sk-lore

[midnight tree]

Your reward for work is more work, and stop Working is a sin, so you have to pay YOUR MONEY to KEEP WORKING

[ember river]

Also, the "sin commited" for not reviving might have been due to not reviving as a dreg husk, or not coming back as a fly

[maiden meteor]

If you think Pharloom cannot get any worse IT CAN

[trim lark]

theres a hidden room in whiteward(? i think?) that has some lore on how the discarded sick people silk is turned into the flies

[zinc pivot]

You dont need to spell it out word by word, this is a lumafly

[ember river]

Except one is a common bug seen everywhere and the others are clearly seen

How they are made

[trim lark]

thats not a lumafly

[maiden meteor]

Pharloom is like literally Dark Souls world with how messed up it is

[gleaming creek]

Do we have any evidence of a barnacle area being cut? I've heard multiple people mention it, but is there any evidence?

[maiden meteor]

Trailers

[zinc pivot]

Not the same appearance, a different land call it a different name
But the nuance is about the same as the plasmium argument

[ember river]

-> Doesn't look the same
-> Don't fill the same role
-> Don't have the same origins
-> "Yeah they're pretty much the same"

[green charm]

DLC, anyone?

[trim lark]

coral gouge was in a lot of early drafts of the map, before being cut presumably due to it not fitting pharloom

[maiden meteor]

Sands expansion DLC…

[zinc pivot]

Seer turning into a lumafly post death is about as suggestive as it could be

[green charm]

I would actually love that

[zinc pivot]

The whole whiteward deal is simply reinforcing the idea

[ember river]

Seer is an oddball already

[trim lark]

you can see how the citadel has affected MULTIPLE places
big ass beautiful ocean area probably wouldnt fit

[green charm]

Sands of Karak is rehydrated after the Citadel falls

[gleaming creek]

Is that where the bearded snail guy and his village would've been?

[ember river]

She turns into essence

[trim lark]

likely

[terse warren]

Sands also does seem to be mentioned in Cradle cages

[trim lark]

sandsea wastes

[terse warren]

Yeah exactly

[ember river]

That's not Karak

[trim lark]

yeah not karak

[green charm]

Different sands, I suppose

[trim lark]

but probably still a place filled with sand

[trim lark]

and water

[green charm]

The Sands of Karak used to be the Corals of Karak, right? I haven’t fought Crusty or anything yet so I’unno

[zinc pivot]

Coral Gorge

[trim lark]

yeah it used be a flourishing coral area

[zinc pivot]

But well Sands of Karak sounds badass

[ember river]

The Coral Tower at the middle

[zinc pivot]

Maybe it used to be oasis of karak

[keen compass]

'Dear one... Life for you... A source... Life for all'
Hear me out- The Lifeblood god and lifeblood is the reverse of the void

[green charm]

Mmmm
There are still patches of coral about so I honestly think it could be rehydrated

[trim lark]

somewhere along the line the citadel either forcefully dried up the coral area or the passage of time did it in

[keen compass]

I think the lifeblood is some form of tortured eternal life

[green charm]

Zylotol’s assistant

[trim lark]

whatever the case it would appear that khann knew it was coming and crusted up with a bunch of his men

[zinc pivot]

So the centipedes in Sekiro

[keen compass]

the guy in wormways even with his heart ripped out is still twitching and alive- its mad creepy

he also still sings

[green charm]

There’s an innuendo here somewhere

[trim lark]

https://tenor.com/view/baja-blast-gif-820080344769328293

[maiden meteor]

I mean he’s wired to infinite Lifeblood supply

[keen compass]

With every game the lifeblood only gets more mysterious, creepier,, and more dangerous

[trim lark]

also for whatever fucking reason one of khanns men is just him

like we would be doomed if the watcher was in the coral tower memory

[keen compass]

Hornet's comments on it are thst she is absolutely disgusted by what it does

[green charm]

I wonder what it tastes like

[keen compass]

No wonder the pale king outlawed it

[trim lark]

blue
it tastes like blue

[digital hemlock]

Sweet

[green charm]

No wonder it was outlawed

[zinc pivot]

Cursed blue gatorade

[maiden meteor]

Dude decided to aurafarm instead of doing anything

[green charm]

Dang, I don’t have synesthesia

[ebon silo]

Lifeblood is blue and methamphetamine is blue

[zinc pivot]

Blue gatorade makes you feel healthy and also a major concern if overconsumed

[fossil bobcat]

In hollow knight lifeblood was weird but not too bad, in silksong team cherry took it up about 50 notches, in the next game lifeblood could be the antagonist

[green charm]

It… is?

[maiden meteor]

Like Watcher only attacks us if we interrupt his aurafarming

[zinc pivot]

You don’t feel healthy with meth though

[green charm]

Lifeblood is secretly blue crystal meth

[zinc pivot]

Take even less hits with it

[keen compass]

It was the same level of bad in hollow knight, the pale king just took care of it and outlawed it

[trim lark]

the original hornet dlc having a whole lifeblood spire would probably also explain the random hk dlc that IS lifeblood

[keen compass]

In silksong, the lifeblood has been allowed to run rampant

[fossil bobcat]

I'm talking about our knowledge of lifeblood

[green charm]

HK DLCs

• Drugs
• Clowns
• Fighting god

[zinc pivot]

Hope we get to explore lifeblood spire in pale lake

[digital hemlock]

I think it tastes like sweet and mildly savory like the taste of the one medicine made of cockroach extract

[ebon silo]

Why is lifeblood blue and why is a chemist is experimenting it y'know what other chemist experiment with blue things

[zinc pivot]

Because that appears to be where it was found

[digital hemlock]

It’s like umami slightly

[green charm]

Cockroach extract?

[digital hemlock]

康复新液

[maiden meteor]

you forgot Ao3 fanfiction turned real dlc

[digital hemlock]

Idk what its name is in English

[keen compass]

Our knowledge hasn't really expanded much- We knew it was incredibly dangerous and addictive with a higher being that exists in both physical and dream realm behind it

[green charm]

Zylotol… we need to cook

[trim lark]

i mean itd be fucking funny if lifeblood just tasted like cough meds

[green charm]

Oh yea

[zinc pivot]

Blue color is mainly an antithesis to the orange infection

[ebon silo]

It's blue fucking meth

[zinc pivot]

Cough syrups have tasty kinds
I guess

[fossil bobcat]

Lifeblood tastes like gatorade if it didn't have any flavour and just tasted like the base ingredients

[digital hemlock]

Cockroaches make d- glycosamine which is beneficial for you for some uses

[terse warren]

I'm saying it could be the wastes to the left of Karak/Blasted

[maiden meteor]

-Say my name.
-Jane Silksong.
-You’re damn right.

[green charm]

Hm

https://tenor.com/view/aidan-gallagher-aidan-aidansarmy-lemoncult-the-more-you-know-gif-24039600

[muted rover]

do you think the DLCs for Silksong would give us an option that involves leaving either on the surface or near the blasted steps?

[digital hemlock]

Apparently the medicine is just called kangfuxin liquid

[fossil bobcat]

One can dream

[maiden meteor]

Wouldn’t surface just lead into Mount Fay drop

[ebon silo]

Needolin expansion DLC is basically the dream nail but you needolin an entire region and going into it's memory and what it was like before the haunting

[digital hemlock]

And it’s like scientifically tested, but I still don’t understand why anyone would get to the conclusion that cockroaches should be tested as medicine in the first place

[ancient dock]

Go to a neighbouring kingdom maybe Garmond or Sharka home

[ebon silo]

I can confirm this I was the photographer of team cherry

[green charm]

Lifeblood -> Kangfuxin -> The letter K -> Kang -> Crust King Kang is made of lifeblood confirmed

[maiden meteor]

Anything is tested as medicine afaik

[fair zealot]

why are there underworkers so high up in the citadel at the beginning of act 3

[green charm]

Chemistry is a wonderful thing

[muted rover]

wait how did it work for HK before with the DLCs when one has unlocked everything before it was added? Should the DLCs require us to restart or no? I'm hoping no

[digital hemlock]

bilewater before citadel 🗣️

[green charm]

Back then it was just Water

[maiden meteor]

The Water

[digital hemlock]

And the music is the same but with calm strings and stuff

[median forge]

Oh yeah I didn't actually go into lore about any of the areas

[ebon silo]

no it just gets added wdym do I have to explain Fortnite terms

[median forge]

Is bilewater like collective waste

[ebon silo]

Literally like it is

[median forge]

Bug shit

[green charm]

Yep
It’s just where the Citadel dumps their junk and the maggots like to eat it

[digital hemlock]

Also groal grew the muckmaggots to defend aga8nst silk

[median forge]

Omg hornet literally falls into bug shit and piss

[green charm]

It probably smells positively wretched

[trim lark]

i mean bilewater pre citadel is just that room shakras master dies in but a lot larger

[digital hemlock]

Maybe to purify the water? Idk

[green charm]

Really? That was smart

[digital hemlock]

Also I find it weird how different muckmaggots are from maggots

[ebon silo]

One is green one is not

[green charm]

Hermit crabs are different from crabs

[muted rover]

no i mean i played HK fortunately when all DLCs are available

Like it shouldn't require a restart of save when they add a DLC while you're in Act 3

[digital hemlock]

But like not this different

Maggots are cute and have large heads with two lil eyes

[maiden meteor]

Act 3 has essentially all content available anyway

[median forge]

Bilewater was probobly a swamp tho

[trim lark]

i wouldve just guessed that the maggots grew to evolve to eat silk

as you know the greymoor workers tirelessly attempt to catch silk and send it back up to citadel (at least before the haunting)

it wouldnt be out of place for some to appear in bilewater and be used as food

[digital hemlock]

And muckmaggots are just like irl maggots

[ember river]

Heisenbug

That's the moment when Zango became Heisenbug

[ebon silo]

If there's lace where's shoes

[ancient dock]

Lifeblood is just a blue radiance infection by another higher being

[ember river]

I don't think it's like the radiance

[median forge]

More like shoe

[ebon silo]

ACT 4 secret boss

[digital hemlock]

But lifeblood is physical

[maiden meteor]

blud stole Rad’s homework

[green charm]

Phantom was going to be named Shoes until one of Gamama Silk’s attendants shot it down

[ember river]

It clearly propagates physically

[digital hemlock]

Granny silk is a theatre kid

[muted rover]

You think lifeblood is worse than the void?

[green charm]

Hey, Lifeblood was in Hallownest before the infection was

[ancient dock]

The infection was physical as well

[ember river]

The infection propagated through dreams

[ancient dock]

Except it was orange pulses

[ember river]

That's a key point

[green charm]

Practically speaking, does it matter
They’re both bad
They’re both bad

[zinc pivot]

Either your mind poof or you are kept a zombie for the rest of your life

[ancient dock]

Yeah just saying their similar

[maiden meteor]

Lifeblood seems to be chill with void

[fossil bobcat]

The radiance takes over your mind, the void takes over your soul, and lifeblood takes over your body?

[digital hemlock]

No lifeblood is aesthetically beautiful

[zinc pivot]

Either way is shite

[digital hemlock]

Void is ugly

[median forge]

Lifeblood gets you through addiction! So it's bug cocaine!

[green charm]

Snitch takes over your wallet

[ember river]

The void doesn't take over your soul

[maiden meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-slap-grindle-silksong-gif-8686429894569673815

[muted rover]

That's how you get tempted on lifeblood

[ember river]

GMS = Grand Mother Snitch

[digital hemlock]

Gay men suck

[fossil bobcat]

What

[zinc pivot]

So world strongest god is just a cat burglar

[maiden meteor]

You climb Cradle and there’s Snitch pickpocketing Silk

[median forge]

Well fuck you too

[digital hemlock]

Im gay

[median forge]

Oh

[ember river]

Think of how large the pockets of the god of silk are

[maiden meteor]

GMS ahh statement

[zinc pivot]

He means gay men suck

Whatever they suck

[green charm]

Snitch comes out as transfem when she’s older and then takes over Pharloom

[median forge]

Well I still hate you

[maiden meteor]

Grand Mother was probably homophobic

[ancient dock]

If raidience was lucozade then life blood is more like gatoaid

[ember river]

I mean, they do suck something alright

[digital hemlock]

Exactly

Which is why her name is gms

[fossil bobcat]

Grand mother salubra

[zinc pivot]

No grandmother was sexist

[digital hemlock]

Flawless

[zinc pivot]

She loves daughters

[green charm]

Can confirm

[digital hemlock]

That’s why she doesn’t ever have sons

[maiden meteor]

Keep conversation civil you fucks

[median forge]

Do we know the origins of greyroot 🧍‍♂️

[maiden meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-floppy-hornet-slap-nuu-gif-11086988873395759079

[green charm]

FIGHT ME! GRAAAAAH

[zinc pivot]

No, greyroot is some ancient ass parasite

[digital hemlock]

Hey I never suck

[green charm]

Back to business

[zinc pivot]

That spreads to bilewater and originated from shellwood

[median forge]

I'm really fucking interested in this stupid thing

[green charm]

Do we ever get an origin?

[ember river]

No

[green charm]

Hehe yea
Greyroot is cool

[digital hemlock]

We know she’s a witch

And grey, and a root

[ember river]

Or worships a witch

[maiden meteor]

Greyroot just plants itself into bugs and emerges Alien-style

[green charm]

Hey, is the Moss Shaman related to the Snail Shamans

[fossil bobcat]

Wait you're right

[median forge]

Xenomorphs all over again

Bug xeno

[zinc pivot]

Moss Druid

[green charm]

Oh; right

[ancient dock]

He’s a parasite

[maiden meteor]

nah he’s just junkie

[ancient dock]

That it really

[green charm]

I mixed up the name and then drew a connection with said mixed up name

[ebon silo]

How the fuck did nuu bounce from the same wall that just ruined the laww of reflection

[ember river]

It's pretty alien coded

[maiden meteor]

Hornet just does that

[median forge]

Holy shit, hollow knight beyond soil update??? WE SOAR INTO THE STARS!!!!

[green charm]

Nuurodynamics

[maiden meteor]

Moss Druid is really funny

[green charm]

Agreed

[maiden meteor]

they get high on mossberry and give revelations

[digital hemlock]

Makes me wonder if the white lady was ever freaky like that

[green charm]

I wonder if it’s magic or if it’s just LSD

[ancient dock]

Nah we seen what she capable off

[zinc pivot]

She lays eggs

[ember river]

The white lady seems more normal, but it'd be undeniably funny if she just parasited some pale being a long long time ago

[maiden meteor]

both

[zinc pivot]

Or fruits

[opal beacon]

Waiting for City of Steel DLC Day 1

[green charm]

Oooooh
Magic LSD

[maiden meteor]

Pharloom is full of drug addicts

[zinc pivot]

To be frank mossberry has some magical qualities given it can regenerate silk

[median forge]

Regerate

[zinc pivot]

Shut the up

[opal beacon]

Lifeblood come into play

[ember river]

The alchemists are just doing fentanyl

[digital hemlock]

And also, why can the white lady birth kids with something else and not from something else

[median forge]

But up is my favorite movie :(

[fossil bobcat]

Shut the up case right now mister

[maiden meteor]

Mossberry is probably like psilocybin

[median forge]

What the fuck is this supposed to mean I'm confused

[green charm]

Likewise

[zinc pivot]

Because she aint that kind of root

[median forge]

You can't make me!
-# hoe

[digital hemlock]

Why does she birth kids with the pale king while greyroot births kids from something else

Births herself from something else

[maiden meteor]

Greyroot is freaky like that

[fossil bobcat]

Go to your room!

[digital hemlock]

And how does she even have kids as a root

Does she like strangle the pale king too and like break pieces off of him

And with the pieces she makes eggs

[median forge]

Guys what if the white lady IS the grey root ong

[ancient dock]

Birds and the bees

[digital hemlock]

Like how greyroot strangles hornet

[maiden meteor]

PK would be into that

[median forge]

That would imply the pale king had a choking fetish

[green charm]

Come to think of it, Greyroot and the White Lady look fairly similar

[ancient dock]

Probably not that way though

[median forge]

Maybe it's her final form

[green charm]

His other partner is a spider

[digital hemlock]

That’s why hornet agreed to that

[median forge]

And she needs to rebirth through another higher being

[maiden meteor]

“Hey babe, time to save Hallownest!”
“Yes honey…”

[digital hemlock]

Because it’s in her genes to do the freaky with root

[median forge]

Hornets like... Uhm close enough yknow

[terse warren]

So what do we think of the Ant Shopkeeper's Needolin dialogue

[median forge]

Which shopkeeper 🧍‍♂️

[green charm]

I honestly think it’s very cool that the ants have their own language

[median forge]

oHhhh

[digital hemlock]

But I find it weird that most of pharlpom shares the same language

[median forge]

WAIT I remember

[digital hemlock]

With hallownest

[terse warren]

"Why like this... Strength... Faded... All for her... Last, loyal... Loved..."

[median forge]

It's the guy with the boomerang

[terse warren]

I'm talking Needolin

[maiden meteor]

Beware the man who speaks in ant

[digital hemlock]

My name is wing gantenna

[green charm]

Maybe the HBs speak the same language and then teach it to the people they colonize

[digital hemlock]

Collect my wingdinged ants

[median forge]

Omg he was in love 🥹 (I think)

[maiden meteor]

Maybe he was the last Karmelita loyalist

[terse warren]

My best guess is that they're talking about Karmelita

[digital hemlock]

Also I find it interesting that the workers in bees and ants in the hk verse are male

[green charm]

I know but I wasn’t talking about that
I was tangenting

[digital hemlock]

I think maybe it’s for art reasons so that they are more distinct from their queens?

[terse warren]

It's interesting how the outcasted ones seem to be the ones still loyal to Karmelita

[maiden meteor]

aren’t else under Haunting

[green charm]

Perhaps they just have different concepts of gender

[ebon silo]

Kinda funny if there was a character who just happened to have W.D in they're name for no apparent reason

[terse warren]

Yeah but they also just kinda split up due to Karmelita not singing anymore

[ebon silo]

Wing dung the female version of dung defender

[maiden meteor]

Wallsinger Darmelita

[terse warren]

It's also interesting how all the outcasts aren't haunted, yeah

[ebon silo]

The forgotten ant queen

[median forge]

Wend dupdate

[median forge]

Wait this ain't mc

[maiden meteor]

Hollow Knight: Wingdong

[median forge]

Wingdong ditch

[digital hemlock]

Wyrm D’Hornet

[median forge]

Is that a one piece reference

[maiden meteor]

at this point we’re gonna create GMS’ forgotten middle child

[digital hemlock]

Unintentially

[ebon silo]

The most reasonable one

[ebon silo]

The shoelace 😭

[digital hemlock]

Shoe

[median forge]

Great mother sote

The mother of great prince zote

[maiden meteor]

Grey Mother Zote

[heavy gyro]

Was blasted steps artificially created by the citadel which led to karak's ecosystem to disrupt and become a wasteland

[digital hemlock]

And shoe had a male love interest called song

[ebon silo]

Nah I think that shit is just a wasteland

[digital hemlock]

That’s why it’s called silksong

[ebon silo]

Who silked her

Wait that shit sounds bad 🥀

[heavy gyro]

How did karak become a desert then

[digital hemlock]

And song was birthed by grand father song

[green charm]

Yep
Yep
That sounds weird

[ancient dock]

Drought

[ebon silo]

By the haunting and citadels pollution

[maiden meteor]

Im gonna silk

[digital hemlock]

Named after himself since he isn’t creative with names

[ebon silo]

Wait a minute

[median forge]

Wait what's the haunting again

[digital hemlock]

the full name is songson

[digital hemlock]

We have no idea

We know that 1: it’s recent despite silk being in the bugs of pharloom for ages

[ebon silo]

Oh yeah blasted steps is I think just connected to wormways @heavy gyro

[honest thunder]

the building of the citadel blocked moisture from reaching the west side of the map via the rainshadow effect, which is also why putrified ducts and bilewater are so wet

[maiden meteor]

GMS strung everyone up

[median forge]

Haha wet

Super wet hehe

That's funny

[digital hemlock]

2: if it was intentional, gms is stupid
If it was not intentional, weird since widow is helping with it so it has to be intentional

[maiden meteor]

but Verdania is also dried up

[green charm]

I think the Citadel just uses a lot of water

Hopefully those areas rehydrate eventually

[median forge]

It's a steampunk haven

[maiden meteor]

ngl Verdania is probably cooked

[green charm]

Yea

[median forge]

So I'm not surprised

[maiden meteor]

Coral area might still have chance

[green charm]

I forget where Verdania is

[ebon silo]

Probably? It already did

[muted rover]

If i understood it correctly for sealing GMS in act 2 and what we did in act 3

She's trying to drag Hornet with her since she can't escape and that's where Lace came in to cut off her arm so Lace and GMS were transported in the void.

However, GMS protected Lace(?) by forming this sphere of silk continuously to prevent Lace from getting completely consumed by the void. Hence why silk imbued with void tendrils are coming out from the Abyss that is going to destroy Pharloom.

So GMS didn't expect Lace to do that and she doesn't want Lace to die. If she was the only one that were sent in the void, she would have accepted her fate?
So GMS actually cares about Lace?
And given time if Hornet didn't do anything, GMS couldn't protect Lace forever and both of them would have been consumed by the void plus Pharloom is destroyed?

[green charm]

Wait can someone pull up a map

[edgy barn]

East of crawlake

[ember river]

The coral area is completely cut off from any source

[green charm]

Ah
Craw lake is fairly wet, no?

[digital hemlock]

Yep

[ember river]

Also, the idea thay the citadel takes water from there is outright wrong

[edgy barn]

yeah

[digital hemlock]

Also the whole reason gms is trying to capture hornet and the other weavers is to milk their silk

[edgy barn]

But all of verdania's fauna and flora is already dead

[honest thunder]

here's a question, if after the events of silksong there were a conservationist organization trying to restore pharloom's ecosystem, what would they do?

[digital hemlock]

For purposes not explicitly said but can be assumed to for sustaining lace

[median forge]

Mmmm yess the silk

[muted rover]

Did GMS created the weavers? I'm basing off what i saw from the First Sinner

[edgy barn]

They ain't coming bqck

[green charm]

I’m not quite sure, to be honest

[ember river]

There is no intake or pipeline into the Citadel from Karak or the Blasted Steps, someone suggested that Mt. Fay used to have liquid water and when it froze, the Coral region was dried up

[digital hemlock]

Yes but now they’ve all fled

And gms wants to get them to milk their silk

[heavy gyro]

Sands of karak is just connected to blasted steps, so if blasted steps was created by the citadel for a path to its entrance, it would make sense for karak to become dried up and lose all its water. The name "blasted" steps could imply that the cave was artificially detonated for a wide area

[maiden meteor]

probably dead too

[ember river]

Become alcoholic because Verdania is extinct

[edgy barn]

Why would GMS need to extract silk from weavers when she herself is the primal source of silk

[maiden meteor]

since half breed is all GMS can find

[honest thunder]

that seems unlikely since the bugs of mount fay are adapted to the cold... maybe only the peak used to be frozen?

[ember river]

Blasted in this case seems more like a synonym of dillapidated

[ancient dock]

Grey prince is a higher being

[digital hemlock]

From what I can assume, she must either be unable to produce more or she can’t produce the right silk

[muted rover]

ohhhh so that makes GMS her ancestor

is she 2 part higher being? 1 as Wyrm and 1 from GMS?

[maiden meteor]

she’s asleep up until Hornet comes

[digital hemlock]

Since phantom is like expiring without the maintainence and lace is soon to come

[edgy barn]

Well we know she can still produce because that's what the haunting is.

[ancient dock]

What is zote actually?

[ebon silo]

A regular ass bug

[digital hemlock]

I do think it’s definitely intentional they named her grand mother, but I don’t think weavers are a direct descendant judging from first sinner cutscene

[ancient dock]

To strange for that

[median forge]

Just s bug with a really big ego

[maiden meteor]

Zote is HIM

[digital hemlock]

But the silk was already inside the bugs for generations and gets passed down when bugs have babies

[median forge]

And pride

[ancient dock]

Plus he got his own guanlet

[digital hemlock]

So from what I can tell she used to make tons of silk but now just can’t or something like that

[maiden meteor]

“An intruder amongst gods”

[ember river]

Wrong

[muted rover]

hmmm

man hollow knight lore sure is wacky, i can only imagine the DLCs and sequel to silksong

[ember river]

He's a the creator deity taken shape as an annoying bug

[ebon silo]

Let me guess a bug that is a bug but different

[ember river]

He wants to put the world to a test

[green charm]

You know I wonder
With Snail Shaman-style fuckery could they not yank samples of the fauna out of the mind of someone who remembers?

[ember river]

And if they fail he'll blow it up and make a new universe

[ancient dock]

I definitely think there more to zote then a regular ass bug

[honest thunder]

that's a cool idea

[ember river]

It's an extremely power intensive technique

[digital hemlock]

Materialization magic stuff

[maiden meteor]

I think we killed only person who did remember

[honest thunder]

also there is still some of verdania's plantlife preserved in the memorium

[green charm]

Oh definitely but it’s plausible

[ember river]

Also this

[digital hemlock]

As far as I know the hearts are also materialized out of thin air

[ember river]

I mean, yeah, if instead of killing GMS they managed to harness her power for that it'd be possible I guess

[green charm]

Hornet saw what it was like, right?

[ember river]

I think they come from the bug you kill but are somewhat transmuted in some way

[digital hemlock]

Without the shaman’s involvement except the elegy

[ember river]

Also, hearts aren't actual objects and living things from a memory

[muted rover]

i think what's difficult to measure is how time passes in both games

both games doesn't really explicitly use a measure of time correct, like i can't even really think how REALLY old is hornet with specific numbers

[digital hemlock]

They come from the memory versions you killed, as two of their irl versions are dead already

[maiden meteor]

trying to harness GMS sounds like even worse idea than harnessing void

[digital hemlock]

And the corpse of nyleth isn’t even there

[green charm]

-# Whiteward

[maiden meteor]

This is no place of honor

[digital hemlock]

Which also, there seems to be so many things wrong with white ward

Like it implies gms controlling bugs was only after pharloom industrialized

[ebon silo]

Can a 9mm bullet kill GMS

[ember river]

No, Khann is actually alive (somehow) and Nyleth is weird and I don't want to talk about her

[maiden meteor]

if bugs are bug-sized, yes

[digital hemlock]

IRL khan doesn’t have needolin speak so no

[ember river]

If they are bug sized then a 9mm is probably as large, if not larger than that

[terse warren]

P sure he does before act 3 actually

[green charm]

Khan and the crust crew making a comeback soon

[ember river]

His death animation is the same as a living coral soldier

The dead, statue-like ones just break apart

Khann is consumed by coral growths like all the living ones

[maiden meteor]

What’s the deal with Watcher anyway

[digital hemlock]

Bugs aren’t bug-sized since the kickstarter page I think or somewhere else mentions hornet being able to throw her needle up to 30 yards away

[maiden meteor]

what did he watch

[ember river]

Sleepy boy

[ember river]

The Kingdom's Edge I guess

[green charm]

HK ref no way

[digital hemlock]

Which means they are likely from dog sized to kid sized

[ember river]

I don't think kickstarter mentioned measures are that canonical

[edgy barn]

The threads of the haunting aren't the threads already inside the bugs, those just make it easier for th haunting to take hold as they are both silk. Also, GMS makes a giant silk cacoon in act 3

[terse warren]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Locations#:~:text=In the Coral Tower's throne,the pale light..."

[terse warren]

Look under the Sands ok Karak section

[ember river]

That's some bullshit theory someone came up with to justify weavers being captured

[digital hemlock]

True but also we don’t have anything else on this so it’s the best we’ve got

[ember river]

It makes absolutely no sense and is not to be regarded at all

[ember river]

Yeah, fair

[terse warren]

It's more logical to me that having given some Silk to the weavers her output is less

[ember river]

That'd make large bugs like Pure Vessel or Traitor Lord absolutely terrifying

[ember river]

She gave them the ability to produce silk

[digital hemlock]

Dialogue with the seamstress has her mention hornet’s ability to form silk from soul which is what the citadel wants, so maybe it’s silk that’s made of soul that gms can’t make

[green charm]

The Weavers produce their own silk

[ember river]

Also, she is the god of silk, she can make infinite

[digital hemlock]

And silk made of soul might be what is needed to sustain things like lace and phantom?

[terse warren]

Yeah it might've cost her some output speed

[terse warren]

No she can't

Gods in this game aren't omnipotent

[ember river]

Hornet herself can already make infinite silk

[sinful nimbus]

If she could make infinite silk she wouldn't be scrounging up every last bit of silk would she

[maiden meteor]

she looks pretty spent in Act 3

[ember river]

Why wouldn't GMS be able to in a much larger scale

[ebon silo]

Why the fuck is hornet bending her hip forward and not backward like does she not want us to see the curve

[terse warren]

No she can't, she needs to take soul from other bugs to produce Silk

[ember river]

The silk recycling was done by the citadel bugs

[ember river]

Have you actually played the game?

[green charm]

THIS GUY WANTS TO SEE HORNET’S CURVES

[digital hemlock]

True and also one of the non canon endings in the data has hornet like absorbed by gms and new silk shoots out

[ebon silo]

I'm sure her infinite silk regeneration is from half wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel bugs are haunted and therefore under GMS's command

[ember river]

Silk Hearts:

[terse warren]

Tell me where Hornet makes infinite silk

[ebon silo]

WHO WHO'S THE GUY

[ember river]

Before the Haunting

[sinful nimbus]

Also I'm not talking about recycling I'm talking about the capturing of weavers

[terse warren]

She can make 3 notches and no more

[digital hemlock]

So I’m guessing gms plan is to do that and use hornets ability to finally be able to make more silk

[green charm]

You

[ancient dock]

Is this in game lore though or gameplay?

[terse warren]

Looks like an output limitation to me

[ember river]

When is it ever, even once, stated that she captures weavers for her silk

[ebon silo]

WHOS YOU AND WHERE IS YOU

[digital hemlock]

Game lore, stated by seamstress

[digital hemlock]

Stated by seamstress

[terse warren]

Hornet says that she got captured for her ability to make silk within her shell

[digital hemlock]

Which, she might not be reliable but she’s the best we’ve got

[terse warren]

Have YOU actually played the game?

[sinful nimbus]

[Hornet]:Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
[Hornet]:Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both.

[digital hemlock]

Actually no, noticed by seamstress but hornet says it in conversation with seamstress

[sinful nimbus]

And the seamstress dialogue yes

"They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell. Not for themselves but for the one atop it all."

[digital hemlock]

I forgot where this one is but also this

[ember river]

That same line also mentions another being having the same capability as her

[sinful nimbus]

We can infer her motive for gathering silk is sustaining Lace

[ember river]

The one being haunting everyone

[ember river]

I hate that theory with my guts

[sinful nimbus]

Why

[ancient dock]

You can argue she can generate infinite silk after absorbing Eva though

[digital hemlock]

But lace did say how fragile and soft and useless she is

[ember river]

Because it makes no sense that the "primal source of all silk" doesn't have silk

[ebon silo]

Watch out Olivia might grab your guts and fix you

[digital hemlock]

She got milked

[sinful nimbus]

She either doesn't have it anymore or she can't produce it fast enough

[ember river]

Who's Olivia

[ebon silo]

Silked*

[digital hemlock]

Wait no that sounds so wrong

[terse warren]

Almost as if GMS wants to do something similar with other Weavers

[ember river]

She can make a huge cocoon around her

[ebon silo]

Oh you haven't watched the pilot episode nevermind

[ember river]

From what series

[maiden meteor]

GMS was put to sleep so it makes sense she cannot make much silk

[ebon silo]

Knights of Guinevere

[ember river]

Oh the glitch one

[maiden meteor]

because shes asleep

[green charm]

A KoG ref in the wild
Intriguing

[ember river]

That olivia

[edgy barn]

And has enough silk to haunt most of pharloom

[ebon silo]

Truly

[digital hemlock]

Which, my idea for why this might be but likely not true but I can’t think of better reasoning is, only silk spun from soul is useful for lace

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really see a reason to discount the first possibility

[digital hemlock]

And she can just make infinite normal silk

[terse warren]

I'd argue it's the second one, and getting back more weavers might allow her to do it faster

Kinda like the lantern tool we get

[digital hemlock]

Which can explain why she still has bugs capture weavers while she can just make giant cocoons and stuff

[terse warren]

Or Binding Eva

Or Silk Hearts

[ebon silo]

Would it be crazy if we found a radiance statue half destroyed in the nameless town

[edgy barn]

Lace was created by GMS. If she's made out of magic Silk, is because GMS can make it

[ember river]

Everything points towards her having plenty of it
-> Eva can give you such a skill and it's an imperfect version of GMS
-> Hornet states that Widow wasn't the one producing the silk that recently haunted Bellhart
-> In the same dialogue she states she's getting hunted because of her ability to produce silk she mentions another being sharing that quality, which basically means they still have it

Why would only half of that dialogue apply

[digital hemlock]

Which is why I think she just ran out

Of magic silk

[terse warren]

So why would GMS want Hornet for her ability to make Silk, if she can already make enough? It's clear her output is too low

[ember river]

I believe that's one of the biggest plotholes of the game, because in act 1 it seems like it was the citadel bugs with their own agency who kidnapped you for their own means, but then you find out they're all haunted

[digital hemlock]

The game definitely implies more that her running out of all silk is the case and doesn’t emphasize any silk being different from how it’s produced, but that’s the only explanation I can think of that doesn’t conflict with her making tons of silk in act 3 to create cocoon

[ember river]

Also, her output can't be too low when she ensnared a whole town

RECENTLY

[digital hemlock]

That she ran out of magic silk only

[glossy badger]

Also the dialogue about her making the silk cocoon fast enough to keep her safe from the void consuming her

[digital hemlock]

And she ensnares people with silk that’s less magic

[terse warren]

So you're refusing to believe the most obvious answer and calling it a plot hole instead

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but either she is running out or her output is too low like Aubrey mentioned

[ember river]

The most obvious answer is contradicted at several points

[sinful nimbus]

Of course she has silk but she doesn't have enough

[digital hemlock]

Or, she needs soul silk

[ember river]

Silk is soul silk, that discussion is null

[digital hemlock]

Oh

[ember river]

I don't think there's a reference to silk that isn't the soul one

[terse warren]

Except we have no idea just HOW MUCH Silk might be needed to sustain Lace, seeing as Hornet says in the journal entry that you'd need a lot of Silk to do that. Who knows, maybe you need more than you'd need to ensnare a town

[sinful nimbus]

Like multiple different pieces of dialogue state she was captured for her silk and Lace's journal entry states an enormous amount of silk would be needed to sustain Lace

[digital hemlock]

Wait then it has to be just that she ran out of all silk

[sinful nimbus]

Put two and two together

[digital hemlock]

But the time soul silk was mentioned was also when they mentioned it being the reason of hornets capture

[ember river]

So, if the output of the primal source of silk isn't enough, why would a half-breed be any better?

[ebon silo]

GMS has pretty shitty foresight for a pale being

[digital hemlock]

So the ability of weavers to make silk has to be significant somehow despite gms with the big cocoons

[ember river]

GMS clearly trusts Hornet enough to keep Lace alive when she gives her power to leave the Void

[terse warren]

Only PK has ever been stated to have foresight, not all pale beings

[ember river]

Only wyrms

[ebon silo]

I thought wyrms

[ember river]

Not necessarily pale beings, or the PK alone

[sinful nimbus]

1 + 0.5 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 > 1

[digital hemlock]

Also, I think Barron said it but, yeah, only wyrms

[edgy barn]

If her issue is not having enough silk, why is she wasting so much with the Haunting? I get the citadel bugs, but wha about the skarr, the random pilgrims or chef lugoni?

[ember river]

What's that

[glossy badger]

There's this line somewhere about the weavers talking about they work too hard. I can't remember where it was

[ebon silo]

Why is there math in my game

[edgy barn]

If her issue is not having enough silk, why is she wasting so much with the Haunting? I get the citadel bugs, but wha about the skarr, the random pilgrims or chef lugoni?

[terse warren]

Can you think of any other way Lace could've survived??

[sinful nimbus]

A greater than sign

[digital hemlock]

The silk was already in them long time ago

[ebon silo]

Make her like phantom

[ember river]

What's the point if she starves to death anyways

[ember river]

What's that sum I mean

[digital hemlock]

as shown by whiteward and by other lil parts of lore

[digital hemlock]

And for whatever reason the haunting is recent

[ebon silo]

Either to keep lace alive is literally do the same thing as GMS but your hornet or throw lace to the void and void given form

[digital hemlock]

But the silk that haunts was inside them for a long time

[ember river]

You can throw some numbers around, sure, but I'd rather get an explanation

[terse warren]

Hey would you like to die right now or in 50 years?

[ember river]

If my death in 50 years was essentially my body rotting away I'd go the Phantom route

[edgy barn]

That's not the same silk that is causing the haunting, the dialogue makes a distinction between the silk in the bugs and the haunted threads. The former enables the latter

[sinful nimbus]

2.1 which is greater than 1

[digital hemlock]

They meant that despite the half and quarter weavers being lesser than gms in silk production, they still contributes to overall amount

[ember river]

What do the numbers mean smartass

[terse warren]

Do you know what old age is

[sinful nimbus]

Silk output

[digital hemlock]

I just said it

[ember river]

From where

[digital hemlock]

Here

[ebon silo]

Did GMS purposely made the haunting or was it like some sort of effect during her slumber

[glossy badger]

I think gms didn't want to keep making silk as it was too hard work to keep doing it. That's just a personal interpretation though

[ember river]

Check Phantom to see what silk-bodies think about dying of old age

[sinful nimbus]

Silk's silk output + The silk output of the weavers would be greater than her silk output alone

[digital hemlock]

The smol numbers are metaphor for the captured weavers and the 1 is gms

[sinful nimbus]

The actual numbers are made up but the point is that

[ember river]

0.2 isn't 1/8th

[digital hemlock]

It’s a metaphor

[ember river]

So your point is that GMS has an arbitrarily given silk production that she doesn't even give away

[digital hemlock]

If taking this literally then also weavers would be much smaller than 1

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[ember river]

I still don't see how Lace can be kept alive after SotV if that was the issue at hand

[sinful nimbus]

She very well might not stay alive

[digital hemlock]

No they’re just saying that the reason she still captures the lil weavers is because any extra silk is help

[ember river]

According to this there's no way she could survive other than GMS winning

[ember river]

That defeats the entire point of GMS resisting

And the entire narrative of act 3

[terse warren]

One person that clearly enjoys fighting prefers to go out fighting rather than old age, so clearly ALL of them must want the same...

Also, why the hell would GMS care??? She just wants her daughter to live for as long as possible

[digital hemlock]

gms is resisting to keep lace alive

[sinful nimbus]

Her life is prolonged which is in GMS's interest but she may not stay alive indefinitely

[terse warren]

No?? GMS would choose the 50 years over the right now

[ember river]

So she can then die in a way that she's shown to hate in the needolin dialogue in the exhaust organ?

[ancient dock]

Phantom is on her way out, a fight is preferable

[sinful nimbus]

?

[terse warren]

You're just assuming that GMS cares about what Lace wants

[sinful nimbus]

I mean she clearly doesn't

[ember river]

Guess narrative doesn't mean anything

[sinful nimbus]

"Better a child spun mad than none"

[terse warren]

What does this even mean

[digital hemlock]

Yes because gms doesn’t care what lace wants

She just selfishly for herself wants a living child to love

[ancient dock]

☝️

[digital hemlock]

Lace herself doesn’t even want to live

[ember river]

The entire narrative of act 3 was about giving Lace an actual chance at life, and GMS resisting to grant her that chance, I'd say GMS running out of silk makes no sense no matter how you look at it

Much less to upkeep Lace

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like Lace is going to die immediately after Act 3

[digital hemlock]

If gms doesn’t resist, lace will die very quickly with her

[ember river]

If then she ends up accepting Lace suffering the same fate as if she never even sought Weavers

[digital hemlock]

Which is better than lace dead

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really know why you'd expect Lace to last indefinitely that's not feasible

Nothing lasts forever that's a core part of the first game

[terse warren]

Because the only other option is Lace dying right now???

[ember river]

Forever, no, but GMS resisting over what was thought was impossible just to give her what in her eyes is a speck of time seems pretty dumb

Not to mention the god of silk running out of silk

[terse warren]

Which to GMS is clearly preferable to no time at all

[digital hemlock]

Anything to keep lace alive a bit longer

[digital hemlock]

And in the end ironically her destroying pharloom almost is what allowed lace to live

[terse warren]

The god of dreams was forgotten and Pale King couldn't save his kingdom despite his foresight

Gods are not omnipotent

[digital hemlock]

So she’s dumb but still, it worked

[ember river]

Yeah, and the Radiance is still an extremely powerful threat

[sinful nimbus]

Its not implied she can have infinite silk whenever she wants

[neat plank]

is knight stronger than hornet? not including his void form

[ember river]

Well she can definetely produce enough to survive in the void for a substantial amount of time

[next spoke]

The strongest being/entity should be the void itself as it seems to be sentient and unkillable with the ability to kill higher beings

[terse warren]

GMS is a powerful threat too??? Radiance can't make infinite infection just like GMS can't make infinite silk

[sinful nimbus]

No one is claiming she doesn't have any silk but either she's running out or she can't produce enough to sustain Lace

[digital hemlock]

or that lace needs special silk or fresh silk or something

[ember river]

Again, she can survive in the void. For a rather long time too

[spark rock]

What's gms?

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't refute what I said

[digital hemlock]

If she doesn’t resist she can’t survive

[ember river]

Grand Mother Silk

[sinful nimbus]

Also "survive" is a funny word for a being described to be in her death throes

[spark rock]

ty

[ebon silo]

I wonder what silk tastes like from GMS directly

[digital hemlock]

gay men suck

[ember river]

And yet she's still capable enough of producing a massive silk cocoon on a whim

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[digital hemlock]

Like silk I think

[edgy barn]

This would be believable if GMS didn't expend large amount of silk in things like the hanting or snaring bellheart.

[ember river]

Which that, added up with the entirety of the silk used in the Haunting, is not enough to sustain Lace?

[digital hemlock]

Which is tasteless almost

[ember river]

If that's her upkeep it's not 50 years, it's 50 minutes what Lace has left after leaving

[spark rock]

silk has a very weird consistency when you taste it

[ebon silo]

But it is from GMS

[next spoke]

I think the biggest difference between gms and the radiance is that GMS is a very physical threat that possessed people m with physical silk from a physical summit whereas the radiance is a creature of dreams who doesn't seem to have a true physical form or at least not anymore

[sinful nimbus]

"She expended a large amount of a resource therefore she can't possibly be running out"

[digital hemlock]

Which is why I think she needs special silk that she can’t make anymore

[sinful nimbus]

You realize how that indicates the opposite right

[terse warren]

She's really not using that much Silk for the Haunting, however for Lace Hornet says it takes a LOT of Silk to upkeep her

[digital hemlock]

As they did say that weavers specifically have the power to spin silk from soul

[ember river]

How do you know that

[digital hemlock]

Which is why I think that trait is what she wants specifically

[terse warren]

Almost as if, and hear me out, 50 minutes is better than 0 minutes

[ember river]

Most, if not all bugs are haunted

[sinful nimbus]

"She spends an enormous amount of silk on the haunting" and "she doesn't have enough silk to sustain Lace" work together

[edgy barn]

If she needs the silk so badly, why is she spending it in things that don't contribute to keeping Lace alive?

[olive umbra]

Do you guys think the hollow knight world is bug sized or human sized

[next spoke]

Keep in mind she only uses the silk for the haunting when someone approaches like we see when hornet enters a room

[sinful nimbus]

"I spend all my money on gambling therefore I can surely afford food"

[ember river]

She's also haunted the far ends of the kingdom

[craggy bison]

How did sherma get through the grand gate

[ember river]

That's not the same at all

[terse warren]

She's just seeking the Silk that's already inside the bugs and sending a threat to them, also what Eeeeen just said

[sinful nimbus]

Haunting is pretty important for retaining control

[ember river]

We left it open for her

[sinful nimbus]

She's also using the haunting to gather silk

[ember river]

What about the wild bugs that had no silk inside, they are haunted as well

[terse warren]

If GMS wasn't Haunting Pharloom they'd put her right back to sleep

[digital hemlock]

He gets in even if you get in through the organ, so I’d say his singing just opened it

[craggy bison]

What happens if you go through phantom?

[digital hemlock]

Since the pilgrims did say singing opens the gate

[ember river]

Again, why would that be GMS instead of the much more likely case of it being the bug-controlled Citadel before the Haunting

[ember river]

He is cleared of all sin by the Last Judge

[next spoke]

Thers conflicting evidence for both, some pieces of evidence include no fall damage for anyone if im not forgetting anything which is a trait of bugs but on the contrary the way water naturally drops and flows from the blue lake and the size of the drops suggests a full sized world

[digital hemlock]

And the 5 bells must have been obtained for you to enter through organ so the other condition is met too

[craggy bison]

Well yes but did she just open the door for sherma

[ember river]

Yes, Sherma is that holy

[sinful nimbus]

Because its stated Hornet's captors were all under GMS's will?

[craggy bison]

Makes sense

[spark rock]

do y'all think she makes back more silk when haunting? if yes, then I'm guessing she isn't doing it enough, no? if not, then why is she doing it in the first place instead of sustaining lace?

[ember river]

I mean the silk gathering

[sinful nimbus]

And all captured weavers end up missing in the Cradle?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not talking about Greymoor

[terse warren]

Why would the case be much more likely though? They don't go looking for any weavers for years and the moment they do they get haunted by GMS? Who keep in mind hates weavers? It's also explicitly stated that it's GMS who wants Hornet and not the Citadel

[ember river]

Or the whiteward

[digital hemlock]

Sherma can open the door himself by singing

[next spoke]

Im starting to distrust sherma, he's cute, everyone loves him, I love him, but he's not dead, and if he's not dead then he's a threat, either he dies in the dlc or something worse is going on

[ember river]

Because the facilities we see were built during the rule of the bugs, who we also know used silk extensively?

[ember river]

I don't think DLCs will kill any major characters. Elderbug survives the entirety of Hollow Knight too

[spark rock]

erm, it's a he 🤓

[next spoke]

Im so sorry for my oversight imma change that, thank you sir so much

[terse warren]

You didn't respond to why they would only go looking for Weavers after all this time and not any sooner

Also, they got a massive ball of Silk right at the top of the citadel that they can use...

[spark rock]

no problem, rookie mistake

[edgy barn]

That only applies to the citadel. Groups like the skarr, the roach herders and the common pilgrims don't have the means to sleep GMS.

[ember river]

The weaver thing was definetely GMS and the Haunting, what I'm trying to figure out is why, since I don't think silk is a good explanation

[terse warren]

I don't think Occam's Razor is a good explanation, therefore I can't find any explanation for this

[edgy barn]

I have to disagree with you there, I think the narrative implies clearly that is GMS who wants the weavers

[ember river]

Yeah, GMS wants them, by silk I meant silk production

Not her name lol

[terse warren]

GMS first got put to sleep by the Weavers and has been sleeping since then. It's not impossible to assume she doesn't know who can do what

[olive umbra]

Honestly a full sized world would be way more interesting considering how barren the surface is

[ember river]

I'm just very skeptic about silk being an issue when we see it being used extensively in places that are barren or useless to her protection or Hornet's capture, with large amounts going to a defenseless village as well.
And besides, if upkeep was an issue why not gather silk from the pits in the Whiteward or something, she's bound to know there's a ton of it laying around in certain places

[clever rapids]

wait holy fuck, i knew the cogwork dancers looked familiar

they genuinely had lore

[ember river]

They have some pretty cool lore, yeah

[clever rapids]

like at first you'd think they've got a cool aesthetic

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are probably a better source than a random silk dreg

[ember river]

They are, but if she's really that desperate, you'd expect those reservoirs to be empty by the time to arrive

[sinful nimbus]

Why does she hunt wild buffalo instead of chipmunks

[ember river]

It's not hunting buffalo instead of chipmunks, it's why go out and hunt buffalo if you're starving instead of eating chipmunks you already had stored

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know why those dregs would be of much sustanence for Lace

[ember river]

They are something, why not use it if you need it so desperately

Or why bother with haunting a bunch of traders in a town instead of sending your loyal weaver to kill them, or anything else really if they bother you so much, it's more silk efficient

[terse warren]

Because it's better to use your resources on a big prey than waste them on something not worth the bother

[ember river]

Then why does she waste them on something not worth the bother?

The bellheart folks can't possibly fight back

[stray fog]

Maybe she needs an astronomical amount

[golden olive]

is GMS talking to hornet when she says “Come, child… witness our waking” in the silk heart memory?

[ember river]

Maybe, but then again Lace has been alive for a long, long time, so she could upkeep her during her slumber

[sinful nimbus]

She wants to haunt people

Controlling Pharloom and sustaining her daughter are the top priorities

[terse warren]

1st of all she might not know that 2nd of all she needs to keep the bells blocked so that people can't get into the Citadel

[spare pendant]

I thought she was only haunting so she could sustain lace

and wake up

[ember river]

If she didn't know that her servant has using her silk to string up a bunch of weaklings that's pretty shit awareness for a higher being, all the while apparently knowing about the bells, which doesn't really make much sense if she doesn't know anything else about the new order

[digital hemlock]

I think the whole pilgrimage thing is not from gms, it’s from the citadel bugs

After gms falling asleep

[terse warren]

A higher being that's been asleep for maybe hundreds of years

[golden olive]

i agree, i don’t think there’s any content that implies that GMS is haunting for any reason other than lace

[terse warren]

Also I'm saying she might not know that Bellhart can't do shit and doesn't want to risk it

[digital hemlock]

Since the widow is under direct command of the gms, she must be doing what she’s doing to perpetuate the haunting on purpose

[ember river]

And yet was aware enough to find and send armies to capture weavers in other kingdoms

[spare pendant]

it is

[digital hemlock]

It is?

[spare pendant]

the entire point of the pilgrimage is implied to be for harvesting workers basically

[ember river]

Yeah, the pilgrimage was well established before the Haunting

[digital hemlock]

But the workers work for the citadel

[ember river]

They also mention the Haunting being a relatively recent occurence that's endangering the pilgrimages even more

[spare pendant]

yes im agreeing

[digital hemlock]

While the gms is already lulled to sleep a long time ago

[digital hemlock]

Oh right yeah

I thought you meant it is for the gms

sorry

[ember river]

It's not fully explained where underworkers come from but I discussed an idea with Sammy yesterday about Underworkers coming from all these lore tablets mentioning Citadel orders to "send all workers" in Greymoor and Deep Docks

So they probably got "ascended" into the citadel by working instead of doing the pilgrimage, and as reward they got... more work

[digital hemlock]

I think in greyroot and deep docks

These are just orders to send supplies

[ember river]

Supplies and all workers

[edgy barn]

Two of the underworker types match up with pilgrim types

[ember river]

I found it odd the first time I read it

[digital hemlock]

No, the end part is like a slogan from all workers to show their loyalty to citadel

[ember river]

It's possible some pilgrims got sent there too

[digital hemlock]

‘mark of fealty, all workers’

[ember river]

That's also a possibility I guess

Still doesn't explain where did they grab the other underworkers from, so maybe it was the most hard working bugs who got sent up? Bugs probably worked with some reward in mind other than pay, they seem to think of it as holy duty

[digital hemlock]

I think they’re just born into there

Since they seem educated to treat working as a holy thing from childhood

[kindred verge]

based on the fact the Great Gate leads directly to a massive elevator down to the Underworks implies to me that most pilgrims ended up down there

[ember river]

I think that's even less likely. We do find squirrms as judge children, but underowrkers have too much variety

[digital hemlock]

So do pilgrims

[ember river]

The first room is meant to be the actual access to the Choral Chambers though, there's a blocked off passage at the top meant to connect

[edgy barn]

I personally doubt that. There are a lot more former pilgrims in the citadel than in the underworks

[ember river]

Yeah, but pilgrims aren't bred to do pilgrimages

We also don't find any child in the underworks

Like squirrms

[digital hemlock]

We also don’t find any children of pilgrims

[ember river]

Because I'd assume they grow elsewhere

[digital hemlock]

Or other citadel employees

[ember river]

And then they do the pilgrimage when they come of age if they want it

[edgy barn]

yeah because children don't do pilgrimage

[digital hemlock]

But for example the ministers and reeds I assume grew up in citadel since we don’t see them anywhere else

Same for part of the underworkeds

[spare pendant]

the citadel caste are born there yeah

[ember river]

I'm iffy about the citadel children because I doubt the parents would leave, that the children would want to see the wonders of the citadel as some surprise if they grew in there, or that they'd even learn

[spare pendant]

the pilgrims aren't

[ember river]

The pilgrims become the citadel caste

[kindred verge]

the game doesn't seem to include many young of any kind, I don't think we can use that as a reliable metric of whether or not they canonically existed

[spare pendant]

they could not

[digital hemlock]

And I feel like it makes little sense if their whole life they’ve been pilgrims that they’ll accept working in the underworks

[ember river]

Most pilgrim types are choir members

[edgy barn]

I think she means stuff like the ministers and maestros

[ember river]

Underworkers consider it some holy task

[digital hemlock]

Which is exactly why they aren’t pilgrims

[ember river]

Oh, those are weird, they may be actually bred inside the citadel like the vaultkeeper children

[digital hemlock]

Since pilgrims’ holy task is to make the pilgrimage

[kindred verge]

it's classic cult stuff "sacrifice yourself for the holy order and you will be rewarded"

[ember river]

Some are pilgrim types

[digital hemlock]

As I was saying they were born into this after generations of being in there

[spare pendant]

Yes, to reach the citadel, and pledge themselves to it

[ember river]

It's not unlikely that they were told that their holy undying task was to work the machines of the Citadel for Pharloom eternal or some shit

[ember river]

Evidence, please

We find it for Judges and Vaultkeepers

And Slabflies

It seems more likely that pilgrims were just sent to the Underworks

[digital hemlock]

My evidence is that for the maestros and ministers there’s also no kids

[ember river]

Especially with how devoted they all are, Sherma is reluctant to believe the Citadel isn't the holiest of places even when everything is a mind controlled zombie

[digital hemlock]

And also that it is counterintuitive if part of the pilgrims just get sent to become choir bugs

[ember river]

And we also don't know they're bred, that's equally as baseless

[digital hemlock]

And the rest get sent to underworks, but we know the bugs work in underworks in hope they’d eventually get up to be with the choirbugs

[ember river]

Some people are allergic to not knowing

[digital hemlock]

From loam

So them knowing their peers just directly got sent to the choral chambers

[edgy barn]

What exactly are you suggesting overall? I am kind of lost

[digital hemlock]

Makes it weird for me that they’d still willingly work for little pay

[digital hemlock]

Im suggesting the underworkers are born into the underworks

[ember river]

There's also an indication of the opposite thing in the underworker's bone scroll

[spare pendant]

it makes intuitive sense that people manipulated to believe the citadel is holy, can be manipulated to work for the citadel

[ember river]

They think they were chosen

[digital hemlock]

Which is exactly what I’m saying

[fair zealot]

religion makes people make really stupid decisions

[digital hemlock]

They think They’re chosen to be given the opportunity to work and eventually reach the holy choral chambers

And that sort of belief starts from childhood

[ember river]

They're chosen and this is their holy task

[digital hemlock]

Just like how the squirms are told to become judges as babies

[digital hemlock]

Then how do you explain loam

[ember river]

Also, why can't they be "promoted" workers from below either?

That doesn't seem too bad, work well and you reach the citadel without any dangerous pilgrimage

Of course, nobody ever gets out

[digital hemlock]

The workers from below are paid better

[edgy barn]

how do we know that?

[ember river]

Yeah how do we know that

[digital hemlock]

We kill them

[ember river]

Also, they wouldn't be told that

[digital hemlock]

They drop 7 to 8 for deepdocks workers

[ember river]

When they reach the underworks they're essentially slaves

[digital hemlock]

They’d more likely off themselves

[ember river]

It's also curious how the fire throwers in Deep Docks seem to have the general body shape of those thin underworkers except fatter

[digital hemlock]

If that’s the case

Or just not work

And we do know for a fact that both offing yourself and not working are considered crimes

[ember river]

Why? They are convinced that's the holiest task and that their situation is a privileged, that's the whole point of Pharloom's theocracy

[digital hemlock]

They live much worse lives than before

[ember river]

People weren't logical, they denied anything being wrong even when they saw it with their own eyes

[digital hemlock]

Unlike the pilgrims who become chorus bugs

Where they actually live better

[ember river]

"This is your final test, work hard and you shall join your brothers above"

[digital hemlock]

Easier to believe in if you’re a child

[kindred verge]

we always have to keep in mind that our perspective as outsiders is different from the perspective of pilgrims

we have a lifetime of living in secular democracies to draw on, but we have no idea what their background is other than their desperate faith in the Citadel

[ember river]

Everyone believes that, child and adult alike

[maiden meteor]

tbh even Choir didn’t guarantee good life

[ember river]

Also true

[maiden meteor]

you could be imprisoned or sent to Underworks or sent to Whiteward

[digital hemlock]

But good enough the pilgrims keep their faith and work hard

[earnest badge]

Someone recap me on all the lore

[maiden meteor]

Weavers are ass

[digital hemlock]

For a life like the underworks you’d most likely work willingly if that’s all you know you’re supposed to do since childhood

[ember river]

Everyone who has ever ruled Pharloom has been a massive asshole

[kindred verge]

monarchy in a nutshell

[ember river]

Then why are pilgrims there

[lethal burrow]

I woke up like half an hour ago. What are you guys talking about?

[digital hemlock]

They have been there since pilgrims were a thing

Back then when the weavers could still mind control and affterwards when the citadel was getting built up

[ember river]

Royce's saying underworkers are bred into their position

[ember river]

When were weavers ever able to mind control?

[digital hemlock]

Some of The species of bugs in which some becomes the pilgrims in the future

[digital hemlock]

Not like mind control, rule the kingdom

[kindred verge]

whether Underworks workers were largely pilgrims assigned to work there or an undercaste specifically bred for that purpose

[maiden meteor]

there’s a guy in Underworks who asks if we’re here to relieve him of his position

[digital hemlock]

As the bug in nameless town mentions being drawn to pharloom by them

[sour quartz]

if someone has a text dump of the game, could they send me all dialogue featuring instances of shakra using words from her native tongue

[maiden meteor]

Poshanka!

[sour quartz]

or just document it generally

[formal galleon]

How many baby bell beasts is there?
I swear i saw 5 when fighting the bell eater
Now when i go to bell beast theres just like 3 or sometimes even 2?

[digital hemlock]

I saw 2 when fighting bell eater

[maiden meteor]

there’s 4 of them iirc

[digital hemlock]

And most of the time I see 2 or 3

But I have seen videos where 4 are there

[ember river]

And where's your proof that the Citadel was the same when the Weavers ruled? For all we know they had much more advanced technology than what we see, not to mention the extensive use of statues and iconography depicting the current ruling castes of bugs, but none depicting the weavers

[digital hemlock]

I don’t mean that it’s the same

[ember river]

I'd say the most logical conclusion is the Citadel went under extensive reforms/expansions

[digital hemlock]

I mean that the bugs to become the under workers were there at the time as the citadel developed

[maiden meteor]

I think Pilgrim statue is just from early Citadel days

when it was still stone

[ember river]

Where's the evidence for that

[digital hemlock]

Where’s the evidence for your argument

[ember river]

We literally see pilgrim types in the underworks

[maiden meteor]

Fact that grand gate elevator heads straight to underworks has some nasty implications

[digital hemlock]

With that logic what about the other flying underworkers

[ember river]

I looked at the map and the access to the Choral Chambers was up there in the first room

[digital hemlock]

And the battle ones of which we see none elsewhere

[ember river]

I think that was just the underworks elevator

[lethal burrow]

I don't think there's much of a basis for that, but I don't think it's directly contradicted by anything as far as I know

[maiden meteor]

behind breakable wall iirc

[digital hemlock]

I don’t mean bred specifically

[ember river]

Isn't it just rubble?

[spark valve]

grand gate elevator going down and some underworkers looking like pilgrims is pretty suspicious but it's weird that there wouldn't be any explicit mention of underworkers being pilgrims

[digital hemlock]

I meant that they were just born there

[maiden meteor]

i don’t remember exactly

[kindred verge]

there is an alternate access route that's been blocked off, but it involves climbing/flying up to a narrow passage at the top of the room -- the elevator is heavily implied to be the main thoroughfare

[ember river]

OH WAIT you got me wrong

[tropic arrow]

Anyone have the Whiteward needolin thing for the silkflies?

[ember river]

That breakable wall accesses a maints tunnel yes, it's not an actual passage, but at the top of that room there's some unbreakable rubble blocking a proper access to the Chambers

Let me fetch an image

[maiden meteor]

I assume that grand gate scales reference literally scaling one’s soul

[lethal burrow]

anybody think it's a bit odd that the conductors know about grandmother silk waking up?

[kindred verge]

i know what you're talking about, I just don't think it makes sense based on the layout of the space, though I might be reading too much into the level design\

[maiden meteor]

if you were considering holy enough you’d be let into Choral Chambers

[tropic arrow]

They seemingly learned when they took over from the Weavers

[terse warren]

Do they

[tropic arrow]

I need it for something real quick

[ember river]

They were put in charge of keeping her asleep when the Weavers decided to leave

[lethal burrow]

ye

[tropic arrow]

Ballador's dialogue highly suggests it

[ember river]

I'd say that makes sense as a final climb and the general shape of the room, as if it was all a hallway once

[lethal burrow]

Also, the intro poem

[tropic arrow]

that too

[terse warren]

"Put in charge" the Caste took over the Citadel by force

[maiden meteor]

Citadel leaders were aware of GMS it seems

[ember river]

Pretty sure the weavers passed the mantle

[tropic arrow]

Nope. The Weavers seemingly willingly passed it down.

[maiden meteor]

Pontiff has some needoline dialogue about her

[spark valve]

no the weavers didn't willingly pass on power

[tropic arrow]

*"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."*

the rune harp next to Ballador

[terse warren]

I'm not surprised they know about GMS I'm surprised they know she's waking up

[lethal burrow]

they said "now you guys get to be in charge and make the bad decisions just like we did" and then the bugs decided to try silky immortality

[ember river]

@maiden meteor this passage up top is what I meant, I'd assume they made the selection between underworkers and choir members at this room

[spark valve]

The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.

[maiden meteor]

Conductor literally has Rune Harp that states passing of burden

[spark valve]

not voluntarily

[maiden meteor]

ahh I see

[kindred verge]

they claimed it greedily but it was given, not taken

[spark valve]

the burden was passed when the conductors did a funny little coup

[ember river]

The rune harp says otherwise

[terse warren]

Ballador himself also literally states they took over by force

[spark valve]

'given freely by' and 'claimed greedily from' are so different

[ember river]

They claimed it greedily because they saw the potential benefit instead of the chains that came alongside

[lethal burrow]

Everything is a sin don't you know?

[maiden meteor]

“Claimed greedily” does not imply they took it by force

just that they were happy to take it

[tropic arrow]

yeah also how I view it

[spark valve]

[terse warren]

Claimed greedily from implies they weren't given it

[kindred verge]

if you give a child a candy they will also claim it greedily, but they didn't steal it from you

[tropic arrow]

what Ballador says does not contradict the Weavers passing over their rule.

They probably didn't want to, but it also wasn't by force.

[ember river]

No, it implies they were powerhungry when they got it

[lethal burrow]

it would imply that if we didn't have other statements saying it was given:

they're grabby hands were just eager

[spark valve]

the burden being passed doesn't mean it was given freely lmao it just means the burden isn't on the weavers anymore

[maiden meteor]

Also how else would Conductor get his hands on this exact rune harp

[terse warren]

Except the other statement says that "the burden is passed" which is even more ambiguous than "greedily claimed"

[ember river]

"Passed" doesn't really convey "Ripped from our hands"

[lethal burrow]

What do you think happened?

[spark valve]

nor does claimed greedily convey given freely

[terse warren]

That the Caste took over by force

[tropic arrow]

"claimed greedily" also doesn't, as pointed out, convey "taken by force"

[terse warren]

Theft

[maiden meteor]

imo “passed” is way less ambiguous than “claimed greedily”

[lethal burrow]

perhaps the Weavers just generally gave over the Citadel to their own devices, but it was the conductors specifically that claimed the highest title greedily

[kindred verge]

split the difference, the Weavers were probably reluctant to pass on power but recognized it would destroy the Citadel regardless

[digital hemlock]

It feels like they just wanted the power for long so they extra relished it when they got it

[terse warren]

"passing of the torch" is not a literal metaphor

[ember river]

Not to mention the other Rune Harps pretty much confirm that the Weavers gave it away

[spark valve]

no they don't

[digital hemlock]

I agree

[ember river]

They planned to escape Pharloom to hide from GMS, not from any angry conductor with pitchforks

[tropic arrow]

yeah that's my view. I don't think the Weavers wanted to give up power, but it also wasn't taken by force, and more that there wasn't any other options.

[lethal burrow]

Well, there's one course of events and some people disagree with it so I wanna hear alternate interpretations if it's not too much to ask

[spark valve]

they fled... before she was sealed...

[digital hemlock]

Same

[ember river]

Then how did they rule

What kind of explanation is that, if they fled they can't seal her

[spark valve]

not all of them fled

[maiden meteor]

????

[spark valve]

some of them stayed widow says this

[ember river]

The weavers fled, then built a time machine

[spark valve]

the ones in pharloom when the conductors took over all just fucking died

[ember river]

To teach the other weavers how to flee and build a time machine

[tropic arrow]

Day 290921 of debating Silksong lore as if there is only 1 valid interpretation and no more (it's as ambigious as it gets)

[ember river]

Source?

[spark valve]

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free.

the rune harp written by the ones who stayed

there were a bunch of different plans in the weavenests

[ember river]

Or by the ones mummified along the path

[terse warren]

Strawmanning and Ad Hominem?? In MY #sk-lore ???

[lethal burrow]

We know some Weavers stayed and some Weavers left, but now the question: did some of them leave because they didn't like the other Weavers binding grandmother silk, and pretending to be gods,

or did some weavers leave because grandmother silk started to wake up, well others chose to say or otherwise couldn't get away in time.

[terse warren]

How could they have written it if they got mummified

[ember river]

Reading!? Paying attention!? NEVER

[spark valve]

if the ones who fled did it when gms was asleep they wouldn't have used the weavenests, plus per the rune harp they think their usurpers will keep her asleep

[tropic arrow]

both of which are perfectly valid interpretations

actually, they aren't even mutually exclusive with one another