sk-lore

[flint wadi]

its kinda trying to follow up on "every ending is valid" the best it can lol

[brisk finch]

+no THK shade in Skong (because it lives in ETV/DF)
I won't say more

[zealous fjord]

Excluding two

[flint wadi]

not getting into this argument again

[naive mango]

Wtf is a DNM

[brisk finch]

They said that once, pre-godhome
and 2 endings are 100% not applicable anyway, no matter what

[flint wadi]

dream no more, hks "true" ending

[sudden pivot]

I dont think Vessels get tired do they? if he's able to incapacitate her (im assuming the implication of what you're saying is that she could fight back against the sealing process and he has to wound her enough in the dream world to prevent that?) then why not just keep fighting on for however long it takes to finish the job? Hallownest lasts a long ass time after the Vessels are born THK has a while to get it done

[brisk finch]

Dream No More, the final base game ending of hollow knight

[rare meteor]

i'm guessing people have it frequently here lol

[naive mango]

And ETV/DF

[flint wadi]

parroting it wont change my mind

[brisk finch]

Embrace the Void and Delicate Flower
Same ending for the most part (beat pantheon 5 and absolute radiance)
but in one you give the godseeker a white flower first

[brisk finch]

I;m extrapolating the combat from the fact THK was botehred to be trained

bothered

[brisk finch]

I mean, what I stated are just facts no one can actually disagree with

[naive mango]

Oh yeah ik the endings just not the abbreviations

[brisk finch]

We disagree on the conclusion

Which is fair

[zealous fjord]

That’s… clearly not true

[sudden pivot]

my interpretation of it flickering between the Shade Lord and the Siblings is that either endings can be considered canon to Sister of the Void and it doesn't change that ending at all, in the spirit of "no true ending" from the first game :3

[brisk finch]

they said the all endings canon thing once, pre godhome's release
fact
sealed siblings is clearly not canon to silksong, fact

[zealous fjord]

Wait I’m dumb ignore me

[brisk finch]

Only dnm, etv and df are in the running

[zealous fjord]

Misunderstood you, I’m just stupid

[brisk finch]

It's fine 😄

[flint wadi]

its statements that are 5+ years old and might hold up as shakily as the original "all endings are valid" one, at this point its entirely interpretive and none of us can look into tc's heads

[brisk finch]

I'm not referring to any statements?

[zealous fjord]

I miss being able to engage with lore while ignoring godhome :(

[flint wadi]

just wait for the next ama

[flint wadi]

whatever youre siting

[brisk finch]

The only statement I'm referring to is the "all canon" one, which TC refuted by publishing silksong
Otherwisee I purely base it on in game stuff

[brisk finch]

Sealed Siblings isn't canon because we play as Hornet

And Ghost is clearly not a container

Like, this is in game stuff?

I wasn't gonna have this discussion but now I'm confused about waht I'm being accused of citing here

[flint wadi]

to silksong, sure
its still valid as hk, the game, is concerned

[brisk finch]

I never disagreed

I specifically said that too, actually
I even compared it to Cursed Child

Twisted Child

[naive mango]

I mean it doesn’t really matter which one is canon since it doesn’t impact ss all the way until act 3 end

And still it doesn’t

[brisk finch]

It kind of does, because etv/df leaves one big cliffhanger
The Hollow Knight is still alive

[flint wadi]

this mindset carrying into ss is not an impossible thing

ss branching off only specific endings doesnt make the others any less real, its all cocurrent and parallel

[brisk finch]

That's why it even matters
For dlc purposes

[sudden pivot]

I personally head canon EtV as the ending of Hollow Knight because I like to imagine Hornet and Lace going home to their giant trauma baby and living a domestic fanfic life with THK after Sister of the Void ending :3

[zealous fjord]

Yeah… but we’re clearly debating the validity as refers to silksong

[flint wadi]

yeah dnm theory is not dead until we get a thk return tbh

[zealous fjord]

This is #sk-lore

[brisk finch]

the world state is different depending on the ending, which is why it matters

[naive mango]

Alive but not orange goop insane

[brisk finch]

EXACTLY

[flint wadi]

thank you captain obvious i almost forgot

[brisk finch]

THK IS BASICALLY FINE AND THAT'S WILD

[brisk finch]

No need to be rude, you're the one who brought up the canonicity of endings to HK, which was never in question and specifically refuted by me

[zealous fjord]

Assuming hornet didn’t just murder his ass

[brisk finch]

That's what I'm curious about 😄

[sudden pivot]

but also I like DnM because imagining Hornet seeing Ghost again after thinking they're dead is so heart warming 🥹

[naive mango]

I mean he isn’t really fine he most likely died/turned into the void form perma soon after, his body was severely damaged

[brisk finch]

I did say basically lol
And I actually don't think so, based on nthe visual language of the scene

TC could write that in as an explanation, yes
but as it stands, the current last time we saw them was alive and capable of movement

and not infected

[zealous fjord]

I just despise EtV as the least narratively satisfying ending of like… all of them.

[brisk finch]

I think DNM works best for HK, but DF is most interesting for a sequel

[quartz salmon]

Well if the 2 shade lord endings are the true ones then THK is in the void with all it's siblings

[naive mango]

Isn’t the mushroom ending technically the actual canon ending?

[brisk finch]

Nope, THK lives in godhome endings

That's why it's interesting they don't appear Silksong's ending
it points to godhome

[flint wadi]

thats not rude, policing discussion and making useless remarks when we are talking about a tangental plot point between two games thats bound to cross over is justifiably annoying me, because this was the same exact issue plaguing hk lore

also, you brought it up, you didnt have to respond to my comment, dont try to start blaming me

[edgy barn]

Why would TC bother to show him alive at the end only to say he fell over dead right after because injuries

[quartz salmon]

Right since we never freed them

[brisk finch]

"captain obvious" isn't rude?

[zealous fjord]

It’s fairly consistent with all of them no?

[flint wadi]

it isnt

[heady brook]

or perhaps thk was elsewhere

[brisk finch]

They automatically get freed from the temple after the radiance is defeated in p5, ay!

[naive mango]

He was missing an arm and his head was cracked

[static prism]

"Let's be civil and friendly in our discussions" 🤓☝️

[sudden pivot]

I mean I do think that scene is definitely canon but it's applicable to any other ending

[brisk finch]

First Sinner's head is also cracked, and losing an arm wasn't enough to stop the boss fight

Ye Mister Mushroom is canon because Mister Mushroom is Mister Mushroom

[lean temple]

Iirc it was confirmed by TC that he leaves no matter which ending you get, signalling the end of the age.

[edgy barn]

You are missing the point. Why would Team Cherry bother to draw and animate a cliffhanger scene showing The Hollow Knight alive only to then say he died offscreen inmediatly after.

[brisk finch]

MM also knows about Hungry Knight and Tomb Cat, so I'm fully expecting him in the next TC project, HK related or not

[flint wadi]

yeah, it really makes the whole ending a lot more emotional and ties the two games together

[naive mango]

Lemme rewatch it rq

[zealous fjord]

The wacky interdimensional fungus

[heady brook]

maybe thk beaing alive was a huge silkpost

[zealous fjord]

No more, god please

[brisk finch]

Sealed Siblings is canon
Silksong is all a collective dream we're having, stuck in black egg

[heady brook]

😈

[sudden pivot]

the point I think is that a bunch of the tension of that ending comes from the question of what will become of THK now that they're walking around, and having them immediately keel over dead would be about the least satisfying possible continuation, let alone conclusion of that plotline

[zealous fjord]

Istg I will find a way to bring back the hornet is void stuff. No more…

[sudden pivot]

not "dead" you get what I mean

[brisk finch]

What is that thing coming out of her cocoon

Like, not even joking here, actually
it's clearly not void, it's all crumbly

[naive mango]

Wait so hold on hornet fight him? He’s clearly not fully cognitively functioning here he’s all hunched over

[flint wadi]

dead carcass i like to think

[zealous fjord]

So. The shamans. Did they just… die?

[brisk finch]

I try not to take the death mechanics to seriously, but it all seems to fit into the world as a baseline so... what

[modest coyote]

Good fuck em

[sudden pivot]

I like to think all creatures have a shade but only void beings have it manifest physically and so you're seeing Hornet's shade for a moment :3 (my head canon cuz of hunters notes on shades :O)

[brisk finch]

She at least arms herself to prepare for a fight, we don't know if it came to blows

[modest coyote]

(Yes)

[flint wadi]

pretty metal and kinda gross

[modest coyote]

It’s some type of… silk soul

[brisk finch]

Hmmmmm
Thinking

[modest coyote]

🥀

[brisk finch]

I so dearly wonder what became of Silk Soul mode

[heady brook]

i dont think they fight, hornet just got spooked

[flint wadi]

why did it send that

[brisk finch]

RIP Silk Soul indeed

[zealous fjord]

Next dlc. Hitless full game.

[brisk finch]

That's Glassoul and they did in fact acknowledge that

[lean temple]

Her corpse. Have you seen the freezing death animation? Similar thing

[sudden pivot]

Hornet is posturing to defend itself, THK thinks if it's seals are down something is abhorrently wrong and it's lashing out, is my interpretation

[flint wadi]

architect crest: the game

[knotty dome]

Like the lore reason why we just got the coral tower instead of a whole new area when going to khans memory

[zealous fjord]

I mean. Probably because the devs didn’t see enough reason to?

Four arenas and a boss fight was plenty thanks

[sudden pivot]

not enough time methinks

[brisk finch]

I haven't actually lol

[sudden pivot]

they say they had to cut at some point and force themselves to stop developing and start finalizing

[zealous fjord]

Plus they Alr did the whole new area in a dream for Verdania

[heady brook]

coral place died out because evil citadel

[brisk finch]

Ye I always read that as them both going WTF WTF WTF HOW WHAT HOW AAAA

[naive mango]

I don’t think THK can “think” in that state lmao he was basically possessed for years and years and is physically in very bad shape no way he could just walk and talk after all that

[flint wadi]

how do you mean

you mean why we only got coral tower in game?

[knotty dome]

Well no yeah I still appreciate that but they still gave a lore reason why the memory only unlocks the tower and not a whole new area like verdania

[brisk finch]

I dunno, cause in DNM they are shown capable of active action and thought

[lean temple]

Yeah like they caught each other off guard. Idk the need to think they just duked it out. They're both deadly in combat and jumping into a fight isn't wise.

[knotty dome]

Yes cus we go to the memory of khan and he mostly remembered his tower of warriors so that’s what we go to while green prince missed his whole land so we go the whole land of verdania

[heady brook]

he could think during the fight, he was attacking the infection

[knotty dome]

What does DNM stand for?

[sudden pivot]

they could never talk but it's obviously capable of locomotion and we know it can think from the extra sealed Dreamnail dialogue (not to mention it having a dreamspace in the first place, even if I guess you could chock that up to the Radiance)

[brisk finch]

Dream No More, the third basegame ending

[naive mango]

because it was keeping him fully alive just not full control

[knotty dome]

Oh alr

[flint wadi]

likely because you play elegy of the deep within the tower, and the memory is complete and clear so all hornet needs is to do to reach khann is go up, no need to wander

[zealous fjord]

And its ability to… like make choices. And interpret Hornet’s words

And to communicate intent to purchase things

[flint wadi]

khann did miss his whole land but coral tower was specifically his clans base of operations, and his throne room

[sudden pivot]

"HEY HEY HEY CHILL CHILL CHILL-"
"YOU CHILL YOU CHILL MAN YOU CHILL BACK THE FUCK UP-"
"CHILL THE FUCK OUT MAN DONT MAKE ME USE THIS CHILL-"
basically my understanding of the scene

[brisk finch]

Huh, Coral Towr was always in

[cloud mesa]

none of the knights r hollow isn’t that like the point lol

[brisk finch]

This is when Red Coral Gorge was still planned

(I'm looking for something specific)

[flint wadi]

in terms of gameplay its likely tc wanted to keep the three hearts somewhat consistent and not introduce a whole area to one of them

[sudden pivot]

makes sense it was probably the first concieved part of the area, originally as it's finale rather than a stand-alone gauntlet

[flint wadi]

verdania is special cause its entirely optional

[heady brook]

the knight could potentially be hollow

[knotty dome]

Was it ever said somewhere he missed his whole land? Cus I thought green prince did. Khann was a warlord and according to hornet his would have been a hard rule so he probably did not care much for his subjects other than his warriors

[sudden pivot]

nah, it's quoted as having a will which is all Rad needs

[teal drift]

I like that one side of the citadel evaporated all the water and the other side polluted all the water. Get you a citadel who can do both.

[brisk finch]

Ye, but the combat arena changed between this quote and when Coral Gorge was cut, so I assume dthe tower plans changed

[zealous fjord]

It literally makes choices. You watch this happen.

[brisk finch]

Perhaps not, then

[flint wadi]

i think the tablets left by coral folk leave that tone of reverence and respect for their lands to imply that

[knotty dome]

I don’t think so since nothing with sapience could be fully hollow that’s why the hk failed in the first place. The assumption of a sapient being being hollow was the pale kings mistake

[heady brook]

only having a will? but then what even was the point of vessels lol? Is the pk stupid?

[sudden pivot]

yeah for sure, I was just trying to give the most undeniable word-of-god example ^^

[zealous fjord]

Fair point

[edgy barn]

...I mean yeah

[flint wadi]

and yeah the warlord tower mightve been coral tower all along

[zealous fjord]

Desperate.

[teal drift]

I mean there are many cultures with tyrannical rulers who are respected and revered. Possibly most cultures through human history.

[zealous fjord]

Also, nobody knows much about void. Strikes me as a Hail Mary

[edgy barn]

The vessel plan was never going to work the way PK wanted.

[sudden pivot]

he literally says they aren't meant to have wills, or minds, they're meant to just be husks, biological automatons

[teal drift]

PK wanted to make an ubermensh pretty much but it failed.

[sudden pivot]

of course they aren't that

[knotty dome]

Actually yes it the coral tower is the only thing that fits the warlords tower quote

[south dove]

This might sound offensive but is hornet canonically racist to flies?

[flint wadi]

no she hates slab flies for imprisoning her

[naive mango]

We got a similar scenario with the broken vessel in hk the infection was keeping it alive but as soon as it leaves he dies again, even while dead it still had a dreamstate, now the BV was fully dead by the time we find it, unlike THK, but it still indicates that the infection keeps the vessels alive beyond their natural limits

[heady brook]

the white lady calls tk truly hollow, and while i dont think its true there is some possibility

[teal drift]

Slab flies are COs so its fine to be bigoted abainst them.

[knotty dome]

Speciest also they’re heavily implied to smell very bad and have disgusting mannerisms

[teal drift]

White lady is demented asf i dont trust any claim rooted in her.

[heady brook]

yeah but then shouldn't they be like unable to walk?

[cloud mesa]

white ksdy doesn’t know what’s going on when the knight meets her

[edgy barn]

She's wrong.

[zealous fjord]

Instinct. An ant can still walk

[sudden pivot]

or wield a sword, or draw a map, or as Mossbag so excellently put it open a fucking bank account, idk man ask TC how that was meant to work

[zealous fjord]

They don’t have the slightest thing remembering a mind

[teal drift]

Being “hollow” is super unclear in terms of what it means, more breaking news at 9.

[zealous fjord]

Hell, amoebae can move

[knotty dome]

Yeah but that’s the thing tho they’re not meant to have wills or minds yet they do. Pk made the assumption that the hk was actually hollow out of all the vessels which made him pick it but as we know it wasn’t hollow

[zealous fjord]

I think a wyrmrootvoid thing can manage

[teal drift]

Being hollow was about overcoming the pain of living and memory and dreams by being built different and being above conventional emotion. It failed as an idea.

[sudden pivot]

yeah thats why I kind of imagine them as automatons in a way, or at least what they're meant to be, since I think they're supposed to basically be thoughtless but actionable vessels for the King's will (eh? eh? :D)

[brisk finch]

There are no hollow vessels, pk was in fact just wrong and created more life instead

Just odd life, different life
but life, with thoughts and feelings and the ability to show kindness and care

[knotty dome]

Yeah he was stupid to think something sapient could be genuinely hollow

[heady brook]

TC wouldnt answer thats why i asked but i get it i just said that its pretty self explanatory that the vessels depict capability to decide to choose so it would be pretty stupid of the pk and white lady to think they are hollow husks

[sudden pivot]

whoopise better just lock them in the basement again, this could never come back to bite me, gosh I am so wise and have such amazing foresight

[brisk finch]

He was desperate because of the zombie plague, to bef air

[teal drift]

Tbf before they were animated by void, they probably actually were hollow husks. The PK didnt realize void packed into a shell would be able to develop true emotion.

[cloud mesa]

do we think kingsmoulds are hollow?

[knotty dome]

He did better than whoever ruled the citadel I’ll give him that. It may look grand but it’s a shit hole

[sudden pivot]

like I said I think the idea is that they were meant to be like biological automatons, thoughtless but actionable :3

[teal drift]

Probably not imo.

[brisk finch]

PK was right about 80% of things
The big wrong was just "Can vessels be hollow" and the answer is "no lol what"

[sudden pivot]

no they have Soul in them

[zealous fjord]

They probably are. But also… clearly can’t contain the radiance

[naive mango]

Also we don’t see THK in the void in the act 3 ending do we?

[heady brook]

makes sense

[brisk finch]

We do not

It's much bigger than the other vessels

[sudden pivot]

and also I think he was an asshole to Radiance for no reason and maybe a little bit of a colonizer but thats my opinion

[naive mango]

So it’s not dead

[teal drift]

The only kingsmoulds we see are dead, in a dream, or maybe just maybe the collector.

[cloud mesa]

the kingsmoulds were like mark 1 for vessels

[brisk finch]

Nah, the moths made a free choice and none of the neighbors complained

[zealous fjord]

Well. I mean did he even know she existed?

[robust wagon]

That's the theory

[knotty dome]

Like seriously it took a whole game for most people to realise the pk was genuinely a good ruler

[brisk finch]

We have no reason to think so for now, which matches embrace the void

[zealous fjord]

Before her murderous rampage that is

[brisk finch]

She was worshipped and he may have wanted to be solo god
Buuuut, if he got her followers by being a good ruler, that's on her

[teal drift]

The pale kings goal was to forcibly evolve a lifeform to combat/contain the radiance. It like… kinda worked out

[knotty dome]

The radiance was just mad no one remembered her

[naive mango]

The radiance is an opp

[teal drift]

Also its possible Pk had foresight visions of vessels stopping the radiance but didnt understand the mechanics and justified it in thr wrong way

[zealous fjord]

Not really. His goal was to save his kingdom. That was his method

[naive mango]

It’s ON SIGHT

[sudden pivot]

I just dont buy that the entire race switched cultures and languages and started outcasting any who didnt one day and PK didn't have anything to do with it, the obvious end of which would be the death of Radiance

[teal drift]

Radiance is an elite hater.

[flint wadi]

citadel wasnt really made in interests of being a fair civilization lol

[zealous fjord]

His kingdom was definitely not saved

[cloud mesa]

doesn’t winged nosk looking like hornet imply the knight is fond of her or was that just my interpretation

[sudden pivot]

especially with the dev note

[brisk finch]

I do, if Radiance was possessive before

The grass is greener, as they say
PK seems pretty neat

[edgy barn]

Where is it said that they outcasted any who didn't?

[brisk finch]

I agree with that interpretation

[sudden pivot]

fair enough, agree to disagree I suppose ^^

[flint wadi]

aw i like that

[teal drift]

PK is in the real world too while the radiance was more inaccessible.

[sudden pivot]

the fact that there is one hidden shrine left to her in their original language says it in so many words

[brisk finch]

I think it's a vaguer moment in time for the lore, with room for interpretation

[zealous fjord]

Eh. I get the idea through the mushroom dialogue

what good to see an end unavoidable

Or some such .

And

power to defy time

Strike me as “I see an end, but the void disagrees”

[brisk finch]

But PK glazing is funny

[edgy barn]

Are you talking about the crystal peak statue?

[sudden pivot]

yesh :P

[hidden wasp]

cause hes the fricken goat

[knotty dome]

Give credit where it’s due he wasn’t that bad of a person/wyrm

[hidden wasp]

only monarch to compare the pale king to is the ||grand bum silkj||

[brisk finch]

I think, without the zombie plague, there wouldn't be much to judge him fopr

[cloud mesa]

prime hallownest was pretty nice

[sudden pivot]

no need to spoils here dont worry friend :3

[naive mango]

hornet is part wyrm/weaver/void right?

[brisk finch]

No void in hornet

[cloud mesa]

she isn’t void!!!!

[brisk finch]

As far as we know

[hidden wasp]

not that last one

[sudden pivot]

if you weren't the people Hallownest was shoveling their shit into the territory of..

[naive mango]

So what is the the black when you burst the cocoon open?

[knotty dome]

He did pretty bad with architecture tho. The citadel looks and gives off more of that wow theme while the white palace is meh imo

[brisk finch]

Spiders were cool, hive was cool, mantis were cool

[zealous fjord]

Dude, black shit is everywhere in this game.

[brisk finch]

But it doesn't move like void

[hidden wasp]

only really deepnest and ngl they deserved it

[brisk finch]

Why spend money on architecture when the people need free benches and trams?

[zealous fjord]

I think he was going for for… just his own taste…

[flint wadi]

something, its not void though cause void doesnt move like that

my personal interpretation is that its hornets remains

[solemn heath]

||why is there a weavenest in the abyss||

[cloud mesa]

if hornet was void she would have a shade not a cocoon

[edgy barn]

I don't see how it implies that there were any outcasts, the statue could have been build before the PK arrived. If you mean the dream nail dialogue, I always thought that was Radiance herself.

[zealous fjord]

Which… I mean if buzzsaws are your taste then good for you

[naive mango]

No it’s a different type of black, it dusts away

[brisk finch]

The Weavers explored that area during their time ruling

[knotty dome]

Trams were most def not free haha they were regulated in purchase and very expensive

[cloud mesa]

the weavers were down there doing stuff

[sudden pivot]

yeah minus the zombie plauge my critiques of him more come from a place of leftist political principles rather than a place of "dude what the fuck was this plan" like with the plauge

[zealous fjord]

Void never dusts. Void is a fluid

[flint wadi]

weavers went into the abyss

they built nests as far as possible from silk to evade her gaze

[hidden wasp]

she would also wouldn't need to get the flower

[brisk finch]

Nah, neither is public transport in the netherlands but it's still a priority and noticable better than, say, the US

[hidden wasp]

i think it can become gas

[solemn heath]

ah ok

[brisk finch]

I really like PK's character, peak writing

[naive mango]

It’s similar to the collector

[sudden pivot]

THK is my favorite character but PK, Ghost, and Hornet are all top 5 with out a doubt

[brisk finch]

Although a lot of TC royals do have that fairy tale vibe to them of Just Kings and Queens and Tragic Princes etc
not much public policy

[hidden wasp]

look the pale king wasn't perfect but at least he made a pretty cool place the live

[knotty dome]

At least you don’t need to get into the audience with the king to buy a tram pass. (Or whatever kind of monarch you guys have in the netherlands)

[brisk finch]

Flick the Fixer is my fav in silksong, but I also have heavy protagonist bias so I cherish Ghost and Hornet (and THK)
but PK is peak
And I like Cornifer
And Shakra and Sherma are just great

[naive mango]

What IS the collector

[knotty dome]

Void

[brisk finch]

The king personally had to sign off on my name change

Last name only

[cloud mesa]

half baked kingsmoulds that went cookoo

[naive mango]

Sure?

[brisk finch]

This is not a joke, monarchies are Like That

[knotty dome]

Pretty sure the collecor is void

[sudden pivot]

Quirell.....

[knotty dome]

He melts away like the kingsmoild

[brisk finch]

QUIRELL TOO

[hidden wasp]

naked kings mold

[brisk finch]

And the fleas

[zealous fjord]

You can’t not love the massive flea. It’s just a beanbag at some point

[sudden pivot]

fuck Tiso though all my homies hate Tiso

[knotty dome]

Glad to see tc taking inspirations from our well thought out governments

[hidden wasp]

bruh team cherry hates tiso

[sudden pivot]

I saw him get crushed and I laughed

[naive mango]

Who tf was tiso again?

[cloud mesa]

collector lore is so self contained and so vague

[knotty dome]

They just hate any prideful characters in general

[sudden pivot]

exactly bro

[brisk finch]

Kickstarter backer who comments A Lot
I mean, uh, the colosseum guy who dies to mawlek in pantheon

[sudden pivot]

talks a big game and then dies off screen halfway through like colo 2 I think?

whenever the Mawlek shows up

[hidden wasp]

i feel like the collect kinda shows that a bug can like imprint it's own personality on a void being since its like hollow

[naive mango]

Oh yeah bum ahh individual

[hidden wasp]

thats my interpretation at least

[knotty dome]

Woulda loved to see him reacting to us beating his ass but mawlek got him first oh well

[brisk finch]

TBF,
Pale Court fan expac gives him a gun shield

[sudden pivot]

Pale Court mod goes hard

[brisk finch]

That's pretty rad

[sudden pivot]

omg twinsies...

[brisk finch]

😄

[hidden wasp]

pale court mod is good but haegamol sucks ass

[knotty dome]

Hornet gun vs tiso gun would be a crazy reenactment

[naive mango]

I hate the big worm charger things in the purified ducts, any lore reasons to why they’re genuinely unbearable?

[brisk finch]

Citadel

[sudden pivot]

they evolved in hell with the express purpose of fucking annihlating anything that comes near it

[brisk finch]

"Why is Bilewat-" Citadel 😄

[hidden wasp]

the citadel kinda messed up the entire right side of the map

[knotty dome]

“Citadel” gonna be silk-songs version of “blame the pk”

[hidden wasp]

the citadel is kinda just the weavers right

[brisk finch]

Nah

[naive mango]

Also the worm things in the abyss are weird, hornet comments on them being scary

[hidden wasp]

didnt they make it

[brisk finch]

You have Weaver Citadel, GMS Citadel and Conductor Citadek

[zealous fjord]

No?

[brisk finch]

Depends on the era

[peak harbor]

there’s also the higher caste

[zealous fjord]

It’s built and run by the choir in service of grand mother silk

[sudden pivot]

it was in like three different people's hands throughout it's lifespan

[hidden wasp]

but grand mother silk didnt make it

[brisk finch]

They are

[hidden wasp]

she like took over it

[glossy badger]

She didn't

[knotty dome]

Also wonder why no one talks about it but a living bug stores void in its stomach and uses it as weapons wouldn’t that affect stuff lore wise and what we know about void?

[sudden pivot]

no they made it to put her to sleep, the music is what makes her asleep

[glossy badger]

It was made as a trap to keep her asleep

[hidden wasp]

ahh yeah

but then she cursed the kingdom and took control over it

[naive mango]

I hate the big one especially more so than any other enemy in the game… other then final boss

[brisk finch]

I am uh
Terrified of bugs
and spiders
😄

Those are one of the few enemies who trigger the fear response in me

[knotty dome]

The fact that they shoot void makes it even worse

[brisk finch]

Didn't stop 100% but brrr

[sudden pivot]

cuz of the strands of her silk already in Pilgrim's bodies from their ancestors experiments in the Whiteward

[teal drift]

Its unclear how intelligent the haunting is

[brisk finch]

Ye the Conductor Era set up GMS to just... waltz in half napping

[sudden pivot]

the only moment of genuine fear ive ever felt in this series was the intro to Beast's Den, god I wish we got that boss fight so fucking badly

[teal drift]

It definitely overrides the free will of bugs but they still write choral commandments and do a lot of the same stuff as before, but on autopilot. And hornet is the only person that all of them aggro against.

[knotty dome]

The afflicted or how it targets stuff?

[hidden wasp]

i wonder how far it reachs like the chior bugs that captured hornet mustve been under the curse but they travelled all the way the hallownest

[knotty dome]

Muscle memory in a way

[naive mango]

Also can we comment about how pharloom doesn’t know how to utilize soul? Other than the frog guy in bilewater (not even using his own soul)

[hidden wasp]

ig its just anyone with silk in them is controllable?

[brisk finch]

Beast's Den, grub mimics, the attack/hit animation of the big worms in wormways, beeg abyss guys, and the big chargers in Bilewater

[zealous fjord]

Well they seem unpleasant from what the pilgrims say no?

[brisk finch]

Surprisingly small list considering the uh, main characters and stuff

[sudden pivot]

they use Silk infused with soul which is just using soul on easy mode why would they learn how to use soul

[rain gate]

he stole it from the shaman anyway
plus they have silk so they dont really need it?

[brisk finch]

They're used to spinning it into silk and shoving it into their shells

[hidden wasp]

the silk is kinda related to soul

[limpid citrus]

I can't remember where but I think some dialogue said silk was a form of soul

[naive mango]

Isn’t the silk already pre-spun and the enemies just have a ready supply to use?

[hidden wasp]

the snail shamans know how to use soul too i thin

[knotty dome]

They def have an understanding of soul, it’s what animates bugs so the surgeons of whiteward must know something about it when they extend the lifespans of these bugs

[cloud crater]

Im wondering if herrah was a skrill, elevated through gms's silk to become a weaver?

[brisk finch]

In the current era, yes, but pre-zombie plague, no

[rain gate]

oh they def do

[cloud crater]

Since we know the other weavers were pharlids

[hidden wasp]

the snail shamans are weird tho

[naive mango]

Yeah but they’re shamans

[knotty dome]

I think it was just to distinguish herrah from other weavers

[hidden wasp]

i like to imagine theyre related to the ones in hallownest

all the shamans are one giant family

[upper copper]

I still don’t understand, what the heck was widow’s intentions?

[naive mango]

Slave

[brisk finch]

On a literal level, it's probably because the "weaver" from HK is a "spider mage" enemy repurposed, and weaver lore didn't exist yet in HK like this

[knotty dome]

Probably esp on how the snail shaman from hk talked abt his family implied with was pretty big

[brisk finch]

But we're looking for in game reasons

[knotty dome]

Lore wise they probably thought of something

[teal drift]

If every bug was attacked as hard as hornet only shakra would be alive. They seem to hate hornet in particular

[hidden wasp]

yeah he talks about his 4th cousin or smth thats a big family and theres only lik 4-5 in hallownest so theyre all over the world

[teal drift]

Probably like an immune system “this demigod is a threat to our body” way

[brisk finch]

I dunno, like
yes and no
Hornet's name always had an explanation (vespa/three queens), but they weren't sure that was even still canon after making HK
they could very well have given a different explanation in silksong, if they;d wanted to

[knotty dome]

All of em different abilities too

[naive mango]

Yo the sentinel guy is kinda goated hold on

[knotty dome]

I didn’t even know they made a reason for hornets name, i just assumed it sounded cool

[teal drift]

But imo based on in game sources the haunting seems to be a strong influence but not like gms is individually puppetting them

[brisk finch]

Second Sentinal's sprite is called Song Knight, which makes me wonder about their original purpose
They're one of the oldest enemies we know of because of the reveal trailer

[brisk finch]

ye the Daughter of Three Queens idea came from TC themselves in an interview, but like I said
At the time, they said they weren't sure it was still canon

[teal drift]

And bellhart happened because of widow schizoposting and manipulating the haunting rather than that being gms’ “intent”

[upper copper]

Could it be that First sinner is innocent?

[knotty dome]

Would have loved to fought him in a Bigger room

[brisk finch]

GMS taking over appears to be a relatively recent development, based on the conductors still being around

[teal drift]

She for sure is imo

[naive mango]

All Second Sentinel glaze will be fully accepted and welcomed

[teal drift]

Keep in mind the conductors are immortal

[knotty dome]

1 conductor being around yes?

[subtle plaza]

Second sentinel is cool but the fight was easy

[brisk finch]

Dope ass design dope ass attacks dope ass help during the courier quest dope ass everything

[knotty dome]

Life extended but probably not filly immortal

[teal drift]

All pharloom were made immortal by silk experiments leading to immortal hellscape where dying comes with a permit

[knotty dome]

He helps you in courier quests?

[brisk finch]

No? They're not all immortal, just long lived
The goal was full immortality

[naive mango]

Don’t worry abt that it was so we wouldn’t hate him lmao

[brisk finch]

They happened to be in a hallway I wanted to use and cleared it for me 😄

[teal drift]

Long lived enough that theyve been sround a while.

[brisk finch]

Yes but even with the experiments, plenty still died

[teal drift]

Longer than they should be living

[hidden wasp]

well he appear and taking over wouldve been ages apart right, also her beginning to take over wouldve happened way before the radiance because the weavers were in deepnest in prime hallownest

[brisk finch]

Anyway, the point is that the conductor era had the citadel fully functioning, terribly socially but working

That is clearly not what we see in game

But it also can';t have been that long based on how badly things are going but how many people still live

[knotty dome]

I did not see one living quarters other than the conductors bed in high halls

[teal drift]

I need to review to caretaker and hornets dialogue to see how effective the whiteward expts were

[brisk finch]

I laid my point out a bit clearer I think

[brisk finch]

The fact that there even were generations tells me there wasn't just a citadel full of immortal bugs

[knotty dome]

Anyone care to make a rudimentary hierarchy of citadel folk? Like underwokrers < choir < architect < vaultkeeepers <<<< conductors

[pulsar peak]

Question. In Hollow Knight, doesnt Elder Hue wear the same color outfit Shakra does?

[brisk finch]

There's the gourmand butler, trobbio, etc who live there, I mean
not as a home, but they're fine and alive in the thick of it all

[pulsar peak]

And im fairly certain he has rings on his arms too

[ember river]

Conductors, Vaultkeepers and Architects seemed of somewhat equal rank

[brisk finch]

It seems like it
There's also some ghosts in the kickstarter area that share designs that look like the crustaceans/coral guys

[knotty dome]

His glaze for his master sustained him

[brisk finch]

My theory is that he used to have a real and proper master but is now coping hard

[knotty dome]

I assumed cause according to balador the conductors words wre basically law and that applied to everyone

[hidden wasp]

whats the kickstarter area?

[ember river]

Conductors were still on top and their rule was absolute, but the keepers seem to be in charge of the interpretation of their faith, and architects of the entire infrastructure of the citadel

[brisk finch]

something Glade, near seer

Where the backers leave their little message with their ghost ocs, not the stones

[hidden wasp]

oh hollow knight not silksong nvm

[knotty dome]

Yes cus that big guy is probably just a beast as its needolion is like “EAT MORE EAT GOOD”

[ember river]

They did, but they weren't that far off from the others, and at the very least had these two estates in consideration

[mystic forge]

Is Pavo in Bellhart like Elderbug?

[ember river]

Doesn't he wear a citadel cloth?

[brisk finch]

The point is, we know Shakra's tribe was gonna be more important based on early statements, so dragging Elder Hue into it wouldn't have been odd

[brisk finch]

No because I can't give Pavo a pretty flower to cheer him up

[cyan herald]

The grandma of the beggining gave me more elderbug vibes ngl

[ember river]

Even if Elder Hu was from her tribe, it must've been many years before Shakra was even born

[brisk finch]

Chapel Maid/the shaman?

[knotty dome]

Yeah but a gourmand is supposed to have like refined opinions on food while it’s only thinking abt how it tastes good and what not

[cyan herald]

Yeah that one thx

[brisk finch]

Wouldn't surrpise me if the butler just threw some cloth on him

[brisk finch]

BB_Caretaker in the files 😄
Bonebottom
Caretaker like their cousin/uncle up in Songclave

[cyan herald]

RIP Cloth

[ember river]

I think he was just a high citadel rank that grew super fat from just abusing his position to get good food for free

[brisk finch]

The needolin dialogue would be really worrying if that's the case

[ember river]

@brisk finch also, thoughts on Xero being from the coral tribe?

[cyan herald]

Oh damn thats interesting, thx

[knotty dome]

I was personally getting hungry while doing the courier quest

[ember river]

Maybe that's not the case, but the idea that it's one of the few bugs that fit the general shape of a conductor is so funny to me

[brisk finch]

Very much possible, although it's unlikely we'll get a clear answer

[brisk finch]

pfffffff you know what, fair lol

[green dagger]

did any hallownest citizens know about the existence of pharloom?

[ember river]

I'd say the Pale King and maybe some retainers did

[knotty dome]

We don’t meet a lot of living hallownest citizens

[hidden wasp]

I’m sure some did they just didn’t talk about it

[brisk finch]

They may have known about other places, but why leave cozy home

[ember river]

Pharloom was aware of Hallownest at least, it's not unlikely someone knew

[hidden wasp]

There wasn’t really any point in the game where it would’ve been talked about

[cyan herald]

I feel like Midwife would know for sure

[green dagger]

it's just because hallownest is called 'the last and only civilisation'

[knotty dome]

The choir yes they called it the kingdom of the white wyrm which goes so damn hard

[cyan herald]

Pale King propaganda

[hidden wasp]

I feel like a good amount of deepnest would’ve known

[cyan herald]

Yeah js an example

[ember river]

That's because it was meant to last forever, which would automatically make both of those true

[brisk finch]

It was preemtively written

[knotty dome]

If it was eternal

[green dagger]

oh! I interpreted this as 'this is the only place of civilization ever'

[knotty dome]

Same went for pharloom, they even wanted bugs to remain eternal

[ember river]

The Pale King was just the biggest case of setting up something for the future without even looking at the present

[brisk finch]

Well the present was fine before the zombie plague XD

[ember river]

Well yeah, fair

But turns out pissing off a god of dreams isn't wise

Not that it was entirely his fault, all being said

[hidden wasp]

I’d like to think the ruins of hallownest is seeing more life now that the radiation is gone

[knotty dome]

Any jojo references in silksong?

[brisk finch]

Emilitia will personally make sure o fit

[hidden wasp]

The mantases are still around if hope all the bugs that were infected wouldn’t die but lose the infection like the hollow knight in embrace the void

[ember river]

They probably rebuilt some stuff, but it would never reach its former glory

[brisk finch]

Also tbf, Elder Bug has seen people go down the well, so something is bringing curious travelers
Maybe with a bit of luck...

[knotty dome]

What’s even her lore I don’t get emilitia or her deal

[ember river]

It could be assumed the White Lady and Unn are still kicking around there

[brisk finch]

She's just Like That

[knotty dome]

Ah gotcha

[green dagger]

I wonder if civilisation could emerge after the radiance is gone. Would every infected bug return to normal? Or would each die? Would they be able to regain to the former glory without the pale king?

[ember river]

Tiso was brought in by the Colosseum, so some people do hear about Hallownest

[hidden wasp]

I feel like hornet would probably be the one who’s doing most of the hallow nest “rebuilding”

[cyan herald]

I mean THK can be seen pretty much Alive

[ember river]

Most would die, the ones that embraced it while alive they would probably remain alive

[knotty dome]

Smth abt infected bugs being normal while the heavilg infected ones die off

[brisk finch]

I know at least ETV/DF shows the infection disappearing from the roots
I don't remember if DNM also shows that (probably)

[hidden wasp]

I wonder how long after hk Silksong happens to

[naive mango]

I laughed my ass off at baby hornet it was supposed to all serious and shit but i couldn’t

[brisk finch]

The corpses would die, but early game Myla would be fine, probably

[hidden wasp]

Yeah

[ember river]

Doesn't show it explicitly but it can be assumed from the godhome endings

[brisk finch]

Biting my tongue
No I'm joking, it's a fair assumption

[knotty dome]

So people could have saved myla by doing the void ending

But she’s dead

[cyan herald]

Hahahha

[ember river]

Depends if Myla was already dead and reanimated or still alive

Which we don't really know

Also if you killed her of course

[hidden wasp]

Well technically all endings “get rid” of the infection to a certain extent

[knotty dome]

At where she is I don’t think anything might harm her other than the knight

[hidden wasp]

Sealed sibling and hollow knight probably not for long but it is sealed for a bit

[ember river]

Well yeah but SS and HK just seal her for a while

[cyan herald]

Hollow knight and sealed siblings js pospone It, no?

[teal drift]

There needs to be a new HK ending where you make the infection worse

[ember river]

The infection still kills people naturally

[brisk finch]

I do feel like there's a difference between sealing like in the first two endings, and destroying (like in dnm/etv/df)

[teal drift]

In theory the regular” Hollow Knight” would see a temporary recession in infection then eventually fail, just like when the first THK took over

[brisk finch]

In the first batch, you prevent more
in the latter, you destroy the source

I do think Ghost's odds are better, but it won't last forever

[scenic stirrup]

Since nuu is a slug do u think she'll become a snail shaman in the future

[hidden wasp]

Yeah at least in hollow knight most endings aren’t really that bad except for like embrace the void normal endings, Silksong literally all of them such except for 1

[scenic stirrup]

Lol

[cyan herald]

Radiance wise no, but I feel the void would go a different way in the second watch

[brisk finch]

The snails are all related, it's a family thing

[ember river]

They seem very different species

[teal drift]

Imo ghost is “more hollow” than thk but it would fail eventually

[knotty dome]

After being heavily disfigured through those nodes of orange but she should be fine if the knight rushed

[brisk finch]

DF solves that

[brisk finch]

Ghost isn't more Hollow, Ghost has more force of will

Hollowness isn't real, PK was wrong

[ember river]

No, I mean some people just die to the infection, probably by neglecting to eat or sleep, like the husks from the City of Tears

[naive mango]

Any reason why hornet was dripped the fuck out when talking to the white lady?

[brisk finch]

Same reason she looks like a kid with the weavers, it's what she looked like

[ebon silo]

Probably not to diss the white lady

[ember river]

Because the Pale King knew how to design a sick uniform

[brisk finch]

She was speaking to the queen in the king's palace, she must dress as a princess

[teal drift]

I mean i think hollowness is real but perfect hollowness is not achievable. The plan worked for some period of time before THK was overwhelmed.

[knotty dome]

I’m just saying there was a way to save myla

[hidden wasp]

The red memory had me freaking out over just seeing hollow knight assets in Silksong, same with the surface a little bit and sister of the void

[ember river]

You can just not kill her and go kill radiance, then she may live

[brisk finch]

I know it's cut dream nail dialogue, but pop kind of implies it anyway
THK was never hollow, THK just knew its duty and tried to follow through like a good child

[ebon silo]

Drag her ass out of the mines

[ember river]

If myla's dead it's because you killed her, I did not so she's still alive

[ebon silo]

Dead and alive

[cyan herald]

Nono, theres a run where you dont trigger the factors that infect Myla, tho I think there were a couple hard skips

[ebon silo]

I guess that's what you call...a walking dead

get it

[cyan herald]

Yes yes good one 🙄

[ember river]

You need the void heart to complete pantheon 5, and you need to get the monarch wings for that

[rain gate]

do you guys think the void is underneath every kingdom or just hallownest and pharloom?

[ember river]

The rest all require to kill a dreamer and that will also infect her

[cyan herald]

Not doing pantheon ending, js not infecting Myla

[ebon silo]

Why is V1 in a tuxedo

[ember river]

You can't

[brisk finch]

I'm assuming the "earth"s core isn't magma but void, yes

[cyan herald]

Nop, that infects crossroads, not her

[ember river]

Wait what's the trigger for myla

I thought it was shared with crossroads

[cyan herald]

Different ones

Lemme look rq

[ebon silo]

How'd wyrms even live if that's true? Like there's no a bunch of wyrms died because they dig a little deeper

[teal drift]

hK is flat earth theory tbh

[ember river]

Because they know a lot

[brisk finch]

Wyrms don't just dig, they create kingdoms

[teal drift]

Why not both

[brisk finch]

Hollow Earth theory is actually separate 😄

[ember river]

Why would they dig straight into the liquid that kills them anyways

[brisk finch]

Ever read the Tunnels series? It's based on the concept

[ebon silo]

Tell that to the pale king...with his pale-y ideas of a kingdom for all gods

[ember river]

The wizards hollowed out earth so we wouldn't figure out their secrets

[cyan herald]

Desolate dive and cristal heart

[ember river]

It wasn't really a kingdom for all gods, that's kinda why Radiance got pissed off

[brisk finch]

The only hollow thing in Hollow Knight is the planet

[hidden wasp]

Well I think there something about how void is the regrets of bugs some any kingdom with a lot of regrets would form an abyss below the kingdom kind of like void seeping down to the base of the kingdom

[teal drift]

This is hollow knight lore

[brisk finch]

hallownest was a kingdom for the pale king and his wife where he wanted his citizens to be alright, quality wise

[ebon silo]

nah radiance got pissed because the moth tribe decided it was time to change religion it's kinda their fault not the pale king I'm very sure he didn't even bother intervening or so

[hidden wasp]

Pharloom is def built in a volcano tho

[cyan herald]

Yh moths messed Up hard

[ebon silo]

They admitted it too

[cyan herald]

Yep

[ember river]

Don't you need crystal heart for any dreamer?

[teal drift]

Me ditching my vengeful god for a hot wyrm—what could go wrong.

[hidden wasp]

Even seer is like “yeah we’re kinda assholes and the infection was our fault”

[ebon silo]

had they decided not to change beliefs we would see a vast lively kingdom but then.. we wouldn't see silksong so praise for them for killing a kingdom for making us play another game

A price to pay

[ember river]

Also we wouldn't get Hollow Knight either

[cyan herald]

Idk the run tbh, look Up Myla%, i think skurry made a video not sure, if you interested

[ember river]

The Vessels wouldn't have had to exist

[ebon silo]

Nah we would still get hollow knight but it'd be like starting as hornet or some shit like a princess game

[sudden pivot]

I disagree hard I dont see an entire culture just changing their language and entire belief system on a whim

[hidden wasp]

Silksong def would’ve still happened they could’ve captured hornet either way

[ember river]

It would be more like The Pale King and His Million Kids Watch a Movie

[sinful nimbus]

Moths are described as fickle so that's basically what it was

[ember river]

Hornet wouldn't have been born either since Herrah wouldn't have become a dreamer

[sinful nimbus]

But its also true that not all moths defected to PK

[teal drift]

What if all the vessels just hung out with each other.

[hidden wasp]

Actually it hornet wouldnt have been born

[cyan herald]

Its canon moths forgot radiance and went with PK

[sudden pivot]

why does the Moths being fickle mean PK had nothing to do with it? im very confident he promoted aspects of Moth society that suited his ends

[ebon silo]

They changed beliefs because of the pale kings actual existence he could be seen you could have a Convo with him unlike the radiance who was just light at the time for the moths to see nothing else

[teal drift]

https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-want-to-play-with-you-anymore-toy-story-i-dont-wanna-play-with-you-anymore-dont-wanna-play-no-more-play-gif-26906930

[sudden pivot]

yeah thats not what im disagreeing with im disagreeing with the motive :3

[sinful nimbus]

Seer faults the moths entirely

[teal drift]

Moth lore

[ember river]

They worshipped a lightbulb
They were shown a high power LED
They tossed the lightbulb into the trashcan

[sinful nimbus]

If PK was involved with the decision we would get an indication of it but we don't - so the idea is unsubstantiated

[hidden wasp]

Pretty much what they’re doing in the void lakes rn, all the siblings are like pretty much chilling with ghost

[cyan herald]

Oh mb

[sudden pivot]

and started speaking a new language in the mean time, its not so simple a transition as you describe

[teal drift]

Ghost is the friend group leader

[ebon silo]

It's like if your believing in something that your not even sure it exist while there's another that actually does exist

[sinful nimbus]

?

[sudden pivot]

right because she's an utterly unbiased narrator

[ember river]

When is it mentioned that moths spoke another language?

[sinful nimbus]

Its not implied moths switched languages

[sudden pivot]

Wanderer's Guide or whatever its called

[sinful nimbus]

She's not indicated to be wrong

I've read Wanderer's Journal and I have never seen anything indicating that they spoke a different language

[ember river]

The mosskin seem to write in a comprehensible language for the knight as well, even when speaking to each other in that Queen's Garden panel

[sudden pivot]

there's plenty of implication she's wrong, namely the various implications of PK having imperial tendencies

[ember river]

Imagine doubting the dialogue in a game where the lore is presented through dialogue

[ember river]

?

[sinful nimbus]

Elaborate

[sudden pivot]

man

[ember river]

That's the nature of higher beings, of ALL higher beings

[sudden pivot]

im so tired of this conversation and just being strawmanned constantly 😭

[ebon silo]

The language the moth spoke was Spanish and the bugs spoke English and that was that I was there when the moth tribe shook hands with the pale king I even took a picture

[sinful nimbus]

No one was strawmanning you

[teal drift]

If anything the PK makes way more coexistence deals than he has to.

[ember river]

Nobody expects the Mothic Inquisition

[teal drift]

You just dont have any evidence for your claim PK screwed the radiance besides vibes.

[hidden wasp]

100% confirmed lore grand mother silks is the worst higher being and a bum

[sinful nimbus]

He has "imperial tendencies" in the sense that he wants to create a kingdom but that's not evidence that he convinced the moths to try and forget their god

[sudden pivot]

deepnest tram way, taking over Queen's Garden's, and general statements about both Pale Being's and Wyrm's being imperialistic in nature

[ember river]

And the mind controlling dream cancer moth isn't?

[cyan herald]

What abt the gods of rain and thunder

[sinful nimbus]

Queen's Gardens was probably already abandoned, Tramway is... a railroad

Its not like PK tried convincing the Mosskin in QG to forget Unn or whatever

[ebon silo]

I'm pretty sure that's in some random ass kingdom in who knows where

[sinful nimbus]

So its not evidence

[glossy badger]

Okay but she mad sentience out of silk so that's pretty cool

[ember river]

They were part of the mosskin and they were taken over by White Lady, not even Pale King

[cyan herald]

Yeah basically

[ember river]

She could've been chill like Unn

[hidden wasp]

Pale king made sentience out of void 🙌

[ebon silo]

Actually they died because of kratos

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that the Mosskin don't really seem to care that WL inhabits QG and even describes her as appearing benevolent implies that they don't really care and the land was probably already abandoned

[sudden pivot]

1. never mentioned the morality of Radiance, see what I mean about the strawmen being exhausting? and 2. there's nothing suggesting she was imperialistic to my knowledge prior to Pale King trying to assassinate her via cultural erasure, could totally be wrong there though

[ember river]

More like he fed sentient newborns to the void

[hidden wasp]

Nah cause the collector is sentient and in like 84% sure the pale king made him

At least made him as a kingsmold

[sinful nimbus]

I'm just curious where you are getting the Pale King trying to assasinate Rad via cultural erasure from

[teal drift]

What if collector is just a regualr dude drenched in void

[glossy badger]

Tbf gms made sapience

[ebon silo]

You can check the workshop of the pale king in white palace you can see where he made it

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like he did that to any other god and we are told who actually tried to kill Rad, the moths

[cyan herald]

How did I forget of that damn

[sudden pivot]

was 100% canon at some point cause its in a dev note and I think it's still implied to be canon :3

[ember river]

You bring up the pale king as if it was a unique thing when it's pretty much every single higher being
Also she mind controlled and wiped out most of Hallownest, what do you mean that's not imperialist? She is a god of dreams that invades dreams by force, lmao.
Also the Pale King didn't try to erase her until the infection, there's nothing written at all to imply that

[ebon silo]

God of rain and thunder that's Zeus and Poseidon right there

[sinful nimbus]

How

[ember river]

Please do provide a source

[cyan herald]

Such a crossover damn

[ebon silo]

I even took a picture but I kinda lost it

[hidden wasp]

Yeahs it’s not like he made the moss guys stop worshipping unn, the moth guys are just easily swayed

[cyan herald]

What a coincidence

[sinful nimbus]

That dev note is incongruent with how the narrative is presented in game therefore its not implied to be canon

[brisk finch]

Seer

The moth tribe were (perhaps) descended from Radiance. However, the King convinced them somehow to seal Radiance away. I guess so he could rule Hallownest with his singular vision, as a monarch/god with no other gods.The moths sealed Radiance away by forgetting about her. Hallownest was born and flourished. However, the memory of Radiance lingered (eg the statue at hallownest's crown) and soon she began to reappear in dreams and starting exerting influence. The King and the bugs of hallownest resisted this memory/power and it started to manifest as the infection. Thus the first attempt to seal Radiance failed, and the King had to try another method - the Vessel.

this is a real hk devnote

[ebon silo]

If you do 50 laps of mount fay it might appear but idk

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah this is clearly outdated

[cyan herald]

Omw

[sinful nimbus]

"No other gods" he's married to one and had diplomatic relationships with another 💔

[brisk finch]

some of the notes are 100% still canon and some very much are not, ay

[ember river]

Some of the mosskin beggars even worshipped Radiance and accepted the infection (they died)

[brisk finch]

I didn't even make the initial statement, I just saw someone ask for the devnote source XD

I love linking things and sending text

[sudden pivot]

she didn't do any of the mind controlling stuff before Pale King (to my knowledge) even though she was around long enough to have fought with the void and presumably the ancient civilization, and like I said before I believe because of his imperalist tendencies and foresight it's implied he tried to preemptively eliminate his biggest treat, one second lemme grab the dev note that confirms it was canon at some point

[hidden wasp]

It’s crazy how hollow knight had so many higher beings and Silksong had a total of 1

(2 if we’re counting the memory)

[sudden pivot]

oh nvm you got it for me tysm!!! :D

[sinful nimbus]

We don't know how his foresight works and its never implied it was involved in the moths decision to kill Rad

[ebon silo]

Shouldn't have bro killed radiance as a wyrm before he turn into a small dude

[ember river]

That'd make sense if he didn't accept the existence of Unn as another god, I'm not sure how reliable it is

[sinful nimbus]

He couldn't

[ember river]

Though it is interesting

[brisk finch]

Peak comedy

[hidden wasp]

He can’t kill the radiance since he can’t enter dreams

[ebon silo]

How

[ember river]

3 if you're counting the knight

[brisk finch]

the silksong text

[ebon silo]

Dang

[cyan herald]

I think she was taking revenge on pk for him being the reason moths forgot her, but I do agree she wasnt aggesive before

[sinful nimbus]

Rad's nature as a dream being makes her very difficult to kill

[hidden wasp]

Ig 4 since in like 1 ending hornet counts but also the knight def doesn’t count

[cyan herald]

How did he do the White Palace thing then

[tawdry flare]

Four if you’re counting Weaver Queen Hornet

[ebon silo]

He must've ask the seer

[sinful nimbus]

Well he can

[ember river]

Higher beings are also hard to kill by default

[ebon silo]

And a wyrm is a wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

-# except GMS 🥀

[ember river]

Five if you consider the Twisted Child ending as a different higher being

[brisk finch]

Some of this stuff is just canon, like hornet's gender vs the vessels or the thing on books (no books, onlu scrolls etc)
and some stuff like herrah maybe not raising hornet at all is clearly outdated

[sudden pivot]

he's the patriarch he's clearly implied to have ultimate authority, and yeah negotiations with other states is kind of part of running a kingdom, neither of those contradict the inherent idea of him rejecting other powerful gods residing in his Kingdom, which is why Unn in shunned into her corner since wiping her out isn't worth the effort

[brisk finch]

We can only accept what matches in game text, but it's still neat to know what the devs were thinking

[sinful nimbus]

There is no reason for Hornet's gender vs the vessels to still be canon

[ember river]

She only really dies to hornet because she can bind her

[green dagger]

hallownest would've been eternal if they had just followed zote's precepts (specifically 56)

[brisk finch]

She';s called Gendered child in game?

[cyan herald]

Unn is js chill like that

[brisk finch]

Gender notes

the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.

Bretta White Saviour

To obscure the knight's gender in this instance, White Prince should probably be replaced with White Saviour.

[hidden wasp]

Easy to defeat but hard to kill since you either had to trap it to the void or bind its strength and replace it

[sinful nimbus]

BV is a girl

[brisk finch]

this stuff made it in game so it's still canon
the note just confirms it was intentional

[tawdry flare]

We do have dev* notes on this it’s true

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that's how notes work but BV is a girl

[ebon silo]

Who's BV again

[sinful nimbus]

Broken Vessel

[brisk finch]

Broken Vessel

[tawdry flare]

Lost Kin

[ebon silo]

oh lost kin got it

[sudden pivot]

there's also some interesting early dialogue about the Godtuner which directly contradicts the Godseekers attitude towards it and the Knight in the final game

[cyan herald]

Yk what Ill take it

[ember river]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's false, and it wouldn't be too far fetched for the pale king, but out-of game notes are to be taken with a grain of salt unless confirmed ingame

[sinful nimbus]

BV aside I think TC is talking about sex instead

[brisk finch]

Right, I love it because it's insifght into their writing process
Caravan Spider (cut from silksong) mentions being arachni but not a Weaver, and safer because they can't make silk

[brisk finch]

Right, like the Gendered Child thing

[ebon silo]

Any more about lost kin was he probably the only vessel that got so far before ghost or

[brisk finch]

Which is in game

[ember river]

Yep, that's shown ingame

[cyan herald]

The vessel body in Greenpath:

[ember river]

Aren't stalking devouts and their like non-weaver spiders?

[sudden pivot]

I think they are fine supplementary material to other evidence, though certainly shouldn't be taken as anything significant on their own

[ebon silo]

No like in progression wise

[hidden wasp]

Lost kin didn’t get as far as the green path vessel

[ember river]

Yeah they work as supporting material to ingame evidence

[brisk finch]

" I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe."

That's all we know, from an npc that's 100% cut

They also have text for Coral

(Fast Travel npc)

[ember river]

I mean in hallownest, the stalking devout enemies who worshipped Herrah (and seem to share species with Midwife?)

[sinful nimbus]

We should be focusing on the game's evidence itself not "what the devs intended at one point in development that may or may not still be true" which is very obviously tenuous

[brisk finch]

It tells us what TC was thinking during development

[glossy badger]

They should've kept the npc in

[brisk finch]

Yes, but the term arachni is never used and no clear distinction is given otherwise

[brisk finch]

Seems like they were replaced with Bellbeast (you find them trapped in silk)
Too similar to old stag, perhaps

[ebon silo]

What they were actually thinking is they should have 2 benches that is so far away from civilization in bilewater to the point they forgot to make more lore

[hidden wasp]

Damn that guy must’ve been in the files for ages since bellbeadt was in trailer one

[ember river]

It can be handy to fall towards some theories over others, for example

[brisk finch]

It tells us that the alchemist quest may have taken place in bilewater at some point, because he wanted muckblood

There's also a mossblood variant

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[glossy badger]

I guess so. Would've been cool to have another fast travel route tho for some areas

[brisk finch]

Still in the save file too 😄

[sinful nimbus]

No evidence from dev notes has been convincing like ever

[brisk finch]

Didn't find a sprite that matches, altho the little fella in front of the pinmaster is still in the files

[hidden wasp]

Maybe it’s related to the citadel transport instead?

[brisk finch]

The Gendered Child thing and the white prince comment confirm the Knight 100% is not meant to be gendered
That's convincing

[ebon silo]

I really hope we get a dream nail equivalent DLC such as probably what I would name as Memory Like I said yesterday a theory DLC in which you you can go to the memory of an entire region and see what it was before the haunting or so

[brisk finch]

"We’ve arrived, small spider. Bellhart waits just through that tunnel. From this distance at least it seems safe enough? Perhaps the rumours of its danger were overstated? If you’re needing travel here again, I’m inclined to offer a more reasonable rate." "Thank you for your service, Sir. It may seem safe from here, but I shall keep my guard up nonetheless."

" (purchased passage, “get in!” etc)"

"Many thanks for freeing me, small spider. It was a careless move, to blundered into those deadly threads.You too look a spider, but these ropes suggest you use no silk in your service?Hoi. No! Don’t mistake. I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe.It’s no matter really. I’m a fair talent with my vineropes. Trade me a few rosaries and I’ll take you via routes only I’m able to scale."

" Gah! Traveller, please! This wretched thread has me snared tight. There must be a thick knot up above. Cut me free!"

"Travel to Bellhart?"

"(canceled shop menu)"

"Spider, I can take you to Bellhart, but I warn you, the pilgrim’s speak of bad happenings around that place.Though I’ve not seen it for myself, I’m charging a premium to cover the risk."

CARAVAN_SPIDER_TALK_THREAD "(No longer needed. Remove.)"

CARAVAN_SPIDER_MEET_CORAL "Well well. I’ve not seen this old stop in many a beat. You have my thanks for clearing it.The coral overgrowth has grown wild. The bug built structures about these climes are subsumed beneath it. I’d heard the coral was always a hard thing to keep under control, even back when the place was well travelled.Now there’s no one left to tend the path, it’s no surprise so few pilgrims find their way through."

[buoyant salmon]

So she did at least mate with some bugs already

[ember river]

You can already go inside memories

[sinful nimbus]

We have statements from Team Cherry that are actually meant to be public confirming this

[ebon silo]

But not an entire region

[sinful nimbus]

If it was just the dev notes it wouldn't be anywhere near convincing

[brisk finch]

Right, but sometimes devnotes also line up perfectly with in game stuff and can confirm intentionality

[ebon silo]

make the region alive as in nature alive so we deadass photosynthesis our way in and see their memory

[ember river]

She partnered, at leasat, she also says she has difficulty producing offspring

[ember river]

Verdania

[sudden pivot]

like the Seer literally says the Kingdom of Hallownest was born from their betrayal, how could the Pale King's kingdom be the result of a betrayal he had no part in?

[ebon silo]

It was from the green prince

[hidden wasp]

I just want the coral gorge back that’s my bone forest

[ember river]

It was the region of verdania though

[sinful nimbus]

Without the statements that came later you could argue that in the game AS IS the knight was just intended to be gender neutral

[ebon silo]

He must've photographic memory of the region so that's unfair fr

[ember river]

I'd say genderless more than gender neutral

[ember river]

What do you even mean?

[sinful nimbus]

Which is actually what the white savior dev note says "To obscure the knight's gender in this instance"

[tawdry flare]

I thought they were gender good ?

[buoyant salmon]

I would imagine if the Vessels try to have offspring, they would be like Ditto from Pokémon

[sudden pivot]

agender, if we're getting into semantics

[hidden wasp]

It’s not like the knight decided the be non binary it just had no gender in the first place 😭

[cyan herald]

Maybe they were his first followers, can be intérpreted as the start of Hallownest

[ember river]

The vessels cannot produce offspring
Also Hornet's issues come from her being half weaver, not a vessel

[sinful nimbus]

Iunno about this

[ebon silo]

Nothing I just hope for a DLC just like verdania before the collapse of everything like we genuinely get to see what sands of karak was before

[buoyant salmon]

“Imagine”

“If”

Like please read

[hidden wasp]

I just want the coral gorge back please team cherry

[sinful nimbus]

Its a sapient being and TC has responded to people asking if it was intentional for the knight to be agender with yes they are

[ember river]

Yeah imagine something impossible that can't happen, imagine you playing baseball with the Sun as a ball and a toothpick as a bat

[ebon silo]

I thought hornet could reproduce but they all would die because hornet would just outlive them and she simply lives with a tragic story of like 50 dead weaver kids

[buoyant salmon]

Do you even know Ditto from Pokemon?

[sudden pivot]

sure, but that doesn't explain what happened to all the Moth's that didn't forsake the Radiance, the fact they had to "hush" their "whispers" of faith is clearly to imply that previous Moth culture was now outlawed under the Pale King's rule, in my opinion at least

[ember river]

I do, what's your point?

[cyan herald]

Wait, didnt all moths betray her?

[buoyant salmon]

Let me repeat the KEYWORDS: IF and IMAGINE

[ebon silo]

Very possible if Galactus was throwing the sun and something like batman was using the toothpick

[sinful nimbus]

Or it was a moth decision for it to be illegal or taboo... which is coherent with the in game dialogue

[ember river]

Vessels can't reproduce and if you imagined it otherwise, you can say it's ditto as much as you can say it's photorealistic Ari Gibson for that matter

[buoyant salmon]

And who said that btw?

[ember river]

Equally impossible

[silk dirge]

they also said theyre happy people can feel empowered by that :3

[ember river]

I said that, I imagined a vessel reproducing and that led to ari gibson

[buoyant salmon]

No proof that the Void being couldn't reproduce

[cyan herald]

I got a new headcanon

[ember river]

Makes equally little sense

[sudden pivot]

but incoherent with sociology, geneally people dont just abandon their language and culture with a vengeance because they're "fickle", it's not an invalid take on the matter but it requires more assumptions than my conclusion

[buoyant salmon]

And so is a tree mating with a Wyrm, but here we f-ing are

[sinful nimbus]

Its a fantasy world

[ember river]

To be fair, sociology doesn't take into account mind altering god-bugs

[brisk finch]

There's physical gods involved tho

[sinful nimbus]

Assuming what a knowledgeable NPC says is true takes less assumptions

[ember river]

Also this, Occam's razor ftw

[sudden pivot]

I dont really see how it makes the difference, Ceaser might as well have been a god in the Roman consciousness, people didnt do that sort of 180 flip on their culture whole-sale for him

[brisk finch]

Seer is mad already at their kin, I can't see them not openly blame PK if it were true

[sinful nimbus]

Also they didn't all abandon it willy nilly

[brisk finch]

If Ares showed up physically it may have been different there

[buoyant salmon]

Tbh can we consider the Kingsmould and those void bugs is Pale King children too?

[ember river]

Thing is HK gods actually have magic powers

[brisk finch]

*mars, sorry

[ember river]

They are constructs, pretty much robots

[sudden pivot]

sure? doesn't mean we cant use real-life logic in absence of in-universe rules

[sinful nimbus]

Like you said many were forced to, presumably by other moths, which is what would be consistent with the dialogue about this very subject

[edgy barn]

I think you are thinking about this way too hard. I don't think TC intended to make a realistic despiction of societal and religious issues.

[brisk finch]

No, the vessels were literal children with the white lady

It's not spiritual, they fucked and had eggs

[buoyant salmon]

Read again

[cyan herald]

Points of view aside, yall got some great arguments, congrats

[brisk finch]

Kingsmould wasn't from an egg

[ember river]

Their response was fine

[brisk finch]

I guess it was a bit cruder than I usually talk, whoops
but I stand by the core

[sudden pivot]

im not even thinking about this hard, that being said if y'all are coming from the position that HK isn't a social commentary we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this whole convo I think ^^;

[sinful nimbus]

Social commentary on what

[sudden pivot]

monarchy and empire

[brisk finch]

Not that it isn't social commentary, but that it's making different commentary

What do we do when society falls, how do we respond
How do we treat our children

[sinful nimbus]

If it is a social commentary on that its certainly not an effective or compelling one

[brisk finch]

We screw em over to preserve ourselves

[buoyant salmon]

Also who lays eggs?

Because White Lady is a plant god, and Wyrm can lay an egg (as from the Pale King egg in his corpse)

[sudden pivot]

again agree to disgree, I find it effective and certainly very compelling ^^

[brisk finch]

WL is fighting her breeding urge in game, so probably her

[ember river]

It's a bit harder to extrapolate to kings since here they actually have magic god powers
More about what nations do to survive and stay afloat perhaps

[brisk finch]

somehow

[buoyant salmon]

I mean she could use her vine to, y’know

“Tentacle”

[ember river]

That egg is within him and gave birth to himself

[sinful nimbus]

In what way though

[sudden pivot]

the majority of people in history believed to their deaths that their monarch had magic god powers

[brisk finch]

Based on her mild shame, she's also punishing herself

[buoyant salmon]

So he could lays egg

[brisk finch]

But not that they were god

[sinful nimbus]

Its not exactly a realistic or nuanced depiction of irl monarchies

[brisk finch]

Chosen by but could lose favor

[sudden pivot]

it's more than close enough for the commentary the game is making

[brisk finch]

King Willem is not Jesus

[sinful nimbus]

"There was a prosperous kingdom ruled by a benevolent god and then it was screwed over by another vengeful goddess"

[ember river]

I don't think most people believed that they actually had magic, more like they were chosen by god (outside of things like Egypt where they were regarded as actual gods)

[brisk finch]

Billy boi is not the lord

[fading whale]

so it's pretty clear styx and skynx are the same guy using diffrent masks right
but he has other masks in his nest. i wonder if that means he takes other forms too

[sudden pivot]

I would argue they're a lot closer than most people wanna admit but not the place for theology debate

[buoyant salmon]

Wait beside Pale King and White Lady, is there any other bug that has laid eggs?

[ember river]

Huntress for example

[fading whale]

huntress in silksong, broodmother in silksong

[brisk finch]

I am actively living in a monarchy and have had this history taught to me in higher education

I am not the world's biggest expert but neither are TC

[ember river]

Flukemarm seems to lay eggs too

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone seems to lay eggs live birth is noted to be atypical

[ember river]

Yeah fair

[brisk finch]

The vast majority of monarchs were not godlike beings in the eyes of the populace, they were Special and Different and Chosen and a peasant could never rule a kingdom
but they could still mess up

And plenty of people like, killed their monarchs

Or tried to

[ember river]

Their godly status really didn't matter all that much when they fucked up either

[sudden pivot]

history has taught you what in higher education?? I dont get what that has to do with theology, maybe we were coming at it from different angles, I was mostly talking about Jesus as a monarchical figure rather than any specific relation to Williem

[brisk finch]

I am talking about the way actual kings were treated in actual history by actual peasants

Which is what you implied the topic was

And I was stating that TC was clearly not going for that by making its monarchs gods
So the responses of the lower class in HK wouldn't match real history anyway

[ember river]

Jesus claimed to be king, but also explicitly not a king of any earthly nation or ruler of men

Hollow Knight does have them be actual kings

[green dagger]

are elder hu and shakra from the same tribe?

[ember river]

Rulers of empires and all

[brisk finch]

I think the only exception might be certain Chinese and Japanese emperors, but even those could be assassinated

[ember river]

Maybe, same as Xero and the coral folks

[sudden pivot]

im talking about antiquity, you sound like you're talking about medieval europe or something

[brisk finch]

I'm talking about multiple eras cause no era actually matches

[ember river]

In China they were godly for the 5 minutes they spent without getting killed
In Japan they lasted more at least

[brisk finch]

Even the ancient greeks and romans weren't ruled by those they considered actual deities

Godlike, yes

[ember river]

Other than Egypt and some ancient American civilization (I believe the Aztecs?), promulgating that the ruler had actual magic powers or was an actual god wasn't all that common

[subtle plaza]

maybe elder hu is shakra's master's master, which explains the master of masters bossfight from noita

this is also related to the eye puzzles

[ember river]

Elder hu lived much earlier than both of them

Also why do you bring noita lore in here

[brisk finch]

I'm wondering if the tribe will show up, considering TC origianlly said you'd meet more of them

[sudden pivot]

it's not "shoot lightning from their fingers" magic its the fact they believed these men were capable of completely choosing their fate for all time, in terms of mind set it boils down to the same inherent feeling which is lack of agency

[brisk finch]

And I'm saying that outside of flowery poetry that was often just not true

Caesar, famously, was stabbed to death

[sudden pivot]

by his arch enemies? im not saying everyone universally felt this way I mean among their supporters

[brisk finch]

Ye there was a distinction between a peasant and Rulers, but the Rulers were still a huge class of potential people

[brisk finch]

Second statement was locked behind slowmode

And even peasants still cursed bad rulers!

If your god is bad and there's a new god willing to take you in, you may just go!

[brisk finch]

I typed this too

[sudden pivot]

but there's literally nothing suggesting Radiance was bad

[brisk finch]

The fact she was willing to jump to zombie plague?
The fact they did leave, with no statements made of the PK forcing it?

[sudden pivot]

Pale King was willing to jump to child genocide and abandoning his entire kingdom yall seem real quick to excuse that

[brisk finch]

The fact that the Hive was fine? As was the Mantis Tribe? As was basically everyone else? No coercion is implied in game

[sudden pivot]

NO COERCION IMPLIES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[brisk finch]

"abandoning his entire kingdom" doesn't seem to be what's depicted

[subtle plaza]

yes radiance isn't bad so we should all be enslaved by a hivemind that turns us into braindead zombies perfect logic.

[brisk finch]

He kind of died
also, zombie plague

[sudden pivot]

nahhhh im sorry I gotta go im sorry im gonna blow a gasket, have a good one yall 🫶

[ember river]

No coercion implies the Pale King didn't show up casting soul explosions and beams of light until they obeyed

[brisk finch]

"join my kingdom?"
no
"allies?"
sure

"join my kingdom?"
ye sure
"yay pls forget about the other one"
kay

[ember river]

Even the deepnest tramway isn't militarized or anything

You can't find checkpoints or soldiers

[cyan herald]

Cyaa thx for the debating

[ember river]

And they were actively hunted down and eaten by the natives

[sudden pivot]

right because kings only coerce people by firing artillery at them 🙄 yeah sorry I am getting pretty annoyed im gonna go before I say something mean

[brisk finch]

I do hope you're not actually upset, it's supposed to be a fun discussion
But I get needing to leave sometimes

(As in, heated theorizing upset vs actually upset)

[subtle plaza]

pale king isnt a good person but also radiance is worse and pale king is also a good leader or smth

[ember river]

Again, the pale king was an actual god-bug, and extremely powerful at that

[sinful nimbus]

ss-lore ain't for the faint of heart

[fringe comet]

whats the debate?

[sinful nimbus]

If you slander pk you better watch your back

[ember river]

Koal is saying the Pale King coerced the Moths and tried to kill the Radiance

[sudden pivot]

dont see how it makes a single difference

[ember river]

Which isn't really confirmed or denied

[teal drift]

Where is the indication radiance was good or bad prior to moths ditching

[subtle plaza]

"hey children go through this cool obstacle course i made or i will reject you goodbye."

[brisk finch]

PK is an average to good ruler whose response to a zombie plague was hilariously evil on every level on paper and based on a wrong assumption, but also desperate and it mostly worked

[sinful nimbus]

Its not indicated one way or another

[fringe comet]

yeah i can see it either way

[teal drift]

Theres none so this debate is really just about using nonevidence to slander the pk

[ember river]

Kings, and most states for that matter usually don't coerce with force when force is roughly equal

[peak harbor]

i do appreciate that team cherry tends to blur the line between the morality of their antagonists and protagonists

[brisk finch]

I don't think it's fair to @ them when they want to leave

[fringe comet]

"They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even."

[ember river]

Yeah, I should probably start turning off pings on replies

My bad

[brisk finch]

tbf I like it when people ping me because I want to respond XD

[fringe comet]

yeah the moths definetly turned away from Rad but coerced is debatable

[brisk finch]

like yes orange kay i need to read that for sure

[subtle plaza]

yeah like gms' relationship with her daughter.

[ember river]

Same, I'm too used to doing it but I get why some people don't

[peak harbor]

that’s true, i always saw that the inclination was more so that they turned away willingly on their own accord? but honestly we don’t know all too much about the past as a whole when it comes to tc games so it’s really just up to your individual interpretation imo

[sudden pivot]

you're right it wasnt a debate it was just me getting strawmanned 10000000 times in a row, ugh, sorry for taking it personal I was already in a horrible mood, im going to go for real now

[subtle plaza]

take it easy, hope u feel better soon lol

[brisk finch]

For what it's worth (and I'm being a bit hypocritical here with the ping), I don't think your ideas are inherently bad and I was trying to genuinely debate you, not a strawman
I hope you have a good day, at least.

[ember river]

I'm still confused as to how what I was saying was a strawman but whatever

[peak harbor]

part of the fun with tc is that they purposefully leave most of their lore up to interpretation for the mystery and wonder of it,but it also means discussions here and in general regarding lore can get somewhat heated

[ember river]

I don't want to keep being annoying

[echo trellis]

Memorium lore?

[brisk finch]

No it's simple
My opinion is correct, people who agree with me are smart, people who disagree should be banned

[naive mango]

How come laces bum ahh survives literally being in the void unscathed but garmond heroic ahh dies after going “lost”

[fringe comet]

artificial zoo

[subtle plaza]

game logic

[fringe comet]

more or less

[peak harbor]

i think it’s some sort of preserve/sanctuary

[brisk finch]

Lace isn't an organic being, just silk

[peak harbor]

she’s somewhat of a higher being herself, or descended from one, so

[brisk finch]

She's a person, but not "human"

[subtle plaza]

aren't all creatures in hk not human? because they're bugs?

[ember river]

The Citadel wanted to preserve the species and areas of pharloom and thus, the "memory" of them. When containment fails, they are "doomed to be forgotten" since they're dead and couldn't be archived

[fringe comet]

Hornet notes in the hunters journal entry for the memorium keeper bugs that "From the outset, theirs was a hopeless task. Those wild lands could never be replicated within a space so artificial."

[brisk finch]

Like, I use human a lot for these games but that's just because it kind of cuts through the veil of confusion

[ember river]

That's why human is between quotes

[subtle plaza]

oh ok

[ember river]

wrong ping

[naive mango]

She still went lost tho, so she is definitely affected by the void

[brisk finch]

whoops lol

[sudden pivot]

I just think the idea PK had nothing to do with it is absurd, like I would like the series less if that were the case, and the idea that he wasnt coercing all the other factions, (dont remember who said that) when ive spent the last four hours screaming about him shovelling his kingdoms shit on top of the Mantis's Village, it just really drove me up the wall and made me feel ignored

[brisk finch]

Yes, but it can be undone because her make up isn't the same as the other bugs

[ember river]

But garmond probably had a ton of organ damage after that

[fringe comet]

memorium is also where you find swollen versions of enemies from places like moss grotto who were overfed essentially, its a poor sanctuary

[subtle plaza]

yeah but she mostly acts like herself throughout all of act 3 which makes me question wether she was affected too badly.

[ember river]

From both getting controlled by threads in his body and soul, those threads having all-consuming void, and getting stabbed/slashed multiple times

[peak harbor]

she’s probably a bit more resistant to the void compared to a mortal bug since higher beings as a whole seem to have better aptitude against it, though they don’t last forever against it

[naive mango]

All I’m saying is laces goofy badly built ahh shoulda died

[ember river]

Lace isn't a higher being

[subtle plaza]

she's the daughter of one

[brisk finch]

You've been repeating yourself a lot, but it's statements like "shitting on his neighbors", not in game quotes and the like, which makes it hard to engage in a way that doesn't boil down to "no I read this other in game quote differently"

[peak harbor]

but she is descended from one, is what i mean

[fringe comet]

could be more resistant because she's made purely of silk, theres no actual bug there to corrupt

[ember river]

Not the daughter either