sk-lore

[solid elk]

Look fam, if a child with no skills can make the journey, and Sharma had no self-preservation between we had to save him from Whiteward, it makes sense that it is able to be done by most bugs

[sage flame]

Also GMS is now dead, how is Pharloom supposed to keep the bugs having a higher sense of thought

[silk dirge]

yeah but you need to go all the way around

[sinful nimbus]

True

[severe siren]

@foggy fractal I found an unused world map icon for an area called "Bay"
And the save file image you sent me is called "Pharloom Bay" btw

[uncut holly]

I mean if they could get away with selling people its the last civilization there has to be no civilization even remotely near if you walked for ages

[sinful nimbus]

BARNACLE BAY

[uncut holly]

because then people would come over and point out their lie or you wouldnt be able to keep that lie

[limpid summit]

POOP PALACE

[sinful nimbus]

😭 🌹 🪦

[whole holly]

sharma did have self-presevation, she hid from bugs in whiteward

[severe siren]

Bay will come soon trust

[solid elk]

She? Do we have a confirmed gender?

[lean temple]

It's never implied or stated GMS had a similar beacon to PK

[uncut holly]

In poop we trust

[lean temple]

He's a dude

[sage flame]

Oh yeah that thing

[solid elk]

I hope that is mud

[uncut holly]

NEin its poop

[silk dirge]

ok seer says the moth tribe were "fickle" as in like they werent stable in their loyalties so it could be interpreted they were careless and didnt realize they would kill the radiance

[wild zinc]

I hope poop town gets added in a dlc

[edgy barn]

The mind-wiping wastes likely helped to.

[sinful nimbus]

SHErma
sHERma

[limpid summit]

Silksong DLC will be spiritual successors to HK DLC
Ogrim will appear in Barnacle Bay
There will be a Lifeblood update mirroring HK’s but with more Lifeblood content
Boss rush (obviously)

[limpid summit]

sHErma beLIEveD

[severe siren]

Look, it's even got the water along the bottom right and at the top right there's the angled ceiling where Hornet used the Sting Shard in the 2019 trailer

[uncut holly]

Sherma should rule the Citadel post game, because Hornet is presumeably gonna go home

[wild zinc]

Nuh uh it will be called the plasmium update

[whole holly]

i keep forgetting but that's beside point

[sinful nimbus]

Seeing as how their entire culture is formed around remembering people so they can live on in the dream realm I highly doubt this is the case

[sage flame]

We will probably get a couple of DLCs

[silk dirge]

BAY AREA REFERENCE WHAT IS ANY INFERIOR PART OF THE US

[foggy fractal]

yep

[sinful nimbus]

"Sorry guys I forgot how the dream realm worked 😔 "

[foggy fractal]

makes me wonder if there are other unused map icons

[lean temple]

The game says what his gender is

[solid elk]

We have some unnamed tribes that some characters are from, so pockets of habitable land exist outside of Kingdoms too. Nomads and tribesman are still civilization.

[limpid summit]

Oakland is the Abyss

[silk dirge]

REAL

san jose is the fucking citadel

[uncut holly]

That being said, the Citadel is huge. It puts Hallownests Capital city to shame. In reality all other places in Pharloom are just places to prop up and sustain the Citadel which itself is most of Pharloom

[silk dirge]

with all the techbros

[whole holly]

i keep forgetting yeah, i kinda said that already

[solid elk]

All I'm saying is that if a child can make the journey, most bugs can. Sharma is basically a baby

[sage flame]

Which I still find crazy. There is really nothing for Hornet to go back to. There is almost nothing left in Hallownest. There is still a whole large community in Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we slandering COT

[silk dirge]

google ceo is gms

[uncut holly]

I believe Shakra is said to be on the kingdoms outskirts, and Garmond got haunted so maybe hes near too

[whole holly]

most bugs do die tho, canonically

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel is useless Hallownest did what it did with far less space 🥱

[limpid summit]

Slave labor

[solid elk]

Literal any adult should take that place.

[limpid summit]

That’s like comparing Dubai to NYC

[uncut holly]

Yeah its all slave labor

[severe siren]

I checked, there arent afaik
The other unused ones include:
-World maps intended to be for Wisp Thicket and every Citadel subarea
-A very old one for moss grotto which is very tiny and incomplete
-An alternative Far Fields one which is the same but instead has more room jutting to the top right, meant to be for|| the act 3 exclusive content we know now|| but likely didnt wanna confuse players/look ugly

[edgy barn]

Like it or not there are still people left in Hallownest

[silk dirge]

ok but moths are stupid flying fucks

[uncut holly]

Tbh in reality the Citadel is too big for someone to run themself. Whats gonna happen after the events of the game is your gonna have big majestic empty halls

[silk dirge]

/j

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think they're stupid I think they're evil

[limpid summit]

I don’t think there’s enough left in Hallownest for Hornet to hang around but she might go back

[edgy barn]

And hornet likely still feels a sense of duty towards

[solid elk]

Elderbug literally is living in Dirtmouth and he needs more friends

[uncut holly]

The Citadel is so damn huge, its insane.

[silk dirge]

live footage of moths forsaking the radiance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWUQ40XT0jI

[uncut holly]

And all thats gonna be just empty, maybe someone will occupy it

[sinful nimbus]

Dang she just hates midwife and the spiders?

[edgy barn]

Well midwife is the only other spider left

[uncut holly]

Hornet said when you buy a house that their home is elsewhere

[edgy barn]

Also that one weaver

[foggy fractal]

I see

[solid elk]

The Mantises are also still a society that remains in Hallownest. it isn't like nothing else is left if you want somewhere that isn't abandoned

[sage flame]

Not if more bugs go up to the citadel. Now the pathway up to the Citadel is not crawling with corrupted bugs. The Deep Docks and Bone Marrow for example were filled with corrupted pilgrims. Now they won’t be

[lean temple]

Not enough to rebuild and the PK is dead

[solid elk]

Unn is alive...if that matters for wanting somewhere to live

[uncut holly]

We dont know how long after Hollow Knight this takes place, but Hallownest we know is probably alright now. People are likely rebuilding

[silk dirge]

hornet riding unn jockey

[sinful nimbus]

Flying insects instinctually turn their backs to the light so they can stay upright its cool

[sage flame]

They aren’t going to keep blocking people from getting inside the Citadel with Sherma presumably in charge

[limpid summit]

I mean it’s just Midwife really

[sinful nimbus]

Its also why they fly into lights they just go in a circling motion while getting closer and closer

[silk dirge]

ok but moths are still bitches i hate them whenever i see them in my house

[limpid summit]

And then Mask Maker (???)

[gritty prawn]

why are people so hellbent on hornet returning to hallownest after the game, theres so much that implies shed remain in pharloom at least temporarily. whether she ends up on the surface after the true ending or not doesnt change that

[uncut holly]

Supposedly before the Hauntings the number 1 killer of Pilgrims was the The Judges, The Stickbugs, and the Craws.

[silk dirge]

i hope she stays in pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Deepnest was recently infected they are probably fine

[solid elk]

Damn, Sherma really is the only named Character left in the Citadel who isn't a jackass, huh?

[uncut holly]

Im pretty sure the Ants where pretty cool before the haunting and the war. The giant ants where said to guard Store Fronts

[whole holly]

hornet better wake unn up and rule entire hallownest with white lady

[silk dirge]

like ive said many times why the fuck would hornet go back to a dead kingdom

[uncut holly]

So they did trade with people

[limpid summit]

Yeah but recently infected is just like their society hasn’t collapsed entirely they’re still full of goop

[lean temple]

The Weavers pressured her to becoming queen and being more like them. She likely doesn't care too much about them

[sinful nimbus]

Any insect freaks me out indoors

[limpid summit]

We never did get a Distant Villagers answer

[sinful nimbus]

they intrude upon MY domain

[wild zinc]

I like to think Hornet will stay in pharloom for a while before coming back to hallownest

[uncut holly]

Pretty sure the Ants where way more chill than the Mantis's but then they went to war

[sage flame]

The only people we know that are alive in Hallownest and the mantises, the bees, and all the immigrants that arrive there

[limpid summit]

Giant spider with 8 puppets

[whole holly]

for new life to prosper there

[silk dirge]

team cherrys inspiration probably

[grand hare]

so why was hornet brought to pharloom

[edgy barn]

The bees aren't alive

[uncut holly]

Dung Defenders alive, quite a few people are alive. Most of the people besides the Nail Smiths and a few others are people who traveled there.

[limpid summit]

For her silk

[wild zinc]

Grandma wanted to suck her dry I think

[sinful nimbus]

||Grand Mother Silk is scrounging up any silk she can to sustain her daughter (Lace)|| Spoilered because idk how far you are in the game

[lean temple]

The Bees died. The Mantises are probably still going strong though

[silk dirge]

like genuinely if i saw an australian spider irl im taking whatever i can and RUNNING

[solid elk]

She rejects her desire to rule, IIRC, regarding becoming the next GMS. I imagine she does not want to rule a Kingdom at all

[grand hare]

I got the true ending so no worries

[lean temple]

Hornet doesn't like being a monarch

[grand hare]

do we know why she even tried to make lace??

[whole holly]

well, Unn ruled greenpath and wasn't like GMS

[silk dirge]

she probably just wanted a child

[gritty prawn]

theres so much about hornet lamenting on standing guard for hallownests corpse for so long and yeah despite loving her home i do not think she has any desire to return forever

[whole holly]

i did word that badly

[quartz flicker]

Do you think that Pharloon was more heavily altered by the rise of the Citadel, than Hallownest was by the stuff the Pale King did?

[silk dirge]

actually pretty similar to herrah if you think about it

[limpid summit]

It would be interesting for Hornet to return to Hallownest to see the WL’s bindings broken and Hallownest the host of a giant Erdtree type thing

[silk dirge]

why did herrah want a child even tho she was never going to see her basically?

[solid elk]

Hallownest has far fewer people to help rebuild, compared to Pharloom. There are a bunch of Pilgrims, but only so many characters left in Hallownest with their mind intact

[uncut holly]

Oh Pharloom was completely crushed by the Citadel of Song

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[lean temple]

Pharloom. The Citadel did so much damage to the already existing lands

[sinful nimbus]

Well they both drastically changed the lands ig

[solid elk]

Wait, after the Radiance dies, are the Colloseum bugs back to normal or dead?

[limpid summit]

For political power and also cause if she was a Weaver it would have been hard
She also did care about Hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel had a more negative impact though

[limpid summit]

Audience don’t know
Warriors dead besides maybe God Tamer

[gritty prawn]

besides tc really hates canonizing endings and for all we know hallownest could be swallowed by the void rn if embrace the void is what happens

[sinful nimbus]

They retconned the all endings are canon

And Shade Lord isn't malicious

[whole holly]

Manitses collectively can spread and repopulate Hallownest if they wanted to, they are by fact largest demographic

[quartz flicker]

In Hallownest, we mostly just don't know what the City of Tears region used to look like.

[lean temple]

All endings are canon is obsolete

[silk dirge]

this annoys me so much they said this like before godmaster released

[uncut holly]

Pharloom definitely has alot of history its just all not really known right now

[gritty prawn]

we still dont know which one is canon though the true ending only narrows down the options

[silk dirge]

can we stop bringing it up

[sinful nimbus]

What

Someone said something that wasn't true and I corrected them

[silk dirge]

also a reddit ama is not hk lore

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it is

[limpid summit]

All endings are canon was a statement that applied better when SS was a HK dlc, implying that doing stuff like getting the first ending wouldn’t lock you out of Hornet content

[uncut holly]

So ive brought up the idea that the call that is being sent out by the Pilgrims was either GMS mind control or the Citadel and got shot down as it always being a thing.

[sinful nimbus]

People just arguing for the sake of arguing now

[uncut holly]

But I think thats actually what it is, we see in the First Shrine we ring the bell and it calls people. People just know from the bell ringing

[silk dirge]

yeah this is my thoughts

[severe siren]

All endings canon, but the events of Silksong may not happen after all of them, trust

[sinful nimbus]

"x is true"
"x is not true"
"oh my god stop talking about this"

[gritty prawn]

like yeah all endings are canon evidently doesnt work with stuff like sealed siblings being a thing but we still dont know for a fact which one silksong takes place after

[uncut holly]

And its the FIRST Shrine. I feel like the Weavers Hexed the Citadel to call people from the Wastes in with its "call"

[solid elk]

They don't seem to want to, tbh. They also need people to hold back the Deepnest Beasts

[limpid summit]

The only thing that was retconned is that all endings would be accounted for in ALL future content; and they were, in HK DLC

[silk dirge]

it was before godmaster released lmao

[solid elk]

Mantis Village is actually kinda horrible to be in, since you have monsters next door

[gritty prawn]

it could be embrace the void as much as dream no more

[uncut holly]

We ring the bell of the First Shrine, and it draws bugs in. Just like how people find it strange when trying to describe the "Call" of the Citadel.

[severe siren]

Can we axe ?tag info jokerpsa now

[silk dirge]

wait when did godmaster release

[sinful nimbus]

SS was future HK content and they evidently changed their philosophy

[uncut holly]

I think the Weavers made the Pilgrims and the Pilgrimage purposefully

[sage flame]

Compared to Hallownest which is basically a corpse there are a lot of communities in Pharloom that can help rebuild. There are all of the Pilgrims whether they be in Bone Bottom, Bellhart, the Citadel, or all the other pilgrims that arrive there seemingly every day.

There are also the ants which are a clan that seems to be doing quite alright, they just need to get a new queen. There are also the inhabitants of Greymoor and Shellwood. Shellwood seems to have an entire little community with those fisherman

[limpid summit]

2018

[sinful nimbus]

Whether you think its good writing or not it is undeniably a retcon

[silk dirge]

ok august 23 2018

[uncut holly]

Pale King would ascend his citizens minds, the Weavers had to call them out from other places

[whole holly]

deepnest beasts and mantises do make up significant portion of Hallownest and with them being part of hallownest, new kingdoms may establish

[severe siren]

Five. Hundred. Retcons.

[uncut holly]

Also think the Citadels rule is predicated on Mind Control because the peopel from Nameless Town mention being lured and seduced by the Weavers below

[limpid summit]

Yeah it’s a retcon to a degree one I honestly don’t mind idrc about DnM vs EtV (even though I lean towards the latter) but the possibility of it being after Sealed Siblings was always stupid to me

[sinful nimbus]

TC when they need to canonize 3Q because they're bored

[solid elk]

The Swamp people also exist. They might be more amenable to others once the pollution stops. Same with the Flies and not being forced into being jailers

[silk dirge]

never deconfirmed

[whole holly]

what do pilgrims worship, why do they want to enter citadel?

[sinful nimbus]

It was almost definitely not true in HK though

[edgy barn]

Are the bugs that fell to the haunting still alive? As in, will they go back to normal once GMS dies to the void? Because if they don't, the ants are definetly fucked.

[limpid summit]

The Citadel less so, when they started messing with silk and waking up GMS that’s when it began with them

[vivid kernel]

guys what happened to the snail shamans after red memory did they die

[uncut holly]

It seems that Pharloom unlike Hallownest gets all its citizens from other places.

[sinful nimbus]

"They never explicitly deconfirmed it" doesn't mean its not a retcon

[solid elk]

This is a big maybe. We have no reason to think they would expand, as they have had a long ass time do since the Infection

[spark valve]

star people don't know what a retcon is you know this by now

[silk dirge]

we just had a small discussion on this vespa was almost definitely in contact with the pale court

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[silk dirge]

she knew about vessels

[gritty prawn]

i like how both have nice evidence though. shade lord flashing and hornet looking back at lace mirroring when she looks back at the knights broken mask both serve as paralles for either ending

[sage flame]

Well the people from nameless town don’t have any minds of their own. They are outside of Pharloom where bugs don’t have higher thought

[uncut holly]

They use the "Call" of the Citadel, which I believe is linked to the ringing of the bell shrines to call in people from the Wastes

[silk dirge]

that doesnt seem to me like something a random bug would know

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but she wanted nothing to do with them

[whole holly]

well traitor lord exists so clearly not true at all

[uncut holly]

We know the people of Nameless Town had minds, they could straight up speak

[silk dirge]

hornet is a few degrees separated from the vessels

[uncut holly]

They also had community

[solid elk]

We never actually hear about any named Gods the Pilgrims had prior to coming. They seemed to all have a religion, but idk if it is all the same religion

[lean temple]

I love all this ss discussion disguised as ss lore

[sinful nimbus]

Knowing about vessels and actively wanting to partake in external affairs are different things

[quartz flicker]

I don't think all of them worship, per se. A lot of them just see the Citadel as a promised land of sorts. A place of rest and happiness.

[limpid summit]

There’s a theory that Vespa was approached as a Dreamer before Herrah and that’s why she’s knowledgeable
Whatever the case she wouldn’t have been in contact with the kingdom at all after Deepnest - or at least that’s what HK suggests

[sinful nimbus]

The hive was isolationist in HK

[whole holly]

i don't think they are worshipping weavers or GMS

[solid elk]

Traitor Lord did jack shit in Queen's Gardens. Look at the non-extant society he built

[sinful nimbus]

Also Hornet's fighting style is nothing like the bees

[silk dirge]

she can turn into a drill

[solid elk]

Also, INFECTION

[sinful nimbus]

Why would Vespa be capable of training Hornet with a weapon specialized for weavers

[uncut holly]

It seems like most of the Pilgrims worship the Citadel itself. You can even see it in Songclave they say "The Citadel has let me live longer"

[quartz flicker]

If the Pilgrims "worship" anything, it's the Citadel itself.

[sinful nimbus]

With a tool. Thats not part of her training

[whole holly]

well, still, it applies

[limpid summit]

“Seals? The weavers did that. Wall climbing? Yeah, that too. The needle, the one thing that was teased that they did? No that was the bees lol”

[uncut holly]

I think the Weavers hexed the bells to sent out a Signal to intelligent bugs that heed its call to come to the Citadel. We even do that with "The First Shrine", and its name is The First Shrine

[solid elk]

Also, it is magic. Crests are literally magic

[uncut holly]

Meaning that its the first place

[quartz flicker]

the infectionn really fucked with the manitises there

[silk dirge]

i mean why wouldnt she if it just works like a sword or nail

[whole holly]

do you think herrah was approached so that hallownest would gain control over deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't

She uses it a lot differently than say Hive Knight

[limpid summit]

Not control but a trade deal was reached yes
PK got silk in WP

[sinful nimbus]

Also "the hive was known for their metalwork" stfu 🥀

[whole holly]

why did PK need Silk

[sinful nimbus]

Why did they add that to the lore no one asked for that

[limpid summit]

Hidden station was built for transport to Deepnest, Distant Village might have let citizens access Deepnest if the kingdom didn’t fall

[whole holly]

lol

[solid elk]

She approached the Pale King because she wanted to fuck him, and a baby came out of that (Hornet). It was that event that had her agree to being a Dreamer

[silk dirge]

tell me this is natural honey

this looks metallic

[uncut holly]

Its comb

[sinful nimbus]

....

[uncut holly]

Its bee substance

[foggy fractal]

TRUE

[limpid summit]

We don’t know
Maybe to study the properties of a substance tied to Soul that wasn’t his own
Weavers certainly found some use out of it

[silk dirge]

ive worked with a lot of metal

and that looks like it to me

[limpid summit]

The hive is made of metal

[severe siren]

When did the hive ever touch metal 😭

[sinful nimbus]

everything in the hive looked organic

[limpid summit]

🤪🤪🤪

[solid elk]

I cannot tell if this is trolling

[uncut holly]

I mean Hives typically arent made with Honey their made with Wax

[quartz flicker]

the Weavers helped construct the seal in the Temple of the Black Egg.

[sage flame]

Steel Assassin Sharpe doesn’t seem to have made it into the game. Unless he is in Steel Soul mode which I have yet to see

[silk dirge]

then what is the hive knights shoulder plates made of

[uncut holly]

Maybe its super hard Wax

[sinful nimbus]

Hive Knight uses it but it looks nothing like hivesteel and Hive Knight was added later so technically lifeblood retconned it

[whole holly]

yeah, structures were clearly wax

[spark valve]

literally just hive knight's armor which is unremarkable

[foggy fractal]

they are def cut
even if you look in the game files they are not there

[limpid summit]

Spoiler if you wanna see:
||he isn’t but he’s teased ||

[sinful nimbus]

Hive Knight was added later

[whole holly]

thanks

[sinful nimbus]

Base hive had nothing to do with metal

[lean temple]

Maybe because it's their game and their world. Asking for it would be fan service and we don't like that, do we

[severe siren]

Hivesteel is lowkey corny but oh well

[solid elk]

Please don't block the Steel people behind Steelsoul mode, I swear

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't add anything to the game and world it just looks silly

[silk dirge]

hivesteel seems cool

[solid elk]

If an update comes that requires Steelsoul mode, I'm crying

[silk dirge]

im a robotics engineering major i love cool materials

[uncut holly]

If Weavers are responsible for calling the Pilgrims, then that also puts every horrible thing that happens to the Pilgrims on the Weavers who stayed

[sinful nimbus]

It would be cool if it was actually prevalent in the first game at all :zote

[silk dirge]

hivesteel is cool thats enough for me

[sage flame]

So did Zote get lifeender from Pharloom?

[sinful nimbus]

who took away my zote privileges

[quartz flicker]

insects are TERRIBLE at being blacksmiths. immersion ruined

[silk dirge]

if team cherry added cnc machines to the hive thatd be fine by me

[uncut holly]

We know the Pilgrims only showed up when there was a Citadel, it would make sense that the Weavers called them

[severe siren]

half of silksong would disappear cause insects dont have bones

There goes the vast majority of area infrastructure and architecture

[solid elk]

Just wait until they add firearms to the Steel City update

[lean temple]

The Hive is pretty big they could have a Forge somewhere. I agree it's odd that they were metal workers but I don't care. Lore updated

[solid elk]

Isn't a lot of stuff made from chitin (shell shards)?

[silk dirge]

yeah same

[severe siren]

Show this individual rosary cannon

[solid elk]

Hornet somehow repairs metallic tools with shell cards

[sage flame]

So what was giving the bugs in Pharloom higher thought again?

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[silk dirge]

oH mY gOd BeEs CoUlD nEvEr WoRk MeTaL they can and its epic

[foggy fractal]

pew pew pew

[solid elk]

Grandmother Silk's Spidussy

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't work metal in the first game

[spark valve]

illiteracy strikes again

[neat sandal]

we already have trobbio using firework
why not

[sage flame]

Now that GMS is gone, how are the bugs going to have higher thought?

[silk dirge]

we just mightve not seen it

[sinful nimbus]

It is a nitpick admittedly 3Q is far worse

[sinful nimbus]

This does not change what I said

[quartz flicker]

this universe has literal robots

[limpid summit]

GMS didn’t give bugs higher thought she just turned some without it into weavers

[silk dirge]

fuck it team cherry should add that to the first game

[teal finch]

doesnt hive knight wear armor

[edgy barn]

They didn't get it from her + the bugs that got it from the Pale King did not lose it when he died

[teal finch]

am i crazy

[quartz flicker]

even Crystal Peak had those golems

[sinful nimbus]

If they did it could've been cool worldbuilding but as it stands its a retcon that adds nothing to either games

[solid elk]

Tbh, I forgot that the Architects were robots and made cogwork people

[silk dirge]

well consider it that now it is

[solid elk]

That's plain magic, but fair

[silk dirge]

im just saying fuck it at this point it looks cool to me

[limpid summit]

Hornet getting a sandwich in Songclave: “I seem to remember the mantis tribe being known for their artisan sandwiches”

[gritty prawn]

i kinda find the idea that all bugs are unconcious so to say without the involvement of a pale being/specifically a pale wyrm obsolete.. theres a lot of inconcistencies like these (lore tablet referring to hallownest as the last kingdom) that could also just straight up be in universe lies

[sinful nimbus]

"looks cool" we don't see it in the hive 🥀

[quartz flicker]

we knew very very little about the Hive in Hollow Knight

[light saddle]

Hi Apple

[spark valve]

they aren't lies they're just about a specific group

[teal finch]

like is this not metal armor and a sword

[limpid summit]

The latter is definitely an in universe lie hi Nugget!!!

[earnest acorn]

i have a theory says silksong ain't more difficult because the bosses are harder
but because hornet is weak as fuck

[sage flame]

Side note, I think Hollow Knight still has the hardest bosses Abs Rad, Grimm, and Pure Vessel

[limpid summit]

Not a lie exactly

[silk dirge]

yeah and whats that needle made of

[limpid summit]

Last civilization is meant to be read in a time where PK’s Hallownest truly is the last

[tired badger]

are the weavers from pharloom, hallownest or somewhere else entirely?

[foggy fractal]

you don't think Lost Lace is harder ?

[silk dirge]

the hive was isolationist right so where would they get it from

[gritty prawn]

i mean yeah, the pk probably did expect hallownest to outlive everything else

[bronze wraith]

maybe the armor is just like, chitin u know?

[sinful nimbus]

Hive Knight's armor doesn't fit either

[solid elk]

Fuck Lost Lace. That girl is crazy hard

[sage flame]

Lost Lace is very hard, it probably goes toe to toe with Grimm

[sinful nimbus]

Its worth noting that both Hive Knight's metal AND hivesteel are retroactive additions

[spark valve]

there is a difference between having one single example of metal and being established as being famous for metalwork I cannot believe that has to be said

[quartz flicker]

Yeah the Pale King was kind of hyping himself up

[silk dirge]

honestly im just going to say it i think the retcons are all probably things team cherry intended to add to hk but didnt bc hk was rushed

[uncut holly]

We know the Citadel used Fleas as pets because we find Fleas in cages there

[sinful nimbus]

Then its a good thing HK was rushed 3Q and the abyss loredrops suck

[silk dirge]

like they probably had a lot of these ideas floating around but ran out of time and money to implement them

[neat sandal]

I think trobbio harder than grimm, and void lace harder than pure vessel

[uncut holly]

Didnt seem to care that the Fleas where sapient

[sage flame]

Now we will have to wait another 6 years for the next game by Team Cherry

[gritty prawn]

probably to uplift himself.. that i can see. but maybe the idea that all bugs are unconcious before a pale wyrm grants them the privelge of thought is inconsistent across the universe. maybe theres just civilizations that advanced naturally, like the void peeps

[silk dirge]

whats wrong with 3Q its a cool idea

[whole holly]

do they have same divine nature as grubs? or for what reason?

[solid elk]

Humand did the same with other humans, as Human Zoos were a thing. Not that unusual

[silk dirge]

if the hive isnt isolationist what is wrong with it

in this world say they arent

[flat hearth]

DLC most likely

[silk dirge]

whats wrong with it

[sage flame]

Why does everyone keep saying Trobbio was hard. I found his base fight pretty ok. I beat him in like 5 tries

[sinful nimbus]

Bees would not be good fits for training a SPIDER with a weapon specialized for SILK

[solid elk]

Wait until he gets depression

[sinful nimbus]

Especially when she already had established SPIDER trainers who used SILK

[silk dirge]

this is a fictional bug world shit doesnt need to make sense based off like irl bug types

[sage flame]

Dark Trobbio was hard I’ll give you that

[gritty prawn]

i was surpirsed when it was over honestly but maybe i was just overleveled

[neat sandal]

it was dark trobbia hard

[sinful nimbus]

Are you suggesting the bees on the other side of the map should've used silk instead of the spiders right next to Hornet 🥴

That is clearly not what TC was going for

Its not like Vespa uses silk in the red memory

[solid elk]

Tbh, a tribe of SILK Moths would be great for that, but TC already spent all their Moth dollars last game and don't want to retread that ground

[quartz flicker]

Hornet is also the Pale King's daughter, and it'd made sense that she'd want to have a well-rounded set of skills.

[silk dirge]

the bees cant use silk but they can use needles

[silk dirge]

yeah this

[sinful nimbus]

TC apparently believed HK did have silk moths who would've produced Silk until they learned you get the silk from boiling the moths in their cocoons

[teal finch]

my personal interpretation of hornet training w the bees was so she'd have a broader skillset, like learning a different fighting style

[sinful nimbus]

Then they were like "wtf I thought it came from their bums"

[solid elk]

Pics or it didn't happen

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they use needles if they don't have silk

[silk dirge]

pins you get the point

whatever hive knight uses

[next sable]

why are you assuming needles have to have silk in order to be used though

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet doesn't wield that

[next sable]

it's not like that's set in stone

[quartz flicker]

Hornet's needle is clearly a custom-made weapon

[sinful nimbus]

Her character would be worse off if she used a pin and never used silk

[silk dirge]

yeah

[solid elk]

I think Hornet training with Vespa makes a lot of sense, as a lot of artwork of her really makes her look thiccer, like Vespa, for some reason

[silk dirge]

also why is she called hornet

[sinful nimbus]

That is what they are specialized for? What's the point of the eye of the needle if you can't put silk in it

[silk dirge]

that doesnt seem like a name some deepnest mfs would give

[quartz flicker]

because it's cooler than "Spider"

[sinful nimbus]

The diegetic reason for her title in HK was her needle being called a flying stinger

[gritty prawn]

i mean according to journal entries hornet clearly always yearned to have wings and stuff like that when she was younger i can totally see her idolising the bees and going out of her own way to train with them rather than being instructed to do so

[sinful nimbus]

None of those journal entries were in HK

[solid elk]

Hornet needed a weapon, as they are working with the same base combat system as the first game

[gritty prawn]

even if its inconvenient and inconsistent with how she was raised

[next sable]

i mean, this is also the universe where pins and nails are the equivalent of swords and rapiers, so like, accuracy isn't guaranteed

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not talking about irl at all

The eye of the needle is used for silk IN THE GAME ITSELF

[silk dirge]

yeah bc the hunters journal in hk is not hornets?

[sinful nimbus]

Which is the entire conceptual point of the weapon

[sinful nimbus]

So it wasn't hinted at in the first game

[solid elk]

The Hornet DLC was funded before HK came out, right? It makes sense for her character to basically be able to be played like the Knight, so her boss fight and fighting style was made close enough to be replicable for the DLC

[next sable]

i mean, yeah, but hornet uses it like a sword and we don't really have to use the eye of the needle depending on your moveset, so...

[mint furnace]

Aka, don’t apply real world logic into a fictional bug universe

[neat sandal]

nail is sword. needle is spear, pin is rapier
just think it like that in bugs term

[gritty prawn]

but they expand on hornets character and give valid reasoning for a potential theory as to why she trained with the hive against all logic

[silk dirge]

yeah this

[next sable]

thank you lol

[sinful nimbus]

She does use the eye of the needle for silk manipulation multiple times in Hollow Knight (Gossamer's storm, needle throw, grappling onto distant objects, etc)

Bees would be unable to do any of this because they cannot produce silk

[silk dirge]

hk doesnt need to explain literally everything about hornet for it to be in silksong 😭

[gritty prawn]

if you complain about lack of logic and stuff being not fleshed out in hk and then refuse to consider silksong in the conversation then whats the point of complaining it

[sinful nimbus]

SS fan doesn't understand what a retcon is #541

[solid elk]

The 3 Weavers we fight all use claws for melee attacks, but I imagine Hornet slashing people with her manicure isn't a good look for the aesthetic TC wants

[next sable]

i mean, she could have just learned general swordplay from the bees though. it's not like the weavers were very good at using weapons

[teal finch]

i dont think thats the point pengu is getting at guys

[mint furnace]

My headcanon is just the bees are really good duelists. We see two, and they both seem very good

[uncut holly]

Why do they have spikes in the Citadel. I mean its a similar story to why the Pale King has a giant collection of buzzsaws. But...

[silk dirge]

i do understand it perfectly

[mint furnace]

So sending people to train with them was like training with nail masters

[silk dirge]

and i think its one of those words you can throw around that loses all meaning

[next sable]

all the weavers we see use silk or their own claws, so it's not a stretch to say they weren't good at using weapons

[sinful nimbus]

Her fighting style doesn't match the bees they were also on the other side of the region 🥴

[silk dirge]

retcon at this point is a buzzword

in this channel

[gritty prawn]

but why does a retcon or not taking place matter

[sinful nimbus]

No its not they retroactively changed a detail in the lore

[sinful nimbus]

Well it adds nothing to the narrative in HK or SS

[silk dirge]

ok and i dont care if it makes the story more interesting to me

[gritty prawn]

it does though

[mint furnace]

When you learn from a master, you don’t fully copy their techniques. You combine them with your own

[sinful nimbus]

What does it add

[silk dirge]

it might not make it more interesting to you

but it does for me

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that's not really how it works even in HK

[next sable]

uh... the only bee we see that actually uses a weapon is hive knight, and that's only one person anyways. you can't possibly extrapolate a whole civilization's fighting style off of one dying knight

[neat sandal]

decoration, anti homeless device

[solid elk]

This is less of a lore debate and now a media preference debate

[teal finch]

what explicitly is the retcon here again? sorry i like missed or glossed over that part of the convo

[silk dirge]

yeah

[solid elk]

Pharloom has a lot of anti-homeless benches

[sinful nimbus]

That was the only established fighting technique

[solid elk]

So many benches cost money

[sinful nimbus]

Discussing the quality of a games story is lore discussion

[mint furnace]

So? Also I don’t think it was ever not confirmed, it was just a low evidence theory

If team cherry sees something cool in the community and adds it, ain’t nothing wrong with that

[gritty prawn]

daughter of three queens adds perfectly into this side of hornets character not fitting a specific criteria or place. shes shunned in pharloom for either her pale wyrm or her weaver side by several characters. the weavers wanted her to distance herself from the pale wyrm. those are just some examples it works perfectly thematically

[next sable]

you're forgetting the traps and fakeout benches too lol

[silk dirge]

also i think a lot of people arent considering gameplay over lore type deals

do you think team cherry really wanted to add a character that fights like hornet

to guard a shitty charm

[foggy cloak]

Yes, that would explain a lot why they ask you to pay for everything.
Although there are exceptions.

[mint furnace]

…okay? I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that it’s not a “plot hole” for it to work that way for Hornet and the hive

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that it was highly unlikely and contradicted multiple elements and then was retroactively added in a different game means its a retcon. That is what the word means

[foggy fractal]

hollowknightsilksong :D

[gritty prawn]

the contradictive elements are literally thematically relevant and effective. so much about hornet is about contradictions

[next sable]

tc went out of their way and said that they wanted to implement the three queens thing a while ago, so... that's not really a retcon. moreso they just added something they wanted to do and were planning to do a while back

[teal finch]

again what is the retcon specifically this is a genuine question i wasnt here to read that part of the convo lmfao

[mint furnace]

Alright, it’s a retcon then, neato

Idk it just doesn’t change anything to me, I liked the three queens theory and it was cool to see it made canon

[foggy cloak]

Although it is rare that weavers seem to use "pale" skills

[sinful nimbus]

How is it thematically relevant, please elaborate

[mint furnace]

Also hk is REALLLY old now, it’s fine for them to change stuff

[silk dirge]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Not for no reason no

[gritty prawn]

(as i mentioned above) daughter of three queens adds perfectly into this side of hornets character not fitting a specific criteria or place. shes shunned in pharloom for either her pale wyrm or her weaver side by several characters. the weavers wanted her to distance herself from the pale wyrm. those are just some examples it works perfectly thematically

[mint furnace]

How is it for no reason????

[spark valve]

it's crazy how everyone will admit it's a retcon by definition and then continue to get weird and defensive when it's called that

[mint furnace]

It’s cool character development for hornets story

[next sable]

they're human and it's their creation. they can do whatever they want with it and the majority seem cool with it

[foggy fractal]

lmao yeah

[silk dirge]

ill admit that but to me saying something was retroactively added doesnt mean shit

[gritty prawn]

theres several entries in the journal where hornet envies other species for their traits too, its all little things that add into neat characterization

[mint furnace]

Hornet is a daughter of hollownest; all of it

[silk dirge]

so what if something was retroactively added

[gritty prawn]

but why does everyone think a retcon is instantly a bad thing

[silk dirge]

i dont give a single shit

[mint furnace]

More so because people seem to say it with negative connotation

[gritty prawn]

most of the things silksong "retcons" work incredibly well

[sinful nimbus]

If this detail was never retroactively added this entire theme would not have changed

[solid elk]

Doesn't a RetCon have to actively go against pre-established lore. Did something from HK become obsolete because of Silksong?

[mint furnace]

If I went back and played hk I might notice one

[silk dirge]

oh yeah its "bad writing" said who? some random writer 100 years ago whos fucking dead now??

[mint furnace]

And that’s fine, again it’s old and their vision changed

[gritty prawn]

but it adds nicely into the change

[next sable]

i think the 3 queen thing is cool. there's nothing really limiting that outside of arbitrary limits and biases you put on it

[sinful nimbus]

I'm human and its my opinion and I'm allowed to say whatever I want about it

[next sable]

saying what should and shouldn't be canon is... certainly an opinion though

[mint furnace]

Maybe, but it still adds to the story and it doesn’t take away anything

This feels like a stupid hill to die on, I found it a very cool addition

But if you don’t see it that way, that’s fine

[teal finch]

wait when did anyone say that

[sinful nimbus]

It does detract from the story

[silk dirge]

i think the vast majority of people enjoy the 3q concept and the fighting style thing is really a nitpick like come on

[mint furnace]

How

[sinful nimbus]

No one cares what the vast majority of people thinks sorry

[gritty prawn]

the retcons are only noticeable if youre really into the lore anyway its nothing youll outright notice ingame unless you have the full picture already (for example the lore tablet regarding hallownest being the last civilization but thats clearly just a in universe lie)

[sinful nimbus]

By changing a detail even though they really have no reason to

[silk dirge]

alright then i hope you dont enjoy democracy

[next sable]

they never changed anything lol.

[sinful nimbus]

Democracy is never and has never been applied to opinions by rational people

[mint furnace]

Yeah; it’s very difficult to notice unless you’re really looking too

[spark valve]

calling somebody authoritarian because they have a different axiom for judging narratives is crazy

[mint furnace]

The reason is it’s cool

[gritty prawn]

the reason is deepening the character and story and the daughter of three queens thing does that so incredibly well it doesnt even matter that the hive is just underdeveloped in the first game

[sinful nimbus]

We are really into the lore its the lore channel

[mint furnace]

It also does really add to the story to me

[grand hare]

so whats up with all of the bells and stuff

[foggy fractal]

we've lost the plot dawg 😭 it ain't that serious !

[sinful nimbus]

"Only people who care about the story will think its bad" isn't an argument

[solid elk]

I'm confused as to how this was a change instead of an addition. What does it contradict?

[sage flame]

Her name is Hornet because of her training with Vespa. Spiders don’t have stingers

[mint furnace]

Hornet is a daughter of hallownest

[next sable]

(is the 3 queen thing even a retcon...?)

[silk dirge]

they really want to force that axiom onto others tho

[teal finch]

idk they kinda did go crazy w this

[sinful nimbus]

Scroll up

[spark valve]

ikr people are crazy

[gritty prawn]

eh tc kind of tiptoed around it more

[sinful nimbus]

No I don't

[next sable]

so... basically no then?

[gritty prawn]

idk why this dude is so insistent on painting it as a bad thing

[silk dirge]

then why are you being so aggresive with it 😭

[sage flame]

The Three Queens thing is something that TC said they planned to add but never got around to it in HK

[sinful nimbus]

You can enjoy what you enjoy but this is pretty poor writing if you are evaluating the game from a consistency and narrative perspective

[mint furnace]

Has to do with faith, I believe

There’s a classic motif that plays throughout the game that symbolizes it

[gritty prawn]

dont quote me on this im not entirely sure on the full history of this theory but i believe tc said they wanted to add it into hk but didnt end up doing so

[sage flame]

How do you think she got the name Hornet

[silk dirge]

i mean i can do that also and find that it doesnt seem too bad to me

[next sable]

dies irae is certainly a choice to symbolize faith now that i think about it lol

[mint furnace]

That is just like, your opinion man

[foggy cloak]

I think Hk was already too obvious if you were a fan of the lore.

[mint furnace]

Yeahhh that one

[silk dirge]

this is playing into exactly what i said before where roller coaster enthusiasts complain about shit like "airtime" which normal guests dont give a shit about

[sinful nimbus]

Consistency with the first game and evaluating what something adds to the story is absolutely not an opinion

[solid elk]

Damn, you dislike the new Abyss lore too???

[gritty prawn]

i guess godhome is a poorly written part of the story then because its retroactively added to the story and changes how we view parts before it

[sinful nimbus]

I hate everything about what they did with elements from the first game

Its impressive how much they screwed up

[silk dirge]

"what something adds to the story" is absolutely subjective what

[mint furnace]

I do love looking back at how pale king was really not that bad compared to Pharloom lmao

Pale king had class issues but atleast he didn’t make sickness a crime punishable by incinerator lol

[next sable]

write your own fanfic then and let people judge it then lol.

[silk dirge]

that is not objective in the slightest

[mint furnace]

Ngl this fit feels like he’s ragebaiting at this point

[next sable]

true. PK is absolutely the better ruler, and by a lot

[sinful nimbus]

The story's themes and narrative objectively do not hinge upon or benefit from this retcon being canon

[foggy fractal]

I mean even if its objectively inconsistent and devalues the first game narratively
its subjective on how much you put up with it

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[silk dirge]

that is literally subjective lol

[next sable]

prosperous economy, fair-ish class system, and everything was going well until a certain moth screwed things up

[sinful nimbus]

Whether you like it is subjective but the facts are there

[foggy fractal]

another epic win for Andy

[foggy cloak]

For me they expanded it a little better, in the first game the void only felt like an area that apparently had life, but in Sk you really see the destructive power of the abyss

[sinful nimbus]

The themes and narrative are not subjective and can be analyzed from an objective framework?

[mint furnace]

Also - if it does, I DONT THINK IT MATTERS. Hollow knight is old, and they have changed their opinions, views, and ideas throughout the very long development of the series

[edgy river]

Retcon only means it retroactively connects to something in the future.

RETroactive CONnection

And is not a problem in any media. Retcon that breaks cannon is bad because it breaks cannon, not because it's a retconn

[gritty prawn]

this conversation would benefit from viewing silksong as the dlc it was intended to be rather than a standalone sequel

[sinful nimbus]

That is uh not what retcon stands for 😭

[silk dirge]

go ahead and do that on an ap test then say a poem objectively means something and see what happens

[mint furnace]

And every time they change something, it truly is not that noticeable and if it is it flows very well

[solid elk]

This is like saying Legend of Korra ruined devalued the lore of Avatar: TLA by retconning how bending came to be.

[teal finch]

Well,

[silk dirge]

the themes of silksong are absolutely subjective

[mint furnace]

Okay bad example lightning bending is cooked by Korra

[next sable]

you actually would be surprised by how many people truly think that

[sinful nimbus]

Legend of Korra is pretty notoriously bad

[silk dirge]

everyone can take away massively different things

[sinful nimbus]

They completely butchered the spirit realm

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't mean they are all right

[gritty prawn]

shit even if you ignore interpreting the themes then for hornets character it makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

You can also read a science textbook and come to different interpretations

[gritty prawn]

and characterization is a pretty objective thing

[silk dirge]

i have literally never had an english teacher who said there is a right or wrong interpretation to a poem

[whole holly]

i love it sm, additions didn't feel mutually exclusive for me unlike silksong, still love silksong tho

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension exists for fiction, too

[mint furnace]

I think it helps connect Hornet to hallownest very naturally

[silk dirge]

science is a lot more different because it is an objective thing

[sinful nimbus]

So is the meaning of words

[mint furnace]

That’s the main story beat for Hornet and it definitely feels like to have the three queens theory canonized for it

[sinful nimbus]

Whats in the story is OBJECTIVE, how you feel about the story is SUBJECTIVE
The ingredients for vanilla icecream are OBJECTIVE, how much you like the taste is SUBJECTIVE

[gritty prawn]

if youre hellbent on silksong sucking then you can think that but trying to convince everyone it objectively sucks just makes you seem like a pretentious asshole

[next sable]

so... stop treating the retcon as objectively bad lol

[mint furnace]

Eh… the story is objective but interpretation is not

[sage flame]

Hornet being the “Daughter of Hallownest” works better now because she was constructed from all around Hallownest, from the Weavers, to the City of Tears, to the hive

[foggy fractal]

mmmmm yummy icecream

[silk dirge]

how inconsistent it is is subjective

[sinful nimbus]

I specified the objective frameworks I was working off of

[next sable]

true! what's your favorite flavor. mine's strawberry\

[sinful nimbus]

No it is not 🥴

[gritty prawn]

i like this because it literally only adds onto the lore of the game in such a neat and simple way

[mint furnace]

We are not wrong for liking the hornet hive relation, you are actually for saying “erm actually it’s objectively wrong” like what??

[sage flame]

How is it inconsistent? I am curious

[silk dirge]

if the story was very clearly well defined it might

but team cherry left a lot of open questions in hk

[sinful nimbus]

It is objectively wrong from the frameworks I have specified yes

[silk dirge]

so to stamp down on it being "objective" is dumb

[winter iris]

Barrow my GOAT

[sinful nimbus]

This was not among them

[next sable]

question. how do we know your framework is objectively the one, true, completely correct one?

[mint furnace]

If you’re gonna pull out “reading comprehension” the BASIS for high level reading comprehension is identifying varying interpretations and opinions and comparing them

[teal finch]

this is getting beyond scope

[winter iris]

Barrow saves Pharloom by allowing access to the abyss.

[sinful nimbus]

It is not its just the lense I view the story from

[silk dirge]

the hive being isolationist is absolutely an open question

[gritty prawn]

also the abyss was treated perfectly in silksong in my opinion, it makes sense that its just a thing that exists anywhere down below and that any civilization advanced enough can access it

[winter iris]

MVP

[foggy fractal]

if I was mod this channel would be in control.

[silk dirge]

you can be isolationist to varying degrees

[next sable]

so your framework is subjective, got it

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/kept-under-control-gif-3197254853617936648

[mint furnace]

Barrow is the goat

“Go away I’m working”

“Oh worlds ending? Yeah I guess I got a thing that could help. Probably doesn’t work but gl”

[edgy river]

Retroactive Continuity but whatever

[sinful nimbus]

They pretty clearly didn't want to intermingle with foreign affairs that much is obvious from Vespa's dialogue and the Wanderer's Journal artbook

[edgy river]

Same idea

[sinful nimbus]

No

Reading comprehension devil

[next sable]

the lens in which one views a story is by definition subjective

[sinful nimbus]

The framework is objective it is whether or not you choose to use that framework that will vary from person to person

[silk dirge]

yeah but vespa very clearly was in contact with the rulers of hallownest so was she isolationist or was it just the rest of the bees

[foggy fractal]

the reading comprehension curse 🥶

[next sable]

but sure, continue thinking i'm pissing on the poor lol. i'm not dealing with you

[gritty prawn]

also about the hive being isolationist part i think the reason hornet got in wasnt ever her connection to the pale king i personally headcanon she had proven herself in battle and thus worthy to train under their blade

[sinful nimbus]

This was never clear

[mint furnace]

That’s an interesting idea, I wonder where they fell on the scale if it goes deepnest - mantis village - moths

[silk dirge]

THERE IT IS

[next sable]

was the hive not isolationist directly after the infection?

[sinful nimbus]

Knowing a secret detail does not mean you are actively in contact with them no

[mint furnace]

It seems like they would be decently okay with the king if hornet trains with Vespa

[silk dirge]

yeah but that is not a known answer

and thus is open to interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

what

[next sable]

like, i thought the hive only became isolationist because of the infection

[mint furnace]

I think they probably did it as a reaction

[gritty prawn]

i mean, personally i dont know. but if thats the canon case then yeah my headcanon becomes kinda obsolete but in the other case thats how i think itd work

[sinful nimbus]

If you wanted to claim the hive was in active contact with PK you'd need evidence for that claim

[mint furnace]

And then it failed but turned out semi okay because the hive continued to function

[maiden meteor]

I feel like Hive had more relationship with PK that we’re led to believe

[silk dirge]

yeah and if tc wants to make up evidence for that then its fine bc its left open

[sinful nimbus]

No it was early on in the kingdom according to the artbook

[next sable]

oh, there's an artbook

[maiden meteor]

Tram leading all the way to Hive is pretty weird

[mint furnace]

However Vespa died so the hives probably fucked anyway if they follow bee logic

[sinful nimbus]

Not if it makes no sense and retroactively changes the lore

[silk dirge]

it would make a lot of sense for the leader of the hive to be in more contact

[spark valve]

if only there was a term for that...

[sinful nimbus]

[maiden meteor]

considering Kingdom’s Edge is an off-limits area it’s weird tram leads here

[mint furnace]

I’d assume the hive had the same relation as mantises did

[foggy fractal]

[gritty prawn]

speak of red memory related stuff i kinda think it would have been the perfect place for a "silksongs path of pain" moment, but i mainly say that cause i would have loved it to be longer lmfao

[mint furnace]

Acceptance he exists but not joining

[next sable]

kingdom's edge always felt dangerous to the common bug, so i can see why it's off-limits

[maiden meteor]

I feel it’s more that it contains wyrm’s corpse

[foggy fractal]

not even a white palace equivalent area in SS
no colo
TC fumbled !!!!

[maiden meteor]

so PK probably wouldn’t want bugs to build there

[sinful nimbus]

Path of pain was entirely optional I don't think they should have a mandatory ultra hard platforming gauntlet

[next sable]

mmm, i would have hated it. it's an important emotional/narrative story beat and having it be locked behind hard platforming would sour it for me

[mint furnace]

You have to do the actual path of pain because that’s actually just the foyer to pale king and white ladys house in the palace

[silk dirge]

except it doesnt bc while we established the hive was isolationist as a whole we dont know how isolationist the leaders were they no doubt couldnt just stay completely isolated while shit was happening

[sinful nimbus]

colo ain't got nothing on the high halls gauntlet 🗣️

[gritty prawn]

i mean not even in the white palace segment, just a difficult platforming challenge that leads to one extra mind blowing hornet cutscene. i feel like there was a lot of potential gameplay wise speaking with the disappearing platforms and such

[foggy fractal]

NUH UH HIGH HALLS GAUNTLET WAS MID !!!

[next sable]

oh, as in an extra scene? actually, that sounds cool

[foggy fractal]

literally one room I cleared in one attempt
I do not get the hype...

[sinful nimbus]

This did not make 3Q at all the likely option

[silk dirge]

like say team cherry retroactively changed the lore ok i dont fucking care if the hive is or isnt isolationist now

the hive being isolationist or not literally has like

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that it was technically possible does NOT MAKE IT not a retcon

[silk dirge]

no effect on hk

[mint furnace]

I think it would be cool to get one towards the start of the game, what hallownest looks like before she got kidnapped

[sinful nimbus]

That's crazy

[gritty prawn]

yes! im not sure about how it would have worked gampleay mechanic wise because you cant always access the red memory but it just comes of a place for me having asked myself "damn wheres the crazy hornet lore" every other hour in silksong and always being hungry for more lmfao

[sinful nimbus]

What were you arguing about all this time 😭

[uncut holly]

In Citadel culture the Citadel even though heavily religious and seeming more like an order does seem to be a city, one of extreme class discrepency. Its a society made entirely of lowly servants and high society of varying levels, then there also the guards

[maiden meteor]

btw do we have calculations of how deep Pharloom’s abyss is

[silk dirge]

im leaving myself open to options

[uncut holly]

We know of 2 big shots before the fall, Trobbio, and The Gourmand

[maiden meteor]

I feel like ascension segment should give a good idea

[spark valve]

clearly you do care

[thorny brook]

About this deep

[silk dirge]

human beings are complex deal with it

[sinful nimbus]

the good ol backpedal to "I don't actually care"

[teal finch]

again beyond scope

[uncut holly]

I mean you dont really think about how high up Trobbio is in Citadel culture, but he was probably pretty high

Same with the Gourmand he supposedly had many servants

[next sable]

imagine it's a dlc a la dream dlc for hk

[maiden meteor]

This part seems to be inaccurate because it scales descend down for visibility purpose

[silk dirge]

im simply considering various scenarios and backups

[uncut holly]

Infact The Gourmand owned the entire eatery and everything in it, as said by Merwin

[silk dirge]

so yeah im trying to argue its not a big retcon

[uncut holly]

The Holiest Bug

[sinful nimbus]

🥴

[silk dirge]

but im also saying if it is its not a major deal

bc the hive being isolationist or not isnt super important imo

[scenic vigil]

Ok I just finished the True ending and HOLY CRAP WTF

[next sable]

welcome

[sage flame]

Yeah it’s good

[silk dirge]

yeah

[gritty prawn]

i know everyones dying for that boss rush dlc (i get it theres def late game bosses id love to redo myself) but im so lore pilled that id prefer something like that first and foremost. not that cool gameplay additions and lore are mutually exclusive things but godhome wouldnt add THAT much

[silk dirge]

if you cant understand me as being nuanced and thinking different things at the same time idk what to say

[sinful nimbus]

An option to refight bosses shouldn't take that many dev resources I feel

[scenic vigil]

So do you guys think trobbio has some sort of ties with Grimm Troupe? If not directly related maybe at least inspired by them?

[sinful nimbus]

But a steel city dlc would be dope

[next sable]

fair fair. i love a couple of the bosses and would love a godseeker dlc first, but to each their own :P

(also, godhome land of storms lore expansion isn't nothing)

[mint furnace]

They’re saving it for a godhome esc dlc id presume

[gritty prawn]

damn whats your thoughts on lost lace being the true final boss? i saw a lot of controeversy around that

[foggy fractal]

either way modders will probably get it out within like a month

[sinful nimbus]

You were arguing one thing and then backpedaled to a different thing idk what you're trying to do

[gritty prawn]

thats true and apparently some related stuff has already been found in the files

[mint furnace]

Cool but I want a fourth phase

GMS on the other hand, was really disappointing

That boss actually makes me kinda sad

[sinful nimbus]

Oh first and foremost though give us silksoul 🙏

[next sable]

tbf, gms is like a mid-game boss

[uncut holly]

My theory on Citadel cast system.
At the bottom of the totem pole you have the back stage workers, they live in very unsafe conditions where they can get smashed between two gears and no one would care. They are promised eventually they will get the chance to rise up in society if they work but it probably will never come. Then theres the Pilgrims, some Pilgrims some Pilgrims are probably Servants of varying levels. Then Guards. Then Celebrities like Gourmand, and Trobbio. Then Architects, and Vault Keepers. Then The Conductors

[scenic vigil]

Honestly the fight was quite fun. Me having skill issue didn't really help. And with Lace being quite lore important it did make sense to put her more centre in the story

[silk dirge]

im trying to say you are being very like absolutist about this saying its a retcon its immediately terrible

[next sable]

she's masquerading as the final boss, but she really isn't in any sense of the concept

[edgy barn]

GMS is one of the few bosses I beat on first try

[sage flame]

Hear me out guys. A Hall of Gods variant where by doing this, Hornet is fighting through her memory to rebuild the Citadel

[gritty prawn]

yeah idk even i expected a crazy new boss but in retrospect lost lace hits so hard and a down to earth boss rather than a giant final entity like radiance or GMS are so much more fun

[mint furnace]

Fair enough but it’s kinda like the radiance equivalent in terms of reveal and then it throws some nails at you, screams, and dies

[sage flame]

Lost Lace was pretty hard

[sinful nimbus]

Well I specified it was a bad retcon because it didn't add much to the story

[silk dirge]

all so many people here have been trying to say is a retcon is not auto bad

[scenic vigil]

So can we now say that the canon ending for SS is the godhome one? Or did anyone see THK in the background with the shades so it would be DNM?

[sage flame]

It was a good final boss

[sinful nimbus]

But apparently human beings are complex and nuanced therefore my arguments about the story are wrong 🥴

[silk dirge]

great and thats a literal subjective thing

[mint furnace]

The entire game builds to them being the controller of all of the hell you see in pharloom and they are a pushover

[thorny brook]

I choose to believe in dream no more

[sinful nimbus]

My statement that it was bad is yeah

[gritty prawn]

also adding onto this i feel like if we do see the? a? godseeker again theyre gonna be up in the nameless town in contrast to hks godseeker chilling pretty far down

[mint furnace]

No, you’re not wrong, it’s just your opinion and some others disagree

[silk dirge]

great perfect

we are on the same page then

[mint furnace]

Please do not bring up parts of reading comprehension then call other opinions wrong lmao

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think I understand how the idea that it doesn't add anything to the story and is inconsistent with HK is subjective though

[scenic vigil]

What's this about a retcon?

[next sable]

actually, i'm hoping that the godhome dlc gives us a harder version of gms after lost lace (a la abs rad)

[silk dirge]

you dont like the story, i do

[sinful nimbus]

Good

[sage flame]

It explains Hornet’s name

[gritty prawn]

i loved that because it felt actually rewarding to defeat too

[uncut holly]

GMS is the normal ending boss like the Hollow Knight, so it makes sense its not extremely difficult. But I feel GMS's power doesnt really come in the difficulty of their boss fight more the fact that they would be impossible for anyone else to properly kill but you

[silk dirge]

typo 💀

[uncut holly]

GMS isnt on Radiance level of difficulty though

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's name was never that important and was already explained by her weapon being called a flying stinger

[silk dirge]

i very much do and i get you but trying to hammer down something as being objective is just a terrible idea

[maiden meteor]

Do we even have 100% confirmation Hive was completely isolationist. Vespa’s dialogue could just as well mean Hive just had no interest in Hallownest’s affairs

[gritty prawn]

also parts of sealed vessel (or just similary construced) ost can be heard in the latter part of lost lace which i think is awesome

[sinful nimbus]

Well whats objective is objective

[mint furnace]

Duo fight would be sick

[uncut holly]

Or atleast I dont think it is, im remember Radiance from a very long time ago so its definitely inaccurate clouded by the memory of the fight

[next sable]

i doubt they're going to pull out the same godseeker as hk considering that they want to keep the ending of hk between etv and dnm ambiguous, but other than that, the only other thing i have to say is that they're probably going to be in putrified ducts to mirror the sewers in hk

[scenic vigil]

Wait so it's about the "daughter of 3 queens" thing? I personally love that they made that part canon again

[silk dirge]

whats objective is subjective tho lol

[mint furnace]

I’d assume it’s like mantises

[uncut holly]

I dont think I even finished the fight originally

[sage flame]

Yes

[silk dirge]

this is like a philosophy argument now lol

[gritty prawn]

ohh damn thats the cooler variant honestly. i erased the putrified ducts from my memory after all that trauma

[sinful nimbus]

I mistyped "I" as "You" whoops

[mint furnace]

Idk this one guy seems to be defending his argument by what, calling it fact? It’s weird to me

[maiden meteor]

I don’t really think it’s possible to retcon something that is at best implied by original source

[sinful nimbus]

...no

[scenic vigil]

Honestly it could have been hornet being near the hive and getting caught by the drones and when vespa saw her she took an interest there. Or the whole hive and deepnest having relations became canon again with Hornet being trained by vespa

[mint furnace]

It’s barely a retcon and if it is, it’s fine

It works and it doesn’t really change anything for hk

Which just leaves the silksong effect and it’s all pluses there to me

[uncut holly]

This entire channel is just talking about Retcons and not the actual lore implications of Silksong

[mint furnace]

I hate that you can’t kill those

[silk dirge]

yeah what im literally trying to say is suppose the hive isnt isolationist all of a sudden it changes literally nothing and i dont see how it detracts from hk lore in the slightest

[scenic vigil]

And yeah the daughter of 3 queens was implied because of the cut dialogue, dialogue that became canon i would say

[uncut holly]

I mean it is tied in yeah but its mostly Retcon talk

[next sable]

they're arguing that it would never happen because bees can't do combat with silk (which is a stupid reason, but whatever), and that the hive was isolationist and would never train hornet under those conditions (which... fair, but also tc can just say the hive made exceptions)

[silk dirge]

the hive played such a minor role in hk i dont see how any change to it can really be made out as something massive

[sinful nimbus]

Its not massive its just that SS has a million retcons like this

[mint furnace]

But… but my 2 lines of background dialogue that 9 people know!!!! It’s ruined!!!!!!!!!

[sinful nimbus]

It adds up

[mint furnace]

No it doesn’t what

[spark valve]

it only has like 5 and most are relatively innocuous

[mint furnace]

It ain’t like a tally, they all flow

[scenic vigil]

Is there a list of retcons? I am genuinely curious

[gritty prawn]

which for both reasons you have insanely cool potential theoretical explanations that only elevate the game and lore so i dont even understand the fuss

[silk dirge]

the herrah retcon doesnt even matter bc herrah being a weaver makes more sense than her not

[gritty prawn]

replying to this i mean

[mint furnace]

Also yeah, @sinful nimbus if this is a debate cite your sources

Give us the half a million retcons that ruin the game

[next sable]

i thought herrah was always a weaver anyways

[gritty prawn]

has hornet theoreticaly not being able to do anything ever stopped her from doing something

[spark valve]

y'all should take a 5 minute break people need to chill the hell out

[maiden meteor]

Was it dialogue? iirc it was in Hornet’s kickstarter description

[gritty prawn]

other way around but yeah

[silk dirge]

i agree

[scenic vigil]

The only thing that makes a difference between herrah and a weaver is that herra is thicc

[sinful nimbus]

Voidheart being a retcon is the hotdog, PK's mischaracterization is the buns, the hive, lifeblood, and snail shaman stuff is the ketchup and mustard

[foggy fractal]

👹 we should call in the sigma mod squad

[foggy fractal]

mm yummy

[gritty prawn]

my girl does not care about the hive being an unfitting trainer she just wants badass bee moves

[foggy fractal]

now I gotta go eat fr

[next sable]

(but also, it was really sweet seeing vespa actually caring about hornet's future even if it was through a tough love training situation)

[mint furnace]

Are you calling life blood a retcon because it has a different name? Lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Snail Shamans now use void magic
3 queens is now canon
The hive is now renowned for their... steelwork?
Herrah is now a weaver
Void tendrils are hostile
Apparently PK's moulds didn't work
Apparently the pale family had no means of pacifying void
The Hollow Knight and Sealed Siblings don't lead into Silksong

[maiden meteor]

PK mischaracterization what. Original game already had Mr. Mushroom talk about wyrms pulling bugs in their thralls

[next sable]

void tendrils were always hostile what

[silk dirge]

what lifeblood retcon is there even

lifeblood was literally considered taboo in hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood didn't do what it did in Silksong even though Hornet says it was doing the same thing in Hallownest

[silk dirge]

probably for the same reason we see in wormways

[next sable]

maybe it's because hornet has a different biology than TK, who tf knows

[whole holly]

well, it didn't display same things in hallownest and pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

"a bit of a taboo" is a strong understatement if it was shunned for literally deforming yourself and the immediate wildlife around you

[spark valve]

most of these really just don't matter though even if they are retcons

[whole holly]

not really, salubra and joni as well as elina consumed it without effect we see in Silksong

[maiden meteor]

We could already see Lifeblood slowly spread in original game as well

[silk dirge]

blue child joni iirc was literally executed for being a heretic

[sinful nimbus]

PK mischaracterization and Void Heart sure do

[sinful nimbus]

No that was not ever implied

[scenic vigil]

Honestly soul magic is like 1 step before void shenaningans

[silk dirge]

its literally somewhere in the game i think

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[teal finch]

eh idk about this one

[next sable]

but anyways, man, i felt really bad for hornet during the red memory. ostracized as a kid, loses her mother soon after, then has the 3Q's hopes and dreams of the future riding on her. no wonder she regrets watching hallownest fall

[torn sentinel]

It did what it did on SS because it was injected on the Fauna, while on HK everyone knew to stay away from it

[sinful nimbus]

Joni is called the kindly heretic that's the most of it

[vague jasper]

What did they retcon about PK

[sinful nimbus]

even though Hornet says it was doing the same thing in Hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

He's apparently a bumbling idiot who killed anyone who didn't worship him now 🥴

[silk dirge]

i mean it says she was a heretic thats enough for me

[vague jasper]

Lifeblood has always been bad, not a retcon

[gritty prawn]

okay the void was always so elusive and inconsistent in the first game why would you stamp anything that doesnt confirm how you felt about it off as a retcon

[maiden meteor]

We have no timeframe between ending of HK and Hornet being kidnapped

[next sable]

she definitely thinks she failed her mother(s) in that regard and is also the reason why she's trying so hard to save pharloom

[whole holly]

everyone except joni, elina salubra

[mint furnace]

• how is that a retcon? You get void power from snail shamans
• barely a retcon, just was a theory and it’s very cool, flows well, adds to the story
• uh… it’s called expanding the story? Sorry the dead hive wasn’t able to explain their mastery of steelwork in hk
• when is the void not murderous
• eh.. now I’ll give you that one
• yuh? Pale king was experimenting with shit he didn’t know about as a last resort, we know the void is really dangerous
• I’m gonna just say, team cherry saying something years ago is not a binding word. I would say this a huge point for ALL of silksong. They are allowed to change stuff. It is okay. Everytime they do, it is done well and is not very noticeable

[sinful nimbus]

How void heart worked was very explicit

[vague jasper]

Where is that said

[whole holly]

not for joni, salubra, elina

[scenic vigil]

Is it stated in HK that he was a kind king? I don't remember much

[vague jasper]

Joni is dead

[spark valve]

you can rehabilitate that dialogue because it's not just about what the gods themselves do

[gritty prawn]

someoen fell for the characters facade that was meant to be dismantled by the viewer

[torn sentinel]

Just because we didn't see during hollow knight dosen't means it wasn't doing it and able to do it, we just got to see why it was taboo

[teal finch]

wait do you get void power from the snail shamans in hk though? i thought they were very heavily tied to soul in that game

[gritty prawn]

the guy definetly wasnt completely non evil

[whole holly]

knight combined his void with soul spells

[whole holly]

doesn't change the point

[mint furnace]

Oh, I never thought of that

[next sable]

definitely better than what the hell was going on in pharloom though, you gotta give him that lol

[mint furnace]

I guess that’s more of a retcon but also they are allowed for than 1 magic

[vague jasper]

Also lifeblood on normal dosage isn't lethal, it's the overdosing

[gritty prawn]

whatevers going on here feels like this guy is just salty his personal theories didnt get confirmed and now he has to make it everyones problem

[sinful nimbus]

OG Snail shaman said the void in the spells comes from The Knight and that the snail shamans had nothing to do with the void. Go read his dialogue on the wiki

Read the above discussion I had like 10 minutes ago

If the hive was famed for its metalwork it would be a lot more prevelant when we are exploring it

Void tendrils are under the control of The Knight after it gets Void heart

Kingsmoulds did in fact work, you can see that in the first game and its never implied they didn't work

It is still a retcon. That is my point

[maiden meteor]

Xero is straight up stated to be “Executed for crimes against the King” and his burial site was turned into a warning

[wary plover]

Bro is trolling or... snail shamans always used soul/void magic. Hivesteel was a thing back in hollow knight, void tendrils have always been hostile. Herrah was always a weaver. Bro stop trolling for the love of god if you aren't a lore fan don't troll the lore channel

[mint furnace]

Snail shamans aren’t forced to just use soul, king used void, why can’t they

[vague jasper]

He has been like this for 3 4 days

[mint furnace]

Jiji did too

[scenic vigil]

Also for the lifeblood, we pretty much see a bunch of areas where it spread for quite a bit. Who knows what stopped it from taking over Hallownest...

[sinful nimbus]

They explicitly had nothing to do with the substance in Hollow Knight 🥴
This is why I told you you read his dialogue

[sonic dawn]

what do we know about eva? apart from the fact that she is imprisoned without malice

[whole holly]

i guess, but joni literally had joni's blessing so not really, why wasn't it named joni's curse then?

[pseudo stone]

What is this Hiveknight wearing? Is it, perhaps, finely made steel?

[sage flame]

Why was GMS needing all of the silk?

[next sable]

careful with jiji there lol. steel soul mode canonicity is still very much in the aether with how much is gameplay mechanics and how much is actual lore

[vague jasper]

That doesn't tell they that can't use void

[sinful nimbus]

If you don't want to engage with the argument you can not do that instead of personally attacking me

Also I'm a girl

[sacred heath]

i think i can explain the whole “knight having to fight back the void tendrils in Silksong” bit

[teal finch]

have they always used void magic?

[sonic dawn]

what do we know about eva? do we know why she is imprisoned and what does it mean "without malice"?

[sinful nimbus]

It tells you they DIDN'T use void

[spark valve]

no

[lean temple]

There is a similar character in Steel Soul in silksong who uses Void

[gritty prawn]

true i find that super interesting . i like how hornet comments on how shitty conditions are for some bugs in the citadel and wonders if she ever looked enough into that stuff in her kingdom.

[maiden meteor]

Desolate Dive and Shade Souls are literally shaman’s spells too

[bright pond]

Do we know what that thing in Whiteward is?

[vague jasper]

Ask Joni

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah just showing one example of steel doesn't track with them being renowned for their steelwork

Everything else in the hive is organic

[next sable]

so eva was the weaver's attempts at making a pale/higher being, but eva is too fragile. her "prison" also happens to be the only thing keeping her alive

[vague jasper]

Where

[teal finch]

this is what i thought as well so im confused as to why people think this was established in hk

[maiden meteor]

some torture device probably

[spark valve]

no they aren't

[gritty prawn]

sorry abt that i use dude in a neutral way lmfao, but that aside it seems like youre really insistent on painting retcon as something inherently negative which is just.. untrue

[mint furnace]

Okay, Star, I think you’re just criticizing to criticize.

You seem like a guy who’s reminiscing on the “good ol days”.

Team cherry IS ALLOWED TO MAKE CHANGES IN THE LORE TO THEIR GAME. Even more, almost everytime they have its ADDITIVE STORYTELLING. HK never, NEVER explicitly states that things said in silksong we’re unable to happen, they just didn’t

[bright pond]

The sprites of that thing are labelled ||memory_spinner||

[sonic dawn]

how do you know all this

[next sable]

lore text elsewhere in weavenest atla

[wary plover]

If someone does something extremely unproductive and is negatively impacting the discussion should we maybe call them out? Because you said "void tendrils are now hostile" which to me seems like a troll

[whole holly]

that is really bad way to deflect argument, especially because overdosing is not harmful but blessing in hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

I never said they couldn't change stuff but this is all pointless

[scenic vigil]

Just because they didn't use it in HK doest mean they can't in SS. Also since you need pretty much some soul from each of the shamans I do believe its kinda like a combination of Soul with a bit of void to capture GMS.

[sinful nimbus]

Also personally attacking me by portraying me as a disgruntled old fan who doesn't like change is an Ad Hominem

[lean temple]

This is all literally #sk-discussion not #sk-lore

[mint furnace]

How is it pointless???? Would you just prefer they didn’t expand on the void, lifeblood, shamans, Hornet as a character, etc?

[vague jasper]

Becuz it's TK doing it lmao bruh what's your point

[sinful nimbus]

Yes yes yes and they didn't do that

[vague jasper]

TK can handle unlimited lifeblood

[whole holly]

basically pharlooms Soul Sanctum with Silk replacing Soul and added hospital vibes

[sinful nimbus]

None of those elements had any reason to be relevant to Pharloom

[mint furnace]

This has to be ragebaiting, I’m done

[bright pond]

it's also referred to as the ||Ward Machine|| so you're probably right. Would fit with the area too.

[whole holly]

but so can Joni

[silk dirge]

i think we also are way too absolutist on hk lore team cherry has a lore bible probably that could explain how everything we ever thought about hk lore is wrong

[lean temple]

Maybe stop repeating the same arguments in this channel and go to #sk-discussion (general)

[sinful nimbus]

Oh the good ol "Person I don't like is ragebaiting" argument

[gritty prawn]

i really like the idea that she was an early attempt at making life out of silk in general

[next sable]

possible dream dlc? might even be the godhome dlc access point for all we know

[vague jasper]

Where is that stated

[sinful nimbus]

Its story discussion

[silk dirge]

i genuinely think we are severely exaggerating what can be drawn from hk lore

[sacred heath]

Hallownest is also quite a bit more void-adjacent than Pharloom
which probably means the Shamans there know more about the Void
which would mean that they know better than to fuck with that shit

[gritty prawn]

like a predecessor to what lace would be, speaking of lace i love her storyline man

[whole holly]

charm belonged to her, she literally states that herself when you talk to her spirit

[sinful nimbus]

The shaman doesn't recognize it in fact he's completely unfamiliar with the substance

[bright pond]

I'm not sure... I don't think so though, dreams look even less important in this game than in HK

[lean temple]

Joni was likely blessed by the Lifeblood Beast for having faith in it. She's a heretic. Zylotol also talks about faith in Plasmium

[next sable]

don't forget phantom! although, it's pretty clear that gms is way more skilled at silk weaving than the weavers are

[sinful nimbus]

His dialogue pretty verbatim states "what IS THAT. dude this stuff is so wack clearly none of my species could do that"

[wary plover]

Chill, I reckon she's probably just clueless or roleplaying Eva? Or some other entity who only vaguely knows the state of the world

[silk dirge]

definitely doesnt sound like hes trying to hide anything

[scenic vigil]

If we can have bugs from outside of hallownest come into it why cant some snail shamans go to pharloom and go into hiding? Lifeblood being somewhat parasitic and spreading was pretty visible in HK already. And void would already make sense to be some sort of core of the "area" where the bugs are. Maybe the giant area where hallownest, pharloom and whatever other kingdoms are, are all placed on a GIANT pool of void so it would seep into each kingdom.

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it doesn't

[whole holly]

stop insulting her,with PK's propaganda, fact is lifeblood was inherently beneficial to joni and harmful to zylotol

[bright pond]

Also the spears on the device in Whiteward are referred to as "pins"

[silk dirge]

why were the snail mounds hidden then

[mint furnace]

I’ve heard some crazy takes in my day but “nah, they shouldn’t expand on the lore they made” is a new one lmao

[lean temple]

Insulting who? Joni is literally called a heretic

[next sable]

tbf, pins are kind of a catch-all phrase for anything sharp in pharloom

[silk dirge]

if you look at the level design in forgotten crossroads you can see the snail mound was built on top of a road where people wouldnt be able to see it

[gritty prawn]

damn really? havent gotten around defeating phantom yet (its lowk just too fun) theres so many gaps in my knowledge which is why i lowkey decided to engage with the community on a lore basis again much funner exploring the lore that way too

[silk dirge]

they were hiding shit for sure

[sacred heath]

well he was wrong on that last one
“Wow, my species would NEVER do that, what kind of stupid idiot would—“
smash cut to the Pharloom shamans nuking the kingdom with void

[bright pond]

that's fair, and one shouldn't rely on internal names either for that kind of stuff. Though I think it being called memory spinner has to mean something

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a matter of it not making diegetic sense, its just that original stuff is cooler than bringing up old stuff even though they were already fairly fleshed out and Void in particular was already a main element for a concluded story

[sinful nimbus]

Yes he was wrong but its also a retcon

[next sable]

ooh, then i won't spoil it for you. just, when you find some capsule that looks similar to where eva is kept, play the needolin near it

[spark valve]

which still indicates that the hallownest snails didn't use it

[whole holly]

heresy is title given by hallownest who worshipped Pale King, that is beside point, answer my argument

[silk dirge]

what

[lean temple]

What is the argument? Silksong shows Lifeblood is harmful. The end.

[maiden meteor]

“My friend. My friend. There's another quality about you yet. You didn't perchance visit my fourth aunt? She makes her home beside that Crystal Mount.” about Descending Dark

[silk dirge]

also can we just say snail shaman is in forgotten crossroads, the first area team cherry made

[sacred heath]

wait I’m confused does something in Skong retroactively claim the hallownest shamans fiddled with void
cause otherwise I don’t see. how that would be a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly he knew his aunt specifically was made out of void while simultaneously not knowing what void is and maintaining the position that no snail would ever use that strange substance

[teal finch]

what do we think about npcs calling it plasmium and not lifeblood in this game

[gritty prawn]

i cant wait. in general i cant wait for the wiki to fill up with all the lore tablets.. theres so much stuff i wanna look back on

[spark valve]

that's not the spell that's her soul which the knight absorbs to transmute the spell which was created by the sanctum shaman

[whole holly]

fact is lifeblood was inherently beneficial to joni and harmful to zylotol , which is mutually exclusive

[gritty prawn]

this is one thing that im also super curious abt. i guess plasmium is the "formal" name

[sinful nimbus]

When Hornet confronts the snail shamans they imply that the species as a whole is notorious for messing with void

[lean temple]

It's a foreign substance and Zylotol gave it a name

[silk dirge]

snail shaman is likely a very old character who guess what doesnt represent team cherrys thoughts

[wary plover]

Okay so I understand why ragebaiting is a thing though, sometimes you get lonely or you need to rile the atmosphere up a little bit so you trigger people just to play the fool and make them criticise you.

[bright pond]

pharloom and hallownest are two separate worlds and there's like two or three creatures at best who visited both. Why would they be called the same by bugs of two different worlds

[sinful nimbus]

Also the HK shaman says that the snails lack the skills to utilize void therefore the ones in SS using void is a retcon

[whole holly]

?

[next sable]

it's totally possible that they just came up with a different name because it's a foreign substance that pharloom has never seen before

[sinful nimbus]

Then why'd they write any of his dialogue and provide no hints that he was misleading in the first game?

[bright pond]

yeah exactly

[gritty prawn]

yeah that does make sense

[pseudo stone]

No? They specifically say "our family" not "our people"

[sinful nimbus]

That is generally not how writing characters works

[mint furnace]

Why can’t we normalize joy baiting, create fabricated beliefs to make everyone happier

[silk dirge]

thats called silkposting

[wary plover]

Okay so a few things, they used soul magic not void magic. It was explained that void is drawn to souls.

[sinful nimbus]

No he specifies "us snails" and "my kind"

[silk dirge]

the fact that if you look at level design you can see the mounds were hidden from public view shows some shit is up

[lean temple]

The game says it had the same mutative powers in Hallownest. I don't care if it's a retcon. Joni was blessed for believing in it or something, the Lifeblood Beast so far isn't in Pharloom. Or yknow just a retcon. I don't care. Lifeblood is harmful.

[maiden meteor]

I really don’t see how Shaman’s soul giving us ability to combine soul and void would NOT imply that shamans had some knowledge of it

[wary plover]

Because you don't get burning testosterone in joybaiting

[silk dirge]

i dont think the snail shamans would hide their mounds if nothing was up

[teal finch]

this is how im interpreting it too btw, my comment was more of an open discussion

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't imply he was misleading or whatever

[spark valve]

because the shaman explains that it's just finding a source of power that melds the knight's void with the spell

[sacred heath]

hm. i can think of a couple explanations for that
Maybe so much time has passed since HK that the Shamans have had enough time to learn about the void and fiddle with it? maybe that original Shaman left the kingdom and told em

[foggy fractal]

The ever helpful Snail Shaman: That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

[sinful nimbus]

Heck the one other character that meets him says that he seems perfectly chill and willing to help you

[mint furnace]

This is why I shall be secretly administering 500mg of estrogen daily to all silksong players

[spark valve]

we know what the shaman contributes! it's not void!

[gritty prawn]

also looking back on it when the snail shaman reveal was dropped in silksong i felt so dumb for not immediately clocking it the designs are so obvious in hindsight. i guess i would have benefitted from a hk replay before ss after all

[scenic vigil]

Because the first game was written before SS was even a thing. And do they mention snails always using void in SS? The wiki only has the first meeting there and I can't see the rest anymore.

[sinful nimbus]

I not only didn't clock it but I began to ship Caretaker x Church Maid not knowing they were siblings 😔

[silk dirge]

idk i definitely get trying to hide something vibes from this

[sinful nimbus]

Worst of luck tbh

[next sable]

eh, call it a retcon and move on. doesn't severely retract from the narrative anyways other than "oh what, i didn't think that would happen", which in itself has some value considering that's how we even get to act 3

[teal finch]

what made it click for me was groal pulling out vengeful spirit and then the pickup we get once we beat him

[whole holly]

still mutually exclusive, how can Joni be blessed with harmful substance, justifying it leads to more plotholes.

[sinful nimbus]

OK well vibes isn't really an argument

[bright pond]

same

[green yoke]

The two sides here are "it seemed obvious to me that the Snails didn't know about void" and "it seemed obvious to me that the Snails knew about void" and I'm not sure there's any real discussion to be had here since both start in completely different foundations

[silk dirge]

in this case it is ive read a lot of characters who speak like this when they are hiding something

[sinful nimbus]

The only actual vibes that matter are the ones TC wrote about the snail shaman in the artbook with a character saying he gives off a friendly vibe

[sacred heath]

joni died of an overdose

[lean temple]

Because it takes over your mind. You don't see it as harmful. Its allure is that it makes you feel healthy so you consume more so it can take over.

[whole holly]

proof?

[sinful nimbus]

that is not an argument what

[gritty prawn]

everybody losing dont even ask a lacenet shipper how they feel after silksong

[scenic vigil]

You can be friendly but still lie about the origins of some powers.

[sonic dawn]

where

[whole holly]

is that confirmed to be true in HK?

[sinful nimbus]

why would he do that

[sacred heath]

i
i thought that was implied by
by their fuckijg grave being full of Lifeblood

[gritty prawn]

actually most ive seen are jumping over hurdles to still make it work but its out of my caring field anyway. just think its funny

[sinful nimbus]

Also he's specifically noted to be willing to help which wouldn't track if he was misleading us

[lean temple]

It takes over Zylotol's mind so by extension it did similar things in HK.

[maiden meteor]

Honestly any retcon conversation can be cut with a fact that TC know their lore better than any of us and therefore most likely knew what they were doing

[silk dirge]

this

[sinful nimbus]

Lacenet got taken out back and shot once the Caretaker said she had the mind of a child

[silk dirge]

we dont have the tc lore bible

[bright pond]

Alsoooo uuuh do we have an explanation for Pharloom's void not being united under the Knight's will?

[whole holly]

it doesn't inherently prove anything especially because joni saw it as blessing

[silk dirge]

theres probably so many things we have wrong