sk-lore

[vivid kernel]

in*

[tropic arrow]

Yes

[karmic tartan]

Actually they do look similar

[tropic arrow]

and if they are the same species, that opens up it's own can of worms

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is a Root like White Lady, they are a bit different looking and a bit different colored by they are still a Root. Does being a Root mean you are a Higher Being like White Lady was we dont know? But they are the same type of creature that White Lady is.

[lavish tangle]

Heh worms

[karmic tartan]

Oh I so want that feature but I don't want them to reuse the godseekers, although some more godseeker lore might be nice

[wicked comet]

greyroot is not the same as white lady since I do think she is worshipped by that alien kind and she looks more similar to the alien kind

she feeds on soul and we know that from eva dialogue and the fact that it gros for a moment if you bind

[vivid kernel]

HEAR ME OUT ||THEY USE LIKE SOME WEAVER TYPE SHIT YKNOW||

[teal drift]

Greyeoot is catching a vibe. I think the one we see in story is just a witchy person who accidentally creates a god in that one ending but otherwise was just planning on summoning a mildly powerful being

[tropic arrow]

Yeah, and that brings up questions about the White Lady. Namely, White Lady doesn't seem to need to xenomorph anyone, she lays eggs with the Pale King, but more importantly, if they are the same species, does that mean White Lady is the result of a pale being getting Xenomorphed by a root?

[karmic tartan]

Why are we treating the creature greyroot is reviving as greyroot are they the same

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is definitely a Root, they are the same type of creature as White Lady. Are they the same "Species" of root? We dont know.

[lavish tangle]

The name of the quest is rebirth

[karmic tartan]

Yeah but it never specifies greyroots rebirth

It could be mylas rebirth for all we know

[wicked comet]

grey root seems more like the void in my opinion since it devours soul to grow

is it the opposite of while lady root ?

[uncut holly]

So White Lady is obsessed with Birth. Greyroot spins this, they are obsessed with Rebirth where they parasitize someone and burst out of them absorbing their power and growing stronger. Thats just what Greyroot does we dont know if White Lady did that at all. But we do know that White Lady placed bindings on herself to stop herself from "breeding" 🤮

[wicked comet]

pale king didnt get rootified

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is like the opposite to White Lady but we know in game they forcefully stop Hornet from entering to Void when they are inside of them so they probably arent Void.

[wicked comet]

so its more like a parasitic plant?

[uncut holly]

Yeah its a twist on White Ladys thing

[limpid summit]

Greyroot is a parasite but she might also be a “Root” like what we can assume WL is

[wicked comet]

twist nice one 🤣

[uncut holly]

The parrellels seem deliberate, they do look pretty similar.

We know that Greyroot is a Root like White Lady is a Root, are they the same type of root we dont know.

[lavish tangle]

And widow and herra also look similar

[uncut holly]

We do know that Greyroot is powerful as hell

[flat hearth]

Roots be hella strong in HK universe

[bright crest]

I for sure wouldn't confuse two similar looking things for being the same thing. They both are plant like and appear to wish to spread. One seems parasitic, the other seems fairly benevolent.

I definitely wouldn't think of the root lady as a higher being like the pale lady. They seem to be quite different in that regard. If anything the pale lady is to the grey one what the radiance is to the moth tribe. Same same but different

[uncut holly]

The only weakness Greyroot has is it seems they arent as strong when in their parasite form as they would be normally

[lavish tangle]

Also that the witch turns to stone

[wicked comet]

so one thing for sure is that lifeblood is something that ( likely isnt affected by void) and has a horrible image in mind it want to turn the world into its considered forbidden in every land ( likely a ancient enemy like the void ) and is parasitic but give syou the illution of making you stronger so you take more

[blissful knoll]

How do you trigger this?

[karmic tartan]

Wait they do what?

[uncut holly]

Get Greyroot infection in Act 3 and go to the Abyss.

[blissful knoll]

Ah makes sense

[bright crest]

That would have been a funny ending

[uncut holly]

Greyroot uses its sway over Hornet to stop them from jumping into the Abyss and so you have to get it removed before going into the Abyss.

[blissful knoll]

I was actually thinking about cursed and fighting lost lace but good to know

[uncut holly]

So you cant fight Lost Lace with Greyroot.

[tame estuary]

HI

[karmic tartan]

If it was just illusions it wouldn't be able to give the Knight (can't be infected by a mind virus so probably can't be influenced by illusions) lifeblood masks?

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is freaking out trying to stop you from jumping in there, because its probably terrified of doing it and it just wants to parasitize you and doesnt give a damn about the kingdom.

[wicked comet]

it was likely a force allied with the void since we can see that the main place in inside the abyss in HK and hornet which isnt made of void gets her heart changed into it

[blissful knoll]

It seems more like temporary strength moreso than illusionary no?

hornet notes as much iirc that little intake makes you vitalized or something but too much = gg

[wicked comet]

although it is possible it also cant control the knight and hornet since they are both pale being children since the only other bug to use it is controlled and become a boss

[lavish tangle]

Less illusionary more like crack, you become faster but also addicted to it so you take more until at some point you take too much then ggs

[wicked comet]

I sense the forbidden blood coursing through you, that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image from eva we know it intend to reshape the world into its own image and we can also see in godhome that it is still very much worshiped but its door is only unlocked when every p is done?

[bright crest]

It's some kind of parasite that's for certain.

[uncut holly]

NOOOOOOOO I just learned that in Act 3 Loam is killed by falling debri!

[wicked comet]

is it a anctient friend of the void that only come when the void is winning?

it that why its main base is at the abyss in HK

[vivid kernel]

So what exactly is the phantom?

[tropic arrow]

@uncut holly when do you put Lace in the timeline?

[lavish tangle]

More like enhancing drugs and it just so happens that void is the strongest and most able to use it effectively

[wicked comet]

personally a silk child not loved

[vivid kernel]

I feel like this thing has implications that are big

[lavish tangle]

Lace but unloved because bald

[wicked comet]

I dont think its just a void since it has a its own god we can see in godhome

[vivid kernel]

Like the wraiths are extensions of the phantom right

[lavish tangle]

It isn’t void it’s like living drugs

[vivid kernel]

Is any bald person loved

[bright crest]

Have we really seen any evidence it is sentient? The lifeblood parasite? It could just be what we see. A plant that entices bugs to ingest, messing up everything as it spreads

[vivid kernel]

Are wraiths partially soul?

[lavish tangle]

Do you get soul/silk when you hit them?

[vivid kernel]

I mean there is no soul in SS

silk yes

[lavish tangle]

Hornets silk is made from soul

[vivid kernel]

Oh lol

Was about to say hornet has no soul so she is a ginger

[lavish tangle]

lol

[wicked comet]

so the void has a very old ally that fights with him and infects bugs from the inside but bugs and specially normals one wouldnt call it forbidden unless something happened something so horrible that it got called forbidden and thought to every kind and every kingdom ( like by pale being)

[tropic arrow]

they seem to be projected by her

[uncut holly]

Yes Lace is at the GMS Reign part of the timeline along with her sister Phantom. Phantom was made before Lace and was the prototype, there wasnt actually anything wrong with her just that she wasnt as "loyal" to GMS as Lace was.

Lace herself is pretty weird, she states that she isnt really alive this is because Lace is just a silk construct who was been weaved to act like a child. They arent a real child they are just Silk that has been coded to act like one, because GMS is crazy. Phantom was likely discarded out of pure preference by GMS, while Lace is unreasonably favored by her.

[bright crest]

Silk and soul are bound. It's made from soul, or is imbued with soul. Either way it contains soul

[wicked comet]

more like silk infused with soul

[tropic arrow]

I do not think they are that old

[lavish tangle]

Someone overdosed, it’s the same reason we see cocaine as “forbidden”/illegal

[vivid kernel]

I’m probably looking too much into game design but no other being can do this right

[uncut holly]

We know that Phantom predates the Citadel, and that Lace met with Phantom in the Exhaust Organ

[viscid panther]

might i ask how do you know all that. i haven't beaten act 3 yet, so i may yet discover it

[uncut holly]

They probably are that old

[tropic arrow]

..Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking...
...From our Silk... A child born loyal...
All of this suggests that Lace, and Phantom, were made while Grand Mother Silk was sleeping, and are made after the Weavers' betrayal (a child born loyal)

[wicked comet]

"I sense the forbidden blood coursing through you, that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image" if it was that simple I would think eva would have said this

[tropic arrow]

I put them way later in the timeline

[lavish tangle]

Living coke with purpose of reproduction sounds about right for that description

[wicked comet]

it does have its own god

[karmic tartan]

Sorry I'm back

[uncut holly]

So inbetween Bile Water and Sinners Road there is this biome that doesnt show up on the map called The Mist. The Mist is a procedurally generated biome, that you can only get through by finding Silk Flies and playing music to them for them to show you the direction to go, it is kind of like a Zelda Lost Woods area. Once you get to the end you will find the Exhaust Organ, which has Phantom, Laces sister. Phantom wants to fight you to the death because they are fading due to lack of silk and are slowly dying, they want to go out like this rather than slowly.

[lavish tangle]

As do most living things in this universe, afaik only the basic bugs don’t have a specific creator god

[wicked comet]

can we talk about the mist what is that? who created it? I do think the annoying mobs there are silk spun mad with a will and soul

[uncut holly]

Hmmmmmmm maybe. I do think that Phantom was discarded for the reason stated though, their code just didnt satisfy GMS, so they made Lace. We know through Needolin that Phantom was discarded and Forgotten, then she was forced to vent the Citadels steam exhaust via an organ.

[tropic arrow]

I agree with that, I am just talking about the timeline of their creation

[lavish tangle]

Also the “main base” in the abyss probably was because so many things died there and so little things are around to eat it that life blood managed to setup a colony for itself, as for the door I have no idea how that got there or who made it

[uncut holly]

The Mist was made by Phantom as a by product of their venting of the Citadels exhaust, its not clear how exactly Phantom did it and made the Wraiths. But they seem to be the cause of the strange phenomena possibly accidentally.

[tropic arrow]

It has to be after Weavers' betrayal

[uncut holly]

You know First Sinner has alot of fight for being compressed in a tiny space and weakened for thousands upon thousands of years. Imagine them in their Prime.

[karmic tartan]

Sorry I haven't gotten to act 3 yet what's the main base?

[limber anvil]

Interesting.... Also the bay didn't exist on this map it seems... And the blasted steps seem to have replaced the coral gorgr

[sleek lily]

So in the game you can find all four chorus, do we know about the first sentinel?

[uncut holly]

Hint hint Team Cherry please give us the Pure Vessel treatment with First Sinner

[lavish tangle]

Hollow knight abyss not silksong

[uncut holly]

Oh and tell us her name is Atla dammit.

We dont actually know that

[karmic tartan]

Oh this is ss-discussion so I got confused

[lavish tangle]

We are discussing lifeblood in both games my b

[karmic tartan]

I mean we know Atla was the weaver of time via artifacts

[uncut holly]

Im not really sure the specifics on Weaver deification. We do know that First Sinner is apparently the first though

[bright crest]

She perfectly confirms the recurring message that weavers are terrifyingly powerful.

Makes you wonder what happened to them.

From what I understand some of if not most of the ones in Hallownest decided to go back home? Yet they don't appear to have made it. Considering their strength I can't imagine what could have stopped them

[viscid panther]

yeah that i got by myself. i fought her

[sleek lily]

Any info on Old Penitent? I like him

[wicked comet]

I just read all mask maker entry and MAN he has a lot of INFO

[uncut holly]

Well it could be that First Sinner specifically is really really powerful, in the journal entry Hornet elludes to the fact that she pioneered all of the Silk Magic that is used

[viscid panther]

i wish we got PHANTOM. so far my favorite boss. but i guess Carmelita will be the best one in the game. haven't fought her yet tho

[uncut holly]

I mean you can still fight Phantom

They dont get locked off at any point

[wicked comet]

she took me 50 tries until I lost count

[sleek lily]

Phantom and Lace dual fight

Silk Sisters

[karmic tartan]

I like how he calls you old one compared to most other characters "child"

[sleek lily]

We need an Eva fight

[viscid panther]

i first tried her. i was endgame tho

[wicked comet]

not just him snail shamans too I think they do that as a title for your kind ( pale being)

[bright crest]

She might have been the first, that doesn't necessarily make her especially powerful. Her siblings would have had the time and opportunity to build upon her work

[wicked comet]

first tried aint no way

[uncut holly]

So progression wise if you want to get to Act 2 you have two choices. Either go to normal route and fight the Last Judge, or go the Sinners Road route, go to The Mist and fight Phantom in the Exhaust Organ. It is much quicker so speedrunners like going the Phantom Route.

[limber anvil]

Phantom is easy compated to lace 2 let alone lace 3

[karmic tartan]

Actually seems fun

[wicked comet]

I was talking about ant queen

[sleek lily]

Phantom fight is amazing early game

[wicked comet]

eva cant survive outside her iron shell she calls it so prbably no

[viscid panther]

ohhh i see. good thing for you. i'm curious how it's gonna go for me

[sleek lily]

Godseekers magic

[limber anvil]

Fair.

Still she is a bit slow...

[uncut holly]

Yeah I fought Phantom early game in the run im doing, I beat Last Judge then went and beat Phantom. Phantom fight is really good if you are going in pre Act 2, it also works Act 2 but you are alot more powered.

[wicked comet]

mhm

[tropic arrow]

give it to us with Grand Mother Silk. We almost definetly don't fight her at full power. Either she is still eepy while fighting us (Lace and Phantom show she is capable of complex thought and action even in her slumber), or she woke up from her long nap and isn't in her full might.

[lavish tangle]

Also we are not getting “dream” fights because the needolin does memories

[tropic arrow]

Give me...

Absolute Grand Mother Silk

[uncut holly]

Phantom is around Last Judge level difficult but smaller but only deals 1 mask of damage.

[limber anvil]

Give me absolute lost lace

[viscid panther]

carmelita ftw

[sleek lily]

I recently replayed the game twice, Last Judge is way harder than Phantom.

[lavish tangle]

Found lace

[sleek lily]

Way more punishing

[wicked comet]

first sinner was a easy but fast paced fight honestly like a better GMS

[limber anvil]

Cursed child ending is easier than lost lace change my mind

[viscid panther]

no way lol. last judge is piss easy and i stand by my point

[timber pond]

Absolute Silk be like: Dress

[uncut holly]

Last Judge is tough because they do 2 damage, but i find the bigger enemy easier

[wicked comet]

that is while and gold

[viscid panther]

GMS is easy. with nail upgrades even no heal is fine

[limber anvil]

What color is this supposed yo be again?

[lavish tangle]

Blue + black

[tropic arrow]

Again, something about the thought that Grand Mother Silk is in some sort of lucid sleep while fighting Hornet is just funny to me

[karmic tartan]

Make it like sandbag from that fighting game

[timber pond]

Its absolute silk guys

[wicked comet]

I tried I never saw it that way

[timber pond]

Aka Dress

[limber anvil]

Nail 2 GMs with curse is only fairly hard

[sleek lily]

The thing is Last Judge has 3 attacks, Phantom has around 5-6. So when you get to know both movesets properly Last Judge is way harder because of double damage

[limber anvil]

Lost lace is harder with nail 4...

[karmic tartan]

Black and blue hello?

[lavish tangle]

Which lines are meant to be white, the thick ones near the middle?

[viscid panther]

well you contradict yourself. if you DO know the movesets - you don't take damage. 1 or 2 or 10 mask damage, doesn't matter.

[runic musk]

Personally I find Phantom easier than Last Judge

[karmic tartan]

Last judge does not have 3 attacks

[wicked comet]

shoulders are white the decorations gold

[sleek lily]

Jump, spin, throw, run. 4?

[lavish tangle]

For me shoulders blue decorations black

[tropic arrow]

Hornet: is fighting Grand Mother Silk

Grand Mother Silk: bidibidibidibidibidi

[runic musk]

Also Last Judge has 4 yea

Gaining one when she ignites the bell thing

[wicked comet]

GMS was a too easy of a fight

[karmic tartan]

Jump, jump slam, throw, spin, run, and the big spin

When last judge is at like 30% they do the fire spin like 5 times

[sleek lily]

Jump is not an attack, big spin is just an scripted one time thing

[wicked comet]

I found lost lace slower that lace 2 cuz arena was wide

[runic musk]

3 waves I believe

[karmic tartan]

Then why can you get hit by them

[limber anvil]

Oh people think this dress is black and blue or white and yellow... For me its not either...

[timber pond]

Would be Funni for absolute GMS to have a desgin change where she is wearing a Dress. Unlikely we would get that though, It would be farm more likely we get sparing withlittle bro S Shadelord 😂

[wicked comet]

with lace 2 I felt trapped with a machine gun

[karmic tartan]

Why would the jump target you if it's not an attack

[sleek lily]

Contact damage magic ✨

[lavish tangle]

Contact damage is not an attack

[karmic tartan]

And even if it's a scripted one time thing it's still purposed as an attack

[wicked comet]

I still died like 40 time to lost lace

[lavish tangle]

What is it to you

[runic musk]

Contacts damage's not an attack and jumping is less of an attack more so its to help the boss reposition without just sliding across the floor

[lavish tangle]

It’s just fire spin twice

[sleek lily]

Weirdly enough Phantom also has an scripted spam attack

[karmic tartan]

an aggressive and violent action against a person or place.

[karmic tartan]

It's 4 times

[limber anvil]

Its very desaturated light blue that almost looks yellow and the with dark yellow and grey... No white but it feels very faded

[lavish tangle]

Game definition please

[runic musk]

Thats used to transition into phase 2 yea where she can use the smoke to 'teleport'

[karmic tartan]

There is no game defintion

[uncut holly]

Sadly I dont think they really plan on doing Godhome again, if they do rematches it definitely wont be Godhome. They seem to do deliberate stuff like letting you fight good combatant NPC's. Like Shakra, Garmond 2 times, and Pinstress.

[karmic tartan]

Attack is attack

[wicked comet]

for phantom I think just staying in the sky and walls most of the time and punishing when she makes a mistake

[lavish tangle]

Game dev* definition (how they are programmed)

[sleek lily]

Anyone else struggled with Phantom because the fight triggered muscle memory from Hornet in a bad way?

[runic musk]

No

[limber anvil]

That's my answer

[uncut holly]

There are a few other beings that would probably wipe the floor with us if we fought them, like Fayforn probably would destroy us. And Greyroot might be too powerful for us to even fight.

[karmic tartan]

Attack is attack, no matter what's it in

In game development there isn't a designated definitin

[viral dock]

Chat, is there a way to roll back a save to before I got cursed?

[runic musk]

Yes

[lavish tangle]

So GMS falling when you stun her is an attack?

[sleek lily]

Hornet threw her needle and then it came back, Phantom throws and launches towards it. It's like an antithesis.

[timber pond]

It would for sure be memory fights. But by that logic, it kind of implies that it would be a thing you do after you beat the game TBH. The way they structured this game makes it a little difficult to retroactively add content unless its Post-game.

[runic musk]

On the save below it has a rewind symbol.

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[lavish tangle]

There is a list of attacks, everything in that list is an attack, that is the definition

[karmic tartan]

I find sister splinter falling as a supirise attack

[wicked comet]

I do think the next dlc is gonna be iron creatures

[karmic tartan]

Is there? Show me the list

[wicked comet]

they were shown previously the iron creatures

[viral dock]

But if I press the one that says "cursed" on it, will it be right before that?

[sleek lily]

Steel Assasins looking for their weaver?

[viral dock]

Or after I get cursed?

[karmic tartan]

Wait you can rewind saves?

[wicked comet]

I think so maybe

[lavish tangle]

Every enemy has one I am assuming, that’s how I would program it. I do not have a unity decompiler

[timber pond]

It will be one of them. But a "memory Fight" DLC is very much also a possibility. There is an entire Cut sprite Sheet for A Vespa boss fight. and a DLC based on the memory mechanic is definitely something i thin kthey would do.

[sleek lily]

I had to rewind because of the bugged Bell Eater fight

[runic musk]

I dunno, worth tryin though. It wont erase every save state beyond it if you're worried about that.

[void smelt]

Why is Hornet Mad at them?

[uncut holly]

THEYRE SNAILS!

[sleek lily]

They can't be trusted

[uncut holly]

Thats why

[wicked comet]

I think memory dlc would be last one when all bosses that are every gonna get added are done like in HK

[viral dock]

It won't? Thank you, that was what stopped me from trying

[wicked comet]

cuz they are snails I hate them silly little slugs

[karmic tartan]

Oh you're assuming. I have the silksong sprites files all character sprites are just on one big sprite sheet with the exception of clover Dancers for some absurd reason anyways https://mega.nz/folder/nu5GjLxD#JB92f7G2YKa1ms9i6erftw proof

[uncut holly]

Theyre mad because they hid their Snail Shaman heritage from them, and didnt inform them of the plan

[timber pond]

No steel assassins looking for hornet and executing Pharloom because they are all collectively responsible for summoning void lmao.😂 (if we go by the context the steel soul Wish lays out)

[limber anvil]

The optical illusion didn't work for me... Same for the duck of rabbit... Its a rabbit head with a duck beak instead of ears

[viral dock]

There is no way to load a save that isn't in those options?

[lavish tangle]

Obv the sprites are together I am taking about the behaviour scripts

[wicked comet]

nah tbh cuz they didnt tell her that they were going to summon THE VOID and cause pharloom near collapse and leave all responsibility at her

[strange gale]

BLESS YOU FOR THESE SPRITES

[timber pond]

The wretched snail

[lavish tangle]

She knew they were shamans but not what the plan was

[sleek lily]

To be fair it's all because of Lace

[lavish tangle]

No the Tao was gonna do that regardless it feels like

[sleek lily]

By the way I didn't fucking know that the Snare was a red tool

[wicked comet]

she had a hunch but didnt act on it

[sleek lily]

What? Tao?

[wicked comet]

lace saved her so yeah

[lavish tangle]

Trap*

[limpid summit]

Kratt’s highest number in any Flea game is lower than any other flea’s lowest number

[lavish tangle]

Idk man autocorrect plus swipe to type

[sleek lily]

Yeah but it also made GMS resist the Void and pollute Pharloom with her silk covered in void

[void smelt]

Are they part of the void?

[lavish tangle]

No they worship it

[wicked comet]

also snails shaman used to kill pilgrim to collect their souls for spells that is mostly why they are hated right since they are killers small question where did they get the great souls from then?

[lavish tangle]

Boss like enemies maybe?

[timber pond]

I don't think so really. I think they just know about it and can utilize it . at least these guys.

[wicked comet]

not sure they worship it but they do experiment with it

[vast agate]

is there any canonical link between trobbio and the grimm troupe

[lavish tangle]

Oh I thought they were the void worshippers

[timber pond]

Like all they do is make a portal with thier power ad use a trap

[strange gale]

I love the Fayforn so so much it's driving me insane i see no talk of them online, specially cos I came back to the peak and the tuning fork used to summon them is gone??? Like someone broke it? Or was it when the Fayforn landed? Did they want to break it? Didnt want to be summoned ever again? But they were so nice... they were purring

[uncut holly]

That is a subject of heavy debate even in the original game. They are a lineage of wide spread snail people who have ancestral lineage and study Soul magic and Void magic, particularly combining the two.

[lavish tangle]

No but it feels like there should be

[wicked comet]

I also thought that but apparently not enough proof

[timber pond]

The steel Heart (steel soul NPCS) seem more like that

[sleek lily]

The snails aren't evil at all, they just mess with void knowing it's dangerous. However, the Snare trap thing should have worked if not for Lace sacrificing herself to save Hornet.

[vast agate]

hopefully it will be fleshed out in the future bc there’s gotta be something there

[wicked comet]

nah they do kill pilgrims to collect souls

[wicked comet]

SHAMAN_STONE_CHAPEL">Anguished Aura<br>Eight masks hard, swirled soul enraged.<br>Twelve aknids flat, all juices strained.[NPC]:Six pilgrims living, hung long to drain.</entry>

[uncut holly]

When do they ever do that?

[sleek lily]

Eh, maybe not evil towards Hornet .

[lavish tangle]

Also implies that the soul liquid can just be like, drank out of you

[vast agate]

they worship the abyss of all-consuming darkness with no will of its own bro that’s gotta be evil in some way

[uncut holly]

Groal AKA the Swamp People did that not the Snail Shamans

[timber pond]

Its an acient tablet in thre teemple

[uncut holly]

Oh...

[karmic tartan]

Hornet knew they were snails

[wicked comet]

maybe used in a something for spells

[lavish tangle]

There are 2 more ancient tablets in there

[karmic tartan]

It's mentioned in dialogue way before the red memory scene

[sleek lily]

Does she? She knew they were in disguise.

[lavish tangle]

Yeah but like I thought it with be more ethereal and less like blood ig

[vast agate]

Hornet isn’t racist though so she didn’t assume they were evil #notallsnails

[timber pond]

The snails seem to practice occult of all sorts.

[karmic tartan]

She hints at snail shamans quite specifically

[wicked comet]

message on top of you . also its also clear from all the corpse around snail shaman in original HK and this tablet text in ruined chappel

[void smelt]

Why are we trying to defeat GMS? (And Also, why she looked for us)

[sinful nimbus]

She's the source of the haunting

[void smelt]

and why is the haunting bad?

[wicked comet]

snails all suck #snailsslugsallthesame

[sinful nimbus]

Well it enslaves the bugs who fall victim to it and drives them mad

[uncut holly]

Thats alot darker than i thought they where. it makes sense

[sleek lily]

It's literal possession

[lavish tangle]

Radiance but silk

[void smelt]

And why is the GMS doind that? TO have control and power?

[uncut holly]

The Haunting is the Silk Thread that mind controls the various enemies in the game

[timber pond]

She needs hornet to regenerate silk herself (hornet has this power grandma does not), to keep herself going. But shes done this to many partial weavers.

[void smelt]

Makes sense

[uncut holly]

It takes away their free will

[limber anvil]

Cut ending implys she was going to try and absorb us

[sinful nimbus]

Yes and it also allows her to gather more silk to sustain her daughter

[wicked comet]

also doesnt let them die so they work forever no rest no food needed

[lavish tangle]

WOAH WOAH WOAH slugs are cool and nice and nothing like snails

[bright crest]

1, GMS has beef with hornet, and hornet knows leaving won't be a permanent solution.
2, clearly the land is in deep trouble, and it's a 2 in 1

[wicked comet]

... bilewater...

[limber anvil]

Those Are not slugs

[lavish tangle]

Those are not slugs my friend

[sleek lily]

What I don't get yet is why Pharloom is a dying kingdom

[wicked comet]

what are they worms? maggots?

[uncut holly]

Grand Mother Silk AKA the Source of all Silk is mind controlling them when a strand of Silk touches them. Grand Mother Silk has this thing where they believe because their a god like being they have the right to shape the world and dictate every being in it. And all the lower beings are wrong for wanting to go against them.

[limber anvil]

Maggots

[void smelt]

Lace?

[lavish tangle]

Yes

[timber pond]

Well, The Citadel seems to have fucked 2/3 Environments by just existing💀

[uncut holly]

Silk is also Soul. Soul is made into Silk thats why Hornet gets Silk from enemies

[limber anvil]

Also insane silk can be used for immortality

[silk dirge]

not really

[wicked comet]

no more silk produced ruler ( god is asleep) everything is not moving anymore no movement most bugs are ded and just moving cuz they are haunted

[silk dirge]

this is the same exact shit the soul sanctum tried to do

[limber anvil]

Whiteward...

[lavish tangle]

Hornet’s silk is soul based, not all silk

[silk dirge]

which has a lot of parallels to the soul sanctum

[lavish tangle]

White ward

[sinful nimbus]

Well it does work

[timber pond]

Pharloom: Soul sanctum but what if it was everyone. 💀

[silk dirge]

i mean im not disagreeing

im just saying its not an insane thing

[sinful nimbus]

Soul Sanctum is inconsistent yes but there's no controlling TC's bad writing

[silk dirge]

bc weve seen a very similar interaction

[limber anvil]

They extended their lives using silk which is what made them so vulnerable to the haunting as it was genetically passed down through infested shells

[wicked comet]

I am happy pharmloon is dead tbh its a capitalist horrible kingdom unforgiving to the homeless I dont like to get into politics but this wouldnt be the case if it was the pale king

[uncut holly]

Its not 100% confirmed or entirely visioned out, but its possible because Silk is Soul and you turn Soul into Silk. That lives might also be given to maintain Lace.

[sleek lily]

So the citadel used to be perfectly working but filled with zombies, now GMS is asleep because she's getting weaker and it's fucked?

[lethal burrow]

For what it's worth hornet says the "the pale one up above" was the one who came in at the green Princess Kingdom.

[uncut holly]

Lace is also very odd because Lace isnt really a living being. They are a Silk Construct that has been weaved to act like a child. They arent a real living being and they themself dont think their alive. But Hornet does think their alive and begs to differ.

[wicked comet]

yeAh last judge was made to be impossible to let anyone enter on purpose that is why the only other entry point is sinners road cuz they sinned and were not judged

[lavish tangle]

Insert 20 rosaries to hear an automated prayer

[void smelt]

So basically, as she is weak, she need Hornet for the silk?

[uncut holly]

So Lace is a Silk Construct that has just been coded to act like a Child. After the Weavers betrayed Grand Mother Silk originally.

[timber pond]

Well it seems there was a time that the weavers themselves sealed GMS away, and after the weavers left, GMS repossesed the kingdom with the haunting to cause all the things that happen in game.

[sleek lily]

But why make the peregrination impossible?

[lethal burrow]

I could say you're not really alive but just a meat and bones and blood construct. How would you feel about that?

[wicked comet]

I destroyed that thing used 10 bombs

[limber anvil]

Ending B which was cut implies that GMs uses hornets body

[wicked comet]

no idea ask GMS

[karmic tartan]

Pharloom was never perfectly working, it was barely wobbling by

[uncut holly]

Basically yeah something about the Silk ability that we havent nailed down GMS cant maintain Lace herself.

[void smelt]

Why the GSM made Lace?

[wicked comet]

I am telling you pale king would have done a way better job #paleking2026

[lavish tangle]

Why does lace attack her arm though

[limber anvil]

Wanted a child obsessivly

[sleek lily]

Also where the fuck do peregrines come from???? They just spawn in Bonebottom?

[lethal burrow]

She treated the Weavers as her children, but that didn't really work so instead of ascending something else she just made her own thing

[lavish tangle]

She wanted a kid

[uncut holly]

Also Lace isnt the only one of GMS's kids, theres also Phantom. Phantom is Laces older Sister and the Prototype. There wasnt anything wrong with Phantom but GMS just didnt like Phantom because of how they where and acted, they just didnt like how they where coded so they discarded them. They also unreasonably favor Lace.

[karmic tartan]

Hell yeah Hallownest patriotism #lastandeternalkingdom

[timber pond]

Because she sad the weavers betrayed her and she cant have a family i guess

[silk dirge]

city of steel patriots where you at

[timber pond]

Greek god type stuff

[lethal burrow]

I thought Phantom was created by lace

[uncut holly]

No Phantom is Laces older sister

[void smelt]

And she needed us for our ability? She wanted to absorb us so she can generate silk?

[karmic tartan]

Where was that even mentioned I haven't seen that yet

[cloud crater]

So like, is there any reason the bell beast had a silk heart?
(And what even are silk hearts)

[uncut holly]

GMS made Phantom

[tropic arrow]

yeah. I never said otherwise.

[silk dirge]

sign in the cradle

[timber pond]

About to have an army march on pharloom thats what lul

[tropic arrow]

Dunno, but Grand Mother Silk speaks every time we pick one up

[lethal burrow]

Why do we think this besides Phantom being made of silk

[tropic arrow]

She always uses "our" when referring to herself, which I find mildly interesting

[tropic arrow]

Hunter's journal entry explicitly says she was made from silk

[void smelt]

???

[karmic tartan]

I mean it looks like widow or gms purposefully strung up bell beast considering how heavily they were bound, probably didn't want people being able to bell beast out of the kingdom to escape her

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, I just said that

[wicked comet]

from the surface destroyed kingdom . kingdoms with abandonned gods ( god of rain and strom in HK with godhome) even hallownest though not sure since mask maker said this "The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.[NPC]:Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?" I thought he was speaking of hallownest since he know she is not from pharloom

[limber anvil]

Basically she saw the weavers as her children but was a crap mother so they saw her as lying... Leading to her forced slumber created phantom then lace

[uncut holly]

From what we gathered theres something about Weavers silk that GMS cant do anymore. Tbh im not sure the specifics but thats the core of it yeah. They need Weavers to maintain Lace, they might actually kill Weavers to maintain Lace because alot of Weavers where killed by GMS.

[cloud crater]

Perhaps

[tropic arrow]

Hornet's divine heritage may also be a part of things

[timber pond]

Yes because hornet is the daughter of a weaver AND a pale being so she can do that

[uncut holly]

I havent fully figured it out but the correlation is there yes, that is why. The specifics of how the Silk works is weird.

[tropic arrow]

Also, are we sure the Weavers are needed to maintain Lace specifically?

[wicked comet]

they created a trap and trapped her in sleep and left

[lavish tangle]

Theory: when the weavers sealed GMS away they took her ability to make silk away from her and scattered it, that’s what the silk hearts are
GMS must have been able to make her own silk at some point as she ascended the weavers using silk

[limber anvil]

Yup

[void smelt]

So basically all of this mess is to mantain LACE?

[tropic arrow]

I figured she was hunting Weavers down for their silk, yes, but also for revenge and maybe for herself. Surely Grand Mother Silk is looking for a way to wake up from the slumber she was put in

[lethal burrow]

what's with the needolin vision of lace looking at Phantom being inside some sort of test tube or whatever

[tropic arrow]

She is called Grand Mother for a reason

[cloud crater]

Grand mother silk gifting a silk heart to lace to sustain herself, and to the surgeons so that they may conduct their experiments:

Grand mother silk giving the bell beast a silk heart it cannot handle, creating its own tangle of bindings: haha fuck this one in particular

[wicked comet]

the kingdom was ALMOST destroyed in act 3 not because GMS was dying to the void but because she wanted to protect lace!

[sleek lily]

At first I thought she wanted Hornet as a daughter, because Lace wasn't real after all

[void smelt]

Lace is made out of pure Silk?

[silver spire]

yeppers

[timber pond]

yea partiality probably like 3/4ths of the reason.

[limber anvil]

Where is more phantom lore? Only needelin and hunters journel?

[karmic tartan]

Why are y'all saying grandmother = grand mother

[tropic arrow]

Lace herself seemingly realizes this isn't the case, as she says in act 3 "I denied my mother your silken strength", so Hornet really does seem to be brought for her silk, and not to be her child

[karmic tartan]

I always took grand in the sense you'd take grand judge, just a higher status of that thing

[tropic arrow]

Grandmother is different from Grand Mother

[sleek lily]

Lost Lace fight takes place inside GMS's protective cocoon

[tropic arrow]

That's my point

[wicked comet]

a abandonned child ? a mistake ? the non-favorite child

[timber pond]

Failed Lace

[lavish tangle]

Two words, she is a mother who is grand not a grandma

[tropic arrow]

She is Grand Mother, names are important

[sleek lily]

I see

[karmic tartan]

Yeah so many people think it's grandmother and it's annoying

[silver spire]

the question is, is it a mother of silk that is grand, or a grandmother of silk xd

[lavish tangle]

Also her name is literally silk

[wicked comet]

GMS is a BAD moTher she ignore ALLLLLLl her other children and only focus on the youngest her favorite

[uncut holly]

Im not sure but it seems it. We know that both Lace and Phantom are considered extremely costly to maintain.

Its not all the maintain Lace, in the beginning it was because GMS came to Pharloom and tried to control everything playing god believing themself a god who has right to decide the world. And curb stomping every other race and tribe around. Then the Weavers put her to sleep with the Citadels song, they hypnotized Pilgrims from the Wasteland outside to come and work in the Citadel to keep a constant enternal music to keep GMS asleep. Eventually the Weavers where rebelled against and then the events of the White Ward happened where mortal bugs where putting Silk in themself to extend their life span. Them implanting Silk to extend peoples age continued for a long time and eventually GMS gained control and the music stopped.

[sleek lily]

We need Grand Father Song

[limber anvil]

My personal guess is that it wasn't just personality but closer yo the second dentinal instead of lace

[silver spire]

also lost lace is SO HARD

like i got to phase 2 and immediately got cooked

[sleek lily]

Grand Parents Silk & Song

[lethal burrow]

definitely the hardest boss in the game

[tropic arrow]

Weavers seem to have willingly passed down their rule rather than being ousted by force

[silver spire]

is there a charm or tool that makes ur needle longer?

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers ran from their old home

[tropic arrow]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[sleek lily]

Yes

[silver spire]

cuz i jstu got into using wanderer's crest from reaper's crest, and its so short

[silver spire]

w h e r e

[uncut holly]

Im not too sure about how the Conductors took charge after the Weavers

[wicked comet]

try to not get too close she is vulnerable during her summon the void attack otherwise I like to have a good distance also #sk-help-2

[sleek lily]

I can't remember, let me take a look

[tropic arrow]

Again, never said otherwise. I am saying that the Conductors did not Coup D'etat the weavers

[lavish tangle]

Food task (not the pale oil one) in putrid waters

[tropic arrow]

This suggests they passed down their rule willingly

[silver spire]

oh.......

i hate that place

[teal finch]

yeah everything in the citadel seems to be part of the weavers grand design before the pilgrims messed w silk to extend their lifespan

[silver spire]

WELP, time to go back to sh**water

[teal finch]

thats what i gathered from mask maker dialogue at least

[wicked comet]

they intented on mixing bloodines with weaver blood to kill GMS from the start

[sleek lily]

This is huntress quest?

[lavish tangle]

“Your mask is not of these lands, not yet”
What did he mean yet

[silver spire]

werent pilgrims forcefully injected with silk in order to make them work longer

[uncut holly]

Tbh the lore and a complete timeline is still being formulated. We know some things but I specifically dont know the specifics on how maintaining Lace works other t han that its extremely costly they require tons of Silk constantly and because of that they are very fragile. The sake GMS wants Hornet and weavers is likely to maintain Lace. Its possible that Lace was made by GMS after her first "Children" with heavy air quotes betrayed her.

[silver spire]

thats what i got from whiteward

[karmic tartan]

Day 1 Maskmaker fan yall been sleeping

[uncut holly]

Pilgrims where used as lab rats, but the end goal was to make bugs live incredibly long.

[teal finch]

this is probably what happened but i think that caused them to be susceptible to gms' influence

[void smelt]

Ok to Summary, we were taken to Pharloom by GMS because our ability to make silk (thing weavers also can do). She needed that ability to maintain lace alive because she is made out for silk. Gms came to pharloom because she wanted power, she considered herself GOD. When the events of White Ward Happened, the GMS took the chance of the silk to control pharloom and gain power again?

[uncut holly]

Yeah, many many years of life prolonging made them vulnerable to GMS because of the Silk in them. Then the music just stopped.

[uncut holly]

Yeah basically.

There is also stuff with the Weavers they werent good people

[silver spire]

yea thats literally stated by hornet in their convo

[tropic arrow]

I am still not sure if she kept hunting the Weavers for silk for lace specifically

she made Lace, she very well should be capable of maintaining her herself

[uncut holly]

Weavers have a like parent like child type thing where the apple didnt fall far from the tree.

[wicked comet]

no ruler in pharloom was good they all sucked

[uncut holly]

The Weavers once GMS was contained deified themselves with their shrines and styled themselves as gods

[wicked comet]

except ant queen she was chill

[tropic arrow]

Let's put it this way: Weavers seem to be responsible for the underworks

So actually

[silver spire]

well.... i think GMS was the creator of the weavers, but eventually they lulled GMS to sleep using song, and the haunting is like a byproduct of her desperately trying to wake up

[void smelt]

Wait, the Weavers already existed before GMS came to Pharloom?

[wicked comet]

really?

[tropic arrow]

we probably should be blaming the Weavers for the pay to use benches, and not GMS

[tropic arrow]

no. GMS uplifted them from the Pharlids in Pharloom

[wicked comet]

not the creator maybe raised them like white lady raised hornet but not created

[uncut holly]

Weavers are responsible for all of the horrors in the Citadel of Song, and the extermination of many other rival factions. The ones who lasted the best against them was the Crabs, they had a war. But at some point something happened that we dont know and their entire Coral Caves dried up and became Blasted Steps and the Sands of Karak biome.

[teal finch]

yeah i dont think most people have grasped that the citadel and thus the entire pilgrimage system is a weaver invention

[vast agate]

this might be a dumb question but were the weavers hunted down by the citadel? How did they all die out with how powerful and advanced they seemed to be

[silver spire]

no GMS and weavers seem to have a radiance-moth type relationship

[limber anvil]

Well lace is asking phantom why us... Why were we designed to fail and fade

[tropic arrow]

That said, the land was probably not called "Pharloom" before GMS, as Weavers are called the "first children of Pharloom", so that name was probably given either by GMS or by the Weavers

[uncut holly]

The Crabs where the Citadels equal

[void smelt]

ok, The Weavers thought they must be God and that's why they locked up the GMS.?

[limber anvil]

GMS is a terrible mother

[teal finch]

to put it in general terms they didnt want to serve gms anymore

[tropic arrow]

The Weavers, namely First Sinner, discovered that they came not from Grand Mother Silk, but were uplifted. They were not her "holy children", as she said. Seemingly, this is the catalyst for why they turned on her.

[limber anvil]

Yup

[uncut holly]

The Weavers locked up GMS to get away from GMS and their controllingness. They locked her up to escape. And then did the same thing she was doing but different. Because the apple did not fall far

[limber anvil]

Where is the uplifted part said

[wicked comet]

kinda but weaver were not created by GMS since if she could create them they wouldnt have the whole issue of reproducing and she wouldnt have to collect someone with 1/8 of weaver kind in thier blood of old age and of last on line just to get a bit of silk

[tropic arrow]

not stated, shown

[limber anvil]

Its implied she made them

[limber anvil]

Ah that cutscene

[tropic arrow]

we see a Pharlid turned into a Weaver after a thread shows up, in the First Sinner cutscene

followed by a text saying something along the lines of "she called us her holy children... she lied..."

Clearly, the Weavers did not take kindly to this

[limber anvil]

I see

[silver spire]

i have a headcannon:
down in the abyss, the weavenest is called weavenest absalom, which leads me to believe that the weavers were the first children of pharloom, but eventually they tired of GMS's rule. therefore, they went down into the abyss, and used the void in combination with song and silk to lull gms to sleep. this is based on the fact that absolom is a character in the bible who tried to rebel against king David, but eventually failed. additionally, we've seen how songs can interact with void based things and also even activate traps.

but because of their meddling with the void, they eventually died out

[tropic arrow]

The Weavenests seem to be named after the Weavers that were deified

[wicked comet]

yeah she clearly used them and maniplated them when she actually needed them

[wicked comet]

they died out because they could get children

[limber anvil]

My guess is she uplifted them as she wanted children but was a crap parent.

[wicked comet]

that is why they made eva

[teal finch]

i actually dont really think that the gms was awake to begin with because during the memory that plays after widow fight the dialogue implies theyre trying to wake her up (theres similar dialogue in a hidden part of the cradle too)

[uncut holly]

So we know that the Weavers where not the first people in Pharloom, the oldest civilization we know in Pharloom is the people who made The Marrow. AKA Pharlooms great Ancestors. The Ants, Stick Bugs, Crabs, and Green Dancers came before them though.

[silver spire]

could be a combination, idk

[karmic tartan]

We've seen about 6 named weavers

[tropic arrow]

Their extreme difficulty in reproduction is likely why they died out

[tropic arrow]

Yes, doesn't really change the point

[void smelt]

why the weavers made Eva?

[vast agate]

the void really is just the most powerful thing in the HK universe huh, i mean without ||the knight’s help hornet and lace both would’ve died with gms||

[tropic arrow]

Seems to be several reasons

[silver spire]

so basically khann, karmelita, nyleth, and clover dancers

[void smelt]

Which are the reasons?

[uncut holly]

Yep they where the OG's, also the Craws, and the Swamp People where also around. The Snail Shamans, and the Pinstresses where also before the Weavers too.

[karmic tartan]

But the ancient civilization is below the marrow and therefore older

[limber anvil]

https://youtu.be/R2Gf4ZQjzpY?t=21s

[wicked comet]

no way to have children they tried to fix with other bloodline eva was a failure while hornet a sucess the proof of eva failing is that she need the iron shell to survive

[silver spire]

thatw as supposed to be our third 💀 ?

[stiff night]

was pale king right to ban lifeblood

[silver spire]

that was my second silk heart lol

[tropic arrow]

Eva mentions that she was an attempt at bypassing a curse the Weavers had, their extremely difficult reproduction.

Meanwhile a rune harp found in the same Weavenest she is in mentions that she is "divinity mimicked in too frail a shell".

It is possible Eva was wrong about her purpose, or she was made for 2 purposes, to make a divine being, one that can rival Grand Mother Silk, and to overcome their reproduction issues

[silver spire]

probably

[uncut holly]

Yeah their older, but they are more everywhere in the Hollow Knight world and not really Pharloom. They probably long predate Pharloom as a place.

[karmic tartan]

Second is from unravelled right?

[silver spire]

havent fought that yet xd

[tropic arrow]

Second is from Unravelled, yes

[silver spire]

i just finished getting every crest

[glossy badger]

Unravelled more like eat my tacks

[wicked comet]

I got that one last

[karmic tartan]

So yeah the ancient civilization was the oldest thing in pharloom

[tropic arrow]

The Weavers were not successful with either

[tropic arrow]

same

[glossy badger]

How did the citadel bugs resource silk

I know in the white ward there's these machines

[void smelt]

Why the flies in the slab are stilldoing their job, if they are not controlled by the GMS?

[tropic arrow]

No, she was definetly put to sleep at some point, likely by the Weavers. These lines from Mask Maker is notable:
Hornet: The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.
Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?
Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.
Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[limber anvil]

Got that one second as well

Progression wise it is doable seconf

[silver spire]

guys what even are the silk hearts

[tropic arrow]

Silk is soul, just in a different form.

The Weavers seemingly taught some bugs in the citadel how to make silk, but the Conductors, after taking the rule from the Weavers, seemingly hunted down Weavers for their silk

Citadel under the rule of the Conductors seems to have been, uh, pretty addicted to Silk

[karmic tartan]

It's earlier game than the lace 2 one

[void smelt]

???

[tropic arrow]

they might just be jerks

[karmic tartan]

Because they like their job

[silver spire]

not when ur so creeped out by whiteward that the only 2 times you went there were to get tf to clawline and rescue shawma

[tropic arrow]

This event, where the Weavers goaded other mortal bugs into "some defiance", is likely the event that put Grand Mother Silk into her slumber

[karmic tartan]

Whiteward = Soul Sanctum

[glossy badger]

We're the conductors making silks using the soul of others and subsequently killing them in the process or from their selves

[tropic arrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpPlGcq4Q3k

[wicked comet]

there seems that the very first civilization were based on 2.5 thing 1. the void it was worshiped , people shaped it using soul + will , ( might be snail involved) . 2. pale beings all probably lived in one area since everbloom was called the First light from white lady and things like pale stag , pale king , white lady and many other of the kind being knows . 0.5 . this goes to the half anctient this that is plasmium or blue blood I forgot the name it seems to have sided with the void as its strongest area was found inside the abyss in HK and that eva calls it the forbidden blood just like in HK they call it taboo likely for siding with the void in a anctient fight

[silver spire]

thats actually real

[limber anvil]

Whiteward

[karmic tartan]

Oh yeah where the hell is the dusty vaults map

[limber anvil]

Which is doable before clockwork dancers

[tropic arrow]

Cardinius: ah yes, holy knowledge

[uncut holly]

So the Flies where condemned for a unknown crime, but they liked their position of stealing things from people, imprisoning them, and sometimes eatting corpses. They have this thing where they put down other people as being more of a sinner than they are making themselves feel better because they where told that they where born sinners.

[teal finch]

oh then in that case, in terms of the timeline its that widow betrayed the weavers by going back to gms after they put her to sleep, and thats why she got punished by not being able to produce silk?

[tropic arrow]

I don't actually know who put Widow in the state she is in

Whiteward 🤝 Soul Sanctum

creating nightmarish abominations

[wicked comet]

probably GMS and why weavers hated her

[steel flame]

So, GMS establishes Pharloom and considers herself a goddess, controlling everything with her false daughters. The bugs don't want to be dominated, so they carry out the white ward. The false daughters realize that GMS was deceiving them (what were they being deceived about?) and support the white ward. Afterward, they establish themselves as monarchs, and it all happens again. The bugs get upset and inject themselves with silk to go against them. GMS, still alive, grants them some of her power so they can defeat and imprison her false daughters. And that's how we end up where we are today. Could all of this be considered true?

[vital yacht]

Pretty sure Widow is supposed to to be that weaver from the city of steel

The one who is "staked to service"

[tropic arrow]

Actually, from what I gather, the Citadel was constructed after Grand Mother Silk was put to slumber

[uncut holly]

It would make sense if it was the other Weavers. Also Widow seems to be the Weaver Musician. They are also the only loyal to GMS. Maybe they tried to stop it at some point, I dont know.

[wicked comet]

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU MIGHT BE ONTO SOMETHING!

[teal finch]

actually yeah idk if widow willingly turned to gms or was brainwashed into it

[tropic arrow]

or at least, that's what Mask Maker's dialogue suggests

[wicked comet]

hear me

[uncut holly]

Widow cant weave on her silk though, so thats why she just uses it to pull things in her boss fight.

[wicked comet]

GMS used to take weaver and take off their mask block then from weaving her own silk and was brainwashed

[tropic arrow]

which.. I find somewhat weird, but regardless

[uncut holly]

She can weave on othe peoples silk though

[teal finch]

this is also how i intepret the timeline but now im wondering how FS' imprisonment falls into this because i assumed the slab was part of the citadel system

[wicked comet]

which would explain why first sinner has a broken mask !!!

and she said the GMS LIED

[tropic arrow]

Ok here is a shorthand of what I have

[void smelt]

I have the same question, someone can answer this

[vast agate]

MOSSSBAGGGGG
I NEED YOU MOSSBAGGG

[uncut holly]

Its possible that they did it with places like The First Shrine first.

[wicked comet]

did anyone hear what I was saying? is it possible that that theory is why weavers betrayed GMs?

[void smelt]

GMS wanted Hornet to obtain her ability so she can make basically silk ?

[vivid kernel]

@forest scroll we have to learn about the silksong lore

[wicked comet]

yeah she cant make her own

[forest scroll]

Alright

[vivid kernel]

somebody tell him the complete lore of silksong

[tropic arrow]

• The powers that predate Grand Mother Silk's arrival, the Skarr, the Coral people, Nyleth etc
• Grand Mother Silk arrives, basically stomps the local powers, uplifts the Pharlids into Weavers.
• First Sinner discovers they were uplifted from Pharlids, and not GMS' "holy children" as she said. Even if this wasn't THE event that led to them turning on her, it was a major catalyst.
• The mortal bugs of Pharloom are goaded to "some defiance" by the Weavers. This was partially successful. Grand Mother Silk is put to slumber.
• The Weavers devise the Citadel, as a means of keeping Grand Mother Silk asleep, and for them to rule as lavish leaders. Pharloom becomes the wretched theocracy we see in the game.
• The Weavers begin to fade, likely due to their reproduction problem. They seemingly "willingly" leave their rule to the Conductors, and it is now their burden to keep Grand Mother Silk eepy.
• The silk infusions to extend life in Whiteward result in Grand Mother Silk gaining minds to control. It's also possible the Conductors were not able to keep GMS sleeping as well as the Weavers were able to.
• The Haunting was seemingly a slow-burn, rather than an instant thing. Either way, she takes over the kingdom once more.
• This, I believe, is when Lace and Phantom were made, though it could be earlier, it HAS to be after the Weavers' betrayal, and after GMS is put to slumber.
• The events of Silksong
  @teal finch this is what I have, for the timeline.

[wicked comet]

so basically there was a place with diffrence kingdoms and tribes , then GMs came along she raised weavers to obtain silk , but weavers betrayed her and sealed her and took on a false rulership and proclaimed themselves rulers

[forest scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/choso-jjk-choso-choso-panic-insane-choso-anime-insane-gif-5693401929827560865

[void smelt]

Im Choso Fr

[void smelt]

Who are the Conductors?

[tropic arrow]

One of the castes when the Weavers were ruling, the highest one behind them

Their name tells their purpose well enough

[uncut holly]

Um.... So the timeline goes like this.

• People already exist in Pharloom with a long history.
• GMS shows up, ascends the Weavers calls them her daughters. Begins to oppress every other tribe and nation there similar to how we see in game likely, but they fight back.
• The Weavers learn the truth about GMS, they then imprison The First Sinner for finding this truth.
• The Weavers manage to put GMS to sleep with the creation of the Citadel of Song, they use a hypnotic call from the music to call in bugs to work at the Citadel. The bugs and their faith are actually towards the hypnotic call of the Citadel itself from the music. But the real god is the one that is being contained.
• Something happens and the Weavers are ousted, and the Conductors, Architects, and Vault Keepers take control. The Conductors are the main decision makers though.
• A particular Conductor of great renown winds up dying and people get cold feet about age, so they start doing experiments in the White Ward to lengthen the life span of people through injecting Silk, because Silk is Soul, they found a way to adjust it likely through Weaving to extend their life span.
• This act of expanding life spans continues for many years, maybe even hundreds, but little by little GMS gets more control over the Silk they put into themselves.
• Eventually the music stops, and from where it all comes down.
• GMS hunts down Weavers likely to maintain Lace, sadly because so much time has passed, and because Weavers have problems reproducing there arent many if any at all Weavers left. So GMS is getting a little desperate.
  (Start of the Game)

[wicked comet]

what do you think about the theory that weavers betrayed GMS because she turned them into things like the widows she took of their mask their identity and made them into her weaving machines that explain why first sinner has a broken mask as GMS tried to break it but first sinner refused to then worship her being the catalist to the rebellion?

[steel flame]

How did the Weavers made the GMS go asleep?

[teal finch]

i generally had the same idea w most of this, though i do recall that the green prince's lover struck a deal with the citadel in where he sacrificed himself to become the cogwork dancers in a failed attempt to save verdania. so the fall of at least verdania is a post-citadel construction event

[tropic arrow]

we dunno

[forest scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/jjk-gojo-gif-23192148

[tropic arrow]

details are sparse

[tropic arrow]

Yeah this lacks a lot of the details, those could be slotted in, I just wanted to keep it short, broad and simple

[uncut holly]

The Citadel of Song. The music must be constantly on 24/7. Its likely it all started with one big Weaver Silk Spell linked with the music that made her go to sleep.

[tropic arrow]

Also no, Verdania is not post-citadel construction

Hornet is pretty explicit that they fell under GMS rule

[forest scroll]

Yeah except there are three people giving me summaries at the same time.

[vivid kernel]

Be grateful

[wicked comet]

can someone give me a their op on this theory so I dont feel crazy?

[rugged storm]

what would happen if all the deep docks lava was drained into the abyss

[tropic arrow]

different ones!

Always good to remember that Hollow Knight lore is ambigious, and up for interpretation

[modest coyote]

1: the whole character about GMS- her complex about motherhood, about how she "calls the weaver children... but lied", that she made silk beings like lace and phantom, but they have a complex about whether they are "worthy lives" or not

2: the weavers are cursed with basically infertility. CLearly this curse occured after/during their transformation into weavers from regular spiders
"shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task"

3; another evidence of infertility and its possible work around is that herrah basically makes a deal with pale king (whose main power is having kids)- to get around this curse

4: the weavers are made in the image of their mother GMS, in a deliberate effort to "say we're her children, divine"
CONCLUSIONS:

we don't know why or how the weavers are infertile. It could be that there physical bodies are infertile as a result of GMS being infertile

it could be a way of GMS having control (in the same way monsanto makes it so their seeds produce plants which are infertile)

it could be completely unrelated and just be a thematic parralel

maybe GMS isnt physically infertile but has a mental block, or has no suitable partner

• if so maybe she imparted this onto her children

in any case we have some evidence: but not sufficient yet

[teal finch]

yeah i know they existed before citadel i mean that the loss of verdania is post citadel based on the dialogue from green prince after cogwork dancers

[uncut holly]

Conductors are the big guys in the suits, they are the leaders of the Citadel of Song, after the Weavers.

[void smelt]

why the weavers sent to imprision the first sinner? she found out the true

[steel flame]

So, could we theorize that Lace is a creation from GMS made to continue her ruling over Pharloom. However, as Lace is made completely by silk, GMS needs Hornet who can produce it by herself? And in this way, Lace continues to be alive and GMS continues her ruling?

[tropic arrow]

Yes, the loss of Verdania is seemingly pre-Citadel

[wicked comet]

can someone give me their op about the theory that weavers betrayed GMS because she turned them into things like the widows she took of their mask their identity and made them into her weaving machines that explain why first sinner has a broken mask as GMS tried to break it but first sinner refused to then worship her being the catalist to the rebellion?

[rugged storm]

what would happen if all the deep docks lava was drained into the abyss

[tropic arrow]

The Cogwork Dancers may have been just stored elsewhere

[modest coyote]

maybe but there are possible other explainations

[uncut holly]

First Sinner and stuff about them is very heavily debated, but its believed they where imprisoned by GMS for a very very long time. They where the First Weaver and they told everyone the truth that GMS didnt create them, and they werent their daughters. They just ascended them from already existing bugs.

[tropic arrow]

GMS is the primordial source of silk, she can produce it herself

[vivid kernel]

Lol

[modest coyote]

"she called us children, she called us divine... she lied" - first sinner

so its possible the rebellion was because she lied: either in calling them children, or calling them divine, or both

[steel flame]

Could we also say, that GMS has lost most of her power trying to maintain Lace alive? So as she needs someone to maintain Lace alive GMS tried to bring Hornet to Pharloom

[modest coyote]

very likely

[tropic arrow]

I personally believe that FS' discovery was at least a catalyst, if not THE reason, for why things between GMS and the Weavers ended up the way they did

[modest coyote]

well shes the weaver which we know was considered "the first rebel"

[teal finch]

someone here earlier mentioned how they interpreted lace having a silk heart as gms bestowing it to her so that she could partially sustain herself and i like that intepretation

[modest coyote]

so whatever the motivation- its certainly related to FS

[whole hawk]

Gonna throw a question out there. Pharloom is an amazingly designed map with tons of thematic connections that make sense.

but I have to ask where does the maggot water go?

[void smelt]

So the first sinner was imprisoned by the GMS

[teal finch]

that area originally wasnt like that iirc

[wicked comet]

hornet's shell maybe

[tropic arrow]

What do you think is raining on Greymoor?

[wicked comet]

NOOOOOOOOO

why did you make me imagine it

[tropic arrow]

I only speak the truth

[teal finch]

lmfaooo

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[rugged storm]

guys I think I know why verdania died too

[teal finch]

biggest truth nuke of this channel

[tropic arrow]

The water has to come from somewhere, and Bilewater is right above them

[vivid kernel]

NOOOOO

[teal finch]

LMFAOO

[void smelt]

and why the First Sinner attacked us (Hornet)? She went crazy or what

[tropic arrow]

Testing Hornet

[modest coyote]

piles in bilewater into the mist probably idk

[teal finch]

genuinely incorporating this into my interpretation of the timeline

[modest coyote]

OH

[teal finch]

its too peak

[modest coyote]

thats true

lMAO greymoor is shitty city of tears that makes so much sense

[tropic arrow]

I really wonder what Bilewater was called before it became Bilewater

[uncut holly]

First Sinner wanted to test you, its also possible that other Weavers put her in there, possibly because they didnt want to hear it? I am not sure, however its likely just as a test for you, they talk about spite keeping alive for all of those years, its probably just to test you.

[rain spindle]

I think mt fav area is greymoor tho

[tropic arrow]

You know, the waste from Putrified Ducts is why it's like that

[rain spindle]

Fav colors, fav enemies, fav ost

[void smelt]

To be sure, GMS couldn't produce silk, right?

[silver spire]

my favorite area is bilewater

[rain spindle]

Shes the mother of silk

[tropic arrow]

Alas, it shall be forever stained by sewage water rain

[wicked comet]

probably something clear and clean with a good are like verdanai but because of citadel wastes

[teal finch]

her name is Silk i think itd be weird if she didnt produce silk

[tropic arrow]

Brother, she has silk in the name

[void smelt]

then if she can produce silk, why she needed hornet?

[wicked comet]

yeah she cant

[silver spire]

HEAR ME OUT, its really cool level design, the boss forces you to be counterintuitive, and the enemies and music fit the area 👍

[rain spindle]

She didnt need hornet

She was enacting revenge on weavers

[uncut holly]

GMS could make Silk but they seemingly cant sustain Lace, its been theorized before that maybe GMS can only use pre existing silk but its really unknown. Whats certain is they need Weavers to maintain Lace

[tropic arrow]

Where do you think the threads for the Haunting come from, or the cocoon in the ass end of the Abyss in act 3

[wicked comet]

nah she needs silk to maintain lace

[silver spire]

but isnt GMS the primordial source of silk

[wicked comet]

she cant make her own

[teal finch]

her name is Silk

[uncut holly]

Its very likely though that GMS can make Silk because we see them make it, just for some reason they cant sustain Lace.

[tropic arrow]

Why are we certain Weavers were required to maintain Lace

[uncut holly]

I dunno it was pointed out here before, and it makes sense for them wanting Weavers.

[tropic arrow]

Like why are we so certain it's for THAT purpose

[uncut holly]

It might not be

[tropic arrow]

The way I see it, she wants revenge on the weavers, and that's about it, their silk is just also useful

[void smelt]

https://tenor.com/view/choso-choso-jjk-choso-jujutsu-kaisen-choso-anime-jujutsu-kaisen-gif-10037971888755283102

[wicked comet]

its clear in several dialogues that hornet was brought for HER SILK

[uncut holly]

All we know is Lace needs A LOT of silk to survive, and that their existence is very fragile.

[teal finch]

it actually makes more sense for the citadel bugs to have been actively seeking weavers to get more silk for Their prolonged lifespans

[tropic arrow]

Sure. Doesn't mean it's for maintaining Lace.

[modest coyote]

GMS could produce silk thats her whole thing

[muted lantern]

I have a game theory

[wicked comet]

its clear she want to use a weaver to gain silk for all various silken purposes

[uncut holly]

Yeah we see GMS make a ton of silk throughout the game.

[tropic arrow]

No doubt Grand Mother was looking for a way to wake from her slumber, Hunter journal mentions that she is desperate to wake

The Weavers may be needed for that purpose

[uncut holly]

Infact if theres one thing we see GMS do, its make and use Silk.

[wicked comet]

she cant if she could she wouldnt have brought hornet and other weavers for their SILK

[muted lantern]

The reason graol knows how to use soul magic instead of silk unlike most enemies in SS, is because he forced the snail shaman to teach him before he kills it

[void smelt]

Now the debate is whether GMS can produce silk or not.

[uncut holly]

Oh no they definitely can

[void smelt]

EXACTLY

[silk dirge]

its bc he ate the shaman lol

[teal finch]

are we certain its gms thats even wanting the weavers

shes asleep

[whole hawk]

GMS is still weakened by the Citadel.

[uncut holly]

They do in The Cradle they have records tracking Weaver locations, where Weavers were found where they fled to.

[tropic arrow]

Cursed thought btw, the white around Grand Mother Silk is silk she wove around herself.

This means Grand Mother Silk is naked down in the Abyss, seemingly having used the silk on her.

Make of this knowledge whatever you will.

[modest coyote]

she probably is using it to sustain all the silk beings

[silk dirge]

you cant just "learn" soul spells like that

the knight can do that bc theyre special

mortal bugs cant just learn a soul spell

[void smelt]

THen why searching for the weavers and bringing Hornet to Pharloom

[wicked comet]

you can find a room in the cradle of with all the cars used to bring weavers

[void smelt]

Yesss

[teal finch]

yes but is that gms giving the command or the higher up bugs

[uncut holly]

At the very end when Silk gives Silk to Lace to blast off back up out into the Void Sea, we see complete Black Silk, well almost complete black.

[silver spire]

guys is sprintmaster swift related to the sprintmaster charm or dashmaster charm by chance

[modest coyote]

ok apparently this is a controversy but it really shouldnt

hornet is LITERALLY GMS grandchild

1: GMS made the weavers
2: the weavers are all female
3: hornet is 50% weaver

hence:

hornet is the child of a full first gen weaver

hence:

hornet is GMS grand daughter

[uncut holly]

I think so they look similar, maybe its his dad or something

[modest coyote]

its not that complicated she literally has "grand mother" in her name!

its a pun!

[silk dirge]

except the weavers arent really biological children of gms

[tropic arrow]

Grand Mother, not Grandmother REEEEEEEE

[uncut holly]

Hes Sprint Master, thats Dash Master. Maybe their related they look similar.

[modest coyote]

ok but u know what i mean

[silk dirge]

yeah

[modest coyote]

ITS A PUN

[silk dirge]

but i doubt thats why

[modest coyote]

they basically come from a lineage - not necessarily biological

[silk dirge]

maybe it can be taken both ways

[modest coyote]

yes- its a PUN

[tropic arrow]

It's not a pun, she is a Mother that is Grand, not a Grandmother

[modest coyote]

shes also hornet's grandmother...

[uncut holly]

I mean this is true

[sinful nimbus]

By extension Lace and Phantom are her aunts

[tropic arrow]

Debatable when taking into account that Weavers aren't her children per se

[modest coyote]

which is why shipping them is VERY WIERD

[sinful nimbus]

And First Sinner with Widow

[void smelt]

So, Why Hornet was brought to Pharloom?

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah Weavers arent their children so they arent

[modest coyote]

thats true but theyre close enough to being her kids

[sinful nimbus]

Well them being children is a bigger issue

[modest coyote]

u wouldnt date your adopted sibling right?

😭

sure theyre not biologically GMS kids but theyre close enough

[uncut holly]

Hornet was brought to Pharloom by GMS because they are part Weaver and can Weave Silk, Weavers are seemingly very wanted by GMS.

[tropic arrow]

There is possibilities.

For her Silk? In act 3, Lace does say that she denied GMS "your silken strength".

To be her child? Lace implies this in act 2.

To maintain Lace?

All possibilities.

[sinful nimbus]

Its 1 and 3

[uncut holly]

We know that GMS wants Weavers

[void smelt]

https://tenor.com/view/choso-choso-jjk-choso-jujutsu-kaisen-choso-anime-jujutsu-kaisen-gif-10037971888755283102

[teal finch]

but she also doesnt like the weavers based on the dialogue talking about phantom/lace's creation

[sinful nimbus]

Idk when its implied GMS wants Hornet to be her child

[tropic arrow]

Personally, I think GMS is looking for a way to wake from her slumber, and that's why she is hunting down the Weavers. That, and revenge.

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah GMS feels betrayed by the Weavers but she wants to collect them for some reason, and is going in to other kingdoms just to capture them. Unfortunately there arent many Weavers left anymore.

[silver spire]

chat what's yalls favorite track in the game so far

[tropic arrow]

"Face the holy mother who would fashion a daughter so crude and cruel as me"
"After all, it's you that she wants, isn't it?"

[whole hawk]

GMS is just inverted Pale King. No Cost too Great (for my child).

[uncut holly]

Well except for Widow. But Widow has Silk problems, their silk is damaged and it cant be used to Weave on. Thats why in the Widow Boss Fight, they only use their Silk to Pull things.

[whole hawk]

They spell it out for you at the end really.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes for her silk

[silver spire]

for ambient, its between songclave, choral chambers, and bilewater
for boss, im really torn between trobbio, lace, lost lace, and widow

[modest coyote]

she is infertile whereas pale king is literally god of fertility (he has 10000000 kids)

[wicked comet]

I FOUND IT They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell. Not for themselves but for the one atop it all. [NPC]:Ahh ha! Truth. In Pharloom, yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure, to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked.[NPC]:It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now.. THERE they brought hornet for HER SILK , the act of having silk infused with soul is a WEAVER SKILL GMS CANT PRODUCE HER OWN SILK SHE NEEDS WEAVERS

[rocky smelt]

someone said u can find Mort's corpse in act 3? Where is it?

[tropic arrow]

The parallels between Lace and Pure Vessel serve to highlight their contrasts, and that of their parents as well, even more.

[teal finch]

i think there are multiple angles for why weavers were hunted

1. gms wants revenge for being put to slumber and so exercises her influence on the citadel bugs

2. the citadel bugs want weavers so that they have more sources of silk (this may have become a scarcity when the weavers ran away from pharloom).

[void smelt]

The Conductos, Architects and the Vault Keepers dethroned the weavers of Pharloom??

[silver spire]

yea i think thats caretaker convo

[limber anvil]

Think the reason phantom was a failure was due to her frailty

[uncut holly]

yes

[wicked comet]

seamstress

[limber anvil]

After double checking the in game text

[void smelt]

ur goated

[silver spire]

ohhh

[tropic arrow]

The Conductors did, although the rune harp kinda implies that the Weavers passed it on, rather than it being a Coup D'etat or the like

[steel flame]

Homie, then in that case why is Lace still alive if she is made from silk and maintained alive by GMS?

[limber anvil]

Yeah

Also weavers apparently had difficulty having children

[void smelt]

Okok, now, who created Conductos, Architects and the Vault Keepers?

[steel flame]

Why is Lace still alive if she cant make her own silk and is apparently made from silk?

[limber anvil]

Probably the weavers helped build them then passed on the role to them

[wicked comet]

GMs already had a lot of silk and a lot maybe she abandonned phantom to save cost but she clearly has a lot of reserves but still needs more also there already existed some weavers when we came (widow)

[modest coyote]

GMS gave her a silk heart

[uncut holly]

The Conductors where bugs elevated in status and position in the Citadel. When they got their position they got these big suits to make them look bigger and more imposing, but it is just a suit.

[limber anvil]

Silkheadt

[modest coyote]

we literally geet a silk heart from lace...

[tropic arrow]

The caste system as a whole likely dates back to the Grand Mother's rule, and seeing as Verdania met it's end under them, the Architects had to be around back then to make the Cogwork Dancers

The Citadel seemingly didn't exist back then, so the Cogwork Dancers were stored elsewhere (who knows where) until then

[uncut holly]

The Architects where robots made by the Weavers and other Citadel Engineers originally the Architects might have been people, The Vault Keepers are just knowledge keeping bugs with alot of sanctity around it.

[modest coyote]

nobody is that sure of the history of the citadel

[uncut holly]

Well we know some things happen after others

[modest coyote]

mask maker implies the weavers ran it for a time, and they had a part in all its cruelty

[wicked comet]

They share my nature, or some part of it. I've seen their Silk at work, in vast scale.[Hornet]:It snares the shells of those upon the roads, and guides with false life the many hollowed husks left to lapse. maybe GMS could make her own silk but it was not the same as the WEAVERS?

[whole hawk]

Well we're not so sure what the Citadel was really like back then. Isamor hints that the Citadel was less grand and more of an ascetic temple back then

[void smelt]

So, Vault Keepers and Conductors are Bugs in Suits, and Architects are robots built by Weavers

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[teal finch]

i forget exactly where but theres dialogue that implies the robots were developed during citadel era iirc though

[tropic arrow]

We know Verdania met it's end under GMS rule, and we know from Mask Maker that the Citadel was MADE to keep GMS asleep

[limber anvil]

Well I assume hornet is supplying lace silk for the rest of eternity XD

[steel flame]

So, Phantom is still alive because her silk heart still functions, and for some reason GMS still "reignites" the silk heart of Lace?

[teal finch]

its seen as the final step in permanent worship of gms or somethkng

[limber anvil]

It could also be due to her frailty

[modest coyote]

MOSSBAG give us the lore please!

[tropic arrow]

Mask Maker all but says that the Citadel was made after the Weavers started ruling

[whole hawk]

This might be pre-GMS even. Like the Citadel was more of a temple in Nepal than the one we have now that co existed with the other tribes.

[tropic arrow]

It is of their design

All we can really say, is that the Citadel did not exist while GMS was first ruling

[whole hawk]

But it was inevitably subverted. By weavers? The caste? Who knows.

[void smelt]

Are they friends of the Weavers ?

[wicked comet]

could be the reverse since you can see phantom was falling apart when you see her so maybe lace had a silk heart but incomplete so she needed weaver silk to complete?

[teal finch]

the memorium existing is another piece of evidence that the citadel is post gms though

[tropic arrow]

The "golden leech", as Green Prince puts it, comes after

[tawdry flare]

the citadel was made to contain GMS though

[void smelt]

made by who?

[tawdry flare]

the weavers iirc

[teal finch]

weavers according to mask maker dialogue

[whole hawk]

That's the the grand gilded music box Citadel though. Isamor speaks of a plain stone temple.

[tropic arrow]

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[uncut holly]

So the Weavers originally ran the Citadel of Song, they made it. At some point those 3 groups took over, with them being led by the Conductors. Its not 100% clear if it was a hostile take over or if the Weavers left the place to them.

[modest coyote]

i 100% agree these must be pre weavers

notice how they dont have any bells?

[steel flame]

In that case, why is Phantom so chill in bilewater and not looking for silk to maintain herself alive?

[tropic arrow]

Some robots may predate the Weavers, but the Citadel is post-GMS, and of Weaver design

[void smelt]

1. The Weavers after ''defeating'' GMS, wanted to rule over Pharloom?
2. Why the Weavers left Pharloom?

[sinful nimbus]

What the devils

This is so cool

[tropic arrow]

It is somewhat contradictory that the whole Verdania thing happened under GMS, aka before the Citadel, given Cogwork Dancers, but it can be explained

[rocky smelt]

what on earth where is this

[uncut holly]

So the Weavers put GMS to sleep, some left because they where afraid and saw them as a ticking time bomb others stayed. The ones in Hollow Knight left. The ones that stayed intended to rule.

[limber anvil]

My guess is that the citidel wasn't what it was today but it existed to a smaller degree

[tawdry flare]

didnt we determine that it happened during the citadel weaver era

[limber anvil]

My guess is the cradle and a few areas existed

But the rest came after

[whole hawk]

Whispering Vaults. One of the really hidden secrets there.

[rocky smelt]

she wants freedom from her duties, basically she wants to die

[uncut holly]

When the Weavers ruled the Citadel the hierarchy looked like this.

1. Weavers
2. Conductors
3. Vault Keepers, Architects
4. High Society (The Gourmand, Trobbio)
5. Lower High Society
6. Elite Choir Guards
7. Choir Guards
8. Servants of varying ranks with masters
9. Underworks

[modest coyote]

is the cradle where the weavers were "born"?

[rocky smelt]

how do you get here?

[tropic arrow]

Hornet is pretty clear that Verdania met it's end directly because of GMS

[modest coyote]

like were the weavers given enlightenment in the cradle?

cause its close to the surface, and also literally called "cradle"

[whole hawk]

One of the benches has a hidden wall next to it iirc

[modest coyote]

how would she know that for sure

[tawdry flare]

Here is my Reliable Source that it was the Citadel

[tropic arrow]

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.
Feel guilt at your absence, sir, but know the end was inexorable, the outcome set, whether you remained or not.

[silver spire]

i just got to this dialogue today for clover dancers 😄

[modest coyote]

how would hornet know that for sure

[silver spire]

that boss was so fun

[rocky smelt]

this could again be because the Citadel only exists because of GMS, green prince himself implies the citadel caused verdanias fall

[tropic arrow]

When a story does not give implication of a character being wrong, and they are a reliable source, "they were simply wrong" is not a valid answer in my view

[tawdry flare]

Here is my other Reliable Source

[wicked comet]

Though grey with age, their frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline from journal shows that the decline isnt fast but slow so maybe it didnt care you can see it holding its mask while fighting so maybe it didnt care one thing for sure it was not maintained

[tropic arrow]

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

Pretty clear that Citadel is post GMS

[modest coyote]

i mean we know hornet doesn't know much about the history of pharloom to begin with

[teal finch]

yeah i cant pull up the gprince dialogue atm but he says his partner gave his soul to save verdania (and failed), and we know his soul was used to make the cogwork dancers

[tropic arrow]

Mask Maker is as reliable a source as it gets

[modest coyote]

im not saying hornet is wrong but that i am hesitent to use her for sure

[silver spire]

yea his partner's soul was split in 2 to make the cogwork dancers

[uncut holly]

Phantom has a ton of empty Silk spools in their place, they probably where looking for a lot of Silk, and they just couldnt take it anymore. Especially having to do it by themself

[modest coyote]

100%

[tropic arrow]

Cogwork Dancers existing pre-Citadel is weird, but not impossible

The Citadel of Song was not constructed in a day

[teal finch]

the robots were a citadel invention though

based on a relic dialogue

[void smelt]

Phantom is like a failed expriment by GMS and then abandoned to her luck

[uncut holly]

Yeah, Phantom wasnt failed. Its just that how they where coded and their personality GMS didnt like.

[whole hawk]

I think before the weavers and GMS, the Citadel was just a humble mountain temple. Styled like one in the Himalayas. It had its own hindu/buddhist adjacent religion which explains the presence of rosaries and pilgrimages. Because I find it hard to believe that the weavers concocted this entire fake religion to fool pilgrins into feeding the Citadel. There was an existing religion and culture that they completely warped to fit their version of the Citadel that would contain GMS.

[tropic arrow]

Is it ever explicitly stated they were made post-citadel only

[tropic arrow]

That is literally, EXPLICITLY, why the Citadel was made

[teal finch]

i cant pull up the dialogue atm but it heavily implied it

[steel flame]

Then how is phantom still alive? If her silk is still running out

[rocky smelt]

which relic is it? i can find it

[whole hawk]

Pious Isamor says otherwise unless we believe that's just another weaver made propagands.

[teal finch]

i cant recall off the top of my head but it may have been one of the commandments

[tawdry flare]

How are YOU still alive if your time is running out

[uncut holly]

So GMS made Lace. And have unreasonable favoritism towards them.

Both Lace and Phantom are Silk Constructs, Lace doesnt think that they are alive. Because they are Silk that has been Weaved(Coded) to act like a child. So they dont believe they are real, but Hornet disagrees and says they are a real person even if they are unconventional.

[whole hawk]

But all talk about the Citadel as a grabd shining structure but only Isamor mentions it as a plain faced stone temple.

[rocky smelt]

she's fading and wants to die

[uncut holly]

I mean she is black, and she isnt normally meant to be black.

[void smelt]

Hey this makes a lot of sense

[wild zinc]

Shermas song while in white ward is so sad btw he’s finally reached the citadel he literally worships and then come across a survival horror level and believes all the atrocities there somehow slipped by the citadels light

[tropic arrow]

Weavers were like "hey guys, we need some way of keeping Grand Mother Silk asleep"

And another was like

"Let's make the most grandiose, gleaming city ever, along with a constructed religion, to draw in pilgrims, and keep her asleep in song"

And the Weavers were like

"Genius"

[wicked comet]

can we talk about how HORNET : says that the bugs in the abyss arent their cousin?

[teal finch]

isamor explicitly refers to uou as a pilgrim and its a statue of a citadel pilgrim, my interpretation is that the citadel definitely wasnt as gilded as it was when hornet saw it but the citadel itself and its creation was very much because of the weavers

[uncut holly]

It probably was originally, originally the Citadel existed before it was used as a giant source of Song to put them to sleep. We dont know why it existed, but it could have just been a place of worship.

[teal finch]

it probably got to that gilded state after the forge lineage was made

and metal working really took off

[tropic arrow]

Again, Mask Maker is pretty explicit that the Weavers devised (aka came up with) the Citadel

Like it's literally their design

[modest coyote]

wdym

[tropic arrow]

So blame the Weavers for the one time use benches, not GMS

[modest coyote]

we dont know when those arose

but its a good suggestion

[tropic arrow]

Seeing as they devised the Citadel, they made the Underworks

[teal finch]

citadel infrastructure, so its weaver

mesnt to respond to aleph

[tropic arrow]

Again, it's put in no uncertain terms that the Citadel is made by the Weavers

[modest coyote]

that doesnt mean they made everything in it

[tropic arrow]

The Underworks is crucial to it's running, so it most certainly was there from the beginning

[deft lake]

So, I just beat Lost Garmond

Is he dead

[tropic arrow]

Yes

[modest coyote]

im not saying they didnt make the underworks- just that we dont know hte nature of it

[deft lake]

Man

[tropic arrow]

If someone is saying "let me just close my eyes for a bit" they are 100% dead

[uncut holly]

So the other lower lands that sustain the Citadel of Song. Greymoor who grew all the crops and food that went up to the citadel. Sinners Road who hunted the Muck Maggots in the water, and the Muck Roaches those maggots grew into for food. and Deep Docks which mined their ore so they can construct their walls and structures.

All of these are likely predicated on the Weavers hypnotizing the first lineage or threatening them into service, with it eventually becoming common practice.

Certain creations by the Weavers such as "Moorwing" were made from them breeding a giant flying Mite (or Mouse Bug) to hunt down people who fled from their duties in Greymoor and Sinners Road.

[deft lake]

I know

I was just in denial and hoped someone would feed my delusions

[modest coyote]

the rain in greymoor is from bilewater btw

[tropic arrow]

I repeat, the rain under which the crops in Greymoor grew is sewage rain

[void smelt]

So basically, the citadel already existed before GMS. But the Weavers took it and transform it ofr their own purpose?

[uncut holly]

Ye it come from Bile Water, its gross rain

[teal finch]

my initial response to this message was:
and in terms of motive for Why the hell they even did something so complex, its probably so that they could be as detached from gms as possible. so they devised the citadel, the related infrastructure, and had an entire propaganda campaign to ensure that generations of pharloom bugs would fall for it

like mask maker said it is their web

[tropic arrow]

No. The Citadel did not exist pre-GMS. The Weavers designed the Citadel to keep GMS in slumber.

[uncut holly]

Yeah basically, except it got way bigger when the Weavers made it to contain GMS, it was likely very small by comparison before.

[tropic arrow]

Literally everything about Pharloom is a sham

[teal finch]

shamloom

[void smelt]

Yes or no 😭

[tropic arrow]

The Citadel and the whole pilgrimage and what not is to just draw in Pilgrims so they can keep GMS asleep

[teal finch]

mfers probably made up the term pharloom

[tropic arrow]

It's why Ballador says Pharloom only ever had one true monarch

[rocky smelt]

"Last words of the Weavers. "Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence. We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free"

Yeah they definitely set it up so itd continue for generations without their influence

[uncut holly]

Ye Citadel existed. But it was way small compare to now

[tropic arrow]

For are you truly the ruler if your entire rule is based around keeping this one being in their current state?

It's probably why Mask Maker calls the Weavers' rule "their false rule"

[uncut holly]

The Weavers did still make it though, but they made it with a different purpose back then. It was just a place to chill and worship.

[void smelt]

So the Pilgrimage things is to bring pilgrims to the citadel to sing to mantain the GMS asleep?

[steel turret]

So what do we think the dlcs are gonna be about?

[uncut holly]

Yes

[modest coyote]

GMS is called "the monarch"

[cloud mesa]

pharloom never was a proper kingdom like hallownest was was it?

[modest coyote]

clearly GMS was the ruler of something even before the citadel (as designed by weavers)

[tropic arrow]

And if you read a few sentences past that:
Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise.

[uncut holly]

Pharloom was a Kingdom, it just is set up very differently to Hallownest.

Very very different

[void smelt]

Was a Kindom with biodiversity ?

[tropic arrow]

Yes, Pharloom is a theocracy, Hallownest was a monarchy

[modest coyote]

pharloom is basically pharoahnic egypt

[tropic arrow]

I never said she didn't rule something, I just said the Citadel wasn't a thing when she ruled

And if it was, it'd be unrecognizable compared to the Citadel today

[modest coyote]

agreed

[uncut holly]

Pharloom does have a council of rulers instead of just one, but its very caste system like. Theres levels, and as we see with the Vault Keepers if you dare talk back to someone of such a high level they will throw you to the Underworks

[tropic arrow]

It's a theocracy with a caste system

[modest coyote]

they also have a slavery funnel

[wicked comet]

finally I found the journal entry These ones grow large, yet I have never observed them eating, or sleeping. They seem such simple bugs... but I suspect they are not truly our cousins , what does hornet mean by these bugs arent our cousing ( large abyss crawler)

[modest coyote]

because the abyss crawler lives in. the abyss but is not actually made of void

[uncut holly]

Yeah they do alot of slavery. The Underworks is Pilgrims who get there and told they will be good enough if they just work a little harder. Some Pilgrims get there and instead become Servants but it all is just, really really bad.

[modest coyote]

whereas hornet is "cousins" with the void through pale king's void kids

[vast agate]

i interpreted that as being they don’t have any shared ancestors, like they’re a different species that came down a different evolutionary path due to the effects of the abyss

[uncut holly]

Like in game you see those Pilgrims walking around in the white robes, they are all servants but their happy just to be in the regal place.

[wicked comet]

yeah it is pretty weird but what does she mean by our cousin are they maybe the descendence of the original void worshipers? did they receive the primal aspid treatment?

[teal finch]

this is also how i interpreted it

[uncut holly]

The people in the lower levels though, they have to fly next to saw blades and work with them, and no one would care if they got grinded.

[modest coyote]

just because you live in the same country doesnt mean you are related

shadow charger lives in the void, adapted to it, but is not literally made of void

[tropic arrow]

Pay to use. Once. Benches.

[modest coyote]

hornet isnt void but shes related to it via the knight who is void

[uncut holly]

With Pale King the benches where FREE

[wicked comet]

i never said they were made out of void but maybe they are hiding lore as I said original void worshipers ?

[tropic arrow]

State funded benches ftw

[wicked comet]

I dont talk politic often but FOR THIS YES #paleking2026

[uncut holly]

The Kings Gold funded

[modest coyote]

maybe but whatever relationship i dont understand it

[uncut holly]

The King and his gold hath funded these benches

[tropic arrow]

Again, I think the only thing Pale King was worse at than GMS and the other rulers of Pharloom, on the "things they did bad", is the number of deaths, mostly because of the infanticide of absurd proportions.

[vast agate]

but all humans are related in that we have a common ancestor if you go back far enough, we are the same species, it makes sense to assume the same thing for all the bugs above the abyss as well

whereas the “bugs” in the abyss are their own species, unique to any bugs that exist above

[modest coyote]

i dont think so because you wouldnt use cousin such a manner IMO

[vast agate]

and wouldn’t be able to reproduce with the bugs above

[teal finch]

they dont eat or sleep in the conventional sense

[tropic arrow]

Hornet is basically saying that shadow creepers aren't truly bugs, the way I see it

[modest coyote]

plants dont eat or sleep either

[teal finch]

i think that specific line in the journal entry is meant to hint at the evolutionary divergence

[wicked comet]

wdym by truly bugs?

[modest coyote]

strongly disagree

[tropic arrow]

I am saying that shadow creepers are more akin to the other creatures in the void, and not quite bugs

The glooms and whatever

[modest coyote]

arent the shadow creepers infected by the radiance in hollowknight?

[vast agate]

i mean this is all speculation as we don’t have much lore on where the abyssal creatures came from, but i think the evolutionary divergence theory makes sense

[wicked comet]

I think its a entrie diffrent origin not evolution since evolution is spoke about the disgusting big thing

[tropic arrow]

Oh yeah

[modest coyote]

clearly infected by radiance

[tropic arrow]

Question

[smoky locust]

I think by "not our coisens" she's not just refering to them being evolotionary related anymore, and more implying.... they might not be bugs at all.

[tropic arrow]

What the actual frick were the Weavers doing down in the Abyss?

[wicked comet]

and she did say she found them everywhere if she went deep enough?

[uncut holly]

We see em free in this game, hes got grey eyes

[modest coyote]

how do the ones in hallownest get infested by radiance

[outer ermine]

zany void experiments

[tropic arrow]

They clearly took up residence down there, judgibg by the Weavenest.

[wicked comet]

so I really think void worshipers but devolved like primal aspid

[modest coyote]

which proves they can be infected by radiance

[vast agate]

yeah, i don’t think the abyssal creatures are like the vessels in that they’re just void inside, since it still seems like they need to eat and we know they can get infected

[modest coyote]

residence? no. we have bases in antartica but that doesnt mean people live there

[smoky locust]

The plants and walls got infested, pretty sure as a god once it hit crital mass it didn't matter if you were bug or not.

[rocky smelt]

mushrooms are infected by the radiance

[modest coyote]

mushrooms are not literal mushrooms as in the real world

[tropic arrow]

Weavenests seem like Weaver homes, but I digress, you get the point either way