sk-lore

[viscid ridge]

Not the coral area, cause it already exists. Its just been dead for a long time, and i think thats tragically beautiful

[modest coyote]

weavers could easily be considered "common" in hallownest cause theyre not pale beings

[whole pier]

We know there are part weavers in world

Isin't Hornet called quater weaver?

[spark valve]

Well we know Herrah is a full weaver

[spark valve]

She’s called half weaver

[dapper willow]

Its really interesting how many paths there are to finding the doctor fly through npc dialouge
Team cherry really wanted to make soure you knew a way to cure your curse

[modest coyote]

herrah is either full or half

[amber bridge]

still she was a common bug, it was moreso she somewhat have gained this royalty through the former king of deepnest who was of real royalty afaik

[spark valve]

Herrah is full

[whole pier]

Wait no i missremembered, Hornet is Half Weaver

[left dune]

Idk if Hornet is ever called quarter weaver but some of the weavers are called like weaver in eight part or weaver in quarter part

[wary plover]

Like what? LIKE what are you calling her ugly, because she's just matriarchal in nature

[white panther]

at most on HK Herrah is said to be a normal beast, even as a queen. This could be something the weavers were secretly hiding from the rest of the kingdom to not call for Pharloom attention for example.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah a coral commandment says Hornet is half weaver

[fair zealot]

silly question, what was in all the bags and stuff that were in hornet's cage in the intro

[quartz flicker]

???? no one said ugly

[whole pier]

No i missremembered, half weaver, so Herra has to be a weaver.

[white panther]

So maybe it was just misinformation to hide their nature

[queen patrol]

personally i like the vibes more of herrah being a normal mortal spider because it contrasts better with the pale king, but i also don't think herrah being a full weaver hurts the story much

[severe siren]

Herrah being a weaver sure is interesting

[left dune]

yes Herrah is a weaver

[viscid ridge]

Hornet is told to be half weaver by a relic we find

[modest coyote]

who says weavers arent mortal?

i mean we know they explicitly "arent divine"

[whole pier]

Food and drink for travel for her?

[amber bridge]

herrah looks far too different to be a weaver. even widow at least has the characteristics of a weaver, so I retain my earlier previous theory that herrah herself could be from an anchestry mix of spider (or any bug race) and weaver

[wary plover]

Are there any other characters like zote, gms, sherma etc

[fair zealot]

that does make sense actually

[severe siren]

Herrah hails from a tradition of creating half-breeds and she is a half-breed herself trust

[modest coyote]

what is this combination of chars lol

[severe siren]

This answers all the lore surely

[wary plover]

What do you mean

[white panther]

top3 coolest chars ever?

[modest coyote]

we have zote and sherma, both npc, thne gms?

[spark valve]

Hornet is stated to be half weaver so that doesn’t make that much sense

[mild girder]

we owe pale king an apology

[viscid ridge]

My assumption is that not all weavers look like that, they can look different, but still have the title of weaver, and its also confirmed in game that Hornet is Half weaver, which means Herrah was a full weaver

[modest coyote]

ONG

[modest coyote]

also grandmothersilk is a good pun

[fair zealot]

unless pale king was also part weaver /j

[queen patrol]

by mortal i just meant with a more standard ancestry. weavers might not be divine, but they still have a unique origin

[severe siren]

The lore doesnt make sense anyway this chat is useless 🥱

[dapper willow]

ANOTHER PALE KING W

[wary plover]

I just mean characters that are oddly determined over something

[mild girder]

i can't with these anti homeless benches and a prerecorded message that says you must work harder

[modest coyote]

i mean every being has given sentience from a higher being

[whole pier]

Ok one thing, just to make sure i am not missunderstanding, when pale king and herra made hornet, did pale knight still use a bit of void to make her?

[modest coyote]

the forest creatures from umm etc..

[modest coyote]

0 void

[dapper willow]

Untrue

[edgy barn]

No, Hornet is not Void

[severe siren]

False

[spark valve]

No there was no void involved. Hornet is the biological child of pk and Herrah

[dapper willow]

No

[willow flicker]

Probably not

[viscid ridge]

We also get told that The Pale king is a white wyrm, which means there are actually other types of wyrms out there and that Pale King is not the baseline

[fair zealot]

character motivation is a device used in storytelling that

[modest coyote]

literally what case do we have of a sentient being with no higher being influence

[fair zealot]

the higher influence?

[whole pier]

Huh. i missremembered lore then, i thought pale knight was unable to have natural children without supplementing

[edgy barn]

The Hive?

[dapper willow]

Mantis tribe
The mask maker
The many wanderers of the wastes
Nameless Village

[spark valve]

Mantes bees deepnest spiders stilkin slab flies citadel caste

[modest coyote]

isnt vespa a somewhat higher being

[spark valve]

No

[modest coyote]

nameless village has nothing but brainless cockroaches

[edgy barn]

No?

[modest coyote]

also i wouldnt call the bees exactly sentient

theyre a hivemind

[edgy barn]

Vespa herself is sentient

[modest coyote]

mantis tribe is a good point tho

[dapper willow]

I doubt those cockroaches built the whole village by themselves

[spark valve]

Oh and craws, ants

[modest coyote]

shes clearly not a regular bug

[quartz flicker]

The Mantis Tribe is entirely free in canon. The Skarr seem similar in a lot of ways to them.

[dapper willow]

The coral people
Verdania people

[severe siren]

And what about every foreigner to Hallownest that arrived for their own reasons

[white panther]

Vespa is just extremely cool, way more thn any HB

[fair zealot]

the thing is, if all sentient beings are from the influence of a higher being, then what higher being has influenced the sentience of the higher beings? is there a highest being? is it durandas all the way down?

[viscid ridge]

A whole lot, we have mantases, the bees and the old kingdoms in pharloom. So the independent forming of mind isn't exclusive to higher being, but i imagine it takes a lot longer to form minds without a hb

[modest coyote]

verdania has a higher being probably

[spark valve]

It didn’t

[modest coyote]

we literally have something called "pale stag"

which hornet remarks "i wonder how powerful the real thing was"

[queen patrol]

i like the theory someone had in here earlier that it's community that makes bugs sentient, and the draw of higher beings just makes bugs more likely to congregate around them . more a side effect than an active decision

[viscid ridge]

They captured a pale being, but i honestly dont know how powerful that thing could be, or what the lore implications of it are

[modest coyote]

also again- i dont know how sentient verdania creatures were

[edgy barn]

Why not

[modest coyote]

well shes the only bee like that

[dapper willow]

They literally built houses and you talk to one

[modest coyote]

all the other ones are hivemind

[fair zealot]

like what

[viscid ridge]

Hive knight

[spark valve]

That’s like the opposite of the takeaway from that journal entry

[dapper willow]

Also I doubt the stag is a higher being
Its more likely just a powerful bug
Which is pretty common in hk world

[severe siren]

Thats just a myth in verdanian culture that actually comes to reality since we’re in Green Prince’s memories

“Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?”

[modest coyote]

i guess

the name "pale" is suggestive tho

they couldve chosen any other name

[willow flicker]

It probably just ate some white fruits with soul/silk/whatever and become white

[queen patrol]

the hive is in the early stages of being infected, you can't accurately judge the intelligence of anything under the radiance's control

[modest coyote]

canonically they resist infection to an extent because they already had a hive mind

[fair zealot]

possibly named by the bugs who felled it, to try to make it sound more impressive?

[dapper willow]

Also the moths had a hivemind too before they chose to go with the pale king
So hiveminds do count as intelligence
The mushrooms had a hivemind too

[plush sequoia]

Hi guys, is there a general explanation for silksong lore? Like written down or a youtube vid

[white panther]

maaaybe memories are not 100% reliable

[modest coyote]

true

[plush sequoia]

For the base ending at least

[modest coyote]

ok fair enough youve all given ur points well i relent

[viscid ridge]

Im of the opinion that the pale stag created verdania (like how unn created greenpath), and the green bugs killed it and took over verdania. But the pale stag does not seem to be on the same level as Unn or The Pale being for example, so its a very strange creature

[lean temple]

Mask Makers seem to be a special thing

[modest coyote]

BUT my underlying point- that weavers are not really unique in being given sentience by a higher being

i think this is still true

why would the bugs of hallownest consider weavers special?

[severe siren]

This is a cool headcanon i might steal it

[amber bridge]

Weavers are generally artificial beings created to all look the same and we see this even with Widow who is skinned; every weaver is characterized by their super skinny black body with the weird hip formation, likewise on the shoulder. Herrah on the other hand, while she checks the box for the six eyes (even then it's scarce as other non-weaver bugs can have six eyes as well), looks far too thick and fleshy like an actual bug to be 100% of weaver. I still believe it's more that Herrah herself had blood of weaver in her veins and that of another race (given she is labelled as a common beast from the lore tablet). Even her body has the many arms which is unfitting of a Weaver, more aligning with actual beasts of Deepnest (their characteristically shaped masks does little to counter this). Imo, the whole thing feels like a massive retcon (like many other examples in the new game) and I am not quite fond where the new lore is heading. Still, I concur Herrah must've regardless at least have Weaver DNA and that of another bug/beast in her. Otherwise the lores of both games only clash with another.

[modest coyote]

when all of them got intellect from a higher being themselves

[viscid ridge]

Yeah we get confirmation that mask makers have the sight, same as with the pale king

[modest coyote]

it makes perfect sense for them to considr a weaver (if herrah is one) "'common""

[amber bridge]

The whole thing is a bit of a mess so I need to revisit the whole Deepnest lore back to back.

[severe siren]

Try that and it only makes things worse lmao

Anyway Team Cherry answer the damn trilobite

[amber bridge]

Team Cherry, why

[severe siren]

What is that thing for

[modest coyote]

the weavers obviously are unique and special- but in hallownest why would the people view thme as special

[spark valve]

Little weavers don’t exist little weavers don’t exist

[white panther]

i wouldnt trust a weaver with my credit card, they are weirdly untrustworthy

[modest coyote]

are they unique for being given intelligence by a higher being? no

so i dont see any lore reason wrong with herrah being called "common" but being a weaver

[viscid ridge]

Cause they seem to be the only creatures who can make silk

[left dune]

I dont think they were viewed as that special in Hallownest except for Herrah being in some way a weaver and the queen of deepnest so that would be why they were regarded highly

[modest coyote]

uhh silk moths?

[woven vine]

Weavers should have just ganged up on mother silk tbh. She was not that strong lol

[terse warren]

which we have seen where, in HK?

[fair zealot]

(also from my interpretation i think the radiance was created by the moths rather than the other way around)

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, and where is there a silk moth mentioned in game 🤣

[modest coyote]

truth tornado

[severe siren]

First sinner could have owned gms tbh

[terse warren]

canonically, only Weavers and GMS can make Silk

[modest coyote]

they literally did

[white panther]

They arent either, see how easy Widow and FS are 💀

[lean temple]

That directly clashes with what Seer herself says

[severe siren]

They should do it again

[modest coyote]

they put her in a coma and ran the place for. a bit

[edgy barn]

Speaking of First Sinner

[vocal kraken]

are we all cracking gm silk

[plush sequoia]

Indeed

[modest coyote]

its a spider

[fair zealot]

then my interpretation is wrong lol oops

[viscid ridge]

Brotha

[edgy barn]

She and Pure Vessel share a spell

[modest coyote]

makes sense tbh

[edgy barn]

What's with that?

[modest coyote]

the weavers have some relation to thk, the pop bind is the weaver bind

[fair zealot]

seals of binding are made from silk i think?

[woven vine]

I think other non-weavers spiders can spin silk, but it won't be imbued with Soul.

[modest coyote]

i would not be surprised if the weavers werent in some way contracted with pure vessel

[lean temple]

Similar effect but not the same spell. It is speculated by Hornet that FS was the one to pioneer her runes

[modest coyote]

well i tihnk theres a decent chance thk lurnt some weaver magic

[vocal kraken]

yo is the little knight that appears in the true ending thk or is it little ghost because it looks like thk

[lean temple]

It's Ghost

[viscid ridge]

Silk seems to be way more versatile than soul. Like specific runes can be created using silk to created different effects and spells, while soul in its pure form only seems to be able to create projectiles and heal( but im not sure if normal bugs can do that, cause we only see the knight doing that).

[fair zealot]

first sinner would have existed before pure vessel though, right? since she's a first generation weaver

[vocal kraken]

dude what the fuck

[lean temple]

Ofc

[fair zealot]

actual low% run fr

[viscid ridge]

Bro did you even play the game what is this 💀

[vocal kraken]

dawg i JUST did the true ending

[queen patrol]

imo there's probably a difference between soul-infused silk (GMS derived, magically powerful) and like. silk thread. the latter is probably what's used in textile making/webs/etc and can be made by any random spider (or silkworm if they're ever confirmed to exist)

[vocal kraken]

bro

[dapper willow]

How in the world did you beat lace with such a low gear

[lean temple]

Soul can be made into spells by capable bugs, but it seems the Weavers just had a natural mastery over the powers of Silk

[dapper willow]

She is a pain in tge ass

[vocal kraken]

i use reaer crest

[viscid ridge]

I didnt even know true ending could allow a completion that low, but good job i still havent beaten lost lace

[fair zealot]

yeah I'd just call it spiderweb or something rather than silk in that case lol

[vocal kraken]

guys how do i get 100% like genuinely what did i not explore

[lean temple]

Getting all tools alone is like 57%

[left dune]

clearly you didn't explore half of the map

[amber bridge]

I assume you haven't heard of Act 3? Also this is better for #sk-help

[severe siren]

For starters each tool counts as 1% and there are 57 total

[vocal kraken]

bro i just did true ending

[queen patrol]

silk might be more powerful because it has something physical about it to anchor the soul magic, maybe?

[fair zealot]

can't get farsight without act 3

[left dune]

this dude is in act 3 cuz he has the %

[viscid ridge]

He just did true ending 🤣

[severe siren]

No this is act 3 lmao

[amber bridge]

Ah alr, yall dont have to gang up me now lol

[vocal kraken]

guys help me pls

[dapper willow]

Go to silksong help

[severe siren]

We dont do it intentionally or aggressively

[lean temple]

#sk-help

[amber bridge]

of course not, never interpret it that way, just that one or two answers alr enough to get the point across

[vocal kraken]

no one is replying in ss help bro

[queen patrol]

raw soul has more potential, but silk has staying power and the physicality to shape it with far more precision

[modest coyote]

is this the first bonafied low percent run lol

[dapper willow]

Patience is a virtue I suppose

[fair zealot]

new question so like, the plasmium in pharloom pretty clearly behaves like an invasive species, which to me implies that lifeblood in hallownest must have had a natural predator of some kind since it doesn't run so rampant? thoughts?

[vocal kraken]

what bonafied

[amber bridge]

All tools, crests, quests, journal (tho not sure if that counts so dont take my words for it), areas etc.

[vocal kraken]

the knight 💀

[queen patrol]

i bet the infection staved it off

[lean temple]

It's likely the PK kept it suppressed

[modest coyote]

i mean it doesnt help u have a madman injecting it everywhere

[vocal kraken]

i dont even have wanderers crest

[dapper willow]

Pale king banned lifeblood

[fair zealot]

difficult questions are harder to answer, and "where did i miss 50% of the whole game" is a pretty difficult question lol, try asking about specific things you're missing

[vocal kraken]

😭

holy fuck bro i thought i atleast had like 86%

[dapper willow]

Bro inhales lifeblood
Of course he ends up as a horrible mutant

[austere flare]

Can somebody explain the cut scene after first sinner with the little weavers I still dont get it

[edgy barn]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Completion_(Silksong)

[amber bridge]

all of these little things add to the percentage so if you're dead set on 100% achievement, go collect as everything you can. fleas, miningames, items like the cylinders could also attribute to it.

[fair zealot]

however the implication is that lifeblood existed during the time of the void civilization, right? so infection, pale king, knight, don't really make sense to explain its relative scarcity in hallownest? maybe? idk

[vocal kraken]

theres no way silksong is THIS content rich for me to get 50%

[severe siren]

You’ve no idea how badly i want boss refights

[scenic vigil]

I can't believe they made the whole hornet "child of 3 queens" canon again. I just went trough the cutscene and I am so happy since the whole thing sounded so cool to not be canon anymore.

[severe siren]

Especially with the build expression in this game

[fair zealot]

this is why it took so long

[modest coyote]

hes basicaly a heroin addict

[queen patrol]

crazy how hornet had four entire parental figures and lost all of them

[fluid shadow]

Lmk if my little theory is good or not. So I think that the pale oil is the pale kings "bodily fluids" when he was together with herrah the beast, and grandmother silk was jealous and stole it. So is it good or not?

[dapper willow]

Pretty much

[modest coyote]

gms took lil sdpiders and gave them intelligence

[severe siren]

https://tenor.com/view/doug-walker-fnaf-turning-around-turning-doug-turning-around-gif-23411544

[scenic vigil]

The weavers are evolved version of the little spiders and were made by GM Silk is my guess

[solid elk]

Are the void spewing beasts in the Abyss immune to the dangers of the Void? Or just resistant?

[modest coyote]

they are void

well theyre basically shells of things which used to live down there

[whole pier]

My theory is that is flourishes in wastes, that's why it gets boxed in by nature or working environments

[solid elk]

They are void entities?

[modest coyote]

their corpses probably animatted by void

[vocal kraken]

guys what dlcs are we gonna get

[fair zealot]

one was mortal, the other three deranged

[austere flare]

And their divinity was the lie? Idk it just seems like that not a crazy big revolution as it seems like bugs being given intelligence by higher beings is pretty normal

[amber bridge]

I see so many people (myself included) be happy they never abandoned this part of scrapped cut content. I'm glad they didn't cuz I wanted Vespa appearance and got it lol. I had a hunch they'd bring the Hive back the moment I refined Hornets nail and it exposes the honey-like hexagon pattern (I gasped at that part)

[modest coyote]

yeah basically

[lean temple]

Me too that was awesome to see

[austere flare]

Revelation

[severe siren]

One of them is 100% steel related because the steel assassins had a major role but are MIA

And another is hinted at via datamined lines of code

[modest coyote]

they were told they were special but really theyre not to different to most other bugs

[solid elk]

Hornet implied that the Abyss breast 'adapted' to the void in the Hunter's Notes, so it is possible for normal bugs to survive the void with enough time and evolution

[scenic vigil]

Exactly. I had the feeling that was canon again at that moment but I couldn't be sure and the cutscene just confirmed it properly.

[fair zealot]

a vespa duel in dlc would actually be so hype

[scenic vigil]

Also was Sharpe even mentioned anywhere in the game?

[severe siren]

He was even removed from the press kit

[scenic vigil]

Oh wow

[modest coyote]

maybe but i feel anything which spits void is probably somewhat controlled by it

[severe siren]

They are definitely gonna bring em back in a big update

He’s a backer character after all so he kinda has to return

[lean temple]

The Weavers being divine was a lie, and that GMS herself is kinda selfish.

[queen patrol]

i'd kill for a hornet's memories dlc that gets further into her relationship with her mothers. and dad i guess

[scenic vigil]

Vespa fight, Sharpe fight, coral area exploration would be cool. There is a bunch of stuff for DLC

[modest coyote]

i mean like theres lifeblood beings in womrways right?

[vocal kraken]

guys is this a record

[modest coyote]

theyre not physically made of lifeblood

[severe siren]

Bring back barnacle area TC

[modest coyote]

but theyre still controlled by lifeblood to an extent right?

[lean temple]

It's bile from a creature. The item description man

[solid elk]

It seems like those beasts ate alive, like active reproducing creatures with life stages of juvenile and adult, so it's still life that finds a way

[severe siren]

Record for what, longest playthrough?

[left dune]

dude now you are just annoying

[modest coyote]

i think the void creatures are a bit like the lifeblood creatures

[fair zealot]

not necessarily? could've just been something dialed back like the coral area, or cut like the forest of bones in hollow knight (though i suppose we did eventually get that in the "hornet dlc" lol)

[vocal kraken]

🥺

[severe siren]

In here it’s different
Sharpe is a backer character

[left dune]

stop spamming that in every chat

[whole pier]

Def not longest, I am on my 80th hour

[solid elk]

The worms look healthier with all the Lifeblood, tbh. They're practically glowing

[vocal kraken]

🥺

[modest coyote]

like radiation

[fair zealot]

yeah i started writing that before you said that lol

[spark valve]

Barnacle area is fucking dead

[solid elk]

Lifeblood creatures actively have their health improved, so that isn't so bad

[severe siren]

I refuse to believe it

[lean temple]

There are many corpses and the living ones are mutated. Definitely not "healthy"

[sinful nimbus]

TC should just ditch the bug gimmick and start making aquatic games atp

[left dune]

why did they kill lomm

[whole pier]

Alive, yes, healthy? Nooo

[fluid shadow]

oh i didn't realise

[solid elk]

Radiation kills you slowly and has no benefits. Lifeblood literally is beneficial to their growth and health

[modest coyote]

lomm is freer

[queen patrol]

hollow knight: crabsong

[solid elk]

The corpses were there before, were they not?

[lean temple]

Lifeblood enslaves you and starts growing out of you. It's a parasite

[dapper willow]

Bring back the barnacle area

[left dune]

Wait until you find out about Return To Booty Grotto

[fair zealot]

enriched uranium has lots of calories tho

[lean temple]

The Knight was just immune to its effects

[sinful nimbus]

[vocal kraken]

where do i find seth after fighting him

[solid elk]

It's not a Parasite when it is mutually beneficial. The Alchemist literally only has good effects from it. He says so himself.

[modest coyote]

cause hes void

[sinful nimbus]

greymoor

[dapper willow]

Johni is not a horrible lifeblood mutant like the alchemist

[modest coyote]

his assistant becomes a deranged monster

[queen patrol]

joni is also dead

[lean temple]

It's taking over his mind. Do you see what he looks like? Bro is gone

[vocal kraken]

where

[solid elk]

It still kills you. Lifeblood does not kill anyone that we have seen

[sinful nimbus]

where shakra was

[dapper willow]

Everyone dies

[modest coyote]

pale king banned ts for a reason

[fair zealot]

killed zylotl

[modest coyote]

i fw pale king he knows what hes doing

if pale king banned it, it was for a good reason

[fair zealot]

and y'know. the tons of worm corpses visible in the infected wormways

[severe siren]

Team Cherry please 🙏

[foggy fractal]

hi i am tc, no it is cut forever

[queen patrol]

i feel like the entirety of the first game was a long exercise in demonstrating the pale king did Not in fact know what he was doing

[fair zealot]

barfbug lives on tho so I'm happy

[modest coyote]

literally what did he do wrong

[solid elk]

Don't judge him by looks. He is openly admitting how much better he is for it. There is sheer benefit to lifeblood, even if it is addictive

[lean temple]

He's a much better ruler and diety than either GMS or the Choir

[modest coyote]

i aint see no slaves or prison camps in hallownest

[severe siren]

In the silksong wingmould journal entry, even Hornet calls her father a fool

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King knew what he was doing he was just up against an impossible task

[modest coyote]

there is no fucking pale gestapo

[sinful nimbus]

Up until SS character assassinated him anyway

[lean temple]

BECAUSE IT'S TAKING OVER HIS MIND

[solid elk]

He was dead before the Lifeblood got his corpse. We see no evidence it was Lifeblood that killed him

[sinful nimbus]

Thanks Team Cherry! I love your writing

[queen patrol]

that's an extremely low bar

[severe siren]

He was mid anyway

[modest coyote]

silksong features a literal gulag

[solid elk]

We're they not there prior to Act 3?

[fair zealot]

no they were alive prior to act 3

[lean temple]

Moss Prophet also talked good about the infection and then he died

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet writing about how PK is stupid for never making kingsmoulds (He did make kingsmoulds)

[modest coyote]

silksong features a fucking slavery funnel

[lean temple]

She said it was foolish to make anything from Void

[solid elk]

You're making a vold assumption that he couldn't stop at any time if he wanted to. The fact that he doesn't want to isna good thing.

[queen patrol]

pk wasn't evil but he was single-minded and like. the living embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy

[dapper willow]

Thats not true

[modest coyote]

pale king was a clever fella

a smart fella

[dapper willow]

Also hornet hating his dad is not character assasination

[vocal kraken]

why seth memory loss

[severe siren]

Pale King shouldve just took Hallownest and pushed it somewhere else tbh

[sinful nimbus]

That is what the Wingsmould entry states

[fair zealot]

hornet wrote that pk was stupid for making wingmoulds

[modest coyote]

u beat him into a coma

[sinful nimbus]

She thinks they didn't work for some reason

[solid elk]

Fair. The worms were killed. Still, its fundamentally not that bad. Plenty of IRL drugs do the same and we still show legalize them.

[vocal kraken]

will he ever remember again

[fair zealot]

something something "only a fool thinks they can control void"

[sinful nimbus]

Wingsmoulds and Kingsmoulds work perfectly fine and she says that he's a fool for thinking they would work

[lean temple]

Where
False fly with a rune etched shell. A tortured mix of soul and void is caged within.
A crude construct of my father's fallen domain. Only a fool believes that void can be fashioned to do their bidding.

[terse warren]

"Few can summon the abyss, and amongst them none can control it" The humble Pale King:

[sinful nimbus]

Bro forgot Lord of Shades

[modest coyote]

idc pale king the goat

[fair zealot]

yeah but pale king kinda fucking died to the void

[terse warren]

implies that the wingsmoulds aren't doing PK's bidding, which they are

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[modest coyote]

PALE KING MADE TRAM SYSTEMS

[sinful nimbus]

PK dying to the void is fanon

[modest coyote]

PALE KING MADE THE TRAINS RUN ON TIME

[dapper willow]

Pretty sure hornet does not know the shade lird exists

[lean temple]

She says so because the Void is ultimately very dangerous and using it is tempting fate

[solid elk]

If Hornet were to just take the Twisted bud and shove it into GMS instead of Binding her, would the Twisted Child ending still happen, in practice?

[foggy fractal]

well at least Hornet saw reason in their choice to create the vessels I think based on her dialogue with wl in red memory right ?

[severe siren]

Stag is inferior to bellbeast

[sinful nimbus]

She does

[queen patrol]

pk meant well but he made some very incorrect assumptions about the nature of the void that led him down a path that ultimately doomed the kingdom because he didn't realize his mistake until it was far too late

[fair zealot]

he could channel the void, but not control it

[modest coyote]

PALE KING NEVER MADE A FUCKING GULAG

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet was the first one to even hypothesize that a lord of shades could exist ignoring the ancient civilization

[sinful nimbus]

Kingdom was doomed either way

The only thing he did was prevent the inevitable

[dapper willow]

Does not

[modest coyote]

pale king was a good leader

[vocal kraken]

is there anyway i can give him back his shield

[foggy fractal]

no

[terse warren]

1 assumption: that void couldn't feel emotions. And even then, there was no other solution so

[lean temple]

Maybe? But GMS might be strong enough to expel the parasite

[sinful nimbus]

Uhh... she talks to it and acknowledges its power 🥴

[ionic helm]

so what are the butterflies even? do we know?

why can they break seals?

[dapper willow]

I do not remember that ever happening

[solid elk]

Pale King active made the region what would become Hallownest civilized. However, that also implies the Mantises, Months, and Mosskin are uncivilized barbarians

[foggy fractal]

why is there no Queensmould 🤔 TC what are you trying to say...

[sinful nimbus]

The assumption that void can alter the mind like that isn't even that far fetched, Ancient Civilization also thought that

[serene belfry]

lowkey

[sinful nimbus]

Outside the black egg

[lean temple]

He literally let them keep their cultures and traditions

[fair zealot]

something something history is written by the victors

[terse warren]

yeah he was that was vastly implied

[serene belfry]

any kingdom that would have to deal with the fucking radiance would be doomed

[sinful nimbus]

To clarify Lord of Shades refers to The Knight with Void Heart

[solid elk]

Literally most monarchs in the world are women lol

[dapper willow]

That is not the lord of shades

[prisma quail]

No?

[sinful nimbus]

This is in fact how the term is used in game

[solid elk]

The Crust King is an outlier for veing a bug Patriarch

[sinful nimbus]

You are probably thinking of the Shade Lord which is the unofficial name for Void Given Focus

[solid elk]

Yes

[green yoke]

In the HOLLOW KNIGHT world I think they mean

[lean temple]

The King was the backbone of all Hallownest ofc they'd be named after himself

[terse warren]

i suppose, yeah, but at that point it means that PK fumbled by having a loving relationship with his kid (which is correct)

[prisma quail]

I was just about to ask

[sinful nimbus]

(Who are the same entity one is just a more specific form)

[sinful nimbus]

That was irrelevant

[prisma quail]

Do we learn more about the outside world/wasteland than Hollow Knight

[sinful nimbus]

THK was impure either way

[terse warren]

they were all impure

[queen patrol]

it's pretty true to real life, with most bugs irl the females are the larger and more dominant ones

[fair zealot]

once you have void heart the statue/corpse you get shade cloak from says "lord of shades" in its dreamnail dialogue

[foggy fractal]

not saying that the kingsmould's name isn't valid
just that there isn't antoher construct named queensmould....
#noticing

[solid elk]

Ants, Bees, Weavers, Mantises, Unn, Nyleth, Etc.

[terse warren]

Pale King, and whoever Herrah's husband was

[sinful nimbus]

Seems a wee bit too woke for my tastes

[fair zealot]

because the white lady wasn't a mad scientist

[severe siren]

I genuinely had no idea about this ngl

[terse warren]

mantises aren't a matriarchy, the only man of the 4 rulers they had just decided to leave

[solid elk]

Outliers, as therr are like double that amount of Matriarchs across both games

[dapper willow]

Eh fair enough but its also pedantic

[severe siren]

Pharloom does have a lot of matriarchy or at least a theming of powerful mothers/women

[terse warren]

if it's 2 out of 6 it's not outliers lol

[lean temple]

WL just wasn't as important as him. We don't know really know her role in governance but it seems PK did a lot of heavy lifting.

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers only are ruled by queens because all weavers are women

[solid elk]

I mean female as head of the group, not literally Women above men.

Of which, we have more of that than male leaders

[solid elk]

Yes it is. Literally a small minority

[terse warren]

that's not what i said?

[amber bridge]

Or it could be that the King MOULDED these things, like obv as the PK created them, not from White Lady or smt?

[terse warren]

that's literally almost half

[foggy fractal]

"...Void... Power... Without unity..."

This dialogue changes when Void Heart is acquired, after which it states:

"...Lord of Shades..."

[severe siren]

Thats cool af

[amber bridge]

Like its kinda in the name Kingsmould aka Kings Mould aka Kings creation that he moulded... gen don't see a big conspiracy going on there lol

[terse warren]

and again, mantises had a man and 3 women as leaders. remember that they're all siblings, so it's just a bloodline thing

[solid elk]

If the sole male lord leaves, and only women are leading, it still counts.

Like if Herrah's King dies and she is a single Queen, she is the female led monarch and that still counts

[solid elk]

Still counts

[fair zealot]

why is green prince green prince? did verdania have a higher generation monarch or whatever? was his partner the king?

[solid elk]

True

[lean temple]

Both princes iirc

[serene belfry]

they ruled together lorian and lothric style

[terse warren]

#sk-lore message yeah because the men died

[foggy fractal]

the ever humble guy who gives shade cloak:

[serene belfry]

except lovers instead of brothers

[dapper willow]

They just use prince instead of king for the aesthetica

[queen patrol]

some monarchies have the highest title be prince/princess

[severe siren]

Chozo…

[serene belfry]

absolute goat

[fair zealot]

okay but why prince

[queen patrol]

principalities

[solid elk]

Still counts

[sinful nimbus]

we don't see any ancient civ corpses in silksong do we

That's a bit peculiar

[terse warren]

no? not if we're talking culture it doesnt

[solid elk]

Yes it does

[fair zealot]

also that reminds me does that one lore tablet call into question the "instead of" in this statement

[lean temple]

We see many massive corpses but I don't think they are Ancients

[serene belfry]

if we do it would be hard to tell but theres fossils of various thing everywhere

[vocal kraken]

seth got memory loss the first time he got beaten wow

[foggy fractal]

maybe the ac only existed in hallownest ?

[serene belfry]

but if its in pharloom i dont think it would be ancient

[serene belfry]

wdym

[sinful nimbus]

We see their tablets in SS

[terse warren]

if the women are the only ones in power because the men died, it doesn't mean that the monarchs are usually women

[foggy fractal]

oh right

[solid elk]

Seth is such a sad character. He has literally nothing left

[sinful nimbus]

Also apparently there's an arcane egg in the game

[lean temple]

Green Prince talks about their love. This isn't really in question

[terse warren]

there is

[lean temple]

Yep

[severe siren]

Until you send him to fleatopia

[lean temple]

Maybe two idk

[sinful nimbus]

you can WHAT

[vocal kraken]

i mean team cherry most likely gave him memory loss because after irl seth died his memory loss most likely means a new life

[foggy fractal]

dudes gonna play mini games for the rest of his life lmao

[fair zealot]

i don't remember the lore tablet very well but it seemed to imply the two had very similar origins

[solid elk]

Actually, does anybody get a happy ending?

We know Grubfather and the Fleas do.

[vocal kraken]

lace

[severe siren]

Yep, there are even harder scores to beat and he gives you a memento if you beat them

[lean temple]

They were born at the same time and destined to rule together iirc

[foggy fractal]

yeah after you beat him you can talk to him in greymoor, then shellwood, then compete against his score in flea festival to get a momento

[dapper willow]

Everyone gets a happy ending who doesnt die

[sinful nimbus]

My goat

[edgy relic]

Just got into act 3 a while ago. Are... are the snails supposed to be descendants of Ancient Civ? Is that why they're obsessed with void? It would also explain the soul totems in HK

[rapid hare]

What’s the ladybug character i keep seeing in videos I got 100% and never bumped into them

[serene belfry]

me neither honestly

[solid elk]

Idk if that counts, considering that she hates living as a silk being

[lean temple]

The guy in the throwing pin minigame?

[runic musk]

Below the entrance to Hunters March in Marrow.

[vocal kraken]

bell beast

[serene belfry]

not sure but since og hk snail shamans have been obsessed with soul and void and creating various spells based off them

[severe siren]

Yeah, just one

Although i forgot what description it has after giving it to Scrounge

[whole holly]

they are in marrow, they are for training and throwing pins

[runic musk]

Its not there in Act 3 iirc

[fair zealot]

lace probably dies after sister of the void tbh, journal says she likely requires lots of silk to sustain, and the source of that lots of silk kinda died

[serene belfry]

one sec

[amber bridge]

afaik they occupy the jail area where you first meet w that one npc who is stuck inside and needs u to break him out of it

[uncut holly]

So my understanding of Green Prince lore. There was once a tribe in Verdania, two families once hunted a mythical creature known as the Pale Stag who in journal entries Hornet questions if it even really did exist, in killing this Pale Stag the two Green Prince families became immortal and destined to rule marrying the other family that hunted the stag with them. Them killing this stag is what made them immortal and gave them their status to rule among their other Green Dancer kin.

[solid elk]

I promise you that Green Prince did not get a happy ending. Man is depressed. Same with Trobbio entering his edgy emo phase

[rapid hare]

I believe it’s gone after act 3, jail looks busted now

[terse warren]

meet him in greymoor, then in shellwood, and then he's in fleatopia

[hasty idol]

Sooo, i have couple of questions. If i understood citadel lore, GMS elevated some weavers from small bug, after that due to something grew resentful, imprisoned some, and after that others imprisoned and kept her in sleep by song and pilgrimage started from this.
Question 1- why after binding her weavers didn't liberate some imprisoned like First Sinner?
Question 2- When GMS regained her conciousness why pilgrimage kept intact, if it served 0 purpose now?

[solid elk]

This is the correct answer

[whole holly]

oh

[terse warren]

i think you might be taking trobbio too seriously

[solid elk]

They disappear in Act 3, right?

[dapper willow]

Green prince dies if you do his dream

And trobio seems to be prone to mood swings
He will be fine after the void goes away

[serene belfry]

yea hes a literal meme lord

[amber bridge]

frankly no, I'd even go as far to say that even death may be a better suited ending for many characters. It's the Hollow Knight game after all... No such thing as happiness for anyone lol

[uncut holly]

Then one prince tried to make peace with the Citadel of Song when the Weavers where in power, and the Weavers responded by killing him and shoving him in a robot.

[runic musk]

I believe so.

[uncut holly]

Because the Weavers did nothing wrong

[fair zealot]

scrounge gets a good ending too actually

[foggy fractal]

these bosses dramatic af

[rapid hare]

What did i miss any useful lore / upgrades

[vocal kraken]

what does ts mean

[foggy fractal]

he went to shellwood

[severe siren]

Bellbeast, mr. mushroom, seth, and fayforn are the only characters that matter in Pharloom

[serene belfry]

actually more npcs then not get good rleatively happy endings in both games compared to like fucking souls for example

[queen patrol]

it's safe to assume that any character that survives the game will have at least SOME trauma to process after the fact

[uncut holly]

It means he is at a grave site in Shellwood and you should go help him

[serene belfry]

BELLBEAST MY ABSOLUTE GOAT

[vocal kraken]

hell no where is flick the fixer bro

[fair zealot]

it means he has departed to pay his respects at the graves within the great wood

[serene belfry]

AUDIBLY YELLED WHEN BRO CAME OUT OF THE GROUND AND KILLED THE BELL EATER

[uncut holly]

Flick is at the original Flea caravan spot

[severe siren]

Oh wait and that one gambling NPC

[whole holly]

who is Fayforn?

[solid elk]

Oh shit, can you miss upgrades if you start Act 3 too soon?

[uncut holly]

Faylon is the giant snow moth atop the snowy peak

[severe siren]

The giant bird-like moth who gives you double jump

[uncut holly]

Fayforn im pretty sure is what species they are

[serene belfry]

faylow

[whole holly]

oh

[rapid hare]

There’s an upgrade??

[solid elk]

The snitchbug thief is actually having the time of his life

[dapper willow]

Despite all the tragedy I think both true endings are happy endings for everyone who remained

[queen patrol]

he's the lucky exception

[solid elk]

I wish anybody in BoneBottom had that

[uncut holly]

I mean during Act 3 most of the factions are dead. The Craws remain but seemingly the ones in the Craw Court are all that is left and they want to prosecute you for doing this

[vocal kraken]

why is this bitchass thief still alive and garmond is dead

[solid elk]

The dagger game gives you more tool space, IIRC

[uncut holly]

Bellhart lived, Songclave lived, some of Bone Bottom lived

All the other factions for the most part died

[queen patrol]

crime pays

[uncut holly]

And the Fleas live

[serene belfry]

this doesnt seem to tell us much ngl but it does hint that the void DOES have inherent like sort of persona/will erasing properties

[rapid hare]

My tool space is already maxed

[serene belfry]

garmond give me siegmeyer vibes fr

ZANZIBOOOOOOOOOOOOM

[lean temple]

Karmelita dies too so the Ants are kinda screwed. You kill the fly mother in the Slab so they're on thin ice as well.

[vocal kraken]

sif and artorias

[solid elk]

The Ants are still active, right? Just not leaving the Far Fields or March.

[foggy fractal]

there are some upgrades to tools you could miss I believe
I doubt they would gate out health, spool, tool kit/space upgrades tho

[runic musk]

We have no hints at a future heir replacement for the ant colony right so yea they're kinda screwed with Karmelita gone.

[vocal kraken]

garmond and zaza literlly sif and artorias

[uncut holly]

I think the ants where already screwed, they where hunted to extinction by the Citadel of Song but they couldnt fully do it until the Haunting began. Now Karmelita is hiding from her own reanimated children

All the ants we see are all Haunted reanimated bodies, except for very few like Garr the Outcast, and the Shopkeeper ant who winds up dying.

[solid elk]

Shakra gets a happy ending, I think, since she found her master

[uncut holly]

I mean her Master was dead

[winter iris]

Strength unbeaten.

[dapper willow]

The flies seem to be more of a problem than anything

[uncut holly]

That is true

[solid elk]

Garr. Is weird af for trying to murder thr woman trying to save everyone

[dapper willow]

They are bread to be jailers

[uncut holly]

The Flies also got presumeably extinct by Hornet because she killed their brood mother purposefully

[maiden meteor]

Hornet is a hater

[solid elk]

Are all the flies from Broodmother, or just the ones in the Slab?

[serene belfry]

hornet be like good riddance

[runic musk]

Hornet would probably see to their extinction she HATES the flies.

[amber bridge]

Speaking of the ants, the way the Shamans spoke of the ant colony felt as if they were around far longer than the Citadel was around and it had to be a long time, no? Similar as Verdania and their prince(s) that would mean the Queen must be as old as those. I only saw her fight and never what happened afterwards to her so I might be mssing dialogues

[uncut holly]

The Flies, The Swamp People, and The Craws where the only faction that werent either dead or completely taken over by the haunting for the most part

[serene belfry]

i share her sentiment for them and also her sentiment for anything fluffy

[solid elk]

She was glad they could die in such a beautiful place.

[maiden meteor]

Bug racism

[serene belfry]

also wtf do i do with these craw summons

[uncut holly]

Ingame we kill off The Flies, and The Swamp People and kill the leader of The Craws. That being said all of these groups kinda sucked and where pillaging and killing people

[runic musk]

The craw gauntlet in Greymoor. Theres a door with a slot.

[serene belfry]

why the birds summoning me i dont trust

[maiden meteor]

JUDGEMENT

[lean temple]

Yes, they were the powers in the land before GMS came on the scene. They say Karmelita once united the Ants against GMS

[serene belfry]

https://tenor.com/view/crow-of-judgement-judgement-bird-army-intensefies-gif-20318504

[dapper willow]

It seems like that all hive-like species die out in hollow knight
We never see a replacement queen for them, or hear about them so they seem to be sqrewed either way because no queen lives forever

[uncut holly]

exactly this

[serene belfry]

cause when someone (usually us) kills the queen/brood mother they are just kinda fucked

[edgy barn]

Actually, a new baby brood mother appears in Act 3 if you go back to the nest

[uncut holly]

Ooooh, can we kill it?

[amber bridge]

queen behavior... Is what I would say if I can still figure out what the hect GMS even is

[lean temple]

Also we kinda kill Crawfather too

[solid elk]

There must be more than 1 female fly that can take that place. One of the jailer at least may be female and start breeding.

At some point, a breeding Queen lays a female that can become a queen

[uncut holly]

Can we talk to it like Fluke Hermit

[edgy barn]

Not as far as I know

[maiden meteor]

Ants will likely live in without Karmelita

[edgy barn]

But you can talk to it

[maiden meteor]

Karmelita just united the tribes

[uncut holly]

Well thats good atleast we didnt genocide all House Flies

[lean temple]

Many were own children

[solid elk]

Okay, the flies could have been redeemed. The Citadel forced them into being jailers.

[dapper willow]

I think the ants will be fine

[solid elk]

Also, the chef is a Fly, right. He seemed like a good dude.

[maiden meteor]

Playing with Hornets belongings def isn’t innocent behavior

[uncut holly]

Yeah and the Citadel told them that they wher guilty for being born, their Needolin dialogue has them calling the people who they are imprisoning more guilty than them

They also wish to be forgiven it seems

Even though they dont even know their own crime

Been too long

[edgy barn]

About the ants, the three "sane" ones we see (Gurr, the shopkeeper and the secret one that appears in Act 3) all have these grey mots, so it seems like the few remaining took to marking themselves to distinguish from the haunted ones

[solid elk]

They were just playing! It was because they were taught to be bad, not that they are bad!

You don't put down a dog because they had a bad owner

[solid elk]

Oh god, where is this?

[severe siren]

Honestly i buy it this is very cool and also consistent enough to be believable

[uncut holly]

If you play the Needolin to the flies they will be forced to sing instead of fight you before breaking free

[severe siren]

Its literally just the marked ants who are sane

[true vector]

The hunters journal shows she thinks theyre gross and doesnt feel bad for killing them

[solid elk]

Hot damn Hornet

[uncut holly]

You can then breifly read fly thoughts

[serene belfry]

who tf are those

[uncut holly]

you can do this with any enemy

[serene belfry]

the guy who i think was the merchant i found dead havent met the other 2

i hate the ants with a passion

[dapper willow]

the flies did rob her and inprison her to be fair
And they spit disgusting goo at her too

[solid elk]

Tbh, I am too busy trying not to lose my rosaries for that, but I appreciate knowing

[serene belfry]

i heard apparently during the fight where she gets her cloak bag she does double damage cause shes so pissed

[dapper willow]

turn them into necklaces in bellhart
Its worth it

[true vector]

the flying guys and the guys who throw the shurikens are rhe worst i swear they have aimbot or moon lord ai

[solid elk]

Guys, they can be changed! All it takes is their maggots raised elsewhere that isnt literally a hell prison

[uncut holly]

So im confused on the Citadel timeline a bit. Phantom exists she's Lace's sister and has an optional area dedicated to them in The Mist which is all them projecting the Mist, but they where there releasing the exhaust of the Citadel by the Citadel. They where also seemingly being sustained with large numbers of spools. So this means Phantom probably predated the Citadel if GMS is contained?

[edgy barn]

Gur is a hidden boss from a Wish, and the other appears in the target practice room in Far Fields, the one right above the bell station

[solid elk]

The flies that you get the pickled muckmaggot from were chefs of the Citadel. They seemed like normal peopoe with odd tastes

[serene belfry]

i explored hunters march on my first day when the game came out

[true vector]

team cherry really had to calculate my acceleration and trajectory in the projectile code for every ranged enemy in this game

[true vector]

Same

[uncut holly]

Because the ruling theory is the Citadel is containg GMS playing its song as part of one big Weaver spell to keep Grand Mother Silk asleep

[serene belfry]

savage beastfly and that one gauntlet had me losing my mind

[solid elk]

It is assumed that Phantom and Lace were created around the same time?

[dapper willow]

They try to kill hornet on sight

[amber bridge]

Wasnt it implied Phantom is also a likewise creation by the GMS similar to Lace?

[true vector]

oh yea i wonder why lugoli is “disgraced”

[serene belfry]

i was thinking "why do some of these enemies have the same amount of attacks as fucking pure vessel"

[uncut holly]

Yeah Phantom is the same as Lace

Which means that GMS presumeably would do anything for both of her children as we see with Lace.

[solid elk]

Hornet also kills things on sight. Let's not point fingers; we all stab first and ask questions later when literal Haunting is around

[uncut holly]

In game Phantom challenges you to the death, and purposefully lets you kill them because they dont want to waste away like Lace, but Lace is seemingly way better off than them

[edgy barn]

Disagree, Lace is very clearly the favored one

[uncut holly]

Probably yeah

[solid elk]

He made gross foods, but that is a cultural thing. I'm sure Dung Defender would be offender if you said he was worse for playing in poop.

[uncut holly]

But we know that GMS probably cared about both

[true vector]

I think phantom is like an imperfect version made before lace, which is why she has to wear the mask to hide the disfigurement

[uncut holly]

Phantom was way worse off than Lace was though

[serene belfry]

phantom is abandoned, aged and presuambly deformed or smth

[dapper willow]

she makes up with most of the intelligent people
Even the ones who want to die by her hand

[serene belfry]

yea

[edgy barn]

GMS was willing to kill everybody in order to preserve Lace, meanwhile Phantom was sentenced to play the Exhaust Organ forever

[amber bridge]

I kinda wish in general to have at least some dialogues from GMS's words herself. Even Radiance had some of her dialogues

[solid elk]

Is Lace wasting away actually that different from normal bugs dying of old age? Like, I'm unsure what she means that isn't just complaining about mortality

[dapper willow]

Phantom was the prototype lace

[uncut holly]

I think the Citadel sentenced them to play Organ forever, which was containing GMS.

[true vector]

Lace can theoretically live forever given silk right

[serene belfry]

what does the exhaust organ even do

[solid elk]

Does GMS have Needolin dialogue?

[uncut holly]

Supposedly Lace needs a constant supply of silk to be sustained at all times.

[true vector]

What exhaust organs normally do

[dapper willow]

pump gas into the frog people's land and make them hate you

[uncut holly]

They are supposedly very fragile because if they run out they will die

[drowsy mortar]

So the Wisp Thicket cultists, what exactly is their God?

[serene belfry]

...ANCIENT ENEMY...
...I DO NOT FEAR YOU...
...LET ME BE FREE...
...I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN...
...DAWN WILL BREAK...
...THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED...

[true vector]

the “flame”

[amber bridge]

not that I know of?

[solid elk]

That's just eating food for normal bugs. Why is she complaining when he life is literally longer and better than near everyone else?

[serene belfry]

from the radiance "ancient enemy" interests me greatly

[uncut holly]

Radiance moment

[drowsy mortar]

I imagine they pray to some form of HB, doesn't seem to be the Nightmare Heart tho

Theirs is normal fire, not crimson

[amber bridge]

Aint that abt the void?

[serene belfry]

seems to support the theory that the void and the higher beings or at least the radiance were enemies

[solid elk]

Like starvation or dehydration

[dapper willow]

Its said that lace needs a lot of silk but its not specified how much really
Also it is speculation by hornet?
I don't remember

[uncut holly]

Yeah I think it is implied that the Void is the Radiances opposite within the context of the original game

[uncut holly]

I think its more fragile then that because the entire system might be to sustain them

[serene belfry]

and that she (or they depending on how many of the higher beings you consider to be enemies of the void) usurped the lands from the ancient civilization or the void itself perhaps

[solid elk]

Girl, if the system sustains you, and you are practically immortal within Pharloom because of it, that is still a good system.

Needing pounds kf silk every day to live forever is still living forever

[true vector]

Idt its a god at all, i think wispfire is just a phenomenon that occurs when you burn silk and these cultists have mistaken it for a “god”, psure the game states father of the flame is just a guy in the cage being immolated

[edgy barn]

The Father of the Flame (the thing they worship) was build by they themselves

[uncut holly]

Back in ye olden days of Hollow Knight the Radiance was seen to be the Voids opposite in a way, Light vs Dark. Except this Light wants to bring bugs backto their base instincts because thats how she left them back in the day.

Radiance wants to get rid of the Intelligence the Pale King brought.

[edgy barn]

But the fire itself is just stated to be there

[serene belfry]

actually the moth tribe was a thing and clearly sentient

the whole "they weren't sentient until pale king made them" could also be pk propaganda

[uncut holly]

Yeah but Radiance also seemed to have ruled over the land in general for a time

[solid elk]

Lace's complaint is like if you needed to eat 10k calories a day to survive, but you also live forever. That is still a good deal!

[uncut holly]

Alot of the game seems to imply that the PK did actually teach bugs

[winter iris]

Considering the everbloom being an splinter of something grater, there might be an actual oppostie to the Void, a real god of light.

[uncut holly]

Monomon the Teacher doesnt seem like they would lie

[winter iris]

The PK in fact raised many bugs to higher sapience.

[solid elk]

It would be weird to make the Radiance and not have that be the premier God of Light

Like making a Silk God above GMS would be very weird

[uncut holly]

Radiance seemingly ruled the land long before Pale King then went away for a bit and came back later.

But it was their Kingdom, of instinct driven bugs. Which is presumeably why she is said to deliberately "revert" them back

[bleak mauve]

were there anythings lorewise in Silksong mentioned PK?

[uncut holly]

The Wings Moulds thats it

[true vector]

Also if you consider what wisps are irl its just ignited methane from rotting corpses that ppl mistake for ghosts, my theory is wispfire is what you get from burning the silk infused bodies of bugs in pharloom. We alr know silk had life-giving properties (the wraiths in the mist and lace) so its possible that tiny amount of silk is able to bestow some rudimentary consciousness into the fire projectiles

[white panther]

We know some weavers reached the Abyss and they were probably studying it, do we know if this was something by their own will or was it ordered by Silk?

[uncut holly]

Also the fact that the kingdom of Hallownest is called "Kingdom of the White Wyrm"

[serene belfry]

its possible she let the pk do their thing until she realised that she was on the verge of being completely erased and retaliated

[solid elk]

Yo is this facts?

[uncut holly]

Either way I dont think it was possible for the Radiance to be completely forgotten, because the Pale King could have worked to make them forget, but he didnt. And we see he does some pretty extreme things. I feel like with his Foresight it means that there was no way to save the kingdom

[true vector]

am i onto something or on something 👅

[uncut holly]

The only way the Radiance could have died is how it died from the Void, specifically locked in a Vessel where it couldnt escape

[serene belfry]

any kingdom that would have to face against the radiance would be fucked

[uncut holly]

But there was no way out of all the possibilities the Pale King could see with their foresight to kill the Radiance and save the Kingdom

[edgy barn]

Did Pale King even know of the Radiance before the Infection started?

[serene belfry]

almost nothing you can do in that situation

[solid elk]

We should really have a prequel of before the Citadel or Pale King so the world is actually not a Hellscape for once.

[dapper willow]

I am not confident in this

[uncut holly]

The mushrooms talk on how their demise was unavoidable and what use to see a demise unavoidable

[serene belfry]

its left ambiguous, maybe they had some battle, maybe the pale king just unknowingly made everyone forget without realising a higher being was already controlling the land

[maiden meteor]

“You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams”

[true vector]

Well its got a practical gameplay reason too, if hk was set in peacetimes everyone would be normal and not infected so we wouldnt have a reason to kill enemies

[serene belfry]

there seems to be no way to repel her aside from the void

[uncut holly]

I believe the reason for the Vessels was because even though we dont know how far the Foresight can see, he could atleast make the foundations for a future that would kill the Radiance after wards and then their kingdom can heal, with whats left

[dapper willow]

that is after the infection started

[dapper willow]

no way that we know of that is
I'm pretty sure the sealing worked for a time

until she got out

[serene belfry]

issue with that is by then there was nothing left to heal

[edgy barn]

The sealing itself involved the use of Void

[dapper willow]

it did indeed

[solid elk]

Just be the villain, EZ

[serene belfry]

^ and even still it was very temporary

[uncut holly]

Yeah but seemingly there was no other way, it was the best outcome

[maiden meteor]

I mean Radiance being completely and utterly forgotten also sounds like a conscious effort

[uncut holly]

Or the one the Pale King was happy with

[serene belfry]

something i really hope a dlc goes into is how the pale king died

why all the kingsmoulds around him are dead

[uncut holly]

I dont think they will ever tell us, its such a big mystery for people to speculate on

[serene belfry]

i doubt they will

yea but itd be cool to get an answer

[maiden meteor]

PK seems to have outlawed anything that could pose a threat to him

[uncut holly]

Yeah we know now the Pale King probably bound the Snail Shamans to their ancestral grounds in Hollow Knight

[dapper willow]

he outlawed thigns for a good reason generally

[edgy barn]

Keep in mind the only ones that would know of her is the moth tribe

[dapper willow]

the moth tribe forgot her on their own

[uncut holly]

He probably bound the Snail Shamans to their Ancestral Mounds due to the threat they would cause just having them walking around. Aswell as he outlawed Life Blood.

[rough sandal]

Just gotten to the first ending

beyond the spiderverse when

[amber bridge]

Pale King was def that of a terrible tyrant for sure, he had his good and bad (outweights it given his creation)

[maiden meteor]

I think King might have actually had some sorta deal with Snails

[uncut holly]

Pale King is a nice guy compared to the Citadel though

Citadel wasnt 1 ruler but, it still did alot of bad things

[serene belfry]

citadel on some blasphemous mother of mothers shit lmao

[maiden meteor]

Like Ancestral Mound is located in what was probably one of the central trading hubs in Hallownest

[dapper willow]

does hornet exist in the spiderverse?

[uncut holly]

The Pale King for the most part didnt try to start problem, he acted wisely, and maybe did a lil infanticide on the side, but it happens to the best of us.

[dapper willow]

will hornet meet spiderman?

[uncut holly]

Happens to the best of us

[serene belfry]

https://youtu.be/coPRIKOeeL4?si=aaEzEGcom9mT99fo

[maiden meteor]

so maybe in exchange for some info on void PK granted shamans freedom and protection

[rough sandal]

I think by the Spiderverse's logic it's perfectly possible

Besides Hornet may have a surname that's never mentioned

Maybe it's Hornet Parker

[uncut holly]

Pale King did some very immoral things, but didnt try to cause problems, he did things for his own sake and wanted to be worshipped, he was an egotistical guy who wanted others to worship him, but he was willing to get along if it didnt conflict with his goals

[maiden meteor]

Silksong not releasing is a canon event

[rough sandal]

Or Hornet is just a nickname and her actual birth name is Petra Parker

[dapper willow]

Peter Hornet Parker

[uncut holly]

The Citadel...

The Citadel............

[rough sandal]

Like she has red like spiderman

If she has an uncle he's probably dead

It all checks out guys

[uncut holly]

Citadel of Song killed everyone around them, pressed the locals into servitude across their generations, and couldnt co-exist with any power other than itself.

[rough sandal]

The reason why Silksong took so long is because Team Cherry is actually co-writing beyond the spiderverse

[uncut holly]

And alot of that was the Weavers

[true vector]

Why does hornet get period cramps or wtvr in the beginning of the game and again in the beginning of act 3 does it have something to do with the void

[maiden meteor]

We still don’t fully know Pharloom timeline but yeah Weavers sound nasty

[dapper willow]

she is just weakened

[uncut holly]

The Weavers Deified themselves, and tried to make themselves seem like gods. The other factions tried to fight back against them but they all fell due to the Weavers ability to weave seals, songs, and spells. The only one that really outlasted and fought back with the Weavers well was the Crabs, but then something unknown happened a long time ago and their entire domain dried up

[dapper willow]

good thing hornet transcends her nature
Kinda the same with the siblings
Another Pale King W

[maiden meteor]

I don’t really see any reason Weavers would turn on GMS other than them getting overly jealous of Lace

[uncut holly]

I have no idea what made them turn on GMS but they did

[dapper willow]

I think lace came after the weavers died

[uncut holly]

A proposed idea was maybe the Weavers where sacrificed to maintain Lace and or Phantom in a ritual?

[edgy barn]

I think you are giving GMS too much credit, Lace herself hates her guts.

[uncut holly]

I still have no idea

[maiden meteor]

tbf she’s angsty teen and GMS is probably overprotective

[dapper willow]

I don't think Phantom likes Mother either so she just sucks
Possibly sucks more than the radiance
At least radiance had an inciting incident while mother just Sucked from the Start

[maiden meteor]

that would be weird considering GMS is endless silk source

[uncut holly]

Weavers themselves where awful. They killed Nyleth the creator of the Stick Bugs and then without Nyleth to stop them from eatting people the Stick Bugs started eatting people, so Weavers set down wards in Shellwood to stop them from doing this, but those faded eventually.

[maiden meteor]

I mean it seems like Weavers and GMS were fine with each other for a while

[serene belfry]

the more you think about it base hollow knight doesnt actually have a villain

[uncut holly]

They claimed there was a problem, killed Nyleth to stop the problem that didnt exist and then created the problem they said was there

[dapper willow]

The spiders suck in Hollow knight too
They eat people and stuff

Another Pale King W

[uncut holly]

Weavers where responsible for killing the Ants aswell, they fought the Crabs, they killed the Green Princes Husband and turned them into a robot.

[maiden meteor]

tbf bugs have no business coming to deepnest

[green yoke]

People arguing whether the citadel knew GMS existed when this is literally the first thing you see in the game

[maiden meteor]

do we ever meet this Conductor

is that the one in High Halls

[uncut holly]

They enslaved the people of Deep Docks, Greymoor, and Sinners Road. And they bred Moorwing a giant specially bred flying Mite (Which are the flying mice) to hunt down people who ran from their duties and eat them

[dapper willow]

I don't think they did everything
I think some of the bad stuff was the weaver's successors
So the conductors

[uncut holly]

Its kinda tough to know but the Green Dancers where Weavers and the Stick Bugs where Weavers

[maiden meteor]

I think when Weavers left Citadel was already being overtaken by GMS

[uncut holly]

And also likely the Ants and Crabs

[spark valve]

it wasn't

[maiden meteor]

so they’d probably focus on catching weavers than anything

[spark valve]

the weavers who left left before hte citadel was ever created

[uncut holly]

But they created the Citadel to put her to sleep

Ah i see

[spark valve]

there are two groups of weavers

some left pharloom to escape gms, some stuck around and used the snare

[dapper willow]

makes a lot of sense actually

[green yoke]

Question

What was the butterfly that let Hornet break out at the very start

[uncut holly]

They made the Citadel though, and presumeably the supply chain that sustains it, so they are to blame for all of those attrocities

[dapper willow]

we have absolutely no idea
Maybe lace

[uncut holly]

Like forcing populations into servitude

[true vector]

Good question

[fervent bison]

https://tenor.com/view/absolute-cinema-raccoon-absolute-cinema-gif-17862327649353748812

[uncut holly]

They might have mind controlled them actually... Because Nameless Town talks about being driven downward by the Weavers

We in game can play on the Needolin and a thread of Silk will hit the heads of enemies and force them to sing, which lets us see their thoughts

[dapper willow]

Its possible it wasn't as bad until later on

[modern hollow]

I tnink it was laces butterflies as we see her controlling them in the deep docks

Really unfortunate typo

[dapper willow]

that is because of mother silk

[green yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-we-tell-him-mr-krabs-spongebob-meme-spongebob-meme-gif-24063814

[nimble ocean]

🥀

[modern hollow]

Ignore that

[nimble ocean]

I know it’s a guy

[winter iris]

"AHH, ES UN TIO"

[uncut holly]

The Weavers seemingly lured the Nameless Town people downward, its possible the entire Citadel and predicated on mind control, specifically with the lower vassal regions

[green yoke]

Okie dokie

[uncut holly]

Maybe even the first people from the Citadel aswell

[nimble ocean]

Oh wait

[modern hollow]

But still before we fight her for the first time we see her controlling the same butterfly

[nimble ocean]

😭😭😭😭😭😭

[dapper willow]

I'm just waiting for mossbag to explain this mess tbh

[uncut holly]

The butterflies are weird, they are tied to the Silk somehow. Phantom also uses them

[edgy barn]

About this, doesn't Hornet state that the downfall of Verdania was caused by a higher being (which in this case would be GMS)?

[uncut holly]

Phantom also somehow causes the Wraiths to appear or thats GMS

[uncut holly]

Idk maybe that would give some implications

[green yoke]

Calling it, butterfly boss in the dlc

Growing through larva to cocoon to adult through the fight

[edgy barn]

I don't think the wraiths were purposefully created

To me they seem more like a byproduct

[modern hollow]

I thought it was cuz verdania was directly underneath bilewater and due to tje pollution the citadel had it spread and destroyed the life there

[zinc ice]

the double jump wings in hollow knight r wings from butterfly that pale king made or sum shit

[maiden meteor]

Citadel somehow messed with Verdania and Green Prince’s lover went and put his soul into Cogwork Dancers as a peace deal

and then Citadel dipped

[zinc ice]

there some weird butterfly lore in HK too

[uncut holly]

I mean theres Lifeblood

[edgy barn]

Maybe? What remains of Verdania is not polluted though

[uncut holly]

I think we have 3 butterfly people, the singer from City of Tears, Trobio, and one of the Spirit Glade people

[green yoke]

They were cut off from fresh water though

[zinc ice]

trobbio

[modern hollow]

Yea a lot of the fresh water didn't exist after the citadels mess or was too far up to drip down to verdania

[uncut holly]

I want them to add a 3rd Trobbio fight

[green yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/red-bug-trobbio-hollow-knight-silksong-act-2-gif-16901704196331723853

[uncut holly]

It just keeps getting bigger each time

[edgy barn]

They are right next to Greymoor, which does have it

[zinc ice]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-frustration-anger-black-guy-crying-sadness-gif-25630772

[uncut holly]

Next one is on the roof with lightning

[modern hollow]

I want trobbio to encounter Grimm for the first time

[dapper willow]

lovely

[zinc ice]

they kinda dopplegangers, not attacks but they look similar

[green yoke]

Final trobbio fight ends up with his cape looking like

[zinc ice]

kinda similar attack w the tornado and similar paced fight tho

[dapper willow]

hopeful trobio
And he finally doesn't kill you

[green yoke]

Is there any consensus on the proliferation of Bells in Silksong or is it just that they're a religious item

[true vector]

Religious item

[green yoke]

Fair, just felt like the fact that they're EVERYWHERE might have a bit of an explanation

Beyond that, I mean

[true vector]

Good question

we dont see any bell making places too

[serene belfry]

dark soul reference

[edgy barn]

Deep Docks is a forge, I would assume that's where they are made.

[blissful harbor]

deep docks is a giant forge lmao

[true vector]

oh yea good point

but why so many to the point theyre able to make bellways throughout the entire kingdom

[blissful harbor]

overproduction

they just keep making more than they need

[true vector]

interesting

they dont even serve any practical purpose

[green yoke]

Like Bellhart is beyond absurd if it's just overproduction

[blissful harbor]

well they serve as homes if they’re big enough, but yea bugs like shiny shit ig

[true vector]

Where do they even get all the metal from

[quartz flicker]

They probably cool the lava

[true vector]

oh so the lava is molten metal

[quartz flicker]

shitload of lava down there

[true vector]

true

[blissful harbor]

they’re also underground, they would just mine ore from the surrounding caverns and treat it i’d assume
lots of lava to melt it down

[crisp basalt]

I assume it's just the natural result of the Musical Culture of Pharloom

[blissful harbor]

the question isn’t, why bells
it’s why so many

[green yoke]

And yet, no bug actually plays bells. Harps, strings, chimes, but never bells as I recall

[sacred heath]

the wisp gardens and the burning bugs have some kind of connection to Grimm i just know it

[true vector]

The flying guys?

[green yoke]

I'm a FOOL

[true vector]

in choral chambers

who throw the bells at u

[green yoke]

wait do they play their bells or just yeet them

[true vector]

you gotta ask them to find out man

[sacred heath]

sherma?

[green yoke]

Not bells, are they?

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hollow-night-silksong-faridulasimanet-sherma-silksong-gif-171830693794769624

Certainly not the type enemies throw or that we see scattered around

[true vector]

Maybe its a pilgrim thing

[silk dirge]

wait so did the weavers build the citadel bc gms granted them divinity and stuff like that and they wanted to worship her or smth

[spark valve]

they built the citadel to keep her asleep

[silk dirge]

why tho

[green yoke]

Freedom

[spark valve]

[Hornet]:You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule

[silk dirge]

where is this from

[blissful harbor]

basically a cow bell
kinda

[spark valve]

mask maker dialogue

[silk dirge]

oh

i never unmasked him

i probably shouldve tried after doing lacquer quest

[true vector]

Reminds me of azathoth where he has a cabal of goblins playing music to keep him asleep

[silk dirge]

im still very curious who conductor romino is hes only mentioned as the creator of the poem and never mentioned again in game

[true vector]

Its just a conductor man he prolly dead too

[golden olive]

he's absolutely dead

[silk dirge]

yeah but why was he the only one to speak out

[true vector]

man whiteward had so much potential

[silk dirge]

or did others speak out

[lyric crow]

didnt really get the true ending with the knight can someone explain

[true vector]

Probably they all knew the weavers intentions its just nobody was gonna do anything about it

[silk dirge]

the knight and the shadelord are the same and it commands the void to lift hornet out

[true vector]

I thought omg bloodborne but nope its just asgore

[silk dirge]

the thing im curious about is where does lace come in bc it seems to me the whole weaver hunt thing was to get enough silk to sustain her

[spark valve]

sometime before the citadel was made

could be after the first batch of weavers fled which would provide some motivation for it

[silk dirge]

also whats up with first sinner were they like a weaver that defected or smth

i just got true ending so i have a lot of catching up to do with lore in this channel

[spark valve]

her sin was apostasy, could've been prior to the weavers putting gms to sleep but also could've been after since the citadel is both a church and a cage meaning they did still worship her even after that

[whole holly]

what is up with Weaver Absalom, i mean she interacted with void but didn't see anything interesting, but we clearly see void interact with silk

[true vector]

Was the weaver hunt done by gms?

[spark valve]

yes

[whole holly]

maybe she never discovered that and was unlucky?

[true vector]

so she took over the citadel once the weavers left

[spark valve]

not exactly

she started mind controlling the bugs who took over control of the citadel from weavers by force

the ones who left left before the citadel was even built

[hasty idol]

I don't think unlucky is a good word. Void silk comes from gms being trapped in void, so may be it requires voided weaver?

[silk dirge]

also whenever hornet gets a new ability theres the whole thing about like "daughter of a distant land reclaim the future of our kingdom" did the weavers who stayed realize their mistakes and are hoping for a descendant to come in and save the kingdom or do they just want hornet to put them back into power

[spark valve]

probably a bit of both

[true vector]

I see thats why the weavers in hallownest are so technologically primitive

[whole holly]

oh, so Void's influence on GMS created Void infused silk as consequence?

[hasty idol]

I don't think we see non voided weavers with void silk

[whole holly]

but what bugs actively used it? shamans and steel seers are limited with their usage, Shamans rely on Soul but Steel Seer basically utilized it with restrictions?

was Ancient Civilization also in Pharloom, is it same as one in Hallownest? are large abyss bugs in Hallownest also in pharloom?

[hasty idol]

Like even weaver tech fully sunk into abyss still emuts that cold light, seemingly untouched by the void(weaver door, etc in abyss)

[modern hollow]

Ive noticed in the true ending the same columns you see throughout the hallownest abyss appear in pharlooms

[whole holly]

do we see Abyss Creature (Lifeblood Bug) in Pharloom?

[modern hollow]

I assume by that logic those columns are structures by the ancient civilization

[whole holly]

why does GMS end up being in Void?

[terse warren]

because the snare the shamans made was to attract the void to get her eaten by it and kill her

[modern hollow]

Cuz we summoned a void portal

[crisp basalt]

Oh so Weavers are the ones that are responsible for everything going to shit huh?

No wonder GMS hates them so much

[modern hollow]

Well

[sinful nimbus]

In the same way moths are in HK yeah

They betrayed their god and the god is now far more malicious

[crisp basalt]

Difference is Moth motive

[sinful nimbus]

well malicious isn't really apt for GMS

like at all

[crisp basalt]

She is Hurt

And Hurt people Hurt people

[whole holly]

is City of Steel DLC or Game?

[terse warren]

it's not in the game

[whole holly]

so DLC?

[terse warren]

we dont know?

the game came out 10 days ago

[terse warren]

tbh GMS is quite a lot more tame compared to what she has gone through

[whole holly]

well, somebody knows that City of Steel exists, i think form Team Cherry interview

[crisp basalt]

So, "She Lied", we know Weavers turned against GMS because they Realized she doesn't really love them, question now I think is what exactly cause that realisation

[terse warren]

we know from some lore

[terse warren]

that's wrong

First Sinner turned against GMS because she thought GMS lied about something

The other Weavers just thought she was doing a bad job

[spark valve]

city of steel is where one of the part weavers was captured, it's not even necessarily where the steel bugs are from but the name seems telling

[crisp basalt]

Yeah I think the big question is about What

[whole holly]

oh, thanks

[terse warren]

95% of the people she hurts are people who have hurt her

[crisp basalt]

How did the countless Pilgrims hurt her?

[sinful nimbus]

She's mostly doing it for her child instead of out of revenge

[terse warren]

"She called us daughters... Called us divine..." FS thinks that GMS lied about one of or both of those things

[terse warren]

Most of the time she's not actively hurting the pilgrims and the journey to the Citadel is just that dangerous

[spark valve]

the ones who actually betrayed and bound gms are long gone even the conductors didn't really know what they were doing

[sinful nimbus]

Haunting is pretty bad

[terse warren]

Most of the people she's hurting are Weavers and the Caste

[lime nova]

Wait it was the pilgrims that bound her?

[spark valve]

no

[crisp basalt]

Sure but at this point most of the danger are Haunted bugs

[terse warren]

Are we sure they didn't know what was going on?

[winter iris]

How did Hornet even get defeated and captured?

[terse warren]

we don't know

[crisp basalt]

Bone Scroll says they used rune cage

[spark valve]

Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.[Hornet]:You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.

[crisp basalt]

Same thing that she gets captured by warden fly

[sinful nimbus]

Pilgrims are being turned against eachother and stuff what GMS is doing is pretty nasty

[terse warren]

mhhhh fair

[vague jasper]

She refers to us, not me so she is referring to all the weavers

[sinful nimbus]

I think she made lace and they felt betrayed

[crisp basalt]

Question was GMS actually disappointed with Weavers, or was just their Perception?

[terse warren]

yeah of course, was just saying it's not as bad as the infection imo (half the bugs gms controls are already corpses)

[crisp basalt]

Before betrayal

[vague jasper]

I don't think it was just perception