringe comet]

well yeah they are all architects

[keen compass]

ALL OF THEM

[golden olive]

that actually belongs here because it might be the biggest point of contention i've ever seen from this game

[silk dirge]

WAWAWAWA

[bronze turret]

Wawawawa!

[edgy nebula]

pokemon! gotta catch em all

[quick cairn]

Holy shit I've never made a connection

[limpid summit]

Hornet drops EPIC rvne nvke on beta flies

[keen compass]

I massacred the women... and the children too... for that 100%

[edgy nebula]

bug into bug/steel into steel/fire

[keen compass]

GOTTA KILL EM ALL! POKEMON!

[fringe comet]

hunters journal says it, i think its a really cool detai- wawawawa

[bronze turret]

I'll just roll with what Hornet wrote in the Hunter's Journal, really!

[winter iris]

Does Pharloom do genetic engineering?
These bugs grow up wishing to be judges by default.

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/gomer-rain-world-gourmand-rain-world-gourmand-rain-world-gomer-wave-gif-14657318169420155731

[limpid summit]

Idk why you’re expecting sweet music from a literal prison

[silk dirge]

the worst primal aspid variation in silksong is the deep docks nuke dudes

[rancid dagger]

for real

[edgy barn]

Huh, this is actually true. Very ironic.

[foggy fractal]

homer ?!

[silk dirge]

i hate the ducts squits also but the deep docks nuke throwers are insane

[keen compass]

Look. If you didn't kill the baby judges for the hundo percento, skill issue

[keen compass]

I'd fuckin do it again too, that 99% waa bugging me

[silk dirge]

lmao im stealing this

[quick cairn]

I think I've never read that journal entr- wawawawawawa

[bronze turret]

Hollow Knight and Silksong play with some themes on bug species having some inclinations albeit loosely, it seems to be part of the bug world-building

[keen compass]

LMFAO HOW DID KARMLEITA GET ON HERE

[fair tusk]

oh gow the wawas are infecting

wawawawa

[foggy fractal]

her air attacks where she throws the claws trust

[keen compass]

Trobbio is also a primal aspid variant

[edgy nebula]

what do you me- wawawawawa

[rancid dagger]

lmfao

[keen compass]

He throws balls mid air

[quick cairn]

If you think about it, final Lace is also a primal aspid variant

[keen compass]

TRUE

[fair tusk]

everyone is a primal aspid!!!

[keen compass]

Is... Life just a primal aspid variant?

[edgy barn]

Actually yes. Several bugs like scrollreaders or all the slab flies are rised from birth for their specific roles

[winter iris]

Primal aspid is an spectrum.

Pharloom selective breeding.

[fringe comet]

grandmother silk is primal aspid

[keen compass]

The world is primal aspid

[bronze turret]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-primal-aspid-machine-gun-minigun-i-hate-it-gif-17572793

[winter iris]

I am primal aspid.

[keen compass]

We are primal aspid.

[proud swan]

SpitSquit is undoubtly the WORST enemy on SS

[silk dirge]

real

[fringe comet]

slippery bastards

[fair tusk]

primal and aspid purist

[keen compass]

Nah the worst enemy is any fucker that can parry

[fair tusk]

according to chart

[rancid dagger]

you barely have to fight them thankfully

[fringe comet]

you think lace is the worst enemy?

[fair tusk]

THE COGWORK GUYS

[keen compass]

YES

STOP PARRYING ME, LET ME JUST WHACKA WHACKA

Mf makin me PACE my damage

[winter iris]

Parry their parrying

[fringe comet]

whacka whacka? you mea-wawawawawawawa

[silver spire]

no one tell her about karmelita

[keen compass]

WAWAWAWAWA

[winter iris]

You get parried? parry their parrying or punish their parry.

[keen compass]

oh with karmelita i tried my railgun spam build, so i never experienced it

[edgy barn]

Karmelita has a parry?

[rancid dagger]

she blocks attacks in general

[bronze turret]

Gods, you tell me about it

[winter iris]

A block

[keen compass]

I just gunned that bitch down in cold blood

[rancid dagger]

she is also the best fight across both games

[silver spire]

she blocks 80% attacks

[fringe comet]

her and NKG

[keen compass]

Block this fuckin RAILGUN

[quick cairn]

Honestly Giant Beastly still harder

[silver spire]

hard disagree, pure vessel is a league above her

[rancid dagger]

karmelita >>> pv > nkg imo

[bronze turret]

30-second Engineer crest?

[winter iris]

Karmelita does not precisely return your attack with another after a parry, but she can block your hits.

[edgy barn]

Nah PV rules

[fringe comet]

thats fair i adore all three of those fights

[quick cairn]

Karmelita so hard I always just Architect cheese her ass, why is she blocking almost all of my attacks like WHAT

[silver spire]

good god, brainless architect gameplay

[keen compass]

engineer crest with the railgun, rings, and rosary cannon

I just went BRRRRRRT

[rancid dagger]

i'll probably enjoy karmelita even more once we get the godhome equivalent and i can actually practice her properly

[fringe comet]

yesss give me ascended karmalita

[bronze turret]

Mine was cogflies, sawblades (living up to dad!) and tacks + poison

[rancid dagger]

platformless radiant savage beastfly

[quick cairn]

Karmelita wouldn't even be that hard without that Skarr army prefight

[keen compass]

My fave boss fight across both games is the first sinner

The First Sinner was so electric and fun

[rancid dagger]

the prefight was over in like 4 seconds though it's like 3 waves of enemies
if anything you farm soul out of them

[keen compass]

It felt like a HK1 godhome fight

and I loved it

[winter iris]

Everybody gansta until Hornet pulls out a GUN.

[keen compass]

First Sinner, GMS, and Fourth Chorus were my fave fights

I really want a fourth chorus but harder

[quick cairn]

First playthrough I got the timings of those Skarr down to the frame, but then Karmelita decided to clown on my ass with dancing

[keen compass]

I love the fact Hornet gets two straight fuckin GUNS

[fringe comet]

i do like fourth chorus and GMS a lot but they both have the problem of going down too easy

[rancid dagger]

i really loved the way gms fight paralleled radiance but it still had a lower difficulty level akin to THK since neither are the true final boss

[rancid dagger]

4

[keen compass]

Don't worry, ascended GMS got us

[fringe comet]

i just finished my cursed ending playthrough today and i was surprised how brainless the GMS fight was

[keen compass]

wuts the other 2?

[bronze turret]

Goodness, yes! Also, I don't know if it was just me, but I felt like First Sinner's fight subtly tries to teach you to use the clawline as an attack, even if it's an optional fight. After that, I started using clawline much more precise and effectively!

[winter iris]

The problem is, you can only get 1 out of 3 versions.
So 2.

[lucid fossil]

What

[rancid dagger]

3 silkshot variants and rosary gun

[keen compass]

Its the silkshot and rosary cannon

[lucid fossil]

boy you can’t get all of them at once

[keen compass]

you can only get 1 variant, so its 2

[lucid fossil]

this guy!

[rancid dagger]

4 different guns still

[winter iris]

The silkshot has 3 versions, making 4 possible guns.
But hornet can only get 1 variant, so 2 guns.

[edgy nebula]

hornet also gets shaman crest, i consider that a gun

[fringe comet]

oh god is this the new debate? if silkshot counts as 1 or 3 guns?

[lucid fossil]

passive ragebait

[rancid dagger]

that's a fucking cannon the way it hits

[keen compass]

I love first sinner so much and I hate that if i wanna repeat it i gotta replay all of act 2 basically lol

[bronze turret]

And guess who only found out that after picking the Engineer variant??? That's right, me!

[quick cairn]

Can we consider wyrms to be equivalent to dragons ?

[lucid fossil]

first sinner was lowkey annoying why do people keep saying it was their fav boss 😭

[fringe comet]

nah just rush groal the great in act 1 and then get nabbed to the slab , im sure it wont be miserable

[winter iris]

I got the weaver variant (LASER)

[rancid dagger]

i got the mount fay one accidentally because i was too poor to buy from either vendor lmaoo

[lucid fossil]

a bit too far fetched sir red gaze

they’re different I guess they’re both big or something

[rancid dagger]

wyrms are worms

[keen compass]

I did the weaver variant so i got the straight up cross screen railgun

[quick cairn]

Is it tho ? A Wyrm is a type of dragon

[proud swan]

Tbh you guys ever used these guns? I hated them 😭

[fringe comet]

not to be confused with worms

[winter iris]

It fits Silksong's frenetic movement mechanics.
It's also fairly challenging without being too easy or too hard, its a pretty fair fight.

[rancid dagger]

yeah a wyrm is a type of dragon but HK wyrms are just huge worms

[lucid fossil]

yah but they don’t share any similarities in hollow knight to real life

[quick cairn]

Even tho wyrms are supposed to be (earth?)worms

[rancid dagger]

it's probably word play to refer to dragons yeah

[keen compass]

I used them to no hit karmelita and nyleth

[rancid dagger]

but they are just worms

[winter iris]

Giant worms.

[keen compass]

then i stopped cuz i got bored

[rancid dagger]

i only used flint slate and flea brew but i will say the rail gun goes hard

[lucid fossil]

ur insane

[fringe comet]

wyrms in mythology are like big scaly worms with dragon heads

[keen compass]

I used cling grip to hug the wall and just spam yeet buttons

[lucid fossil]

nyleth abuse I understand but not my girl karmelita…

[winter iris]

Pale King is a fork head.

[fringe comet]

or snakes ig

[lucid fossil]

walking jail cell

[rancid dagger]

that's a snake 😭

[fringe comet]

yeah i caught myself

[bronze turret]

Sounds what PK's original body resembles to an extent

[keen compass]

Seth was kicking my butt so i swapped to something he couldnt block and went in with that

I regret nothing

[lucid fossil]

STOPPP WHY R U DOING THIS TO ALL THE PEAK BOSSES

[rancid dagger]

except the dragon head part

[lucid fossil]

bro killed lost lace via cogfly spam

[keen compass]

DONT BLOCK MY ATTACKS AND I WON'T

[keen compass]

I never used cogflies

[limber anvil]

Well think we can confrim there 2 cut towns... clam for the cut coral area and the barnicle for pharloom bay

[lucid fossil]

that’s a surprise

[keen compass]

I used rings, the railgun, and rosary cannon

VASHENKA

[winter iris]

POSHANKA

Money gun

[lucid fossil]

the rings are the only thing that make this valid (even though they’re lowkey ass)

[keen compass]

I gunned down seth, nyleth, and karmelita

[lucid fossil]

Keka!

[keen compass]

Every other boss I used the reaper crest and went straight hands

[winter iris]

"I gunned down Seth" is a sentence that should never be uttered under any concept.

[fringe comet]

seth is precious and must be dueled with honor

[coral wren]

Is green prince gay because if he mated with a female, his head would get eaten

[keen compass]

I kept dying to the shoeld

I had to do it

[fringe comet]

...inspired theory

[lucid fossil]

yes the cogwork dancers have masculine voices

[edgy barn]

Native leaders gunned down by inmigrant in Kingdom of Pharloom.

[keen compass]

this is my new Headcanon

[bronze turret]

Well, it's not a literal dragon head, but if you abstract the art enough, the head can be described as a mouth with long sharp teeth. We had one such art exercise back in college: take a purely textual description and develop the appearance of the creature from the text alone, not from previous visual definitions of it. It was an exercise of abstraction and reimagining.

[lucid fossil]

oh that’s what you were saying LOL

yeah that seems feasible or he’s just always been zesty like that

what straight man enjoys beautiful scenery over war tanks greymoor

[edgy nebula]

on the topic of the green prince, whoever voice acted him is amazing, his voice is absolute music

[keen compass]

anyways ima go back to tryna clear heat 32 Hades 2- Bai

GIMME SILKSONG GODHOME ALREADY

That is all.

[muted lantern]

theres a mod

[spring escarp]

Yes pogsong poghone.

[bronze turret]

I gotta go as well, bed is calling

[teal drift]

im surprised they didn't have an integrated godhome in skong at release

[fringe comet]

why would they? godhome was DLC in HK and itll probably be DLC in SS, you gotta wait until all the DLC bosses are out

[rancid dagger]

karrmelita VA is the goat

[rancid dagger]

it seems to make sense but then including future dlc bosses within the pantheons would suck

[fringe comet]

but yes i would have liked if it was

at least in a limited capacity

[silver spire]

why does everyone think needolin refers to violin 😭 needolin is clearly plucked, and it obviously draws inspiration from the mandolin, also plucked, as opposed to violin which has bows and pizzicato which still doesn't look like needolin

[rancid dagger]

the easier way is to leave the godhome equivalent as the last dlc as a way to keep the game sort of fresh after it's life cycle

[teal drift]

Why would the game that's like 3x as big as HK have one of HK's most famous options integrated? I don't actually mean a full thing, I just thought there'd be a refight feature of some variety.

[fringe comet]

im not saying i disagree with you, but i do wanna note that you can also pluck a violin

[foggy fractal]

do y'all think we'll get an nkg equivalent, a boss harder than lost lace in a dlc

[silver spire]

yea but pizz doesnt look anywhere close to how the needolin works

[fringe comet]

yeah i agree

[edgy nebula]

theatre king trobbio

[rancid dagger]

for sure

[teal drift]

I feel like the current lack of Godhome is probably more of a "we need to cook up lore" restriction, rather than a "difficult to program" restriction.

[limpid summit]

Undeniably

[pastel timber]

Cause more people know about the violin than the mandolin you gotta preach the gospel of truth for it to reach the masses

[rancid dagger]

although i'd argue karmelita is harder than lost lace

[silver spire]

beastfly family fr fr

[teal drift]

Very excited for elevated Skong fights in whatever they do for pantheon

[limpid summit]

I’m sure we’ll get a Sharpe rematch or a steel boss that’s harder

[fringe comet]

Nightmare King AssJim

[silver spire]

yea, since no dnail and such

[teal drift]

I think Karmelita is probably harder in an honest way but lost Lace can just literally be hard to see.

[foggy fractal]

oh why ?

[rancid dagger]

getting past the 98th stage of pantheon of pharloom only to die in void touched lace's 9th phase

[foggy fractal]

peak gameplay

[silver spire]

LL isnt that hard to see, you just gotta think ahead

[rancid dagger]

she is a lot more punishing and gives you less reaction time imo

[silver spire]

dont pay attention to one attack at a time, especially the void based ones

[fringe comet]

i beat karmalita on second try it took me way longer to learn LL, i think they are both tough though

[teal drift]

no i mean literally black on black

[silver spire]

LL has an outline i think

[teal drift]

she does but more than any other boss she and her attacks blend into the arena

[rancid dagger]

other way around for me, did lace in 3 tries, took a while for karmelita
i did fight karmelita with only the first pale ore upgrade to be fair

[teal drift]

tbh I wish they did a hornet vs hornet fight where you fight Hornet from HK in some way

[rancid dagger]

phantom is pretty much that tbf

[foggy fractal]

I was gonna say lost lace is a lot tankier but she isn't even that more much tanky
got only 300 more than karmelita

[rancid dagger]

or at least that's how the fight felt to me

[teal drift]

karm also blocks like a cheap mfer

[proud swan]

Nightmare Ass King Jim

[rancid dagger]

and that tankiness goes away considering karmelita blocks damage

[teal drift]

I think phantom kinda feels like that, but I mean specifically hornet vs hornet's moveset

give me my Skong Hornet vs Hornet slop

[rancid dagger]

could've happened on red memory but it wouldnt be thematically fitting

[teal drift]

is there stuff in the files indicating vespa may have been a boss

the best fart about "main character fights their shadow self" is that it's such lazy writing that you can just jam it literally anywhere

[rancid dagger]

dont think so

[silk dirge]

counterpoint celeste

[rancid dagger]

also they wouldn't have added a boss on red memory anyway since it's supposed to mirror abyss ascent

[proud swan]

isnt mandolin a cooking tool

[foggy fractal]

aside from the sprites I don't think so ?

[teal drift]

they should add a super secret boss to the red memory that 99% of players will miss

[silk dirge]

john silksong

[teal drift]

when god home comes around do we think they'll actually go for a double savage beastfly fight?

[silk dirge]

i hope not 😭

[teal drift]

ohhh a beastfly + skull tyrant fight >>>>

[silk dirge]

itll probably be like lost beastfly

or some shit

[rancid dagger]

that's already in the game

[teal drift]

tbh the ads were ALWAYS the problem for me on beastfly so making it 2 of them and not doing ads would probably be better for me

I do think double skull tyrant would be fitting

would skong godhome have an even stronger third trobbio

[edgy barn]

I honestly hope we don't get two beastflies and two tyrants in our godhome equivalent

[teal drift]

also i genuinely think if it uses the same lore framework, it is possible we may see an ascended void god Lace battle.

[silver spire]

TIP on beastfly 2: you can get out of the arena when ads spawn and run away without exiting the room, and the ads despawn once u get far enough

[teal drift]

who is going to be the soul warrior of the skong pantheons. Like the guy who clearly shouldn't be there.

[rancid dagger]

tip on beastfly 2: wait for act 3 so you get an extra needle upgrade

surely nothing bad happens

[rancid dagger]

the big ant who guards the entrance to hunter's march

[edgy barn]

Moss mother

[silver spire]

i think it would make beastfly easier imo, as the void attacks freeze enemies in place when using them

[teal drift]

wait this is fire

[silk dirge]

choir clapper

[rancid dagger]

it still gets almost double hp though
and the add spawns also get void touched

[teal drift]

mossmother imo should be there—she's clearly intended to be a tutorial boss so she belongs in the boss rush

[proud swan]

TIP on beastfly 2 stop playing period

[teal drift]

if we actually get a choir clapper bossfight in godhome equivalent.... that would go crazy

[silk dirge]

itll probably be 2 of them like final wave of hhg

[rancid dagger]

nyleth and seth duo fight in pantheon of pharloom

[teal drift]

how can i beat this without shakra

[edgy barn]

Like but seriously. The Skull Tyrant is the same across his two fights, and you can have Savage Beastfly I be the Attuned version and Savage Beastfly II be the Ascended version

[proud swan]

Garmond sorry

[edgy barn]

Oh yeah he is a boss

[teal drift]

Garmond is actually decently hard and scales up to other bosses in terms of trouble i had with him

[edgy barn]

no way

[teal drift]

or do you mean the non-void version

non-void version is definitely a joke

[proud swan]

I mean the non void

[edgy barn]

The normal version

[teal drift]

oh yeah

he would not fit in

[edgy barn]

Lost Gaemond can actually give you trouble

[teal drift]

what would the pantheon order be

[silver spire]

ascended LL is going to be lost and found lace fr fr

[silk dirge]

wdym lost verdania go find it

[foggy fractal]

lost verdania ? I'm in it rn !

[teal drift]

Colo 1:
Moss Mother(s)
Bell Beast (with kiddos?)
Skull Tyrant
Savage Beastfly
Lace

[foggy fractal]

lost lace ? lost garmond ? they're right there ?

[silk dirge]

lost garmond? but hes right there

[proud swan]

lost first sinner is gonna be so fire

[silver spire]

clover dancers will become monarch dancers, both dancers will be there, and theyre gonna be fast af

[silk dirge]

that already exists lol

[teal drift]

how many bosses are there

[silver spire]

already exists, bullet hell boss

[proud swan]

wait I found lost garmond in blasted steps

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_8gPXiZBHo&t=32s

[edgy barn]

Do we call all the voided enemies "Lost (Enemy Name)"?

[silk dirge]

yes

[proud swan]

yes I mean a real one

[rancid dagger]

what bosses get void touched if you leave them for act 3? i know beastfly and the brothers from deep docks

[teal drift]

Lost Sherma >>>>>

[proud swan]

although this modded is fire

[foggy fractal]

found lace: play me... your silk song.

[edgy barn]

Lugoli too

[rancid dagger]

i called them void touched because of risk of rain 2 im just too used to that name

[silk dirge]

brothers dont its their adds

[rancid dagger]

brothers also get void touched

[teal drift]

its gonna be so funny when act 3 exclusive boss Gurr the outcast is in a later pantheon despite being evil

[rancid dagger]

i fought them in act 3 in my playthrough

[silk dirge]

from what ive heard its just their adds

[rancid dagger]

nah they also get it

[edgy barn]

...what?

[silk dirge]

silly

[silver spire]

the forebrothers? no they dont

[edgy barn]

Like what's that sentence suppose to mean

[silk dirge]

i mean why is no eyes in p4

[foggy fractal]

instead of Gurr the Outcast
we'll have Gurr the accepted

TRUST.

[silk dirge]

gurr but skarr decided not to be racist

[foggy fractal]

FIRE

[proud swan]

Gurr the well supported individual

[teal drift]

yeah

coming up with a sensible pantheon order is so difficult lol

its kinda crazy that I've never seen signis and grond fought by anyone who wasn't... fighting them awkwardly late or (more rarely) awkwardly earl.

[foggy fractal]

forebrothers sigma and grok !!!

[teal drift]

its a remarkably juicdeless fight, esp considering its a duo fight

[foggy fractal]

do y'all think we'll ever get a quadriple fight

[edgy barn]

When are you supposed to fight them exactly? I suppose most people just kind of stumble into them whenever they realize they can finish exploring the deep docks

[teal drift]

idk how far TC will go with expanded fights

[teal drift]

yeah, i think i've mostly seen very later in the game players come across them and then frst or second try them, myself included

[silver spire]

i still didnt havae magma bell at the end of act 2 so i jsut powered through them in act 3 😭

[silk dirge]

i barely used magma bell

the only time i used magma bell was for the area where you get clawline

[teal drift]

i only used it for fire boss attacks

[silk dirge]

the fucking kamikaze fly things

[teal drift]

pantheon of pharloom is kinda a nightmare to order

[silk dirge]

those were not fun

[silver spire]

only time i used it was on father of the flame

[teal drift]

they gon the give father of the flame arena no floor

[foggy fractal]

yeah probably

[teal drift]

i hope yall ready for that

[foggy fractal]

dw Nyleth gave us enough practice

[silver spire]

theres no walls to jump on

its gonna be path of pain: the bossfight

[teal drift]

what other arena changes would go hard

[silk dirge]

steel master now has spikes covering the walls

im actually really curious about the steel masters and who they are

[teal drift]

wait, you know that one arena with the 2 collapsing platforms in lva? They gonna put savage beastfly there.

[silver spire]

nOOO

guys ascended karmelita would now summon ads

[silk dirge]

i know team cherry could make the pharloom bay with boat to steel city dlc and i need it 😭

[teal drift]

moorwing but you fight him on a parkour course

[craggy smelt]

aren't we all

[lethal burrow]

Ascended first sinner would have her own soundtrack

[silver spire]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-writing-fire-his-writing-is-fire-is-this-fire-hold-up-gif-15400153686296022809

[silk dirge]

ascended forebrothers summon flintflame flyers

[silver spire]

but an entire steel soul exclusive area tho

[teal drift]

imo ascended forebrothers need to start with the lava flow gimmick earlier

[silver spire]

wouldn't that be a bit weird

[lethal burrow]

i'm convinced the name for that boss is a typo and it's meant to be "forgebrothers"

[silk dirge]

i dont think itll be steel soul exclusive

[craggy smelt]

forbrothers

[silk dirge]

nah its intentional

[craggy smelt]

steel soul only DLC would be agony
learning all the fights, then re-doing the whole game...

[silver spire]

but the steel hearts dont exist in normal mode

[muted lantern]

Forebrother could be like foreman

[proud swan]

Oh thats a nice bit of knowledge

[lethal burrow]

I don't trust AI bullshit