sk-lore

[brisk finch]

They definitely read as the same age to me
Either as sisters (Sister of the void, lost lace ay)
Or as lovers (to tie it into Hornet's clear sadness in the journal)

[glossy badger]

I still don't understand it 😭

[lucid pasture]

yes both of them stop being children by the end and cut their ties with their lineage.

[glossy badger]

What was the need

[ember river]

He's living his best life and then EVERYTHING HE LOVES is utterly erased

[muted lantern]

Lace reminds hornet of her siblings, so I imagine it would be more of a sisterly bond. Besides hornet has a lot in common with phantom fighting style

[quartz plinth]

Also its not my fault Green prince Coudn't avoid the heart attack, imagine losing a mental battle so hard you just straight up die

[lavish needle]

Best life ? He looks really sad honestly

[glossy badger]

He looked at hornet funny he deserved it

[rocky smelt]

u rlly shoudve been able to chose which heart you kept if u got all four before doing the red memory instead of defaulting to green prince

[ember river]

Then his mind can't even remember those good times, and when you help him remember, you immediately killed him

[tawdry flare]

He’s mourning and can’t remember his home I don’t think that’s his best life 😭

[ember river]

I just got it after the red memory because it wasn't marked

[quartz plinth]

Why is she so bad

[dapper willow]

The memory bosses probably had the best ending they could have gotten
well at least karmelita and green prince did

[light saddle]

Glad I’m not alone in getting that vibe. I know almost everyone ships them, but honestly Lace has so much annoying little sibling energy — gotta love it lol

[ember river]

I mean he was. He was a ruler of a green, prosperous region where he was respected and beloved

[lavish needle]

I’m a little disappointed about khan…

[ember river]

Then everything he had was destroyed

[brisk finch]

(btw I've been assuming this channel is a spoiler parade, so I haven't been tagging consistently. Is that the rule?)

[ember river]

Including his lover in mind, body and even soul

[tawdry flare]

Oh I thought you meant when Hornet found him mb all

[ember river]

Yeah go wild

[muted lantern]

It's wild that people ship lacenet still, considering every piece of text in the game calls lace a child, and snail shaman says she has the mind and body of a child

[lavish needle]

This game is full of silk and song

[lean temple]

While Hornet is old as hell

[rocky smelt]

yeah on my og save i just found it by accident and didnt return to the shamans until i had all four and they auto collect the main three and u keep the conjoined heart

[brisk finch]

Child Wielding Needle

[quartz plinth]

"Lace is hornet's child figure" "Lace and hornet become friends" "Lace becomes Hornet's mother" regardless of what you think i think we all can agree that Hornet and Shakra make a much better couple

[brisk finch]

I don't trust other people's takes about age in this game, none of them can tell what Hornet is except for Mask Maker

[tawdry flare]

Yeah if you use spoiler tags you get timed out for 10 minutes

[rocky smelt]

but u can keep any heart u chose as long as u do it after giving the shamans the other 3 which is cool

[dapper willow]

Poor guy
I think out of all the dream fights he felt the most good
because the game just let me wack him with my nail unlike the other 3

[lean temple]

Shakra is being a doofus

[muted lantern]

Hornets also called miss grown up and Shakra corrects herself eventually, hornet also corrects snail shaman

[brisk finch]

Not just her

[light saddle]

Ikr? I remember people coping so hard a week or two ago about how Hornet was totally just insulting her and she definitely isn’t a child mentally

[brisk finch]

Like, it's consistent that people suck at telling the ages of these pale beings and their spawn XD

[ember river]

If anything I'd keep nyleth's heart because it's the boss I enjoyed the least out of them

[lean temple]

Hornet herself says none of her partners could match her lifespan. She's OLD

[cedar skiff]

for me the whole lacenet ordeal boils down to the fact that is so evident how hornet views lace and how the game wants you to view lace regardless of whether how techincally true that is or not (as a child)

[brisk finch]

Exactly

[quartz plinth]

But if you guys are also a Lace/Shakra/Hornet/Sherma polyamory lesbian relashionship truther then thats awesome as well

[tawdry flare]

Shakra just likes calling people short okay

[muted lantern]

Even the omniscient narrator calls lace a child

[brisk finch]

She is old, but most of the characters can't tell

[cedar skiff]

lace never corrects hornet calling her a child

[lean temple]

Eternal youth or something

[dapper willow]

its gonna pollen up her bellhome so hard

[rocky smelt]

i mean lace p much confirms its an act later in the game, she views herself as nothing beyond what she was created to be which is the child of GMS

[brisk finch]

She is factually not a child tho

She was made in the image of a child

[ember river]

I want the cut heart of the annoying beast though

[teal drift]

https://tenor.com/view/kevbo9-gif-9791840996518302524

[uncut holly]

I mean Lace acts like a child but they arent really a creature in the traditional sense. According to lace herself she is a silk construct who has been weaved in a way to make them act like a child. She doesnt beleive shes actually alive, but Hornet begs to differe

[cedar skiff]

the only reason lace starts breaking her facade is because gms control over her weakens

[brisk finch]

Like, no one has to ship anything, but the fact that Lace is not actually a child is important to characterization

[muted lantern]

The snail shaman describes her as having the look of a child and a mind to match, this is bordering on "she's actually a 1000 year old dragon"

[quartz plinth]

"Sir, the LaceHornet discussion has hit #sk-lore again"

[cedar skiff]

i said this before but lace being a child is as important as her not actually being one

[brisk finch]

You mean the same shaman that's surprised Hornet didn't know the full plan?

[ember river]

There's a really cool parallel there with Hornet's attitude towards Vessels

[cedar skiff]

her character and dynamic is so nuanced that shipping her with hornet is kind of just silly anyway

[uncut holly]

I mean Lace acts like a child but technically their a silk thing, that has code written on it to act like a child.

[lean temple]

Bcz they hid it from her...

[uncut holly]

Yeah it is a cool parellel

[rocky smelt]

lmao shes still probably my least fav but i enjoyed her a lot more on subsequent playthroughs by being more aggresive

[teal drift]

Is lace a child or an adult? Yes.

[muted lantern]

That doesn't imply he's uninformed? Only that hornet is? Lol

[brisk finch]

I do think that based on the journal Shakra is a nice fit, but I like the idea of our immortal protag having an immortal partner

[quartz plinth]

Honestly if Team cherry ever does a question podcast or anything we should all ask if lace is actually a child so we can put this debate to rest

[brisk finch]

That the shaman can't read people for shit XD

[lavish needle]

They don’t seem to like each other romantically yeah ?

[brisk finch]

I don't think they really meant to hide it, is the thing

[ember river]

And having been around the longest of the citadel that he's aware, too. I'm not defending any position but lace isn't really a child, no matter how much she pretends

[tawdry flare]

Lace is Hornet’s aunt anyway boom I win the shipping debate Shawkra is superior

[dapper willow]

"Oh you mean you didn't know we are going to plunge the kingdom into eternal darknes?? Don't joke around"

[cedar skiff]

im just gonna side eye you if you use the excuse that lace is actually super old thats all

[light saddle]

I feel like the shaman makes it a pretty open and shut case

[ember river]

She also has deep knowledge about how things work apparently

[muted lantern]

Not to mention the omniscient narrator portion of the hunters journal calls her a child

[quartz plinth]

Its funny though

[brisk finch]

tbf, that wasn't the plan
But yes, it's plain they assumed Hornet knew void was involved

[quartz plinth]

So people can stop arguing against it*

[brisk finch]

She clearly didn't, but they assume

[lean temple]

I mean it's fair for Hornet to assume they wouldn't pull something as insane as opening a portal straight into the Void

[quartz plinth]

I personally don't trust the shamans because fuck them personally they are horrible people

[light saddle]

We like to have fun here in #sk-lore

[teal drift]

Lacenet is such a bad ship even ignoring the child angle. Its like shipping hotnet and the knight.

[cedar skiff]

lacenet is just boring af

[cedar skiff]

truth nuke

[ember river]

Doesn't Hornet just go save Lace because otherwise GMS would destroy the kingdom?

[glossy badger]

I think the shaman was just saying lace is really immature

[ember river]

Hornet already thought Lace was dead for good

[cedar skiff]

yes

[ember river]

And Lace was laying as a corpse until you snare GMS

[brisk finch]

Manic fencer who delights in battle.
?

[dapper willow]

Shipping hronet with sentinel is better than with lace even

[tawdry flare]

The Lost Lace entry says something like “Silk-spun child consumed by the void”

[quartz plinth]

That is an anagram of "Kid"

[cedar skiff]

as i view it there is some sort of affection resulting from pity on hornets side and by the end she is burdened with taking care of lace anyway

[muted lantern]

Read the lost lace entry

[cedar skiff]

always burdened to replace grand mother silk in every ending

[lean temple]

She sees her own siblings in Lace

[cedar skiff]

now you have an entire silk being to take care of

[ember river]

If you remove mani, fencer, who, deligts, n, batte you get chil, which is one letter away from child

[quartz plinth]

I mean tbf they are kinda identical

So is lace actually wearing massive pants or is she actually built like that

[cedar skiff]

the lost lace description calls her a child i think thats what people mean

[lean temple]

Hornet is like one of the most tragic HK characters omg

[brisk finch]

Because she's her mother's child and Hornet's addition is all about GSM?
I'm confused, why is a characterization thing (people can't tell what a child is when ancients are involved, GSM's perception of children, the role Lace plays etc) turned into a shipping thing

[ember river]

Technically she is naked

[cedar skiff]

the last information we get about lace in game is that

[brisk finch]

idc who you ship who with, Lace is not actually a child

[cedar skiff]

absolue cinema

[quartz plinth]

What the fuck??????

Hornet not beating the allegations, my goat is washed

[quartz plinth]

Wrong reply mh bad

[glossy badger]

Shes made of clothes tho so is she really 🤔

[lean temple]

The goat Hornet would never

[ember river]

Good point

[uncut holly]

Muckmaggots might be related to Muckroaches, it makes sense as supposedly their mentioned to multiply very quickly to the point where their eatten as food.

[brisk finch]

TBF most of these guys are Donald Ducking anyway, clothes wise

[cedar skiff]

lol

[rocky smelt]

i saw some fanart where she had GMS weird scissor legs under the silk pants i thought that could be cool

[quartz plinth]

We are all naked because everyone is wearing only clothes, we are both naked in the inside and in the outside

[quartz plinth]

Do you have it i wanna see that, personally i imagine GMS as a wheelchair wound lady

[uncut holly]

Presumeably the trappers would be in Sinners Road for the Muck Maggots not the other way around

[ember river]

At least hornet realized the knight survived and is now kind of a god

[muted lantern]

It's based off old fencing outfits iirc

[glossy badger]

Yeah but one gets you arrested

[cedar skiff]

also goddamn the art improved

[quartz plinth]

Silksong if it was directed by zack snider

[brisk finch]

Speaking of endings: what do y'all think the Hollow Knight is up tp?

[quartz plinth]

No wonder why no one does fencing anymore

[cedar skiff]

dead

[brisk finch]

They're still around if we take the ending at face value

[ember river]

It's on holiday

[lean temple]

That must have been a huge surprise, although I'd imagine she assumes that they just went back to the Void never to be seen again.

[brisk finch]

Unless Hornet really did just kill them

[cedar skiff]

thk is a goner

[ember river]

The ending is intentionally ambiguous

[quartz plinth]

They were eating GMS and they just happened to stumble upon hornet

[light saddle]

Just… chillin, I spose?

[ember river]

You literally see the shade in DNM and see him in EtV

[cedar skiff]

unless its tricky team cherry trying to keep the canon hk ending as ambigious as possible

[brisk finch]

They're not voided last we saw them

[ember river]

Even if he dies he's just in teh void

[glossy badger]

Following where mister mushroom is going

[lean temple]

THK? We can't really know

[cedar skiff]

well yeah

[tawdry flare]

Considering it takes place after ETV and DNM, they’re either a Shade or just chilling in Hallownest

[brisk finch]

They were readying to fight Hornet, after Ghost/the Knight became Void

[quartz plinth]

Hello? Peak department?

[cedar skiff]

but this is silk and song

[ember river]

EtV isn't necessarily the canon ending, it's intentionally vague

[uncut holly]

GMS's favoritism towards Lace seems to be irrational, they mention how their "Spun Loyal" and are willing to preserve them even when they betray them. Then when Phantom exists GMS discards them, like the needolin dialogue suggests

[ember river]

There's not enough silk for both our songs...

[brisk finch]

Eh, there's only one ending I can see both flashes apply to, but it's not something I feel steady enough about to fight on

[uncut holly]

Although Phantom was likely before Lace

[brisk finch]

or well, "fight"

[sacred heath]

if dnm is canon thk is cooked
if etv is canon thk is prolly just. Vibing. Unbothered. Flourishing. Moisturized. In their lane.

[cedar skiff]

who first coined the term kingdom haunted by silk and song

[ember river]

If DNM is cannon the hollow knight returns with the rest to the void

[cedar skiff]

because fuck its misinformation

[brisk finch]

I hope etv is canon because I want them to make a game with thk as protag
And struggle to name it

[pale valve]

Phantom has to be before Lace, aren't they the ones in charge of expelling the Citadel's Waste through the Exhuast Organ?

[uncut holly]

Team Cherry

[ember river]

You see the shade rip open the radiance and survive

[brisk finch]

Team Cherry

[quartz plinth]

Watch the hollow knight arrive last second to save Hornet from Lord of shade Godseeker in the future dlc

[brisk finch]

This is why I want to know more about the City of Song phase of dev etc

[cedar skiff]

team cherry always forget theyre not abig team its easy to figure out who did these things.

[vivid kernel]

||if u read this just know that you got weavered||

[pale valve]

the ducts and bilewater can't be stinky if Phantom wasn't dumping it all there

[sacred heath]

we never did get that third playable character dlc… 😔

[uncut holly]

I dont think its misinformation, the Silk is definitely haunting people. And the song might be calling the Pilgrims to the Citadel, with the "ghostly call of the Citadel"

[tawdry flare]

The Song part is meant to keep GMS asleep iirc

[brisk finch]

That wasn't actually Zote, that was just thk in a zote mask, shrunken down

[rocky smelt]

if they make another game who do you think would be the best protag? I think Lace and THK are probably too similar to TK and Hornet, maybe Second Sentinel?

[glossy badger]

Next game we play as zote

[uncut holly]

Although the song isnt playing anymore, but their still coming, but they still could have been called by it back in their hay day and are just still coming.

[brisk finch]

I don't think they'd want a bigger protag, considering how much more work Hornet's size already was

[tawdry flare]

If they do a third I’d like it to be distant from HK & SS

[cedar skiff]

theyre too obsessed with their own world i think thats unlikely

[uncut holly]

I think a third game would be a very very big investment for them and I dont think we are getting it announced any time soon

[tawdry flare]

or Iselda I’ll also take Iselda

[brisk finch]

As the lethal hunter Hornet, adventure through a kingdom ruled by silk and song!
is still on the steam page btw

[limpid summit]

I don’t think they set up any character who would be a great playable character in a third game

[cedar skiff]

they kind of had to force themselves to stop making more silksong

[uncut holly]

I dont think TC purposefully intends to make huge games it just happens

[limpid summit]

I’m sure if they do a third HK game the character will be distinct

[brisk finch]

Pilby

[uncut holly]

Pilby!

[limpid summit]

Pilby!!

[brisk finch]

Actually hold on

[light saddle]

Sherma, obviously

[limpid summit]

TRUE

[cedar skiff]

hollow knight shoelace

[brisk finch]

The phrasing really used to be haunted by silk and song right?
Cause now it's ruled

[uncut holly]

Pilby disappeared for me on the current run, i unlocked Songclave and they where gone but i didnt learn their name.

[brisk finch]

which fits much better
When did that change lol

[cedar skiff]

mandela effect

[uncut holly]

I dunno where they are

[sage flame]

Lol a typo

[brisk finch]

Pilby has two paths

1. Bone Bottom -> Die
2. Bone Bottom -> Pilgrim's Rest -> Nowhere

There is no conclusion for Pilby, he just disappears and it frustrates me

[uncut holly]

Dont they go Songclave?

[muted lantern]

Pilby goes to the backrooms

[brisk finch]

Not according to the files and I haven't seen them there

If you have a screenshot or video please share

[limpid summit]

Typos are funny

[tawdry flare]

Is Pilby the Little Pilgrim?

[rocky smelt]

i dont think so either but i def think its happening eventually

[limpid summit]

You know WL has three of them in HK

[uncut holly]

I just heard they turned up in Songclave if you didnt let the Tyrant come to town

[muted lantern]

Narratively pilbys most satisfying ending is his funeral, as at least there's a conclusion

[sinful nimbus]

Pilgrims disappearing never to be seen is very funny

[limpid summit]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

I think it makes sense in the world and I don't really mind it tbh

[lucid pasture]

Well silksong literally has a to be continues in the ending so they are giving us sequel DLCS in silksong at the very least

[brisk finch]

This is almost everything for Pilby

[limpid summit]

I think Pilby will get a DLC sendoff like Ogrim did

[uncut holly]

Then Quiet Pilgrim replaces him, and i dont think i can save this guy I should have just made Tyrant come before he showed up

[limpid summit]

For players who went the extra mile

[brisk finch]

Only mister mushroom does, and that existed in HK when skong was still dlc and their next project unrelated

[tawdry flare]

oh. Yeah He’s In The Hole on my save

[cedar skiff]

give it 4 years and theres gonna be a save everyone% category where your job is to make sure all the npcs finish off at the most optimal places

[limpid summit]

Isn’t there a third pilgrim that replaces that one 💔

[uncut holly]

I think Quiet Pilgrims gonna die

[lucid pasture]

I mean yes silksong would be a sequel dlc doesnt change anything i said

[uncut holly]

I dunno? Quiet guys still here

[sinful nimbus]

Shoutout to my goat Exhausted Pilgrim, Halfway Home ain't the same without you 🙏

[muted lantern]

I also love that tc kinda gave up on sticking to the bug theme, in HK we had jellyfish and a few others, but now we have crow but bug and frog but bug /pos I love craw bugs and groal

[sinful nimbus]

true...

[grand kayak]

yeah like snails arent bugs

[brisk finch]

Mr Mushroom referenced other games in HK, it seems fairly certain to me he wasn't meant to be in the next HK project but in the next unrelated one

[pale valve]

do we know if GMS has always been there or if she came later?

[uncut holly]

Also the frightened Pilgrim in the Bell Way saddly dies and theres nothing you can do. We actually know where they wind up

[limpid summit]

We see a maskless Quirrel with no memories with the name “Old Pilgrim”

Hornet recognizes him

[limpid summit]

GMS was the first

[lucid pasture]

that does not make any sense lol

[limpid summit]

The first big player

[brisk finch]

Anyway
If Pilby dies, that's the most satisfying ending
If Huntress dies, that's the most satisfying ending and nets you a new character
If Green Prince dies, that's the most satisfying ending and nets you a bossfight

[sinful nimbus]

Better than Act 3

[lucid pasture]

they wouldnt do that

[pale valve]

quirrel is DEAD y'all

[muted lantern]

Where do they die?

[brisk finch]

TC whyyy

[uncut holly]

Wait what? I met old pilgrim?

[grand kayak]

quirrel is dead as shit

[limpid summit]

No I’m joking

[grand kayak]

that guy drowned himself

[tawdry flare]

Hornet is gradually driven insane by people who she fights and then don’t remember her

[brisk finch]

I never thought he drowned himself, I thought he just keeled over into the water

[uncut holly]

Oh they die outside The Marrow on the bottom entrance where the Fleas used to be, they are there always

[cedar skiff]

the concept of quirrels bug intestines raining over cot

[brisk finch]

Same difference, I suppose

[muted lantern]

When are we getting pale king dlc with divorce final boss

[cedar skiff]

silksong plasmium dlc

[limpid summit]

She goes back to Hallownest for DLC and WL has Alzheimer’s and forgets who she is even though they just talked in the red memory

[cedar skiff]

yall running out of shit to say about this game

[tulip halo]

I haven't played the game yet.

Will there be an explanation as to why the moth that landed on the cage in the cutscene broke the seal?

[grand kayak]

eh not really

[limpid summit]

Not an explicit one but yes

[rocky smelt]

I wanna go to the Homespear in the dlc please team cherry i need this

[uncut holly]

Its a silk butterfly bug thing

[cedar skiff]

i know thats not what this is but i dont undersand why so many people seem to think hornet would even want to return to hallownest

[tulip halo]

I see, I see

[cedar skiff]

she got closure on the knight

[uncut holly]

Its related to the kingdom and Silk, its likely just Hornet coming in the Kingdom that broke the cage

[cedar skiff]

she laments on standing guard over hallownests corpse for so long

[limpid summit]

Yeah I have to agree

[grand kayak]

yeah hallownest is pretty shitty idk why she would want to go back

[limpid summit]

Maybe she’d want to see WL after everything because APPARENTLY they had a bond thanks TC

[brisk finch]

I wonder where she was taken from, is that stated?

Was she even in Hallownest, or just the surrounding areas

[uncut holly]

Hornet says when you get a house that they wont stay here because they are a child of Hallownest

[limpid summit]

Well Hallownest yes

[pale valve]

so was GMS just a standard kind of awful ruler until she eventually took control of everyone to try and wrangle the remaining weavers back to her

[limpid summit]

The chamber was sent to the kingdom of the white Wyrm

[cedar skiff]

honestly i think it was likely not too long after the ending

[tawdry flare]

She was American

[cedar skiff]

so maybe just roaming around

she was weakend from the events of the ending likely

[lucid pasture]

genuinely it would be insanely stupid to be an ending to a game and say to be continued and not mean anything by it lol.
to be continued means something about HOLLOW KNIGHT FRANCHISE not about team cherry, thats how these things goes, it obviously implies there will be more story content here, whether it will be a dlc or actual new game we dont know

[limpid summit]

She wasn’t terrible until the Haunting but she did seem to forsake the Weavers in favor of Lace

[uncut holly]

GMS seems to believe that their Higher Being status means they can play god with all lower level things, and they like things in a very particular way. She values bugs being "loyal" to them above all else

[brisk finch]

Only mr mushroom is continued

[quartz plinth]

She didn't drop a thousand needles into Hollownest so

[brisk finch]

Why would that text only show up with them, otherwise? Why not have it in the final "thanks for beating the game" text? that only has the may we meet on the road, or something

[lucid pasture]

its not fucking only mr mushroom, its only in his ending because its supposed to be a funny easter egg, its still about hollow knight

[brisk finch]

Hey, chill.

[limpid summit]

The Citadel was much worse than pre Haunting GMS and the Weavers, and then GMS came back and just did more horrible stuff

[pale valve]

so did she kill all the Haunted bugs?

[uncut holly]

GMS also had 2 silk construct kids she made, because she seems to want to be a mother. These are Phantom and Lace. GMS seemingly doesnt give two damns about Phantom and abandonded them for Lace who they have unreasonable favoritism for.

[brisk finch]

And it is factually text that only shows up in the mister mushroom ending. When that text appeared in Hollow Knight, there was no intention of a Hollow Knight 2. This was plainly stated in interviews.

[spark valve]

the weavers and the conductors are basically doing the same shit

[cedar skiff]

therell be more hollow knight until team cherry decides theyre done. again i cant stress enough that ari had to put down the sketchbook at some point because he just had too much fun coming up with shit

[rocky smelt]

the weavers propped up the citadel though

[brisk finch]

Ye they def changed their mind XD I'm grateful

[cedar skiff]

i mean silksong aint hollow knight 2

[limpid summit]

Sorry wait I can be more specific
The Choir and the Weavers

[cedar skiff]

i think they likely meant a continuation of hallownests storyline

[brisk finch]

Their specific words were "more of that world" or something

They wanted somethign entirely new after working on HK

[cedar skiff]

ohhhh damn then

guess they changed their mind

[brisk finch]

But then... the Hornet DLC...

[limpid summit]

I mean I’d give the weavers a point for not doing whiteward

[cedar skiff]

i mean many creatives eventually fall into the trap of one big continuous world

worldbuilding is just too fucking fun

[uncut holly]

It goes

GMS arrives and rules
v
Creation of Citadel by Weavers and them ruling, they also deified themselves and styled themselves as gods, because the apple doesnt fall far from the tree
v
Then they rose up against the Weavers and the Conductors became in charge, they acted very similar to the Weavers.
v
The Conductors and others get concerned on their normal bug life span so they start injecting silk into themselves to live longer, this lets GMS manipulate them over many many years.

v
Then theres the game

[limpid summit]

That’s about right

[tawdry flare]

I would argue GMS doesn’t “rules”, Unn “rules” because she is awesome

[cedar skiff]

oh damn this is good

gms doesnt even do shit man

[uncut holly]

Oh GMS did alot back in the day

[limpid summit]

GMS is budget PK budget Rad

Basically budget Unn too

[lucid pasture]

there was an intent to make silksong though? im pretty sure and that was always supposed to be a sequel. they already said they have many dlcs plans for silksong, at least one of them for sure will have lore content, that works for a sequel !

[uncut holly]

What GMS did back in the day mostly constisted of them having a shoot out with every other civilization there. Its a bit iffy when the other civs fell though

[rocky smelt]

gms was still a pos pre haunting though fs

[brisk finch]

What. No?

[glossy badger]

What woke gms up tho

[brisk finch]

Silksong was absolutely not meant to be its own game

[uncut holly]

The music stopping

[brisk finch]

That was a huge change in development? Hello?

Ye it's getting dlc now, but not back then

[uncut holly]

The Citadel of Song is supposed to forever play music 24/7 or else GMS wakes up

[glossy badger]

Yeah the song stopped

[glossy badger]

But why

[lucid pasture]

i,literally did not say that. I said silksong was planned as a DLC since that scene existed. the to be continued was probably referring to that

[cedar skiff]

no ss just got too big

[uncut holly]

The song stopped when GMS took control of the bugs over many generations at some point, it just made them stop and then it snow balled from there

[lucid pasture]

bro even as a dlc silksong would still be a sequel thats what im saying..

[brisk finch]

No one is out there calling dlc a sequel

[cedar skiff]

not really

[cedar skiff]

do we know this or is this just speculation theory? genuinely curious

[uncut holly]

Something interesting is that GMS being in control of Pharloom doesnt really seem to be an apocalypse to the same level as the Radiance destroying Hallownest.

Speculation

However we know they didnt like other races

[glossy badger]

But how could Gms take control when she was put to sleep

[pale valve]

I think Silksong is a sequel but only largely because the protagonist's involvement in the last game is important to her role in this one

[lucid pasture]

you can easily say that about many games dlcs actually. it doesnt need to be a sequel exactly. Its just about it being a continuation.

[limpid summit]

Yeah 100%

[rocky smelt]

dialogue implies she was at fault for at least the fall of Khann and Karmelita

[brisk finch]

Silksong as it stands is a sequel because HK endings are directly referenced

[cedar skiff]

silksong is a sequel but it wasnt initially intended to be one

[limpid summit]

As FS said she lied to the Weavers and probably doted on Lace

[pale valve]

lines like "I've seen enough sacrifice, I've no love for the act" have zero weight without the context from the first game

[brisk finch]

You don't say to be continued for the next part of your game

[pale valve]

and all of Red Memory

[lucid pasture]

why not lol

[glossy badger]

And verdania

[brisk finch]

It's all the same package
Would they have edited the Mr Mushroom ending after Hornet DLC's release?

It didn't say To Be Continued after act 1

[rocky smelt]

that was more the citadel, no?

[limpid summit]

Lost Verdania was the citadel

[uncut holly]

The timeline where Civilizations fell is iffy

We know the Stick Bugs at most fell at the time of the Weavers in charge of the Citadel, because the Stick bugs started eatting people after Nyleth died. And the Weavers have a shrine deifying a Weaver who hated Stick Bugs where they pray to not be eatten by Stick Bugs.

Theres also the Green Dancer bugs who we know atleast died at the time of the Citadel being up, so either Weave Reign or Conductor Reign

[glossy badger]

It was both

[limpid summit]

What I think is the three main hearts must have been around the same time (pre Citadel) and the fourth, GP, is distinct

[cedar skiff]

im also confused on verdania because doesnt hornet refer to what happens as the princes getting caught up between pale being affairs

[brisk finch]

I really like bouncing off of enemies’ heads. Cause originally your guy could only attack left or right, and because we made all these flying enemies we were like, “Oh, we’re gonna have to be able to attack up and down.” And then we thought it would be fun if when you attack an enemy downwards in the air, you bounce off them. It’s a little touch, but it’s so much fun to bounce off things.
Praise be William. Imagine Silksong if you couldn't pogo in Hollow Knight

[uncut holly]

From what I know atleast we can only solidly place Stick Bugs, and Green Dancers on the timeline for a specific times it had to occur in

[lucid pasture]

maybe, maybe not, if they hadnt edited it would still works out because it would be talking about continuation to that ending that, whatever thats just semantics at this point honestly idgaf. i fully believe we will get a continuation in some form, though, whether its dlcs or full on sequel idk

[uncut holly]

Then theres the Stilkin, and The Craws who are still around modern day

[limpid summit]

Again... to see... this land abandoned... betrayed...
...And a throne I could not sit alone...

Hornet: You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... > Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[brisk finch]

Can you list a single example of this happening in similar circumstances

[limpid summit]

I guess I was wrong this probably places GP at the mercy of the Weavers AND GMS

[cedar skiff]

yeah i was talking about this

[uncut holly]

I seeee!!!!! Ok so that places that in GMS time

[cedar skiff]

okay so

[uncut holly]

This is the Green Dancers death

[cedar skiff]

gms definetly showed up in og pharloom and fucked shit up

[limpid summit]

Yeah this is pre Clover Dancer fight

[uncut holly]

So Green Dancers fell to GMS

[cedar skiff]

then the remaining pharloomers began worshipping weavers after gms was sealed

and eventaully more bugs came around and the weavers dipped

[glossy badger]

There's another line also mentioning the citadels involvement with verdania

[uncut holly]

Yeah well actually it was likely by force and mind control they worshipped them

[cedar skiff]

like not just bugs native to pharloom, other outsiders

[uncut holly]

In the Nameless Town Weavers hypnotized the inhabitants

[cedar skiff]

and those dudes likely were the largest contributor to he fanatic silk religion

[limpid summit]

But GP seems to hate the Citadel specifically

[uncut holly]

And lured them downward

[limpid summit]

Like the Citadel entity

So was the Citadel built as a ruling home for GMS even before it was a tomb

It went home tomb home (for the choir)

[uncut holly]

Maybe it was a home for her originally

[brisk finch]

I'm gonna say, yes

[uncut holly]

Though the First Shrine (Songclave) is probably when imprisonment happened

[cedar skiff]

if you really got into it you could likely timeline when parts of the citadel were built

the cradles architecture definetly makes it an early building

[uncut holly]

Cradle was probably first

[glossy badger]

Also this is khanns thread memory dialogue
"All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light..."

[uncut holly]

Yeaaaaah see this is why I thought that the Crabs where the last to fall

[cedar skiff]

cogwork core came after gms era because it has those silk powered cogwork robots, and it makes sense that theres that huge song mechanism to grant an audience with the divine because nobody is supposed to go up there. its a lock disguised as a false promise

for the pilgrims that started showing up towards the end of gms era

[uncut holly]

Ok so that really places things.

Ants
Crabs
Green Dancers
and Stick Bugs all died to GMS

[cedar skiff]

or more likely the weaver era too

[uncut holly]

If the Crabs are the last and they where standing against GMS, then that means all others died to GMS

[brisk finch]

The ants didn't quite go, their situation is so much more mixed compared to the rest

[uncut holly]

Also a quote from Shakra says that the Crabs control of coral made them equal power to the Citadel. Which i dunno how much coral power is gonna compare to what Weavers do but im inclined to trust their word

[cedar skiff]

the ants likely just recovered

[limpid summit]

The ants devolved into little groups after GMS tossed Karmelita out

[rocky smelt]

"Not I, warrior. For this place, my heart holds only loathing...[NPC]:The dancers... they were the last free act of my partner... Always hopeful. Always naive.[NPC]:His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould.[NPC]:So long, I dared not visit... Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin... Instead I wasted, a coward caged, too weak to witness his grace bound in parody so cruel.[Hornet]:Take some solace, tall bug. His soul is now free from that shell of iron, and the fate that befell your lands, this Citadel too has been claimed full by it."

This to me implies the Citadel was the main cause, GMS wasnt involved in making the robots, was she?

[cedar skiff]

they definetly were near dying out but their craftiness and lifestyle allowed them to recover

[lucid pasture]

no but thats because i dont remember any games having a to be continued screen at all if anything lol. theres genuine no point in discussing this tho its kinda stupid whatever i just believe Silksong will have either its story expanded a bit through DLCS or have a real sequel released.

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s what I’m wondering about

Either Hornet is just wrong (probably not)

[glossy badger]

Also was gms awake when the citadel was built

[limpid summit]

Or the Choir was involved with the Weavers and GMS earlier than we assume

[brisk finch]

I mean, I was never arguing dlc wouldn't expand the story? You just called my interpretation of mr mushroom's game reference talk stupid

Obv the dlc will expand things, that's what it's for, but dlc does not get a to be continued, so that's not what hk mushroom was for

[uncut holly]

It seems that when GMS arrived, she made the Weavers demanded absolute obedience from everyone else and we can kind of guess they probably started doing the type of nonsense they are doing right now. Because I doubt they got the haunting idea recently

[rocky smelt]

i think by the time the citadel is being built the weavers already dont like GMS

[cedar skiff]

okay maybe hornet isnt a reliable narrator

[uncut holly]

We could maybe assume that GMS was haunting and controlling people back in the early days

Just that they fought back

[cedar skiff]

can someone pull up the actual verdania/prince dialouge rather than just hornet assuming its a pale being that did that shit

like hornets just saiyng shit and were running with it

[lucid pasture]

yeah but i think they will be functionally bigger than what HK Dlcs does tho. i also think the to be continued shit kinda is there to hint at that. Its just that. Silksong would also originally be a way bigger DLC than the other "dlcs" hollow knight has which is my point. i shouldnt have said your view was stupid lol but yeah i disagree with it

[glossy badger]

Hornet is a reliable narrator

[uncut holly]

At some point, GMS(Or Weavers) kills Nyleth, the Stick Bugs start eatting people. They attack and scatter the ants. The Green Dancers are desperate and come to the Weavers to make a deal, but get backstabbed. Then its just the Crabs, and somehow their entire land dried up.

[rocky smelt]

which part of the dialogue, i pulled up what he says when u find him at the cogwork dancers

[limpid summit]

She might be treating the Weavers as an extension of GMS when she talks about being trapped under a pale being

[cedar skiff]

i dont think she exactly had the means to control back in the day. she made phantom, was pissed she didnt have full control over it, made lace out of pure silk. its stated that the haunting was made easy because the bugs had put silk into themselves

[tawdry flare]

The water was probably sent to/through Putrified Ducts

[uncut holly]

It seems like the Crabs winded up being put in the position of being the saviors to all others

[cedar skiff]

i dont know anything that implies it was gms who was involved with verdania. were kinda just assuming it rn because hornet said so

[uncut holly]

Seemingly though GMS cannot control Weavers and probably cant control Lace or Phantom

[lucid pasture]

That hornet dislogue doesnt exactly says Pale being did that, she says "youre caught beneath a pale being, your only options were either destruction or submission" something like that. it doesnt necessarily mean GMS did it herself, but that the end was somewhat inevitable so long as GMS was there.

[glossy badger]

Yeah the citadel was steam powered

[cedar skiff]

okay maybe

[uncut holly]

It is steam... So is it implied then that maybe the Citadel absorbed the Coral Caves water for power?

[rocky smelt]

"Again... to see... this land abandoned... betrayed...[NPC]:...And a throne I could not sit alone...[Hornet]:You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[viscid ridge]

I wanted to go check an easter egg where you could go under trobbios stage, but i dont seem to be able to, did my brain make it up?

[uncut holly]

I mean the only person we know has a Pale Light is GMS

[cedar skiff]

she could control lace though. what i speculate is the reason lace is able to rebel is because gms starts pupeteering millions of other corpses and that kinda loosens up her hold over lace

[rocky smelt]

this is the only dialogue relating to verdania and GMS specifically

[uncut holly]

Their actually deliberately said to have a Pale Light a few times i think

[brisk finch]

Leave me be. This kingdom’s collapse has come. Better I stay here to accept it.To die within a cage... A fitting finale for this shell, and a well deserved fate for these cursed lands.As you wish, prisoner.
Leave me be, traveller. Better I accept this kingdom’s cruelty than rage helpless against it.To waste in a cell, forgotten. ‘Tis no worse a fate than the Haunting that binds Pharloom’s many fragile minds.As you wish, prisoner.
Our capital, built grand... The seat of our sovereignty... slipped from my mind...Why does it fade? Why can I not recall that sacred place?
I’d hoped to never step these hateful halls, yet here I stand, as all those hapless bugs before.You’ve journeyed far from that damp cell, tall bug. If you would oppose the minions of this Citadel, you have my respect.Hmph. Then we share a rare stance, warrior. Few others seem possessed of will enough to resist.So many weak minds, drawn up and strung, in love with the great golden leech atop their lands.
Warrior... I heard your approach. Why do you come? Surely you’ve no desire to see these long collapsed caves?The way was open, sir. I merely followed the path through. Am I correct to guess you were once a resident of these borderlands?Aye... and glorious they were, in their time. Pharloom’s end approaches, but my caves, these caves, fell to fate long before. Of that fair land, I am the last... Now to remain till the end, and remember the splendour that was...
Again... to see... this land abandoned... betrayed......And a throne I could not sit alone...You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[viscid ridge]

Maybe, it seems like the citidel used up verdania and the krust kingdoms water

[brisk finch]

(that does have some of hornet's text, everything he says that seems slightly relevant)

[uncut holly]

Maybe we dont know how the Coral Caves where dried up but thats how the Crabs died, they couldnt be physically overpowered

Maybe they got dried up from the Citadel?

[spark valve]

yes this is what it means

gms was asleep when verdania fell

[brisk finch]

Betrayed, is what gets me

[viscid ridge]

Same with verdania, its implied that tge kingdom died of thirst instead of a physical battle or takeover

[brisk finch]

Betrayed by whom

[uncut holly]

Why do you think it was post GMS that Verdania fell?

[cedar skiff]

theres contradicting dialogue

[rocky smelt]

green prince dialogue in his cell and in the citadel imply his lands were still intact to some degree when the citadel was fully buillt, atp GMS mustve been asleep

[spark valve]

because of the citadel

[glossy badger]

What's this? That's an
unexpected heart you're holding, Old One...
We can guess to its source, though
we'd believed it long gone from these lands.
The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I
was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished. A stunning sight.
Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.

[uncut holly]

I see

[spark valve]

and the system to keep her caged

[uncut holly]

It does seem that all civilizations atleast died either between GMS and the Weavers age

They might be spaced differently

[cedar skiff]

kay it guess it just depends how you interpret hornets wording

[rocky smelt]

could hornet not just be referring to the fact that the citadel existing in the first place is because of GMS and her nature

[cedar skiff]

it could very well have been the citadel that nuked verdania because they didnt want to worship the sleeping pale being

[cedar skiff]

yes maybe!

[rocky smelt]

that imo makes the most sense and fits all the hints we have

[cedar skiff]

so it was the citadel

making it gms fault indirectly

[brisk finch]

I feel like this is the sort of thing where a random dlc is going to add one line to a relic that's actually going to clear it up
but for now, the Citadel itself being the cause seems sensical

[lucid pasture]

i think its betrayed because of how citadel didnt uphold their part of the treat

[glossy badger]

Its very heavily suggested that grandmother silks started all of this and then citadel continued

[uncut holly]

They say lost to that Pale Monarch?

Yeah GMS i feel did start it

[cedar skiff]

or maybe were missing the random ass relics

[glossy badger]

I believe it was a slow decline of the kingdoms rather than quickly stomping it

[cedar skiff]

quick reread all the weaver effigies!!!

[brisk finch]

Big Mama-> Weavers -> Citadel with Weavers (unseen)-> Big Mama Citadel (unseen)-> Citadel without explicit godly influence (we get glimpses of this)-> In Game Citadel

That's how I see the order, which means that "Citadel" can mean a lot

[cedar skiff]

i mean it makes sense that gms started trampling over the lands, the weavers continued, and the citadel bugs gave it the final blow

[uncut holly]

Im pretty sure the Pilgrims did deliberately worship the Citadel itself. Or atleast the Citadel is the thing they gave it for a name.

[brisk finch]

They worship the implication of being capable of joining a higher social caste

[cedar skiff]

yeah the pilgrims seem to place more towards the latter part of the timeline at the end when everything became blurred together

[uncut holly]

The Pilgrims that arrive to Songclave say "So the Citadel has decided to let me live a little longer, to what greater purpose I dont know." or something roughly to that

[cedar skiff]

the citadel bugs worshipped silk itself

[glossy badger]

Yeah that's how I view it

[cedar skiff]

earlier bugs worshipped the weavers

were making progress guys

[uncut holly]

Besides Abyss Weavenest Atla might be the oldest place

Correct me if im wrong

[spark valve]

gms is never in control of the citadel until the haunting that's very recent

[cedar skiff]

yeah likely

[uncut holly]

Maybe Fae Peak could also be old

[brisk finch]

Nah, I think she was the thing the Weavers fled from, so they left the Citadel to, essentially, her for a bit

[spark valve]

coral tower is older, every ant location is older

[spark valve]

no the weavers that fled fled before the citadel was built

[uncut holly]

Supposedly the Weavers tried to reach the counsel of Faylon. Also Faylon might be a bit more powerful than given credit you cant read their mind just like Greyroot.

[spark valve]

some fled, some stayed and trapped gms

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah the other civs

We know that the Weavers liked to have Faylons counsel on things, and the Mask Maker comments on how they set all this up just to get the counsel of Faylon

[brisk finch]

From what?

[rocky smelt]

who is faylon? is that the bird thing i thought it was called a fayforn

[uncut holly]

The giant snow yeti moth on top of the snowy mountain

[spark valve]

from gms
when she was awake

[cedar skiff]

i dont think they fled

they just got fed up

[spark valve]

gms didn't wake up and then go back to sleep

[cedar skiff]

there was no reason for them to flee

[lucid pasture]

yk pharlooms folly kinda seems to imply that they really made GMS be hidden and kinda used GMS powrrs a bit to maintain citadel itself

[spark valve]

freedom

[cedar skiff]

gms had no control over them. thats one of her driving points

[uncut holly]

I thought Fayforn was the species Faylon was?

[ember river]

I don't think that's as meaningful as you make it up to be

[spark valve]

Spawn of those who dared to flee. She has found her way home... at last.

[uncut holly]

I mean you can read the thoughts of alot of things

[rocky smelt]

where is it called faylon in game? Cant find anything abt it in the text

[uncut holly]

I might be mis remembering the name

Im actually not sure where the name of "Faylon" is

[limpid summit]

Faydiance

[brisk finch]

Protective garb lined with the soft down of a Fayforn and sewn through with flexible spines.

[uncut holly]

Its probably somewhere i just cant remember it

[brisk finch]

INV_DESC_DRESS_DJ

The only non Mount Fay reference to "fay"

that I can find

[limpid summit]

That’s the Cloak desc

[cedar skiff]

a fayforn

[ember river]

The thing that gives you the Faydown's cloak is the Fayforn

[cedar skiff]

damn thats a whole ass species

[brisk finch]

Yes, no Faylon

[uncut holly]

Yeah Fayforn is what species they are

[rocky smelt]

I think its just Fayforn as of rn we dont have an individual name

[limpid summit]

Where does she get the flexible spines

[brisk finch]

"Faylon" doesn't appear

[uncut holly]

The mountain might have been named after them as a Fayforn

[brisk finch]

That's from the float

I think?

[limpid summit]

I guess the fayforn just gives her the down and she crafts it offscreen

[lucid pasture]

specifically

They forget your heart, bound in slumber and servitude,

When you wake they shall see your truth,

A beast's nature bare to all.

this seems to be quite clearly about GMS

[limpid summit]

That’s pretty funny

[ember river]

i'd say it's the other way around

[brisk finch]

Written by a conductor, so ye, they may have known

[ember river]

Fayforn as a creature from mount fay

[cedar skiff]

crackpot theory: maybe fayforns used to be a natural predator of spiders (before gms "made" them weavers) and thats where their fear/respect comes from

[uncut holly]

They named it Fae mountain and they named then Fayforn because the mountain

[cedar skiff]

also the spiders that turned weavers were surely native to pharloom right

[ember river]

That's by a conductor, they were pretty much running the joint after the weavers fled

[uncut holly]

Supposedly theres others, it might be how theres other Wyrms though where their so obscure we will never see them

[ember river]

No reason why they shouldn't be

[lucid pasture]

yeah what i find most interesting is the idea that it was bound in servitude, kind aimplying they were abusing GMS powers a bit?

[ember river]

Bardoon says they are extinct

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[limpid summit]

Do we think Sprintmaster is based on a younger Swift or is the Sprintmaster a title

[brisk finch]

Well, if GSM is Silk, then the Whiteward experiments were abusing her, I suppose? Or at least using her powers

[limpid summit]

That moves around

[uncut holly]

Im pretty sure Conductor Romino is refering to the idea of the Citadel, the people didnt know what they where worshipping. Then they figured it out with a rude awakening

Oh actually the Sprint Master might be related to the Swift charm from Hollow Knight, they do look similar

Maybe their in the same league somehow

[brisk finch]

It's called sprintmaster XD

[ember river]

The sprintmaster looks more like the dashmaster charm than the actual sprintmaster charm

[uncut holly]

Ah i see

[ember river]

Though dashmaster looks like sans too

And there's a statue of the dashmaster too

[ember river]

That's the sprintmaster

[brisk finch]

This was Dashmaster

[cedar skiff]

i think things like sprintmaster snail shaman etc are just mantles

[brisk finch]

Yes?

[cedar skiff]

not a specific species

[uncut holly]

What is the guys name in game again?

[limpid summit]

Snail shaman is the name of the species though right

We don’t see non shaman snails

[ember river]

Swift looks more like the dashmaster one

[limpid summit]

Swift is his name

[brisk finch]

Sprintmaster Swift

[uncut holly]

We do see Nuu who according to the Conch inspection wears a hard shell.

[cedar skiff]

well they arent actual snails

[ember river]

Sprintmaster Swift
Not sure where you got the idea of a "swift charm"

[uncut holly]

They are different than Snail Shamans though

[brisk finch]

Yeah, but I pointed out it's not called Swift
it's called Sprintmaster, here';s a visual

[ember river]

The snail shamans are actual snails

[uncut holly]

We have Sprint and Dash i cant remember them

[cedar skiff]

i think its just a closed family tree of some sort of bugs that put on snail shells and start talking crazy

are they actually???

[ember river]

Yes

[brisk finch]

Sprintmaster and Dashmaster, ay. Just send the pictures

[limpid summit]

They’re snails cause the game says they’re snails

[cedar skiff]

damn whats the ingame evidence for that

[limpid summit]

Even though they don’t look like snails irl

[cedar skiff]

not that i dont believe you im just hitting myself rn for missing it

[lucid pasture]

yes its about that, but "they forget your heart, bound in slumber and servitude" seems to imply the GMS was being made to "serve" if we do interpret the poem being about GMS entirely. It could also just be about how citadel was abusivr towards workers though maybe lol

[ember river]

"Snail shamans"
"Actually I don't think they are snails"

[brisk finch]

The twist in Skong is that they were hiding their snail-ness with cloaks and stuff

[ember river]

This

[cedar skiff]

damn

[brisk finch]

Or just being an unfriendly hermit telling us to go away XD that worked too

[glossy badger]

Nuu is a higher being fr

[uncut holly]

I mean GMS was kept asleep with the song, so thats slumber, the servitude maybe the fact they where using silk?

[cedar skiff]

i always just thought the snail shell was just meaningful to them.. not like.. part of their body

[uncut holly]

Did they get their silk from GMS

[ember river]

He hid the shell with the bell

[cedar skiff]

not that that changes much but cool i suppose

[ember river]

It's like saying mr mushroom isn't a mushroom

[brisk finch]

So, question: Do we consider the snails to be the "void cult" stuff mentioned on the early maps
Or does that honor go to the steel soul only stuff?
Because if they are, I wonder how the hermit crab stuff played into that shellfish mess

[lucid pasture]

thats a possibility but its kinda interesting to imagine that they were "forcefully" extracting silk from her

[cedar skiff]

well hes more explicitly mushroom looking tbf

[glossy badger]

Would be funny if he wasn't

[brisk finch]

tbf you could convince me he's not, i mean
look at him

[uncut holly]

I mean Nuu is a snail, or slug like creature they might be a different type of snail to the Snail Shamans and definitely a different creature. They both are based on Snails though

[brisk finch]

he flies

[cedar skiff]

the snail shamans do have anatomy closer to a bug shrug

[glossy badger]

Exactly

[lucid pasture]

snails are bugs??

lol

[ember river]

He is a shroom, shrooms fly

How do they get people high otherwise

[brisk finch]

[rocky smelt]

they definitely make multiple types of bugs based on the same irl bug, like gruzzers and the slab guards

[limpid summit]

They see your beauty, so frail and fine,
Pilgrims come to the Citadel and see the silk, how it powers everything
They see your peace, woven of faith and toil,
Citadel is oppressive ofc but outwardly peaceful, at the expense of Underworks stuff etc
They forget your heart, bound in slumber and servitude,
This is totally GMS - her silk provides the foundation for the Citadel, this might have even been written after Whiteward experiments began
When you wake they shall see your truth,
A beast's nature bare to all.

[ember river]

Also I think the mind dialogue of mr mushroom was worse than the hallownest one

[limpid summit]

Nuu and Unn are sluglike to us but they don’t have to be snails or slugs in HK

[uncut holly]

I think the original thought for that the Snail Shamans might be made of Void comes from that Snail Shaman stuck in a crystal in the original Hollow Knight, how you can break it and they turn into black particles and go into you

[lucid pasture]

yeah thats how i mostly interpreted it too. BUT i think idea of GMS being made to "serve" is kinda new to me

[ember river]

I feel like Unn is actually a slug

Unn and Nuu being related would be so funny though

[ember river]

I mean she was exploited for her silk while asleep

[lucid pasture]

yes but i didnt really know that really happened lol

[uncut holly]

We know the Snail Shamans as they where in Pharloom probably are really really old, Pharloom and GMS began way before the Weavers arrived in Hallownest which was before the Pale King.

Snail Shamans are likely a phenomena that has been around forever

[ember river]

Where is it stated that they have lived for that long?

[uncut holly]

Well no but they have lineages

You can find the ancestor site for the crest in their chapel

They might pass on their knowledge but they definitely have ancestors

[lucid pasture]

ruined chapel kinda looks like a weavernest like building byt maybe im crazy

[uncut holly]

I think its a Snail Chapel

You can see swirls on the pottery

[cedar skiff]

the snail shamans took property right next to the weavers damn man

[lucid pasture]

could be also. Those black materials just kinda look similar to the way the weavernests are

[uncut holly]

They probably where there before the Weavers they have a long line of Ancestry

[lucid pasture]

maybe its just because they are dated similarly though

[uncut holly]

We can see apparently their Ancestors are buried inside of that Chapel in the secret back room with the crest

[cedar skiff]

yeah why is the moss grotto free of predators

[limpid summit]

I think Unn and Nuu are related but it’s genuinely just headcanon based on their names and appearance they don’t have any similarities

[cedar skiff]

cause some crazy ass folk settle down there

[uncut holly]

Maybe its just good ground to make things in

I mean Moss Grottos a paradise if you can eat the moss

[limpid summit]

Nuu could easily have been a completely different bug she’s just so unique

[brisk finch]

So, fun fact: the chapel maid is called BB_Caretaker in the files
And also fun fact, I did not notice this dialogue originally
Cursed: "Head quick for that vein of bells, and find my uncle hidden there. If anyone’s able to point you to a cure for that thing twisting within your shell, it’ll be him."

[lucid pasture]

lol

[brisk finch]

that's the Hermit
They just... acknowledge it
ye no wonder they assumed Hornet understood the full plan, they were not hiding

[limpid summit]

Maybe that’s part of it you get this sort of pushover nonaggressive HB with a daughter that just wants to loot corpses and suck blood

[limpid summit]

Mfs were just ITCHING to summon void

[cedar skiff]

i did the twisted child questline and still wasnt able to clock they were snail shamans

even with it being waved int my face

[brisk finch]

Mood. It's so funny

[uncut holly]

Sadly all the Snail Shamans are dead at the end of the game, sacrificed for Pharloom, and so their lineage stops

[limpid summit]

I didn’t clock it until the caretaker dialogue pre GMS

[cedar skiff]

like i just groaned once i realised how fucking obvious it was

masterful gambit team cherry

[brisk finch]

Genuinely the funniest way TC could've done it

[uncut holly]

I mean they where pretty upset that you took their ancestral knowledge but theyd assume you could use anything you could get

[brisk finch]

OH OF COURSE, THEIR BACKS
DUH
The shamans: wait you didnt know the plan? but you agreed?
me, not hornet: YE I KNOW THIS IS ON ME

[cedar skiff]

its not like the snail shamans plan was super evil it was just kind of flawed and they didnt inform hornet enough

if not for laces involvement whos to say it wouldnt have worked

[brisk finch]

They did not expect GSM to resist this hard

[cedar skiff]

yeah messing with the void is stupid as fuck but they really didnt have any other option

[ember river]

Yeah the family thing was a dead giveaway once I heard it during silk&soul

[brisk finch]

I'd almost put them (and Hornet 😉 ) on par with the PK
Shit plan, but good intentions and it was never meant to go like this

[ember river]

It would have worked

[cedar skiff]

i like how hornet takes the blame and doesnt even let it out on them

[ember river]

I think that's pretty made up

Most of the stuff in there isn't particularly well established chronologically

[brisk finch]

Yeah like, as an outsider I'm not nearly as hard on Hornet
but as the one responsible, there really is no other proper response

[ember river]

They do sacrifice themselves helping her

They clearly didn't expect such bad an outcome, probably just destroy the citadel

[cedar skiff]

well yeah but hornet doesnt make excuses, just like that part abt her character

[ember river]

Hornet was completely oblivious to that and in fact resisted her impulse to absorb GMS and become a god

[brisk finch]

If the plan had worked, they could just sit back and be smug about how the void worship totes worked, guys
Ye sure the Citadel got blown up, but they make you pay for benches, so will anyone truly mourn>

[cedar skiff]

also hornet doesnt really respect sacrifice

[brisk finch]

But then, act 3 happened

[uncut holly]

I think the timeline is good, the only thing is you missed the White Ward. People when the Weavers lost power tried to use Silk to give themself immortality extending their lives. This continued for a very very long time where you had unnaturally long lived bugs, then GMS eventually took control of them.

[brisk finch]

She should have asked by all accounts, tho, and says as much herself

[lucid pasture]

its kinda cool how she does that because she refuses to sacrifice herself in quite a big part

[cedar skiff]

id be more inclined to see this viable if it included the creation of phantom and lace

[ember river]

Yeah she definetely should have

[ember river]

She didn't plan to die but was surprised by the fact that they just summoned the void

[brisk finch]

I love Hornet's characterization in this
perfect balance between skilled badass and Oh Shit I Messed Up

[ember river]

She tells Lace as much

[uncut holly]

The only Civs fully intact at the time of the game is The Craws and the Stilkin. Technically the Flies of the Slab are also alright aswell, they never got haunted.

[cedar skiff]

i like that hornet by all means is an incredibly wise character due to her long lifespan but still has room for a charater arc, she isnt flawless

god i love that she just straight up fears the void

[hexed stump]

did we find any reason for ||why the knight comes and saves hornet and lace?||

[ember river]

That's pretty logical

[uncut holly]

The Pinstresses, and The Snails where also around, and went into hiding.

[lucid pasture]

yes, love

[hexed stump]

why ||lace?||

[ember river]

Because it found hornet

And is in control of void

[cedar skiff]

even though she quite literally grew up amongst void she is still frightened by it

[lucid pasture]

i mean because she was with hornet lol

[ember river]

You don't have to spoiler things by the way

[lucid pasture]

yeah

[hexed stump]

oh we dont? great.

[hexed stump]

oh replied the wrong one

[ember river]

She does fear the void, not just them

[cedar skiff]

it saw hornet holding lace

[ember river]

That's just weird biology

[limpid summit]

She was there too

[cedar skiff]

yeah i just thought this bit of dialogue was nice ^_^

[uncut holly]

I mean the Jellyfish werent bugs either.

[lucid pasture]

why,would the knight NOT save lace at that situation if he was saving hornet anyways lol

[uncut holly]

Their just super simplistic organisms

[ember river]

She also acts completely horrified and worried when talking to the shamans and whenever she mentions the void

Also the wingsmould notes

[uncut holly]

I mean Hornet did live in Deepnest

[brisk finch]

Hornet has seen the void at its worst from a scientific perspective
And doesn't yet realise during the game that her little sibling does care
She knew the vessels weren't fully hollow by the beginning of Silksong, but "will save me for very little/no gain" wasn't on the table

[uncut holly]

Probably a bit desensitized

[cedar skiff]

its not just the fact that hornet in general seems a pretty confident and fearless character, she also grew up alongside void beings, yet she still fears it. its nice characterization

[ember river]

I don't think she even was aware that the shades were still alive

For all she knew the radiance was vanquished, the knight had a split skull left as its only remnant, and the hollow knight was likely absent as well

[cedar skiff]

i think its much easier to place the bitter attitude hornet has towards the knight in hk now

she was just lowkey scared

[brisk finch]

Exactly. She knew they could feel in life
But "the void has my conscious siblings in it and in control" is new

[ember river]

I don't think that was fear as much as it was despise for what they were and what they represented

[brisk finch]

Godhome is even funnier, because then stuff just... fixes itself for no reason

[ember river]

Which is why her being sympathetic towards Lace shows evolution

[brisk finch]

She sees little ghost wander around and suddenly the hollow knight is awake and... fine? The Radiance is gone????

[cedar skiff]

i guess

yeah i was gonna say i think in general hornet was worn out from her time guarding hallownet

[uncut holly]

We dont know why the Snail Shamans in Hollow Knight where bound to their Ancestral Mounds. But its possible seeing the extent they have to mess things up in this game, that it could have been the Pale King even though there is no evidence just speculation.

[ember river]

All vessels except the knight and the hollow knight (maybe lost kin) never truly managed to control the void within

[brisk finch]

PK's good decision record is actually pretty good glances at wormways

[cedar skiff]

its difficult to notice but i think she does experience quite a turnaround during her journey in silksong. shes a pretty difficult character to read all things considered

[brisk finch]

So I wouldn't be surprised

"stay in your lane your worship item of choice will cause an apocalypse"

[ember river]

I doubt the pale king cared about shamans

[uncut holly]

Yeah we could also guess that the Pale King probably had something to do with the taboo with Lifeblood seeing how bad it is

[brisk finch]

She grows
her reasoning for not leaving goes from
"id be hunted" to "i have to help them :(("

[ember river]

I also think people naturally realized it was infectious mutagen

[uncut holly]

If someone where to set a taboo it would probably be the king

Maybe

[ember river]

Bringing the pale king into everything sounds like shit writing honestly

[uncut holly]

We dont have any way of know

[cedar skiff]

i guess then this line has a hint of bitterness to it

[uncut holly]

Why hes the king?

[timber pond]

Yeah ahe does. At the start of the journey she dosent really care about pharloom and just wants to know why she was brought there. By the end she feels obligated to its people

[uncut holly]

Pale King writes the laws

[ember river]

Because he's extremely powerful

[cedar skiff]

and damn i love it

[ember river]

Most kings didn't write most laws, they had legislators for that

[limpid summit]

I always saw it as consoling

[ember river]

And the pale king didn't rule alone either

[summer estuary]

that line became legendary or mythical to me. It is the most iconic voice line in a game for me now XD

[uncut holly]

I mean yeah maybe City of Tears is a big place it could have been other people.

[limpid summit]

“Yeah I got bros with crazy lives”

[ember river]

He had an army, he had trusted champions, he had ministers and servants, he had what are presumed to be trusted advisors

[uncut holly]

They probably outlawed the Lifeblood because of this though. The snail shamans where bound to their mounds and we dont know much as to why

[quick mantle]

can someone give me a short rundown on the cogwork dancers / green prince lore

[ember river]

Like Lurien and Monomon

[cedar skiff]

gay

[brisk finch]

I cannot believe how hard Skong vindicated the lifeblood tabboo

[uncut holly]

Hollow Knight Snail Shamans specifically cant leave

[brisk finch]

Makes me wonder about that tower TC cut

[cedar skiff]

sorry all jokes aside someone here could likely give a good rundown

its kind of a little complicated/in the air

at least in the details

[limpid summit]

They ruled Verdania together as lovers
The Citadel threatened them, GP lover went to go and negotiate, they split his soul in two and animated the dancers
They then razed Verdania

[lucid pasture]

i think it would have been something similar to the wormways tbh

[quick mantle]

isee ty

[uncut holly]

I wanna know more about the Pinstresses, the other ancient group in Pharloom other than the Snail Shamans. We see two alive in game and 1 dead in Putrified Ducts while making a maggot immunity charm

[lucid pasture]

yes

[brisk finch]

Would've been close to the song eater too...

[elfin berry]

So masks are common place in multiple kingdoms apparently. Is there a confirmed purpose for the masks?

[cedar skiff]

when i first ran into the wormways i left as fast as i saw those damn worms

i personally think theyre remaints of weavers

as in they made them/put them there

in pharloom

[uncut holly]

Hey whats this of?

[cedar skiff]

if you mean like, actual masks, not the gampleay ones

[cedar skiff]

I Dont Even Know

[brisk finch]

We have the acmi map pictures

[ember river]

Dual princes of Verdania, and lovers.
At some point, the citadel before Silk's awakening and the haunting pressured Verdania for whatever reason, and Green Prince's lover sacrificed himself in an agreement to stop them.
They turned him into the Cogwork Dancers using his soul and bodies made in his image, and then the story is a bit blurry.
Some believe the Citadel still went through with destroying Verdania, I personally think it was a cavein or some other natural disaster, but Green Prince ended in jail, Verdania utterly destroyed, his lover turned into two machines, and the rest is history

[summer estuary]

do u guys think the lines at the top of the ss path of pain is telling that pharloom was sweet and it's friends were seduced by it?

[cedar skiff]

interesting that the butterfly field lace 2 arena turned to.. roses..

[uncut holly]

Seems the map used to be much smaller likely for DLC purposes

[ember river]

What destroyed verdania isn't that clear through dialogue, though it is indeed implied that it was the citadel

[limpid summit]

“Butterfly room”

[ember river]

Which is odd since everything is fallen rock and not really citadel structures or pollution

[brisk finch]

The redditor said this was the first map, but the date says 2018
there's 2017 maps

[cedar skiff]

void cult Okay Damn

[brisk finch]

THATS WHAT I KEEP SAYING LOL

[cedar skiff]

i can see why that shit was cut. was worried team cherry might be too straight forward

[brisk finch]

I need to know if that's the snails or the steel soul stuff
Cause skong's steel soul is wild

[cedar skiff]

#NOTMYTEAMCHERRY

[uncut holly]

The butterfly field where Trobbio is just flying amongst his people

[limpid summit]

Probably Snails

[ember river]

@quick mantle also bonus lore, the cogwork dancers were the basis for turning bugs into robots by using their soul, that's why the architects are cogwork constructs and the conductors were planning on becoming machines as well

[limpid summit]

I think the masters are something else entirely

[brisk finch]

I;m talking about the void monster

[uncut holly]

Million tiny butterflies, and then just full size Trobbio

[brisk finch]

With the vessel masks that gets summoned

[limpid summit]

This is true but the conductors weren’t planning on becoming machines

[brisk finch]

Steel Soul is wild y'all, gets its own quest

[left oyster]

perchance

[limpid summit]

They just wanted to put silk in their bodies

[limpid summit]

Oh the savior

[topaz estuary]

So glad the lore allows for a gun

[quick mantle]

cool to know ty

[uncut holly]

It seems like becoming a machine is a very uncomfortable thing.

[brisk finch]

Summoned Saviour

[cedar skiff]

i was gonna make a reference with verdania and lulusia

[lucid pasture]

to me its like they changed idea from lifeblood spire to wormways and moved it to the left. also its interesting how much similar this map is tbh like the hot air vents there is what would be the vents in fsr fields lol

[brisk finch]

(the exclusive bossfight)

[left oyster]

weaver railgun go pew

[brisk finch]

so fun fact

I don't thinkl so!

[uncut holly]

We know from journal entry of the Underworks robots that they where made with no comprehension beyond their task until they rust

[brisk finch]

The alchemist asks for muckblood and mossblood in the files

For his plasmium

[ember river]

They already were

But I think Mizello dying was a waking call for them so they sought an alternate way of immortality

It seems that it wasn't long before the Haunting and their demise since it is the last edict of the conductors

There is no reason to believe they weren't planning to go through with it, architects already did it

And it worked fine

[flat hearth]

This old concept art or somethin?

[lucid pasture]

yeah
it si like they tuned down their og idea either because they preferred this wormways better or they thought lifeblood spire would be too much work lol

[brisk finch]

The muckblood... Please, dear Assistant. Plasmium demands its final challenge.Use the Phial... Strike deep. Suck that foul liquid from the swamp things’ shells... For your forever...
Goooooood. That’s it Assistant... My dear Assistant.The muckblood... From the swamps beside the sea. Vile, impure... necessary, for great discovery...To become that great discovery.The Needle Phial. Use it. Extract the blood... Bring it. I must ingest that crudest liquid life...
Good! Good! Take again my Needle Phial. Find the moss creatures, any will do, ready the Phial and stick them through to extract their mossblood.This is an easy task and you’ll find little challenge, so the compensation shall only be rosaries. But! Think of the true reward! Understanding! For wonderous Plasmium, every small step is worth taking.
Excellent! With the mossblood to aid my Plasmium research the speed of discoveries shall greatly increase.You are proving a perfectly adequate assistant! Far better than the last lout, whatever his name was.

[uncut holly]

Snail Shamans might actually die of old age, because we have the moss snail shaman who is huge

and very dead

[limpid summit]

Mizello dying was because of that way

He was likely experimented on in whiteward

[brisk finch]

There's a screen at the acmi exhibit with a ton of maps during development. someone was kind enough to take pictures and post them to reddit.

[lucid pasture]

its kinda similar to what we do in the present game but it does seem a larger scale

[ember river]

He was probably receiving regular silk surgeries to increase his lifespan

[flat hearth]

Nice

[brisk finch]

Ay

[uncut holly]

I mean it would make sense if the corpse of the Conductor is Mizello

[ember river]

And at one point his body couldn't take it anymore

[flat hearth]

Maybe DLC?

[ember river]

It most definetely is

Would be kinda weird if it wasn't

[brisk finch]

That's what I find interesting, because Lifeblood was clearly the older idea? So does this mean they merged two concepts (Lifeblood Stuff and Alchemist Stuff)?

[limpid summit]

Yeah the unraveled conductor has gotta be Mizello

[ember river]

The thing is conductors were seeking a way to achieve immortality and they realized normal silk infusions weren't working

[flat hearth]

That's the one we fight at the bottom of that pit right?

[ember river]

So they chose to turn into machines once they figured out it worked

[ember river]

yes

[brisk finch]

Tormented will of countless husks made manifest in a pit of Silk dregs.
The souls of so many bugs, obsessed with Silk, consumed by it. Their pain shall forever remain in that pit. Even I do not possess strength enough to cleanse it.

[uncut holly]

Do we have any more lore on the Pinstresses other than that the Citadel stole their secrets and technics and then used it on them

[cedar skiff]

the irony of you needing to collect songs to advance to see gms when thats the thing keeping her asleep

[uncut holly]

They are kinda Pharlooms nail masters, but they seem to be a long generational thing like the Snail Shamans

[cedar skiff]

when im in a false promises competititon and my opponent is the citadel

[ember river]

Well, yes, technically the unravelled isn't mizello, but the cloak is most definetely his

And his will is probably floating around

[brisk finch]

I do agree there

[ember river]

Inside it

[brisk finch]

I can't find anything that isn't plainly stated in her quest+the seamstress convo

[primal vessel]

how could we save lace from the void and not garmond?

[covert tusk]

Khan’s victory achievement being Tyrant feels really interesting imo, gonna have to do a bit more research cuz it just popped into my head rn but describing him as a Tyrant specifically, in comparison especially to others

[lucid pasture]

idk lace is not a real bug

[brisk finch]

Lace is silk, Garmond is a man/bug

[frozen shell]

Man I think I only have like 2 bosses left

[primal vessel]

ah i see

[trim egret]

Hey, just found a relic mentioning this guy. Who is he?

[covert tusk]

Lace has organs or anything really that could be affected, just her body being controlled and overwhelmed
Garmond was physically worn down until his body was eroded by the void

[rocky smelt]

dont believe the GMS propaganda

[ember river]

Mizello?

There's a relic mentioning him?

[trim egret]

Yes

[frozen shell]

Sure can't wait for the final boss in the pantheon of Pharloom to be Found Lace

[lucid pasture]

also i think that like

[ember river]

which one? I haven't heard of it

Oh wait, right the cylinder

[brisk finch]

I so desperately want it to be either a duo fight of Lace and GSM
or the Knight/void/whatever
I want to spar with my sibling :((

[ember river]

Yeah that was his last surgery, the one that cost him his life

[lucid pasture]

it could be argued garmond was infected by the haunting not only the void

[frozen shell]

I want a shade lord fight

[ember river]

You aren't fighting void given focus, much less winning

[golden olive]

wait a minute, “lost kin”, “lost lace”

[lucid pasture]

so i think that it is indeed a different situation from silk bc silk wouldnt really be affected bybhaunting probably lol

[ember river]

Different kinds of lost but yeah

[golden olive]

lost kin is void confirmed?

[ember river]

Lost kin is indeed void

[frozen shell]

YOU'RE GETTING VOID MOTHER SILK!

[ember river]

But it's lost since it's controlled by the light

[brisk finch]

friendly spar

[ember river]

Not even then

[frozen shell]

But like a spar could be interesting

[ember river]

That thing killed the Radiance easily

It can just swat you away

[trim egret]

Bro, you made me go back to home for nothing😂

[golden olive]

i think shade lord gets solod by everbloom ngl

[ember river]

Sorry, I thought you meant a choral commandment or something

And getting more conductor lore would be funny

[zinc dagger]

Hey guys, I have this theory that's both HK and SS, do I and can I show it here?

[brisk finch]

I mean, does it? The Everbloom is only temporary

[ember river]

yes

[ember river]

I don't think the knight dies in the flower ending, it is the void at that point

[frozen shell]

the everbloom could like weaken it enough to have a fighting chance

[ember river]

More like the voided godseeker does get obliterated

[trim egret]

Yeah, anyway, you didn't answer my question. First time hearing of this guy and online no one talks about him. Who is this guy Mizello?

[ember river]

A conductor who died during surgery

[golden olive]

yeah one is probably not enough

[brisk finch]

Yeah, I read that (especially with Skong in mind) as the void being pushed back into itself

It cannot sustain itslef in Hallownest at that point, so poof it goes, back into the abyss

[ember river]

There isn't much lore around him but it's pretty interesting to see how the society worked

[frozen shell]

The Unravelled creeps me out so bad

[bright frigate]

its not my theory and im not even sure if this counts as a "lore" theory but can i send an interesting thing about silksong i found online?

[zinc dagger]

I dunno if putting the spoiler thing is necessary but I might as well.

[ember river]

It's not

Also that's very interesting, yes

I had seen the theory of elder hu being from shakra's tribe but this one makes even more sense

[zinc dagger]

Take it in with a grain of salt, I typed it all out at 3 am or so

[zinc dagger]

[frozen shell]

Elder Hu has very similar beads to rosaries on his neck

[brisk finch]

I wonder if we'll get more of Shakra's tribe, considering how heavily they were teased

Shakra cannot return, but nothing says we can't meet more/go there, even

[ember river]

Something you got wrong is them fighting as soldiers, Xero was executed for crimes against the king

[frozen shell]

Is the watcher at the edge not a coral soldier?

[ember river]

They look more like what Shakra's master has

[ember river]

He is

[frozen shell]

then xero should have had grey armor if time decays the color

[brisk finch]

I think watcher may be a literal statue

Like, not just frozen in time
Actual rock

[ember river]

Watcher isn't a statue
But he's been there for a long, long time, in full exposure to the elements

[frozen shell]

the memento mentions the color is due to the sand and time decaying him

[ember river]

Xero probably took care of his armor until he was executed

[brisk finch]

Because nothing in the real world tower area looks like him, color wise
They're all reddish

[frozen shell]

fair

[ember river]

It's mentioned several times that it's just a normal guy and the effects of time

[zinc dagger]

What about before that? Like...
"Hey. You guys look like you'd make great soldiers. Wanna work with me?"
"I don't think so."
"Do it or you're all banished from these lands."
" Okay. "

[brisk finch]

I wouldn't say several times
Seems to be just the memento

[frozen shell]

Also what is the significance of the room above Ass Jim's boss fight?

[zinc dagger]

What about dung defender?

[brisk finch]

But yes, I conceed

The real dlc desire

[zinc dagger]

I mainly took inspiration from that

[brisk finch]

(As far as I know, that's a real skong sprite sheet btw)

[ember river]

Journal entry

[pale valve]

Khann is a cool Ogrim successor

[frozen shell]

Old warrior guarding the border of their domain, stiffened by time and awoken by song.

[ember river]

I think they were doing their own thing, and xero tried something funny and didn't work out

What they did isn't that important either, and it's not like we're able to know

[rocky smelt]

in what way is he like ogrim?

[pale valve]

have you listened to his theme

[ember river]

If you leave the theory at "they are coral bugs that left for hallownest at some point" it'd be excellent

[pale valve]

it feels very deliberate!

[rocky smelt]

yeah, im talking abt the character or the fight tho

[ember river]

Trying to overexplain kills so many theories

[pale valve]

they're both proud warriors commanding "terrain"

[zinc dagger]

Understandable

[pale valve]

it doesn't have to be 1 to 1 but it's like how Broodmother is our Gruz Mother for this game

[frozen shell]

the coral bugs really seem crustcean like, do we think crustceans are considered bugs in HK?

like could there be a lobster dude

[rocky smelt]

trobbio felt more like dung defender to me fight wise

[ember river]

Spiders are, so I guess they could be?

[hasty flint]

Pill bugs are actually crustaceans I think

[ember river]

one of the red shelled bugs in the HK graveyard looks like a crab

[pale valve]

Trobbio is more like Grimm

[brisk finch]

It's interesting that the only reference I could find to real classifications (Arachni) was in a cut character's dialogue

[ember river]

Trobbio isn't like grimm

[brisk finch]

TC seems very intent on keeping it all vague, which. Fair enouhg

[rocky smelt]

i disagree, ppl only say that cuz of aesthetics

[pale valve]

dude literally fights us on a stage

[hasty flint]

Aesthetically maybe but gameplay wise no

[ember river]

The only thing they have in common is just spectacle

[zinc dagger]

Magnus looked like some kind of crab

[ember river]

And a red theme I guess

[frozen shell]

they should be gay for each other

[frozen shell]

some of Krust King Khann's minions seem like shrimp

[pale valve]

"the only thing they have in common is that they have a similar aesthetic and fight premise" ok lol

[rocky smelt]

trobbio and dung defender both figh with bouncing hazards and going under the arena a lot

[ember river]

The attacks, lore and behavior are entirely different

[rocky smelt]

the fight is nothing like grimm lol ppl just see red and a stage and go omg grimm ripoff

[ember river]

So is the music

[pale valve]

yeah but they're both stage fights!

[ember river]

And trobbio 2 isn't even red

[ember river]

Again, the only thing they have in common

[pale valve]

if we want a fight that has a tone like Grimm it's Phantom

[zinc dagger]

What about the whole "coral tower used to be underwater, then something happened that caused it to fall into ruin"

[ember river]

Yeah phantom has a bit more in common with grimm

[sage flame]

First Sinner is a fight that felt like Grimm

[ember river]

But grimm is a pretty unique boss

[pale valve]

look nothing is 1 to 1

[ember river]

No it didn't

First sinner felt like a mix of widow+gms

[pale valve]

I'm just saying, they didn't make Khann's theme an echo of Ogrim's for no reason

[ember river]

At least for me

[sage flame]

Idk, the constant movement made it feel like it to me

[brisk finch]

nah I can see it, the dash and weave

[ember river]

That still doesn't make trobbio anything similar to grimm