sk-lore

[plush birch]

if we are venting, i want to vent about GMS design

[sinful nimbus]

Apparently that's not worthwhile

[silk dirge]

your never convincing me seals are not objectively the best animal bc its objectively correct

[sinful nimbus]

What if i want to

[lapis creek]

star you gotta let it go

[silk dirge]

you can but dont be surprised people get annoyed

[fair zealot]

fight design or character design? i think it's fairly well agreed upon that gms' fight is basically radiance but worse lol

[meager raft]

The True Ending of Silksong almost implies to me that Godhome (no flower) is the only possible canon ending unless something happened in the years between HK and SS

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not surprised per se

[lethal burrow]

Sounds like you just want to convince people that you're right instead of actually having a conversation about interesting possibilities or trying to figure out what the truth could actually be

[meager raft]

Namely the appearance of Lord of the Void

[silk dirge]

i mean then why do it

[sinful nimbus]

Where did you get this idea from I'm curious

[fair zealot]

then you're just rage baiting lmao

[silk dirge]

if you are doing it for the express purpose of annoying people

[sinful nimbus]

Because my original message was advocating for an idea I consider to be the truth based off of the available evidence

[plush birch]

no no i like the fight, i mean the character design. it is ver good in a vaccuum but it doesnt look like a part of the hollow knight world. she is too humanoid unlike other higher beings.

[lapis creek]

i dont want to scroll up can someone link me to whatever these two are arguing about

[lethal burrow]

Most messages I've seen from you

[silk dirge]

i mean the message im talking about was not really that

[fair zealot]

the idea you consider to be truth being... you don't like the void's inclusion in silksong?

[sinful nimbus]

I said the moths tried to kill Radiance then they said to go read a previous conversation and when I asked for any counterevidence he just said the equivalent of "agree to disagree"

[sinful nimbus]

...no

[silk dirge]

thats the message i was referring to

[fair zealot]

oh this is a whole other thing i missed mb

[silk dirge]

yeah

i said some shit and then ignored it

[lapis creek]

im guessing the line here is that erasing the history of the tribe is effectively an attempt to kill radiance

like you dont just forget about things

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

Its also implied that worship of Rad had to be a secret

[lapis creek]

i wouldnt go that far

[fair zealot]

i can see that yeah. i think it's cool that she's unique and sorta calls on that like, "maiden" religious vibe idk but i totally get your point

[silk dirge]

i do

[lapis creek]

and it's not necessary

[sinful nimbus]

Why would there be hush whispers of faith then

[silk dirge]

what if the moths just had adhd

and forgot shit

[lapis creek]

most of the kingdom worshipped pk i guess the amount of people worshipping radiance was very small by comparison

because she was very nearly forgotten

[sinful nimbus]

They wouldn't be whispering it unless it was meant to be a secret though

[plush birch]

pk also outlawed many other stuff

like life blood

[lapis creek]

i figured that was just an expression of how quiet it was

[fair zealot]

i don't think the moths finding a new god to worship is an "attempt" to kill the radiance, as in i don't think that was the objective they had in mind

[sinful nimbus]

The language chosen implies it was secretive

[dire lynx]

Because it's bad

[lapis creek]

and if you prohibit conversation on a subject you have not forgotten it

[terse wadi]

That part no, but purposely frogetting her is

[sinful nimbus]

No but it means no one will be learning about it again

[meager raft]

I didn't think it was purposeful

[fair zealot]

i missed the part where that happened i guess lol

[meager raft]

Just that she fell out of favor for the Pale King

[sinful nimbus]

Both are true

[terse wadi]

Hold on let me see if I can find the line that refrences it

[plush birch]

isnt there a huge ass statue of her up in the crystal peak

[meager raft]

yeah but who lives there? nobody lol

[dire lynx]

Yes

[edgy barn]

There's a pale ore at the statue's feet

[fair zealot]

i think the emphasis here is on "a" statue, as in one statue of her in the entire kingdom lol

[terse wadi]

How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.
Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too.
Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you.

[plush birch]

i think that big of an idol kinda implies that she isnt a secret? idk

[terse wadi]

I guess it's not exactly spelled out but it is implied

[fair zealot]

ah yeah i didn't read that as an intentional betrayal of radiance specifically

[edgy barn]

I think you can interpret that either way.

[sinful nimbus]

Its well off the beaten path

[terse wadi]

Might be another line that references it, this is just the one I remember

[fair zealot]

yeah but the pale king has like hundreds of idols all over the kingdom

[dire lynx]

It's presumably from before they left the radiance

[lapis creek]

fine but the game says that she was nearly forgotten and if you prohibit conversation on a subject you have not forgotten it

unless the taboo was more abstract, like the moths decided not to worship anything other than the pale king

[eternal sigil]

From this I suppose that the moths may well have been among the first of PK's followers in Hallownest. I have seen some discussion about how a lot of the spike-top things in the game have three and not four, a number better fitting Radiance than the Pale King emulating statues seen in White Palace and such

[fair zealot]

tbh hallownest would be a lot better off if the radiance acted like an adult and had a dialogue with the pale king instead of throwing a tantrum

[sacred heath]

honestly i think this is what happened

[lapis creek]

in a case like that it would make sense to say that they had to hide their belief of the radiance away

[sinful nimbus]

Of course the people prohibiting it wouldn't have forgotten

[eternal sigil]

The implication there being that a lot of Hallownest's architecture is just moth stuff that was either assimilated or slightly modified to fit the new vibe

[sinful nimbus]

I'm thinking it was a gradual process

[edgy barn]

Wait wrong comment

[sinful nimbus]

PK shows up, they stop explicitly worshipping Radiance and it becomes taboo to talk about it, then their children aren't told about her except for a few, worship gradually dwindles until she starts the infection

[lapis creek]

but the tribe mostly forgot

[edgy barn]

Would that even have been possible? I'm not sure PK dreams

[lapis creek]

that is the way they chose to express it

[fair zealot]

i mean he did move his entire palace into the dream world so idk

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

I don't really get the hold up

[lapis creek]

the hushed whispers sustained radiance even after like 99% of people forgot she had existed

eventually, the hushing cannot have been due to a taboo because the whispers outlived the taboo

[lethal burrow]

I think the thing is the main motivation.

I don't think it was the moths primary goal to kill the radiance that was not the main priority, they didn't abandon the radiance to kill the radiance. They abandoned the radiance for other reasons which would then serve to kill the radiance.

[lapis creek]

i can accept that there was a taboo early on

[sinful nimbus]

In that case it would be something like this yeah

[sinful nimbus]

They'd know that would kill her though

[fair zealot]

tldr of my opinion the actions of the moths and pk resulted in radiance almost dying but i don't believe killing the radiance was ever a deliberate objective

[lapis creek]

or that there could have been

[lethal burrow]

I wasn't denying that

[lapis creek]

but the whispers continued until the infection became widespread

[lethal burrow]

I basically agree

[sinful nimbus]

Me when I shoot someone to get 50 bucks (My goal wasn't to murder someone it was to get the 50 bucks, it was purely incidental)

[fair zealot]

that is until hornet and the knight started teaming up

[lapis creek]

they knew exactly what it would do to her though

seer accepts responsibility

[dire lynx]

W strawman

[sinful nimbus]

How is that a strawman

[edgy barn]

...how exactly?

[lapis creek]

because they know how dreams work. seer explains it to the knight

[lethal burrow]

Sort of a messy comparison because this is doing something to get something else as opposed to doing the thing for a separate reason, in this scenario, the money is the objective and it's not yet obtained, meanwhile, in the case of the moths, it's not like they would only be able to worship the pale king if the radiance was forgotten

[sinful nimbus]

Because moths are extremely knowledgeable about the dream realm and their job is about keeping the memories of people so they are not forgotten

[lapis creek]

our understanding of the threat to radiance's life literally comes from a moth

[sinful nimbus]

This just doesn't seem like a meaningful distinction

[lethal burrow]

I disagree

[sinful nimbus]

They knowingly took an action that would take someone elses life

[vague whale]

yeah it's absolutely a strawman

[fair zealot]

my question is if the radiance subsists on worship then how did it exist before creating the moths, much less have enough power to do so

[elder epoch]

Is elder hu part of shakra's tribe?

[lapis creek]

if the point of contention was whether or not the moths actively took actions that threatened to kill the radiance, then yeah they did this is really easy

[sinful nimbus]

We don't really know

[fair zealot]

seems likely

[edgy barn]

Yeah I was about to ask just that

[lethal burrow]

doesn't seer have another dialogue about memory being the only death that matters or something?

[sinful nimbus]

Also why would they have a goal that would require forgetting about Rad

You can choose to worship only one god while not killing the other one

[edgy barn]

Also, I think this discussion depends a lot on how exactly the relationship between Radiance and the moth worked.

[lethal burrow]

for all we know in the distant an ancient past, she had a physical form in the material world.

Though there's little that could suggest this either way

[sudden pivot]

can anyone please give me advice for Shakra shes the hardest boss TC has ever designed to me I know this is the wrong place but the other Silksong channels aren't being very helpful ;-;

[lapis creek]

dont bother

[sinful nimbus]

Harpoon that mf

[lethal burrow]

go to #sk-help

[sudden pivot]

I have no hit every boss in the first game this woman is fucking ridiculous

[sudden pivot]

"youll get it eventually" was the sage wisdom I recieved

[edgy barn]

Was it like a traditional religion, where the deity never interacts directly with the subjects, or did Radiance appear to the moths in their dreams and stuff?

[lethal burrow]

Then go to #sk-help-2

[sudden pivot]

WHEN are you meant to punish her

[sinful nimbus]

They basked in her light which indicates she was appearing in their dreams

That's also how she survives

[sudden pivot]

?????? since when has that existed, why is every channel on this damn server hidden by default 🙄 well anyways, thank you

[dire lynx]

My (completely baseless) theory is that she was once a physical being who eventually gave up her physical form for a more survivable one (caveat being she must be remembered) in the dream world

[lethal burrow]

there's also this dialogue which I think is somewhat relevant

"None of us can live forever, and so we ask those who survive to remember us.
Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters." - seer

[dire lynx]

I had forgotten this dialogue but it's funny how well it lines up with what I just said

[broken nacelle]

was bilewater just a whole seperate area or was it possibly part of verdania before it got fucked?

[visual glacier]

i think it was a seperate but still lush area

if they wanted it to be verdania they woulve left some wilted clovers

[lethal burrow]

tbh for all we know greymoor used to be part of verdania

[broken nacelle]

still patiently waiting on moossbag. the lores so sick from what ive pieced together, i need this video

[silk dirge]

nope

we know all of greymoor used to look like wisp thicket

[broken nacelle]

really want to learn more about the weaver lore and first sinner, from what i understand the sin in the name is apostacy? so first sinner was the first weaver to forsake silk sorta how the moths forsoke the radiance?

[terse wadi]

idk he thought the game was a prequel can't say I put much faith in his lore skills

[lethal burrow]

Where do we know that?

[silk dirge]

greymoor buildings are made of the exact type of bamboo found in wisp thicket

[mint furnace]

Environmental story building

Never picked up on that

[broken nacelle]

tbf he pegged the first npc as a snail shaman years ago, also got the map layout pretty accurate

[lethal burrow]

It depends because she could've also been against the other Weavers, who claimed themselves gods, and if they were the one who locked her up them pretending to be Gods would inprison her for apostasy

[wicked fossil]

I do wonder where the rain from Greymoor comes from unless it really is just silk as I heard someone say

[mint furnace]

It’s confirmed to be silk iirc

[wicked fossil]

I see and that makes sense

If it was water coming from Sinner's Road then yikes

[terse wadi]

The weavers imprisoned her for revealing that weavers are just evolved Pharlids and not divine in origin

[mint furnace]

Team cherry mentioned in that article about greymoor that everything there is to collect silk

[lethal burrow]

he did what to the first NPC?

[mint furnace]

Which confuses me because there’s dialogue about it being a food farm..?

[wicked fossil]

We do see some of the Roach wranglers in Greymoor

[silk dirge]

it used to be

[visual glacier]

thats cool

[silk dirge]

before the citadel they were farmers

[visual glacier]

screenshot? both?

[silk dirge]

and they lived with craws

[lethal burrow]

well, that's observed probably true but the Rain doesn't really act like how silk would if it was falling

[silk dirge]

i had some yesterday let me get them

[mint furnace]

“Oh boy! My favorite pilgrim snack! Rotten alligator!”

[left rivet]

Cool

[broken nacelle]

sooo does grandma silk lie to them and tell them her gift is divine?

[terse wadi]

an old prediction happening to be right when a lot of things were changed or scrapped isn't much imo but cool he got the map right

[wicked fossil]

Ooof

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the people of sinners Road used to be part of Graymoor as far as I know

[mint furnace]

Ngl I’ve gone full circle and the weavers are just assholes

[visual glacier]

sick

[mint furnace]

Imagine being ascended from a regular spider to a borderline Demi god, including also conscious thought, and you get pissed about it

[terse wadi]

Likely

[wicked fossil]

Yeah plus when you go to the first tower gauntlet in Greymoor in Act III, you have to fight a Roach wrangler alongside the thread collectors

So they were likely closely connected

[terse wadi]

GMS is put to sleep by the weavers, they created the citadel to contain her

[broken nacelle]

doesnt she cause their evolution still somehow? like seen in that one cutscene where she appears to be "growing" the pharlid

[terse wadi]

FS decided not to huff copium and realize they're not as special as once thought and the other weavers didn't like it

[lethal burrow]

it's worth noting it was not necessarily grandmother silk lying intentionally but that the Weaver's perceived it as a lie.
Grandmother silk might've truly believed it when she told them they were divine children, but the Weaver didn't see it that way

[mint furnace]

Imprisoning your mother after you learn you’re adopted (into royalty)

[terse wadi]

That is how the weavers were evolved

[left rivet]

Ya she smh

[broken nacelle]

so theyre mad bc they think theyre like abominations or something?

[terse wadi]

Typical royal behaviour

[left rivet]

Gave weavers higher thought plus divine powers aka silk control and creation

She loved them BUT

[lethal burrow]

Maybe, then again then being mad at grandmother silk is just a theory. They might've literally just imprisoned her because they wanted to be the ones in control.

[left rivet]

like

[terse wadi]

We know FS feels that way, but based on her imprisonment, I think the weavers clearly did not or at the very least weren't happy about it

[lethal burrow]

Both are possible and both aren't exclusive either

[broken nacelle]

so gms is imprisoned in silksong? so she is not responsible for hornet's capture?

[mint furnace]

She’s breaking out

Same as radiance

[broken nacelle]

ah ok so mind controlled guys capture hornet

[mint furnace]

Hornet just saying GARAMA (racial weaver slur) woke her up

[lethal burrow]

so she is imprisoned, and the haunting is happening while she's waking up. It seems like while she's waking up She's in a semiconscious state.

Not quite completely unconscious, but not quite lucid

[wicked fossil]

Since HK mentioned the Weavers returning to their home, I still wonder if the Weavers we do receive abilities from are the ones that came to Hallownest or if the Citadel got to them already

[broken nacelle]

and she wants hornet's silk to sustain lace right?

[mint furnace]

Just for general silk related things

[lethal burrow]

that's the current theory, but I'm not super confident in any proposed explanation for that yet

[mint furnace]

God of silk, you want silk

I’d have to assume lace does not eat THAT much silk that GMS can’t sustain her herself

[wicked fossil]

Plus Hornet's half-wyrm so she's more special than other Weavers

[terse wadi]

They all come from Pharloom originally, so it's inconsequential, but aside from widow and FS whom we both kill every other weaver is dead

[mint furnace]

And Hornet

I’d have to assume there’s a few we don’t know about, but regardless they are scattered or dead

[wicked fossil]

Yeah that's fair, I just pondered if any of the Weavers returned home were the ones who raised Hornet or were affiliated with her and Herrah

[terse wadi]

Bro

[wicked fossil]

Though I suppose it doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things

[terse wadi]

I literally said "whom we kill" implying i'm speaking from the persepctive of Hornet

[lethal burrow]

Again, grandmother silk seems to be in a semiconscious state so who even knows how capable she is of producing silk right now and using it for specific means

[mint furnace]

Why doesn’t lace just eat off the cocoon? Is she stupid?

[terse wadi]

Hard to say, not that it matters though likely not because "daughter of a distant land"

[wicked fossil]

Yeah they probably wouldn't say that to someone they were already familiar with

What matters is they recognize her as a Weaver regardless

[terse wadi]

FS is kinda a bitch for calling us a half breed lmao

[wicked fossil]

I will give her this at least, she doesn't outright kill you and just puts you outside

[silk dirge]

i mean is she wrong

[terse wadi]

Malding cause she got that wyrm dna

[wicked fossil]

So she could be testing us

[silk dirge]

she is i think

[terse wadi]

she isn't but in most story settings that's an insult or slur

[mint furnace]

Weaver eugenics theory

[silk dirge]

weavers are just racist i think

[mint furnace]

They’re all racist

[wicked fossil]

It's interesting that there's a broodling npc in place of where broodmother was originally fought

[terse wadi]

The other weaver skill givers just call you "daughter of a distant land"

[proud swan]

Is that why hornet is racist too

[wicked fossil]

Though Hornet doesn't seem to kill it despite her dislike for the warden flies

[terse wadi]

don't remind me

[mint furnace]

Hornet is actually very low in racism levels

[wicked fossil]

Though tbf, it's the only that talks and isn't hostile

[mint furnace]

She just hates flies

[proud swan]

Tbh i hate them too

[mint furnace]

Which, honestly, can you blame her

[lethal burrow]

By the way, interesting thing about all the Weavers that were brought:
One of them is two 8ths Weaver
one of them is one 4ths weaver and hornet is half weaver.
all adding up to 1 full weaver.

I'm unsure of what this means

[mint furnace]

Those guys do not deserve life

Purge the slab with fire

[silk dirge]

i dont need this discussion again

[wicked fossil]

Yeah it does get into some werid territory

[mint furnace]

Probably coincidence

[edgy barn]

If GMS needed a full weaver, Widow is right there

[mint furnace]

What’s more interesting is that there’s been atleast like 4 generations of weaver

[lethal burrow]

it feels way too coincidental....

Maybe the power of a single full weaver was required to unbind grand mother silk?

[proud swan]

What do we know about these others?

[wicked fossil]

Yeah Widow was in the Cradle at some point

[lethal burrow]

A few things

[proud swan]

I think thats a step on the right direction

[wicked fossil]

Needolin in a certain room

[edgy barn]

That being said, I don't believe that GMS is trying to get silk for Lace either.

[lethal burrow]

what does that scene Tell us anyway

[mint furnace]

Isn’t widows whole thing they’re unable to help GMS

[rancid violet]

Widow has had her silk production forcibly halted

[wicked fossil]

I'm still not sure tbh

[mint furnace]

Due to the torture devices implanted from the weavers

[lethal burrow]

hand mother silk

[proud swan]

I mean, she is mutilated and cant use silk

[rancid violet]

THE HAND MOTHER

[edgy barn]

We don't know that because we don't know what are the conditions for GMS to wake up

[proud swan]

Which is confusing given the fight

[mint furnace]

Also wanna point out again, what the fuck weavers

You subject one of your own to eternal pain?

[lethal burrow]

ye I think maybe they're mutilation is part of the reason they can't unbind grand mother silk, maybe they were mutilated for the very reason of making them unable to even

[edgy barn]

Widow can use silk, just not her own.

[mint furnace]

That’s my theory

Widow was the one weaver who saw sense

“Hey guys, we’ve been given like actual thought and basically god powers we sh-“

“INTO THE TORTURE DEVICE YOU GO”

[lethal burrow]

thinking about it, widow is sort of like the seer analogue/parallel for the game

[proud swan]

Yes, but I see no other reason for GMS to get weavers other than silk

[edgy barn]

Widow is more focused on worshipping GMS than in hating her tribe

[terse wadi]

You know, thinking about it, why is Eugenics even being brought up the amount of bug species in comparison to human races is massive even in HK and a lot of them aren't very tangibly related, and I don't think Bug as a broad general term can account for saying it's another race so in conclusion, Hornet is a speciesist

[rancid violet]

Widow also has their mask removed so it's very possible she was a weaver criminal, or that she Sinner against Gms like the first sinner

[mint furnace]

I think I’m slowly becoming a GMS defender

[lethal burrow]

widow is the last of her race, and the only one still loyal to how her God once was who gives you the dream nail equivalent that lets you appear into the memories and dreams of others...

just like seer

[proud swan]

I mean most of us are so its kinda okay I guess

[wicked fossil]

It could be interesting though if that is the case, First Sinner is a criminal in the eyes of GMS/Citadel whereas Widow is a criminal in the eyes of the Weavers

[edgy barn]

Oh yeah I suppose you are right if you look at it like that.

[terse wadi]

Lmao

[mint furnace]

Seriously though if the weavers thought widow was that bad to deserve eternal torture, why wouldn’t they just mercy kill them

Diabolical punishment

[lethal burrow]

why didn't the Weavers free the first sinner after they gained control? Are they stupid?

[wicked fossil]

They were likely more focused on getting the heck out of there

[lethal burrow]

death is a sin duh

[wicked fossil]

After putting GMS to rest

[proud swan]

We have no idea why widow was punished or by who, right?

[terse wadi]

People were calling her racist but i don't think people realize that doesn't apply because different bugs aren't different "races" like humans are they're different species

[proud swan]

Maybe she was punished by weavers themselves

[lethal burrow]

no we know for a fact, there was a period of time where the Weaver's ruled.

They didn't just leave immediately after binding her

[mint furnace]

“Sanctity of the spider form!!!!”

“We were random house spiders who were given big heads asshole”

[wicked fossil]

Plus that one Broodling that she isn't hostile to, though again, that one talks and isn't hostile like the rest

[rancid violet]

Well it's mention alot that weavers and their ilk have are inherently drawn to being dominating, so maybe Widow was much easier to control in her current state

[boreal veldt]

I like to think widow was one of the weavers that fled pharloom but was caught by gms again and had that happen to her as punishment

[proud swan]

Since weavers ruled for a time

[wicked fossil]

Oh true

[terse wadi]

I thought it was implied she was imprisoned because the weavers didn't like that they weren't truly divine

[mint furnace]

Speciesism don’t got that ring to it

[proud swan]

My headcanon is that she was punished when weavers stood against GMS or fled and she chose to stay with her. I see no reason why GMS would handicap her than give her own silk

[terse wadi]

I suppose but it's the truth

[mint furnace]

It’s 100% the weavers

[mental vale]

Losing a Steel Soul Run is a sin

[terse wadi]

Pretty much

[mint furnace]

Until we find out something else, I think I’m gonna say GMS was in the right and the weavers were terrible (up until around the start of the game)

[terse wadi]

Plenty of propaganda about not being allowed to die

[proud swan]

Do we know why weavers rebelled against GMS?

[mint furnace]

They learned they were adopted

[terse wadi]

No one in power was in the right

[lethal burrow]

but then why does the first sinner seem to be angry at grandmother silk only.

Like her all dialogue

[mint furnace]

That’s about it

[proud swan]

That's because of the Sinner dialogue right

[mint furnace]

Because being adopted is that much of a terrible truth I guess

FS is our one link to it

So if that’s our evidence I’m gonna call the weavers crazy

[terse wadi]

I mean, I'd be mad too if I was told I was godly then found out I wasn't

[iron grove]

what does the cursed ending meannn

[mint furnace]

But the problem is that they are

[proud swan]

Theres gotta be more to it. Sinners dialogue sounds more like they were betrayed somehow. Maybe she get fed of her own creation? Maybe she did something to a weavers others didnt get behind?

[mint furnace]

They were ascended

[iron grove]

who is the cursed bud

[mint furnace]

And they get mad that they weren’t born that way???

[terse wadi]

But Weavers imprisoned GMS so they could be in control and FS was imprisoned because they didn't like the truth

[boreal veldt]

Wait so the haunting happened because of everything that happened due to white ward?

[lethal burrow]

it's either because they wanted to be the ones in charge or because they perceived her to be lying to them about them being divine children.

or both

[mint furnace]

Being oligarchs doesn’t make their case much better

[edgy barn]

Then that means First Sinner was imprisoned by GMS. Otherwise the timeline does not work

[boreal veldt]

They weren’t her children just pharlids and also GMS wants full devotion, slavery in their eyes

[rough sandal]

Is the existence of the Bellways ever elaborated upon...?

[mint furnace]

Indeed, because FS learned

[boreal veldt]

First sinner was imprisoned due to apostasy so yeah she rebelled

[terse wadi]

No, they imprisoned GMS, FS said they weren't divine and imprisoned her

[mint furnace]

And again apparently it’s a terrible truth for the weavers to learn?? And they get super angry over it

Causing GMS to well, put them in time out

[proud swan]

I still don't think that's all

[terse wadi]

That's how I see it anyway

[rough sandal]

They just seem thrown out at random

[rough sandal]

Like why Bells

[lethal burrow]

it's more like the whiteward stuff allowed the haunting to be so so so many orders of magnitude easier.

[mint furnace]

“First sinner” implies they were the first one to know

[rough sandal]

Where the fuck do they get so many

[terse wadi]

Bells are pretty common in religion both irl and in video games

[lethal burrow]

How so?

[lethal burrow]

apparently people used to ride carriages through them or something.

[edgy stone]

It reasons first sinner was imprisoned by the weavers due to her location

[boreal veldt]

One of the relics also state “escape her silken sight” so they all escaped to different parts, also in alta I think? Or one of the weavnest doors it showed a map of paths out of pharloom they all wanted to escape

[mint furnace]

Is there evidence that implies FS isn’t imprisoned by weavers

[proud swan]

Yes. But I mean the reason. Maybe she tried controlling all weavers by using silk or somethiing

[edgy barn]

The point I am making is that either FS learned the truth, GMS locked her up and the weavers rebelled, or the weavers rebelled, FS learned the truth and then the weavers locked her up. It has to be one or the other

[edgy stone]

The slab did not exist before the weavers takeover/creation of the citadel

[rough sandal]

Yeah but tunnels of them just existing throughout the kingdom???

[mint furnace]

Could have been built around her

[boreal veldt]

Yeah they got obsessed with the silk, and even their children got born with it and that’s how GMS took control, but they originally did it cuz silk somehow made them immortal?

[rough sandal]

The sheer amount of bronze in Pharloom is insane lmao

[terse wadi]

I'm of mind it's the latter

[lethal burrow]

grandmother silk wants a level of devotion that involves not imprisoning her to an unconscious state.

[edgy stone]

I think theres lore documents about her imprisonment though

[rough sandal]

Makes sense

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the silk made them immortal

[mint furnace]

It just seems weird for the weavers to imprison FS

[edgy stone]

The conductor we meet in game is probably ancient

[mint furnace]

But as we have found out they’re kinda assholes so maybe

[mental vale]

I wonder what got all these Pharloom bugs fixated on Bells anyways

[edgy stone]

We see hes fed a constant supply of silk to survive

[lethal burrow]

if it's the first one then why didn't the Weaver's free her and if it's the second one then why is the first sinner only angry at grandmother silk

[terse wadi]

malding at the truth

[edgy stone]

First sinner was probably a danger to both the weavers and gms

She seemed deranged

[mint furnace]

Widows theme in FS implies they were also chill and believed in the GMS regime

This is canon because I will it

[lethal burrow]

she apparently invented using silk for runes though, at least that's the implication from the journal entry... so that's probably a way to date her imprisonment if somebody were to really think about it

[terse wadi]

Corpos always blaming the whistleblower

[edgy stone]

Widow is probably another sinner like fs

[proud swan]

Ok. Is Lace a paralell to the knight? A pale being trying to create a perfect daughter/son for a role, wanting full servitude (in different ways)...

[mint furnace]

widow is just a follower of GMS

[edgy stone]

The needles in her spine seem like some sort of punishment

[mental vale]

I wonder if First Sinner's Fate may have been the canary in the coal mine for the Weavers

[edgy stone]

To take away her silk abilities

[lethal burrow]

More the vessels in general

[mint furnace]

The weavers strapped them in a torture device because she believed in GMS

[proud swan]

And failing miserably

[mint furnace]

And that made them go completely insane because… torture

[edgy stone]

Wifow mightve been a loyal weaver that got absolutely fucked by the remaining weavers

[boreal veldt]

Yeah no wonder she was so obsessed with that silk, her own silk was made useless due to the needles and she went mad

[lethal burrow]

I think that's just confirmed, isn't it?

[mint furnace]

Indeed, that is the prevailing theory

[boreal veldt]

Sad really

[mint furnace]

It’s so close to being confirmed that it pretty much is

[edgy stone]

Does she have any lore outside her cutscene and bio?

[mint furnace]

It just doesn’t make sense otherwise

[mint furnace]

There’s a needelion in a secret room

[lethal burrow]

there's the theory that she was mutilated how she was to stop her from being able to free grandmother silk

[mint furnace]

Where shes lamenting over GMS iirc

[edgy stone]

Oh the one next to the cradle?

[proud swan]

Yes! It seems to be a motif. You can't create perfect daughters or sons. If it is that, maybe GMS is the one who turned against weavers because they acted different than she expected (like PK just left all the vessels in the abyss)

[mint furnace]

Yeah

[edgy stone]

I guess it makez sense for it to be widow specifically

[proud swan]

it is said after all that pale beings are REALLY repetitive

[boreal veldt]

One of the cages in the cradle was her no?

Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service. Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel. Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task

[edgy stone]

No the cages are for weaver offspring

Widow is a full weaver

[proud swan]

She could have just made more weavers to stay on her side. But she wanted something different. The existence of Lace and Phantom points to the fact that she was not happy with the creation of weavers

[edgy stone]

Just severely mutilated

[edgy barn]

Maybe First Sinner discovered the truth and GMS locked her up, and seeing this treatment and knowing the truth the other weavers decided to overthrow and seal her, but after the deed was done they decided to leave FS imprisoned so that they could keep pretending to be divine and legitimize their rule?

[lethal burrow]

idk silk heart dialogue does say "better a daughter spun mad, than none,
better a daughter spun frail, then none,
better a daughter spun pure, then them."

But this seems to be in direct relation to the Weaver's screwing her over which to be honest, I think is someone reasonable if my child locked me in a sleep prison, I would not be thrilled.

[edgy stone]

I dont think the weaver silk thing is gonna be a situation where either are inherently in the wrong

[lethal burrow]

that's reasonable....

[edgy stone]

I feel like its moreso both weavers and silk strained their relationship

[lethal burrow]

Maybe but what's the not wrong part of what they did

[edgy stone]

Weavers also realized freedom is not attainable with silk being free

[terse wadi]

So the long story short is someone in control of silk is a real asshole

[edgy stone]

Silk probably did love the weavers to some extent but still ruled over them as is her nature

[proud swan]

Another thing that could have happened: First Sinner was the first one to use runes with silk. That could be a sin, since they're twisting silk and turning it into offensive power. Its like the apple of knowledge!

[edgy stone]

The apple is called the original sin

[edgy barn]

First Sinner's sin was apostasy tho

[proud swan]

Well, yes - the first, the original one

[lethal burrow]

I thought the first sin was gwyn creating the undead curse

[terse wadi]

By who's standards

[edgy barn]

And like, her whole thing is knowing the truth and being angry about it

[terse wadi]

GMS or the weavers

[edgy stone]

She did call the weavers her daughters and proclaimed them as holy beings even if it was a lie

[proud swan]

well, if GMS had a commandment saying THOU SHALL NOT USE SILK TO DO SICK SPELLS, it would be apostasy to turn against this

[lethal burrow]

It could be either funny enough.

The Weavers pretended they were gods, and grandmother silk actually is one.

[edgy stone]

Well I do think the weavers accepted their nature as lower than gods but resented it

They seemed incredibly interested in creating a higher being

[edgy barn]

I believe GMS's. Accusing her of being a liar and not the weaver's true mother could be qualify as apostasy

[edgy stone]

Both with eva and hornets birth

[lethal burrow]

harrah did not do hornet for the designs of the
-# other
Weavers

[edgy stone]

Yeah but the weavers still gracefully take advantage of herrah and hornet

[terse wadi]

why would that bother GMS though she knows the truth

[proud swan]

I just think its an incredible coincidence that the first sinner is also the first one to "weave silk into blazing runes"

[edgy barn]

It would be the equivalent of walking into Heaven and telling God to his face that he is not the creator of the world and that he has been lying to humanity from the very begginning

[lethal burrow]

tbh i see eva as the weavers trying to prove they were better than grandmother silk.

"you couldn't give birth to real gods, you made us! So we're going to prove that we're better than you by actually making a real god child!"

[terse wadi]

Can't say it is, considering weavers were evolved not created

[proud swan]

Yeah actually pretty much anything deviating from total servitude could be labelled apostasy if one would want to.

[edgy stone]

The red memory dialouge paints a picture of them trying to groom hornet into a leader for them

Which herrah specifically did not want for hornet

[edgy stone]

And they failed at it miserably and thats probably why they hate eva so much

[lethal burrow]

yeah

tldr the Weavers are just deeply insecure

[edgy stone]

Eva is probably a parallel of the weavers and silk

[blissful canyon]

anyone know how this guy died?

[terse wadi]

I don't blame them, being told you have godhood and finding out it was a lie probably blows

[proud swan]

Probably the hunter

[edgy stone]

They were told they were gods as well but still had to be subservient to silk

[terse wadi]

why this persons message hidden "from likely spammer"

[proud swan]

Gurr the outcast has attacks similar to the stuff in his back

[tacit lake]

do yall thing nameless town bugs came from pharloom?

[blissful canyon]

I mean as long as I didnt have to pay 240 rosaries for that fractured mask im happy

[lethal burrow]

maybe gurr

[edgy barn]

The other ants kill him because they are under the Haunting and he is not

[lethal burrow]

I have no idea what the nameless town is supposed to tell us right now

[edgy stone]

I dont know if the weavers truly hated silk or just wanted freedom for themselves

[edgy barn]

Gurr kepts his prey, he wouldn't just leave him there

[tacit lake]

idk is js a fun place

[lethal burrow]

I don't think we really have an indication that they were unfree under her

[lethal burrow]

he keeps his prey if they're worthy of being trophies.

I don't recall weak enemies being strung up, but maybe I miss remember

[proud swan]

stuff from Gurr vs the stuff in his back

[edgy stone]

When widow plays her instrument, is that supposed to be post or pre silk bindment,

[proud swan]

also Gurr is an act 3 boss so it is convenient that when he becomes available the other dude is dead

[lethal burrow]

If her head shape isn't an orb that it's post

[edgy stone]

Wait, are the orbs not their base feature/mask?

Oh wait wait I grt what you mean

[lethal burrow]

no, they are, the non-orb head is part of the mutilation. It was forcibly removed.

[proud swan]

Yes, but she was ripped from hers

[edgy stone]

Well it could still be post if she was tasked to keep silk bound by playing music to keep her asleep

[edgy barn]

We see a tallcraw and a squatcraw strung together

[edgy stone]

She fell to silks call though and tried to free her which results in her mutilation and silk being taken away

Thats how I see it potentially

[edgy barn]

Mottled Skarr dies a lot earlier than Act 3

[proud swan]

I highly doubt it since he probably hunts a lot and only has like 3 or 4 preys in his cave

[lethal burrow]

I think both interpretations are possible, but it's more interesting if it's gurr

[edgy stone]

Skar is jist a weird character

[proud swan]

He does? I thought he died on act 3. When does he die?

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, what's the trigger for his death?

[tacit lake]

what bugs cant be affected by gms?

[lethal burrow]

probably Weavers and Weaver spawn

[tacit lake]

wb herrah

[lethal burrow]

And other higher beings

[lethal burrow]

she's a Weaver evidently

[tacit lake]

so she can be controled

[edgy stone]

We do know hornet can be trapped by silk but can resist the mind control

[edgy barn]

Mottled Skarr will die in Act 2 after Hornet achieves ONE of the following conditions and then rests on a bench in an area outside Hunter's March:

Defeating the Cogwork Dancers
Ringing the bell at the top right of Choral Chambers and setting up the town Songclave
Acquiring the Clawline ability

[edgy stone]

As seen if she rests in bellhart

[lethal burrow]

you just asked which bugs can't be controlled

[edgy stone]

Its silk strung by widow but she doesnt fall to any sort of mind control or nothing

[tacit lake]

thought i put the t, ty

[lethal burrow]

ye so non-Weavers and non-higher beings are susceptible to the haunting as far as we know

[proud swan]

This is crazy. I mean it does look like the sword from Skarr Stalker too

[lethal burrow]

Makes sense since they're both ants

[tacit lake]

also, what higher beings appear on silksong apart of gms and abyss?

[edgy barn]

None that are confirmed

[proud swan]

So what we get is that Mottled was killed by racism. again

What does a brother bug got to do to survive in Pharloom damn

[lethal burrow]

The moss druid seemed pretty high

[edgy barn]

No, it's just that haunted bugs attack non-haunted bugs

[proud swan]

Yeah but ants are mostly confused and not completely under the haunting effect

But it could be

[proud swan]

Hornet

[edgy barn]

Hornet is not a higher being unless Weaver Queen ending.

[tacit lake]

how?

[proud swan]

Not sure I agree. In Weaver Queen she is stronger. But she naturally lived many lifespans, is capable of handling things several bugs cant, including the snail ritual. She is definitely "higher" than most bugs

[lethal burrow]

that's because the other bugs are extra susceptible to the haunting on account of the whiteward stuff

The ants are a good example of regular bugs, getting haunted apart from all that

[proud swan]

Damn you may be right. The whiteward experiments could made then extra prone to it. But It does look like Karmelita is still keeping them a little in check, although in a very weak manner

[lethal burrow]

After all, I doubt the ants were made immortal by the silk

[edgy barn]

I mean she is obviously not a common bug. She's got eternal life and an extra strong shell, but she still not at the "required height" if you know what I mean.

[proud swan]

Yeah you're right. She's basically a bug demi-god

[tacit lake]

"high", that word remembers me of bro in certain way

[proud swan]

I say this because singing is hella related to will in this game. Sherma sings and becomes responsible for pilgrims on songclave. Karmelita sings and was able to control and give force to ants. Even the dude in bellhart says hes built different and all he does is sing. Also silk is capable of producing sound, and the haunting is somehow a song. Hornet literally opens new paths when playing the needolin and can use it to obtain their strenght

[proud swan]

I LOVE SLY

[tacit lake]

we*

[tacit lake]

but there are bugs that like are big asf but havent shown any feats or things

[kind steeple]

We should've paid more attention when the name of the game was silksong

[tacit lake]

sherma is a god

[proud swan]

we were to busy silking

[edgy barn]

For example?

[proud swan]

yeah the bird from mt. fay is an example

[kind steeple]

Gms was the one who made weavers right?

[tacit lake]

fayforno

[proud swan]

that dead mushroom in fungal wastes also

[edgy barn]

Not a confirmed higher being

[kind steeple]

I'm confused because the game was about bugs then we got crows and birds and demonic frogs

[tacit lake]

well its big tho

[proud swan]

I see the confusion, dude is talking about "height"

hes just saying she doesnt make the cut I guess

[edgy barn]

Yeah that's what I meant

[proud swan]

yea

[edgy barn]

Not physical height.

[tacit lake]

aaaah

mb twin

[proud swan]

which are all bugs dude. if something bugs you its gotta be a bug. stand up laughter

[tacit lake]

also mb but is fayforno called by tht on english?

[kind steeple]

😂😂😂

[proud swan]

Yea kinda its fayforn

[edgy barn]

You mean as in "The Fayforn"?

[tacit lake]

im spansih and the double jump is called "Capa de FAYFORNO" Like cape of fayforn so i thought

[proud swan]

Same in portuguese I guess

But in english its faydown cloak

[wicked fossil]

I think it's probably to illustrate that even simple towns can exist amongst great kingdoms though I suppose we already knew with that HK with Dirtmouth being above Hallownest

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the creature is fayforn. It's unclear whether it's THE fayforn or if that's it species or if that's just it's a specific name or if that's what it's just been called by people or whatever

[proud swan]

Also I just realised its a species

[edgy barn]

"Protective garb lined with the soft down of a Fayforn and sewn through with flexible spines."

[wicked fossil]

Like you see the grand, shining Citadel and above it is just the surface, a nameless, run down town

[lethal burrow]

right

[proud swan]

faydown cloak says "with the soft down of a Fayforn"

[tacit lake]

its okay if i say fayforno😭

[proud swan]

probably not a higher being then

[lethal burrow]

sorry, I was distracted thinking about how the wiki has a typo and it uses E instead of A

[wicked fossil]

It's funny that Fayforn comes back when Mr. Mushroom is there

[proud swan]

brother Im gonna say fayforno wit you

[wicked fossil]

Guess they wanted to hang out with him

[lethal burrow]

Probably higher than the pale king

it can fly.

[tacit lake]

yey

[edgy barn]

So could pale king

[proud swan]

PK tried to manipulate an ancient god. You gotta be high for that

[tacit lake]

"he can fly" he got a point tho

[kind steeple]

There was a sign telling hornet about fayforn on mount fay right? Like saying "at the end of your journey you'll meet a creature which will either lead you to your demise or greatly reward you for your actions🧙‍♂️"

[proud swan]

Ye!

[lethal burrow]

ye the Weavers thought birds were cool

[kind steeple]

Yeah you gotta be very high to think about that

[lethal burrow]

Anyways, anybody have any questions?

[kind steeple]

I think I finally understood silksong lore I just don't know about Eva

Eve idk what's the name in English

[foggy fractal]

?

[lethal burrow]

It's the same

[tacit lake]

as far as i know she or he got sealed and binds with hornet

[lethal burrow]

The way I see eva is the weavers trying to prove they were better than grandmother silk.

"you couldn't give birth to real gods, you made us! So we're going to prove that we're better than you by actually making a real god child!"

[edgy barn]

Eva was a failed attemp by the Weavers at creating a higher being

[tacit lake]

ah then im dumb

[edgy barn]

The halo Hornet gets from Eva's ability when sitting on a bench is actually the same halo GMS has on her head.

[lethal burrow]

what do you think of the significance is of all the Weavers that were brought adding up to a full weaver?
One of them is two 8ths Weaver
one of them is one 4th weaver and hornet is half weaver.

all adding up to 1 full weaver.

[proud swan]

I asked what do we know of them before, I forgot to followup. Is it it possible to find the messages/dialogues that mention them?

[static ginkgo]

Wait wtf isnt two eights just 1 fourth

[lethal burrow]

yes.
you can find it written in the cradle:

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

[static ginkgo]

Oh like that
I was confused why they'd say 2 eights, but it's cus you meant 2 different people, I see

[proud swan]

Yes, 1 fourth + 1 fourth + 2 fourths

[foggy fractal]

these weavers are fodder 💔

[edgy barn]

I like the idea that GMS needs a full weaver to wake up but I don't think it holds up because Widow exist and has been to the cradle. You can say she is mutilated but Hornet's mere presence seems to be enough, she doesn't need to do anythin with her silk which is the only thing Widow would be incapable of doing.

[proud swan]

Eighth part is insane. That's three hybrid generations

[proud swan]

Yes, but metaphorically the power of a full weaver would be necessary and Widow definitely doesnt have enough

[lethal burrow]

well the question then shifts too if widow wants to wake grandmother silk up (which she does) why hasn't she? We even see that she was in the cradle.

[edgy barn]

One was old and frail and another already mortally wounded and yet they still put on a fight while only being 1/8 weaver.

[proud swan]

Eva silk and soul dialogue, as we were talking about weaver reasons for rebelling:

Hornet: Eva, I am seeking a tool, told to be somewhere in this structure. It is a snare device of Weaver make. Do you know of it?
I may, lady. Search over from here, on side where the moss meets the nest. There, my mothers built their tools, all traps and bindings. Small things, but tests for larger forms.
I still remember their thoughts as they worked, their desperation, and their hunger. Another hopeless attempt to wrest their freedom. All ended in failure, of course.

Makes me think if hunger is literal or metaphorical (hunger for power/dont have resources/gms could have been depriving them of food somehow). But it does give weight to freedom being the main reason

[spark valve]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaOgO1d-_DY

first sinner and second sinner 🗣️

[lethal burrow]

The game says a couple times that the Weavers were not free... but like I don't know how though.

What were they not free to do? What were they tasked with?

[lethal burrow]

why does it sound like it Was this dude playing?

https://tenor.com/view/sweaty-sweat-gamer-apex-legends-gif-21619319

[foggy fractal]

probably because it was

[edgy barn]

Crazy Idea: a three way fight where Widow and First Sinner are fighting each other and also Hornet.

[foggy fractal]

nah too easy I'll just hide in a corner trust

[spark valve]

shaman crest ascendant's claw or whatever it's called weavelight just spam rune rage

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ RUNE RAGE

[silk dirge]

why did the weavers say flee not flea

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/fun-gif-4332939000492926570

[silk dirge]

does this mean weavers are racist towards fleas as well

this weaver racism lore is going a bit too far man idk what to say

[foggy fractal]

we should cancel TC

[silk dirge]

is there any race weavers dont hate

[proud swan]

bro I though we had a deal we calling her specieist or something

[silk dirge]

i have a bottle of flea killer in the house

maybe im the racist weaver all along

[foggy fractal]

hey. knock it off bud. rule 1.

🐺

[silk dirge]

it doesnt say no discrimination based on species

i can be racist towards fleas

but i wont bc im not actually the racist weaver

and fleas are cool

[proud swan]

Lore question

Why crest of the wanderer? Who is the wanderer? It keeps me thinking because theres wanderers journal in hk and also the hollow knight book called wanderers journal

[wheat dagger]

I think the whole concept of crests is best put as Eva does

[blissful harbor]

it’s a reference to TK

[proud swan]

wanderer could be knight as the attacks are strikingly similar

[sinful nimbus]

The wanderer is the corpse you bind it from

[proud swan]

This fellow then

[silk dirge]

ow thats me dont take my crest

[proud swan]

omg twinsies

[molten parcel]

so uh, what are crests exactly? what is that power supossed to be

[blissful harbor]

suspiciously baby shaped lump

[wheat dagger]

The way I understand it, crests are who you are deep down, a quality entwined with your very being. It seems the The Knight and other vessels are Wanderers, yes

Hornet naturally is a Hunter, but her ability to Bind allows her to use other crests

[sinful nimbus]

Its like, the "being" of a person, representing them and their burdens. For example Reaper's crest helps you gather extra silk because Greymoorians were tasked with gathering aerial silk and putting it in silk dregs

Eva: One not without cost. My sight perceives a bug only through the imprint upon their soul.
Hornet: You speak of their crest? That signifier of a bug's essence and their invisible yoke born through a lifetime.
Eva: Crest? Yes, the old Weaver term. A simple word to attempt description of something so profound.

[foggy fractal]

yeah I forgot how basic this guy was

[molten parcel]

so why can hornet switch between them

[spark valve]

hornet's nature is malleable

[silk dirge]

bc shes special

[proud swan]

Could the wanderer be Ellina the chronicler

[wheat dagger]

Yeah, Hornet's ability to bind is special; it allows her to absorb the abilities of others

[silk dirge]

probably has to do with her being part weaver part wyrm

i dont think normal bugs are that

[proud swan]

Probably. Eva says her nature is malleable

[molten parcel]

i wonder what eva looks like

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't look like Ellina all that much

[proud swan]

"Lady... Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bugs. Yours is malleable, transitory. It is a marvelous thing. Worth my long life to behold."

[blissful harbor]

the achievements kinda shows her

[wheat dagger]

From what I understand the weaver statues throughout Pharloom are actually fossilized Weavers and the abilities you get from them are what they specialized in

[spark valve]

eva being surprised at hornet's ability is probably indication it's more from her wyrm side

[molten parcel]

i really hope we get to know more about wyrms nature

[proud swan]

Yeah, I wish we could see her when we bind her

[wheat dagger]

Oh also while we're on the topic of Wyrms

[sinful nimbus]

[Hornet]:You have the sight, Maker. Tell me what you see in me?
[NPC]:Your mask... It reads clear enough, Old One. Watcher, hunter, monarch even, though you may reject that station.
[NPC]:A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved.[Hornet]:If you see a transitional state, it is one I have accepted. My mask has remained defined through lifetimes uncounted.
[NPC]:Aye. Rigid I'm sure, but your kind rarely develop evenly, and the lifetime of bugs are poor measure for one like you.
[NPC]:Could be there's more growth awaiting you yet...
Mask Maker also seems to indicate this

[spark valve]

well yes the 'masks' mask maker talks about are also about identity not dissimilar to crests

[molten parcel]

so every kingdom has its maskmaker

[proud swan]

Hey is it possible that maybe hornet can change form, like the pale king could when he was birthed through a pale egg?

[spark valve]

generally probably not but she does in weaver queen

[molten parcel]

i doont think pale king can turn back into the worm form ever

[proud swan]

Everybody new theory just dropped

What if wyrms just wanted to be hug and pale king in its wyrm form couldnt because of its gigantic size and spikes. He became smol for hugs. He is a hugger

Maybe gms also. Created daughters for hugging

I may have taken antihistamine btw

[wheat dagger]

It seems to me that Void has a hunger for Pale beings. It'll consume anything, but it specifically wants to devour Pale beings. The only "pale" thing that seems to resist its power is the Everbloom

That would have scary implications for what the Pale King intended to do with Void, knowing its danger to his kind. I'm under the impression that he didn't intend for Hallownest to just be the Eternal Kingdom, but eventually the only kingdom. Feed all pale beings to the Void, save for himself.

[proud swan]

dont you guys think he just wanna hug the hell of our little buddy. look how he is staring

[raven oak]

isnt it just soul in general that void is attracted to?

[proud swan]

Well this could explain why there was so much void in his room. And how he was dead, despite being immortal

[wheat dagger]

Is it? It seemed to me that Pale beings are weak to Void, hence why the Snail Shamans sent GMS there in an attempt to kill her

[muted lantern]

i mean i think everything is weak to void

[proud swan]

This

[crude peak]

What's the lore of pinstress & seamstress?

[wheat dagger]

Also why the Radiance refers to Void as her "ancient enemy" through dream nail dialogue

[proud swan]

Three sisters. Possibly worked with weavers/gms

[muted lantern]

like this is like saying horses are weak to hydrogen bombs, like yeah man

[proud swan]

Theres one dead in bilewater

[raven oak]

well from what I know pale beings are strongly tied to soul, and there are multiple mentions of soul being what void is attracted to (which is why the void trap works with a huge amount of soul to maybe “lure” the void)

[crude peak]

There's a third?

[raven oak]

3rd is dead in bilewater

[crude peak]

Oh ...

[crude peak]

Sadness

[wheat dagger]

[muted lantern]

a third pinstress has hit the bilewater

[crude peak]

[wheat dagger]

Aw damn I thought that was just a dead Stillkin Trapper

[proud swan]

Wait are pale beings strongly tied to soul? How?

[raven oak]

yeah it does look similar

[muted lantern]

not really sure if they are honestly

pk has stuff to do with soul

and maybe gms? if her silk contains soul

[wheat dagger]

I mean there's the Kingsoul charm, which generates infinite soul

[proud swan]

I mean the color tip is kinda obvious but hk is a little misleading with colors sometimes

[proud swan]

Bro thats is genius

[raven oak]

the word pale is used for many objects and things that are directly related to soul like pk, lace, and gms made of or have lots of soul, also the ancient masks and silk spools

[wheat dagger]

Ah right right,

[proud swan]

But why would lace be related to soul?

[raven oak]

she is made of silk

[muted lantern]

pk having power over soul does not mean all pale beings do

also im not sure silk inherently contains soul, im pretty sure thats something unique to hornet

because her dads the pale king

[proud swan]

But is it the same thing? Its not clear

[lethal burrow]

the Citadel learnt from the Pinstresses in the past, Then the Citadel attacked them using what they had learned.

This is also why second sentinel shares a lot of the moves of the pinstress.

also they are in someway related to the residences of bilewater.

[crude peak]

For the ending where you bind GMS, what exactly does it imply? It looks like hornet is turning to void or something

[blissful harbor]

weavers could do the same

[muted lantern]

when is that said?

[proud swan]

She was attacked by these goddamn chalamets man

[raven oak]

i think they are very similar, like hornet says that the shamans soul power comes from gms or something and also most silk in the game gives you soul when you hit it

the silk from gms and hornet have soul fs

[blissful harbor]

we see a half made seal in the weavers den in HK with soul comingg off
also like, all of the soul construct shit they use like soul elevators

[grand star]

you become a higher being and presumably start ruling the kingdom the same way GMS does

it has nothing to do with the void though

[raven oak]

also anyone have any thoughts on the scrapped ending?

[crude peak]

Ohh. That seems counterintuitive though, why would hornet do that

[raven oak]

i saw it yesterday and thought it was neat

[proud swan]

Nah she just naked. With lots of arms

[lethal burrow]

They're not the same thing or else it wouldn't be notable that hornet has the pairing of the two within her.

[crude peak]

Cause the entire game she is saying she wants to remove the grasp the being has or whatever

[grand star]

there aren't any ways to kill her other than binding her presumably

[crude peak]

Huh...

[proud swan]

We discussed it a bit earlier. Face of hornet, but hands and stance of silk mother. General consensus is that GMS won and got hornets silk

[raven oak]

oh nice

[proud swan]

I however think its basically the weaver queen ending and they just chose it to portray in a different format

[crude peak]

Ok one more.

Is there a lore reason as to why savage beast fly sucks ass?

[raven oak]

yeah they probably thought that being overwhelmed with silk would work better than just dying and getting absorbed

[proud swan]

Yeah. And it's weird that such an ending was scraped. If its trigger were GMS's victory, it would be weird to not put it in the game. To me it's just an alternate to weaver queen, which would be a good reason to scrape it I guess

[spark valve]

The trigger is defeating gms there’s an achievement in the files too

[grand star]

does the achievement have a description?

[raven oak]

ig it makes sense that they replaced it cause dying as an ending doesn’t feel at all conclusive

[spark valve]

“Defeat Grand Mother Silk”

[grand star]

i think it would have been failing to bind her fast enough

i tried that on my first playthrough

[lethal burrow]

lore question: there's a couple Weaver lore things that say they wanted their freedom, but how exactly were they unfree?

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is very obsessed with loyalty (Judging off of the lace silk heart dialogue) so I wouldn't be surprised if her rule was restrictive in multiple ways

[raven oak]

i think they were kinda forced to serve gms to sustain her

[craggy smelt]

there's a couple of references to them being under GMS' gaze, so maybe they felt her rule was oppressive

[lethal burrow]

but is there anything to suggest any of this

[pastel timber]

i dont think its ever outright stated but given hornets verdania dialogue about "worship or destruction" its likely either gms was a tyrant ruling over them, or watching the first sinner cutscene it looks like their minds were directly connected to gms through silk, like how the haunting controls the pilgrims

[lethal burrow]

the verdania dialogue is so confusing for the timeline because it implies the symbol that was already a thing before grandmother silk was put to sleep

and that she was an active conquering force

[craggy smelt]

I don't think we have any specifics about why exactly the Weavers felt unhappy, we only know they eventually had a falling out with her

[pastel timber]

she most likely was, given our only other look at a pale being is the pale king who arrived in hallownest and assumedly dethroned the radiance

[craggy smelt]

she might have existed in her cocoon form before, and the weavers bound her into it - she also spun a cocoon to defend against the Void

[proud swan]

Why is that confusing for the timeline?

[raven oak]

also probably cause the weavers were lied to because gms told them they were daughters and not just evolved spiders

[craggy smelt]

that does seem to have been a sore point for them, going by Sinner's dialogue

personally, I think that'd still be pretty cool

[ivory forum]

is silksong the first time we've seen the true surface?

[pastel timber]

it seems to be what got sinner imprisoned too given the "apostasy", so either gms did not like that either or the other weavers were in denial for a bit

[raven oak]

also am i the only one who didn’t understand the weaver lore from first sinner cutscene

[craggy smelt]

that area resembles the same 'surface' around Dirtmouth, I feel, I think it's implied to be the same general 'layer' of the world
(I put 'surface' in quotes because there is no surface, only underground forever forever ungrounder)

[pastel timber]

the surface and the wasteland look pretty much the same so its hard to tell if howling cliffs for example is the surface or not

[proud swan]

It may not be true surface though

[raven oak]

i only understood it after when reading about it

[pastel timber]

if silk is another manifestation of soul, and we know that void seeks out soul to consume it, could radiance calling it "ancient enemy" imply that dream essence is also connected to soul, and if so would that make radiance a pale being too (given that the 3 pale beings we know of all share a link to soul, also possible explaining the pale ore in the radiance statue)

[lethal burrow]

True, but what do you make of this mask maker dialogue

"Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all."

Hornet: "You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both."

"Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule."

[lethal burrow]

see above

[lethal burrow]

It's the first time we're confirmed to see it

[proud swan]

Forgot about that dialogue. Then the citadel was made by weavers to keep gms sealed?

[raven oak]

i mean couldnt there still be more above it

[pastel timber]

gms arrives
deposes the ancient tribal rulers
establishes citadel and weaver lineage
weavers rebel
weavers lull her to sleep
weavers construct the citadel and build a religion around song to continue eternally the lullaby that keeps her sleeping
lullaby fails
haunting begins

[raven oak]

i cant remember if its stated to be the real surface

[idle veldt]

Do pilgrims do the platforming like hornet canonically

[pastel timber]

yes

[lethal burrow]

you have the Citadel being created on here twice?

[raven oak]

they have to do it with no tools or abilities probably

thats why most die

[proud swan]

Same

[pastel timber]

well, proto citadel and then citadel proper, its a civilisation it builds up over time

[lethal burrow]

Express the divide between the two

[raven oak]

oh yeah was citadel created by gms or weavers? im fuzzy a bit on the timeline

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers so it's spoken

[proud swan]

Im not sure. Mask maker seems pretty sure in saying citadel was made bt weavers with a sole purpose

[pastel timber]

gms arrives -> civilisation "begins" with the weavers -> over time they get more technologically advanced -> threefold song and stuff made sometime after the rebellion or during

theres no clear "divide" but the citadel didnt get built overnight

[raven oak]

yeah i remember that, its just weird that gms would be in pharloom for a while and not build anything til the weavers did it

it would be weird for gms to build citadel then weavers somehow repurpose it to try to put gms in stasis

[pastel timber]

if we assume that the first sinners "sin of apostasy" was the realisation that they werent gms's true daughters, then we can extrapolate that before the rebellion the citadel was mostly constructed, since metalworking and silk seals and the slab all existed at the time of imprisonment, as well of the concept of "sinning"
so if the citadel was built up specifically to keep gms sleeping, then the mask maker dialogue likely just means that they leveraged the citadels designs to turn it into a big music box to continue the lullaby

[proud swan]

Citadel is then a cage. Because they put gms to sleep in the xradle

[raven oak]

also is it stated in the game the purposes for the conductors in the high halls?

[proud swan]

Slab was probably constructed for imprisonning first sinner etc though

[raven oak]

it says they lead the future of pharloom but thats pretty vague

[pastel timber]

the threefold song one liner implied they were like the "rulers" that approved or ordered things to be done, literally "conducting" pharloom

[raven oak]

so they were just like managers for the rest of the workers?

i thought it would be more deep because the guy who we get some of the song from says the jobs weight is heavy

[pastel timber]

oh wait youre totally right, first sinner, makes me wonder then if gms herself was the one designating sins, or if the weavers were the ones to arrest the masses

[pastel timber]

ruler of a nation can be stressful ig? it does sound like it has a horrendous physical toll though given the iv drip and that dialogue

[raven oak]

i guess that makes sense yeah

[proud swan]

My headcanon is that some weavers rebelled, some got punished, some punished weavers that stayed with gms (like Widow)

[pastel timber]

thatd explain how widow got staked in the back too actually, if the rebelling weavers punished her for not joining them

[raven oak]

is it stated what widow did to get punished + why widow became mad/allied with gms

[proud swan]

Yeah that makes much more sense to me than gms punishing her somehow. She is loyal to gms to the end. Handicapping a weaver and its ability to weave silk seems very weavery

[lethal burrow]

More to this is dialogue from the shamans: Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her."

the "them" that was bound to be beneath her seems to be talking about the land itself, not the other people's

also this is the only dialogue in the game that I can find that makes a clear reference to grandmother silk being in control of the citadel: hornet says "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[left rivet]

Ok

[raven oak]

yeah its weird how its both implied that weavers and gms made citadel and took over pharloom, maybe exactly who did it doesnt matter but just that they ended up doing it?

[pastel timber]

gms is also directly referred to as the "monarch" several times, though thats slightly less direct

[proud swan]

There is another

[pastel timber]

"gms and weavers" are practically the same force before the weavers rebelled anyway

[raven oak]

yeah makes sense

[pastel timber]

who physically put the bricks on the ground is another question, but assumedly it was the goal of both parties

[left rivet]

Maybe

[muted lantern]

does gourmand and his servant die in act 3?

[raven oak]

the equivalent for me wanting to see city of tears + white palace during its prime is now me wanting to see coral forest + bilewater/putrified ducts/blasted steps before citadel

[pastel timber]

im still thinking about the first sinner cutscene, with the strand of silk going straight into the weavers head, combined with the "gifting minds to the monarch" about bugs imbuing silk into themselves, it almost seems that gms is directly linked to the minds of the weavers (weaker over distance since its physical silk, it has a range)

[proud swan]

Conductor ballador states that weavers stole the crown and the "one monarch" is definitely gms

[muted lantern]

Do you guys think lace still contains void or was she completly freed from in sister of the void ending.

[pastel timber]

praying for that for DLC 🙏

[raven oak]

might be how easily it seems for gms to find the weaverspawn even if they are like 1/8 weaver

[raven oak]

same

[pastel timber]

the knight wouldve drained it out of her it had like full control at that point

[lethal burrow]

she was still loyal to grand silk, and so she was punished.

Additionally, there's a theory that she was mutilated how she was to prevent her from freeing grandmother silk.

[edgy nebula]

i wish silksong explained more about the karak empire

[pastel timber]

that being said actually what do we think chat DNM or p5 ending canon?

[raven oak]

hm interesting

i was wondering if the name widow was significant but ig not

[muted lantern]

p5 has more evidence generally, as we don't see thks shade behind the knight which implies they arent in the void yet, and we see flashes of shade lord.

[pastel timber]

surface level analysis "its about loss and she lost her heritage, her silk"

[raven oak]

i think its left vague, both void given form/focus were shown + specific details to the dnm one dont necessarily transfer over

the everbloom/delicate flower is just shown more in p5 ending

[muted lantern]

it was the perfect time to have khan be the lobster lancer

[foggy fractal]

I gotta lowkey make another fake screenshot now

[pastel timber]

agreed, but i do wonder if that means thk is alive wandering around somewhere canonically, youd think itd return to the void along with all its siblings anyway

[lethal burrow]

we do know that the Weavers fancied themselves gods before the bugs of the land after their imprisoning of the mother,

[edgy nebula]

he will never be the lobster lancer

[muted lantern]

i like to think it's alive somewhere, personally i have a headcannon but thats gonna be saved for if i ever feel like writing fanfic

[pastel timber]

they probably got that "domination instinct" hornet mentions from gms

[raven oak]

i wonder if they just didnt want to deal with thk possibly being in silksong so they made the hk canon ending more vague

[lethal burrow]

this makes me wonder, I had assumed the Weavers left the land and gave rule to the common bugs after they realized grandmother silk was waking up... but this implies there was a period after the Weaver's no longer ruled where the conductors were ruling, and the grandmother silk stuff wasn't happening, in fact, it probably makes sense that the Weavers weren't around when the whiteward stuff happened

[pastel timber]

yeah i 100% think its left intentionally vague so DNM or p5 could be canon, im just biased to the p5 ending cause its cool

[raven oak]

yeah p5 ending is cool but imo the buildup to the dnm ending is unmatched

[pastel timber]

isnt there a line of dialogue somewhere that basically directly states the weavers "passed the entire burden onto the bugs of the citadel"

[raven oak]

P5 is just a pantheon

[proud swan]

Man still cant believe they removed all the water from coral gorge

[pastel timber]

there will never be a game ever that beats the chills of "challenge what? the sun?"

[lethal burrow]

but for what reason

[edgy nebula]

damn bugs drank it all, get #teamwater on this NOW

[pastel timber]

well they all died

[raven oak]

yeah its pretty sad especially seeing the old maps of pharloom with the whole area

[dry bridge]

do we think verdania became lost because of the citadel, because the princes hunted the pale stag, both, or a secret other cause, chat?

[raven oak]

makes sense tho with the story

[pastel timber]

theyre spiders not immortal someones gotta come after them

[lethal burrow]

If they all died, then how did some of them end up in other places? Also, why did they die?

[lethal burrow]

oh ig but like what specifically

[raven oak]

didnt the green prince say that verdania fell much before the citadel existed?

[pastel timber]

they died cause they were old, pharloom is more ancient than hallownest, the ones in other places were descendants, some pure some not

[lethal burrow]

Citadel

[dry bridge]

that would make the green prince excessively old, wouldn't it?

[pastel timber]

hornets dialogue pretty much directly says defiance against gms is what destroyed it

[lethal burrow]

yes

well,

He's old regardless

[pastel timber]

hes just really lucky, given all the four leaf clovers

[raven oak]

yeah i just remember something else that he said like “these caves caved in a long time ago” or smth

i cant remember the details

[lethal burrow]

Then how did widow survive so long?

[dry bridge]

I mean, I guess karmelita is probably of a similar age and his heart was strong enough to power the big spell like all the other rulers, so him being old makes sense, just kinda surprising given he's still seemingly in his prime

[lethal burrow]

he's speaking that the world was going to die because of the void stuff in act three, but his land fell long before

[proud swan]

I understand it differently. To me conductors were obeying weavers

[pastel timber]

heard a theory widow was the "weaver in quarter part" from the city of steel "staked to service" implying her arrival was much more recent, weavers have long lifespans after all, just not long enough to span from the beginning of gms's reign to now i suppose

[raven oak]

oh yeah that makes sense

[lethal burrow]

A lot of widows dialogue makes it seem like she's a pure weaver.

[pastel timber]

oh really? i'll have to go over it again

[raven oak]

yeah i think the hunters journal entry just says widow is a weaver

[pastel timber]

weavers kinda put themselves in as the deities of pharloom given the effigies and pilgrims prayers to them, the conductors are always gonna "obey their gods" whatever they do, doesnt necessarily mean it was direct orders

[pastel timber]

"looks like a weaver, with its mask forcibly removed" i think

[raven oak]

yeah something like that

[lethal burrow]

one pretty damning line is "Of the first... the last..."

[raven oak]

yeah unless hornet is somehow really wrong widow is def a weaver

[lethal burrow]

She's of the first Weaver's, but she's the last that remains

[muted lantern]

weavers seem to be long lived, if they weren't hornet wouldn't be half weaver, because weavers are all female so any ancestors of the first weavers would be half weaver, unless they reproduce asexually.

[lethal burrow]

I don't really know any other interpretation for that line

[raven oak]

is it confirmed that all weavers are female?

[pastel timber]

you might be right actually

but then how is widow still alive

[muted lantern]

weavers all refer to eachother as sisters in their text

[lethal burrow]

we never see or hear of a male one that's as far as that goes

[raven oak]

oh ok

also was there anything about the king of deepnest or the shrine thing in deepnest in silksong?

i remember seeing speculation that it had pale oil but that doesn't really make sense

[lethal burrow]

The shrine thing is the king of deep nest. I think at this point we can say that pretty well.

[pastel timber]

that was my next question actually if all weavers are female then what the hell was herrahs husband

[proud swan]

Staked to service and taken beneath the city of steel is CRAZY though. What the hell does that mean. And what is staked to service

[lethal burrow]

well, he was part of the old cast of deepnest anyways he was not a weaver

[pastel timber]

no way king of deepnest was a pale being

[proud swan]

What no

[craggy smelt]

I interpreted that as what happened with Widow, i.e. pins driven into the body and made to submit to Silk
pretty sure that particular Weaver was Widow

[lethal burrow]

stacked to serve just means that they were doing some service.

You can read it as "tasked to serve"

It seems to me that somebody who is partly Weaver was working beneath the city of steel in some capacity doing something or other and then the citadel came and took them.

[raven oak]

also who even were the people in deepnest before the weavers? the only other creatures there are like those guys that burrow into the ground and the flying guys that spawn them

like what would the king even be from

[craggy smelt]

local people, the 'Beast' tribe
the king was said to be of an 'honored caste'

[muted lantern]

would'nt that be loam? or is the city of steel another place than the citadel

[raven oak]

who is in the beast tribe tho? are they just all implied to have died and are unseen?

[pastel timber]

there are so many masks and skulls littered all over hallownest, dozens upon dozens of extinct species, they couldve been literally anything

[raven oak]

ig yeah

[lethal burrow]

A lot of widows dialogue makes it seem like she's a pure weaver.

particularly this line "Of the first... the last..."

She's of the first Weavers but she's the last that remains, or else I can't think of any other interpretation for that line.

[raven oak]

you would think that there would be more evidence of them being there cause most other groups in hallownest are accounted for

but maybe they just disappeared for some reason

[lethal burrow]

The city of steel is outside of pharloom

[pastel timber]

she calls gms "mother" too which implies direct descendant

[lethal burrow]

yeah

[muted lantern]

lace is technically hornets aunt btw

[foggy fractal]

no heres the full dialogue

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

first its talking about a weaver, second City of Steel is captalized

[craggy smelt]

is that line about Widow herself though? maybe she's talking about Hornet - the last of a line of first gen Weavers
all the rest of her lines are gushing about Silk

[pastel timber]

i mean there is all of deepnest, weavers kinda hijacked it i suppose

[noble magnet]

City of Steel gives me OFF vibes

[lethal burrow]

depends if you think the Weavers are actual daughters or not

[muted lantern]

at least gms called them daughters

[raven oak]

yeah maybe the weavers presence just overtook the previous people who were in it

[pastel timber]

this sounds like they were staked to service in pharloom, likely producing silk for whatever they want silk for, after taking them from the city of steel

[lethal burrow]

how could it be about hornet? "of the first... the last..." I don't know how that would apply

[spare pendant]

It's possibly a different place

[raven oak]

i still wish the deepnest shrine had more explanation cause its still kind of just ominously there

[muted lantern]

we get a flashback in the dlc and it's just where herrah stores her weed

[pastel timber]

team cherry like putting Contraptions all over the place

[lethal burrow]

idk we know the king of deepnest died. I think it's fair to say that's his corpse inshrined

[craggy smelt]

"of the first [generation of Weavers, i.e. Herrah] the last [descendant]"
Hornet is also called the last of her line.

[pastel timber]

yeah my bets on sarcophagus

[muted lantern]

herrah totally ate her husband

[pastel timber]

they pretty much all are in the commandments in the cradle

[lethal burrow]

but why would widow care that she's the last of her line? Why is that notable?

[pastel timber]

thats why they call her the beast

[raven oak]

yeah i know its just weird that his corpse is in a strange shrine thats held up in the air

normally tombs are more grounded or look like the weaver ability things we see in silksong

[muted lantern]

also it seems characters might exchange their masks at different points in their life, like big changes in identity or station. because herrah probably wore a standard weaver mask before she became dreamer/queen of deepnest

[pastel timber]

thinking of the weaver things though, corpses preserved as almost stone statues, thats what we're seeing with that shrine maybe

maybe the old king of deepnest really was a trilobite

[craggy smelt]

she's pretty excited in general when Hornet shows up, the child of 'weaver and wyrm'
also, wait a second, is Widow's needolin dialogue even canon? you can't have the needolin until after you fight her

[muted lantern]

picturing herrah taking a bite out of a trilobite like a hamburger

[pastel timber]

apparently styx, the silkeater maker, has a hidden room if you silk soar up into the dreamcatcher, with a pile of masks wondering who he "wants to be"

[muted lantern]

oh fr? that actually helps this theory a lot

[brisk thunder]

and his counterpart in steelsoul mode

[lethal burrow]

widow also has dialogue saying "Our mother... true... Our light divine..."

and "Spawn of those who dared to flee. She has found her way home... at last.
How fine her shell, and Silk, and claw... For you, mother... let me claim her all for you!"

I don't know that a descendant would call grandmother silk "mother" or that a descendant who only came here afterwards would you speak about this land and the old Weavers in such a way.

The pieces don't fit to me

[pastel timber]

i havent checked it myself but it certianly does give a lot more substance to mask makers (either ones) words

[muted lantern]

I wonder if getting a new mask would be part of a transition in the hk universe

[pastel timber]

it does seem contradictory
if a weaver could survive that long why didnt the others
if this is a newer weaver why is it so zealous to its "mother"

[raven oak]

im hoping the pretty much guaranteed steel soul part of upcoming dlc will also help flesh out the lore, with the masters and what not

[lethal burrow]

also is the fact that widow looks pretty full weaver all things consider, especially compared to hornet.

[raven oak]

im not nearly confident though at silksong to complete steel soul yet

[pastel timber]

i hope not cause one of the mask makers says a new mask obliterates your old mind and memories

[lethal burrow]

this is going under the assumption that the other Weaver's died to age.

It could be that it had something to do with the haunting and that's why widow survived

[pastel timber]

i already did 100% it is not worth it save yourself </3

[raven oak]

yeah i hope then that the steel soul part of upcoming dlc isn't just in steel soul, it would take me way too long to get to it myself

[muted lantern]

it could be metaphorical, change is destruction and all that, if styx is changing his masks a lot and herrah changed her mask it doesnt seem like it does literally wipe your brain.

reminds me of isa's line in in stars and time

[foggy fractal]

just wait for godhome lowkey

[raven oak]

i wonder how they will do godhome in silksong, like will it be the same guys and will canonize p5 or dnm or will it be something else entirely

[brisk thunder]

godhome with double beastfly

[raven oak]

because if they include godseekers they kind of have to make either p5 or dnm canon

[craggy smelt]

I did get to wondering if the Weavers wore the big round masks to possibly conceal hybrid traits

[sacred heath]

so like
what’s up with mister mushroom

[pastel timber]

oh wait no hold on youre onto something
"daughter of a distand land, we who remain have waited long"
"bind our strength to yours"
"reclaim the future of our haunted kingdom"

the weavers intentionally went into whatever hibernation/death/stasis they dead to preserve their strength, preventing the haunting from taking it (hence having to outsource weaver descendants to steal strength from), and allowing a savious to come and bind their strength and use it to depose gms, and widow got away because she wasnt affected by the haunting because her silk was suppressed

[lethal burrow]

The masks seem natural, judging by the lost sinner cut scene

[muted lantern]

herrah has a different mask than other weavers tho, and we know shes a full weaver

[raven oak]

idk, when i discovered him in the pale lake i was like "fungal wastes in silksong??" then realized it was mister mushroom

the dialogue is somehow more vague than in hk

[pastel timber]

you use the everbloom to swim in void
other side of the big abyss lake theres a hidden room
inside theres a weathered mask coated in void
you use your needolin
void-doused godhome
team cherry hire me

[lethal burrow]

maybe she was born without a mask like the people the mask maker serve? Or maybe she just gave birth and transformed.

[craggy smelt]

then I wonder why the later masks are intact spheres, and not broken/spikey like Sinner's
maybe made in homage of her
(and that raises further questions about Widow's mask being 'forcibly' removed... ouch)

[pastel timber]

interesting though that that mask is incomplete at the top, every other weaver is fully rounded

[raven oak]

was herrah stated to be weaver in hk? it feels like to me that they just made it that she was a weaver after hk

she looks so different from every single other weaver

[lethal burrow]

that's because they did :)

[muted lantern]

its a bit of a retcon, wasn't much besides the eyes to imply weaverhood

[raven oak]

yeah thats what i thought

[muted lantern]

it does make sense however, because herrah was always meant to be a spider

people just assumed she was a different kind of spider bc she looked different

since her daughter always had silk powers

kinda a spider thing

[raven oak]

yeah, her design is probably just from the other dreamers looking the same and not thinking that she would be a weaver

[lethal burrow]

The diver pharlid variation looks round, the other one looks like a sharp head

[pastel timber]

we know that bugs change form for tons of reasons, like herrah becoming much larger after going into her dreamer coma, or thk being trained up to like 6 times the size, so her becoming queen could come with a metamorphosis of sorts

[raven oak]

wasn't the hidden station in ancient basin originally hornets room or something with silk though? and that would imply that she was part weaver initially in hk too?

[pastel timber]

the divers eyes are certainly less aggressive too

[lethal burrow]

no? I think it was just the pale kings hidden ride over.

ya know because of the harrah deal thing and the Weaver's helping with the seal of binding for the whole dreamer radiance hollow knight ritual

[muted lantern]

it is interesting that spiders seem to be special unnatural beings in this universe, which makes sense considering spiders are not actually insects, they are arachnids, this makes me really wanna see what a scorpion is like

[raven oak]

i thought i remember something about it being a cut hornets room before the hidden station was added to the game

ill look it up

[cloud mesa]

in early versions of hollow knight there were some glitched rooms left in the files

[pastel timber]

well the pharlids are normal enough bugs its their divine silk put into them by god that makes them special

[cloud mesa]

is that what ur referring to?

[muted lantern]

pharlids don't have 8 legs tho, but it seems weavers do

which is the key difference between insects and arachnids

[raven oak]

wasn't it an actual room? or was it just glitched

[spark valve]

Pharlids are called arachnids in the journal

[muted lantern]

damn fr? there goes that

bummer would have been a neat thing to have non insects be special in a way since arachnids and bugs are technically different

[cloud mesa]

this room!

looks vaguely hornet to me

[raven oak]

oh yeah i remember something like that, nice

[muted lantern]

where did she get all those needles lmao

[cloud mesa]

its cut content so prob doesnt apply but its still inresting

[muted lantern]

vespa working day and night to make that shit

[raven oak]

the silk being used by hornet and being in the room i think might imply she was already planned to be part weaver, so maybe herrah was already a weaver at that point in development

[raven oak]

actually yeah, all the hivesteel being poured into that room

[brisk thunder]

hornet’s needle is the only one made with hivesteel？

[lethal burrow]

anyways, what were we talking about again?

[pastel timber]

honestly i really really want to see a "making of" silksong, im so interested in how and what order they pieced its story together

[cloud mesa]

idk i js remembered those cut rooms

[raven oak]

i was speculating when herrah was determined to be weaver by team cherry, cause her design is way different but the silk used by hornet seems to imply that herrah was always a weaver during development

[lethal burrow]

it lives in spirit <3