sk-lore

[iron whale]

Dude are you seriously trying to say hornet isn't half weaver

Lmfao

[whole holly]

in HK not all Spiders are Weavers

[iron whale]

Just watch the first sinner cutscene bro

[whole holly]

when did i say that? stop misrepresenting everything i say

[terse warren]

It's possible she stayed in Deepnest until she reached an age enough to train, then trained, then went to White Palace

[iron whale]

Weavers are spiders that were given power by gms

[terse warren]

I'm not the biggest fan of 3 queens either but it needs to work somehow

[iron whale]

They then rebelled against gms and escaped her thrall, and gms wants to reclaim them because silk is getting scarce

[frozen hornet]

i think it might be true tho
the huntress tells hornet "it's fitting of a spider to talk about children devouring their mother"

[warm ocean]

||it's exactly like this I think. It's even displayed like that in red memory in that exact order||

[spark valve]

Herrah is aware the weavers are overbearing to say the least, she has a motivation to get her out of deepnest some of the time

[frozen hornet]

it's basically shared custody, some time in deepnest with mom, sometimes in the white palace with dad, but since dad is probably too busy, step-mom takes charge

[iron whale]

Dad is too busy ordering 10000 buzzsaws

[frozen hornet]

and making a kingdom that actually stands strong even after his death

[inland flower]

just finished act3 ending, absolutely worth it

[frozen shell]

I love how the pale king doesn’t get any mention in the red memory

[inland flower]

i thought he would in the palace section but apparently not

[frozen hornet]

he barely does have any at all, i found one mention of him in the journal entried where hornet talks about "my father's kingdom"

[whole holly]

yeah, Herrah is considered beast and spider in first game , then weaver in second game, this is so frustrating, game seems to have retconned Spiders and Weavers, because Midwife and Deeplings are separate from Weavers, SS completely ignores everything

[frozen shell]

It just shows how he never had a presence in hornet’s life

[inland flower]

and how hornet may have even actively avoided him?

[frozen hornet]

i think herrah is still a weaver tho
but in deepnest she rules over both weavers and spiders

[inland flower]

because afaik hornet wasn't very satisfied with his whole ordeal

[frozen shell]

Well from the start the weavers tried to convince hornet to ignore her wyrm side and just be a weaver

[iron whale]

Again, herrah is both a spider and a Weaver. Weaver is more of a trait than being. A Weaver is a spider who got powers from gms

[inland flower]

yeah, speaking of baby hornet is so cute

the memory was very interesting

[frozen hornet]

look at her

[whole holly]

it makes sense that Weavers have culture of their own, and are Spiders given abilities by GMS, but we never see herrah weave or have weaver abilities in HK, SS straight up forgets this

[frozen hornet]

i would die for her

[inland flower]

so would the knight, well

[warm ocean]

would it make sense to say that all weavers are spiders, but not all spiders are weavers?

[grand kayak]

So anyway. Mr. Mushroom is peak

[iron whale]

Knight isn't alive in the first place

[frozen hornet]

definitely

[iron whale]

Yes that is very clear from first sinner

[frozen hornet]

still have no idea what his deal is

[whole holly]

yes, it is only explanation

[warm ocean]

cool, I understand everything now lol

[inland flower]

mr mushroom is weird yeah

[frozen hornet]

hornet seems to mention that mr mushroom is some herald of "great change or dragedy"

[inland flower]

apologies, T H E H E R A L D

[whole holly]

but why doesn't herrah display weaver abiliites or be refered to as weaver in HK? this is annoying

[warm ocean]

becouse herrah was The Beast, which was a higher title

[grand kayak]

When woukd herrah have time to display weaver abilities. She's asleep the whole game

[inland flower]

herrah barely had any time to weave yeah

[whole holly]

i wish first game refereed to her as weaver or implied she was

[inland flower]

it would be somewhat understandable considering she's a spider, but not absolutely true

[whole holly]

really, everyone in Hallownest says it in disgust, hornet refered to born of Beast and Wyrm

[whole holly]

she is spider, not a weaver? how is hornet weaver then?

[inland flower]

as i said, not referred to that herrah ISNT a weaver so its just expanded in ss

[grand kayak]

I got the impression beast was more of a title than a classification for herrah

[warm ocean]

||yes it proves that hornet and herrah are weavers as well. In red memory it was said "Prove yourself more as weaver than a wyrm"||

[inland flower]

oh no need for spoilers in uh lore

[warm ocean]

it is exactly like that

I think

[whole holly]

i think PK being soul related god and Herrah being spider(maybe a weaver) unlocked weaver like abilities

[inland flower]

red memory does show us that herrah is a weaver and hornet, the weaver child so we dont know for sure if herrah wasnt already a weaver or unlocked it

[frozen hornet]

what exactly is happening here at the start?

[spark valve]

she's still weakened from her time in the rune cage

[inland flower]

also happens when void takes over in act 3, its to show she's weak yeah

[frozen hornet]

ic

[whole holly]

unlocked? how are weaver abilities unlocked without GMS?

[frozen hornet]

it's to explain why she go the "boss as a playable character" nerf XD

[grand kayak]

Tbh hornet is much more capable as a playable character than boss

[inland flower]

oh hell yes

either that or ghost is powerful as hell

[frozen hornet]

i wish i could have as many skills equipped tbh

counter + silk storm

[warm ocean]

ghost is much more powerfull than hornet lorewise

[inland flower]

if only i could tell yoyu

[pseudo zealot]

||"which our family is forever linked"|| ?? what does this mean

[inland flower]

vessels i believe

[frozen hornet]

i know there's a way, but i'd also like to keep default moveset

[grand kayak]

Hornet just should've used cogflies in her boss fight it would've over for the knight in greenparh

[teal shell]

i think herrah hides her “weaver” side or atleast kinda ignores it, plus to my knowledge i dont think anyone cared for deepnest nor its inhabitants enough to look into the identity of “herrah the beast”

[inland flower]

Ahh gotcha gotcha

[pseudo zealot]

ooh fr i forgot bout them

[warm ocean]

not only vessels I think it reffers to the void research in total

[spark valve]

shaman bind is one of the crest effects of all time

[whole holly]

White Lady is kind of hornet's Godmother

[inland flower]

ss takes place after hk, specifically embrace the void ending so she'd have to time travel

[grand kayak]

I really want to like that crest but I can't get past the heal

[whole holly]

yeah, possibly

[warm ocean]

why embrace the void?

[inland flower]

yeah because pk did a lot of void related stuff

[inland flower]

idk either, but it is confirmed.

[frozen hornet]

imagine healing above a gap

[frozen shell]

So gms is literally hornets grandmother right? Because all weavers are “daughters” of gms

[warm ocean]

by who?

[grand kayak]

Oh I'm aware I'm just shitposting about how nuts cogflies are

[obsidian quail]

i mean it seems like everyone knew she was a Weaver

[inland flower]

oh for sure

[frozen hornet]

yes
which means lace is her aunt

[inland flower]

combine that with ember flames and knight probably wouldn't survive (and silk knives skill)

[obsidian quail]

that’s symbolic

[grand kayak]

Hornets summon build is far better than the knights

[inland flower]

100%

[frozen shell]

Do we know why gms made lace? She was weak and frail, yet she still went through with her creation. The weavers even call her the disgraced child

[frozen hornet]

she wanted a daughter

[frozen shell]

She had the weavers

[whole holly]

is Eva also purely silk creation?

[grand kayak]

Is Eva not the disgraced child? GMS seems to actually care quite a lot about Lace

[frozen hornet]

now why was she unsatisfied with the weavers, not sure, but i think weavers desired freedom from her

[naive crag]

the weavers left her

[inland flower]

supposed to be a child made entirely of silk and wanted to make her entirely weaver i guess

[naive crag]

also maybe gms hurt the weavers? first sinners head is broken

[whole holly]

eva was made by weavers to create another higher being i think

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers turned on her

[warm ocean]

I think that being entirely made of silk doesn't clasify you as a weaver. Lace has no weaver powers

[frozen shell]

That makes more sense

So Eva was supposed to be like lace?

[inland flower]

which could be the reason why she's considered the disgraced child only because she was SUPPOSED to have those abilities, idk

[frozen shell]

Or was she the first test run

[spark valve]

eva was supposed to be like gms, the weavers made her not gms

[whole holly]

Phantom was first test run

[whole holly]

yea

[obsidian quail]

i’m pretty sure Lace predates Phantom

[frozen shell]

No because phantom is grey with age

[inland flower]

also guys i wanna know something, is the shade in abyss ending THK'S shade or ghost's shade, or entirely random?

[obsidian quail]

that doesn’t mean Lace isn’t older

[spark valve]

it is the knight's shade, the protagonist

[warm ocean]

it would make the most sense to be the ghost's shade

[obsidian quail]

it’s our goat the Knight aura farming

[inland flower]

because the shade has doubled horns like THK but is small like ghost's

[teal shell]

specifically the knights, hollow knights shade is bigger

[spark valve]

phantom could be grey with age because she hasn't been being sustained with silk

[inland flower]

but our knight has singled horns

lemme just share a pic rq

[inland flower]

OHH?

[teal shell]

theres a diff between the 2

[frozen shell]

Actually no Lace has to predate phantom, you can see her watching phantom be made if you needolin the tube in the organ

[grand kayak]

Kinda fucked up that they specifically locked Eva up in the most hidden confined area they could

[inland flower]

that makes sense ok

[obsidian quail]

the question we can’t answer is why the Weavers went so far to turn on GMS

[teal shell]

the knight and the hollow knights shades are pretty different and to my knowledge you cannot see the hollow knights shade in ss

[inland flower]

mhm yeah

[obsidian quail]

yeah THK does not appear in silksong

[frozen shell]

Also why the weaver’s went into the abyss

[inland flower]

thk isnt even mentioned in ss in the lore i believe

[grand kayak]

Tbh why did we kill ||the green prince. ||

[spark valve]

it could be as simple as finding her stifling

[frozen hornet]

he would have let himself die anyway

[inland flower]

the sinners road one?

[austere gate]

he couldnt let go, its a mercy kill

[frozen shell]

Do we know why gms even came to pharloom?

[frozen shell]

I didnt even do the pollen heart because i had his

[obsidian quail]

what’s your take on the First Sinner’s words

[austere gate]

strongly advise to complete his questline

[frozen hornet]

higher beings seem to have a desire to have a people/worshippers

[inland flower]

yeah i did act3 before that so i'll have to choose a new save and then finish the rest

[dawn bone]

why is there another ||fourth chorus|| in ||underworks||? chained up and all?

[austere gate]

oh so u can just replace one heart?

[zenith pelican]

hornet has that whole "i kill whoever stands in my way" philosophy, and guess what green prince did? (but it was unjust ngl since SHE stood in his way first)

[dawn bone]

wait multiple?

[frozen shell]

Apparently

[austere gate]

there are three, two are visible and one is hidden in the architects secret room

[inland flower]

architect makes those, but fourth chorus was entrapped in farfields. I assume he just ended up like that, and broke free but the architect never activated the other ones

[zenith pelican]

the architects just make multiple of those

[austere gate]

the fourth chorus is, well, the fourth

[spark valve]

there's a lot of ambiguity there in what specifically could be the lie and a lot of room for potential nuance
First Sinner could be saying the 'lie' is that they were divine, or that they were her daughters, potentially because of how they were created, or because she doesn't think gms actually regards them as daughters (which might also be why she made lace), etc

[austere gate]

theres 4 choruses, u beat the 4th

[dawn bone]

ohh peak, hope we will find some more lore abt it eventually, love the design tbf

[spark valve]

or a combination of a number of these

[dawn bone]

mhm guesed so :P

[inland flower]

oh hell yeah the design is nice

SPEAKING OF numbered individuals, why the hell is the sentinel second, who's the first and what happened to them

[teal shell]

i just wonder what hk ending is canon cus its gotta be between embrace the void and dream no more right

[dawn bone]

im at act 2 rn, exploring the citadel and just found them so i wanted to ask :P in case there was something important abt them!

[spark valve]

it's probably meant to be ambiguous between the two

[spark valve]

in the room where you fight second sentinel there are other deactivated ones, very plausible one of them is the first sentinel

[austere gate]

have u resolved his quest line? there is a location where theres a bunch of other sentinel scraps

[teal shell]

i guess i mean i could go either way but personally i just lean more towards embrace the void

[inland flower]

the architect is important, but the area around it is just lore significant

[zenith pelican]

probably dead

[austere gate]

it was an entire order

[grand kayak]

Was it not embrace the void + delicate flower than seems the most likely? ||since hornet knows about the flowers properties||

[inland flower]

i fought him and that was the end of that

[dawn bone]

ohh fair, is the architect a fight? cause i saw smth abt an architects crest?

[frozen shell]

So IS the delicate flower native to pharloom?

[spark valve]

not really

[austere gate]

well there are more sentinels in his combat chamber in high halls

[obsidian quail]

okay that makes sense, just to confirm did the Weavers put GMS to sleep/seal her?

[austere gate]

hes the second one

[spark valve]

even in that ending she hasn't seen the flower do anything

[obsidian quail]

that is what people were telling me earlier and i was kinda confused on the state of GMS throughout the timeline

[spark valve]

it seems that way, the snare setter is said to be a prototype so they probably used something similar to trap her, then constructed the citadel to keep her asleep

[teal shell]

i doubt delicate flower is the right one, hornet just knows of the flower because she was given one by the white lady, could just be wrong tho

[austere gate]

supposedly there is a long time between hk and ss, very feasible she has seen another kingdom rise and fall with void being averted by an everbloom

[zenith pelican]

hornet knows about the flower not from the delicate flower quest in HK, but from the white lady telling her so waaay before the events of hk, but delicate flower quest does seem most cannon anyways

[austere gate]

or maybe she just knew from the pale court

[spark valve]

knowing about the flower's properties does NOT mean having seen it in action, especially when we know she had contact with WL who was aware of their properties

[zenith pelican]

white lady told her about it

[spark valve]

and again, in the etv flower variant she doesn't see it happen

[inland flower]

oh the crest comes from a certain area, i'll say its not fighting the architect because they're just a shopkeeper, but yeah the architect has access to the area you can get it.

[austere gate]

u kno i completely forgot about that part

[zenith pelican]

how could you forget about the part with BABY HORNET?! 😭

[karmic dove]

lace lore pls

[frozen shell]

Oh yeah where is the shaman’s crest btw

[teal shell]

personally i feel like its embrace the void as the hollow knights shades does not appear and the shade lord fnaf menu screening during the cutscene

[inland flower]

by the way, everbloom and delicate flower are completely different! delicate is just a really fragile flower but everbloom is the completed part of it right

[spark valve]

super jump spot in the room the snail shamans are in

[spark valve]

no they're the same

[inland flower]

so just different names? ok then

[austere gate]

i was more pondering about why we didnt see pale king in her memories, its as if she had never actually met him despite having memories of white palace

[frozen hornet]

so the weavers built the citadel? not the bugs who came to worship GMS?

[frozen shell]

Sick thanks

[inland flower]

yeah but BABY HORNE-

[frozen shell]

Lost lace is honestly kind of a lame final boss

[teal shell]

false false false

[spark valve]

yes, the weavers built it, then the citadel caste came along, wiped them out, and kept it running to keep gms asleep

[austere gate]

citadel doesnt have any weaver architecture so i wouldnt assume so

[teal shell]

lace is a loved character in this household

[zenith pelican]

we could say delicate flower is at least the same species since it has similar properties, the only reason it's "delicate" could be due to the fact grey mourner held it for so long

[frozen shell]

A 3rd refight instead of something cooler, i would have even taken a refight with gms

[whole holly]

i thought that too, but if ze'mers species aren't in pharloom, how is everbloom given too us

[frozen shell]

Like narratively its cool, but conceptually its boring

[inland flower]

true, and then everbloom came fresh from a dream making it super strong

[spark valve]

[Hornet]:You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some.** It is church and cage both.[NPC]:Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule**

[inland flower]

hornet's dream

[spark valve]

plucked from Hornet's memory

[inland flower]

hornet specifically mentions she can reach it from her dream yeah

[dawn bone]

so the big 3 arent bosses? sounds good tbf

[zenith pelican]

are you genuinely talking about mr parental negligence and asking why he parental negligence'ed his daughter? 😭

[inland flower]

yep just the 4th

[teal shell]

i think its called an everbloom but it being called the delicate flower is more of an observation not the name

[frozen hornet]

i fully expected some "voided Silk" fight at the end
a bit unfortunate, true, but i'm sure we'll get something of the likes, some equivalent to absolute radiance

[dawn bone]

4th? thought they were 3 fellas

[frozen shell]

I thought it would be grandmother void

[whole holly]

reach delicate flower in hallownest knight planted?

[inland flower]

4th chorus! he's the only boss guy

[dawn bone]

i meant the architect and the others xd sorryy

[inland flower]

yeah no boss there! :p

[inland flower]

yeah 3x lace is annoying as hell

[radiant vale]

So for normal ending, i assume hornet absorbs the power of grand mother silk (A pale Higher being) and becomes a higher being herself right? And a pale one at that

[inland flower]

mhm

binds her power and becomes the new monarch

[zenith pelican]

i think there are 12 or more architects

[obtuse void]

what happened to the coral location?

[inland flower]

cogwork yep

[obsidian quail]

this was the shrine shaman right

[teal shell]

it probably makes her a full blown weaver and a full blown pale being rather than being half n half

[radiant vale]

well monarch in terms of power and not responsibility, she can just leave

[obsidian quail]

and i thought Lost Lace was cinema

[spark valve]

this is dialogue with mask maker for some reason

[obsidian quail]

but i understand not being pleased

[teal shell]

lost lace is cinema

[whole holly]

can someone answer this?

[inland flower]

i'd assume not, she mentions not being able to control that power given that her crest changes and her silk basically expands to the other end of your screen making it near impossible for her to control that power

[radiant vale]

also the weavers got genocided by the mind controlled citadel didnt they

[zenith pelican]

scrapped, the coral tower is not its standalone area rather than a place in the coral forest

[obsidian quail]

wow i talked to that guy so many times, how do u manage to get that dialogue

[spark valve]

they got wiped out by the citadel before they were mind controlled

[austere gate]

damn how, he never dropped any cool lore on me

[spark valve]

idk how you get it

[teal shell]

she gets the flower from a memory of the white lady giving one to her

[inland flower]

different flowers yep

[radiant vale]

her silk expanding just shows how much power shes getting not that she has to act out being a monarch, and grandmother silk was in pharloom just to get the weavers i assume

[radiant vale]

Ouch

[teal shell]

basically memory flower is fresh

[iron whale]

Gms wanted to reclaim weavers powers

[teal shell]

hk flower is old and decrepit

[frozen shell]

Especially since the last 2 laces are like top 3 hardest bosses

[inland flower]

she did speak to songclave guy telling him that she'd eventually fall to the same fate as GMS

[whole holly]

why does white lady give same flower to hornet , she refuses to take from knight?

[zenith pelican]

the same thing that happened to hornet probably happened to them, we can see cages that look similar to hornet's in the cradle which are probably the ones used to house other weavers

[radiant vale]

One funny thing is that hornet is basically another grandmother silk, a Pale Weaver

[obsidian quail]

i thought the Weavers created citadel, then left to do their own thing, then GMS woke up because the song ended and started enslaving the bugs via silk and told them to go catch anyone with Weaver heritage

[frozen hornet]

how did a race as powerful as the weavers get wiped out

[spark valve]

the weaver genocide and the weaver abduction are different events entirely

[inland flower]

white lady and hornet are 40x closer is 1 reason, 2nd is its a memory so hornet can literally just remember white lady

[iron whale]

The boss is called grand mother silk because it is literally hornets grandmother in a sense

[teal shell]

diff contexts behind it

[obsidian quail]

but the Weaver genocide happened before

[radiant vale]

yea same aspect but was there any mention as to if she was stuck there or anything?

[spark valve]

they can't reproduce and they were described as "fading first children," they were weakened

[zenith pelican]

propaganda

[empty sierra]

peak ending wtff

[iron whale]

Because gms is a god

[empty sierra]

hows that confirm godhome ending tho?

[spark valve]

The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown

[empty sierra]

couldnt this hapen with the true ending of hk as well?

[spark valve]

GMS didn't do it

[radiant vale]

erm theyre called higher beings 🤓

[empty sierra]

he joined the void there too

[inland flower]

most probably that she would succumb to the power yeah

[whole holly]

but WL refuses its because of it's nature, not because of relationship with knight

[iron whale]

No because knight doesn't merge/become shade lord in dnm. The ending highly implies etv

[frozen hornet]

maybe there just werent a lot of them

[spark valve]

yes it's meant to be ambiguous

[teal shell]

no hollow knight shade + shadelord blinking in

[storm spruce]

Where is Gilly at the end of the game?

[spark valve]

it doesn't confirm either ending exclusively

[radiant vale]

why does it feel like theres a war between pale beings and void beings, im pretty sure its implied in the white ladies memory flashback

[iron whale]

Only in etv does knight merge with the void

[inland flower]

ok yeah this is anothe reason yeah, but hornet is pale king's daughter so white lady knows of her nature

[teal shell]

it kinda does

[spark valve]

it doesn't

[empty sierra]

he doesnt? i remember after he and hk beat radiance they join the void and his cracked mask is shown

[iron whale]

It does

[spark valve]

it doesn't

[iron whale]

In dnm the knight just dies

[spark valve]

hornet is hallucinating or having visions before she passes out and she flashes visions of the siblings, in a way more concordant with dnm, and then the vgfocus, which is more concordant with the other, then it cuts back to reality and neither is there. It's meant to be ambiguous

[teal shell]

the shadelord appearing makes no sense if the knight hasnt became it, plus the lack of hollow knights shade, who isnt there for embrace the void

[empty sierra]

whats dnm

[iron whale]

Dream no more

[spark valve]

that is false

[obsidian quail]

man where is this dialogue coming from i swear i talked to every npc as much as i could hahaha

[inland flower]

i'd assume shadelord is just an amalgamation of every shade present in the radiance fight, knight and THK included in that.

[whole holly]

i mean flowers nature she says it is not godly, how does white lady have it, from grey mourner?

[empty sierra]

what? why would he die?

[spark valve]

that's from the conductor npc whose name I don't remember

[empty sierra]

what woukd kill him

[iron whale]

Shade lord is a god

[teal shell]

hornet hallucinating the shadelord wouldnt make sense if the shadelord didnt exist

[spark valve]

shade lord is the knight

[iron whale]

In etv yes

[radiant vale]

this is a good theory, its also why even multiple pale higher beings cant really "kill" the shade monarch

[inland flower]

grey mourner was never the source of the flower, just in posession of it. white lady however does know of the source to the flower and yeah

[spark valve]

it makes as much sense given that she never sees it in etv

[teal shell]

but your looking at it as an hallucination

[spark valve]

the cutscene is

[iron whale]

It's not a hallucination?

[spark valve]

the cutscene CLEARLY frames it as something not physically there

[whole holly]

so White Lady got it straight from grey mourner's homeland itself?

[teal shell]

the shadelord is the knight, the knight could be taking on the form of their normal shade so hornet recognises them

[radiant vale]

Cmon guys dont pull the "Its all in Le head" part

[iron whale]

Atp you're either ragebait ing or just arguing for the sake or arguing

[teal shell]

the blinks is the mask slipping

[whole holly]

she has strong connection with plants

[iron whale]

Genuinely lmao

[spark valve]

watch the cutscene it's so clearly communicated

shit flickers in and out of existene as hornet is passing out and about to drown

[obsidian quail]

ohhh that bug behind the curtain i actually do remember that now, where was it said that Weavers are sterile?

[inland flower]

makes me wonder how drowning in void would feel

[zenith pelican]

i'm not arguing against godhome being cannon, but i'm pretty sure the knight was shadelord since at least getting the voidheart, it only gathered the strength to gain focus by ascending in godhome (because godhome can do that)

[teal shell]

communicated by the knight carrying hornet and lace out of the abyss and placing her on the ledge is clearly communicated as a hallucination?

[iron whale]

Ah yes, the void tendrils coming to kill them but then getting stopped by the shade lord is DEFINETELY a hallucination and not what saved her and lace

[radiant vale]

its meant to be ambigious so theres many interpretations to it

[spark valve]

:I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task. [Hornet]:I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also it's victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.

[empty sierra]

yeah it looks more like hornet recognizing him as shadelord in her perception

[spark valve]

total straw man

[empty sierra]

i doubt he just flashes her back and forth with his true form and normal form lmao

[spark valve]

the knight is there, the stuff that flickers in and out of existence isn't

[inland flower]

yep

knight exists there for sure

[obsidian quail]

ohhh right, ur the best Tammo

[iron whale]

It's not a hallucination she's perceiving the knight as the shade lord or vice versa

[teal shell]

but then you include the hollow knights shade not being there for the cutscene it clearly is leaning towards embrace the void as in that ending the hk is “cured” and doesnt turn into a shade

[frozen hornet]

does that mean that hornet couldnt have a descendence?

[obsidian quail]

why do u think GMS created Lace, she seems to have a desire for children similar to White Lady right?

[spark valve]

it means it would be difficult

[spark valve]

she wants a child yeah

it's not impossible for weavers to reproduce, there are other part weavers captured on GMS's orders, it's just hard

[radiant vale]

isnt hornet a child between the pale king and hera? or am i missing something

[inland flower]

she is

[radiant vale]

how did hera have hornet then

[zenith pelican]

like i said, i'm not arguing against that, i'm only saying the knight didn't have to do pantheon 5 to become "the lord of shades" and that that already happens after getting the voidheart

[radiant vale]

or was it a one time situation with special circumstances

[teal shell]

its most likely the knight returning to that original form so hornet can recognise them and know shes safe in some way since she wouldnt know what the shadelord is, the blinking in and out is possibly the facade slipping as the knight is holding back its true face

[zenith pelican]

a deal with the pale king to become a dreamer

[spark valve]

weavers outside pharloom have found ways around that limitation, the way Herrah found was apparently to reproduce with the pale king

[teal shell]

imagine being in the void and the shadelord pulls up ud start tweaking like a mf, if that little fella from hallownest pulled up with its buddies youd atleast know whats going on

[iron whale]

Also the part where the tendrils are sliced is clearly implied to be done by the shade lord (reference to when he did that in etv)

[spark valve]

it didn't do that in etv

[teal shell]

slashes tendrils at radiance then leaves the funny bug in the trash pile

[radiant vale]

hmmm, the first sinner is a pale one too so doesnt that automatically make all weavers = pale beings?

[zenith pelican]

could be the knight just saying "yo sup look at my new fit" and telling her everything is in control since it's the shadelord now and it knows its powers

[radiant vale]

which kinda makes it weird when they say "A child between a pale one and a weaver"

[spark valve]

whatever ending canonicity arguments are dumb the obvious answer is it's ambiguous and it doesn't really matter what justifications you could make for why it could be one ending or the other because the point is that it could be either

[austere gate]

"can u please take ur friend we didnt invite her and shes making quite the scene down here"

[radiant vale]

yea this is probably the case, they probably do it intentionally

[zenith pelican]

yeah, sealed siblings is just as cannon as embrace the void and we should stop talking about it :D

[teal shell]

its so obviously leaning towards etv

[spark valve]

either being between dnm and etv

[iron whale]

If you're gonna argue, at least know what you're talking about

[spark valve]

etv is given exactly as much of an acknowledgement as dnm

[empty sierra]

what about the siblings? they never show up in the godhome ending and we dont know their fate, but they DO ascend with him in the dream no more ending

[teal shell]

they all disappear in dream no more

[warm ocean]

that's why dream no more is the true canon ending not embrace the void like everyone says

[spark valve]

yes
because the game is going out of its way to acknowledge both endings

[teal shell]

they curl up and poof away and the knights shell is left cracked on the ground

[empty sierra]

yeah i think it could be both endings

[iron whale]

Do you not remember all the siblings merging with the void in etv

[empty sierra]

theres things that point in both directions

[empty sierra]

i dont hmm

[obsidian quail]

the First Sinner isn’t pale i’m pretty sure

[spark valve]

💯

[obsidian quail]

she was just the first Weaver created by a Pale Higher Being

[radiant vale]

which pale higher being

[spark valve]

not necessarily the first created, just the first to rebel

[teal shell]

in dream no more the shades disappear, and whats left of the hollow knight and knight is the shattered shell of the knight on the ground, in embrace the void the shadelord comes a true being, destroys the radiance, and leaves the bug into the physical realm, its not completely unbelievable that the knight returned to the abyss after that ending

[zenith pelican]

they show up after beating pure vessel in pantheon 4 i think, so they're there, just not there to help the shadelord in etv

[obsidian quail]

Grand Mother Silk

[iron whale]

This Is just another clear pointer to etv and shade lord actually being there and not a hallucination

[radiant vale]

who is also a weaver....

[iron whale]

She's the queen of weavers

[empty sierra]

but hornet DOES say she witnessed the downfall of another land (hallownest obv) which would only make sense in the embrace the void ending right?

[radiant vale]

shes both pale and a weaver

[iron whale]

Everything points to etv but people just want to argue for the sake of arguing

[spark valve]

it makes sense with both endings because she saw the kingdom fall either way

[obsidian quail]

oh we classify Grand Mother Silk as a Weaver?

[iron whale]

No she's Weaver queen but not a weaver

[teal shell]

not seeing the shades curl up and dissipate in the etv and the shadelord escaping godhome clearly implies to me that the knight returned to the abyss to essentially start anew with the rest of its siblings

[austere gate]

honestly man

[iron whale]

She just made the weavers

[empty sierra]

you think she implied the fall BEFORE the evnets of HK?

[austere gate]

what the hell is a weaver

[obsidian quail]

i just thought she was the creator of Weavers

[radiant vale]

a weaver queen who is not a weaver?

[empty sierra]

like radiance taking over

[zenith pelican]

she witnessed the fall of the pale king and the rise of the infection, not the void taking over or something

[empty sierra]

true

[spark valve]

that is the kingdom's fall so yeah?

[iron whale]

Spider who was beefed up by gms

[obsidian quail]

God Queen

[radiant vale]

she is both a weaver and a pale one

[zenith pelican]

spider guys with big heads

[obsidian quail]

not a Weaver

[teal shell]

pale king is a wyrm not a traditional bug so its not entirely out of the realm of possibility

[obsidian quail]

but the creator of Weavers

[radiant vale]

its literally exactly like hornets situation, which is why she can so easily absorb her power and become a higher being

[teal shell]

hornet is basically the perfect thing to ascent to godhood

[austere gate]

im asking facetiously, the definition of what constitutes a weaver seems to be pretty blurry

[iron whale]

A Weaver isn't a being, a Weaver is a spider who gained sentience and godlike powers by gms

[obsidian quail]

i don’t think that’s right

borb

[radiant vale]

it gets really weird on which one to count when considering children with wyrm/pale ones/weavers/weaver queen etc

[obsidian quail]

GMS is never referred to as a Weaver

she just created the Weavers

[spark valve]

gms is 100% not a weaver herself

[radiant vale]

shes referred to as the weaver queen

[spark valve]

she is the queen of the weavers

[obsidian quail]

yes because she was the queen of Weavers

[teal shell]

a weaver queen not being a weaver makes sense, you dont need to be the same as everything else to rule them

[obsidian quail]

i can call myself Ant King if i have a buncha ants

[radiant vale]

a god who made weavers in her own image

[teal shell]

its not a mantis lords situation where they are literally mantises

[spark valve]

she didn't really make them in her image

[zenith pelican]

if they listen to you then yeah pretty much

[empty sierra]

would the knight save hornet in the case of godhome ending tho? since she had no part in defeating radiance there

[teal shell]

if the mantis lords were actually beetles it woildnt make them any less mantis lords

[spark valve]

it would be in character for it to save her in both endings

[radiant vale]

you know this is actually pretty ambigious with GMS being a weaver or not cuz they never show her face iirc?

[obsidian quail]

yes they loosely connected throughout the game

[obsidian quail]

dude ur the only one thinking it’s ambiguous

[teal shell]

the knight cares for hornet in some way especially since it comes to save hornet from the abyss in ss

[radiant vale]

ah yes the giant spider looking weaver is not a weaver

shes just a weaver queen thats completely seperate

[zenith pelican]

would you not help your fucking sister? who of all the people in your way actually helped you remember your past and embrace your true form?

[obsidian quail]

she doesn’t look like a Weaver

she created the Weavers

[teal shell]

if etv is canon i just wonder what happens to the hollow knight

[empty sierra]

why would showing the face be the determining factor of being a weaver 💀 are the millions of silk threads not enough 😭

[spark valve]

she doesn't look like a spider, she doesn't have the right number of limbs or the distinctive number of eyes

[radiant vale]

and the pale king doesnt look like a wyrm what does that mean

[obsidian quail]

the Pale king was literally referred to as a Wyrm

[empty sierra]

i guess

[obsidian quail]

and has a big ass Wyrm corpse

shell

they’re not the same

[teal shell]

pale king is a wyrm, he took a new form to rule and give true sentience to the bugs of hallownest

[zenith pelican]

damn, i forgot weavers had a white body, hair, and no face. she's obviously a weaver guys

[teal shell]

but the pale king is still a wyrm

its a different form

[radiant vale]

exactly what im saying

[teal shell]

the shadelord is all black and abyssy does this mean that its not actually still the knight

[radiant vale]

higher beings can probably easily change what they look like

[spark valve]

borb you tried to say she looked like a spider how does she look like a spider

[obsidian quail]

Borb what

[radiant vale]

she does use 6 needles which could indicate arms

[pseudo stone]

The Pale King literally had to reincarnate himself to change shape

[spark valve]

those are manipulated with her silk, not arms, we can see how many limbs she has

[teal shell]

its not uncommon in story telling for a godlike creature to create a race or species in their image when they are not related to them

[obsidian quail]

u can create a species and not be part of that species, u see how they came from Pharlids? GMS did not come from a Pharlid

[radiant vale]

just like how hornet grows 4 more arms in her cutscene as she becomes a weaver queen

[obsidian quail]

they are amped up ascended spiders

[spark valve]

I don't see any spider features here

[radiant vale]

symbolism bruh

[obsidian quail]

Borb

[honest thorn]

pretty sure she's a silk moth because of her similarities to the radiance

[teal shell]

she gets 6 arms in one of her attacks but thats about the only relation i see

[obsidian quail]

GMS did not come from a Pharlid

she is just a Pale Higher Being with Silk powers who created Weavers via giving it to Pharlids

[empty sierra]

what are the lore implications of laces ENORMOUS thighs?

[radiant vale]

yes but you can create a species in your own image, its really not insane

[honest thorn]

gets it from her mom

[teal shell]

gyatbug

[radiant vale]

its just semantics now on what constitutes a weaver when they originate from the same thing

[zenith pelican]

first sinner also uses those but she obviously looks much more like a weaver without them, so no it's not extra limbs

[radiant vale]

#sk-lore message

[obsidian quail]

it’s not semantics ur treating ur own headcanon as if it’s an actual fact to discuss, GMS is literally not a Weaver

[radiant vale]

im not treating it as any headcanon, im just saying its ambigious

[carmine mantle]

This was explained in the Hunter's Journal: "Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless". Lace is a brat that demands much from Mother.

[teal shell]

gms is probably her own thing like how the pale king is a wyrm, shes probably her own species akin to that

[obsidian quail]

ur statement that GMS can create them in her own image is ur own belief that no one else has

that doesn’t even make sense

[obsidian quail]

ur using ur headcanon to say what’s ambiguous as if it actually is

[teal shell]

they seen gms fat ball and decided they wanted to make that their head

[radiant vale]

[teal shell]

also gms looks weirdly human for a bug its odd

if shes even a bug

[spark valve]

I don't think there's really any definition of weaver used in game that would make gms reasonably apply

[zenith pelican]

those "arms" only appear after a very specific circumstance, i'm pretty sure it's her using some silk magic -like silk skills- that make her look like that, it's not her natural form tho

[obsidian quail]

Weavers are just spiders who can generate silk soul in their own shell and use it

they came from GMS who gave it Pharlids, their ancestors

or original form

whatever

we see the process of a pharlid becoming a Weaver

[teal shell]

game so good no one can agree with what is what

[obsidian quail]

a God does not have to be human to create humans

[teal shell]

is zote actually trobbio 🤔

[obsidian quail]

same thing

[empty sierra]

also is lacenet canon 👀

[obsidian quail]

silksong was cinema

[teal shell]

i do wonder who the protag of a hypothetical third hk game would be

[spark valve]

probably not

[obsidian quail]

lived up to the hype and more

[obsidian quail]

people were saying earlier that going to the City of Iron is long overdue

[empty sierra]

dlc will confirm trust 🙏

[spark valve]

Look of a child and a mind to match
I don't think the point is to be a romantic interest

[honest thorn]

I really do think GMS is supposed to be at least vaguely a Silk Moth, there are so many similarities between her and the Radiance which I assume the connection there would be the fact they are both moth higher beings

[teal shell]

if i had to pick im going hk but thats bc i think itd be funny to have a hollow knight game based around the hollow knight not just be called the hollow knight

[zenith pelican]

they obviously look the same, so yeah

[honest thorn]

her battle theme especially is Radiance related

[teal shell]

is hornet a minecraft youtuber🤑

[obsidian quail]

i think Lace is just a parallel to the Vessels for Hornet and she sympathizes, but she sees her as a child

[honest thorn]

I think hornet sees everyone as a child

[empty sierra]

hollow knight: hollow knight

[radiant vale]

tbf its really hard to put a race tag on any higher being except pale king

[teal shell]

cinema cinema

[teal shell]

i think thats just bc she doesnt see value in relationships tbf

[grand kayak]

Trobbio wants to be Grimm so bad

[radiant vale]

Its kinda how radiance made the moths but radiance isnt a moth herself

[teal shell]

sun moth innit

[honest thorn]

not really, Radiance is a moth, Pale King is a wyrm, Unn is a slug, White Lady is a Root.

[spark valve]

radiance isn't a moth and unn probably isn't a slug

[grand kayak]

Especially when shakra is right there smh.

[teal shell]

highkey a hollow knight game based around the hollow knight post embrace the void would be cinema ngl

[zenith pelican]

yeah cuz she's old as fuck

[obsidian quail]

why do u say that

[spark valve]

salubra is a slug and salubra and unn being the same species is uh questionable to say the least

[radiant vale]

bro

[honest thorn]

she's old so everyone else is a child to her

[teal shell]

oh yeah hornet is old as shit that is true

[radiant vale]

pale king is a wyrm cuz its literally stated

[obsidian quail]

that’s true but relative lifespans

she respects a lot of the bugs as adults

[radiant vale]

but everything else is up for debate fr

[honest thorn]

That's why she stopped looking for mates, none could match her maturity

[obsidian quail]

but she consistently calls Lace child

[teal shell]

claims to be “elderbug”, looks old, is still younger by some tiny little red cloak runt
hornetpilled

[spark valve]

You've slain a marvel indeed... Well, flawed marvel, at least. One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire
this line isn't said by Hornet it's said by the Caretaker

[obsidian quail]

no it was because they couldn’t match her lifespan

[teal shell]

lace does also just act like a child

[radiant vale]

void slug propaganda

[honest thorn]

That's why her relationships ended, not why she stopped looking for them in general

[pseudo stone]

Except for Pale Lady, she's referred to as "Root" in many of the same lines as Pale King is called "Wyrm"

[obsidian quail]

it’s not said anywhere that they couldn’t match her maturity

[teal shell]

i dont think its out the question that whatever gms is, is completely unknown to us as shes one of a kind

[honest thorn]

true, mostly just my interpretation based on the character

[radiant vale]

fair

[obsidian quail]

different beings have lifespans and different ages of maturity

[honest thorn]

Hornet is basically bug frieren

[obsidian quail]

she respects the adult bugs as adults

but Lace is literally a perpetual child

[radiant vale]

all under the pale catagory so far

[grand kayak]

Is the witch crest guy also a root?

His ending sure does make a lot of them

[honest thorn]

I think its a parasite

[radiant vale]

pale higher beings make up for 20% of the population and 100% of the crime, hmmm

[teal shell]

lace acts like a bratty child so i fear hornet may just be a minecraft youtuber if lacenet were to be canon

[honest thorn]

but I do think there is something more there, idk why they would make a whole seperate ending if it wasnt important

[pseudo stone]

Greyroot is weird, I think it might be something like a Strangler Vine, maybe? Whatever it is, it's strong enough to trap GMS in the ending for it

[radiant vale]

his name is grayroot so yea he probably is

he does solidify after he puts the leech in you

[obsidian quail]

i love these bugs

[honest thorn]

I think it more referes to the fact their parasite roots itself into hornet rather than being related to the white lady

[obsidian quail]

please hollow knight forever

give me more bug content

[radiant vale]

the parasite root and grayroot are 2 different things

yea im not connecting them to pale lady or anything

[obsidian quail]

did u guys smack around Kratt for peeping

[spark valve]

greyroot is called greyroot but she's pretty different from wl, there may be different types of roots or something but it's hard to imagine they're actually the same species or anything

[obsidian quail]

i was juggling that creep

[grand kayak]

Yeah i dont think the pale lady and greyroot are rhe same kind of thing but I wonder if they are related in some way

[radiant vale]

we cant assume WL is the ancestor of all roots

[grand kayak]

Since bugs are not the only kind of sapient life

[honest thorn]

actually, they might be related in the sense that GMS is related to the weavers. We do know basically nothing about the WL's backstory before Hallownest

[spark valve]

there could be a distant relation of some sort

[obsidian quail]

could just be a Root classification and different species of Roots

two branches

[teal shell]

root could just be a broad specification because nothing else really suits them as a descriptor

[obsidian quail]

probably more branches of Roots

[honest thorn]

honestly parasite would fit them pretty well

[teal shell]

they happen to resemble roots and plants therefor they are root

[radiant vale]

i wonder how many bugs have actually ascended to become a higher being

[grand kayak]

My crackpot theory is that the parasite absorbing all grand mother silks power could perhaps birth another being like the white lady

[honest thorn]

are they related to nyleth?

[radiant vale]

cuz theres a good number of higher beings but we know nothing about how they were born

[teal shell]

it could be divergent evolution in some way

[spark valve]

possible

[grand kayak]

Greyroot does talk a great deal about ascension iirc

[obsidian quail]

u can be a Wyrm without being a Higher Being right

[teal shell]

they started from the same point but greyroot is more parasitic in its nature where is wl is more passive?

[radiant vale]

wyrms might be innately higher beings

[honest thorn]

we dont know enough about wyrms to make that conclusion

[spark valve]

there's nothing indicating that there are non-HB wyrms

[teal shell]

i believe they are innately higher being going off pk but he coukd just be an exception not the rule

[obsidian quail]

oh so the Blackwyrm was probably a Higher Being too?

[spark valve]

their prescience and 'pulling bugs into their thrall' are general wyrm traits

[radiant vale]

all the story we have about wyrms is that they are essential to kingdoms since theyre the ones who make them

[honest thorn]

I believe wyrms are generally hgher beings, but the pale king was a step above

[teal shell]

blackwyrm is kinda hard to talk about

its talked about as more of a place?

[spark valve]

blackwyrm is a whole other can of wyrms but uh it's questionable whether it's even a wyrm

[honest thorn]

wait, could the blackbarrens be related to the blackworm?

[radiant vale]

pales are probably just a special type of higher beings, who hate the void

[teal shell]

its not black wyrm its blackwyrm which makes it read more as a location or name of somewhere rather than a being, if it was common for things to be -wyrm then pk wouldve been referred to as palewyrm but that doesnt happen

[honest thorn]

idk, the pale king seemed to love that stuff

[teal shell]

the wording is so specific its hard to talk about lmao

[radiant vale]

yea well look at what happened to him

[teal shell]

pk had an innate interest in the void, i dont think its in their nature to hate it

[honest thorn]

I don't think Pale beings and Void are directly opposite of each other, I just think Void effects everything like that

[radiant vale]

radiance/pale beings end up hating the void. Theres specifically a pale flower that keeps the void away

[spark valve]

his interest wasn't necessarily innate, just being resourceful

[teal shell]

that doesnt mean tbey hate eachother

[radiant vale]

i do agree with the void affecting everything else

[teal shell]

mb thats true

[radiant vale]

but white lady cutscene did hint at the purpose of something going against the void monarch

or the void itself, it was very vague

[distant briar]

what is the first light anyway?

[teal shell]

i dont think pale beings are naturally hateful towards the abyss, i think the abyss is the opposite of pale beings but that doesnt mean they have to be necessarily apposed to eachother

[grand kayak]

Hornet talks about the void being attracted towards soul iirc? Maybe the reason pale beings are so vulnerable to the void is because they have so much soul

[radiant vale]

maybe the origin of pale beings? idk its all speculation

[radiant vale]

i can see this

[teal shell]

void is used by the pale king so theres clearly not that much distain or danger in them being close to it, they are most likely just opposites that are attracted in some way

[grand kayak]

I dont think they are opposed in like a they are enemies way. I think its just that the void is very dangerous to pale beings.

[radiant vale]

yooo yin and yang analogy

[teal shell]

their opposites that are basically bound to eachother to work

[grand kayak]

Pale king treats the void not like an enemy but like an extremely dangerous substance he needs to be careful with

[teal shell]

delicate flower repels the void, void consumes pale beings

[obsidian quail]

he said it’s the power opposed

[honest thorn]

Void just equally kills everyone, doesnt matter how godlike you are

[teal shell]

the void is dangerous but it doesnt seem like its a danger specifically to pale beings

[obsidian quail]

they seem to have a duality there but not necessarily antagonistic if they don’t have to be

[spark valve]

void can be handled safely with proper precautions

[radiant vale]

maybe "The first light" is the true opposing factor and maybe thats an analogy for the concept of souls

[honest thorn]

Also, I don't think void specifically destroys soul, I believe they do coexist in some areas, especially with the soul totems and the vessels

and there are white spots in the void tendrils

[spark valve]

they do, the void spells in hk are a fusion of soul and void

[teal shell]

descending dark uses bith in hk

[obsidian quail]

yeah i think the First Light is the Pale equivalent of the Void and different beings have its essence

[radiant vale]

in the end its all mortal bugs who end up suffering cuz pale(?)/void/essence all end up mindcontrolling them and make them much more dangerous

[grand kayak]

I meant its more that the void is one of a few things that is dangerous to pale beings. Not that its only dangerous to them

[teal shell]

yeah true

[radiant vale]

we dont have many different higher beings to compare to

[teal shell]

well in that way it seems like it also works the other way round with the delicate flower repelling the abyss and causing the shadelord to poof in that one ending, they are just opposites to eachother

[radiant vale]

theres like 10 in total or something?

[honest thorn]

btw, I forget, was the Radiance a pale being or just a higher being?

[teal shell]

probably just a higher being

[radiant vale]

higher being with essence

[teal shell]

it being white is probably just to make it “radiant” lmao

[grand kayak]

I think the mind control the void does in act 3 is more because the silk is still in those creatures and less that the void is controlling them. The void is seeping into the silk causing the already mind controlled enemies to become voided

[radiant vale]

"essence" was her power or aspect or whatever

[austere gate]

its only bc gms is protesting her demise so void is inadvertenrly infecting all that is silken

[honest thorn]

But what about the pale ores? two of them you find in radiance related places

[austere gate]

void doesnt do shit if it aint trifled with, its always when someone tries to manipulate void is when things go haywire

[grand kayak]

Normally the void is less controlling things and more just devouring it

[honest thorn]

Void is like uranium

[obsidian quail]

higher being but not pale, her light wasn’t pale vs PK’s

[grand kayak]

Also impressive feat from GMS holding on so long in the void

[teal shell]

well you find one in a radiance statue as an offering, the rest are kinda random location wise

[obsidian quail]

but she also references Void as an ancient enemy

[radiant vale]

atp void cant do shit to any higher being bruh

all void did was trap radiance and then trap GMS

like bro just kill them already but it clearly cant

[grand kayak]

I mean it thoroughly fucks up both

[honest thorn]

ohhh, so that's why the moths ditched the radiance or the pk

[grand kayak]

And it does kill the radiance

[teal shell]

the void doeent have a conscious which is why the shadelord was able to kill radiance

[grand kayak]

And will eventually kill gms

[obsidian quail]

they ditched radiance because PK gave them higher consciousness

[radiant vale]

doesnt it just trap radiance

[teal shell]

its chaotic in its nature, not able to do things directly but when something is trapped in it, it gets slowly eaten away at

[honest thorn]

btw, do you guys think that the infection became a void infection in the embrace the void ending knowing what happened in Act 3 now?

[obsidian quail]

the Void is broken it just usually doesn’t a unified will like the Higher Beings do

[grand kayak]

It traps the infection because unless you do dream no more of embrace the void it can't kill radiance in the dream world

[obsidian quail]

did u see what happened when it did get one

[teal shell]

shadelord packs up radiance in a matter of seconds, clearly void isnt being harnessed right

[radiant vale]

either 2 endings but we cant confirm which is canon yet

[teal shell]

i meaaaaaan

its kinda so much more pointing towards etv

[honest thorn]

It might be embrace the void considering we dont see the hollow knight in the silksong ending which would imply its still alive

[obsidian quail]

i think they deliberately left it ambiguous so people don’t have a true canon for HK

[teal shell]

AND that the shadelord appears in ss, its only given true form in etv

[obsidian quail]

it could be one or the other

[honest thorn]

but there isnt anything saying it couldnt take form post dnm

[radiant vale]

without any solid confirmation its just gonna be "my headcanon is better than your headcanon"

[honest thorn]

shade lord seems to be some kind of amalgamation of all the shades

[teal shell]

its my headcanon has so much more evidence than your headcanon

[radiant vale]

they said theyre gonna work on silksong so they might add DLCs with more lore

[teal shell]

and it also feels better bc it leaves space open for the hk to get his own game

[radiant vale]

like they did with grimtroupe etc in HK

[honest thorn]

that would make me so happy

third playable character

[radiant vale]

2077

[teal shell]

i think etv makes more sense from a story standpoint

[honest thorn]

crazy that out of all the important hollow knight characters to appear in silksong, the hollow knight was one of the only characters to not appear

not even mentioned

[teal shell]

i mean the ending implies that the hk and hornet fight which is a pretty good jumping off point for future dlc

[grand kayak]

Shade lord is void given focus. Its the void but given direction

[honest thorn]

would explain how it appears in the true ending, it's direction was saving hornet and lace

[obsidian quail]

also doesn’t Hornet’s journal imply the Void isn’t evil but its nature has some inherent malignancy

[whole holly]

we need game with Hollow Knight as playable character, as well as grimchild who is similar to knight combat wise

[honest thorn]

but the shade lord's focus is directly influenced by the vessels

[teal shell]

it also would feel pretty dumb if the shadelord was formed offscreen if dnm is canon lmfao

[honest thorn]

honestly would make a cute duo

[whole holly]

yeah i agree

[honest thorn]

but I think they have very different fates so idk

[teal shell]

i think having a hk game where its the hk trying to find a purpose post etv would be really cool

[honest thorn]

grimmchild will definitely become the next troupemaster so idk how the hk would fit into that

[whole holly]

i didn't mean them together, lol

[teal shell]

i mean theyre left essentially with nothing

[honest thorn]

Hollow knight game where the hollow knight just goes around looking for new gods to call dad

[whole holly]

ofc not i meant games revolving one or other

[teal shell]

i mean just sinply having the hk trying to find hornet or the knight is a good enough hook

could just say he would go back to the abyss but like idk im not the writer they could nake some way around that

[honest thorn]

the hollow knight wouldn't even know the knight exists in the etv ending

[teal shell]

oh yeah exactly

[acoustic lark]

they say dreams no more is the canon one but the shade lord appears for a frame in the ending so i would think embrace the void is the canon

[whole holly]

hornet makes more sense, knight doesn't have shell since they became part of void

[teal shell]

to hks knowledge its siblings are basically dead

if it even remembers them atp

[whole holly]

i think Grimchild is still better for standalone game

[honest thorn]

i love the idea though that the shades are watching over their siblings

[teal shell]

having a dlc for silksong that has the etv fight with the hollow knight would be great from a fanservice standpoint and also from a story standpoint cus they could explore what happens after then before hornets capture

[acoustic lark]

zote for the next game

[whole holly]

but would it use Soul or Nightmares to heal, silk makes more sense

[teal shell]

i agree but at the same time id fw grimmtroupe just being a reoccurring group thru future games

[whole holly]

both can be possible, just like hornet appeared in HK and has her own game

[teal shell]

also again i just thinj itd be hilarious if the game about the hollow knight himself wouldnt be abke to just get called hollow knight lmao

i think if a game based solely on the hollow knight as the playable character were to be made itd probably be the “sequel” to hollow knight in a more direct capacity

[whole holly]

Hollow Knight: Awakening or Hollow Knight : Hollow Knight

[teal shell]

ss is a sequel obviously but it plays more of a spinoff in what happens throughout the game

[whole holly]

Hollow Knight : Pure Vessel could also be name

awakening fits most

[teal shell]

i think just a game about the hk coming to terms with the fact they can have a personality, they are allowed a will and trying to become a saviour to another kingdom falling to redeem themself for hallownest

would be kinda kino

also there could probably still be more vessels in the wild

[mortal cave]

I have a question.

Heard that with Silksong it's been explained that it expresses that there are tiers to higher beings

Where was that shown? || Was it when the shamans referred to hornet as an old one? Showing that she was a lower end higher being compared to Silk or Radiance, or was it stated that Silk and Radiance just have a difference in overall power as Godly beings? ||

[teal shell]

i think having a godmaster style dlc for silksong with all the refights and such including a fight with the hollow knight from just after embrace the void and including a small cutscene of hornet sparing them and essentially telling them to do something with their life would be kino kino

[obsidian quail]

if we’re going anywhere else i’d rather see City of Iron

they have crazy lore

[teal shell]

thats also true

zote game is here he explores the modern world of america 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

president zote

[devout island]

i just got the ||sisters of the void|| ending and it's got me feeling a little confused about something and was wondering what theories you all have. ||if the knight is a significant part of the void which seems to now have a proper mind of it's own, why did it take until the specific shade of the knight saw her for the void to retreat and why did it start to attack everything when silk got launched into it|| ?

[teal shell]

i dont think the void is united as one in a sense, i think theres still natural “beings” within it and the knight is essentially the alpha of the void

[obsidian quail]

i like to maybe think of it the Void as the Knight’s body

but just like our bodies do things we’re not aware of

it has to direct its attention

[teal shell]

well theres still the evil spiky tendrils with ryes which makes me think it still has some individuality to it just that the knight basically is the ruler of the void

[obsidian quail]

it still has its own nature, it just has a will to go with it

the nature hasn’t changed

it can just be directed if needed

[teal shell]

and gms falling into it was probably warranting checking out since its so powerful

[pale escarp]

The only lore that matters
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/c6fDHCMcZqY

[devout island]

it seems to be somehow related to silk tho. what's going on with her i'm also not quite sure. it seemed almost to be she was trapped by the citadel but she was also the one controlling the ones afflicted by silk

[teal shell]

im not entirely sure on gms herself but she seems to be some extremely powerful being and falling into the abyss was probably sounding alarms to the knight to check it out

so the abyss kinda holds her there for the time being

and just to the nature of the void it kinda yoinks some of gms power causing everything to start tweaking

[obsidian quail]

so the Knight can probably just make itself appear wherever there’s Void

right

[teal shell]

yeah most likely

[ocean reef]

so basically hornet is called hornet despite being a spider because she was trained by the bees... is this the correct understanding?

[teal shell]

pretty much

[obsidian quail]

it reflects her character and how she fights

i wonder what the hell the Weavers were doing in the Abyss

they don’t have anything tied to Void beyond that Weavenest

which didn’t even have anything indicating they were doing anything with Void

[teal shell]

could justve been curiosity

[obsidian quail]

maybe Absalom? i think that was its name was trying to combine Void and Silk

[teal shell]

probably seen that the void is a bitch to work with so didnt do too much with it

[obsidian quail]

finally someone with some sense

the Weavers are probably my favorite in HK lore

they’re so cool

gotta be the strongest race of creatures

ik powerscaling is dumb but i’m super curious to know who would win in a fight, Pure Vessel or First Sinner

they seem on the same tier to me

[teal shell]

yeah but zote wouldve sorted it out if he had the chance

can we just have zote in the dlc for absolutely no reason and no explanation

in 50 years team cherry will tell us what the fuck zote is

[austere gate]

who would win in a fight, pure vessel or trobbio

i think we know the answer

[whole holly]

Absalom?

[austere gate]

anyone with musical inclination, have yall picked out any leitmotifs in the soundtrack? There isnt much thats popping into my head compared to hk's soundtrack

[obsidian quail]

i think that’s the name?

the Weavenest in the Abyss

also the Green Prince and the other one were lovers or brothers?

[whole holly]

oh, Pharloom Abyss , okay

[teal shell]

they was so gay

[obsidian quail]

i thought so but generally u don’t call them two princes if they’re not related

so i was confused

[teal shell]

i doubt brothers would be depicted flying upwards embracing eachother like superman and lois lane tbh

unless pharloom freakier than i thought

[restive perch]

Is there a way to save Loam?

[obsidian quail]

i guess prince consort

so GMS created Phantom in the same way as Lace right?

[severe siren]

Whats a nail gonna do against a tornado

[austere gate]

they were very good roommates

[quiet shard]

||I need more lifeblood lore. It's questline feels really incomplete||

[frozen shell]

So sister of the void proves the void always was capable of allowing emotion yeah

The void could never create a “hollow knight” because it always had the capacity for love

[whole holly]

yeah, we need that abyss creature from hallownest to somehow appear in pharloom but that may require essense/dreams like DLC

[teal shell]

thats pretty clear in hollow knight lol

[quiet shard]

Im glad I'm not the only one who felt that that questline feels incomplete

[teal shell]

the vessels have emotions, wills and curiosity

[teal shell]

lifeblood 2 dlc

[quiet shard]

That questline really felt like it was supposed to be a 3-part not a 2 part

[rocky kindle]

It didn't retreat though, the knight destroyed the tendrils attacking her. The void seems to be an animalistic kind of thing whereas the knight has conscious control of itself and the void it controls

[distant briar]

wait how did the pale king fuck the void again to make the knight?

[quiet shard]

||What I don't understand is how did the knight get there. Did he just simply manifested there||

[quiet shard]

That's the only simple way I could think of

[fierce vessel]

I figured the knight can move through the void and control it to an extent, and sensed enough disturbance there during the fight to move there

[empty sierra]

if hes part of the void then he can move with it yea

[obsidian quail]

he is the Void so he can just make himself appear wherever he wants

it’s all the same Void

but there’s a lot of Void so he can’t be constantly aware of everything that’s happening, like with our own bodies who have a lot going on that we aren’t consciously paying attention to

[outer trail]

Hornet got her needle from the Hive? Am I reading that lore correctly?

[obsidian quail]

yes

[outer trail]

There wasn't even any pale ore there

[obsidian quail]

it’s a special material from the Hive that got amped by Pale Oil

[outer trail]

Oh I guess that makes sense

[obsidian quail]

yes she says the methods of making a nail like hers was lost

[whole pier]

Ok. I am convinced, if we ever see a third hollow knight game, it will be blue blood/plasmium related

[hazy carbon]

many people think that ||ghost/knight was in the everbloom and was manifested along the flower in hornet's memories||

[molten spire]

Zote

[whole pier]

Didn't he die? That makes no sense

[molten spire]

Bro never saved Zote

[whole pier]

Ohhh Zombie Zote..

[hazy carbon]

😭

[whole pier]

Blue blood Zombie Zote :D

[obsidian quail]

how does that make sense

[hazy carbon]

idk

[obsidian quail]

the Knight just directed its attention to the goings on of Pharloom

[hazy carbon]

oh look firefox giving me something other than the usual

[whole pier]

Knight was all like ||WTF are you doing in Abbys.. Without ME??||

[obsidian quail]

yeah it’s like long time no see sis wtf are u doing in here

[fierce vessel]

I think the third game you should play as the stag that hatched and went away in HK

[toxic fossil]

I found a place within ||Act 3, in the abyss above where grandmother silk is held, "Weavenest Absolom", hidden pretty well, what could that tie into the lore||

[austere gate]

i mean its not hidden considering u need to go there for story progression?

[fierce vessel]

Don't you have to go there for the ability

[round ibex]

just realized no poop area

[empty sierra]

is this canon?

[honest thorn]

Bilewater and putrified ducts definitely have shit in them

[hexed axle]

As well as sinner's road

[solar agate]

They wanted to show us FromSoft doesn't make the best poison swamps

[austere gate]

real talk the progression thru sinners road / bilewater / putrified aqueducts is something else

i keep thinking "looks like i found fhe worst place in the game"

and then i got surprised with an even worse place

and then i got suprised with an EVEN WORSER place

[dire sinew]

what is this

[empty sierra]

hornet dialogue

in the memory

[obsidian quail]

hahahaha

idk maybe a certain sect of Weavers were intrigued by Void and then noped tf out

because Weavers have no ties to Void

[molten spire]

Endgame Spoilers:

||I love how The Knight became a God of Void of sorts, yet still has some sort of attachment for the only living relative they have, something Hollow Knight also had, but instead lead to his downfall||

[strong ibex]

So from my understanding the ||delicate flower ending from HK is the canon path?

I'd like to think that once the Knight became the Shade Lord, the flower was just a means to prevent the void from seeping out into Hallownest, keeping it contained so to speak.||

[frozen shell]

Wtf IS Mr Mushroom bro

[austere gate]

a mushroom

[elder nymph]

So, let me verify. My brain isn't steeped in HK lore like some. Hornet is ||the offspring of a worm and weaver. So a worm and spider made a baby and named it Hornet? ||Crude explanation I know

[hexed axle]

Wyrm, I believe it's different from worm even though they share some common features. Hornet is called Hornet allegedly because ||she trained in the Hive||.

Well, she did, but I'm not sure whether that's the actual reason. Maybe it's just the rule of cool after all.

[flint lava]

THAT ENDING WAS CRAZY I WAS SO EXCITED WHEN ||THE KNIGHT|| POPPED UP I CLIPPED IT 20 TIMEs AHHH

[elder nymph]

Well, wyrm in the traditional sense usually refers to a wyvern or drake type of thing. Seeing what the Pale King popped out of, worm fits better

[flint lava]

AHH MY KING

[dim inlet]

Act 5 ending

[dim inlet]

TECHNICALLY genderless but he is a boy imo

[hexed axle]

Still, it's spelt wyrm in all text lines in the two games, to my best knowledge.

[flint lava]

i mean i call it a boy cuz hes my cutie pie

[dim inlet]

He is a boy because I say so, genderless or not

[hexed axle]

Although it really looks like a worm, have to agree

[dim inlet]

Does this imply hornet has girl parts 🤨

[elder nymph]

A lot of insects can be male or female as needed

[dim inlet]

Yeah but hornet is explicitly referred to as a daughter/the gendered one

[elder nymph]

True. They call Hornet she and her as well

[dim inlet]

The vessels are genderless because the void does not have a gender (shocker) and are closer to automatons than living beings

[elder nymph]

Doesn't change the fact a female could become a male in the insect world. Well, some species

[dim inlet]

FTM hornet....... dlc?

[hexed axle]

And all the weavers in silksong are referred to as sisters I believe? Looking at the mt fay lore tablet, at least, and few others

[elder nymph]

Gotta make the change necessary. Hornet has outlived all lovers before.

[dim inlet]

Not every weaver is female iirc the first sinner is male but dont quote me

[dim inlet]

"My name is now wasp" ahh

[elder nymph]

Hornet has no interest in relationships via romance

She states so

[hexed axle]

There's a theory that the first sinner is what the widow was initially. Hence the cracked head. And the shared voice lines and ost help to sell that

[dim inlet]

The only relationship hornet has interest in is aurafarming and taking 2x damage from bumping into shit

Hornet could've gotten so much shit done without the aura farming

Me personally I wouldve just sent GMS to hell instead of trying to strike a pose and getting pharloom obliterated

[hexed axle]

Ah, here, found it

[elder nymph]

I have no idea how I'm going to do steel needle or whatever it's called

[dim inlet]

Steel soul?

You either get good or save scum

There's not many mandatory bosses in SS tbf

[elder nymph]

Beating the ones that matter, however. Gonna need practice. Also, I hope there is DLC and lore about sprinter bug

[obsidian quail]

do u know Shirrako

[flint lava]

AHH IM STILL SO CRAZED OVER THE ENDING

[obsidian quail]

it’s a popular gamer channel

[zinc dove]

What's the lore of the ||original sinner||?

[tawdry flare]

I headcanon you as female

[flint lava]

no

[dim inlet]

But I have a weener

[obsidian quail]

they beat bosses as fast as they can so to get content views, and post spoiler screenshots

[tawdry flare]

I am Not having this discussion

[dim inlet]

Thats the dude that somehow uploads the endings of every single fucking game in the past 10 years on release date. Either videogame Jesus or datamine god

[dim inlet]

Its his job to be fair

[obsidian quail]

i saw that screenshot not believing it was real because i didn’t see it was shirrako

[flint lava]

and what does that have to do lmao

[whole holly]

is there lore reason why Chapel Caretakers seem similar, what types of bugs are they?

[obsidian quail]

and when i did the ending i was like OHHH SHIT

i thought it was fan art

[dim inlet]

You'll learn later

[tawdry flare]

Yeah Pinstress is the true final boss

[flint lava]

bro i wanna change my pfp to the ending

but itd be spoiling

[tawdry flare]

Do Not

[whole holly]

i want to know now, that is reason why i asked

[obsidian quail]

it’s okay to post ur gameplay but idk why he directly screenshots spoilers

within 2 days of it coming out, he does that for every game

[dim inlet]

Well, if you played hollow knight, you'll know they're snail shamans

And are born from the void.

They help you get the everbloom from their sacrifice so you can fight Lost Lace and free her from the abyss

[whole holly]

i had suspicion

[dim inlet]

I mean they tell you in dialogue

"You should've known it was our nature" ahh

Nature literally only refers to godhood or the void in this series istg

Ari making the entire lore just boil down to Black Vs White

[novel eagle]

where is ADENO or FINALE or SHAW in skong

[dim inlet]

We know that pale things are the "gods" and are usually immortal

They can be killed but either dont die naturally or live for an insanely long time

[whole holly]

what about Pale Deer

[dim inlet]

Or can also metamorphosize, like The Pale King did

[dim inlet]

Not sure. They dont name things pale for no reason.

[hexed axle]

Pale Stag might not have been real at all

[tawdry flare]

It was their family’s obsession, it doesn’t mean they’re void

[dim inlet]

But that was more of a dream boss. Perhaps it symbolizes something rather than being real?

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker?

[tawdry flare]

Also it’s probably the power of the spell that killed them not the Everbloom

[dim inlet]

That does not count bro you know what im talking about here

Pale King, GSW is described as pale, the vessels and hornet are both pale, etc

[tawdry flare]

She was just a superfan of the Pale King iirc

[dim inlet]

The white/pale lady

[whole holly]

Radiance is pale too other than eyes

[whole holly]

visually at least

[tawdry flare]

Radiance is a Higher Being akin to Unn, she isn’t a Pale Being

[dim inlet]

Correct me if im wrong, the white lady is also a higher being, yes?

Honestly Red Dream might be my favorite part of silksong

[tawdry flare]

She’s a Pale Being I think?

[tawdry flare]

Yeah Red Memory is awesome. I really like the Weaver’s version of the Dream Realm

[austere coral]

yea, she is

[autumn pendant]

so uhhh is that|| the hollow knight or the knight?||

[dim inlet]

The knight

[flint lava]

Knight

[dim inlet]

People saying its hollow knight are wrong and forget that the knight changes form in shadow to have longer and smoother horns

[tawdry flare]

That’s TK. Their horns change in their shade form

[autumn pendant]

the horns do look a lot like the hollow knight from white palace tho

[dim inlet]

Hollow Knight has a VERY long face in shade form, The Knight does not

[autumn pendant]

oh guess didn't remember that lol

[dim inlet]

The knight (left) Hollow Knight (top)

[craggy smelt]

I don't know that we should be sure about this any more
'pale being' seems to refer to something more expansive than it did in the original game
Silk is described as pale (and she shares some similarities with Radiance visually), Hornet calls herself pale
and even PK described Rad as 'blazing kin' in the first game
'pale being' now seems to refer to exceptionally powerful entities, I think Rad would qualify

[austere coral]

poor radiance getting slapped to death:/

granted she did do some stuff

[dim inlet]

Also, because of the SS ending, does this mean the knight can change to be the shade lord at will?

We see the shade lord flash when we see the knight

[tawdry flare]

No, it means that Silksong takes place after both DNM and ETV

[dim inlet]

No empathy for that hoe she killed myla

[dim inlet]

Bro you are a goober I know that

[craggy smelt]

maybe
Shadelord appearing could just be an allusion to what they could become, not what they already are
(though if Godseeker mode is canon, then I guess they can even appear as the original Knight, at least in the dream realm, but I don't like Godseeker mode)

[austere coral]

I’m assuming it’s to keep the canonicity of both true ending and godhome ending

[dim inlet]

There's like 2 frames of the shade lord when the knight approaches hornet

• the claw slashes are the same as the shade lord does

I believe the knight becomes the shade lord

[tawdry flare]

Hmmm

[dim inlet]

I think the delicate flower ending must not be canon if the knight escaped the dream tbh

[tawdry flare]

Not canon to Silksong yeah, but still canon

[dim inlet]

?

[tawdry flare]

Every Ending is Canon but some don’t lead into Silksong

[austere coral]

maybe has the potential or power within them, but I think the true shade lord was a consequence of the godseekers attunement, making the knight achieve its ”peak”

[dim inlet]

Boo timeline theory

[sinful nimbus]

DNM/ETV don't seem to be canon

[tawdry flare]

YOU DONT NEED TIMELINES!!!

[dim inlet]

True.