sk-lore

[sudden pivot]

I think Hornet would get sick of him pretty quickly to be honest, she'd probably see the Ritual's reliance on the nightmares of mortal bugs as sadistic if I had to guess

[dark rune]

rn im thinking "aw the lore doesnt seem as complex as hollow knight's lore" so i cant wait to watch a bunch of mossbag videos and see how im utterly and completely wrong

[edgy nebula]

it's quite complex

[sudden pivot]

I mean there's all the Steel Soul stuff and a lot about the Everbloom and Weavers we dont know, there's a good bit to theorize about, not to mention the Snail Shamans

[ancient dock]

Probably, I don’t think they will get along

[edgy nebula]

im not the biggest lore yapper but ive heard bits and pieces, big story spanning a long frame of time in the universe with good themes

[dark rune]

"Oh! You have that mirror on you! It was from a... failed Grimm, per se."

said grimm, shunning his distant cousin

[ancient dock]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-boss-trobbio-tormented-trobbio-gif-17883716302707040789

[edgy nebula]

trobbio looking at them both far away in the distance with his big eyes like a molerat

[dark rune]

grimm-e-os, now featuring 15% less fruitiness

[ancient dock]

Trobbio and Grimm are similar in the fact that they recruit innocent bugs for their rituals or shows

[edgy nebula]

i made a grimm-ified trobbio sketch earlier today but i deleted it cause it was lowkey lifeless as shit, i might revisit it and enhance the design

[dark rune]

i cant wait for a few years down the line when i can chow down on some silly animations to the likes of Cookie Skip

[sudden pivot]

"He thought his dance could enliven the passion of this Kingdom's dying spirit, a foolish thought, if an entertaining one, to a mortal bug dance is an act of revival, you im sure know better of the Ritual and the Rebirth it brings."

[mental vale]

We need a new form of Trobbio for when he gets therapy

[edgy nebula]

he'll be green this time

[ember river]

Trobbio and Grimm are similar only in the fact that they are performers.
And for Grimm it's just a facade

[dark rune]

hed put on jeans or something and a hoodie

[vague whale]

Cargo Shorts Trobbio

[ancient dock]

That as well

[sudden pivot]

I think Grimm genuinely enjoys dancing :3 I do agree they dont have any actual lore relevance to one another though

[dark rune]

hed revile his old self similarly to if he had dabbed a lot

[mental vale]

I've heard someone compare the Flea Troupe to the Grim Troppe

[dark rune]

new mod idea

[ember river]

I mean, he's kind of the vessel of a dream god so he can choose whichever aesthetic he likes. He probably does like dancing

[ancient dock]

Both Nomad travelers so I can see it

Different reasons though

[mental vale]

And also they do a "Ritual" at some point- even if different vibes

[sudden pivot]

yeah exactly :3 thats why I dont think the whole circus and showman thing is totally a sham I think he probably does actually run it like a Troupe

[ember river]

Could be, the citadel is run as an actual choir in the names of pretty much everything anyways

[dark rune]

i wonder how similar each grimm is to the last

[ancient dock]

Grimm persona is basically he likes being a Showman

[ember river]

I'd say they grow up to be the same, their existence is tied to the Nightmare Heart

[dark rune]

itd be funny if the grimmchild grew up and became a bookstore owner or something

[ember river]

And so they are compelled to its bidding

[edgy nebula]

grimm's persona is that hes a showman, but thats to get people enticed to do the ritual, realistically hes probably just reserved since hes a vessel and not really a guy

[vague whale]

this Grimmchild should clearly be somewhat influenced by the Knight

[edgy nebula]

hes also far less theatrical than the likes of trobbio, partly due to him sounding like a chainsmoker, opposed to trobbio's buttery-smooth voice

[dark rune]

"I'm gonna need you to up the fruitiness or this whole thing won't work."

[ember river]

Maybe they can vary slightly personality wise but they can't probably pick other paths of life

[sudden pivot]

not the case but, it would be funny to imagine every Grimm having his own aesthetic everyone has to follow, like the new one really likes reading so now the Troupe is a travelling library, again definitely not actually is just a funny mental image

[ancient dock]

As long as it serves the nightmare heart I can see them being slightly different in terms of style

[ember river]

That could happen, to be fair

[sudden pivot]

I dont think him having a different personality than the original Grimm is an invalid head canon I just dont think there's any particular evidence towards it

[ember river]

We don't know how long lived each Grimm is

[dark rune]

lol im imagining it like a mean substitute teacher
"The old Grimm let us dance!"
"DO I LOOK LIKE THE OLD GRIMM? NOW GO FIND A PAGE-TURNER!"

[ember river]

Or the troupe bugs

[sudden pivot]

so THIS is why Brumm left the Troupe...

[ember river]

I think one does say they have gone through many kingdoms, though, so it seems each Grimm is still a Troupe Master

[dark rune]

he's illiterate 😔

[ancient dock]

I imagine the cycle happens when the Grimmchild reaches Adolescence

[dark rune]

what happens to the old grimm when the new one grows up

[edgy nebula]

the grimm troupe is lowkey sad as hell

just a higher being playing with toys, enslaving random bugs who'll never leave

[dark rune]

is the nightmare heart the only thing sustaining him?

[ancient dock]

He dies

[sudden pivot]

my presumption is that the Nightmare King has to die every time and in the process the Grimmchild is brought to maturity

[dark rune]

hm

[edgy nebula]

doesnt the grimmchild eat him or something

[sudden pivot]

it eats the flames of Nightmares which Grimm is immbued with so it does also snack on him to upgrade

[ancient dock]

No we actually don’t see what happens after we beat the troupe

[hidden crater]

I was so confused when I found this little shit instead of the huntress

[ancient dock]

Did the quest so I didn’t see it

[sudden pivot]

im pretty sure at the end of Nightmare King fight the Knight just straight up kills him, and him dying in any way is part of the Ritual to grow up the Grimmchild

[sudden pivot]

yum yummy yum

[ancient dock]

I hope the hunteress survied though

[hidden crater]

Apparently if you dont do the broodfeast, in act 3 this guy replaces the huntress

[ancient dock]

Yeah

[sudden pivot]

she's not the child sits in her hollowed-out corpse

also she says her children will eat her if you dont bring the guts

[ancient dock]

Only if you don’t do the quest

If you do the quest you don’t see her corpse

[sudden pivot]

ohhhh I misunderstood sorry I miss-saw what you were responding to

[dark rune]

i think the only way we get a directly godhome dlc is if hornet can enter dreams somehow or if team cherry adds some other way

[ancient dock]

Needolin is dream entering

Or mind entering

[sudden pivot]

Song of the Deep? but also I really want a Land of Storms DLC more than just the Godseeker coming to Pharloom

[edgy nebula]

the humble elegy of the deep

[dark rune]

maybe once you finish act 3 you can go to the left of the blasted steps where hornet refuses to go

[dark rune]

im not really sure if that is dream-entering though

it's confusing what it is

[edgy nebula]

im hoping for dlc we elegy of the deep the snail shaman shells and we upgrade the elegy to unlock more of the past versions of the maps

[sudden pivot]

also isnt there only one physical Godseeker? like aren't the rest all in her mind? so I dont think it'd even be possible for another one to show up in Pharloom?

[edgy nebula]

petty sure it is, green prince seems pretty conscious, akin to something like godseeker, when we use it on him

[dark rune]

all the snail shamans except 1 were dead in hk, now boom 3 alive ones

[sudden pivot]

yeah but like it's never stated there's only 1 Snail Shaman

we get a whole backstory sequence for the 1 Godseeker

I guess its never stated either for her? but I feel like its really heavily implied

again what with her being the only one in the backstory

also about Snail Shamans

so were all the ones in Hallownest related? are all Snail Shamans related? how does a Snail Shaman come into being? they seem void beings but they also refer to themselves as mortal, generally just what the hell is up with them?

[craggy smelt]

they probably have an extended family, occupying many lands

they aren't Void beings, they just have black bodies and employ different magics, including Void

[sudden pivot]

the Crystalized one also appears to explode into Void particles

[craggy smelt]

we learn in Silksong that they can summon the Void with certain spells
that's probably what's happening with the snails who explode like that

[edgy nebula]

headcanon: the caretaker shaman is the bone mound shaman's 78th cousin twice removed

[hexed stump]

Did we figure out who orders hornet’s abduction at the start of the game? And who sends the butterfly thing that helps her escape?

[sudden pivot]

...yeah? I dont see how that contradicts the idea of them possibly being composed of void

[clever grove]

Oh boy we're having another void conversation

[sudden pivot]

GMS orders it, we dont really know bout the Butterfly afaik

[edgy nebula]

the butterfly was either random or controlled by lace, probably

[sudden pivot]

like I dont think they definitely are void but I think it's worth considering

[hexed stump]

Did the weavers trap her in the cocoon and escape?

[edgy nebula]

i dont think snail shamans are directly made of void but their connection is undoubtedly true

[sudden pivot]

basically, the music generated by the Citadel is actually magic music that keeps her asleep

[edgy nebula]

yes

[hexed stump]

How come she’s still in control then?

[edgy nebula]

hes trying to wake up now that the conductors (the ones helping her stay asleep) have died out, iirc

[hexed stump]

She should just be sleeping forever no?

[sudden pivot]

she was able to ensnare Pilgrims that had lots of her Silk in their shells from their ancestors Whiteward experiments, the more she took over the less music there was the more she woke up the more she could take over

[ancient dock]

GMS orders Hornet abduction and lace frees her

[hexed stump]

Hmm

Lace frees her? Hmm very interesting

[hexed stump]

How do we know that lace frees her?

[ancient dock]

Lace is rebellious against GMS and hates how she was brought into existence

[hexed stump]

It’s kinda weird that she frees her and then fights her soon after

[sudden pivot]

she wants to kill Hornet rather than letting GMS absorb her

[hidden crater]

Who looks more drop kickable

[hexed stump]

[ancient dock]

If you skip the deep docks fight you meet her near the between the cliff near blasted steps

[sudden pivot]

Caretaker, easy

[clever grove]

So does lace have control over all of the butterfly lumaflies?

[hexed stump]

I like the caretaker in his citadel outfit. He’s so cute.

[ancient dock]

She kind of confirms she frees hornet to meddle with GMS plans

[sudden pivot]

my assumption is that those are made of silk and she can make those herself and the ones she makes she controls

[hexed stump]

I see

[clever grove]

Yeah that makes sense

[teal finch]

a good amount of the butterfly lumaflies are straight up bug souls though

[sudden pivot]

oh? I didn't realize that, were is that stated :O

[teal finch]

relic dialogue

[sudden pivot]

any chance you could quote it for me? ^^;

[silk dirge]

secret room in whiteward

[sudden pivot]

just so I dont have to look to find it

[silk dirge]

i remember looking for that relic and that secret room was genuinely unnerving

the dead bodies felt a lot more creepy than soul sanctum

whiteward felt in general a lot creepier than soul sanctum

[clever grove]

Is silk equivalent to soul? I feel like I remember reading dialogue about that

[ancient dock]

Both are similar though

[lean temple]

Silk is woven from soul

[clever grove]

Oh gotcha

[ancient dock]

Yes silk is made from Soul

[silk dirge]

i think probably it has to do with team cherry just getting better at worldbuilding

[sudden pivot]

disagree personally, Soul Sanctums ost does it more for me personally and while the designs aren't as creepy I find the lore of Follies and Mistakes way scarier

[hexed stump]

Agreed, the music in there is spooky

[silk dirge]

soul sanctum music was never really that scary to me

[edgy nebula]

i wish we got so much more expansion on khann, hes just so badass

[silk dirge]

compared to the whiteward track

i just listen to soul sanctum for the crazy drop into soul master i love that

[hexed stump]

Also, the teleporting jerks are so annoying

[sudden pivot]

it doesn't feel scarier to me but for me personally I find it more unnerving and creepy, it makes me feel like "this is a bad place, I shouldn't be here" in a way the Whiteward ost just doesn't do for me, that much is totally subjective though and I absolutely respect your opinion!!! ^^

[clever grove]

My favorite creepy track is Nosk

[silk dirge]

idk nothing in hk for me felt as creepy as whiteward

[ancient dock]

Whiteward is also a smaller sect compared to Soul sanctom

[hexed stump]

I still didn’t get a satisfying answer for why the knight saves hornet and lace

[silk dirge]

deepnest has a very similar ambience sound

[ancient dock]

So it has less opportunity to build up atmosphere

[silk dirge]

and it didnt hit the same

[sudden pivot]

the enemy designs with the faces totally enveloped by Silk dregs is definitely much more striking visually to me

[silk dirge]

yeah for sure

[ancient dock]

Personally I prefer the music in Soul Sanctom the orchestra does it for me

[clever grove]

At least for me I think the Knight cares about Hornet. She's their half sister after all

[silk dirge]

i guess also when you realize the task of the furnaces we saw in the trailer once along with the bugs of a definitely not sus shape by them

[teal finch]

there are several pieces of text/gameplay elements that confirm the flies are souls:

• when defeating many cogwork robots you can literally see a butterfly fly away from their corpse

• Relic Dialogue that talks about how the cogwork robots are made:

Last edict of the Conductors. "And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given. The perfect, unfaltering voice."

• Relic dialogue that implies weak bugs are turned into "light":

Tattered decree of the Citadel. "Bug of voice grown hoarse or shell fallen frail, you have been selected for duty most sacred. Become our light, our guide in darkness, that others worthy may climb to join the holy song."

• green prince tells hornet that the cogwork dancers are modeled after his lover and also that his soul was used to make them active

The dancers... they were the last free act of my partner... Always hopeful. Always naive. His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould.

[sudden pivot]

"BEAST OF THE SHADOWS
BANE OF THE SOUL
FIEND OF THE CORPSE MASK
CREATURE OF WOE"

MOTI's Hollow Knight covers are so underrated

[ancient dock]

The Knight has grown to show respect for Hornet and generally considers her a Ally

[clever grove]

Oh yeah I listened to that one. MOTI has some pretty good HK covers

[ember river]

The thing of the whiteward is how sudden it starts after a long silence in an elevator

[hexed stump]

So he’s also an imperfect vessel then

[edgy nebula]

hope they do ss covers, id kill to see crust king khann or cogwork dancers with lyrics

[sudden pivot]

SAME omg

[ancient dock]

That’s was always the point

[clever grove]

Yes the Knight isn't hollow

[novel night]

all the vessels were imperfect im pretty sure

[sudden pivot]

theres tons and tons and tons of confirmations of that yeah

Steel Soul Jinn literally says "so it has a will...?"

[hexed stump]

[clever grove]

Imo it goes beyond respect to genuine intimacy since they're siblings

[hexed stump]

I’m still mad that hornet never says shaw in SS

[ember river]

And the void heart also claims that the void is unified under the bearer's will

[hexed stump]

Maybe in dlc

[ember river]

Akiiro

[clever grove]

At least she says GARAMA

[novel night]

1/10 game unplayable

[ancient dock]

I don’t think being Siblings has much to do with it cuase Hornet killed other vessels in the past

[hexed stump]

[edgy nebula]

of course it's unplayable, there are too many bugs

[novel night]

true..

[edgy nebula]

i literally saw hundreds of bugs before i even got through the first cutscene.....

[sudden pivot]

pretty sure the Knight starts feeling that way after they realize theyr'e siblings yeah, I think thats implied by Nosk's transformation in P5 after having acquired the Void Heart

[clever grove]

Well yes but the Knight is different. Especially if this takes place after the events of HK, the Knight proved themself worthy to Hornet

[hexed stump]

Hornet knows from the beginning that the vessels are her siblings no?

[novel night]

i thought the implication for that was that nosk tried to play this trick on hornet once too lol

[sudden pivot]

yeah yeah im talking about from Ghost's perspective and how they feel about her :3

[hexed stump]

Ghost as in the knight?

[sudden pivot]

no Nosk takes the form of who you care about, it just couldn't do that for Ghost since they had their memories wiped

[sudden pivot]

yeah yeah popular fandom name for them

[novel night]

ic ic

[hexed stump]

Interesting

[sudden pivot]

comes from Hornet calling them the Ghost of Hallownest

[hexed stump]

So the knight only cares about himself

[clever grove]

Not necessarily

[sudden pivot]

at the time genuinely yeah, I dont really think it started having much compassion until regaining its memories, thats just my take on it though and the Knight's personality is a subject of lots of contention

[clever grove]

They had their memories wiped and don't regain it until ||the birthplace cutscene ||

[lean temple]

I see it more as Nosk literally didn't know what else to do so just copied the Knight

[ancient dock]

I think Knight just see Hornet as a ally and respect her time being Hollownest sentinel, want to help her succeed

[sudden pivot]

I saw it as the Knight's desire for self-preservation being it's largest motivator prior to Void Heart (which makes sense to me as it's drawn to the Temple of the Black Egg and so it's goal is to get there alive)

[clever grove]

I can see where you're coming from and I respect your opinion. It's just my personal hc that they have a closer bond

[lean temple]

I mean we can't know for sure, but not a bad idea

[ancient dock]

I guess it really no canon explanation so anything works

[sudden pivot]

yeah yeah im not trying to disprove your idea or anything just sharing my head canon as well X3

do y'all think Ghost grieves Quriell? like do you think it genuinely liked him? I imagine so :3

[clever grove]

Ooh I like that! Trying to keep itself as hollow as possible to contain the infection

[ancient dock]

I think he respects Quriell as an ally he helped him with monomon

[clever grove]

I don't know that we get much insight into that. Quirrel thought highly of the Knight so it certainly could have been reciprocated

[sudden pivot]

yeah we really dont, honestly it's direct family members are really the only people we have any clue of the Knight's opinions on, I really like to imagine it initally sees Quirrel as a means to an end but eventually after learning of the reality of the situation, and realizing Quirrel was bound to a tragic duty same as itself and it's siblings, I like to imagine it feels a bit of guilt for Quirrel's passing at least in the Dream no More/Embrace the Void timelines

[clever grove]

Friendly reminder to please be careful with misgendering the Knight. They're nonbinary

[sudden pivot]

agender really but yeah the point is they/them and it/it's :3

[ancient dock]

My bad but at the end of the day it the player character so what gender is how you see it

[clever grove]

Oh sorry is that a different term? I'm not as familiar with agender

[sudden pivot]

in most rpgs that is the case but HK isnt a rpg, the mc's gender and other attributes is set in canon

[clever grove]

Well the implication is that vessels weren't created with a gender because that would taint its hollow state

[ancient dock]

Vessel are genderless because void consume their bodies

[nimble kayak]

What were the Choruses created for?

[ancient dock]

The mind however is meant to be that of the player

[sudden pivot]

non-binary just means you identify as something other than a man or a woman, agender just means you have no gendered aesthetics, values, or general traits whatsoever

[edgy stone]

Hey does anyone have footage of stynx nest room?

[sudden pivot]

were it a rpg that would be true, but this isn't an rpg, Ghost has their own thoughts seperate from the players

[edgy stone]

I just learned about it but I cant be bothered to go all the way to him to go and see it

[nimble kayak]

?

[clever grove]

Guardians of the Citadel sent to hunt the Pinstresses

[ancient dock]

Yeah but it very subtle to the point is non existent or subjective

[clever grove]

Gotcha. Thank you!

[ancient dock]

None of its thoughts are out right said

[nimble kayak]

Please elaborate

[sudden pivot]

I would recommend getting it anyways since he makes Silk Eaters for you, otherwise it'd probably be fastest to just record a snipit of someone's playthrough on yt

[edgy stone]

Oh not him himself

There is a secret area above him

[sudden pivot]

ohhhh gotcha, I didn't know that! :D

[maiden meteor]

probably not their direct purpose but one was certainly used for that

[manic pewter]

oh i didnt know that either

[edgy stone]

You need silksoar for it but I never tried so just learned it

[sudden pivot]

do you mean the Sentinels?

[manic pewter]

i can go get footage rn if you like, im at greymoor bell beast atm

[lean temple]

No the big robots, the Chorus robots

[ancient dock]

My head canon is that the Knight respects those who helps it on their journey to the black egg/ Nailmaster blacksmith Hornet etc

[clever grove]

No I mean the machines made by the Citadel like the Fourth Chorus. We know there's more because you can see another one in Cogwork Core

[winged trench]

Im getting the impression that the gilded bugs are godseekers or at least the same species of bug

[nimble kayak]

How do you know it was sent to hunt the Pinstress?

[maiden meteor]

Clearly Knight respects everyone it gives Flower to

[winged trench]

The one in far fields has her pin in its neck

[edgy stone]

Would be awesome thank you, use the needolin in yhe room as well if you can

[maiden meteor]

Seamstress was the one to disable it it would seem

[ancient dock]

Even the Godseeker

[sudden pivot]

sure its subjective and there's lots of different theories to be made of it, im just pointing out that the Knight isn't a blank-slate character and while you can certainly argue what it's thoughts are one can't impose their own thoughts onto it like with a Pokemon protag or something

[lean temple]

Seamstress was in the same order as Pinstress at one point

[nimble kayak]

Okay but how do we know it's not just that it was aggressive and she had to put it down? Why hunting her?

[sudden pivot]

ohhhh okay gotcha gotcha :3

[winged trench]

The vessels all being imperfect is a pretty big part of the story of hollow knight

[lean temple]

Pinstress says the Citadel turned on them

[maiden meteor]

Yeah, also dead one in Bilewater

[clever grove]

The Seamstress, who is one of the three sisters that used to be a Pinstress, left her pin lodged in the Fourth Chorus. You can see it before you fight it

[ancient dock]

Yeah at most we know it has thoughts but those thoughts are subjective to what the player thinks

[winged trench]

If i had to guess the big robots were just made to generally hunt down enemies of the citadel which they attempted to do to seamstress

[clever grove]

Yeah the Seamstress rebelled against the Citadel

[nimble kayak]

ima be real i thought it was a mining golem at first

[sudden pivot]

to an extent, we cant prove for sure what the Knight thinks but there's plenty of things we can take an evidence-based approach to saying the Knight definitely doesn't think

[clever grove]

Or at least what it does think is very limited

We know it thinks to some extent because none of the vessels were hollow and a pure vessel is supposed to have "no mind to think"

[winged trench]

The knight being a vessel of the player is a good way to show off the point that the vessels all were imperfect. As a player you will inevitably impose your own emotions on to the character

[ancient dock]

It like the tram cart, we know it takes thought to get a ticket to use a tram cart or a mind to open a bank account

[lean temple]

The Citadel turned on their order first
"Our grand Citadel learnt well from the training of Pinstresses past. Then it went and turned those teachings upon us!
Despite our superior skills, our numbers have always been few and their strength overwhelmed.
Of my once revered order, only two of us remain, wormed away in Pharloom's forgotten corners, and my pin-sibling, she's lost herself to more peaceable pursuit." -Pinstress

[ancient dock]

So we know it has thoughts

[sudden pivot]

my assumption is that they served as guardians, the Citadels strongest enforcers, and as an integral part of the Citadels music all at once, the disabled one's Needolin dialogue implies the machines all sang in Chorus until one was called out to a task

I worded that weird, then the rest would continue singing just without that one obviously

[clever grove]

Oh wow very interesting

[winged trench]

Theres also a dead one in putrified ducts

[sudden pivot]

I also believe it's Seamstress who says those with power are not allowed to remain apart from the Citadel, either you devote your strength wholly to it's ends or you are quashed like Kahn, Nyleth, and Karmalita were

[novel night]

i thought this one was just a big version of the guys that drop spikes on you until my friend pointed out the needolin dialogue 💀

[lean temple]

We see that the Sentinels use the arts of the Pinstresses

[sudden pivot]

and also have Lace's counter which is pretty fascinating

[edgy stone]

Oh shit I didnt even register this

[winged trench]

Even lace uses the wanderers nail art

[edgy stone]

What is putrified ducts even supposed to be

That entire area felt the most unnecessary to me

[sudden pivot]

I feel like the name is fairly self explanatory no?

[lean temple]

Water ducts turned rotten from the Citadel's pollution

[winged trench]

The citadel completely appropriated their technique

[edgy stone]

But its so small why not just make it part of bilewater

[lean temple]

Bilewater is also huge on its own, tho I agree ducts is odd

[sudden pivot]

cause the areas have different lore, the Ducts are part of the Citadel Bilewater VERY much so is not

[edgy stone]

It feels completely stale because of the fact bilewater and sinners road share a gimmick with it

[viscid ridge]

Can you access the breakable wall that goes from sinners road to bilewater in act 1?

[winged trench]

Citadel uses putrified ducts to funnel waste into bilewater which in turn polluted sinners road

[viscid ridge]

Like break it from the sinners road side i mean

[ember river]

The ducts are citadel infrastructure, maybe they could make sense as a sub-area of Bilewater, but I don't have much of an issue

[sudden pivot]

I disagree with it feelings stale, the enemies are very uniquely difficult and the ceiling enemies are a super unquie obstacle and platforming element, coure me feeling that way doesn't make your opinion wrong at all :)

[ember river]

I assumed the pollution came from the exhaust organ

[nimble kayak]

The big tentacle guys are based on Rathtars, right?

[sudden pivot]

idk what a Rathar is..

[nimble kayak]

Its a star wars alien

[winged trench]

Idk fully, i feel like it might come from both

[ember river]

Aren't those types of monsters kind of a stereotype from long before star wars vii?

[viscid ridge]

The enemies look cool and all, but im pretty sure putrifief ducts would have been the clam area, i just cant prove it 🤣

[ember river]

Maybe, it could very well filter down

[novel night]

you can go to bilewater in act 1 if thats what youre asking but you cant access the citadel from putrified ducts like that

[nimble kayak]

Iunno, I don't rly know any examples outside that :/

[winged trench]

Tentacle monsters are definitely inspired by half life barnacles

[ember river]

Barnaks are definetely inspired by those

[sudden pivot]

guys I cant believe when god was making earth he referenced bugs from Hollow Knight

[winged trench]

Saw a cogwork dancer the other day

[sudden pivot]

only one?? damn easy encounter

[viscid ridge]

Yeah yeah i know, ive just been wondering if we can actually access bilewater that early, thanks

[clever grove]

Oh so they learned it from the Pinstress. That's cool

[edgy stone]

I wouldve much preferred the barnacle area over ducts

[winged trench]

Fun fact if you access bilewater in act 1 the jailers block the main path

[sudden pivot]

do we think Lace got her counter from the Sentinels or the other way around?

[clever grove]

The other one is dead😔

[novel night]

theres a guy on youtube named cofy that showcases all manners of crazy skips... you can even get double jump before clawline its insane 😭

[sudden pivot]

I mean the Coral area probably would have been like twice the size tbf

[edgy stone]

Sinners road is cool enough and it sucks ass to traverse but bilewater is pretty cool

[viscid ridge]

But dont lose hope, we hear all throughout the game that there is a salty sea next to pharloom, so maybe they'll add the area eventually

[edgy stone]

Ducts is by far the worst out the three

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah thats the guy who made the video about getting to act 2 early through Wisp Thicket right? what a madlad

[winged trench]

Irs crazy how you can complete cogwork core missing practically any movement upgrade lol

[viscid ridge]

Ill check him out thx

[sudden pivot]

for me Wisp Thicket is the area I most wish was larger

and had more variety and lore

[novel night]

YEAH but you have to get double jump first cause they apparently put an invisible wall at the entrance of the area that only goes away once you pick it up 💀

[winged trench]

I like the isolated and small nature of wisp thicket it helps the weird atmosphere of it

[viscid ridge]

I think its the perfect size, it just needs more added to it, like lore and stuff

Yeah wisp thicket is entirely blocked if you dont have DJ

[winged trench]

Wisp thicket gives heavy grimm vibes the same way blasted steps gives godmaster vibes while they both dont have any concrete connections

[viscid ridge]

I doubt that, they seem to worship a false god. But idk what their deal is, they remind me of the flame of frenzy from elden ring

[novel night]

i think its kinda crazy that its the only area that managed to avoid destruction from grandmas silk

maybe they burned it away (?)

[ancient dock]

I think she just learned to parry like hornet

[clever grove]

I think Far Fields is pretty neat

[viscid ridge]

Their still under the hauntung though

[novel night]

oh really

i thought they just attack hornet for the sport of it LOL

[ancient dock]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Lace and Pantom duel time to time

[winged trench]

What could wisp thicket have possibly contributed to the citadel

[viscid ridge]

I just wish we got more lore on phantom

[viscid ridge]

Nothing, wisp thicket bugs seemed like a bunch of blasphemous outcasts

[winged trench]

Maybe they let them live for the sake of protecting another entrance to the citadel

[ancient dock]

Not much needed to be said, Silk daughters where meant to replace the weavers to GMS

[novel night]

her needolin dialogue is so sad 😔

[clever grove]

Omg your pfp is baby Hornet. SO CUTE

[edgy stone]

Wonder if wisp thicket is contrived of runaways from greymoor and the underworks

Its sandwiched between 2 areas that the citadel more or less enslaved

[viscid ridge]

Honestly kinda love phantom more than lace, so sad she died on first meeting 😞

[edgy stone]

Even if the underworkers are doing it willingly under the guide of their religion

[clever grove]

The boss fight is pretty fun too. And I've found myself using the parry skill quite a bit

[craggy smelt]

Wisp Thicket seems like the source of wood for Greymoor construction, it was probably more widespread in the past

[silk dirge]

wisp thicket is what greymoor used to look like

[craggy smelt]

the Citadel's run-off probably turned Greymoor into what it is now

[silk dirge]

yeah

[winged trench]

I thought shellwood was the source of wood in the hk universe

[ancient dock]

Phantom was contempt with dying anyway so Hornet gave her what she wanted a good duel

[clever grove]

The bird enemies in Greymoor are so annoying😭

[silk dirge]

the run away farmers are in sinners road but i wouldnt be surprised if the wisp thicket cult is also related to them

[craggy smelt]

the growths in wisp thicket look like bamboo, maybe that counts as shellwood in holloworld

[clever grove]

I think Zote's weapon is made out of shellwood

[ancient dock]

I think greenery is made from different reasons

[winged trench]

Greenery typically is brought on by higher beings

[ancient dock]

Umm is responsible for queen garden and green path

[viscid ridge]

But based on Nyleths dialogue, she seems to be one of an entire species of Shellwood Seeds, and also indicates that Shellwood makes uo the most of the life in the world

[edgy stone]

Just found out about skynx

Weird creature

I dont think it has any needolin dialouge

[clever grove]

Oh so it's a pretty common material

[ancient dock]

What about moss grotto?

[edgy stone]

Which makes it even more peculiar

[viscid ridge]

Or most of the plantlife to be more specific

[ancient dock]

Who created that?

[clever grove]

I don't think we know

[viscid ridge]

Skynx is probably Styx with a different mask on, we know Styx is a faceless bug and has a ton of masks in his nest

[clever grove]

Same thing with Huntress right?

[viscid ridge]

Moss grotto was the result of the water runoff from the coral forest

I dont think a higher being created it

[edgy stone]

There is a suspiciously shaped stynx like corpse though

[clever grove]

It would be so cool to get a whole area of coral forest in DLC

[edgy stone]

Skynx is either some other sorta deranged bug that stole one of stynx masks or skynx and stynx are part of a wider species alongside hunter

[winged trench]

Thats cool where do they say this

[viscid ridge]

Yeah or maybe skynx is a different bug, but i still think its the same character with a different mask, cause it fits well with normal styxs story

You dont have a screenshot of the corpse do you?

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, maybe skynx stole Styxs mask, cause its pretty much just styxs mask worn upside down, and it seems to eat silk eaters

[winged trench]

Probably just a species

Team cherry really likes killing npc's in steel soul lmao

[edgy stone]

Runt as well

[winged trench]

Yep

I mean thats more obvious

[viscid ridge]

I would like to point out that styx and huntress comparisons, shouldn't be made, cause styx is wearing a mask, thats not what he really looks like

[edgy stone]

Though the stynx multiple mask thing is super weird with skynx having an almost identical name

And the same speech pattern which all 4 share

[winged trench]

Wait they wear multiple masks? When

[edgy stone]

So we coulf assume if given proper names both huntress and runt would also jave a s-ynx name

[viscid ridge]

He is a faceless bug, he doesn't have a face, so he wears multiple masks for different roles

[edgy stone]

Above stynx next there is a grove full of masks and needolin dialouge. Use silksoar

[winged trench]

Oh neat

So much to find in this game its crazy

[edgy stone]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/s/TS0w5MRzAv

[sudden pivot]

where is that stated/shown? I never realized anything like that over a couple different playthroughs :O

[viscid ridge]

Here is styx nest full of masks

[sudden pivot]

oh wow very fascinating, is that the secret Silk SOar area above him?

[edgy stone]

Yeah

[viscid ridge]

When you use your needolin in his nest, he talks about what character he should play, and shows an image of him being completely faceless

[edgy stone]

It alongside skynx make stynx really interesting

Skynx is also significantly dumber than stynx and way more mysterious

[winged trench]

Begs the question if huntress is wearing a mask, though their child is born with the head shape so i would assume not

[edgy stone]

We only get the mask not the body shape at all

[viscid ridge]

Skynx seems more primal than styx

[edgy stone]

Skynx might be a face stealer typa bug like nosk even

Feel like skynz is a pun on skins

[viscid ridge]

No im pretty sure thats the huntress true face, but the comparisons between Huntress and styx still shouldnt be drawn cause their not the same species

[sudden pivot]

I feel like he'd be pretty unique from Nosk cause Nosk doesn't really steal faces, if anything it's power seems to have something to do with Radiance and the dream world

[winged trench]

Hmm yeah 6 legs vs 4

[viscid ridge]

I know styx is the name of the underworld river in greek mythology, but does Skynx have any significance i dont know of?

[edgy stone]

Is that also not the riddle version of huntress?

Ah wait no the light source is from the left so its the game version

[winged trench]

Ok, i think they are a faceless bug pretending to be the same species as huntress to look like a killer

[sudden pivot]

nah, im pretty sure it's just a corruption of Styx's name

[edgy stone]

Yeah its just some sort of impersonator bug

[viscid ridge]

No thats the current version, the riddle version of the huntress seems like she would have been somewhere in greymoor

[edgy stone]

Yeah her room was different and the entrance was on the right

Whem we got the map revealed I thought greyroots location was gonna be huntress

[edgy stone]

I do think the k is intentional to sound like skin

[winged trench]

Original huntress

[sudden pivot]

totally random but on the topic of them my sibling has a theory that Greyroot and White Lady are the same species

[viscid ridge]

Or no, this looks kinda like far fields or hunters march, maybe she would have originally been in hunters march

[winged trench]

Greymoor used to encompass a far larger part of the map when the game wasnt as developed. In the early drafts it was 1/3 of the entire world

[edgy stone]

Its the most common explanation for it so far I think

[edgy stone]

I really do think nuu was more of a recent addition

[winged trench]

We may never know

[edgy stone]

With it seeming like huntress would be significantly earlier in the game I'd wager she was gonna be the original journal giver

But she got pushed back and nuu was made as a result

[sudden pivot]

that would make sense to me, her character in my opinion lacks much depth

[edgy stone]

Runt is more of a character

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it, she doesn't seem to be interested in learning about different bugs, it wouldn't benefit her. I just think theres a point in time were tc decided to stop giving updates so everything feels like it was recently added

[edgy stone]

Well if she was moved id wager she would also be rewritten

Hell even runt is more advanced than skynx

No way is skynx the same species as any of them, dudes stupid as shit

[sudden pivot]

wouldnt even have to rewrite that much, its easy to imagine "collect all the different sorts of meats to find the best for my babies" getting cut down into a "collect these types of meats for me" side quest

[viscid ridge]

Same, but i think it just feels that way cause we dont see her commentary on the bugs we kill, we see hornets. But from the few times we see her outside halfway home, she seems really smart and perceptive

[edgy stone]

How many bodses does she do it for

I know conchfly and sister are 2

[sudden pivot]

thats true, and in fairness I dont really know how one would resolve that, but I will say in general in general I tend to prefer the Journal from the first game (other than UI....) though I do really appreciate the insights into Hornet's character in this one

[viscid ridge]

I honestly think those are the only 2, i think she maybe shows up at moorwing too but idk

[winged trench]

Unrelated but the songclave merchant loots forum after you beat it

[winged trench]

I dont think ao because the fleas take its body

[lucid fossil]

wtf is the forum

[viscid ridge]

Hornet gives way better insight about the bugs she kills, way more than the hunter did

[winged trench]

High halls gauntlet

[lucid fossil]

that sounds so familiar i forgot what it was

[viscid ridge]

I really love the journal in silksong

[lucid fossil]

ohhh FUCK that gauntlet

who made that gauntlet brah j need to have a word with the.m…

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i think before you bring the caravan there, she takes a look and then the fleas take it

[ancient dock]

Aren’t they all just wearing masks though

[edgy stone]

Nuu does skull tyrant as well apparently

[lucid fossil]

what does that have to do with anything

they are still the same species

[sudden pivot]

yeah... I think "the lore catalouge" is a pretty shitty trope and I really appreciated the Journal from the first game being it's own unique thing seperate from that, but I totally respect that that's just my niche opinion

[ancient dock]

I know but I’m just pointing out cause someone said that only one was wearing a mask

[viscid ridge]

But one thing still bothers me, Hunter in the first game says that Hornet is a hunter, but we know Silksong is a sequel, and only get the hunters mark after completing the journal so whats up with that?

[winged trench]

Huntress children are born with her face so probably not her

[edgy stone]

Oh skynx doesnt just not have needolin dialouge

Skynx freaks the fuck out if you play the needolin

[sudden pivot]

she starts with crest of hunter which your crest represents who you are, the hunters mark is superfluous

[edgy stone]

Yeah that thing is a godamn monster

[lucid fossil]

Huuh? You actually see her children??? 😭

[sudden pivot]

sitting in her hollowed corpse :)

[ancient dock]

Only if don’t do the quest

[lucid fossil]

oh… that’s

[winged trench]

It isnt really a hunters mark, nuu just gives you a reward for cataloguing for them

[ancient dock]

If you do it you save her basically

[viscid ridge]

But hornet mostly doesn't talk about lore, she discusses how to properly kill stuff, and what stratagies she should use. The only "lore" related entries are for the later bosses and her friends

[lucid fossil]

thank God 🙏🙏

[ancient dock]

And you just see her children egg cracks

[lucid fossil]

wait so did she lie about the whole feeding her children thing just so she could live

or did the children eat her instead and she didn’t expect that

[viscid ridge]

But it bears the mark of the hunter, so i think it still counts as a hunters mark

[winged trench]

If you complete the quest she leaves with her children
If you dont they eat her and one of them stays behind

[ancient dock]

So if you don’t get meat for her then her children will eat her

[edgy stone]

Her child

[lucid fossil]

ohh

[sudden pivot]

its lore and a strategy guide thats a fair point, I dont really like either though, if you know anything about ULTRAKILL I love that game but hate the Terminals, I just generally am a big "show dont tell" kinda gal, still not saying that thats anything other than a subjective opinion though

[lucid fossil]

maybe she just had small masks lying around idk…

[viscid ridge]

Did you know broodmother also has a child after killing her? They are feeding her till she becomes the new broodmother

[winged trench]

Anyway, huntress isnt wearing a mask, npc with crazy name just wears a simialr mask to appear scary, as hinted by the needolin dialogue

[lucid fossil]

does this trigger in act 3

[edgy stone]

Did not no

[slender python]

hi

[sudden pivot]

hola

[lucid fossil]

yes because I could not stand the sounds of that thang so I investigated

hello

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats fair, i just kinda like the idea of an encyclopedia of everything you've discovered

[edgy stone]

Is there a video

[viscid ridge]

But its honestly pretty cute when she sings, idk maybe just me 😅

[viscid ridge]

Not that i know of but shes there after the fight

[lucid fossil]

dude there’s been two things that cried 24/7 in my ears and one of them turned me into a parasite so i was not taking any chances

[viscid ridge]

But here she is if you wanna see her

[lucid fossil]

i like how they already put the collar thing on he

[sudden pivot]

totally fair, I can definitely appreciate it as someone who often binges papers about subjects im curious to know more about, in my games though I just prefer being able to piece together the nature of creatures from their environmental actions, rather than having their origins and nature revealed to me through dialogue, again I totally appreciate the value in those sorts of systems even if they're not for me 🫶

[sudden pivot]

I wish so badly to punt it

[lucid fossil]

was the journal really like that though? I feel like hornets journal was the occasional “i hate this” or “i like this”, and the rare moments of her connecting enemies to her past in hallownest (like the floating flower guys)

[viscid ridge]

Yeah on that topic i hate overly long item disrciptions in souls games. Like in elden ring i hate reading trough stuff and items, but i like it in HK cause its not too long, and it has 100 times the insight that most soulslikes item descriptions have

[edgy stone]

The non hunter ones in hk were pretty impartial but yeah hornet is really biased in her entries

[winged trench]

In the case of ultrakill i personally thought it did a great job at conveying elements of the world that are more subtle, in a way that enhances the enemies characters.
Silksongs is more about characterizing hornet, which i think it does pretty well.
I like having explicit definitions of some things in games like these where vague storytelling is typically used primarily

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but thats fine too, cause we learn more about her feelings towards certain characters like the PK for example

[sudden pivot]

its a lot of different things and it's difficult to distill, I think a good example of my personal problem with the second Journal can be found in entries like Sister Splinter, all we really get from Hornet was that its killed a lot of pilgrims and was territorial which were both kind of obvious, the Hunter would have given something philosophical to think about most likely, or would have given insight into it's history rather than so much its present nature, Hornet knows nothing of Sister Splinter's personality or intimate history so she can not comment on it, where as the Hunter more often than not could

[lucid fossil]

doesn’t hornet hate her dad or something

[lucid fossil]

ohhh that’s what you meant LOL I thought you meant the inverse

[edgy stone]

She is a true dont give a fucker

[viscid ridge]

I dont think she hates him but she seems to have not had a good relationship with him

[lucid fossil]

yeah I agree, I legit have no idea what’s going on with splinter either

the journal doesn’t help and I don’t remember seeing any lore tablets on her

[edgy stone]

Hornet seems to not fully agree with either side of her bloodline

She loves her mother and the weavers but she doesnt fully embrace being it or a pale being like her father

[lucid fossil]

come on after seeing what mother silk did, paleking is SUCH a better side to pick!

I thought pale king was bad but I guess he’s the best of the worst 😭

[edgy stone]

She actively resists the temptation to rule that is genetically bred into her

[viscid ridge]

The White Lady and the Pale King seems to have been very into their roles as rulers, a path that Hornet strongly doesn't want to follow.

[lucid fossil]

how’s whitr lady related to her again

[edgy stone]

I like the characterization that tbe pale king is one of the mosg base instict bugs we see in game even though he gave others higher though

[viscid ridge]

Pale king was always better, its mostly the memes that made him seem like a terrible guy.

[sudden pivot]

absolutely like I said I love Ultrakill and a lot of the reason is the environmental storytelling (and gameplay duh X3), I love HK and Silksong for their environmental storytelling (and other things of course) and so the elements of lore that are given less-than-subtly and often at no particular narrative interval stand out to me as things that are clear negatives for my personal tastes

[edgy stone]

Dude literally just does his base instinct of ruling at all times

[lucid fossil]

nevermind step mom

[winged trench]

Pale beings naturally desire to rule over others
Mother silks seeks this through daughters while pk wanted a kingdom

[viscid ridge]

An adoptive mother figure most likely

[lucid fossil]

yeah man all he did was murder millions of his kids

[lucid fossil]

thought so ya

also why was herrah chosen as “queen of the weavers” she ain’t a weaver 😭

[edgy stone]

Pale kings subjugation of most of hallownest is painted in a better light in silksong I think

[viscid ridge]

Yeah and he didn't want to do it, but he had to cause the radiance was being a prick

[lucid fossil]

some things we’ll never know…

[winged trench]

Shes the queen of deepnest and they live there

[edgy stone]

Dude didnt create hallownest because he wanted too. He was genetically bound to doing it

[viscid ridge]

Herrah is a weaver

[lucid fossil]

he didn’t create hallownest he usurped it

[sudden pivot]

Pale King was a monarch who fucked over everyone who wasnt his people and eventually his people all for his egotistical desire to be worshipped, that being said you can say the same for every Pale being except for Hornet and the Vessels but that doesn't make PK not a bad person

[lucid fossil]

uhh I don’t think so

[edgy stone]

Well his desire to be worshipped isn't necessarily egotistical, neither are silks or radiances

[lucid fossil]

like I said, pale king was bad but come on 😭 atleast he cares for his people

[edgy stone]

It seems like something they need

[lucid fossil]

wasn’t radiances kinda egotistical though? she ain’t a pale being

[edgy stone]

Its like how dung defender loves literal shit

[winged trench]

Beings have their own base instincts, it doesnt necessarily make their decisions not their own. Did you chose to eat today?

[edgy stone]

Pale king just loves the crown

[viscid ridge]

Who did pale king fuck over? He let everyone have their own peace and religions? He also built a whole city for pilgrims to come to, and when the radiance started to take over the whole kingdom, he built a plan to stop radiance from controlling anyone, even going so far as to sacrifice his own children to save his people. He is morally dubious, but he was never bad.

[zinc pivot]

Higher Beings should be a bit egotistical, they are literally like humans to other animals

[sudden pivot]

im sure the bugs whose minds HE granted and many of whom were left after the fact express bitterness towards him were completely of their own agency when they decided to dedicate their culture and lives to worshipping him

[viscid ridge]

Hornet is half weaver, meaning herrah was a full weaver

[lucid fossil]

Hornet is not a weaver but was raised by them im pretty sure

[edgy stone]

Or pale king was also half weaver

[winged trench]

Lmao

[lucid fossil]

I don’t think you can “inherit” being a weaver they were just enhanced common bug

[viscid ridge]

Bruh

[edgy stone]

Grand mother silj the original pale being confirmed

Pale king was a silk wyrm

[lucid fossil]

😭

[viscid ridge]

They literally say hornet is half weaver in game, The child of wyrm and weaver

[winged trench]

The citadel was bringing in bugs that were inheiriters of the weavers abilities
"Weaver, eighth part"

[zinc pivot]

Silk beings cant reproduce in a same way biological beings do

[lucid fossil]

um hornet refers herself to child of god and bug not weaver!!!

[zinc pivot]

Its like assisted master baiting

[edgy stone]

Its interesting how silk technically has a proper name with silk

Both the pale king and pale lady only have titles

[lucid fossil]

i do not know how hornet produces silk within her shell but im confiiddeennttt she’s not weaver!!!

[viscid ridge]

But we literally get told in silksong that she is half weaver, and has the ability to create silk in her shell, which only weavers can?

[lucid fossil]

where does it say that

[sudden pivot]

the Radiance taking over the kingdom is his fault for ensuring the Moth's forgot her? im not having this conversation again about ONE LINE of them having been fickle means the Pale King is completely absolved of anything to do with the Radiance's near-death, if you disagree we can just agree to disagree, whatever happens in Embrace the Void is also his fault, he made uneven treaties with everyone around him (Queen's Gardens, using the Metalworking of the Hive, using the situation with Radiance to get Weaver Silk for his own ends, (we can see they had the HK's seal complete themselves so he must have wanted more Silk for his workshop) dumping the City of Tears sewege into the Fungal Wastes, off the top of my head I think thats everything)

[winged trench]

Widow knows about pale king and calls hornet half weaver

[viscid ridge]

There is a choral commandment that says she is half weaver, and she gets referred to as a weaver by a ton of characters in the game

[winged trench]

I find the implication of widow to be that she is how they found out about hornet

[sudden pivot]

seems to have been common knowledge, "Kingdom of the White Wyrm"

[zinc pivot]

Or, Silk communicate that to her considering shes a loyal fanatic

[lucid fossil]

hmm!! maybe it could’ve been retconned of herrah being common bug then

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah thats another thing he made all his subjects think there was no world beyond and he was the only way to salvation and civilization

[winged trench]

I mean so far hes pretty on the mark lmao

[lucid fossil]

pharloom referenced hallownest ONCE and looked down at it… tsk… cmon guys let’s get act 4 going where the lifeblood consumes pharloom

[zinc pivot]

He didn’t really say that
He is more of my kingdom shall outlast the rest of them

[edgy stone]

I feel like this cements the pale king as a pretty strong entity

[lucid fossil]

(he was wrong)

[viscid ridge]

Bro its absolutely not his fault, im pretty sure that he would have been fine letting the tribe worship the radiance, same as he did with the other religions in hallownest, but just like seer said, the moth tribe is to blame for the radiance infection

[edgy stone]

Where in outside regions his kingdom is marked by the claim of his name and not the kingdoms proper title

[sudden pivot]

I mean we know of at least like four or five livable places beyond Hallownest, Pharloom, the Land of Storms, and all the places the cages in the Cradle mention

[winged trench]

Sandsea waste and city of steel

[zinc pivot]

Sandsea waste sounds like a mad max post apocalyptic shit

[lucid fossil]

huuu where is this dialogue I wanna seee

did I miss something behind a secret wall

[zinc pivot]

A cradle room iirc

[winged trench]

Hallownest
Land of storms
Sandsea waste
City of steel
Pharloom

[fossil ledge]

Don't forget Blackbarren

[viscid ridge]

Yeah we have Hallownest, Pharloom, Steel Kingdom, Land of Storms, and the 2 others on the cages that i forgor

[edgy stone]

Also wherever quirrel and cloth are from plus tiso

So thats another 3

[lucid fossil]

isn’t quirrel from hallownest

[zinc pivot]

Quirrel is a Hallownest citizen

[edgy stone]

Ah I meant the map giy

[lucid fossil]

cornjfer

[winged trench]

Cornifer is just a drifter

[lucid fossil]

j thought he was also relative to hallownest 😭

[edgy stone]

Cornifer dont know how I got them mixed up

[zinc pivot]

Ngl i think they are meant to be kept as mystery

[viscid ridge]

And the Blackbarrens, but im also pretty sure City of Steel is only a small part of their land, same as with the City of tears or The citidel. But maybe the Steel bugs have completely overtaken their land making it one big city

[edgy stone]

Yeah doubt well ever see or hear about it, but they do imply more kingdoms beyond the ones previously listed

[lucid fossil]

there could be a chance they’re just from the listed places

[sudden pivot]

like I said im not having this conversation again for the eigth million time, there's a dev note suggesting its his fault, the Hunter (the narrative) repeatedly says that it was the decadence of Hallownest and its Monarch that caused the infection, and finally we know the Moth Tribe abandoned their original language and aspects of their culture related to worship of the Radiance once the PK appeared which isnt just something people happen to do, like I said if you disagree with these points fine, agree to disagree, im not doing this again

[winged trench]

I hope they explore city of steel in a future expansion

[edgy stone]

They oughta

[lucid fossil]

that’s just not true brah he usurped the radiances position and everyone else who was already living in hallownest

[gentle aspen]

no he didn’t

[zinc pivot]

I wonder if TC intend to make another HKverse game
Not to say they aren’t good at it, but franchising stuff doesn’t bode well

[lucid fossil]

is this like a city where the steel soul guys come from

[gentle aspen]

Seer places the blame squarely on the moths

[winged trench]

Pale king was against coexisting with radiance

[gentle aspen]

He didn’t usurp anything he gave them a choice and they chose him

[gentle aspen]

yes that was after the infection lmao

[lucid fossil]

heh… I watched EVERY miss bag video…

[sudden pivot]

presumably, I dont think they'd use the word for no reason

[viscid ridge]

And its fine to have that opinion, both sides are complete assholes, but i do think one side is way more than the other

[gentle aspen]

You can’t coexist with someone who’s trying to kill everyone

[zinc pivot]

This is after the infection happened

If the moths kept to themselves he wouldn’t bat an eye

[winged trench]

Even then he still pretty clearly states that only he should expand the minds of bugs

[edgy stone]

Pale king was also just a better leader too, he did way more than the radiance ever did

[gentle aspen]

That’s not what he’s saying and rad can’t do that

[viscid ridge]

I see why based on that you would think that, but i see a different interpretation of it

[sudden pivot]

yeah im not saying PK isnt by FAR the best monarch to live under as an average citizen in all of Hollow Knight, im just saying from an actual real world ethics standpoint hes a piece of shit

[edgy stone]

Did the radiance ever try and build one bench hmmm??????

[gentle aspen]

beacons are a thing only wyrms can do

[edgy stone]

I dont think so

[zinc pivot]

Rads only create and is responsible for moth

[winged trench]

I dont think pale king conciously angered the radiance but it was his actions and kingdom that ultimately upset it

[edgy stone]

The pale king benchmogs the radiance so is obviously the better ruler

[lucid fossil]

he kinda stole the spotlight from the radiance

[viscid ridge]

I dissagree but ydy

[lucid fossil]

Like he showed up and stole all of her followers

[zinc pivot]

Indirectly since the blame fell on the Moths for being enthralled

[winged trench]

Its so funny how the main conflict of hollow knight stemmed from
"Moth like light"

[viscid ridge]

Moth tribe: AITA for abandoning my god and causing the zombie apocalypse?

[lucid fossil]

radiance has a valid crashout ion know what you’re all on

[lucid fossil]

NTA. Was radiance fault

[fossil ledge]

We don't know that he ensured the Moth Tribe forgot the Radiance. He just showed up offering them to follow him and they did. We don't know that anything happens in Embrace the Void. Considering the Knight as the Shade Lord is confirmed to be pretty chill, odds are nothing happened. The are no known relations between the Hive and the Pale King's kingdom aside of Hornet's education and training. The kingdom very likely traded with Deepnest for the silk. Nothing suggests it was stolen or otherwise taken without Deepnest being alright with it. Although the capital's sewers partially run off into the Fungal Wastes, it doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects, as neither the Mantis Tribe nor the Mushroom Clan comment on it.

[viscid ridge]

She inslaved innocent people that had nothing to do with it

[winged trench]

The whole moth religion is literally about remembering spirits too are they stupid
They forgot the very angry "god of remembering culture"

[lucid fossil]

AITA for trying to rule over a kingdom with my pale light that was already being ruled with a normal light, thus stealing all of their followers and making them leave their god?!

[lucid fossil]

That’s kinda what war is bud

[viscid ridge]

Thats exactly my point

[lucid fossil]

She wanted to be remembered and have her followers back

[edgy stone]

They do seem like stupid assholes

[lucid fossil]

And what better way to do it than ruin the kingdom of the man that stole it from her

[sudden pivot]

and they all just happened to abandond any aspect of their culture related to their previous god? which is definitely not something societies do when they establish a new state religion, and also not something literally any other group in any kingdom in-lore has done, there are no other examples of a new god showing up and all previous mentions of the other god being erased, why do you think the ones who were still loyal had to "whisper" their faith?

[edgy stone]

We meet 4 moths and 3 of em try to kill you and the last one hates their race

[fossil ledge]

Are you referring to the Moth Tribe? Because they still live in their ancestral land, following their ancestral customs and traditions, up until the infection.

[viscid ridge]

Seiji, i dont wanna come off as mean, but have you ever played any of the 2 games?

[zinc pivot]

Did we meet 4 moths

[lucid fossil]

you can’t really bring real-world religion to a bug game. the moth tribe was kinda either they died or changed worship to the pale king

[lucid fossil]

uh huh, is there something wrong with my claim of her overtaking the entirety of hallownest

[fossil ledge]

What? Plenty of tribes chose not to follow the Pale King and were left alone. What do you mean?

[zinc pivot]

The moth tribe was never threatened in any mention though

They clearly think PK is a superior divinity and change their religion

[terse warren]

The PK made his own kingdom and the moths joined willingly, there was no stealing

[viscid ridge]

It has nothing to do with your message, i was just replying to the last thing u ssid

[lucid fossil]

I did not say they died as a consequence of not following the pale king

[viscid ridge]

But also, are you sure?

[terse warren]

That's literally not true???

[lucid fossil]

indirectly, he had stolen the moths from the radiance so yeah, stealing

[sudden pivot]

my friends, Hollow Knight is a game about monarchy, religion, and politics...

[fossil ledge]

I see. The wording you used in the comment I replied to seemed to imply you believe the Moths were forced to choose the Pale King or die by his hand

[terse warren]

Dawg. The moths are people. They chose to change deity

[lucid fossil]

brah 😭 you aren’t understanding me

uh huh, they chose to leave their current god to worship pale king, in an indirect way, that is stealing them from her

[viscid ridge]

Idk seiji seems to have a very weird view of right and wrong

[terse warren]

You don't steal people that's not how it works

[lucid fossil]

is this ragebait ?! 🙀

[terse warren]

You also didn't explain why you think Moths had to choose between following pk or dying

[viscid ridge]

Like they said its justified for the radiance to take control of innocent people, because her followers chose to worship another god

[sudden pivot]

I had a response to this but I copy pasted it and erased it coping that image... whoops.. uhhh tldr we know they abandonded their previous language (Wander's Journal) and that the hidden statue at the Crown of Hallownest is her only statue left, so yes they kept most of their customs (which were given to them by Radiance) in service of the Pale King (helping him with Dream World shit) except for any of the ones actually related to Radiance or her legacy

[viscid ridge]

Im still wondering what classifies as a pale being, cause idk if Nightmare heart and unn are considered pale beings, but they are still very powerful so idk

[lucid fossil]

i cannot word myself correctly it is 2am 😭

i had expressed myself as in leave god and follow ruler, or stay with current god and follow them. they all died eventually but a very scarce amount remembered the radiance—I don’t remember any other people doing that than seer

[sudden pivot]

they are not Pale Beings they are just Higher Beings

im PRETTY sure the way Pale Beings work

[lucid fossil]

pale beings are white or something

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but thats my point, whats the difference?

[terse warren]

??? That doesn't explain it?

[cold axle]

we don't really have any good ideas of that rn, other than "their color palette lmao"

[lucid fossil]

I think pale beings are the ones described as wanting to be the ones to rule kingdoms, when higher beings are just guys that make other guys and rule over them only or sum…

[sudden pivot]

is like shiny Pokemon, that a creature of any species can be born pale and be super powerful relative to their kin, and when you get an already god-like creature like a Wyrm born pale you get some wacky results

[lucid fossil]

that’s cool this obviously isn’t going anywhere

[terse warren]

GMS didn't want to rule a Kingdom... Ruling kingdoms is a Wyrm thing

[cold axle]

we can definitely make assumptions of affiliations with like, light, life/Soul, and thought

[sudden pivot]

its also a Pale Being thing, several quotes corroborate this

[zinc pivot]

So basically what seji said about moths forced to worship pk or die is false

Lets put an end to that

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats what im wondering, cause pale beings seem to be gods that have a connection to light, but that would make radiance a pale being, but its also never stated that she is also a pale being

[cold axle]

because all of the pale beings we've seen so far have had some associations with life, soul, creation of life, etc.

[terse warren]

Yes?? I'm saying that wanting to rule Kingdoms is not a Pale Being thing, it's a Wyrm thing

[cold axle]

but like, anyone that tells you we know what they are is up their own ass with theorycrafting

[sudden pivot]

PK had double dosed of authoritarianism in his blood and still managed to be the best monarch, I dont like the guy but good for him

[cold axle]

we can make guesses based on trends, but those guesses are just that

[terse warren]

Even normal higher beings have created life, like Unn

[sudden pivot]

...and im saying wanting to rule kingdoms is both a trait of Pale Beings and Wyrms?

[zinc pivot]

Yeah three Pale Beings confirmed represent life, light and soul

[viscid ridge]

Exactly

[terse warren]

Except that's not the case?

[lucid fossil]

that’s why it is assumed that pale beings are different in the way that they rule

[gentle aspen]

they’re not

[lucid fossil]

nightmare heart red not white not pale being

[terse warren]

GMS didn't want to rule and WL for all we know only wanted to marry PK

[cold axle]

does Silk have a direct connection to light, other than her boss fight animation? for her it mostly looks to be soul and longevity (with the whiteward bullshit)

[terse warren]

So that's 2/3 Pale Beings we saw that don't care about ruling a kingdom

[cold axle]

and creation as interpreted through weaving and stitching

[sudden pivot]

"You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow." -Hornet

[viscid ridge]

Its soul, so maybe all pale beings can control soul to a point? But also normal bugs can also control soul so i dont think thats a distinction

[cold axle]

that's my suspicion, yeah

[lucid fossil]

im pretty sure they had motives that weren’t stated, hornet says something about her need to rule too

[lucid fossil]

yeah this

[zinc pivot]

In the First Sinner and Widows memory, she is seen as a light that cast down on the weavers

[terse warren]

Hornet is a biased party

Also it was she Citadel that did shit to Verdania, not GMS directly, don't take quotes out of context

[gentle aspen]

ugh

Hate ts

[sudden pivot]

"The need for dominance, it seems, is baked deep into my blood, as too I suspect for the one up top." -Hornet

[lucid fossil]

cold hornet quote

ts such a pale being wanting dominance proof

[viscid ridge]

And we need to take the Pale Stag into consideration, cause that thing is considered a pale being, but its clearly not as powerful as The Wyrm or GMS

[lucid fossil]

yeah wait wtf is the pale stag even LOL

[terse warren]

Hornet is not an all-knowing god

[terse warren]

Pale Stag isn't even real

It's literally a legend brought to reality by the mind of Green Prince

[sudden pivot]

thats why I said I think being Pale is like being a shiny pkmn, can happen to any species you're just born way stronger than most of your kin, but when an already godlike creature is born pale shit gets crazy

[sudden pivot]

we dont know if it was real or not

[lucid fossil]

??? But she’s referring to herself there, and she’s shown having crazy accurate intuition

[terse warren]

Read the hunter journal entry

[sudden pivot]

yeah but whenever she brings this up (to Green Prince in the first dialouge, I believe to Mask Maker in the second) they always agree with her

[cold axle]

doesn't hornet straight up say "i dunno if this was real or mythical"?

[viscid ridge]

I think personally the Pale Stag created verdanias plantlife, same as with Unn, but the Green Kingdom killed it to assert their dominance as the most powerful kingdom in pre pharloom

[sudden pivot]

"was it ever real as I saw it?" thats a question not a statement

[terse warren]

She's referring to herself because she's half Wyrm not half pale being

[lucid fossil]

In her other dialogue she mentions being part pale being instead of pale wyrm specifically

I think it’s fair to think she’s referring to the pale part there, especially since she mentions mother silk

[viscid ridge]

The wyrm is a pale being though

[fossil ledge]

All the Wanderer's Journal says is that the glyphs on the tablets don't match any recorded language the wanderer knows of. Although not confirmed, it is implied these were written by the Moth Tribe, which has been extinct save for the Seer for a very long time as far as we know. The language not being known to the wanderer isn't surprising. How does this mean that the Moth Tribe switched languages?

Even if they did though, we have no reason to believe this would be forced, given none of the other tribes not related to the Pale King's kingdom did either. Even the Mushroom Clan, who is a part of the kingdom, didn't change languages.

The Radiance's statue does indeed seem to be the only one of it's kind, so?

We don't know that the Moth Tribe collaborated with the Pale King on anything dream realm-related.

[terse warren]

And?? I'm saying that it's specifically a Wyrm thing and not a Pale Being thing

[zinc pivot]

Wyrm is synonymous to being Pale

[viscid ridge]

Oh mb i didn't understand the argument fully

[lucid fossil]

No

But yeah, hornet was definitely referring to her pale part in that dialogue

[zinc pivot]

All Wyrms, capitalized Wyrm, are pale

[sudden pivot]

yes she absolutely is, here is a dialogue if you speak to Mask Maker in act 3:

"In our meeting, a mortal blow was dealt, but the monarch's desperate death throes now threaten to take this whole kingdom with her." -Hornet
"Ha! I'm not surprised! It's always the way, aye? Your ancient kind, vying for dominion, and us mortal bugs squashed unseen underneath." -MM

[viscid ridge]

Not really, we know the pale king classifies as a White Wyrm, so there are probably other types of wyrms out there, potentially the blackwyrm

[zinc pivot]

Its always suggested since the first game that the blood of Wyrm signifies dignified status

[zinc pivot]

Thats why i made the distinction, capitalized Wyrm

Like capital G God

[terse warren]

No???

[zinc pivot]

Root, Wyrm, are all capitalized

[lucid fossil]

this is so awesome. now why was that one guy saying pale beings don’t want dominance…

[viscid ridge]

But the capital w means nothing, its the y thats the distinction

[lucid fossil]

you know what’s also awesome it’s 2.30 I need to sleep!

[zinc pivot]

Wyrm is a mythical creature depicted in our world too

[viscid ridge]

Maybe the Blackwyrm comes from the blacbarrens now that i think of it, naming convention?

[zinc pivot]

So the world wyrm itself doesn’t pose too much significance
But all mentions of PK blood is Wyrm

[lucid fossil]

-# yeah but they don’t seem correlated at all. ok goodnight everyon

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but wyrm in real world mythology and wyrm in hollow knight are very different

[zinc pivot]

You will be surprised to see a resemblance

[sudden pivot]

the Seer doesn't speak the language of the Glpyhs nor do any dead Moths from the time they served the Kingdom, its clear they changed languages

...huh? yeah im saying that PK made them erase any cultural mentioning of Radiance which they wouldn't have done willingly cause no one else did, im not quite sure what the point you're making here is, could you rephrase? sorry ^^;

so all effigies of her were clearly erased

we dont know for a fact but we also dont know of any other way PK could have accessed the Dream World so its the safest assumption

[viscid ridge]

Such as?

[zinc pivot]

Draconic appearance
Long, serpentine, legless body

[viscid ridge]

No way really??

[gentle aspen]

[zinc pivot]

Yes, the draconic tree of dragonkind have many species

[sudden pivot]

also again on top of this I can not stress more than the game itself does how much the infection was Hallownest and by extention it's rulers fault

[terse warren]

People can miss dialogue believe it or not

[sudden pivot]

the Hunter talks about it constantly

[viscid ridge]

I was being sarcastic, but thats a very barebones resemblance

[zinc pivot]

Eitherway the word wyrm itself has a mythical origin, and TC was intentionally using it

But no other wyrm than PK get the distinction

[gentle aspen]

We see no other wyrm

[sudden pivot]

well I mean I think its cause they're magical

[zinc pivot]

Blackwyrm
Which again, isn’t capitalized Wyrm

[sudden pivot]

we hear of one other and know that there were many at some point

but yeah dont see

[zinc pivot]

So its of a different offshoot

[sudden pivot]

because its one word

[viscid ridge]

Bruh you have no other wyrm we have to compare to

[gentle aspen]

We don’t know what that is or if it’s even an actual wyrm
It could be a location for all we know

[sudden pivot]

if it was two words itd be Black Wyrm

[gentle aspen]

Or a battle tactic who knows

[sudden pivot]

Blackwyrm is a title

[zinc pivot]

But we never see it mentioned as Black Wyrm, only Blackwyrm

[gentle aspen]

We know others exist but there’s no reason to assert anything about them aside from what bardoon tells us

[static ginkgo]

If I recall the mossbag video right, its reffered to in a sentence by just "wyrm" once

[zinc pivot]

If TC cares they wouldve made it two words, and they didnt seperate it

[sudden pivot]

right? I dont get your point, spelling it differently doesnt change the creatures nature

[viscid ridge]

You mean the one time it gets offhandedly mentioned?

[sudden pivot]

its a single throw away line dude

[zinc pivot]

A god is vastly different than God

[lapis geode]

So Wyrm is an entirety of Pale King specimen, meanwhile GMS is just one individual.
To be fair GMS existence is kinda odd for me. At least Radiance resembles moth but GMS seems awkward
to be called "spider"

You know... that lady is made of silk.

[zinc pivot]

Capitalized would imply a higher status at least in mentions

[gentle aspen]

it’s a single line from dung defender

[sudden pivot]

it implies that the people writing it regarded it with higher status not that it was another species lmao

[gentle aspen]

You’re applying way too many assumptions about ot

[viscid ridge]

There seems to be more to her i think we dont know yet, she is very odd

[zinc pivot]

In a game about little details that tell the story? I doubt it

[sudden pivot]

tbf the only reason Radiance resembles anything in the world is because she directly created the only things that look like her

[lapis geode]

Indeed. And since we know that GMS is in weakened state, I wonder
her true nature would be like.

Is either small like Karmellita & Queen Vespa at their prime, or as big as Radiance

[gentle aspen]

You literally are extrapolating conclusions based on zero evidence

[zinc pivot]

I said my piece of evidence, all capitalized Wyrm vs the Blackwyrm with no capitalization

[gentle aspen]

That’s not evidence

[zinc pivot]

It’s in game so it is

[gentle aspen]

it isn’t evidence for what you’re saying

[sudden pivot]

you need to provide evidence as to why the capitalization matters

[gentle aspen]

It’s evidence for “these are capitalized differently”

your point doesn’t follow from the evidence given

[fossil ledge]

We don't know that they don't, though. They most likely don't speak to the Knight in said language, which makes sense given non-Moth Tribe members wouldn't be likely to know it. Doesn't mean Seer can't speak it, though.

But what makes you think that he did? Nowhere is this mentioned or implied. Even if it was intentionally removed at some point, the more logical cause to assume would be to try and erase all connections between the waking and dream world she could use to spread her influence and spread the infection after it started spreading.

My point was that there's no reason to assume that they did switch languages, considering none of the other tribes did. Even if the Moth Tribe did, we have no reason to believe it was forced, because again, none of the others were.

Alternatively, it could have been a major place of worship for the Radiance, and so only one such statue ever existed. Unn also only has one statue in her temple.

The Pale King seems to have power over the dream realm himself as well, which is how he transported the palace there. Nothing suggests the Moth Tribe had any involvement with this. If you need some kind of concrete proof, every higher being that has a connection to the dream realm has its own dedicated colour for dream essence. Radiance has yellow, Moth Tribe has a pinkish yellow, Unn has green, Pale King has white and White Lady has a cream-coloured white. Lifeblood seems to have its own blue one as well

[zinc pivot]

Capitalization means a distinction has to be made

[gentle aspen]

Ok

[zinc pivot]

Else nobody would have made it

[viscid ridge]

She was probably always like that, but im specifically refering to why she doesn't have a face and all that

[zinc pivot]

So Wyrm mentions mean Wyrm as whole has a special meaning and status

[viscid ridge]

One thing thats very interesting to me, is the way how all the different higher beings are referred to as kin, meaning that they must all have a similar origin. That is something that i would like to know more about.

[viscid ridge]

Go talk to Bardoon

[zinc pivot]

White Lady called the Everbloom the First Light, it might be related

[zinc pivot]

Literally the guy of capitalized Wyrm

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but thats also really strange to me, cause the everbloom seems to come from an entire different place, and has strong connections with zemir, but she isnt a higher being, which is really strange to me

[viscid ridge]

Not what i was talking about

[fossil ledge]

Godseeker also mentions the Delicate Flower is not of a higher being and has no godly resonance they can detect

[viscid ridge]

Thats really fucking strange, cause you'd think such a powerful thing would be associated with a higher being

Or maybe everblooms are a force of nature, same as with the void.

[ancient dock]

Karmellita and Vespa are not higher beings so probably as big as the raidence

[fossil ledge]

Or well, to be precise: Godseeker confirms the flower itself is no god, but that if it is related to one, they can't detect its godly resonance

[zinc pivot]

It could be that Zemer has a similar origin to the Weavers

[zinc pivot]

Yeah this line really tickles me now after seeing SS

[viscid ridge]

Like the everblooms are the first light, and the void is the ever present darkness

[lapis geode]

So it contain power, yet we don't know the source of that power
except, that it possibly because the flower itself as specimen has innate ability already.

[fossil ledge]

To me this implies that either it truly belongs to no god and instead processes light or soul in some unique way, or that the higher being it belongs to is unlike most

[waxen forum]

The delicate flowers come from ‘lands serene’ according to the white lady

[lapis geode]

So indeed it's a speciment.

[fossil ledge]

The homeland of Ze'mer

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but also to be fair, the knight is also a god, but the godseekers couldn't realize that it was a god until it beat the pantheons

[fossil ledge]

Exactly

Godseekers cannot detect a god without a godly resonance, including higher beings it seems

[viscid ridge]

Maybe the everblooms come from the surface of the world, the opposite of how the void comes from the bottom

[waxen forum]

The real question is why the white lady gives you the flower, when she has nothing to do with them according to her own dialogue in HK

[clever grove]

Maybe that's why they're a weakness to the void

[viscid ridge]

I dont think she created the flower, but they were probably commonplace in the white palace cause they used it to repel the void

[clever grove]

I wonder how they acquired it

[fossil ledge]

That's what I was wondering as well. It's odd that she won't even accept it from the Knight in the first game, and here she outright gives on to Hornet herself

[viscid ridge]

Probably zemir

[clever grove]

Yeah probably

[waxen forum]

‘Lands serene’ and ‘flower that calms the void’ sounds to me like some kind of natural growth place of everblooms in a place with a lot of void, rendering the void there unnaturally calm by void standards

[lapis geode]

If they're come from the surface then growing it inside the Palace would be tough
since it absolutely needs different treatment than just underground flower.

[fossil ledge]

Don't forget a bush of these flowers grows on the Traitor Lord Child's grave

[viscid ridge]

My thought in the first game, is that it was too powerful for her to touch, and the same thing that happened in the godmaster ending would happen to her, but now i think she said to the knight that the flower can be used for more important reasons than to be given to her.

[clever grove]

I'm wondering what it is about the everblooms that can repel the void

[waxen forum]

Racism

[clever grove]

Lmao

[lapis geode]

That's a powerful spell.
Maybe the strongest

[fossil ledge]

They have the power of light, which is opposed to the void

[clever grove]

So is the void the power of dark?

[fossil ledge]

White Lady describes the power it draws as the first light, which is likely the reason it's so effective agains the void

[clever grove]

The radiance light seems to be different from everbloom light

[viscid ridge]

Not really, it grows in like 3 seconds in queens gardens. And we do know white lady loves her gardening, so she probably knew how to properly take care of it. Im not saying it was grown in the palace, but they probably had a lot around

[sudden pivot]

we see their shrines and graves and inscribed with the language of Hallownest :/

its heavily implied that PK didnt want anyone worshipping anyone other than him where ever possible, in-game its shown by him establishing his effigies all through his territory including along the Pilgrims Way and it's also corroborated by Silksong dialouge about Wyrms and Pale Beings both being terriotial and authoritarian by nature, and also a dev note about the Moth Tribe stating PK convinced them to turn against Radiance out of a desire to be the single ruler of Hallownest, again he had all the other factions in uneven treaties because it wasn't worth the immense effort of militarily conquering them, especially with everything else he had on his plate, we know the timeframe of Radiance's effigies being removed is well before the infection started because Seer states the Kingdom of Hallownest was born from the Radiance being betrayed and forgotten

ah! I see! thank you so much for clarifying!!! :3 I wont repeat my points about how we know they switched languages, but I will add that the Mantis Tribe did also begin speaking whatever the common language of Hallownest is, which makes sense seeing as how the Mosskin, Mantis Village, the Hive, and the Shroomals were all effectively his vassal states to varying extents, and no there isn't any statement that he forced them to switch languages and abandon aspects of their culture, but the fact they only abandoned parts that contribute to the power or remembrance of the Radiance makes it pretty clear, along with other evidence ive said earlier here

Unn has only one Shrine in the modern game but thats because shes at by far her weakest, we have no idea how many shrines may have been in her vast territory when there were still those to build them, and we see stone carvings dedicated to her

word limit.... I would appreciate if you would let me reply to the last point in a second message before you begin responding but I get it if not ^^

[fossil ledge]

Sure, take your time replying, I can wait

[clever grove]

Hm first light. So even before the radiance's light?

[viscid ridge]

Void seems to be very sensitive to light, so if we assume everblooms are the first light, that would be so strong as to completely destroy it

[fossil ledge]

We're just discussing for fun here at the end

[fossil ledge]

My guess is yes

[clever grove]

Wow so it must be ancient

[fossil ledge]

Primordial, most likely

[clever grove]

The radiance was around for a long time

[pseudo gazelle]

The real question is how the knight can hold it

[viscid ridge]

I honestly dont think the bug world has a sun, i just think light either comes from higher beings or lumaflies, which is why their so important

[fossil ledge]

That's the same thing the White Lady muses on xD

[clever grove]

Damn I didn't think about that

[sudden pivot]

there is nothing suggesting PK has power over the Dream Realm, the only time we see the varying particles you mention is when we see the various Higher Beings being reached out to in the dream realm (Godhome, White Palace) or alternatively while they are sleeping/accessing dreams in the case of Grimm and the Moth Tribe, it takes less assumptions to say the Moth Tribe helped transport himself, his court, and his palace into the Dream World, than it does to say PK used a never before seen and never again mentioned power in that moment

[fossil ledge]

Probably having a shell of two pale beings

[sudden pivot]

okay ty for patience and letting me finish!!! :D

[fossil ledge]

Yw! I'll go read it now xD

[sudden pivot]

X3

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i think if the flower touched the void inside the knight it would be destroyed, but its luckily protected by its shell

[clever grove]

If PK had power over the Dream Realm he wouldn't really need the vessels since that's the radiance's domain

I wonder how he trapped his palace in the dream realm

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but everyone seems to have their own dream realm

[clever grove]

Each bug's dream realm is different? I thought it was all one plane that changed based on the bug's thoughts

[deep elk]

Wait I just noticed something small but useful.

[viscid ridge]

We dont know for sure, it seems everyone has their own dreamrealm, but also it seems radiances control was due to her having access to the dreams of others. The dream realm is very mysterious

[deep elk]

People have often been saying that Hornet feels weaker but more swift and nimble and faster than the Knight and that might actually be proven in game.

[viscid ridge]

Cause of the double damage?

[slender python]

is hornet made of void?

[deep elk]

With the Pure Nail in Hollow Knight, you can one shot Shadow Creepers right? IIRC. I'll have to check without strength to confirm.
But Hornet with Pale Steel Needle takes two hits.

[deep elk]

NO

[slender python]

why?

[sudden pivot]

I think its like every bug has their own section of dreamworld

[clever grove]

Oh so she can travel between dream realms. Wait so if a vessel was truly hollow it wouldn't have a dream realm so there would be nothing to contain the radiance in

[viscid ridge]

I think obviously the knight is stronger than hornet, cause she is only half higher being, while the knight is 100% higher being

[deep elk]

That could just be that enemies in pharloom are stronger but still viable theory.

[sudden pivot]

its described as a space "between body and soul" iirc

[viscid ridge]

Cause she wasn't thrown in the void as a baby

[slender python]

ohhh

ty

[deep elk]

So in Hollow Knight, the history of the vessels are that they were created to contain the radiance. So PK and White Lady made a bunch of babies, threw em in the abyss and they absorbed the void.
Hornet however, was made by PK and Herrah. And raised by Herrah and the weavers (also trained by Queen Vespa in the Hive). Hornet wasn't thrown into the abyss, because why would she be?
She's a half sister to the Knight and Hollow Knight.

[sudden pivot]

I dont think the gameplay reflects the lore too well in terms of enemy strength, like we know the average Hallownest citizen should be much physically weaker than the average Pilgrim but there isnt really any gameplay stat differences, like im pretty sure from a lore perspective a Mantis Warrior is meant to be on par with like the sword-weilding Skarr, I forget their names, the ones one level above Skarr Scout

[slender python]

but she has no eyes so she's part void and its empty

[deep elk]

Artstyle

[clever grove]

I agree. She wasn't made to be a vessel. She was made as part of a deal so Herrah would agree to be a Dreamer. It just makes sense that PK wouldn't need her to have void. She was simply the bargaining chip in his plan

[viscid ridge]

Yeah im definitely not a fan of the amount of double damage, not because it was hard, but because it deminished the use of your masks. I think double damage should have been left for act 2

[zinc pivot]

Skarr Stalker?

[sudden pivot]

and like Hive Knight trained under Vespa so from lore he should be dogging most Silksong bosses but hes not that hard compared to most, and Hornet is way weaker as a boss than as a Playable Character

[deep elk]

That's fair.

[zinc pivot]

Unless you mean big skarrgard

[viscid ridge]

Thats because she is the spitting image of her father, who also looks like that

[slender python]

True

[clever grove]

I'm still confused about this. Why would PK want a hollow vessel if it can't have a dream realm to contain the radiance? I understand it can't be infected if it's hollow but it also can't contain the infection.

I know that none of the vessels ended up being hollow but I just don't understand PK's logic

[deep elk]

Plus, Hornet needs the everbloom to DEFLECT the void. Also doesn't leave a shade when she dies (the black thingy when you break her cocoon isn't void).
Whereas the Knight needed to remember it's origin to be accepted into the void. And thus, the void wasn't hostile anymore to the Knight.

[viscid ridge]

Now we wait 7 more years for Pablo in his adventures in the City of Steel

[deep elk]

She also has a plan to defeat another god but ends up fucking up a kingdom more. :3
Like father like daughter.

[sudden pivot]

no it had a Dream World the idea was just that its dream would be totally empty and would basically be the abyss inside of the Dream World, which was not the case

[viscid ridge]

Yeah in the game files those black things are called little spiders, like in those videos where the baby spiders scatters when you break their egg

[deep elk]

OH! Cool!

[viscid ridge]

Like father like daughter

[sudden pivot]

tbf thats was like 90% the Snails fault

[deep elk]

Fair xD.

[clever grove]

That sort of makes sense. Although I feel like if you don't have a mind to think you can't dream. Unless this abyss dream world is like a non-dream world kind of thing

[deep elk]

But it's funnier to say like father like daughter. :3

[proud drum]

Is pablo real

[heavy falcon]

Yes

[sudden pivot]

the Dream World is basically a collective unconscious, the idea of the Hollow Knight was to tear a hole into that collective unconscious with an autonomous but truly insentient being, and seal her within it

[viscid ridge]

Like my personal theory about dream worlds is that all bugs that have minds have a dreamworld, they are all connected, but all are different.
So the radiance started to infect other dreamworld to control the bugs, so the point of the Hollow Knight, was to create a being that had no mind, thus not having a dreamworld, and thus cutting the radiance off from the rest of the other dreamworlds.

[clever grove]

Oh like an interconnected system

That makes sense

[sudden pivot]

yes, the goal of the Radiance after she had been sealed was to unite every mind in the world under her light through the dream world

[clever grove]

It's crazy to think that none of the events of HK would have happened if PK had just established his kingdom somewhere else and not disturbed the Radiance

[lapis geode]

GMS would like a chat with that.

[round adder]

Wait in this scenario how would they seal the radiance in the hollow knight, isn't she sealed in it's mind? I might be wrong on that but that's how I always thought of it

[sudden pivot]

I think Radiance kinda low diffs I cant even lie

maybe the underwhelming boss fight has me biased X3

[ancient dock]

I don’t think they are interconnected but the Godseeker creates a way to traverse dreams

[lapis geode]

If Radiance is chill then this wouldn't happen.
Or moth tribe just casually still worship both of Pale Being

[lapis geode]

Radiance is slowly raise in power while GMS is in weakened state.
We also can't compare them if both at their prime.

[sudden pivot]

the Radiance was chill until the Pale King tried to erase her culturally, which is debatable I suppose but I am completely confident he did in fact try to do

[clever grove]

Sadly Radiance is not chill. She is a very angry and jelly moth lmao

[sudden pivot]

Prime Radiance was a rival of the Ancient Civilization, I dont think GMS was ever built like that

[clever grove]

Oh absolutely. He put his face all over Hallownest

[ancient dock]

We saw no evidence, just that the moths forgot her, the statue is still on top of crystal peak

[glossy grove]

when meeting lace at the beginning of act 3 in the abyss, why does hornet blame her for pharloom falling, even though lace stopped the silk grandmother from pulling hornet with her?

[ancient dock]

I don’t think PK actively tried to erase the radiance

[sudden pivot]

Seer states the Moths forgot the Radiance

[heavy falcon]

I think Hornet was absolutely ready to sacrifice herself

[ancient dock]

Yes but I don’t believe the PK actively tried to erase her

[clever grove]

Probably because Lace had rebellious desires against GMS for awhile and could have done something sooner

[deep elk]

I feel like it NEEDED to happen where it happened.
Even before the Radiance, there was the Ancient Civilization. There's something about those lands.

[glossy grove]

so if she did, would pharloom not have been infected?

[clever grove]

You mean the civilization that worshipped void?

[glossy grove]

and if she was why was she so against taking gms place

[deep elk]

Yes

[sudden pivot]

only reason GMS survived as long as she did was because she was putting 1000% effort into constantly spinning her cocoon to protect Lace, which wouldn't have happened otherwise she just would've been ripped to pieces while attempting to bind Hornet

[heavy falcon]

Unlikely. I mean GMS could probably pull the same thing, but Hornet could just kill or damage her enough to make her unable to maintain the cocoon

[fossil ledge]

Dang, it won't let me post my reply

Well, in parts then

[deep elk]

That's what caused all the chaos in Pharloom no?
So after Lace was gone, there was no reason to stay alive for her anymore.

[ancient dock]

I think the radiance was just really pissed because her followers moved on to PK she didn’t care about other Higher beings until then

[sudden pivot]

oh gosh im sorry, if its easier you can dm it to me!! ^^

[fossil ledge]

Oh, alrighty!

[sudden pivot]

yea afaik :3

[deep elk]

:3

[fossil ledge]

Although, probably better to post it here so others can look it up if need be. Would be frustrating for the latter half of a discussion like this to conclude in dms for anyone interested lol

[sudden pivot]

ohhh yeah good point!!!! :D I should have though of that my bad ^^;

[deep elk]

I wanna read too 😭

[sudden pivot]

basically we're arguing if PK purposefully tried to outlaw any rememberance of the Radiance in an attempt to kill her, I can try n find the first message if chu want :3

[deep elk]

Oh cool. :3

[ancient dock]

If lace didn’t get involved GMS would have succumbed to her fate and the Void would have left pharloom alone

[deep elk]

Would be appreciated.

[clever grove]

You also have to consider that PK just showed up one day to a land that was already inhabited and full of culture and life and was like "hey guys I'm your ruler now" no warning, no diplomacy

[sudden pivot]

one min lemme see if I cant find it here

[fossil ledge]

This is true, but we also only see the glyphs in that temple(?). Perhaps the language used on them is for the specific purpose we see there, whatever it may be. Possibly recording the history of the Moth Tribe? We do know they also used the language of the kingdom, if only because they all presumably speak to the Knight in that language, and used it to speak to the mourners that came to the Resting Grounds.

Although it is true the Pale King wanted worshippers for himself, he never forced anyone to choose him. We don't really know that he commissioned/built the effigies and statues himself though. He likely didn't, considering he very rarely made public appearances and all statues get parts of his anatomy wrong. Hornet's dialogue is strange in this regard, because neither the Pale King or White Lady were ever depicted as hostile or oppressive in any way. Although the dev note is certainly an interesting insight into the developer's thoughts when designing the world, it isn't canon and can never be taken as such because we know Team Cherry has changed a lot of even major things throughout development.

What do you mean with uneven treaties?

Is there anything that suggests what you're saying regarding the Pale King's military decisions?

What effigies are you talking about? We only ever see the statue atop the Crystal Peaks depict the Radiance. What does Seer's comment have to do with this?

It's likely at least a number of the tribes also started speaking the language of the kingdom, but to what extent is hard to say. It might just have been in dealings with the kingdom such as all the pilgrims that passed by their lands. We don't know that the Moth Tribe abandoned anything beyond just worshipping the Radiance, though.

It's true that Unn may have had more shrines in the past, but we simply have nothing to go off of here. It's just a guess. I'm guessing the stone carvings you mention are the tablets that can be found in Greenpath?

Part one xD

[sudden pivot]

oooo that makes things easier! X3

[fossil ledge]

Wall of text lol

[sudden pivot]

just follow the replies there @deep elk

[glossy grove]

but she wants to protect lace so she has to still keep up the silk?

[fossil ledge]

There are things suggesting the Pale King has power over the dream realm. The White Palace, the Path of Pain, the traps both have which were likely added in the dream realm, and the white dream essence are all suggesting he has power over the dream realm. Correct, we see the dream particles when there's something related to the dream realm present, so?

The Moth Tribe had a fabled Dream Wielder that would be able to cut through dreams and help them atone for their sins. The Dream Wielder would wield the Dream Nail, which we know that when fully awakens allows the bearer to enter and exit dreams freely, as well as travel through the dream realm, as well as collect dream essence. None of the tribe ever accomplished this role, and its known capabilities are orders of magnitude smaller in scale compared to moving an entire building into the dream realm, along with an entire court, and changing the layout while inside it.

Most of the Pale King's powers aren't mentioned at all, just shown or implied through things in the game. We also don't see anything that would suggest the Moth Tribe was involved with the White Palace in any capacity. This is just speculation, but given how great of an even the Moth Tribe having been involved with this would be, and how relevant to the Knight as Dream Wielder, one would think she'd have mentioned something about it had it been the case

Part two. I apologize to the others having a discussion here for the wall of text

[sudden pivot]

no worries!! I will say I might not be able to respond tonight since its getting real late for me but I will do my best to give my immediate thoughts :3

[ancient dock]

Tbf Pale King didn’t force anyone to follow him he convinced them to and he was pretty chill and respectful about the whole thing even left the Mantis and Bees alone

[deep elk]

Thanks :D

[fossil ledge]

Now that I think about it, perhaps I should've posted this in hk lore

[zinc pivot]

#sk-lore becoming #hk-lore

[sudden pivot]

yeah....

my bad.....

[ancient dock]

SS is hollow knight lore it a sequel

[fossil ledge]

That's fair, we've been at it for a while now xD

[clever grove]

It's not that he wasn't chill it's that it was out of nowhere. Completely out of left field and probably pissed the Radiance off cuz she had been ruling the moth tribe for so long