sk-lore

[tawdry flare]

No I mean like their goals are opposite First Sinner would want to murder Widow

[golden olive]

she supposedly has to be full weaver since hornet herself is 50% weaver

[plucky granite]

how would any pure blooded weavers ever be born then

[edgy stone]

Yeah this is probably just gonna be something that gets headcannoned

[raven cove]

They can but they apparently have trouble doing it

[edgy stone]

Theres never gonna be a definitive answer sadly

[muted lantern]

Well weavers are all female, so I assume they have strong genetics considering they need an outside species to reproduce

[spark valve]

that's a cool thing
they aren't

[plucky granite]

oh i didnt know first sinners backstory

[raven cove]

They were able to reproduce in Hallownest, Little Weavers exist

[tawdry flare]

Yeah I'm very curious what's up with the little weavers in Hallownest

[edgy stone]

I am rocking with my herrah is a weaver made by weavers theory

[empty sierra]

what if herrah made another weaver birth hornet but then raised her herself

[spark valve]

we don't talk about little weavers

little weavers make no sense

[heady moat]

I have a question

[plucky granite]

might just be a retcon

[tawdry flare]

theyre just small, weak willed weavers. boom done

[edgy stone]

We see other spiders that move like little weavers right?

[elfin berry]

i really suspect hornet just gained the knowledge to weave. they litteraly state that its a skill shared by weavers. we also see them training hornet in the memory

[edgy stone]

Could be halfbreeds of weavers and those bugs

[covert tusk]

My theory is that their growth is stunted by the infection, no real basis but it makes more sense to me than anything else imo

[queen patrol]

hornet's collection of parents is getting unreasonable

[elfin berry]

we cant call it a retcon just because

[spark valve]

weaver in half part

[raven cove]

She is also stated to be half weaver

[edgy stone]

Id imagine most weaver offspring look more like weavers than horneg

[plucky granite]

lancer type shi

[heady moat]

When you guys first stumbled into "Songclave" and lets assume you did not notice the name of the area when you entered it

Would you guys think it to be an Enclave of bugs?

[tawdry flare]

actually you could argue theyre like. weavers regressing to pharlids or something

[raven cove]

Hornet is half weaver and was also trained by them those things are not mutually exclusive

[muted lantern]

People are saying snail shamans having connection to void is a retcon, despite one exploding into void particles

[heady moat]

Would the word "Enclave" pop up into your mind

[raven cove]

That is… not what they are

[tawdry flare]

IDK TC could probably patch Hollow Knight to be consistent with Silksong

[edgy stone]

Its weirdly stated they arent connected to void in hk

[golden olive]

this shit is SO FUCKING CONFUSING

[elfin berry]

my point is that a weaver is just a spider that knows that how to weave

weaver is litteraly a verb

[empty sierra]

also the fact that the soul abilities can be upgraded to void at all?

[edgy stone]

But its also so stupid in that game as well because visually and gameplay wise they are

[spark valve]

that doesn't happen in hk

[barren valley]

they also say that being able to weave would prove that she’s more weaver than wyrm, so it really does seem to be part of their nature

[covert tusk]

I mean it’s a pun on the word soup yeah probably

[edgy stone]

But for some reason team cherry tells us they arent

[muted lantern]

By one of them, but another clearly explodes with void and gives you a void spell

[heady moat]

Why do you think HK is not consistent with Silkson

[spark valve]

they don't

[quartz flicker]

There's also a Snail Shaman spell being amplified in the Abyss.

[empty sierra]

but i guess the dash is also upgraded by void yet it isnt a soul/shaman ability

[tawdry flare]

Many Things

[heady moat]

Go on

[tawdry flare]

Mm I don't wanna ask someone else to

[edgy stone]

Other than the weird herrah thing I dont have any issues with the retcons really

[elfin berry]

her mom goes into sleep and a bunch of spiders want her to be more like them. could honesly be a cause of the weavers wanting her on their side due to her being part wyrm

[edgy stone]

I dont think the story of either game is harmed

[elfin berry]

you can be cultrualy something without having it in your dna

[quartz flicker]

who else thought that Wisp Thicket was gonna be way bigger

[raven cove]

The Snail Shaman in HK doesn’t even know what Void is and says it’s not somewhere his kind have ever thought to look, the black particles are Shaman bits and the Void spells are explicitly the result of TK merging its own essence with the Shaman spells

[empty sierra]

thank god it wasnt

[spark valve]

I found it late so it was pretty penned in by other stuff on the map

[raven cove]

The Snail Shaman Void thing is a retcon as it contradicts what we’re told about them in HK

[covert tusk]

The snail shamans in Silksong intrigue me, why didn’t they leave when places like verdania and the hunters march were crippled? Why’s they disguise and become key figures (Chappel Maid and wtv the guy in Songclave was named)

[queen patrol]

my personal position is for anything that's contradictory or otherwise nonsensical i'm going to wait until tc has released all dlcs and whatever else they want to do with the game before claiming plot holes or retcons

[empty sierra]

also how big of a deal even is it maybe these are a separate group of shamans familiar with and practicing void?

[quartz flicker]

Wisp Thicket is treated as a sub-section of Greymoor, but feels nothing like Greymoor.

[golden olive]

SS brought up the idea of hornet having sought mates in the past so i think the story of HK is harmed by not telling us who she was trying to silk off to

[spark valve]

not but it remains a retcon

[empty sierra]

yeah but its minor

[raven cove]

That’s not the point

[empty sierra]

they dont set up absolute rules that EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE is like how its in hallownest

[barren valley]

sad not immortal shakra

[elfin berry]

my conclusion imo is that hornet is a weaver cultrualy as shes half spider with the training of a weaver. She has the abiliets of a weaver without being birthed by one. More like a nationality than a race.

[muted lantern]

Im sorry but the guy exploding into black particles that give you a void spell is pretty explicit, the other snail referred to shade soul and I don't recall if that one had black particles but it's pretty clear some snail shamans had some connection to void, what the snail shaman in HK said is notable, but also "your own nature" is the void, so collecting void from another being allowing you it isn't too farfetched, I think information within hollow knight on this itself is pretty blatantly contradictory, I'm just not able to be convinced the black particles exploding that give you a void spell isn't void and perhaps snail shaman was unaware because the dead shamans are from a much more ancient sect that he's unaware of.

[covert tusk]

Hornet feeds her a piece of silk like the finger from jjk and boom they can get married now

[raven cove]

Ok so you just didn’t read the dialogue

[tawdry flare]

maybe everyone in Hollow Knight is Stupid. Pale King? Stupid. Snail Shaman? Stupid

[spark valve]

it's explicitly not void it's just not ambiguous and even in silksong they themselves aren't void

[empty sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-17729711691959966457

[barren valley]

I don’t think it seems likely that others can learn to weave as it should undermine a lot of the point of weavers

[muted lantern]

So it's just some other black particles that gives you void skills?

[spark valve]

it is THEIR BODY which IS BLACK

[empty sierra]

maybe only spiders can?

[elfin berry]

thats the whole reason that hornet is so special

[weak pebble]

what if john snail shaman is a liar

[elfin berry]

shes half what is basically a god

[muted lantern]

I don't think they are void but that one shaman has void on them

[safe barn]

I mean I’d understand it being a retcon if it’s explicitly shown to us that something is the case in HK and it’s different here but it’s a character saying something different than what is happening here

[barren valley]

I think she’s just part weaver 😭

[spark valve]

no shaman has void on them

[raven cove]

This is just not true

[barren valley]

I think herrah being a weaver is the simplest explanation

[raven cove]

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

[tawdry flare]

"Ah ha ha yeah we have no connection to void! Wink Wink."

[raven cove]

also

[empty sierra]

yeah this guy doesnt seem to know what void is

[muted lantern]

Idk fam, I read the dialogue, but the particles being black is pretty void looking, it feels inherently contradictory

[raven cove]

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

[elfin berry]

simpilist doesnt mean its right. It would imply it was retconned with no explanation when there are other answers

[barren valley]

me to my friend that just discovered tech in a game that I’ve known about but want to make them feel good

[spark valve]

when it actually is void he identifies it as something very different

[queen patrol]

my hc for one of hornet's former mates is pale lurker. purely unfounded but i think hornet would've enjoyed hanging out at the colosseum in her earlier years and lurker DOES use spike traps similar to hornet, which is cute. maybe one of the taught the other. lurker losing her shit and hiding in the back of the colo could've given hornet the impression she died

[raven cove]

But it’s explicitly not Void. You thinking they’re Void because they’re black is irrelvant

[muted lantern]

What does he say about the dive upgrade?

[empty sierra]

ok yeah

its very clear that the shamans there have no clue

[muted lantern]

I don't think snails are made of void?

[quartz flicker]

It's also possible that Weaver reproduction is just fucking weird and Herrah is her Mother just as a social role.

[golden olive]

PALE LURKER OH HELL NAW 😭 😭 😭 🧛 ⚰️🦇🩸

[empty sierra]

but you cant say its meant that shamans in every land are the same

[uncut shell]

maybe the break up is what made her go fucking crazy

[spark valve]

the dive upgrade is similar but he comments on sensing something about the snail it was acquired from because they're used as a fuel source and reiterating how the spell absorbtion works is pointless

[quartz flicker]

As in, Herrah is the Matriach of the Weavers in Hallownest.

[golden olive]

i can see hornet with hive knight tho

[muted lantern]

Weavers reproduce through mitosis

[covert tusk]

IF I FUMBLED HORNET I’D ALSO GO BATSHIT INSANE I DONT BLAME THE PALE LURKER

[tawdry flare]

Herrah specifically asked to HAVE The Pale King's child as HER daughter Idk why she'd use a surrogate

[elfin berry]

i think its pretty clear the snails are void when claiming the flower that resists the void fucking kills them

[barren valley]

I really don’t feel like it was a retcon given that it didn’t seem like herrah was ever necessarily not a weaver, even in hk

[raven cove]

He says my kind. He is making a generalization about Snail Shamans

It is a retcon

[empty sierra]

that he knows of obviously

[elfin berry]

"common beast" and all the weavers looking the same except her for no reason would make it a retcon lol

[empty sierra]

you wouldnt know anything about other shamans if you believed youre in the only living civilization and grew up with your local group of shamans

[raven cove]

This is not reasoning

[empty sierra]

wdym this isnt reasoning

it makes complete sense

[raven cove]

Nothing in HK could possibly have implied there was another group of Shamans he didn’t know about that were somehow familiar with Void it’s a retcon end of

[safe barn]

I’m so confused could the snail shaman just be wrong? Like I’d understand if TC didn’t mean that at the time but it’s a simple fix now?

[muted lantern]

If snails are unrelated to void it is odd that shamans in silksong say she should of expected them to do so maybe he's just saying shamans have a tendency to meddle with the occult it's still odd

[empty sierra]

they didnt have to imply or foreshadow anything, they expanded on it

[covert tusk]

Me when I’m omnipresently aware about every single member of my family to ever exist so the guy I met two seconds ago can be caught up to date with The Lore

[spark valve]

it being revealed later that a character said something wrong in a context where the narrative framing suggested that they're correct IS A RETCON

[empty sierra]

they make their own rules

[raven cove]

It is a retcon

[tawdry flare]

maybe ancestral mound shaman was just cut off from the other shamans!! MAYBE HE;S STUPDI1!!!!!!!!

[empty sierra]

it would be a retcon if they made a rule then broke it rgiht?

[golden olive]

naw its a retcon but its not like thats inherently bad yknow

[barren valley]

I think that a reveal of new information and retcon can be considered different

[empty sierra]

we have a very different interpretation of what a retcon is clearly

[raven cove]

This isn’t reasoning because the game doesn’t at any point imply that he might be wrong

[tawdry flare]

this Is a Retcon

[muted lantern]

No they are right on the definition of retcon

[covert tusk]

Honestly maybe he just didn’t feel the need to mention it, he’s talking to a void creature already, why state the obvious? It’s like saying to another guy “well my family is made out of skin!”

[elfin berry]

but there is no new information. Nothing states she is a weaver directly. It all talks about hornet

[tawdry flare]

WHAT>!>!>>>????

[empty sierra]

i thought retcon was just contradicting enstablished information 😭

[raven cove]

He is presented as being knowledgeable about what his people get up to so him later being proven to be wrong in that context makes it a retcon it isn’t that complicated

[spark valve]

shamans aren't made of void

[elfin berry]

if anything it says shes not more in this game lol

[tawdry flare]

READ THIS!!!!

[spark valve]

even in silksong they aren't made of void

[queen patrol]

a retcon is a meta thing, not just one character being contradictory

[elfin berry]

oops wrong reply

[empty sierra]

but he isnt all knowing obviously

[covert tusk]

Ouhhhhh shit I did NOT backread lmao mb

[spark valve]

that does not make it not a retcon

[empty sierra]

ok im gonna bring up an example from attack on titan if anyones seen it, is the ||reveal of the world outside the walls a retconn if the people in the walls said they are the last people on earth?||

[raven cove]

oh my god he is an expositional npc his entire point is to tell us shit there was no reason to assume he was wrong or uninformed or whatever nor was that implied anywhere what you are describing IS A RETCON

[tawdry flare]

TC should patch Hollow Knight to be consistent so new players can pretend like there were never retcons imo

[oak helm]

hi guys can y'all just give me the complete verdania lore thankyou

[muted lantern]

Do you guys think it's possible hollow is still alive since they didn't appear among the shades in the true ending?

[empty sierra]

yeah sure its a retcon by definition if you wanna call it that

to me it makes perfect sense in the story regardless

[spark valve]

this is the entire point

[empty sierra]

idc what the word describing it is

[weak pebble]

🧠

[tawdry flare]

Silksong takes place after DNM & ETV so they could be but it doesn't matter in the context of Silksong

[spark valve]

it was a realm, one of the princes sacrificed his life to the citadel to try to get them to protect it but it didn't work and verdania fell anyways

[elfin berry]

the whole idea with the weavers is that they weren't divine. they not higher beings or some super special bloodline. just a type of spider that knows how to do some fancy stuff. passing that along is not far fetched.

[muted lantern]

To avert this intellectual death battle here's kittys

[spark valve]

weavers are inherently magial

[raven cove]

If SS follows EtV then THK is “alive” if it follows DNM then THK is dead both are canonically viable outcomes

[tawdry flare]

they were literally Gods Chosen People

[muted lantern]

Im just talking for headcanon purposes, it seems odd that I'd hollow were alive she'd never mention it

[elfin berry]

until they werent when she made better people

or

better person

[raven cove]

Why would she mention that

[spark valve]

it doesn't really come up

[muted lantern]

If she had a living sibling shed be sort of more in a rush to get back to them

[raven cove]

To do what

[golden olive]

to slime him

[raven cove]

She has more pressing matters to attend to

[muted lantern]

Idk to make sure her siblings alright after she got kidnapped

[golden olive]

but the HK would be a shade anyway

[safe barn]

How did hornet know about the everbloom and why did the white lady have one?

[muted lantern]

Not if it's dnm, their body remains

[weak pebble]

didn’t they say that the flowers were like their way of not dying to the void

[raven cove]

It doesn’t make sense for her to have one don’t think about it too hard Act 3 is stupid

[muted lantern]

White lady does know about everbloom in base hollow knight so presumably hornet would too

[weak pebble]

so they probably just had a stash in the castle

[spark valve]

they can take care of themselves

[elfin berry]

why would it not make sense?

[tawdry flare]

"...I have seen others make the same mistake. Like my sibling, The Hollow Knight, that is alive and well in Hallownest."

[elfin berry]

very dismissive way to talk about lore lmao

[golden olive]

dnm or etv?

[muted lantern]

What's weird is white lady being the one who gives the everbloom instead of ze'mer

[spark valve]

wl would have plenty of access to the flower

[elfin berry]

"dont think about it too hard" brother you're in the lore channel, thats the point

[golden olive]

cuz i thought the HK became a shade in dnm

[muted lantern]

Etv fucking acronyms I'm bad at

[weak pebble]

embrace the void

godhome ending i think idk i dont remember

[empty sierra]

yea

[safe barn]

Is it not from a distant land?

[spark valve]

ze'mer brought them to hallownest

[muted lantern]

She clearly knows about everblooms in the original, considering her comments on it if you bring one to her, why she has one is odd but not inherently canon breaking, just odd that it's not zemer

[tawdry flare]

PK probably knew about the Everbloom's power given Ze'mer was one of his knights and he was experimenting with void so WL probably did too

[muted lantern]

It's also a dream

[golden olive]

for etv yeah for sure, and im actually hoping future dlc selects etv as the canon ending and lets us experience more of hornet's memories so we can see what happened

[elfin berry]

theres a garden of them in hollow knight that you can keep taking from to make delieveries. her having one is not a stretch in the slightest. also that is in hornets memories so its surley colored

[raven cove]

Sure but this is a bit silly really she refuses to take it when TK offers her one and says it’s not of her while she could supposedly pick one up from the grave of the Traitor’s Child I’m not sure how and she definitely didn’t already have one in her possession

[weak pebble]

speaking of dreams was lord fool a cruster

[spark valve]

all she had to do was hold it at any point when hornet saw she doesn't have to have usually had one on her

[weak pebble]

i thought he looked similar idk i might be crazy

[empty sierra]

the flower breaks easily she cant just have it always with her

[muted lantern]

Also white lady in original explicitly knows everblooms power, and why she comments on the knight (a void being) if they knew what it was they wouldn't be holding it

[safe barn]

Ngl would have been more happy to see zote than the fetch quest for the shamans

[tawdry flare]

The flower is a memory manifestation made of pure soul it isn't the actual flower

[empty sierra]

and she certainly woudlnt go back all the way to hallownest so she conjured it out of her past memories somehow 💀

[raven cove]

Holy fucking airball

[elfin berry]

it is called a fragile flower in game and she was kidnapped, of course she doesnt have one

[muted lantern]

Honestly if ze'mer were from pharloom it would make the getting everbloom sequence make more sense

[spark valve]

it would not

[muted lantern]

Because then you could actually get one

[obsidian quail]

how?

[spark valve]

if flowers were around hornet could've just gotten one

[obsidian quail]

it’s not from pharloom

[weak pebble]

but the everbloom isn’t in pharloom

[tawdry flare]

why do you think the spell required so much soul its because they were literally MANIFESTING the flower

[raven cove]

It’s a memory manifestation yes idk about it being made of soul though

[muted lantern]

Because then everblooms would be in pharloom if ze'mer was from there

[golden olive]

which is bonkers btw

[tawdry flare]

ok well a lot of soul was used to make it

[elfin berry]

it says fragile in the items discription in your invintory

[obsidian quail]

why is that significant

[empty sierra]

like during the run from chapel to the void?

[elfin berry]

i suspect it just doesnt break in one hit for the sake of gameplay in ss

[safe barn]

Not in silksong

[obsidian quail]

that everbloom isn’t from pharloom? it’s a big world

[raven cove]

No a lot of soul was used to power the spell that sent Hornet through the veil among other things

[empty sierra]

yea probably a gameply choice

[elfin berry]

yes it does

[muted lantern]

If everblooms were in pharloom you could physically find one instead of dreaming one up which felt a little contrived

[empty sierra]

it does break down in void

[raven cove]

What that demonstrates is that crossing the veil is kind of hard if you don’t have a specialized tool actually

[empty sierra]

but i agree they could've made it fragile in ss too, wouldnt be too big of a deal from chapel to the docks

[obsidian quail]

how is it contrived? it was a vehicle for Hornet to explore herself as a character

[spark valve]

it's a bit contrived but whatever

[safe barn]

“Ethereal flower plucked from a deep and distant memory. Glows with soft, pale light that wards against the void.”

[muted lantern]

The summoning a physical object out of your memories part felt a little out of place

Everything else was cool

[spark valve]

that part is completely within the magic system

[weak pebble]

what if she just forgot it was fragile and just remembered the power flower part

[empty sierra]

yeea that was weird, but didnt smthn like that happen in godhome?

[raven cove]

It is contrived act 3 is also stupid that’s far from the most offensive part

[elfin berry]

i just checked as well, i could have sworn i read fragile on it.

[muted lantern]

You are very negative

Did you not like the ending?

[raven cove]

ok

[safe barn]

It’s probably more a physical manifestation of what the flower is in her memories?

[elfin berry]

why are you here then if you think its stupid?

[tawdry flare]

I believe he is simply correct

[obsidian quail]

how come?

[tawdry flare]

Because the world of Hollow Knight is still very interesting and cool

[empty sierra]

tbf he did spend 20$ on the game he can talk shit about it lmfaoo

[muted lantern]

About act 3 being stupid? That's a pretty subjective stance

[elfin berry]

id argue it just is the flower consisdering the required power

[raven cove]

Am I not allowed to criticize the narrative of the game

Am I not allowed to discuss lore is that not what this channel is for

[elfin berry]

you litteraly said "its stupid dont think about it"

in the think about it channel

[tawdry flare]

Yeah. It's his opinion so he's right. Duh

[muted lantern]

It's kinda a waste of your own time to discuss in such detail a game you don't like, but I understand, I talked similarly about everhood 2 which disappointed me and was a sequel of my favorite game

[obsidian quail]

i mean it’s Silksong but it’s still Hollow Knight, maybe they felt like they needed to have the narratives connect

how u feel about that choice is up to u

[empty sierra]

yeah a lot of people are disappointed from ss thats fine, its interesting to talk about regardless

[obsidian quail]

but i’m guessing they felt they had to put some HK connection in there

[empty sierra]

we dont have to glaze it in an echo chamber

[muted lantern]

Just don't really remember that being a thing in the original, or having any prior examples of that being a thing you could do

[golden olive]

what do masks do again? let bugs be conscious?

[raven cove]

No

Neither Mask Maker actually does anything aside from yap

[golden olive]

r u srs

[obsidian quail]

yeah i’m guessing they did that because they still see it as an overarching narrative, it was originally DLC after all

[raven cove]

Yes I am serious

Masks do not grant bugs consciousness or whatever

[obsidian quail]

why does it matter if it wasn’t in the original?

we can’t have new things?

[muted lantern]

I feel like a thing like that being possible needs some setup, otherwise it feels like a deus ex machina

[obsidian quail]

i’m saying silksong was originally hollow knight dlc

[safe barn]

Did we not do this with half of the king soul in the white palace?

[golden olive]

i swore they did something. imma look at HK's mask maker dialogue again

[elfin berry]

yeah the whole white palce was in a dead bodies dreams

[obsidian quail]

but if it was shown earlier wouldn’t have people said it was a rehash?

[raven cove]

Summoning a physical object from a memory is actually consistent with established HK lore

[elfin berry]

i dont think pulling an object out is far fetched

[tawdry flare]

you could argue that it was physically trapped within prior

[void smelt]

Someone can explain to me who are these?

[weak pebble]

the entire castle was trapped in it

[muted lantern]

I suppose, but dream realm is an actual realm, while for hornet it's just her memory,

[obsidian quail]

so what don’t u like about act 3? too many HK references?

[tawdry flare]

Memory is the Dream Realm isn't it?

[raven cove]

Kingsoul isn’t a memory

[muted lantern]

How so? I Genuinely don't remember

[raven cove]

Not everything in the dream expanse is a memory

[safe barn]

At that point is that not just arguing semantics about what makes a memory a memory and a dream a dream

[spark valve]

yup

[muted lantern]

Is it? I'd assume it would have some essence particles but I might be misremembering

[void smelt]

Also, why they talked to us?

[raven cove]

In the case of KS it was an actual charm that was split and half of it was moved to the expanse along with PK and his entire house when he plane shifted there

[spark valve]

the abyss memory doesn't

[tawdry flare]

It's sort of the Weaver interpretation of it but it's the same concept

[quartz flicker]

so why did the weavers build a nest in the abyss

[spark valve]

Cool Shit to Check Out

[muted lantern]

Hmm kingsoul is a fair point, but it's still up in the air considering it seems like white palace was physically transported to the dresm

[obsidian quail]

wait so what didn’t u like about act 3? too many HK references or a certain retcon?

[void smelt]

Someone can explain to me who are these and why they talked to us

[tawdry flare]

Probably researching Void as a method to kill/trap GMS

[safe barn]

Severe lack of essence in silksong 0/10 dlc

[tawdry flare]

theyre asking a lore question

[spark valve]

perhaps, though they didn't actually use it

[void smelt]

Im asking who are they, thats lore my friend

[spark valve]

those mark the locations of the melodies hornet needs to collect

[muted lantern]

Symbol of the conductors who were religious leaders I think? And the architects who built the place

[obsidian quail]

they be the Architects, Conductors, and the Nerds

[safe barn]

Weavers magic system seems to be very different from hallownest’s

[raven cove]

I have many issues with it that I don’t plan to elaborate on in this channel however the short of it is that I just find it to be extremely poorly written

[void smelt]

Thanks guys !

[spark valve]

not really they just use less stuff

well they use soul to access other stuff indirectly

[void smelt]

So, those 3 are the architects that built that place, why they reached to us?

[spark valve]

they aren't and they didn't

[raven cove]

Weavers just use soul really

[weak pebble]

I just assumed they had pre recorded messages in the statues

[spark valve]

hornet has to play three songs to make the elevator work
those are the locations of the songs

[obsidian quail]

so u felt the whole thing was contrived and nostalgia bait that disrespected the original with its hand waved retcons?

[void smelt]

Ohh Makes sense

[raven cove]

They could open the veil using Soul but nothing implies they were able to manipulate Essence directly

[obsidian quail]

is that a good summary

[safe barn]

So is the different interactions with the magic system entirely a difference between the knight and hornet then?

[obsidian quail]

would u have preferred no Void at all

[raven cove]

TK and Hornet both use Soul but manipulate it differently and have access to different things

[obsidian quail]

i would have liked to see other Higher Beings instead of Void again

[muted lantern]

The funniest thing that happened on release while people in discord were trying to ask for help about the steam crash losers were trying to use steam achievements to spoil the game for people, but when they saw pale monarch they got confused and were saying as spoilers that pale king is final boss

[raven cove]

TK also uses Void and Essence which Hornet obviously doesn’t have access to

[weak pebble]

Hornet also probably just gets silk instead of soul in silksong because all the enemies have silk for brains

[spark valve]

having just the one hb is cool and respects worldbuilding from the first game

[raven cove]

But it’s primarily Soul for the both of them

[raven cove]

I agree

Hallownest was an outlier

[obsidian quail]

how so

oh was Hallownest said to be an outlier

[spark valve]

godseeker talks about hallownest as an anomaly, a land of true gods

[obsidian quail]

ohhhhh

that’s good then

[empty sierra]

wait where is that said/implied? i didnt know that

[raven cove]

It’s extremely rare to see that many HBs in one place, though ig the Heart was just visiting

Four is still a lot

[obsidian quail]

so the Heart needs Grimm to exist right?

[tawdry flare]

How many were in Hallownest again? Five, with two of them being Pale?

[empty sierra]

hmm i guess if wyrms control soul then yea

[raven cove]

Five if you include NMH

[safe barn]

I just find it so peculiar that we don’t see essence in the game, is that a trait that the white lady passed down the other siblings?

[raven cove]

Six including LoS

[spark valve]

pk unn rad wl los (maybe) lbb

[safe barn]

Like essence sight?

[void smelt]

Let me see if i understand, we are searching for the Threefold Melody right? If that so, these melodies are for the elevator to work. Also, are these 3 characters important to the lore?

[spark valve]

just visiting

[spark valve]

they represent 3 factions within the citadel, the architects, the vault keepers, and the conductors

[muted lantern]

The symbols represent the 3 groups that build the city, the architects who build it, the conductors that lead it, and the vault keepers who retain its history

[raven cove]

NMH and LoS aren’t established HBs so idk how I feel about counting them but PK WL Rad Unn all have a lot of history there

LoS is the new kid NMH is indeed a HB but it’s only there temporarily

LBB is a maybe but it also doesn’t really do anything and I don’t think it’s staying long term

[void smelt]

okkk, and they came to us so we can release Pharloom?

[muted lantern]

Greyroot is totally the same species as white lady imo, but seems to not be a god? Which is odd, she at least has a lot of visual similarities and is called a root, maybe white lady is the god of roots and roots are a normal species

[void smelt]

So basically it was a trap?

[raven cove]

They’re not the same species nor does WL have a species

[muted lantern]

They wanted hornets silk

[muted lantern]

Greyroot looks very similar to wl

[void smelt]

Thanks!!

[spark valve]

pilgrims sing the threefold melody so they can reach the cradle to worship grand mother silk

[raven cove]

Root is used as a title for WL it’s not a species name, and Greyroot is a name

[spark valve]

not that they know what grand mother silk is

Pilgrim of Pharloom eternal, regale us with our Threefold song, that you may rise above and worship before our kingdom's divine heart.

[raven cove]

Only the eyes look similar and there are a lot of differences between them not only aesthetically but also in terms of how they function

[muted lantern]

I still think there's some connection

[raven cove]

They are loosely connected in the sense that they’re both weird plant entities yes

But nothing implies a direct relation

And plant entities are hardly uncommon in this universe

[muted lantern]

I don't think they are directly related, just a similar kind of being

Greyroot just much lesser kind

[raven cove]

Greyroot is, well, a witch

WL is an actual deity

[safe barn]

You think that the rebirth greyroot wanted was the ending? Like her becoming a higher being

[raven cove]

I’m not sure about that

[spark valve]

no, seems like a bonus

greyroot implants hornet then tries to trap her in the chapel, where it would presumably eventually do what it's gonna do

[obsidian quail]

oh duh how is Hornet bringing the flower out of her mind contrived when we see that repeatedly

[muted lantern]

Wl did used to reproduce, maybe her seeds spread far? And greyroot is a child of wl? Kinda like how a tree drops seeds without a mate

[muted lantern]

Why is that coming back up lol

[spark valve]

I think the contrived part is the macguffins, being able to bring something out of a memory is within the existing magic system plenty reasonable

[raven cove]

Somehow I really doubt that’s the case

[raven cove]

That is established in HK yes

[obsidian quail]

i completely forgot that was the case earlier until i just read the higher beings wiki

[empty sierra]

wtf is macguffins

[tawdry flare]

The macguffins being the hearts? Or the shaman souls?

[muted lantern]

What about it

[uncut shell]

Greyroot is definitely the same species was white lady I was losing my shit when I saw it

[muted lantern]

Literary device

[obsidian quail]

Unn and Radiance

[empty sierra]

what?

[spark valve]

the hearts

[uncut shell]

no other beings in this game have those eyes they literally have to be related

[tawdry flare]

Really? I thought the hearts were a really cool concept

[empty sierra]

yea i see the resemblance

[muted lantern]

It's a shorthand for a method of storytelling, like a trope, it just means an object that is essential to the story, like the one ring

[spark valve]

contrived and cool aren't mutually exclusive

[tawdry flare]

True...

[uncut shell]

those eyes plus the fact that they’re the only two beings that have connections to big grey-white scale roots

[obsidian quail]

how else could it have gone though? i’m at a loss on how else u could have Hornet get a flower in time

[uncut shell]

I thought it was extremely obvious

[muted lantern]

One ring might not be a good comparison, maguffin might be a little more specific

[empty sierra]

yea thats pretty cool actually

[spark valve]

that is true but doesn't make it less contrived

[raven cove]

The One Ring is not a macguffin

[muted lantern]

Having them exist in pharloom, perhaps they could have written it so lands serene was an ancient land pharloom was built on top of

[muted lantern]

Already corrected that look at my messages

[raven cove]

A macguffin is defined by being seemingly important without a proper narrative explanation and it is very clearly established why the One Ring is central to the story

[empty sierra]

they did need a reason to bring hornet back in her childhood memories i feel like

so the flower works good enough

[safe barn]

I think it’s less the fact that they have that capability of getting the hearts and more that the shamans first way to get rid of GMS is possibly the worst thing they could have possibly done in that moment

[muted lantern]

I mean it's a great way to kill a god, they didn't know lace would cannonball in too

[empty sierra]

i still dont understand why GMS and lace being in the void caused it to errupt and take over pharloom, but with them gone it chilled and saved pharloom apparently?

[spark valve]

the shaman plan was actually pretty good and bad shit only happened because of reasons outside their control

[raven cove]

If GMS was ever so slightly less pathetic then she wouldn’t have struggled with ununified Void

[safe barn]

I mean if it wasn’t lace it was gonna be hornet

[tawdry flare]

GMS gave up once Lace was safe and the void was out of silk to leech off of or something

[spark valve]

gms was only holding onto life to protect lace, which means her threads remained which let the void get out

[frozen shell]

Gms wouldn’t surrender to protect Lace, with her out of the void gms gave up

[spark valve]

probably not

[neat sandal]

at Karmelita corpse.
I kinda wonder what happen if I not kill her and replace her heart with green prince

[frozen shell]

I hope dlc explores Hornet’s wyrm side

[spark valve]

if gms had pulled hornet down into the void they ould likely have just both died pretty quickly

[empty sierra]

so because gms was fighting the void pharloom suffered the consequence? it wasnt intentional on voids part to overtake the bugs?

[safe barn]

Would shades have stopped void from killing her?

I know it’s just what ifs at this point

[spark valve]

knight probably wouldn't have been there in time

[tawdry flare]

Probably not? TK seemed to take some time to recognize her or just wasn't there yet

[tawdry flare]

The void is mindless in Pharloom, just kinda consuming what soul/silk it can

[frozen shell]

I honestly wonder if Hornet has ANY memories of her father, the red memory reads like he was 100% absent in her life

[wary bronze]

do we become the weaver queeen with we will grandmother and bind? not oging to act 3

[safe barn]

Wonder what the overall control shades have then since they can just apparently stop it from killing hornet and lace. I’m assuming they have no knowledge of what the void does outside of the main area it is in

[empty sierra]

this is a bit disappointing tho, feels like it was made just for hornet to have motivation to save pharloom (and to drastically change the world for gameplay) i think it would've been cooler if she only had to save lace just for the responsibility of putting her there, and pharloom being unaffected by void, would show how she cared

[tawdry flare]

Seems to be complete in a certain area around TK given it didn't try to lash out again

[raven cove]

It was a good plan within that particular context but I feel it merits mentioning that ununified Void is not necessarily a very effective method of combating HBs normally it only worked because GMS was significantly weakened or something

[spark valve]

dropping them into it is a better method than most especially when it's not a god of light

[pseudo stone]

It makes sense, PK isn't exactly shown to be the best parent, and this would have been during and immediately following the vessel plan. He would definitely have other things going on as his kingdom fell apart around him

[hollow harness]

||I can't find Shakra anywhere. Last I heard her say was that her strength had reached her limit after fighting void-cursed bugs. Do I assume the worst?||

[raven cove]

I imagine most HBs could get out of it fairly easily irrespective of whether or not they were lights (in which case it just wouldn’t do anything period)

[tawdry flare]

let her take a break. also this is #sk-lore

[hollow harness]

I mean its story related

[frozen shell]

Oh yeah is the witch a lesser version of the white lady’s species

[tawdry flare]

oh. well you dont have to spoiler tag it here

[safe barn]

She’s in bellhart

[hollow harness]

oh

[raven cove]

GMS was weakened and also didn’t have an obvious escape route like going to the dream expanse or whatever

[hollow harness]

She isnt anymore

[frozen shell]

Directly outside battling void bugs

[tawdry flare]

wait youre the fortniteleaks guy

[raven cove]

Since it doesn’t appear she’s capable of crossing the veil at will

[frozen shell]

I am

[spark valve]

idk I think if you tossed unn down there she'd have a rough time

[hollow harness]

Bellhart was the last placeI found her and thats when she said she was weak

[frozen shell]

Why do you know me as that lmao

[raven cove]

Unn is also weakened

[digital raptor]

Hiii meow

[spark valve]

sure but you know what i mean

[raven cove]

At her peak Unn would just move to the dream expanse

[tawdry flare]

cuz i saw you there a lot
anyway the greyroot witch just seems to be a similar being but not really related

[spark valve]

assuming she can do that

[safe barn]

Peak slug behaviour

[raven cove]

Almost certainly

[frozen shell]

Unrelated but i feel like the fleas smell like cinnamon

[tawdry flare]

they smell like wet dogs

[raven cove]

She moved an entire ecosystem across the veil and the mosskin are described as having walked across it and are said to eventually walk back into the dream this all implies she can open the veil

[safe barn]

Almost certainly autumn flavours

[spark valve]

they also make a point of not just teleporting gms down, she has to be weakened first

like weak enough for hornet to be able to consume her very being

[raven cove]

Yes exactly

That’s why it was a good plan in that specific context

[spark valve]

it would probably work on a lot of hbs if you did that, hell that's basically what happens to rad

it's unified there but she still has to get the shit beaten out of her to disable her aura

[frozen shell]

Gms has 0 aura so she got slimed out

[tawdry flare]

what if you opened a portal above a higher being and just dumped the void on them

[safe barn]

Now that we’ve somewhat seen how weavers were made do you think other HB’s did the same thing with their creatures?

[neat sandal]

if Hornet had mates why there is a OST called Red Maiden?

[spark valve]

unless they're immobilized my money would be on moving out of the way

[frozen shell]

I mean PK has a passive of making bugs smart so i imagine so

[empty sierra]

tf gms is one of the coolest designed bosses by team cherry (at least visually)

[raven cove]

Yes but if it wasn’t unified I think she would have been fine even if you dropped her into it seeing as her core is the brightest part of her and Void probably wouldn’t want to munch on that

[tawdry flare]

aw man.,.. there goes that plan

[frozen shell]

Visually but she was trapped in the citadel she has 0 aura in the land

[raven cove]

Rad is a bad matchup for Void though

Weakened Unn or WL sure they get nommed

[spark valve]

my plan for like 80% of hbs would just be stabbing them a whole bunch tbh

[frozen shell]

Is it SO interesting how bugs general assumption of void is just flat out incorrect, even the ancient void worshippers

[empty sierra]

i mean thats shown to be the most effective strat in both games lmaoo

[pseudo stone]

I mean, we're 3 for 3 on that working?

[frozen shell]

There IS a will to it, it has the capacity to have a mind

[raven cove]

I do like how SS demonstrates that splitting the veil is kind of hard actually

[spark valve]

not really

rad and gms are killed by stabbing them a bunch to weaken them then doing some other bullshit

[raven cove]

It requires a great deal of magical power to transport Hornet into the dream expanse

[tawdry flare]

it doesn't have a will until TK unifies it though

[raven cove]

TK was lucky to have a specialized tool

[frozen shell]

THK had a will

[spark valve]

why didn't hornet think to just stab gms to death is she stupid

[empty sierra]

well have they ever shown what happens if you stab them 3x more 👀

[frozen shell]

Capacity to love its father

[empty sierra]

id say they would just perish

[tawdry flare]

well yeah but those are vessels which aren't just void

they have a mind and stuff

[raven cove]

Also this does retroactively make PK seem cooler since he presumably split the veil open with his own magical power and made a hole big enough to transport the entirety of WP through it (though it was maybe a bumpy ride)

[frozen shell]

Yeah i guess so through TK it gained a will, focus, and therefore overcame what it was assumed to be

[raven cove]

I assume what PK did was similar to the Shaman shit

[safe barn]

Assuming that the snails have been retconned are they made of void because after you get the flower they die or did they just use up all their magical jumbo jumbo juice

[empty sierra]

wryms have huge aura they just do shit no other hb can

wyrms

however its spelled

[tawdry flare]

they used up all their magical jumbo jumbo juice

[frozen shell]

Also the wispy dudes give me huge grimm troupe vibes

[tawdry flare]

no theyre just fire

[frozen shell]

Similar hoods

Maybe not the same but similar for sure

[empty sierra]

they gave me uninstalling the game vibes

[tawdry flare]

the wisps are what made you uninstall the game?

[frozen shell]

The boss was fun

[empty sierra]

almost

[tawdry flare]

Skissue tbh

[raven cove]

uh

[frozen shell]

Oh hey do we have any info on steel soul exclusive stuff uet

[empty sierra]

listen im a hunters crest main

[safe barn]

only annoying part of thicket is that you can’t double jump while aiming down

[frozen shell]

I like how it doesn’t move its interesting

[tawdry flare]

yeah. there's a boss

so go play it rn if you dont want spoilers

[frozen shell]

Any steel npcs?

[frozen shell]

I will yeah just trying to rebeat LL for the mushroom ending

[tawdry flare]

yeah, a steel construct and a jiji-like person i think

[frozen shell]

Not the hunter dudes?

[empty sierra]

is that how it works? is that some bug i just felt like sometimes my double jump didnt work

[tawdry flare]

i havent gotten that far yet

[tawdry flare]

they were cut, likely gonna be DLC

[safe barn]

If you aim down it goes to your glide no matter what

[frozen shell]

Damn

[safe barn]

Such a silly mechanic I swear

[empty sierra]

oh wait thats interesting

[frozen shell]

So was the monarchs crest

Or whatever it would be called

[empty sierra]

i mean sometimes you DO want glide instead of double jump, unlocking a second jump messed up my muscle memory for gliding

[barren valley]

that mechanic makes me so happy

[empty sierra]

it should've been unlcoking jump first then glide imo

[barren valley]

I use it so often

[frozen shell]

Same

[pseudo stone]

They're changing it in the next patch, I believe

[safe barn]

I just never use glide enough because I’m too used to HK combat

[empty sierra]

i just had to get used to double jump then glide, i guess its useful to have an option to glide immediately

[tawdry flare]

it looks like the Pale King... that's interesting...

[empty sierra]

but yea it also messed me up on wisp thicket not knowing why my double jump wasnt working soometimes

[frozen shell]

Thats why i call it the monarchs crest

[barren valley]

whoa that looks so cool

[empty sierra]

why dont they just have a tutorial for these mechanics? same with the taunt and down dash i found those out AFTER i finished the game 😭

[barren valley]

I hope they add cool crests in dlc

[frozen shell]

I really hope its in a dlc where Hornet accepts her wyrm half

[empty sierra]

yeaa we barely get any wrym hornet action

[safe barn]

Her hunter crest has a wyrm crown

[empty sierra]

its always about her weaver side

give her soul abilities

[frozen shell]

Because she seems to have sided with the weavers into being more weaver then wyrm

[empty sierra]

yea i guess

but would be fun

[safe barn]

Don’t know if she’s able to use soul fully. Seems to only extend to her silk and replenish it

[frozen shell]

Which is interesting, the weavers must not have been happy their queen mated with a wyrm

Tried to mould Hornet into being only weaver and become their queen

[empty sierra]

werent they disappointed in hornets memory? probably had general resentment towards her

[raven cove]

I mean I don’t know why they wouldn’t be happy

[tawdry flare]

were they? just seems like they were teaching her

[raven cove]

They have a general issue reproducing PK was able to circumvent that

[empty sierra]

idon remember the dialogue exactly but there was some tension/disappointment there

[frozen shell]

They taught her to use silk to “prove you are more weaver then wyrm”

[empty sierra]

and then they disappeared and left her alone

[raven cove]

They wanted to raise her as a Weaver yes

[frozen shell]

That one room in the cradle proves weaver dna existed elsewhere

[raven cove]

That doesn’t mean they were upset that Herrah had a child

[frozen shell]

Like some were 1/8 weaver or whatever

[frozen shell]

No but upset it was with a wyrm

[raven cove]

Yes but it is established that there are no pure blooded Weavers

[empty sierra]

yea but it can be interpreted as them generally being resentful and trying to force her into something

[raven cove]

They can only mate with other species

[tawdry flare]

yeah, weavers are all female so its kind of hard to make more pureblooded weavers so a wyrmblooded weaver would be kinda good for them i think

[frozen shell]

Because there are no male weavers

Yeah exactly

[raven cove]

And even then seem to have an issue reproducing

[empty sierra]

lace isnt a weaver right?

just made out of silk like a unique species

[tawdry flare]

she is a Silk Being

[raven cove]

Hornet says PK was able to overcome that limitation or something to that effect

[frozen shell]

Yeah entirely out of silk

[tawdry flare]

the only other Silk Beings are Phantom and maybe Eva but idk much abt her

[raven cove]

Anyway as far as mates go you’re not going to do better than a Wyrm idk why they’d be upset

[obsidian quail]

i love the Weavers

[frozen shell]

I imagine eva was the first attempt?

[obsidian quail]

whoops didn’t mean to reply to that

[tawdry flare]

eva was the Weaver's attempt to create a Higher Being

[safe barn]

Isn’t her ability to replenish silk directly related to her being half wyrm?

[obsidian quail]

thinking of getting a Weaver tattoo, any cool lore iconography?

[empty sierra]

also i dont get lace and gms relationship, lace seems to think herself as a disappointment and thinks her mothers not proud of her? but then its shown gms clearly cares for her in act 3

[frozen shell]

But was too weak and became “the disgraced child”

[raven cove]

Sort of yes

[tawdry flare]

Lace has crippling self-esteem issues

[frozen shell]

The weaver doors are neat

[obsidian quail]

well that’s just miscommunication

[raven cove]

Her Wyrm heritage is what makws Hornet’s silk similar to GMS’

[frozen shell]

Or like the hunter’s crest

[obsidian quail]

and lace has a complex

[tawdry flare]

No, that's Phantom

[empty sierra]

how would she have those unless gms just didnt show any affection towards her and just did a full 180 in the end

is she ass at parenting?

[frozen shell]

The harp says they locked the child into iron, AND its found in the same weavenest as eva

[tawdry flare]

everyone knows Higher Beings suck at parenting

[raven cove]

GMS is ass at everything

[tawdry flare]

Okay Hold On Eva was not made by GMS if that's what you meant

[safe barn]

Idk PK may be the goat

[empty sierra]

nah imagine hallownest and pharloom if their rulers werent contenders for worst parents in history

[obsidian quail]

if there are no GMS haters in the world it means Light is no longer with us

[tawdry flare]

true. Can't imagine a better parent

[tropic maple]

talking about an ending
||I love love love love love the sister of the void ending, I love the knight so much and see him come in and save hornet made me cry, this boy is meant to be hollow, to be the perfect vessel, and yet in this moment it shows his care and love for hornet, I found that so beautiful considering everything he is meant to be and what he is apart of (the abyss) and yet he got to show love, I found it so beautiful||
(yes i know tk is genderless i still like to call him my boy)

[tawdry flare]

what boy

[raven cove]

tbf he wasn’t really trying to be a parent

[frozen shell]

No the weavers made her

[empty sierra]

you misgendered tk BIG MISTAKE

[safe barn]

Exactly and even so an idea was instilled perchance

[tawdry flare]

Oh Ok I misread somewhere then

[raven cove]

I think if he had a normal child under better circumstances he’d nail the whole parenting thing

[obsidian quail]

we found the other side of Light Yagami’s coin

[raven cove]

Just like he nailed everything else my GOAT

[frozen shell]

Its also interesting how other civilizations existed in pharloom before gms, and she just royally fucked them all over

[tawdry flare]

Gods tend to do that

[safe barn]

Seems to be less about GMS and more about the citadel in this case

[frozen shell]

Verdania is so tragic

[raven cove]

My goat PK didn’t

[frozen shell]

I suppose

[tawdry flare]

he LITERALLY did

[raven cove]

Yet another point to him over that fraud GMS

[empty sierra]

what was the conductors/citadels relationship with gms idont undersatnd that either

[raven cove]

No he did not

[safe barn]

They kept her asleep

[tawdry flare]

he is entirely responsible for the Radiance's actions let's be real

[obsidian quail]

did GMS fuck them over? because she wasn’t even the one who established the citadel

[raven cove]

The MOTH TRIBE did PK was actually really nice to his neighbors

[tawdry flare]

I will give you that he was nice to the mantises

[empty sierra]

but they fell to age and she woke up again?

[safe barn]

I mean I blame the radiance idk about you 🤷

[raven cove]

No the Moth Tribe are PK did nothing wrong Seer herself blames them

[frozen shell]

So what gms made the weavers, forced them into servitude, they sealed her in the citadel and escaped, gms threaded the land?

[tawdry flare]

She is faultless

[obsidian quail]

how is PK responsible besides being the coolest god around every bug wanted to get behind

[safe barn]

She slowly started haunting them over time it seems

[safe barn]

You know what she did

[obsidian quail]

Hollow Knight is really just PK suffering from success

[raven cove]

It was the Moths who defected Seer calls them fickle PK never asked them to do that it was also the Moths who actively tried to kill her PK has no part in that

[empty sierra]

also she seems to still be asleep wen you challenge her?

[safe barn]

Poor Myla

[empty sierra]

way after some conductors died and fell ill

[polar latch]

I'm so sad poop town got cut </3

anyways the fayforn is totally a moth right

[raven cove]

He was also nice to the shrumals and the moths and greenpath and later on deepnest and he also tried being nice to the hive and was nice enough to give them space after they rejected him

[frozen shell]

What about that backer’s lion town

[empty sierra]

wtf is a fayforn

[tawdry flare]

no theyre a funny creature

[polar latch]

oh shit that never made it in did it

[raven cove]

PK didn’t intentionally fuck anyone over and was by all accounts a good king

[polar latch]

thing that gives you the double jump

[safe barn]

What bilewater exists?

[obsidian quail]

he’s pushing the PK agenda and i’m buying it

[tawdry flare]

he messed Unn up and that's unforgivable

[frozen shell]

Well the fayforn is 100% a pale being

[empty sierra]

idk it kinda looked like one but also could be smthn else

[raven cove]

He literally didn’t though?

[obsidian quail]

that was White Lady and a happy wife means happy life

[polar latch]

there was a town full of muddy shells that look suspiciously like dookie in a trailer

[safe barn]

Maybe be more civilised and get with the program

[blissful harbor]

wooly aphid

[raven cove]

PK and Unn had an agreement

[tawdry flare]

huntereyebrow

[frozen shell]

Okay ALSO crustaceans are considered bugs

[polar latch]

i think fayforn is a moth personally, there's really nothing else it can be

[frozen shell]

I swear some of those coral dudes are shrimp

[empty sierra]

screenshot pls

[tawdry flare]

puppy

[raven cove]

He was allowed to build a road through her lands and Greenpath remained her territory he had no power over it

[raven cove]

They has no quarrel

[craggy smelt]

the bugs of the sea...

[safe barn]

I swear the only actual pale being in this game is the stag

[frozen shell]

Some text in mount fay mentions a pale being will decide your fate if you reach the peak

[obsidian quail]

is PK your favorite Hollow Knight character?

[raven cove]

Yes

[tawdry flare]

have you considered that he can see the future and knew exactly what he was eventually doing to the existing civilizations by moving

[blissful harbor]

deja vu

[raven cove]

What is it you are suggesting he did

[muted lantern]

Very disappointing lack of lobster lancer in coral tower

[polar latch]

yeah but this thing literally has the same eyes as the seer + it's extremely powerful/mystical and it's like. totally a moth

[tawdry flare]

Destroy The Entirety Of Hallownest

[raven cove]

Because like nothing bad happened to anyone as a direct result of PK’s actions

[safe barn]

Hey guys PK knew what the ending of HK had to be have you not seen aot?

[obsidian quail]

PK is a tragic character who tried to work with what he had

[frozen shell]

What was the non coral and ant boss for the hearts btw

[polar latch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/663739308712132638/1415753481217900744/image.png?ex=68c45aad&is=68c3092d&hm=198dca04aa442d0fc2e335a81b5d8b9319e6bf36fa61aeef96d4a9a9fc33a51b&

[obsidian quail]

nothing was his fault inherently

[raven cove]

But that includes his own territory he would have no interest in letting that happen in fact he desperately fought against it

[polar latch]

I'm so sad poop hermit is gone </3

[raven cove]

He was prescient not omniscient

[safe barn]

This would be so funny if it was the dlc

[tawdry flare]

No, he's Stupid

[polar latch]

shitsong....

[raven cove]

Don’t say that about my goat…

[empty sierra]

stand up, vessel

[obsidian quail]

it can be said that PK intruded onto Hallownest because of his desire for a kingdom but that’s just his Wyrm nature and no one was worse for it

[safe barn]

Exactly can’t blame a wyrm for being a wyrm

[obsidian quail]

the moths were having a great fucking time clearly they turned their backs on their OG

[raven cove]

PK was extremely intelligent and within the narrative of the game is described as basically having done everything right he failed only due to factors entirely outside of his control

[polar latch]

unironically this guy showing up in the dlc would be so hype

[empty sierra]

should've seen it coming

[raven cove]

The main them of the game is nothing lasts forever he failed because he was fighting an impossibke battle from the get go

It was still an incredible attempt

[obsidian quail]

did Mr Mushroom imply Hornet will get prescience at some point?

[spark valve]

pk's flaw was hubris

[tawdry flare]

so what you're saying,.. is that he's Stupid

[empty sierra]

not so intelligent from the extremely intelligent being

[obsidian quail]

zippius ur baiting

[safe barn]

PK gave us the best charm in the game

[spark valve]

which is really fun for a god

[polar latch]

kinda sad we never saw PK in the red memory

[empty sierra]

deadbeat father

[tawdry flare]

Not entirely

[raven cove]

I know zip’s baiting but I always have to defend my goat even if it’s bait

[frozen shell]

He wasn’t present in Hornet’s life, her upbringing was the result of 3 queens

[polar latch]

no you're actually so right its entirely in character

[blissful harbor]

we saw everyone important to hornet

[safe barn]

Least obvious mothkin

[raven cove]

So you’re saying he should have just let it happen?

That is like the only alternative there

[polar latch]

genuinely upset unironically that there is NOTHING zote related in this game

[obsidian quail]

wtf would zote be doing over there

[limpid summit]

I’m doing the cursed ending and I didn’t know Greyroot sings but has no needolin dialogue

[empty sierra]

if he coulds see the future why didnt he pick the knight in the first place 🗿

[polar latch]

and no followup on bretta either

[tawdry flare]

Has he considered talking to the Radiance

[obsidian quail]

do u watch Dune

[frozen shell]

She also called PK an idiot in the wingsmold entry

[polar latch]

idk doesn't he just like Leave at some point

[obsidian quail]

or read Dune

[empty sierra]

ok point taken

[tawdry flare]

exactly and Hornet is Smart

[safe barn]

This I didn’t need to go on a fetch quest for 3 hearts if the shamans just listened to the 57 precepts of zote they would have figured it out

[polar latch]

idk if any one hollow knight character would show up in silksong and not be out of place it'd be zote

[raven cove]

1 TK isn’t pure either 2 he wasn’t omniscient 3 even if he functionally was there is precedent for Void messing with magical sensory abilities

[tawdry flare]

ignoring that she's incorrect in the entry but

[empty sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-does-he-know-gif-26833694

[raven cove]

Hornet calls him stupid while ignoring the fact that he was actually entirely successful in that particular endeavour

[polar latch]

also trobbio HAS to have some connection to the Grimm troupe right?? like he looks Like That and talks about the dying flames of a kingdom

[tawdry flare]

oh yeah? what abt the collector huh

exactly.

[polar latch]

y'know how bell beast saves your ass during the bell eater fight? yeah zote does that in the true ending

[empty sierra]

wtf happened to collector or his kind or whatever

[safe barn]

Gave us a map of the Grubbs so kind of them

[tawdry flare]

NO!!! He's awesome and Grimm isn't

[empty sierra]

any mention or reference?

[raven cove]

I mean yeah he probably could have but something tells me she wasn’t in the mood for a rational conversation

[tawdry flare]

the collector is a failed Kingsmould

[polar latch]

trobbio kicked out of Grimm troupe because Grimm is a little homophobic

[empty sierra]

wtf is a kingsmould

[craggy smelt]

that's from the first game, plenty of info on them there

[craggy smelt]

unless you're talking about some other collector

[empty sierra]

ooh right

[raven cove]

Why does Hornet call Wingsmoulds crude constructs they’re a hell of a lot more impressive than any of the dogshit constructs in Pharloom

[empty sierra]

no im talking about the OG collector you fight in hk

is there more?

[polar latch]

wait can you get a journal entry from them in the red memory??

[empty sierra]

she a hater

[raven cove]

Wingsmoulds are literally Void robots with soul electromagnets at their core that’s cool as hell

[safe barn]

We kill them in HK?

[raven cove]

Self repair mechanism

[obsidian quail]

do Wyrms have faces in their original form?

[empty sierra]

yea i jus meant more lore about him or smthn

[tawdry flare]

back OFF my goat second sentinel

[empty sierra]

but i guess i didnt know much from the og game either

[obsidian quail]

didn’t mr mushroom imply should be getting some prescience?

Hornet is actually a very cracked combination

[empty sierra]

its wrapped up alr apparently

[craggy smelt]

no, they were a unique creature born from a weird situation

[blissful harbor]

are they really

[polar latch]

I'm also a little sad we never saw a follow-up to stuff like whatever the hell a grubberfly is, or uh. no yeah that's really it

[raven cove]

Void robots imprinted with Essence using Soul magnets he literally incorporates everything into making them

[craggy smelt]

I think Hornet just doesn't like her dad very much

[spark valve]

cogwork dancers tho

[raven cove]

SS suggests that imprinting Void is like insanely difficult and PK was successful in that

[safe barn]

Oh no we got a everything we could about him in HK they’re a defective kingsmould that went on the run kidnapping Grubbs they were intelligent somehow and were obsessed with them

[blissful harbor]

i mean they’re impressive fs, but pharloom has silk powered giant bots, that are pretty damn good
and dancers, and whole like species of machines basically

[spark valve]

hornet is on some copium for sure

[empty sierra]

aah i didnt know all that thanks

[obsidian quail]

where does it suggest that? i missed

[raven cove]

PK could make something like that in his sleep

[blissful harbor]

the glaze is crazy

[raven cove]

That same journal entry

[tawdry flare]

Pharloom's constructs also aren't even made by a god

[safe barn]

I swear this has nothing to do with SS

[raven cove]

Working with Void is just a completely different ballpark

[spark valve]

made by creations of creations of one

[polar latch]

wait for real is there a journal entry for the wingmoulds??

[tawdry flare]

shh

[obsidian quail]

we never got to see GMS in her prime

and Weavers are pretty impressive

[safe barn]

Just a glaze off about moths and wyrms

[empty sierra]

nah bro light just spreading his gospel about PK

[raven cove]

GMS in her prime is not holding a candle to the pale goat

[polar latch]

we never get to see like anything in its prime in these games that's the point. except the goat dung defender

[obsidian quail]

yes but PK’s prime was talked about more

[safe barn]

What about palestag ehhh?

[empty sierra]

shakra seems to be in her prime

[obsidian quail]

we don’t know anything about GMS

[polar latch]

shakra just watched her mom die bro she's got something going on

[empty sierra]

she still slayin

[polar latch]

yeah I wish there was a bit more of info regarding gramma silksong

[tawdry flare]

it's okay she's got her lover (hornet) to comfort her

[polar latch]

now that I can agree with

[obsidian quail]

zippius we have no info beyond she made Weavers pre sleep

[spark valve]

palestag ain't nothin

[kind imp]

she has potential to get as thicc as her master

[polar latch]

grand mother silk made me do a double take

I knew she was a god but I didn't know she'd look like That

[empty sierra]

factual

[polar latch]

hummina hummina

[safe barn]

Honestly I really hope dlc is more challenging and actually goes in depth about these characters because as much as I love hollow knight I worry that it sometimes feels shallow

[empty sierra]

MORE CHALLENGING? ARE YOU IN TOP 3 SPEEDRUNNERS OR SMTHN

[obsidian quail]

what’s an example of shallow

[raven cove]

The pale goat can manipulate essence to a ridiculous degree something she’s never established to be able to do he can grant sapience to an entire population at once instead of to pharlids piecemeal his soul control is way above hers seriously the shit this guy was cooking in WP is unlike anything this fraud could do he casually makes a charm that can generate infinite soul whereas grand mother fraud is desperate for every last piece of soul infused silk he successfully tamed the void and was so bright that if put in the same situation she was in act 3 it couldn’t even touch him and above all else he was actually a great king who was nice to his neighbors and loved by his subjects not a maniac who was imprisoned by beings she created and later had to mind control

[polar latch]

i hope the dlc brings back the full coral area from the trailers

[safe barn]

No I mean individual bosses

[kind imp]

noticed a couple of wyrm skelly's in the background. want more info on them too

[tawdry flare]

i need more difficulty (NOT Savage Beastfly 2 difficult, First Sinner & Lost Lace difficult)

[empty sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/better-call-saul-chuck-mcgill-chicanery-breakdown-gif-25422432

[safe barn]

I do not want another high halls

[obsidian quail]

he is making points

[tawdry flare]

I NEED A HARDER HIGH HALLS! I FIRST TRIED IT AND I LIKED IT!!! GIVE ME MORE!!!

[empty sierra]

PK glaze im in enemy territory

[polar latch]

rejuvenating verdania and the sands of karak would go so hard

[obsidian quail]

can u remind me what it was about PK’s light with the Void, i vaguely remember

was it godseeker who said that

[safe barn]

This has to be the comment of an insane person

[tawdry flare]

i HAD SIX MASKS AND NO DOUBLE JUMP!!! I WAS HIGH ON VENOM FLEA BREW!!!!!

[obsidian quail]

i first tried it to because me and Shakla tag teamed those scrubs

[empty sierra]

you can bring shakra to high halls?

[raven cove]

PK is described as being so bright it was physically painful to even look at him and is lumped in with Rad into rhe nebulous category of “lights”, in the Abyss we see the Void can be pacified by even Lumafly light (which power the lighthouses)

[tawdry flare]

SHAKRA CAN HELP YOU THERE???

[obsidian quail]

i was like wtf what are u doing here

[safe barn]

I swear it might be the way devs wanted you to do it

[polar latch]

SHAKRA CAN HELP YOU IN HIGH HALLS WHERE AND HOW AND WHEN

[empty sierra]

i was struggling so hard

[polar latch]

in the arena before the conductor??

[obsidian quail]

wow

[empty sierra]

i mean high halls is pretty ok, maybe just a tiny bit more difficult

[polar latch]

oh right so unravelled is bullshit right

[empty sierra]

but holy shit bilewater and coral tower are unbearable

[obsidian quail]

i’m actually buying the agenda

[safe barn]

High halls is annoying

[tawdry flare]

its kinda annoying but its fine

[polar latch]

I didn't mind coral tower

[empty sierra]

probably varies a lot by our builds

[polar latch]

past the shortcut it's not bad

[tawdry flare]

I loved coral tower

[empty sierra]

and situation when we encountered those

[safe barn]

Coral tower was fine it was getting the journal entries that was a pain I just wanted to beat whatever his name was

[raven cove]

Yes buy the agenda PK has been unfairly hated on for years when actually he’s clearly the best character in the entire HK universe

[obsidian quail]

i think u have to finish her questline before u go, that’s what i did

[raven cove]

He’s also… actually a character! Something GMS isn’t

[empty sierra]

ok thats the only fact youve said about PK

thats true

[safe barn]

So ummm don’t go to the white palace you won’t like what you see

[raven cove]

I’ve only been saying facts

[polar latch]

iirc you get them all after you beat Khan?

[empty sierra]

but its more gms fault they shouldve established her more

[raven cove]

His death is part of what makes his character so compelling

[safe barn]

No way?? Really?? I farmed that area for no reason

[polar latch]

yeah Grammy Silk should have been Present

[polar latch]

so did I and I am only going off of one thing a friend said happened to her so idk

[kind imp]

except maybe the ||Jellyfish|| things

[polar latch]

like even just a small glimpse in the beginning like we got of THK

[obsidian quail]

i’ve been wanting a HK tattoo for awhile but i was waiting for SS to come out, what should i get

[polar latch]

Also really sad we never got any followup on the godhome ending in HK (unless it's part of the true ending which I haven't done yet)

[polar latch]

kings brand

[safe barn]

Save your money for the shit hermit in the dlc

[empty sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/the-radiance-hollow-knight-pale-king-watch-your-tone-watch-your-tone-mf-gif-25105189

[polar latch]

ignore what I said this is better

[raven cove]

I back King’s Brand

[obsidian quail]

i was thinking the Weaver effigy or Kings Brand

[safe barn]

Dream nail?

[polar latch]

get a tattoo of zote

[raven cove]

Don’t get the mark of those pathetic spiders

[empty sierra]

the knights head is the most iconic tho

[obsidian quail]

uhh Weavers are my goats

[raven cove]

Get the mark of the glorious white wyrm

[obsidian quail]

do Wyrms shit on them, yes

[polar latch]

yeah but kings brand will be noticable to those who Played The Game

[safe barn]

57 precepts

[limber condor]

||finished it||, sad because the ||true ending|| is not more obvious to me.

[obsidian quail]

but the Weavers are goated

[polar latch]

lost garmond made me cry

[raven cove]

Wyrms are just cooler

[safe barn]

But they’re in Deepnest

[polar latch]

i miss garmond so much already

[obsidian quail]

i have always found them so cool, was desperate to see them get expanded in SS

[raven cove]

KE is the best area in HK

[obsidian quail]

Wyrms do out aura farm

[polar latch]

AND ZAZA LYING NEXT TO HIS CORPSE IS SO SAD

[obsidian quail]

i wanna see a full on Wyrm in game

[raven cove]

you and I both 😔

[raven cove]

Sadly they are probably all dead

Bardoon says they’ve gone extinct

[polar latch]

we DO have memories...

[safe barn]

We don’t have enough characters that expo dump like in HK

[polar latch]

maybe we find a character who's so old they've seen, or even fought a wyrm...

[polar latch]

cuz hornet talks and doesn't have time for bullshit lmao

[empty sierra]

thats a cool asf idea

[polar latch]

or who IS one??? like a pale king situation but like. he's chill idk.

[raven cove]

It is a very sad thing as well, Bardoon says the world itself is smaller in their absence, for where a Wyrm lives, thralls gather and the world is forever changed, and in death, they are only reborn to rule those tremendous kingdoms for eternity

[obsidian quail]

are the Wyrms themselves or just Wyrms in that form?

was PK a dying breed regardless of form

no one gets glazed like Wyrms

[raven cove]

I think narratively it makes more sense to think he’s referring to Wyrms in general

[safe barn]

Can’t wait for the knight is the pale king theory to be revived but that’s just a theory

[raven cove]

Mister Mushroom says something similar

[obsidian quail]

that being said GMS has the best Higher Being design and no one can take that away from her

[raven cove]

There are plenty of characters who have seen one, including Hornet herselt, but I don’t think anyone could survive a fight with one

[polar latch]

she's almost as hot as the radiance

[raven cove]

I do like GMS’ design unfortunately

But PK will always have my heart

[safe barn]

Sad that her entrance was essentially just a copy of radiance

[polar latch]

underestimating the goat dung defender

[tawdry flare]

The Radiance is not ""hot""

[raven cove]

DD was literally employed by a Wyrm

He was one of his biggest glazers too

[polar latch]

i am a stronger person than you

[raven cove]

And Ogrim is indeed the goat

[tawdry flare]

That felt very personal

[raven cove]

He is extremely strong, but let’s be real here

[polar latch]

every time I tame a dung beetle in ark I name it Ogrim

[raven cove]

Against a Wyrm he ain’t doing shit (pun intended)

[polar latch]

Good.

[polar latch]

Dung Defender activating his Dookie Devastator attack and the wyrm is vaporized

Fecal Flayer. Poop Power. uh

Shitstorm...

[raven cove]

You know since we’re here I’ll ask you to induldge an old crackpot theory of mine

So we know GMS can empower beings with her (Soul-based) Silk right

And we know Silk can be used to extend a bug’s lifespan

And in retrospect this also ties in nicely with the Sanctum, where Soul Master tried using Soul to live forever, something we now know is possible (although his methods were very flawed)

[polar latch]

oh that reminds me, Groal is totally the same species of bug as Soul Master right??

[raven cove]

idk about same species

[polar latch]

eighth cousin twice removed

[raven cove]

SM is the same species as the husks probably

[spark valve]

definitely not

[raven cove]

But Groal is also a wizard

[spark valve]

at most they're both bloated through use of soul

[craggy smelt]

i actually thought the stilkin might be fleas at first, beacuse their homes looked like the wagons of the fleas
but maybe they're just somewhat similar shells

[polar latch]

oh yeah true

[safe barn]

Groal has 2 more legs

[empty sierra]

i just realized we never once hear hornet say SHAW

[raven cove]

A long time ago a friend of mine brought up that at the start of the WD fight, Ogrim has a pale glow and seems to have Soul particles coming off him - what if PK was able to empower his knights in a similar vein to GMS

[polar latch]

stilkin are probably just mosquitos

[craggy smelt]

i don't know that they're meant to evoke any particular bug

[polar latch]

oh shit this could be peak

[craggy smelt]

Groal reminds me of a frog - truly one of the most horrible enemies a bug could face

[polar latch]

Oh shit would that make the infection the radiances version of this???

[raven cove]

Well that’s a bit different

[polar latch]

a twisted empowerment

i guess I specifically mean the infection overdrive in stuff like the infected crossroads

[raven cove]

Lifeblood can also empower stuff though SS demonstrates this has some bad side effects

Those never manifested in HK I wonder why

[tawdry flare]

-# amlost like ssone kind of...., retcon

[raven cove]

Must have been the wind

[safe barn]

No please

[polar latch]

lifeblood was outlawed in hallownest, so there was very little of it. Joni died probably because of it even???

[safe barn]

But yea obviously they just added a lot to the way lifeblood works here

[raven cove]

But yeah tl;dr now that we know soul enhancement is definitely a thing I think PK was juicing his knights up on Soul roids

[empty sierra]

damn that gifs kinda flashy