sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah infection is crazy but that's because Radiance is the goat and GMS is a loser pretender higher being

[terse warren]

i don't think it fits her character to be disappointed in weavers

[crisp basalt]

Yeah I think it shows when you do the Lifeblood quest in act 3

[terse warren]

Do not ragebait me, wench

[crisp basalt]

Hornet freaks out way more about lifeblood infection than the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

That's not ragebait GMS sucks powerwise

[spark valve]

I read that as wrench

[terse warren]

Starpengu = 🔧

[spark valve]

gonna call twelfth architect that the next time I want to slander them

[terse warren]

ptf

[vague jasper]

GMS is very powerful

[silk dirge]

so the thing i want more clarification on now is what is the purpose of the big weaver structures where you get abilities and how are those connected to the weavenests

[lean temple]

She survived a while despite being in an ocean of Void that's something

[spark valve]

hornet calls them burial spires

[terse warren]

she has just woken up from a very long nap and is able to control basically the whole citadel and beyond, she's not that weak

[vague jasper]

They are graves of individual weavers I think

One with each special powet

[terse warren]

imo this also doesn't feel in character but it's not like we know

are we even sure that ALL the weavers felt betrayed?

[spark valve]

I don't know if we need like a specific inciting incident to drive the betrayal when we know they generally didn't care for how much power she had over them

[crisp basalt]

We don't know, but we know enough did for them to be successful

[vague jasper]

Prolly most, others were prolly in other kingdoms

[terse warren]

i thought they imprisoned her because of the "weak foundations" stuff mentioned in Atla, or is that referring to the running away

[crisp basalt]

That's about Eva

[spark valve]

atla is where they designed a snare they used on her

[spark valve]

different text

[silk dirge]

who are the weavers the dens are named after

are they like the original important weavers

[terse warren]

It more so seems to me like one day they just wanted to take over from her, not like they were getting back at her for some reason

[spark valve]

that seems to be the case

[vague jasper]

Each weaver den has a lore tablet below it

If you needolin

Sorry not the dens

[terse warren]

every pure weaver is first generation most likely

[severe siren]

Favorite weavenest is the far fields one

[silk dirge]

im gonna need my mossbag video to comprehend all of this 😭

this seems so much more complex than hk lore

[spark valve]

that one's cool but atla has eva so sorry

[severe siren]

True eva is kinda goated

[terse warren]

me when i run fast or smt

[vague jasper]

Hollow knight lore was complex too, you just looked it up at the time when it was well collected and organised, silksong is very new right now so people are making sense

[severe siren]

Its not just that its the rune depicting paths away from pharloom, and also the window out into the wastes beyond pharloom

[terse warren]

fair

[crisp basalt]

Also if you read the cages right below GMS fight you can see that weavers migrate to a lot of different places and they were hunted from all across the world

[severe siren]

This is awesome

[ancient dock]

Definitely talking about Ghost/The Knight

[vague jasper]

So they wanted to be free from eternal slavery

Of GMS

[crisp basalt]

Also explains why Deepnest fought back against PK

They wanted their Freedom more than anything else

Until obviously Radiance became problem again

[vague jasper]

Yeah they just wanted to be independent

[sinful nimbus]

Only because void was nerfed

If my goat LOS had been there she'd be dead instantly

[vague jasper]

Widow prolly went insane in her loyalty to GMS

[winter iris]

Remember we are talking about a Higher Being, these entities are almost unkillable.

[vague jasper]

Yet most of them are dead

[ancient scroll]

We know of three

[sinful nimbus]

"Almost unkillable" and she got jumped by 4 random bugs 💔 🥀

[winter iris]

But yeah, everyone was surprised GMS survived the void.

[vague jasper]

I think void was still using her to get to pharloom hence she was alive

[spark valve]

no she was just holding out to protect lace

[severe siren]

Yeah she just wanted lace to be saved

GMS helps Hornet do this

[crisp basalt]

Her Maternal Instinct Gave her a Power Boost

[vague jasper]

Even though lace doesn't like GMS much

[winter iris]

Indeed, they are hard to kill, but sitll can die.

[terse warren]

slandering Goat Mother Silk smh

[sinful nimbus]

Rad was harder to kill 🥱

[lean temple]

So what happens to Silk after GMS is gone. Will it eventually go extinct now that its source is dead?

[sinful nimbus]

PK only died because he killed himself too

[lean temple]

Rad was not a physical higher being

[crisp basalt]

Reason Radiance wasn't killed was cause she lives in Dream Realm

[sinful nimbus]

That's what gives her the edge

[terse warren]

Rad isn't even real

[vague jasper]

It exists through hornet

[winter iris]

Only the Shade Lord could destroy The Radiance completely.

[spark valve]

hornet will still produce it, as will any other part weavers out there who hadn't been captured yet

[lean temple]

You're comparing two fundamentally different beings then. You're comparing apples to oranges

[winter iris]

Pale King killed himself after failing to save Hallownest.

[crisp basalt]

Or Void Killed him

Or both

[winter iris]

Perhaps it was a Void based suicide.

[crisp basalt]

Yep

[lean temple]

Cool idea

[ancient dock]

His body was intact so I’m saying Void

[silk dirge]

has any lore document been made yet so i can try and understand whats been pieced together so far

[lean temple]

Somebody will still disagree no matter what it says

[crisp basalt]

At the end he just gave up and let it take him

[ancient dock]

Although he would have had black voided eyes

[crisp basalt]

Or who knows

[sinful nimbus]

I'm comparing wood to titanium

[crisp basalt]

Maybe he just Metamorphosed again and fucked off somewhere else

[ancient dock]

It possible he simply died of aged

[lean temple]

The Radiance isn't physical, GMS is. They are fundamentally different.

[lean temple]

He is implied to have been inmortal

[sinful nimbus]

They're fundamentally different in a way that makes Radiance more dangerous than GMS

[ancient dock]

I suppose so Hornet is to an extent she has a long life span

[crisp basalt]

Yeah whole reason Radiance was such pain in the ass for Them to deal with was cause her Being a Dream Being means they had no way of actually fighting her directly

[lean temple]

That's true but it doesn't mean GMS sucks because of something that is just her fundamental nature.

[silk dirge]

the most important lore tho is why does hornet have a thing for fluffy creatures

[crisp basalt]

Grandma

She Old

[silk dirge]

hornet when fluffy creature in hunters journal

[ancient dock]

Everyone likes fluffy things

[sinful nimbus]

She fundamentally sucks

[crisp basalt]

Also Hornet when Mechanical Creatures

[sinful nimbus]

Being a dream being also made her infection more prevalent

[silk dirge]

i love the fucking teapot dudes in cogwork core

im not just talking about fleas

she says in the journal entry for the massive mossgrubs you find in the memorium she wishes they bred out the spikes bc otherwise theyre fluffy

[ancient dock]

Haven’t started Act 3 but can someone answer this || Lace and Phantom are probably Silk creations, I guess which were brought to life with Void I’m guessing ||

[sinful nimbus]

No void

[lean temple]

Pure Silk

[ancient dock]

Okay that makes sense

[lean temple]

Wait she does actually say that

Hornet likes floof

[terse warren]

His body was intact so im saying it wasn't void

[blissful harbor]

hornet mentions her love for floof multiple times
it’s also in the big fluffy bell creatures one

[ancient dock]

Thought about it but Void deaths have black eyes

[terse warren]

Man, I can't believe PK was dead all along and the Void had been controlling his corpse

[terse warren]

that is a fountain

[sinful nimbus]

I'm surprised we didn't get an evil version of PK who was corrupted by void

[sinful nimbus]

Would've fit right in with Lost Lace

[ancient dock]

Look at the subjects that died of void

[terse warren]

this is his actual corpse

[terse warren]

PK normally has black eyes

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone has black eyes

[ancient dock]

Yeah but there not leaking

[terse warren]

which means he wasn't killed by the void

[sinful nimbus]

Black streaks are usually tears

EG Traitor's Child

sometimes innards too though EG No Eyes but either way PK doesn't have them

[terse warren]

it's like saying Blue is the color of lifeblood therefore the blue lake is a lifeblood lake

[lean temple]

That goes against everyone saying he was too strong for the Void to touch

[sinful nimbus]

OK but Silksong retconned that with delicate flower being the "only means [the pale family] has to resist the void"

Thanks Team Cherry

Void particles are probably from the dead kingsmoulds in the nextdoor room

[lean temple]

I find this very amusing

[sinful nimbus]

Void tendrils are the Kingsmould breaking down

[lean temple]

I think that means a very strong and longterm solution. GMS was till able to resist for some time. Not like they're completely powerless against the Void, just that the Everbloom is their strongest weapon against it.

[sinful nimbus]

Delicate Flower breaks after like 2 minutes in the void

[edgy barn]

We still have the lighthouse in Hallownest's Abyss

[lean temple]

Two minutes in the Abyss

[sinful nimbus]

PK glows a bright light which should subdue the void indefinitely but TC thought portraying void as an unstoppable uncontrollable force of nature was more interesting ig

[lean temple]

In an ocean of Void

Anyway, interesting what Hornet says about Lifeblood (or "Plasmium")
"He carelessly seeded these caves with that cursed substance... His final fate seems fair reward for those efforts, yet I feel some sympathy. It is an alluring power."

So yeah. Deadly parasite, cool.

[edgy barn]

You may already know this but Hornet can actually get a plasmium overdose

[lean temple]

I do and it's awesome

It gives a Hiveblood effect but better

[sinful nimbus]

fr?

[edgy barn]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

never really used the lifeblood tool

[lean temple]

You need to keep injecting yourself several times

Ig the Knight is just immune to its power. Hornet says she can resist it but likely isn't fully immune herself.

[edgy barn]

I think the Knight probably can't take full advantage of it due to not being a normal bug. If anybody else used Joni's Blessing, they would probably get the regeneration

[zinc dove]

Isn't this a wyrm's mouth?

[lean temple]

Just looks like one

[whole holly]

it looks like dune bucket

[silk dirge]

you can tell a lot team cherry was inspired by dune

[whole holly]

yeah, wyrm is no brainer

[crisp basalt]

Yeah it gives you the Joni Blessing + Hiveblood combo but with unlimited regeneration

But it makes your bind only heal one hp

[green yoke]

Excellent for platforming

[crisp basalt]

You also kinda have to do it with Architect Crest if you don't want to run from Wormways every time

[whole holly]

has anyone tried this with polyp pouch? i know effect exist but i wanna know how polyp pouch affects it

[crisp basalt]

When you use plasmium with polyp it gives you temporary mask that explodes

[green yoke]

The poison lifeblood hearts explode, you can't overdose since they disappear

[whole holly]

but with enough speed could it be possible?

[green yoke]

No

[keen sedge]

Everybody out, SENSITIVE LORE discussion incoming:

“A self-proclaimed Knight, of no renown. Wields a nail he carved from shellwood, named 'Life Ender.'”

So what’s the conversation on how zote left their mark on pharloom.

[silk dirge]

the worms in blasted steps also

[prisma quail]

Where is this from

[lime nova]

I highly doubt Pharloom is the only kingdom with wood

[keen sedge]

Hollow knight

[gilded beacon]

Is this only a game thing or does it also imply that the poison is so powerful that it also damages lifeblood?
That poison is super toxic

[keen sedge]

It is the only kingdom with “shellwood”, a forest created from its monarch

[prisma quail]

Oh I thought we had a zote reference in SS

[drifting wedge]

Yeah, you play the corpse of the pale king controlled by void in the game

[crisp basalt]

Well you also just injected yourself with poison without further side effects

[lime nova]

I don't see any reason that has to be the case?

[keen sedge]

Greenery and trees aren’t natural to caves. So all of HK and SS greenery is either moss or supernatural

[crisp basalt]

So they probably equal out

[sinful nimbus]

Pale ferns?

[gilded beacon]

Maybe the Lifeblood tanks it, absorbs the venom

[crisp basalt]

Actually, what's the Interaction between Polyp and Flea Brew?

[keen sedge]

I’d say so, since they all grow outward from the pale wrym corpse

[gilded beacon]

And then releases it

[sinful nimbus]

Pale ferns are the white grasses in crossroads n such

[keen sedge]

No clue then

[sinful nimbus]

KE plants are probably supernatural I agree

[keen sedge]

We have a name for those…?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah Wanderer's Journal names em

[keen sedge]

What else does it say

[sinful nimbus]

iirc they just say they grow in crossroads

[gilded beacon]

It works like alcohol and Hornet gets drunk

[keen sedge]

If it calls them special then yeah. Either way the point is that shellwood is unique because it’s spawned from a monarch

and zote uses a shellwood blade

[silk dirge]

wasnt shell wood created by nyleth?

[flat hearth]

Any ideas what the DLC will be about? I really hope they expand on the Pharloom lore a bit feel like it was kinda lacking in the base game

[sinful nimbus]

I think its plausible shellwood can refer to any type of wood

[keen sedge]

“A self-proclaimed Knight, of no renown. Wields a nail he carved from shellwood, named 'Life Ender.'”

Which is why I think Zote’s description is interesting

[silk dirge]

steel assassins maybe

[keen sedge]

I think it’s also plausible that TC thinks zote being a pharloom trespasser/native is funny

[sinful nimbus]

But there's also the option that shellwood got around and was exported from Pharloom or just that Zote is from Pharloom

[flat hearth]

Hopefully they do something with the Masters in general

[keen sedge]

mhm

[gilded beacon]

Maybe shell woof is formed by the shells of plant based bugs, like Sister Splinter

[flat hearth]

There is also that Cthulu lookin cephalapod dude from the old trailer that isn't in the base game

[sinful nimbus]

I think the fact that Ellina recognizes it as Shellwood and doesn't feel the need to explain what Shellwood is would imply its just a widespread word for wood

[keen sedge]

It’s the wood found in literally all of shellwood

[silk dirge]

oh the removed village?

[lean temple]

I really want to meet the Masters for once

[flat hearth]

I think so

[keen sedge]

Yeah but so many bugs are apparently well travelled in other lands

[flat hearth]

I have a high level of confidence they will be in DLC, they were showcased too much to just be cut I think

[keen sedge]

The scrolls in the cradle are interesting for that reason

[loud jasper]

is the forgotten village in the wastelands?

[silk dirge]

yeah

[flat hearth]

Well at least the steel sharpe and crew people

[silk dirge]

the nameless town

[sinful nimbus]

I assume GMS has supernatural knowledge of the world

[loud jasper]

oh thank you

[silk dirge]

i assume all higher beings do

[lean temple]

She has her "Silken sight"

[keen sedge]

Yeah but we also found a rune map

[flat hearth]

I feel like we barely learned anything about her at all, I hope we learn more

[sinful nimbus]

Oh post it

[keen sedge]

one sec

[lean temple]

Yeah in Weavenest Cindril I think

[flat hearth]

Yeah hidden room in Far Fields Weaver place, shows a "rune map" that is like a bunch of trails extending from Pharloom

[lean temple]

Sharpe is a backer character so he's definitely coming at some point. I just hope we actually see the Masters who have been teased for so long now.

[flat hearth]

Yeah I hope so too

[loud jasper]

This games secrets felt too unsecretty I have good hopes on dlcs

[sinful nimbus]

oh cool

[loud jasper]

I mean of course if theres a secret we havent found its cool

[flat hearth]

Yeah it felt a little light to me. Like felt like there should be deeper lore and more payoff for some of the secret areas you find

[loud jasper]

the only one I was really surprised was the first sinner

[flat hearth]

First Sinner was really dope

[silk dirge]

why did some weavers stay some run away

[flat hearth]

Right, like feel like we didn't learn anything substantial about the weavers at all really

[silk dirge]

was it like some weavers didnt like the citadel idea and wanted to distance themselves from it?

[flat hearth]

Maybe base game is just like Hornets character arc really, and DLC will be more about other things

[loud jasper]

I hope so

[silk dirge]

lacenet dlc(for legal reasons this is a joke)

[keen sedge]

It’s also not crazy to think that people who travel the wastes constantly see other kingdoms

[loud jasper]

I liked the fact that hornet calls pale king a fool tho

[flat hearth]

Also feel like they could do alot with the Needolin song that takes you back in time, hopefully they add more areas where you go back in time and expand on the lore that way

[keen sedge]

Shellwood being a big export is also not unusual I feel

[loud jasper]

theres diplomacy and shi, there was something mentioning harrah being given to pale king iirc

so theres alot of reasons for bugs to travel

[flat hearth]

yea no love for dad

[lean temple]

That's definitely the Dream Nail 2.0 yeah

[silk dirge]

why are those counted as hunters journal even lmao

[flat hearth]

Honestly he did kinda fuck up

[keen sedge]

Herrah wanted royal blood in the deepnest family line again, she agreed to be a dreamer conditionally on that note. No gifting from other people or from herself

[loud jasper]

well yes

even the void wasnt hollow at last

[quartz flicker]

where the heck is this

[silk dirge]

nuu after looking at hornets journal and seeing a creature that only exists in a protected dream in a kingdom 1000 miles away

[keen sedge]

Void is in fact hollow, but it isn’t a purely empty substance

[green yoke]

Far Fields weavernest. You need to run through it at maximum speed (anklets + flea brew)

[lean temple]

Weavenest Cindril, Far Fields

[keen sedge]

Nuu begins licking brains. It’s that easy

[loud jasper]

I mean in the act 3 ending the knight had some kind of emotions so that they saved us

he is indeed a little bit of a pale king but isnt he like the shade lord so has control over the void

[keen sedge]

The knight is the least pure vessel out of any vessel we know I’d say

[flat hearth]

He at least cares about his half sister in some capacity lol

[gilded beacon]

Nuu seeing that Hornet likes more a spiky moss buh than them

[keen sedge]

A lack of empathy is also not what purity is.

[green yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-hollow-knight-silksong-silk-song-slap-gif-6143728771866230941

[silk dirge]

i feel like team cherry is maybe telling us that the void is misunderstood and is not just some empty substance

[loud jasper]

hornet loves furries

[keen sedge]

Ya

[loud jasper]

this is what I tried to say but with a little bit of misunderstandings on my side

[gilded beacon]

She does love fluffy things so, yeah

[loud jasper]

pale king being called a fool for tinkering with it, hornets dialog with the pale lady and allat

[keen sedge]

TC also makes a note on how void tendrils CHOOSE to be sharp tentacles that lash out, which I think is important.
In HK I assumed the tendrils looked like that because they were tainted by broken shades

[lean temple]

I hoped we would hear the Pale King's voice in the red memory since we do hear Herrah's voice.

[loud jasper]

oh the journal said they CHOOSE it?

[silk dirge]

honestly i think hornet was much closer to white lady than pk

[keen sedge]

Void has will, yes. We just didn’t know for what purposes, and apparently void is rather malicious

[gilded beacon]

"Mom get out of my Abyss, you wouldn't understand it"

[silk dirge]

so thats why he doesnt appear

[lean temple]

Really? Where?

[keen sedge]

There’s always dlc

[flat hearth]

Hornet had like no relationship with PK

[loud jasper]

I still wonder what happened to the hollow knight tho

[keen sedge]

The deep whispering. During birthplace cutscene and the opening focus tutorial

[silk dirge]

hallownest vocalized

[keen sedge]

SOME tablets

[silk dirge]

i hope no one is insane enough to try making silksong vocalized

[lean temple]

Again would've liked a CLEARER version of his voice, where he's actually talking.

[keen sedge]

I prefer subbed silksong so I can learn buganese faster

[silk dirge]

pharloom vocalized would probably take another like 5 years lmao

[gilded beacon]

Can't wait for Pharloom vocalized with everyone singing

[lean temple]

Pretty sure in canon there are tons of different languages

[keen sedge]

Yeah

Hornet even says so herself.

[sinful nimbus]

We can't hear PK speaking in red memory because Hornet hates his guts and would probably say something like "Only an idiot would try speaking using soul"

[blissful harbor]

hornet got that allspeak

[keen sedge]

though HK uses a common tongue mostly everywhere iirc.

[silk dirge]

red memory was actually such a peak cutscene

[loud jasper]

it was the peakest

[sinful nimbus]

i dont fw red memory

[keen sedge]

Or cause he was killed and erased with void

[silk dirge]

i went into it completely spoilerless and then when parts of hallownest started appearing i was like fuck yeah

[loud jasper]

red memory slang will not be tolerated

[silk dirge]

people hating red memory is wild wtf

[keen sedge]

it’s probably gonna be a lame speedrun section but yeah that was awesome

[sinful nimbus]

Sure its technically possible now that Delicate flower is "the only means we possess to resist that void with which our family is forever linked"

[silk dirge]

red memory hate shall be punished with 10 years in the slab

[loud jasper]

well they made her needle so

hornet just might have wanted to adapt another style of herself after the initial trainings

[sinful nimbus]

There's also wingsmoulds and their entry

[keen sedge]

Void killing PK was always an intuitive answer that was disproven adjacently - they even hinted at void with godseeker dialogue (how could a god so [] be erased so completely…)

[sinful nimbus]

Its not super intuitive

[blissful harbor]

the entry makes sense yall act like hornet is gonna say the absolute truth about everything lmao she can be biased

[keen sedge]

Im just glad they’re actually taking a stance

[sinful nimbus]

I struggle to see how Godseeker's dialogue even indicates void was involved

[keen sedge]

unambiguous < retcon, if it’s even a retcon

[loud jasper]

pale king loves honey

[sinful nimbus]

Well now that we know she made visits to the palace why did she never see Kingsmoulds 🥴

And she's not supposed to be stupid

[blissful harbor]

it’s not stupid to have an opinion
even if it’s incorrect

[sinful nimbus]

"Its not stupid to be obviously wrong"

[keen sedge]

When not as a synonym for some other way to defeat a god, what does “erase” mean

[blissful harbor]

it literally is wtf

[keen sedge]

They even pull the same trick for GMS

[sinful nimbus]

He died and he has no more godly resonance because Godseeker has trouble attuning to higher beings

[keen sedge]

Hornet and all (written) journal entry dialogue comes from the perspective of the writer. Some narrators are actually unreliable

[silk dirge]

what do you think the hive knights blade is made of

[lean temple]

They could have followed instructions from the Weavers. It's not a big stretch if they're skilled enough to do it. The Hive being suddenly metalworkers was a bit odd tho

[sinful nimbus]

Hive knight using steel is also a retcon since he was added later 🥱

[keen sedge]

Metal

[sinful nimbus]

The hivesteel stuff is kinda innocuous though its just kinda weird

[blissful harbor]

bruh
is there something i’m missing or are yall being obtuse
she’s not being an unreliable narrator by expressing her feelings on her fathers work and her opinions on void
we know the kingsmoulds and wingsmould were really good void creations, to hornet it’s just another PK attempt at clutching for his kingdom
like what???

[keen sedge]

Hivesteel is just a cute way to point at three queens which is fine imo

[sinful nimbus]

that's not an opinion its a statement meant to be true

Void did objectively do his bidding in the form of Kingsmoulds

[keen sedge]

I don’t know what the entry is, I’m just pointing out that regardless of what it is, it’s a valid posit of her opinion, and can be contested as fact if other evidence is available

[blissful harbor]

doesn’t change that’s not how hornet sees it???

[gilded beacon]

Yeah, it doesn't break anything + I think it's neat to have a little more of hive lore

[clever grove]

Oh shit she's talking about the Pale King

[keen sedge]

I don’t think so no

[loud jasper]

one of the vessels was my thought

[blissful harbor]

she knows how volatile and dangerous it is, makes sense she thinks it shouldn’t be contained
once again yal are acting like she’s supposed to be just completely infallible

[keen sedge]

What’s this yall thing

What even is the entry lol

[clever grove]

I meant PK making the mistake of his focus on THK's lack of thought

[narrow glacier]

She fights like the Hive Knight tho

[sinful nimbus]

A crude construct of my father's fallen domain. Only a fool believes that void can be fashioned to do their bidding.

[keen sedge]

What’s the big deal

[blissful harbor]

?????

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway GOOD characters usually need a valid reason to be wrong narratively this isn't really the case

Hornet says something wrong this reveals nothing logical about her character it just makes her look stupid

[blissful harbor]

it reveals she doesn’t respect PK

[keen sedge]

She thinks PK was misguided in using the void. Which I think he kinda was pretty desperate at the time.

[blissful harbor]

idk what you mean

[sinful nimbus]

Why though

[woven vine]

I forgot, did we give anything to Yarnaby as payment for her, uh, service?

[uncut holly]

I think the Pale King knew what he was doing, he had some level of Foresight after all

[loud jasper]

pk failed at the end

[keen sedge]

Whats wrong with having daddy issues and being biased against said daddy

[narrow glacier]

We upgraded her thingy for her

[sinful nimbus]

Nah she just asked you to put in a good word for her at Bellhart

[uncut holly]

The ability to see the future and see how everything will effect from you doing one action is a very OP and unbeatable power

[keen sedge]

like no shit she doesn’t respect PK, she was a bargaining chip in his eyes

[uncut holly]

He basically controlled the entire world with his ability of Foresight and the only down side is that it might not have been that far into the future

[keen sedge]

Like not understanding how void works and making a bazillion vessels anyways

[uncut holly]

But still Pale King would have had more control over the choices in the world than anyone else would because he could see how they would react to his actions

[narrow glacier]

Foresight could also be imperfect. You could see the top of the mountain, but maybe not know which path is the most stable to get there

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but this is very irrational and adds little to the story

[loud jasper]

like believing he could achieve a pure vessel andallat

[uncut holly]

He basically got to choose. Still had his kingdom collapse because there was no way around it

[narrow glacier]

The void itself could screw with foresight for all we know

[blissful harbor]

how is that irrational

[keen sedge]

Void literally did not do his bidding, the black egg project fails, or would always fail eventually, and a vessel found a new way to solve the problem - eons after PK died and failed to save his legacy

[uncut holly]

I mean if he had full on Foresight, he basically is the only real person in the world with true freedom.

[keen sedge]

the pale king FAILED and it was his fault it was worse than it was.

[loud jasper]

hornet might not like pk for personal reasons but over the usage of void and allat

[keen sedge]

I’m gonna tap the sign

[somber storm]

are sentinel and pinstress related? they use the same X shaped move

[clever grove]

To me I see it more as although he's Hornet's father he was kinda a shitty guy so she doesn't like to consider him her father

[uncut holly]

Because everyone would play into the visions hes seen, that being said it seems like there was no way for him to save his kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel learned pinsmanship from the pinmasters

[narrow glacier]

Tbf, he wasn’t wrong. Maybe he did see that there was a vessel that could contain/defeat the radiance(ghost) but maybe he couldn’t tell which one it would be.

[uncut holly]

And we also dont know how far he could see

[sinful nimbus]

So the sentinel is mimicking the pinstress's technique

[keen sedge]

TLDR: there is like no conclusion in which foresight matters at all

[silk dirge]

my interpretation of it is she was saying only a fool would mess with the void

[sinful nimbus]

That is not what she says

[keen sedge]

Underlined/italics means I think it’s not likely or nonsense

[silk dirge]

its a reasonable interpretation

[keen sedge]

Yes

[blissful harbor]

only my interpretation is correct ofc

[sinful nimbus]

No because thats not what doing someons bidding means

That pretty clearly means Hornet thinks PK was unable to get void constructs to obey him

[keen sedge]

What exactly is a successful use of void anyways

[sinful nimbus]

In this context its obeying PK and doing his bidding

[keen sedge]

or a reasonable reason to use the demon liquid as a tool or weapon

[uncut holly]

I mean if we assume that the Radiance could only be stopped by killing it, and that the only way to kill the Radiance is the way we do it in game, which seems likely that that is the only way to kill the Radiance. Then there might not have been many avenues for the Pale King to take

[sinful nimbus]

Kingsmoulds did that

[uncut holly]

I mean you can have future sight but not have the power to avert something from happening, only question is on the Pale Kings death

Like him having full on Foresight everything makes sense except for his Death, that or the Void is able to somehow trascend reality to get him? Or he committed suicide.

[keen sedge]

If you think void killed PK then I’d say it’s the KM’s fault. Collector terrorizing the kingdom seems a mistake,
And even if all the KMs are infallible, they were all just experiments leading up to a vessel.

in fact, I think PK made KMs BEFORE the infection, which is definitely just reckless.

[uncut holly]

Which hes a vain guy, so i dunno if he would do that

[sinful nimbus]

"If you think the obviously wrong thing is wrong then its true"
Collector was influenced by external factors

Kingsmoulds were experiments in response to the infection as implied by the workshop tablet

[uncut holly]

I think the Collector was a Kingsmould given to the Tower of Love guy to preserve the creatures of Hallownest, and went insane and killed the Tower of Love guy

[silk dirge]

where is this confirmed

[dry heart]

why do we think pale king has foresight now is this new? cause i see so many ppl talking about it

[keen sedge]

ooh neat

[uncut holly]

The Collector is likely Void and seems to have a weird motive to collect things and put them in jars

[keen sedge]

It’s mentioned twice as “he has foresight” and one of those times it’s said as “so what’s the point of it”

[uncut holly]

Pale King always had the ability to see the future, its debated though much how good it was

[keen sedge]

Literally no other info

[sinful nimbus]

Deities don't have an excuse to be hubristic when they got neg diffed by 4 bugs

[clever grove]

Did we forget that he sacrificed hundreds of the vessels who were his children? He didn't do everything right

[keen sedge]

I already tapped the sign, tldr: it’s useless and doesn’t change the story so like whatever

[uncut holly]

I mean the places where its mentioned are really important. He got the mushrooms on his side with his Foresight

[loud jasper]

hell

a fucking ant bite him and he felt like dying

[lean temple]

All Wyrms had that ability

[loud jasper]

hornet doesnt tho

[uncut holly]

Theres really only two options for how Pale King died unless its a Deus Ex Machina

[clever grove]

I'm pretty sure he died by the Void

[uncut holly]

Either he committed suicide, or the Void got him

[lean temple]

She's half Wyrm. Maybe she can develop it later

[loud jasper]

that would be dope

[uncut holly]

Maybe he used the Void to commit suicide

[clever grove]

The Void particles in the throne room are a pretty good indicator

[uncut holly]

I think its likely Void

[lean temple]

When he talks to her?

[sinful nimbus]

Dude grabbed a delicate flower and poured some void on it 😔

[uncut holly]

Nothing else reasonably could have killed the Pale King, not even the Radiance.

[sinful nimbus]

There's no reason to assume void was involved

[clever grove]

I don't think he committed suicide. He was very persistent about stopping the infection

[sinful nimbus]

Its clear he gave up after the second wave

[silk dirge]

i honestly just think hornet means in that journal entry that void can easily go rogue

[uncut holly]

Void could kill him likely

[lean temple]

I don't think that was a literal nod at Wyrm foresight.

[umbral silo]

R u allowed to talk about spoilers here

[uncut holly]

Ye

[graceful wigeon]

I got a lore question, regarding the finale of the game. Where would it be appropriate to ask? (Since I'm not seeing a spoilers channel)

Is this appropriate for it?

[umbral silo]

Do u get the to be continued screen even if you don’t do the mister mushroom quest?

[silk dirge]

its possible you can "make the void do your bidding" in stuff like kings moulds and wingmoulds but they can easily turn on you

[uncut holly]

Any spoilers go here

[silk dirge]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

this channel is fine, spoilers are allowed

[blissful harbor]

they’re like perfect robots

[narrow glacier]

I still don’t think it was suicide. Probably just so worn down and depressed that he couldn’t stop the void from claiming him

[sinful nimbus]

For what purpose

[blissful harbor]

“perfect”
ignore the death goo inside

[clever grove]

How do we know that?

[umbral silo]

Btw was the thing that saved hornet in the last cutscene the knight or the hollow knight?

[uncut holly]

I dont think it was his Kingsmoulds that killed him, I think it was the Void itself at some date, we see Void Fume Particles all the way up to Ancient Basin entrance, it likely wasnt there before because the Abyss is far away

[sinful nimbus]

Well he dipped from the kingdom to the dream realm and put a giant seal on it to prevent anyone from entering and booby trapped the entire place so he could be alone

[narrow glacier]

Little Ghost/The Knight

[silk dirge]

that doesnt mean they cant go rogue later

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they go rogue

[silk dirge]

i mean look at the knight in embrace the void

[clever grove]

That's not him giving up that's preventing the infection from spreading to his palace

[silk dirge]

thats a pretty clear example of void going rogue

[blissful harbor]

not how the infection works

[uncut holly]

I dont think Void came out the Kingsmoulds, I think it entered the dream somehow from the Abyss, because we see abyss fumes going up to the entrance of Ancient Basin, where normally they should be sealed down

[sinful nimbus]

Not in the way you suggest

[edgy barn]

The Knight is an actual creature though

[obsidian quail]

isn’t hornet just using the moulds as a springboard to comment on the overall failure of the vessel project in her journal

[clever grove]

Yes it is??

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels have real minds they aren't just programmed robots animated by void

[uncut holly]

Kingsmoulds arent vessels though

[silk dirge]

like i genuinely think my interpretation is probably what team cherry meant and they just worded it badly

[uncut holly]

We dont know how automaton like Kingsmoulds and Wingsmoulds are

[sinful nimbus]

Also ETV isn't TK being overcome by the void inside it or whatever

[lean temple]

By attacking his children, who are also Void. It's just funny they don't realise this at all

[blissful harbor]

it’s not, the infection doesn’t spread physically it wouldn’t matter where his palace was
it’s dreamborn, if anything that would be worse lmao
he moved to the dream realm to be alone, not to get away from the infection

[graceful wigeon]

(Taking a while to actually properly word my question because well, I don't want to cause a controversy or be booed at for asking it.)

[dry heart]

ok so a question- when kratt spied on hornet bathing... uhm.... why was that weird? Like obviously it kinda was but its not like hornet took off her cloak 😭

where even is bugs genitalia anyway obviously it wouldnt be shown in game but it makes me wonder

[obsidian quail]

idk if she was directly talking about the moulds, seems like she was just saying in the big scheme ?

[uncut holly]

You wont be booed out, and if you are thats their problem

But no ones gonna boo you

[obsidian quail]

smack him around, u can juggle him

[sinful nimbus]

No amount of fancy wording can save bad writing alas

[whole holly]

i heard that kingsmoulds are made with Soul Void and Essence, Essence and Soul are used to imprint life and purpose to Void, or atleast that is what i know from HK lore

[dry heart]

no i know but why did he even spy 😭

[lean temple]

At least Hornet herself may not have any visible but Kratt is still a creep.

[rigid vale]

He invaded her privacy

[obsidian quail]

pervert bug

[clever grove]

You can't dream inside of the dream realm. He literally put the palace inside one of the KM. Which is made of void

[dry heart]

so hornet can't have children?? (im ACTUALLY asking for lore reasons i swear)

[umbral silo]

You guys think pure vessel will be the protagonist of the next game, he’s alive in the DLC ending

[dry heart]

and if not why?

[silk dirge]

i guess ill just accept that its one journal entry no one is perfect

[umbral silo]

I think a sibling trilogy would be good

[sinful nimbus]

Its indicative of a much wider issue of how TC portrayed the void in SS

[blissful harbor]

not to escape the infection idk why you think that
and you absolutely can lmao, dream nail still works

[silk dirge]

but i still will sentence any red memory slander to 10 years jn the slab

[uncut holly]

Something I have noticed is whenever the Pale King is ever brought up, ever, ever. It always entirely turns into Pale King

[lean temple]

She may be able to through magic idk. I believe PK and WL had Vessels through magical means

[loud jasper]

it just wouldnt fit the gameplay I think

[sinful nimbus]

Also HK journal entries are all bangers, they just lost their touch

[uncut holly]

I mean Pale King is cool

[clever grove]

There's a difference between having thoughts and dreaming

[blissful harbor]

anyways PK wouldn’t have a need to run from the infection

[uncut holly]

Pale King is almost definitely immune to the infection

[obsidian quail]

on the one hand i can see what hornet was maybe trying to say cuz he failed because he didn’t understand the void fully, on the other he was batting 1000 in controlling it besides the Lighthouse

[whole holly]

whereas Automatons are animated and controlled with Silk

[silk dirge]

yeah

its a massive risk

[uncut holly]

The Radiance is presumeably on the Pale Kings level, but they are set up differently. The Radiance cant be punched in the face its immaterial, the only way we do it is with the Void unified we can go after it in the dream realm within ourselves

[silk dirge]

its like the void isnt as empty as we thought but it acts in its own dangerous ways

[gilded beacon]

Did the WL actually raise Hornet?

[sinful nimbus]

"OMG I hate my dad guys!!!!! I just want to go and cuddle with fluffy and cute things all day!!!" vs. "Did you know you can get totally stoned on gulka venom. Also I killed my dog."

[silk dirge]

yes

[lean temple]

People still complained about the HK journal. Not like people won't always complain no matter what

[gilded beacon]

Did she called her "Hornet"

[sinful nimbus]

HK journal was goated though

[umbral silo]

That was the bee lady she trained with

[silk dirge]

idk probably

[obsidian quail]

i wonder why they made no male weavers

interesting choice

herrah is old as fuck

[gilded beacon]

Yeah, but why did the WL raise her and not give her a name, but her trainer calls her after herself??

[clever grove]

Having dreams inside the dream realm doesn't even make any sense

[gilded beacon]

Feels kinda weird

[silk dirge]

inception:

[sinful nimbus]

It is kinda interesting how the amount of weaver in a weavers bloodline is going to dwindle

[obsidian quail]

it’s actually funny how every weaver looks the same but herrah hahahaha

[umbral silo]

Seems like she was more personally connected with the WL, she was raised by a bunch of weavers and I think they all just called her princess or smthn

She probably just like the name hornet more cuz she likes her mentor and the weavers didn’t really like raiser her like a mother

Prob got a weaver name too

[clever grove]

Are you saying someone can have an infinite amount of dreams within their dream? Seriously?

[loud jasper]

he just referenced broski

[silk dirge]

*she but yeah

[obsidian quail]

i love the weavers but i wanna see more wyrms

[gilded beacon]

There are only female weavers right?
That may explain why they wanted Hornet to be a weaver so badly, to preserve their legacy

[loud jasper]

sorry

[sinful nimbus]

I love weavers and wyrms but I want to see something new 😔

[clever grove]

Not familiar with the reference

[silk dirge]

how its like a super well known movie what

[graceful wigeon]

OK, think I got the right wording. So here goes.

So! I liked the game's story in general. But I was left confused at one major aspect.

Why oh why is the final act focused on Silk's motherly feelings for Lace, feelings never really implied before this point, and Lace's potential redemption, when Silk is practically "Radiance lite" in the way the enemies we're fighting are mostly her fault and Lace is gleefully cruel and gladly accepts the corruption of the Abyss, whose only off-screen mentions involve how much she likes killing things?

It just feels absurd for Hornet to go out of her way to save villains who honestly feel about as redeemable as the Radiance from the first game.

[clever grove]

I've heard of it just haven't seen it

[loud jasper]

Inception is a movie in which people enter other peoples dreams and inside those dreams enter even more dreams and shi

[obsidian quail]

yeah the story doesn’t hit

[sinful nimbus]

Silk wanting a child was pretty implied

[obsidian quail]

but weavers ftw

[loud jasper]

why not

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't really matter why do wyrms want to build kingdoms

[obsidian quail]

she doesn’t have enough characterization methinks

[lean temple]

She saves Lace so GMS can just accept death and stop fighting with the Void

[edgy barn]

The pure vessel has the issue of being huge. A Game where they are playable would need to be either prequel to when they were small or set on some sort of land of giants.

[obsidian quail]

but wow that design

[zinc dove]

Is this Hallownest?? Or does the abyss spread through the world

[uncut holly]

We know there where two children from Grand Mother Silk. Lace and Phantom. Both likely existed the before the Citadel

[loud jasper]

the latter

[umbral silo]

They can make it be like a gimmick where he lost all his power and is back in tiny form after godseeker dlc

[lean temple]

There's an Abyss everywhere

[umbral silo]

Like how hornet loses her silk

[obsidian quail]

the GMS and Lace thing i thought was pretty ass idk

[loud jasper]

he was still huge after the embrace the void ending

[vocal night]

I really need @woven wharf to check his dm’s its very important

[uncut holly]

If the Citadel of Song was made to contain Grand Mother Silk it would make sense that both Lace and Phantom where completely ok with it, as they hate their mother.

[obsidian quail]

that is pretty crazy

[silk dirge]

and also its heavily implied hornet feels bad for lace in the journal entry where she says even a life spun from silk is a life

[tawdry flare]

Did you ping mossbag with an AI analysis

[obsidian quail]

i think this story requires a little too much much “just go with it”

very much a spectacle

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think an irrational villain is a bad thing

[lean temple]

I dislike that part too

[vocal night]

One of the sacred cylinders is this song

[uncut holly]

We know that Grand Mother Silk is a Higher Being is Soul because Silk is just transformed Soul

[sinful nimbus]

Does it matter

[silk dirge]

people act irrationally all the time

[arctic mountain]

She just woke up she's cranky

[lean temple]

Because she just is? The Higher Beings are not infallible

[silk dirge]

why do people act irrationally? because they do

[uncut holly]

We presumeably could not have killed Grand Mother Silk any other way than binding them and absorbing them like we do the Weavers.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure

[tawdry flare]

Because she loves her daughter (unlike the Pale King)

[uncut holly]

GMS probably could be killed, but seeing how much Soul they have in reserve against the Void its not something a normal bug can do

[obsidian quail]

was she even a villain

[tawdry flare]

Yes

[silk dirge]

if someone is acting irrational irl you dont go up and ask them why are they acting that way unless your a weirdo

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she's pretty nasty

[obsidian quail]

that’s what i mean personally, idk enough about anything to say how she is

it’s not given any depth

[uncut holly]

GMS created the Weavers, she told them they where her daughters, and they believed they where divine children of their faith. It was revealed that this was a lie, they where Pharlids. I dont know what wedged a rift between GMS and the Weavers

But it could have been they where being sacrificed for Lace and Phantom

[graceful wigeon]

I admit I partly wanted to view Silk as less actively evil and more apathetic, with Lace going crazy from neglect and being the actual wielder, mostly because it made for something more interesting.

I'm actually dreading that GMS is properly in control and behind everything because she honestly feels like Radiance minus what made Radiance actually interesting.

[obsidian quail]

u would think the most significant event in the story would have better context

[uncut holly]

Somehow both Phantom and Lace survived GMS's imprisonment, if Lace was around back then, however we know Phantom was.

[loud jasper]

the first game rested on alot of idks too.

[obsidian quail]

i’m reading ya mr yagami

[loud jasper]

but definitely gms needed more lore

[whole holly]

what are Pharlids?

[uncut holly]

It might just be that they felt betrayed after learning the truth and turned their back, but that doesnt really make any sense especially seeing as we have Pale King across the street who did something similar and was heralded as a god

[silk dirge]

i think lore is definitely not team cherrys strongest thing

[uncut holly]

Pharlids are little spider bugs

[obsidian quail]

idk how i’m supposed to really feel about anything cuz it felt like shit just happened and i don’t really know why i guess

[whole holly]

oh, spiders

[uncut holly]

They where tiny, and GMS ascended them

Well they where like dog sized

[obsidian quail]

it is pretty absurd

[lean temple]

PK didn't lie to everyone telling them they were his divine children. He told the truth. You were wild and I gave you minds.

[obsidian quail]

and her and lace relationship was pretty ass

[silk dirge]

isnt this the other way around gms created the weavers but she wasnt a piece of shit back then the weavers built the citadel to take control from her

[uncut holly]

Yeah he did, his people thought he created the world and everything in it

[graceful wigeon]

I wouldn't say it's not their strong point; GMS and Act 3 actually stand out because otherwise, HK1 and most of HK2 stick the landing. But that they messed up Act 3 of HK2 so much makes me wonder if they wrote Act 3 last minute.

[lean temple]

Well he never says it himself i dont think, and you'd assume your god did something like that. He didn't correct that lie but he wasn't an awful diety

[green yoke]

AS FAR AS I KNOW:

GMS created the weavers out of pharlids

As for the mistreatment idk

She didn't abandon them, she was abandoned BY them, hence her making a new, controllable daughter in the form of a silk being (Lace)

She was confined (again, by the weavers in their bid for freedom)

[obsidian quail]

i mean act 3 is just an extension of the base foundation and the base foundation wasn’t very strong

[uncut holly]

I mean I think it adds up in that the Pale King wanted to be worship. It makes sense he would style himself as the god of everything

[lean temple]

Why or who made Eva

[whole holly]

are Pharlids in game, like without GMS given abilites?

[silk dirge]

yes

[uncut holly]

The only other higher beings around where the White Lady and Unn

[green yoke]

They're the little wall crawling spiders

[obsidian quail]

Weavers trying to make their own divine being

[uncut holly]

Pharlids are in Blasted Steps

[whole holly]

Weavers made her

[lean temple]

Which would piss off GMS

[uncut holly]

Yeah but he didnt make everything like his citizens thought

[whole holly]

ohh, yeah i get it now

[obsidian quail]

we don’t know when they did that and nothing really says that was the case

[uncut holly]

I mean maybe

The lore around Phantom and Lace is interesting though. Phantom seemingly has power with their steam music, they created The Mist, and possibly the Silk Wraiths in it.

Or the Silk Wraiths might be weird byproducts of them somehow?

[uneven sandal]

I know that this discussion has been brought up several times by this point, but if Godseeker were to still be alive would that imply that the only canon ending for hollow knight is Dream No More, given how Embrace the Void erases the godseeker and with the delicate flower the shade lord is sealed

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[silk dirge]

phantom was tasked with removing all the waste from the citadel through the exhaust organ

[sinful nimbus]

Unless they retconned something

[tawdry flare]

They would never!

[uncut holly]

Yeah but Phantom is also GMS's first child made of Silk

[sinful nimbus]

Retconning something to bring in old story elements from HK would be unheard of

[uncut holly]

We see memories of them talking with Lace

[silk dirge]

thats why bilewater is like that all the shit that got removed from the citadel fucked it up

[uncut holly]

And I think Lace visits their boss arena at some point after the fight and doesnt fight you just sits there

[sinful nimbus]

Exhaust organ is cool

[steady turtle]

does act 3 wormways imply lifeblood/plasmum are somehow connected?

[tawdry flare]

Really? I haven’t heard about that

[uncut holly]

The Mist is my favorite place

[tawdry flare]

They are the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

same substance

[uncut holly]

The Slab is also really good

Lace is a Psychopath who killed her own mom for focussing on someone else

GMS was put to sleep by the Weavers and is in the process of "waking"

[sinful nimbus]

Killing her mom is a good thing tbf

[silk dirge]

bilewater is the definition of sacrificing gameplay for world building lol

[uncut holly]

Their waking was likely due to the turncoating of Widow who was the Weaver Musician

[uncut holly]

Its a darksouls poison swamp, its intentional

[silk dirge]

the gameplay sucks bc everyone there is pissed off that their home that used to look like the fleatopia lake was ruined by the citadel

[whole holly]

how is GMS Wyrmlike?

[steady turtle]

in that case, i can understand why the knight can use lifeblood in the first game, but in silksong, that basically means hornet is injecting void into her body with no repercussions?

[silk dirge]

and then groal the goat just fucking got vs from somewhere

[lean temple]

Same thing. Zylotol just names Lifeblood Plasmium

[sinful nimbus]

Bilewater wasn't that bad

[steady turtle]

oh wait, i didn't ask the question i meant to...

[lean temple]

What? Who says Lifeblood is Void?

[uncut holly]

You are able to play music on the needolin to normal enemies, and when this happens they will be struck by a piece of thread that changes mattering on where you are from the Cradle. You can then read their thoughts while their singing

[silk dirge]

the runback is the main issue

[steady turtle]

sorry, i asked the wrong question...

[tawdry flare]

Lifeblood isn’t void, but it seems to be bad in large doses ||now||

[sinful nimbus]

After the first runback you should probably begin looking for a closer bench

[silk dirge]

the groal runback i think is one of the games few large weakenesses

[silk dirge]

i literally used that its not much better

[uncut holly]

The Silk is seemingly some kind of thing related to thoughts and memory, aswell as it can deliberately be transfered from soul to silk. GMS powers and reasoning are interesting we just dont know enough or more like I dont know enough

[steady turtle]

so is there some connection between lifeblood and void

[lean temple]

I lucked out and got a good cycle

[silk dirge]

the frog ninja guys need to get nerfed imo

[tawdry flare]

The government requires I say no

[silk dirge]

they just pop out whenever they want and are impossible to hit

[uncut holly]

Unlike the Pale King and the Radiance GMS's motivation isnt to be worshipped its to have a Child.

[silk dirge]

and then they have like aimbot

[tawdry flare]

BUT

[lean temple]

There's a secret bench closer to him but yeah the run back sucks

[uncut holly]

Somehow all of GMS's motivations are tied to both Lace and Phantom

[sinful nimbus]

Sinners road is worse be fr

[whole holly]

well there is Lifeblood Door in Abyss where Abyss Creature and Lifeblood Charm is but that's about it

[teal shell]

sinners road is not that bad

[silk dirge]

sinners road is not worse than bilewater

[sinful nimbus]

Muck roaches

[teal shell]

its awful if your new and dont know how to use the diagonal down attack

[silk dirge]

they are annoying but are easily avoidable

[whole holly]

especially those croc looking bugs

[covert tusk]

So is there any lore reason why while most Voided out characters are just greyed out but mostly the same

[uncut holly]

I believe what is being implied by the game is that everything that happens in the entire game, was all because GMS tried to maintain Lace, and Phantom but Phantom is dying when you meet t hem

[lean temple]

The areas with Maggot water are the worst in the game. All 3 of them

[covert tusk]

Lost Lace is entirely black?

[whole holly]

but not as easy to fight, they fight dirty

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is made entirely of silk

[teal shell]

being directly in the void probably effects tou a little more than just having it infect you

that and lace is silk

[uncut holly]

So it might have been the Citadel and the Weavers who did that. We know for the Green Dancers it was all the Weavers. And the others are likely the same

The Weavers in reality suck, and posed themselves as gods.

[turbid flint]

how the hell do you get that one ending cutscene where instead of silk covering all of citadel its pieces of string droppjng down slowly

[uncut holly]

Them at their burial shrines being deified

[silk dirge]

i feel like it depends some weavers left they mightve been not too happy with what was going on

[turbid flint]

is this supposed to be part of weaver queen ending but they forgot to put it in?

[uncut holly]

Also its likely the Weavers killed Nyleth the creator of Shellwood and the Stickbugs. Nyleth when she was alive stopped the Stick Bugs from eatting people, when they died they started eatting people.

[clever grove]

Damn ig I know nothing about the lore mb y'all

[uncut holly]

The Nameless Town atop of Pharloom their memories mention being seduced and led along by the Weavers almost hypnotically down into the Citadel. I believe the entire Citadel is predicated on mind control

Thats how it started I believe

[teal shell]

and capatalism

[tawdry flare]

Seems to be unused/scrapped

[silk dirge]

isnt that the cursed ending

[teal shell]

the citadel invented bug capitalism

[turbid flint]

oh

[uncut holly]

The Weavers did stuff like bred Moorwing, who is a giant specially bred flying Mite (As in the Flying Mice) whos job was to hunt down and eat people from Sinners Road and Greymoor who tried to run away from their duties that they where born into

The Weavers probably started this by mind controlling people and then turned it into cultural phenomena, all the natural born natives of pharloom where pressed into servitude or exterminated by them. They didnt like any powers other than themself

[whole holly]

Pharloom lore is just Silk Capitalism, when Hornet arrives it is at late stage capitalism

[uncut holly]

Theres also two groups of Weavers, the ones who left and the ones who stayed. There was a schism

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like the weavers were simply motivated by power

[uncut holly]

The ones who stayed did some real bad stuff

[whole holly]

is there Hivemind in Pharloom, how does Silk mind control works?

[silk dirge]

which doesnt need any explanation some people are just power hungry

[teal shell]

hallownest had a currency but atleast it wasnt exploiting the lower class into solely benefiting the rich

[uncut holly]

Grand Mother Silk is the origin of the Silk and the Hivemind. Everyone in Pharloom is seemingly tied into this idea of "Silken" memory

[clever grove]

I was sharing thoughts and got absolutely bombarded with how much I was wrong

[tawdry flare]

Yes

[whole holly]

Hivemind of Weavers or all Bugs in Pharloom?

[maiden meteor]

So, I assume Mount Fay Silkshot is actual intended design?

[clever grove]

Might just stick with the other channels

[uncut holly]

The only person who i have found that you cannot read the thoughts of, is Greyroot (Who could be a higher being or a being of decent power) and Weavers, aswell as Lace, and GMS

Im at Phantom now, I dont think Phantom is going to let me make them sing during a boss fight

There are times where we see Lace and you dont fight them, maybe i could get them to sing there?

See if you can see their thoughts

[teal shell]

this is the ss lore channel, this shit SERIOUS

[maiden meteor]

maybe Greyroot is like a virus so it’ isn’t a proper lifeform at all

[tawdry flare]

It’s a parasitical tree or something

[uncut holly]

You could be right we know jack!

[whole holly]

well, something IS different about them

[teal shell]

is greyroot like those fungi that eat bug brains and make them climb to the highest point to spread the spores

[maiden meteor]

Witch singing almost make it seem like it’s trying to mimic normal bugs

[silk dirge]

based off this conversation i think my opinion is silksong lore isnt terrible but it has a few bad spots and lore isnt team cherrys strongest thing

[clever grove]

Still waiting on the mossbag video cuz I treat his answers like gospel

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is a Root and seems to be the same species as White Lady

Well their both roots but they also seem to be different

[lean temple]

Pharloom tried stuffing bugs with Silk to make them immortal. GMS was able to manipulate them by the thread within

[clever grove]

Yeah I can tell

[teal shell]

they could be fungus in some capacity because mushrooms still have root iirc

[uncut holly]

Mossbag videos not gonna be out in a while tbh

This is alot to take in

[clever grove]

Mhm

[silk dirge]

like i think you can argue about specific details but for me what matters is was it fun and interesting in game which the answer for me is yes

[edgy barn]

Pavo mentions that Hornet is not Greyroot's first victim

[teal shell]

i think we also forget hk did have like 4 dlcs worth of extra lore to help it

[uncut holly]

If he makes a definitive lore video, or someone else does it gonna be way later when we know what the actualy inciting incident of GMS Weaver fallout is

[whole holly]

apart from Hornet(in endings) GMS and Shade Lord, are there contenders for Higher Beings?

[lean temple]

They are the same or a very related species to White Lady. However they're not a higher being or a Pale root

[silk dirge]

pale king, nightmare heart, white lady, unn are all higher beings

[uncut holly]

Phantom is a pretty out of the way boss, but its really cool and I feel like its gonna get alot of attention from the Speedrunner community.

[edgy barn]

Considering that Greyroot sort of "dies", after the quest, I believe it's like a cycle, the Greyroot we meet had previously been a normal bug consumed by the parasite.

[teal shell]

is gms wife material

[silk dirge]

nyleth reminds me a lot of unn i wonder if they are also a sort of higher being similar to them

[clever grove]

The lore is one of my favorite parts honestly. But since it's obscure enough it's mostly interpretation and speculation. Which makes it frustrating for me when I give an interpretation of some lore and people explain to me why it's all wrong. Like yeah maybe it is but at the end of the day it's just discussion and speculation

[teal shell]

so greyroot could be a kind of parasitic fungi then, it’d explain it being some sort of “root” akin to wl

[uncut holly]

The current speedrunner meta is to go through The Mist, it is the fastest path and the only path that is viable for time. The Mist is also really cool but also gives random aspects so every speed run is now variable

[whole holly]

mushrooms don't have root them have mycelium, but there are parasitic plants that don't photosynthesize and look pale/white in real life, but i think both are parasitic plants

[teal shell]

they look like rootd tho innit

[maiden meteor]

Btw do we know how did Wyrms even die out

[teal shell]

my evidence is extremely smart and nuanced

[silk dirge]

i mean hk any% had uumuu so whats wrong with having the mist

[maiden meteor]

like they had foresight AND rebirth powers

[whole holly]

me too, but everyone says Nyleth is like Isma, but she seems more powerful

[silk dirge]

maybe bardoon means all of them reincarnated

[teal shell]

over confidence prob, overlooking certain details

[maiden meteor]

Did they just turn into PKs but in other kingdoms or decided it was time to go

[silk dirge]

probably a mix of both

[teal shell]

if you coukd see the future in some capacity itd prob be easy to overlook some details that eventually build up to ur death

[uncut holly]

They definitely arent a normal bug, and they definitely arent the end result of the parasite. Greyroot is seemingly their own being, I believe their a higher being and the only other higher being in Pharloom besides GMS. They are a spin on what White Lady does with "Birth", instead their are "Rebirth" where they use people as hosts to "Rebirth" themself and come back stronger potentially with the strength of the host. They have been around a long time and theres a unique ending where they Restrain GMS and can kill them without the use of Binding.

[maiden meteor]

I think PK could likely survive to modern day but was too depressed to go on and succumbed either to his own hands or void

[uncut holly]

The reason why theres no other way besides Hornet assuming GMS's place is because GMS is too powerful to kill besides Binding them like a Weaver.

[edgy barn]

So a body hopper?

[uncut holly]

Weavers and beigns tide in with The Silk seem to be able to absorb each other and each others memories via Binding

[maiden meteor]

yeah

[uncut holly]

Not really a body hopper, after it bursts out of the Host its the same Greyroot again but stronger. Maybe it looks different?

[sinful nimbus]

why are we hating on viruses

[teal shell]

so could greyroot be like the fungus that “steals” a hosts body and uses it to get to an advantageous point to spread its spores further

[uncut holly]

We see that the end result of it parasitizing people is them being a frozen statue in roots, we see this fate happen to both Grand Mother Silk and Hornet at the same time

[whole holly]

but all Higher Beings have traits that Greyroot doesn't have, like some force (void, essence, soul, silk ) they have control over and can use it to create

[lean temple]

Possible all of them met a similar end to PK, and there isn't anything or anyone making new Wyrms

[uncut holly]

I think Greyroot is a strange plant like creature that infests people, and then uses them to come back again but bigger and stronger

[maiden meteor]

I think normally bud just bursts out of its victim to become new witch

[uncut holly]

It does have offspring but I think their just extensions of itself

Its rebirth so it isnt a new Witch its the same Witch

[teal shell]

that fungus im talking about sprouts out the head of ants and is quite long and skinny, it adds up imo

[uncut holly]

She rebirths herself through infecting people, coming back stronger with their strength.

Oh yeah Cordyceps

But it doesnt really control you

[teal shell]

fuck yeah thats its name i couldnt remember

[teal shell]

it doesnt but that could just be creative liberties using a real thing as a basis

[maiden meteor]

I mean can’t really make Higher Beings, those just seem to be primordial creatures

[uncut holly]

Yeah maybe, Im pretty sure they are meant to be the same type of creature as White Lady, but a little different. People debate that White Lady might be a type of mycellium although they are called a Root. Greyroot is also called a Root.

[teal shell]

it explains how its kinda weirdly strong as the mushrooms are just weird thenselves

[sinful nimbus]

Who says you can't make Higher Beings

[crisp basalt]

Lady might just be Godly Root

[sinful nimbus]

They are just deities, The Knight becomes one

[crisp basalt]

Same Way Radiance is Godly Moth

[uncut holly]

Maybe, this could act as a weird origin story for how a Root can be a Higher Being

[sinful nimbus]

This is not an apt description

[blissful harbor]

rad isn’t a moth

[crisp basalt]

I know it's other way

[uncut holly]

I mean Greyroot has been around a long time. It could also just be that White Lady and Greyroot are just naturally god like beings.

[whole holly]

i believe they are more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropa_uniflora

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think greyroot is a HB

[teal shell]

i think that root is an overall “species” of mushroom or something similar, white lady just happens to be a higher being one where as greyroot is trying to become one

[maiden meteor]

Knight is 1) Void (a primordial force) 2) Has part of King’s soul (also a Higher Being) and 3) gets insane power boost from Godseekers’ focus

so it’s likely out of ordinary case

[sinful nimbus]

Void is not inherently a higher being

[crisp basalt]

Could also be that's just how Roots are, and Pale Lady is a Root that successful parasatised a Pale being at some point and became one Herself

[blissful harbor]

tk becomes a hb without godseekers help

[sinful nimbus]

Also it doesn't need godseeker's focus

[whole holly]

but Mushrooms are clearly distinct and existing on their own

[uncut holly]

Higher beings arent a type of creature its more of a status you can attain

[sinful nimbus]

The fact is TK wasn't a higher being and now it is

[maiden meteor]

Lord of Shades is literally “Void given focus”

[teal shell]

new species innit

[blissful harbor]

i’m taking this theory as my own now thank you

[sinful nimbus]

No

Lord of Shades refers to The Knight with Void Heart

[teal shell]

the void isnt the higher being, the knight is

the void is just its own thing

[whole holly]

well, roots especially white lady resemble this plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropa_uniflora

[teal shell]

didnt know that existed 😀

[sinful nimbus]

Root seems to be a word for plants

[obsidian quail]

just what was the point of the story with GMS

what was the message

[whole holly]

yes, it inherently is, mushrooms lack roots

[teal shell]

aura and hype moments

[sinful nimbus]

Specific types of plants anyway, Whispering Roots would be an example

[teal shell]

motherhood leads to late stage capitalism

[obsidian quail]

what did u guys take away from it

[uncut holly]

HOLY SHOOT I GOT PHANTOM TO SING

[teal shell]

this is somewhat serious bc i cant think of much else

[obsidian quail]

HK had a clear message but i’m struggling to find what SS is trying to convey

[uncut holly]

And im alive!

[blissful harbor]

something about familial control

[uncut holly]

They said "Discarded" "Forgotten" then immediately broke out of it

[sinful nimbus]

That the ol' well of inspiration had dried up

[maiden meteor]

I guess Act 3 is about created society not ruled by gods

[uncut holly]

If you didnt know Phantom is the boss of The Mist and Lace's sister

They also move quite fast

[maiden meteor]

Most of side quests have Hornet basically go “We’re gonna need strong bugs to rebuild”

[teal shell]

she also looks cool

[craggy bison]

did we learn anything about the abyss creature in silksong?

[uncut holly]

I didnt even know bosses could sing when you try to play the Needolin to them

This changes everything

[teal shell]

nah

[maiden meteor]

Knight is the best bro

[whole holly]

not really no, but plasmium yes

[uncut holly]

So much lore!

[gritty mica]

is this before or after hollow knight?

[craggy bison]

welp too bad

[teal shell]

after

[whole holly]

we need needolin dialogue for Nyleth, khann, Palestag, karmelita

[craggy bison]

isn't plasmium just the pharloom name for lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

Really SS is often a repeat of the same themes as HK, which is pretty clearly illustrated in this conversation with Sherma

Sherma: I fear holy Pharloom is truly dying... But I still have hope, red maiden! Though kingdoms may fall, life endures still, and we bugs can build our lands anew!
Hornet: I share your hope, Sherma. Remember though that whatever is built next belongs not to the past, but to you. Your instincts are strong. Let it be those that guide you, rather than any reverence toward a kingdom's corpse.

[uncut holly]

Plasmium is Lifeblood in Pharloom

[maiden meteor]

I think we also got a bit lore on how exactly ancient civilization worshipped void

[teal shell]

what if this is a dark souls situation and we just got to wait for 3 to have a proper story

[uncut holly]

I wonder if it works in Memories I dont know I have to try

[maiden meteor]

which is, ultimately they wanted to be consumed by void or smth

[whole holly]

i would be thankful

[sinful nimbus]

I think most games about exploring a dead/dying kingdom while dismantling a fundamentally broken system are bound to end up as a repeat of HK's themes

[uncut holly]

Would have to get there though to see again, Silksong is long

Theres no ability to refight bosses

[teal shell]

gameplay a large group people dont like, heavily involved memories as a story factor, ties to the abyss/void and alot of retreading previous lore in a different font, maybe silksong is dark souls 2

[maiden meteor]

I wonder if shade cloak bug used to be alive

it has thoughts

[whole holly]

i fully thought pharloom would be thriving and blooming society as we navigated though it

[obsidian quail]

okay and what was the message with GMS and her daughters thing, what were they trying to convey with her?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm unsure

[teal shell]

i know its the constant comparison but hk does have alot of dark souls story parallels😭

[sinful nimbus]

There is a parallel with Herrah and GMS both desperately wanting a daughter but being unable to conceive them normally

Which parallels Hornet and Lace by extension

[slate rapids]

So I guess Sharpe is DLC?
Wasnt he a backer character

[teal shell]

what

am i dumb or who

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[teal shell]

okay im dumb thats chill

[slate rapids]

Steel guy from promotional art

[maiden meteor]

I wonder why exactly GMS can’t have proper children

I guess being manifestation of Silk does that to you

[somber temple]

how do i get to || tormented trobbio || im in act 3

[sinful nimbus]

Bloodborne type deal

[sinful nimbus]

Quest in songclave

But this is also #sk-lore

[teal shell]

pale king is just gwyn but not evil thats wild

[rigid vale]

I’m confused about the green prince story, did hornet just chased him down and killed him

[uncut holly]

Phantom Needolin Dialogue so far: "Discarded" "Forgotten" "Claws Quivering" "Silk Stretched Thin"

[blissful harbor]

ngl i think this was the original intent
but things changed over 6 years

[maiden meteor]

Honestly I don’t think PK is exactly pure even infanticide aside

both Hornet and Bardoon don’t seem to be exactly of high opinion about his kind

[teal shell]

idk i think branding humanity with the darksign, locking them out and pretty much leaving them for dead while treating ur kids like shit is pretty bad

pale king is gwyn but not evil and if he didnt cause everything himself lmao

[edgy barn]

Maybe there aren't any other higher beings nearby and she thinks mating with a common bug would be beneath her?

[uncut holly]

New Phantom Needolin Quotes: "Shell Stiffened." "FREE ME!" (These are hard to get)

[sinful nimbus]

Bardoon says nothing negative about PK, what Hornet says about PK is wrong

[teal shell]

gwyn forced gwyndolin to be something theyre not, disowned his first son bc he said dragon not bad actually and had another daughter pretty much used for her looks, idk i think gwyns a worse dad too

pale king was just kinda fucked

“ murdering” all the vessels isnt exactly great but i mean i dont know if there was any other option😭

[obsidian quail]

Bardoon is his main glazer what do u mean

[kindred monolith]

where/when does Hornet talk about PK?

[obsidian quail]

it’s the exact opposite

[maiden meteor]

Oh wait I have mistaken with Mr Mushroom quote

[teal shell]

shoutout mr mushroom

[maiden meteor]

"Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall,"

[teal shell]

mr mushroom always got my back

[potent patio]

Is lace dead after lace two?

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong, wingsmould journal entry comes to mind

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't seem all that questionable

They are dragons that inherently want to rule bugs

[teal shell]

pale king just wanted a society

not like he ate the bugs or something

[maiden meteor]

She also says something along the lines of pale beings naturally wanting to control

[teal shell]

i dont think in any way was the pale king evil

[uncut holly]

Full Phantom Needolin Dialogue: "Forgotten" "Discarded" "Silk Stretched Thin" "Shell Stiffened" "Claws Quivering" "FREE ME!" "Free me from this fading fate!"

[lean temple]

Pharloom is hell compared to Hallownest

[teal shell]

i think the pale king made major major mistakes, but it is in their nature to “control” lesser bugs, it also benefits said lesser bugs by giving them some form of sentience

[sinful nimbus]

Wanting to control kingdoms isn't that bad if the kingdoms are well run

[teal shell]

hallownest seems extremely well ran until the infection

[lean temple]

Which PK did do

All the systems he set in place still work

[teal shell]

stag system, sewage systems and so on

[lean temple]

And he didn't fuck over areas with extreme pollution

[maiden meteor]

Queen was the real asshole

[lean temple]

He built with the environment in mind

[teal shell]

i think the only failure of the kingdom i can think of maybe was the failed tram station?

[sinful nimbus]

I remember when #hk-lore hated white lady for no reason

[maiden meteor]

Can’t have waste problems if you dump everything into void

[sinful nimbus]

Good times

[graceful wigeon]

As an aside... is there Needolin dialogue for Silk?

[lean temple]

Unwise to build in Deepnest anyway yeah

[teal shell]

woman innit

probably the reason for it

[maiden meteor]

Queen’s Garden was also forcefully taken from mosskin

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[teal shell]

they out here treating white lady like nashandra 💔💔💔

[lean temple]

They did also build a dock for the Mosskin at the lake

[teal shell]

i think there would be alot of evidence of that because the mosskin had soldiers

mosskin had shooters on god

[maiden meteor]

"Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead. It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream."

[lean temple]

Whole lore tablet talks about it

[teal shell]

oh im dumb then

[sinful nimbus]

This does not imply a forceful annexation

[teal shell]

rest in piss me💔 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

"We used to own this place now a new guy lives in our abandoned land and she seems chill but practice stranger danger"

[teal shell]

that says caverns ahead, nothing about that implies pk took their specific land

[whole holly]

it implies White Lady being illegal immigrant to Unn's land

[lean temple]

Why did the Mosskin give up a huge portion of their land?

[graceful wigeon]

My take was always that Mosskin & Unn had cordial relations with Hallownest. With Pale King encouraging pilgrims to take a detour to check their territory out on their way to Hallownest. Like "I AM THE ONE GOD AND YOU'RE ON THE WAY TO YOUR ONE AND ONLY STOP TO CIVILIZATION... but totally check out my conveniently divine-esque friend's kingdom over there. She and her kingdom are cool too."

[whole holly]

i love Unn so much, i know she only gives charm and doesn't talk to us but she is epic

[sinful nimbus]

Unn had been weakening and it seems Mosskin just eventually lost control over QG and FC

[teal shell]

unn got aura

[lean temple]

So WL just set up shop without asking permission?

[teal shell]

the mosskin do have an army i feel like they wouldve fought off pk in some way and probably wouldve left some battleground

[sinful nimbus]

If they controlled the land by the time it was taken over they probably would've jumped the rich bugs occupying it

[sinful nimbus]

Sure its not like it was being used

[teal shell]

the mosskin arent powerless

[whole holly]

it was, by mosskin

[sinful nimbus]

Its about as ethical as planting flowers in an abandoned building

[maiden meteor]

It seems PK had some sorta agreement with mosskin about pilgrim’s road but if you strayed too far you’d end up outside of King’s authority

[lean temple]

So they retreated back to Unn and left it uninhabited

[sinful nimbus]

yes

[whole holly]

proof?

[maiden meteor]

isn’t there mosskin chapel right near Gardens

[sinful nimbus]

"Though once our lands"

[lean temple]

And?

[sinful nimbus]

It wasn't theirs

[teal shell]

it does look like they left the land

[whole holly]

that doesn't imply actively retreating to unn and giving up Queen's Gardens

[sinful nimbus]

"Even though it used to be our lands now someone else is there"

[teal shell]

and not exactly by force but i could be missing something

[sinful nimbus]

It sure implies it wasn't their land anymore so idk what else could've happened

[lean temple]

Yeah but that doesn't rule out that they got kicked out

[maiden meteor]

it doesn’t imply willing passing of land at all

[potent patio]

Is lace dead by the end of the game?

[lean temple]

Or forced to retreat

[empty sierra]

which ending

[maiden meteor]

There might not been any active fighting by they might as well been driven away by Queen basically squatting their land

[sinful nimbus]

If they considered it stolen by WL they would not consider her "benevolent"

[potent patio]

1

Act 2 ending

[lean temple]

Though it appears benevolent, it does not share our dream

[maiden meteor]

it “may” appear benevolent

[empty sierra]

nop

[lean temple]

She looks harmless

Doesn't mean she is

[potent patio]

Phew

[sinful nimbus]

It would not appear benevolent if she kicked em out forcefully