sk-lore

[winged trench]

The abyss seems to just be pervasive at that level everywhere

[mighty crag]

We never never get to see the sun

[winged trench]

Im curious if any kingsoms successfully established above ground

[mighty crag]

If there's any

[craggy smelt]

no sun
no sky
only underground bug kingdoms forever

[mighty crag]

How would the surface look?

[lusty forum]

I mean the radiance was the sun. We killed it remember?

[vital goblet]

The abyss to me has a layout similar to the mantle of earth. Just kinda sitting under everything, occasionally popping up like lava

[edgy stone]

I feel like everything has probably already been found but it's kinda odd that we get significantly less about silks origin than the other gods

[hasty flint]

it'd be hard to pick a standard way of measuring time without a solar cycle. has anyone mentioned the word 'year' in game

[winged trench]

We see it in game

[craggy smelt]

the 'surface' we see in Pharloom is like the one in Hallownest, just a very large cavern

[lean temple]

From the Nameless Town it's just a desolate desert

[edgy stone]

We know bugs consider their age so there has to be a system

[lean temple]

That's a very good point actually

[edgy stone]

Same with pharloom relying on music

[brisk thunder]

The whole Pharloom is just a big underground hole

[wanton epoch]

Do you guys think pharloom was corrupt before grandmother silk? Like did the underworks slavery system exist before her

[hasty flint]

pharloom postdates silk

afaik

[lean temple]

The whole Citadel didn't exist before her I believe

[wanton epoch]

Oh yeah

[winged trench]

Grandmother silk existed long before the citadels existence, though the corrupt systems were set up by the weavers

[craggy smelt]

I think the Weavers are said to have built the kingdom as a whole
they raised up the Citadel, and then eventually the Citadel destroyed other factions like the coral knights and the clover bugs

[lean temple]

We also know the Ants and likely others tried resisting GMS

[wanton epoch]

Why did they make the underworks system tho?

[hasty flint]

on another note, I don't know how exactly pale beings work or where they really come from. like, yes, they can come from the union of two other pale beings, but what force in the world creates them initially

[wild zinc]

Lowkey silksong puts some things into perspective and I think the pale king is kinda based now idk

[wanton epoch]

He was always based ngl

[craggy smelt]

no idea

[winged trench]

They were valued as its protectors for some time via the effigies before they all left

[lean temple]

Big mystery

[lusty forum]

...The winner of the "worst father of the year"?

[winged trench]

Noone knows

[dark rune]

anyone else sad that the upgrades in silksong seem locked behind pretty random stuff? like why would i get a wall climb from a silly thing called sister splinter

[edgy stone]

Pale king seems to be the only godlike entity weve seen to actually give a fuck about its creations

[hasty flint]

yeah i figured it was yet another mystery, its something i like to think about though

[edgy stone]

Or well worshippers in pale kings case

[wild zinc]

Well he wasn’t a good dad but he was a good king

[lean temple]

It's infrastructure for the Citadel to function. As to why they're systems are so cruel then that's another question.

[winged trench]

You dont get it from sister splinter, you get it from the weaver

[edgy stone]

Even unn who seemed to love the mosskin was more of a creature that was just there instead of an active part of the mosskins life

[dark rune]

yeah but sister splinter is the thing you fight for it

[mighty crag]

It isn't dropped directly from her

[wanton epoch]

Yeah like r the weavers just inherently evil assholes

[hasty flint]

pale beings seem to be a special subtype of higher being with greater power and an innate drive to pull bugs into its sway

[lusty forum]

It's also interesting that Silk seems desperate to make a child of higher birth while the pale king finds them so disposable that he literally threw MULTIPLE eggs into the abyss full of them

[mighty crag]

She's just in the middle of the road to it

[hasty flint]

pale king was surprisingly self aware of this it turns out

[dark rune]

it just seems like a random choice having it be sister splinter as the wall behind the wall climb

[edgy stone]

Pale king found a mate that mass produces them

[craggy smelt]

the Weavers seemed pretty sinister, even if they were worshipped - one shrine in Moss area mentions that she won't prey on the people anymore, which implies that Weavers would prey on people otherwise

[wanton epoch]

I mean the radiance was fucking him in the ass he was desperate

[mighty crag]

It's like walking in the street then there's a hole in the ground

[lean temple]

Silk doesn't have a husband so it's not easy making children

[edgy stone]

His kind probably also have less of a drive to produce children

[winged trench]

Mother silk is heavily motivated by her desire for daughters while pale kings goal was only to pull bugs into his thrall

[edgy stone]

Wyrms seem to be an eternal race that have the sole purpose of making and leading a kingdom

[craggy smelt]

interestingly, White Lady also expresses a desire to reproduce

[lusty forum]

That's actually a really good point, which leads to the other observation that: Hallownest seems to have a TON of higher beings

[edgy stone]

Heirs are inherently detrimental to pale kings goal

[craggy smelt]

pale beings seem to want to build and breed

[winged trench]

White lady seems like a similar type of pale being to silk

[lusty forum]

Either Pharloom only had one and it was unusual for that, or Hallownest was just a cespool of them and that's what caused the majority of the issues there

[wanton epoch]

Grandmother silk didn’t really have someone directly threatening her right she’s just kinda chilling

[hasty flint]

well, not so eternal. unless bardoon is wrong and there are more wyrms, just very far away and unknown

[lean temple]

WL is a Root, we don't know if Silk has a kind

[dark rune]

the millions of "higher beings" in the abyss too:

[edgy stone]

The biggest one is unn honestly

[hasty flint]

we have no clue how big the world of hollow knight is

[tawdry flare]

Hallownest is really unusual for having like four higher beings in it

[edgy stone]

Pale king being in hallownest makes sense

[lusty forum]

The abyss seems to be everywhere, I wouldn't count that

[gray iris]

why is there a bird in hollow knight 2 i cant believe team cherry put a bird in my bug game

[winged trench]

Wellni mean at least goal wise

[dark rune]

what even makes something qualify as a "higher being"

[dark rune]

i mean how pk dumped tons of babies down there

[edgy stone]

Wyrms seem to actively be driven to places somewhat already occupied so it makes sense hed run into the radiance

[gray iris]

are there bird people and bird animals and bird god too

[dark rune]

and since vessels can read the tablets, they qualify

[tawdry flare]

A creature of immense power, usually seems to create or ascend life

[gray iris]

everything in hk is bug how can they put a bird

[lusty forum]

We have radiance, white lady, the slug, and Pale King. Am I missing any?

[edgy stone]

The vessels are 100% higher being

[dark rune]

they betray us

[craggy smelt]

the Nightmare Heart

[lusty forum]

I guess Hornet also counts

[tawdry flare]

The Nightmare Heart also visited

[hasty flint]

nightmare heart, but it's sorta transient

[edgy stone]

They are born of 3 higher beings or 2 and a weird substance that kinda counts as 1

[tawdry flare]

NO!!

[lusty forum]

This shows up later, I don't count this

[craggy smelt]

Hallownest did seem lousy with higher beings

[dark rune]

hornet is half higher being

[craggy smelt]

potentially also the lifeblood creature, dunno about them

[gray iris]

it is so sad solaire of astora had to throw 1000000 babies into the abyss to fight the radiance

[wanton epoch]

Is queen vespa a higher being I forgot

[craggy smelt]

no

[edgy stone]

Hornet is like half and 1/2 higher being

[lusty forum]

She's enough of one that the generic ending of Silksong indicates she can fill the role of one under certain circumstances

[tawdry flare]

That’s her absorbing one’s power

[lusty forum]

How much of that is her ability to bind them to her is a decent question

[craggy smelt]

hornet and TK can become higher beings

[gray iris]

my favorite part of hk 1 is when u get to the end of path of pain and confront solaire for throwing his babies into the abyss

[edgy stone]

The weavers arent higher beings but seem to carry higher being silk within them or at least firstborn ones are

[gray iris]

it is peak cinema emotional

[dark rune]

most of silksong's bosses oversimplified boil down to "im some weirdly powerful thing or some random person in pharloom"

[winged trench]

Higher beings so far

Nightmare heart
Radiance
Void entity? (Maybe)
Pale king (wyrm)
White lady
Lifeblood entity
Mother silk

[lusty forum]

I think void entity would be a LOWER being if anything

[neat sandal]

isn't dirtmouth surface

[hasty flint]

the fay bird and mister mushroom also seem to have a rapport, which is fascinating to me

[craggy smelt]

higher beings are said to just be those who 'exist above all others', the criteria is vague

[lusty forum]

I did forget about the lifeblood entity though

[gray iris]

my head canon is the life blood entity is raspberry blue flavor

[wanton epoch]

Nah I think they confirmed it’s underground

[dark rune]

then again, its pretty possible (likely in fact?) that dirtmouth is underground

[gray iris]

it is probably delicious

[tawdry flare]

The Lord of Shades definitely qualifies I think but they only show up in one ending and the Lifeblood Beast is a weirdo who may or may not be a Higher Being I have no idea

[wanton epoch]

The only think that’s actually above ground in HK is land of storms I think

[dark rune]

if it was aboveground wed have day in dirtmouth and that would be cursed

[gray iris]

do u think radiance meat or mother silk meat taste better

[winged trench]

The "confirmation" was by leth like 10 years ago so im not entirely sure if that completely holds up
Would fit if true though

[edgy stone]

Silk is silk

[dark rune]

combine into hotdog

[craggy smelt]

Land of Storms could also be underground, there are sandstorms in the underground caves around Pharloom and Hallownest
maybe natural, maybe magic - Pale Wyrm's carcass produces wind

[edgy stone]

Silk has no bones or meat she is a being of pure silk

[gray iris]

cuz people eat cicada and moth is more similar to sicafa than spider

[edgy stone]

Youd be eating silk

[gray iris]

and spiders are probably very bitter

[wanton epoch]

I feel like day doesn’t exist in hollow knight I mean look at silksongs surface that shit is barren

[tawdry flare]

Are we sure about this

[dark rune]

no day so i think its still right

[gray iris]

and toxic

[hasty flint]

shit you're right it does make wind, that could be the cause of the storms

[wanton epoch]

Maybe the sun exploded or something lol

[edgy stone]

We see her unravel

[cursive sinew]

Windy caves make sense. I dont thinkwe have storms or something?

[tawdry flare]

Oh yeah I forgot about that

[craggy smelt]

the 'Gods of Thunder and Rain' could be the source of storms, even in death

[gray iris]

you could feed all the grubs from hk1 after killing the radiance for months probably

[edgy stone]

Radiance is also made of pure dream essence and cant really be eaten

Now the white lady and the pale king can be eaten 100%

[craggy smelt]

they might also be higher beings, but who knows... Godseeker thinks every damn thing is a god

[gray iris]

but u cannot feed all the fleas after killing mother silk she tastes too gross and too much sticky tough thread

[tawdry flare]

Mmm… tree

[craggy smelt]

i guess WL would be like a root vegetable... a big carrot or potato

[edgy stone]

The fact theyre thunder and rain makes me think they're not actually gods

[lusty forum]

All I know is that if anything happens to the bell beast, Hornet is going full-on John Wick on whoever was dumb enough to mess with it

[edgy stone]

Most civilizations put the blame of thinder and rain on gods

[hasty flint]

i dont know if radiance was always pure dream essence. how would you find her to shove her into the hollow knight if she didn't have physicality at some point

[gray iris]

what is the lore reason the radiance put orange jello on all the bugs

[edgy stone]

Its the most common type of god

[hasty flint]

we know you can shove physical things into the dream realm (white palace)

[edgy stone]

I think they probably reasoned the existence of rain and thunder with gods

[craggy smelt]

to mind control them

[edgy stone]

And someone probably took those mantles

[gray iris]

but are they delicious

[winged trench]

The infection started by bugs "seeing her in their dreams"
She doesnt exist in the physical realm

[hasty flint]

not anymore obviously

[dark rune]

>radiance have all bugs
>radiance happy
>radiance sleep
>pale king arrive
>pale king take bugs
>radiance angy
>radiancerevenge.mp4

[gray iris]

if bugs came with orange jello on them irl we can probably set up a system where we farm it by putting them in a colony near the jello moth

[craggy smelt]

it would be like the Godseekers to worship the weather too...
there were giant corpses in the Land of Storms called 'old gods' in the files, so I'm sure those were also worshipped
there were a lot of them though, so its unclear if they were higher beings or just very large bugs

[gray iris]

the entire setting of hk1 is a good farm for orange jello

[neat sandal]

where they confirmed?
I think I saw cloud at Hallownest's Crown

[dark rune]

new renewable material! orange jello

[elder epoch]

Why does hornet pass out in the beginning of the game? Was that ever explained?

[edgy stone]

I reason just strong bugs

[wanton epoch]

Period cramps

[lusty forum]

Proximity to void maybe?

[gray iris]

i wonder if there are moths that put blue jello on bugs and mind control them instead like lifeblood but that is probably a butterfly as it is butterfly shaped

[tawdry flare]

Concussion

[tawdry flare]

WHAT

[elder epoch]

Sounds reasonable

[gray iris]

hk3 should be fight the blue butterfly final boss

[lusty forum]

Yeah there is also the fact that she just fell an unbelievable distance

[dark rune]

not moving long time

[edgy stone]

I want the lifeblood higherbeing to be a god consumed by lifeblood and not the creator of jt

[dark rune]

when she did move it was downwards for an amount of time that cant be too good for the spinal column

[edgy stone]

I think it makes lifeblood even more fucked up

[winged trench]

Demigod vs blood clots

[dark rune]

i think the lifeblood beast could very well be a higher being

promising more life

only problem is lifeblood's scarcity

[winged trench]

Definitely, it clearly has similar abilities to radiance

[gray iris]

i thought the bell bearing eater is a higher being

[dark rune]

so few are attracted

[tawdry flare]

I want lifeblood to be a very slow and focused insidious thing

[winged trench]

Big centipede i think

[elder epoch]

Oh yeah I'm reading the dialog from the beginning and she says that she was captive for a long time and temporarily lost her strength

[dark rune]

imagine you get all stiff and cant move very well and then get dropped off the empire state building

or perhaps the burj khalifa

[gray iris]

cuz there is like a spider god and a moth god and those are different species of arthropod

there should be a centipede one too

[lusty forum]

trilobite god

[dark rune]

what about those oval guys in forgotten crossroads

who made them

[gray iris]

and yhe abyss is like crabs and snails and shit i think

[tawdry flare]

no no no wait wait wai

[tawdry flare]

The Snails aren’t Void

[lusty forum]

Horseshoe crab God

[hasty flint]

at the start of the game I thought hornet was sick with void corruption because she was facedown in a pool of the stuff for god knows how long in the dream no more ending before it all flowed away and that was why she was falling over

[gray iris]

yeah the abyss is shells so some molusm

molusk

and hk2 they put a fucking bird so like thats a whole can of worms

[winged trench]

Shamans are fascinated by the void but i do not believe they are related at all

[tawdry flare]

The Shamans in Pharloom are but the ones in Hallownest “never thought to look there”

[gray iris]

oh and worms the worms are not really well represented but they exist like the ppl u give lore items to

[hasty flint]

shamans aren't made of void (except maybe a couple dead ones?)

[tawdry flare]

No, that’s just the Knight absorbing the Shaman’s soul and melding it with their own void

[dark rune]

we dont know how long it was between hk and ss, couldve been 100 years

[lusty forum]

Oh yeah also, Hornet made a comment about void being drawn to soul, so I guess that explains where the knight's ability to effortlessly control soul comes from

Or at least, it's ability to harvest it

[winged trench]

They are the child of a pale being

[tawdry flare]

That’s probably their wyrm half, void just kinda eats or takes over soul

[hasty flint]

yeah thats also a fact i slowly started to realize over the course of playing

[lusty forum]

Snail shamens also indicated that Hornet should have seen their use of the void comming

They are the only other people we know without question used soul for things like spells

[tawdry flare]

Yeah it’s odd

[lusty forum]

And they have an affinity with the void. There is a clear connection to soul and void here

[vital goblet]

And Groat

[hasty flint]

wouldnt surprise me if the pale king had a few snail shamans as advisors on the vessel project

[dark rune]

her voicelines sound less young, which might be because they thought it was annoying hearing hornet say "SHAW!" every 2 seconds of gameplay or it has been a while

[lusty forum]

Groat seems to have learned it FROM the dead snail there

Also... shudder we don't talk about Groat

(A FIVE MINUTE WALKBACK??? What in the WORLD was TC thinking?!?)

[vital goblet]

Oh yea I forgot that guy was there, I’m too busy having flashbacks

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@zippius used /npcs quest name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[vital goblet]

It’s not too bad if you find the hidden bench though

[lusty forum]

I DID have the hidden bench

It was still like 5 minutes!

[lavish idol]

Huh

[hasty flint]

"not from a place my kind ever thought to look"
so that was a fucking lie

[lusty forum]

That was mostly to avoid getting hit at all though, because they stuck the most annoying enemies in the game to dodge before the boss!

But I digress

[tawdry flare]

So something either changed between HK and SS OR the Shamans in Pharloom have an addiction to void that the others don’t OR the guy is just Stupid OR Team Cherry retconned this

[lusty forum]

I mean we kind of knew that, because the place you get the other two void spells from are both snails

DDark and Shade Soul both come from snail corpses

[hasty flint]

he wasnt invited to the secret void groupchat

[lusty forum]

So they clearly knew SOMETHING about the void, although perhaps those who dabbled didn't live long enough to really tell anyone else?

But yeah SS snails imply that hornet knowing about them meant she should have known they messed with void, and Hornet doesn't even dispute this. So clearly they know SHE knows they have some kind of relation to it

[tawdry flare]

#sk-lore message

[nova sluice]

It has been maybe hundreds of years between HK and SS, many things changed. Imagine the snails seeing all the things the Knight did using Void and now they want to tap into that power too

[lusty forum]

See my above message

[hasty flint]

that's possible too, maybe hk1 snail shaman told everyone else and it started a trend

[lusty forum]

As an aside, Hornet now might be the most important figure in the world since she's like the only one who has any good will from the void towards her lol

If the void IS as omnipresent as it seems, that's a really important trait to have lol

[tawdry flare]

Iselda and Cornifer probably do

Oh wait they’re probably dead nvm

[dark rune]

Who would win:

Half-higher being who has lived for several hundred years and watches the rise and fall of kingdoms

Boot (it can squash)

[hasty flint]

yeah, that means the pale king really did fundamentally alter the playing field with the vessel plan

[lusty forum]

Yeah but I get the feeling that Hornet will outlast pretty much everyone who was nice to the knight in Hallownest by a lot

[lusty forum]

Just not at ALL how he thought he was going to lol

Guess the legacy of Hallownest will live forever in one way at least

[dark rune]

i wonder if hornet is already older than the pale king lived to be?

[tawdry flare]

We really have no idea of knowing

[lusty forum]

I would doubt that

[hasty flint]

we cant know but my gut instinct is "unlikely"

[dark rune]

yeah im guessing pk was in 1k-2k range but idk

[lusty forum]

I suppose it depends on how much time has passed between games, but stuff would have been in MUCH worse states of disrepair if that much time had passed in HK itself

[elfin niche]

They're bugs, he lived for 200 days and that was proper impressive like

[lusty forum]

Plus the blue lake probably would have been empty at that point

[vital goblet]

Hornet does mention that she’s old several times in SS, but she also seemed to have witness vessels try to do their thing quite a bit so it’s likely she was old in HK already as well. I’m under the assumption the jailers came to hallownest somewhat shortly after the ending of HK, and that it hasn’t been too long between games, depending on the actual distance between kingdoms

[gray iris]

why is there so many maggots in hk2 where they come from

[nova sluice]

Half Weaver, Half Wyrm, trained by Vespa, friends with the Void, friends with MrMush, owned a favor by Silk, artificial sister made with soul silk, arsenal of weapons under the hood

[dark rune]

im guessing 200-300 in hk and 500-700 in silksong

[winged trench]

They grow in caves, we see larvae

[gray iris]

do like a bunch of flies come seasonally to pharloom or something

[dark rune]

uuhhh... mlukefarm

[lusty forum]

Her character sheet is getting a little ridiculous at this point lol

[hasty flint]

and possibly with a failed attempt at making a god fused to her to let her power nap on benches

[lusty forum]

She also knows many different weapon styles

[dark rune]

ig what i was saying here is i wish the bosses had more significance to the story

[winged trench]

Hornet is a very complicated character in origin

[lusty forum]

And has the undertale respawn power, although it's unclear how cannon that is for Hornet vs the knight

[winged trench]

Probably non-canon for both

[tawdry flare]

Not canon for either

[nova sluice]

Oh ye! She even got Eva
This is insane

[dark rune]

i have to get up again in a little under 5 hours 🎉

[lusty forum]

Steel soul makes sense to be cannon, although that does make shade skips a little cannon-breaking as well lol

Not that they weren't breaking plenty else already

[winged trench]

Not everything in the videogame exists to reflect deeper lore

[hasty flint]

and like, a bunch of other crests including a torn up remnant of what would have been a kingdom-consuming parasite root that she's bent to her will

[dark rune]

i know but it was nice in hk, like how the watcher knights were defending lurien

[lusty forum]

True but it's never not worth at least asking which stuff falls into which category

[winged trench]

My headcanon for shade lore is they are the shade of another fallen vessel in your path

[gray iris]

my favorite character in hk2 is conchfly it is so sad u kill conchflys wife then he take revenge he look like patrick star

[lusty forum]

I mean... do they ever say they are mates?

[dark rune]

er are you talking about shade stuff

[lusty forum]

They could be siblings

[gray iris]

yes in te journal

[lusty forum]

Ah ok, missed the journal

[dark rune]

for normal mode to be canon the knight would need the power to create energy

[hasty flint]

they don't say "these are mates" but the entry talks about taking mates more generally so clearly hornet thinks they are

[lusty forum]

Also benches would need to be the most powerful artifacts in the world

[gray iris]

i think the implication is clearly they are mates

[lusty forum]

Which... is an amazing headcannon

[dark rune]

pharloom realized this, and thus charged obscenely for them

[tawdry flare]

Declaring the Loop to no longer be canon was Fortnite’s biggest mistake

[lusty forum]

True!

[hasty flint]

why else do you think pharloom charges for every sit in them? its some real quantum regeneration tech they spent billions on, they gotta recoup cash somehow

[nova sluice]

One thing about the journal is that when we talk about canon or solid information what is written there is Hornet's understanding of it, what could not reflect reality on some instances

[dark rune]

silly pharloom, rejecting weaver science and then letting themselves benefit from quantum machines.

[gray iris]

because all the bugs are gone hollow and when u rest u rest it passes time for their soul to be regenerated and put back into place they are cursed to die and come back in the video game by abyss or something idk

and when they become abyssed in act 3 it is like super hollow

[lusty forum]

Yeah actually... This idea becomes very interesting in relation to a different character and what we understand from them: the pale king and void. Most of what we know about the void in the first game comes either from the PK or from people who are using the research the PK conducted as their basis of fact. But clearly the void is not as empty as it seemed to PK, if the ending is anything to go off of.

[dark rune]

nothings really hollow

youll have to trust the billions that went into bench development, with the only explanation from the God of Bench being "bc i said so"

WAIT A SECOND

BENCH MAKERS KINDA QUALIFY AS HIGHER BEINGS

[lusty forum]

Menderbug

[dark rune]

everyone loves sitting at a bench

[tawdry flare]

Flick is a Higher Being…

[dark rune]

they draw in the beings

[dark rune]

menderbug is a higher being confirmed

im on 2:27 AM delirium and its wonderful

[gray iris]

both knight and hornet are abyss and the abyss control the respawn because the soul of all the mobs is cycled through the abyss thats why when your character an abyss character sit it makes the abyss respawn them

[dark rune]

hornet is not void

[tawdry flare]

You should go: To Sleep

[nova sluice]

Ye, exactly. Also things like "Herrah is just a beast, a Queen but a simple beast" was a point of view where Weavers could be hiding their true nature to not be hunted by Pharloom. Things like that

[gray iris]

but like u leak black shit when undie

[umbral moth]

hornet makes it very explicit she's not void in hk

[gray iris]

but u leak black shit when u die

[dark rune]

??

[neat sandal]

so who created silk heart?

[umbral moth]

refer to confessor jiji, you leave behind a stain of regret when you die

[gray iris]

i do not care she have abyss in her

[tawdry flare]

We’re not having this conversation again, Starchy.

[gray iris]

shut up nerd

[dark rune]

anyone else on first hk playthrough thought that the jiji door was gonna lead to some brand new area

[umbral moth]

i probably would have if i didn't already know jiji was there qosjdkwjs

[lusty forum]

Exactly. I think one thing SS gives us is critical context about the perspectives of the bugs of hallownest. We even get perspectives on things like lifeblood, a whole new idea of the stuff from people without the cultural influence of hallownest. And we gain just as much information about the bugs of hallownest, and the perspectives they had, as we do about the objective natures of some of the things in the world, from SS's mentions of this stuff

[last token]

My theory is after being in the Black Egg Temple in the ending to HK1, she absorbed a bit of the Void. Not enough to fundamentally change her, but enough to let her respawn like her sibling.

[lusty forum]

Or... Ghost had been helping her the entire time

[umbral moth]

or it's like jiji said, you leave behind a stain of regret when you die

[last token]

Or that.

[umbral moth]

and it can manifest as void, regardless of who it is

[lusty forum]

Perhaps that is the source of the void in the first place?

[last token]

Or maybe a mix of all of the above.

[elfin niche]

I think deaths are just not canon.

[lusty forum]

It could explain where it comes from, and why it is in both kingdoms

[dark rune]

doesnt make sense except if sealed siblings isnt the ending you get

[lusty forum]

Life just creates the void through leaving stains of regret and death

[gray iris]

u literally put a cocoon and when u go back to break it it have black particles how is she not have void in her

[lusty forum]

She says pretty directly in the first game she doesn't have the void in her I thought

[umbral moth]

she does

[winged trench]

You have to jump through a lot of hoops to explain respawns when its way easier to just say they're gameplay contrivances

[gray iris]

well its hk2 now

[elfin niche]

Loads of Weavers were captured and killed all over Pharloom.

[tawdry flare]

Respawning isn’t canon

[umbral moth]

she says she doesn't share that emptiness the knight has, yeah

[last token]

In the canon ending Hornet plunged her needle into THK's head and we don't know exactly what happens to her after that.

[lusty forum]

Yeah... I shoudn't have brought it up ugh

[elfin niche]

If you had to have a lore explanation for what is a gameplay mechanic, I would say the cocoons are left by dead Weavers who went that way before you.

Really I suspect only Steel Soul is canon and therefore there never were any cocoons.

[gray iris]

i dont care its like dark souls or elden ring the respawn is controlled by the tree absorbing your soul or the dark soul or something

[tawdry flare]

Ignore them, they’re being indolent

[winged trench]

There are no canon endings, via team cherry
We see her waking up in the ending cutscene after that

[nova sluice]

I honestly like that different tribes and cities have different understandings of the Void, and we can even see an abandoned Weaver base close to it, probably to study the Void and bugs around it

[tawdry flare]

Well they’re all canon but

[last token]

I think they said that to hide spoilers.

[lusty forum]

The cacoons are Hornet's natural defense mechanism. She places one down right before death then teleports to the nearest bench to recover

[tawdry flare]

No she didn’t? Also DNM and ETV are canon to Silksong

[gray iris]

how does that make sense she say in hk1 no void in her but now hk2 is out and her cocoon have abyss in it

[tawdry flare]

yep this is the one

[nova sluice]

It really feels like a story and world building with 10+ years of dedication put into it

[lusty forum]

She can ONLY teleport to benches though

[tawdry flare]

Me when I do cool visual effects

[winged trench]

Black particles dont immediately equal abyss i think
Looks more like decomposed corpse to me

[gray iris]

no it is literally abyss

[tawdry flare]

No it literally isn’t

[winged trench]

Where does it even imply that slightly

[last token]

(THK = The Hollow Knight/Pure Vessel, just to be clear.)

[gray iris]

shut up nerd

[winged trench]

Good discussion

[tawdry flare]

Yeah, she didn’t even attack them

[lusty forum]

Whoever related back to jiji's quote about leaving "stains and regrets" earlier, I think they were pretty spot on

Not necessarily void, just something that looks and appears similar

[nova sluice]

Weirdly enough sometime we end up on the exit of a room instead of a bench
It's also crazy to think of a cocoon inside a memory

[empty sierra]

the collector dies with black particles is he void?

[tawdry flare]

That’s just the First Sinner not killing you

[lusty forum]

Objectively yes

[tawdry flare]

You can’t- that isn’t-

[empty sierra]

what

[gray iris]

yes

[empty sierra]

is he actually void?

[lusty forum]

Wait did you not know?

[nova sluice]

The collector is the most outlier case we have so far

[tawdry flare]

Yes 😭

[empty sierra]

i was genuinely asking

[lusty forum]

Yeah that's why you don't get soul from hitting him

[empty sierra]

you dont??

[gray iris]

the collector is void 100% he is the shit solaire put in his soldiers

[lusty forum]

Nope

[umbral moth]

the collector is a failed version of one of those guards in the white palace if memory serves

[empty sierra]

waht i dont remmeber that

[umbral moth]

which are made using void

[lusty forum]

You can only get soul from dream nailing it, not regular hits

[empty sierra]

but i didnt know the guards were void

damn

[tawdry flare]

The Wingsmoulds were void too

[nova sluice]

Ye

[empty sierra]

what else dissolves into black particles

[umbral moth]

both the kingsmould and the guards are stated to be made using a mixture of soul and void

[last token]

Since the Void hungers for Soul, his hunger must have manifested in a really wacky way where he's fine just keeping pets.

[nova sluice]

Weaponizing Void is such a good idea

[winged trench]

All the white palace enemies were made by pk using void

[last token]

Probably part of failed Kingsmould conditioning.

[tawdry flare]

I don’t think the buzzsaws are void

[lusty forum]

The snail's plan in SS was literally doing this too. It seems to be the most consistent way to deal with rogue higher beings

[elfin niche]

Hornet literally tells you in HK she's not Void.

[umbral moth]

too bad it almost killed the kingdom but you know, just another tuesday for hornet

[elfin niche]

It would make no sense for her to be Void, she was never intended to contain the Radiance.

[lusty forum]

Also the red memory I feel would make mention of her void nature if she were

[umbral moth]

exactly right

[elfin niche]

She was to secure an alliance with Herah, who actually wanted her treated well.

The cocoons are just a game concept.

[gray iris]

loool is say im working at mcdonald february does that mean i cant quit and work at burger kind december

[nova sluice]

I mean, honestly...aside the chaos (mostly due to Lace) we can't say it didn't work

[winged trench]

The only evidence for hornet being void involves something thats probably noncanon anyway

[lusty forum]

Yeah it would have. Lace just had to be the problem child... again

[umbral moth]

plus she was raised by the white lady and vespa too, the pale king wouldn't have allowed that if she was meant to be void

[lusty forum]

Next game is lacewing for sure

[last token]

To be clear I completely believe Hornet is 100% Void-free... in timeframes where she has never entered the Black Egg Temple. After that, who knows?

[tawdry flare]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/450086968756535298/1413134348517113926/Slap.gif

[lusty forum]

We all know. She would definately use literally any kind of void power in SS if she gained any

[nova sluice]

I blame Silk for choosing teenage years as Lace's eternal state. That was a huge mistake that any parent would have avoided

[lusty forum]

Any experienced parent for sure

[elfin niche]

Meanwhile Hornet appears to be stuck in her early 20s forever.

[lusty forum]

I mean... it's really good for pharloom she is

[elfin niche]

Must suck for Hornet being older than her aunt though.

[tawdry flare]

She had an entire species and a silk-spun child before and she still went with making Lace an eternal teenager

[winged trench]

Void is pretty explicitly incompatible with like every living being, i dont see how she could just become part void, and i dont see why it would never be referenced at all

[lusty forum]

Yeah, our protag talks in this game. She would make mention of this SOMEWHERE in the game

[umbral moth]

this is assuming the canon ending is dream no more when the game seems to be very heavily leaning into embrace the void with the references to the everbloom's power to repel the void (godseeker getting consumed by it when void started to leak out of her) and the little ghost's shade flashing as the shade lord for a few frames

[last token]

Is this the case though, or has being under the thumb of her mother for her entire life denied her the ability to experience the world on her own terms and grow as a person?

[nova sluice]

Maybe she tried something more mature with Phantom and it was just boring
"I will be in my room playing Piano and watching black and white movies all day"

[lusty forum]

Plus, if the godhome endings are potentially cannon... then she never sits in the pool of void to begin with

[umbral moth]

exactly right

[lusty forum]

So that pretty concretely ends the debate imo

[tawdry flare]

There should never be a debate of “Is Hornet void?” that’s like asking “Is the Earth flat?” No. It’s shaped like a velociraptor.

[nova sluice]

Both. We see Lace running around in Pharloom quite freely. And GMS was asleep for a very long time too, god knows what Lace did during that time

[elfin niche]

Lace would absolutely hate the Knight.

[nova sluice]

Void? Oh...first time I'm hearing that

[umbral moth]

it's interesting because phantom's stated to have gone gray with age, meaning they grew up and got older. lace potentially was meant to be the same but something changed

[elfin niche]

Hornet has big sister vibes where you can properly just wind her up.

[lusty forum]

Also... do we learn in SS that Ze'mer is a terrible botanist?

[elfin niche]

Lace would try and taunt Knight and Knight just would not understand.

[serene belfry]

hornet is a biological child of pk and herrah no void was used lmao

[gray iris]

hk1 u spawn a void guy when u die hk2 u spawna cocoon and it leak void when u die same thing

[serene belfry]

https://tenor.com/view/mewing-bird-gif-16835999897918525830

[tawdry flare]

Please go back to #sk-discussion-2

[nova sluice]

I don't think I know of any possible angle lore wise for Hornet being Void, maybe I'm missing something

[lusty forum]

Terrible florist*

[gray iris]

no

[elfin niche]

Memes.

Deep meme lore.

[umbral moth]

thanks, i won't be sleeping tonight

[serene belfry]

everyone hornet is void

[gray iris]

i bet void tastes pretty bad like raw snail meat mixed with licorice

[serene belfry]

where tf did my image go

this def isnt a impact frame meant to show how in pain hornet is

[elfin niche]

I am curious as to what the retroactive explanation for Herrah's partner is now.

If he was more noble than a Weaver he must have been hype.

[lusty forum]

Maybe he was the no-show boss in Beasts Den

[umbral moth]

there are black particles falling out of the cocoon when you break it after hornet dies, which has led some people to think hornet could be void despite her clearly stating she's not void in hk1. it's clearly just a gameplay thing, but if we want to take it as something that happens in canon then we can just refer to confessor jiji's quote of bugs leaving behind stains of regret when they die (which in ghost's case it's its shade, meaning said stains of regret can be formed of void regardless of who's dying)

[serene belfry]

also what was "the wish" hornet talks about with the white lady

that she only understands in that moment

[edgy stone]

Chances are he's just of the royal blood of deepnest specifically

[serene belfry]

is she referring to the desire to save/protect something/a kingdom?

[gray iris]

why why dont non void bugs leave behind ghosts then

[edgy stone]

The weavers didnt seem like they would forcefully take the throne away from a people

[elfin niche]

They do.

[tawdry flare]

Deepnest guy she probably couldn’t have kids with because Weavers suck at reproducing

[gray iris]

no

[lusty forum]

This was my interpretation of it yes

[nova sluice]

Knight is too chill to be taunted, this would drive Lace insane

[gray iris]

what bug that is not void put a ghost wjen u kill it

[lusty forum]

both playable characters are decendents of a wyrm, which biases the data we have a lot

[umbral moth]

i think they were just talking about her protecting the kingdom and its inhabitants after the pale king retreated to the dream version of the white palace, the white lady was rendered immobile in her garden and the hollow knight was sealed in the black egg temple

[elfin niche]

Markoth

[gray iris]

yeah but it aint black

[elfin niche]

No Eyes

[lusty forum]

Markoth is MORE empty than the void... there's no way there's a soul in there

[gray iris]

and it dont do the same thing as ur ghost

[lusty forum]

Otherwise he'd have the decency to leave the floor there in P5

[empty sierra]

markoth is a ghost tho

hes alr dead

[gray iris]

it aint completely black

[edgy stone]

I think this is hornets pale blood speaking

[empty sierra]

ya thats not void

[edgy stone]

This might genuinely just be pale kings thinking

[elfin niche]

This is just racist.

[gray iris]

your souls when u die in hk1 are

[serene belfry]

also this line interests me greatly

[gray iris]

idk ill be racist against markoth all i want

[lusty forum]

I think you just need special equipment to see other bug's "stains" on the world when they die

Like the dream nail or the needle song thing

[edgy stone]

Hornet says something along the lines that she biologically feels an urge to control pharloom and take the throne

[serene belfry]

i feel like it gives credence to the idea that higher beings wrestled the world from the void

[lusty forum]

That is such a specific biological urge too lol

[edgy stone]

The pale blood in her gives her the innate desire to rule

[empty sierra]

yeaa that was really interesting

[edgy stone]

It is but hee father is a wyrm

A species that lives just for that

Their one desire

[lusty forum]

I know. I just have no idea what that would feel like in practice lol. Just like... a desire to enslave everyone you meet in the kingdom?

[tawdry flare]

No I think this just means that the White Lady and Pale King’s actions has tied them to the Void

[umbral moth]

oh you're referring to this
i think this is her talking about her instincts as a weaver, she mentions something about that when talking to the snail shaman shrine caretaker. instincts not of her own but ones she has developed as a result of being a weaver

[edgy stone]

I dont think its that as much as it is a desire to be worshipped almost

[gray iris]

i am fairly certain the respawn mechanics animation between hk1 and hk2 indicate that hornet have void but less than ghost

[edgy stone]

Whatever the pale king wanted seemed to be passed off to hornet even if its repressed inside her

[lusty forum]

Honestly... I'd vote for her /j

[umbral moth]

which you know
it tracks considering she becomes the weaver queen of pharloom after binding grandma

[nova sluice]

I can imagine something cool like...if you leave behind regret in physical form after you die maybe the Void is the collection of regret and anger given form after thousands of years of billions of bugs dying with regret. Each one being a drop but ultimately forming an ocean

[gray iris]

cuz if she had more void then she would out down a whole ass black hornet

[serene belfry]

true im just interested in why she calls it the "FIRST" light, it doesnt seem to be connected to the radiance but the radiance also calls the void an ancient enemy

[edgy stone]

Is it the instinct to rule? That line

[umbral moth]

that is exactly my headcanon as to how the abyss came to be

[edgy stone]

I saw that more so her pale blood speaking than her weaver side honestly

[umbral moth]

yeah

[serene belfry]

doesnt the instinct to rule come with higher being/possibly wyrm genes too

[tawdry flare]

Uhh… maybe the Everbloom and the Void are opposing primordial forces? I dunno

[lusty forum]

She does mention to someone that she thinks she would feel drawn to ruling the kingdom if she fought silk

[edgy stone]

Yeah thats my thoughts about it

[lusty forum]

Doesn't the white lady mention that she doesn't want to mess with the flower in the first game?

[edgy stone]

The weavers did groom hornet into ruling pharloom though we do know about thay

[serene belfry]

how?

[lusty forum]

It must have other properties if higher beings are warry around the everbloom as well

[edgy stone]

Red dream they talk about how they trained hornet and aided in her birth soley for it

[umbral moth]

weird cuz i swore she mentioned something about it being because of her being half weaver
plus herra mentioned to not heed the other weavers of deepnest about ruling over them and whatnot

[serene belfry]

Ah, what precious gift it offers, though alas I shan't accept.

Not of me that flower, nor of this kingdom. Far it travelled to reach this place, brought by one beloved, fair knight of lands serene.
There is rare power hidden in those frail petals.
To hold it so close, one must surely be unaware of its nature..."

[craggy smelt]

she mentions she won't take it from TK, and that it isn't her creation or from the kingdom
and that TK must not know what it does if their holding it

[serene belfry]

oh yea herrah discusses it

[edgy stone]

Id like to see the line again to make sure, I feel like the urge to rule qould surely come from the pale king though

[umbral moth]

i really need to see that line again now too iajsjdka

[lusty forum]

Ah, well I guess if it's specifically anti-void that makes sense

[umbral moth]

i'm just going off memory rn

[serene belfry]

she was probably thinking why we were holding our very own anti-life lmao

[edgy stone]

A lot of hollow knight is about higher beings vs bugs of base instinct

[tawdry flare]

The existence of anti-void implies the existence of anti-soul

[edgy stone]

But the pale king is a being of base instinct

[left dust]

Hey I have a question

[lusty forum]

It also might make sense as to why the flower freaking breaks if you get hit with it in the first game, but hornet is fine with it

[edgy stone]

The wyrm has no desire and will other than to rule

[empty sierra]

i dont know if she or caretaker specified what side that urge comes from, it was vague like "your kind"

[umbral moth]

to be fair, hornet is just built different

[lusty forum]

True!

[left dust]

Question: does losing against the First Sinner cause your file to be deleted when you’re playing Steel Soul mode?

[tawdry flare]

What’s your question Sven

[umbral moth]

you're in steel soul, you can't die once aishdksjd

[edgy stone]

I know teemo had a lot of lines of dialouge already

[tawdry flare]

She doesn’t kill you though

[lusty forum]

I mean... in HK you could die in the dream bosses

[left dust]

As you don’t create a cocoon

[edgy stone]

The line mightve already been written somewhere

[serene belfry]

i doubt most people know about her wyrm lineage

[nova sluice]

It's actually kinda nice to see people starting to dive into headcanon and "maybe" territory, this means that we are already covering a big % of the actual lore and can give solid answers to most things

[umbral moth]

wait, wha

[empty sierra]

caretaker should know about it

[umbral moth]

i beat her first try so i had no clue about that

[tawdry flare]

Oh are we diving into headcanon? Hornet X Shakra

[empty sierra]

thats who talks to her about that desire

[lusty forum]

I missed out on this part of HK lore discussions, people had a general idea of things by the time I showed up there. I am ready to speculate this time around lol

[left dust]

I know but if you loose in her fight. You know what I mean.

[serene belfry]

actually one of the most solid reasons for the durability difference

[tawdry flare]

You don’t create a cocoon and your tools don’t repair so I’m assuming it doesn’t count as a death

[green yoke]

You can lose dream fights in steel soul

[serene belfry]

kinda forgot the dialogue the annoying thing abt discussing lore so quick is you cant find all the dialogue you want to find

[umbral moth]

i actually don't, i beat her first try. had no idea no cocoon formed nor that your tools didn't repair

[nova sluice]

If only Steel mode listened to you

[edgy stone]

So this is from the caretaker "...Remarkable idea you're speakin' there, bellringer, a world cut free. Not a wish I've had much cause to hope one, serious like... but I ain't so surprised to hear you speak it. For all your helpin', I been seeing' it clearer. You've still got the monarch in your, alright, and the glare of a Weaver, but the ambition... that's wild different from both."

[umbral moth]

so it's like losing to shakra

[empty sierra]

iirc its when you talk right before he gives you the act 3 quest

[tawdry flare]

Does she actually kill you in Steel Soul?

[left dust]

I didn’t know it was a dream fight. How do we know it’s a dream fight?

[lusty forum]

Actually for all the answers we got in SS, I am a little surprised they did not touch on dream essence in any significant way in it. Like I get it was kind of a radiance thing apparently, but still

[serene belfry]

oh he mentions both then

[nova sluice]

Yup

[umbral moth]

oh huh! interesting

[left dust]

Yeah that’s my question,

[tawdry flare]

Does dying to Shakra kill you????

[green yoke]

It acts like one in that it respawns you outside of the room, not at a bench, and doesn't take your rosaries

[lusty forum]

Maybe the only reason Grim interacted with essence in HK was because he was eating the radiance's power?

[serene belfry]

so hornet fr got both sides of her blood making her lust for power and wanting to rule but she resists

[edgy stone]

Thats just the excerpt from the caretaker though, hornets dialouge with him is not kt listed

[nova sluice]

But thn again, I wouldn't take into consideration Steel mode mechanics into lore at all

[edgy stone]

Itd be more clear with her dialouge

[serene belfry]

yea that was one of the most interesting things abt the first game personally sitll dont really full get how it worked

[teal finch]

i think the new stuff related to memories is super interesting at least. like what do you mean you can extract an actual physical object from someones memories

[nova sluice]

Aside dialogues and the new npcs, bosses and quests

[elfin niche]

Isn't this Soul?

[umbral moth]

snail shamans be wacky

[empty sierra]

anti-void???

[elfin niche]

I mean, Soul is anti-Void and Void is anti-Soul.

[umbral moth]

no cuz anti-void is whatever the everbloom is made out of

[elfin niche]

They're antithetical.

[empty sierra]

where did you guys hear that

[tawdry flare]

The Everbloom is anti-void, void just consumes soul

[serene belfry]

the flower exists

[left dust]

Yeah but my question remains if you lose in the fight does it count as your file being deleted in Steel Soul mode?

[elfin niche]

I always understood it as just having insanely powerful Soul.

[green yoke]

To paraphrase the Great Groal

Their shells are mine, their souls are mine, their crest is mine, my hate is forever

[empty sierra]

oh i guess yea the flower

[serene belfry]

soul is basically life void consumes life and pretty much everything everbloom is anti void whatever its made of

[umbral moth]

ya

[elfin niche]

I think Void and Soul cancel each other out.

[edgy stone]

Okay so monarch is used to talk about the pale king and silk

[elfin niche]

Like they react and together stop existing.

[umbral moth]

i guess that'd explain why it breaks after being inside void for too long

[edgy stone]

Which makes sense but makes some lines harder to decipher

[elfin niche]

I don't think Void "wins".

[left dust]

What do you mean?

[nova sluice]

Hmm I haven't reached the duel yet but black screen = deleted save file so if Shakira stops before you actually die thn it's fine

[edgy stone]

Monarch in this can refer to both silk and pk

[serene belfry]

void attacks taking your soul and draining all the enemies of soul:

[empty sierra]

flower is white void is black so flower wins

[serene belfry]

how for silk

[tawdry flare]

Nope, Void leeches off soul (silk) in Act 3 to invade the bodies of the haunted ones

[left dust]

I haven’t fought her yet.

[tawdry flare]

The Everbloom literally blows up Godseeker in ETV so I think it’s safe to say it’s anti-void

[edgy stone]

Hornet in dialouge with the caretaker refers to silk as monarch

[serene belfry]

i actually dont understand most of the weaver GMS and silk lore sorry lmao if anyone is down to explain it that'd be peak

[nova sluice]

Getting killed inside a dream or to FS still kills you on Steel mode

[neat sandal]

herrah's partner is pale king

[elfin niche]

No, she had a partner before that.

[tawdry flare]

inside a dream
Memory bosses kill you?!?

[lusty forum]

not in HK. White palace would but not the dream boss refights

[edgy stone]

So like I dont know if that dialouge means the weavers and pks blood or that the caretaker still sees silks involvement with hornet

[lusty forum]

Radiance would also kill you though

[nova sluice]

Ye, sorry, Memory

[tawdry flare]

WHY?!?

[left dust]

Do we know this definitively?

[edgy stone]

Fuck I need a dialouge document

[neat sandal]

you mean this
dead sire mean dead father

[teal finch]

tammo posted one two days ago or so

its just not organized at all since its effectively just a dump of the text from the code

[serene belfry]

REAL and tablet

[elfin niche]

Yes.

[serene belfry]

also why is beast behavior always mentioned in line with spiders/herrah

[left dust]

It dosen’t make sense steal soul would break if you lose to the first sinner.

[tawdry flare]

I’m asking the Professionals but I’m also going to sleep so Goodbye

[elfin niche]

The Pale King wasn't the dad of all the Deepling things.

So Herrah had a partner before the Pale King.

Who was more noble than she was, despite being a first generation Weaver.

[serene belfry]

do we know that herrah was the one who birthed them all?

[neat sandal]

pale king is dead.
pale king is father
pale king is high caste

what else you need

[nova sluice]

I do...unfortunately
Unless something changed and I'm not aware. One was on Khan for example

[left dust]

Appreciate it. I think it’s something lore wise we should know

[serene belfry]

kinda dont think so i believe pk would be mentioned with more reverence

[elfin niche]

"This border bounds the twisting scratching things
Their dead sire..."

[tawdry flare]

How did you die to Khann…

[serene belfry]

like "honoured" doesn't cut it makes it seems more like it was someone who was just high ranking

[lusty forum]

Steel soul in this game is going to be SO much harder ugh

[elfin niche]

Their is plural. Hurrah and the Pale King did not have multiple kids.

[tawdry flare]

Okay good night chat

[empty sierra]

why is it called steel soul in silksong shouldnt it be steel silk?

[elfin niche]

Seems pretty obvious there was a spider daddy before PK.

[nova sluice]

I'm duplicating files to test stuff and someone asked some time ago if you could die there

[naive crag]

hey homos

[teal finch]

also deepnest generally did not like pk so they wouldnt even want to refer to him as herrahs partner methinks

[serene belfry]

yea cause if there wasn't all the spider enemies would be giga powerful and basicall hornets

[elfin niche]

Exactly.

[naive crag]

i just found the lace needolin dialogue and im confused because i used to think gms wanted weavers back to sustain her

but lace acts jealous

''why her, mother''
''see me, your knight''
''a child, too broken''

[empty sierra]

maybe she doesnt know why she needed them

and was jealous thinking she wanted to replace her with other children

[edgy stone]

I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome...
Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up
top.[Hornet]:And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with
more...[Hornet]:That part wishes not to claim a monarch's mantle, rather it would see my
freedom regained, and this kingdom's bugs unshackled from their pale
chains

I fucking got it

[serene belfry]

again idk GMS or weaver lore at all but from what i understand GMS wants a child, creates ones artifically like phantom and lace as surrogates, needs weaver silk to sustain them? idfk

[edgy stone]

Also monarch in the line I sent earlier specifically means silk

[left dust]

I haven’t gotten to Kahn, or anything like that. But I think the first sinner has to be different.

[elfin niche]

I think originally, Herrah's partner was the Weaver, not Herrah. He was of the noble cast, and she was just a local spider to Deepnest. When he did, she was no longer capable of having intelligent children, hence why she sought the Pale King so there could be a successor to her. That's why she's called Herrah the Beast - precisely because she wasn't a Weaver but merely a brute spider lifted by her partner.

[edgy stone]

Before you fight silk she is always refered to as monarch by hornet and others

[empty sierra]

still ambiguous if its the PK or weaver side

[fair zealot]

gms loves lace but lace hates gms (and doesn't believe that gms loves her)

[elfin niche]

But Silksong clearly retcons this.

[serene belfry]

goat

[serene belfry]

my dumbass has been interpreting this as you calling silk the actual substance as a monarch and was so confused LMAO

[elfin niche]

I think TC changed how they thought about Herrah between HK and SS.

[naive crag]

why does she wanna be seen by her then

[edgy stone]

Yeah but I do think the fact silk also has the urge means its probably hornets pale blood

It seems an urge higher beings cannot refuse

[empty sierra]

why not, hornet is refusing it

[edgy stone]

Hornet is only halfblood though and when she fully consumes a god she falls to it too

[elfin niche]

LoS is also refusing it given he could crush Pharloom in an instant.

[serene belfry]

we kinda knew this since og hk yea

[serene belfry]

LoS?

[edgy stone]

Los is an entity more than anything else

[elfin niche]

Lord of Shades.

[edgy stone]

Los is always the outlier of any discussion

[serene belfry]

oh lmao

[serene belfry]

also isnt a higher being

[edgy stone]

Hes like the weird distant cousin your not supposed to bring up at christmas time

[serene belfry]

completely different force

[elfin niche]

He is definitely the higher being for Void.

[umbral moth]

shade lord is referred to as a god by godseeker and the snail shamans soooo

[nova sluice]

I can for sure try again just to make sure, I can make a new save and rush there tonight.
I might test on Karmelia as well since it could be a weird Khan thing instead of a general rule
If you have any other ideas to test stuff on Steel just let me know

[edgy stone]

Hes the representation of that but he himself is not really

The void is so eldritch in nature it does not have a higher being like others

[spare pendant]

Weavers have a more varied history of ruling than the Pale King

[teal finch]

before we go towards this discussion i think the term "pale" in reference to powerful beings/bugs should be analyzed further because this game refers to several things as pale

[serene belfry]

yes but higher beings have specific characteristics like the innate desire to rule, alot of the time having somewhat light oriented abilities etc

[empty sierra]

is pale oil a higher being??

[teal finch]

palestag, hornet refers to lace as a "pale child," shamans refer to gms as a pale monarch

[spare pendant]

GMS was a monarch, Herrah was a monarch, and I think I heard someone say here that the weavers ruled when they put GMS to sleep

[spare pendant]

Palestag is explicitly not a pale being though

Only paletouched

[umbral moth]

hm, fair

[serene belfry]

"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."

[edgy stone]

The weavers ruled and helped create the citadel before the citadel caste eventually overthrew them as well

The weavers also have to have their ambitions considered

[nova sluice]

iirc about PaleStag there is a citation of it being a memory, not reality, like "I can only imagine if the real thing was like this"

[edgy stone]

The weavers were very much chasing divinity

[serene belfry]

chat can someone explain the weaver lore to me

[edgy stone]

There is a lot of stuff pointing out their lack of divinity was massive issue for them

[serene belfry]

Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?

[nova sluice]

The Abyss weaver base is really impressive

[edgy stone]

Its assumingly why silk and them grew apart

And the weavers also tried to make a god itself with the jar lady

[spare pendant]

Pale King and GMS are the only actual examples we have of higher beings seeking to rule. Radiance was chill until she almost died, Unn was a creator but not a ruler, etc

[edgy stone]

Cant remember her name, eve???

[spare pendant]

Eva

[edgy stone]

Radiance it's actually so much in her nature she needs it to live

[teal finch]

what i mean is that things with the pale- prefix share Some quality or attribute with eachother, and that it isnt completely defined yet

[spare pendant]

No, Radiance only needs to be remembered

Worship is a means to that end

[teal finch]

aside from them just generally being powerful

[nova sluice]

"Myths made real in memory"

[elfin niche]

Seems to me there's Soul, which is the unified animating force behind life, Essence, which gives higher thought and sentience, and Void, which is an anti-Soul and a disunifier. It's not clear to me Void is anti-Essence per se.

[nova sluice]

I love this quote

[teal finch]

its so good

[edgy stone]

And they were obsessed with hornets divinity and the possibility of her overtaking silk

[lusty imp]

does ss happen before hollow knight?

[edgy stone]

The first sinner specifically calls out the fact they werent gods even with silk claiming they were

[spare pendant]

The only evidence we have of void consuming essence is the radiance fight (which is pretty huge tbf)

[elfin niche]

Radiance also has Soul though - you get Soul from attacking her.

So I think it's more that you need some level of Soul to be able to have Essence.

[serene belfry]

also note what we get from binding eva Sylphsong which is apparently the weaver's attempt at a divinity and the Pale Oil first line: Bile gland of a rare sylphean slug.

[nova sluice]

It's after
at first the evidence is scarce but it becomes very clear around the end

[elfin niche]

Can't be sentient if you aren't even alive.

[spare pendant]

True!

[spare pendant]

Lost Kin?

[elfin niche]

Most of the Higher Beings are associated with Essence - higher thought.

[teal finch]

oh shit i completelyyy forgot about this

[elfin niche]

GMS for example turns ordinary spiders to Weavers.

[teal finch]

good catch

[nova sluice]

Hornet + Eva with infinite silk could make their own army of Laces

[elfin niche]

Has Soul, same as HK.

[serene belfry]

no essence is just a tangible substance that dreams are made of

[spare pendant]

I thought vessels lacked their own Soul

[serene belfry]

which isnt that important in ss ngl but important for radiance shit

[edgy stone]

We have enough of silks story to kinda piece together everything but like not her true intent or actions

[lofty otter]

Why is the void so aggressive in silksong and seemingly dormant until provoked in HK

[serene belfry]

Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still." "Essence... the precious fragments of light that dreams are made of."

[spare pendant]

It was provoked in silksong

[nova sluice]

To be fair it was pretty chill until the Snails messed with it

[edgy stone]

We have her desire to have daughters but we dont get what happened between her and the weavers

[lofty otter]

So it’s just auto immune towards GMS being whacked down there

[serene belfry]

it more feels like the snails just gave it a highway to affect all of pharloom which it can't do by itself

[lofty otter]

Tru

[elfin niche]

I think it is both.

[edgy stone]

The void does seem to naturally want to eat soul if it can

[spare pendant]

yeah

[edgy stone]

And it got access to a kingdoms worth of soul infused silk

[teal finch]

general big picture, i think eventually (esp after the first sinner) the weavers realized they were bound to a life of servitude under her and didnt want that anymore

[elfin niche]

Dumb creatures in HK only drop tiny amounts of Essence if any at all.

Because they were once intelligent but have no real vestiges left.

Meanwhile intelligent creatures or their ghosts contain huge amounts of Essence.

[edgy stone]

Yeah thats definitely part of it but I also think that silk started to dislike the weavers as well

[elfin niche]

The Radiance's infection renders bugs dumb. It subdues their Essence.

[serene belfry]

interesting white palace tablet id like to throw here

[edgy stone]

Yeah, you get Silk's thoughts after the second Lace fight

...Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking...
...From our Silk... A child born loyal...

[serene belfry]

"VOID, yours is the power opposed.
But yours is potential, eternity potential, force that could deny Time.
VOID, harness shall be placed upon you."

[edgy stone]

Silk doesn't seem to consider the weavers pure anymore

[teal finch]

right yeah, maybe its that she felt like with them rebelling against her she didnt want to bother with them anymore

[lofty otter]

What where the weavers even doing in the void

[craggy smelt]

first game lore, blaargh!

[nova sluice]

Ok, I'm gonna make a new Steel file to test stuff, any other ideas just let me know. So far:

• Does FS death counts?
• Can we die inside memories?
• Losing to Shakira counts as death?

[serene belfry]

again idk the weaver or gms lore

but to me it feels like GMS wants a real child and made lace and phantom artificially as surrogtes and only saves lace at the end because even though she's artificial, shes her last hope

[edgy stone]

It does seem like she wanted a child thats a higher being like her

[elfin niche]

Ironically she has a grandchild that arguably is.

[edgy stone]

which is actually directed stated in the game

Lace says after you beat her in the 2nd fight that what silk wants is hornet and not lace

And I think thats due to hornet being of pale blood

[keen compass]

Lace does get proven wrong tho. GMS turns out most likely wants Hornet to save Lace

[serene belfry]

i think its only bc of this tho ^

[keen compass]

Lace seems to be the one that GMS cares the absolute most for even if she is far from a perfect mom

[edgy stone]

I really wish phantom was more involved

[serene belfry]

like she has no hope of winning against the void so the only thing to sustain her lineage by that point was lace

[edgy stone]

Its so weird phantom is completely absent from the story

[serene belfry]

real

[keen compass]

It def wasn't for that reason

The clear core reason she saved Lace was because of care given how much she gives just FOR Lace

GMS was willing to give up her very being for Lace to survive

Her kingdom, her subjects, her everything for Lace

[edgy stone]

Lace is the closest thing she ever did get to her goal

Outside of phantom which idk why she hated that bitch

[keen compass]

It does raise a question tho

[lofty otter]

Wasn’t phantom decaying rapidly

[keen compass]

Is GMS ,despite being pale being, incapable of producing child?

[neat sandal]

why GMS use our
is she stupid
now I think.
It may not from GMS
but from the weavers

[edgy stone]

Weve only see 2 pale beings naturally reproduce and theyre the only 2 that cannot create life out of nothing either

[keen compass]

We kno the pale king shit out kids like no tomorrow given he dumped enuff bodies to make a land of them

He did so too with a normal bug and a pale being

[edgy stone]

Pale king and white lady are able to bear children but unlike radiance or unn they cant create life

[lofty otter]

Aren’t they just formed void with a mask slapped on them

[keen compass]

Was GMS incapable completely of bearing child?

[keen compass]

No, they died in infancy and were reborn as void thingies

[serene belfry]

originally i had the idea that the higher evolutionarily a organism becomes the necessity for reproduction decreases until some of them just don't which is why they desire to rule and to have subjects and in some cases its a method for survival

[nova sluice]

Only now I'm reading about Seth's lore!
This is so nice and wholesome ❤️

[serene belfry]

but on the other hand pale king and white lady had a bunch of kids

[lofty otter]

Aha

[edgy stone]

The pale king is also special as he is the only bug out of the higher beings

[serene belfry]

so idk

[edgy stone]

Every other higher being is too biologically different from normal bugs

The pale king took the form of one and presumably the functions as well

[lofty otter]

You could argue Radiance is a bug

[keen compass]

Radiance is a moth queen

[serene belfry]

that could be the explanation yeah

[edgy stone]

Radiance is a bug yeah but her nature is inherently different from them

[serene belfry]

also she is like barely tangible since she exists via dreams (probably why the godseeker considers her to be a true divinity too)

[edgy stone]

Her biology does not adhere to any other bug as she does not possess a material form

Silk biologically is also vastly different from every other bug

[nova sluice]

On my 100% Steel run I'm not gonna beat Seth on Fleatopia, he will forever be the number one there

[keen compass]

So like- Lace and Hornet are def becoming partners forever now right? lol

[serene belfry]

this could be the main reason for why they all desire to rule otherwise i cant think of any explanation with the pale king being an exception cause he turned into a normal bug form basically

[lofty otter]

I feel like silk holds significantly less power than radiance

[keen compass]

Def not

Silk is more powerful than radiance by a tiny bit

[nova sluice]

More like sisters

[keen compass]

All higher beings are equal in power except for the Void

[elfin niche]

???

[keen compass]

The Void is above all

[elfin niche]

Moths are literally bugs.

So are spiders.

[lofty otter]

How though

[edgy stone]

Yeah but the radiance is bug in only shape

[serene belfry]

imo yeah you can also like tell based on their fight how much more desperate and kinda animalistic silk is compared to the radiance

[lofty otter]

Does GMS look like a spider to you

[edgy stone]

Biologically she is vastly different as she posses no form

[nova sluice]

We don't really have a way to measure that and "power" in this universe is a weird concept since we have dreams, memories, genetics, mind, etc etc

[serene belfry]

like she only uses physical attacks whereas the radiance be using pure light and shit

[elfin niche]

I don't think we have any real basis for that.

[serene belfry]

very true

[elfin niche]

At least, she might be bug only in shape now because she only exists in dreams.

[keen compass]

Radiance got eviscerated by the void in a moment. GMS managed to straight up sustained herself against the full weight of the void bearing down all around her to protect Lace

[elfin niche]

But presumably she had a physical form in life.

[lofty otter]

And her influence seems less significant

[keen compass]

This wasn't even full power GMS

[fair zealot]

tbh gms bootlegs a lot of radiance's attacks lol

[elfin niche]

The Pale King's form in dreams is the same as his form was in life, I assume the same is true of the Radiance.

[keen compass]

GMS is vastly weakened due to imprisonment

[elfin niche]

Particularly given the statues of her from before the Infection.

[lofty otter]

Wasn’t radiance weakened too

[serene belfry]

she teleported out once and also during radiance fight the whole void was united in the knight's will just to kill her

[keen compass]

So this was a weakened GMS holding back the void's power to protect Lace

[fair zealot]

i don't think radiance had a form outside of dreams

[serene belfry]

also hollow knight and the lord of shades themselves were there to crack her open \

[lofty otter]

Radiance wasn’t ever tangible

[elfin niche]

Radiance is massively weakened by no believers and only clinging on in the edges of dreams.

[keen compass]

Weakened? She wasn't really weakened

She def was fine, its why the infection was so oppressive

[fair zealot]

radiance was obviously weakened because we can fight absolute radiance which is her at full power

[nova sluice]

A little bit of Radiance propaganda would have saved Hallownest

[elfin niche]

The Moths were created by her.

[serene belfry]

she was probably incredibly weakened before spreading the infection as a last ditch effort

[keen compass]

How so

[supple igloo]

Why is it Grand Mother Silk and not Grandmother Silk

[elfin niche]

She must have existed outside dreams in order to create the Moths.

[serene belfry]

actually thats what happened

[keen compass]

Because she isn't a grandmother

[elfin niche]

As there would have been nobody there to dream her.

[edgy stone]

Well she sorta is

[serene belfry]

a few whispers and believers in the shadows remained allowing the radiance to return and then she spread the infection o everybody

[supple igloo]

Fair lol, they could have named her Great Mother Silk though

[keen compass]

We don't know for sure. We do know tho that she def wasn't weakened

[edgy stone]

The weavers had children and theyre like kinda her children even though they refute the name

[serene belfry]

we don't really know the details

[lofty otter]

I feel like comparing Gms’ situation with the void to the radiance is kinda impossible because against the radiance the whole void was united and gms just kinda fell in

[keen compass]

She just was in the dream realm with no way to interact with reality

[serene belfry]

how do we know this whats the rleaiton with weavers to gms

[nova sluice]

Ye but if more people remembered her before that, she would still be chill about it

[keen compass]

Then for who knows how long held off the void from obliterating her child and herself

[nova sluice]

Rad, iirc, predates PK

[serene belfry]

i dont think so cause the pale king is a direct competitor

neither would be chill with each other

[keen compass]

She does

[serene belfry]

they want to rule in full nothing less

[lofty otter]

I think if you just dip the radiance in the void like that she’d be fine too

[elfin niche]

I don't know if PK is literally older than Rad but she predates his presence in Hallownest by a long way.

[fair zealot]

the radiance we fight in the dream no more ending is explicitly a weakened version of her. absolute radiance is her at full power

[edgy stone]

Last sinner says that silk called them her children

[nova sluice]

Ye ye, in Hallownest, that's what I meant

[keen compass]

Weakened or aged, because she either way wasn't near the massively weakened state GMS was in

[serene belfry]

ooh how do we know this is it just implied?

[elfin niche]

Anyway different subject: did Silksong drop any hot new lifeblood lore aside from calling it Plasmium?

[keen compass]

Not to mention, does it state its explicitly weakened?

[nova sluice]

Ye...there is also that...
Those Higher Beings should learn to chill like Unn

[fair zealot]

well yeah probably less weakened than gms but weakened nonetheless

[serene belfry]

fr unn was chilling bro just made shit green and went to sleep

[keen compass]

Absolute Radiance and Reg. Radiance could be argued as just gameplay different characters

In terms of difficulty

[fair zealot]

I'm not well versed in godseeker lore tbh but it's like radiance is the weakened version of absolute radiance in the same way the hollow knight is the weakened version of pure vessel

[lofty otter]

Btw is the grey root a higher being too?

[calm chasm]

didnt it say that absrad was radiance at its peak
which implies that the TE radiance wasnt at full power

[elfin niche]

No

Godseeker says at some point that AbsRad is Rad at peak

[serene belfry]

right i see

same for oro mato sheo sly id guess

[elfin niche]

Wiki has ": "But couldst thou ever hope to overcome that mighty God tuned at the core of dream and mind, when met in perfect state, at peak of all others?"

[carmine geyser]

is there any actual explanation how we saved lost lace from the void? we just defeated her "lost" version, the knight helped us escape the abyss and were fine

[keen compass]

All im sayin is GMS def far far more weakened than Rad. Which makes her feat of holding off the void far more notable

[elfin niche]

I don't know GMS is more weakened.

[neat sandal]

no.
GMS only fine cause she can create a cocoon, physically
"She will have retreated within her protective form, that cocoon of thread. Even as the dark eats its outer, she will spin its Silk anew.[Hornet]:The effort would be immense and it will strain her soul thin, but what other choice remains?[Hornet]:This is the desperate act of a dying god. A defiance that, left unchallenged, will bring your kingdom's ruin."

[fair zealot]

her "lost" version was still physically her, just soaked in void, by my understanding

[serene belfry]

the argument tho is that the radiance had to deal with the entire void being united in a single directive to kill her

[neat sandal]

what radiance can do.
become a sun?

[keen compass]

GMS was keeping the void from taking her completely and killing her to turn her into a void thingy. The void's influence was still prevalent and slowly taking over Lace, and covered her in its goop. We beat the void off her body.

[serene belfry]

like the difference between surviving the middle of ta dangerous part of the ocean vs trying to survive when every single fish in it is trying to take you out

[carmine geyser]

that kind of explains it tbh, but it feels much more different than the act 3 normal void enemies

[keen compass]

There is no difference given once submerged the void was trying to merc GMS

[lofty otter]

So GMS just had a better skill set to take on going for a swim in the void

[keen compass]

That's cuz they're completely void consumed and now dead

[carmine geyser]

ah

ty🙏

[drowsy jay]

are snail shamans void creatures or why is their species as a whole so drawn to void? both in hallownest & pharloom

[keen compass]

They piggy backed off the haunting to fuckle with peeps

[keen compass]

Good question. Its not explained.

[carmine geyser]

i think they just are void fanatics?

[serene belfry]

a differnece is also that the radiance was directly attacked by sealed vessel and lord of shades in reg ending tbf

anyway powerscaling go crazy

[keen compass]

We do know they are def from the ancient void civilization present in HK and Silksong tho

[carmine geyser]

the past shamans did mess with the void, going off the ruined chapel dialouges where they said they havent been there in a very long time

[fair zealot]

the living snail shaman in hollow knight denies any involvement of his kind with the void

[keen compass]

The ancient void civilization has just raised more questions thanks to SS

[carmine geyser]

might be just lying tbh, wont be the first time the knight has been lied to iirc

[edgy stone]

Snail shamans certainly know more about the void than any otber group as well with their ability to harnest soul

[serene belfry]

i think the game makes it clear everyone and everything from the void civilization is dead or indecipherable

[keen compass]

Yes but the ones in SS clearly don't . So most likely a 'not all snails fucked with the void' thing

[serene belfry]

original hk did this too

[nova sluice]

From the little we know they are not void creatures. And maybe they want to fiddle with the Void after seeing how especial, unique and powerful it can be during HK
It's not uncommon to see tribes being more academic and wanting to study it like the Weaver base on the Abyss

[keen compass]

Snail Shamans in SS

[edgy stone]

Harvesting soul seems to be a skill any bug can learn but as seen in soul sanctuary leads to weird fucked up shit happening to the people who do

[carmine geyser]

did snail shamans always look like they did in SS? like i dont really remember the shamans from hollow knight looking all void like

[serene belfry]

i think its very unlikely they come from the void civilisation perhaps distant distant distant descendants mayhaps

[river coyote]

I’m still in act 1, do Hornet and Lace become enemies to lovers or did team cherry fuck it up

[edgy stone]

But shamans can do it naturally and not become weird fucked up monstrosities just like the knight can

[lofty otter]

They where less goopy

[keen compass]

Enemies to Sisters forever

[edgy stone]

And the knight can only use soul like that because he takes it in due to the void inside

[carmine geyser]

dont get spoiled by it but if u want to know the answer: ||theyre friends by the end||

[serene belfry]

we saw in hk they just liked experimenting with soul and later void to enhance their spells the knowledge likely spread until most of them were utilising void in some way

[nova sluice]

Erm...I would advise to avoid this channel if you are this early into the game

[river coyote]

0/10 they fucked up

[nova sluice]

We are very trigger happy about heavy spoilers here

[keen compass]

????

[carmine geyser]

honestly i wish lace got more refights, shes definitely the best boss in all of the hk series

[edgy stone]

Lace is significantly younger than hornet

[elfin niche]

AbsRad took the whole Void being unified to take her out. GMS was being dissolved (or slowly resisting being dissolved) by just plain Void without purpose.

[river coyote]

I was rooting for enemies to lovers, team cherry shattered my dreams

[edgy stone]

And also cursed in a way where I dont think lace can grow

[serene belfry]

hard disagree

[carmine geyser]

why so?

[elfin niche]

AbsRad is absolutely scarier than GMS.

[river coyote]

Oh

[keen compass]

Hard disagree

[edgy stone]

Lace isnt just crazy because of what shes experienced she was born that way

[carmine geyser]

lost lace was definitely the hardest boss ever though 😭

[serene belfry]

the whole series is crazy even in silksong i wouldnt call her the best

[keen compass]

Not really

[elfin niche]

Team Cherry, laughing as they design the Silksong boss rush DLC

[nova sluice]

Rad can attack you during your sleep and GMS can control you and the people around you
They are both as scary as it can get

[serene belfry]

pretty good tho well designed hard fight just underwhelming arguably in story narrative impact department

[edgy stone]

Silk calls lace "child weaved mad" and phantom "child weaved frail"

[fair zealot]

bro didn't fight savage beastfly

[whole hawk]

Question about the in eighth/quarter part. Does this mean each generation of new weavers that GMS created were weaker/were more diluted?

[keen compass]

It took me 31 tries because I am not good against a spry bitch that can parry my stks

[serene belfry]

ye this

[carmine geyser]

i like its simplicity as a duel with no shenanigans or anything, no summons and anything

[elfin niche]

Yes.

That seems the pretty clear implication.

[edgy stone]

No they were the direct offspring of the weavers gms did create

[carmine geyser]

yeah, i held off until i got cogflies then they carried me in savage beastfly + refight

[tiny steeple]

Um why?

[serene belfry]

wtf does this whole thing even mean

[whole hawk]

Was there any explanation why that was?

[keen compass]

My fave boss in silksong is still the First Sinner

[lofty otter]

Same

[serene belfry]

beat it first try but def up there reminded me of pure vessel

[whole hawk]

Hunting orders.

[nova sluice]

That would be the main idea, yes

[serene belfry]

my favorite is definitely cogwork dancers

[keen compass]

I beat it 2nd try but it felt like a HK1 boss in all the best ways

[serene belfry]

realllll