sk-lore

[twilit current]

Back to the daughter of hallownest part, that line really had me wondering what it's like to live in a dead kingdom

[terse warren]

PK is tied to Hallownest, kinda silly to slander him and then say she is a daughter of his kingdom

[terse warren]

Tbh she lived a lot of her time in an alive one lol

[twilit current]

Criticism of someone is not mutually exclusive of appreciation

And I think viewing them as mutually exclusive is rather dangerous in this day and age

Besides, Hornet's saying this in reference to her own void related messup

[pastel timber]

i mean she is a daughter of hallownest thats just a solid fact, and she was using it specifically to refer to her strange ties to the void iirc

[half cobalt]

who tf is singing

[terse warren]

Hornet never says anything good about her dad

[zinc pivot]

That one vaultkeeper you killed the first time you were there

[terse warren]

No it gets replaced with another guy

[twilit current]

He was an absent father to her, I'd be surprised if she had anything good to say

Honestly I think she sees him with some kind of begrudging respect

Especially considering she now has to deal with something similar

[zinc pivot]

Considering those guys normally respawn i think its the same one

[terse warren]

No the arena gets replaced by a fully different enemy

[terse warren]

Just wait till Path of Pain 2 with the reward being a cutscene of Hornet and PK looking at each other

[zinc pivot]

I once read a breakdown of Hornets Memory sequence’s lack of PK, the poster noted Hornet’s actions through out the game serves as a parallel to PK

[twilit current]

Wow incredible sequel

Sequel to father stares at vessel: father stares at hornet

[pastel timber]

you go into hornets memories again and you literally just redo path of pain as hornet

[zinc pivot]

Including messing with void and receive consequences

[pastel timber]

DAUGHTER OF THREE QUEENS 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️ 🔥 🔥 🔥

[zinc pivot]

Ngl its gonna be easy with clawline serving as a portable super dash

As well as making pogos less of a pain

[zinc pivot]

And a deadbeat dad

[modest coyote]

I’m like 90% sure the “fool to think you could control void” is just a hint that hornet thinks pale king died of void

Did pale king die of void? Idk- but if hornet thought he did; then the “only a fool thinks they could control void” would make sense in that context

[scenic stirrup]

Aint no way i just noticed this

[manic pewter]

didnt bro just like starve to death lol

[twilit current]

I mean, his throne room is very dark compared to the rest of the white palace

[scenic stirrup]

Elder hu is from shakras tribe?

[pastel timber]

she says to the barkeep in halfway home that her wyrm half means she doesnt really need to eat like ever

[pastel timber]

it has void balls in it

[manic pewter]

ah nvm then

[twilit current]

Canonical reason why Hornet never eats in Silksong

[terse wadi]

Aren't all dream warriros backer character s and isn't he a mantis elder

[manic pewter]

binary pulsar when nonbinary pulsar walks in

[scenic stirrup]

I bet she tried some moorwing from the caravan at some point

[modest coyote]

(Also consider that hornet writes the hunter’s journal in real time- and she writes those entries during red memory time—- beginning of act 3— where she might not have the best view of trying to control void!)

[twilit current]

Yeah I find the irony in my username funny

[pastel timber]

mhm! it looks like team cherry took a lot of inspiration from hk backer characters for silksong tribes, see also that one spirits glade ghost that looks like a coral tower warrior

[terse wadi]

The void particles come after you sit on the trone iirc

*throne

[manic pewter]

OH WAIT YOU ARE NB LOL

[modest coyote]

This btw is what I think the reason is for calling him a fool

[manic pewter]

i missed the they/them

[twilit current]

Yeah look at my pronouns

[modest coyote]

In reality it’s moreso addressed to the snail shamans

[twilit current]

And if you look really closely at my PFP

[pastel timber]

she calls trying to control the void a stupid endeavour to sula too in the steel soul quest

[modest coyote]

The lore of steel soul is very strange

Well still I think hornet thinks pale king died of void

[pastel timber]

have those pronoun role emote things next to the usernames been there the whole time i swear i only just noticed them like they snapped into existence

[terse wadi]

The only one capable if controlling vid is TK and that required godhood to achieve

[modest coyote]

He probably did but idk if it’s confirmable

[pastel timber]

im gonna go put osme on

[modest coyote]

TK doesn’t control the entire void just a small part of it

Void is wayy bigger than just the shades

[twilit current]

Lore accurate Hornet: Hornet does crazy death defying feats and slays gods
Hornet in my copy of silksong: Dies to ants and simple lava parkour

[terse wadi]

only what's in its vicinity imo

You can't controll the whole ocean at once even if you could control the ocean, it's too massive

[modest coyote]

Just because you have a solar panel doesn’t mean you have the power of the sun

[pastel timber]

not even that, it has to slash away the void tentacles right next to it

[modest coyote]

We know canonically void doesn’t have a single consciousness

[pastel timber]

i always figured the shade lord was just all the siblings shades unified

[terse wadi]

It's void given focus

[light saddle]

Hm. Do void tendrils still lash out at us after we acquire voidheart?

[modest coyote]

Void Is not a higher being or subservient to one- its just a thing

[pastel timber]

they dont, at all

[median forge]

Nope

[real rapids]

So uh, I'm at the beginning of Act 3....is the Abyss the Void?

[zinc pivot]

I guess the knight cant control void that is already in motion

[modest coyote]

Yeah

[terse wadi]

I always interpreted it as the faster course of action to save hornet since TK had to physically get there

[pastel timber]

yeah but the sister of the void ending implies that the shade lord specifically is made up of the siblings shades, focused sure, but its that specific part of the void focused

[real rapids]

Well shit

[zinc pivot]

But the moment he arrives all the void calmed

[modest coyote]

Ok say I am the king of a country

[real rapids]

Also why tf is her name Hornet

[modest coyote]

Does this mean all of my subjects pay their taxes?

Does this mean no one ever disobeys me?

[pastel timber]

daughter of three queens 🗣️ 🔥

[zinc pivot]

Maybe something to do with how she lived with the bees

[modest coyote]

People are more likely to follow the law when I am in their presence

[real rapids]

Isn't she from Deepnest, the land of the spiders?

[median forge]

She was raised by queen vespa, herrah went to sleep shortly after hornets birth so Ms bee queen prolly gave her that

[light saddle]

I have no idea why TK would have to cut the void tendrils going after Hornet, then. Maybe TK is chill, but for everyone else it’s the same-old-same-old?

[pastel timber]

void tendrils like to misbehave until the god of void comes to tell them off </3

[median forge]

More like trained actaully

[modest coyote]

Shade Lord is not the god of void

[terse wadi]

It doesn't imply that at all it implies he holds dominion over them with voidheart SoV simply implies that either DNM or ETV Knight came to save Hornet

[zinc pivot]

Hes a god of void

[real rapids]

Is the Void an evil force

[modest coyote]

Shade Lord is the Duke of voidingpolitan area

[zinc pivot]

Not the one though

[pastel timber]

we just dont actually know the nature of void like, at all, everyone in game says its this force of entropy and oblivion but things can clearly live inside it, we have no idea what it really is

[modest coyote]

No it is just a force

[twilit current]

Also I completely forgot Hornet is a hunter, so maybe she hunts stuff in greenpath in her free time idk

[terse wadi]

no

[real rapids]

So it's just a chaotic neutral force

[zinc pivot]

Its like force of nature, it cares for nothing

[real rapids]

Then what about the Vessels

[zinc pivot]

They are void beings

[modest coyote]

The famously mostly thoughtless ones

[pastel timber]

the vessels are supposed to care for nothing but we know theyre not actually hollow

[terse wadi]

It's reactionary and typically leaves well enough alone if not bothered, but it is dangerous to 99% of creatures

[modest coyote]

Plutonium is also morally neutral and dangerous to most people

[pastel timber]

void wants to eat soul
living things are made of soul
dont put living things near the void

[real rapids]

Aren't the failed Vessels the ones that can actually feel emotions

[modest coyote]

Big difference between 0.1 and 1000

[zinc pivot]

Funny thing all vessels fail

[pastel timber]

they all can, none of them are actually hollow

[terse wadi]

They all can

[twilit current]

Funny rhing about that

[terse wadi]

The concept of a pure vessel is a fallacy

[pastel timber]

for a game called hollow knight theres not a single hollow knight

[modest coyote]

Wrong the boss fight is goated

[real rapids]

So a Pure Vessel is basically impossible no matter what the Pale King tried

[twilit current]

Seeing the ending was so cathartic because it's such direct confirmation that the vessels were, in fact, not hollow

[light saddle]

Yeeeah, SS pretty much obliterated most knowledge of how it functions in HK

[pastel timber]

maybe hegemol was the true hollow knight

[terse wadi]

I said A not the

[real rapids]

And the Pure Vessel we see in Pantheon is just a dream scenario?

[zinc pivot]

Pale King really thought the power of the void is in nothingness, so thats why hes obsessed with purity

[pastel timber]

i think that was the point in the end, hornet talks about how stupid youd have to be to try and control it, maybe we are just mean to be wrong about this eldritch substance, we dont know any more than the characters

[zinc pivot]

Perhaps thats just what pale beings think about purity

[real rapids]

Are there any other kingdoms besides Hallownest and Pharloom that we know of

[modest coyote]

I mean I would be pretty stupid to try touch a block of plutonium

[median forge]

So pale king being a loving father wasn't the cause of pure vessel getting emotions, it was just there in the first place

[zinc pivot]

Many
The cradle even gives 3 names

[terse wadi]

PV is just juiced up PoP THK pre how we see it in HK and SS and DNM endings this is what it looked like pre infection

[pastel timber]

a block of plutonium that wants to eat you no less

[real rapids]

Will we get to explore one in the next game ZOTEBOAT

[pastel timber]

it certainly didnt help

[median forge]

That's kinda funny

[zinc pivot]

Nah its Pablo

[modest coyote]

The issue with pale king is he loved too much

He was too good for the world

[terse wadi]

Ngl, even if it were possible to have a pure vessel, you'd have to sit it in a dark room from birth then dump it in the black egg when it's time

[real rapids]

Then what about the Knight

[median forge]

Let's not forget he threw out like a bajillion other siblings

[zinc pivot]

Hard to be cold with your own flesh and what ever he bleeds

[maiden meteor]

I think PoP scene just shows that THK wasn’t truly hollow. He would likely fail anyway

[modest coyote]

Ok and?

[pastel timber]

and then you cant really train it to fight and subdue the radiance

[real rapids]

Where did the Knight even come from

[terse wadi]

Excacyly

[pastel timber]

yeah that scene was the damning piece of evidence that gets shown to us

[modest coyote]

Melbourne

[zinc pivot]

We dunno where the knight has been

[real rapids]

Disgusting

[zinc pivot]

He did acquire a nail made of pale ore

[modest coyote]

Fuck you

[pastel timber]

it somehow escaped the abyss and then went on a wander and then came back

[light saddle]

That’s generous, imo. I just took it as a lack of continuity

[median forge]

So he was not "too good for the world" smh

[terse wadi]

Hornet calls TK a ghost because it's unclear why it left in the firstplace

[real rapids]

But are they a failed Vessel

[maiden meteor]

yeah

[modest coyote]

Hornet calls TK a ghost cause it’s a being inhabiting a corpse

[terse wadi]

It was called back by Rads screen instinctually

[pastel timber]

team cherry are the biggest hollow knight fans, they have all their lore in a big bible, if it feels like a continuity error we're just wrong

[terse warren]

The abyss has multiple exists

[terse wadi]

That is true but the reason is it's a ghost of a dead kingdom and shouldn't exist

[maiden meteor]

Voidheart “bends void to bearer’s will”, implying Knight has that will

[light saddle]

Or because it’s a remnant of a long dead kingdom. “Ghost of Hallownest”

[real rapids]

Also WHAT ABOIT ZOTE

[zinc pivot]

The actions throughout the game show the knight cares

[modest coyote]

No it’s a ghost because it died at birth

Like all the vessels

[pastel timber]

zote is just a guy

[terse warren]

No, continuity errors can still happen

[real rapids]

WHAT IS HEEEE

[zinc pivot]

Knight save grubs, give flowers, assist suicide, enjoy the view with a dying oldman

[pastel timber]

for the biggest piece of the story though?? youd think theyd have that under wraps

[maiden meteor]

An intruder amongst Gods

[modest coyote]

The player does that not the night

[terse wadi]

It has nothing to do with that, we all know that Hornet knows that, utterly pointless to mention unless another reason is the case and it is

[pastel timber]

hes literally just a guy

[median forge]

He's just some bug 🧍‍♂️

[olive glen]

#sk-lore should just be called #hk-lore2

[terse wadi]

Yeah, we should probably move on

[modest coyote]

zote is from shellwood

[zinc pivot]

This is not deltarune for that argument to work

[median forge]

Shhh discussing hk lore is important for SS lore

[maiden meteor]

Silksong lore protocol initiated

[terse wadi]

Nah, he probably bullshitted that name or it's a reference from Team cherry because he said it

[maiden meteor]

How do you think Weavers recorded void tendrils

[modest coyote]

My point is the emotion YOU feel is not indicative of the knight feeling that

[pastel timber]

this channel has been stuck in a circle of "what the fuck is the void" for a good while now

[light saddle]

Or they could have made changes since HK and not have given much thought to it.

No matter how you slice it, saying “unites the void under one Will”, and then showing that the void is not, in fact, united under one will, is definitely weird.

[terse warren]

Yeah you'd think so but considering the whole premise of this story is based off of a retcon I guess not

In HK Void Heart made it so the Void was unified as in the Knight was the whole Void, not that it had to give orders to it, but in Silksong we see it has to attack void tendrils???

[modest coyote]

I mean I view it as a “he united the void for a moment to defeat their opp and has since then fucked off to a lil shade region•

[olive glen]

Void is just oil, you guys got it?

[pastel timber]

the whole premise is a retcon?

[modest coyote]

If I am the king of a region this means everyone in the kingdom knows my orders? Knows all my laws ?

[terse warren]

Herrah being a Weaver and thus Hornet being a Weaver

[median forge]

Maybe it was like, alien hand syndrome 🧍‍♂️

[light saddle]

If that were the case, there should be no reason why shades and tendrils are passive to us any other moment than when we’re facing the Radiance

[pastel timber]

ohh right i remember you saying that earlier, yeah fair enough

[zinc pivot]

Because it wouldn’t be as impactful as the tendril merely stops at their presence

[maiden meteor]

Controlling 100% of the void that probably spans entire world would be a bit too much power imo

[terse warren]

TK is not the king of the Void, TK IS the Void

[modest coyote]

Certainly if you yourself are near the king you would bow even if otherwise you are a thief

[terse warren]

So it's fine to mess up continuity because of Hype moment and Aura?

[median forge]

So you're saying the knight wanted to aura farm 😭

[modest coyote]

TK Has never been “the void”

[terse wadi]

okay, but if you could control the whole ocean, could you do it all at once? no, you could only do it around you but you could do it anywhere the ocean is, that's my logic anyway can't mess with the void 300 miles away

[light saddle]

Sure. But the Voidheart description doesn’t make it sound like it’s merely bowing to its king. It just says the Void is united under the bearer’s will

[terse warren]

It has been controlling the void like we do limbs. By all intents and purposes, the Knight was the Void itself unified under one entity

[zinc pivot]

I think its more of the knight thinking less of commanding them to stop
And more of them thinking about protecting his sister

[pure belfry]

Okay shit area with annoying enemies and boss, but is there a lore reason why you don't get silk from the enemies? Did Wisp Thicket avoid the Haunting somehow?

[modest coyote]

I am the ruler of north and south Egypt having united them- this means everyone obeys my orders all the time?

[pastel timber]

"unifies the void under the bearer's will"

[light saddle]

Could you do it all at once? Sure, I don’t see why not.

I agree though that seems to be what they’re doing with it now, though.

[pastel timber]

probably burned it with the fire, i think it says in the hunters journal thats what they do with it

[modest coyote]

Wait till you learn what the pharaoh’s crown represents

[terse wadi]

I'd just say they're delulu

[maiden meteor]

considering they turn into wisps after you kill Father I’d imagine they’re not physical

like ghosts

[terse warren]

"Unified under the bearer's will" doesn't mean "you can give orders to the void" it means that the Void is UNITED as one single thing, and TK itself is made of Void, therefore TK is the Void

[zinc pivot]

Nah they fucking immolate themselves

[modest coyote]

I disagree with that

[terse warren]

You disagree with grammar and definitions

[modest coyote]

I can unify Italy but this doesn’t mean I control every Italian at once

[maiden meteor]

“unites void under bearers will” not “unifies bearer and void”

[median forge]

They make themselves spontaneously combust by putting a match stick up their ass

[light saddle]

The void is a substance, not a country. If I say whipped cream is united under my will, I see no reason why the whipped cream located in north or south Egypt shouldn’t be under my command

[terse warren]

Unify is clearly meant in a different way

[maiden meteor]

Knight is still own entity and so is void

[terse warren]

The Knight is literally made of Void

[modest coyote]

It unifies its thoughts

[modest coyote]

The unifier of Italy was made of Italians

[median forge]

These are some funny fucking analogies

[olive glen]

I mean you can get silk from creatures not afflicted by the haunting, I just don't think the wisps are alive for long enough. The lanterns are basically just mob spawners from Minecraft lol

[terse warren]

No, it unifies the Void itself

[terse wadi]

based on physics and perception, it'd be impossible, and it's not like HK gods are Omnipotent, they have limits

[maiden meteor]

you forget a little part that is PK/WL soul

[modest coyote]

And Italy was unified itself

[terse warren]

We already said this is a flawed example

[maiden meteor]

thing that gives knight mind

[terse warren]

The void already has a mind, it chooses to take the form of void tendrils and it spoke to the guy in the lighthouse

[pure belfry]

but there are actual bugs in thicket. I'm not talking about the wisps but those

[modest coyote]

Basically this is the void

[pastel timber]

they burned the silk with the fire they worship so it couldnt haunt them

[modest coyote]

Pre knight

[terse warren]

Do you know what a conversation is?

[terse wadi]

They're just delulu imo

[modest coyote]

The wisp thicket religion is post citadel I think

[terse warren]

Because it looks to me like you think it means "I say this thing and I'll say it over and over, disregarding what other people say"

[light saddle]

Impossible? Not at all. If one HB can create/give sentience to an entire race of people, I see no reason at all why a HB couldn’t control the void. And really, physics should hardly matter in a fantasy bug game

[modest coyote]

Or post GMS making weavers atleast

[olive glen]

Oh them, I never really paid much attention to them, uhhh idk but they do all despawn after you beat boss so maybe they aren't real or something idk

[modest coyote]

Those bugs are the farmers in gremoor (same type of guys)

[pure belfry]

That makes sense. I think someone brought up it says that in the Journal

[zinc pivot]

You mean sinners road

[terse warren]

Also Lord of Shades as a higher being is clearly quite different in nature from any other higher being

[olive glen]

Oh huh I didn't know that

[modest coyote]

GMS gave sentience to the weavers that doesn’t mean the weavers obeyed her

[olive glen]

But you still get silk from non-haunted creatures so idk

[modest coyote]

I don’t think being a higher being means you have omnipresent control

[pastel timber]

silk is a form of soul hornet probably takes their soul like the knight does given she has the same divine shell then weaves it into silk herself

[zinc pivot]

So yeah the Knight gotta be actively commanding the void

Else they wont stop

[modest coyote]

Cause silk is a form of soul that the weavers can weave

[terse warren]

It doesn't, but as I said, Lord of Shades is clearly different

[modest coyote]

He’s the Lord of shades not Lord of void

[terse warren]

Except it controlled it quite passively in HK 1, with the Void Tendrils not even appearing after you get Void Heart

[olive glen]

Oh okay, I guess they don't have soul or something due to the fire I guess

[terse warren]

Lord of Shades is just a name not what they actually do

[median forge]

Maybe lord of shades was aura farming for the moment

[pastel timber]

they do seem to appear and disappear in bursts of flames they might just be made of fire

[snow cedar]

Perhaps collection of soul from the enemies combined with the self-produced silk

[modest coyote]

Honestly the most likely reason

[olive glen]

Yeah

[zinc pivot]

If they dont say anything we really cant tell

[modest coyote]

Also consider that TK had to travel all the way from hollownest to pharloom

I doubt it was instant

[zinc pivot]

Void teleport bull shit maybe

[modest coyote]

Ok so why don’t they just teleport to hornet in the first place

[snow cedar]

Which takes time

[terse wadi]

I'd say that's wholly different to moving an entire oceans worth of liquid all at once. physics aside it's perception that's the issue you'd basically have to feel and control every last drop which you need to have the mental capacity to grasp, it's not like VH is a void magnet, and it "unifies the void under the bearerers will" which to me, says the will needs to be exercised and it's not a passive effect at least when it comes actively controlling it, the passive effect seems to only be a lack of hostility to the bearer

[light saddle]

Not inherently. But I’d say omnipresent control of a substance isn’t out of scope, like with Rad and the infection.

[terse wadi]

agreed

[modest coyote]

Ok but that’s not radiance being omnipresent

[terse wadi]

I'd argue that's different by virtue of it being Rad's creation

[modest coyote]

Gms also does silk stuff but she’s not omnipresent

It’s just a mind virus

[flint wadi]

i mean now that SS is a thing clearly void heart isnt making void obey the knight in every single corner of the world

[light saddle]

Ehhh. Well for one, she is bound to THK still. And for two, we do still hear her cry coming from Broken Vessel. So, if she were freed, she very well could be omnipresent regarding the infection.

[modest coyote]

Maybe it is but even so I doubt the knight is thinking “yes let me consider some kingdom in the middle of fucking nowhere”

[flint wadi]

is it a retcon? yeah, does it matter, idk, does it?

[terse wadi]

it isn't but imo it's too large a concept based on how large it appears to be to controll it all at once at least unless TK is physically there

[modest coyote]

Like I highly doubt the knight was thinking about pharloom at all

[terse wadi]

Probably not, but lore is to figure things out and that's what we're trying to do

[modest coyote]

Only once the battle happens they’re like “yo what’s happening here”

[pastel timber]

yeah it probably was originally intended that way but as team cherry decided to expand the world they maybe did do a retcon to alter the meaning of voidhearts description, i personally like to think it means the knight has unified all of siblings under it and they were focused into the being that is the shade lord, but clearly its so unknown to us that we cant tell for sure

[olive glen]

I think thats more just apart of the magic they get for praying to the flame, I think it could be like a deal where they sold their souls and they get protection from the Haunting + fire powers and once their god is killed they would rather die then fall to the curse I guess (or maybe they aren't doing it willingly and die due to a lack of sould or something idk)

[modest coyote]

I can unify Italy and not all Italians

GMS is Lord of silk

[flint wadi]

yeah and shades arent exactly JUST void

[terse wadi]

I think we're at an impass ngl we need more info

[modest coyote]

Does she control every silk being all the time?

[terse wadi]

Not in the slightlest

[lapis geode]

Void is just oil.
It's dark, cause chaos wherever it soiled, it's vast as hell, and make people go corrupt

[modest coyote]

Also made of dead things

[terse wadi]

ah yes dead children oil instead of dinos

[pure belfry]

Omg Team Cherry are geniuses lol

[terse wadi]

They;re either geniuses or we;re bufffoons ngl

[lapis geode]

I just talk shit and it turns out to be true😭

[modest coyote]

Ancient civilisation is just Saudi aramco

[light saddle]

I don’t think it’s all that different. We’ve seen — or at least heard — of Higher Beings achieving such great feats. If one could control the void in such a way, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least. I think the real question isn’t “could TK control an ocean of void?”, but rather, ”Why would it even need to?”

I mean practically, there can’t be many reasons why that’d be necessary except arguably to fight Radiance.

[modest coyote]

Just cause the knight CAN THINK doesn’t mean it spends all day thinking

[lapis geode]

So it chill most of the time

[modest coyote]

Imagine controlling an entire ocean u gotta be thinking about where the waves are going and shit

The knight is 100% chilling until something needs them

[terse wadi]

Yeah that's a fair accessment, it's not really a necessity and imo it's an active action the void does whatever it wants unless TK exercises its will

[modest coyote]

I really doubt the knight is thinking about “uh yeah the pharloom quadrant I wonder what those void waves are doing”

[light saddle]

Agreed

[modest coyote]

TK is just chilling until it hears some commotion and decides to intervene

It’s not like TK was IN PHARLOOM

TK is probably in hallownest who knows how far away

[molten parcel]

I don't think the knight has 100% control over SL

[pure belfry]

if you're all talking about shade and void I am mildly curious about your thoughts on shades being stated to be a "stain of regret" basically. is void a manifestation of the regrets of dead bugs which is why it concentrates beneath kingdoms or civilizatons?

[terse wadi]

I don't think the void being attacked by TK is a retcon of voidheart, I think TK chose to attack it over exercising its will why we'll never know but I presume it was faster as TK had just arrived in Pharlooms void

[modest coyote]

I think so

[modest coyote]

I mean TK is just aurafarmkng

[molten parcel]

For what the bestiary says every kingdom seems to have a abyss

[light saddle]

It might be an allusion to their making. The WL does say she feels shame for her part in the vessel project

[modest coyote]

Let’s be so fr

[zinc pivot]

The thint is the civilization WORSHIPS the void

[terse wadi]

That'd be funny

[zinc pivot]

So void must’ve been there before

[terse wadi]

Void in Pharloom imo, means it's literally everywhere, deep down somewhere

[molten parcel]

Hornet says something about that no matter where she goes if she goes deep enough she Will find the void

[pastel timber]

hallownest: jiji states the weight of regrets (the weight of the dead) are a burden the kingdom cannot bear much longer
pharloom: the dead are stated to be the literal foundation of the kingdom, see the marrow and bonebottom
similarly void haunts pharloom and the weight of its use is going to bring the kingdom crumbling down, whereas the use of void in pharloom will save it from the haunting as serve as the foundational moment from which a new pharloom can arise

[light saddle]

Yeah, that’s pretty much exactly where I’m at. I just assumed TC thought it would look cool to cut the tendrils instead of just melting them

[terse wadi]

It's just a giant ocean under all land

[zinc pivot]

Theres also the glooms
What the hell are those

[terse wadi]

yeah

[flint wadi]

abyss fauna

[molten parcel]

Remember the diving bell was already there, they already used it, they already went into the abyss before

[zinc pivot]

Trypophobia stuff

[flint wadi]

probably pharloom abyss specific cause we dont see them in hallownest

[pure belfry]

intentional or not by TC, this is such a cool connection

[pastel timber]

pale king probably extincted them cause they were ugly and dangerous and way too close to white palace

[zinc pivot]

They also can safely have void in their body

[terse wadi]

The oceans fauna is different in different parts, pretty similar

[zinc pivot]

Whacky shit

[molten parcel]

Pharloom abyss was always there, the shamans just opened a portal to the cradle so it takes GMS

[terse wadi]

She'd be dead too if not for Lace's intervention

But then Hornet would have also died

[zinc pivot]

Eitherway Lacenet is doomed

[pastel timber]

hallownest and pharloom have so many parallels its really cool to think about them all

[molten parcel]

Why do people think hornet is void i wonder

[terse wadi]

Copium mostly

[zinc pivot]

Because black body and black eyes

[pastel timber]

they didnt think about it hard enough

[zinc pivot]

Basically a similar appearance to the vessels

[terse wadi]

And for some reason some people think all of PK's children have to be void

[modest coyote]

A bit stupid is zote void too

[zinc pivot]

Remember when matpat said Pale King attempted to reborn through vessel

Fun stuff

[terse wadi]

The superficial appearance of their bodies is just Wyrm dna they both share PK as a parent has nothing to do with void

[modest coyote]

Is elder bug void? Is the great garmond void?

[pure belfry]

absolutely but I moreso meant the connection between the sign in The Marrow "the shells of those who gave their lives to hold our kingdom's weight" and the void.

[pastel timber]

PK = dead
dead is the opposite of alive
alive = soul
the opposite of soul = void
therefore PK = void
therefore all of his kids inherit his voidiness

[modest coyote]

Most bugs in real life have black limbs

🐞 void being

🐜 void

[molten parcel]

PK died?

I though PK jus dipped

[modest coyote]

Yep, lung cancer

[spare pendant]

sigh... every day i find a new line of dialogue where hornet is explicitly referred to as a pale being

[pastel timber]

one thing i found interesting
charms are said to be the dying wishes of a bug
there are no charms in pharloom
capitalism and theocracy canonically sap the hopes and dreams out of bugs

[spare pendant]

unclear but we see what appears to be his corpse

[terse wadi]

It's possible he's done it before, but likely not as it would undercut the story and his motivations

[pastel timber]

i only just learned of the dialogue from zi if you refuse her quest look at that one

[modest coyote]

No we literally see bugs with many dying wishes in pharloom

[terse wadi]

That's only one method and it's a theory

[spare pendant]

ooo noted, i just learned of gurr's needolin dialogue

[spare pendant]

it's stated by salubra*

but yes it's only one method

[modest coyote]

Oh so salubra knows everything?

[spare pendant]

salubra is the charm expert lol

[modest coyote]

Salubra is just 1 person no one made her the queen of charms

[pastel timber]

she looks very wise to me

[molten parcel]

Mr mushrooms left pharloom, meaning next Game is gonna be another kingdom

[terse wadi]

Gay men are indeed very wise

[pastel timber]

steel city calling it

[spare pendant]

i thought salubra was a woman

[modest coyote]

I don’t think every charm is LITERALLY a dying wish

[terse wadi]

City of steel is the sharpe dlc imo

[modest coyote]

Or that every dying wish produces a charm

[spare pendant]

we might not get a next game, but we are getting more content

[pastel timber]

kingsoul for one

[modest coyote]

We see many wishes in pharloom!

[molten parcel]

How come mr mushroom can handle the light infection and the GMS silk

[terse wadi]

Not every, there's several methods

[modest coyote]

We see the fucking wish boards

[pastel timber]

"we were making a sharpe dlc but it got too big"

[terse wadi]

I think Mr Mushroom is a transidental force that exists to witness the passing of an age

[spare pendant]

nailmasters glory seemingly came from the pride and respect of the nailmasters in their hayday

[terse wadi]

I think he'd be liable to sue at that point, the backer I mean

[molten parcel]

I was going to Say hk3 might be with quirrel.
But....

[pastel timber]

hes regarded as some sort of omen, a herald of a new age, with indesciperhable wisdom

[spare pendant]

transcendental is presumptuous but he is clearly a higher being of sorts

[molten parcel]

Funny how hornet somehow knows him and calls him the herald or something

[pastel timber]

hk3: under the sea

[spare pendant]

idk a third game dedicated to his oc is a lot lol

[terse wadi]

idk if he's a HB but he's definantly no mortal creature

[terse wadi]

Okay but he waited 7 years for this

[molten parcel]

He is a Herald

Mr mushroom can literally fly, that guy aint morta

[terse wadi]

I guess only he would know if he'd be willing to wait 14 but I certainly wouldn't

[pure belfry]

The idea of another HK game in another decade or so is unfathomable to me. The amount of effort poured into this one seems like it was all of TC's best ideas put into one game(+future dlc).

Idk what ideas they could even have to succeed Silksong. It's possible since they've said themselves they do not have any creative burnout but SS is a lot to live up to.

[spare pendant]

aspids:

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-mushroom-hollow-knight-gif-26030964

[terse wadi]

what you talking about all mushrooms can do that

[molten parcel]

Why are Mr mushroom eyes like that, like spiral

[pastel timber]

considering that they turned around and went "sorry it took so long we were having a blast and we have no intentions of stopping soon DLCs next!" they have a ton left up their sleeve that they wanna have fun making

[pastel timber]

oh youre so right its similar to the mask makers

[spare pendant]

pencil animation i think, idk why though

[pure belfry]

either Ari or William also said they could've worked on it for like 15 years

[terse wadi]

They did say they have no creative burn out, money is no longer a factor, they're just having fun and in fact planned to continue SS' development but decided to finally release it and make tons of dlc

[spare pendant]

i know it won't happen but i hope we get to explore old pharloom

[pastel timber]

i really hope they get all their ideas out with this franchise, they love it, we love it, its like the coolest thing ever keep going team cherry

[modest coyote]

Give us knight dlc

[molten parcel]

I really hope if we get a DLC we get SOMETHING, ANYTHING about puré vessel VS hornet fight

[modest coyote]

[pastel timber]

thatd be a huge dlc itd be so cool

[terse wadi]

To show they're dead and cold

[molten parcel]

I don't think puré vessel died there

[terse wadi]

deadass want that

[manic pewter]

in my mind the swirly eyes has always shown having an excess of knowledge

[pure belfry]

there's a lot of dlc potential with the elegy of the deep

[molten parcel]

On true ending we see all the vessels in shades lord and Pure vessel isnt there

[terse wadi]

Coral gorge Ant kingdom etc

[terse wadi]

what are you on about

[pastel timber]

do any characters besides mr mushroom and the two mask makers have it

[spare pendant]

no, we don't see all shades

we see the knight and various shades but nothing indicates it's all of them

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/pure-vessel-hollow-knight-gif-8691405304708562462

[terse wadi]

ofc we don't see all the shades there's like 80 billion of them they just drew some and called it a day

[molten parcel]

Still we have to get an answer of that fight

[pastel timber]

i think thats implied given the scale of it

[spare pendant]

it's implied they're all/mostly there yeah but the hollow knight could just be offscreen, or even still in its body

[manic pewter]

Yeah lol you cannot see the shapes of most

[molten parcel]

I doubt they just gonna Say
"Ah yeah, pure vessel died" and nothing else.

[pastel timber]

oh yeah that i agree with

[molten parcel]

I mean puré vessel is a special type of shade tbf

[terse wadi]

This is SS and PV isn't tangibly important to its story, only TK and VH are so there was no reason to draw it in particular, particularlly because it's meant to show scale, PV's shade would stick out like a sore thumb

[pastel timber]

im still of the headcanon that the "shade lord" is the unification of all of the shades into a single focussed being, and that scene is the knight reaching out to hornet to save her, and to give her a familiar face while it does

[molten parcel]

I still think that fight must have annanswer

They can't just Say "oh yeah hornet won"
And call it a day

[pastel timber]

i bet they were setting it up for the hornet dlc as a first fight for the epilogue but then forgot about it as that dlc became silksong

[molten parcel]

Also why the hell did they fight, pure vessel was uninfected

[terse wadi]

The flashes of SL means one of two things, either it's to imply that SoV can be after either DNM or ETV or that there is waining focus in TK at this moment

[twilit current]

My own preferred canon: Dream no more is my canon and the flashback showing all the shades and the shade lord is meant to let both endings be canon in silksong
Probably the actual canon: Embrace the void is canon, THK is still alive, all the shades and shade lord are two different manifestations of the same thing

[terse wadi]

This is likely the case

[pastel timber]

we dont actually know that they did, just that hornet went into battle stance upon seeing a monster lumber out of the temple, and thk braced for impact

[molten parcel]

I though since hornet was the sister of the vessels she could somehow see SL true form or something

[pastel timber]

im agreed on the second half but im biased to p5 ending

[twilit current]

I just really like the dream no more ending so it's my canon lol

[molten parcel]

What

[terse wadi]

Maybe, but it's either metaphorical or literal, either way any ending with VH and radiance dead is canon to SoV

[pastel timber]

like i think shade lord is the collection of all of the siblings

[spare pendant]

again, to your second point, every ending is canon.

[molten parcel]

Aint embrace the void literally prooven canon by SS true ending

[twilit current]

That's what I mean by my canon vs probably actual canon

[terse wadi]

They are but SoV is specifically either and or DNM or ETV because TK has VH

[twilit current]

Embrace the void explains the flashback sequences the best, but the way the flashbacks are done are ambiguous enough that you can still interpret dream no more as a canon ending if you want to

[molten parcel]

I mean. The ending where hornet becomes a dreamer CANT be canon

[terse wadi]

I believe that's the intent yeah

TC likes things being open ended

[pastel timber]

to hollow knight sure but like, sealed siblings clearly cannot be canon to silksong

[twilit current]

Which I like because I vastly prefer dream no more to embrace the void

[terse wadi]

Eh, I think it can to Weaver queen

[pastel timber]

how did she get out of the temple then

[twilit current]

But I also don't mind embrace the void being the canon ending in the HK + SS combined universe

[terse wadi]

fym how the citadel broke the seal, it's already established they can do that

[spare pendant]

yeah ofc but silksong doesn't have to happen in every reality, there isn't "one canon" like they were implying

[molten parcel]

Hornet mentions she knows gods can die.

Radiance only dies in DNM and ETV

[pastel timber]

a seal of binding yeah, not a dreamer seal, thats a whole different seal

[spare pendant]

pale king died

[terse wadi]

she could also suspect PK died

[twilit current]

I'm referring to the combined HK + SS canon in this case, any ending is canon if it's just HK

[molten parcel]

Pale king was a GOD?
I though he was just a higher being, not a GOD

[pastel timber]

plus hornet says she killed a bunch of citadel bugs before they got her, if she was locked in the temple she'd be severely weakened, comatose, she couldnt kill one

[terse wadi]

Hornets seal on the cage wasn't a SoB that's a very specific seal

[terse wadi]

HB are gods

[twilit current]

I like the idea that Hornet slaughtered an army of citadel bugs before they finally got her

[terse wadi]

Likely

[pastel timber]

she outright says that

[twilit current]

It would be a bit unrealistic for like 5 guys to get her lol

[spare pendant]

"god" is kind of a meaningless term in hollow knight. it can mean either higher being or closer to just "powerful creature" (in godhome)

[twilit current]

Well yeah, I just like the idea, that's what I was saying

[pastel timber]

they lost a good 10-20 citadel bugs trying to capture each weaverspawn

[molten parcel]

How the hell can shades lord appear in every ending if knight dies or contains infection in most of them

[terse wadi]

Nah godhome doesn't count GS is delulu, well not not count more so she's wrong, but she does call special attention to actualy HB

[twilit current]

Imagining her mowing down wave after wave of choristors

[spark valve]

godseeker isn't even wrong she's just using a specialized definition

[pastel timber]

with nail 0 as well hornet is insane

[molten parcel]

Vengefly is fucking there

[spare pendant]

that's by far the most primary use the term in hk though

[twilit current]

Although then again one jailor bug was enough to capture her, so idk lol

[twilit current]

Lore accurate hornet would solo HHG and coral tower with nail 0

[spare pendant]

the only other time god is used that i can remember is one line of hornet's dialogue (there's probably more)

[pastel timber]

hornet (canon) and hornet (player character) are two totally different beings in terms of power level its insane

[molten parcel]

I doubt Sealed Siblings is canon because it means Radiance is still out there which is pretty much weird

[spare pendant]

nah hornet when we play her is canonically weakened

[twilit current]

I love meming about lore accurate character vs player character in these kinds of games

[terse wadi]

The only endings relevent to Sister of void is DNM and ETV, WQ and TC have not been discredited and are endings so any other SS endings can result as the other HK endings that don't require TK

[spare pendant]

not any different from the hollow knight ending

[pastel timber]

they made bad players diegetic </3

[twilit current]

It's so funny to be bad at the game while controlling this person who's supposed to be really powerful and capable

[pastel timber]

"i have no intention of losing my life" dies 57 times

[twilit current]

Me when my hornet dies to lava

[molten parcel]

If hornet became a dreamer which cannot he waken up if theres no dream nail, how is she on SS

[spare pendant]

"I beat the unraveled first try!" I say, controlling a character who canonically beat lost lace first try

[terse wadi]

Doesn't hornet technically "it's all a dream" cause she wakes up from a blackout, could be foresight ngl

[terse wadi]

Seal breaker bugs

[pastel timber]

i think not every ending is canon to silksong because team cherry said "every ending is canon" 8 years ago before godmaster released and way before silksong was its own game they probably changed their minds since then ngl

[twilit current]

Every instance of us dying is just Hornet having nightmares

[terse wadi]

One of these days people will figure out they exist

[molten parcel]

What if they changed their mind in those 8 years?

[spare pendant]

nothing contradicts their statement and silksong builds on pre-established lore

[pastel timber]

yeah thats what i said

[molten parcel]

Radiance might be still out there in one ending

[spare pendant]

radiance isn't even a threat to other kingdoms

[terse wadi]

Yeah I think it's possible for Rad to be alive in WQ or TC

[molten parcel]

Wdym

[terse wadi]

Not really consequential

[twilit current]

Man I really hated that boss

[spare pendant]

she only cares about hallownest

[twilit current]

I have an entire tier just for that boss specifically

[terse wadi]

Lmao

[pastel timber]

shrodingers radiance she is both dead and alive until you start act 3

[terse wadi]

Lost Lace is just tacks and bait parries

[terse wadi]

Pretty much ngl

[molten parcel]

Well tbf it seems SOTV is the true ending, atleast to me it is

[twilit current]

I meant unraveled

Lost lace is great, loved that boss fight

[spare pendant]

there's just no evidence for there being any true ending

[molten parcel]

Theres a whole act 3 for the SOTV ending, why wouldnt it be the canon

[terse wadi]

It's the latest ending in the chronological timeline of the HK universe but the HK universe is already established to be made up of timelines

[spare pendant]

why would it be exclusively canon

[molten parcel]

Literally a whole act 3 with bunch of lore and the everbloom, i think its pretty much the ending thats gonna tie to future projects

[twilit current]

It's time for every ending to be canon to silksong too

[pastel timber]

i think in terms of "what ending is canon" theres 2 arguments
one set of people argue "any ending could be canon given these other endings"
the other argue "these endings have to be the 'true' storyline for the games continuity" (going off of sister of the void, assuming thats true ending)
fact of the matter is its a game, all of the endings happen, you can take whichever one you like most and run with it, but mainstream discussion is always going to look for the most satisfying ending to be the "true" one and that just ends up being a clash of phrasing

[terse wadi]

You could call SoV the "main timeline" if you want ig nothing to disprove it, but in the same vein it's not disproven that the other SS endings are seperate timelines

[molten parcel]

That means hornet can't appear in HK3

[spare pendant]

they have already made their stance clear on player agency, nothing suggests that they have changed that philosophy for silksong

[twilit current]

Then when we have a third game, we can have canon endings to HK and Silksong in the combined HK, Silksong and third game canon

[molten parcel]

What excuse would they make for hornet to get out of that state

Also in the root ending hornet straight up dies

[spare pendant]

HK3 isn't even a confirmed thing lol

[twilit current]

I have no clue what they would make HK3 based on, if they ever did it

[terse wadi]

TC can change their mind but there's nothing to say they have as of yet

[pastel timber]

it was really funny pre-silksong watching the "every ending is its own equally canon timeline" and "well this is the real one though right?" crowds bicker cause like one of you just doesnt get the other this is inconsequential

[twilit current]

I'm just excited for silksong DLC at the moment lol

[pastel timber]

im so hyped give me godhome now

[molten parcel]

SOTV leaves major questions to lore whats gonna happen with the void, whats gonna happen with plasmium, WHERE is the herald heading to

[twilit current]

7 years for silksong godhome

[spare pendant]

sisters of void does not have to occur in every possible reality

therefore, hk3 doesn't have to occur in every possible reality, either

[terse wadi]

I personally like all canon because it doesn't invalidate people's interpretations

[molten parcel]

The herald leaving pharloom already tells HK3 is possible

[terse wadi]

That's the neat part, none will likely ever be answeered

[molten parcel]

So hornet cant appear in HK3

[pastel timber]

i think at the point youre talking about "every possible reality" its a lot easier to just say "its a game, every ending happens, 'true' ending is meaningless"

[spare pendant]

we already know there are other kingdoms, this means nothing

[spare pendant]

that literally doesn't follow

[terse wadi]

He could just as easily appear in a non HK but TC game

[twilit current]

The true ending is the one you like the most

[pastel timber]

fearless fox whos hyped

[pastel timber]

the true ending is the friends we made along the way

[terse wadi]

Mr Mushroom feels like a TC stand in character that's hella meta

[pastel timber]

he definitely talks like that one team cherry twitter account that just spews nonsense

[twilit current]

What if I really just wanted embrace the void but for Hornet in Silksong - oh wait that's kinda the regular ending

[molten parcel]

Im just saying if another HK project comes out hornet can't appear if it's a sequel since in most endings she is totally trapped or dead

[spare pendant]

she can appear if it follows from sov or a dlc ending

[twilit current]

Hornet's UI transforming in the regular ending is so cool

[spare pendant]

alternatively we could see WQH

[drifting elbow]

I think HK 3 will be in a completely separate kingdom not related to either hallownest or pharloom. It might reference it but it might open to new possibilities lore wise. It might not mention or use void in the story, who knows

[molten parcel]

The herald endings shows "to be continued"

[twilit current]

HK3: Now in 3D

[spare pendant]

because we're getting dlc

[pastel timber]

thing is you can pick that weaver queen is your true ending for silksong, and say that if hornet appears again, team cherry is exploring the other possibility for the story, its entirely up to you what any of this means its a piece of art you can interpret it however you want

[terse wadi]

If they chose to have her appear, probably, but just like how SOV takes place after specifically DNM or ETV, Hornet appearing in HK3 could just follow SOV

But I doubt she would, I feel her narrative has ended

[molten parcel]

Oh god, not pantheons on pharloom please any dlc but not that

[spare pendant]

God's Glory dlc is soft confirmed

[pastel timber]

it is?

[terse wadi]

I think we only need a HoG equivilent for boss refights boss rush is wholly unneccessary

[spare pendant]

a hidden gamemode was datamined

[molten parcel]

Godseeker might aswell be dead or stuck in hallownest

[twilit current]

I'd absolutely love boss refights for silksong

[terse wadi]

Probably silksoul

[pastel timber]

oh they had a traitor lord flag left in there theyve got a lot of old defunct hk code i wouldnt trust it just yet

[molten parcel]

They gonna put double beastfly

[spare pendant]

no, it was called God's Glory

it also wasn't called Godhome

it was new without an icon

[twilit current]

We need double of all the best bossfights in the game

[pastel timber]

worst case scenario you use your memory song in bellhome and you just go into your memories to refight bosses, no new lore no nothing just straight refights

[terse wadi]

have you perhaps considered there's hornet dlc code left and forgotten in there

[modest coyote]

Elaborate

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[molten parcel]

Would the dlcs be active on act 2 or 3

[pastel timber]

wasnt "gods and glory" the name of the godmaster dlc?

[spare pendant]

don't see how that's relevant

[twilit current]

Double beastfly, double unraveled, double zongo, double bell eater

[spare pendant]

i think the dlc was Gods and Nightmares

[modest coyote]

Worst case from a lore perspective best case for a player perspective

[molten parcel]

The Alchemist

[terse wadi]

it's entirely possible it's remnent code and means absolutely nothing

[spare pendant]

remnant code of what

[pastel timber]

thats the soundtrack, nightmares was a separate dlc, grimm troupe

[terse wadi]

when it was hornet dlc

[spare pendant]

that doesn't answer the question

[molten parcel]

Aint Grimm dead

[pastel timber]

of the "gods and glory" dlc

[spare pendant]

possibly

[terse wadi]

It does, the code is from a long ass time ago and was never removed

[spare pendant]

the gamemode doesn't appear in hollow knight though

[spare pendant]

still not what I asked

[molten parcel]

The Grimm Troupe might appear on a DLC for act 3 since the kingdom is gonna die

[pastel timber]

godtuner is called something else in the code, godseeker mode is likely still called gods and glory internally and they just never changed it

[spare pendant]

it simply isn't.

[pastel timber]

no we save pharloom it lives

[molten parcel]

We also saved hallownest

[spare pendant]

no we didn't

hallownest is already dead

[terse wadi]

Grimm is just a phoenix with extra steps ngl

[pastel timber]

we saved like 3 people everyone else is dead 😭

[terse wadi]

Hallownest is already dead we just put it down for good

[molten parcel]

Good enough for me, elder Big alive

[pastel timber]

we stopped it from taking any new souls that wandered in

[molten parcel]

So Grimm cant appear

[spare pendant]

elderbug isn't even old enough to remember hallownest, he's a baby child

[molten parcel]

What

[terse wadi]

He literally can't even if it was dead

[molten parcel]

Wdym elder Big is not old

[spare pendant]

he's one of the youngest characters

[terse wadi]

He needs to be summoned

[spare pendant]

elderbug just has a short lifespan

[molten parcel]

Ive been lied

[modest coyote]

He’s called elder bug cause he’s young

[terse wadi]

Elderbug might be the oldest in dirtmouth maybe

[spare pendant]

he's called elderbug because he's at the end of his very short lifespan

[modest coyote]

Nope

[spare pendant]

sly is obviously older

[modest coyote]

Elderbug is the youngest person in dormouse

[terse wadi]

But he's def younger than all the big players

[terse wadi]

Bretta is younger

[molten parcel]

Well ig bretta, zote, sly, iselda, cornifer might just chill in dirthmouth

[modest coyote]

Sly and zote are 100% older than elderbug

[terse wadi]

Yeah probably

[molten parcel]

Zote is a vessel /j

[spare pendant]

iselda and cornifer are likely older as well

[terse wadi]

Zote is ALMIGHTY

[modest coyote]

Based on?

[spare pendant]

and bretta is likely not much younger than zote

[molten parcel]

GMS lucky zote wasnt on pharloom

[twilit current]

Zote is still yapping to Bretta in my dirtmouth

[spare pendant]

cornifer knows too much about cartography and has too much experience as a traveler to be very young

[terse wadi]

idk of the tangiblity of who's younger or older but Bretta seems young

[twilit current]

I'm never fighting him on the off chance I actually want to do p3 or p5 in the future, which is highly unlikely

[terse wadi]

Hollow victory

[molten parcel]

Elder Bug is Knight future self who came back to live a good life and give advice to his younger self /jjjj

[twilit current]

Well who knows

[spare pendant]

iselda mentions cornifer's long history of exploring

[twilit current]

Maybe if I'm masochistic enough to do p5, I might change my mind

[terse wadi]

Iselda used to be a warrior too

[molten parcel]

Pantheon of Pharloom when

[pastel timber]

Shakra is just iselda in disguise

[terse wadi]

Regular P5 isn't so bad

[pastel timber]

Waiting desperately for the mod to drop

[molten parcel]

[twilit current]

Idk about that, I couldn't even beat P2

And that's after playing silksong

[terse wadi]

Before we found Shakra's master I thought her master was Iselda ngl

[terse wadi]

so you have a skill issue, got it

[molten parcel]

Reminder cornifer somehow got across a shadow barrier

[twilit current]

Yup

[spare pendant]

no he didn't

[twilit current]

But more importantly I just don't find pantheons fun

[terse wadi]

He's got shade dash, didn't you know?

[spare pendant]

in fog canyon he explains he found another way around, which you can also find

[twilit current]

So maybe I might be capable enough to do it, but I'm not interested enough in them or have enough time to do them

[pastel timber]

They get so tiring after a while I don’t blame you

[molten parcel]

Nuh, he got shade dash

[ember river]

It's just way too long for me, and also having to do the dream bosses is pain

[molten parcel]

Cornifer is shades lord in disguise

[spare pendant]

true i hate dream bosses

[pastel timber]

Huge plus of silksong no dream bosses

[twilit current]

I didn't understand the hate for dream bosses until I went back to HK and tried fighting them again

[ember river]

I am not kidding when I say I struggle more with Markoth than NKG or PV

[twilit current]

They're so bad, why didn't I hate them my first playthrough

[terse wadi]

I did it to do everything and do all achievements but I still haven't done P5AB , fuck that

[terse wadi]

Aside fro no floor koth they're all piss easy

[twilit current]

Instead we get unraveled

[ember river]

They're spammy and floating around

[molten parcel]

Waiter waiter, one cogwork dance fight where green Prince also joins SO it's a 3v1 battle

[pastel timber]

I’m done with silksong im so tempted to go back to p5ab its all i have left to do

[ember river]

Hu is easy and galien can be actually fought but the rest are annoying as hell

[quick furnace]

Is it normal to ||die to moorwing for so many times||

[pastel timber]

Gpz, markoth, and collector, the big 3 that will fuck over any p5ab run

[spare pendant]

YES

[terse wadi]

Maybe one day, but that day is not today, P4AB is good enough for me

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[ember river]

They're not even hard, you can nuke them with spells, but having to fight them every try makes me extremely fatigued

[twilit current]

Absolute Peak Pantheon:
Lace, Widow, Phantom, Cogwork Dancers, Trobbio, First Sinner, Skarrsinger Karmelita, Lost Lace

[ember river]

Wait, people struggle with collector?

[terse wadi]

in P5AB

[pastel timber]

On all bindings, yes, when his summons take 2-3 hits to kill and you have 4hp

[muted rover]

Is Pure Vessel stronger than Post Act 3 Hornet?

[terse wadi]

You can't one shot the minions and in P5 it's the upgraded ones

[pastel timber]

Depends who’s got the controller

[ember river]

I don't think Karmelita, First Sinner and Lost Lace are going in the same pantheon as the rest

[ember river]

Oh shit on all bindings, yeah

[twilit current]

Probably not, but if I could create a peak pantheon this would be my selection

[terse wadi]

Lace 1 is probably in SS p1 as the 5th boss like hornet was

[spare pendant]

Actual peak pantheon:
Skarrgard, Beastfly, Sister Splinter, Great Conchflies, Broodmother, Unraveled, Zango, Nyleth

[muted rover]

I'm thinking that Pure Vessel in its prime is the strongest warrior in the world of hollow knight in nail combat, maybe

[ember river]

Imagine if the final boss is just "Very Lost and Confused Lace"

[twilit current]

I actually like sister splinter and great conchflies

[terse wadi]

that'd be of the p5

[ember river]

Yeah

[twilit current]

You need to make it even worse

[pastel timber]

Well we, the knight, beat the shit out of PV with everything tied behind our backs

[ember river]

But instead of "Absolute Radiance" it's just that

[terse wadi]

I do hope we get special versions or outright fights we don't get if there is a boss rush like the nail masters and sly

[molten parcel]

Possible Pantheon of Pharloom (if it exists) fights.
-Cogwork Dancer + Green Prince.

-Double Beastfly.

-Full fight against Bell eater without bell beast getting in.

-Yellow Trobbio Variant

[spare pendant]

this is actually the stupid contact damage pantheon, optionally add lugoli instead of skarrgard

[muted rover]

Why don't they do title cards anymore 🥀 🥀 🥀

They could have done it with Grand Mother Silk

[ember river]

I think Pure Vessel had more going on with all the soul and void attacks than the nail ones

Sly seems to be more capable with a nail than Pure Vessel

[terse wadi]

Knda was ngl

[pastel timber]

They’re saving it for a boss that deserves it

[terse wadi]

That too

[ember river]

It kinda was a title card, but not having a solid background isn't the same

[pastel timber]

They definitely just changed the title cards to not flashbang you

[twilit current]

NKG title card really threw me off, I wasn't expecting it

[molten parcel]

Btw, was the coral tower underwater?

[ember river]

The power it conveyed though

[muted rover]

Does Grand Mother Silk not deserve it because she's too easy?

[spare pendant]

all of karak was i think

[ember river]

And the fact that they only show up when you fight actual gods

[twilit current]

Absolute Grand Mother Silk

[pastel timber]

Yeah grand FRAUD silk 🗣️

[ember river]

Absolutely Lost Lace

[molten parcel]

Absolute Lost lace

[twilit current]

I'd unironically fight that, that would be a cool boss fight

[edgy barn]

No, you can see waterfalls in the background.

[quartz flicker]

https://fxtwitter.com/Honkadoi/status/1971729789951398142

square ❤️ (Guilt Trip 11/11) (@Honkadoi)

Don't ask why but when I played the game I was, for some reason, 100% convinced that it was going to be Zote in this cell

**💬 43 🔁 261 ❤️ 8.0K 👁️ 69.9K **

FxTwitter · Sep 27, 2025, 12:13 AM

[pastel timber]

Lost absolute radiance

[molten parcel]

GMS is SS equivalent of THK

[ember river]

Is Zote a hornet?

Not as Hornet, the character, a hornet as the bug

[molten parcel]

Hear me out.

Lost GMS

[twilit current]

I don't really see how we could get another version of Lace without it going into messed up modded territory, I felt like Lost Lace was about the most logical extent the Lace fight could go

[muted rover]

Is Radiance stronger than Grand Mother Silk?

I'm assuming she is

[molten parcel]

Yea

[edgy barn]

Same. It would also get a bit repetitive.

[ember river]

Kind of? We don't really see GMS do much at all

[pastel timber]

Yeah surely they do something else for an absrad style gigaboss

[terse warren]

We don't have much to compare at all

[muted rover]

yeah my bad

[ember river]

It was sort of a letdown for a higher being fight IMO, if not for the fact that the only 3 mask attack is in that fight

[terse warren]

Imo it should be prime Mother Silk

Since we only fight the version of her that has just woken up from millennias long slumber

[pastel timber]

Power scaling is kinda useless in this setting given the game design differences between the two games, there’s no direct translation between difficulty

[terse warren]

Lost Lace also deals 3 dmg in her White ball attack

[pastel timber]

Honestly that’s probably the direction to go, but I wonder if they even copy the godhome formula at all

[edgy barn]

One of her attacks deals 3 masks? I suppose I avoided it then.

[ember river]

Oh true, I think I got hit by that once though

[ember musk]

or well the theoretical version where she binds hornet

[ember river]

The spider web one?

It is very cinematic too

[terse warren]

It would be quite lame if we didn't get new versions of the final bosses

[ember musk]

fun fact you cant parry it lol only attack in the entire game that cant be parried

[pastel timber]

I am hoping for a bigger challenge myself

[ember river]

Hornet gets ensnared and a white silhouette of GMS extends her 8 arms and takes 3 masks

[ember river]

I don't think it's the only attack

Trobbio's fireworks can't be parried either

[edgy barn]

Yeah it never hit me.

[ember river]

Or Ass Jim's signature ass charge

[ember musk]

the round explosion or the pillars from the ground? because you can parry both

[terse warren]

GMS's fight was ultimately lame because TC decided to put the Pale Being fight as the final Boss of Act 2 when there's a whole ass 3rd act

[edgy barn]

GMS was one of three bosses I beat first try in this whole game.

[ember river]

You can parry the circular explosion?

[ember river]

Yep

[pastel timber]

It was a cinematic boss rather than a challenge boss which was an interesting choice but I know it made me search for a ‘true ending’ so maybe it worked

[ember musk]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1370151299416588368/1419322890289156197/tormented_trobbio_Trim.mp4?ex=68d89732&is=68d745b2&hm=99f509d18232c0b543ab2063d5a1c9213101db9de420fc8185fd1e976e2fd2f5& did this myself

[terse warren]

They haven't had an issue making tons of shit in this game hard as shit, but when it comes to the final boss they won't even do that...

[ember river]

Oh, like parry with the skill, I thought you meant with the nail

[ember musk]

oh nah lol my bad i should call it cross stitch but yea the gms web is the only attack you cant cross stitch

[twilit current]

I don't mind GMS being easy tbh, considering Lace 2 was a tough fight

[terse warren]

You would've most likely searched for one anyways

It's just very meh

[muted rover]

it was a letdown ngl to fight

base radiance was slightly/substantially more difficult

[terse warren]

That makes it even worse

The final boss should be the hardest challenge, not the boss before it

[twilit current]

Fair enough, I was personally fine with GMS being a nice break from Lace 2

[terse warren]

Tbf GMS is a THK equivalent

[ember river]

The Radiance was the final boss of the game though, it makes sense

[pastel timber]

I was gonna say so was thk but that fight had the theatrics going on that made it awesome, gms was just underwhelming

[ember musk]

lace 2 is a walk in the park after lost lace tbf

[muted rover]

yeah but both of them are higher beings so i would have expected more with GMS

[twilit current]

True lol

[ember river]

I'd put GMS on the level of Traitor Lord lol, fought after Hornet 2 (or lace 2 in this case) and not that hard

[twilit current]

But I had a lot of trouble with Lace 2 the first time

And Lost Lace

[terse wadi]

Yeah, I only had trouble in my speedrun, because I hadn't fought her since I cheesed her on my original file

[pastel timber]

It’s like lace 2 was the real act 2 final boss, and the gms fight was supposed to just be a spectacle afterwards to set up act 3

[ember river]

I struggled a lot with Lace 2 and Lost Lace because I was undergeared for both fights

I think I beat Lace 2 with an unupgraded needle and 2 extra masks

[twilit current]

I still can't beat Lost Lace consistently

[terse wadi]

pretty much

[ember river]

Because I couldn't find the nailsmith

[ember musk]

it takes some time to understand the telegraphs since shes tiny and you have to really look for them but then its like any other boss

[ember river]

Or pinmaster or whatever

[terse warren]

Ig but she's the final boss for the bad endings just like thk

[twilit current]

I'll probably get more consistent with time

[muted rover]

The worst case scenario attack with lost lace is her rising attack

[terse wadi]

Yeah, I was just overgeared and obliterated her on my original file so I hadn't learned her by the time I got to her in my speedrun

[ember river]

In that regard, I guess she is
THK was an easy final boss to hide the true one though, not the entire third act

[flint wadi]

cause its a fakeout boss, yeah

[terse warren]

Yeah, but THK wasn't the higher being pulling the strings behind everything

[ember river]

Still, the other two Higher Being fights in the series are really enjoyable and iconic, I'm kinda sad we haven't gotten anything like that in Silksong

[terse warren]

THK was a trapped mf

GMS is hyped up throughout the whole game and then you get the easiest fight in the game after moss mother

[muted rover]

even then I would expect like GMS to be like hard HARD since it's a higher being

[terse warren]

2?

[pastel timber]

gms is clearly intended to be a spectacle boss instead of a serious challenge but they fell flat on the spectacle which left it feeling underwhelming overall

[terse warren]

Radiance and?

[edgy barn]

NKG

[ember river]

Yep, that's my issue. THK exists so you can end the game and if you keep playing you fight the true final boss, which is an actual god
GMS is just there as the lock for act 3, which isn't even that intuitive

[terse warren]

He's not a higher being

[ember river]

NKG as the avatar of the Nightmare Heart

[muted rover]

it felt like GMS was done dirty, they could have done more

[terse warren]

The Nightmare Heart is, and the Nightmare Heart wants the fight to happen, we're not really fighting a higher being

[pastel timber]

is this really worth nitpicking

[ember river]

Considering how NKG enters the arena, I'd argue it is at the very least a partial aspect of the Heart, still probably not its true nature

[muted rover]

For a boss called Grand Mother Silk, she sure doesn't have a lot of silk attacks

[pastel timber]

TRUE

[ember river]

Grand Mother Scissor

[twilit current]

The weavers really love their pins

[zinc pivot]

Imagine GMS cluttered the screen radiance style

Also cursed crest

[ember river]

At the end of the day, GMS feels like a discount radiance with a bunch of her attacks, and that's probably what saddens me the most

[pastel timber]

radiance but only the spike walls 😭

[muted rover]

Like even with the silk attack on screen

it's just something to bind you before she does the 3 mask damage claw attack

[zinc pivot]

Next patch
Silk gets a silkshot and shows you the power of democracy

[twilit current]

That animation was cool though

[ember river]

Like Radiance was a multi-stage bossfight with plenty of attacks that fit her thematically, forcing you to use all the movement tools you've been given except the crystal dash, constantly changing the layout of the arena

[pastel timber]

i wonder if the lack of actual silk is meant to show that shes in a weakened state, hence why shes trying to bind your power to herself, and in a future dlc we get to see her full power

[zinc pivot]

Absolute Mother Silk

[ember river]

Then GMS borrows a bunch of the attacks and has at most a couple of her own, and the environmental changes are just limited to reducing the usable space of the arena

[zinc pivot]

Now spawn in Lace copies to kill you

[muted rover]

which was the coolest attack in the game

sucks that you have to get hit to see it

[twilit current]

I think you fought a different Radiance than me, I just spammed howling wraiths a bunch of times and she went away lol

[pastel timber]

i never saw it til i went to go trigger act 3

[pastel timber]

radiance fight goes so hard when you forget you have spells trust

[ember river]

It's just the first time when you don't really know what's going on, but even then it's very cinematic

[flint wadi]

radiance with no ddark is lame this is untrue

[twilit current]

I found radiance pretty straightforward even on my first playthrough

[muted rover]

Like why couldn't Grand Mother Silk form those Silk Spears like that enemy that drains your silk to form a spear

[twilit current]

Like, I died on THK like 20-30 times, but only died on radiance like 3-6 times lol

[pastel timber]

i did all of p5 with no spells because i forget to use them it was a blast it just took forever i dont recommend it 😭

[zinc pivot]

Better yet, why cant she have an attack that DRAINS OUR SILK

[ember river]

Worst thing is you get the ability to make them from her severed arm

[pastel timber]

discourse would be up in flames if she did that

[ember river]

How do you die to THK 20-30 times lol, I could get him after the 4th attempt or so while undergeared

[edgy barn]

No those are Pale Nails, totally different trust.

[stray flower]

There are teories about the mask maker in silksong? Cuz i just found him

[ember river]

He's pretty cool

[pastel timber]

theres plenty to say about him

[twilit current]

Idk, I just died a bunch and thought "wow this is a real final boss"
Then I came back later and beat them within like 3-4 attempts lol

[zinc pivot]

Funny how they are nails
When the entire pharloom is about pin

GMS use scissors interestingly

[pastel timber]

nail upgrades are insane

[stray flower]

Not the mask maker from HK, the mask maker from SS

[sacred heath]

yeah

[muted rover]

it doesn't have to be unfair but it would thematically make sense if she does that

[twilit current]

I didn't even get a nail upgrade, I think I just got the break buff

[pastel timber]

yeah

[ember river]

I only struggled with the pillar attacks and the yellow blobs in an arc, then I learned how to dodge them and won

[stray flower]

Cool thanks

[twilit current]

I like THK more than Radiance, more fun fight imo

[ember river]

Eh, I feel like THK is too slow of a fight

[pastel timber]

nail 4 does like 4 times as much damage as nail 0 its insane

[muted rover]

Silk spear, silk drain, or silk traps during the fight

[ember river]

Pure Vessel, however, is my favorite boss of the game

[twilit current]

Radiance is also a really slow fight

[zinc pivot]

Thats why you got Pure Vessel

[fallow spindle]

is the everbloom a stronger variant of yhe delicate flowr or is it due to the fact that hornet isnt made of void therefore when she takes damage she does not leak void like the knight that would destroys the flower in the process

[twilit current]

Like wow, those projectiles move really slowly

[pastel timber]

this is why god gave us absrad

[twilit current]

Yeah absrad is insane

I'm not beating that boss

[muted rover]

anyways this became a GMS game design criticism more than lore discussion

[pastel timber]

the everbloom is the delicate flower, the specifics of how it functions in hollow knight is almost definitely due to some fiddling with the lore between the games

[zinc pivot]

Absrad is insane especially after you just have your last breath with pure vessel

[ember river]

Even in comparison, Radiance is even more dynamic than Hollow Knight, with the changes of the arena and her teleporting around

[edgy barn]

Kind of by necessity. Imagine if THK was actually hard and you stil had to fight them every time Radiance killed you.

[twilit current]

Really? I found THK parrying, jumping and dashing way more fun to deal with

[edgy barn]

I second this

[ember river]

Also, Hornet can actually store it, if it ever touched the body of the Knight...

[twilit current]

Radiance just kinda floats there and summons slow projectiles, and you just whack her a bunch and do howling wraiths

[pastel timber]

bye bye knight...

[fallow spindle]

maybe she willed it to be stronger in her memory or sth lol.

[zinc pivot]

What, you think the knight just hold it in his hand with everymove he makes

[fallow spindle]

Or her storage is quite resilient and doesnt break the flower

[ember river]

Yeah, not to mention you can beat it very early on if you haven't unlocked the abyss

[edgy barn]

I have beaten her a couple times in godhome. I ain't doing P5 though.

[fallow spindle]

dont think the knight doesnt seem to have a place to store the flower

[muted rover]

maybe she protects it with her silk that's why it doesn't get broken

[ember river]

Maybe? Maybe it's carried within the cloak? I dunno

[pastel timber]

its so fun trust its only 40 minutes of your life 🙏

[muted rover]

also did the Snail Shamans died for that?

[fallow spindle]

true a cushion

[ember river]

Or maybe it being made from a memory has something to do

[pastel timber]

yeah

[ember river]

Yes, bringing something out of a memory is extremely power costly

[pastel timber]

snail shamans poured their own power into the spell and it used them all up

[zinc pivot]

Shame that apparently void can store a whole lot, even an entire castle and a pale being

[fallow spindle]

maybe she hadnt saw it break and so she thinks it would be less delicate

[zinc pivot]

But a flower touches it and it adios

[ember river]

Could be, that entire quest is confusing

[muted rover]

speaking of the void

i guess there's 2 things in the void, the liquid then the void tendrils that consumes all life

[ember river]

It mixes heart lore, a random weaver ability/spell that wasn't mentioned elsewhere

[zinc pivot]

Void tendrils would be like ice to void liquid as water

[ember river]

Void tendrils are just a form the void adopts

[muted rover]

It seems like the void liquid is safe?

[muted rover]

right, void given form

[ember river]

Apparently to convey its desire to consume

[edgy barn]

idk ask this guy

[pastel timber]

it does look that way, both the knight and hornet can swim in it

[ember river]

Not exactly THE void given form of Hollow Knight but a way to display their intent

[twilit current]

Bad ending of Silksong

[pastel timber]

if my eye sockets were full of tap water i would also probably be dead but i can still swim in it

[ember river]

Void Liquid isn't completely safe, since it is still damaging the everbloom, but it seems much calmer

[muted rover]

is the abyss just a big ass place on the bottom of the world? it's not a specific area, it's literally a whole ass layer at the bottom of the world?

[pastel timber]

void liquid is probably more of a poison that seeps into you

whereas trendrils are sharp things that stab you

[ember river]

So it seems

[edgy barn]

Yeah this is probably correct.

[ember river]

Perhaps it is what lays at the core

[twilit current]

Speaking of which, I love how terrifying the Abyss is in Silksong

[ember river]

Just keep in mind Void can adopt various configurations, and display itself in various ways just to eat you

[fallow spindle]

its probably the constant of every place, or just some patches of the world

[twilit current]

I thought the abyss was alright in HK, but I was genuinely on edge the first time I walked through the Abyss in Silksong

[pastel timber]

nature reference

[ember river]

Like that attack where the void is just a giant sword bullet

[fallow spindle]

Seeing that the void is perhaps higher in hollow knight

no lava involved

[twilit current]

It really gives off the "you shouldn't be here" vibe

[pastel timber]

god i do wonder just what we missed out on when the hk kickstarter missed the abyss expansion goal

[raw brook]

Wait when you die in elegy for the deep (Khann, Nyleth, Karmelita, Green Prince) in steel soul mode do you perma die and lose the save?

[edgy barn]

I played both games back to back and the abyss in silksong definetly has a more sinister area. Which makes sense as Hornet is not Void unlike the Knight.

[ember river]

Could just be the geography of the cavern where Hallownest was built, while Pharloom was built within a volcano or something

[pastel timber]

there just isnt lava in hallownest, not that the void is higher, the void is an ocean underneath everything, the lava comes in pockets

[twilit current]

Hornet talking about how she wouldn't survive in the black egg temple had me fearing for her life the whole time I was in the abyss

[ember musk]

yea cause the knight feels like he belongs, hornet really is a foreigner

[fallow spindle]

i unno maybe the enemies in silksong are the scrapped stuff from the abyss expansion

[ember river]

I think that TC kinda fails at making areas built from thousands of corpses be as creepy as they should

The Marrow and HK's Abyss seem much more chill than they have the right to be

[muted rover]

probably

Like if you pick any place in the world of hollow knight and dig straight down, you get The Abyss

[ember river]

Even the Birthplace

[pastel timber]

to be fair most of the game is made of bug corpse it kinda loses its edge

[twilit current]

Bone bottom would be way more creepy if team cherry could properly convey the horror from millions of bug's skeletons in an area

[pastel timber]

hornet says this in the journal

[twilit current]

Whiteward was terrifying though, and I found soul sanctum pretty creepy on a rerun of HK

[muted rover]

she does? damn

i probably should read everything, which entry?

[fallow spindle]

maybe the abyss probably being the oldest place was overwritten by many places burying it in the process

[ember river]

Don't Dig Straight Down

[twilit current]

Thousands of bug's corpses in the pit due to the experimentation of the soul master

[pastel timber]

should it be creepy though, pharloom frames the sacrifice of the dead as a heroic thing for them to rest their grand citadel atop, its not meant to be framed as creepy but instead something natural

[fallow spindle]

We did see that pharloom is grounded by many dead corpses so perhaps a TON of bugs buried the abyss

[muted rover]

Oh wait, didn't some old Civilizations exist near the void or in the void?

[twilit current]

I feel like there should be more feelings evoked by "oh, I'm stepping over the bones of other pilgrims to get to the citadel" than "meh, ok starter area"

[ember river]

Yes

[fallow spindle]

the void was probably one of the oldest or the oldest civilization in this place

[ember river]

The Ancient Civilization

It's also present in Silksong, albeit to a much lesser extent

[fallow spindle]

then a buncha higher beings started the take over and burried it downwards

[pastel timber]

you get the little pilgrim funeral scene but thats about it, youre focused on the climb rather than the fall

[twilit current]

Yeah I suppose so

[pastel timber]

probably cause they kept going "void please let us kill ourselves by bathing in you" they mustve succeeded

[muted rover]

good thing that the Shade Lord isn't doing anything crazy and just chilling

[fallow spindle]

its probably normalized by the bugs atp

[ember river]

I don't think they wanted to die but to become something akin to a shade
Something like what the PK did to all his children (except Hornet)

[twilit current]

Maybe Pharloom is a much older land and much of its most historic figures are lost to time due to other kingdoms doing their back and forth like Khann and the rest?

[pastel timber]

true true

[ember river]

Or that's what I gathered from exactly 3 words from the only Black Egg in the game

And that one tablet asking the void to rid them of their desires and whatnot

[fallow spindle]

(gms then proceeds to put silk in the shade lord)