sk-lore

[upper copper]

She does have a home and pharloom is much more alive. If the hollow knight is not alive, then it would be much better to stay in pharloom

[whole juniper]

Grimm collects the flame for the ritual, and nkg matures the baby Grimm to the final stage

[whole juniper]

That’s how I see it

[silk dirge]

the only living people in hallownest are probably dirtmouth, hive, mantis village, and npcs with the exception of quirrel

[sinful nimbus]

In respects to them being avatars yes

[whole holly]

she was weaver, she had time, most likely metaphor, unless she was messing with physics

[ember river]

I think the "Weaver of time" "Weaver of health", etc are representative titles, like Patron Saints

[upper copper]

Wait, if you complete the game, do the haunted bugs become alive?

[spare pendant]

none of those are even part of hallownest

[whole juniper]

They serve different purposes too

[spare pendant]

and hive is dead

[pale grove]

i always thought that the infected bugs were still alive

[spare pendant]

some were, most aren't

[sinful nimbus]

But they are both avatars and that was what I was saying

[edgy barn]

The hive is confirmed dead in silksong

[whole juniper]

That is true

[obsidian quail]

wasn’t the other Weaver called Weaver of health because she specialized in healing stuff

[hushed yoke]

cant help but wonder if the white lady was born in a way similar to whats created from grey root's weird rebirth ritual

[pale grove]

where do you get that from?

[ember river]

There are probably some survivors in the City of Tears but that's that

[obsidian quail]

wouldn’t that mean Atla does Weave time

[spare pendant]

the fact most bugs are referred to as husks

[foggy fractal]

if they were alive before sure ? if they are reanimated corpses though then GMS is dead so

[ember river]

Yeah, but she didn't literally weave the metaphysical concept of health

[silk dirge]

is the hive dead

[ember river]

100%

[silk dirge]

i always assumed the hive was just infected

[pale grove]

dying

[whole juniper]

overcome with infection so pretty much

[pale grove]

queen is dead

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah they dont have their queen

[obsidian quail]

of course but she still did Healing

[ember river]

Most infected are just zombies anyways

[edgy barn]

Hornet says so when talking to the pinmaster

[silk dirge]

but i assume that might mean theyre in a similar state to the skarr

[obsidian quail]

that’s to say they were given those titles for a reason

[whole juniper]

The queen isn’t dead in skarr tho

[silk dirge]

i mean shes very weak

[obsidian quail]

so i’m curious what Time shit Atla was getting up to

[upper copper]

Btw tc confirmed that Myla COULD be alive after you delete radiance. Maybe the hive could thrive

[whole juniper]

holdup what

[silk dirge]

if hornet didnt come in karmelita probably wouldve died pretty soon afterwards

[spare pendant]

myla is recently infected, the hive is not

[whole holly]

i hope next game is centered around grimmchild

[silk dirge]

in game time

[whole juniper]

oh

[pale grove]

well hitting them with dreamnail allows you to read their memories. and radiance is god of light and dreams

[spare pendant]

you're reading their essence, which lingers even on corpses

[edgy barn]

Welly, done! What miracle to work again upon steel so fine. Few pins left in Pharloom could attain such a sheen!
You must tell me, traveller, wherever did you come upon so splendid a weapon?
Hornet: The blade was a gift, given by a noble tribe of my homeland. They forged the strongest steel, though it was rarely seen beyond their hive.
Hornet: That tribe has now long passed, and with them the secrets to their craft.
Ahhh. If they are gone, it's a rarer piece than would be guessed! But what grand luck for this humble pinmaster to have worked with such a weapon!

[whole holly]

in fact essence can linger independent of them, dream bosses exist to confirm that

[whole juniper]

oh so it’s dead after the events of hk

[edgy barn]

Yeah

[whole juniper]

Sad

[pale grove]

its dying even during hk

[whole juniper]

It’s not dead during hk

[pale grove]

especially after you kill the boss

[silk dirge]

i think its safe to assume after the infection takes over someone when the infection is gone they die

[spare pendant]

it's dead, just animated by infection

[whole juniper]

The Hollow Knight:

[spare pendant]

not always, they can survive if they were more recently infected

[silk dirge]

thk is a weird case

[pale grove]

wasnt there one ending where after beating the radiance the hollow knight walks out alive

[edgy barn]

Void infused demi-god

[silk dirge]

bc thk is a void being

[whole juniper]

They’re still performing their duties

[pale grove]

and they're the first one infected. years ago

[warm tiger]

some infected fellas are by choice though so maybe not

[spare pendant]

infection makes bugs act within their base instincts

[silk dirge]

i mean bretta and sly werent really infected

we dont see anyone else like them

[spare pendant]

they were tho

just early on

[silk dirge]

they were in very early stages

[whole juniper]

And that means they can still perform as a basic hive, they just can’t do stuff like make hive steel or train hive knights

[silk dirge]

but one you are fully infected i think your just cooked

[spare pendant]

a corpse is not alive even if it breathes

[silk dirge]

also why is the choral chambers dead when we arrive to it

im curious about that

[whole juniper]

They are doing a bit more than breathing. Their bodies belong to the radiance now but that does mean it’s alive from the infection

[foggy fractal]

my bad

[silk dirge]

bc theres no mass die off in the lore

[spare pendant]

it's just a bunch of zombies, calling them alive is a stretch

[silk dirge]

from my understanding citadel people just got silk infused in whiteward and then got haunted like that

[upper copper]

Poor hornet… she is basically a homeless orphan 🙁 atleast she has white lady as her mother figure

[spare pendant]

most citadel bugs are dead but i dont think it's ever stated why

[whole juniper]

Possibly killing each other for silk for longevity

[flint wadi]

we can only assume its the haunting

[pale grove]

when myla was starting to get infected we can read that the radiance is poisoning her mind forcing her to attack us

[whole juniper]

She wasn’t strong enough to fend it off

[pale grove]

yeah but that shows that radiance corrupts living bugs

[whole juniper]

Yeah

[flint wadi]

citadel would be ground zero for its effects and it likely has detrimental effects on a bugs health

[whole juniper]

It can corrupt dead or alive or maybe in between

[pale grove]

with dreams of what they want

[warm tiger]

i don’t think there’s an instance of infection of a dead bug is there?

[edgy barn]

There is

[whole juniper]

By in between I mean someone like lost kin, the infection still remains

[pale grove]

the husks in the graveyard

[edgy barn]

The ones in the crypt beneath the resting grounds

Entombed husks

[warm tiger]

ahhh true

[pale grove]

but the rest i think are called husks cus they are husk of their former selves

not outright corpses

[whole juniper]

Husk can also mean shell I think

[spare pendant]

what

[whole juniper]

Well

[spare pendant]

empty shell yes

[pale grove]

anyways

when will we get to play in a kingdom which isnt straight up dying or dead

[whole juniper]

I don’t think that exists- they’re either blowing up or going down or in stasis or dead

[flint wadi]

im getting a feeling pharloom was going to be that kingdom at one point in development

[warm tiger]

i thought silksong would a little less post apocalyptic

[whole juniper]

If not for gms it would be incredibly successful- but actually maybe not cause silk was very important in the infrastructure

[pale grove]

imma settle for next game just being two kingdoms in a war

or smth

[whole juniper]

Is pharloom in stasis or going down

[edgy barn]

The hunter's journal describes most husks as animated remains

[whole juniper]

In act 3 it’s definitely going down but before then

[flint wadi]

yk its just so sad for a game so grand and so FUN and awesome on pretty much every front to do these misteps

did pharloom really had to be a retreading

we couldve had something new

[whole juniper]

It would have been real cool to see a bustling kingdom and then watch it all fall down on act 3

[pale grove]

all cus of us

[whole juniper]

Then we proceed to kill the reason why the kingdom was so successful

[ember river]

I'm not sure if there's any recorded instance of a long dead corpse coming back to life, but the Infection eventually killed their hosts and turned them into zombie husks

[pale grove]

wait is grand mother silk a diety like radiance is?

[whole juniper]

A pale being

[warm tiger]

they are a higher being

[flint wadi]

yes..? its made very obvious

[ember river]

Yes, she's a pale being

[edgy barn]

Entombed husks are infected mumified corpses

[whole juniper]

Imagine how successful pharloom would be if gms had the mind of the pk

[ember river]

Oh true

[flint wadi]

broken vessel

[ember river]

Probably the same since Weavers would still have been a bunch of assholes

[flint wadi]

^ pharloom would not be any less dystopian lol

[ember river]

Broken Vessel wasn't itself infected, it was a vessel corpse taken over by cells

[flint wadi]

is that not what infection of a dead bug is

[whole juniper]

with the mind of the pale king and the power of gms im sure she could have done something… maybe simply fucking off into the dream realm until the weavers fuck off or using void to its advantage

[ember river]

The infection spreads through dreams, it's not really cells

[whole juniper]

It still manifests in reality and is alive

[ember river]

Yeah, but infecting a dead bug still probably happens through essence

[flint wadi]

the point of citadel is that its a bug made kingdom, founded by weavers

gms had no hand in it, she was an object of worship and a source of silk for them

[whole juniper]

She made the weavers…

[flint wadi]

yeah and

[whole juniper]

And a source of silk is extremely important

pharlooms military and infrastructure relied on the silk

[flint wadi]

point is that grandma didnt direct it

[ember river]

GMS still didn't found Pharloom as we know it, I'd say that even if she had the mind of the Pale King, without foresight to know the upcoming revolt she would be doomed either way

[flint wadi]

she wasnt a formal monarch the game treats her as

[whole juniper]

It just wouldn’t have happened without her. If she had the mind of pk id think she’d play more of a part in the kingdom she is the god of

[whole juniper]

Since he… yk… played a part in hallownest

[flint wadi]

the citadel was concieved as a way to keep her asleep, its not something that couldve happened in any other scenario

[whole juniper]

there was still a kingdom wasn’t there

[flint wadi]

there were kingdoms* lands of pharloom natives

[edgy barn]

The narrative really tries to sell the idea that despite being sleep for most of history and not really doing much, GMS was still the true ruler and the one in power the entire time. I personally don't think it really works.

[whole juniper]

and why would pilgrims see the citadel as enlightenment

[flint wadi]

yeah the citadel and grandma feel like two different worlds thats kinda my issue with the story

[whole juniper]

If it was made to seal grandma why did pilgrims think it would like transcend them or smth

[flint wadi]

and it focuses on grandma which results in a retreading of concepts we already seen in hk

even tho the citadel and its soceity are 100 times more interesting

[sour hawk]

I have what's definitely going to be considered a bad theory, it goes against several seemingly very direct lines of dialogue and requires throwing out a very reasonable an obvious conclusion the entire community has come to since the original Hollow Knight, despite everything it has some amount of evidence and it makes a lot of thematic sense, the concept of the theory is very direct and anybody can be ready to tap out of any ensuing conversation now if they feel like this is going to be very stupid:

Herrah is not a Weaver and did not give birth to Hornet

I'm assembling all of my points right now and it's quite compelling I think, it'll take a minute to post because there's a lot going toward it.

Point 1: The design. Nothing in Hollow Knight or Silksong says that Herrah is a Weaver. In fact, Herrah is referred to as a common bug and shares more of a similarity to the Hunter when it comes to the number of limbs and design and such. There are essentially no design elements that connect Herrah to the Weavers besides the mask and its eyes, and the mask itself isn't a Weaver mask. If Herrah was Hornet’s biological mother she would entirely be Weaver; the Choral Commandment in Silksong reveals that Hornet is exactly half Weaver.

Point 2: The deal. Okay so Herrah made a deal with the Pale King to create an heir for Hallownest’s Weaver tribe, in Hollow Knight it's implied that the reason why is because Herrah’s partner died and she needs an heir, who she can no longer produce with said partner because… well, because he's dead. Okay so the obvious conclusion is that the deal was that the Pale King would fulfill that exact role, except listen to how Hornet describes the deal. “We do not choose our mothers, or the circumstance into which we are born. Despite all the ills of this world, I'm thankful for the life she granted me.” The obvious conclusion you come to in Hollow Knight is that it's because she was put in her dreamer state right after she was born, except…

Point 3: Red Memory. In probably the most important sequences in the entirety of Silksong, we see Hornet grow up with the Weavers, many of them dying or leaving, with her making her cloak. Only after that sequence is she with Herrah, who is still going years after Hornet is born. She asks her if she'll remember her as a mother or as the mask. Following this we also see her years of training with Queen Vespa and finally her mission given by the White Lady. It's clear that of the three, the one that's actually referred to as her mother is Herrah. But obviously the concept of motherhood isn't reserved for those who give birth. If the person who gave birth to her had no presence in her life it makes sense that someone else would be her mother to her.

Point 4: Weaver’s curse. Y'all knew it was coming. For the 5 people who don't know, there’s a rare interaction with Eva, the conditions of which are weird and are such that people actually disagree on what exactly they are. Here it is for those who haven't seen it:

Eva:

Lady, you mistake. What seems a cage is as much my shell as the form inside. I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come. I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.

Hornet:

I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits. Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?

Eva:

A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers but my senses are my own. Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.

It's a cool interaction, one that definitely ties into the existing themes of pregnancy, birth, and motherhood that exists on a level in Hollow Knight but is extremely prevalent in Silksong, but not one that feels like it should be hidden like this. What it directly implies about Hornet we can see elsewhere (she's hundreds of years old and has been with many), it helps explain Lace on a level and why the Weavers exist, but again, if that's what this is for then that shouldn't be hidden like this. It doesn't feel right, it feels like there's an implication hidden here.

Point 5: The circumstance. Hornet seems to hold some disdain toward the deal, and it's not that Herrah left her, it's specifically the circumstance of her birth. What if the deal with the Pale King is that he is to produce an heir with one from the Weaver tribe? Well, what would be the point of that? Why this extra wrinkle, what am I getting at? I think Hornet's “real mother” isn't any of her three mothers, but rather a sacrifice, a deal that's referenced with an undertone of regret because the Weaver died giving birth to the child of the Pale King.

Point 6: Pregnancy, birth, and abortion. I’m sorry but I’m very sure that whether this theory is correct or not there is commentary on this in Silksong. There's a quest in Silksong that curses you, Hornet is forcefully impregnated with a fetus and it weakens her, it's a parasite that she has to go get rid of by going to find a scorned surgeon shunned out of the uber religious main society. The procedure is intense and has a weird fucked up cutscene that sticks with a lot of people. It's not that weird for this game to have this commentary and this quest, this whole concept is very in line with the game as a whole, and similar ideas (like the chestburster in the Alien franchise) are also meant to call these concepts to mind and comment on them. Pregnancy is hard, birth is hard, it doesn't always go well and it's painful, fucked up. It's not always “natural”, some people are too weak either mentally or physically to deal with it. Hornet cannot give birth, it will kill her, she has to get rid of the child. Please don't be weird about this, this isn't meant to be a political discussion, it's meant to be a thematic discussion.

[ember river]

I interpreted it as her being the ultimate influence, an overwhelming power that could not be controlled or swayed, and was being foolishly used by the bugs of Pharloom. Everything that happens is in one way or another tied to her and, according to one of the shamans, the system to keep her asleep

[sour hawk]

Point 8: Hornet’s real mother. The idea of sacrificing your life, your wellbeing for the sake of your group, your clan, sums up a lot of the conflicts in Hollow Knight. If this unknown Weaver did die during childbirth and if it is something that's not discussed directly, it would tie these themes together and explain why the hell Team Cherry had the whole Cursed Child plot and ending in the game in the first place. It would also explain why the Eva dialogue is so hidden, Hornet's “real mother” overcame this curse by reproducing with the Pale King, but she didn't make it.

Anyway that's the theory, feel free to yell at me because it's sure to have issues, but I think there's a chance it was the intended interpretation. Sorry for the abortion part, it's the most uncomfortable part but I truly believe it's relevant.

[ember river]

Point 1: Herrah is referred to as a common bug because Weavers probably don't have any longstanding noble lineages unlike a tribe such as the Deepnest spiders could have. Herrah's partner/husband is referred to as a Sire of noble caste, which Weavers may as well not have had as a culture
Additionally, Hornet would be 50% weaver since her father, the Pale King, is clearly not a Weaver, so assuming she inherits 50% of the genes from her mother, and 50% from her father she'd be 50% Weaver

I'm not reading any further since otherwise I'd want to drink myself to sleep

[glossy grove]

||what void is hornet's family linked to, as the white lady says in act 3||

[sour hawk]

oh yeah that just sets up the theory, but nothing about Hereah's design says she's a Weaver, she's referred to separately, "the beast", and again she has a different number of limbs, her build is different, we see dozens of other Weavers and even one without the mask on and none of them look like Herrah at all

[ember river]

The Abyss, and the sacrifices made there for the entire Vessel project
Also, that "our" isn't really Hornet's family as it is the White Lady's and Pale King's. Technically it includes Hornet, but I don't think the WL wanted to make her a participant

[glossy grove]

i see. thanks

[obsidian quail]

how are Weavers assholes

[ember river]

Widow, even while having no mask, is still wearing a cloth to conceal her face. Herrah is also wearing a Dreamer mask, so it may have required removal of her own original one

[ember river]

They thought themselves as gods so they trapped their actual creator god and ruled absolutely as deities. The entire system of Pharloom and many of its problems can be traced back to them

[obsidian quail]

hmmm

it seems their main problem was eternal servitude

which i’m sure i wouldn’t like

[wide bridge]

ok so styx seems to be some weird bug that wears different masks to pretend to be other bugs
i played the needolin in the hidden mask room above styx's nest and it seems Styx isn't actually the same species as huntress and instead dons different masks to pretend to be others...
He says "the one who breeds, the one to fear, the one who serves", I assume "The one who serves" is reffering to the persona we meet aka styx.
I still think Skynx is the same type of creature as nosk and Styx isn't, cause nosk doesnt really wear masks it has some sort of mind reading that lets it become loved ones.

[obsidian quail]

i think a big part of GMS character is she makes children and doesn’t consider their feelings about how they wish to exist cuz she’s incapable

flawed in that regard

whether it be weavers or phantom/lace

[ember river]

Depends on how you interpret that line from Mask Maker, but one could argue that the oppression they suffered, they also enacted tenfold

[obsidian quail]

i think GMS wasn’t a very good mother, she was dominating and controlling and weavers felt like slaves after awhile but that’s all she knows how to be

[obsidian quail]

i mean look at all the Weaver lore and its clear their main concern is freedom

they’re very desperate to escape their situation

[ember river]

I assumed skynx was just Styx with a different mask, not really a Nox situation. Loam seems much more like Nox physically I'd say

[wide bridge]

we see styx's corpse lying under his nest in steel soul so they cant be the same

[ember river]

Oh, haven't really played steel soul so I'm not 100% knowledgeable about its lore

[vivid kernel]

This is a Hollow knight?

[wide bridge]

i think loam and nosk are a coincidental similarity, nosk's whole thing is shapeshifting while loam is just a big spider like bug

[obsidian quail]

Weavers being asshole is GMS propaganda

[ember river]

Yes, that's the hollow knight

[ember river]

They did rule like gods though

[obsidian quail]

some of them, and some also left

[ember river]

And set a whole theocratic system of oppression

[vivid kernel]

What happened after the ending with the pantheon? Hornet killed Hollow Knight or what

[ember river]

Didn't the ones who leave leave after they lost the Citadel?

[obsidian quail]

the main concern from everything we see of Weavers is trying to escape their former existence of servitude

[ember river]

Unknown

[vivid kernel]

erm

Mwi wa wa hwaguiwa

[ember river]

So they condemn thousands, maybe millions to the same fate they tried to escape? That screams asshole to me

[obsidian quail]

they didn’t start the silk epidemic

[ember river]

The system they put in place to keep GMS asleep destroyed actual kingdoms

[obsidian quail]

those kingdoms were already fucked from when GMS was awake

[ember river]

Their management of the Citadel directly led to the Underworks and their miserable condition

[ember river]

Verdania wasn't, the Skarrs weren't

[fair tusk]

idk if this is the rigth channel for this but i was just thinking abt dream bosses and remembered that elder looks oddly similar to shakra's mentor

[obsidian quail]

we have no idea what Weavers did vs what the Citadel bugs did, it seems like all of that silk addiction and capitalist stuff was done by the Citadel bugs

[fair tusk]

pearl / rosary necklaces, things around hand, orange clothing idk its just similar

[ember river]

The Skarrs I can accept that it was GMS, but Verdania was directly the consequence of Weavers handing down the Citadel

[obsidian quail]

what makes u say that

[ember river]

They were given control of the Citadel by Weavers without even caring about the consequences

[ember river]

Yeah, that's been discussed a bunch of times, and even though it's likely it's unconfirmed

[obsidian quail]

who gave them control, i thought they took control?

[ember river]

The weavers seem pretty happy to pass the mantle

[obsidian quail]

how if some died in the process

[flint wadi]

weavers founded the citadel and setup most of the practices that turned pharloom into a dystopia

[ember river]

?

[waxen forum]

Ximmy is spreading Pro-Weaver propaganda smh

[obsidian quail]

i think they’re happy to be free of the burden sure but i don’t think that means it all was a masterminded plan by them, the dialogue from Weavers make it seem more defeatist than anything

[ember river]

That harp was likely referencing the mummified weavers along the way, who are actually waiting for you

[obsidian quail]

i don’t think Weavers are good but i don’t think they’re petty assholes either

[ember river]

It was defeatist, they knew it was bound to fail so they fucked off

[spark valve]

no they didn't

[ember river]

They basically left the kingdom with a timebomb without telling

[spark valve]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full.** Never to cease. Never to silence.**
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

the weavers thought the conductors would keep things running forever

[ember river]

And they didn't silence or cease and GMS awoke anyways

[spark valve]

they did silence

[ember river]

Source

[obsidian quail]

i just think saying the Weavers main motivation is something petty like wanting to be gods is just not true

[spark valve]

One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.

[obsidian quail]

they’re not perfect but that definitely was not their motivation

[ember river]

Isn't that referencing the Haunting?

That's why Hornet "rouse its ire"

[spark valve]

they wanted freedom from gms they're just also assholes

[ember river]

They clearly believed themselves to be gods according to FS dialogue, and it's implied that they were the ones who both locked FS up and mutilated Widow

[spark valve]

Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth.

[ember river]

Who says that

[spark valve]

Now only silence...

[spark valve]

ballador

[ember river]

Well, yeah, now everything is Haunted

[grand star]

hornet limps at the start of act 1 and 3 because of void exposure right?

[ember river]

That's the consequence of GMS's awakening

[spark valve]

this ain't that complicated the citadel's song suppresses gms and the weavers say they think it will forever persist

[ember river]

I don't think there's any mention that the Citadel bugs willingly stopped

[spark valve]

it doesn't matter that they didn't do it willingly

[ember river]

So they were not only self righteous, they were also wrong

[spark valve]

yes they were wrong
that's not the point

[obsidian quail]

that dialogue to me more seemed like they thought they were born as blessed divine children and not some bugs that were just ascended only to serve GMS, which does suck

i think ur leaving out the context of how they view GMS

and their dynamic

we keep getting smacked with the fact that their main goal is freedom from life under GMS

[spark valve]

no it's just general weakness and injury

[ember river]

And they threw a ton of people under the bus to accomplish that, that's why they're assholes

Directly or indirectly they ruined many lives

[obsidian quail]

we don’t know the exact relationship between GMS and Weavers but it’s clear that GMS is not a good mom

[spark valve]

everyone is bad

[ember river]

GMS isn't good but neither are the Weavers

[obsidian quail]

the initial argument that started all this was u saying that nothing would change if GMS was like PK because Weavers are assholes

i’m saying idk if that’s true since GMS nature is what started it all

[ember river]

Nothing would chance either, PK still wanted an asbolute rule

[obsidian quail]

she wasn’t a good mom which led to Weavers acting drastic

[ember river]

The thing is in Hallownest the Pale King didn't really make anything remotely capable of opposing his rule

The closest thing was the Soul Sanctum and even they paled in comparison

[obsidian quail]

yeah but PK was very cool with his subjects, and it seems that GMS was not cool with Weavers

so i’m saying if their dynamic was healthier then nothing would have went down the way it did

everyone is a shade of grey

[ember river]

PK's subjects were weak ass bugs though

[obsidian quail]

what does that mean

he was still a chill guy

[ember river]

We don't really know how GMS was before being trapped other than she wanted to rule absolutely and the Weavers didn't really like that

[obsidian quail]

if GMS didn’t make Weavers for unhealthy purposes that don’t consider their agency, it woulda been fine

[ember river]

Xero did commit "crimes against the king" and was executed for it so the Pale King wasn't that tolerant either

[obsidian quail]

she has a habit of doing that because phantom and lace feel the same

she’s just flawed in that regard

so it’s not some delusional Weaver thing

[ember river]

The PK glaze is real

[obsidian quail]

how am i glazing PK

[ember river]

PK's children can't really complain about him because 99.9% of them were taken for dead in the Abyss after being offered to the void, then the Hollow Knight was locked up supposedly forever to contain a mental infection for all eternity, and Hornet calls him a fool for trying what he tried

[obsidian quail]

and how does any of that relate to how GMS treats her children

[wooden sphinx]

that fool remark was as much to pale king as to herself

[ember river]

He wasn't a good father and his rule was only as popular as it was because the common bug couldn't really have sights as high as the weavers did, and when bugs did approach them they DID oppose the Pale King

[ember river]

She didn't try to get the void to do her willing though, that's probably more to the shamans

[obsidian quail]

PK did not bind any bugs to servitude

ur comparing apples and oranges

[ember river]

He was still an absolute ruler, how do you know he was any different

[spark valve]

yeah it's not like there's a game set in hallownest or anything

[obsidian quail]

that’s appeal to ignorance fallacy, the burden of proof is on u and we don’t see any indication PK did that

and we know GMS did that

how can i disprove what hasn’t been stated

[wooden sphinx]

shrooms mantises hive and deepnest were free from his reign and he didnt really bothered them

[obsidian quail]

in the game of his kingdom

[spark valve]

shrooms threw their lot in with him but did so voluntarily

[waxen forum]

The moths changed religions to him but that’s because they’re moths and he’s a night light

[ember river]

We know a bunch of Weavers who were perfectly willing to make thousands suffer to keep their own freedom felt like they weren't free enough

Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

It doesn't even mention Weavers being serfs

[pale narwhal]

i mean, not really
thats seems more like the will of GMS specifically rather than all the weavers trying to free themselves from her

why would all the apostates imprison someone for being an apostate

if anything id say First Sinner could be a martyr for the weavers that fled

[ember river]

If GMS imprisoned First Sinner that kinda annihilates the timeline though

[pale narwhal]

how so?

[waxen forum]

Could’ve been an extended conflict between pro and anti GMS weavers

[ember river]

Since the Slab, the Citadel's prison would have been built before the citadel itself

[waxen forum]

We know widow at least remained loyal

[ember river]

The Citadel that was built to keep GMS asleep

[flint wadi]

GMS couldnt really be involved in the citadel if shes asleep

[wooden sphinx]

widow isnt pure weaver

[flint wadi]

or give out ruling

[pale narwhal]

and yet GMS was concious enough to make citadel bugs travel to hallownest and other kingdoms in search of weaver descendants to harvest

[ember river]

What do you mean she's not?

[pale narwhal]

her body may have been asleep, but shes clearly present enough to still give out orders

[ember river]

That was during the Haunting

[obsidian quail]

look at all of the other Weaver lore beyond that one dialogue u keep referencing

[spark valve]

she's waking up which enables the haunting, she wasn't giving commands before then or else she would've just had the weavers stop the citadel. She could only do that later on because bugs were injecting her silk right into themselves en masse

[ember river]

Which happened because she is waking up

[ember river]

The other weaver lore just supports that they fell that they weren't free enough for their liking, but also that they thought of themselves as gods, which doesn't really help their case

[wooden sphinx]

cradle cage lore
"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service. Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel. Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

[ember river]

The fact that they established a "false rule" that they could lavish in doesn't help it either

[obsidian quail]

there is no lore where they see themselves as gods, that’s just FS talking about the lie

[pale narwhal]

i do like this idea though
wouldnt make sense for all of them to oppose her

[ember river]

Uh, the "staked to service" part is the state where each weaver is before they are caught I believe

[obsidian quail]

i mean yeah imma enjoy not serving the big GMS

[whole juniper]

That doesn’t confirm them as not full… she actually bears the most resemblance, you can see that she used to have the weaver mask

[ember river]

Same as "mortally wounded" or "frail with age"

[tropic sapphire]

i have a théory
i think silk song is after hollow knight
proof : truste me bro

[ember river]

Again, sure, free yourself from your chains, but the fact that you're willing to put thousands to death or slavery because of your own freedom makes any claims immediately hypocritical

[wooden sphinx]

maybe you are right
then my bad

[waxen forum]

Widow definitely seems like a first generation weaver who remained loyal

[obsidian quail]

was the capitalist hell specifically by Weaver design

[lone folio]

wait can you see the weavers inside of the cages?

[spark valve]

they are hypocrites yes

[obsidian quail]

i thought that happened after

[ember river]

If not by their design, by the ones they gave the keys to

[obsidian quail]

i thought they took the keys

[whole juniper]

Comparing the full weaver mask size to widow it perfectly matches a normal weaver. They just ripped off the weaver shell

[spark valve]

they wanted to escape their own bondage and to do so they enslaved others that's like the whole point it's a cycle of brutal oppression

[ember river]

Still, putting someone in charge of your own freedom project is bad practice

[lone folio]

ah

[obsidian quail]

but i thought the citadel bugs took the power

the only thing Weavers did is show how to keep the song going

[full seal]

So, like, is Styx the same species as huntress?

[obsidian quail]

and Silk addiction + Capitalist hell took place during Citadel bug era

[ember river]

The only thing that could be somewhat interpreted as such is Bellador talking about how they "greedily took the mantle", which still doesn't mean it was violent, or that they weren't handed it

[obsidian quail]

didn’t some weavers die in the process

[ember river]

Moreso it seems like they were very eager to rule without thinking of the consequence

[obsidian quail]

i thought weavers got fucked

[spark valve]

(all of them remaining in the kingdom)

[wooden sphinx]

To be fair GMS rule was still probally bad without weavers hijacking it, Karak(coral tower folk) had to fight against her rule

[ember river]

I think that references the ones who went on to become the weavers in the pilgrim way

Also it is implied that there was a pilgrimage since Weaver times

[obsidian quail]

so what is the fault of the Weavers beyond making the system that the citadel bugs abused for their own Silk addiction

[ember river]

And people did worship Weavers as some sort of Saint, or deity

[obsidian quail]

isn’t the capitalist hell specifically for the silk addiction

[spark valve]

they still at minimum enslaved the vaultkeepers

and flies

[ember river]

Trapping a god and thinking that was a good idea

[ember river]

Vaultkeepers are slaves? They seem pretty influential

[potent patio]

How does pail oil work? Why is it needed to upgrade nails

[weak zealot]

doesnt really imply the rule itself was bad, hornet tells green prince that the nature of pale beings is that they need all to either submit to them or be destroyed

[obsidian quail]

okay now i’m convinced ur just a Weaver hater

hahahaha

[ember river]

There are no good parties in Silksong

That's kind of the point

[obsidian quail]

ur right everyone is grey

[ember river]

Including GMS

[obsidian quail]

but u make weavers worse than they are is my entire point

[flint wadi]

no, whiteward experiments were likely the catalyst for citadels downfall and therefore would have had to take place at the tailend of its lifespan

the capitalist hell was to keep the whole system going in general

[ember river]

They set the foundation of a system of oppression and set a giant ticking timebomb up top

[silk dirge]

i mean im under the impression the reason the weavers are like that is probably they inherited some good old pale being racism in them

[whole juniper]

The only good people in silksong are the random tribes who just want to mind their own business

[ember river]

It's not just capitalist, it's also dogmatically theocratical!

[ember river]

(and subsequently get annihilated)

[silk dirge]

tho a convincing theory is just that weavers did bad shit bc pharlids are annoying assholes

[flint wadi]

yes, absolutely diabolical combination

[sinful nimbus]

Why is racism hereditary

[whole juniper]

the downfall was most likely from gms being sealed by weavers and then they didn’t have enough silk to do everything they needed to

[obsidian quail]

but u keep ignoring what caused that

and the reason this argument started

[ember river]

We don't know how bad was it, nor does it justify the giant amount of suffering they caused

[wooden sphinx]

okey however in Hallownest Mantises, Hive, deepnest etc coexisted with Pale King kingdom instead of dying

[silk dirge]

i mean you get what i mean

[sinful nimbus]

wrong word 😭

[obsidian quail]

for someone who is saying the world is grey u seem to be painting weavers very black and white

[potent patio]

How did they get bugs to believe the citidel of pharloom was holy? Did they like tap into some kind of unamed religion or something?

[lone folio]

wait why doesnt herrah have one of those ball weaver masks?

[ember river]

We know GMS wasn't a free and fair ruler, but literally none of them are outside of Unn

[silk dirge]

when gms raised pharlids up they were influenced by the pale desire to dominate

[wooden sphinx]

we go to free her and old wench calls us half breed like WTF lady

[whole juniper]

Pale king simply made alliances they aren’t submitting whatsoever

[ember river]

Silksong isn't really grey, it's pitch black with some white dots here and there

[lone folio]

is she not a pure weaver or something?

[silk dirge]

tho like i said weavers are also probably like that bc pharlids are little bitches

[whole juniper]

Because she’s the fatass queen

[silk dirge]

especially the diving ones

[obsidian quail]

i think that’s ur own moral bias but we can agree to disagree

[silk dirge]

i fucking hate the diving pharlids

[ember river]

That's for the better

[whole juniper]

She is 100% weaver but doesn’t look like it

[silk dirge]

they just pop out deal 2 masks and dissappear

[ember river]

I prefer them to the crawling ones, those fuck up your platforming

[obsidian quail]

i thought the entire point of the capitalist hell was to keep the silk machine going

[flint wadi]

unn wasnt much of a ruler tbh, just a creationist that dipped and abandoned its spawn to get some milk

[ember river]

You can bait diving pharlids

[weak zealot]

im pretty sure they cooperated closely with him. like deals to secure their independence.

[ember river]

Doesn't he call the mosskin by the time of Hollow Knight?

[silk dirge]

i mean she was kinda chilling until pk arrived

[lone folio]

yeah she doesnt, she looks like a gross grub with some horns and a goofy mask

[whole juniper]

they created and then the creations became radianced and the creator is forgotten and being forgotten ruins your power

[silk dirge]

i mean why would unn need to do anything

[obsidian quail]

ur implying basically everyone in silksong is evil which is an interesting take

[potent patio]

Honestly it’s probably just a plot hole from the divergence between Hk lore with her as a beast and silksong with her being a weaver

[silk dirge]

she created mossy dudes and let them do whatever the fuck they wanted

[obsidian quail]

that’s extreme moral bias

[silk dirge]

thats pretty good for a higher being

[lone folio]

probably

[ember river]

They may have a reason to be but yes, typically enslaving lessers to keep your own power is evil

[lone folio]

i was wondering if there could be an explanation

[silk dirge]

most other higher beings want their creations to obey and worship them

and unn bc shes the goat just lets them do whatever

[ember river]

Unn still was worshipped

[sinful nimbus]

Mosskin worshiped Unn

[whole juniper]

Worship seems like power but letting them do whatever seems like a good way for them to worship someone else

[sinful nimbus]

Oh 🐌

[silk dirge]

yeah but she didnt force mossy dudes to do that

[lone folio]

i mean alot of the bugs in pharloom are pilgrims and they dont seem to be evil or anything

[silk dirge]

they just did bc she was a cool slug

[whole juniper]

Which is why she lost power eventually

[obsidian quail]

to me, a product a can’t be evil

[silk dirge]

i mean that was mainly bc of radiance infecting mosskin

[ember river]

It makes me wonder, if Unn had enough power to create greenpath and the mosskin, how can she lose it if the mosskin stop worshipping her?

[wooden sphinx]

wasnt there a lore that Unn dreamed mosskin to existance

[ember river]

Wouldn't the ability to create life be at the baseline?

[whole juniper]

I think if she kept them worshipping her then maybe she could help them fend it off

[whole juniper]

That is true lore

[silk dirge]

true that is an unn flaw

[lone folio]

intresting question

[ember river]

Same as radiance, if she dies when she's forgotten, how could she exist when there was nobody to know her

[silk dirge]

but id much rather she give the mosskin free will rather than forcing them to be her slaves

[obsidian quail]

saying a product of oppression is evil is ehhhh

[whole juniper]

Well maybe she used up a lot of power. That would explain it

[weak zealot]

i feel like unn is similiar to silksongs nyleth. he acted sort of like a seed, him creating greenpath took a lot of energy

[obsidian quail]

that’s not a good take

i think evil is something that is inherently so regardless of circumstance

[whole juniper]

And since they weren’t worshipped a shit ton they didn’t make it back I guess

[silk dirge]

i feel like its similar to an irl ecosystem you can plant a seed and then have an ecosystem develop but when you destroy parts of it it is more damaging than if it was never there

idk

[edgy barn]

This is esentially the same as the question of how did Radiance exist in the first place if she dies upon being forgotten. We don't really have a way to answer either

[silk dirge]

yeah this is a good question

[ember river]

I actually asked that right after the Unn one

[whole juniper]

They exist and then spend power to make something to worship them, to regain that power and make a net gain I guess

[silk dirge]

i think this also has to connect with how higher beings are created

[weak zealot]

i forget, was radiance just a really powerful member of the moth tribe or like, the progenitor and creator of them?

[sinful nimbus]

Rad is the only Hallownest HB to do that

[whole juniper]

Creator

[flint wadi]

what machine
and how do these things relate, the currency of faith was there to assign value to devotion, bugs that had more were deemed "holier" in the citadels eyes, which created a cult surrounding their collection and a predatory system that preyed on such devotion

it was there to instill this blind faith of piligrims and citadel bugs alike into the system, and the system did not exist for some offhand silk experiments in its basement alone

[silk dirge]

true pale king is goated

but hes not a slug so i cant love him

[ember river]

Higher Beings are investment firms

[whole juniper]

lmfao true

[silk dirge]

radiance stocks are gonna crash

[lone folio]

maybe Radiance is a special case since she is entirely made of dream essence, the nightmare heart needs a special ritual and its also made of some sort of essence. maybe essence higher beings need way more worship then others.

[whole juniper]

Nightmare heart stocks are always the same 💔

[ember river]

It has small gains, I feel like it's a safer investment in the long term

[wooden sphinx]

aint much but its honest work

[ember river]

Don't expect to make a lot of money from it though

[obsidian quail]

a metaphorical machine, i thought the entire system we see currently was put in place by the citadel bugs to keep the silk flowing

[whole juniper]

I think sometimes higher beings need some other fuel to keep alive or gain power and creating underlings is another way to procure a lot of it

[silk dirge]

hey

[whole juniper]

True

[flint wadi]

it was there to keep bugs flowing into the system

[silk dirge]

who wants to invest in some gms stocks

[ember river]

Real

[edgy barn]

Unless the troupe get banished in which case they probably go down a lot

[flint wadi]

the silk doesnt really have anything to with it

[whole juniper]

Pk stock was real high until the kingdom fell…

[ember river]

The underworks aren't really using silk and they are the shittiest place to be alive in all of pharloom

[whole juniper]

Probably would be removed form the market

[obsidian quail]

why would bugs need to be flowing

[lone folio]

i feel like only essence based higher beings need it that much and others are just powerful because they are powerful

[whole juniper]

Bile water

[ember river]

I stand by my point

[flint wadi]

because the entire citadel is a soceity operated by bugs???

[obsidian quail]

but they need to keep the citadel running, which processes the silk

[flint wadi]

they need new devotees

[whole juniper]

They aren’t powerful because they’re powerful, they need some source to fuel the power whether it’s worship from lower beings or fire from a dead kingdom

[flint wadi]

and they need to keep the myth of its holiness for their unquestionable patronage

[obsidian quail]

why do they need devotees, for what purpose

[ember river]

No? The purpose of the citadel was never as a silk refinery, silk was used as a resource to keep the citadel running, not the other way around

[silk dirge]

i feel like it could be when a higher being is born they quickly need to create worshippers to sustain them or else they immediately die

[flint wadi]

@obsidian quail .

[silk dirge]

that could be a good explanation

[weak zealot]

the weavers (or gms we dont know) just had an obsession with keeping the kingdom eternal. to that end they needed bugs to constantly work and live there, a living society and kingdom. but as part of that obsession of being eternal, they wanted even the bugs to live forever and work forever, never tiring. that is where the silk experiments came into place, to prolong life. now who knows who started them, the weavers or the bugs themselves

[ember river]

That could be the case, I guess

[silk dirge]

but it also needs to answer how a higher being is born in the first place

[lone folio]

does the pale king need any of that? he creates a kingdom just because its what wyrms do, while it could be that he also needs worship i just feel like worms just have massive egos

[whole juniper]

there has to be some sort of void rival being who makes pale flowers and hbs and is the big papa of the hk world

[ember river]

Doesn't help that the offsprings of Higher Beings we see isn't a higher being by default

[obsidian quail]

i thought the citadel was used to keep the GMS asleep, but it evolved beyond that as the citadel bugs took over and the system now includes silk processing because everyone is addicted to it

so now it has two purposes

[whole juniper]

It’s probably both

[ember river]

They're not literally addicted like a drug

[obsidian quail]

and the second purpose is what made it really toxic

[silk dirge]

i feel like void might be a sort of chaos out of which everything is born

[ember river]

They used it to extend their own lifes

And still, the underworks have nothing to do with silk and they are still there

[obsidian quail]

i know they’re not literally addicted gas but everyone and their mother has silk in them

[silk dirge]

so it could be higher beings just emerge out of the void like titans did in greek mythology

if im remembering correctly

[ember river]

The silk stuff plays a big part with some infrastructure but it was still a resource for the citadel system to keep working, not the other way around

[silk dirge]

i havent read rick riordan books in a while

[lone folio]

idk it seems odd that the pale king can just live as a worm with no worship and then he just finds some nice dirt settles down and starts his kingdom while the radiance is crying in the corner because she lost 7 followers

[whole juniper]

In Greek mythology titans were the babies of the BIG gods

Gaia iirc

[ember river]

Kronos!

[silk dirge]

oh yeah thats what i was talking about

[obsidian quail]

i thought the citadel changed under the citadel bugs rule and that’s what we see now

[weak zealot]

the bugs at the bottom that feed upon it do seem to be like some sort of early lifeform, the kind that hasnt changed or evolved throughout the centuries. and regular bugs just came from ones that evolved out of that void dependence

[silk dirge]

but gaia was born out of like chaos right

[ember river]

It probably changes, yeah, most of the architecture doesn't look like it was Weaver-made at all, neither does the technology

[weak zealot]

i feel like the real mystery is the source of pale. that has never been touched upon or hinted at as of yet

[silk dirge]

i wonder if its possible the ancient civilization became higher beings

[weak zealot]

and higher beings came out of that pale

[obsidian quail]

i remember asking why the Weavers made the Citadel architecture so different

[lone folio]

what "pale" ?

[obsidian quail]

and someone said it was probably revamped under citadel bug rule

[ember river]

We don't know how the society evolved either, but to assume silk was the cause and not a consequence is the wrong way IMO

[weak zealot]

in my previous message

[ember river]

May have been me

[whole juniper]

Ahhh him

[ember river]

Or someone else, there are a bunch of people who think that too

[edgy barn]

Do we know when the weavenests were created in relation to the citadel?

[ember river]

Not that I am aware of

[spark valve]

before, they were used to hide from gms

[lone folio]

pale what? pale beings?

[obsidian quail]

yeah but the silk isn’t my main point, my main point is people are pointing at Weavers for the current system when i was under the impression that whatever they initially did changed long ago and the system/citadel situation we see now is the product of the Citadel bug rule

[silk dirge]

bc it seems both pharloom and hallownest have similar development arcs of

-ancient civilization that dissappears somehow
-"original" civilizations before kingdom(mantis, hive, skarr, mosskin, karak, verdania, etc..)
-kingdom under domination of a pale being

[weak zealot]

"i feel like the real mystery is the source of pale. that has never been touched upon or hinted at as of yet"
pale everything. everything pale is mysterious. the delicate flower, everything. it seems to be supremely powerful and also incredibly mysterious

it feels like it has an source of some kind, something opposite to and similiar to the void

[whole juniper]

My theory is that the void civilization spans the whole world but in a rain world type thing they all kill themselves in the void

[ember river]

I still blame weavers since they passed down the keys of the entire system to common bugs

[silk dirge]

yeah

[flint wadi]

it has, but the citadels use and employment of silk wasnt ever the center of it all, the silk itself was only used as a way of extending life to perpetuate its existence

[silk dirge]

i think for example gargant glooms are probably fucking dinosaurs

[ember river]

The only mention of mortal bugs revolting (that I'm aware of) was against GMS, also mentioned by the Mask Maker, and this time alligned with the Weavers

[silk dirge]

thats what i call them

[obsidian quail]

silk wasn’t my main point, it was the Citadel bugs

[silk dirge]

abyss dinosaur thingies

[ember river]

That's a funny thought

[flint wadi]

you said that they setup rosaries for silk when it actually was to keep the cult of the citadel going

[obsidian quail]

but i thought beyond teaching citadel bugs the method to keep GMS asleep, they didn’t willingly pass the keys down

[whole juniper]

Honestly they’re probably the dinosaurs of the hk world but can’t survive on the upper world for some reason

[obsidian quail]

i thought it was taken from them

[lone folio]

could very well be, im pretty sure theres a tablet or something about sacrifing oneself to the void

[ember river]

I don't think there's any line arguing for that except a very ambiguous line from Ballador

[whole juniper]

They clearly have absurd strength and powers but they aren’t across the entire world

[obsidian quail]

okay but my main point was the current system we see in place is a product of Citadel bugs

[silk dirge]

yeah gargant glooms are fucking terrifying

[whole juniper]

There is. I think they wanted to embrace the void and they did so by just going into it or smth

[silk dirge]

honestly one of my favorite enemies tbh

[ember river]

The "we shall die" harp refers to some Weaver plan, which I think was them becoming the mummy things in the way

[spark valve]

we know slab predated conductors and the vaultkeepers who were compelled to serve the weavers

[ember river]

I find it annoying because they create those kamikaze glooms

[flint wadi]

that is indeed the case, yes

[spark valve]

conductors might have scaled up operations but the weavers sucked too

[ember river]

Was it the vaultkeepers or the architects?

The architect has reverence for Weavers and their technological legacy

[silk dirge]

but anyways yeah i think glooms are a very ancient form of bug that probably evolved into shit

like maybe they emerged out of the sea of void and eventually evolved into the ancient civilization

idk

[ember river]

Glooms seem too simple of a lifeform for that I'd say

[obsidian quail]

i’m saying that the expansion of the citadel and the capitalist hell we see is a product of many things including the silk system that spans inner pharloom , such as greymoor and sinner’s road etc

[lone folio]

isnt the ancient civilazation the weavers?

[obsidian quail]

Weavers had nothing to do with that

[ember river]

Nah, it predates them

[silk dirge]

i do really think void is supposed to be a sort of primordial substance everything emerges out of

[ember river]

They also went to the Void but so did the Pale King

[lone folio]

isnt the architecture the same though??

[ember river]

It has nothing to do with it

[lone folio]

huh?

[spark valve]

there's not much reason to think rosaries were a newer addition

[weak zealot]

its similiar but not the same i think

[obsidian quail]

so Weavers are not perfect but Citadel bugs are definitely worse

[silk dirge]

nah theres one room in abyss with ac architecture thats quite a bit different

[ember river]

We don't really know what Weavers did

We know that GMS ruled absolutely and Weavers didn't like that and that Weavers put her to sleep, but that's about as much as we know of that time

[obsidian quail]

but u blamed weavers for a lot of shit which is why i was confused

[flint wadi]

the silk was NOT the cause, it was a symptom

they turned to silk to extend their rule

[obsidian quail]

yes neverlake i know

[silk dirge]

this room

[obsidian quail]

but the current citadel and rosary capitalist hell go hand in hand and i thought current citadel was masterminded by citadel bugs?

[silk dirge]

this is quite a bit different from weaver architecture

[lone folio]

oh yeah these walls

[lone folio]

it feels similar though

[obsidian quail]

that’s not even Weaver architecture

and all the robots and whatnot

[silk dirge]

im not saying it is

[obsidian quail]

i thought that was post Weaver era

[flint wadi]

and this really depends on how the transfer of rule happened

[silk dirge]

im saying this is ancient civilization architecture

[flint wadi]

they werent behind any of the shit but they mightve been the ones that sowed the seeds

[lone folio]

idk i saw the arcane egg in a weaver room and i thought to myself "wow weavers are the ancient civilazation"

[spark valve]

current citadel is run by conductors but even before the conductors the weavers were doing Bad Shit™ like generationally enslaving the slab flies and the vaultkeepers

[lone folio]

atleast i think that it was a weaver room

it looked like it

[obsidian quail]

the slab flies were a dick move hahaha

i wonder what the sin was

[flint wadi]

if the citadel was already existing in some capacity and required bugs to sustain the song then a lot of bad practices couldve been setup by the weavers

[obsidian quail]

and i’m assuming this time period is when Widow got all mangled?

[ember river]

Well, think of my perspective, Weavers wanted to be free, so they trap GMS in the Cradle.
Willingly or unwillingly, they've set a timebomb doomed to go off at some point, and they establish a holy rule themselves (the pilgrimage and all the religious stuff does come from the weaver rule).
Eventually, they pass down the keys to bugs and go do their own thing, without watching over the timebomb they set up or any oppression that these new bugs may enact.

Even if their rule was fair and just they inadvertedly set the foundations for one that was not

[spark valve]

presumably

[ember river]

When is it stated that vaultkeepers are slaves

[obsidian quail]

i initially thought Widow got mangled and she saw it as like holy retribution and still served

like accepting punishment from GMS on behalf of the Weavers

fanatical stuff

self flagellation kinda

[ember river]

Well she is described as a fanatic

[obsidian quail]

that’s why i thought she willingly let GMS do that to her, that’s what a fanatic would do

and see it as good

[whole juniper]

It’s said that masks change who you are and she took away her mask so maybe that’s it

[ember river]

Could be

[dry bridge]

I think pale is soul, or maybe that soul is one such manifestation of the pale energy (with silk and maybe essence being other manifestations of the same sort of energy)

[ember river]

Damnit TC, why is the timeline so confusing this time

[ember river]

Silk is soul

[dry bridge]

yeah I know

[ember river]

Also, Higher Beings that aren't pale at all are still very able to manipulate Essence

[flint wadi]

gms

[obsidian quail]

atp Widow is the only Weaver still serving GMS so i thought she could still serve her with the caveat being her current state

[whole juniper]

Product of soul

[obsidian quail]

and the rest of the Weavers are silk fodder

[ember river]

Soul woven into thread IIRC

[reef cloud]

pk pretending hallownest is the ‘first and last kingdom’ only for several civilisations to exist

[ember river]

Again, his idea was to last forever, the only true eternal civilization

[spark valve]

I mean if widow did still have her silk gms probably would've bound her or whatever she did to the hybrids

[weak zealot]

pk pretending to give bugs sentience when sentient bugs are everywhere

[reef cloud]

^^

[obsidian quail]

i got an extreme self flagellation fanatical vibe from her like she willingly let that happen

[ember river]

It would have been the oldest and only civilization if that worked

[ember river]

PK did give sentience to a lot of bugs

[obsidian quail]

yeah and i thought the only reason she wasn’t turned to silk fodder was because she was loyal but she still had to accept punishment

which was her current state

[reef cloud]

he acted like he was the only one who cld do it

[ember river]

The majority of bugs from Hallownest owe it to him

[obsidian quail]

but just my initial thoughts

[reef cloud]

presumably to manipulate bugs to staying

[ember river]

Did he?

[reef cloud]

may be misremembering but pretty sure

[ember river]

Kinda dumb considering Unn lives next door

I don't remember anything like that

[midnight zinc]

The bugs in the city of tears and crossroads maybe, that’s about it

[reef cloud]

well acc he didnt give sentience he gave ‘higher thought’ which ig is different

[obsidian quail]

so any nearby bugs would get lured by Weavers right

like the nameless town

like sirens and their music

[ember river]

I thought those are the same, still I don't recall him calling himself the only source

[plain walrus]

It seems the silk ensnared them like how Hornet can with the needolin

[reef cloud]

only source of higher thought defo prolly wrong abt sentience

[ember river]

And crystal peaks, not to mention the city of tears is meant to be huge, larger than what we find ingame if you look at the background

[ember river]

Aren't those the same?

[plain walrus]

Animals like cats have sentience but I wouldn't say they have higher thought

[whole juniper]

He sorta acted like it was some one of a kind thing since he advertised it a lot

[ember river]

Basically making them into thinking bugs from common beasts

[plain walrus]

Yeah

[ember river]

Well those occurences seem pretty rare

Every other god in Hallownest just gave it to their tribe

[reef cloud]

if they had no sentience before could they have worshipped things like the radiance or the void

[whole juniper]

The poem about how he made higher thought is at the very start of the game, but I definitely think his ability to grant higher thought is much more powerful

[spiral light]

eva is so cool and interesting to me, im so excited to see if people find out more about her lore

[ember river]

Oh, moths, mosskin and definetely the ancient civilization weren't given higher thought by the PK

Neither were the mantises

Pretty much the bugs that form the kingdom itself were

So the crossroads, basin, city of tears, crystal peaks

[reef cloud]

thats a lotta factions tho so you can see where i think higher thought and sentience have differences

even the hive had its own sentience

[ember river]

Sentience is just awareness, even common beasts are sentience
Higher thought is being like a human

The hive and mantis tribe, and seemingly deepnest spiders had higher thought without seemingly any god granting them

Then the Radiance gave it to the moths and Unn gave it to the mosskin

[whole juniper]

He was able to give the common bug higher thought I guess

[ember river]

And plenty of species, too

Most higher beings limit themselves to one

Or a handful of closely related ones like Unn

[silk dirge]

i mean the ancient civ physically could not be given higher thought bc they didnt fucking exist

[ember river]

Yeah, that tends to happen

[whole juniper]

why didn’t they exist

[ember river]

They were long gone

[whole juniper]

ohh

[silk dirge]

they died

[reef cloud]

void juice got em

[silk dirge]

how? i dont know

[reef cloud]

i assume

[silk dirge]

or if my theory is correct which it probably isnt they maybe evolved into higher beings somehow

[whole juniper]

Do you think they lived down their cause the surface was prowled by giant wyrms

[whole juniper]

I think they embraced the void

[silk dirge]

i really hope we learn more about the ancient history of bug world in some dlc

[reef cloud]

their shells are still seen so unless its like eldritch ascension idk

[silk dirge]

bc we learn a lot about past history as in like verdania and ofc recent history

but we know next to nothing about ancient history

we basically dont know anything about ancient civ other than they worshipped void

[reef cloud]

except they were fuckin massive

[whole juniper]

maybe the whole world

but died from their void kink

[reef cloud]

i mean i wld drink it so

[ember river]

I think that's intentional

[whole juniper]

the older the less we are supposed to know

[ember river]

Just like petrol, the forbidden drink

[ember river]

Kinda like in real life, too

[whole juniper]

yeah things just naturally fade from what anyone can find but arcane eggs are supposed to help with that…

[silk dirge]

yeah but how else am i supposed to learn about if they had a subpar copper merchant

[ember river]

Arcane eggs seem like the result of giving a pendrive to someone after a nuclear apocalypse and 300 years of time passing

[silk dirge]

ea naskongier

[whole juniper]

they made stuff out of metal so probably?

[reef cloud]

it does go clang when you hit it

[ember river]

They will have him displayed everywhere to bear great shame to his bloodline

[cold hill]

I think its widely accepted that silksong is a prequel to hollow knigjt but is there any actual proof of it

[ember river]

It's not a prequel

[whole juniper]

what

[reef cloud]

its defo a sequel

[whole juniper]

nobody thinks it’s a prequel bro

[ember river]

Where did you get that from

[sand spruce]

sequel 100%

[ember river]

Is he trolling

[cold hill]

A lot do actually

[reef cloud]

literally see the knight in void form

[barren beacon]

So did Garmond die and get taken over by void? or can void just take over alive bugs if it want's to?

[ember river]

Reddit?

[whole juniper]

“I will not stand sentinel for a second kingdom” the knight in void form also

[cold hill]

Couldve been to another kingdom off screen

[ember river]

Void haunting is just normal haunting

[reef cloud]

‘i have seen many things in my home land’

[sand spruce]

"I have always been a daughter of Hallownest"?

[ember river]

Yeah you're trolling

[silk dirge]

anyone who does has never played act 3

[whole juniper]

this is just rage bait

[ember river]

Get out of here

[silk dirge]

or gotten true ending

[whole juniper]

please get out

[reef cloud]

oh yea hornet was chillin at land of storms ofc

[silk dirge]

the true ending is explicit about silksong being a sequel

[cold hill]

Ive played act 3 brudda call it trolling theres no proof its a sequel

[whole juniper]

why’s the knight there then

[silk dirge]

what

[ember river]

Isn't shitposting on this channel against the rules or something?

[reef cloud]

we got hallownest deniers now

[sand spruce]

hallownest was a psyop

[silk dirge]

you cant get more explicit than a fucking reference to something that only happens when you beat hk

[silk dirge]

it depends

[whole juniper]

You can tell he’s rage baiting by the fact he isn’t replying to the messages asking him about the proof

[silk dirge]

like if your just throwing in a meme every once in a while i think its fine

if you are constantly spamming it then its a problem

[obsidian forge]

I just had a sort of half baked idea and wanted to see if anyone else had any thoughts. I was reading a (rare) good lore post on the reddit by ToadBrigade5 and it had me thinking about the weaver we see in Hollow Knight

[ember river]

Well, yeah, but this seems like pretty low effort trolling

[silk dirge]

yeah true

[whole juniper]

Well he already gave up too

[obsidian forge]

I am thinking the weaver running away might somehow be connected to Hornet getting captured at the start of silksong

[ember river]

Threatening with the rules never fails to get results

[cold hill]

Yeah becus you guys are toxic as fk

[whole juniper]

you just don’t know what you’re talking about

we assume you have some sort of knowledge about the game or atleast watch a little mossbag

[ember river]

If you genuinely think what you're saying you're either delusional or blind

[reef cloud]

stupid or ragebait pick your poison

[cold hill]

See

Toxic lol. Theres genuinely no solid proof its a sequel more so that its a prequel because hornet doesnt have any of her powers

[whole juniper]

if you aren’t gonna take the lore seriously then we aren’t gonna take you seriously

[silk dirge]

"no solid proof"

the literal true ending in question:

[reef cloud]

ill gladly apologise if you replied to the counterpoints

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet lost her powers from her time in the cage you see in the opening cutscene

[sullen cave]

||So the void can break the 4th wall, huh?||

[whole juniper]

explain true ending and she lost her power from the cage btw

[timber pond]

😂

[ember river]

?

[cold hill]

But then why would hornet get her powers back from widow shrines

[whole juniper]

Widow shrines

what????

[silk dirge]

whar

[ember river]

Weaver shrines you mean?

[silk dirge]

😭

[whole juniper]

Weavers used to life here

[cold hill]

The spider things you bind

[sinful nimbus]

They are weaver techniques

[reef cloud]

literally first convo she has in the chapel

[ember river]

She binds weavers to get their knowledge

[sullen cave]

When the trap is used to imprison GMS, the void tried to shut the player out of the save file.

[cold hill]

She needs to get their knowledge in this game even though she used those attacks in hollownest

[ember river]

I think that's just cinematic, to show Hornet lost consciousness for a longer period of time than it's usual

[silk dirge]

yeah bc her time in the cage made her forget how to use those powers

it drained her

[timber pond]

She litteraly says the cage they put her in with a seal of binding just drained all of those powers

[foggy fractal]

hello skibidis

[sullen cave]

aww, it would've been cool if it could, even if that serves no real purpose in the lore

[cold hill]

Thats so stupid why those powers would be out and about either that means hornet just knew, lost those powers when she came to farloom and had to re learn those same moves in an entirely different kingdom, or she learnt those powers in farloom, then came to hollownest

[ember river]

Adding a fourth wall to the lore makes me shudder

[silk dirge]

those powers are hidden in shrines bc they are weaver powers

and hornet is descended from weavers

[timber pond]

Look at my damn message bro #sk-lore message

[sinful nimbus]

"lost those powers when she came to farloom and had to re learn those same moves in an entirely different kingdom" its this

[foggy fractal]

oh no are we arguing if its a prequel / sequel I thought sister of the void made it pretty clear

[timber pond]

He cant be there if its a prequel dawg 😂

[ember river]

What's more stupid?
• Hornet losing her powers and giving an explanation in the game
• The knight showing up in a prequel as void given form with the army of shades

[foggy fractal]

unless we introduce time travel somehow

[ember river]

It did, he's just low effort trolling

[cold hill]

Could be the hollow knight not really sure theres proof its a prequel proof its a sequel team cherry does this on purpose

[silk dirge]

what

[timber pond]

??????

[cold hill]

Dont forget at the end of hollow knoght hornet was literally trapped in the egg

[ember river]

Fuck off with this nonsense already

[silk dirge]

that is literally the knight at the dream no more ending

[drifting elbow]

I am confused. Since the Void attacked Hornet earlier before the Knight shows up, does that mean the Lord of Shade is only part of the void and not the whole void since it did not recognize Hornet earlier?

[silk dirge]

yes sealed siblings isnt canon

[timber pond]

In ONE ENDING OF FIVE.

[ember river]

This is some low effort shitpost

[foggy fractal]

someone joker psa this guy

[reef cloud]

so true king trapped siblings is canon

[cold hill]

????

[silk dirge]

hollow knight has 5 endings

[ember river]

Guys clown react every message splinty says

[silk dirge]

two of them dont lead to silksong

[cold hill]

Yeah and one of those endings is a flower killing the void

[foggy fractal]

sister of the void (silksong act 3 ending) can only happen after embrace the void or dream no more anyway

[obsidian forge]

so what hk ending is cannon? can't be the hollow knight, sealed siblings, or delicate flower. Embrace the void and dream no more seem like the only possibilities to me

[cold hill]

Genuinely its up to the viewer which one they believe is canon or not

[ember river]

DNM or EtV, I've heard good arguments for both

[silk dirge]

delicate flower might be canon

[reef cloud]

delicate flower cld be canon cuz hornet knows the flower keeps the void at bay

[silk dirge]

i think it could just repel the shade lord immediately to the abyss

[ember river]

Well we know the WL told her

[obsidian forge]

how so?

[timber pond]

IT isnt because the knight cant be in the void if Dream no more or Embrace the void dont happen

[silk dirge]

we dont know exactly what happens in that ending

[sullen cave]

There's only so much disbelief I can suspend before the plot holes become too big to ignore

[reef cloud]

true acc

[drifting elbow]

I think Hornet only knows that because the White Lady told her in the red memory

[obsidian forge]

doesn't delicate flower like, kill the knight?

[silk dirge]

we dont know exactly

[ember river]

DNM, EtV and DF all have their reasons

[reef cloud]

its obviously one of the void endings tho

[ember river]

It kills the Godseeker who had just attuned to the void

[lean temple]

Hornet was literally looking for the flower

[cold hill]

5 endings but only 1 is “canon” to fit ur guys narrative so stupid bye bye

[silk dirge]

i feel like etv is just shade lord gets to fuck around in hallownest and do whatever

[ember river]

The Knight had become something else entirely

[timber pond]

not nessceciraily, it just like teleports it mabye? is unclear could be interpreted either way.

[obsidian forge]

it seems like as the void is escaping, it gets deleted

[reef cloud]

a sequel literally requires only one to be canon

[silk dirge]

while df is just repelled to abyss immediately

[foggy fractal]

Team Cherry could change their mind too

[drifting elbow]

Hmmm good point

[ember river]

Up to 3, and goodbye, we won't miss your negative addition to this channel

[silk dirge]

thats not what i said? 3 out of the 5 endings are potentially canon

[timber pond]

Shades would not show up to hronets aid if it were seald siblings or the normal ending of hollow knight

[foggy fractal]

like we shouldn't go by statements in the past that contradicts something introduced in the new game

[silk dirge]

yeah

its an ancient ass statement

[foggy fractal]

just assume that the new game is the correct interpetation

[cold hill]

All i did was say a theory and everynody has pitch forks and knives 😆

[silk dirge]

from the ancient year of 2018

[ember river]

From before Silksong was even started as a DLC

[ember river]

Put some effort into your trolls next time

[drifting elbow]

In addition, each ending being canon was said years ago. TC could’ve changed their mind

[silk dirge]

yeah true they were still finishing up godmaster

[timber pond]

They alsso said in the ama "we are gonna take a break from hollow knight after silksong" but they seem to have gone back on that saying "this shit too much fun i love this world too much" lol

[foggy fractal]

true that

[silk dirge]

terraria syndrome

relogic is never abandoning terraria i think

and team cherry might end up like that with hk

[timber pond]

yeah but good tbh. This shit is teh new casttelvania

[ember river]

Indie Development Addiction Syndrome

[silk dirge]

they have a super cool world and id love if they made more

[silk dirge]

yeah exactly

i feel like silksong is definitely set up for more exploration of the full bug world with the abyss being an entire underworld now basically

[obsidian forge]

I'm curious what happened to the Hollow Knight if EtV is cannon. Clearly hornet and HK fight, perhaps giving citadel bugs the opportunity to capture hornet?

[sand spruce]

real, they have a buncha potential with the 4(?) exits from pharloom, i'm really curious to see what they'll do with that

[ember river]

Why would they fight

[silk dirge]

nah hornet says she fought many envoys

so they possibly just overwhelmed her

or surprised her

[lethal burrow]

also silksong takes place a while after any ending of the first game

[ember river]

HK is free from the Radiance, why would it just attack Hornet on sight, or vice versa?

[obsidian forge]

Hornet does her challenge and HK uses some rune thing on the nail

[timber pond]

Well that and delicate flower exclusively having the purpose of being tied to the void, along with pale beings.
whatever the fuck Greyroot is.
Steel Clan.
whatever happened to The hollow Knight

[foggy fractal]

that's just how the nail looks

[ember river]

She also says she thought them cunning, so they probably set up a decent trap or had a good, well planned strategy

[drifting elbow]

I think steel clan is our next godhome dlc lol

[ember river]

Hornet stays on guard because something came from behind the door that was meant to be empty

[lethal burrow]

I can't wait for sharpe to be cut again

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like she probably was surprised and thats how they managed to catch her and she was basically unconscious in the cage

where if she gets captured in silksong shes well aware of whats going on which is why you can break out of it in the slab

[foggy fractal]

plus if they confirmed or continued with that Hornet and THK interaction that'd be basically making ETV canon

[timber pond]

Depends, you have to think about it, Because the Dream Nail equivalent in this game IS the Deep Memory the shamans give you. So it would only make sense to be able to refight bosses in hornets "past"

[ember river]

I like the narrative that canonizing EtV opens up, even though I prefer DNM as an ending for HK

[obsidian forge]

She would know that HK was in there, so i find this a little hard to believe

[ember river]

Well yeah, but HK was meant to be chained forever

She would be rather surprised to find it randomly walking out and the infection dead

Keep in mind she doesn't know what the Knight is doing

[timber pond]

THis is another thing team cherry could do.

what if when they said "all endings are cannon" they just meant "yeah, we have a cannon outcome for the world in each ending and we will spin a wheel to decide which one after silksong"😂

[obsidian forge]

If she just watched the infection draining from vines, then hears shambling and chains coming from where she knows that HK was chained up, I think she would know it was HK

[ember river]

I joked about Zoteboat being set after HK/SS

[drifting elbow]

What if they ended up doing a sequel for each ending 💀

[ember river]

Well, again, why would she attack

Neither of them have any reason to throw their lifes away, much less against each other

[timber pond]

probably uncertain wether or not hte knight is in its right mind because she has no idea whats going on

[ember river]

Yeah, preemtively staying on guard is one thing, but trying to kill it unprovoked is something else

[obsidian forge]

It's just my interpretation but the fact she uses her exact challenge taunt from Silksong makes it seem like shes gonna fight. HK also bares the nail aggressively. It is up to interpretation though

[fierce jasper]

is volume of flea brew considert lore?

[ember river]

You can strike that pose without challenging anyone though

Press V

[whole juniper]

my phone died what was the guys defense against true ending confirming ss is a sequel?

[ember river]

Nothing

[whole juniper]

Lmao

[timber pond]

If we get a DLC where hornet can continously use "deep Memory" on herself then we can totaly get an answer in silksong.

[drifting elbow]

GUARAMA

[obsidian forge]

Yeah but that's pretty clearly just a game design thing. You can make hornet jump into spikes, but that doesn't mean she would do that for no reason in lore

[ember river]

I'm not sure if we'll get an answer but a Hornet's past DLC would go hard

[whole juniper]

We already know so much of her past I’d prefer new content AND new lore

[ember river]

Well if you bring up the lore there's no reason why those two would immediately attack each other, even though they both have reason to be wary

[drifting elbow]

Honestly, I agree

[timber pond]

The thing is ,its kind of all jumbled up together lol

[ember river]

Yeah, I agree, but the thought of finally getting a face to face conversation with the pale king is too alluring

[whole juniper]

True

[foggy fractal]

pel kig

[whole juniper]

I’d also like to see some Grimm troupe interaction with hornet

[obsidian forge]

HK did just escape being imprisoned for an indefinte amount of time while holding the infection in its mind. And hornet's whole thing in HK was being a sentinel for Hallownest. Probably wouldn't want something like HK just wandering around

[ember river]

I'm not sure of how I'd feel if the Troupe just showed up

[whole juniper]

Well good thing it needs to use its nail as a crutch

[sullen cave]

SURELY the Grimm Troupe will show up in a DLC? Pharloom crashing harder than Hallownest must be tantalizing to the Nightmare Heart.

[whole juniper]

It would make sense for them to show up after the events of act 3

[drifting elbow]

Them showing up would indicate pharloom is dying again or something

[foggy fractal]

I'd argue act 3 makes sense
anytime before or after though not really

[obsidian forge]

I don't think it's using the nail as a crutch. You can hear it take several steps before slamming the nail into the ground

[ember river]

Why not? The infection was dead, the Hollow Knight was one of the strongest warriors that the kingdom ever produced, and was devoted to its task, if anything it would make sense to try and get it to help

[ember river]

Well, yes it would but I'd much rather get something new than the same DLCs with the same old lore

[sullen cave]

I don't think so. They're magic scavengers, they'd just be there for what's already dead.

[whole juniper]

It is a long crutch therefore it lasts multiple steps before you need to replant it onto the ground. Or he’s just using it to stabilize after walking without it for a while

[whole juniper]

True

[ember river]

We already know that from the Herald

[whole juniper]

Who’s the herald again

[drifting elbow]

Mr Mushroom

[timber pond]

Mr mushroom lol

[whole juniper]

ohhh

[whole juniper]

I suppose it isn’t very reusable

[drifting elbow]

I love that he’s suddenly a respected individual lol

[sullen cave]

I don't recall seeing any ofther character with the title Mr. Are there any other?

[obsidian forge]

4 seconds ago the infection was everywhere. I think its fair to say we arent chill with HK just yet. Not to mention, Hornet never met HK as far as I know until that moment. She knows its purpose but she was plenty willing to kill vessels who should have been equally devoted

[drifting elbow]

I thought mr mushroom was just a random dude in hallownest

[ember river]

Think of it this way: People like the grimm troupe because it has great fights and iconic characters, and they'd like to get more of them. However, getting a new DLC could mean getting even MORE iconic characters and fights to be enjoyed

[timber pond]

Well yeah ,we all thought that until this game lol.

[whole juniper]

If Grimm troupe was added to the game it would need something bigger to go with it, like just make it a side quest

I don’t know if they could recreate the same level of boss fight that nkg was

[ember river]

She killed those vessels for a variety of factors. Namely, the chance that they just make everything worse, the fact that they are rather weak, or that they have no idea of what's going on and what they have to do.
Risking her life against the Hollow Knight when the problem's solved is out of character for her

[ember river]

They did with my beloved pure vessel

[whole juniper]

Ah pv wasn’t as fun as nkg for me

[ember river]

Fair enough

[whole juniper]

It’s possible partly cause nkg has the best battle theme

[hidden sequoia]

Okay so is Lace a child or not.

[ember river]

It does make the battle much more dynamic

[whole juniper]

I also haven’t really found as many good boss themes as I did in hk

[whole juniper]

I love how the music changes as you get deeper into the battle

[ember river]

In base HK or in DLCs too?

[whole juniper]

She isn’t as old as one but she is made as one

[molten parcel]

Anything but ss lore /hj

[obsidian forge]

Like you said, she doesn't know what the knight (player) was doing in that ending. All she saw was infection leaving some vines, then she sees the thing that was carrying the infection moving towards her. I think its fair to say she would at least fight to subdue HK until she knew the situation better.

[drifting elbow]

She might be a “child” in a sense that she is a lot younger than hornet but not like a literal child, if that makes sense

[whole juniper]

All vanilla content so yes dlc so ig it isn’t fair to compare it this way but even still in base hk I don’t think any song is as good as mantis lords from ss

[hidden sequoia]

So physically a child but much older than a child?

[molten parcel]

Lace acts childish

[whole juniper]

P much

And yeah she acts childish and is rebellious

[hidden sequoia]

Oh God is she a 1000 year old ||Loli|| this is a terrible revelation

[drifting elbow]

Fair enough

[edgy stone]

Lace is also just not mentally right either

[sullen cave]

I can't remember where it was mentioned, but GMS was purposefully keeping Lace from maturing mentally.

[ember river]

Well, she would try to make light of what's going on, if a fight ensued or not is beyond my knowledge, so I don't think assuming either result is a good call

[edgy stone]

Shes described as a child spun mad

[whole juniper]

Why and where

[foggy fractal]

😭 nahhh

[midnight zinc]

That goes for every area. And yes crystal peak too, but that’s three areas. The mosskin, mushrooms, spiders, bees, and moths weren’t affected by the beacon.

[edgy stone]

I mean its literally stated, the woman was born insane

[drifting elbow]

That’s a little effed up tbh

[foggy fractal]

I'm not denying it just saying its foul

[ember river]

I personally liked the Clockwork Dancers, Karmelita and the Lace themes a lot, but yeah I see what you mean

[sullen cave]

I can't remember where it was stated, I'm sorry. I only know it was mentioned by one of the NPCs. Maybe it was the caretaker of the first shrine?

[terse warren]

It's not that she was keeping her from doing that, just that she was made to be a child and since she's artificial she can't grow. It's not that GMS is actively stopping her, she just can't due to her nature

[whole juniper]

Cogwork dancers also has a really good them and maybe it is as good as mantis lords… both are similar fights with both equal good music that’s crazy

[molten parcel]

Hornet X lace is so weird cuz like lace is way too young for hornet lmao

[hidden sequoia]

GMS just gets worse and worse istg

[obsidian forge]

Yeah to my original point, whether they fought or not doesn't really matter. The implications of them meeting and how that ties into Silksong is interesting either way. But i feel like the potential is there that their fight in some way could lead to hornet being easy to capture by being weakened

[sullen cave]

To that end, I genuinely thought Hornet was going to adopt Lace or some shit.

[whole juniper]

I couldn’t tell the lace fight themes I only heard her battle chants

[midnight zinc]

Respectfully, Lace’s theme alone sweeps most of the boss themes from HK.

[drifting elbow]

Lace mommy issues justified I guess lol

[sullen cave]

That actually makes more sense to me. I change my mind.

[whole juniper]

Hk dlc sweeps

[terse warren]

Lacenet existed way before the game was out. And people aren't gonna read every dialogue

[edgy barn]

People didn't know that before the game released

[edgy stone]

I do think hornet takes in lace as the sister she could never have

[ember river]

Oh, that convo, yeah my point was that those areas had at most one specific ruler that granted them higher thought, no god did it to the extent the PK did, though it's definetely not the only source and if that's stated anywhere it's likely propaganda

[sullen cave]

You let a ship take root for 7 years, and it's gonna take ages to uproot it.