sk-lore

[cyan salmon]

Thanks

[edgy barn]

Keep in mind a lot of the haunted bugs were dead husks already

[proud swan]

just the amount that did not serve his purpose though. its actually oil purification

[nimble kayak]

What would the real world analogy of Pins be as weapons?

[silk dirge]

true true

[pine garden]

spears I guess? Or at least Long pins are analogous to spears

[edgy barn]

Rapiers?

[proud swan]

You have a point. And some bugs died after act 3, maybe they couldn't handle void I guess

[pine garden]

I assume all normal bugs that were infected with Void will die if freed from it

maybe stronger bugs could survive but the normal bugs are probably getting absolutely shredded by the void when it takes control of them

[spring dagger]

I mean it is said void is there to gather soul so...

[midnight zinc]

This feels right, they’re not used as spears by enemies

[spark valve]

swords

[proud swan]

I don't think so. Voids grasp was based on the fact they were all silk infused

[pine garden]

the Hollow Knight did survive being free'd from the infection and stumbled out

[proud swan]

If haunting was over void would be too I guess

[edgy barn]

Also, they were already getting hit with the Haunting.

[muted lantern]

Also lace is called a fencer, and fencers use rapiers

[midnight zinc]

Vessels are built different tbh

[edgy barn]

Even then, void is not good for one's health

Ask the collector's buddy

[nimble kayak]

So then what would a Longpin be? Longrapiers aren't really a thing...

Would it just be a spear?

[midnight zinc]

His roommate

[proud swan]

Idk man I take some everyday

[pine garden]

my assumption is being infected by void absolutely melts a bug's insides, so even if from the outside the bug seems relatively okay

[nimble kayak]

Seems like a random weapon for Phantom to have

[midnight zinc]

Long sword lol

[spark valve]

pins are just swords generally

[pine garden]

they're chugged and thrown like spears

[nimble kayak]

Last I checked, you don't hold a longsword by the blade

[silk dirge]

javelins maybe

[midnight zinc]

You don’t know me, you don’t know how I get down

[silk dirge]

actually nah theres some of those in hallownest

[spark valve]

longpins aren't that different from hk's nail-lances they're spears but named like and modeled like the swords to be cohesive

[midnight zinc]

City of tears guards iirc

[pine garden]

Hornet throws the longpin like a spear, the pintress throws 3 of them at once like spears

[silk dirge]

i just dont think its worth trying to compare hollow knight weapons to irl weapons

like no one fights with a needle irl

[lethal burrow]

Hornet holds her needle by the blade in her idle animation

[nimble kayak]

prolly true lol

[spring dagger]

We do see the void tendrils lash around silk threads so, due to pharlooms' bugs having silk inside of them this is definitely a possibility

[proud swan]

You guys ever thought about the fact TK is probably never growing to the size of THK. Hes a lil guy forever

[silk dirge]

just a little guy

[midnight zinc]

You don’t carry buzzsaws on you for self defence?

[silk dirge]

oh sorry i do

[midnight zinc]

THK only grows because it was raised and trained by the Pale King

[pine garden]

the vessel growth supplements are lost knowledge with the passing of the Pale King

[nimble kayak]

What order did yall collect the Hearts in?

[pine garden]

nobody can recreate them anymore 😔

[silk dirge]

i throw them at freshman who take buses to their next class which is a 5 minute walk away when i need to get off campus

[pine garden]

Skarrsinger, the plant, Crust King Khan

then I found Green Prince and fucking killed him for no reason after getting the other 3 hearts, homophobic Hornet fr fr

[proud swan]

you ever thought about the fact that the pale king was literally a bodybuilder because he built a lot of bodies

[midnight zinc]

I went to Lost Verdania first because I got the Craw summons and it’s right there

Flintstones chewable vitamins was the OG theory

[limpid summit]

I wanted bum Nyleth’s heart on my wall

Did her last

[proud swan]

Tbh is more like a mercy kill. His memories are painful and his whole life was verdania and his lover. He dies dancing

[spring dagger]

Yeah and then hornet hangs the beating heart in her room like its a totally normal thing to have inside a home

[limpid summit]

Seth felt much more thematic with the everbloom

[edgy barn]

I used this same order

[pine garden]

really went "so uhmm... What do I do with this heart?" after Green Prince died, really was something when she just placed his heart on a shelf

[proud swan]

also killin widows/widowers seem a recurrent theme for hornet so maybe I new prejudice I guess

[midnight zinc]

It’s so funny that she frees him, only to enter into his mind to experience his most intimate memories, kills him, takes his heart, then keeps it. You’d think he killed her mother or smth

[nimble kayak]

Do yall think Nyleth or Karmelita makes more narrative sense to be the first of the three bosses?

[midnight zinc]

Then again the person who actually killed her mother she was totally cool with after lol

[pine garden]

I personally liked Nyleth and CKK's dream fights. Seth was a great fight and Nyleth herself was unique and decently fun to fight, not too hard. CKK was way too easy and at first I was really annoyed at the endless enemy gauntlets, but the Choral Chamber grew on me and eventually I started liking the gauntlet rushes, CKK himself had immaculate aura with his sick poses and great theme

[edgy barn]

Eh, I don't feel the order matters much narratively.

[silk dirge]

ckk is cool

i love coral bending

[midnight zinc]

Which boss has the most aura

In the whole game I mean

[silk dirge]

first sinner

[pine garden]

I'd say Nyleth first, Skarrsinger second and CKK last narrative wise, if I had to write Silksong as a linear story

[midnight zinc]

Valid

[silk dirge]

you cant match spending 1000 years in prison only to weave a fight dress in a second

[edgy barn]

The coral bending is set dressing, his actual method of attack is bumping and falling onto you.

[pine garden]

personally I'd put either CKK, Skarrsinger or First Sinner

[midnight zinc]

Yall are missing the obvious answer of Phantom

[nimble kayak]

Could you elaborate on your reasoning? I'm curious as to your thoughts

[proud swan]

Well, yes, but hornets claiming the hearts has a very sad tone to it. She frees him when he does not want to, he ends up in the ruins of verdania reminiscing about the past. He dies with a vivid, beautiful memory of what his past truly was like. All kills except from coral king seem more like euthanasia

[edgy barn]

I love Phantom because no double damage. Such a breath of fresh air.

[proud swan]

He could not remember verdania very well. Hornet messing with his memories is the reason why he can remember it

[midnight zinc]

Run back is quick too

[edgy nebula]

hard to think ckk ruled half of pharloom considering how little hes expanded on

[nimble kayak]

Have you heard Phantom singing with the Needolin?

It's a stark contrast to her battle cries

[midnight zinc]

I have not, I was too busy barely avoiding attacks to bother trying that

Lemme look that up

[nimble kayak]

Yeah go look it up, she's got a surprisingly smooth voice

[midnight zinc]

Holy shit, that’s angelic

+120 aura

[nimble kayak]

I think Phantom is prolly my favorite character from the game, which is amusing considering how little of her we get

But Soul Master also gets not much stuff, and I fw his lore too, so that's just a trend lol

[lethal burrow]

I wish we knew who imprisoned the first sinner

[proud swan]

Also remember that sacrifices remind her of our little guy. She's definitely not happy with taking the lives of whats left of the old rulers. I swear these snail shamans were lucky they died when she was sleeping

[silk dirge]

yeah doesnt hornet say shes got no love for the act of sacrifice

i think to huntress

[proud swan]

Yeah me too. Is so sad that they say it's lost to time. But again, this is a theme of both hk games

[pine garden]

Nyleth first cause Seth's cool, he could be like a story benchpoint where Hornet's "dreamer" slaying begins, and Nyleth herself is animalistic and lacks speech, so it could give the readers the impression that all the "dreamers" are like her. I'd put CKK last cause he has the whole "fought until the bitter end" theme with him and his soldiers, and he has a lot of aura. Skarrsinger in between, would be a pretty cool character to meet after killing Nyleth, as she'd contract by A) being alive and B) looking completely differently in her prime than her current state

[proud swan]

Yes

[proud swan]

Phantom is literally begging for death

She is THK coded

Show me strength, spider...
Forgotten...
Discarded...
Silk stretched thin...
Shell stiffened...
Claws quivering...
Free me from this fading fate...
Free me!

[nimble kayak]

Im a lil confused as to her head shape

[pine garden]

THK? The Hollow Knight?

[nimble kayak]

Was it once like Lace, or was it always spiky/frayed?

[pine garden]

I assume always like that cause she was a failed subject

[proud swan]

Yeah. It's more of a mercy fight.

[limpid summit]

I think it was once like lace cause she was never formed to completion

She probably has black face white eyes behind the mask like lace

[proud swan]

What I think is interesting about her is that she has a mask. Makes me think she is not pure silk like lace. Also, she turned grey - and I doubt Lace is able to age

[pine garden]

Phantom looks more like she's wearing rags

[severe siren]

Its her baggy wrinkly skin from being so damn old

[pine garden]

at least to me

[proud swan]

I mean yes, but Hornet says she turned grey with age. So might as well not be

[pine garden]

true

[nimble kayak]

Anyone know who the singer for Karmelita is?

[cyan salmon]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0fLPEzLmBFSRuzEyQct3AR?si=xvC4biuXTKe0JwteaSDQ5Q

[proud swan]

Siobhan Owen

https://www.facebook.com/SiobhanOwenMusic/posts/pfbid0Dtk6W8pzdE8SstGC1r1LmdZj9cC2qxedT6Jg3z1hBZ2qfC5NwFu1ijXTcdMV13Etl

[nimble kayak]

:0

[silk dirge]

nice

[pine garden]

nice she played the choir in the Second Sentinels boss fight

[proud swan]

She is also the harpist on Moss Grotto, thats nice. I did not know that

[silk dirge]

i dont think thats the fight that song is known for...

[nimble kayak]

omg

[pine garden]

Second Sentinel is so cool, female sapient morally good hot combat robots the best gender in fiction

[nimble kayak]

trobbios va is ginger

this explains so much...

[proud swan]

Lots of talented people involved in this game. The same person that voiced shakra voiced like a dozen of other bugs lol

[edgy nebula]

his va's name is also trobbiani

[pine garden]

what else was it used for? The high halls gauntlet?

[proud swan]

yeah!

[silk dirge]

yeah

and also the random ass arena before vaults

[pine garden]

"What should we name this character?"
"Dunno what's his VA's last name?"

[proud swan]

that very one yes

[edgy nebula]

remember when we thought scrollreaders, vaultkeepers, and lightbearers were gonna be a bossfight? 💔

[pine garden]

I personally really liked the high halls gauntlet, probably my favorite gauntlet in the game, it was memorable and difficult but mostly fair

[nimble kayak]

The music is peak

[edgy nebula]

they made trobbio because of trobbiani actually iirc, i dont remember why though

[nimble kayak]

Do yall think The Choir or Fourth Chorus gives off Soul Master vibes more? In terms of music

[silk dirge]

the choir

[proud swan]

Maybe hes a friend? Hes also an indie game developer

[edgy nebula]

makes sense, probably a friend

[silk dirge]

he playtested silksong

[proud swan]

TC case makes me think I can drop everything in my life and just be an indie game developer. Such a nice story

[nimble kayak]

Why's that?

[proud swan]

Hes the reason for double damage then. He SHOULD be tormented

[foggy fractal]

Matthew Trobbiani did playtesting and voiceacting

[silk dirge]

fourth chorus kinda reminds me but not a whole lot

[nimble kayak]

Fair enough

[foggy fractal]

dawg the two play testing leads are literally in this server blame them 👹

[proud swan]

Trobbio is a really fun boss also, lorewise hes not deep but I would put him in S tier

[nimble kayak]

I've got a dnd boss themed on Soul Master, but his phase 2 music is...less than pleasant to listen to, so I'm trying to find an alternative from the SS ost

[pine garden]

lore wise he's just killing bugs for the love of the game, he's not even haunted I think

[feral inlet]

He’s not haunted??

[lethal burrow]

Remember when we thought dreamers were gonna be a boss fight

In the ancient days

[pine garden]

let me check, dont think he has silk threads behind him when needolin-ing him

[silk dirge]

no

[proud swan]

ayo play testing leads I got a message FOR YOU. I actually though silksong was very balanced and really appreciate you took your time in helping create such a wonderful piece of videogame history. thanks

[silk dirge]

i think everyone here was like 12 when hk released

[edgy nebula]

he isnt, he directly talks to hornet

[proud swan]

yeah I showed them

[feral inlet]

I was like 17-18 when hk came out, I had no beard when I finished hk, I have a full one now

[pine garden]

yeah no threads behind him, he's not haunted at all he's just doing it for the love of it

[edgy nebula]

this screenshot is amazing

does he just strike that pose when you needolin him

[pine garden]

yeah

[feral inlet]

Dude wasn’t saving nobody

Sick photo tho

[lethal burrow]

he also tries to match the song you're playing with his singing

[edgy nebula]

lmaoo

[proud swan]

Its just acting bro

He doesnt wanna kill you

Truth is we die because of skill issue

[muted lantern]

hornet seems to disagree in hunters journal

[pine garden]

I died for like an hour to Tormented Trobbio

Trobbio boss fight? One of the better and more fun, but very easy boss fight

Tormented Trobbio? Fucking hell those balls man

[turbid pulsar]

both trobbios are silly ash

[proud swan]

Yeah you're right

Its also really fun that she calls him a thespian

[pine garden]

she talks quite fancy, makes sense given her royal upbringing and her age

[proud swan]

that means athens is canon now

[edgy nebula]

he took me awhile, he isnt unfair though, which i like

[proud swan]

yeah he was one of the worst act 3 bosses for me

[pine garden]

I was just super fuckign tired when fighting Trobbio, it was like 2-3 am after binging SS for like 8 hours that day, I wasn't in the best state

I was tilted to the point that I gave up on Tormented Trobbio, went up the mountain to fight Pintress but kept dying for 30 minutes and just gave up that night

you know its bad if Pintress was giving me so much trouble

[proud swan]

every body in mountain fay was once a very motivated bug

I get you

[pine garden]

Tormented Trobbio's main annoying thing was dealing with his massive balls, otherwise a reasonable boss fight

also I was still a reaper cultist at that time so my DPS was DOGSHIT so every boss fight would last ages

[proud swan]

Something about Trobbio makes me think he was originally the boss we should beat to get wings. Hes the only one with wings

[chrome atlas]

Doesn't Ass Jim have tiny wings?

[proud swan]

Come on

No need to destroy my argument here

At least in such a brutal manner

Imagine if you had to kill buttcheeks to get tiny little wings

And when you wore them your charged attack would be literally hornet throwing ass

[chrome atlas]

yo hang on a minute...

[pine garden]

doesn't do much damage as Hornet lacks ass

[proud swan]

It IS on character if you think about it. she STINGS

[pine garden]

on the other hand if it was Lace thought

[proud swan]

GMS ass attack any day

[left rivet]

guys... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2wbceeMyjbs

[proud swan]

Hey I just had a thought. What if Trobbio is trying to mimic NKG?

[left rivet]

Who knew cogwork core bugs were THAT sentient

[proud swan]

Attacks are VERY similar. And Trobbio is literally an actor. He dresses read. He wears red eyelashes

[edgy barn]

How would he know the grimm troupe, let alone the nightmare king?

[chrome atlas]

he played hollow knight

[edgy nebula]

nymm is secretly his father

[left rivet]

i mean hes most likely just really into red and likes pyrotechnics but i understand ur point

[stray scaffold]

It's an interesting idea, but I agree that it'd be weird for him to know

[pine garden]

what if he's Grim

[proud swan]

grimm troupe are travellers, like actors. idk

[turbid pulsar]

i dont think the grimm troupe would do all this

[stray scaffold]

Side tangent, is it a hot take to say that I actually kinda like the red memory sequence?

[pine garden]

Braun or whatever his name was, he became a completely different person after getting kicked out, what if Grim got kicked out and that's Trobbio

[edgy nebula]

no

[pine garden]

most people probably like the red memory sequence

[stray scaffold]

The old lore regulars hate it as far as I can tell

Because it proves a theory everyone assumed was noncanon

[proud swan]

Its a controversial one but I like it as well

daughter of three queens ftw

[spark valve]

red memory is ok its problems are less about the retcons and more about it not letting the best parts sit

[stray scaffold]

I agree with that, but that's not what you said before

Or maybe that was kirb idk

I like that there are some retcons

[edgy barn]

I like three queens but the part about the hive forging the strongest steel feels kind of weird in retrospective

[stray scaffold]

They just aren't all handled in the best ways

[spark valve]

if I could change it I'd swap wl and herrah, and remove vespa because vespa doesn't really have anything to say

[edgy nebula]

city of steel in tears rn

[edgy barn]

get them past city of tin first

[stray scaffold]

Vespa does kinda just show up and then leave, but the hive being there is obviously important for one reason or another

[silk dirge]

nah only a few people here hate it the vast majority of silksong players love it

[blissful harbor]

i kinda like herrah not having a larger role, really hammers home thst because she became a dreamer she really had no time with hornet

[edgy nebula]

living in the city of steel is lowkey scary imagine getting "Compressed"

[spark valve]

but she's by far the most important one

[silk dirge]

everyone had the same reaction to seeing the distant village elevator

[supple lava]

i like it mainly because im a path of pain enjoyer and it was nice to see the wingmoulds again

[proud swan]

Wait I had not idea

[silk dirge]

i mean how would she connect to getting the everbloom is my question

[stray scaffold]

Wingsmoulds kinda underrated ngl

[silk dirge]

bc herrah does not seem like the type of person to need an everbloom

[pine garden]

Vespa def should show up, I think her inclusion is inoffensive. Her main role was being the one who trained Hornet, while she doesn't say much, maybe TC tried to give her more dialogue and such but thought the Hive section would be too long or uninteresting, or make the Red Memory section as a whole a drag to go through so they kept her section short

[proud swan]

So GMS (or weavers idk) literally enslaved people by robbing of their bodies and putting into mechanisms

[spark valve]

the entirety of red memory is a handwave have wl give it to her then have hornet delve deeper into her memories anyways to see herrah

[silk dirge]

that could be interesting but idk that feels kinda anticlimactic

[stray scaffold]

Isn't the whole point about hornet revisiting her past as a whole and seeing it all together?

[edgy barn]

I find it funny that Hornet writes a journal entry for the wingsmould. As far as anyone living in Pharloom would be concerned, she just made that one up.

[silk dirge]

like why would hornet want to dive more after achieving her goal

[left rivet]

me neither but wow it checks out with EVERYTHING from why all machines are so sentient due to the silkflies in them (1 silkfly= 1 soul/mind; Every machine releases one on defeat)

[stray scaffold]

All the pieces sorta coming together, WL just being the last one

[silk dirge]

i doubt red memory is a particularly pleasant experience for hornet

[proud swan]

Yeah but what about cogwork dancers? No flies there. Is that intentional?

[left rivet]

she wanted for old times sake

[pine garden]

Cogwork dancers already have the soul of one of the Green Princes

[spark valve]

they're also made with a soul

[silk dirge]

that cutscene freeze frame is crazy

wrong reply again

[pine garden]

one of the Green Princes sacrificed himself to Pharloom, and his soul was split and put in the Cogwork Dancers

[silk dirge]

i swear i clicked the right message

[left rivet]

maybe... rememebre green prince's lover's soul was used. Maybe his silkfly was artificially split into 2? remember the journal entry says they act like "a single soul"

Or maybe they used traditional soul methods aka akin to what groal and the soul sanctum priests did

[proud swan]

Yeah its probably it. They both explode in pieces of silk

[silk dirge]

but anyways yeah i see some merit in the idea of having herrah be the last one but i just dont know how it would work out bc if i was hornet diving into past memories of massive significance is probably not something i want to do unless absolutely necessary

[supple lava]

she also straight up calls her father a fool too

[proud swan]

Like they are not formed by several flies. They are just one. And they die as one

[left rivet]

then killing him (the dancer(s)) is actually a kind death because its akin to forcibly being split in 2 while under gms control

[silk dirge]

hes not just a fool hes the entire colloseum

[left rivet]

cuz most machines have strings from needolin dialog so meaning the silkflies can still be haunted by gms due to their unique traits

[left rivet]

IS THAT AN AA REF

[lucid fossil]

hey i know this was 2 days ago but i just found something cool, you can actually use the needolin on her and the strands to the citadel will be shown, whereas doing this on people that aren’t haunted (trobbio) there isn’t any strands. thought it was neat, so weavers can indeed be haunted

[lethal burrow]

what unique bosses would you guys like for the ends of the boss rushes (assuming they will happen)

[silk dirge]

anyways the one thing id do with red memory is fix up wl dialog a little since the grammar of it is kinda weird and it could be improved a bit but other than that i like it

[left rivet]

thats really sad tho

[silk dirge]

im a big fan of the daughter of 3 queens concept

i think its pretty unique

[left rivet]

Verdania and its rulers lore is so depressing

[silk dirge]

i dont think its something ive seen in fiction before

[edgy nebula]

remove the 4th phase of the cogwork dancers and make the last dancer a much stronger fight at the end of the pantheon

[barren beacon]

That's Herrah, WL and Vespa right?

[left rivet]

i wonder if hornet only got her name from queen vespa like she never was officially named by herrah the hallownest weavers or the pale king for some reason

[stray scaffold]

Having just watched it I kinda agree, but I do like the phrasing of "child grown strong" and how it kinda parallels with lace

[proud swan]

its like mamma mia but the opposite

[silk dirge]

according to team cherry it is

apparently hornet in game got her name bc she used her needle like a stinger but i do not remember any dialog saying that

[pine garden]

dunno how much of a mercy killing the Cogwork Dancers is. Cause obviously they're artificial robots made from a single soul to parody him and his lover for presumably the satisfaction of the Citadel, pretty fucked up. And mentally the Cogwork dancers dont seem to be fully sentient either, when needolined they just sing about their duty and such. But even so they seem to be happy enough when together.
Dunno, dunno if it it would've been good to kill them if it wasn't necessary

[silk dirge]

but 3q is the out of game reason

[proud swan]

three men and a baby

[left rivet]

3 cogwork guys: green prince, and one is the mechanical shell with the sentience+soul of his lover (wait that would be so much happier by comparison to wat happened to them)

[pine garden]

The Green Prince would definitely want to be killed if he was turned into such a machine, but the dancers themselves seemed happy enough doing their duty

[barren beacon]

I think slaughterimg them is the better outcome

Now Clover dancers in the other hand

[left rivet]

fair but we dont know if

[edgy nebula]

the thing is we fight him again in another pantheon

[high violet]

Damn you guys thought a lot more about Red Memory than I did, I was just like omg baby horner

[edgy nebula]

since clover dancers have their own bossfight

[left rivet]

ya true unless cogwork is completey swapped by clover dancers aka the actual princes

[proud swan]

she is such a little baby!!!!

[pine garden]

me when I have to kill the living Green Prince because I want to 100% the game

[silk dirge]

i honestly didnt really care about baby hornet that much the fucking hallownest callbacks tho

they hit really hard

[barren beacon]

You don't need it for Completion's sake though

[high violet]

The Hallownest Callback his real hard yeah

[left rivet]

remember their haunted too i think silkflies are still sentient so we should treat the machines like real bugs: therefore: they can be controlled by gms

[proud swan]

say it again. say it to her face. you're not that brave

[barren beacon]

Also btw how does elegy of the deep work? is it like dream realm, or are we genuinely going back in time

[silk dirge]

seeing the distant village elevator i think is one of my top silksong moments and i hope very few people got it spoiled

[pine garden]

definitely dream realm

[barren beacon]

Cuz, we rip Karmelita's heart off in elegy, But like she still dies

[blissful harbor]

it’s silk messing with the dream realm

[edgy nebula]

same

[left rivet]

ya but it is in a sense merciful since he has nothing else to live for in life: his kingdom GONE, his lover GONE, his lover's soul/inhabited robots GONE, EVERYTHING is gone

[nimble kayak]

Yknow what'd be cool?

I hope in the dlcs the other dream bosses get the Verdania treatment

[blissful harbor]

idk why hornet can’t see the essence, one would think a dream realm spell would let you see the essence but ig her insight isn’t high enough

[edgy nebula]

we should be able to save every npc that dies, please let me save mottled skarr

[supple lava]

fr i felt like i was gonna cry

[barren beacon]

Audibly screamed after seeing the Stag station sign

[supple lava]

the shadow creepers in abyss too

[high violet]

The first DLC is probably gonna add Pharloom Bay along with some stuff added along with it

[left rivet]

imagine the seer being like "NO THATS NOT HOW THE REALM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK 😠

[barren beacon]

It's so crazy how much effort was put into avoiding any hallownest talk in the first 2 acts

[pine garden]

Yes I'd do anything for you mommy Skar

[proud swan]

Yeah Pharloom bay was conveniently removed and its space is still vague

[foggy fractal]

nah we'll get bilewater 2 trust

[left rivet]

then just slaping us with "remember hornets from hallownest; She KNOWS."

[proud swan]

Hey does anyone ever think about the closed door next to karmelita? Did anyone no clip that already

[barren beacon]

"OMG GUYS, SHE SAYS SHE'S THE DAUGHTER OF HALLOWNEST, LOOK!"

Audibly screamed at seeing The Knight, Screamed even louder once VGF jumpscared me

[silk dirge]

tbh i like verdania but i do wish it had more to do

[supple lava]

yep

[serene plinth]

I genuinely though I was in act 3 after I did the first ending and so when I did the trap and saw the void take her I was like It really be a sequel

[left rivet]

omg forgor about that but act 3 does def callback and force u to realize how powerful void is; We didnt even know how strong it could get

[pine garden]

Verdania was beautiful vibes wise but the ending Clover bossfight was a big disappointment

[proud swan]

I actually think this is intentional. If this happens centuries after hk its only a distant memory. After the red memory though it becomes real

[silk dirge]

like verdania basically is just for the purpose of clover dancers

[left rivet]

besides u know void entity plus other stuff

[pine garden]

especially if you dont need his heart, having already beaten the 3 other dream bosses

[barren beacon]

I did out of sport tbh

For the memento

[high violet]

I wonder how The Hollow Knight is doing back in Hallownest while all the Pharloom Shenanigans are going on

[lucid fossil]

i guess they wanted to focus more on pharloom. she does mention witnessing gods fall to lace (radiance)

she’s secretive about it to others, but references it in the journal a few times I think, the only one I can remember is her referencing the white palace in the shellwood floating flower thing journal entry

[proud swan]

I just wish there was more lore in these needolin fights. they couldve added so much more of old pharloom

[left rivet]

oof

[foggy fractal]

sleeping 💤

[lucid fossil]

in void

[pine garden]

I'd imagine Hollow Knight is rebuilding the kingdom.

[left rivet]

maybe in a dlc we can see what other kingdoms did were like how they resisted (besides karmelita her lore was very clear)

[barren beacon]

Yeah, We just completely ignored What happened To THK

[pine garden]

he was suspiciously missing in the True Ending cutscene, and we can see him walk out of the black egg in Hollow Knight godseeker ending

[proud swan]

everybody, what if. what if. like real

[silk dirge]

tbh i kinda wish after green prince we got to explore all of the ruins of verdania

[barren beacon]

Also, did Skynx kill Styxx or whatever the name of the guy that calls hornet "Mistress" is? Cuz one of his stolen lines is "Ssssave me" or sum

[high violet]

I think the Needolin Memory thing is a great way to be able show more of Pharloom and make the game go in more unexpected directions, but who knows what they do honestly

[proud swan]

this door is literally closed for no reason at all. maybe this goes to pharloom bay in dlc? I see no reason to put that here

[left rivet]

if this is the case then it would be everbloom godhome ending cuz otherwise hallownest is doomed by the knight going out of control

[lucid fossil]

oh yeah, I thought they were talking about the knight LOL. but in dream no more they probably join the knight in the void

[proud swan]

what if this goes to pharloom bay in dlc

[foggy fractal]

waiting for someone to noclip through this shit

[left rivet]

wait where did the leaf npc come from i only saw them near the karmelita statue

[edgy nebula]

coral tower also has a closed door

[barren beacon]

She appears after benching iirc

[lucid fossil]

i think that’s just the entrance to the arena you fight inside the dream realm thing

[high violet]

Someone gotta hack through it

[proud swan]

we have no clip already?

[left rivet]

btw i have not reached act 3 but i watched all lore cuz i like being in loop

[barren beacon]

lol

[edgy barn]

I think that's the door you enter Karmelita's arena from in the memory

[proud swan]

imma do it right now people. bepinex to noclip im DOWN for it

[left rivet]

tbf u dont HAVE to fully play it to enjoy the lore like me but i kinda ruin it for myself on purpose cuz Im like that 😛

[pine garden]

so HK isn't a shade at the end of the Shade Lord ending, and given how much it cared for the Kingdom and the Pale King, I assume HK becomes the next King of the kingdom and starts rebuilding it. Thought its all speculation, if HK did so Hornet would've probably commented or suggesting something about it

[foggy fractal]

seems so I just search and a few pop up

[edgy nebula]

is the twisted bud's voice actor listed anywhere

[left rivet]

dlc content fr plz confirm 5th it would be best

[barren beacon]

baby

[left rivet]

cuz hk doesnt get consumed

ghost (tk) is not out of control

[lucid fossil]

isn’t everyone in hallownest kinda dead though

[pine garden]

yeah but they can rebuild

[barren beacon]

THK lives, Hornet Lives, TK becomes a higher being, Radiance FUCKING dies. Seems good to me

[high violet]

Apparently someone no clipped and it's just empty

[foggy fractal]

there's still a few settlements here and there

[edgy nebula]

yes, is the baby who voiced the baby listed anywhere

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/walks-away-sad-leave-tom-and-jerry-gif-16877258

[barren beacon]

[pine garden]

it wouldn't go back to its original population, but there'd be more people now since the infection is over and the infastructure is there to support a large population

[left rivet]

true theres barely anyone alive unlike pharloom where most are sitll alive just insane from gms control or rebuilt due to hornets help

[lucid fossil]

idk man… radiance could just be Lost Radiance… heh…

[barren beacon]

Absolutely Lost Radiance

[lucid fossil]

bros going to have to rebuild the kingdom with salubra

[barren beacon]

Absolute Lost Grand Mother Silk

[left rivet]

also called "the old economy infrastructure and roads actually work" unlike pharloom capitalism

[barren beacon]

Why Salubra

[proud swan]

oh thanks. that's sad

[pine garden]

HK definitely isn't consumed by the void. In the godhome ending at the end we see the HK walk out of the black egg and Hornet gets ready to fight

[lucid fossil]

that’s like the only living gal I remember

[left rivet]

she really wants him <:(

[lethal burrow]

Oh yeah, that's across the kingdom. Give it like an hour or something.

[lucid fossil]

that isn’t related to him

[barren beacon]

Bretta(?)

Depends if you rescued zote ig

[lucid fossil]

bros going to get snapped in half

[proud swan]

you know where I can find it?

[barren beacon]

Myla if we didn't kill her

[lucid fossil]

that’s like a kid

[barren beacon]

Mantis Lords?

[foggy fractal]

iselda

[lucid fossil]

Hell yeah

[trim lark]

the mantis lords would sooner kill you

[lucid fossil]

not iselda she taken

[proud swan]

what about Iselda

[barren beacon]

Now we're talking

[lucid fossil]

i forgot about the mantis tribe

[lethal burrow]

Guys is this Canon

[foggy fractal]

hell naw !!!

[lucid fossil]

hallownest will just be all mantises lo

[high violet]

No idea this is what I hward from a friend who has a friend who's explored these areas and stuff in game, i don't know who the actual person is or anything

[proud swan]

yes it happens in act 5

[trim lark]

hunger fiel

[pine garden]

oh fuck yeah that would work out, HK is already similar height to them, and is a very strong warrior

[foggy fractal]

a friend of a friend 😭

[lucid fossil]

what the fuck is this LMAOAOA

[barren beacon]

Pharloom bay is fucking gone

[high violet]

Yep 😭

[silk dirge]

dlc bad ending

[high violet]

That's why I literally got nothing else

[pine garden]

very canon. When the citadel bugs captured Hornet they just took her across the border

[trim lark]

dont you wanna visit trobbios troupe

[lucid fossil]

act 10 content

[edgy nebula]

love how they just removed far fields

[silk dirge]

real silksong fans want pharloom bay with boat to steel city

[high violet]

Ok this would be dope ngl

[silk dirge]

if this isnt dlc someone better make it a mod

[proud swan]

with zote driving it

[trim lark]

what would zote name his boat

[pine garden]

Zote's sword was made of Shellwood, he originated outside of Hallownest

[quartz salmon]

This is what i preach and i will be saying it until it happens !

[pine garden]

Zote a Pharloomian confirmed

[proud swan]

I have no idea. Like no clue. None

[lethal burrow]

team Cherry is just gonna keep adding more unique content to steel soul mode in each subsequent game until you choose it and it's just a completely different fucking game altogether

[quartz salmon]

Leviathan

[foggy fractal]

I'm suprised that no one ever made a Hunter boss fight
we got pale court adding 5 great knights
that ancient aspid mod
and more recently a shade lord fight

[silk dirge]

that shade lord fight was not that great tho

[proud swan]

You guys think its possible that a dlc is coming this year? They did drop silksong in 2 weeks after announcement

[foggy fractal]

better than nothing

[edgy barn]

We got shade lord fight?

[silk dirge]

they clearly tried their best with it

[proud swan]

Yes its crazy

[silk dirge]

but it was pretty janky

[quartz salmon]

I'm betting on either late 2026 or early 2027

[lethal burrow]

hollow knight started development in 2014 and released in 2017.
there are 36 months in three years.
the first DLC was six months after release

6 is 13.67% of 36

Silksong took seven years to make, if we assume the relative scale and development time compared to the base game is the same, then the first DLC for silk song will release 13 and a half months after silksong released, as 13.44 months is 16% of seven years.

[trim lark]

me when im playing the hollow knights new game and i step into the steel soul quest that sends me to another game

[pine garden]

Each subsequent DLC will have less benches

the final DLC area wont have any real benches and they're all going to be Bilewater type traps

[silk dirge]

i just hope team cherry has better communication with the dlcs

[foggy fractal]

do you think Pale Court and Ancient Aspid are on par with the original game's bosses

[high violet]

They won't and it'll be the funniest thing ever

[silk dirge]

pale court yeah

[proud swan]

Theres just a small problem with your reasoning. It makes sense. TC's time to develop silksong does not. What about that

[silk dirge]

i think the shade lord fight was good

they just needed to do some work on it

maybe they were planning to before silksong released

they have a very good basis to work off of

[foggy fractal]

some stuff could've had some touch up probably but it was overall pretty good
stuff like hegemol's lineart being inconsistent like iirc it gets larger when he's doing his stand in the middle and slam the ground attack

[proud swan]

For real though they had A LOT of the game already built in announcement trailer, and we can safely assume some content made before is going to be on dlc

[lucid fossil]

Yeah I really enjoyed the Lost Marmu fight

[proud swan]

So imma take my copium and believe this is going to be the year

[lime osprey]

The lion does not concern himself with extra steelsoul content and spoils himself on YouTube

[quartz salmon]

I'd like to see Team Cherry go back to doing more AMAs and stuff I think it's a good way to communicate

[proud swan]

I really didnt like it. Felt rushed I dunno

[silk dirge]

yeah

[drowsy belfry]

why are fleas like 80 percent flying creatures but then theres the ones with the feet and stuff

[silk dirge]

honestly ive been wondering this too

someone mentioned varga could be an imposter

[rich beacon]

i think the ones with feets are older fleas

[barren beacon]

Hollow Knight

[high violet]

They probably just have a really fucked up lifecycle

[lime osprey]

Inb4 flea higher being turning regular bugs to fleahood

[rich beacon]

why gms created the silk curse

[quartz salmon]

Maybe they lose flight when getting older

Which is a thing team cherry consistently does in their games (with the mantises for example)

Which is NOT what happens in real life. There is not a single bug ANYWHERE that has wings and loses them it's always the opposite

[lime osprey]

She thought it would be funny

[proud swan]

maybe walking is somehow of a privilege to fleas. If you think about it fleas feed themselves of their ground. So a flea with legs would be closer and would have the priority to eat, as a important member of their tribe

[edgy barn]

The concept of a steelsoul exclusive boss still seems crazy too me. A boss you have never fought before has a much higher chance of killing you even if they aren't actually that much hard.

[rich beacon]

so we dont know yet

and why she created lace and phantom

[lime osprey]

No godhome either so you really just get one shot lmao craziest runback of all time

[proud swan]

its safe to assume she did because her original creations turned against her I guess. Or she wasnt satisfied with them

[pine garden]

you can open menu and quit before dying to refight bosses in steelsoul

[lime osprey]

Higher beings have an innate tendency to dominate and establish sovereignty. I guess she just wanted a true daughter also

[rich beacon]

wym original creations

[proud swan]

weavers

[lime osprey]

Defeats the whole purpose icl

[rich beacon]

oh makes sense ig

[lime osprey]

No hate to anyone who does that tho

[tawdry flare]

well the purpose SUCKS!!

[proud swan]

Thats what I say to myself everytime I die in steel soul

I believe it less and less

[rich beacon]

but keeps ur sanity

[proud swan]

100% deathless steel soul is absolutely INSANE

[lime osprey]

This is true, steelsoul is considerable worse and less enjoyable without a godhome type of area to memorize bosses and hone your skill

[edgy barn]

Whiteward Silk Heart Dialogue:

...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...
...They are ours... Bound forever...

[tawdry flare]

i miss my silk soul...

[lime osprey]

Probably, I’ve had like 5 steelsoul runs fail and they all get to like far fields or greymoor. Worst thing about it all is that the first 20 minutes of silksong fucking reek and are annoying to play over and over again

If i could just start after walking out the chapel it would be a much more enjoyable experience

[proud swan]

I died to a rat in greymoor

[rich beacon]

ive had like 3 runs that i died to the big fat rolling guy at the start left

[lime osprey]

Or if they just removed the shitty momentum breaking cutscenes of Hornet passing out

[proud swan]

This is a certified bummer

[rich beacon]

start right* srry

[edgy barn]

What was the deal with those? I thought they were going to get some significance later on but it really seems it was just Hornet being tired.

[proud swan]

Cant imagine doing ass jim in steel soul. I may prefer inserting glue in my eyeballs

[proud swan]

I think its beyond tired. She is weaker, much weaker. The fact that she has to bind weavers abilities makes me think she lost the ones she had

[lime osprey]

My runs keep getting ended by getting wombo combod by double damage. One run got two hit by the flying jackasses in far fields and fell directly into lava which burnt 4 hearts in .5 seconds causing me to lose the entire save immediately.

Another i got combo’d by contact damage then double damage by the scissor dude in greymoor. 5 masks is just brutal

[solemn axle]

mad king ahh vibes

[rich beacon]

i kinda understood it but if u have a better explanation of this pls

[drowsy belfry]

could snail shamans be used to advance into electricity or modern technology

[proud swan]

I would definitely use them as energy

[solemn axle]

do you think about that a lot?

[edgy barn]

The way I understand it GMS wants to take control of everyone and unite them into eternal worship of her, therefore The Haunting occurs.

[lime osprey]

We already see the weavers do something similar with silk in the weavernests. Though the technology is less computers and more H.r. giger

[rich beacon]

i died at my past run for that big bell guys at the bottom of bellhart

now im playing again and im on act 2 in some part idrc but yeah im far

[solemn axle]

a lore question, so why the void didn't break the vessel of the knight and kill him like we see with bugs in slik song*

[lime osprey]

Extremely unfortunate. Steelsoul is just extremely brutal to do legitimately especially right a boss rush available rn

[solemn axle]

is it something with the pale vessel?

[lime osprey]

The vessels are already dead when they are imbued with void

[edgy barn]

I thought being imbued with void was what killed them?

[rich beacon]

im not doing it legitimately cz i think its more for tryhards

[lime osprey]

Probably this to

[rich beacon]

and i just want the platine cuz its the sequel of my very favorite game

[lime osprey]

Mmmmm not sure

[solemn axle]

the knight was still alive though

[lime osprey]

No

[solemn axle]

maybe the pale king test was hard enough?

[foggy fractal]

when ? sister of the void ?

[lime osprey]

The knight, the infant, is dead and its soul was replaced with void which turned into a shade

[edgy barn]

We know vessels die at one point from the White Lady's dialogue

[pine garden]

all the vessels are actually dead, and are animated by the void, hence the shades

[solemn axle]

wait what

all that time I called the pale king "father" ??

[trim lark]

they threw the children into the abyss theyve been dead for a hot minute

[lime osprey]

How do we tell him

[pine garden]

I dont think there is any other explanation for the vessels aside from being animated by the void, they all died when still inside their eggs

[lime osprey]

I mean the pale king is the father of their shell, the shell which their shade takes after in form so kinda

[pine garden]

He is the father of the vessels, he fathered them, and while they were still in their eggs, he put them in the abyss. The void then seeped into the eggs and killed the vessels and then animated their bodies

[solemn axle]

and who is controlling the void exactly?!

[pine garden]

dunno why the Vessels are non-hostile to other bugs, aside from when its just the shade and their shells are gone

[trim lark]

the void

[edgy barn]

nobody

[pine garden]

the void is chaotic and not united

[solemn axle]

who killed my hero, garmond?!

[trim lark]

except for that one point where it is

[lime osprey]

It’s a very vague and non-unified will, but the will is there it just needs to be focused or commanded or disturbed enough

[trim lark]

the void

[pine garden]

its called the most powerful force in the first game but its not unified so it can't do much on its own as is

[edgy barn]

GMS, sort of

[trim lark]

garmond would be fuckin chilling at home with the haunting didnt hit his village

[solemn axle]

he fought with honour😔

[lime osprey]

The void is innocent, it just formed along the webs GMS already had

[pine garden]

he got infected by the void due to exposure I presume.

the void is just lashing out and doing what it does, consume and control anything close to it

the tendrils all around Pharloom are due to GMS

[solemn axle]

he never lost a fight! (except the duel with hornet)

[trim lark]

my man was working overtime

[pine garden]

he was

he's presumably a "regular" bug, so its not a surprise he got infected

[solemn axle]

No

he is not regular

[trim lark]

hes pretty regular

[solemn axle]

he is a hero with a regular shell

do regulars kill moorwing?

[tawdry flare]

im assuming you did so yeah

[rich beacon]

with help of hornet ig yes

[solemn axle]

he survived all the way from deep docks to blasted with the void!? and he only lost because of fighting too much!

[solemn axle]

huh not funny

[foggy fractal]

regular in the sense that he's not like half higher being or very big and old like bardoon

[azure cosmos]

so uhh is hornets mask actually just her head? i noticed she emotes with her eye holes in cutscenes lmao

[blissful harbor]

yes

that is her skull

[azure cosmos]

that makes sense i guess

[foggy fractal]

yeah the whole mask thing is confusing
we got Hornet saying that Widow got her mask forcibly removed, but we also know thats what weavers just look like its not like they put on a big ass mask or smth

[azure cosmos]

maybe its like she got her face skinned off bug equivalent

[muted lantern]

mask maker calls it a mask, and implies it was crafted by someone, but not by him, its also presumable weavers wear masks considering herrah does not wear the dome shaped head of a weaver despite being a full blooded weaver, presumably she exchanged it for a new one as she took on a new role as dreamer or perhaps queen of deepnest

[ebon silo]

You could say it's the same for phantom now ofc the weavers head are masks so you can just not wear it

[spark valve]

mask and face are used interchangeably

[muted lantern]

forcibly removing a mask is still extremly destructive without it being part of their body, as masks have a magical effect and are kinda extremely tied to their sense of self and identity

thats why widow goes nutters when her identity is torn from her

without literally tearing her head off

[azure cosmos]

cool

[ebon silo]

I'm guessing when widow was punished so her mask was removed but I'm guessing why the mask is maybe to not make her like a weaver like you don't deserve to be a weaver sum like that

Like stripping a weavers identity

[blissful harbor]

pretty sure widow got her actual face ripped off

hence the cloth cover

[ebon silo]

She still got her eyes though

[foggy fractal]

just part of the cloth we assume

[ebon silo]

Because in the end your eyes is all that matters you feel me

[muted lantern]

If the masks were physically part of their body I don't think herrah would have swapped her weaver mask out for a different one

If that was physically ripping your own face off

[spark valve]

they're obviously physically part of their body from first sinner memory

[ebon silo]

I mean she did have a piece of cloth on though

[foggy fractal]

yeah this

[muted lantern]

There's a few non sentient bugs that wear masks afaik, mask flies as an example

[spark valve]

also hornet says widow's mask was forcibly removed in the context of talking about her body it's obviously a part of her body

[foggy fractal]

Her body seemed a Weaver's, but her mask had been forcibly removed, and her own Silk was bound useless by heavy pins lodged through her spine. 🗣️

[muted lantern]

So herrah ripped off her own face for a change in fashion

[ebon silo]

Mmm

[foggy fractal]

I'm gonna say it...

[spark valve]

do it

[foggy fractal]

retcon !!!!

[muted lantern]

That's an answer for cowards

If they are retroactively making herrah a weaver then they retroactively made a reason her face is different

[foggy fractal]

as far as base game is concered they didn't

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming she did it for a rebellion like

"LOOK sisters I'm gonna tear my fucking face as an act of defiance against our GM she does not deserve the right to make us in HER design"

[foggy fractal]

I mean maybe in a dlc they'll explain it ? I can't see why they couldn't

but we just don't have an answer right now

[spark valve]

it doesn't really matter anyways, it doesn't change anything

[ebon silo]

Not to mention herrah is fat like she does not look like a weaver at all

[foggy fractal]

yeah true she's a weaver anyways

[muted lantern]

Considering a mask is so spiritually bound to a creatures mind I don't see why the removal of widows making her nuts has to insinuate physical ripping off of a face, considering that would more than likely kill you

[spark valve]

Her body seemed a Weaver's, but her mask had been forcibly removed, and her own Silk was bound useless by heavy pins lodged through her spine.

's not that complicated

[muted lantern]

And again, mask maker discusses hornets mask as if it were crafted, specifying it's not his craft

[spark valve]

mask maker uses mask and face interchangeably

hornet's face is a face

[muted lantern]

I think herrah ripping off her own face complicates things a bit

[spark valve]

not really

[silk dirge]

im kinda curious how hornets eyes work

theyre kinda just... holes

[ebon silo]

The biggest question so far is how can hornet talk

[muted lantern]

Mouth

[silk dirge]

where

[ebon silo]

And where is this mouth

[muted lantern]

Under.. the... Mask..

[ebon silo]

Wouldn't it be muffled then

[silk dirge]

does hornet have silk vocal chords

[spark valve]

it's not a mask mouths just aren't drawn

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[muted lantern]

Except when they are

[foggy fractal]

how does Lace talk, how does Trobbio talk, how does caretaker talk, etc

[ebon silo]

Trobbio has a mouth in pretty sure she just has it..under his nose

[silk dirge]

i think we can just assume they have like vocal chords that make silly sounds somewhere

[ebon silo]

Y'know some npcs and bosses are based off their voice actors

[foggy fractal]

how does swiftmaster talk

[ebon silo]

Who is that again

[foggy fractal]

oh sorry Sprintmaster Swift

[silver spire]

TRRRRROBBIOOOOOOO

[ebon silo]

He just does

[muted lantern]

Swiftmaster sprint

[ebon silo]

Can you please stop questioning divinity you know what happened to the first sinner when she did

You'll be fried bug for dinner i

[alpine wasp]

Hornet’s Needle weighs as much if not more than her

[ebon silo]

Do pilgrims eat eachother

[muted lantern]

Also if weavers head is the mask why does widow still have a smaller head underneath

[ebon silo]

Bingo

[spark valve]

because the rest of it was removed

she's mutilated

'why is the mutilated character missing part of her body' is one of the arguments of all time

[candid briar]

not sure whether to go to hk lore or ss lore but i guess maybe this is best to avoid spoiling them

have we gotten any further clarification on what those folks from deepnest were

were they actually part of that scrapped spider boss? was it silk?

[muted lantern]

More of why do weavers have a smaller second head inside their head

[candid briar]

wdym

[trim lark]

the creepy ass guys that want you to bench?

[candid briar]

ye

[trim lark]

oh yeah no fucking clue

silk seems like a good candidate

[candid briar]

i feel its kinda silly that if they just never decided to expand on that considering they had to scrap its explanation in HK

[candid briar]

silk seems more logical within the context of the universe but at the time they probably were thinking that giant spider boss

[muted lantern]

I assume it was just smaller bugs in a trenchcoat

[trim lark]

i think the scrapped spider boss eventually evolved into fourth chorus ngl

in terms of design

[candid briar]

spiders in HK basically only existed in deepnest, and that one's mising

tough i think from the trailer it should have been somewhere... smooth?

deepnest isn't smooth i have no idea what their original plan was

its very strange to see so much of the trailer get scrapped

[candid briar]

they all vanish when you wake up

for some reason absolutely no one mentions it
the knight does not write anything down
hornet does not allude to it

[trim lark]

hk lore if the knight bothered to have a diary or something

[spark valve]

it's not that weird that was super early in development before the ideas were really finalized, plus that giant spider would've looked hilariously out of place

[candid briar]

but yeah i was rewatching it a while ago and there was this scene where the knight was swimming up

that was cool
thats gone

[mint stratus]

Oh the white circle head things are masks

[trim lark]

im not sure how i would feel about water combat

[mint stratus]

It’s mentioned in Widows hunters journal entry

[trim lark]

but like its tc theyd probably figure smth out

[spark valve]

they are part of their body mask does not mean artificial

[candid briar]

i find the idea that the knight wouldnt have just have been making their own observations to be very unusual considering we know that the knight is not hollow, does retain memories, and is experiencing life

potential weaver lore LOST

[trim lark]

i guess they just didnt feel like it

[muted lantern]

Again, if it's a physical part of their body you'd think we'd get some kinda commentary on herrah the beast skinning herself alive to change her drip

[candid briar]

i hope that wasnt the original plan and it was more like racing swimming sections

[trim lark]

the SWIMMASTER

[mint stratus]

My personal theory is there are different species of spider being used to make weavers

[candid briar]

i remember in HK when you hit the weaver heads they went clank

maybe just an outer shell to protect them?

[spark valve]

yes it is part of their shell

[muted lantern]

Eh the only really different kind we see is first sinner,

[foggy fractal]

climb master

[candid briar]

its possible. for some reason hk and pharloom dont share any spider species

you'd think they'd overlap, considering they left pharloom but they absolutely did not plan this lore ahead so its just an oversight ig

[foggy fractal]

Sprintmaster
Climbmaster
Swimmaster
what next

[mint stratus]

No the weavers were initially from pharloom and went back when the infection got out of the black egg

[candid briar]

thing is about HK is that the weavers and hornet simply never had enough lore to begin with, so building an entire game around them is absolutely going to be a bit messy when it comes back to a game like 9 years younger

[spark valve]

divemaster

[muted lantern]

And also mask maker describes hornets mask like something crafted

[foggy fractal]

DIVEMASTER 🔥

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah and also Dashmaster

[candid briar]

yes
so the spiders in deepnest should have been similar to ones in pharloom

[spark valve]

yes you have failed to grasp the fundamental concept behind mask maker

[mint stratus]

There were already spiders native to deepnest before the weavers

[candid briar]

my greater question is how do you lose your face in pharloom or hallownest

surely that means death

[trim lark]

face melting acid

[candid briar]

but the weavers brought spiders with them didnt they?

[trim lark]

just specifically the face

[candid briar]

ITS UNN'S DOING

[muted lantern]

Would you like to elaborate or just drop one liners

[mint stratus]

Considering they were fleeing for their lives, probably didn’t have the time or reason to bring any

[candid briar]

unn burned faces and then went right back to sleep

[trim lark]

aurafarming in #sk-lore

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/piccolo-dbz-dragon-ball-piccolo-standing-on-tower-tower-gif-13558229454457057953

[spark valve]

I mean I already have
but sure mask maker considers faces and masks to be figuratively the same things, and his dialogue isn't literal it's about identity

mask maker isn't saying hornet's face is artificial he's saying she already has an identity

[candid briar]

i think some did come, but it really is just an oversight

i mean herrah doesnt even look like any weaver or spider creature we know

their character designs simply evolved past hollow knight

[spark valve]

A fine face, yours. Not of my work. Not of this kingdom's craft. Not now at least.

But the deeper form. Distant relationship. Some form of Pharloom and our old, legged, stewards.
this is him saying she doesn't hail directly from pharloom, but her ancestry is evident in her identity

it's not saying her face isn't her face

[trim lark]

the mask makers just weird in general
the one we encounter in mount fay can tell hornet is already an 'old one' at a glance

[foggy fractal]

👵

[candid briar]

its very... strange tbh

the game refers to your health as masks, but thats a natural part of you

[trim lark]

we also use actual ancient mask pieces

[spark valve]

those are a whole separate thing

[candid briar]

ngl pharloom's mask maker got so ominous when you hit off his mask

[mint stratus]

Deepnest enemies

[candid briar]

sure i guess we were in the wrong but i thought he was about to start a fight in some way

[foggy fractal]

nah maskmaker would'

[edgy barn]

are we having another herrah debate

[candid briar]

ngl that weaver looks so silly

[foggy fractal]

ve been fodder Hornet is too strong

[candid briar]

do we have an image of first sinner i gotta

[lethal burrow]

I also find him in contrast with the other one very funny because pharloom's one relatively straightforward compared to the one in deepnest so it turns out the deepnest guy is just sort of a freak

[mint stratus]

Definitely 😆, s’what I like about them

[candid briar]

vaguely related shes one of the coolest bosses this game has had to offer because she really kinda just showed how silk can be used very early on

she just weaves clothes into existence

[edgy barn]

https://youtu.be/b6Qa8Q9zTWU?si=c0Nl3L91NHJFkA3i

[mint stratus]

SHE LOOKS SO COOL

[candid briar]

hornet what kind of skill issue do you have that you need to actually go retrieve your cloak

[spark valve]

by that point her cloak has the flexile spine upgrade which is kind of important plus tool stuff

[spark valve]

it's not just there to be clothes

[candid briar]

thing is, with silk you could probably just make all of those herself

[edgy barn]

First Sinner doesn't stop to sing her needolin lines, instead they just play automatically, just like the memory bosses.

That should confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that the First Sinner fight does in fact take place in a a memory

[candid briar]

she's so sick
her boss fight and design is enough to let me disdregard that she absolutely rocked me every time for a decent while

[lethal burrow]

she invented using silk for runes so she's inadvertently responsible for the seal of binding being created

[candid briar]

i feel like silk might just be a superior system to soul

[spark valve]

it's just soul

[candid briar]

but cooler

[trim lark]

weavers really like stringing up shit to throw at us

[trim lark]

like constantly

[candid briar]

pure vessel is the closest we see to someone using soul dynamically.

[spark valve]

widow loses her silk, fs at least makes runes on the stuff she throws

[candid briar]

what was up with widow anyways?

[foggy fractal]

so you mean cooler in lore instead of a gameplay mechanic ?

[edgy barn]

Mutilated and crazed weaver that worships GMS

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Widow#

[trim lark]

oh yeah groal uses soul but its literally just vengeful spirit

[candid briar]

but gms is mean to weavers (i think)

[candid briar]

that sucked i was not expecting that

[trim lark]

brainwash

[spark valve]

she still created them there being a loyalist isn't that weird

[cold axle]

it's cool that they added needolin dialogue for widow

[candid briar]

kind of both
i feel like when we saw soul, it was very... repetitive. not necessarily in a bad way but more so consistent. when we see characters use silk it really does feel like it varies

[cold axle]

when you should never be able to see it

[trim lark]

now that i think about it why the fuck did they target bell beast with silk fuck did bro do

[candid briar]

i mean phantom was creating projections with hers and lace was.... lace was just teleporting

a lot of them teleport

[edgy barn]

We should be able to see it once we get a way to refight bosses

[trim lark]

lace is just fast i dont think that ones an application of silk

[edgy barn]

Does Lace actually teleport or is she just moving crazy fast

[candid briar]

the slam down thing?

[spark valve]

teleportation is a well established soul spell weavers could probably do it

[foggy fractal]

thats moving really really fast I'd say
the verdania enemies do it too

[candid briar]

we see first sinner do it pretty sure

[edgy barn]

First Sinner does it yes

[spark valve]

lace doesn't really do any magic

[trim lark]

well yeah fs constantly teleports

[candid briar]

i think widow actually just jumps away

[spark valve]

widow can't do magic anymore

[muted lantern]

So to be clear, you are saying weavers all have a naturally growing mask, one that is removing is equivalent to having your face torn off, the weavers also have a second, bonus face, below their mask, that can function after having their actual face ripped off. Herrah has a different face because either she tore hers off her head because she felt like it, or because team cherry are not good writers and didn't think at all about why herrah having a entirely different head shape when they were writing the retcon of her being a weaver.

All of this is so likely, that it's not even worth considering they wear masks

[candid briar]

she dragged bells out of he ground to stab me

[trim lark]

yea

[edgy barn]

Lace would esentially be eating away at her own body if she tried to use Silk in combat.

[spark valve]

by manipulating gms's silk not using her own power

[candid briar]

i just reasoned that the weavers have a main face, and then an outer shell that protects them

[trim lark]

widow despite their own silk having been pinned down was very good with using the silk in the room to throw a million bells at us

[spark valve]

yeah it's really not that complicated

[foggy fractal]

woe bell be upon ye

[candid briar]

godseeker dlc and we get to see her in full glory

[edgy nebula]

first sinner minus rune rage

[trim lark]

married woman with alive husband boss

[candid briar]

shakra is a non negotiable fight (which would be insane cuz i dont think even a boss beat my ass that bad)

i have never been denied so many hits simply be how fast a boss was

[edgy barn]

I suppose she had a lot of time and motivation to get good at manipulating silk with music. Makes you wonder what she could do if she regained use of her own silk.

[foggy fractal]

yeah Widow just jumps away
whilst FS teleports

[edgy nebula]

fs's teleport sound is satisfying as shit

[spark valve]

the fs sound effects go crazy overall

[candid briar]

i wonder if she could have been saved if someone yanked those two pins out

[spark valve]

If that was an option I imagine she would've just removed them

[candid briar]

or would that have just made her stronger and crazy

[edgy nebula]

true, widow and fs have amazing voices and bossfights, love them

[muted lantern]

Considering they were in her spine she would probably die very painfully

[candid briar]

😔

[muted lantern]

It is odd she has a spine, but that's what the hunters journal says

[edgy nebula]

in an alternate universe we have a disabled widow who can use her silk

[trim lark]

things weavers really seem to really like doing

• throwing shit at us
• slashing at us
• having a fakeout death into a new phase
• rapid scuttling
• getting the shit bound out of them

[candid briar]

you yourself can achieve rapid scuttling but it sucks

[edgy nebula]

extra emphasis on the last one

[candid briar]

you can also go up walls like a little weirdo

[edgy nebula]

i wonder why some weavers give silk skills and others give ancestral arts

[ebon silo]

Y'know if we ever get a reused Grimm troupe we all know his ass is gonna be in wisp thicket

[edgy nebula]

are the ancestral art weavers stronger than the silk skill ones?? do they choose what they give us??

[foggy fractal]

who did the sound effects for Silksong anyway

[edgy nebula]

why do one of the weavers give hornet the ability to run

[candid briar]

trobbio gets to be an honorary member

[trim lark]

maybe the weavers have different roles
like recon had ancestral arts to move round easier, combat had combat

[ebon silo]

Why question the weavers choices

[edgy nebula]

i assume christopher larkin or william if there wasnt anyone listed in the credits

[muted lantern]

That makes some sense, my primary hangup remains herrahs face, as most explanations I've seen remain very handwavey

[trim lark]

trobbio but theres a grimmchild constantly firing at us

[candid briar]

iirc it says "extraordinary speed" or some shit so ive decided that the speed we see hornet moving at is her running, and she's actually just really slow until she regains her strength

[candid briar]

Team Cherry oversight

They probably wanted Herrah to look more in line with the dreamers, but because she now looks more like the dreamers, she looks less like the weavers

[trim lark]

apparently falling all the way down from that bridge broke hornets legs

[foggy fractal]

epic fail

[candid briar]

should've broken far more
have you actually jumped from that point?

[muted lantern]

That's what I meant by handwavey I think team cherry deserves a little credit to be able to think through their retcon over seven years

[candid briar]

like do you see how far of a fall that is?

[trim lark]

no because i would be DEAD

[edgy nebula]

insect physics

[candid briar]

hornet has gotten astronomically lucky twice that both times she has fallen in this game, the needle happens to land right beside her, but not pierce into her

[foggy fractal]

nah the retcon train has set off and it won't slow down

[muted lantern]

Originally herrah might not have been a weaver, but they had seven years to make it make sense, I like to believe they at least considered the ramifications before throwing my hands up

[candid briar]

you must await the DLC 😔
THE WEAVER DLC
full of weaver enemies and lore

maybe you use silk to violate the timeline and go back

[trim lark]

silksong if the needle was like 2 centimeters to the right

[foggy fractal]

credit roll

[edgy nebula]

good lord no not silksong time travel

[muted lantern]

It feels a little defeatist to believe tc has no competence when it comes to making retcons make sense

[candid briar]

ngl the weavers are prob still alive

[ebon silo]

Violate the timeline yeah I don't think you should do that for all we know if we move a chair from a weaver hornet might look different like she could have 3 horns for all we know

[edgy nebula]

tc's only retconned one thing havent they

[muted lantern]

At least one in hallownest

[muted lantern]

Snail shamans too

Apparently

[edgy nebula]

whatd they retcon about them

[candid briar]

i dont think they dont have competence i just think they might have just kinda forgotten her since she died in HK and (as far as i've seen, and havent finished act 3) has barely been mentioned

[muted lantern]

Something about not being related to void originally (despite conspicuously exploding into black particles)

But I'm sure that's irrelevant

[edgy nebula]

gpz explodes into black particles aswell

[candid briar]

they turn goopy too which is strange

[muted lantern]

Gpz is void

[edgy nebula]

proof?

[muted lantern]

I don't remember that, you sure that's not collector

[trim lark]

i am void

[muted lantern]

I asked Christopher Larkin and he shot me twice in the head

[edgy nebula]

makes sense

[candid briar]

i think one of the current shamans are goopy
i will have to go find them again

[foggy fractal]

theres a bunch of things in contention
there is

• Voidheart in sister of the void
• Lifeblood in wormways
• Paleking's constructs
• Herrah & Weavers
• Snail Shamans
• 3 Queens
  those are all of the topics I've seen so far regarding retcons here

[candid briar]

i reset my save so im going through act 2 again

my theory is that lifeblood is void related

[ebon silo]

What voidheart

[muted lantern]

Oh you mean hermit? I think he just looks like that

[candid briar]

oop that sounds like an act 3 ending i must dodge

[edgy nebula]

i dont think 3 queens was really a retcon, was it? tc mentioned it in a blog post, we just werent sure of the canonicity since it was a long time since they said it

[candid briar]

biggest loser of all the shamans btw

[spark valve]

flower mechanics with void are also changed

[edgy barn]

I personally only consider Herrah, the shamans and to a lesser extent voidheart to be retcona.

[edgy nebula]

keep yapping, slave

[ebon silo]

3 queens? Oh you mean the 3 queen theory? I'm pretty sure that was confirmed for hornet

[candid briar]

"go away slave"

fool ye are a slave to your own cowardice

you sit around in a cave refusing to do anything cuz muhhh its all meaningless

mf you know magic
get up
do something

[quick thorn]

he's like the vaultkeeper. Why is the vaultkeeper kinda goopy? Doesn't seem like it matters...

[ebon silo]

Y'know like hornet is from herrah hornet was mentored by the white lady and the trained by vespa

[foggy fractal]

the gist of it is
in sister of the void, the knight has to attack the tendrils that are going towards Hornet and Lace, when it should've been able to just control it and make it go away if its consistent with how voidheart was in the first game

[foggy fractal]

oh shit the list just keeps growing huh

[alpine wasp]

I found a way to calculate how much Hornet travels, how heavy she is, and plausibly what the needle is made of

[edgy nebula]

dont you remember when the vaultkeeper said: "im void" after you gave him the void psalm cylinder

[spark valve]

it just felt like it or something

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming he just wanted to aurafarm

[foggy fractal]

rule of cool

[muted lantern]

Having void heart means tendrils won't attack you, doesn't mean they stop attacking other people

[quick thorn]

No? Voidheart in the first game just means you get to command the shades and the void stops attacking you
Doesn't mean it won't attack others

[candid briar]

i havent seen that ending but i have been mildly spoiled
im assuming the ending of P5 godhome didnt become canon?

[ebon silo]

But how about you controlling the void?

[quick thorn]

we don't know

[muted lantern]

Depends who you ask

[spark valve]

it's controlling the void it can stop it from attacking people if it chooses, hell it even does that in the ss ending

[candid briar]

if the knight had become shade lord, it would have been under the knight, right?

i think voidheart just means the rest of the void recognizes you as part of it, but shade lord actually means you control the void

[foggy fractal]

also radiance fights yeah ?

y'know with the void coming up and stuff

[quick thorn]

Well, say what happened is this
Void attacks
Knight slashes at tendrils to stop attack
Void stops attacking
Done, it is controlling the void, it just wasn't at that moment

[spark valve]

void heart means you control it, it unifies the void under the bearer's will

[candid briar]

it is time for the hollow knight replay

ngl it probably is hard to control all of the void, when its seemingly just everywhere below the world

[ebon silo]

We still can't figure out which ending is Canon because dream no more is a contender but then the shade lord appears but we can't be sure for the godmaster either

[candid briar]

and void creatures of their own will seem to exist

[foggy fractal]

yeah its meant to be ambigious

[candid briar]

cant wait for the hollow knight prequel: pale beings

[ebon silo]

Unless hornet saw the shade lord and in reality it didn't really appear and she just saw something off

[candid briar]

get to play as big little pale king

[ebon silo]

Like it was a figment of her imagination

[candid briar]

ngl the shaman's plans really sucked

[ebon silo]

No it didnt

[candid briar]

this entire plan hinged on GMS just... not resisting?

[candid briar]

it absolutely did, since it went very badly, and then the void ended up just absorbing her power

[foggy fractal]

should we knock Voidheart off the list then

[candid briar]

why in any situation would you want the void to now attain the ability to use silk to possess people

[ebon silo]

I mean it's not their fault I mean void can kill anything

[candid briar]

like even if GMS went silently, you've now made the void immeasurably stronger

[lethal burrow]

not really.

it was only a problem because of grand silks thread

[candid briar]

idk why hornet's options are "absorb" or "absorb"
why does she bind every single thing she comes across

[spark valve]

it's just kind of a dumb moment doesn't really entail void heart working differently

[foggy fractal]

like resisting in the cocoon in the abyss ?

[candid briar]

i mean... yeah? thats her silk
thats what got absorbed

[foggy fractal]

I guess we can just knock it off the retcon list then

[muted lantern]

Void heart I wouldn't count as a retcon, just something that was left pretty vague, uniting the void under your will sure, but it doesn't mean every part of your body you are aware of and in control of at all times, presumably ghost just noticed hornet in their digestive system at the last moment (probably because the everbloom was no longer warding off the void )

[candid briar]

im assuming the void is what contains the power, considering your shade in HK was also able to cast spells that you gain

[lethal burrow]

it didn't make the silk it was only able to do that because of her actions.

Once she's gone, it's not like it will have that superpower

[candid briar]

why

that confuses me why not

perhaps im saying it wrong

[lethal burrow]

Why would it?

[candid briar]

why would it lose that power when the source dies?

[ebon silo]

Why did the infection die when the radiance died

[edgy nebula]

the void only took control of pharloom because gms resisted to try and save lace, which, it was hornet's fault getting grabbed that lace tried to save hornet

[edgy barn]

Hornet can't kill GMS because she is a higher being, so it was either binding or entrapment.

[candid briar]

because the infection was directly the radiance

[spark valve]

I mean we see that it does lose that power

but also it's never void's power

[lethal burrow]

It was hijacking a pre-existing something, once that something no longer is an existing thing it can no longer use it.

It travelled along the threads and gained ahold of people through the haunting that was already happening, once those things stopped I don't see how the void could continue doing what it was doing

[candid briar]

ah i see, i was thinking more that it was sending out the threads itself

[ebon silo]

Right so if we kill the GMS which garauntee it did in the escape void lost control of silk as it was shown in the cutscene

[lethal burrow]

no it was just travelling along the threads silk sent out

[foggy fractal]

the void attaches on gms' threads thats how its able to spread throughout pharloom
once gms' threads are gone cuz she's dead, the void throughout the kingdom is gone too

[muted lantern]

Don't think the void was intentionally like "go kill everyone" rather than just amplifying the haunting itself with its presence

[ebon silo]

yeah like water to string

Like silk kinda just absorbs void or void absorbed it and considering it's everywhere in pharloom void too spread everywhere

[candid briar]

im spoiling myself further

[candid briar]

i dont think there is ever intention behind the void

excluding like the very specific characters

[muted lantern]

Yeah you should run

[candid briar]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-silksong-dance-hornet-dance-hornet-silksong-gif-3654151901745923854

[foggy fractal]

yeah there are characters who use the void to do stuff
but the void kinda just sits there unless something comes close enough

[muted lantern]

The void is just soup that eats you instead

The anti soup

[ebon silo]

Like that one episode of Rick and Morty where pizzas order humans

cutaway-

[candid briar]

i once heard someone say that the shade lord was destined to consume everything
was that ever clarified in like either game

did they just lie to me

[muted lantern]

I don't remember that

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[candid briar]

oh

[muted lantern]

All we know about shady Lord is they are void given focus and the god of God's I think

[ebon silo]

Well of course they're the gods of gods they have the source that kills gods and anything else

[muted lantern]

Evil and intimidating soup

[ebon silo]

but yet I'm sure the steel city or whatever faction the steel assassins are they are dangerous because they kinda look like they can dabble and use void

I'm pretty sure pale king copied their ideas and made kingsmould

[foggy fractal]

y'know dnm how the void starts to flood out of the black egg temple ? and the void kinda just goes away
it does the same thing but floods out of godseeker in etv, we just don't see what the void does after
I think the consensus is that tk would just go to the void and chill

[muted lantern]

What even happens in delicate flower ending, do they get banished back to the void or just get vaporized

[foggy fractal]

I'm not too familiar with this one

[quick thorn]

back to the void presumably
Basically the dreamworld of the godseeker is overwhelmed with void, so it starts seeping out, akin to THK and the radiance seeping out
But unlike that, the void isn't defeated, so it probably just exits the dream world into the void

[rare meteor]

is 2nd sentinel made from the soul of a pinstress? They have the same needle art cross attack

[quick thorn]

no, SS was trained by them

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[candid briar]

followup question
did the lady in far fields stab fourth chorus

[quick thorn]

probably

[muted lantern]

Sec sen also has the same rapid thrust attack as lace

[candid briar]

she talks about her sister being a killer but like

idk man you kinda seemed to (at least think) you murdered fourth chorus and seem quite content with life

[celest notch]

THE LORE

[candid briar]

like its body is just right next door

[quick thorn]

which is also the pin art for wanderer crest

[muted lantern]

Must be a common pin technique

[quick thorn]

it was probably her final act
Anyway she leaves it for us to kill ;)

[muted lantern]

The classic stab really fast

[crisp basalt]

He does it as counter follow up as lace does

[foggy fractal]

Our grand Citadel learnt well from the training of Pinstresses past. Then it went and turned those teachings upon us! Despite our superior skills, our numbers have always been few and their strength overwhelmed. - Pinstress

So the order of pinstresses was once allied with the citadel, and presumably the citadel encorporated those skills learned into constructs such as the Second Sentinel

[edgy nebula]

i wonder if second sentinel having the same x slash move means they trained sentinels on pinstress movements

[muted lantern]

I wonder if lace learned her fast stab from second senti

[edgy nebula]

aah i didnt realize she said this

[crisp basalt]

Nah, I think Lace leaned from Pintresses then

[muted lantern]

Do pinstressed do the rapid stab?

I don't remember

[edgy nebula]

i wish mottled skarr didnt die, hes a fun character

[foggy fractal]

nah

[crisp basalt]

Not one we fight