sk-lore

[ember river]

I'm not sure but Nyleth has the highest chance of being a higher being out of all the characters in Silksong

[terse warren]

Are PK and WL related to it aside from the Charm

[modest coyote]

other than gms obviosuly

[obsidian quail]

she does seem very similar to Unn

[terse warren]

GMS probably has a higher chance

[twin dragon]

The knight is part pale part higher being

[ember river]

The Knight is a different thing

[last ruin]

the "press A" doesn't make sense to be canon, the rest at least kinda does. plus it's written differently so to me it seems like it says the lore tablet thing and then tells the player how to do that because the game needs SOME tutorial

[edgy barn]

You got the infinite soul statues in PoP and PV knowing soul spells

[modest coyote]

isnt lace called a pale child?

[covert tusk]

That and or just like the more vague definition of soul vs the literal substance, given Silk is described as Pale yet she’s silk only

[twin dragon]

And then the rest is abyss

[ember river]

GMS has a higher chance, so high in fact that it's 1

[obsidian quail]

i just remember that it’s rare to have multiple higher beings in a place and i feel like they would have said if nyleth was since they’re a big deal

[terse warren]

Well Soul Master and Snail Shamans are also a thing

[modest coyote]

if so isnt this an example of a pale being that isnt higer

[ember river]

No, I'm basing it off the charm

[obsidian quail]

indeed she is

[mighty jolt]

Man I hope the Godseekers show up in Pharloom because it would give team cherry so much liberty to explain all this crap while also giving me a chance to radiant all the new bosses without the awful walkbacks and gauntlets.

[ember river]

And the fact that their white glow is reminiscent of soul's

[twin dragon]

Or maybe that is a metaphor...

[covert tusk]

Also can I just say I love the attention to detail that even without many weavers, Pharloom just naturally has more spider like bugs like the vault keepers or those Pharlid thingies? Really makes the geography of the world feel more alive

[ancient dock]

I can see Nyleth being a HB because she doesn’t age and we used the needolin to get to her but Kahnn and Karmelita are definitely not

[terse warren]

It makes sense but the evidence is a bit scarce ngl

[obsidian quail]

or maybe they call her Pale child because her mom is Pale

[whole holly]

should i get all the possible upgrades before fighting lace for second time?

[versed agate]

I don't think so, it's more like dark souls where the dark soul(void) is the true self, raw emotion and a mind that can think but doesn't because it's trapped. And the white soul(soul and shell) is the conscious mind

[twin dragon]

Nyleth's kinda dead

[ember river]

So I'd assume Pale Beings are sources of soul energy, like GMS is the primal source of silk and the Kingsoul produces infinite soul

[modest coyote]

true

[ember river]

We don't get much specifics ingame so we can only speculate

[terse warren]

We used the Needolin to get to the other two as well and they're also still alive (barely)

[twin dragon]

GMS seems to be able to produce inf silk

[dapper willow]

I think team cherry can come up with a more novel solution to a bossrush than the godseekers again

[edgy barn]

Soul master's experiments were forbbiden by the king and he hated him for it. Snail shamans were also shunned and PV's spells don't coincide with any of the known shamans in hallownest.

[ember river]

Yeah, that's what I think

[modest coyote]

true although i wonder what it will be

[twin dragon]

I'd honestly take the godseekers if they expand the lore

[ember river]

Pale Beings are sources of soul energy and that's why they glow that way

[ancient dock]

They both have physical bodies though

[obsidian quail]

Soul is definitely the other side of Void so that makes sense

[terse warren]

They do coincide with rune rage which is interesting because the Weavers seem to kinda hate PK

[modest coyote]

mossbafg explain ts to us please

[ember river]

I wouldn't call it the other side of void as much as another universal force with different properties

[twin dragon]

What the fuck is the white lady though

[modest coyote]

TRUE

[terse warren]

Nyleth's body is Shellwood

[terse warren]

Root

[ember river]

She's a root that can produce soul apparently

[modest coyote]

white lady is a pale higher being and she doesnt even have any powers

[twin dragon]

Soul seems to be related to the void in some part

[obsidian quail]

doesn’t void attack stuff with soul and the fact that having a soul is the opposite of being empty/void

[dapper willow]

MOSSBAG
Even if you are wrong I will chant your lore as the gospel truth
Speak to us great knower!

[modest coyote]

literally what does white lady do

[obsidian quail]

and the Light vs Dark thing

[ember river]

Not using powers in front of you =/= Not having powers

[ancient dock]

Is this stated in game?

[modest coyote]

shers a fraud

[twin dragon]

Like the void is attracted and can be summoned by using soul

[obsidian quail]

has children

[modest coyote]

uhh well we see its memory

[obsidian quail]

and also Void seems to be able to take over Soul stuff

[covert tusk]

So does lifeblood now more than ever, given wormways was untouched in act 3 by void

[obsidian quail]

like it’s the other side of the coin

[edgy barn]

There's a lot of evidence that the weavers were involved with the vessel project. They might have hated PK but they likely knew that it was Deepnest's best shot at surviving the infection.

[mighty jolt]

Just a bit back on this; the lore tablet only says the part before "press A", the game explicitly doesn't load the second half unless you hold on that screen for a second, and it uses a different font.

[twin dragon]

Or maybe it's too far away

[ancient dock]

Yes after needolin near a shrine

[dapper willow]

I realize you are right with Saviour

[terse warren]

It's kinda implied, since Shellwood sprouted from her, and you get her heart from a vine that sprouts from the ground. She does also say "Without us, is there even life?" Iirc

[twin dragon]

Mind you it's a cave system, not many places to extend string

[covert tusk]

I’m p sure literally EVERY other area was affected so I don’t agree

[ember river]

Void lashes out when it senses soul rather than at inert things, yes, but we've also seen many creatures with both soul and void inside them and they're fine (kind of).
Kingsmoulds and wingsmoulds are constructs made from those two elements, and Vessels also have both

[twin dragon]

Not just with saviour, but with jiji in the first game

[mighty jolt]

On the subject of it being a cave... where is the light coming from?

[sand spruce]

i'd love to see more "land of storms"-like areas tbh

[dapper willow]

I don't trust the death mechanics in the first or the second game

[twin dragon]

Neither was upper cradle

[obsidian quail]

can’t they be opposite and still coexist under certain conditions

[dapper willow]

YES

[twin dragon]

yeah but they're related sooo

[versed agate]

The light comes from the citadel

[obsidian quail]

they seem like two sides of a coin

especially with how TK’s soul attacks turn to Void

[twin dragon]

Nor the remnants of verdania

[ember river]

I'm reluctant to believe this because there are other universal forces that are also obliterated by Void, like Essence

[dapper willow]

I reaally don't want "respawning at a bench" to be canon because its just so dumb

[terse warren]

It's not

[twin dragon]

I dont think it is

[dapper willow]

and keep it that way

[obsidian quail]

that’s true but i’m also going off the notion that Pale = Soul and we know Pale stuff counters Void

[twin dragon]

what when why

Fym counters void

[mighty jolt]

Pretty sure both games respawning isn't canon. But I think the HK "your shell cracking and shade coming out" is more or less canon for what happens when vessels die.

[last ruin]

pale stuff doesn't seem to counter void, only the everbloom does

[terse warren]

It counters Void because it's light not being it's Pale

[ember river]

We also know that pale beings can die to the void according to the White Lady (and we literally see GMS die to void)

[twin dragon]

The abyss ate up gms like a popsicle

[terse warren]

Lumaflies also counter Void I don't think they're Pale Beings lol

[dapper willow]

the only thing that we know that counters void is the flower, and maybe intense light

[obsidian quail]

the everbloom counters Void and its pale and PK’s pale light nerfed the void

[ember river]

The Everbloom countering void seems more unique to the Everbloom than to all pale beings

[twin dragon]

Flower's weird as hell

[terse warren]

Tbh even the Everbloom died in the Void sea after a while

[mighty jolt]

God I'm so glad they didn't keep the lore aspect of "incredibly fragile and breaks in 1 hit" in Silksong. Imagine having to do all of the walk from the chapel to the abyss dive hitless.

[dapper willow]

the curse of the soft magic system strikes again

[last ruin]

pale king didn't do anything to it, and we don't know what the flower is or what it comes from

[obsidian quail]

PK’s Pale light countered the Void and PK says Void is the enemy opposed

[ember river]

Well, the lighthouse wasn't pale and it still worked

[obsidian quail]

i thought the lighthouse was using pale light

[terse warren]

It's using lumaflies

[twin dragon]

Yeah, the everbloom seems to be either something on its own, or a huge concentrate of soul due to what took hornet to obtain it

[versed agate]

I remember reading a line the other day about "void being a god of gods" but I can't remember where it's from, am I crazy?

[obsidian quail]

I CANT KEEP TRACK OF ALL THESE LIGHTS AND COLORS

[terse warren]

The Void simply doesn't like light

[twin dragon]

3 hearts of powerful things and a cracked shaman spell

[ember river]

PK saying that void is the power opposed sounds to me like Radiance calling it "Ancient Enemy"

[weak kayak]

where did the snail shamans go after you collect all 3 hearts?

[last ruin]

godhome ending basically

[ember river]

To the grave

[dapper willow]

I think lumaflies are just normal light and the void just gets a bit shy when light hits it

[obsidian quail]

that’s true i was going to say that Radiance also seems to counter Void

[weak kayak]

oh they just straight up died?

[dapper willow]

Dead

[last ruin]

seemingly disintigrate themselves during the spell

[mighty jolt]

The "god of gods" is what the godseeker's seek; they think it's the radiance until you kill her and become the shade lord, whereupon they worship you... and explode.

[terse warren]

Radiance is probably calling Vessels ancient enemy not Void ngl

The Vessels have been around for generations and Hallownest is a dead kingdom, I doubt calling them ancient is a stretch

[weak kayak]

also can the void control people as seen in the lost lace?

[ember river]

Well, then again, Radiance is made of Essence, which is another of the big powers of the world

[ember river]

That could also be the case, yes

[dapper willow]

that memory spell seemed hella strong
It was too much for them to handle aparently
All that to mimic a fraction of the power of a higher being

[terse warren]

She also emits light

[twin dragon]

The void seems to be able to take control of soul

[ember river]

That too

[last ruin]

not directly, that was because it was latching onto silk

[twin dragon]

Esp with the strings in act 3

[ember river]

Lost Lace in the lore is kinda confusing but the rest of the voided bugs are just Haunted

[twin dragon]

And the spells from the first game

[ember river]

Including Garmond

[mighty jolt]

Lost lace is just the same thing. Void controlling the string.

[twin dragon]

Probably because she's basically entirely silk, and silk is soul, void loves soul

[last ruin]

:(

[obsidian quail]

i thought it was the Pale light of the flowers that countered Void

[terse warren]

Void is just afraid of light

[dapper willow]

I think the void bugs are just haunted, and the void in them lashes out at anything that moves

[obsidian quail]

it even says wards against the void

[last ruin]

maybe? the flower just kinda does that shit

we don't know how or why

[obsidian quail]

it says the pale light is the factor that wards against the void

[ember river]

The flower does, but that's the unique quality about it

GMS also emitted white light and she died anyways

[obsidian quail]

it says glows with pale light that wards against the void

[dapper willow]

i wonder if there are other ways to counter the void in the world
Maybe something wit the power of hope?

[ember river]

And even the Everbloom is eventually consumed

[obsidian quail]

as in it’s the light that does it

[twin dragon]

Void seems to be attracted to power

[terse warren]

I think I would shoot myself

[mighty jolt]

This does genuinely seem to be true. The lighthouse in HK is just lumaflies and it still supressed the void enough to make it safe to swim in.

[twin dragon]

GMS COULD resist void for a while though

[obsidian quail]

how are lumaflies made again

[ember river]

Well, yeah, but it was doomed anyways

[dapper willow]

Thats a bit extreme

[terse warren]

...just like the everbloom lol

[terse warren]

They're just flies

[versed agate]

What if life is resistant to void because it gives off light

[ember river]

Lumaflies just reproduce, lay eggs, and get new lumaflies

[terse warren]

If TC puts the power of friendship as the counter to the Void I don't think it's extreme

[ember river]

They are NOT the same glowy bugs from silksong

[ember river]

I'm going to silkshot myself

[mighty jolt]

when a mommy and daddy lumafly love eachother very much

[obsidian quail]

oh they’re natural unlike the flies in silksong

[sand spruce]

the real everbloom was the friends we made along the way

[dapper willow]

hope is not friendship
And I based it off of the theory that void comes from regrets
Would make some thematic sense

[twin dragon]

Everbloom is most likely soul aswell

[ember river]

Considering all those lines of dialogue are death lore I take them with a grain of salt

[terse warren]

Void doesn't really come from regrets, Jiji calling back our Shade isn't even canon

Our Shade is the first time Jiji sees Void anyways

[dapper willow]

see my previous comments*
I don't always try to speculate on harcore solid facts

[terse warren]

Everything is soul that's what life is made of

[versed agate]

Jiji is a shaman and Shaman do void magic

[obsidian quail]

screw pale beings and screw pale light

[mighty jolt]

I think that Jiji's regret line, even if canon, is basically just talking about the fact "you fucking died and probably aren't happy about that".

[obsidian quail]

ancient civilization >>>>

[terse warren]

Snail Shamans do Void magic, and they didn't in the first game, and Jiji is an assistant of the Masters, and the Masters hate Void

[ember river]

Jiji is not a shaman

[sand spruce]

we need more ancient civilization lore

[ember river]

She's a confessor

[dapper willow]

I have heard someone theorize about void being monofocus
or associated with being that

[terse warren]

She does take the same role as Sula did for Zi

[molten parcel]

Whar

[mighty jolt]

they didn't in the first game
Except they kinda did, indirectly. 2 of the 3 void spells are from absorbing the shamans.

[versed agate]

What about descending dark?

[terse warren]

Sigh

I should learn wiki bot commands

[ember river]

You're mistaking Jiji for Jinn, Jiji is the normal one

[molten parcel]

Btw the shamans didnt summon the void in the true ending, they just Open a portal from the abyss to the cradle to take GMS

[mighty jolt]

And sula is the normal one for Zi.

[obsidian quail]

so we all agree the Vessels and Hornet are Pale

[ember river]

Also in the first game one of the shamans knew Descending Dark, but the main one is in awe of the Knight getting void spells, and confused as to how it got it

[terse warren]

Nope, Jiji is to Jinn what Sula was to Zi

[dapper willow]

I agree with this
I have expressed this myself too

[molten parcel]

Hornet implies abyss is everywhwre

[ember river]

Oh wait Zi is the steel soul one?

[mighty jolt]

I agree to shelve this debate until more evidence comes around.

[molten parcel]

"i feel no matter where i go i Will always find it if i go deep enough"

[dapper willow]

I really get the vibes that the shamans learned more about the void between games

[molten parcel]

So abyss is a whole layer of earth it seems

[dapper willow]

or that the base game shaman was mostly ignorant as to what his family was doing

[obsidian quail]

why was it called Pale Lake

[twin dragon]

Ehhhh, true but also not true

[obsidian quail]

why is everything Pale

it makes things confusing when they spam that word

[dapper willow]

We really sound like we want to strange team cherry for making evertything pale

[twin dragon]

Soul seems to be able to be extracted from life but life isn't made out of soul

[kind steeple]

Is hornet a pale being?

[ember river]

I agree, but it is what it is

[last ruin]

TC did it to annoy you specifically

[molten parcel]

Daughter of one

[winter iris]

She ain't beating the allegations.

[terse warren]

"That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... it's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing. Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look."

dialogue for Abyss Shriek

[mighty jolt]

We just had this discussion and the answer is "ehhhhhhh IDK"

[terse warren]

"What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.

Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way."

dialogue for Shade Soul

[kind steeple]

Do pale beings have halos?

[twin dragon]

They don't teach you the abyss spells, you sniff them up

[molten parcel]

Shamans didnt really control the void
The void is impossible to control

[obsidian quail]

i’m not annoyed just puzzled

idk what is what anymore

[dapper willow]

skitzo lore rant of the day

[obsidian quail]

some stuff is pale and white, other stuff is white but not pale

[twin dragon]

Sniffing a shaman probably increases the soul control one has ig

[obsidian quail]

some stuff is pale because why not

[terse warren]

we make the void spells, the shamans weren't related to the void at all

[twin dragon]

Enabling it to mix with the void

[twin dragon]

Not explicitly saying that

[dapper willow]

would align with GROAL lore

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[molten parcel]

Groal uses vengeful spitir

[dapper willow]

not really...
just a spell similar to it

[ember river]

I think White and Pale are descriptors that unless indicated otherwise just mean it's white-colored. If the thing in particular clearly has some more interesting quality then it can be discussed, but they can still be used to just describe colors I guess

[twin dragon]

Soul spell is soul spell

[molten parcel]

Pre citadel groal 100% real no fake /JJJJJJJJ

[mighty jolt]

So was the coral tower originally underwater or did water just flow over it?

[ember river]

Also, Hornet is called a Higher Being by Zi apparently

[dapper willow]

source of the water

[ember river]

"...Bug... Higher... It has come seeking... Zi is found... She is awoken."

[twin dragon]

She's half higher being, half half higher being

[dapper willow]

WHAT EVEN IS THE LORE ANYMORE 😭

[obsidian quail]

i just don’t understand why they would continue to use the adjective description of very special beings and put it all over the place

[terse warren]

over it seemingly since that's what we saw in old trailers

[molten parcel]

Was herrah a weaver?
If not
How can hornet produce silk on her shell

[twin dragon]

They only use it for white lady, pale king and gms

[ember river]

Considering Higher Beings live for extreme timespans, perhaps they need to undergo some sort of ascension, like Hornet becoming the WQ or the Knight becoming Void Given Form/Focus?

[pliant meadow]

She was

[terse warren]

she is but it's a retcon, she wasn't in the first game

[dapper willow]

she was a weaver according to silksong
Hollow knight doesn't say

[twin dragon]

Herrah being a weaver is kinda weird due to her not looking like one at all

[molten parcel]

I mean widow exists

[mighty jolt]

Yeah that was clearly a hard retcon.

[ember river]

Widow still looks like a weaver

[twin dragon]

she's not similar to herrah at ALL

[dapper willow]

It is said that hornet is in a transitional state so I guess it makes sense for her to be sorta higher being
Parents not mentioned

[pliant meadow]

Widow had her mask removed

[molten parcel]

🤷

[twin dragon]

THere must be another reason since the weaver you find running away after getting weaversong is also quite different

[dapper willow]

more like a soft retcon because it was never really said what she was aside from a common beast?

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/silk-and-song-silksong-hornet-hollow-knight-minecraft-gif-3101583980423722295

[pseudo charm]

herrah lowkey bulking if she's a weaver

[dapper willow]

also all weavers look diffenret
What is to say they can't look even more different
idk

[pseudo charm]

a lot of weavers look similar though??

[twin dragon]

Widow, FS, bound weavers around the world, little weaver thingies in deepnest, the weaver that runs away in deepnest, they all look alike

[dapper willow]

Bugs seem to be able to take on many varying forms despite being the same species

[molten parcel]

Shouldnt silksong perma death mode be called steel silk

[twin dragon]

Silk is soul so it makes sense still

[dapper willow]

still waiting for the HK lore patch I guess

[mighty jolt]

Man I have had to cheat so much on steel soul so far, don't tell anyone.

[twin dragon]

buddy uh oh

[spring escarp]

I am 300% sure the barnacle area will be tot he left of wormways.

[pseudo charm]

steel SOUL refers to the player's bravery in doing that challenge to have a literal steel soul

[twin dragon]

Who's gonna tell bro

[dapper willow]

I wouldn't
I savescummed in my og run too

[last ruin]

i just remembered, wasn't there supposed to be a silk soul gamemode that was more interesting than just permadeath?

[spring escarp]

And the ceiling enemy will show up again

Glasssoul

[terse warren]

image 1 and 4 are both herrah btw

[twin dragon]

Fat spider

[spring escarp]

One hit = death

[last ruin]

same, i would never have gotten 100% in a reasonable amount of time otherwise

[terse warren]

they quite literally retconned her appearance

[ember river]

If you die, you die in real life

[sand spruce]

i think so, aren't there like scrapped steel characters?

[edgy barn]

HK lore patch notes:

-all mentions of Herrah being a beast have been replaced with "Weaver"
-Herrah now has her design from the red memory.
-Little Weavers have been removed from the game.

[pseudo charm]

I feel like glados has a perfect line for this

[spring escarp]

palmer luckey C4 VR headset

[terse warren]

they weren't related to steel soul

[pliant meadow]

Well maybe not, she probably wore something different than normal for her eternal slumber

[twin dragon]

Fym she looks almost the same

[terse warren]

her fat ass is fully gone

[twin dragon]

And the mask all of the dreamers wear aren't their face

[dapper willow]

may we repeat this dance some other day as well

[ember river]

NOOO, my headcanon about Little Weavers being weaver experiments to produce offspring by uplifting Deepnest bugs

[twin dragon]

Holy shit its over we're all going to explode

[pseudo charm]

little weavers look kinda like masked pharlids

[pliant meadow]

She probably just gained a little weight it's not that much of a difference

[ember river]

They act nothing alike though

[pseudo charm]

with little cloaks

[dapper willow]

Maybe she was just stress eating from having to go to eternal sleep and got hella overweight

[pseudo charm]

blame it on evolution

[twin dragon]

Lil weavers are PROBABLY weavers reproducing with local deepnest fauna...

[ember river]

Bruh

[terse warren]

it's extremely hard for weavers to reproduce btw

[molten parcel]

Herrah fat?

[terse warren]

like, nigh impossible

[sinful nimbus]

Little Weavers aren't canon anymore pack it up 💔

[twin dragon]

Citadel records show numerous half breed weavers captured

So apparently not

[versed agate]

Pale king has magic god sperm

[pseudo charm]

isnt there a line in portal 2 where its like

"Typically people tend to lose a few pounds while in the relaxation vaults. Congratulations for managing to pack on a few" or smth

[ember river]

Show 4

[dapper willow]

but it still happens with hornet and the little weavers
I doubt they would have made it this far othervise

[ember river]

From different kingdoms

[mighty jolt]

Team cherry updates HK with lore patch, full patch notes:

• All references to Flukemarm have been updated to confirm she is a Pale Higher Being

[twin dragon]

3 at the cradle, one from a choral commandment

[ember river]

The choral commandment one is Hornet

[pliant meadow]

Well, quarter and eighth breeds

[twin dragon]

Still a half breed weaver guh

[twin dragon]

You get it

[pseudo charm]

is GMS hunting down weavers to be petty or smth

[sand spruce]

team cherry really doesn't like any form of mothers for some reason, they all die or smthn 😭

[ember river]

Yeah, from Herrah, they didn't go for any of the abundant little weavers in Hallownest at any point

[pseudo charm]

white lady

[pliant meadow]

Hey white lady lives

[twin dragon]

Probably because they're infected

[dapper willow]

not really
Hunter survives if you do her quest

[versed agate]

Just released dream gate existing is actually crazy

[terse warren]

"Eva: I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?"

[ember river]

Huntress
Otherwise it gets confusing with HK's Hunter

[twin dragon]

Well uh seems to contradict itself

[dapper willow]

Confirmed
Hunter from HK is a mother now

[terse warren]

nigh impossible doesn't mean it never happens

[ember river]

No? 3 other captures over a probably very long timespan is ridiculous

[terse warren]

actually the time span is probs recent because the haunting is also kinda recent

[twin dragon]

4*

[ember river]

It claims it has no offspring, or followers, or anything and passes everything to the Knight

[pseudo charm]

hornet is a lot older in silksong, so maybe all the little weavers died

ESPECIALLY because they might be infected husks of little weavers that die when the infection is dealt with

[ember river]

3 other

[mighty jolt]

Clearly, they just are using bug logic, where all other bugs just f*** their brains out to produce hundreds of kids and the weavers can only have 1-2 a year.

[dapper willow]

didn't he kill his kids or something
Thats totally misremembered probably

[twin dragon]

And i dont see what prevented deepnest weavers from breeding all over the place

[rain gate]

he says hes never had a mate

[pliant meadow]

No that was his siblings

[ember river]

He played with his siblings to hunt each other, not the children

[terse warren]

the fact that it was nigh impossible

[sinful nimbus]

No but he did kill his pet

[ember river]

Oh yeah

[twin dragon]

But not impossible

[pseudo charm]

I think it was just super painful???

[ember river]

Don't you love contradicting established, clearly provided lore?

[ember river]

It was also nigh impossible

Painful, too

[terse warren]

i mean

[dapper willow]

but they had to do it to survive so they tried their best

[sinful nimbus]

If the intent was for weavers to have trouble reproducing they probably wouldn't have put their children as common enemies all over Deepnest but what can you do

[rain gate]

"nigh impossible" means really really hard

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@cheese_vviz used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[last ruin]

i mean... "recent" might be a stretch, but we really have no timescale for that

[mighty jolt]

I mean we also don't know how much they tried. They could have been having kids over thousands of bugyears.

[ember river]

Or impossible for the vast majority of them

[terse warren]

Also Shamans in Silksong "You should know well the obsessions of our family"

[rain gate]

waiter! another timeline discussion!

[pseudo charm]

did act 3 feel like cramming in hollow knight lore to you all?

[dapper willow]

seven years is a long time to change one's mind
And maybe forget some details

[twin dragon]

I mean mind you a few weavers could've have been impregnated and then whatever pops out keeps the cycle of nature

[pseudo charm]

like at the start at least

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[terse warren]

pretty sure we meet multiple people that remember how it all was before the haunting

[twin dragon]

Not rlly

[sinful nimbus]

Waiter more callbackslop please

[ember river]

Kind of

[dapper willow]

even big companies forget some details and accidentally retcone some stuff
It happens

[terse warren]

50/50

[pseudo charm]

half expected to see the infection come back from hk </3

[last ruin]

kinda but it makes sense in universe

[last ruin]

we meet multiple people from before the infection in HK too

[ember river]

They tied it together fine enough but the void kinda came out of nowhere

[twin dragon]

They brought back the abyss... and make the very shaman shaped npcs shamans...

[silk dirge]

i mean they are annoying ass enemies i would have no problem if they straight up removed them

they jumpscare you with fucking monkey sounds

[terse warren]

the void was kinda out of left field, the shamans were foreshadowed so they're fine

[runic wraith]

Reading some of the act 3 lore tablets in ||the abyss||, did ||other bugs use the void to give themselves hollowness other than how the pale king did with the vessels?||

[ember river]

They seemingly tried

[silk dirge]

that being said its not like pharlids are less annoying

[last ruin]

they seem to have tried. doesn't seem like it worked considered they're all gone

[mighty jolt]

Act 3 felt super rushed TBH. Stuff like the coral tower being reduced to just an afterthought, and it and Lost Verdania being way too easy for that point, and Nyleth being a trivial boss fight easier than Seth and both are just kinda shoved into a tiny niche of the map.

[dapper willow]

I don't even mind void showing up again because I would like to see more void lore and I got what I wanted

[silk dirge]

bc pharlids are annoying little fuckers

[rain gate]

they seem to envy the void's hollowness, and yeah tried like people are saying

[terse warren]

the moment HallowScribe is updated with silksong we party

[twin dragon]

And it somewhat furthers the idea that snail shamans somehow knew about the void

[dapper willow]

I wouldn't call her "trivial"
Boss difficulty opinions are all over the place
I wouldn't put salt on it

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@cheese_vviz used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[twin dragon]

Weird

[mighty jolt]

Fair, but I beat the boss fight by just pogoing with wanderers crest for the entire fight.

[terse warren]

it furthers an idea that was clearly denied in game 1

[pseudo charm]

the snail shamans seem to be dead when they give you the everbloom?

maybe the summoning of the flower killed them idk lol

[dapper willow]

Seth being back to back to nyleth is a bit odd though
I did not like that

[rancid dagger]

yeah i've seen people struggle more with nyleth than lost lace tbh

[terse warren]

they seem to give their soul for it

[pseudo charm]

genuinely how though

lost last is so fast

[twin dragon]

Then how and why is silk snare void related

[dapper willow]

of course
Wanderer's crest
Should have know
My hatred grows again

[rancid dagger]

i just took that as them putting Seth's character in a cool place where it could fit tbh

[terse warren]

retcon

[sinful nimbus]

They enhance the Deepnest experience. At that point there's a decent chance you just trapped yourself in the region by sitting at the hot spring bench, so they start ramping up the scare factor with weavers appearing from nowhere, corpses reanimating, creepy crawlies acting as environmental hazards, and Nosk.

[silk dirge]

snail shamans were always sussy

[pseudo charm]

canonically hornet uses hunters crest without switching (beyond getting them) change my mind

[rancid dagger]

you can be good at reacting to a boss but bad at airborne combat and projectile spam

[twin dragon]

or maybe mr snail shaman from the first game is very obviously lying to your face

[silk dirge]

yeah but have you thought of the fact its deepnest and i fucking hate all of it

[rancid dagger]

canonically hornet can alter her nature to fit any of the crests she finds im pretty sure

[terse warren]

why would he ever do that that'd be awful writing, plus he has no reason to

[silk dirge]

even though thats the intended experience

[sinful nimbus]

Deepnest second best region 🥱

[terse warren]

after Resting Ground for sure

[pseudo charm]

snail shaman could be somehow born by others? dont they have family trees?

[sinful nimbus]

Move Greenpath to B and that's my current opinion

[silk dirge]

GREENPATH IN C IS FIGHTING WORDS

[rancid dagger]

yeah but it was pretty clear they didn't know about void / using the void

[silk dirge]

same with b

[last ruin]

what's the second thing in A?

[pseudo charm]

I never found deepnest scary lol

but its NOT fun to go through

[sinful nimbus]

White Palace

[twin dragon]

Same guy who used you as pest control btw

[silk dirge]

also crystal peak in c is crazy

[ember river]

Deepnest in S and waterway in B

[twin dragon]

Wouldn't be surprised

[silk dirge]

crystal peak is peak

[rancid dagger]

i'd trade KE with deepnest and pretty much good tierlist, maybe CP in B

[terse warren]

he had a reason in that case he has no reason to lie about the abyss

[runic wraith]

maybe im crazy but this item sounds strangely similar to "foresight" and it looks like the head of a wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

Annoying enemies boring aesthetic and linear

[last ruin]

ah. fair i guess, i was never a big fan but i know a lot of people like it

[rancid dagger]

it's a telescope

[mighty jolt]

you are crazy, mhm

[dapper willow]

Back at it again
I guess
Its not impossible to learn about the void and its clear that a considerable time has passed between games
Just because the shamans didn't know about void in the first game doesn't mean they couldn't have learned about it in between
BUt then again the case for a retcon is more reasonable, and I'm not gonna be a blind team cherry apologist

[silk dirge]

i agree with annoying enemies but crystals are cool as fuck what are you talking about

[twin dragon]

I mean the guy very obviously seems to know what it is

[pseudo charm]

I would LOVE a silksong mod just for harder platforming lol

[terse warren]

even if they learned about it in between games it wouldn't change that it's a retcon

[last ruin]

i mean it's also all different shamans

[rancid dagger]

i would agree if the shamans didnpt say that hornet should know about their kind's fixations tbh

[silk dirge]

you clearly never watched the tv series about that crystal cave they discovered while mining in mexico

[terse warren]

except for the line in which he clearly says his kind never thought to look there???

[dapper willow]

why
I don't understand

[runic wraith]

mod with several parkour gauntlets

[last ruin]

so the pharloom shamans could know and the hallownest ones not

[mighty jolt]

Do we have any lore for whisps?

[sinful nimbus]

Colorful magical crystals are a dime a dozen

[pseudo charm]

Shamans have family trees with uncles and all that

that implies the snail shaman we see could be born outside of the abyss and not be told about the abyss

IF THEY WERE BORN IN THE ABYSS

[sinful nimbus]

Even Silksong has them

[mint furnace]

• retcon

• looks inside

• adding lore to a vaguely explained aspect of the story

[twin dragon]

He mentions that twice for some reason

[ember river]

One of the shamans is able to cast Descending Dark, perhaps they found an alternate way to call the void, like what Sula does?

[terse warren]

that directly contradicts previous info

[sinful nimbus]

No shaman has ever cast descending dark

[twin dragon]

reading people skills 0

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@cheese_vviz used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[rancid dagger]

no, he recognizes the power but you are the one who twists it into the void version

[silk dirge]

ok but consider the fact i watched a documentary on these in 6th grade and its so peak i can never see anything with crystals as less than peak now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Crystals

[ember river]

My friend. My friend. There's another quality about you yet. You didn't perchance visit my fourth aunt?
She makes her home beside that Crystal Mount. Leaves quite an impression on those that seek her out. Were I not bound here, I'd love to visit myself.

[mint furnace]

There’s almost nothing in SS that contradicts info in hollow knight

[terse warren]

@ember river we created DDark

[sinful nimbus]

Its cool in real life

[terse warren]

[rancid dagger]

he recognizes his aunt power, which you twist into DDark with the void

[pseudo charm]

2/3 abyss spells are gathered from snail shaman corpses :p

[mint furnace]

And if there is, it’s so unobtrusive and nitpicky of a detail that it barely matters

[terse warren]

#sk-lore message

[sinful nimbus]

The void in those spells comes from The Knight

[rancid dagger]

im so tired of posting this image

[mighty jolt]

Incorrect. The desolate dive comes from the soul master.

[terse warren]

Void Heart suddenly doesn't unify the Void

[ember river]

Isn't the original spell Desolate Dive, which he attributes someone else?

[rancid dagger]

the desolate dive yes, but not whatever power you turn into ddark

[mighty jolt]

That's desolate dive.

[ember river]

Ah ho! I'm sensing new power about you, one that'll crack the rock beneath us. A useful thing for one looking to travel ever deeper.
My third uncle used to possess similar abilities. He also possessed a ferocious temper! Ohohoho! What a dreadful combination.

Desolate Dive comes from his third uncle, not his fourth aunt

[mint furnace]

Again, that is such a nitpick

[silk dirge]

it was made when hallownest was the only kingdom thus it only unifies the void in hallownest

[rancid dagger]

just like vengeful spirit comes from the snail shaman but you get shade soul from another shaman and he still says you are the one who twists it

[silk dirge]

thats my logic

[pseudo charm]

soul master stole DDive from some shaman but forgot to kidnap them </3

[mint furnace]

One line of info from a description? How DARE they expand on it

[rancid dagger]

pharloom predates void heart

by a lot

[sinful nimbus]

You use his aunt to transform his uncles spell into something that contains your own essence

[mint furnace]

Team cherry adding lore to their 7 year old game???!? How dare they

[silk dirge]

i mean like in irl terms

[terse warren]

except it says "The Void" and not Hallownest's Void

[ember river]

I guess that's the case

[twin dragon]

Not true since in the true ending we clearly see how the knight halts the void

[dapper willow]

you vindicate me

[silk dirge]

anything in hollow knight that says it applies to all of something only is meant to apply to hallownest because thats the only kingdom that existed for team cherry at that time

[sinful nimbus]

Void Heart was integral to the first game's story

[terse warren]

One of the most important items in the lore suddenly working in a different way isn't a nitpick it's massive

[twin dragon]

We see it work in the true ending though?

[terse warren]

that's still a retcon

[mint furnace]

And not silksongs, so your point being?

[silk dirge]

fair enough

[rancid dagger]

yeah but we are talking about the canon reason

[silk dirge]

retcon is such a fucking buzzword in this channel

[terse warren]

except we don't because the knight has to attack the void tendrils

[pseudo charm]

doesnt void heart unify the void??

and silksongs ending shows that it unified the ENTIRE void. or atleast a large chunk that includes hallownest AND pharloom

[ember river]

Okay
Who cares though, this is the new lore

The changes are so minimal

[terse warren]

it's not good new lore lmao

[mint furnace]

People throw it out with such negative connotations

[rancid dagger]

because there were lots of retcons in silksong, doesn't mean they are all bad

[sinful nimbus]

It retroactively changed a major detail in the first game's story to suit its own boring and bad narrative

[mint furnace]

I would not call them retcons

[ember river]

Then go to #hk-lore or something

[sinful nimbus]

That's bad writing and a retcon

[dapper willow]

there are no tendrils after he shows up though

[rancid dagger]

more like people take retcons negatively

[terse warren]

Void Heart only working on some specific Void might be the most shit retcon i've ever seen

[mint furnace]

Retcon implies a SPECIFIC piece of well defined information was changed post its release

[vale kelp]

Wtf is going on

[ember river]

It works when the knight notices you

[mighty jolt]

I think almost all the retcons were good but I do agree that the Knight having to fight off the void isn't a great one. I think it's mostly there to give him something cool to do.

[mint furnace]

There is basically none of that in silksong

[twin dragon]

It is implied he attacks them, not that we see that happening, plus, the void tendrils are the ones to bring hornet and lace up

[mint furnace]

It’s just ADDITIONS

[terse warren]

the knight has to attack the tendrils doesn't seem like it's working to me

[sinful nimbus]

Its not an addition if it contradicts past lore, that's called a retcon

[terse warren]

we see it happening quite literally

[mint furnace]

I hear “lifeblood retcon” or “void retcon” no we just didn’t know about them

[silk dirge]

i mean to me it makes a lot of sense the void heart only unifies void in hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

We did

[ember river]

Wait how did lifeblood get retconned

[mint furnace]

There’s not a guy explaining all of void in hollow knight

[silk dirge]

the void heart is made of a charm that is the union of the rulers of hallownest

[twin dragon]

That or the "void" refers to the vessels

[vale kelp]

I thought void heart was like it gave the knight some sort of power over the void

[mint furnace]

Yeah exactly

[ember river]

Lifeblood was always this taboo thing

[rancid dagger]

you cant really argue these arent retcons:
Void heart, Snail Shamans knowing and using the void, herrah being a weaver
you can kind of argue for lifeblood being or not being a retcon

[pseudo charm]

I feel like control over the entire void is kinda overwhelming even for a hollow being lol

maybe thats the knight fighting instinct or smth

[vale kelp]

So like because of that the knight was able to protect hornet

[rancid dagger]

and im probably missing some on the retcons list

[barren beacon]

I just finished True ending for the first time and I have questions.

[ember river]

Was herrah stated not to be a weaver though?

[silk dirge]

i just think people here need to think about how absurd it would be for the knight to unify all void in the world

[vale kelp]

I thought the void was always a unified entity to some extent

[silk dirge]

thats some crazy bullshit

[pseudo charm]

TBF there had to be a good reason that joni was cast out

[sinful nimbus]

"a bit of a taboo" implies it was a mild social custom rather than a serious health risk

[rancid dagger]

she looks different than the other weavers and they redesigned her body in silksong

[twin dragon]

When does it state that herrah is not a weaver in the first game

[barren beacon]

Is the Void from Pharloom connected to Hallownest's? Or how did the Knight get there

[terse warren]

"a bit taboo" not a thing that fully destroys your body

Hornet can only take 8 masks of Lifeblood and that's due to her super strong shell, Salubra eats Lifeblood she should be fucking dead

[twin dragon]

Brother the redesign is literally MINIMAL, she still retains her shape

[dapper willow]

also?
All of the void being unified now that we know that the void is absolutely MASSIVE seems to be kinda insane though?
Like how much power does the knight have

[mint furnace]

Void heart I don’t get because we see the knight control the void, shamans again, we see one alive shaman and he never said he can’t do that, Herrah being a weaver is.. yeah that one’s dubious but it again was never explicitly stated she wasn’t

[rancid dagger]

except it's not absurd because that's what voidheart fucking does 😭

[barren beacon]

Or shade lord, I don't know, The Knight transforms into him for like a fucking second.

[vale kelp]

The void is probably connected

[terse warren]

the void seems to be an interconnected ocean at the bottom of the world

[ember river]

I didn't say "a bit taboo", I said taboo thing, which was also described as heresy apparently

[rancid dagger]

she literally gets half her body removed

what do you mean "minimal"

[twin dragon]

thats how hornet remembers her too

[sinful nimbus]

"a bit of a taboo" is the wording Salubra uses

[silk dirge]

except like i mentioned void heart was written specifically for hallownest bc its the only kingdom that existed in team cherry lore at the time

[ember river]

Salubra seems like a drug addict describing heroin in that line

[vale kelp]

The charm description is “An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.”

[terse warren]

void heart was for all the void and only then changed it to be only hallownest

[mint furnace]

Retcon: team cherry adds to the HK universe

[vale kelp]

UNDER THE BEARER’S WILL

[pseudo charm]

BUT THE KNIGHT HAS NO WILL!!! (trust)

[sinful nimbus]

No she doesn't you made that up - Also what heroin addicts are describing heroin as a "bit of a taboo"

[rancid dagger]

the knight has to attack the void tendrils, they don't control it
the shaman explicitly says his kind "never thought to look there" to "wherever you found that power" and he doesn't recognize the void in void spells, he just knows they are twisted in some way

[vale kelp]

Only said by the pale king tbf

[silk dirge]

i mean there was no "other void" until silksong

thats my point

[sinful nimbus]

Heroin addicts are generally those who understand the affects of heroin best for obvious reasons

[barren beacon]

Wait so did the Knight travel the whole way to Pharloom whilst Hornet was fighting Lost Lace?

[terse warren]

If Salubra is addicted to Lifeblood then by Silksong Logic she should be twice as big as she normally is and pulsating blue

[twin dragon]

The fact that herrah is somewhat skinnier doesn't mean that she was COMPLETELY redesigned ffs

[terse warren]

the void is still a single connected thing

[mint furnace]

Maybe he just doesn’t know about that ability, I doubt that one guy speaks for all shamans

[barren beacon]

Also again, What is the Knight? Cuz He is the Lord of Shades most of the cutscene but there's the split second he is the Shade Lord

[mighty jolt]

My personal belief is the the Voidheart allows the Knight to control the void, but it doesn't give him universal perfect control; it's more like him going "hey, void, do this". If he's around, he can control it, but if he shows up last minute he has to tell it to sit down and shut up with a little bit of violence.

[rancid dagger]

he probably just manifests there but we dont know to what extent their void powers go as the void given focus

[vale kelp]

I think the void was always unified to some extent

[terse warren]

"somewhat thinner"

[silk dirge]

yeah this is probably it

[barren beacon]

It's a sea

[sinful nimbus]

I mean you could look at them side by side

[pseudo charm]

maybe the knight noticed the pale light of GMS during all of act 3 and hurried over for funsies??

[vale kelp]

It just didn’t have one will

[mint furnace]

Again, to me a retcon (and the actual definition) is something that explicitly contradicts prior information

[rancid dagger]

you could argue that if the silksong shamans didn't say hornet "should've known about their kind's fixations" as if it was common knowledge

[mint furnace]

That just doesn’t happen, besides maybe void heart? I guess?

[twin dragon]

Ok, either way, herrah still doesn't look like a weaver lmao

[barren beacon]

May be she gained mass while sleeping?

[ember river]

Not sure if she's addicted to that, just wants to make money, or something but she's downplaying the effects of lifeblood when some child was called a fucking heretic over using lifeblood

[vale kelp]

The knight allowed it to unify under its will*

[sinful nimbus]

How void heart worked was explicit and demonstrated in the first game and now it was changed

[twin dragon]

And we see a diff weaver that's basically identical to the ones bound in silksong

[vale kelp]

But like, the void is still massive they didn’t immediately unify it all

[mint furnace]

It’s just the addition of information that team cherry, believe it or not, decided to expand the lore on after 7 years

[terse warren]

joni also isn't a mass of weird unkillable shit and she drank so much lifeblood she was called a heretic for it

[sinful nimbus]

Joni is more clearly magically linked to the substance, she's not just some random user

[rancid dagger]

can we pin a message explaining why voidheart was retconned im tired of vh discussion 😭

[terse warren]

?tag info retconpsa

[gleaming basin]

No tag retconpsa found in category info.

[barren beacon]

Wym retconned

[mighty jolt]

To be fair it didn't work on the Collector even in the first game.

[vale kelp]

The thing I’m trying to get at is that the word “void” can both refer to the whole or a part

[silk dirge]

paging this message we never actually know what team cherry meant https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/924457324800798731/1417701172487262320/image.png?ex=68da99db&is=68d9485b&hm=facffb88201569c64d34d65c6021c9ffb69d822e17e487c8a295a4a0c8ae544c&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[rancid dagger]

im gonna kms

[silk dirge]

in the void heart description

[sinful nimbus]

It sure worked on raw void

[sinful nimbus]

Kid named reading

[vale kelp]

Like I can say “I have water” you don’t have all the water in the universe

[mighty jolt]

I mean so did a lighthouse.

[silk dirge]

yes i got a 5 on ap lang and 4 on ap lit i can read thank you

[twin dragon]

Interesting how the knight "seems" to attack the void tendrils but at the same time use them to lift hornet and lace upwards

[rancid dagger]

clarifying =/= changing the way it works

[obsidian quail]

Hollow Knight clears Silksong i understand it now

[silk dirge]

thats the way they saw it maybe

[terse warren]

TK explicitly controls the Void in Silksong while also not controlling it other times

[rain gate]

that pacified it not controlled it

[barren beacon]

May Have taken control by force?

[vale kelp]

Void is treated grammatically like a substance in the game

[rancid dagger]

there was a lot of ambiguity sure, but voidheart was NOT ambiguous

[silk dirge]

maybe it always worked like that for them

[sinful nimbus]

Mfw we get an item description explicitly outlining how Void Heart works and then we are shown how void heart works but apparently TC can get away from bad writers because they explicitly said they can be bad writers

[vale kelp]

Exactly

[silk dirge]

the fact we are arguing means its ambiguous to me

[mighty jolt]

And I'd argue we never once saw the Knight control any void that wasn't part of his body. At best he worked with other void beings.

[terse warren]

like, the game contradicts itself

[vale kelp]

They can control void, they can’t control THE void

[twin dragon]

Ehh, doesn't convince me

[ember river]

Sounds like a good explanation

[barren beacon]

Me neither no

[vale kelp]

Omg can I get this point across

[sinful nimbus]

"Unites THE void under the bearer's will"

[rancid dagger]

the voidheart's description: unifies THE void under the bearer's will

[vale kelp]

Void can refer to the part or the whole

[barren beacon]

I still don't get why Shade Lord appears like a fucking jumpscare in the final cutscene

[silk dirge]

anyways like i said team cherry being bad writers doesnt meant shit to me bc it means most literarymeritslop i read in ap english classes is bad writing

[terse warren]

They have to attack tendrils to get them to stop but also commands them to bring hornet and lace up

[twin dragon]

Void given focus and voidheart

[barren beacon]

I figured, yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Of course

[obsidian quail]

silksong definitely did a disservice to both hollow knight and itself

[rain gate]

showing the true form as opposed to the shades i guess
the shades are for hornet's sake

[ember river]

Well, when the knight willed for it not to attack hornet it stopped, be it because it was attacked or whatever, it's void attacking void, a visual manifestation, like tendrils themselves are described as

[rancid dagger]

this discussion wouldnt exist at all if they just made the tendrils stop but nooo TC needed the knight to aura farm 😭

[barren beacon]

So nice of The Knight to do that

[pliant meadow]

Bro to itself is crazy 😭

[obsidian quail]

hahahaha

[pseudo charm]

the knight after turning all the enemies black (TOTALLY HIM BTW!!! DEFINITELY) :

yes this will help my half sister.

(He then proceeded to nearly kill everyone)

[vale kelp]

What I mean is that the void doesn’t refer to the whole omfg I hate english grammar it makes this point so hard to get across

[sinful nimbus]

TK didn't need to attack tendrils in HK to get them to cooperate because that's stupid, they're the same being as the tendrils

[ember river]

The knight willed to be a showoff

[obsidian quail]

it did cheesed

[pliant meadow]

I'm not agreeing with you.

[obsidian quail]

it was a double hit

[terse warren]

retcons are fine if they lead to hype moments and aura

[obsidian quail]

i didn’t assume u were.

[rancid dagger]

i know what you are saying it's not about english grammar it's just contradictory no matter how you see it

[ember river]

Then why are you throwing a tantrum

[silk dirge]

if i say im going to unite THE people what does that mean

[vale kelp]

No??? You’re completely misunderstanding my point???

[terse warren]

do you know what sarcasm is

[dapper willow]

pretty sure that was sarcasm

[rancid dagger]

nah im seeing your point you are just wrong

[pseudo charm]

atleast two people

[ember river]

Hard to get it through a screen

[vale kelp]

Then you aren’t dumbass

[silk dirge]

it could mean uniting the whole world or uniting a specific group of people

[pseudo charm]

you can make a point and still be wrong :p

people have the right to understand AND disagree

[silk dirge]

thats my logic atleast

[rain gate]

oh boy another void argument

[vale kelp]

Then why am I wrong

[silk dirge]

i think silksongs story is goated and far more interesting and engaging then most shit ive read in school

[pseudo charm]

ask them not me LOL

[mighty jolt]

I mean if I say "a king unified the kingdom under his will" that doesn't mean he has the ability to move every part of the kingdom directly. I assume that's the case for voidheart. He issues orders, and they get followed, but if no orders are issued, it acts as it wishes.

[obsidian quail]

i think silksong disrespected the foundation of hollow knight and we have to just accept the changes that don’t have explanations in verse, so to me that’s a disservice because it lessens the weight of HK and SS

[whole holly]

hey are zylotols and zangos remains also swollen and blue when dead?

[dapper willow]

I guess the best thing to resolve this would be an interview with team cherry about the lore or something
It is what it is

[terse warren]

you were forced to read the school stuff you weren't forced to play silksong

[rancid dagger]

the knight had to attack the tendrils

[vale kelp]

This is kinda what I meant

[ember river]

I'd just argue the void is pretty esoteric as a concept and the tendrils being attacked is just how Hornet perceived it, while in truth it was the Knight's will stopping them and that's how it felt

[twin dragon]

May be a reason for that but eh

[pseudo charm]

I didnt get to zangos corpse but I did get to his boss :p

someone pull up his dead body please

[sinful nimbus]

When its said that A) The Knight controls a magical substance and B) The Knight is literally the same being as the magical substance after getting Void Heart, the base assumption is that it has total control over the substance

[rancid dagger]

if you can issue an order to the tendrils then you don't need to attack them to make them stop did you guys watch the cutscene with your eyes closed

[obsidian quail]

look at the gymnastics we need to do

[mighty jolt]

Yeah, and if a king shows up last minute on a battlefield, he will have to have his knights stand in front of his own army to break the fight up.

[silk dirge]

true but maybe i wouldve chosen to actually read shit if the teachers didnt attach awful assignments

[terse warren]

we literally hear and see the tendrils getting slashed

[obsidian quail]

now we can’t accept our eyes and ears

[pseudo charm]

The abyss is MASSIVE the knight could be on autopilot trying to nab stuff

[rancid dagger]

the tendrils are NOT sentient beings the knight controls they are literally supposed to act under the knight's will just a thought of theirs and they'd stop

[whole holly]

i want to compare it to joni

[sinful nimbus]

It's like taking the statement "I'm in control of my limbs" and going "Well actually its not ALL your limbs"

[vale kelp]

This is what I mena

[rancid dagger]

yes this would be the argument but it doesn't work because the knight has to attack the tendrils

[dapper willow]

Then thats just a mistake in the original game thne too, because he can't control the collector, the black egg or the Hollow Knight either
It could be argued for all three though so idk

[terse warren]

still doesn't explain having to attack tendrils

[ember river]

And we are playing as Hornet, not the knight. Tendrils themselves are just a manifestation of the drive to consume of the void

[vale kelp]

You keep misunderstanding and then using those misunderstandings to argue when I don’t actually believe that

[rancid dagger]

and that's why you are wrong because the knight attacks the tendrils

[pseudo charm]

fair enough, but I'll take it as fighting instinct :p

[mighty jolt]

Disagree. I think the tendrils are sentient beings. The first game talks about how the sea of abyss calls to the lighthouse keeper to turn off the lights, so it at least has some form of personal expression.

[ember river]

"The void that will claim all things... In the barbed forms it chooses its nature can be seen clear."

[terse warren]

the black egg isn't made of void? and THK and Collector aren't pure void

[pseudo charm]

thats the ABYSS itself not the tendrils

[wind oracle]

What foundation was disrespected?

[silk dirge]

how is the black egg not made of void what

[terse warren]

yeah but they're also like physically tendrils

[vale kelp]

Oh my FUCKING god the void isn’t one entity

[rancid dagger]

that's the abyss as a hive mind

[sinful nimbus]

The so called books of literary merit are often more aware of social inequality than Silksong is

[dapper willow]

does it not diseaper in one of the endings??
There is alot of void there that disapears somewhere

[terse warren]

it's a temple

[obsidian quail]

what

[ember river]

And besides, the knight slashing tendrils is still making the void obey its will, it wills them to stop so it stops them, the form doesn't matter

[twin dragon]

Also the tendrils the knight uses are different from whatever the void itself cooks up

[vale kelp]

Like it isn’t one mind

[silk dirge]

the black egg is pretty explicitly void in the ending

[terse warren]

we're just inside it

[pseudo charm]

hornet is void she makes the screen go black on death /s

[ember river]

No more tendrils attack Hornet after that

So the Knight still has direct control afterwards

I feel like people losing their mind over this point is pretty stupid

[rancid dagger]

if you are going to slap someone on instinct you dont need to grab your hand to stop yourself lol

[mighty jolt]

A lot of people assume it's a hive mind, but there's really very little evidence of that. In fact, there's a lot more evidence that it's countless non-unified minds fighting constantly.

[vale kelp]

Here’s evidence the void isn’t one entity: when one sibling sees you, all the siblings don’t immeadiately start coming towards you

[pseudo charm]

I cut it off obviously

[mighty jolt]

To be fair siblings are separate entities.

[rancid dagger]

even if you would argue that it still becomes a hive mind after the void heart is obtained

[vale kelp]

Exactly

[terse warren]

how come it didn't have control before attacking them

[obsidian quail]

it retconned lore and facts about the world instead of adding onto it

[ember river]

I'd say the knight wasn't really paying attention of what was going on until it saw Hornet, and then it stopped it as it saw fit, the void is huge anyways

[obsidian quail]

now it feels cheaper

[vale kelp]

But they’re still definitely VOID entities

[mighty jolt]

I disagree. It becomes a ruled domain.

[ember river]

It was elsewhere, higher beings aren't omniscient

[pseudo charm]

they are separate entities made of void, but the void is its own thing. It can just be used as a (REALLY RISKY CAN YOU STOP USING IT??) material at the same time :p

[terse warren]

seems to me like it just gets destroyed

[wind oracle]

Like what? I didn’t know it recommend anything

[rancid dagger]

i've seen this argument a million times and it STILL doesn't work with the knight attacking the tendrils

[twin dragon]

And the knight doesn't seem to be purely void, even when its a shade

[terse warren]

that doesn't explain why it has to attack the tendrils

[rancid dagger]

if you want to stop the tendrils, which you have control over, you just stop them

[twin dragon]

SInce there's a big difference from the knight and the void tendrils

[ember river]

It wants to attack them because it's a god and can do whatever I guess

[obsidian quail]

i’m actually fine with Void going autopilot outside of TK’s awareness but attacking itself was egregious

[ember river]

It just needs to stop them before they hit Hornet

[rancid dagger]

yeah that makes no logical sense

[obsidian quail]

and no excuse for that blasphemy

[mighty jolt]

"If you want to stop the truck you are driving, which you have control over, you just stop it".

[pseudo charm]

yeah it also has the geo

[rancid dagger]

you cant just say "the knight just wanted to do that" lol

[ember river]

Why not

[vale kelp]

The tendrils in pharloom are caused by GMS, no?

[dapper willow]

even with the voidheart the knight doesn't seem to have control over void entities

[silk dirge]

ok wait tho what happens if theres multiple void hearts in the world

[twin dragon]

I mean post ending shape yknow

[silk dirge]

how the fuck does that work

[rancid dagger]

yeah sure bro

[terse warren]

if you want to stop the punch you are throwing, you have to cut off your arm

[barren beacon]

Shade Lord/The Knight saves Both Hornet and Lace, right? Or did lace have to swim her way up?

[silk dirge]

i want an explanation on how the void would be unified if multiple beings had void hearts

[pseudo charm]

thats ALL the geos doing gang

[twin dragon]

both

[obsidian quail]

all they had to do was make the void tendrils stop or disintegrate and it’d be fine but they forgot how voidheart works

[ember river]

Actually if I say it's a retcon will you all fuck off and talk actual lore instead of sperging over meaningless shit?

[mighty jolt]

If you want to stop the punch you are throwing last minute, you probably do need someone else to step in and block it.

[rain gate]

also side point but its THK that rescues hornet, not TK

[terse warren]

that'd be top 10 worst writing decisions ever

[twin dragon]

it's not fym wrong answer

[rancid dagger]

you probably can't have multiple voidhearts

[sinful nimbus]

"someone else" but its your limb

[terse warren]

retcons are lore

[twin dragon]

Brother it's NOT

[ember river]

It being a retcon or not doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things

[obsidian quail]

maybe step away from screen gassy

[ember river]

Same as Herrah being a weaver

[rain gate]

look at the horns

[obsidian quail]

take a lil break u know

[ember river]

Fuck off with that name

[sinful nimbus]

Why are you suckerpunching someone in the first place does TK hate Hornet or something

[twin dragon]

Have you fucking done dream no more

[silk dirge]

how do you know that

[rancid dagger]

"meaningless shit" and it's probably the most significant piece of lore in the game

[mighty jolt]

Except my stance is that it isn't. The void is unified under a single will, but that doesn't mean that it is one being.

[ember river]

Speak like a normal person

[sinful nimbus]

"Such union in a SINGLE being"

So its a retcon

[pseudo charm]

it was made by using the charm used as a metaphor for 2 pale beings boning, and then remembering what got you cast down into the abyss, i dont think more than one will exist lol

[obsidian quail]

my apologies gassy

[wind oracle]

I still don’t understand what was retconned

[vale kelp]

Wait a second, you’re 100% wrong and it’s not THK but you do have a point

[silk dirge]

i mean whos saying that cant happen again

[vale kelp]

The horns look older

[twin dragon]

No they don't

[silk dirge]

hallownest doesnt seem extremely unique now

[pseudo charm]

it happened bc of a VERY unique situation

[twin dragon]

They're probably more malleable due to the knight being basically a shade now

[sinful nimbus]

The void is now not entirely unified & The Knight needs to physically attack void tendrils to get them to obey

[twin dragon]

Not because anything else

[rancid dagger]

it's literally the knight's aspect in dream no more gang did we play hollow knight

[edgy barn]

The knight's shade starts looking like that in HK

[mighty jolt]

I think that was probably always the case; it's just the Pale King wanted it to feel special so people would worship him.

[ember river]

I wouldn't say it's anywhere near. Tendrils still stop after the slashes, why wouldn't they keep coming constantly if the knight had no control?

[terse warren]

Snail Shamans, Lifeblood, Void Heart, Herrah being a Weaver, Three Queens kinda

[vale kelp]

Ah fair enough

[zinc pivot]

Is void heart retconned?

[pseudo charm]

its like gathering up your kids but you're a really shitty parent who cuts their legs off if they disobey, thats how the knight gathers control :p

[ember river]

How was the daughter of three queens and lifeblood retconned

[twin dragon]

Herrah wasn't rectonned lmao

[rain gate]

three queens was never really canon in the first place but ehhhhhh

[ember river]

Herrah was never stated NOT to be a weaver either

[twin dragon]

The fact that she's skinnier doesn't change shit

[rancid dagger]

that's why we are saying silksong contradicts both itself and hollow knight, why would they need to be slashed in the first place if the knight had control

[sinful nimbus]

Higher Beings generally don't get along, heck there usually aren't multiple in any given region

[silk dirge]

three queens was always meant to be in hollow knight it was 100% going to be in hornet dlc

[terse warren]

different appearence also wow such a weaver like body

[wind oracle]

I figured the void under Pharloom was different? Like if HK was a King of all of the Void, the Void under Pharloom was like a distant city far from the Kingdom that needed to be brought in line

[rancid dagger]

brother she's not skinnier she is missing most of her body and has a different shape to make her fit with the weaver bodies we see

[silk dirge]

there is literally no question it would be it just wouldnt make any sense if it wasnt

[obsidian quail]

herrah was definitely retconned

[ember river]

That's probably just rule of cool

[rain gate]

was going to be

[sinful nimbus]

That seems to be what it is yeah

[silk dirge]

cut bc of budget and time constraints

[terse warren]

we already talked lifeblood and the hive didn't want anything to do with Hallownest

[vale kelp]

Isn’t it said in game that GMS’s struggling is causing the collapse of pharloom?

[rancid dagger]

if you write yourself into contradictions because "it's cool" while it makes no sense ima say you are a dogshit writer, which i dont want to think TC are

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't make it not a retcon let alone good writing

[obsidian quail]

void is void that’s so dumb

[zinc pivot]

With silksong release its more allocated

[rain gate]

specifically the quakes yes

[scenic stirrup]

What attacks does hornet say shaw

[pseudo charm]

The will of the knight could be to take everything, similar to a wyrms will for domination (STATED BY HORNET), and the abyss's will to take everything :p

the knight had to fight its own will to save hornet trust

[twin dragon]

The fuck, she still keeps her small head and big ass horns

[zinc pivot]

Silksong was meant to be the hornet dlc after all

[rancid dagger]

it would've still been cool if the tendrils just stopped and then we saw the knight, the exact same scene

[silk dirge]

3 queens is a hollow knight plot hole

[ember river]

Wait so then what are you even trying to argue, you call them shit writers because they add supposed retcons, and then you say that they aren't shit writers?

[sinful nimbus]

MFW the weaver who fights like a weaver and uses a weaver weapon was actually trained by an entirely unrelated tribe on the other side of the map

[terse warren]

i rather TK be an aura farmer than the void being different when in different spots ngl

[rancid dagger]

which could just be said it's the dreamer mask

[mighty jolt]

Three queens was basically the canon plan from the beginning. Originally Hornet's room was going to be to the right of the White Palace, right between it and the hive, but it got cut from the final release.

[wind oracle]

Herrah being a weaver interrupts canon? And what’s wrong with the Three Queens?

[silk dirge]

hornets name literally came from vespa

this was confirmed by team cherry

[scenic stirrup]

Also what attack does she say edino i swear i havent heard it in the game but i found some guy posted the silk song voice lines of hornet

[twin dragon]

Lmao not really? it clearly looks like part of her body

[zinc pivot]

Needle is a variant of a hallownest nail wdym

[pseudo charm]

three queens was an idea TC had for hornet but didn't confirm in HK, even if it is canon now

[rancid dagger]

i never said they were shit writers because of retcons, herrah being a weaver is a good retcon, i dont particularly dislike snail shamans i just wish they didnt fumble voidheart

[zinc pivot]

Weavers are claw users

[sinful nimbus]

In HK this wasn't a diegetic connection

[mighty jolt]

Herrah being a weaver technically doesn't break canon. It just completely calls into question WTF a weaver can look like.

[terse warren]

it doesn't interrupt canon, but it's something that wasn't the case in HK1 and now is in Silksong

[rancid dagger]

im arguing against the people who say voidheart worked that way in hk lmao

[twin dragon]

Plus what about the big ass head

[pseudo charm]

herrah was a fatass weaver

[vale kelp]

What???? Herrah was always a weaver???

[twin dragon]

Dumbest argument oat

[vale kelp]

When were they not a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah far more resembled regular spiders until she was redesigned in Silksong

[ember river]

Oh wow, must've attributed you some point from auber or pengu I guess

[pseudo charm]

why did GMS evolve pharlids specifically though wtf are they good for

[obsidian quail]

come on

[silk dirge]

i mean team cherry said it was the basis for the name i dont know really if any other thing is described

[wind oracle]

Just because all of the ocean has water doesn’t mean it’s all the same

[obsidian quail]

she thought they looked cool

[twin dragon]

We literally see a weaver, one that is pretty much identical to the ones we see in silksong, in deepnest

[mighty jolt]

With a completely different type of torso, different leg arrangement, and completely different head shape.

[vale kelp]

I always thought they were a weaver I’m confused

[zinc pivot]

Herrah wasn’t stated to be one
But she clearly doesn’t resemble one

[pseudo charm]

EXACTLY

[silk dirge]

like its pretty clear to me team cherry was always thinking of 3 queens

[sinful nimbus]

They said it was the basis of the name because of a concept in development that may or MAY NOT be true

[pseudo charm]

all because she ate too much

[twin dragon]

Head shape remains the same

[ember river]

And now it was proven to be true

[sinful nimbus]

But it wasn't true in HK

[terse warren]

such a similar head shape

[silk dirge]

yeah but then is there any other explanation to hornets name

[wind oracle]

So they’re adding into lore and making hornet’s backstory cool stuff that doesn’t change the original plot? Why are people being pissy over this

[ember river]

That's why we got a second game?

[rancid dagger]

he's talking about other weavers not herrah between games

[vale kelp]

Yeah they have the weaver head

[sinful nimbus]

Her weapon is described as a flying stinger

[obsidian quail]

void is uniform nothingness it has no differing quality that sets it apart from itself

[pseudo charm]

widow looks nothing like herrah :p we dont know if herrah is an unmasked weaver but ehh

[ember river]

It wasn't confirmed, now it is

[vale kelp]

I think herrah’s just really fat

[terse warren]

what's the explanation for Salubra's name

[zinc pivot]

Tbh the argument regarding herrahs herrah-tage can only be answered by TC

[mighty jolt]

WTF are you talking about? Her head is a friggen croissant and all the other weaver's were balls. Even Widow doesn't have a boomerang head.

[sinful nimbus]

We got a second game to retroactively change details in the lore?

[ember river]

Herrah could've changed her birthmask for the dreamer one

[twin dragon]

Does the new herrah look any similar?

[terse warren]

it does change info from the original tho

[silk dirge]

thats kinda irrelevant tho hornets name is pretty relevant to this

[zinc pivot]

So arguing about the retcon is a waste of time

[ember river]

It wasn't untrue in HK either

[twin dragon]

I mean between the new and old herrah

[silk dirge]

where

[pseudo charm]

yeah fair

[rancid dagger]

same body same leg distribution just not the head, which is probably the dreamer's mask

[terse warren]

it's literally just a name

[dapper willow]

YES
I think them explaining their reasoning behind their decisons would quell this debate a little bit

[ember river]

The Hive was secluded and didn't want anything to do with Hallownest, neither did the spiders

[obsidian quail]

herrah was not a weaver in HK it was a retcon we need to accept reality

[vale kelp]

Thanks, google AI.

[obsidian quail]

let’s talk about ancient civilization

[sinful nimbus]

It was because an isolationist tribe training the daughter of a completely unaffiliated tribe who does not match their fighting style whatsoever was absurd

[pseudo charm]

I think the way that blanket thing is on her head looks stupid icl, did she like push it down to hug the horns???

[terse warren]

we're talking about herrah in hk 1 not in silksong

[rancid dagger]

and it's a GOOD retcon too people just hear the word retcon and think we hate team cherry bro 😭

[vale kelp]

At the end they just make up shit like what

[zinc pivot]

Ancient Civilization more weavers who took a lava dip

[silk dirge]

isolationism isnt binary and vespa clearly knew about vessels and was involved

[wind oracle]

Obviously Void can be corrupted/changed in some parts but not others- GMM fucked the pool under Pharloom and obviously that wasn’t in line with what HK wanted/commanded

[obsidian quail]

more specific, were the Ancient Civilization bugs void like the vessels? i think so

[silk dirge]

the fighting style shit we went over yesterday

weavers are never seen fighting in melee

[pseudo charm]

no AI

[silk dirge]

with a needle

[rancid dagger]

it seems like they worshipped void, but they werent made of void

[sinful nimbus]

So does Mask Maker

[vale kelp]

Exactly

[zinc pivot]

No, youve seen the big bug in hallownest abyss

That shit is no void its a raw bug

[twin dragon]

Doubt why she would have big ass horns, same as hornet btw

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe Mask Maker trained Hornet that would make even more sense since he's actually a Deepnest resident

[obsidian quail]

they could have voided themselves out like the vessels

[silk dirge]

i mean mask maker seems pretty involved with the kingdom

[ember river]

The Hive was still in contact with the rest of the kingdom, they didn't really want to be part of Hallownest but still knew what was going on

[twin dragon]

Lurien has nothing neither does monomon

[sinful nimbus]

No he doesn't

[random harbor]

Vespa - Hive - First Encounter

My Knight... At last you are freed.
Small thing. I know your kind.
If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek.
It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature.
Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation.

@cheese_vviz used /npcs spirits name: Vespa category: Hive dialogue: First Encounter

[obsidian quail]

it just latched on to silk which isn’t void

[twin dragon]

Neither look alike to a weaver in the first place

[terse warren]

"Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation."

[zinc pivot]

This might be a case, the tablets in pharlooms abyss suggest this

[mighty jolt]

We technically see both widow and first sinner to melee attacks with quick slashes.

[vale kelp]

Can someone give me the actual contradiction between hollow knight and silksong clearly?

[terse warren]

yes that is what im arguing for

[obsidian quail]

that’s what i’m saying right

[silk dirge]

i mean training hornet is different from actively helping with the vessels

[obsidian quail]

and they reference shades in the arcane eggs

[terse warren]

hornet was a direct result of wanting the continuation of hallownest

[pale narwhal]

the yea no the weavers in deepnest just chose to obey a queen that wasn't theirs for no real reason. and then that queen and her devouts have the exact same eyes as the weavers as coincidence I'm sure

[obsidian quail]

i think they voided themselves out as a religious ritual

[silk dirge]

yeah but how is training her helping with the continuation

[twin dragon]

Hornet was half weaver half wyrm in the first game, despite herrah apparently not being a weaver in the first game

[dapper willow]

none of the weavers use weapons in the firs game
But hornet does use her needle
I think thats a significant difference

[silk dirge]

hornet was a result of the plan but not really a part of it

[ember river]

She was still her own party, she could've earned the favor of Vespa herself

[sinful nimbus]

3Q was technically possible but it doesn't need to be impossible to be a retcon it just needs to be implausible and not hinted at whatsoever

[terse warren]

she wasn't half weaverm she was trained by weavers

[rancid dagger]

we dont see any weavers fight at all in the first game unless you are talking little weavers which might as well not exist in canon or be artificial

[obsidian quail]

they respected deepnest cuz they’re immigrants and had their own place in it

[sinful nimbus]

All the yap about Hornet being half weaver is from Silksong not HK

[silk dirge]

i think we need to remember the hive was supposed to be part of deepnest originally

[zinc pivot]

You gotta accept the fact that shes now half weaver

[pseudo charm]

maybe the weavers tried really really hard to make babies

[terse warren]

no one is denying that????

it doesn't remove the fact that she originally wasn't

[dapper willow]

I actually did think about the little weavers
But deepnest in general doesn't seem to use any unnatural weapons so the daughter of 3 queens could explain why hornet has that training

[sinful nimbus]

So what does Silksong take place in a HK AU where the hive is in deepnest

[mighty jolt]

And even after the change it was placed directly next to the White Palace, and originally hornet's room was going to be right between the two.

[twin dragon]

She could generate silk though

[ember river]

Okay, what does that matter to the lore of the original HK or of Silksong?

[silk dirge]

also the bottom tramway is actually pretty good hinting at 3q if you think about it

[ember river]

Yeah, Herrah wasn't shown to be a weaver and now she is, shocking

[terse warren]

it is quite literally lore

[pliant meadow]

Well she was always the daughter of Herrah, Herrah just wasn't explicitly stated to be a weaver