sk-lore

[main osprey]

And so would want to wake her from her slumber the Weavers put her in

[azure wave]

lace seemed to do whatever she wanted

[pastel timber]

i mean silk is said to be "spun from soul" which makes it sound like it is just another form of soul

[edgy barn]

Silk is Soul spun into a thread

[azure wave]

and she disliked her mother for creating her and phantom

[polar latch]

ohhhh alright

[proud swan]

Hey errbody whats up

[main osprey]

What's so bad about GMS waking up?

[polar latch]

i mean i assume mundane silk exists too, but its probably referred to as just thread

[proud swan]

Are silking our song right now

[main osprey]

Theres no more living weavers in Pharloom anymore

[zinc pivot]

Spreading her silk string and puppetting pharloom

[pastel timber]

"a beasts nature bared to all" shes gonna kill everyone in a tantrum or something

[edgy barn]

If GMS wakes up she's going to enslave everyone harder than she already is

[rain gate]

late to the aknid discussion but squits are also shared between kingdoms

[polar latch]

GMS could bare her beasts nature to me any time...

[main osprey]

Why would she enslave them?

[pastel timber]

TRUE

[main osprey]

I thought the Haunting, like the infection, was a by-product of her trying to wake up/be remembered?

[edgy barn]

Because she wants them to worship her

[azure wave]

so is GMS asleep during the events of silksong or is she awake but in her cocoon? because her entry is pretty confusing and it makes it feel like she fully woke up after hornet challenged her...somehow...

[polar latch]

TRUE I FORGOT TO MENTION THIS BUT YOURE RIGHT!!! i wonder if theyre also related? if i knew anything about actual evolutionary trees id make one...

[pastel timber]

cause thats what pale beings do, they all couped her shes pissed as fuck and wants her kingdom back one way or another

[rain gate]

the haunting is her trying to turn pharloom into a hive mind that worships her

[proud swan]

to me they are different, but that shouldn't be the equivalence. Silkflies are the lumaflies of Pharloom, gleamflies are a whole different thing (the only place they're ever mentioned is on the small lights)

[edgy barn]

...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...

...They are ours... Bound forever...

(GMS during the unravelled silk heart secuence)

[rain gate]

i mean theyre both called squits and have pointy probosci

[main osprey]

So why didn't she do that from the outset

[pastel timber]

the word "silkfly" is not in the game script at all though

[polar latch]

oh sorry i meant i wonder if theyre related to the aknids, aspids, and vengeflies lol

[main osprey]

Why go though all the trouble to raise up weavers, and not just enslave everyone

[rain gate]

ohhh

[proud swan]

Its mentioned inside game files. Imma look that up

[pastel timber]

filenames are to be treated similarly to cut content, its not gospel, in-game names are inconsistent with file names all of the time

[edgy barn]

Playing "nice" (we don't know how the weavers were treated) did not work, time to go for the drastic measures. Also, GMS needs the haunting to get the citadel bugs to capture weavers for her

[polar latch]

her name has Mother in it, maybe she has some primal desire to be a mother? she sees the weavers as her daughters, but she doesnt have true instincts like a mortal would, so she's twisted in her execution of this. we know she cares about lace, so maybe she's gone through character development in her sleep lol

[proud swan]

Oh yes I'm 100% with you. It's just if these aren't gleamflies we have absolutely no name for them, and calling them silk flies is not so bad since TC once called them that

[pastel timber]

same reason radiance started with the moth tribe instead of just going full infection, she wasnt pissed before and she is now

[pastel timber]

ahh i get what youre saying

[main osprey]

But Radiance isn't the "Bad Guy" though right? I thought the infection was unintentional because the PK locked her away

[zinc pivot]

It’s the similarity not the exact nature of things

[rain gate]

the moths abandoned rad of their own free will, the infection is a result of her trying to gain relevance again by invading peoples dreams

[proud swan]

Nah PK locked her away because of the infection

[main osprey]

Why would she want more weavers?

[edgy barn]

The infection is intentional, Radiance speaks to myla in her head telling her to kill the Knight.

[polar latch]

i wonder what hallownest would look like if the radiance was never locked away and she got her way... i wonder if the infection would be as gruesome? or would it be more of just a hivemind

[zinc pivot]

Radiance was forgotten before she enacted the infection

[pastel timber]

radiance is more treated as a force of nature, good and bad isnt really applied, something something radiance is the inevitable dawn, but we can tell that the infection was a result of her rage of being betrayed, whether intentional or not isnt directly stated, but shes certainly taking advantage of it given dream nail dialogue

[proud swan]

Silk is very valuable I guess

[rain gate]

probablty everywhere would end up like infected crossroads

[edgy barn]

There's no confirmed reason but my interpretation is that she is consuming the captured weavers to regain her lost strength

[polar latch]

i feel like a lot of the more gruesome elements of the infection come from the radiance's rage at being forgotten and locked away

[zinc pivot]

Idk, maybe hallownest would actually have a nice sun and a beach resort

[shut harness]

what was the mushroom ending supposed to be about?

[polar latch]

so if she was never forgotten, it would be more like how the moth tribe was, just on a larger scale

[rain gate]

if you mean mr mushroom hes an enigma
hes probably travelling to the next major event

[proud swan]

Well, yes, but she was locked up because of the infection. It wasnt a byproduct of her being locked up. Just happened after

[zinc pivot]

As in the moths actually bother to be loyal to the god who asked for nothing but worship

[pastel timber]

mr mushroom witnesses the ending of ages throughout kingdoms
the mushroom ending means hes travelling to a new kingdom to witness the end of another age
the "to be continued" implies hes travelling to a hypothetical third game thats about to get its shit rocked

[craggy smelt]

lets you know that
Mister Mushroom Will Return...

[main osprey]

So the Radiance is actually a physical being, it's not like being forgotten kills her

[polar latch]

i wonder if mr mushroom will be present in all TC games or just future HK content

[proud swan]

that old bubblehead is saying IMMA BE BACK BITCHES and thats it

[shut harness]

oh sht hes jsut an observer

[pastel timber]

well, she seems to exist entirely in the dream realm as far as we're aware, being forgotten from that probably would kill you

[main osprey]

I always thought that if she was truly forgotten she'd die, and the infection is her last grasp at preventing her from dying

[pastel timber]

seer's dialogue directly implies the only reason she was able to "return" in the way she did was because at least one person remembered her despite it all

[proud swan]

truth is, Mr Mushroom is just Team Cherry. He was a character of another game and hes there only to be an observer. You heard it here frist

[polar latch]

do we think the surface village is actually on the surface or just on the top of pharloom, and still underground

[pastel timber]

mr mushroom and the little bomey twitter account speak the same theyre the same person

[shut harness]

Mr Mushroom = Eric Barone

[polar latch]

okay this is crazy i love it

[zinc pivot]

Hard to tell if HK planet is happening entirely underground

[main osprey]

I wonder if you fully devoted yourself to the Radiance whether you would keep being infected

[edgy barn]

Ask the moss prophet

[pastel timber]

i think given its called surface we just kind of have to take that at surface level (ba dum tss), could be in the hk world theres no sun in the sky and thats why civilisations and life are formed around powerful beings described as "lights" instead, thatd explain the hotspots of life between the vast endless wasteland

[main osprey]

Sorry this is HK not SS lore

[polar latch]

i mean there has to be an actual surface, right? it cant just be infinite caves? i remember theorizing that the dream realm was the "surface" since the radiance is the sun and all

[pastel timber]

moss prophet gets infected but seer doesnt so it has mixed results

[polar latch]

oh thats peak tbh

[proud swan]

Can you imagine mr mushroom saying this

it would be epic

[shut harness]

so the Knight helped Hornet ou duriong the true ending, right? So is he still "alive"? I forgot about the true ending of HK

[polar latch]

i think its a matter of force of will? moss prophet seems to have had a weak will, whereas seer has Old Lady Power

[pastel timber]

mr mushroom hiding in the back of the steel city masters room:

[desert cloak]

bro the whiteward cylinder audio is so FUCKED

[pastel timber]

yeah the mantis tribe could stave off the infection by sheer willpower some things are built different

[polar latch]

knight is not a he but yes youre right! its still alive and seemingly took over at least part of the void

[proud swan]

I mean he seems to be alive, he is just connected to the void.

[polar latch]

i really like the mantis tribe just being so Like That that they dont get infected

[proud swan]

He was void in the first place so its not like he loses his nature somehow

[edgy barn]

Seer isn't worshipping the Radiance. She is actively and knowingly helping the bug aiming to defeat her

[pastel timber]

yeah the knight survives every ending of hk, just in different states
thk/ss -> locked in black egg temple
dnm -> shade returns to the abyss
etv -> becomes shade lord
etv flower ending -> explodes (dies?)

[shut harness]

so the Knight is the only "good" part of the Void?

[proud swan]

Void is just chaotic, I guess. Not bad or good. More like electricity

[zinc pivot]

Gods will wilt and steel will rust
But Mister Mushroom readjusts

[pastel timber]

void is a force of nature, it seeks out and consumes soul, the knight (and by extension the shade lord slash other siblings) have a mind, affection for hornet, and so save her from death

[proud swan]

But TK is able to control at least part of the void and unite it under his will, so True Ending proves hes still our little fella

[polar latch]

i still like the idea that the reason lifeblood takes over the wormways in pharloom is because the abyss creature isnt there. My theory is that the abyss creature is the god of lifeblood, which is the coldest possible take, but hear me out:

lifeblood is a primal force like the void, and we see that the void acts on its own when not under control (seeing as how it stops being a problem in the true ending when the knight shows up). What if lifeblood is the same? without proper control, it grows wild and takes over.

With proper control, from something like the abyss creature, it doesn't take over. My only other theory is that it had something to do with either the Pale King or The Infection staving off the Lifeblood takeover, but idk, i like my other theory

[hidden crater]

Imo Hkss sucks, the main character has a mind to think, has a will to break, a voice to cry suffering, isnt born of god and void, cant seal the blinding light that plagues the dreams, isnt the vessel and worst of all isnt the hollow knight.

[polar latch]

also no zote

[hidden crater]

zote can stay at hallownest

[pastel timber]

the reason lifeblood doesnt take hold in hallownest is cause the pale king outlawed it, hornet says she saw it infect things before so unless the lifeblood beast came way way way later it was just because everyone stopped injecting themselves with it when it became taboo
the question of what exactly the lifeblood beast is though is really interesting, if its a god why doesnt it do anything, if its an infected abyss creature then how does lifeblood get into godhome

[stray fog]

What's the lore of the old penitent?

[hidden crater]

hes old

[pastel timber]

well it doesnt have a voice but it certainly has the other things, the pale king and white lady were both wrong, none of the vessels are hollow, they fundamentally misunderstood void, and in a way so do we because of it

[proud swan]

(removed cause im a dumb bell)

[proud swan]

Oh wait I got it, you mean Hornet

[zinc pivot]

Guys
I think it was a joke about hornet

[pastel timber]

oh whoops 😭

[hidden crater]

lmao

[pastel timber]

i thought they meant sealed siblings ending </3
theres too much ss in this franchise

[polar latch]

i thought hornet was talking about the radiance's infection when she mentioned seeing similar stuff

[pastel timber]

ss lore is a crazy name for a channel

[proud swan]

dude the knight can't even run how is he a god. weak

[polar latch]

knight is not a he

[hidden crater]

The knight just built like that

[polar latch]

hornet is the only one of PK's kids to have a gender since she's the only one who's not full of void

[hidden crater]

The knight has everything but a gender

[proud swan]

sorry, mother language habits. you're right though

[zinc pivot]

And even then she can’t even be trans
Because weavers canonically have no dicks to reference

[hidden crater]

what.

[polar latch]

ohhhh that makes more sense lol, sorry ive seen lots of people just assume it to be a he, thats more valid lol

[proud swan]

theres only one gender to hornet: goddess

[zinc pivot]

Because weaverborns are female

[stray fog]

How do weavers reproduce

[zinc pivot]

Bro sounds like kratt

[polar latch]

ohhhhhhh okay i forgot about this lol

still, i wonder if the lack of the abyss creature has something to do with lifeblood being so violent here? idk

[pastel timber]

hk gender is easy to remember
gms (female) all her kids are female
pale king (male) and white lady (female) all their kids are a mix (non binary)
this is how genetics works

[hidden crater]

Pack yo things kratt

[zinc pivot]

Male of other species

Or voodoo shit like eva

[polar latch]

im nonbinary my parents were a man and a woman so i can confirm this is how it works

[proud swan]

yeah my language doesn't have a neutral third person pronoun so we call it a He (since knight is male noun)

[polar latch]

yeaaa that makes more sense lol

[stray fog]

That's why the cages in the cradle went as far as one eighth weavers

[polar latch]

i like the theory that the hunter from hk is part weaver

[zinc pivot]

He doesn’t have enough limbs

[proud swan]

that's low 😭 can't a man simp anymore

[polar latch]

hornet is half weaver and has four limbs

[zinc pivot]

And now we know weavers cant even be male

[hidden crater]

I love how this game just keeps on throwing flashbangs at the players

[polar latch]

trans hunter....

[pastel timber]

god bless lost verdania

[zinc pivot]

Verdania by chance?
Update your game

[pastel timber]

hollow knight gone woke </3

[hidden crater]

God bless lost verdani insert radiance screaming here

[proud swan]

is that the third palestag encounter

[zinc pivot]

I replay radiance scream everyday
Its just so peak

[proud swan]

Lost Pale Forgotten Palestag

[polar latch]

i hope we get pharloom bay at some point

[pastel timber]

absolute lost pale forgotten palestag

[polar latch]

i wanna design a pirate crayfish with a crew of little shrimp guys that would have shown up in pharloom bay

[spare holly]

elder hu has an odd similarity to shakra`s tribe also hi

[proud swan]

Ay we definitely are. Its empty space now, not like it was replaced

[rain gate]

boat to steel city in pharloom bay trust

[hidden crater]

Music to my ears

[polar latch]

this reminds me, what if the trilobite in deepnest is actually a giant dormant weaver? made this connection last night when i saw the weavers that give you your new abilities in SS are similar statues (this is probably not true)

[hidden crater]

Idk bro the dlc lowkey mid as fuck

[proud swan]

TC doesnt want you to know but they paid noclippers to say theres nothing to the right of karmelita. Its a lie. dont buy into the propaganda. Its Pharloom bay, zote is waiting you there with his boat

[whole holly]

i hope we see Lifeblood DLC where Abyss Creature revives everything, Coral Forest, Verdania and lifeblood spreads everywhere

[rain gate]

wtf

[stray fog]

Thats what I was thinking as well

[polar latch]

we could even find a knight of great renown on the open seas. piloting some king of,.,. zotebote...

[polar latch]

ohhhh shit lifeblood coursing through the veins of pharloom and reviving once-lost areas could be PEAK

[pastel timber]

mhm! it looks like tc took inspo from backer designs for future species which is really really cool, this guy is too similar to the coral warriors to be a coincidence

[hidden crater]

Im seeing a pattern here...

[proud swan]

wheres Pablo

[hidden crater]

In the works

[pastel timber]

someone mentioned it looks like a massive pharlid, which it really does when you look at it

[polar latch]

Pablo is such a success it doesnt count

[rain gate]

xero too

[stray fog]

Pablo vs zoteboat
Who's better

[proud swan]

our little dwarf

[hidden crater]

Dont forget about Lace Combat

[polar latch]

very true...

i like Pablo he's the HK community's Togore

[hidden crater]

We aint surviving till we get a DLC

[polar latch]

Pablo Weaver, son of Pale King and Herrah Weaver

[proud swan]

Im brainrotting in this discord server till theres a dlc announcement. Then I will brainrot a bit more

[polar latch]

honestly pablo is actually a very pleasant design who started the pablo movement i want to draw him

[hidden crater]

Why does witch look like leftover spaghetti

[polar latch]

mama mia...

[rain gate]

What's Pablo's weapon even supposed to be

[hidden crater]

I didnt know the twisted bud was italian

[polar latch]

hamer

[rain gate]

It looks like a hammer but it's flat

[proud swan]

Funny thing did you guys know Pale comes from pālus and and Pablo comes from paulus. This CANT be a coincidence. Pablo is a higher being

[polar latch]

shovel...

[pastel timber]

theres pale beings, and pablo beings

[proud swan]

its a gilette mach 3 sensitive

[polar latch]

although tbh it could just be from the angle its viewed at (unless theres official pablo art showing his weapon from other angles)

[polar latch]

oh yeah i like the razor idea then

[rain gate]

Makes sense as a natural progression

[hidden crater]

Oh dear god no

[polar latch]

hollow knight: shavesong

[proud swan]

damn a razor would actually make sense because of scale. someone contact TC we got a fire idea

[rain gate]

Nail, needle, razor

[odd skiff]

Act 3 spoilers: I love how Team Cherry juxtaposed ||Garmond|| and ||Shakra|| in the late game. While ||Shakra is a wise protector, defending the weak while also being seen resting in Bellhart and having her life as the top priority|| in comparison ||Garmond has no care for himself, and puts the lives of other bugs before his own, because he wants to protect others and not repeat the mistakes of the past, which ultimately leads to his death||

[proud swan]

HK players have to continually find new ways to torture themselves

[polar latch]

god i hope we get more garmond lore. i remember hearing that zaza was originally the smarter one, is that still true do we think?

[proud swan]

Is Garmond confirmed dead? I thought so, but you never know

[spare holly]

maybe this suggests pharloom and hallownest were pretty close

[odd skiff]

I mean he sounds pretty smart in the needolin dialogue, but I don't think so no

[polar latch]

garmond:

[odd skiff]

Definitely dead

[hidden crater]

From what I've seen in the vid it includes: unarmed crest, 1 mask per bind, 1 damage only, get infested with maggots every time you get hit

[proud swan]

He was just resting 😭 no way they did that to zaza

[proud swan]

this is insane, Im looking it up right now

[hidden crater]

Stage 1: Denial

[polar latch]

i feel like, if he did survive the void, he died shortly after hornet left the room

[odd skiff]

Zaza literally says "together till the end, we'll meet soon again at our old village"" in the needolin dialogue

[polar latch]

anyways let hornet ride zaza into battle i think

at least Nuu survives act 3. thats all that matters...

[proud swan]

Garmond and zaza are like this. Why one is hiding the other if they both bugs

[eternal sigil]

alright chat, what do we think about this dood now that Skong has happened

[odd skiff]

As in, he'll stay with him until he dies also

[polar latch]

a shame that Benjin and Crull died (i think?), i liked them

[hidden crater]

They were lowkey chill

[proud swan]

Someone pointed out he hunter symbols are exactly the same, which seems to imply a connection or a society of hunters somehow. But that's it, don't think we won anything else

[polar latch]

i like the part weaver idea, or at least some sort of arachnid. someone once said he could be a huntsman or wolf spider and i like that idea a lot. especially with his lack of extra limbs, he very well could either be hiding them, have lost them in battle, or was born without them

[eternal sigil]

• tall, lanky build with a thin + long abdomen and a disproportionately large/bulbous head
• head is kept obscured with a cowl except for his (six, narrowed/pointy) eyes
• seems to feel some kind of loose kinship with Hornet: "Could she be... a fellow Hunter?"
• Hornet's starting and default crest, pointedly, is the Hunter

[polar latch]

what if its just the HK universe's equivalent to universal signage like roadsigns lmao

[hidden crater]

Hornet took lessons from the hunter real

[polar latch]

yeah hes absolutely got something to do with the weavers

[eternal sigil]

I think the idea of the Hunter either as some kind of lost/abandoned sibling of Hornet's, or a quarter/half Weaver descended from another of Herrah's followers, is deeply interesting

[whole holly]

he doesn't have to be arachnid to have multiple pairs of eyes, Crust King Khann also has multiple pairs of eyes, he might be crustacean

[proud swan]

it's also funny how the hunter has 6 eyes and we don't have many of them. Could you imagine if he is part weaver

[stray fog]

Did I miss something or was there no explanation about a lumafly breaking the seal of binding on hornet's cage

[eternal sigil]

Yeah the Hunters as an organization are definitely a "thing." Not sure what that is, but the term has too much recurrence as a discrete thing/title with a recurring symbol not to be

[polar latch]

okay yeah but huntsman spider fits so well

[eternal sigil]

Notably he only has two lower legs (rather than four), however... so does Hornet

[proud swan]

yes but not the exact same

[whole holly]

okay i guess you are right it does it does

[polar latch]

plus he could TOTALLY be hiding that dinky weaver head under that cowl

[stray fog]

Hornet is half pale king half weaver. So the hunter could also partly be a weaver despite his number of legs

[eternal sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/brunch-mimosa-logo-gif-13692574

[polar latch]

anyways moss mother and the like are a species of wasp

[proud swan]

To be fair, these are the ones we can see. Lost Sinner has small arms that may be the cause with him as well, you never know

[eternal sigil]

calling someone "Hunter" is basically like calling someone "gangsta"

[whole holly]

i definitely don't think he is weaver, he is male and there are no male weaver's he could potentially be arachnid

[eternal sigil]

yeah that is my thought

[proud swan]

hunter is gillys brother they're both part weaver and part mosskin, you heard it here first

[whole holly]

still doesn't prove he is weaver

[foggy fractal]

I don't think theres evidence to suggest that he couldn't be part weaver though
think its up in the air

[polar latch]

transgender...

[proud swan]

well nothing proves it till we get ingame or creator confirmation of anything, but it does seem like a reasonable assumption

[stray fog]

Although if he was part weaver, gms would have sent for him

[polar latch]

yeah we dont know for sure if part weavers are also exclusively male

[foggy fractal]

oh right

[whole holly]

that is bad argument, it needs to be proven he is in first place

[eternal sigil]

I think Hunter absolutely isn't a full Weaver, but I don't think there is any restriction on Weaver descendants being male, because them all being female could just be due to GMS only willfully uplifting female Pharlids (and in so doing, depriving the Weavers of males so they couldn't reproduce freely to keep them dependent)

[polar latch]

i do like the idea someone once said, where he IS a spider (huntsman), but not a weaver. helps that huntsman spiders dont really use silk

[proud swan]

i'm with you on this one, we need to find evidence for it and not against it. burden of proof is ours

[eternal sigil]

raises the question of whether they would have known of his existence at all, given his incredible stealth and mobility (has seemingly stalked prey at every corner of Hallownest)

[polar latch]

perhaps even raised up by unn? unless he says hes from out of hallownest?

[stray fog]

If that's true then a normal spider isn't as cool as a weaver

[polar latch]

okay but hunter has the aura to make up for it

[foggy fractal]

nah we're not here to say he is, we're here to ask if he could be
I don't think he is a weaver either because we don't have anything to suggest that he is

[whole holly]

he can be cool without being weaver, being huntsman spider as large as him is pretty cool

[spare holly]

perfectly shaped weaver body and an odd big round head covered up, also pretty similar (really similar) to the hunters crest

[eternal sigil]

Capturing Hornet was an ordeal in its own right and she keeps a pretty high profile. Half-God, princess of Hallownest, known within its lore. Hunter is basically a hermit who literally lives in his ghilly suit in the middle of the woods

[polar latch]

hunstman spiders are usually fuckin huge anyways...

[whole holly]

he could technically be but it is slim chance

[foggy fractal]

because dlcs exist its something that could be expanded upon, same with Herrah
whether they will though I doubt

[polar latch]

theres probably not even anything pharloom could send that would have a chance of containing him, just off his size alone

[eternal sigil]

imagine if one of the DLCs lets us meet with and free other captured Weaver descendants and one of them is Hunter

[stray fog]

I think gms has some way to detect weavers because there's no way she would have come to know about so many weaver descendants normally.

It could also be that she has access to the mind of every bug in her hivemind, so when pilgrims from other kingdoms come to pharloom and know about weaver descendants in their own kingdoms, gms also gets that knowledge

[polar latch]

i might draw a potential Hunter Weaver at some point, to explore this idea

[proud swan]

all confirmed weavers have six eyes
no other multi-eyed being has six eyes

seems like something we should pursue further

[polar latch]

hunter got captured but broke free so easily they didnt bother to try to capture him again

[proud swan]

even Shade Lord has 8

[polar latch]

bro neg diffed a pale being. he's old....

[eternal sigil]

tbh they have machines designed to hold [Fourth] Chorus mechs/robots, I think at minimum they could restrain him if they got their hands on him, but actually transporting him to Pharloom would be a devilish feat

they would need to use a ludicrous amount of Silk to wrap him in a cocoon

[polar latch]

well those are robots under pharloom's control

[proud swan]

this is FIRE

[rain gate]

Maybe he's from deepnest originally

[whole holly]

but in weaver's case being ascended from pharlids Pharlids have 2 pairs of eyes, while hunter naturally has 3 pairs of eyes

[eternal sigil]

true
imagine if they send a contingent of giant mechs to literally manhandle him across the wastes of the Surface and return to the kingdom

[polar latch]

Hunter is too swag he can just break out. bro slurps up the silk like spaghetti and its like this image

i will gladly front the Hunter propaganda movement

[proud swan]

true but we do not know many part weavers, its possible having six eyes is a genetic trait like any other

[eternal sigil]

yeah, the shape and number of the eyes is extremely consistently reserved for Weavers. Even the Weaverling summons from Hollow Knight have this trait

[whole holly]

how many part weaver's do we see in pharloom so we can compare him to?

[proud swan]

The hunter:

"When I was young, my brothers and sisters and I would hunt each other in the nest. Now I hunt alone."

brother he said NEST

[whole holly]

nest? birds have nest too what's your point, spiders aren't only animals with nest

[polar latch]

yeah i really dont think he could be anything but a spider, even if hes not a weaver, only spiders have six eyes in this world so far

[proud swan]

only hornet 😭 I get your point though

[eternal sigil]

I don't think the nest bit is necessarily significant, lots of organisms have nests. However if he is Weaver progeny, the fact he had siblings is potentially of extreme significance

[terse stump]

Anyone else feels like the lore contradicts?

Because I can't tell if the theme is the city exploiting everything and everyone, including grandma Silk, of which she's basically treated like a living battery like it's the matrix

Or if Silk is just the root of all evil

[polar latch]

and widow!

[whole holly]

Hornet has one pair of eyes, wow

[eternal sigil]

Silk isn't inherently evil, it is just extremely powerful, and power corrupts. Especially when it is inherently linked to a power-hungry creature/god

[proud swan]

widow is not confirmed to be part weaver, is she?

[polar latch]

pale king influence, we see her weaver side take over when she binds GMS

[eternal sigil]

Like, petrostates and the countries extremely reliant on petroleum in the real world. Who is exploiting whom? Is it not mutual?

[proud swan]

she is not necessarily the one that appears is the slab. more likely she is first gen

[terse stump]

Hornet is also powerful

[whole holly]

is widow confirmed to be part weaver?

[rain gate]

I might be insane

[polar latch]

Pale King genetics seem to be like. sorta like viltrumite genetics i think

[eternal sigil]

she talks several times about having to willfully resist the urge to dominate simps other bugs, and in at least one of the endings gives into this and becomes a divine ruler in her own right due to absorbing too much power

[terse stump]

Widow is artificially blocked from making silk, she is a weaver

[stray fog]

There's only so many possible mask shapes

[polar latch]

look at Perpetos Noo, he's a dragonfly and looks REALLY similar to the first guys

[eternal sigil]

yeag

[proud swan]

Thinking about it little weavers could also be part weavers. There are no male weavers

For all we know hornets body is because of pale king

[rain gate]

This guy has 6 eyes

[whole holly]

i agree, we don't see root attributes in vessels also

[proud swan]

Wait who is he again?

[polar latch]

shes either 1/4 or 1/8 weaver, i forget which. its shown in a little cage above the cradle iirc, and the most recently opened one (which would likely be widow) has that

[proud swan]

Nah this is just speculation

[polar latch]

fisher spider. he just looks like he would sit on a boat and fish.

[whole holly]

i know i wanted answer from them

[rain gate]

One of the spirits in the glade

[lethal burrow]

no, Patrick, she is not one of the captured Weavers

[rain gate]

Also is it just me or are these flying ant corpses

[stray fog]

Another explanation for why gms wouldn't have sent for the hunter even if he was a weaver descendants is that maybe he can't generate silk in his shell

We never see the weaverlings in deepnest using silk either, and gms didn't care about them

[polar latch]

i mean its pretty fair to assume widow was captured by the citadel, considering her silk being bound (saw someone say she was bound BEFORE capture, and went willingly, which could be neat!)

[lethal burrow]

what about them is similar to an ant?

[proud swan]

I sincerely think the whole theory about widow being the last of the first gen is much better

[polar latch]

i totally see it, plus iirc the bug hes based on/inspired by uses specifically ant corpses since thats what it hunts (dont quote me on that)

[proud swan]

you ever heard that one? someone dropped it yesterday

[whole holly]

he seems to be part of broader arthropod family, maybe what's what spiders look like kinda

[lethal burrow]

I don't see a correlation between her silk being bound and her being captured.

If anything, they captured the weavers for their silk, so it makes no sense

[stray fog]

I haven't

[lethal burrow]

ah ye i see it

[whole holly]

non-weaver's can have 6 eyes too it seems

[proud swan]

Ok, first of all, this is LYCOPHOS theory so shoutout to bro

[polar latch]

lemme elaborate: someone said she could have been the one captured in the steel city, having been bound to servitude there, and having her silk bound from them (since the pins dont look like pharloom pins). she could have gone willingly to pharloom, and served them since she cant produce her own silk? also i imagine removing the pins would probs kill her

[lethal burrow]

That's been around longer than yesterday. I'm pretty sure.

[foggy fractal]

given that the glade characters are backer characters I doubt they'd have any connection to Pharloom, TC probably didn't think far enough with them, and I don't think any of them say anything to connect them to Pharloom eitherway, any similarity imo could just be Ari looking back at some of these designs and reusing parts of it

[polar latch]

its just spiders, every single spider has six eyes and so far the only potential exceptions are that one ghost and the hunter

[proud swan]

basically:

widow say (of the first... the last) in her dialogue
theres a "twelfth of the first" slab
first sinner is "first of the first"

so its reasonable to assume they're talking about generation of weavers, widow being the last and first sinner being the first

[rain gate]

They probably used them as inspiration yes

[whole holly]

claim is that he could be weaver while non-weavers seem to have 6 eyes as well, so makes claim weaker

[proud swan]

it's possible. I was presented to it as being new so if anyone knows any prior comments about it Im glad to set it straight

[polar latch]

ive been saying he could just be a different kind of spider

[proud swan]

You're 100% right

[rain gate]

Admittedly this one is less of a connection

[proud swan]

It makes the claim weaker but I still choose to abide by it

[polar latch]

closer to that one dream boss but also closer to the enemies in coral tower

[whole holly]

nope, you argued that he could be weaver right here

[proud swan]

they both look like bro flexing muscles

[hallow marten]

Can someone explain me this thing of generations?

[fallow spindle]

lore: hornet canonically thinks her father is a fool

[polar latch]

well yeah but i changed my argument as further evidence was presented

because i am a human being and my opinions can change

[proud swan]

objectively right

[whole holly]

i do think that he could be spider, however weaver is extremely unlikely, no evidence even entertains idea he is weaver let alone hunter, just his eyes

[polar latch]

i'm moreso open to the idea of him being a weaver, however him being a spider in general is extremely likely

[proud swan]

What do you mean? Like generations of weavers?

[eternal sigil]

could well be that males aren't able to produce or manipulate Silk

[polar latch]

oh i actually really like this

[lethal burrow]

A lot of widows dialogue makes it seem like she's a pure weaver.
particularly this line "Of the first... the last..."
She's of the first Weavers but she's the last that remains, or else I can't think of any other interpretation for that line.

widow also has dialogue saying "Our mother... true... Our light divine..."

and "Spawn of those who dared to flee. She has found her way home... at last.
How fine her shell, and Silk, and claw... For you, mother... let me claim her all for you!"

I don't know that a descendant would call grandmother silk "mother" or that a descendant who only came here afterwards would you speak about this land and the old Weavers in such a way.

The pieces don't fit to me

also is the fact that widow looks pretty full weaver all things consider, especially compared to hornet.

[whole holly]

if you aren't going to hold position and conveniently change it when argument go against your narrative you aren't really debating

[foggy fractal]

do we have a side by side image of widow and first sinner yet

[polar latch]

im not debating im brainstorming ideas with people in a discord server

[hallow marten]

Exactly. It’s impossible to read everything, and I’ve just started trying to catch up on the lore the community is theorizing

[polar latch]

im just proposing ideas with the knowledge i have, and learning new things as i go, allowing me to change my perspective, because thats a thing normal human beings do

[cedar skiff]

sup

[whole holly]

you exchanged argument with me whether or not he is weaver

[eternal sigil]

my belief regarding Widow is that she is the "twelfth of the first" mentioned in passing in the Slab who was not granted absolution

[fallow spindle]

lore: hornet is a lesbian

[polar latch]

yeah and the conversation has changed, and so has my specific interpretation: he could be a weaver, but being a spider in general is more likely

[lethal burrow]

I think I've posted it before let me find it

[cedar skiff]

hornet has been around for so long and has had so many mates itd be difficult for me to believe she doesnt swing both ways

[scenic stirrup]

Are there any ticks in hollow knight

[fallow spindle]

true

[polar latch]

hornet absolutely swings every possible way, she must have gotten bored in all her years of life and tried some wild shit

[proud swan]

Ah yes, this is undoubtly true. I also think she saying "of the first, the last" means she is the last one remaining. But I did talk yesterday about a different interpretation:

"Of the first... the last... Our mother... true... Our light divine... Wake... Wake... Wake... Glory to you... Devotion to you..."

The whole line where she says "of the first, the last" she just mentions GMS. There are no references to her. So maybe she believes GMS is of the first, the last. We do know that GMS called them divine and if we think about aposthasy, we do now GMS considered itself a god. So maybe she means "she is the last one of the gods" or something like that. Which could be the lie the weavers found out about!

Hope you read it, I dont think its too bad of a theory tbf

[scenic stirrup]

Do u think hornet has kids

[eternal sigil]

nothing confirms this however I am like 80% sure that "of the First" refers to Weavers, seeing as the game repeatedly uses "first children" as a Citadel term for the Weavers and "First of the First" is the First Sinner

[polar latch]

i think she straight up cant

[whole holly]

so if you changed your stance about his, why did you argue against me when i argued he was most likely not a weaver

[fallow spindle]

ythink she ever did poly

[cedar skiff]

she mentions bearing the same infertility curse as the other weavers so i dont thimk so

[lethal burrow]

OK, just ignore harrah

#sk-lore message

[eternal sigil]

possible one supposes, unknown. If so it is possible that this was long enough ago that the kids have either long matured and dispersed, or died

[polar latch]

idk man its hard to remember when these things took place, theres like twelve conversations going on rn

[lethal burrow]

(also this might be useful as well)

[polar latch]

absolutely, at least once

[scenic stirrup]

How did herrah counterract the curse then? Is the pale king mpreg theory real

[cedar skiff]

those big ass round heads

[eternal sigil]

The game talks about motherhood a lot and Hornet muses on it somewhat, but never directly. Though she very rarely actually talks about relationships and family in any capacity

[whole holly]

okay when, weird but okay

[fallow spindle]

fascinating

[whole holly]

Stalking Devouts also aren't weavers but they have 6 eyes

[scenic stirrup]

[lethal burrow]

fair enough, but I will point out that the apostasy might be a thing from the Weaver's time considering the slab seems to be made with metal

[eternal sigil]

I think the fact that the Red Memory was almost entirely family experiences rather than anything involving romance suggests that it has never been of particularly huge importance to Hornet

[cedar skiff]

i personally interpret the true ending as hornet becoming somewhat of a mentor to lace but more in a familial sense like shakra and her own master due to this consistent theme

[polar latch]

idk i just dont think people have to lock in to one interpretation and stick with that, and changing opinions is fine and natural

[whole holly]

Hunter is definitely not a weaver

[fallow spindle]

if a higher being can change the minds of a bug to be physically smarter surely he can make himself pregnant

[polar latch]

spiders. from deepnest. nobody is saying everything with six eyes is a weaver, but so far barring two POSSIBLE exceptions, everything with six eyes is AT LEAST a spider

[scenic stirrup]

Lets gooo

[polar latch]

again, i think its possible but unlikely, and more likely that hes another type of spider (i still like the huntsman spider idea)

[eternal sigil]

I think this is likely for a number of reasons

• game stressing familial (both hereditary and found/formed) relationships immensely, esp. right before Lost Lace with the 3 Queens stuff
• Lace is referred to as requiring fairly frequent infusions/consumption of Silk to "sustain", and with the death of GMS Hornet is one of the very few remaining extant sources of Silk in the world
• the two are technically kin

[cedar skiff]

eh agree to disagree, i think her familial relationships just played an overall more important role in her developmenet through silksong specifically and the games ovearching themes, conchflies entry suggest she at least found some joy in it

[proud swan]

Yeah I get you! Its really hard to follow. When we talk about generations, we know for a fact GMS created at least one generation of original weavers, and we also know they had offspring (theres 1/4 weaver, 1/8 weaver, hornet who is 1/2, etc). So someone theorized that First Sinner is also the eldest, the first of the first generation, because of this:

"Penitent, First of the First.Guilty of the sin of apostasy.Penance by constriction.Absolution denied."

[fallow spindle]

nothing can top this theory

[polar latch]

no cost too great, after all

[fallow spindle]

ive peaked its all going downhill now

[polar latch]

thats how zote happened

[eternal sigil]

true, joy in some capacity doubtless, but it doesn't seem to be something that drives her strongly, or at least its absence is something she accepts well enough

[scenic stirrup]

Where does hornet say shes infertile

[eternal sigil]

hornet is never stated to be sterile

[fallow spindle]

what if zote was a test on the pale king trying to become pregnant

[lethal burrow]

Hunter is probably not a weaver

[whole holly]

my point is you don't have to be weaver to have six eyes, that's what original argument was , it just proves whether or not hunter is spider can at least be debated but him being weaver is baseless and has no evidence, since main evidence was eyes

[proud swan]

I just realized they have different anatomies. What the hell? There is a weaver with NO arms a nd doesnt look like it was dented or ripped off

[cedar skiff]

also another thing that i use as support is that it continues the other endings deal with hornet replacing gms in some capacity (sans twisted child)

[fallow spindle]

this is a joke obviously not

[polar latch]

she doesnt, but she does say to eva that weavers have a LOT of trouble with producing children, leading many to believe hornet is either sterile (especially since shes a hybrid), or would share this issue

[scenic stirrup]

Suffering from the curse and all ye

[whole holly]

they are synonyms

[polar latch]

okay but the argument changed since then. the conversation skewed towards spiders instead of just weavers

[foggy fractal]

ok I think this is accurate, might have check for hornet is accurate though cuz I used her Hollow Knight sprites instead of the silksong ones
also ignore me

[fallow spindle]

half weaver half wyrm

[lethal burrow]

well, I've got this for comparing the sizes

[eternal sigil]

the fact that there are not only quarter- but eighth-weavers suggests that hybridogenesis isn't an issue; indeed it may well be that hybrid Weaver progeny are more readily able to reproduce than their pure mothers

[cedar skiff]

since you know, she does absorb gms remaining silk.. lace needs silk... etc etc. it kind of piles up in a nice way and its one of the few things in the game that seems to be really consistent and readable (the familial - specifically motherhood - theme i mean)

[proud swan]

Hunter is definitely not an original weaver because he talks about brothers and sisters

[whole holly]

i did argue that he could likely be spider in first place, so thanks for agreeing with me

[foggy fractal]

ok so it seems accurate

[lethal burrow]

Widow is a little big in your version, but yeah

[eternal sigil]

moreover in most kinds of organisms where hybridization happens, male hybrids are the ones that are frequently sterile

[fallow spindle]

maybe the weavers evolved and became more fertiel in. hallownest

[hallow marten]

Oh, got it. And what are the tougths on the weavers that went to Hallownest? Is Herrah a first gen one, as Hornet is a 1/2?

[polar latch]

good point, although whether or not shes able to reproduce, she does not seem like the type to do it willingly

[eternal sigil]

though that's usually only in mammals, no ideaa about birds

[polar latch]

yeah thats what ive been saying dude

[foggy fractal]

yeah shes floating above the ground a bit sorry I didn't place her on the red line properly
I refuse to believe they increased Hornet's size pls TC 😭

[cedar skiff]

i wish we had gotten more on weaver reproduction since it was so drastically retconned from hollow knight

[whole holly]

him having brothers and sisters shows that his parents can reproduce without struggle , not something weavers can do

[proud swan]

Well, we do not know if there were other generations of original weavers (made by gms). But Herrah is definitely a pure weaver and created by GMS

[eternal sigil]

considering what we have seen of bug parenthood it is likely she would have to settle down and "chill out" far more than she seems to want to do, which while isn't impossible seems unlikely. Herrah of all bugs did it, but this was also an exceptional circumstance

[whole holly]

well thanks for agreeing, i am glad we finally found common ground

[polar latch]

yeah hes either part weaver or, like weve said, just an entirely different spider

[eternal sigil]

imagine some sequel where Eva's soul/essence is born into one of Hornet's kids

[cedar skiff]

but im fine with the information we have because it does craft good enough story foundations, just wish we understood a little bit more how exactly it funcions and why herrah/pale king was an exception

[scenic stirrup]

Do u think herrah was racist too like the other weavers lol

[polar latch]

i think weve been on common ground and have just been bickering about things from before lmao

oh yeah id like to share a headcanon

all the weavers that hornet binds? their consciousness remains. she has a weaver twitch chat in her head.

[whole holly]

most likely entirely different spider, feel free to have headcanon, because it is technically plausible

[proud swan]

that' a very fine argument right there. Hornet also had mates and seem to "share the curse", so part weavers would probably have lots of difficulty reproducing also. Spiders do have multiple offspring from eegs though

[hallow marten]

When does she meet Pablo?

Lol

[whole holly]

yup, Hunter is most likely not a weaver, even him being Spider isn't exactly proven it is just theory based on his eyes

[eternal sigil]

not necessarily; most arthropods have a bunch of babies at once (spiders included), and while this doesn't always seem to be the case it can definitely apply even with Higher Beings (see: the Vessels)

[proud swan]

what is a little weird is Hunter idenfying with Hornet somehow. Definitely raises some kind of suspicion. But yeah, I'm convinced, Hunter is probably not a weaver

[eternal sigil]

moreover it is possible that he is a quarter or eighth Weaver and as Weaver blood diminishes, so too does reproductive issue

[zinc pivot]

Is what you would think

[polar latch]

nobody disagreed with me its canon now

[molten python]

Who is Hunter? The one in Hollow Knight?

[proud swan]

avatar type shi

[whole holly]

there is no evidence to support this, hornet does confirm it is passed down, however nothing confirms curse diminishes

[polar latch]

"chat im not gonna bind lace. chat. i dont even think i can do that. thanks for the gifted silk Weaver#5"

[eternal sigil]

there is no evidence that Hornet cannot have progeny barring general assumptions about Weavers, as iirc she speaks on the issue minimally

[proud swan]

Yes! We were talking about anatomical similarities with weavers

[eternal sigil]

where is this "confirmed" and in what precise context?

[cedar skiff]

why doesnt lace give double silk upon hitting her, faulty game design

[molten python]

When did the Hunter identify with Hornet?

[whole holly]

weaver's are exception in game, and HK universe isn't bound by real life biology

[eternal sigil]

Hunter's journal entry for Hornet in Hollow Knight

[proud swan]

I mean she probably can but its definitely hard, there are 1/8 weavers so 1/4 weavers and 1/2 can definitely reproduce somehow

[whole holly]

She says she shares weaver's curse

[molten python]

If the Weavers had so much trouble reproducing, why is Deepnest full of Little Weavers?

[polar latch]

i still think hornet wouldnt WANT children regardless. she doesnt seem like the type to want kids, especially since shed probably outlive them

[lethal burrow]

oh.... ok...

GUYS.

so you know how it is going on about who these ruins belonged to? Well, now I'm thinking it's most likely pre-Weaver rule citadel, grandmother silk era.

Pious Isamor dialogue at least confirms It's citadel stuff.

"Hark! ...ilgrim! You... climb... our eternal embrace... who stand stru... the threshold... our stark Citadel of stone..."
"See... Citadel's simple stone, bare an... dorned."

but if we do run with the theory that this is grandmother, silk era, and that metal came with the Weaver's rule.... well then, that tells us exactly who the first sinner was locked up by... if the theory is true.

[polar latch]

general consensus seems to be that theyre hybrids? idk shrugs

[hallow marten]

Wow, this makes sense. I thought that you were talking about SS's Huntress

[eternal sigil]

I am suspicious that those are homunculi or else members of the Spider Clan who were modified by/inducted into the Weaver civilization despite not being fully Weavers

[whole holly]

i am not saying that hunter can't be weaver, but him being one is extremely unlikely

[zinc pivot]

How many showed up in game exactly?
Because weavers are in double digits

[proud swan]

" I have seen this nimble little creature. I thought her prey and pounced at her, but with a flash she stabbed me with her flying stinger and darted away. Could she be... a Hunter?"

[eternal sigil]

like, the Stalking Devouts are almost certainly not spiders, however they wear Weaver masks and are worshippers of Herrah

[molten python]

Would anyone count? They're just a little enemy that keeps respawning.

[limpid summit]

The Devouts are Deepnest spiders

[lethal burrow]

I think the little Weavers are just Weavers that are regressing back to their more base pharlid form because of the infection

[cedar skiff]

i just fully believe the weaver reproduction thing was retconned

[proud swan]

Yeah I'm with you right now

[polar latch]

theyre probably just generic "arachnids" tbh

[limpid summit]

Devouts Deeplings and Midwife are spiders native to Hallownest

[molten python]

Same.

[foggy fractal]

Eva: I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
think he meant this, Hornet says that she knows the curse well and is a victim of it

[eternal sigil]

midwife ain't a spider

[cedar skiff]

weve seen generic spider like bugs, the ones weavers came from, they look nothing like the deepnest ones

[eternal sigil]

oh interesting. I haven't actually seen that dialogue in full

[polar latch]

no she definitely is, or at least an arachnid

[molten python]

The Pharlids you mean?

[cedar skiff]

and like, i dont even think retcon = bad. this decision makes the story a lot more interesting! and yeah the contrast to real life spiders being super productive is fun

[polar latch]

trobbio and marissa are both butterflies. i think various bugs can have HUGE differences

[cedar skiff]

eh this is pretty important to the story so i dont think theyd overlook it

[eternal sigil]

• not 8 legs
• only 4 eyes (though Pharlids also only have 4)

[cedar skiff]

wrong reply i meant to reply to the above ^^

[proud swan]

so at least some of sands of karak was dominated by Weavers. Which could actually be a hint of weavers destroying the Coral Gorge and not GMS

[polar latch]

oh yeah i forgot shes only got four eyes, but the legs dont matter, none of the weavers have eight legs iirc

[lethal burrow]

I forget where we learned this

[molten python]

Doesn't Hornet only have 4 limbs?

[cedar skiff]

theres a lot of inconsistencies/accidental similarities in hk/skong designs but i think for something as crucial as the weaver species they wouldnt simply forget it

[lethal burrow]

ahem

[polar latch]

shes probs just another creepy crawly from deepnest. although tbh she could be like. void? i doubt it

[limpid summit]

There’s variation among Deepnest spiders just like Weavers Midwife is definitely a spifer

[cedar skiff]

counterpoint pale king genes

[polar latch]

ok most of the weavers dont have eight legs lol

[molten python]

Do we know anything about the king of Deepnest other than the fact he died?

[cedar skiff]

noupe

[whole holly]

what are they, aren't they part of spider tribe, wiki shows Stalking Devouts as part of Spider Tribe

[eternal sigil]

I am not convinced that there is a huge amount of symbolism in either the ruinous stonework of Pharloom in the same vein that like 60% of the terrain is compacted ancient bug shells that nobody comments about

[polar latch]

or at least the weaverlings, pharlids, hornet (irrelevant here), and like. uh. widow. dont have eight legs to my knowledge

[whole holly]

what are they, aren't they part of spider tribe, wiki shows Stalking Devouts as part of Spider Tribe

[eternal sigil]

yeah my theory is that most of Deepnest's spider folk are Spider Tribe people who assimilated into the Weavers, possibly after the old king of Deepnest died and Herrah assumed leadership

[cedar skiff]

also, weavers could just be one species that falls under the "spider" umbrella, maybe theres bugs under that umbrella that are naturally intelligent and did not need to be uplifted by gms

[polar latch]

yeah i think stalking devouts are just weird ass spiders. TC has shown that theyll take liberties with their "bugs" before

[whole holly]

sent this twice accidentally bad internet, but here is further collection of in game evidence what are they, aren't they part of spider tribe, wiki shows Stalking Devouts as part of Spider Tribe

[proud swan]

don't forget the two little arms

[polar latch]

yea i like this

[whole holly]

you said stalking devouts aren't spiders though

[eternal sigil]

cut content implies that other non-Weaver spider types exist, as there was some character who brought this up specifically (I'm an "arachni" too but I can't make Silk or else the Citadel would long have caught me)

[whole holly]

hunter does not need to be weaver at all

[eternal sigil]

yeah in hindsight I doubt this a bit, their heads aren't spider-like at all under the masks but they do have eight legs

[polar latch]

oh yeah caravantula

[polar latch]

could be pseudoscorpions...

[eternal sigil]

also this makes me wonder if Widow is still active outside the Citadel because of her old mutilation rendering her unable to make Silk

[polar latch]

a lot of bug IDs in HK/SS are speculation unless directly stated tho, cuz a lot of TC bugs are just Whatever Ari Wanted To Draw

[whole holly]

it could be part of their biology, they still have 6 eyes when provoked, they are more likely spiders than hunter

[cedar skiff]

ehh cut contents flimsy evidence but im choosing to agree here because overall the point made is fine on its own tbh

[eternal sigil]

well the other half of the deal is that base Pharlids are unable to make or use Silk, so therefore the substance appears to be a Weaver exclusive within the setting

[cedar skiff]

yeah good point

[eternal sigil]

therefore other sapient arachnids, while perhaps able to use silk (lowercase), are not able to make/use Silk (specific/titular)

[polar latch]

i like the distinction between Silk (what hornet/gms/weavers use) and Thread (mundane silk produced by normal bugs), it helps differentiate it

[molten python]

They might be able to use spider silk, but not Silk, since GMS is mentioned to be the primal source of Silk.

[polar latch]

like theres silkmoths and i imagine they wouldnt produce Silk silk, just thread silk

[whole holly]

what species are silkmoths in game?

[polar latch]

oh im just saying like hypothetical silkmoths lol my bad

[whole holly]

okay, i got excited for second

[polar latch]

although thistlewind looks like a species of silkmoth/saturniidae moth (which weave silk cocoons)

[proud swan]

Ok I dont mean to go back to this again, but maybe its another coincidence: hunter's symbol looks a lot like a weavers upperbody 😭😭

[eternal sigil]

Yeah the arcane material of Silk appears to be a direct emanation restricted to the divine progeny of GMS

[polar latch]

that grandma moth in spirits glade could be also

okay im imagining the hunter tutoring nuu and thats just. so funny to me

[eternal sigil]

(First Sinner says that the Weavers being daughters of GMS is a lie, though this could just be that she rejects this because they aren't related by birth, moreover that their nature is that of a "normal" bug which has just been modified/uplifted by divine magic, rather than Hornet-esque demigods/godlings)

[whole holly]

it looks vaguely similar to naked eyes but different amount of limbs, different lower body, different spiky head which has it's own limbs

[molten python]

I assume Silk is related to Soul, since the game mentions that Silk is spun from the soul of its creator, it has mystical properties and can heal wounds or extend life, and attacking enemies provides Silk.

[polar latch]

i still think the Fayforn (thing at the top of mount fay that gives you double jump) is a moth and also a higher being of some kind, looks WAY too similar to other moths to be unrelated

[molten python]

I thought that was the point of the cutscene, they're not actually divine.

[eternal sigil]

Hunter was skeptical until he saw Nuu eating the carcass of some giant thing that he had killed without a second thought, then knew he had found a kindred soul at last

[lethal burrow]

I don't know how to square that with everything we know about the moths

[eternal sigil]

new lore: Nuu was Hunter's taste tester and they went on Mythbusters-esque escapades through Hallownest

[foggy fractal]

there are a lot of weaver bodies though
hip spikes, 1 should spike, 2 shoulder spikes, 3 spikes from the shoulder down, 4 spikes from the shoulder down, etc etc
this looks kinda close to a three spiked weaver see the one on the left, but there are lots of variation

[proud swan]

There are actually weavers with this many limbs. Theres at least one that has this many limbs

[proud swan]

yeah you're right, there are A LOT of weaver body dispositions

[eternal sigil]

my theory is that the Fayforn is some kind of giant, magical mite

[polar latch]

PEAK

[eternal sigil]

they share the type of eyes, those weird fang things indicating the "mouth", and the long sinuous tails (though Fayforn has two)

[whole holly]

there are more differences than similarities

[molten python]

I feel like Fayforn isn't any real-life insect.

[eternal sigil]

like a dragon to a lizard

[polar latch]

i think the eyes are more similar to seer's eyes tbh

plus its got very feathery wings and such

[polar latch]

the eyes arent very similar imo

[whole holly]

i am more inclined to believe this

[eternal sigil]

if it is a moth, then there could be some meaning in the "mothwing cloak"

[molten python]

Yeah they look completely different except big round eyes.

[polar latch]

closer to seers eyes but still off

[edgy nebula]

fluffier fur, shiny eyes, bluer torso (when it roars), actually has wings

[whole holly]

Fayforn and Mothkin look vaguely similar

[polar latch]

but more like how moth eyes are drawn in general

[eternal sigil]

there is literally a moth boss which is the largest flying enemy in the game

[proud swan]

I mean this is not something we can objectively say. Its a symbol, its bound to have differences. How many types of crosses are there to symbolize the "one" cross? Whether these diferrences matter, thats subjective. I do think its a reach but its definitely a nice coincidence given the whole hunter may be weaver talk

[polar latch]

also i really want a fayforn plush it looks so huggable

[polar latch]

unless you mean radiance what are you on about

[eternal sigil]

most of the moths have the big light eyes, the fang deals, and long tails. Fay is just extremely fluffy

[eternal sigil]

ah shit, mite boss

[polar latch]

OHHHH

yeah idk i just dont believe that theres some giant flying rat at the top of a mountain, mites seem exclusively mundane and not magic, where the fayforn seems magic. also gotta go

[proud swan]

the symbol does look like ribs and that's way the similarities exist, of course. the carcass of a pray would be an obvious symbol for hunters

[whole holly]

but why symbolize weaver body then weaver's themselves don't do that, plus it looks similar to First Sinner because she is wearing a dress, compare it to Widow or Last Weaver from Hallownest and you get no similarities

[whole holly]

i think Fayforn is moth not mite

[molten python]

Hmm

[proud swan]

Why would fayforn be mite or any other thing other than a fayforn?

[lethal burrow]

fayforn is a bird

[viscid ridge]

I dont think the hunters mark has anything to do with weavers. The pharloom weavers arent the only creatures we know if that has the bony apearance, cause most ancient bug corpses have that boney look. My guess is that the hunters mark originated in the same time frame as the ancient civilization

[static trellis]

It’s possible fayforn isn’t a bug at all. Like the craws

[proud swan]

I'm saying this because Hornet says faydown cloak is made "with the soft down of a fayforn"

[viscid ridge]

Fayforn is just a bug, nothing about it reads bird. Literally crawbugs are more birds than fayforn

[eternal sigil]

those are literally called crawbugs though

[viscid ridge]

The craws are bugs

[whole holly]

i believe Fayforn is moth-like but in game it seems than it is it's own species, Faydown cloak suggest Fay has something to do with species name, Fay means Fairy generally , wings most similar to Butterflies/Moths, Fayforn visually has only moth traits rather than butterflies

[proud swan]

Is there anything that isnt a bug in hollow nest? Even groal is probably a bug somehow. The term is really loose except for godly beings

[eternal sigil]

isn't a dragon just a big flying lizard?

this is the kind of relation I was talking about

[proud swan]

Fayforn is definitely a species, I don't see why we would fit it anywhere else

[eternal sigil]

like, not literally just a mite, but of the mite clade/group of organisms. Much in the way that the Lost Sinner is an arachnid like plain old pharlids

[gilded beacon]

Any chance of Pharloom's Bay appearing in a DLC?

[foggy fractal]

how strong do we think the fayforn is

[viscid ridge]

Groal is also a bug? Literally everything is a bug, with exception to the jellyfish in fog canyon, but the hunter remarks they are really strange, and says they might be artificial. We also get jellyfish in the coral tower, but hornet calls them the basic form of life. Everything in the game is a bug

[static trellis]

The craws in game don’t resemble crawbugs though. They resemble crows more than anything. They resemble crawbugs in name alone

[whole holly]

it could be diverged or related to other species, most likely moths, unless you are suggesting that there are literal Fairies in game

[eternal sigil]

strong enough that the Weavers both respected its will and considered it likely to kill them

[foggy fractal]

no idea
we do have some leftover stuff in the game so maybe
but TC doesn't have to expand on it

[lethal burrow]

I'm confident team Cherry would save a dragon for a dragonfly

[whole holly]

tc wanted Crows but with funky name

[eternal sigil]

we have Pendragors which are basically that

[viscid ridge]

Cause they share a name with crawfish, doesn't equate to the lore in the game. They are their own bug

[eternal sigil]

honestly Verdania taking a bunch of random stuff from borderline Arthurian myth was fascinating

[whole holly]

what is that?

[molten python]

I don't think using real-life entomology is useful to study Hollow Knight creatures. Pharlids are classified as arachnids in-game but they only have six legs.

[static trellis]

Exactly, which is why I think the fayforn is just not a bug or based off a bug but its own thing

[foggy fractal]

well yeah TC doesn't need to be accurate to real life naming schemes

[whole holly]

oh thanks

[proud swan]

aren't you the same person that was convincing the other guy that a point has to be proved? a name with a pun, which is pretty regular in tc, doesnt mean much about its species. We dont even know if there are any related bugs or even evolution on hk universe. bugs are literally created from dreams

[viscid ridge]

We also have the Pale King, who is basically the bug version of a dragon

[gilded beacon]

I think it's funny that all of us saw that the right of Bilewater was a little empty and decided that that's Pharloom's Bay even before we discovered that that's in fact where the Bay would be

[static trellis]

That’s what my point was. I had mentioned fayforn not being based off a bug like craws weren’t, but got told immediately they were based off crawbugs, so wanted to prove my point that they weren’t

[viscid ridge]

Pharloom bay has to come to the game in the future, i will cry if it doesn't

[molten python]

I don't think "bugs" in the Hollow Knight world and "bugs" in the real world mean the same thing. Specifically, I don't think everything called bugs in Hollow Knight are related to what we call insects.

[foggy fractal]

yeah a lot of bugs in hollow knight are bug inspired rather than one to one

[gilded beacon]

Pharloom's Bay found dead in an alleyway next to coral gorge

[whole holly]

Fayforn has bit more similarity to moths than hunter to weavers

[proud swan]

definitely don't, since there are crowbugs. Bug is literally a lifeform in hollow knight and a loose term

[cedar skiff]

the inspiration has fun side effects though like the fleas acting like dogs because fleas tend to fuck with dogs

[viscid ridge]

Yeah definitely not, bug in HK is basically everything that kinda looks like a bug, while in real world it has strict definitions.

[whole holly]

it location in game files or just the name

[viscid ridge]

Pharloom bay shot 57 times in a alleyway

[mighty oyster]

Dragonfly 👁

[eternal sigil]

honestly the crawbugs are both the most egregious instance of a non-bug animal being turned into a bug, and also evidence that everything in setting is a bug/invertebrate

[proud swan]

You cant actually believe that. You HAVE to know this is just confirmation bias

[eternal sigil]

the Fay is a bug, the question then is what. If it is some mystical mountain dragon-bug, still a bug

[gilded beacon]

Coral Gorge makes me so sad, because it survived until 2021

[eternal sigil]

A Wyrm is still a giant worm, Shai-Hulud style, and bug-adjacent

[fringe comet]

yeah the craws are bug seemingly in name only

[pastel timber]

the more you try and find a distinction the more you just realise that "bug" means animal, and "not a bug" means a whole other form of life (god, vessel, silk construct), not just something with too many legs or whatever it actually means irl

[whole holly]

moths and fayforn species : similar eyes, both have fluff. Hunter and Weavers : just eyes

[eternal sigil]

fayforn has more ties to the mites than to moths, which has more ties than hunter to the weavers arguably

[proud swan]

Makes no sense. Both have legs. Both have shells. What the hell man.

Youre just cherrypicking stuff

[past cypress]

Who is Fayforn

[whole holly]

Fluffy plumage is defining characteristic and it still more than just eyes

[molten python]

Team Cherrypicking.

[fringe comet]

big fluffy creature that give the fay cloak

[gilded beacon]

Team Cherrypicking

[whole holly]

this made me laugh thank you so much

[gilded beacon]

No way we share the same braincell

[whole holly]

you are just mad you have nothing to cherrypick

[past cypress]

I didn't realise it had a name, is it from the files?

[proud swan]

How is fluffy plumage a definition of anything. We have drapeflies, fleas, and this is enough to show more evidence to the contrary than "a spirit has 6 eyes"

[eternal sigil]

that big thing atop Mount Fay you get double jump from

[lethal burrow]

wyrm, drake, wyvern, dragon.

[pastel timber]

the weavers bigged up fayforn so much "it will pass its judgement there, just know death is as likely as anything else" and it gives you a big fluffy cloak to stay warm <3

[cedar skiff]

hornet mustve been cheesing the entire time

[whole holly]

drapeflies and fleas don't count they don't have same characteristics, like eyes you seem to base you headcanons around, and it is not just spirit it is many non-weaver spiders too

[fringe comet]

uhh i dont actually know how we know the name, i think files?

[lethal burrow]

Everybody knows Weaver's have six eyes and eight legs

[pastel timber]

double jump cloak description

[fringe comet]

there we go

[proud swan]

dude its not about headcanon. I put forward a theory based on similarity only exactly like you are saying. You have as much evidence as I do or even less, because at least theres the Hunter dialogue. Im not even comparing theories btw, you were the one to point it out

[pastel timber]

actually i should throw this out there, the mossbag discord server has a google doc with the full silksong script pinned in its ss lore channel if anyone wants that to be able to search through

[fringe comet]

yeah thats a helpful doc

[proud swan]

wait which mossbag discord server?

[whole holly]

i have more evidence than you because yuor only argument was eyes

[lethal burrow]

... the official one?

[fringe comet]

the main one

[pastel timber]

mossbag and friends

[proud swan]

Im asking cause I dont have it

[pastel timber]

oh well its october, "scarebag & fiends"

idk if you can drop invite links in this discord you normally cant in bigger servers i imagine its linked in his channel desc or video descs

[lethal burrow]

sent a dm

[proud swan]

me: neither of us has good evidence and Im willing to agree with you
you: my evidence is good because wings and not eyes

dude this is literal confirmation bias

[pastel timber]

ok that checks out

[whole holly]

that is mischaracterizing my point, your comparison stemmed from eyes, mine did from eyes as well as plumage , i don't think it is enough evidence but it is still more than yours

[lethal burrow]

Everybody calm down and relist your entire theories in a single message so everybody knows what's going on

trust me, it's helpful.

[fringe comet]

yeah whats the debate here?

[pastel timber]

youre both going "both of these theories are super weak" but one of you is saying "yeah but mines less weak than yours" just give it up i promise its not worth it

[lethal burrow]

give em a couple minutes hopefully they can compile bullet points

[proud swan]

ok lets count stuff to see if a theory is in any way more evidence based than the other:

theory: fayforn is a moth

fayforn has fluffy plumage like moths
fayforn has round eyes like moths

against your theory: several other bugs have round eyes and fluffy characteristics, including fluffy plumage

theory: hunter is part weaver

hunter identifies with hornet (a hunter like me?)
hunter has six eyes like all confirmed weavers
hunters mark look like weaver body (a reach)

against: there are other bugs with 6 eyes and there are weaver descendants with two eyes

[lethal burrow]

Stick to representing your own theory and let them do the same

[proud swan]

sorry I started writing it before

[maiden meteor]

tbh Hunter being weaver is a tad too far fetched

[proud swan]

just so you guys know: my point is that neither of the theories have sound evidence for them

[whole holly]

actually he also said that i had same or less evidence than him

[silver spire]

WAIT I JUST REALIZED

[pastel timber]

do you really want to spend your afternoon arguing about that though

[silver spire]

THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HORNET :OOOOOOOOOOO THATS ACTUALLY CRAZY OML

[fringe comet]

hunter probs istn a weaver imo, too different in appearence and i think there would be a clue in one of his hunter's journal notes if he was meant to be one

[pastel timber]

confirmation that the pale king is the "white wyrm", really makes me wonder about the battle of blackwyrm

[silver spire]

blackwyrm is void wyrm fr

[whole holly]

"theory: fayforn is a moth" "theory: hunter may be weaver" you are objectively falsely representing yourself as more nuanced and open to discussion

[maiden meteor]

Blackwyrm is void wyrm

[fringe comet]

fun to speculate on blackwyrm, unfortunetely we have nothing but a name

[gentle aspen]

what up

[silver spire]

what about blackbarrens

[lethal burrow]

both of the theories suck let's just talk about something else

[fringe comet]

hey joker

[pastel timber]

my current pet theory of void being "anti-life" like how antimatter is a mirror image to matter unironically would make this incredibly interesting

[proud swan]

Im with you actually this ie enough for me

[maiden meteor]

Why does Growl darken so much when using vengeful spirit

it looks almost like void possession a bit?

[fringe comet]

hard to say, i dont think void is involved in this case

[pastel timber]

probably to contrast the brightness of the concentrated soul, like how things behind a lamp look darker

[proud swan]

the theory was that hunter is part weaver so you may be right, Im fixing it

[spring escarp]

Wait a fucking second.

[gentle aspen]

no

[spring escarp]

The snare setter is not just a quest item?

[maiden meteor]

I think Hunter is just chillin

[lethal burrow]

guys what's up with this platform? Am I right?

[molten python]

We don't even know if the Blackwyrm is a creature. Did the Battle of Waterloo involve a creature called the Waterloo?

[pastel timber]

nope its a red tool

[whole holly]

in Fayforn discussion multiple species were discussed as Fayforn being similar to, that's it, i always acknowledged Fayforn was separate species and only discussed what species could it be closest to, while you straight up said hunter was half weaver (hesitating to compromise on anything else) and i compromised saying it was most likely Spider Species (Huntsman Spider)

[spring escarp]

I didn't notice this

[lethal burrow]

yes and it was awesome

[fringe comet]

the fabeled waterloo, decimater of the french armies

[maiden meteor]

so evil of TC to permanently remove it after Soul and Silk quest

[spring escarp]

Decimator, decimatrix.

[vagrant wadi]

can anyone explain in max 5 sentences the lore of ss

[pastel timber]

it would be so cool though imagine a void based wyrm god the perfect opposite of PK

[spring escarp]

Yeah the pale king charm at least was useless

[whole holly]

Dyno bot is higher being

[fringe comet]

i used it once in one run, its ok lol

[spring escarp]

idk why my message was deleted.... the wait time is longer now?????

[maiden meteor]

famously battle of Stalingrad had Stalinator 3000 decimate nazi army

[pastel timber]

grandma silk dropped into pharloom and uplifted some spiders
spiders didnt like being controlled so they rebelled by putting her in a coma
grandma silk slowly woke up and started puppeting the bugs, and kidnapping weavers to bind their strength
hornet is one of the kidnapped weavers, who climbs the citadel to fight her
shamans try to drown her in void, but hornet has to go and cut her cocoon loose before pharloom collapses

[spring escarp]

Fucking 15 seconds kill me, this is literally 45 times slower than I type.

[vagrant wadi]

tuff

[spring escarp]

15 seconds is a human right violation.

[maiden meteor]

TC cannot allow too much theorizing, or we might dig too deep

[lethal burrow]

there was a silk mother she wanted daughters. She ascended some certain bugs into daughters They got mad because they (maybe) perceived they were lied to about being real daughters so they put grandmother silk to sleep and ruled for a time, but grandmother silk started to wake up so some of them left and some of them stayed and then one of them that left had hornet who was captured because of her silk stuff and brought to pharloom

[pastel timber]

if you dig underneath TC's office thats where the irl abyss is

[lethal burrow]

Can you make the timer on the chat a little bit more lenient?

[gentle aspen]

I’ll make it longer

[whole holly]

dig or dive deep into void, and meet team cherry

[maiden meteor]

nah there’s just Hornet x Shakra yuri evidence

[whole holly]

he wants people to think before they type, thanks JoJoker

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silksong-silk-song-flea-dog-gif-16633619138747869746

[silver spire]

fr

[rich hemlock]

Remind me which HK ending seems canon at the moment?

[pastel timber]

there were like 3 people in chat earlier 15 second slowmode was crazy

[silver spire]

also why do ss channels have timers, but hk dont

[silver spire]

Embrce the void is most likely

[maiden meteor]

DNM and EtV

[proud swan]

DUDE I GOT RESPOND TO THIS.

ain't no way you really believe this. how is that not compromising. I talked about coincidences, recognized your argument and changed my opinion. I literally said I agreed with you and said other stuff was coincidence. I have no idea why you are having a feud with me

im not talking about this anymore

[lethal burrow]

embrace the void seems most likely

[pastel timber]

p5 most likely, but its left intentionally vague so dnm could be true either

[maiden meteor]

I lean towards EtV

[pastel timber]

slowmode at 5 seconds god bless you mods 🙏

[molten python]

There is this pilgrim called Sherma. He meets a wise ancient benevolent gate that opens after hearing Sherma's song. Sherma goes through the Grand Gates and reaches Songclave. Sherma wants to help his fellow pilgrims so he looks for healing supples in Whiteward. After the Caretaker left, Sherma became the new caretaker of Songclave.

[lethal burrow]

we should have a channel called the Colosseum, where two people that are arguing can be sent until they resolve their differences

[maiden meteor]

maybe there’s just Hunter Guild or something

[proud swan]

Yeah I assume its just coincidence. It looks like ribs, and ribs may be a hunter motif anyhow

[whole holly]

maybe you compromised, but overall discussion was full of participants insisting it, not your fault

[proud swan]

Hunter guild definitely exists cause its the same symbol Nuu uses though

[molten python]

They fight in co-op Silksong and the winner is right and the loser is wrong.

[molten python]

We know there's a pinterest guild at least.

[fringe comet]

i lean ETV but i dont think DNM can be completely ruled out

[lethal burrow]

that's not how you spell that

[pastel timber]

the pinstresses are unique to pharloom though, the hunters mark appears in two separate kingdoms

[fringe comet]

depends on your interpretation of Shade Lord

[pastel timber]

its funny how 90% of questions here are just, depends on how you interpret it

[fringe comet]

haha yeah thats the way it goes

[molten python]

Isn't that because Nuu's grandfather comes from Hallownest?

[pastel timber]

huh what wheres that said

[molten python]

Hunter's Journal entry for Nuu.

[proud swan]

Wait what?

[pastel timber]

nuu has an entry???

[foggy fractal]

nah

[fringe comet]

what line are you referring to?

[lethal burrow]

everybody loves grandfather olld

[molten python]

If you kill her yeah.

[proud swan]

Ok this gotta be silkposting

[fringe comet]

silkposting

[proud swan]

You baited me hard 😭😭

[foggy fractal]

reminds me of that kill elderbug mod

[pastel timber]

i cant send images they wont load </3

[rich hemlock]

So canonically HK is alive?

[proud swan]

If theres one true ending yes

[pastel timber]

Supposedly? We don’t really know what happens between the ending and silksong beginning, assumedly it’s been a while

[eternal sigil]

well, the Mask Maker does so as well and Mr. Mushroom converses with the thing implying it at least has "person" levels of intelligence

[drifting trellis]

Is lifeblood banned in Pharloom too?

[silver spire]

no

[eternal sigil]

I think lifeblood came to Pharloom after the point at which the Citadel had any ability to do anything about it

[pastel timber]

Maybe it loves us because we love it (big fluffy thing)

[proud swan]

I thought the same, but time wouldn't really be important since THK probably has hornets lifespan

[pastel timber]

Yeah doesn’t the alchemist say it’s not native to pharloom him and his assistant planted it recently

[eternal sigil]

its introduction by Zango to the lower tunnels is implied to be fairly recent

[drifting trellis]

Why do some Pharloom bugs like Shakra wear masks?

[proud swan]

He does speak about salt-stricken waters, but I can't see how that could be related to Hallownest. Does anyone have any idea? It has to be native to hallownest, otherwise there has to be more than one abyss creature

[pastel timber]

Well saying there “has to” be an abyss creature wherever lifeblood is native is jumping the gun a bit, we have no idea what it is

[fringe comet]

mask lore is a little nebulous but clearly important based on the fact that mask makers are present in Pharloom and Hallownest, its said granting one a face sort of grants them an identity/sense of self? its up to interpretation, like most things
i dont have an answer for shakra specifically

[proud swan]

Yeah you're right. As far as we know the abyss creature could be a result of lifeblood or even another lifeform infected by it (most likely given the effects)

Can I unjump this gun?

[fringe comet]

consider it unjumped

[proud swan]

I do wanna know what part of hallownest could be meant by salt-stricken waters though.

[pastel timber]

OH

the rune harp at the pale lake that says the waters are "rejunevating"

its because the water has lifeblood in it

[proud swan]

BRUH

WHAT

[silver spire]

source? oh nvm

[proud swan]

the source is water. jk

[pastel timber]

ok it doesnt say rejuvenating but it adds a lot of context to this tablet

im gonna go visit fleatopia in game see if i can chase this down a rabbit hole or if theres absolutely zero indication there

[proud swan]

Its a bit far from wormways so it is a long shot

[pastel timber]

"it was discovered at the farthest edge of pharloom .... i brought it to these caves"

[proud swan]

and the rocks of pale lake look somewhat salt rock, doesnt it? its different from any other

[pastel timber]

wait but then why does the materium say plasmium is foreign to pharloom whgat

inconsistency alert someone sound the alarm

[fierce jasper]

why did Groal slime out the shaman?

[pastel timber]

to steal its soul power to use against the citadel

[fringe comet]

well, its a foreign substance to pharloom, that was found on the farthest edges of pharloom

[proud swan]

do we have to assume pale lake is still Pharloom? after all its after the ducts

[fringe comet]

those two statements dont need to inherently contradict each other?

[fierce jasper]

hmmmm ye sense made

[proud swan]

I agree

[pastel timber]

i suppose pale lake could be just outside of the boundaries of "Pharloom"

[fringe comet]

like... if it was already foreign and showed up at the farthest edges some other way, then it was found by the alchemist

[proud swan]

Im betting it has something to do with weavers, because we have an actual harp in pale lake. As far as we know they were the only one to be there before

[fierce jasper]

it was def alr in pharloom and just discoverd by the dude (alchmist idk man)

[fringe comet]

right, not nessecarily not foreign though

[edgy barn]

Eva does recognize whenever Hornet is overdosing on plasmium. She does not like it.

[proud swan]

Wait she does? This is huge then

[fringe comet]

eva rightfully fears foreign contaminants probably due to her vulnerable nature

but yes the weavers would have had to have known about it already

[edgy barn]

Come no closer! I sense the forbidden blood coursing through you, that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image.
Whether it was imbibed willingly or not, none shall be allowed into this chamber while so afflicted. Begone!

[proud swan]

To be fair the waters could be 'cleansed' by the current somehow, since there are waterfalls there in the background. But why would weavers be interested in it being clean is the thing for me

[proud swan]

Yeah she seems to know it very well

[pastel timber]

ok the salt waters do cleanse away maggots but theres no reaction to being lifeblood infected

[proud swan]

How many npcs recognize lifeblood?

[eternal sigil]

she also has a warning response against the root parasite

[past cypress]

Where does it say plasmium was found in Pale Lake?

[edgy barn]

Only her I believe. Yarnaby does have special dialogue but Hornet is the one that tells her about it

[proud swan]

Wait so we have confirmation the water is clean because of salt? This is one hell of a coincidence

[edgy barn]

The pale lake waters are salty?

[proud swan]

She's the only dialogue in the entire game with the "overblue" tag, this can't bea coincidence

[pastel timber]

yeah

[edgy barn]

Where does it say that?

[proud swan]

We do not know for sure, it looks like salt and lifeblood was found in "salt-stricken waters". Having no maggots is a good piece of evidence for it I guess

The original theory block pointed out was that "salt-stricken waters" could mean the pale lake (as far as I understood it), which why its healing (because of lifeblood)

rune harp

[edgy barn]

Does lifeblood interact with the maggots in any way?

[pastel timber]

give me two seconds im gonna go find the excerpt in-game while im here

[pastel timber]

not that i can tell

[proud swan]

theres this one

"Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone,Build those tools of brilliant mind imagined,Aid us when our Silk has waned."

Where is it from?

[silver spire]

i always assumed that bilewater's water used to all be like that before the sittydel

and pale lake was just one example of what bile water used to be like

[molten python]

Weavenest Karn, no?

[silver spire]

is that the wormways one or the bilewater one

[proud swan]

ITS WORMWAYS

[molten python]

Bilewater.

The one with the Ruined Tool.

[silver spire]

oh

oh the one w/ silkshot o ok

[proud swan]

Ok I actually think this is further evidence, because its just under the pale lake. Why would she sit between salt and stone?

[molten python]

I mean Bilewater and Putrified Ducts are connected.

[pastel timber]

specifically you get this from the bilewater weavenest in the same room where we see the pale lakes cleansing water (it removes maggots, i just checked)

[molten python]

The wastewater from the Sittydel goes through the ducts and into Bilewater.

[silver spire]

how would it prove lifeblood is there tho, since it acts parasitically

[molten python]

Does other normal water remove maggots or no?

[twin dragon]

So chat, why does gms need all those weaverborn shipped in

[proud swan]

Ok I think this is 100% proof. I dont think it can get better than that. Does anyone have any objections?

[pastel timber]

we know that lifeblood was first discovered in pharloom on its "furthest edge" deep within "salt-stricken waters", we also know that the pale lake, in the way top right corner, is also saltwater, we can put two and two together

[molten python]

They betrayed her and escaped her wrath.

[pastel timber]

gonna go check now

[edgy barn]

I believe she is absorbing them to regain lost strength

[proud swan]

• Pale Lake water has salt
• which is the reason its clean, since maggots cant survive in salt

We have proof now, right?

[pastel timber]

as close to "proof" as we'll ever get yeah

[fierce jasper]

thats like 120 huge fleas of distance

[proud swan]

That's amazing, great finding

[pastel timber]

yeah but theres literally nothing there please team cherry give us more stuff

[fierce jasper]

how about a 120 huge flea boss arena?

[proud swan]

Now we have a concrete reason to say lifeblood was found on pale lake (or near it)

[twin dragon]

Weaverborn aint done nun

[edgy barn]

Now watch it all fall apart by maggots getting removed by greymoor's murky ahh water.

[pastel timber]

this is what im about to check i'll report back in a moment

[proud swan]

Im pretty sure its not

But I may be wrong

[molten python]

How do benches repel maggots, huh?

[pastel timber]

greymoor water does kill maggots

[fierce jasper]

would the citadel have tryed mabye dumping a bunch of salt into bilewater? that could be a extra reason why groal is so pissed at them

[proud swan]

I dont think it all fell apart though

[fierce jasper]

wowzers

[proud swan]

Its a reasonable assumption since sinners road is above greymoor

[limpid summit]

Sitting on benches is a short representation of Hornet or TK taking a longer rest in HK
Enemies “respawn” (more come in), NPCs move around

[edgy barn]

Yarnaby says that maggots go away with rest. I supoose that means they eventually die off outside water.

[molten python]

They dumped fucking bilewater into Bilewater, I think that's it.

[pastel timber]

no not at all, pale lake is clearly the water source for all of pharloom

[proud swan]

yeah thats what im thinking. maybe all clean water has salt in it

[limpid summit]

Either Hornet removes the maggots while resting or they do just shrivel up

[fierce jasper]

ahhh i see so no salt dumping?

[proud swan]

it does weaken it a little bit though, why would some water be infected?

[pastel timber]

or maybe the salt isnt what kills the maggots, and its just fresh water that leeches them off, and the greymoor water is filtered through rocks it falls down

[fierce jasper]

mabye its a slight combination of the both with some water being very pure and other having lots of salt that ALSO kill the maggots

[edgy barn]

The Sinnee's Road-Bilewater-Putrified Ducts regions is not polluted because it has maggots. It has maggots because its polluted

[brazen breach]

do you guys think Hornet is literally half weaver and that Herrah was like their queen or something or a very strong weaver or wtv or that her being a weaver child is just metaphorical and that they taught her how to use silk?

[molten python]

I think the entire salt thing is unrelated.

[proud swan]

You have a very nice point. Can we prove this causality chain?

[fierce jasper]

u sould study at weavers university

[proud swan]

Oh sorry I just thought about it its obvious

[molten python]

Seems obvious.

[abstract rivet]

hey so why sands of karak fell

I’m still confused

[molten python]

Why would the Sittydel be creating maggots and dumping them into Bilewater, maggots thrive in pollution, and Bilewater was full of pollution.

[molten python]

No water.

[foggy fractal]

nah Hornet is half weaver biologically

[pastel timber]

assumedly the water source of pharloom is the pale lake, the citadel is a big metal monster sat in the way of the water flow from pale lake to sands, hence why sands and steps are so dry and dead

[abstract rivet]

oh oof

[proud swan]

It was full of water. Once water was gone people couldnt live in it except for some lifeforms

[abstract rivet]

wheres the pale lake again i forgor

[molten python]

If you've gone to the Coral Tower, that's what the Sands of Karak used to be like.

[pastel timber]

way top right

[proud swan]

its the fleatopia one, right far edge

[abstract rivet]

ah yeah

[fierce jasper]

they just dumped all their waste into once clean bilewater and after a time of pollution the maggots formed/settled in

[abstract rivet]

damn that lake stretches that long??

[proud swan]

do we know more about the water source of pharloom being the pale lake?

[abstract rivet]

Im considering Radiance might be better than GMS

[molten python]

Also just fun fact to add, the Muckroaches in Sinner's Road are grown-up forms of the muckmaggots in the muckwater.

[brazen breach]

I think I'm leaning more towards that as well but the two games seem a bit crossed about it, it seems like in the 1st game Herrah wasnt a weaver and that Hornet was just raised by them but SS seems to indicate more that she's literally a weaver

[fierce jasper]

yee i think i read that in the journal entry

[foggy fractal]

yep

[proud swan]

yeah Herrah is 100% a weaver no doubt about that, Hornet is seen as half weaver several times

[abstract rivet]

I have a theory that people who enter the underworks are the pilgrims that made their way from Sinners Road and Bilewater

It has to be some punishment

[pastel timber]

theres the wet areas on the right and the dry areas on the left, that and we see the waterfalls from pale lake in two rooms, shakras master and the back of the bilewater weavenest, we know water from the pale lake is flowing down into bilewater (and then assumedly sinners road and greymoor) so its not a stretch to assume given that evidence that pharlooms water supply flows in through the pale lake

[edgy barn]

There's also an intermediary state called a Slubberlug, which you find in one room in bilewater

[pastel timber]

herrah is a pure weaver she just looks weird

[brazen breach]

I guess they just retconned that or something

[abstract rivet]

Or do the pilgrims who climb the citadel and pass last judge just get sent to underworks either way? How do they enter citadel if the elevator leads to underworks

[molten python]

Yes, and Bloatroaches which are an obese offshoot of Muckroaches with sizzling bile in their stomachs.

[brazen breach]

since Herrah in HK is referred to as "a common beast"

[proud swan]

Ok this is not only a fun fact. This is probably the reason why there are so many maggots, muckroaches were created to be food

[abstract rivet]

the greymoor water might be waste ngl

[molten python]

Dry areas on the left? Sands of Karak is dry now but it was full of water in the past.

[pastel timber]

elevators broken, pilgrims get given the citadel shawls and eventually lucky few get elevated to be members of the choir

[fierce jasper]

wait so the cycle of life is muckmaggot>slubberlug>muchroach>bloatroach?

[proud swan]

So the reason bilewater and sinnersroad are dumps is because there werent enough bugs to eat all the food? Is that it? That would make a lot of sense

[pastel timber]

i still think its cooler if its falling silk from the citadel im a believer

[proud swan]

Since muckroaches were created basically to be food

[pastel timber]

yes! and what changed was they put a huge metal behemoth in between the sands and the pale lake, implying that that cut off the water supply from the pale lake, and thats why its dry now

[molten python]

Muckroaches don't grow into Bloatroaches. Bloatroaches are just obese Muckroaches with sizzling bile in their stomach.

[fierce jasper]

i see i see. truely disguisting

[brazen breach]

SS changed her appearance a bit I think, since ||in the act 3 flashback she looks different and slimmer and lankier|| (ACT 3 SPOILER)

[pastel timber]

oh my god it literally calls them obese 😭

[proud swan]

Ok this actually clears up a lot of things, because I see this as being the only possible explanation

[abstract rivet]

To be fair that was when Herrah wasnt a dreamer

Maybe the body changed a little as time passed

[pastel timber]

it fits with the theme of "the citadel destroyed ecosystems" too

[brazen breach]

yeah that could also be it

[fierce jasper]

i think it also says that they only fly cuz of the sizzlin stuff in their stomache

[proud swan]

I mean she could have changed, lots of time. For all we know hornet is centuries or thousands years old

[pastel timber]

mhm, the "noxious gases"

[abstract rivet]

There is no clear timeframe in Hollow Knight

[fierce jasper]

so if it wasen't for that they would just lay on the floor

[molten python]

The Pale Lake is not the water source for what was in the present-day Sands of Karak.

[abstract rivet]

To some bugs Hallownest died yesterday to some it died in a century, but the timeframe has never been stated

[pastel timber]

how do we know that

[brazen breach]

Hornet does seem to be really old but thats about all we know, there was that whole joke about Elderbug being one of the youngest bugs in the game since he wasnt around for stag stations

[proud swan]

Yeah the only thing we know is that pale beings tend to live more than other bugs, probably weavers too I guess

[brazen breach]

so its pretty ambiguous

[molten python]

"At water's source, and coral's heart, our lord born last to rule." The lord here being Crust King Khann.

[edgy barn]

Yeah so the water's source would be the spot coral tower is built at

[pastel timber]

what shut off the water then?

just time?

[abstract rivet]

maybe it evoporated

or Lace drank it

[brazen breach]

im thinking ||GMS|| drained the water for the citadel

[abstract rivet]

or people dried it up

[proud swan]

maybe teh Slab

[molten python]

Maybe the Sittydel used up the water or something? They dumped the wastewater into Bilewater which turned into a swamp.

[fierce jasper]

ig so cuz dont think the sittadel had anything at that part

[brazen breach]

i like that we all have different ways of spelling citadel

[twin dragon]

citadel was built around GMS being asleep

[abstract rivet]

Ngl i would be sad if i did all this work to get into the Citadel just to see this place aint Heaven and isnt good

[fierce jasper]

wouldt they just go to pale lake for water instead of sands?

[twin dragon]

probably either weavers or high order expelled waste

[abstract rivet]

Are choir bugs slaves like tf do they gain from being apart of the choir

[molten python]

Why would they go to the Pale Lake for water?

[pastel timber]

a water source capable of sustaining the coral kingdom wouldve been renewable, idk if it was just a huge reservoire that eventually ran out

[fierce jasper]

cuz it lake

[pastel timber]

cause theres water there and not anywhere else

[proud swan]

You guys mean this is the water source?

[brazen breach]

was it? I thought the ||weavers made her fall asleep after|| but i could be wrong. either way she influences the bugs through her silk no?

[pastel timber]

supposedly?

[abstract rivet]

I think the cut off coral area in the trailer will be a DLC siniliar and a area similiar to Verdania-Lost Verdania

a memory area

[brazen breach]

I really hope so, the coral area looked so cool