sk-lore

[gilded beacon]

The tall ones are that bad

[fossil swift]

i just really hate the tall ones

[naive crag]

i beat her 2nd try yeah

[gilded beacon]

I also loved the Father Craw battle

Peak boss design

[fossil swift]

his design is funny

[distant briar]

can you only fight him in act 3?

[fossil swift]

which will make beating him even funnier

[naive crag]

doesn't pilby make it to the citadel

[gilded beacon]

Pretty sure

[fossil swift]

yeah he's in act 3

[spare pendant]

i mean the ones making up the marrow. as in, the shells and such that it's comprised of

[gilded beacon]

Also I can get my own Craw as a pet

[worn flicker]

Im pretty sure skull tyrant smazhes into him

[distant briar]

in fact can you get any memento in act 2?

[naive crag]

not if you open the gate before

[whole holly]

wait where?

[wary plover]

The problem with craws is that they flap flap randomly so they're hard to predict and they sometimes just fall to the ground

[gilded beacon]

Probably no

[worn flicker]

What have i done...

[fossil swift]

flying enemies the bane of my existence

[distant briar]

that’s crazy

[gilded beacon]

After you beat Father Craw to the left room

[fossil swift]

I'd rather fight the stick bugs than the craws

[distant briar]

what gate

[fossil swift]

the gate to right of one of the pilgrim's shops i think

[gilded beacon]

I love those little fellas, Sister Splinter is cool

[wary plover]

Well you're going to hate a certain disgraced chef

[fossil swift]

[gilded beacon]

Ass Jimm??

[fossil swift]

man silksong is full of surprises

[naive crag]

to citadel

[whole holly]

does it become tool like cogflies or just friendly craw?

[distant briar]

wait you can safe the little pilgrim at the start?

[fossil swift]

you can

[main osprey]

I know I shouldn't be in here because spoilers, but in Mosshome you see the thread of silk going inside normal pilgrims and turning them into enemies

[naive crag]

i saved him unknowingly

[wary plover]

Wait what little pilgrim at the start

[main osprey]

I'm guessing that gets explained

[fossil swift]

i don't remember what the requirements are though

[naive crag]

and skull tyrant didnt take any lives..

[worn flicker]

That bastard threw it back so hard it killed me more Times than id like to admit

[wary plover]

Do not be in here I accidentally spoiled so much for myself

[fossil swift]

the little pilgrim in bone bottom at the camp

[gilded beacon]

You put it in your house and they bring rosaries and shell shards when you come back, it's passive income

[fossil swift]

the one near the bench

[distant briar]

I opened the gate before the skull tyrant killed him Im pretty sure

[main osprey]

Leaving

[worn flicker]

Better, an addition to your home

[wary plover]

Wait he dies? I never noticed. Hoooow? And how do you save him

[naive crag]

maybe theres more requirements but hes alive for me for some reason

[wary plover]

I thought you get a different pilgrim everytime in bone bottom

[whole holly]

beat last judge

[distant briar]

did you do all Bone Bottom quests?

[fossil swift]

He will die if he doesn't leave before you release the skull crusher

[spare pendant]

which gate makes him leave what

[naive crag]

only after opening the gate

[gilded beacon]

My Craw's name is "Leroy" 😄

[spare pendant]

the grand gate?

[naive crag]

yes

[gilded beacon]

I love him sm

[wary plover]

Why does beating the last judge save him

[spare pendant]

oh then i think i did save him

[distant briar]

where does he go then?

[naive crag]

he goes to first shrine

[spare pendant]

oh .. maybe not then

[fossil swift]

Okay I haven't exactly unlocked the gate that releases Skull Crusher

[wary plover]

I saw sad sherma singing and honestly I am depressed now

[distant briar]

can you talk to him there?

[worn flicker]

The humble Pilby, so precious yet so easly forgotten

[distant briar]

what gate is that

[fossil swift]

There is a pilgrim who has a store with that gate that you have to pay to open
To the right of that store, there is a gate caging said skull crusher

You'll know it's that big ass thing because it quite literally will growl if you are near it

[wary plover]

Ohhhhhh no. OH NO I OPENED TJAr one

Omg I was wondering where he went

[fossil swift]

Ah

Well then

Can't help you here then

[wary plover]

Is it possible to kill him before opening the gate, but he was so scary.... I just wanted to unlock the short cut

[gilded beacon]

What's the worst enemy so far?

[distant briar]

Wait the gate in pilgrims rest?

[naive crag]

basically anything thats converted by the void and flies at the same time

[distant briar]

Im so lost on this

[gilded beacon]

Most things, huh?

[wary plover]

Garmond..., he was easier than a craw

[naive crag]

if you reach act 2 before he's ASSASSINATED he moves to pilgrims rest

[spare pendant]

i think you got your wires crossed

[distant briar]

whaaaat

[fossil swift]

Wait did i

[spare pendant]

the skull tyrant is what kills him, and that's unrelated to the big gate

[fossil swift]

Wait is it not that gate ?

[distant briar]

and then from there to songclave?

[naive crag]

the skull crusher doesnt do anything

[fossil swift]

Then whats behind the big gate

[wary plover]

Whose assassinayed

[naive crag]

its the skull tyrant

[spare pendant]

it's an angry rhinoceros beetle

[fossil swift]

Wait doesn't skull tyrant kill Pillby though

Ah

[spare pendant]

the skull tyrant is unrelated

[naive crag]

tyrant not crusher

[fossil swift]

Right, my bad

[gilded beacon]

Mort mentions that he needs more rosaries to enter the Citadel, is Pharloom pay to win??

[naive crag]

but he moves if you go to act 2 to pilgrims rest that part is true

[fossil swift]

Wait so where and how does skull tyrant spawn

[spare pendant]

it's a quest for the marrow

[distant briar]

More money equals more divinity but like it’s real life divinity so it doesn’t do jackshit

[fossil swift]

Ah I see

I guess I'll continue to explore Bellhart in the meantime

[distant briar]

so after I do the quest the pilgrim dies in Bone Bottom?

[spare pendant]

just do it in act 2

[distant briar]

I need some npc video for every Npc on youtube there are too many

[naive crag]

tbh i wish there wasnt so much missable stuff

i didn't get kidnapped and didnt experience running around naked

[distant briar]

how did you get in the slab then

[spare pendant]

apostate key

[naive crag]

and it isnt the same knowing it than experiencing it blind

[fossil swift]

It is what it is

[low sigil]

Can we talk that plasmium(That's looks like lifeblood, I would said it's the same thing just that with a different name), is almost as fucked up as the infection of radiance?

[gilded beacon]

Fr, there's lots of interesting back stories and I've probably missed most of them

[distant briar]

Hollow knight had like not even half the amount

anyone knows what happened out of the Far Fields act 3 npc?

[gilded beacon]

Mort? He ded

[wary plover]

Does all the lost characters get saved after the fight

[distant briar]

no the one with the camouflage

[quiet yew]

Do we think that GMS is a pale being? Or just a higher being

[spare pendant]

She's called a pale being

[distant briar]

she’s both I guess

[gilded beacon]

Void tendrils immobilized him, probably ded tho

[quiet yew]

Thought so, a friend of mine didn’t think so, but I was pretty sure

[distant briar]

what where do you see that

[wary plover]

What is gms relation to the weavers

[gilded beacon]

Where you find him normally, in the floor

[naive crag]

pale being

[quiet yew]

My best guess is that she created them, from that cutscene of a small spider being elevated to weaver by a strand of silk

[spare pendant]

She made them all

[quiet yew]

Thanks! Do you remember where it was said? :)

[spare pendant]

Except hornet

[wary plover]

Wait so herrah is a weaver but hornet is sort of like a mudblood

[naive crag]

you literally get the pale nails spell by binding her arm

[distant briar]

part wyrm which actually makes her better

[spare pendant]

Hornet is half weaver you don't need to appropriate fictional slurs just say half weaver 😭

[quiet yew]

Ahh yeah, that’s right

[spare pendant]

She's half weaver and half wyrm

[quiet yew]

Thanks!

[naive crag]

wtf is a mudblood

[distant briar]

Anyone knows how to open that door next to the Skarrsinger?

[distant briar]

harry potter ahh

[spare pendant]

it's a slur in harry potter for people who have one witch parent and one non-witch parent

[wary plover]

Wait it's from Harry Potter? I just used it cause I saw people using it everywhere online

[spare pendant]

yeah lmao

[naive crag]

brings the question who would be the witch in this situation

[wary plover]

Obviously herrah because she is a spider and is of weaver heritage

[spare pendant]

i mean pale king is basically the god of hallownest's orthodoxy

so definitely herrah

[wary plover]

Isn't that the void

[spare pendant]

nobody worships the void in hallownest

[wary plover]

Pale king needed the void to seal away his greatest enemy, so while he is worshiped he's useless

[spare pendant]

or in pharloom actually

[naive crag]

how can you call pk useless..m

[distant briar]

wrong there is one person in steelsoul that does ☝🏻🤓

[spare pendant]

mimimimi

i forgot about steel clan

[wary plover]

He sealed himself away when disaster happened. He's like "oopsies bye"

[naive crag]

he can see the future what would you do in that situation

[wary plover]

So it goes

[naive crag]

if you knew its gonna happen and you cant stop it

[spare pendant]

pale king has major odin vibes

[sinful nimbus]

No?

[spare pendant]

he cast away the radiance to prevent the infection, therefore causing it

[wary plover]

Yes. This. He's like a kinder all father.

[sinful nimbus]

"I need a hammer to drive in a nail so I'm useless"

[naive crag]

what's the strongest character we know of apart from the shade lord

[wary plover]

just because you need a hammer to drive a nail doesn't make you the user useless.

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance or Pale King

[distant briar]

Radiance

[spare pendant]

herald, for he is truly Free

[distant briar]

The radiance calls the void her ancient enemy

[spare pendant]

powerscalers when the great herald simply flies away:

[wary plover]

Is mr mushroom canon serious or just a inside joke

[distant briar]

I think serious with silksong

[spare pendant]

he's canonically a higher being with serious lore he's just really goofy

[distant briar]

Hornet talks to him as if he was someone very important

[wary plover]

It feels like one big prank by team chrrry

[sinful nimbus]

Lore wise he's an immortal being who shows up to signal that an age is about to end

Meta wise he just references a bunch of TC games in his dialogue

[wary plover]

Wait really, where

[naive crag]

he's the herald of age

[lofty otter]

Is grand mother silk at the same level as radiance or is she not at that god level

[wary plover]

That's pretty cool.

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is a higher being yeah

[distant briar]

The whole questline she tries talking to him and at the end he has a conversation with her

[sinful nimbus]

Arguably she's weaker than Radiance but she's still on par broadly

[spare pendant]

Radiance is more powerful when we get to fight her because she grows in strength from worship

[sinful nimbus]

That's fanon

[naive crag]

well for one she is in the physical world so shes easily accesible and can be killed without a vessel and the dream nail I think

[spare pendant]

It's strongly implied

[sinful nimbus]

Where

[uncut holly]

I dont think theres really directly weaker or stronger. Radiance cant really be killed but they both have different skills.

[lofty otter]

That’s what I was thinking too yeah

[spare pendant]

In the fact she grows weaker as she's forgotten

[sinful nimbus]

She's a dream entity so being forgotten gives her less space to exist

[uncut holly]

I think that Grand Mother Silk couldnt be killed like a normal bug and had to be binded by a Weaver to be killed. Because if they could be killed by a normal bug, then why didnt people go and kill them already.

[wary plover]

What exactly is silk's skill set beside shooting needles

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't mean the more she's remembered the stronger she gets, she just has more opportunity to exert her influence. And the key word is "remembered", not worshipped.

[distant briar]

that shit makes an awful amount of sense

[uncut holly]

Silk can convert soul into silk, weave spells, shields and do anything the weavers can do

[lofty otter]

GMS is capable of making sentient life though right?

[naive crag]

Well the shamans are who made the trap aren't they

[distant briar]

like she did with weavers and lace yes

[uncut holly]

They are presumeably more profficient at it than the Weavers, because the whole silk possession is just one big elaborate spell weaved

[sinful nimbus]

Yes she modified Pharlids into the sapient weavers

[spare pendant]

All it means is that the inverse relationship is tautological, even if there's an inherent cap (which iirc is what absrad is)

[sinful nimbus]

The relationship doesn't exist

[uncut holly]

The Shaman trap was to open a big portal to the Void and push Grandma Silk through it

[sinful nimbus]

Worship is never indicated to matter

[naive crag]

Wrong channel

[lofty otter]

I feel like the fact GMS can make sentient life to do her bidding instead of needing a vessel or worship puts her easily on par with Radiance

[wary plover]

Am I crazy or do the mosquitoes in vile water hum to the ost

[naive crag]

didn't radiance make the moth tribe

[uncut holly]

Radiance doesnt need worship from what I know, Radiance just wants worship and was jealous that the Pale King was getting their worshipers. Only very small parts of the Moth Tribe remembered the Radiance, but this was just to keep rememberance alive so Seer actually knew about them.

[real plank]

Why did Silk capture Hornet or the Weavers anyway? Is it just out of rage?

[lofty otter]

Just heavily influenced I think

[sinful nimbus]

She probably needs their silk back for Lace

[uncut holly]

Im pretty sure the Radiance isnt sustained on worship, they just want worship. They used to have the entirety of Hallownest under their thrall, presumeably because the bugs "remembered" the Radiance forcefully

[spare pendant]

It definitely is to an extent, by dialogue from both moss prophet and the remaining moth seer. But the point was that she becomes closer to the peak of her strength the more space she has in dreams. Worship is a means to an end; you can't forget your goddess.

That peak is represented by absrad, which she is still growing towards when we fight her.

Anyway time to sleep

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance's literal combat prowess is never indicated to be influenced by worship

Neither Moss Prophet, Seer, nor Godseeker's dialogue pertaining to AbsRad indicate that

[uncut holly]

They just want worship they dont need worship

[spark valve]

being forgotten kills radiance, there's not much reason to think that her power is otherwise variable based on worship or even knowledge (other than being known by more things giving her more places to exist)

[uncut holly]

Do we ever learn that it would kill them if they where forgotten completely?

[spark valve]

yes Seer calls being forgotten 'the only death that matters'

[uncut holly]

I see

[real plank]

I wonder why she couldn’t used her own, she made tons of silk herself

[spark valve]

she's obviously being a bit figurative but the obvious implication is that for something that actually only exists in minds being forgotten is just death

[naive crag]

btw is there any relevant motifs in silksong?

[uncut holly]

So it could be an abstract concept death, they cant physically die, but they cant do anything if no one remembers them

[naive crag]

in HK there's a lot related to the lore

[spark valve]

sure, not much difference

[uncut holly]

Was there anything that even said a little bit on how the Blasted Steps got dried up

And the Sands of Karak

[spark valve]

no but the shamans suggest it's caused by either gms or the citadel

[distant briar]

she probably has a finite Silk source and can’t spin new Silk fast enough or something like that. In the true ending you can see GMS giving up her physical body to empower Hornet’s super jump with Silk (if she had unlimited Silk she wouldn’t need to do that)

[uncut holly]

Well the Crabs are the last civilization besides the Swamp People to remain standing. So that would mark the end of all other civilizations if its either GMS or the Citadel

I dunno how either of them would evaporate that much water

Also begs the question why they didnt just move into the swamp

Does the memento from Watcher at the Edge say anything?

[distant briar]

the ants are still going aswell

[uncut holly]

Most of all the ants where killed by the haunting though, their own queen is hiding from them

[distant briar]

but not all

[uncut holly]

Theres the shopkeeper guy who doesnt speak english, theres the outcast who is an insane trophy making murderer, and theres the queen

They are still around but really really not well off

[distant briar]

what were all of the civilizations in pharloom again

-Lost Verdania

-Ant colonies

[uncut holly]

The Flies, The Ants, The Crabs, The Green Dancer Bugs, The Swamp People, The Stick Bugs.

And then also Snail Shamans where around but they arent a civlization

[distant briar]

what are the flies, crabs and stick bugs

[uncut holly]

The Flies are the flies at The Slab, they where a band of bugs that committed some unknown crime against the Citadel and where forced to pay penance there by managing the prisoners, but its possible that the Flies always lived in The Slab and they had no problem mistreating the prisoners and taking their things.

The Stick Bugs have a society and Nyleth was seemingly very important to them, they are practically all completely fallen to the haunting by the time of the game.

The Crabs are all completely gone with the exception of a few animals like Conch Flies. Only one crab still exists and its the Watcher at the Edge boss, a grey beaten up dusty crab knight. The crabs presumeably died to some unknown event where the coral caves where all dried up.

[distant briar]

-Lost Verdania
-Ants
-Swamp people
-Coral tower
-The craws
-Bellhart
-Weavers (nameless town)
-The citadel (includes the flies in the slab) (includes all pilgrims)
-Flame worshippers
-Stick bugs (woodland people)
-the abyss

[uncut holly]

The Craws might have been around aswell although we really dont know. They supposedly killed and stole things from Pilgrims. They do have society and a court system though

They act like crows but they also will straight up kill you.

[distant briar]

yeah they definitely qualify

we forget the fanatics is willows whisp or whatever it’s called

heretics

[uncut holly]

Oh those guys yeah they are a cult untouched

The Father of the Flame is a bug that was deified from a wish to burn everything in flames. Its very VERY weird that his wish was granted. Its also strange that briefly the Snail Shamans say that Pharloom is a place of wishes granted

[distant briar]

yeah but they most likely mean the quests and not actual wishes

[distant briar]

I think that sums up all the civilizations in hallownest

[uncut holly]

Probably yeah, I do wonder what the specifics of the Pilgrimage of Pharloom entail, it could just be because of the lavish citadel.

[sharp plank]

I count Bellhart as part of the Citadel/Pharloom

[uncut holly]

Yeah Belhart was made by the Pilgrims

[quartz flicker]

Do you think there's a chance of Wisp Thicket getting expanded on in DLC?

[distant briar]

I did at first too but I put them in there for the sake that they aren’t on a pilgrimage and they settled down (the shellwood hunters live there actively)

[uncut holly]

I dunno maybe? The biggest plot hole is the Crabs, and then theres other stuff thats part of the timeline that hasnt been sorted out 100%

But the timeline probably exists we just havent sorted it. The crabs are unknown though

[distant briar]

I don’t think so for some reason

[wary plover]

Wait playing the mandolin calls the bellbeast why does it come to music noises

[sharp plank]

They aren't on pilgramage, true, but they're an outlying town/suburb. Still under the main Citadel government if not part of the city proper

[distant briar]

They aren’t governed by the citadel are they? The citadel doesn’t really care about them

[uncut holly]

Belhart and Bonebottom from what I know are just Pilgrim stops. The City of Belhart might have sprung up independently of the Pilgrims

They still live off of Pilgrim tourism

[spark valve]

Bellhart is a settlement of pilgrims who stopped and settled to provide aid for others (though the bell hermit thinks that’s in part because of fear)

[distant briar]

but only because their goal was the citadel at first doesn’t mean that they can’t be like an independent thing by now

[spark valve]

They’re not directly governed by the citadel or anything

[sharp plank]

The Seamstress has implied the Citadel can and will care if you get enough in their way. Its why she enjoys Hornet's visits but prefers she not stick around

[uncut holly]

Citadel seems to be very nervous of civilizations that arent their own and arent somehow related to propping them up. They killed everyone else after all

[sharp plank]

We know they used to have more active infastructure like the Bellways, and workers in Greymoor pre and post Haunting collect fallen Silk to be sent back.

[distant briar]

Yeah but Bellhart hardly poses any threat, the Seamstress probably is scared because she used to be a pinmaster

[uncut holly]

There probably is going to be a boss compendium DLC but id have no idea what it'd be. The Godseekers definitely arent coming back, they where drawn to the Pale King, question is how are we going to refight bosses

[quartz flicker]

Do you think any of the lore gives us clues as to what the DLC could contain?

[uncut holly]

Just crabs from it being the biggest unexplained plot hole

Also because crabs where cut mostly

[sharp plank]

When you talk to Tipp in Bellhart after rescuing him, he states he used to deliver to all kinds of places before the Haunting

[quartz flicker]

What plot hole?

[distant briar]

Probably someone who knows all a pharloom and experienced everything there and we can play needolin and invade his memories just like we did with the green prince

[uncut holly]

There was alot of stuff that was cut it could be. The Steel Assassins where cut, the poop man was cut. All presumeably because of pacing issues

We dont know how the Coral Caves dried up and killed all the crabs except one.

[distant briar]

I think they just kept all of that for the Dlc, there is no way they scraped the steel bugs enemy desgin

[uncut holly]

Sharpe is a backer thing, he is coming eventually and he definitely has lore with the City of Steel. We know a bit about the City of Steel but I dont know if we will ever actually go there

[quartz flicker]

I will say, that the visuals inside the Coral Tower were absolutely gorgeous. I would not be opposed to more of that.

[uncut holly]

If we look at the trailer we can see a coral area outside the tower presumeably that has one of the Steel Assasins chasing you in parkour area

[distant briar]

6 years ago 💀

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[distant briar]

wake up grandpa time for the meds

[uncut holly]

They cut Sharpe, Coral, and the poop man. All cause they probably sank progression or something

Also the Lion Village

They mentioned that a big problem with silk song was the amount of towns

[distant briar]

I would have loved more towns tbh

[kind imp]

damn. i would've loved a lot more of them

[uncut holly]

Bone Bottom, Poop Man Town, Bellhart, Lion Village, Songclave. They presumeably cut two of these towns out

[sharp plank]

Agreed I would have loved more towns

[distant briar]

whats lion village never heard of that

[kind imp]

probably should have been a town where the flea caravan stopped the first few times

the first stop became a refugee spot of some sorts in Act 3. good spot for a town

[sharp plank]

I love how lively Pharloom is, we don't get enough settings like that anymore

[distant briar]

the flea caravan travel mechanic must be one of the best ideas yet

[uncut holly]

Currently we have 3, Bone Bottom, Belhart, Songclave. Also the Lion Village was a backer village, the only backer village that was ever made actually. We know nothing about it, but when questioned Team Cherry said that "Theres lions."

Fleatopia is also one

Lion Village probably had Antlions

Dunno how Antlions would have interacted with the Ants

I imagine Hollow Knight antlions to look a little like the Antlion from Dont Starve Together.

[distant briar]

wthelly

[sharp plank]

That's not counting minor outposts like the Pilgrim's Rest and the Halfway House. I was shocked to find the aiming minigame where Grindle had been imprisoned (I was using the bench as run back for the last flintbeetle and had to come back after getting the first needle upgrade).

[limber condor]

Has anyone figured out if you can interact with the ||lifeblood corpse in the room hidden inside of the nest, you should find it after doing the alchemist quest if you're exploring|| really just trying to figure out if it is a thing or not.

[distant briar]

did you complete both?

[limber condor]

I'd like to know if I can actually interact other than just the song

[uncut holly]

You can play the needolin for it and you can hear their thoughts and hopes that life blood would save the kingdom

Oh in Act 3 Lifeblood possesses it

It is a boss.

[limber condor]

Oh, ok!! I thought so man. Cuz you can like overflow your shell and make the lifeblood like part of you? It's weird to watch yourself explode 😂

[uncut holly]

Wait you can explode? I knew you could change all your hearts until you sat at a bench

Didnt know you exploded

[sharp plank]

Not yet. I'm actually not finished with Act 1, I'm just spoiled. It'd be faster going if pogo'ing didn't cause my hands to cramp. I have very small hands but even with the smallest controller I have... gah...

[limber condor]

If you get too many of the hearts it overtakes your shell and you go back down in health but the blood regenerates after like a big white explosion overcomes you. ||Then you have blue masks just like the blessing in the HK||

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah i see

[distant briar]

hell no why are you here if you haven‘t finished act 1😭

[limber condor]

Certain Crest helped make the discovery because I was really trying to push this thing. I've been investigating it every time I've been slaying big bosses to try and revive it

Appreciate your help Jeep 🤘

[pastel cradle]

why is the area called ||sinner's road||? it looks more like a ||roachmeat ranch|| more than anything, and the dialogues line up. actual ||sinners|| are brought to ... ||the slab||.

[limber condor]

Good question|| I always thought it looked like a twisted ranch||

[sharp plank]

To spare myself grief and talk a little! To put it very simply, it's nearly impossible for me to find decent conversation. Also, lore and meta analysis are one of my passions.

In practice, lots of little stuff gets lost in text, and there's no substitute for in person experience. I knew Haunted Bellhart was coming but it was still creepy as hell and I took multiple screenshots.

[dim grotto]

what could this be in ||whiteward||

[distant briar]

ah I get it but try to play it without spoilers next time trust me

[terse warren]

Silk Heart number 3 is there before you defeat the Boss to take it

[sharp plank]

I kinda soured on playing without at least some spoilers after an MMO I played for years basically traumatized me with its story. (FFXIV if you're wondering). Turns out, having a story you've been deeply invested in suddenly hit your deepest anxiety buttons does a number on ya. I went from playing nearly every day to dropping it completely.

The kicker is people started giving out mental health warnings. I had been completely dark so I only found out after.

[dim grotto]

before i defeat the boss?

[terse warren]

Yeah?

The big Conductor in the pit

He gives you the Silk Heart, that's where it's stored I'm pretty sure

[dim grotto]

i think its after i defeat it

because i havent defeated it yet

[next sable]

It’s after

You defeat the boss, then get the heart

In fact, the heart appears directly in the boss room, so I have no idea what Aubergine is talking about

[limpid summit]

Yeah the Unraveled gives you the heart right

Ig it’s the threads possessing a conductor corpse

[terse warren]

Weird, I remember that capsule having something in it before you get the heart and not having anything after

Anyways I know for sure there was something inside that thing before that goes away because of something. Not sure what the something is though

[gloomy path]

so apparently gods/higher beings can be felled or contained within void, so why was the temple of the black egg so close to the surface instead of like submerged in void instead of being so open that the infection spread out of the damned thing

they could have made the temple have a diving bell type of construction that once the dreamers and the knight was set up it was dipped

[terse warren]

#hk-lore seems like a more like a better place for this

Anyways it's because Radiance isn't a physical being

[broken fern]

did the ||snail shamans|| die after absorbing the ||everbloom?||

[next sable]

(But also, it’s probably because PK wanted the Egg to be a place of worship)

[gloomy path]

yeah but the infectionwas leaking out of the hollow knight

it literally was breaking out of his shell

[terse warren]

Yes they died after manifesting the everbloom it seems

[terse warren]

Well that kinda wasn't the plan lol

They didn't expect THK to not be Hollow

But it wasn't

[gloomy path]

well when the infection returned the king just wussed up and stopped anymore countermeasures i guess

[terse warren]

And again, the infection spreads through dreams

Not in a physical way

If THK died in the Void Rad would've likely been freed which would've allowed her to propagate further

[spark valve]

Yup

[gloomy path]

if freed the void will eat him up or struggle a bit but will survive, i think

[spark valve]

She’s not physical she would just be free and safe

[next sable]

Rad doesn’t exist physically. Don’t know how the void is supposed to reach without dream nail help

[terse warren]

THK would absolutely get killed by the Void

The only reason the Void doesn't kill us is because we have Void Heart

And if you don't have Void Heart, the Void Tendrils try to kill you

[blissful canyon]

damn bro did the ||last judge|| really have to kill those 2 guys ||infront of the citadel gates?||

[next sable]

They weren’t worthy

Whatever that means

[terse warren]

It's almost as if the Judge was trying to stop anyone who wasn't worthy from entering the Citadel

[blissful canyon]

they did reach that place though

doesn't that automatically make you worthy enough?

[gloomy path]

ah, i meant radiance, i was wondering what would have happened if thk shell actually fully broke, will radiance get a physical form? or would he have just exploded to orange infection

[nova sluice]

Quick question. Why were the citadel kidnapping bugs to make robots?

[terse warren]

Yeah and? The Judge is the last trial they have to beat

[terse warren]

??

[blissful canyon]

so ANYONE who cant beat that guy cant pass the gates?

[next sable]

If you mean clockwork dancers, it was basically a bid for peace that backfired

They’re the only example we know of though

[blissful canyon]

wait so if someone kills him lets say, does he respawn...?

[terse warren]

Radiance CAN'T have a physical form, she exists in her own Dream Realm, if freed she'd just not be restrained anymore

[next sable]

No one has killed him, they just run past or find a different route

[blissful canyon]

there's a different route?

[next sable]

It’s worth mentioning that the places Hornet can go is by no means the only path forward

[nova sluice]

Not only, but also the memorium and the tanks with bugs inside that served as models for the robots

[terse warren]

Although even then Judges do seem to grow from Squirrms so even then the Citadel could make a new one

[terse warren]

I think they were just using those as reference

[blissful canyon]

that makes sense

one guy who I want to pass those gates is the gambling guy 🎰 🤑

[chilly galleon]

If hornet is trying to reach the citadel to find out why she was captured, why did she break free in the first place instead of just going with them and finding out there?

[nova sluice]

Ye but doesnt seem voluntary

[terse warren]

Btw considering how recent the haunting is I find it unlikely that the Judge always just killed people, it might've been an actual sort of trial before

[spark valve]

One she didn’t seem to choose to, but also being brought in a cage sealing you is very different from having control of the circumstances and being able to show up ready for a fight

[next sable]

I mean, it’s a bit hard to think logically when you’re captured and sealed for god knows how long. She probably just wanted to get out of the cage

[nova sluice]

You don't wanna invade a city from inside a prison full of guards while you are weak and unarmed

[terse warren]

?? If you're just talking about the Memorium in general, it's just a zoo

[sinful nimbus]

Zoos aren't voluntary

[blissful canyon]

does anyone know what happens to the gambling guy in ||blasted steps?😭||

[terse warren]

You don't know that, maybe they asked the moss grubs

[sinful nimbus]

I never did get to gamble with him 😔

[gloomy path]

was her being weak even part of the rune thing or just gameplay shit, guess she forgot she can set traps and do wild swings with her silk

[sinful nimbus]

Its the rune thing

[blissful canyon]

I didn't get a profit nor did I get a loss after like 100 tries, guess its 50/50 after all

[next sable]

It was part of the seal. She literally says as much

[terse warren]

Also I said it was just a Zoo as in they weren't using the bugs to make robots

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet has a piece of dialogue about how the seal on the cage temporarily weakened her

[gloomy path]

temporarily is kinda funny, so 2 mask damage

[sinful nimbus]

yeah

[nova sluice]

IRS got him
|| we don't know but the thief sells his goods after so either ran away and left his lucky dice behind (unlikely) or died right there ||

[terse warren]

Yes we do know lol

He's dead

[blissful canyon]

😔

[terse warren]

You can find his corpse in Act 2 where you usually gamble with him

[gloomy path]

like the bastards who made me fetch roach guts

[terse warren]

And get the Dice for free

[blissful canyon]

I feel bad for the dude, couldve just went up a few blocks to the gates and live a good life

[sinful nimbus]

Anyone who sells carefree melody knockoffs deserves to die anyway

[terse warren]

No he would've just died

[blissful canyon]

before I continue I have to beat last judge 💔

[blissful canyon]

dont spoil it

[terse warren]

Maybe reached Songclave

[next sable]

It’s literally the same as carefree melody though, no? It just feels worse because it takes less hits for us to die

[terse warren]

Why are you in the lore channel

[nova sluice]

You can do it 🔥

[sinful nimbus]

is gambling a sin

[spark valve]

Aren’t the dice a fixed chance

[blissful canyon]

for some itty bits of lore while I progress :DD

[gloomy path]

bruh

[terse warren]

Yeah but this is a channel full of spoilers

We talk about True Ending on the regular here and no one is going to spoiler tag it

[tidal trellis]

that is really not a good idea

[blissful canyon]

meh I dont know the names anyways

[sinful nimbus]

Its sharing your devotion with someone else so surely gambling isn't a sin

[spark valve]

In case the expectations weren’t clear they probably are now, being in this channel is an implicit consent to spoilers

[blissful canyon]

nor do I have an idea of what they're talking about

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe LJ would've been chill with Mr. Gambler

[tidal trellis]

of course there are discord servers for each genshin characters 😭 sorry for the off topic

[next sable]

Get out of here before people start discussing endings. They are very much spoiler heavy

[spark valve]

Surely LJ seems very chill the judges prob let most bugs through

[sinful nimbus]

what do you guys think of the elderbug ending

[terse warren]

It's not a sin because the citadel wants you to lose and give them all your money

[gloomy path]

what

[inland harness]

lmao

[terse warren]

Absolutely fire, can't believe Hornet really was made of Void after all

[nova sluice]

The secret ending where Hornet ||goes to Hawaii and live a good life||

[spark valve]

The cord for the trapdoor over your head holding back a dozen boulders lookin real tempting rn

[inland harness]

damn you spoiled me :((

[blissful canyon]

guys I got a question, why do pilgirms want to reach the citadel? all the dialogues havent really cleared this up for me

[nova sluice]

To be fair it was on the original trailer 12 years ago

[spark valve]

By reaching, they can join its ranks

[terse warren]

It's a spoiler. Stop being here.

[uncut holly]

Technically there would be a 5th ending, if you got the true ending in Act 3 but didnt get rid of the parasite, Hornet presumeably dies at some point in the future

[jovial nexus]

who designed (ACT 3 BOSS) ||Crust King Khan||, with backer credits on there was a name underneath that was attributed to him

[terse warren]

Is this wrong on purpose or

[spark valve]

You have to get rid of the parasite

[terse warren]

[spark valve]

It’s true, a bunch of the citadel enemies are pilgrims who joined

[blissful canyon]

not that major right? is it just because under the citadel life is harsh and in the citadel they live like kings or something?

[inland harness]

ah damn, i shouldve watched more then, i thoought she died in the back streets of london

[terse warren]

No, go play the game

[blissful canyon]

after I beat this dude blocking me from even entering the place 😭

[gloomy path]

blud focus on the judge

[blissful canyon]

im watching a tutorial

[terse warren]

||It's true by technicality, pilgrims want to reach the Citadel because GMS is using the silk in their DNA to lure them there ||

[tidal trellis]

@blissful canyon I really understand your desire to know more, I do, and I know just asking people about stuff is the easier option, but at least play through the game main content first. It is worth it believe me

[nova sluice]

God knows what would happens if the parasite ||gets mixed with Void at the end||

[terse warren]

Hornet says Nuh uh

You can't do true final boss with parasite

[spark valve]

The pilgrimage probably predates the haunting actually

[inland harness]

damn bro

[blissful canyon]

Ill take your word for it and not open this channel again until I complete it (unless Im really curious about something ofc)

[gloomy path]

who even gets tentacled at the true ending with parasite 😳

[terse warren]

Hornet and Caretaker say it explicitly in a dialogue though

[spark valve]

Do you have it on hand

[nova sluice]

Come in, ask very specific questions, read, run away

[tidal trellis]

Even if you are really curious about something just wait till you finish the main story, shouldnt be more than a few days

[terse warren]

I can try to find it but nope

Does wiki have dialogues so far?

[spark valve]

Not yet

If I wasn’t on mobile I could seek it out but I am

[next sable]

I’m pretty sure even with the dialogue, the pilgrimage happened before the haunting

[spark valve]

Probably

[terse warren]

Let me try to find it

[next sable]

The dialogue is something along the lines of how Whiteward did experiments with Silk to gain immortality and that’s why the haunting is so widespread

[tidal trellis]

Was Grand mother silk's motive for what she did to weavers etc just plain ol' power thirst? or was it more nuanced like the pale king

[spark valve]

There’s also a mural entry about how a haunted pilgrim can only grovel and pray

Journal entry

[dire flame]

Both Phantom and Lace seem to be silk based lifeforms, and phantom fight style is pretty similar to Lace's fight style, is it possible that Phantom taught Lace fencing?

[tidal trellis]

How long go you guys give it for mossbag to release his first lore video

[gloomy path]

i think she experimented a bit as higher beings do, but they turned unruly and sought a pure silk being, but that kinda turned rebellious too

was lace even in league with the caste, she was just enjoying the kingdom with her mom eepy

[next sable]

I’m pretty sure Lace was made after the Weavers left

[spark valve]

Probably not

[dire flame]

I've always assumed Grand mother silk was the one that created Lace since Hornet mentions that Silk based life is very fragile and that only has saw tiny, simple beings being made of silk

[next sable]

Overbearing mommy issues. Silk wanted loyal daughters in the Weaver and got mad they didn’t like her

[nova sluice]

Hopefully Lace doesn't need future maintenance that only GMS could give

[next sable]

Obviously, a very reductive statement, but that’s the gist of it

[tidal trellis]

So then she went kinda mad and did all those things, including maiming widow

[next sable]

We don’t know who did that to Widow

[sinful nimbus]

My guess is the citadel

[next sable]

It could have been the Weavers going after a traitor to their kind

[tidal trellis]

who would it be except her

[gloomy path]

i think the true ending set up that lace and hornet become partners, with hornet renewing lace's life in a way, life support style

[dire flame]

Phantom according to the Journal seems of great age, whether she was mantained by GMS I don't know

[sinful nimbus]

Citadel who were very antagonistic to weavers

[tidal trellis]

Doubt it, how would they even get their hands on her

[spark valve]

The citadel probably would’ve just killed her tbf

[nova sluice]

Ye, that's the thing, we don't know their needs. Maybe Hornet could learn and help as a weaver, hopefully

[next sable]

Uh… what’s the issue there, actually. They live together and are the same species, so they could have done it before they left

[tidal trellis]

Ok then theres something I dont understand, Citadel and Grand mother aren't as aligned as I thought?

[sinful nimbus]

They weren't in the past

[next sable]

Until GMS did her entire mind control thing

[spark valve]

Citadel was keeping gms asleep

[next sable]

In which case, they’re not really working together and more like the Citadel is a puppet

[sinful nimbus]

The citadel was built to cage GMS by the weavers, then it was taken over by the conductors, then they started implanting silk into bugs for immortality and the whole haunting eventually started

[spark valve]

They also worshipped her, implied they don’t actually know what she is though

[sinful nimbus]

Giving GMS control again

[spark valve]

They just took over from weavers and kept the music playing

[terse warren]

ok so i did find the dialogue i was thinking of but it doesn't say outright that people do the pilgrimage because of the silk in them. it does however say that the pilgrims are "Bound to the system of this world" due to the silk inside them, hornet also says "No wonder those pilgrims proved such easy prey for that cursed thread, it had only to seek itself to reach them" right before that

[tidal trellis]

ooh okay I missed a large part of the picture then

[spark valve]

Well either way it seems like the pilgrimage isn’t just gms’s mind control

[nova sluice]

I was going to ask if we know when GMS arrived but seems like in fact she was there since before the citadel

[tidal trellis]

but how was it taken over from Weavers, without the implication of a higher being

[spark valve]

Stabbing

[gloomy path]

how did gms even pull off the haunting, was it dream shenanigans?

[tidal trellis]

no regular bug is stronger than weavers though no?

[terse warren]

i do feel like a big part of it right now is though

https://youtu.be/OdQbHDYM7g8?si=L03SRvhFngchgRU5&t=85 also here's source if you wanna check for yourself, the video starts at the dialogue convo i was thinking of

[spark valve]

Sure they are, plus get a whole bunch of em zamn weavers don’t have a chance

[spark valve]

Eh I’m not sure about that, the haunting is pretty recent and a lot of the pilgrim npcs we talk about who are on pilgrimages aren’t haunted

[tidal trellis]

Damn, cuz weavers seemed to me the closest a regular bug could get to a higher being

[next sable]

You’re right, but they’re also very mortal

[tidal trellis]

Yeah ofc, even gods are

[terse warren]

regular bug is quite a big word for someone that evolved through getting a silk transfusion from GMS herself

they're not higher beings but they definitely aren't "regular"

[tidal trellis]

ok thats something else I missed then, Weavers got their powers from GMS? I thought they just shared it

[tidal trellis]

thats what i was picturing

[terse warren]

watch first sinner cutscene

[gloomy path]

weavers got forcefully evolved from small ass spiders

[inland harness]

apostles kinda?

[empty sierra]

thats another thing actually how would the pilgrims outside of citadel have silk in them? its not like they experimented on the entirety of pharloom right

[terse warren]

https://youtu.be/mcod4lkwLIA?si=8sqTwt_vrUZWQ7BW&t=419

[tidal trellis]

side note, the First Sinner was the first weaver who rebelled against GMS ?

[terse warren]

they are descendants of people whohad silk in them

[empty sierra]

ooh interestingg, its inherited

[terse warren]

morethan rebelled seems to be about speaking out

[next sable]

Something to note about the whole stabbing thing. Weavers don’t have great long range options judging from the silk skills we get. It’s not unlikely that the Citadel was taken over because it was the equivalent of swords and spears vs. guns

[tidal trellis]

When I saw this I wasn't sure to understand it but, oh boy this sht is twisted

[empty sierra]

is that mentioned anywhere or just bc it makes sense

[terse warren]

First Sinner is mad about a "lie" that GMS told the Weavers, and then she got imprisoned (not bygms)

[empty sierra]

what lie

[terse warren]

https://youtu.be/OdQbHDYM7g8?si=L03SRvhFngchgRU5&t=85

[inland harness]

rosary cannon moment

[terse warren]

3 possibilities

1. They weren't divine
2. GMS didn't consider them daughters
3. GMS didn't tell them they weren't actually her daughters but just modified bugs

[tidal trellis]

huh, pale nails?

[empty sierra]

aahh now i remember yeah

[next sable]

You can have the sharpest sword and still get killed by a gun

[tidal trellis]

no but pale nails are a gun

also silkspear?

the weaver version is a fking railgun

[terse warren]

The Citadel didn't get taken over forcefully

They literally worshipped Weavers

[gloomy path]

lol silkshot exist that shit was a actual railgun

[terse warren]

The Weavers just left because Pharloom had "weak foundations" or something like that

[tidal trellis]

yes silkshot i meant

[terse warren]

Yeah and it was weaver tech

[tidal trellis]

so if one was to make a brief tl dr: GMS exists, we dont know where from just pale being BS, go takes over a existing kingdom by destroying its current leaders, creates weavers, weavers rebel, put her to sleep, leave, leading to game events

[next sable]

Oh true. Weavers probably abandoned the entire civilization and other people just picked up the remains and ran with it

[next sable]

It’s possible GMS was always there and people just settled for reasons

[tidal trellis]

but the problem is that we know weavers wanted to reclaim pharloom from what they say to hornet when getting inheritance

[gloomy path]

did we ever find out who was the true true ruler of pharloom and the citadel?

[tidal trellis]

yeah also

[next sable]

Well yeah, because they literally left?

Like, reclaim something you lost because you left it behind

[tidal trellis]

But why would they leave just because they basically dont like it just to come back

[next sable]

They never did

Hornet was just around and they were like “Oh cool, a descendant, let’s bless them”

[tidal trellis]

why would they want her to reclaim the kingdom

just to fix their errors type of thing?

[terse warren]

not exactly? im not sure what happened but i dont think gms destroyed the past rulers of the kingdom

[terse warren]

no they didn't

[tidal trellis]

not destroyed but overpowered. Crust king, karmelitta etc

[next sable]

They died out beforehand

[nova sluice]

We know that at least some weavers tried to come back to Pharloom at some point.
Assuming "old home" is Pharloom

[terse warren]

what they were telling hornet is "they will come for you. you will defeat them so that they stop coming for us"

[tidal trellis]

how

[tidal trellis]

yeah makes sense

also did GMS send for hornet to get a daughter or as continued vengeance on weavers

[terse warren]

we also know Silksong retconned so many things so this might just be false

[terse warren]

GMS sent bugs to capture Weavers because she needed more silk to sustain Lace

[tidal trellis]

oh sht intersting, where do we learn that?

[next sable]

Karak ran out of water, Karmelitta lost her voice, and Nyleth kind of just… died

[terse warren]

Lace journal entry says "A lot of Silk would've been needed to sustain this lifeform"

And Lace seems to be the thing that GMS holds most dear

[tidal trellis]

Also doesnt that mean she will die out, unless Hornet somehows produces enough silk

[terse warren]

It's probable that when she evolved Weavers she had to decrease her silk output and now wants them back to produce more

[boreal veldt]

Erm for that ending into act 3 did hornet know the abyss thing would have happened when helping the shamans, I thought hornet would be smart enough not to mess with it after all the shit that happened in Hallownest

[gloomy path]

hornet was tricked

[tidal trellis]

she did not know there would be implication with the Void

[next sable]

Hornet was pissed lmao

[plush bridge]

They knew it was a trap, but not that the Void would be involved.

[tidal trellis]

but yes youre right she couldve guessed tbh

[terse warren]

Lace got a big Silk infusion from GMS at the end of TE and also Hornet can produce a lot of Silk due to her heritage, also due to her heritage we know her silk is practically the same as GMS so they should be fine

[gloomy path]

hornet was so mad you can just repeatedly bash their shells in the temple if you wanted to

[terse warren]

She could've yeah

Caretaker: "You should know of the obsession my family has with the Void"

[tidal trellis]

that also means they will have to be together forever awww

sesbian lex as primacon says

[next sable]

I mean, I didn’t think they were snails at first, so it’s probable that Hornet didn’t either

[tidal trellis]

she did know their nature

[terse warren]

but also the Shamans weren't trying to trick Hornet, they legit thought the snare would work

[terse warren]

she explicitly says she does know

[plush bridge]

Well, no, Hornet knew to some extent, they comment on the Caretaker's 'disguise'.

[next sable]

Ah, RIP

[spark valve]

If it wasn’t for circumstances outside their knowledge or control it would have

[gloomy path]

we got another bubbline with hornet and lace, winwin

[tidal trellis]

wouldve worked if gms didnt successfully grab hornet

[next sable]

mmm, at the same time though, it’s a slight retcon because Shaman in first game said that they didn’t really deal with void and that the void spells came from within TK themselves

[terse warren]

Would've worked if Lace didn't fall into the abyss with gms

[next sable]

Their wheelhouse is soul rather than actual void

[spark valve]

Well that part about how the void spells work is still true

[tidal trellis]

didn't snails worship the void?

[tidal trellis]

which is a consequence of what I said but yes

[plush bridge]

It was never really mentioned before, but speculation on them being connected was rampant, which is confirmed now.

[spark valve]

SS maintains the trait shamans have of their bodies getting destroyed when using vast amounts of soul

[tidal trellis]

also after the Mr Mushroom ending it says clearly insert jojo guitar riff TO BE CONTINUED, is that just related to DLC or another game following events of both HK?

[boreal veldt]

Also questions about that one cursed ending, what exactly happens, pavo says many who had the baby went to shellwood and never returned so we can assume that greyroot was using them to be reborn? I guess… then when u defeat GMS… what happens.. all I know something gets born and it dosent look nice

[gloomy path]

its the same with the og mushroom ending

[tidal trellis]

and we did get a continuation soo

[gloomy path]

maybe in the next decade

[tidal trellis]

century

[noble gyro]

Hollow Knight: Lace in 10 years

[modest ermine]

Both prolly. I highly doubt TC is gonna stop considering they said they had so much fun making this game

[gloomy path]

they have to announce it as a small dlc first

[tidal trellis]

God I hope not, a new storyline around lace doesnt interest me

[tidal trellis]

then one day say "Hey gang..."

[modest ermine]

Same... She's like literally a kid bruh annoying imo

[wary plover]

LAST OF THEIR LINE...

Omg so that's why

[gloomy path]

i want the next game to be about the real hollow knight, if embrace the void or similar is canon

[tidal trellis]

you mean the lord of shades then

[wary plover]

A million choristers and envoys lost to service of my rosary farming

[gloomy path]

oh should thk be called fake hollow knight

[tidal trellis]

we call him just the knight

[terse warren]

none of them are hollow

[tidal trellis]

well we dont know

the knight might be hollow

unlikely true, but not certain

[terse warren]

the knight literally saves hornet because it's their sister

none of them are hollow

[modest ermine]

We just say Knight for the HK playable character. Hollow Knight is the HK. And shade lord is the post embrace the void thing

[gloomy path]

so hollow knight as playable character next game

missing arm and all

[tidal trellis]

thats only possibly the case in the DLC ending

every other ending the hk dies or disappears kinda

[gloomy path]

the other ending has the hollow knight help beat radiance's ass as a void shade

[modest ermine]

Definitely not fully hollow. That's why we get the memory when getting the void charm. But once it merges with the void fully, the void is truly "hollow" and it just gives it shape.

[terse warren]

the void is not truly hollow

[tidal trellis]

yes yes I agree one person destroying my point was enough 😭

[terse warren]

it's clear the void itself has the capacity for emotion

and for thought

[slender glacier]

quick question, do we know who helped hornet escape?

[terse warren]

it literally chooses to be tendrils

[tidal trellis]

that gets more clears when the void gets involved with other beings

[tidal trellis]

its the knight

[modest ermine]

That's only the knight giving the void form. The void literally attacks everything until Knight/shade lord shows up and goes "nah it's chill"

[terse warren]

It was a bug. Not necessarily anyone. Maybe just maybe it was Lace but I don't think that theory holds any water.

[gloomy path]

apparently, lace did the whole butterfly dispelling the rune last i saw being discussed

[slender glacier]

no not from the true ending, but from the beginning of the game

[terse warren]

yeah the fact that the void is doing anything at all is proof that it is not hollow

[tidal trellis]

escape from the cage?

[terse warren]

#sk-lore message

[golden olive]

i think it HAS to be lace.

[terse warren]

by bug i mean one of the flies

[tidal trellis]

couldve been by accident

[golden olive]

there's no other bug associated with the moth things afaik

[terse warren]

Lace wants to kill Hornet. Lace would've been smart enough to wait until Hornet was close by so she could've killed her while she was still weakened

[modest ermine]

It's literally just after soul. Like an instinctual response not like there's any reasoning behind it

[terse warren]

if it was hollow it wouldn't have any insticts either though

also "the barbed form it CHOOSES"

"CHOOSES"

[golden olive]

yesterday i saw somebody say that lace was trying to prevent hornet from reaching the citadel because she was afraid that GMS cares more about hornet than herself

the fall did almost kill hornet to be fair, and left her in a super weakened state

[tidal trellis]

I really want the next game to go deep on the principles themselves of the world, on void, on soul and maybe even on the birth of existence]

[boreal veldt]

Why did widow get done like that though, hornet says she had her masked forcefully ripped off and her own silk made useless by the pins??? Why?

[terse warren]

the cage is what weakened hornet, more so than the fall

[golden olive]

mm true

[terse warren]

Lace wants to deny GMS the opportunity to consume Hornet, and she's ok with killing hornet if it brings to that, so realistically lace would've waited

[modest ermine]

The butterfly things are little silk being I think. Hornet says at some point that Lace is impressive because she's only seen silk woven into small simple forms. And the main area we see these butterflies is in the mist, which is created by Phantom, another pure silk being.

[gloomy path]

widow really got cooked hard it beat the solitary confinement that first sinner got done in

[tidal trellis]

btw I wasnt ready for GMS to be so fine

[golden olive]

that holds a lot of merit

[boreal veldt]

Basically tortured widow 😔

[golden olive]

i dont think phantom created the butterflies in the mist tho

cuz she also made the wraiths if im not mistaken

[terse warren]

Not sure what exactly is going on with Widow, she might've been a captured Weaver tortured into submission, might've been something else

[wary plover]

Wait so lace killed people in the citadel because she misunderstood silk?

[boreal veldt]

True, but if GMS wanted silk I have no idea why she would do that, so who knows

Or it wasn’t her probably

[terse warren]

yeah idk either

[tidal trellis]

kinda just to keep order in the citadel in her own way

[golden olive]

i dont think GMS did that to widow, it was probably the citadel

[terse warren]

we actually don't know where the mist comes from so that's not confirmed

[modest ermine]

It stops when the organ stops 🤷‍♂️

[slender glacier]

isnt the mist from the exhaust organ

[blissful harbor]

her entry says she’s a weaver, her silk is locked in place and her mask was removed
seems like she’s being forced to tend to gms’s haunting

[terse warren]

probably but that isn't confirmed outright

[golden olive]

we don't really know if it came from the organ or phantom herself tho

[gloomy path]

why did the organ generate a maze with ghosts bruh

[golden olive]

imma look at the needolin dialogue for the wraiths rq

[modest ermine]

Occams razor

[blissful harbor]

also wdym not confirmed, we see phantom making the mist with her organ

[terse warren]

yeah but it still doesn't explain why GMS would lock widow's silk rather than take it for herself

[tidal trellis]

so widow helps her control the population

[runic musk]

Phantom made the Mist by playing their instrument the mist even vanishes when you defeat them i believe

[blissful harbor]

extra pair of hands

[spark valve]

It sort of depends on how you interpret lace abyss dialogue but she implies that not killing hornet is a way of denying gms silk

[golden olive]

ok so im pretty sure phantom made the wraiths

"Not a bug but a projection of another's will cast in smog and Silk."

gotta be phantom right? unless its referring to the organ as "another"

[spark valve]

Killing hornet and gaining her silk may not be mutually exclusive

[tidal trellis]

which is kinda a way for her to kill herself also

[spark valve]

Seems that way, they even have similar hair

[spark valve]

If that’s what gms wants the silk for, yes

[terse warren]

I think the Hollow Knight series has proven many times you can't really rely on Occam's razor

that's not to say i don't think it's the mist from the organ but still

[modest ermine]

Definitely phantom, the "smog" is important. Phantom's silk is gray

[boreal veldt]

Why would the citadel do that?

[golden olive]

if phantom made the wraiths then i dont think there's a possibility she made the butterflies in the mist too

[terse warren]

then why does she try to kill hornet in the fights

[terse warren]

it's gray because of age actually

[gloomy path]

citadel does a whole lot of bs, like when you get utterly captured and lose everything why didn't they just sent you straight up to gms instead of a hanging cage bird... like, they won.

[spark valve]

Putting up a good show of things, she clearly stops fighting early in the second fight so she can play dead. Could be that if hornet was too weak to do those fights there’s not much point in it anyways, since she’s clearly waiting for hornet to reach the cradle and face gms

[tidal trellis]

i dont think the slab guys were under gms

[terse warren]

mhhh, still, the theory of lace being the one to free hornet is not exactly the best to me

[gloomy path]

the slab isn't part of the caste? uuuhhh, im cooked

[golden olive]

punishment for something im guessing? like uhhhh idk what the citadels all about, they're still foggy in my head

[spark valve]

Or maybe she’s just talking about slashing gms’s arm off, but in that case she’s not really denying her hornet’s silk since she’s uber dead either way

[modest ermine]

Well phantom wanted death in battle. I get what you're saying though. It could be Lace that made them. Main point is that the butterflies are silk beings tho

[spark valve]

Why not?

[plush bridge]

The question is who else would it be, though? Especially since she's the only other character we see interacting with those little flies.

[terse warren]

feels like it's a bit too loose, not enough evidence

[slender glacier]

I agree, she seems to only rebel once we defeat her at the cradle

[tidal trellis]

closely linked but yk stuff fell appart

[terse warren]

we also see those flies in the mist, clearly Phantom is the one that freed us

[spark valve]

Well we know her goal is to one way or the other obstruct gms from getting hornet’s silk, I agree it’s not the best substantiated but it does line ip

[golden olive]

actually i suppose its possibile that she made both the wraiths and the butterflies so somebody (a weaver) could kill her and go on to stop GMS or something duuuuude idk phantom's motivations are completely unclear

[spark valve]

She also knows about the fall

[terse warren]

that she does

knowing team cherry they will probably canonize this theory tbh but im still not a fan till it's confired

[golden olive]

hornet binded phantom after killing her right?

[sinful nimbus]

?tag info jokerpsa

[gleaming basin]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgzlVc4LM4J6_DfuscZ4AaABCQ

No ending stops Hornet from being captured, and the ability to break seals with bugs from Pharloom makes Hornet being locked in the Black Egg not an issue. Dreamers also don’t die when sealed, we simply didn’t have the means to remove them without killing them.

[modest ermine]

Lace is not a logical character. Most of her actions in game contradict each other and she swings from hating hornet, to helping hornet, to hating hornet and everything else, to being chill again. It's not impossible she freed hornet on a whim

[sinful nimbus]

It still exists thank god

[golden olive]

i dont think any other theory holds enough merit

[terse warren]

imo it should be changed to explain that both DnM and EtV are possible but Joker actually thinks it's just EtV

[uncut holly]

I am pretty sure Lace is literally a psychotic child. She is jealous of Hornet just because her mother is interested in Hornet, not caring about the why. She kills her mother just out of jealousy

[spark valve]

rare joker L

[uncut holly]

She wanted to stop them from getting Hornet and getting the satisfaction of taking Hornet down with them

[sinful nimbus]

imo we should keep saying all endings are canon because that's more satisfying

[uncut holly]

They seem to hate their mother, and also blame them for their own existence.

[sinful nimbus]

While we're at it blacklist the words "abyss" and "void"

[spark valve]

we must accept things as they are, not as we want them to be

[golden olive]

i hate that statement 😭 absolute worst way for TC to cover their own ass

[sinful nimbus]

That statement was good

[terse warren]

another victim of the ragebaiter

[golden olive]

and then "nothing we say is canon" WHAT

[sinful nimbus]

There was no reason to change it

I'm not ragebaiting this time

[modest ermine]

I don't think the dreamer seal is breakable... We only see a seal made of silk broken in the game. 🤷‍♂️

[sinful nimbus]

There's no reason to canonizing DNM/ETV

[blissful harbor]

yes there is
making DnM the canon ending (etv doesn’t exist) was the right move

[sinful nimbus]

Why

[golden olive]

it's not BAD neceessarily i just think its annoying, i would've preferred for them to leave it at "we don't know"

[blissful harbor]

it was the actual ending to the story, makes the most sense

[terse warren]

i do agree it should've been every ending is canon still BUT the hype moments and aura WERE kinda worth it

[spark valve]

dnm already was the true ending in every sense but 'exclusively canonical'

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong should've been its own story so in the ideal world this would be irrelevant

[blissful harbor]

true, i agree there

[uncut holly]

I dont think its too bad if they change some things for the later story, as long as it doesnt hurt the core of Hollow Knight. Im pretty sure the main things changed where Snail Shamans, and Weavers. They added onto Lifeblood but the stuff there was already lightly implied but not expanded upon.

Dreams are not present to speak of what so ever in Pharloom

[terse warren]

Void being in silksong is both the most hype and most disappointing thing of the game

[sinful nimbus]

SS does retroactively make HK worse

[uncut holly]

How so?

[spark valve]

not substantially

[terse warren]

wasn't really implied at all though quite the opposite

[sinful nimbus]

Wingsmould entry paints a complete mischaracterization of PK

[tidal trellis]

Idc I was just so happy to see the knight

[golden olive]

also what made you think lace's actions were out of jealousy? i saw it as lace despising her own life and "saving" hornet

[uncut holly]

Well we know Lifeblood was taboo, we didnt know why.

[spark valve]

she seems to just be wrong about that idk

[terse warren]

we didn't see any mutations despite it being everywhere for a long time

[sinful nimbus]

Which is bad

[spark valve]

it is bad

but it doesn't really change hk

[terse warren]

tbh hornet isn't necessarily always right but that's not a good thing

[uncut holly]

Well that could be explained with the Alchemist and his attempts to make himself into a Lifeblood source.

[terse warren]

yeah but PK slander in my Silksong is unacceptable

[spark valve]

hornet is coping

[blissful harbor]

we knew a lot of it could transfigure your vital fluids, which doesn’t sound like the most healthy
but i agree, the direction lifeblood went was kinda crazy

[uncut holly]

We know Josi was related to Lifeblood but we never had any experiments with it in Hollow Knight

[golden olive]

all of HK is PK slander bruh

[sinful nimbus]

If the writers are trying to retroactively change how a character is perceived in a negative way that is worsening the first game

[blissful harbor]

but also like i kinda get it, parallels between it and the infection existed, even if very small

[uncut holly]

There also was "Pure Plasmium" which never was even mentioned in Hollow Knight, it was all just Lifeblood

[spark valve]

alternatively: they were always shit at writing and the existing robust characterization of pk is entirely unintended

[terse warren]

if you only look surface level maybe but if you do a deep dive you realize the guy was right

[sinful nimbus]

Wouldn't doubt it

[terse warren]

im gonna be honest i think this might just be half true

[uncut holly]

Whats the wingsmould entry?

[terse warren]

"Only a fool would think the Void to be able to be controlled" except that PK controlled it pretty damn well

[spark valve]

it's not like the first game didn't have some sloppiness, though that mostly comes in with etv

[gloomy path]

something something void

[modest ermine]

I don't really think anything has majorly contradicted at all. We barely knew anything about any of those 3 topics so whatever "retcon" you think they did, it's more likely your headcanon being wrong

[blissful harbor]

hornet calls it a crude construct, and says that void cant be contained
which, like she’s wrong, but also, she’s biased

[spark valve]

yeah but like
she should've seen kingsmoulds

[sinful nimbus]

Calls PK stupid for making void constructs because apparently you can't control void even though that's exactly what he did in the first game

Proof TC writes whatever popped into their heads

[uncut holly]

Well the Snail Shaman in the original game, claims that theyre people could never make something like Abyssal Shriek. Which looking at the extent that they do, is likely not true now.

[terse warren]

also 3 queens is a retcon by virtue of the fact that the hive originally wanted nothing to do with Hallownest's stuff

[terse warren]

which is a retcon which is bad

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the geniuses end up retconning something literally every time HK is referenced

[humble iron]

PK did end up creating an entity that has united the void so I'd say he has succeeded

[tidal trellis]

or that can just be hornets opinion even if shes wrong

[uncut holly]

It was planned but then they went back on it then they went back on the Vespa relations again

[sinful nimbus]

That wasn't his doing really

[terse warren]

doesn't change that it's a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Einstein's parents didn't create the theory of relativity

[humble iron]

I mean it was indirectly, though unintentionally

[tidal trellis]

I dont think shade lord or the knight united the whole void, in ss ending hes fighting against it not controlling it

[modest ermine]

We don't know if the snail shaman groups ever even interacted with each other. In fact, the snail shaman in HK is distinctly unaware of the void. The snail shamans in Silksong are fully aware of the void from the beginning. A knowledge gap is not a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

She's presented as a reliable and knowledgeable narrator so this dialogue is clearly TC trying to hint at something that conflicts with the first game

[terse warren]

The Kings/Wingsmoulds are a way better example of PK's prowess at harnessing the void's power

[uncut holly]

So Hornet says stuff like you cant control the void when talking about the Wingsmoulds. Despite the fact we have a confirmed city that is presumeably successful The City of Steel, who uses void and is still actively thriving likely. And also that all of the kings other void constructs never went bad except the Collector.

[thick canyon]

im making a video about deep docks and i wonder why is deep docks called deep docks, where does the docks part fit in the lore?

[quartz flicker]

The clovers in Memoriam seem to imply that Verdania was still around at the height of the Citadel's power.

[sinful nimbus]

Generally the altruistic MC isn't supposed to spout blatant misinformation and never be corrected

[blissful harbor]

it’s the wording of how the shaman phrases it
“its not a place my kind ever thought to look”
it implies shamans as a whole, but like now retroactively, it just means the ones in hallownest i suppose

[terse warren]

yes it was did you notread Green Prince dialogue

[golden olive]

yoooo wait does the wingmould entry confirm that the PK died to a kingsmould in the white palace

[sinful nimbus]

Meddling with void is illegal in the city of steel though

They will kill you if you do that

[terse warren]

i think it more so means that sentence never existed to begin with

[spark valve]

not whatsoever

[uncut holly]

Yeah thats the Snail Shaman retcon, we know their super related to Soul and Void now. Which isnt bad it works for them in Hollowknight, it just isnt stated there its deliberately stated against.

[terse warren]

they were always related to soul just not void

[golden olive]

i think i can make that stretch

[quartz flicker]

I'm mainly just intrigued by the Citadel being so old.

[spark valve]

there being a hypothetical way to handwave a retcon doesn't make it not a retcon

[terse warren]

The haunting is relatively recent

[sinful nimbus]

Handwaves won't delete bad writing anyway

[uncut holly]

Snail Shaman being shamans with long spanning ancestral histories, that experiment with Void and Soul does fit them. Its just that in Hollow Knight, while the Snail Shaman corpse gives us Void, the Snail Shaman we talk to says "Oh we could never mess with Void".

[terse warren]

petition to rename this channel to Retcon Discussion

[spark valve]

shaman corpses don't give you void

[blissful harbor]

the shamans don’t give us void

[modest ermine]

A. This wording means nothing stopped them from looking, they just didn't.
B. Silksong happens after Hollow Knight so it's possible the shamans in Silksong were told to look into the void.

[uncut holly]

Whats the void that you get from a shaman

[spark valve]

not void, it's their body

[uncut holly]

Theres one that you get from a dead snail shaman

[blissful harbor]

the shaman tells us we mix our own void with the spells, we kinda just absorb their essence

[uncut holly]

Oh no im not saying snails shamans are void

Im saying theres one corpse shaman you get some void spell from

[spark valve]

the void doesn't come from the snail

[uncut holly]

But the Snail Shaman you speak with says they could never mess with it

[blissful harbor]

shade spirit and descending dark i believe, but it’s still not from them

[uncut holly]

Whats the spells you get from the shamans?

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@tammo6424 used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[uncut holly]

Oh its not from them

[terse warren]

ah yes they conveniently went from not ever interacting with the void to being so obsessed by it that it is supposed to be a known fact that they love it in the span of a game

[golden olive]

"Only a fool believes that void can be fashioned to do their bidding" -> void in the kingsmould's rebelled -> the void tendrils probably went all up in their shit and removed all the soul -> the kingsmould's corpses near the PK killed him without somehow leaving a trace of void near the ground

[uncut holly]

So that was retconned possibly to just have them be the ones behind it. OR the Shamans in Pharloom are way more into Void.

[frail marten]

I think seekers corpse confirms snails are not void
It has the same animation as when you break hornets cocoon

[sinful nimbus]

See tammo this is why this line of dialogue sucks

[blissful harbor]

PK did not get killed by kingsmoulds

he would eat them for breakfast wtf

[spark valve]

there's no accounting for people just making shit up

[sinful nimbus]

They fanned the flames dawg

I should've stoned them with arcane eggs when I got the chance

[terse warren]

have you considered just ingoring the dialogue and saying that hornet is wrong

[uncut holly]

I feel like the best candidate for Pale King getting killed in the Abyss, but not the Kingsmoulds. We see the abyss smoke go all the way up to Ancient Basin beyond the Castle.

[hazy carbon]

hello chat

[uncut holly]

Its possible it came for him, or something.

[sinful nimbus]

Sugar coated pills won't keep
You from feeling so woozy

[quartz flicker]

What if Silksong takes place much longer after HK than we realize, and the Shamans looked into the Void BECAUSE of the events of HK?

[modest ermine]

It's possible. It's also possible the snail shamans are two different groups. Which would make sense considering they're in 2 different kingdoms. Being the same species doesn't mean you do exactly the same thing at all times 🤷‍♂️

[golden olive]

im not making shit up, its absolutely a stretch but i think its a perfectly logical course of events given that journal entry ᗜˬᗜ

[uncut holly]

It could

[blissful harbor]

i think he just died
perhaps took his own life

[modest ermine]

Especially when there's a massive area of nothing between the 2 groups

[golden olive]

im saying its more so the void not the kingsmould's

[terse warren]

i mean considering that out of the two contrasting pieces of info, one is a dialogue from a biased source and another is physical proof im more inclined to believe hornet is wrong

[slender glacier]

Can a wyrm actually die?

[blissful harbor]

he didn’t die from void either

[golden olive]

wait yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Her being wrong is besides the point

[uncut holly]

I think he could probably take his own life, but I dont think a higher being who ascended the minds of all bugs in hallownest from savagery, and shined a light that hurt people who looked at him would die from old age.

[terse warren]

snail shamans seem to all be somewhat related by family

[sinful nimbus]

I'm just insulting TC's lack of media literacy

[spark valve]

old age is not on the table

[terse warren]

oh well of course

[blissful harbor]

he intended to rule hallownest eternally, it wasn’t old age

[golden olive]

why was the void in the PK throne room inactive anyhow, why is it laying on the ground like an inanimate object

[terse warren]

PK's light is keeping it away

[wary plover]

Who is the caretaker supposed to be

[spark valve]

because that's what it does in those quantities

[uncut holly]

Pale King is a straight up god like being, hes the one the Godseekers saw because he shined so powerful, but he got snuffed out mysteriously. Either his own action or the Void seem the only candidates.

[golden olive]

how tf did this man die then

[terse warren]

a snail shaman

[blissful harbor]

he took his life

[golden olive]

with WHAT

[terse warren]

grief or suicide

[golden olive]

with his own mind?

[hazy carbon]

his own will then

[blissful harbor]

magic, jdut decided to stop living
idk bro hes a god

[uncut holly]

Honestly PK could probably just turn himself off

[wary plover]

Wait really. Is he the one that tricked hornet

[modest ermine]

Yes they're the same species 😂 That doesn't mean they're in conversation with each other, nor does it mean they're doing exactly the same thing at all times. One group can be interested in void in pharloom, the other can say it's forbidden in Hollownest

[uncut holly]

But i think he might have died to Void

[blissful harbor]

he doesn’t show any signs of a void death

[hazy carbon]

"haha i had 1k+ children" kills himself with mind.

[terse warren]

family as in they're literally cousins or uncles or brothers

[uncut holly]

There is Void ambience in his room. And the void fumes are up at the entrance to Ancient Basin.

Its a mystery no one knows

[golden olive]

bruh

[spark valve]

ancient basin is perfectly safe to be in

[blissful harbor]

yes void is present, but none of it is on him
there are no eye streaks, no tendrils connected to his body

[terse warren]

also Hornet clearly knows that the snail shamans have an interest in void, so she must've learned it somewhere else

[uncut holly]

Oh the void isnt in the Ancient Basin but the background fume particles of the Void are all the way up at the entrance of Ancient Basin

Meaning it possibly could have come up there, or its just bellowing out

[quartz flicker]

I like the idea that hk Shaman messaged her family and was like "hey this Void shit is crazy"

[uncut holly]

I mean it could take place centuries later for all we know

[terse warren]

it'd be funny but also still a retcon and horrible writing

[modest ermine]

This is never stated, and still doesn't do anything to bolster your point. They can live away from each other and not talk regardless. The weavers in deepnest literally act and behave completely different from the ones in pharloom. Their technology is way less, their structures look different, etc. They are clearly 2 groups not in contact. So why is it completely unreasonable for the snail shamans to be the same

[quartz flicker]

it's a sequel

[uncut holly]

In hollow Knight we have alot of characters who are old enough to witness the events of the Kingdom take place. In Pharloom we have very very few.

Living anyway

[terse warren]

doesn't change the fact they went from notknowingabout the void at all to being thenumber 1 fans

is still a retcon and bad writing

[blissful harbor]

it is stated the shamans in are family, the shaman we talk to refers to all the other ones as uncle, cousin, aunt, etc

[spark valve]

it's a retcon by definition you can handwave it if you want but that doesn't make it not a retcon

[uncut holly]

Yeah it contradicts what they say in Hollow Knight

[modest ermine]

Hornet probably met the 2 shamans that were interested in void (or forced to take void). The ones that give you shade soul and deep dive.

[terse warren]

doesn't change that it's a retcon

justlike the weaver thing also is a retcon

[terse warren]

are you being for real right now

[blissful harbor]

those two weren’t interested in void

[uncut holly]

Best explanation if we try to not retcon it is this takes place so ridiculously far in the future that things had happened, or this snail shaman group is very into void study.

[modest ermine]

Idk what to tell you bruh. You're convinced TC is dumb and that it's impossible 2 groups exist and time has passed between 2 games.

[terse warren]

did you completely miss the conversation we had 5 minutes ago that explains they were not related to void at all

[terse warren]

it is a retcon by literal definition

[uncut holly]

Well in silk song they are related to void. In hollow knight Snail Shamans arent related to void

[terse warren]

it wouldn't change the fact that it'd be a retcon that's not how retcons work

[quartz flicker]

it's not a retcon if the whole point is that Snail Shamans learned about the Void as a consequence of hk

[spark valve]

y'all have to google what a retcon is

[blissful harbor]

first game” we shamans haven’t explored the void”
second game” we shamans sure do love the void”
it’s a retcon lmao

[terse warren]

which was hinted at literally nowhere, therefore it is a retcon

[uncut holly]

No it would be an explanation. If we dont see it as a retcon a way it would make sense is that millenias have passed and Snail Shamans have become known for new things.

[terse warren]

if youhave to make up the explanation yourself it is 99% of the time a retocn

[uncut holly]

It is a retcon

[modest ermine]

We literally knew 1 shaman in hollow knight that did pretty much nothing, and all of a sudden it's world ending when the shamans act differently in a different kingdom 😭 🙏 It's your head cannon being wrong, not a retcon. Basing your whole world off scraps of information and getting mad when you're wrong

[slender glacier]

it is the cousin of a raccoon

[uncut holly]

but if we where to make sense of it with it all being unchanged

[golden olive]

yeah i dont think there's a point speculating trying to get around the fact its a retcon

[blissful harbor]

head canon, and it’s literally what the shaman tells us

[undone fable]

ive seen the word retcon a dozen times in the last 5 minutes, how awful is tc's writing in silksong???

[uncut holly]

Yes I know what a retcon is, you arent listening to what im saying

[terse warren]

it's not awful butthere are at least 5 retcons

[terse warren]

what you are saying doesn't mean it isn't a retcon

[undone fable]

that really sucks

[uncut holly]

If we try to find a explanation with it, as if they arent going back and changing that fact or disregarding it. That is a way it would make sense

Im not saying that

At all

[terse warren]

if you haveto invent an explanation it still is a retcon

[cosmic light]

Wait, wait,wait, so - If I understand correctly, Clover Dancers were not only gay, but also twin brothers? ;-;

[ancient scroll]

This is just a silly internet argument arguing semantics not actual writing

[uncut holly]

It wouldnt be a retcon because it would still be going with the "original intention"

[sinful nimbus]

That's not what that says

[blissful harbor]

they’re not related, it’s just saying they’re destined to be together

[sinful nimbus]

They were just born at the same time

[golden olive]

i think born "apart" means they aren't related

[blissful harbor]

born on the same day, same beat
yk, destined lovers

[modest ermine]

The one shaman, who is clearly less knowledgeable than the ones in Silksong, telling us herself, that her people (could just relate to the ones in Hollownest, not all of the world), didn't think to mess with void (could have at any point, just didn't). None of this means that the shamans in pharloom are incapable of interacting with the void.

[cosmic light]

Well, yea, I somehow missed that one bit xdd

[modest ermine]

Lowkey, the shaman in hollow knight was just dumb. I rest my case.