Double the appearance time for Black-Stained Rose Succubus at Rabbie Phantasm: Temptation’s Path

[hollow gull]

To compensate for NA not having KR ping.
It'll also help high ping enjoyers.
High ping means you have to have better gears than lower ping players to make the cut for any time limited gameplay. We're at a disadvantage, and simply doubling the this timer (and others alike) would level the playing field. It's also a very free way to creating the much needed progression support in mabi.
Stop making things time limited. At least math out the ping disadvantage and add to these timers for NA.

[sleek pasture]

I definitely agree that there needs to be greater consideration for our varied ping. Tight time gates/hit checks are really frustrating as an EU player, but in this instance I don't personally feel the Succubus are too strictly time gated.
It can still be cleared with a party or solo if gear is sufficient with time to spare.
(I have 180-avg ping, and the Secret Roses go down in about 5-10 seconds.)

If a user is failing to solo content designed for 4 players it hypothetically means their damage potential is insufficient for the increased difficulty.

It's definitely super frustrating to fail a timed hit-check because of bad ping, but I dont agree with making this specific instance of content easier, but rather a different approach could be taken to "dps check" a player?
Nothing comes to mind though, other than ye olde tech zombies... which, like... ew.

[hollow gull]

The point is that gear that would grant you a clear on NA/KR ping won't get you the clear on higher ping.

Ping gate is everywhere. examples:

• crom: irusan hit check
• crom: irusan laser charge time
• crom: irusan additional mobs spawn time interval
• crom: red circles from irusan and glas
• crom: all circular charge-up by glas
• crom: disciples timer at glas
• crom: shrieker red bomb explosion indicator timer
• glen: anything that counts down on a timer that would lead to a wipe, e.g. deer timer
• bri: the boss timer
• bri g1: mineral timer
• bri g1: all circle timers
• bri g2: delay between every rush, at every interval
• bri g2: all circle timers
• bri g2: delay between rush and breath
• bri g3: all circle timers
• bri g3: all laser timers
• bri g3: all aoe timers incl. orb chasing
• doki doki island: cook serve doki timer
• all dan tests

i'm sure there's a lot more that i can't think of rn.
see pic of my ping. yes i still play this laggy game because i'm a weird high ping enjoyer; lag is a very common reason why people drop an mmo.

these annoying little things effectively act as filters that filter out actually sane people from playing this game. that's why i reckon we're full of.. quirky people.

if you can already clear the content, this change wouldn't make a difference for you. it simply makes the game more accessible for more players.
we need more players. this is a very simple solution. it's also a partial solution to needing EU/overseas servers. it's also a partial solution to simulating a higher population contributing to ingame economy.
'we dont need the game to be easier' isnt a good enough reason to keep people ping gated. that's gating people from logging on to the game.

do you want to keep discouraging people from playing? do you want to keep the player count low? keep advocating for ping gated content.

[sleek pasture]

Yeah that point i do fundamentally agree with. The way Mabinogi is with regards to connection is why these dps checks are frustrating and I personally hope eternity fixes these issues by modernizing the netcode thingie...
-# I dont know how that works, but modern mmos don't have this problem apparently.

[plush ocean]

Yeah, I think Ping is a real obstacle to enjoyment of the game, stateside, but I'm not really onboard that it's the problem you say it is in Phantasm.

Phantasm's 'gates', unlike other issues with ping such as in Crom, are relatively easy to just brute force with higher damage numbers. If you can't solo it, you run with 4 players as intended. If 4 players can't clear the timers, then you're almost certainly not clearing because of gear and stats, not ping. I live on the east coast and have awful ping, and I clear these timers regularly. So do a number of my friends. The ones who don't just aren't geared for it.

I agree that there's a number of mechanics that just feel like they were made to be arbitrarily annoying obstacles and are exacerbated by ping variation: Hitchecks in general, since they usually scale to ridiculous numbers and essentially necessitate dual guns (Irusan's 250+ hitcheck says hello), Glas's blackhole snapshot (bad ping? better hope you have meridian sweep on reflex), Dan Tests just lacking any sort of QA in general (Astral Reave? Healing? Haha, you're joking), etc.

But Phantasm isn't really in line with these other issues, I feel. If anything, it'd be great if Phantasm was the standard for these other mechanics, because I never really feel cheated by Phantasm like I do sometimes in other stuff. Like when I was randomly yanked across the Glas arena into a blackhole by what seemed like ping (mind some colorful language, got just a bit heated):

[sleek pasture]

-# As frustrating as your experience was to validate the response, could you remove the video due to the language please-
But also that's wild. Zipzoom.

[plush ocean]

Sure thing

[raven hedge]

Just adding on as a fellow east coast / near enough to it to count east coaster whos gear is master Perseus and old imp knight armor with good enough enchants and reforges but nothing spectacular

I don't feel that not being able to solo the black rose succubi is a ping issue, but more so going into their fights underprepared or undergeared. The succubi and the queen are more than easy enough to beat with proper planning on east coast ping and mid internet. Fateweaver, p pots, Lorna box catering, doll bags, and BFO are all very simple things you can do for a boost in damage. Bone dragon chips are an alternative to ppots if those are inaccessible, and you can always give the fortune telling skill a try for a random buff.

Wraiths don't spawn anymore so you're free to pet debuff in the dungeon itself as well.

I have more than enough time to starlight veil, death mark, rage impact, then Shattering Windmill + Dyne to defeat the roses in a few hits (though I may skip rage or veil sometimes depending on cooldowns) You can too, just plan before rushing in.

Irusan hit checks and the queens original pre nerf hit check are much more understandable for ping based nerfs imo

[scarlet iris]

Imho; Any mechanic that relies heavily on ping, tight time gates, or overly tedious min/max managing aren't ideal mechanics.

If the solution is "just deal enough dmg so it's not a problem", then the mechanic in of itself is fundamentally flawed, as that's not a solution to a mechanic, but a workaround to bypass said mechanic.

Being a returning old vet who came back mid last year (who hasn't played since 6+ years prior), I got to experience the various bosses/mechanics in this game.

I do think a lot of mechanics do a poor job at explaining themselves either leading up to, or during the boss itself, and you either have to know ahead of time before setting foot in the dungeon/instance, or risk having to waste nao/Guardian stones to figure it out. A lot of them (like the aforementioned zombie hall and irusan 1hko debuff) are poorly designed mechanics. I'm sure I don't need to explain Zombie hall, but Irusan's falls under ping reliant and heavy micromanaging, which is tedious due to everything else a player is expected to do during the fight. Makes the fight chaotic & the punishment for getting hit once too severe.
Heck, I'm softlocked and can't clear Irusan cause of his 1hko attack. I could go on about Irusan's boss fight as a whole, but I digress.

I personally think having more telegraphed and better visuals for what's going on for more punishing mechanics is necessary for bosses going forward.
I do hope the Eternity project alleviates alot of the ping gripes (like the ones op mentioned), but a lot of mechanics have no warning they're about to occur, only explaining briefly in the moment what's going on, or leaving you to be killed, finding out what went wrong afterwards. So dealing with this, ontop of dealing with said ping leads to a pretty unrewarding experience.
.02

[plush ocean]

If the solution is "just deal enough dmg so it's not a problem", then the mechanic in of itself is fundamentally flawed, as that's not a solution to a mechanic, but a workaround to bypass said mechanic.

Just as it pertains to the topic at hand, this is true enough, but applying it without proper scrutiny just as much of a problem: Content can and should expect a certain amount of damage output, a certain amount of gear and stat development on a challenging player; that's not a symptom of something being flawed. Phantasm's timers aren't particularly tight or excessive, in my personal opinion, and if I may be so frank, the only time I've seen people complain about it in particular is when they were woefully undergeared and undeveloped (skills, stats, arcana, you name it) OR they are trying to solo 4-player content with decidedly disadvantaged arcana (harmonic saint, sacred guardian).

Yes, indeed, in this case, the answer is 'just do more damage', and it is appropriate at least in the case of Phantasm because there isn't really a huge ping-gap that people fall into. You have a rather sizeable amount of time to defeat each succubus, and it is a 4-player dungeon. There's no snapshots, the duration is fairly large, and you can largely take your time in the dungeon preparing for each fight if you really need to. There's any number of things you can do to give yourself the edge, too.

There's plenty of things in the game that fit the criteria you mention, it's just not Phantasm.

[hollow gull]

so here's some super sketchy nonperfect ping math.
(I'm notoriously bad at maths, so my calculations have a high chance of being wrong. please correct me if you see anything off.)

lets assume we're working with just ping, and rtt doesn't exist for simplicity's sake, and everyone's got the best vpn.

assuming KR assumed 100ms to be their WCS because small land and lightspeed internet, and set their mabi standard to be around there.
let's say they were generous and gave a +20% padding.
so, that would give the 10-action mechanic timer + cd, around 4 seconds + 20% = 4.8 seconds. say they round it up to 5 seconds.

referring to the chart:

• players with 120 ping are likely to clear.

• players with 180 might clear, if lucky.

• players above 200 ping are gated out. there's no way around it except to geographically move closer to the server. this is why we can't clear dan tests.
  I'm on an average of 220-320 ping. 400+ ping happens during adverse weathers or if something goes wrong somewhere. 175 on a super duper good day, but that happens maybe for 1-2 days every 3-4 weeks.

• what happens when we add 1 second? players with 200 ping are likely to clear, and 220 might, if lucky.

• what happens when it's doubled to 10 seconds? players on 220-380 are likely to clear, bar ping spikes.

but, we left out an important number:
humans have an average reaction speed of 200-280ms. so gotta add that into every interaction that requires a reaction.

So. when people say they're on 180 ping and say it's fine at 200 or 220, yeah nah. Especially when they're fussed about adding a mere few seconds to one short mechanic in the whole game. You've seen how much worse off you are compared to kr, wat wrong witchu

[scarlet iris]

Yeah, that's fair.
I guess I should of clarified that I was talking more in a broader sense.

Content should indeed expect a certain damage and gear output, but as a mechanic (like a dps check like with zombie hall) it shouldn't exist.
Having the proper gear and dmg nesscary to handle content should be taken into consideration, but I don't see that as a mechanic per-say, but a feature/requirement(?) so to speak if I'm making any sense

[hollow gull]

Slowmode has passed, so adding on exhibit A: How long does it take to perform 4 astral reaves for a high ping player in NA vs a player in KR?
Me: 8 seconds (0:10 - 0:18)
KR: 2 seconds (0:19 - 0:21)

So looking back at the ping chart, you can see that it actually does take me about 3-4x longer to perform the same sequence of actions than a low ping player.
It roughly checks out, as i'm usually on 220-320+ ms, and kr is probably on ~10ms give or take.

In other words, to make it fair for low ping players, the current rose timer must be cut in half or quartered.

So then how will you clear? Yes, get better gear and get good. That's true. So what would it take to clear it in 1/2 or 1/4 of its current time? Do you have enough time to debuff? How many skills can you squeeze in? How playable does that make this mechanic?

Sounds terrible, right? Some people might even say that's a fun challenge. How many would keep playing?

Will you still call this a gear/skill issue? Or is it a ping issue? A mechanic issue? Or a game design issue?

See my other examples of high ping:
#1317970922715742268 message
#1316567754232303678 message
#1393091501378240562 message (no viv, demo A50, no other cs modifers)
#1284105473699876875 message (before new channels)
#🧡・mabinogi message

So when you say no to these ping compensation suggestions, are you aware of the maths? Can you say this is fair and balanced?

PS. Have you seen lfg during non NA hours(Midnight-6am ST)? It's pretty dead. We have to solo most of the time, if no static.

[hollow gull]

since nobody's corrected me yet, i'm assuming my chart was somewhat on the right track. so that chart, graphed, is this.

If correct, this is literally the ping difficulty curve.

apparently m=20, and arctan(20) = 81 degrees. that ain't a curve, it's a wall.

let's say 0 degrees = 100% returns, 90 degrees = 0% returns. (i.e. progression)

trying to fix ping problems with better gear and skill mathematically has 81 degrees' worth of diminishing returns = 1-(81/90) = it's only 10% worth doing. telling people to gear up and git good is akin to setting them up for a 10% success rate.
which.. i bet is similar to the player retention rate/progression rate from outside of US/high ping players.

-# somebody please correct my maths because it's not safe for me to do this much math, im getting nervous. i'm 99% certain i've gone wrong somewhere. this can't be right, aint no way

no there's something wrong somewhere. I think its my logic about the 10%.

Also, i can't solo the rose succubus 100% of the time because of my ping. doing the roses is a waste of time so i just don't, and i'm one person out of many people.
You want me to find a tasm party to carry me during NA dead hours? hahaha...
And you can solo, so why can't i? I solo crom basic fine, i soloed old tech fine, i soloed crom 10 fine with a pers scythe. I run endgame content. but i'm simply ping gated out of this midgame mechanic with gears that can clear much harder content. that makes 0 sense, it's imbalanced by definition.

I can sometimes JUST barely make the normal hitcheck for the normal queen because of my ping. (and no, wotg won't work 100% of the time. dual gun normal attacks are very slow on high ping. it takes about 4 seconds to fire 10 shots with wotg. it's faster to thunder and chaser.)

It's not a gear issue. It's a ping gate issue.

They're related, but one's a human issue, another is a bottleneck preventing players from staying.

Please actually say why you think roses should remain ping gated.

[sleek pasture]

There's not much to correct regardless of your math. We've all agreed that ping-gating is bad, but several of us just disagree with the application to the Secret Roses because it isn't nearly as punishing as the rest of the agreeably bad ping-gated mechanics.
A buffer to those insanely tight timers would be super welcome for NA.

[hollow gull]

Yeah, because you think it's "not bad", it can't possibly be a worse problem/near impossible for somebody else right.

180 ping is not high. that's actually pretty mid, and mabi is pretty smooth at that ping. try 230, 250, 300.

ask - what's adding a few seconds to it really going to do?

allow more noobs in? good. noobs = "new" players. noobs improve with experience and practice. more accessible = more play = more good players. why even be against this. you want ppl to stay noobs forever? harsh. and detrimental to the server.

make the game easier? good. exactly why be against this. it's a very small change, not a full New Rise treatment. does it make the whole game easier for you when you're already clearing this timer? what's the specific reason behind supporting a poorly executed time gate?

This change of doubling the timer is so minute, yet it's a huge pain relief for many. These "small" changes go noticed, people feel supported, and eventually build up to a good game.

So, why exactly be against this? Not just a "i dont agree/don't like it/it makes the game easy". Elaborate why, because there's a need for good reasoning other than personal feelings behind keeping things ping gated, just because something isn't 'as bad'. doesn't mean it's good, it's still bad. it's not "punishing", it's literally "impossible" - see chart.

Who's a current midgamer on 220-320 ping, who isn't up to running/never been to glen hm+ or bri? am i reading feedback from the players who this dungeon is actually targeted at here? or am i reading low-mid ping endgamers saying midgame content is doable.

[sleek pasture]

So, why exactly be against this? Not just a "i dont agree/don't like it/it makes the game easy". Elaborate why, because there's a need for good reasoning other than personal feelings behind keeping things ping gated, just because something isn't 'as bad'. doesn't mean it's good, it's still bad. it's not "punishing", it's literally "impossible" - see chart.
#1463800274908086356 message
This user has summarized it fairly well, but to tl;dr it:
Content can and should expect a certain amount of damage output.

I agree that Mabinogi should be fairer to people with 200+ ping.

I do not agree that this specific instance you have explicitly specified - Rabbie Phantasm's secret roses - is unfair to people with 200+ ping, for the following reasons;

• It is a damage check that does not prevent you from clearing the dungeon.
  • It prevents you from accessing a harder version of the dungeon that requires more damage.
• It is a damage check designed for 4 players.
• The time given is very generous, and does not require maximum gear investment.
  • This is not ignoring the core issue you have stated; that higher ping players need better gear to meet the same thresholds. It's a statement that it this specific instance you have explicitly specified is much less applicable to the core issue you have stated.

I do think that it could be improved, however:

• Players who fail the secret rose damage check should be allowed to re-attempt the rose as many times as they have the patience for, rather than being completely barred entry, as it does otherwise cost a pass and a very expensive potion.

To answer this question:

ask - what's adding a few seconds to it really going to do?
It will help you overcome a damage barrier you aren't personally strong enough to solo consistently yet - but it will not benefit the higher-latency player base in a meaningful way in my opinion.
That isn't to say other parts of the game wouldn't benefit from "adding a few seconds", which I personally would love to see in some areas like Irusan's or Succubus Queen's hitcheck, but that's not what the thread is about.

-# Also, adding on a tiny endnote: the concerns with 'making content easier' has to do with invalidating rewards/gear/the value of early investment. The trailblazers, so to speak, will be punished. However, that is not really applicable to Rabbie Temptation's Path because it's not end-game content. I wouldn't be against it being made easier but I just dont agree that it would be meaningful to do so. It's okay that our opinions are different. I'm not saying you're wrong.

[hybrid kite]

Just to preface this, I have low ping so I'm not in the group of those impacted as a whole

That said, I don't think anyone disagrees that ping-gating is a very real problem in Mabinogi for NA. On that topic as a whole, I also agree that it needs to be at the very least considered by the dev team. This is especially the case when the alternative is opening more hosted server locations further East (or Globally again) to reduce ping across the board

However, I don't necessarily agree with adjusting something that was intended to be completed with a party (with the option of being solo content if you can dish out the damage). BUT, I will be fair in acknowledging that higher ping players are at an obvious disadvantage if for example Player A has 50 ping and can clear it fine but Player B who has the exact same setup but 200 ping cannot clear it (especially if it's achievable with relatively low gear)

The fundamental problem here to me in the case of the solution being to 'nerf' or to otherwise reduce the time it takes or limits involved is that it affects the entire player base and subsequently makes the content easier no matter how you look at it. I would much rather they take a networking/infrastructure approach to resolve the issue over catered changes/content that could ultimately be rendered moot if/when they implement network changes in the future to improve latency

[hollow gull]

saying phantasm provides no ping gap incl. the rose succu timer, and the normal queen hc, is an obviously blaring proof in itself that you haven't played mabi on high ping.

It's not just delays between attacks, it's being constantly displaced, attacks not working when they should be, buttons not registering when they should be, moonwalking at random intervals, etc.

these obstacles are always, constantly there. we call it 'fighting ping'. it's a core part of high ping mabi because it never goes away, which evidently barely exists for people on/near the NA continent.
the further you're from NA, the worse the intensity and frequency of these high ping obstacles. I'm in Australia, across the entire pacific ocean, and anyone who's played mabi here can attest to how terribly bad it is. it's not only input delay. playing from here requires a stupid amount of patience and tolerance, and strategising workarounds.

I already mentioned "getting better gear" in my opening post, which for some reason got glossed over and reiterated throughout the thread.

So what's the big deal about adding a few seconds to a bottleneck mechanic, that arguably shouldn't have a timer in the first place?
glen VHM mechanic doesn't have a timer, but if it did, it would be stupid design. if i got up to argue about it being more ping friendly, i bet a billion gold that people would've defended it like they've done here.

Owlski's post is a better explanation, and a better solution. #1463800274908086356 message

Feth hallway was also something that was intended to be cleared with a party, and so was old tasm. glen vhm and bri were intended to be completed with about 8 people. the reality is people can't party because we lack the population. so naturally, the game becomes "too hard". the least you could do is fix bad bottlenecks so low party count/solo players can at least access the content.

Emphasis on access

[sleek pasture]

Good thing nobody has said that, then:

This is not ignoring the core issue you have stated; that higher ping players need better gear to meet the same thresholds. It's a statement that it this specific instance you have explicitly specified is much less applicable to the core issue you have stated.

That isn't to say other parts of the game wouldn't benefit from "adding a few seconds", which I personally would love to see in some areas like Irusan's or Succubus Queen's hitcheck, but that's not what the thread is about.

[hollow gull]

thank you, yes its good that ping gate is recognised.

"..the only time I've seen people complain about it in particular is when they were woefully undergeared and undeveloped (skills, stats, arcana, you name it) OR they are trying to solo 4-player content with decidedly disadvantaged arcana..."

"Yes, indeed, in this case, the answer is 'just do more damage', and it is appropriate at least__ in the case of Phantasm because there isn't really a huge ping-gap that people fall into__. You have a rather sizeable amount of time to defeat each succubus, and it is a 4-player dungeon."

both show they don't have any experience with high ping mabi. they're right if it's only describing NA.

suggesting an infinite try on a mechanic that's impossible is insanity by definition. we have a saying: 'headbutting the ground'.
Owlski's explanation/suggestion makes more sense.

it's so easy to just suggest a whole network/infrastructure change. idk if doing that for mabi running on pleione is an easy job. i'm pretty sure changing a variable for a timer is much faster/cheaper/more doable/more realistic.
no this isn't a 'wait for eternity' job because it's literally changing a variable.
network/infra updates for mabi is probably akin to rewiring the plumbing and electricals in your walls. whereas changing a timer or rebalancing mob stats like hp/dmg/def is like changing your kettle, mug, or lamp. so taking it into consideration, suggesting a network/infra change is difficult, simply because the process of carrying those out generally tend to be a lot more complex, take longer, and a whole lot riskier.

a realistic solution could be to rebalance it so that roses aren't currently the feth hallway version 2.
unlocking access to the dungeon shouldn't be straight up GATE, it should check all 3 of gear, skill, and strategy, not a simple dps gate (less ping = more dps) e.g. accessing glen vhm. then rebalance the rooms. but i dont believe nexon NA has that kind of dev power.

[hybrid kite]

I can agree with a change that adjusts the mechanic itself to consider high ping, what that could be I'm not sure but just to emphasize what I was saying: I am not disagreeing that it is not difficult or does not warrant a fix or change

I am disagreeing with the solution being to reduce the timer, because while this does benefit both parties (low/high ping) it also makes the content easier and potentially even laughable for those with low ping (technically giving low ping an even bigger advantage)

Now, if we're talking about changing up the mechanic altogether and giving the dev team the opportunity to make it something that is fair to both parties then I'm all for it (agreed that infrastructure/network changes are a tall ask but it would be the defacto solution in an ideal world when it comes to Rabs Tempt)

[subtle perch]

The easiest and biggest fix currently with mabinogi ping would be "difficulties" in my opinion. There's a saying "let people play how they want to because it's a game not a job or real life". Having multiple difficulties that drop all of the "exact same character progression items" no if and or butts then players with worse pings can still progress if they can't find anyone to team up, the dungeon is re:fined, work/sleep at odd hours. The only difference is the drop rate of said items for the difficulties so yes it will take bad ping longer to progress but they still have the option rather than be gated or forcing the game to become "easier" for everyone else. Difficulties also means devs don't have to constantly rebalance content, skills, and everything else just add more difficulties to existing content also having a good progress loop that keeps all content relevant also helps people out and it's easy to do. So you could have temptations lvl 1, temptations lvl 2, temptations lvl (###)

[scarlet iris]

It's kinda strange we don't see that more.
We got that in the form of the regular dungeons (normal, basic, advance, etc.) and even in shadow missions.

Weird that they removed/unified the difficulty for Tech missions (making them stupidly easy in comparison to what it once was), and even removed the % clear amount in Crom (just two fixed options now).
Having varied difficulties for these specific stuff could also help better refine the reward pool, allowing players to farm specific difficulties depending on what items/resources they want a better chance to obtain.

[subtle perch]

Yes not everyone wants to hardcore play the game or has the ping to play the harder difficulties. When progression is locked behind the hardest difficulty and you just want to casually progress or you don't want to struggle with ping then at least having a chance would be nice rather than be gated by ping, odd playing hours because we do host to all around the world. For example glenn easy does not drop any materials but it should. Like glenn lvl 1 (easy) has X% (or in Nexon case .0000x for most content) chance to drop materials then Glenn lvl 2 (normal) should be better than lvl 1 and Glenn lvl 3 (very normal) should be better than lvl 2.

[tribal seal]

Anecdotal; our EU and OCEANA guild members are not struggling with this content.

If the main gripe is that you dont want to get better gear... and you can get clears of Phantas., non-temptation... then you are saying you can reasonably clear shineseeker and AHMs. And I might point toward clearing content that gets you better gear.

Speed is just one aspect. If we had equal speed, will all EU and OCEANA players clear it?

What about the EST players in US and Canada that aren't clearing it. They may want double the time, too. I am not seeing a benefit of increasing, especially by double the time, the spawn time.of the Red/White/Yellow/Pink succubus when the time they are there is already actually pretty generous.

I understand frustration, but if we are walking in there with puppets, no erg, and it'd a basic control bar, and we are saying we need double the time to clear, what I am hearing g is that we want temptation to be early game content.

People with celtic gear are clearing it, so I have a lot of questions here...

I also hold hope that UE5 once again, allows client sided actions, which should help even the playing field for high ping players. So, on a brighter note we want think about that too

[hollow gull]

No, you missed all the points.

[tribal seal]

From what I read, the sentiments are that certain players and/or regions are ping gated in content and completely incapable of running mechanics due to that, or are uncomfortably able to do it, or need better gear to clear which others may not need that level of gear to clear the same content. Again, that's frustrating.

When I observe people from the same regions clearing, I speculate that there is either an ISP issue, network issue, hardware issue, gear issue, or any combination.

So, in order for me to be persuaded that this needs to be changed I would love some crucial aspects filled in for me to better understand that this is actually a huge problem.

• What is your gear?

• What country are you playing from?

• What is the ping you are experiencing?

• What internet type are you using?(DSL, Cable, Fiberoptics)

• Whats your UL and DL speeds?

There are so many parameters to this discussion completely lacking in the original post.

I see EU and OCEANA Players clear just fine with 200+ ping.

There is something definitely going on, and I can not have any idea of what to think of a post like this when its lacking context beyond "just trust me bro".

Even if we ignore everything I just stated. Would it make sense for Devcat to make this change if they just give client sided actions like they did pre-2012 after UE5? When they have better security measures?

So what are you supposed to do in the mean time? I am really invested in hearing what are causes and conditions for high ping(besides your geographical location) and circumstances surrounding your gear that completely disallowed you to clear that mechanic.

[hollow gull]

You can find the answers to half your questions in the thread. The other half aren't useful info, but ill happily provide once you've posted all the answers+feedback from your sources who also qualify as target players (midgame, high ping outside of NA continent) or they post it themselves.

A major hindrance that prevents player growth in this game is precisely this attitude - endgame players with fair access demanding to be convinced about a fix to poorly implemented midgame content access GATES that heavily affects midgame or lower players at a ping disadvantage.

The best part - adding a few seconds to this specific timer isn't even a big deal! But the people who seems to be affected by it the least seem to be the loudest, and making it out to be a bigger deal than it really is.

Kind reminder that temptation's path minimum required ilvl is 380, recommended is 570+ per kr's post.

28% of the server plays from outside of USA, this thread is about their gameplay experience, yet look at who downvoted/upvoted.
How many of those are from USA/NA and/or endgame players? How many of those are from players outside of the NA continent, is really at midgame, playing on high ping?
I'm well aware NA players don't have any ping gate issues. This thread isn't about improving your experience as an NA player. Its literally physically impossible for you to experience these problems under normal circumstances.

Still don't know who in this thread falls into the target demographic.

[tribal seal]

"A major hindrance that prevents player growth in this game is precisely this attitude - endgame players with fair access demanding to be convinced about a fix to poorly implemented midgame content access GATES that heavily affects midgame or lower players at a ping disadvantage. "

Can you please expand on a couple items:

• What do you constitute as lower player?

• Are you saying that Lower Players are capable of clearing that mechanic even with lower ping?

"The best part - adding a few seconds to this specific timer isn't even a big deal! But the people who seems to be affected by it the least seem to be the loudest, and making it out to be a bigger deal than it really is."

My concern isnt necessarily about gating, rather, the mechanic was placed there intentionally as a DPS check. There is a clear vision of the kind of players they want to have clear this DPS check. I am unaffected whether the timer is increased or not, but what is affected is the integrity of the content. Increasing the timer by 3sec is not doubling the time, so that may not affect the integrity much. However, once you lower it to meet High Ping Players, then are we worried about lower end players? Can you establish a line that we shouldnt cross? If we keep giving mice cookies, we end up with a game where evryone one shots, and the hand out end game gear like candy for no real gratification to what they are doing.

So please forgive my skepticism, as it is not aimed at your current circumstances, nor am I interested in barring you or people in your situation from the content. I dont like slippery slopes and I want to clarify where we can get clarification.

"Kind reminder that temptation's path minimum required ilvl is 380, recommended is 570+ per kr's post. "

I am no fan of gear score, but since we are here, mabinogi used to be a game where anyone with anything, could enter anywhere, and there would still be a shot at completion. So DPS checks arent necessarily soemthing that I entirely agree with to begin with. But we have them, and the Devs think they need them, and so they are holding integrity on DPS checks, and so these discussions are happening. Just so you understand where the heart is from me on the matter.

"28% of the server plays from outside of USA, this thread is about their gameplay experience, yet look at who downvoted/upvoted.
How many of those are from USA/NA and/or endgame players? How many of those are from players outside of the NA continent, is really at midgame, playing on high ping?
I'm well aware NA players don't have any ping gate issues. This thread isn't about improving your experience as an NA player. Its literally physically impossible for you to experience these problems under normal circumstances.

Still don't know who in this thread falls into the target demographic."

A lesson in life - Polls and Surveys will almost never speak to the vast majority who are Lurking and not interacting, nor does it count for those even paying attention. How many EU/OCEANA players out of that 28% care to be in this feedback thread? I can name a few who are never going to observe this feedback thread to give their opinion.

Instead of lambasting me on "being like them", can you stop ignoring that I have said multiple times that i observe week in and week out, EU and OCEANA players that clear this content? You seem to be ignoring that I am among these high ping players you seem to think can never clear this content. My people's experience is different than yours. Which one is the abnormality? You and those in your situation, or the people I know in their situations?

I am running out of words due to limits, but I saw your ping count, and yes, I know people that are clearing this content within the bottom half of your range in ping. Again, i play with OCEANA and EU players week in and week out.

Anecdotally; I have had ISP issues in the summer of 2012 for a month that gave me 5000 ping to the server. Beyond unplayable. Played anyway

[hollow gull]

"Midgame or lower" as in up to and including midgame.

Well aware of the facts you described, including your ping experiences as you've mentioned it in other places. iirc you're an endgame player. Please kindly read back about accessing glen vhm.

Really can't help but notice this thread has highlighted the survivorship bias in the community.

Still wondering about the demographic who reacted on this thread & will continue to wait for feedback from appropriate players who meet said criteria.

[tribal seal]

"Still wondering about the demographic who reacted on this thread & will continue to wait for feedback from appropriate players who meet said criteria."

There is no harm in waiting for like-wise players to help grant feedback.

"Midgame or lower" as in up to and including midgame."

You are going to have to excuse my ignorance. Everyone in these threads seems to have different thresholds to describe midgame and early game. I'll help.

When you refer to "lower" specifically, what gear do you have in mind that fits that criteria?

"Really can't help but notice this thread has highlighted the survivorship bias in the community."

No, we should calculate for those who are not clearing mechanic when they otherwise would have if the ping was good.(I think we agree on this).

The point I am making, rather, is that we have limited people in here saying "hey, this could be helpful to me too" mixed with some NA perspective, yet... nothing from the rest of the 28% of the out of region community. I think it does a disservice to assume either way based on however we are sampling. Only one of us is asking a question... what is the differing factors of EU and OCEANA players clearing, and you and people in your position not clearing? I am not getting any answer for that, and seemingly and conveniently the question has been ignored multiple times. I am either left to assume that you are...

• Too frustrated since you think I am in opposition to your stance entirely.

or

• You truly do not know, and perhaps afraid you could be an outlier

or

• Feel that your question was answered earlier by saying "They have better gear"

Instead of hiding behind "-isms" and "-ships" we can answer the question to better educate the engager. You posted a lot of info about ping, stances on gear, gating, and the whole 9 yards. I read it and fulfilled your request to get caught up. I apologize that I initially glossed the thread. However even after going through it, I still hold the same questions.

Why one group in your demographic clears, and you struggle? What is a lower player? Are you insinuating an early game player should clear that DPS check?

If you want the Devs to change a mechanic these questions need solid answers.

I feel like you shut down when met with what you perceive as hostility, and I am genuinely trying to reach you here, while sharing that I hold some reservations on "DOUBLE THE TIME". You are now later mentioning adding a few seconds. I can get behind a few seconds. But Double on what feels like an already generous amount of time(30 seconds) is quite substantial and I think defeats the purpose of the DPS checks and their intended thresholds. (Now if we want to argue the existence of a DPS check to begin with, then I think we may have common ground.)

What I have learned:

• Ping Data is valuable to understanding the hardships of those outside the ideal zone for playing Mabinogi

• People with high-end gear with high ping are clearing content

• People with mid-game gear with high ping are still clearing content

• When questioned about Bullet 3, I am met with "I answered it already" and then repeated dismissal. When after fine combing the thread, I found no answer to how people reletively in your shoes are still clearing.

• And that you feel low end gear should still clear the DPS check(which is not the intended audience anyways for Temptations Path)

Final point:

I also think you are glossing over the other aspect that I really think needs to be highlighted.

Prior to 2012, Mabinogi used to have client sided actions. Your earlier image covered concept that is happening that every action we have now, after 2012, the action asks the server for the action, and the server confirms and responds back to us, so it takes double the time per action. This wasnt the case before. UE5 might go back to pre-2012. If they plan for this, then this may be why we will never see a change until then. Devs have bigger fish to fry.

[hollow gull]

Fam. Brother. Sister. Mamsir. your posts are too verbose but i read it all because you put so much effort into them. but they are so long mate. You can't just gloss other people's walls of texts, then write another wall of text as a reply and expect others to read it, that's just my personal opinion. So when it's evident that someone's glossed over what i wrote, i simply match their energy and put in the same effort they've put in to reading my posts.
Your Q's have already been answered in one way or another, hence no need for either of us to sound like a broken record. Not ignoring you or shutting down, the answers you're looking for are in the posts. I'm in OCE, you'd know that if you read my posts. I already mentioned the gear score recommended for this dungeon by kr, which helps guide what gear makes "mid or lower" - a fact directly from kr, not my personal opinion. If you're unfamiliar with the ilvls, refer to labanyu's extensive chart for ilvls and you can easily figure it out from there. Doubling the timer == a few seconds. I've read multiple times that you and your friends have no issues clearing content, that's fine, this post isnt for you and your crew. I've literally ran the numbers, it's up there, that answers your question already. I've posted numbers but you've yet to. I've asked you to deliver numbers from you and your friends, but you haven't yet, and i'll continue to patiently wait for those numbers. A whole heap of other questions i've asked in the thread has been ignored as well, thats fine, food for thought at least. I said I can't clear with the same gears that clears harder content than temptation's path. Didn't say low end gear, not sure where that came from.

I wasn't here long enough to know about any client sided action updates. AFAIK mabi runs on TCP.

Your opinion is heard just fine, no need to explain further. Just want to hear from other players who fall in the targeted bracket.

[tribal seal]

I dont have the numbers from our OCE and EU crew, but I can see if they are interested in recording a snippet from a run to share with you. I am all for that.

For the record I knew from past threads you were EU or OCE. There was a lot to read when catching up(I actuallly read it on the second pass) and I may have misremembered where you were from exactly. My Bad.

I'll see what i can do to gather some insights for you from our end.

As far as Gear score, I have reviewed that guide/chart before and its well put together. Regardless of my opinion on gear score, the issue is a bit more complicated as Gear score does not take upgrades, special upgrades, reforges, Erg, Holy Flame/Murias into account. Its a false-equivalency for KR to say that any respective gear score is "recommended" when some of the most important parameters are not being calculated for. So on that note, I reject gear score from the discussion, not because of you, but due to it being a broken litmus for gearing in content. I would like not a borrowed definition, but your own definition for what you feel is mid, or lower end gear. Thats what I am truly after, is your perception. I can work through a discussion easier with you when I have that.

For me, its somewhat about Graded Tiers, Enchants, Reforges, Set Effects and Special Upgrades. A little bit of everything can help determine damage output. Gear score helps you or I as much as a strainer thats bottomed out. Nothing gets caught, and your dish is down the drain.

[tribal seal]

Here are some number figures from one member...

They changed to Non-Spirited Bow, at 247 Ping, No Gach gear, no Cean Bliana, used Song at 28% BFO, and FW 5231 on self. Other party member stand down to let the recording member solo Succubus.

Hope this rounds out context. If you need any alterations to this at that ping let me know!

[plush ocean]

I'm not in OCE, and instead am on the East Coast of the USA, but I regularly have 200+ Ping, and I still clear these on the regular, solo. Internet Infrastructure ain't so good, go figure. Whether you like it or not, I have plenty of experience with high ping in Mabi. I couldn't even play the game when I started, back in 2008 or so, because my latency did not allow for loading skills fast enough to play the Defense->Attack->Windmill paper-rocks-scissors game.

Oensong's provided plenty of his own accounts and honestly good faith questions on this matter (your gear matters, your skills matter, and no, nothing in this topic immediately answers questions about either) and even video proof of players at 200+ ping clearing content you have previously vaguely stated was impossible at that level of latency, and it feels like the responses end up being dismissive, patronizing, or overall conflating multiple different issues with ping with the topic at hand in order to to try and legitimize the subject's title complaint (which is specifically Phantasm's Black Rose event duration, not the ping issues with the rest of the game's content), which is why you're getting so much pushback, by the by.

Otherwise, we get long rambling, sometimes unclear posts about random skills such Astral Reave (Are you trying beat the succubus with Astral Reave? If so, that's probably the issue), links to unrelated topics and messages, unbidden math blocks with questionable inclusions about hypothetical ping-gates and durations, which isn't automatically correct just because no-one wanted to engage with it -- honestly, I kind of just read it and wasn't convinced by it because it was written like a Steiner Math parody. Sorry, I know that's harsh, but that's just how it came off.

The problem with 'adding a few seconds' to the duration is that the logical extreme and extension of that mentality is essentially that we eventually remove any sort of 'limited time' mechanic from the game. Because there will always be someone with worse ping, or worse reaction speed, or worse ISPs. This made worse because the simple, opposing argument is 'just do a bit more DPS'. If you think the problem can be solved by adding a few seconds to the duration, then it can also be solved by you doing a tiny bit more DPS, and there's plenty of ways to do that. And one of these is far more easier to implement than the other.

You've outright said that you have difficulty finding parties for content meant for party play, due to time zone differences and NA 'dead' times, which validates at least half of the arguments against this subject complaint, which are that you're trying to solo 4-player content and/or are potentially undergeared, underdeveloped, or that there may be a gameplay discrepancy on your part. At this point, I have to outright question your gameplay, gear, and skill development, especially since you've seemed reluctant to answer questions regarding those. Would you like to arrange a time so that I can personally escort you through the dungeon and see if there's something that can be improved? I can at least offer a free Phantasm Temptation run, even if you disregard any advice I can provide.

I'm sorry you're having trouble with the game, and yes, latency is absolutely a problem with a lot of mechanics in the game. Literally everyone has agreed with this. The point of contention remains on whether the Black Rose events are one of them. Your opposition contends that they are not, and frankly, I think we're pretty solid in our arguments, biased as I am.

[tribal seal]

I'd like to offer the same, and even include having the same OCE player from the video above present to offer OCE advice if you need appeal to authority on the matter if my NA opinion is not qualified for you.

I have helped that player and many other high ping players do content, and I am not low enough to underhand someone's playing experience when its negative, frustrating, or seemingly impossible. I dont mind coaching.

[hollow gull]

Like i said i match the energy of the replies. Out of many things that's been said, there's cherry picking going on. You're invalidating and dismissing other peoples experiences and opinions as much as you're suggesting of me. This thread isn't just about my personal mabinogi experience, it's also about the inherently bad game design that effectively causes these unfair side effects resulting in the form of ping gates affecting many others and providing a varied player experience. I didnt think there was a need to explain that but here we are. Sorry if that sounds condescending but maybe it's more my fault that i wasn't good enough with the wording in my posts. Why people are supportive of a bad game design, there's some psychology behind that which i don't understand. Logically the access to the dungeon shouldn't be time gated in the first place, e.g.per glen vhm (mentioning this for the 3rd time now)

Agree to disagree and move on?

The core question remains unanswered - who is a real midgame/high ping/non NA player that can provide insight into their experiences.

[tribal seal]

The video provided is not insight of that criteria?

• Midgame
• Non-NA
• High Ping

[hollow gull]

Thank you, I already thumbs reacted as soon as I read and watched your post.
Thanks for clarifying they're not in NA in your follow up post. Your video post specified "They changed to", and didn't specify they were a midgame player who isn't up to running/never been to glen hm+ or bri.

I hate sounding like a broken record, but i'll take responsibility for being incompetent with my words in my first post by elaborating.

For those still wondering why you should keep reading back wrt to gear, it's because that was already part of the initial point brought up in the opening post, which was then thoroughly explained throughout the thread. I think it's unmistakable atp that there's no further need to keep re-emphasising the need for better gear to clear existing content to compensate for ping. Everybody seems to be in agreement on that.

It's been established from the opening post & throughout the thread, that this is a multifaceted problem, which includes gear(again see 3rd sentence in opening post). It's evident that some agree/disagree that this is a multifaceted issue.

It's been established that ping gates are recognised. We're just missing direct, first-hand experience/feedback wrt accessibility of the dungeon from more than just 1 or 2 players who meet the criteria, hopefully about a dozen at least.

A core issue with this mechanic - and generally across the board for mabi's combat content - is accessibility. i.e. helping the disadvantaged minority. The main purpose of increasing accessibility is to level the playing field, i.e. bring fairness by alleviating inherent ping disadvantage, which the players are currently compensate for, by improving gears/skill above the intended threshold for combat content(again see 3rd sentence in opening post).

[tribal seal]

They switched in from Ruin with non-Spirited Demo..

Is that disqualifying it for you? Thats an OCE player in Asia, with ping between 245 to 260. Using Midgame gear.

I dont know what else I can say. Do you want help beyond being told what gear to get? Strategy? Debuff sequence? I can coach it in real time. My offer stands.

Edit: Sorry, re-read, and misread the book end on first line. @hollow gull Yes, they are midgame, but that player is not vocal about difficulties on Bri/Glenn HM. Not exactly in your shoes. However, they are running your ping and clearing mechanics you are referring too in the OG post.

[sleek pasture]

Keep in mind this is the feedback forum and not the ask-a-milletian forum.

[plush ocean]

This just seems like you're picking fights, at this point. You've been rude and condescending throughout the entire thread, even when people have offered to help you or asked questions to try and help get to the bottom of the difference between your experience and others. There's no 'matching energy' going on here; you're being snide toward people who have posted plenty of reasonable arguments against your suggestion. Having to do something in a limited amount of time is not bad game design. Full stop. That's completely subjective.

At the end of the day, you've told everyone else they don't know what they're talking about, dismissed every other experience and argument despite similar latency values based on arbitrary criteria (regional difference is meaningless if you both have the same ping values; latency is latency, no matter where you're located), you're accusing everyone of supporting 'bad game design' in a condescending manner because you refuse to accept logistical realities of a game server you're connecting to in another country, and you refuse to attempt to work around the issue.

I'm out. I don't think anything productive is going to come from this thread since any discussion is just going to be met with deflection and condescension.

[sleek pasture]

-# And there needs to be no agreement, provided there is civility.
Nyaart chi's opinion is as valid as our own and others, even if we disagree with each other. However if the thread devolves into hostilities and unconstructive bickering, it will be locked.

[hollow gull]

Since you keep on insisting:

OCE and Asia are two different continents - they're literally hours of flights apart.

To put into perspective, by plane: every line indicates a distance of about 1.6k km. The numbers indicate approx. hrs of flight from the green dot.

From where I am to the closest SEA country, is about 4 hours flight. To the furthest is an 11 hour flight.
For my packets to get to NA, they must cross the equator presumably through the pacific ocean. The equator crosses the group of SEA countries at about its 1/3 point. I'm at about half-point between the equator and the start of Antarctica.
It's about 5-6 hours flight from one end to the other end of USA in the East-West direction.
It's about 15 hrs flight from oregon to sydney.
I think it's pretty fair to want to hear responses from fellow players in my vicinity? (that literally doesn't mean i'm discounting other people in the world)

Switching gear doesn't fit the criteria as stated above. I think we can all agree obtaining a piece of late/endgame gear marks for a celebration for officially stepping out of midgame and into later game. We already know ruin easily grants access to this dungeon. I sold my max roll 5p ruin a while ago way before new rise, because it made the game too easy and boring(crom100, glen vhm, theta) to the point where the nothing was challenging anymore, and the lack of challenge almost made me quit. Mabi is most enjoyable at midgame where you have more things left to do other than chase overpriced bis, thats my take. There's enough talk and attention on late/endgameplay, but not enough for early/midgameplay, which is my primary focus.

@Silhy I hear you, respect you and your post. I insist I don't need you or anyone's help with this content, this thread wasn't a cry for help or strategy. but if you insist, feel free to DM me.

Just wanting to hear from more people, if that's an okay thing to wait for.