sk-lore

[valid kelp]

meaning: silk is soul but not all forms of soul is silk

[edgy barn]

Silk is directly stated to be spun from soul by both Seamstress and the materium description

[pastel timber]

seamstresses dialogue does make me second guess, but at the point of "inseparably linked" the distinction doesnt really matter

[deep elk]

Maybe something to do with Wormways perhaps.

[deep elk]

The linked line makes me think of interconnected rather than the same.
If it was the same, it feels like the game would've told so otherwise.

[flint wadi]

they use soul to twist a spell that allows hornet to peer into her memory through silk

the memory is found within thread, its not really what the shamans use to unravel it within hornet

[pastel timber]

you do raise a good point actually, the snail shamans are using soul, not silk, but the deep memories are clearly linked to silk as every memory has the cobwebs running through it

[deep elk]

Not to mention, other creatures can't generate silk from soul like Hornet can.

[potent patio]

Isn’t it kind of fascinating how both kingdoms researched soul to extend life, but while the weavers encouraged it, the pale king deterred it. Yet another reason to write that apology letter

[pastel timber]

yeah only gms and the weavers can turn their soul into silk

[edgy barn]

"Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator. Highly coveted for its remarkable strength and mystical properties. Used to heal wounds, extend life and weave powerful runes." -Materium

[deep elk]

Hornet gathers her silk through the souls of creatures. She also gets it from the bugs in Nameless Town, who are unaffected by the haunting and GMS. They can't even be affected by Needolin. I TRIED-

[orchid whale]

My take:
Silk spun by weavers can contain memories, for some reason.
Whenever there's a corpse you can hear a memory from, it's always one that has silk tied to its corpse.
And when Hornet gets the Everbloom, she states that there's "still a memory of it in her silk."

I don't think it's that soul itself necessarily carries memories (or maybe it does, but there aren't a lot of instances where we see this if so), but silk seems capable of containing memories.

[flint wadi]

to me it seems like either remains of haunted thread that no longer possess a bug or that memory sort of condensates into silk somehow

[deep elk]

Doesn't necessarily state who can create the silk. Just it's property.

[pastel timber]

the unravelled is also said to be silk imbued with the rage of the dead, silk can clearly hold properties like memories and emotion, most likely because its soul (which we know can do the same via vengeful spirit)

[flint wadi]

responding to this

[edgy barn]

As far as we know, only weavers and GMS can create, and the former got the ability from the latter.

[orchid whale]

Considering Hornet just has the memory of the everbloom in her silk, I'm inclined to assume that the silk doesn't need to do anything to register the memory, other than be around.

I don't know how or why but, spider magic

[deep elk]

GMS also isn't in any way related to wyrms.
So could there still be another ruler for Pharloom like PK? Or it isn't necessary for Wyrms for kingdoms to thrive?

[potent patio]

My theory of why the everbloom is delicate to the knight but not Hornet is because the knight is void, and any sudden influx of void causes the flower to shatter

[orchid whale]

My money is still on this being a wyrm

[flint wadi]

its not necessary

[pastel timber]

wyrms arent necessary, theyre just really good at being leaders (PK was faced with an insurmountable challenge)

[orchid whale]

Just because it's not necessary that doesn't mean it's impossible.

[flint wadi]

too small, mouth isnt shaped like one either

[pastel timber]

we do only have one wyrm to go off, we have no idea if all the others look the same, theyre gods they could each be unique

[orchid whale]

Its insides are bigger than the Pale Kings', and it stretches far into the background.
We don't know if mouths are a defining feature either, or if the vary.
It's a worm though. It has no legs

[silver spire]

im betting its the skull of one of those bigger creatures that the skull tyrant took to wear on top of him

[potent patio]

Maybe an ancient void worshipper like in hallownest

[pastel timber]

none we can see at least

[orchid whale]

It's got a worm body is the thing, as far as we can see

[deep elk]

The flower slowly decays in the cutscene too. Tho for gameplay purposes, never in the game but that doesn't have lore implication.

Does that mean Ze'mer knew that the Knight is void?

[pastel timber]

that is a huge stretch given that this thing isnt near the abyss

[flint wadi]

no lore does anything to imply it and if its not necessary then the reasonable conclusion is that there isnt one

[pastel timber]

the white lady does say "you must not understand it if youre holding it so close"

[orchid whale]

It's just a guess, I'm not stating I have objective proof

[potent patio]

I mean, she was a right hand knight to the pale king

[deep elk]

Genuinely looks like one but from front. Instead of sideways like Colo and PK.

[edgy barn]

Ogrim recognized the Knight as being the same type of creature THK was, so is possible the great knights knew that the Vessel was Void

[orchid whale]

Btw are we any closer to knowing what this is? lol

[left oyster]

i do wonder why the knight isn't just
allergic to the flower

[deep elk]

True. If anyone would know, it'd be the 5 knights.
Dung Defender doesn't give much info but doesn't necessarily say he doesn't know either does he?

[potent patio]

Yeah well neither was the one in queens gardens

[left oyster]

nope

[deep elk]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA- NOT THAT MYSTERY 😭

[pastel timber]

it looks like a huge pharlid, its probably a stone fossil tomb the same as the weavers in pharloom

[deep elk]

It has haunted my dreams. WHAT IS IT-

[flint wadi]

casual reminder that pk's wyrm carcass was the length of entirety of kingdoms edge

[silver spire]

well i think it was because the shade wasnt in direct contact with the flower

[pastel timber]

do we think the big one in queens gardens was a void worshipper????

[potent patio]

I’m pretty sure dung defender is just in denial

[potent patio]

Thats what I’ve heard

[pastel timber]

assumedly where the steel seers come from

[edgy barn]

...based on what?

[flint wadi]

nope.... haha

[left oyster]

why can it use shade cloak while holding it then

inconsistencies? in MY 8 year old game?

[orchid whale]

Gameplay

[deep elk]

Optimistic. But also just in depression of the lost of his kingdom.

[left oyster]

grrr it's LORE inconsistency

[potent patio]

Does that mean that only the permadeath mode is canon?

[pastel timber]

it has no dialogue, nobody refers to it, the filename is something like "garden beast", theres nothing remotely implying it unless im wrong

[flint wadi]

at best i guess cause it has its shell on

[left oyster]

hollow knight actually SUCKS because of this ONE thing

[orchid whale]

It's inconsistent, but we have plenty of evidence of what the Everbloom does, so it's a confident inconsistency

[pastel timber]

assumedly, i dont think hornet reviving at benches after death is very canon

[orchid whale]

Oh also btw

[potent patio]

It was actually just a bad dream

[deep elk]

................ I'm gonna throw legos at you. /j

[orchid whale]

Where did the Weavers in Hollownest return to?

[flint wadi]

good fucking question actually

i guess they were likely turned into limb soup by gms' citadel

[deep elk]

Pharloom adn got captured?

[silver spire]

also where does the knight hold its stuff lol

[pastel timber]

maybe they died on the way home who knows, almost definitely a retcon 😭

[silver spire]

or hornet for that matter

[pastel timber]

she has so many pockets in that cloak

[silver spire]

like where do they hold the 10 bajillion tools/charms and other relics that they have

[flint wadi]

well it can only make sense that the citadel hunted them down

[orchid whale]

In one of the Weavernests, there's actually this map you can find, leading to different kingdoms.
What if the Weavers didn't simply go from Pharloom to Hollownest, but there are other kingdoms they settled in? Perhaps maybe even with bigger settlements than they had in Deepnest?

[flint wadi]

the returning weavers not the original ones

[potent patio]

The void consumes

[left oyster]

tool POUCH? make that a tool potato sack

[deep elk]

What even is the timeline here?
So they were given their elevated forms through GMS. Then rebelled and went to Hallownest? Then fled coz Radiance was being a petty bitch. And then they were captured?

[pastel timber]

we wouldve seen if they did, they almost definitely died before that began, hell they ran away before hallownest got fully infected and that was a long time ago

[deep elk]

Maybe they were captured from different kingdoms

[edgy barn]

It would make sense. The weird part is that we see no records of it

[left oyster]

Weavers run away at any sight of a threat

[pastel timber]

they werent captured they died, theyd be accounted for in pharloom if they were captured

[potent patio]

Thats more than likely, it’s basically canon!

[graceful grail]

There are alot of carrages outside the cradle

[orchid whale]

I think it's a good theory

[deep elk]

Ok important question.
Wtf was Hornet doing after Hollow Knight?
WHERE was Hornet after Hollow Knight?

[pastel timber]

different groups of weavers definitely fled to different kingdoms

[left oyster]

When the theory is COOL

It stands for Cohesive On Other Lore

[potent patio]

Pharloom

[flint wadi]

maybe, though i feel like gms' citadel would wait them with open arms should they even step into pharlooms territory

[pastel timber]

chilling
in hallownest
that last one we know for sure one of the relics says she was taken from the "kingdom of the white wyrm"

[deep elk]

I will throw chicken nuggets at you.

[orchid whale]

We also still don't know where the Everbloom or Jinn is from, so we know of at least one other Kingdom outside of the two established.

Unironically there's a part of me that feels like these details in specific are leading up to some third game with a kingdom more dominantly tied to the void.

[edgy barn]

Also, what did the weavers returning to Pharloom expect to find? Did they knew that the weavers that stayed managed to seal GMS and create the citadel? If so, how? And if they didn't know, did they expect GMS to just forgive them?

[deep elk]

So it is confirmed that she still was in Hallownest.

Another question, how much time passed since Hollow Knight.

[pastel timber]

jinn is also a steelheart, so if we take zi being from the steel city then jinn is too, as for the everbloom they come from za'mer's home kingdom which as of now is unnamed and unknown

[deep elk]

The events would likely also severely change based on which ending is true. Which, it can only be 3, 4, or 5.

[graceful grail]

Next DLC moght be Hornet connecting with her Wyrm side??

Silksong: WyrmBlood??

[pastel timber]

we dont know the better question is does it matter, a bunch?, theres no days or months or years in this world we base timelines off of distinct events, and between hk ending and silksong beginning theres no events to mark the passage of time

[orchid whale]

Also
Why did the Weavers have a nest in the Abyss?

[deep elk]

Cloth's another character whose from outside Hallownest.

[graceful grail]

Could have sunk

[orchid whale]

No they had a sign depicting void given form, they were studying it

[pastel timber]

i'd be pretty interested in the void if i were a pharloom demigod honestly

[deep elk]

RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT! LIKE HOW IS THAT EVEN THERE-

[left oyster]

Wanted to learn about it probably
Pale King wannabe-ass

[graceful grail]

The Dive Bell down

[deep elk]

Zi?

[pastel timber]

cause in pharlooms past they regularly visited below the lava lake using the diving bell (which is why its there in the first place) so the abyss was a known place under pharloom, they probably then built it

[orchid whale]

Y'know...
The Weavers dabbled in advanced technology.

[pastel timber]

steel seer zi, one of two steel soul exclusive NPCs

[graceful grail]

Yeah, GMS like “i aint touching that shi”

[left oyster]

It'd be pretty cool if the Steel Masters were Weavers or some shi

[pastel timber]

jinn was not created by the weavers this is the biggest stretch ive ever seen

[left oyster]

It is a stretch

But it sounds cool

[deep elk]

Oh I haven't played SS in Silksong yet. Will later. Atp, no point in tryna avoid spoilers for that.

[orchid whale]

I mean, why is it a stretch?
I doubt Jinn was created by the Weavers, but is it possible there's shared history in another land?

[deep elk]

The silkshot could've been created through a study of creatures like Jinn

[pastel timber]

if you refuse zi's quest they say they suffered compression by the masters, which is implied to be how steelhearts like zi and jinn are formed, the weavers are not the masters because zi also says the masters will hunt sula down, implying theyre actually alive, and since zi is observing pharloom she knows the weavers are dead

[edgy barn]

I disagree that the diving bell was how weavers accessed the abyss. It doesn't look like a weaver creation and is also quite far from the Weavenest itself.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah the steel souls seem to have absolutely nothing to do with the weavers. Their style of automatons seems completely different than the steel souls

[pastel timber]

i suppose its possible that some weavers fled to the steel city but they wouldnt have returned

[viscid ridge]

We know of a halfspawn weaver that was captured in the city of steel

[deep elk]

What even is the steel city?

[pastel timber]

either way we know for a fact that both the weavers and the bugs working for the citadel in the deep docks accessed the abyss one way or another, the way we exit the abyss the first time couldve easily been the weavers way in

[pastel timber]

hornets the halfspawn weaver, the steel of city one was quarter weaver

[pastel timber]

assumedly its where the steelhearts and their vassals (plus the masters) hail from

[lethal burrow]

I like to think it's on an island

[viscid ridge]

I mean halfspawn as in they are part weaver, im not talking about specifics

[deep elk]

Steelhearts are the name of creatures like Jinn?

[viscid ridge]

Yeah

[pastel timber]

ohh right right

[edgy barn]

It was caught beneath the city. The distinction could be important.

[pastel timber]

jinn and zi are the only ones we know of, besides the one big flying one from the trailers that didnt make base game

[viscid ridge]

What is Zi's title again?

[edgy barn]

Steel Seer

[pastel timber]

it could be but its almost definitely not, and if it is it wont be until we get to see more of the steel city

[lethal burrow]

steal sear

[pastel timber]

steel soul jinn
steel seer zi

[viscid ridge]

Cause there seems to be a higharchy of the Steelhearts.
We have the masters who rule above the steelhearts, servents such as Jinn, who seems to be a steel heart, but also seems to serve the masters, and the little spider guys like jiji and the little guy from Silksong.

Im just not very knowledgeable about this part of the lore cause ive not personally put that much research into it. Im sure there are others who know more about it than me

But that makes me wonder where Zi belongs in this higharchy

[pastel timber]

theres not much to go off but what we do know is very interesting
there are the vassals, they serve the steelhearts, for what purpose we dont know
there are the steelhearts, cold robots who sit and observe kingdoms for some reason
there are the masters, terrifying powerful, capable of "compressing" higher beings and turning them into steelhearts, who are currently hunting sula for betraying them and becoming "tarnished" by their interaction with void

jinn and zi are steelhearts, jiji and sula are vassals, we've not yet seen or heard of an individual master

[vivid kernel]

Can someone help me? I defeated the Hello Knight but when I left and came back from the game he was still there, and one question, why didn't Hornet appear?

[pastel timber]

when you beat the game it reloads you at your last bench cause it would suck if you just lost your save file
hornet didnt appear cause you havent met the requirements for true ending
but this is the silksong lore channel youre looking for #hk-help

[viscid ridge]

Where does the part where they compress higher beings come from?

[pastel timber]

declining zi's quest

[viscid ridge]

You got the normal ending, there are other steps you need to do, but this is better suited for HK help

[vivid kernel]

thank you very much

[viscid ridge]

Idk that sounds to me as a reference to something else. I honestly dont think the steel hearts are powerful enough to do that to Pale Beings.

[pastel timber]

not the steelhearts, the masters
and like yeah we dont actually know for sure what compression is but like, cmon, what else could it mean, torture? its way too specific a word for that

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-conifer-gif-26376700

[pastel timber]

the steelhearts have steel hearts, those darker silver gems at their core, those are assumedly the result of "compressing" a being, and thats why zi says "we" have suffered it

[viscid ridge]

The masters may be higher beings, from the way they are talked about it sounds like they might be, but to me it sounds kinda like something else, but im gonna go look at the context of this dialogue before i make a hypothesis about it

[muted lantern]

HELP HELP IM BEING COMPRESSED!

[pastel timber]

theres not much other context, zi is referring to "defying the masters", they are certainly regarded as insanely powerful beings too, whatever compression is they do it "especially" to higher beings, they must be powerful

[viscid ridge]

I doubt compression is litteral compression, but i see what you mean

[limpid summit]

Couldn’t this also refer to powerful bugs like Weavers? We know one was staked to service in the city

[edgy nebula]

is there a lore reason as to why frayed rosary strings are always behind the most celeste-level platforming

[pastel timber]

zi calls hornet higher in that dialogue so yeah weavers are probably included

[limpid summit]

I’d love to believe the masters are out here neg diffing HBs

[muted lantern]

god hates us

[pastel timber]

william pellen hates you

[limpid summit]

More Sharpe gas

[muted lantern]

I asked william pellen what happened to steel assassin sharpe and he shot me twice in the head

then buried me on a hillside to be saved by a robot cowboy

[viscid ridge]

Tbf i think calling her a Pale It refers to her Wyrm side

[pastel timber]

interestingly she also assumes that a pale being is tamed and bound by "masters", like genuinely what are these things why are they so powerful

[viscid ridge]

Thats what im skeptical about

[pastel timber]

like you can argue zi reveres the masters enough to assume theyre in control of everyone, but saying "especially you higher" shows shes aware of the power the masters have over higher beings

when you then return to accept the quest she assumes youve been sent "by masters served"

[keen compass]

Ok hear me out I have a theory bout the lifeblood higher being based on the dream nail dialogue in SS with the alchemist- What if its not an inherently evil being but its a higher being all about bringing bliss and longevity to those who drink of its blood- However in doing so, its almost parasitical in how it consumes them and everything around them

[viscid ridge]

Cause the Masters seemes to just be more robot like names for the God or ruler of the Steel hearts, similar to GMS or the Pale wyrm. So we can interpret her words as being: You recall the fate of those who defy their god, you know obedience is required. We have suffered the consequences of not obeying our gods, something we do not wish on others. But there seems to be something missing im not sure

[edgy nebula]

so far the hierarchy for the faction seems like

masters
something slightly below them
steelhearts/vassals
assassins(?)

[azure dirge]

Its not necessarily inherently evil but lifeblood does twist the world and those who ingest it into its image. It's definitely not good.

[keen compass]

Oh I came in at a poor time lol

[pastel timber]

its specifically the "especially you higher" that stops me thinking this, zi has known of higher beings that have suffered this fate under her masters, which is a terrifying concept

[edgy nebula]

assassins might be the thing above steelhearts actually

or no wait, one sec

[pastel timber]

assassins are likely above steelhearts or on the same level, vassals are the lowest

[keen compass]

Its not good, but not evil either, its a neutral overwhelming force I think we'll see become a future enemy

[edgy nebula]

masters
steelhearts(?)
steel beings/vassals/assassins

[viscid ridge]

No idea of the assasins, probably on the same level as Jinn, cause they are probably made for one single purpose, same as her

[muted lantern]

if hornet can't get drunk can she get high?

[keen compass]

Btw random note but-

Why has no one talked about the Voltwyrm?

[rain gate]

*voltvyrm

[light saddle]

The Hunter can, so I see no reason why not

[rain gate]

not a wyrm

[viscid ridge]

Thats the thing, if we refer to what happened between the radiance and the pale king, those 2 lines of dialogue makes a lot of sense

[keen compass]

Sorry misspell, but I do think its very curious

[rain gate]

i thought you meant it was a wyrm no worries

[viscid ridge]

What about it?

[pastel timber]

the volt filament calls the individual worms in the nest "voltwyrms" but the journal entry calles them "worms", so either way theyre not the pale king kind of wyrm

[keen compass]

I think it is a wyrm offshoot actually

[lethal burrow]

vyrms are a type of worm

[keen compass]

Similar to how greyroot is a root offshoot, not a wyrm similar to how greyroot isn't a root creature like the white lady

[viscid ridge]

I think the Voltvyrm is just the name of the collective of worms, kinda like a rat king

[pastel timber]

not really? only if youre saying zi's dialogue just means "even gods have consequences" which seems reductive given she doesnt shut up about the masters in any single line of dialogue

[keen compass]

My betting money is that it relates to the thunder gods

[pastel timber]

the journal entry calls the voltvyrm "coiled nest of charged worms"

[keen compass]

cuz the nest has no real lore or relation outside of potentially that

[pastel timber]

does it have to though

[keen compass]

I mean, it'd be nice

[viscid ridge]

Honestly Greyroot is suspiciously similar to White Lady, i just cant prove it

[keen compass]

She's like a ringworm, I said it already

Ringworm is called that despite not being an actual worm. It just looks like one

Greyroot looks like a root bug, but isn't one obviously

Greyroot is a literal parasite

[pastel timber]

sure but theres no reason or indication for it like at all, theyre just electric eel bugs from what used to be the ocean area, being connected to a dead god from a completely separate kingdom is a bit of a reach

[viscid ridge]

I interpret it more in terms of higher beings being more aware about the state of the world, and know better than the common bug about the consiquences of their actions.

[viscid ridge]

How so?

[keen compass]

If there's any theory I am 100% certain on, its that Greyroot is called that as a red herring as well, because we know she isn't a root being like white lady

[pastel timber]

i suppose you could take it that way, but every single thing zi says relates back to the masters without fail, so i doubt shes talking about anything but the consequences of defying the masters here

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats obvious, but im refering more to physical similarities. Im not saying shes directly related to WL, but they seem to be part of the same species or something. Something about her is suspicious

[keen compass]

They aren't

[lethal burrow]

What about that ending though?

[keen compass]

Greyroot is like ringworm

[keen compass]

More proof that she is like ringworm

It looks like a worm, wiggles like a worm, but isn't a worm in the slightest

Its a parasite that takes a semi appealing form similar to something else in nature to latch onto something to further its own goals

[edgy nebula]

hornet calls her not a bug nor a beast

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, im just not very confortable with your interpretation of how powerful the masters actually are. But tbf we dont really have that much evidence to back anything up, so your theory is as good as anyone elses

[lethal burrow]

It looks a lot like wood in the ending

[pastel timber]

eva calls greyroot "that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image"

[edgy nebula]

the twisted bud is also a bud

[keen compass]

As I said, LOOKS like it

[pastel timber]

i dont think shes saying its literally ringworm, just that its faking looking like something else for its own parasitic gains, like how ringworms do

[lethal burrow]

If you poked it, would it be soft?

[keen compass]

^^^^

[pastel timber]

its a mimic predator

[keen compass]

Its not root, its something else that LOOKS like root

[viscid ridge]

Maybe not, but they look weirdly similar, and even have the same weird accent all im saying 🤚😞🤚

[keen compass]

Is no one reading wut I am saying?

[azure dirge]

I think it might be a little evil, it does entrance bugs and corrupt their flesh until they succumb to the lifeblood and it blooms from them. Eventually it does replace the person entirely, as with Joni she is dead, she becomes a dream spirit which means it did kill her eventually after blooming from her life.

[keen compass]

I just said: It looks similar on purpose...

Its a literal parasite

[pastel timber]

its interesting that you think that though considering nothing else looks like it unless you travel a long way to a totally different kingdom

[keen compass]

It LOOKS like 'x' so it can latch onto you and do STUFF

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, its evil, but it thinks its doing something good, by spreading its own form of "life"

[pastel timber]

like whats the point of mimicking the white lady if the white lady only exists across the wastes, greyroot has probably no idea the white lady even exists

[keen compass]

People cited how similar to the white lady the greyroot character is, I been saying its purposeful but they're nothin alike

[keen compass]

Its less about mimicking the white lady

We kno the white lady isn't the only root being at the minimum

Similar to how the pale king isn't the only wyrm

Greyroot we know is ancient at the least and could be a higher being parasite

Hence looking like root but not being it in the slightest

[viscid ridge]

I doubt greyroot is a higher being, but she is pretty powerful

[keen compass]

She isn't a higher being

[pastel timber]

yeah it only reforms itself until hornet gives it gms' power

[keen compass]

No one reads wut I say I swear TwT

[keen compass]

^

[pastel timber]

oh you mean a parasite that preys on higher beings

[keen compass]

A parasite that targets higher beings, not a literal higher being

[pastel timber]

no, pavlo tells us it also targets regular bugs

[viscid ridge]

Makes sense

[keen compass]

it does but it clearly wants bigger fish

[pastel timber]

something something "ive seen many bugs walk into the heart of shellwood with similar buds and not return"

[pastel timber]

doesnt mean it "targets" higher beings, and certainly proves its nature isnt revolving around them

[keen compass]

I mean, its notable enuff to make Eva absolutely crash out

[viscid ridge]

But something that makes me doubt that, is that Hornet comments that if she wasn't half a higher beingz the parasite would have taken over her body quicker, meaning the parasite isn't specifically made to take over higher beings idk

[keen compass]

not sayin it specifically targets higher beings but that it wants more power and hungers like a parasite would

and higher beings are wut it wants most of all for its rite of rebirth

[viscid ridge]

Yeah

[pastel timber]

"you will not claim my soul" its a parasite it eats whatever it gets inside, eva doesnt want to be eaten

[edgy barn]

Did Greyroot know Hornet was special beforehand though? None of her dialogue implies it

[viscid ridge]

But honestly maybe it is higher being level, if we assume lifeblood is also sourced by a higher being

[pastel timber]

theres not much evidence for that, hornet is just wrong place wrong time, nobody else was visiting greyroot for the opportunity to strike

[keen compass]

There isn't, but the ending at the least suggests it can prey upon higher beings if given the opportunity

Strong enuff to bring Hornet AND GMS down

[pastel timber]

hornet did bind gms' strength to it, but that feels more like something hornet made happen vs something the parasite did on its own

either way this has gone down a rabbit hole that forgets the original purpose of this

[viscid ridge]

But also weak enough to be weakened by a few steel nails 😅

And not even magical steel, just normal steel

[pastel timber]

greyroot likely doesnt look like that in order to trick people due to the complete lack of root beings within pharloom, which begs the question why the aesthetic similarities

white lady and greyroot clearly act completely differently biologically, in terms of reproduction for sure

[edgy barn]

I think she just looks like that

[keen compass]

In the ending she doesn't bind gms on her own

The parasite once u win the fight just springs forth and consumes them both

[pastel timber]

really?

[keen compass]

yes

That's what makes it so alarming

There's no binding or anything, it just happens

Its strong enough to just spring forth against Hornet's will and consume two extremely powerful beings at once

Completely seal them, consume them, and birth something terrifying

[pastel timber]

huh so it does

[edgy nebula]

can also break from cages with seals on them

[keen compass]

That implies its stronger or higher being adjacent akin to the abyss

[edgy nebula]

at no cost to its strength at all

[keen compass]

Whatever greyroot is, its something that not even gods can defeat

cuz its 'seal' was capable of just straight up killing GMS and Hornet

Something that the weaver's own seal couldn't do

The weaver's couldn't seal GMS permanently, but this thing was able to do so and even completely consume GMS + Hornet

[pastel timber]

well yarnaby does a pretty good job stabbing it and then hornet can claim its power as its own, its if hornet doesnt defeat it that it gets a free ride to consume both her and gms

its nature is so obscure

[keen compass]

Well in that scenario the parasite is extracted then presumably killed, but Hornet can still harness its powers leftover from its effects on her person

[pastel timber]

its not extracted or killed its just weakened/dislodged

[keen compass]

I'll have to double check the operation then

either way whatever this thing is, its potentially void adjacent in terms of power and its ability to consume whatever it comes across

[fringe comet]

its worth further discussion ofc, but the other being referred to as root in HK canon is WL

[lethal burrow]

But why would it want to look like a tree person to latch onto you though surely looking like a regular bug would be better

[pastel timber]

"unbound somewhat" "whatever remnant still lingers"

[keen compass]

yea the implication I thought was that the core parasite was extracted and merc'd

[pastel timber]

yeah its not looking like a root to trick people, it looks unnatural like that, but then what is it

[fading mountain]

I have classified each of Hollow Knight’s bug into 5 classes based on how much power they possess.

Class 1 - Higher/Pale beings
They are essentially god amongst the bugs, having the most awareness on how the world works, what influences it, and most importantly, have immense powers. Class 1 would be home to beings like Grandmother Silk, the Pale King, White Lady, Unn, The Nightmare Heart, The Shade Lord, and the Radiance.

Class 2 - Potential Higher Beings/Pale Beings.
Beings here have the potential to reach Class 1, either by being direct children of the higher beings or by absorbing the power of a higher being. The bugs of this class generally have more might than influential powers. Beings in class 2 would consist of The Knight, The Hollow Knight, Hornet, Grimm (he is the avatar of the Nightmare Heart, a servant, he gets his power from the Nightmare Heart.), and maybe Lace.

Class 3 - Followers of gods and other powerful entities but lacks the power of a true higher being.
This class consists of bugs that are to be reckoned with, though individually insignificant to higher beings, in a group, even the gods can’t ignore them. Higher beings also could make other lower class bugs into a class 3 bugs as seen in SilkSong with Grandmother Silk with the first sinner’s cutscene. Class in this category could probably become higher beings but very unlikely since they will have to absorb the power of one, or become a class 2 being if a higher being favors them enough. Bugs in this category includes leaders of nations/tribes (Skarrsinger Karmelita, Coral Khann, Heart of the Woods Nyleth, The Mantis Tribe sisters, Hive Queen Vespa, and Soul Master of the Soul Sanctum), The Moth Tribe, The Snail Shamans, and the Weavers.
There are probably more but I can’t name them on top of my head. Other significant individuals are Monomon the teacher, Beast Queen Herrah, and the other dreamer whose name I forgot.

Continuing with another message since this one is too long

[keen compass]

its not lookin like a root to trick people but is probably a parasite related to root

Its extremely powerful tho

[pastel timber]

putting the weavers in the same tier as the mantis lords is definitely an interesting choice

[keen compass]

on the topic of WL tho, you guys think the Pale King planned for the events of Hallownest and Pharloom to happen?

Like he took a bet on possible futures to secure his legacy/rule, and settled on this timeline of events to bet on

[pastel timber]

no he kinda explicitly didnt want the radiance to break free from the seal, and i doubt hes aware of pharloom given he calls hallownest the "last" civilisation

[keen compass]

Hear me out

[fading mountain]

They are in the same class, they are definitely mightier.

[keen compass]

WL was able to communicate from the past through a memory to give a flower with power to surpass the void

WL also seemingly knew this was goin to happen

What if the Pale King knew about all this, and essentially secured his kingdom's safety not only from the radiance

But also the void, and the weavers/GMS

the longest of long hauls

[pastel timber]

well thats like saying karmelita attacked an empty theatre cause she knew hornet would be there in the memory, the memory realm isnt strict on what it shows hornet

[fading mountain]

Weavers would be the higher Class 3 while Mantis Lords are lower ones, I am ranking them based on how much power they possess

[edgy nebula]

i imagine white lady is a root in her prime, focused on breeding, while greyroot is a root past her prime, focusing on rebirthing and parasitism to get more power

[pastel timber]

understandable

[keen compass]

that is not the same thing

[edgy nebula]

it could also be the other way, with greyroot being younger and doing it to become strong and to breed in the end

[keen compass]

WL literally talks to Hornet of the present through the memory and gives her the god flower aka everbloom

She also implies she knew Hornet would come for the flower

[orchid whale]

I think Greyroot is void

[keen compass]

That one is a def not I think

She has no void particles or any signatures of it

[orchid whale]

She also doesn't go by she 😡

[pastel timber]

it doesnt mean thats literally what she said in the past though, and she responds to hornet talking about the present to her

[keen compass]

I'm not sayin that's wut she said in the past

[pastel timber]

so why do you say she knew this was gonna happen

[keen compass]

I am sayin she is clearly powerful enough to speak through a memory and grant a god flower, and we know she can perceive future events

[keen compass]

Because the PK also can see the future

its implied WL can too

[pastel timber]

the point of red memory was that hornet was taking the everbloom from her memory, she was shown it in the past and thats how she retains it, its not the white lady's power manifesting it thats the point of the ancient hearts quest

[pastel timber]

but to that extent when he couldnt even foresee his seal failing?

[keen compass]

The WL does talk to her tho through the memory

[pastel timber]

saying that PK planned ahead for the fall of pharloom feels like a bit much

[spark valve]

she is not a wyrm that's a wyrm thing

[keen compass]

In the memory sequence, WL 'breaks' out of the recollection and just straight up talks to present Hornet

[keen compass]

its a pale being thing

[fading mountain]

Class 4 - Bugs here are generally the citizens/members of a bigger group. They are weak and numerous in numbers. Some are above others, like if you are born in a warrior tribe or other group under a Class 3 Leader. Or if you are lucky, gain the favor of higher class beings. Bugs in this category definitely have some formidable bugs, but are very few. Class mobility in this class is possible but extremely low. In Pharloom most of them are slaves for example and are likely to be just money farm for Hornet. Notable beings in this class are Shakra, Cornifier, and many other NPCs.

Class 5 - The animals and livestocks. Bugs in this class are what animals are to humans, some are dangerous, others are pets and such. No social mobility here.

[spark valve]

Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things.
it is a wyrm thing not a pale being thing

[pastel timber]

for one line, "wrest it out of this remembrance", shes powerful, she can do that in memories cause shes a god, but thats completely unrelated to her predicting the events of silksong

[keen compass]

yet she then displays a degree of foresight citing she knew hornet would need the everbloom someday

[pastel timber]

hell the white lady isnt even aware of the dnm ending being possible, she tells you to usurp the hollow knight, where hornet is aware of dnm ending being possible at the same point in time

[spark valve]

no she doesn't

[pastel timber]

she literally does not say that

[agile osprey]

Why is the knight in the abyss in the skong true ending?

[spark valve]

because that's where it goes after dnm and etv

[keen compass]

because EtV ending is the canon ending

Of HK

[pastel timber]

she just says "i would show you the gift since youve seen the truth"

[spark valve]

it's not

[keen compass]

We see the shades and the void god

It has to be EtV

[spark valve]

no it doesn't

[keen compass]

The shades only get consumed in the EtV ending

[spark valve]

it's meant to be ambiguous

[fringe comet]

it could be ETV or DNM

[keen compass]

In DNM the knight doesn't get the void god form either, and the shades aren't consumed

[pastel timber]

its left deliberately vague between the two if you try hard enough you can come up with a reason for it to be dnm but its totally etv cause its the way cooler ending

[keen compass]

So its the EtV ending for sure

[fringe comet]

not for sure, it's one of two possibilities

[spark valve]

you're just saying shit the shades aren't consumed in etv nor does sotv suggest the shades have been consumed

[keen compass]

Also the everbloom shows up in the EtV ending not DNM, which further ties it to silksong

[fringe comet]

the shades return to void in DNM and ETV

[fringe comet]

uhh, the everbloom does not show up in ETV

[spark valve]

that premise isn't true and the conclusion wouldn't follow even if it was

[keen compass]

Dude what, the void rises up with all the shades in EtV

[pastel timber]

delicate flower exists anyway

[fringe comet]

it shows up in DF, a different ending

[spark valve]

that is dnm

[keen compass]

then the void god shows up and rips radiance apart

[pastel timber]

oh my god are we actually arguing over whether dnm or etv is canon

[fringe comet]

the shades are not present in ETV, just shade lord

[fringe comet]

no im just saying it could be either

[spark valve]

it could be either

[fringe comet]

not definetly ETV

[keen compass]

Wait am I confusing ETV with DNM? Which one is godhome again, cuz i may be misremembering now

[rancid dagger]

etv is godhome

[fading mountain]

Embrace the Void ending is cooler cuz HK lives and generally is a much happier ending than Dream No More

[fringe comet]

godhome is ETV

[whole hawk]

Speaking of canon ETV. The Knight gets a pet nightmare. Horner gets a pet Lace. THK in the third game should get a lifeblood pet at the end.

[silver spire]

etv

[fading mountain]

EtV is cannon for me

[pastel timber]

the knight gets what

[keen compass]

'pet lace'is not a sentence i needed

[fading mountain]

Hornet X Lace

[rancid dagger]

and gms gets me as a pet (hopefully)

[pastel timber]

would you not pet lace if given the chance, she needs some love and affection

[keen compass]

don't give the internet more fuel

[keen compass]

THEY ARE SISTERS IN RELATIONSHIP

SISTERS/RIVALS/FRENS

[fading mountain]

Hornet X Lace

[rancid dagger]

aunt and niece actually

[pastel timber]

theyre literally not 😭

[fading mountain]

They are

[pastel timber]

this is also not true

[keen compass]

I do not mean literally

[fading mountain]

Technically

[whole hawk]

Grimm.

[pastel timber]

chat its an entire plot point that the weavers arent the daughters of gms

[keen compass]

I said in RELATIONSHIP

[rancid dagger]

adoptive aunt and niece

[edgy nebula]

id swing her around by her weird horn things for enrichment

[keen compass]

I SAID RELATIONSHIP

[fading mountain]

They have no bloodship though, even though they are related

[fringe comet]

horent and lace are not sisters in any regard, including rleationship

[keen compass]

THEY HAVE A SISTERLY RELATIONSHIP

Not a romantic one

[fading mountain]

Hornet X Lace

[pastel timber]

idk i dont have that relationship with my sister

[fading mountain]

:3

[keen compass]

CAN TWO GIRLS BE FRENS

[whole hawk]

I mean if we're talking about weird ass bug yuri then at some point in the future Lace will be completely comprised of Hornet.

[fading mountain]

No, Hornet X Lace

[keen compass]

I hate you so much

[fringe comet]

bug yuri supremacy

[pastel timber]

yeah but people like shipping and you can just look the other way

[muted lantern]

lace is closer to an aunt, technically

[whole hawk]

She'll give her enough Silk to replace whatever she had before.

[pastel timber]

someone should ask an interesting silksong lore question that we can talk about

[fringe comet]

yeah and even thats a stretch

[whole hawk]

A Lace of Theseus.

[keen compass]

Rotsry

[rancid dagger]

more voidheart and snail shaman discussion waiter

[fading mountain]

Is Pale King a great ruler?

[pastel timber]

thats hollow knight thats a different channel

[keen compass]

The Pale King is the least evil ruler and thats it

[pastel timber]

thats still hollow knight also im not going back into the voidheart mines

[fading mountain]

I think he is a good ruler

[keen compass]

He still offed like a thousand babies

[edgy nebula]

mottled skarr and why he solos the silksongverse

[muted lantern]

2 million dead babies disagree

[rancid dagger]

honey, it's 5 pm, time for your daily retcon discussion

[fading mountain]

Which he heavily regrets and is ashamed off but have no other choice

[whole hawk]

No really jokes aside, I do wonder what happens to Lace when she gets enough of Hornet's silk. Because her silk is giga wyrm/Eva infused and she binded tons of weavers to her being.

[pastel timber]

actually babies dont have the cognitive skills yet to disagree and even if they did they cant cause theyre dead, checkmate liberal

[keen compass]

I DONT THINK THAT MAKES IT BETTER

[spark valve]

not having a choice does in fact make it better

[fading mountain]

It doesn’t, but if you were in his shoes what would you do?

[keen compass]

YEA I MURDERED THOUSANDS BUT I FEEL BAD BOUT IT SO ITS FIIIINE

[pastel timber]

mega abortion or let your entire kingdom suffer a horrible death call it

[keen compass]

IM NOT SAYIN HE DIDNT HAV A CHOICE

IM JUST SAYIN HE'S STILL SHITTY FOR IT

[pastel timber]

those babies werent hatched yet when they got voided did they really die or did they never get chance to live in the first place

[muted lantern]

i mean it didn't even work

[keen compass]

TRUE

[fading mountain]

It technically did work since Radeonce is dead now

[keen compass]

THAT LOWKEY MAKES IT WORSE

[pastel timber]

that seems unfair considering he didnt have a choice and regretted it deeply for the rest of his life

[pastel timber]

failed successfully

[fading mountain]

Also you can’t just go knock on the door of another higher being, it not that easy. So if you were Pk what would you do honestly

[keen compass]

I meeeeeeeeean, he coulda gave up his kingdom and evacuated insteeeeead

[spark valve]

no he couldn't

[muted lantern]

thats like saying chernobyl worked because someone else averted the disaster

[keen compass]

PK was technically an invader too

[pastel timber]

thats the same as leaving everyone to die to the infection

[keen compass]

He wasn't the 'good guy' technically

[muted lantern]

pk wasnt a monsterous ruler, but to say his actions were the ideal choices is a bit far, he was also not a very good dad

[fading mountain]

I am not saying it justfied the end, I am saying he tried his best and it worked out in the end

[keen compass]

the ends don't justify the means timmy

[pastel timber]

not really, its like saying the chernobyl response worked because even though their first idea didnt work it led to an idea that did (which isnt true i think im just using the analogy)

[fading mountain]

He was very diplomatic

[muted lantern]

pk was shortsighted in thinking he understood the void

[spark valve]

yes they do

[keen compass]

Diplomatic invader

[pastel timber]

pale king morality discourse in my silksong lore channel again take it to #hk-lore i wanna know what we think about the implications of fungal waste mushrooms being planted in pharloom is

[fading mountain]

There is a lot of things, and most bugs hail him as a awesome leader so I digress.

[keen compass]

They hail him as an awesome leader cuz of his pale being brainwashing

[muted lantern]

i do think he wanted what was best for his people, definitely one of the more reasonable of the pale beings, but he was no saint

[keen compass]

he also was a really good politician

[fading mountain]

Lmao, I mean SK basically explained most of the lore in HK that are left quite ambiguous so ot still counts

[keen compass]

but he wanted to dominate and be worshipped 1st n foremost

Protecting his kingdom is just a byproduct of that

He grew heart too late with the hollow knight which killed everyone

[fading mountain]

Yet what can a king do in his situation, if I were the PK I would just give up. But that not a PK thing to do is it?

[keen compass]

Honestly asshole move lol

DUDE FINALLY GROWS A HEART AND IT KILLS EVERY ONE

[fading mountain]

No?? He legit doesn’t care, he just wants the best for his people

[keen compass]

Yeeees

That's how pale beings work

Pale beings want to dominate in some fashion and be worshipped

Hornet says this as a part of her nature she suppresses from her wyrm side

[spark valve]

yes pk wants to dominate that's why he made nonagression treaties with neighbors that's how that works

[keen compass]

Domination doesn't mean violent invasion

Domination takes many forms

[fading mountain]

Well that part is true I guess, but he did go for a less bloodshed way to do it.

[spark valve]

domination is when you don't mess with somebody and they don't mess with you apparently

sure

[keen compass]

Like how White Lady wants to dominate by having so many kids

[fading mountain]

What…

[spark valve]

[fading mountain]

White Lady is freaky tho ngl

[keen compass]

Why else do u think she bound herself?

[pastel timber]

PK rocked up, uplifted some followers, made a kingdom, tried to be the best ruler he could, but some moths betrayed their god THROUGH NO FAULT OF HIS OWN and their god got payback, so he did the only thing he could think of in the situation and regretted it so deeply that he ended up dead

[keen compass]

She bound herself so she wouldn't bang around

That's the literal lore reason for why she is in that state

[muted lantern]

id say pk was a decent king, terrible father

[fading mountain]

Yeah, that makes him a good person!!! Imo

[fading mountain]

Yeah she freaky

[keen compass]

The 3 million ded babies:

[sinful nimbus]

Judging PK off of his parenting skills is weird

[pastel timber]

this is true

[fading mountain]

OMG, just because someone sinned does not mean they are inherently evil 😭

[pastel timber]

he had the best intent, and strove to cause the least possible harm, and thats what counts to me

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels were a sacrifice for the greater good they weren't meant to be children that would be raised

[fading mountain]

Yesss

[pastel timber]

the vessels were hollowed out before they were born they didnt suffer

[rancid dagger]

for real bro had to mass produce kids for his plan and the one kid he raised he did so well that they un-hollowed themselves

[keen compass]

As I said, pale beings strive to dominate wherever they go, its in their nature

[fading mountain]

Free mah boy PK he did nothing wrong!!

[pastel timber]

or at least he didnt think they did, they were supposed to be hollow

[spark valve]

people seem to have a really hard time understanding why this is what's important

[keen compass]

Ooo is it time for the fun theory that 'hollow' doesn't actually exist

[fading mountain]

His plan was flawed in the beginning, none of the vessels were hollow

[keen compass]

and no vessel is actually hollow

[rancid dagger]

obviously but who's gonna tell him that

[pastel timber]

"theory" as if its not the entire point of the first game sob

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really implied

[fading mountain]

True

[keen compass]

Nah its still debated

[spark valve]

so is the earth being flat

[fading mountain]

That the legit reason for why moth girl went on a rampage

[pastel timber]

well the people saying otherwise are just wrong at this point like

[keen compass]

Whether or not hollow vessels actually exist and if the hollow knight was ever hollow in the first place

[muted lantern]

i less judge pk for putting the eggs in the void, but for leaving the millions of void babies to die horribly and alone because he falsely believed they were empty, because he believed he understood the void when he didn't

[limpid summit]

The two vessels we see get tested are both not hollow I mean you can take that as you will but I think the fundamental nature of imprints makes a hollow Vessel impossible

[rancid dagger]

it's pretty point blank that hollow vessels do not exist or at least can't remain hollow

[muted lantern]

like idk maybe my guy could have done a test run beforehand, just like, one egg?

[limpid summit]

Now could PK make a creature that fits his criteria? Maybe but it wouldn’t have the specific qualities needed to seal Radiance like his focus

[spark valve]

it's also like the entire thematic core of the game that the fall was inevitable

[sinful nimbus]

The infection started before the vessels because the vessels were a direct response to the infection

[keen compass]

random unsolved mystery, why tf did the knight leave hallownest

[limpid summit]

You gotta kind of lay it down soft first

[pastel timber]

hes a bad person because hes stupid </3

[rancid dagger]

he didn't believe they were empty they were left in the void because they weren't empty

[pastel timber]

its not really a mystery it just wandered that way, it was only called home when the seal started to fail

[muted lantern]

i mean if you are a god king yeah i think you have the responsibility to understand what you are doing before you start dumping truckloads of fetuses into it

[muted lantern]

thats worse by far

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but that's a trolley problem type deal

[rancid dagger]

they just escaped the abyss by some other route and just went wherever

[keen compass]

I do like that the knight genuinely cares bout hornet tho

[spark valve]

the entire region of bugs getting zombified into violent rage monsters in the background:

[rancid dagger]

it's a sacrifice of barely conscious void children for the survival of the whole kingdom though

[keen compass]

and its no longer just a theory cuz fuck u godhome confirmed the knight cares for hornet

[fading mountain]

Actually, that whole things left in the void was a test for 1 of them to become HK, he didn’t dump all of them down there for fun, he did it as a test.

[keen compass]

But noooo it wasnt enuff evidence

[sinful nimbus]

Where are we getting the idea that there was a test from

[muted lantern]

they werent barely consious when they hatched, they were intelligent enough to be able to understand pks words and climb out most of the way

[rancid dagger]

what

if you mean birthplace memory i just take that as the failed vessels trying to escape before the abyss is sealed since THK was chosen

[fading mountain]

He left his child in the abyss to test them.

[rancid dagger]

not as the climb being a test

[keen compass]

random question but we are in agreement nosk in godhome turnin into hornet is a sign the knight cares greatly for hornet and that it was ever doubted is silly right?

[bronze turret]

Iirc, PK didn't dump them in there, PK and White Lady planted their eggs in the Abyss, hoping that the Void would claim them and hollow out their brood-to-be. Ascending to the top was one of the main criteria to decide whether the child would suit the plan

[fading mountain]

Yep 100%

[limpid summit]

The test was PK foresaw this and picked out the vessel with identical horns

[sinful nimbus]

So true

[rancid dagger]

that would make no sense how do you determine an entity's hollowness based on the ability to climb

[sinful nimbus]

No way its the Nosk vessel

[bronze turret]

It was not about hollowness, it was about strength and resilience

[fading mountain]

No fucking clue

[keen compass]

I love that in silksong that the Knight cares enuff for Hornet it can perform the godly feat of temporarily uniting the void just to save Hornet

[rancid dagger]

except thk wasn't supposed to be "strong" it was supposed to be hollow 😭

[keen compass]

That's some real brotherly love

[fading mountain]

I love the knight he so cute

[pastel timber]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

Physical fitness being important for the vessel is plausible but I don't think its really relevant to the conversation

[fading mountain]

I am sure some degree of strength is needed to contain a literal god

[keen compass]

https://tenor.com/view/morø-indie-game-hollow-knight-journaling-taking-notes-gif-4004858384106137568

[pastel timber]

yes and thats why it was trained to prime form after being chosen for being hollow

[sinful nimbus]

Not really its not like THK was fighting Radiance or anything

Its combat prowess is likely for potential intruders

[bronze turret]

To my understanding, PK needed a vessel to contain the Radiance, which would entail not only a hollow being, but also a vessel resilient and strong enough to contain her. The Five Knights didn't train the Pure Vessel just to pass time.

[keen compass]

My headcanon is that while it was sealed it was using its battle skills to fight the radiance in the dream world to stave off the infection

Hence why it had to be trained

[rancid dagger]

nope the radiance is a being that inhabits dreams, you wouldnt need physical strength for that

[keen compass]

So it could box the radiance

[pastel timber]

i always figured it needed to weaken the radiance to contain it in the first place

[limpid summit]

So that if you somehow killed all 3 Dreamers and broke the chains you’d have to kill PV to get Rad out and it wouldn’t be easy

[rancid dagger]

it wouldnt need to fight anything since the radiance wouldnt be able to exert any control from within it if it didn't have a mind

[keen compass]

MY PLAYTHROUGH DISAGREES

[bronze turret]

You are interpreting this at face-value

[keen compass]

RADIANCE GOT HANDS IN THE DREAM WORLD AND SO DO I

Showed that giant fugly moth what dis nail can do

[sinful nimbus]

Why would THK need to beat Rad up

[keen compass]

To keep it contained

[sinful nimbus]

Why would that do anything

[rancid dagger]

also the fact that strength is not mentioned at all during the birthplace memory that speaks of the qualities that THK theoretically has

[fading mountain]

He was more trained to be discliplined, and in the dream realm you become the best of what you are currently capable of, so yes it also matters your strength in the real and the dream realm

[bronze turret]

Oh my goodness people, it's not about beating Radiance head-on... It's about building resilience.....

[keen compass]

Why does it do anything when we do it?

[rancid dagger]

the climb was not a test and thk did not need to be strong lmao

[sinful nimbus]

We kill Radiance we don't beat her up so that she can keep being contained by THK because that makes no sense

[ionic helm]

So, GMS created the Weavers from the little bugs, they fled to Hallownest to, what, have an heir?

[keen compass]

You can box the Radiance in the dream world

[sinful nimbus]

Not to contain her

[limpid summit]

They fled to escape her

[fading mountain]

Basically

[rancid dagger]

to kill her entirely not to contain her

[keen compass]

Nah, Hornet's mom wanted a heir specifically of higher birth within the caste of hallownest

[limpid summit]

And then they went back? According to HK but who knows in Retcong

[fading mountain]

Woah an actual SS question isntead of PK rant :o

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong discussion in #sk-lore 💔
What has this channel come to

[rancid dagger]

they fled to hallownest because they knew she would eventually escape the seal they put her in

[keen compass]

the weavers as a hole tho didn't specifically flee to hallownest to get a heir

They just fled places in general

[fading mountain]

They were tracked down and forcibly borught back ot pharloom

[bronze turret]

Someone was ranitng about PK's morality in a world where there are many grey areas? In plain 2025?

[rancid dagger]

yeah rather than fleeing to hallownest they just fled from pharloom

[keen compass]

The weavers skedaddled period and some ended up in hallownest

They left some things behind tho

like Eva, the failed higher being experiment

[fading mountain]

wonder how they wouold suceed in making an artifical higher being

[limpid summit]

The Weavers weren’t tracked down in Hallownest

[keen compass]

And they were also studying the void for some reason

[sinful nimbus]

Morally grey characters are propaganda from nerds who care too much about nuance

[fading mountain]

Hornet in question:

[keen compass]

They in fact were

[limpid summit]

They departed of their own accord Weaversong says that

Hornet was the only one from Hallownest who was tracked

[keen compass]

Yes

that we know of

[fading mountain]

send screenshot?

[random harbor]

Charm: Weaversong

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

Summons weaverlings to give the lonely bearer some companionship and protection.

@starpengu used /charms category: L-W charm: Weaversong

[rancid dagger]

they didn't succeed which is why eva is locked in an iron shell

[limpid summit]

“We’ve come to get you”
“Lemme just write this song of farewell”

[fading mountain]

yeah Ik, how the hell do you make an artifical higher being is my question lol

[keen compass]

The Weavers fled Pharloom en masse, some ended up in hallownest, they slowly started being tracked down by GMS' followers

[keen compass]

Ask PK, he technically succeeded if we count The Knight

[rancid dagger]

weavers flee pharloom
weavers do their thing in hallownest
infection happens
weavers think "we'll take our chance with GMS instead"
weavers leave

[keen compass]

Who ascended to become a higher being and was artificial in its making

[rancid dagger]

the knight isn't an artificial higher being though the knight is a child from 2 higher beings

who then unifies the void (or not amirite) under their will

[keen compass]

Wut do we define as artificial here

[keen compass]

it does, thats canon

[fading mountain]

They are not artificial tho, they are literally 2 higher being's children with void infused

[rancid dagger]

whatever definition you want to give im telling you a natural born child from 2 higher beings is not artificial 😭

[bronze turret]

This was open for interpretation in the lore, the game doesn't leave much in the way of hints or evidence to explain the process. Neither Hollow Knight or Silkson delved too much into Hard Fantasy, only enough to make the essential coherent and the world-building rich

[fading mountain]

something like Lace would be artificial I guess IDK

[keen compass]

Lace is an artificial child

[limpid summit]

PK “created” a higher being by giving birth to TK if you want to be like semantic about it sure

[rancid dagger]

im not going back into voidheart discussion or i might get rage baited again

[keen compass]

Silksong act 3 ending

[rancid dagger]

yeah because lace is made of silk not out of white lady freakyness

[keen compass]

The Knight unites the void no matter what, that's canon

There's no arguing that one lol

[rancid dagger]

(im getting rage baited) silksong act 3 ending literally shows the void not being unified under the knight's will

it attacks the tendrils for god's sake

[keen compass]

It quite LITERALLY does

It stops the tendrils' advance then the tendrils no longer advance and the void completely stills

[sinful nimbus]

"It unites a portion of the void under its will and needs to beat the rest of the void into submission" isn't quite as catchy

[rancid dagger]

that's the last message i'll give on this i gotta study

[sinful nimbus]

Waiter! Waiter! More retcons please

[keen compass]

We then see the void god who is a sign of a unified void

[fading mountain]

Void given form : the knight
Void given focus: the Shae Lord

[keen compass]

And then the knight dumps hornet carefully on the platform

[rancid dagger]

the unified void that needs to attack itself to stop itself from attacking someone else
great unity

[keen compass]

Thank u

[limpid summit]

We don’t know if TK actually needed to attack the tendrils but probably not it’s not different void
It was just for the SL callback and aura

[rancid dagger]

so either bad writing retcon or awful writing aura farm 🔥

[keen compass]

my guy, the void was mid atk, and Knight intervenes, halts it, and then there is no further atk after that cuz its focused

[spark valve]

they're both the knight

[teal drift]

Radiance is a god of dreams but does not create or control all dreams or stop external dreams from happening. Presumably the same deal with the jnight.

[bronze turret]

My guess is that Eva was an attempt at trying to artificially recreate a new Higher Being the Weavers could follow, one that was more compliant, but mine is a very loose interpretation based on religious myths involving gods.

[sinful nimbus]

We are NOT going to take the aura farming theory seriously 💔

[spark valve]

it's the best handwave available

[rancid dagger]

go punch a wall and im telling you with 100% certainty you can stop mid punch without cutting your arm off

[fading mountain]

But without the Knight Shade Lord isn't focused

[limpid summit]

It’s a logical explanation for TC’s aura hype moments act 3 honestly

[teal drift]

I also think i agree with it. They were trying to mimmick her.

[limpid summit]

Anyway TK is still like a kid

[keen compass]

That is not the same thing and u know it lmfao

[rancid dagger]

it's the opposite of logical 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

"Team Cherry can't write" is more to the point

[teal drift]

TK age discourse

Imo it doesnt control all void but if it wills it, it can stop it. Thus it had to break tendrils at first but then it was chill

[fading mountain]

Hornet is a child

[limpid summit]

It does take some time for TK to manipulate void as we see in the Rad fight, there’s a gap between Rad being stunned and the void rising up
Maybe a better explanation is that TK wasn’t sure if it could stop the void in time and just decided to destroy it

[keen compass]

People seem to be incapable of remembering basic descriptions like 'void given focus'

[teal drift]

Is TK x Lace problematic?

[limpid summit]

Uh

[bronze turret]

I think it's better not to bring shipping into the table.

[fading mountain]

no, Hornet X Lace supremact

[limpid summit]

TK is in the body of a child and so is Lace

[rancid dagger]

bro is acting like void given form and focus are different degrees of control over the void
both are the void unified under a single will it's literally void heart's only job

[keen compass]

dude what?...

[sinful nimbus]

TK isn't a child Lace is

[spark valve]

except lace has the mind of a child tk may not

[keen compass]

My guy, the act 3 ending of silksong shows that the knight enacts full control over the void to save Hornet

[teal drift]

Thats the average brainrot discussion on this channel if yall havent witnessed it.

[limpid summit]

Hey look chill on Hornet slabflies

[keen compass]

If it wasn't full control, it'd have to keep fighting off the void around hornet but it doesn't

[fading mountain]

HORNET X LACE

[sinful nimbus]

Frankly the only good ships atm are Emilitia x Soul Master and Eva x Mask Maker x Mask Maker

[teal drift]

Lace age and Lace et discourse ruins this place I was making a joke abt ut.

[sinful nimbus]

Also Midwife x Willoh

[rancid dagger]

"full control" it literally attacks the tendrils bro

[limpid summit]

Bro jus typing shit 💔

[bronze turret]

Isn't that the consensus, though? The concept itself takes a lot from common fantasy tropes of power scale in which the more powerful the character is, the easier they control something, doesn't sound strange at all.

[rancid dagger]

if it had full control the tendrils would just stop

[keen compass]

Did you not watch the full scene?

[fading mountain]

Aura farms before IT saves IT's sister

[teal drift]

Yall should disengage from this void discourse its brick wall vs brick wall

[sinful nimbus]

Why does it need to attack the tendrils it is in full control of

[keen compass]

The tendrils were in full advance and just cutting them down is faster/easier presumably for the knight

[limber anvil]

are 3 of these cut? [for the 3rd image Im talking about the tiny fish and the bottom red and white one]

[sinful nimbus]

"Both sides are bad" 💔

[spark valve]

for fun same reason it does godseeker mode

[limpid summit]

It does take some time for TK to manipulate void as we see in the Rad fight, there’s a gap between Rad being stunned and the void rising up
Maybe a better explanation is that TK wasn’t sure if it could stop the void in time and just decided to destroy it

[keen compass]

because it wasnt in control yet

[teal drift]

I generally agree that it has to chose to exert control but when it choses to it has near full control

[rancid dagger]

im not getting rage baited im not getting rage baited im not getting rage baited

[fading mountain]

It doesn't, if he needed to do that then we would see him fending off all the tendrils, but he only cut off some

[limpid summit]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Are we seriously going to posit The Knight just felt like being dramatic

[rancid dagger]

"it wasnt in control yet" im sobbing

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't seem like the intent if I'm being honest

[keen compass]

IT LITERALLY WASNT, WUT?

[limber anvil]

so all 3 are cut content and unused?

[fading mountain]

It like having full control over void in a range limit, cant control every void

[keen compass]

you have to be rage baiting lol

If you just WATCH the cutscene, the Knight clearly isn't in control of the void 24/7 fully

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know why you'd posit that's due to there being a delay for controlling the void

[keen compass]

If it was, the void wouldn't be such a threat to Hornet

[limpid summit]

TK can’t just control all void at will without fail else the second Rad’s halo breaks in the first phase she would die

It still takes effort for TK to control void, it wraps only 2 tentacles around Rad

[fringe comet]

yeah TK has control over void but that doesnt mean it controls all void

[keen compass]

There's a clear WINDUP to focusing the writhing masse of consciousness and hunger that is the void

[limpid summit]

So stopping speeding tendrils short would likely be difficult

[rancid dagger]

yeah they should update voidheart's description
"unifies the void but only sometimes and only some void and only after a windup because"

[keen compass]

exactly

[limpid summit]

It’s that or aura

[sinful nimbus]

Rad gets away in Phase 2 because her light halo comes back

[keen compass]

its just basic common sense bssed on the cutscene lol

[sinful nimbus]

She needed to be beat more

[fading mountain]

IT technically isnt wrong tho, it still unifies it

[limpid summit]

Yeah but why didn’t TK just overwhelm her with void before that happened lol

[keen compass]

Someone didnt pay attention to Hollow Knight 1

[barren beacon]

The "TK was just aurafarming" Theory still being alive this late is actually amazing.

[keen compass]

The Void isn't a singular entity

[rancid dagger]

you mean the game in which void heart actually works properly?

[fringe comet]

pretty funny though
and another point against hollow theory if true

[keen compass]

The Void is a BUNCH of entities

[fading mountain]

I mean, I would if I literally have THE VOID under my control

[keen compass]

Like millions

[rancid dagger]

unified under the will of the void heart's wielder 😭

[keen compass]

The Knight can temporarily focus and unite them for a purpose

[sinful nimbus]

Its a 1 second delay from Rad touching the ground to the void tendrils grabbing her, it seems pretty absurd to extrapolate any lore meaning from that

[limpid summit]

There’s two possibilities:
TK can control void but it’s not completely instantaneous it still needs reaction time and it couldn’t stop the tendrils quick enough (makes sense)
TC wanted to aura farm -> TK wanted to aura farm (eh)

[keen compass]

Its clearly not a PERMANENT unification because of obvious act 3 is obvious

[muted lantern]

my assumption is the void tendrils are just a natural function like a digestive tract, they act automatically, the knight didn't notice hornets presence because the flower was protecting her, hence them only coming by when the flower ran out

[bronze turret]

Because it's a purely cinematographic display. I don't think it has deep lore implications other than looking like a visual spectacle as each phase changes

[keen compass]

That's actually a really solid theory

[fading mountain]

I am sure pale beings have there way of fending off void, they are not the kryptonite to pale beings ya know

[barren beacon]

It's obviously not the latter, but imagine...

[fading mountain]

likeGrandmother Silk, she can hold off the void

[keen compass]

New theory on that

You guys think Hornet never needed the everbloom?

[limpid summit]

Then TK is aura farming

[keen compass]

If she had just committed to jumping in without it, would the Knight just save her?

[fringe comet]

yes she obviously did

[rancid dagger]

why dont you try jumping into the void without it and see what happens

[fringe comet]

the void tendrils kill her ingame if you jump into them before everbloom

[rancid dagger]

you get beat up

[keen compass]

Ok but, hear me out, what if the everbloom was keeping the knight from seeing hornet

[spark valve]

no it would've just shredded her immediately

[fading mountain]

not sure, it seems that the knight need to be presence to control the void, if that the case and if the knight isnt there, Hornet is dead as hell

[limpid summit]

The knight probably isn’t completely attuned to all void without trying

[keen compass]

yea but that can interpreted as gameplay mechanics not lore mechanics, which is a line that is difficult to navigate

[fringe comet]

yeah i hear you, but look at what is shown ingame

[barren beacon]

Actually that's another question of Mine. Does the Knight only take control of Pharloom's void AFTER Lost lace is defeated? Why or how did it even know Hornet needed saving?

[fringe comet]

the tendrils kill her in gameplay and almost kill her in cutscene

[keen compass]

That's what I'm thinking

[rancid dagger]

tendrils still try to grab hornet when descending

[limpid summit]

Imagine the void as an extension of TK, like extra limbs
Sometimes your limbs move involuntarily and you have to notice and concentrate to direct them how you want it to go

[sinful nimbus]

All this because the Everbloom is the weakest light in the HK universe 🥀

[keen compass]

That the everbloom just prevents the knight from picking up on Hornet

[bronze turret]

The only explanation that makes some sense to me is that Ghost possesses a certain expanse of power over the Void, but not all of it is willing to obey the half-pale being.

[rancid dagger]

yeah but noticing and concentrating doesnt mean you need to slap them away

[keen compass]

Then when its JUST hornet, the knight can 'see' her

[fringe comet]

TK having control over void isnt the same as TK being all the void

[limpid summit]

So what’s the alternative proposal

[keen compass]

Its the clear when the knight notices hornet the void will just completely chill tf out for her

[limpid summit]

Cause Pharloom void isn’t different

[barren beacon]

Wonder how many times this sentence has been spoken thus far

[rancid dagger]

voidheart being retconned and not being total void unification

[fringe comet]

ik ive said it twice

[limpid summit]

That’s ridiculous

[rancid dagger]

or the awful bad aura farming theory

[limber anvil]

Is this enemy cut?

[limpid summit]

Yes

[spark valve]

‘such unity in a single being’

[fading mountain]

This is a hell fire of a lore channel ngl

[bronze turret]

Huh. The Everbloom obfuscating Hornet's presence sounds like a plausible idea. As in, Ghost is aware there is a "disturbance in the force", but not quite perceive who is causing it.

[fringe comet]

right but ofc TK isnt conciously all void at once otherwise it wouldnt need to destroy the tendrils that attacked hornet

[limpid summit]

TK unifies the void under its will
That does not mean all void is directly under its control without limits or effort from TK
It just means that TK can manipulate any and all void whenever it wants

[fading mountain]

It feels more like the Knight becomes the Lord of Shade, AKA the lord of the void, AKA the void is it subject, AKA his presence is required to control the void

[keen compass]

The explanation is the same as it was in hk1, the void is a masse of consciousnesses, millions, and it needs focus which is given by the voidheart + TK. However obviously trying to tell a million people to move an arm isnt gonna be instant as shown in the two void related endings in HK1, its a wind up then an explosion

Because directing a million people to do a thing is hard

especially when those million people just want to consume consume consume

[rancid dagger]

yes that interpretation is fine
still doesnt account for it having to attack the tendrils instead of stopping them

[keen compass]

The Knight is like a conductor

Not an all encompassing unifier

[spark valve]

Ultimately it’s not like it matters why it did that

[limpid summit]

You know when you’re at the doctor’s office and your leg kicks up and you see it and stop it

[keen compass]

This right here

[fading mountain]

In all honesty, him attacking the tendril could just be that, attacking it would be easier than outright stopping it. It certainly seems like he can control void though, since when he arrived every void tendril became calm

[keen compass]

The void operates 99% of the time on instinct

[limpid summit]

It’s a reflex of the void to attack TK didn’t calm it fully it just can control it at will

[keen compass]

The 1% is the knight doing its thing

how are we still havin this talk in 2025

[rancid dagger]

you dont punch it to stop it that's for sure

[fading mountain]

EXACTLY

[keen compass]

He's just rage baiting now lol

[bronze turret]

It's more visually impactful from a visual narrative standpoint, I would think. We gotta remember the game is also a project where the devs want to have fun, and they do enjoy some visual tropes purely out of the emotional impact it causes rather than trying to commit so rigidly to Hard Fantasy.

[muted lantern]

I think the assumption that tc doesn't think about these things at all when retconning them (or not, i don't really see the voidheart stuff as a real retcon, we are interperting one or two vague lines of dialogue from the first game) is lazy analysis generally, does the devs a disservice and comes off as people assuming they understand the plot better than the devs themselves.

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing in the ending called for an action scene, its a character focused ending

[fading mountain]

TK can control void, void is an entity of itself, he attacked the tendril cuz hec ant just nilly willy tell vod what to do, end of discussion

[rancid dagger]

the tendrils point blank stopping and the knight appearing there would still be as visually impactful

[sinful nimbus]

Its unnecessary fanservice like all of Act 3 💔

[keen compass]

two rage baiters lol

[silver spire]

rage baiting in lore chat is crazy work

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone who holds a negative opinion is ragebaiting

[rancid dagger]

you just have shitty comprehension that's all but dont worry

[keen compass]

Calling act 3 fanservice is crazy lol

[barren beacon]

I think it's more that star actively despises Act 3

[long tapir]

why are we so bitter???

[sinful nimbus]

If Act 3 has 0 haters I am dead 🗣️

[limpid summit]

Act 3 is fanservice whether you like it not
I do really like parts of it

[fringe comet]

well... it has fanservice in it, i dont think that detracts from the quality of it or encompasses everything that it is

[silver spire]

i mean, act 3 is fanservice, but it's made in such a way that it expands on the world, characters, etc.

[long tapir]

people just wanna be a part of a community i understand but hating on a whole act of the game is kinda wild

[fading mountain]

Act 3 is both fan service and DEEP lore dive

[keen compass]

Sweetheart, you got multiple people explaining canonical HK1 lore to you plus basic reasoning on the scene itself, and you are failing to comprehend

[limpid summit]

All HK endings that lead into SS wrapped up TK’s story bringing TK back isn’t the shittiest thing ever but yes it’s fanservice

[sinful nimbus]

If it expanded the world it would bother adding new things instead of rehashing multiple elements from Hollow Knight

[muted lantern]

act 3 is defo fanservice, i don't think thats inherently a bad thing. the biggest issue with act 3 is it relies too much on mcguffins

[sinful nimbus]

Snail Shamans, Delicate Flower, Void, Lifeblood, Isma's species, etc

[keen compass]

Callin it just fanservice tho is such a showing of lack of understanding and unnecessary spite tho

[rancid dagger]

all of them failing to account for the literal cutscene that we are talking about except on the account of it being "impactful" or "aura farming"

[bronze turret]

Not if we consider that the watcher could be purposefully led to think the slash attacks are the tendrils attacking Hornet instead, rather than something attacking the tendrils. It's a very brief but effective Red Herring

[cedar inlet]

who is mr mushroom

[rancid dagger]

which is why im mentioning the fact that it had to attack the tendrils every single time, because you are just ignoring it lmao

[limpid summit]

Lack of understanding and spite? I really enjoyed act 3 I just understand enough about HK to recognize common threads

[keen compass]

Ima send you a book on how to read

[sinful nimbus]

He shows up when an age is about to end

[fringe comet]

herald of change

[limpid summit]

“Get these three things in order to travel into your memory and defeat the void”

[rancid dagger]

want me to teach you how to read it or what

[keen compass]

referring to the other guy's post

[silver spire]

so? why would bringing back elements that we ALREADY NEEDED CLARIFICATION ON and make sense in context of the lore be a bad thing

[fading mountain]

What even is this discussion anymore, what are we talking about? Are we still on the topic that TK can't control void or something?

[muted lantern]

serious beef happening in lore chat

[limpid summit]

Star is entitled to her (not invalid) opinion

[fringe comet]

people are gettin heated here

[long tapir]

right? what is the genuine point of complaining.

[sinful nimbus]

The only thing we needed clarification on was Delicate Flower and they botched it

[keen compass]

My guy, you struggle to understand why The Knight would just attack the tendrils because you don't even understand how the void works lol

[rancid dagger]

we see the tendrils snapping in half

[sinful nimbus]

"First light" stfu 🥱

[long tapir]

so you know everything abt snail shamans pre ss??

[fringe comet]

you do you, star

[rancid dagger]

sure bro

[long tapir]

why are you so rude and bitter @sinful nimbus this is literally just lore

[muted lantern]

peeps are welcome to dislike act 3, i like it, don't think the writing is inherently bad, the mcguffin issue is the most problematic part

[keen compass]

Local man doesn't understand the void is operating on 99% instinct

[sinful nimbus]

The only new information about the snail shamans in Silksong is that they like void usage which is... a retcon

[fringe comet]

star is unhappy about at 3 and has decided to let it out in the lore chat

[spark valve]

zero self awareness

[fading mountain]

What Mcguffin issue?

[keen compass]

I wouldn't call it a mcguffin

Nowhere close actually lol

[muted lantern]

talking the three hearts, not the flower

[silver spire]

no no, its a valid statement

[long tapir]

??? you are literally ragebaiting

[keen compass]

Its a mirroring of the dreamers from HK1, its thematic and makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

I don't mean to be rude to any individual, I'm just making fun of the game itself and maybe some of the arguments presented in its favour

[limpid summit]

The dreamers didn’t need a mirror though

Like really

[silver spire]

so it's... RAGEBAIT?!?!?! xd

[rancid dagger]

she's unhappy because it botches pretty big parts of the lore
pretty reasonable stance to have, even if i really enjoyed act 3 i can see how it's very bad from a lore perspective

[bronze turret]

In the heat of the moment, not every player does. It only clicks when they see Hornet in the following frame.

[keen compass]

You need to basically dream nail 3 people for their power to pull a thing from memory

[sinful nimbus]

The "Go gather 3 of X item" formula is mostly gameplay

[limpid summit]

The heart bosses are some of the best parts of the game story wise like why do we do all that??? I dunno

The hearts power the spell

[fringe comet]

thats a fine opinion to have, even though i disagree with it strongly, i just dont see the point of venting about it here instead of #sk-discussion

[spark valve]

to get Magic Juice™ for the Spell™

[rancid dagger]

are you trying to argue that you just didnt understand the cutscene or what

[muted lantern]

i mean we already got the three songs, which is much more like the dreamers and doesnt end up being a mcguffin because the power of song is made incredibly important in this game, while harvesting peoples hearts kinda feels like it came out of left field

[silver spire]

but seriously though, i dont like it when ppl present (bad) arguments

[sinful nimbus]

Well this is the story channel

[rancid dagger]

because the reason she dislikes act 3 is because of the lore lmao

[fading mountain]

The three hearts thing imo are just sacrifices needed to draw up something powerful from a memory. I mean it wouldnt make sense if the snail shamans can just conjure up a godly tool for free

[keen compass]

I disagree, its a follow up on the haunting, what it means and what it did

[sinful nimbus]

Well its mid gameplay wise too but we don't talk about that....

[limpid summit]

“Let’s all go go into the Abyss to study Void and not tell ancestral mound shaman”

[silver spire]

the snail shamans dont have enough power

[fringe comet]

like i said, you do you, i dont care if you like it or not

[keen compass]

The Haunting comes when the will gives out, like the infection in HK1

Bugs can resist so long as they have purpose and will

Gathering these 3 hearts is a signifying of giving these bugs who had their purpose or kingdoms ruined/taken by the citadel and giving them the ability at last to get their get back

[sinful nimbus]

The hearts are all about learning about the region's past which is a solid theme, it just comes out of left field

[limpid summit]

The Craws 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[keen compass]

I think thematically it works and is a sensible way to mirror the dreamer stuff

[sinful nimbus]

HK also already did the confronting the past thing and I was hoping they wouldn't retread old ground

[fringe comet]

we talkin craws?

[keen compass]

left field? most of the game is learning about wtf happened here

[fading mountain]

Ah this is too much, I would rather discuss what the daily life of Hornet And THK looks like before she got kidnapped. Big reunion and I want to see more happy funny family comics if the bugs were just a normal family

[sinful nimbus]

No the previous tribes of Pharloom are not relevant like at all, even to the main story

[keen compass]

Hollow Knight does it for game 1 and game 2, people complain
Dark Souls, Elden Ring, Bloodborne, Sekiro, and so on do it and its a masterpiece

[bronze turret]

I'm speaking from the common reaction videos I've seen, and my experience analyzing audience reaction due to the game dev college years I've attended. Sometimes, when the watcher is caught up in the emotions elicited by a certain scene, some details are lost to them, and they don't realize what's just happened unless they see it a second time, have it pointed out at them, or the following shot helps it click.

[keen compass]

....dude what, they literally are

[long tapir]

poor ze mer is running out

[sinful nimbus]

None of those games are masterpieces

[rancid dagger]

yeah but i still dont understand how this is relevant, we are not talking about what anyone saw in the cutscene we are talking about what was there

[bronze turret]

Oh, and the fact I'm 35yo, so I've seen this happen often with people watching movies

[keen compass]

Saying the tribes don't matter is like saying the moths and the hive don't matter in HK lol

[keen compass]

I'm getting rage baited

[fading mountain]

The void when they see all those flowers after the EtV ending no flower variant:

[sinful nimbus]

I am the first person to not like Fromsoft games yes

[long tapir]

uhhh maybe not to you
but to a lot of people the opposite is true

[sinful nimbus]

Except for my beloved Armored Core 6

[muted lantern]

theres like millions of people who don't like them

[keen compass]

not liking is not the same as denying the games are masterpieces

[bronze turret]

You implied something that isn't at all true about my arguments' motivations, I just debated back.

[muted lantern]

masterpiece is subjective, it's hard to give that title to something you don't like

[sinful nimbus]

"Masterpiece" is a subjective term

[rancid dagger]

yeah because your argument wasn't about what we were talking about rather what people could miss out in the cutscene

[keen compass]

It is, but quality is also subjective yet we have a general consensus on what that means. Elden Ring for example is extremely high quality

[sinful nimbus]

This is like saying there's a general consensus on which ice cream is best

[edgy nebula]

silksong is great and imo is far better than hk in terms of gameplay and sense of what the fanbase wants, but the story leaves some to be desired, atleast imo

[sinful nimbus]

It means nothing

[limpid summit]

This but Bretta lost her mind in the wastes and Nymm is still Brumm ❤️

[keen compass]

it is not

That's a false equivalence

[muted lantern]

i agree i think the game is a masterpiece, most fromsofts games included, but i understand that some wouldn't, people think gta six is a masterpiece but i think that game is cringe and wouldn't call it one

[sinful nimbus]

How so

[muted lantern]

this is also a stupid debate to have in the lore chat

[keen compass]

There's a general consensus on what makes a skilled/quality piece of art

[sinful nimbus]

Which is...

[muted lantern]

we shouldn't be debating whether art is objectively good or not considering the nature of art

[sinful nimbus]

Actually it doesn't really matter because its still subjective

[sinful nimbus]

I will never turn down the chance to hate on Fromsoft

[muted lantern]

i hard disagree but you do you boss

[long tapir]

some stuff is just hate mob

[muted lantern]

i also love blighttown

and bilewater is a good area

[sinful nimbus]

This is agreeable

[fading mountain]

Also this is peak

[sinful nimbus]

Not blighttown

[keen compass]

Putrid ducts is not, fight me

[rancid dagger]

7% of people who played elden ring on pc do not recommend it on ground of bad camera movement, awful slow pace and unengaging story wise, you can say most people liked it but you cant really have objectivity when talking about a piece of media being more or less enjoyable

[edgy nebula]

putrified ducts is pushing it

[muted lantern]

ducts is mid, doesnt have anything going on, some neat creatures, fun half life reference, thats it

[keen compass]

Local man still can't fuckin read lmfao

[long tapir]

the sucky enemies are peak tho

[bronze turret]

We were discussing about the impactfulness of the scene. You argumented that having the tendrils retreating would be just as impactful. I disagreed, and stated why the slashes were more effective in eliciting an emotional reaction out of the watcher. You said we can see the tendrils be slashed, I disagreed and argumented again. And this is where you tried to invalidate my argument with an offensive implication, to which I had to defend myself. Simple as that.

[long tapir]

7% isnt objectivity...

[teal finch]

days since last meta argument about act 3

[silver spire]

well, it's objective to an extent. you can "hate" or "dislike" something, but generally within the field of art, there are certain individual metrics such as, for example music, pacing and flow, as well as it's harmonical structure that create a rubric to which you can judge it

[sinful nimbus]

Neither is 93%

[sinful nimbus]

Quality is subjective

[rancid dagger]

exactly because you cant have objectivity in game quality discussion

[fringe comet]

are you just posting random fanart?

[lethal burrow]

fine, just say subjective consensus majority then

[muted lantern]

I don't believe theres any such thing as objectively good or bad art, i think it reduces the medium to say there is.

[sinful nimbus]

Good music, pacing, and flow is all subjective too

[rancid dagger]

just like loads of people think silksong act 3 is goated and many people think act 3 is the worst part of the game

[fading mountain]

Random comics that I find more enjoyable than arguing over SS lore

[sinful nimbus]

"Good" and "Bad" in regards to art is subjective

[bronze turret]

Chilli, this is the stuff for the #hk-art-gallery channel.

[sinful nimbus]

inb4 elitist music theory crap

[keen compass]

that doesn't mean its not high quality though lmfao

[fringe comet]

fair, ive jsut started lurking

[rancid dagger]

art is literally the one field in which there pretty much is no objectivity

[muted lantern]

can i restate again this is a good topic, but not for this chat, so can we go back to lore

[fading mountain]

:(

[silver spire]

but you can say something is good or bad and back it up with objective metrics

[lethal burrow]

right, which is why you take the opportunity to spread as much hate as possible

[sinful nimbus]

It is my calling

[keen compass]

we tried lore but the local rage baitin illiterate man can't comprehend how the void works

[lethal burrow]

any objective statement is based off of subjective qualifications or criteria anyways

[rancid dagger]

you are right, it's low quality since it consists of doubling enemies' health and damage and retconning lore, but you still enjoy it