Reorder channels

[devout thicket]

that comes across so awfully and snarky

[gilded warren]

Okay. I'm on my laptop.

Would anyone object to splitting out a new thread to workshop how we can fix the mod behavior here?

[craggy drift]

thanks, I think this was worded really well

[neon sinew]

isn't it because your "that's backwards imo" also had some sort of initial snark?

[glossy dawn]

(multitasking so I get this is a bit late, but I would very much like to back this up. Slowmode is for when mod processing capacity is below channel velocity)

[regal plover]

i mean, that's not what i remember, though it's hard to make a judgement on a conversation that was a while ago without it being colored by other things that happened later on so i'm not sure

[gusty timber]

well, there's also a difference between a disagreement and e.g. homophobic trolling from disingenuous trolls

[devout thicket]

no? interpreting snark in that is definitely on you as it's a completely normal statement. "that's backwards in my opinion" isn't snarky at all. it's a perfectly normal sentiment and response to something

[gilded warren]

(Maybe we should just make a new thread for channel organization and use this one for that )

[oak cloud]

There were 3 mods in the channel at the time.

[crystal drum]

you (well, primarily your mods) preach not escalating a convo just because someone else did first, but you dont seem to heed this advice yourself, thats my main gripe

[neon sinew]

the sad thing is that I was trying my best not to be snarky

[fierce flame]

I'm clocking out of this discussion, hope things go well, good nite

[sudden sorrel]

I mean my first point would be to follow the code of conduct...

[neon sinew]

but I still came across as that

[gilded warren]

(Can you name who? I hope I'm not counted, because I was only occasionally available.)

[neon sinew]

good night

[regal plover]

sleep well anden

[gilded warren]

Well, yes.

[glossy dawn]

moderation is not trivially parallel. Ask me how I know. The one rule I myself try to stick to is that if I apply slowmode for the reason that I'm getting heated, then I should also obey it myself

[gilded warren]

g'night anden

[craggy drift]

that's fair, we might've been around at different point and might be emphasizing different parts in our memory now

[neon sinew]

yes, I made a mistake. it's just that I knew that if I just muted them, I'd also get backlash either way.

like, he was cornerning me

I felt cornered

[crystal drum]

or you... could have just stepped away

[gilded warren]

I'm going to agree with borger on that one.

[crystal drum]

this is exactly what your mods preach to me when it happens to me

so take their advice

[regal plover]

you could always ask someone else to handle it, and there were a few other mods around

[gilded warren]

If you feel cornered, here's what I think you should do: Back away, ask another mod to deal with it.

[crystal drum]

you werent cornered, there were many other mods that could have taken over in case stuff got bad

[devout thicket]

their criticism was barely cornering, it was completely reasonable and only got agitated after the slowmoding

[neon sinew]

he touched on something very deep, personal and that resonates with my identity. that's why I had the reaction I had. I just could not allow myself to step away and let him think the wrong things about me

[devout thicket]

wtf man

[gilded warren]

ah is this one of the deleted messages

i didn't see what they were

[crystal drum]

that doesnt excuse it

[gilded warren]

nevertheless, I'd prefer you asked another mod for that

[devout thicket]

it was a discord change, you shouldn't be taking this deeply or personally - that is a serious lack of maturity on your part

[neon sinew]

I don't think it excuses his actiions either though. He was warned :c

[regal plover]

it wasn't clear what he was being warned for

[crystal drum]

this isnt about their actions

[neon sinew]

it might have been a bad decision

[devout thicket]

nothing june said was even remotely worthy of a ban or even a mute. you threatened them multiple times with a ban and a snarky ultimatum that quite frankly was disgusting to see

[sudden sorrel]

Melo, you have to be able to deal with that as a mod

[shadow lily]

As a creator I can relate but I will say... let your ego die or suffer with it. The reason it gets to that point in the first place is Melo is not willing to test his own assumptions. This is always how it plays out. Starts off with simple prompts to test ones own assumptions which is what healthy discourse should stay at. "What about... X" or "Are you sure... Y". But Melo never does this while demanding everyone else does. For it to be healthy it has to be reciprocal.

[oak cloud]

Yeah. Definitely changed my opinion about melo

[sudden sorrel]

If you don't stuff like this happens

[craggy drift]

I think it was correct to apply some moderative action on June, since they were refusing to engage the discussion in a helpful way and repeatedly refusing Melo's wish to read a piece of text that's important for the conversation. I do not agree that a ban or a mute or a warning should've been the tool of choice here, it might've been better to just end the conversation

[neon sinew]

it wasn't, but the reason is: he touched on something very deep, personal and that resonates with my identity. that's why I had the reaction I had. I just could not allow myself to step away and let him think the wrong things about me

I was trying to fix the issue by getting him to read and understand the server guide, and then maybe reconsider to see if I applied the proper UI and UX practices that I know.

[granite minnow]

Ultimately, we're all invested in Rust and in this server. It's normal to have disagreements over something we all care about, and that shouldn't be interpreted as being cornered IMO.

[neon sinew]

that would've been the happy path in that situation

[crystal drum]

you shouldnt be moderating and especially making big changes if you are subject to that happening and not being able to handle it properly

[devout thicket]

i'm sorry but if you have outbursts like that, in response to criticism, i don't think you have the maturity needed to moderate a server like this

[gilded warren]

Hm.

[neon sinew]

I didn't think I would 7 years ago when I made this server. but sometimes, things like this happen.

that is life

[craggy drift]

I disagree, this is not about anyone's ego, it's 1. natural to be stressed out when criticized over a long duration and 2. partially also that people were refusing to let Melo test his assumption by keeping this change for a few days and waiting to see what it feels like

[gilded warren]

Everyone, including melo, can we take a break?

[crystal drum]

i think you should really just take a long break

[sudden sorrel]

We know, we just want you to do well as a mod

As the main mod

[crystal drum]

of course its natural, but anyone moderating should be able to step away

you expect users to do it, why not the ones with most authority?

[regal plover]

i think you need to be able to handle someone having a different opinion about a field you're interested in for something like this, though
like i don't want to say you shouldn't be a mod or something, but i think you should probably try to work on that

[crystal drum]

youve made this exact argument against me, why is it not the same with melo

[craggy drift]

yeah, i agree with this statement

[crystal drum]

why is the answer not "just step away"

[glossy dawn]

so... I have a couple people who tell me to take a step back when I'm getting heated. Did anyone do that for Melo? Because I don't think there's many people who never need that reminder

[sudden sorrel]

I like Melo as main mod, but not if this is what we do to your mental health

[gilded warren]

Here's why I think we should all take a break from this conversation: I believe everyone by now will be quite stressed, and I've seen the same several things said repeatedly in the last several minutes.

[craggy drift]

i'm not saying that "melo should've stepped away" is an incorrect statement, I'm asking people for some empathy towards their fellow rustaceans

[glossy dawn]

and you'll be very short on mods if doing that unassisted is the standard

[slender root]

I think the ego part came came from "can't let someone think something incorrect about me"

[granite minnow]

mods should set the example because they are usually not subject to being moderated in the first place

[craggy drift]

it is, no one has disagreed with you

[neon sinew]

I try! I just need people to cooperate with me. If I ask them to read the id:guide and they instead reply with "I won't because it shouldn't be needed because of UX facts that have been researched by people more intelligent than you"... that leaves a bad mark, you know? What would it hurt them to say "Ok, I'll read the server guide because you want me to". Or "I won't read the server guide. I'll try the server out a bit more and see if the channels are intuitive without the server guide as you explained before".

[crystal drum]

especially the owner

[crystal drum]

Ok

[devout thicket]

nobody at any point said "more intelligent than you"

[craggy drift]

Anden and one other person did that, but I think you're aware of the tunnel vision people easily get in this situation

[regal plover]

sure, but i don't think it makes sense to ask regular users to do that for the staff (especially considering it can be kind of intimidating to do that for someone that can choose to take punitive action against you)

[glossy dawn]

"setting an example" is not the same as "being flawless"

[neon sinew]

I've warned mods before. everyone, including me, is subject to the rules here

[neon sinew]

[crystal drum]

this seems very misguided, its not about intelligence, its about experience and sheer volume of study

[glossy dawn]

oh, yes, I very much have specific people who can do that for me, because there's a level of trust there

[sudden sorrel]

I think that's a fine thing, but sadly the way it came across was that you ment it as a general thing not just for June and the others. They were advocating for others in their responses. So you started talking past each other and it went downhill

[gilded warren]

Sometimes I wish I could mute you and demand you take a break lol

[gusty timber]

i understand you felt attacked. but even if someone is saying bad things about you, you're in a position of respect here. you are the person who runs this server. it is actively harmful to this server if you can't maintain that respect (as is being seen here), so getting mad at someone like that is really not okay, from a community perspective. feeling attacked isn't fun, but you're losing a lot more from acting impulsively (i recognize that this is a strong word, but i don't know how else to phrase this) than you do from one person thinking something wrong about you. if you need to correct that, you can do it with a level head in a couple minutes. just a little bit of feedback and my perspective on what happened here. apologies if it isn't coherent, it's just a long thought stream.

[craggy drift]

I agree with you that June's response was not optimal, but you should've taken it on the meta level and disengaged, IMO

[crystal drum]

transfer ownership to me, a neutral third party

[gusty timber]

with all due respect borger, that sounds fucking awful

[neon sinew]

whenenver they were replying with "There are UX studies that show..." I already knew all that. I studied that. them continuing to say it to me just aggravated me, because to them I looked like an idiot that didn't understand UX/UI, when the reality is that I do

[glossy dawn]

glad to see there's still room for jokes

[crystal drum]

i promise i will probably not delete #async

[devout thicket]

that is a complete misinterpretation of what was being said and that kind of reaction isn't great for moderation

[craggy drift]

that's absolutely a correct analysis, but i'd like you to go one step further and think about why Melo picked the word "intelligent" specifically

[neon sinew]

oooooh

[devout thicket]

taking people citing studies to you as a criticism of your intelligence is deeply wrong

[crystal drum]

because he took it the completely wrong way?

[neon sinew]

I will! just let me catch up to the end of this channel!

[oak cloud]

Just had a moment of “ahah I won’t react to that message beca I don’t want to be banned” and that’s not good

[granite minnow]

in practice you are in a position of authority which makes the relation with regular users inherently asymmetrical.

[devout thicket]

i'm off to make burgers

anyone want some

[glossy dawn]

anyway, ehm, @neon sinew, maybe a point to slap a high slowmode on this thing and step away? Several people suggested it by now and as I get more into the conversation I can see why, it feels circular

[gilded warren]

I would love one

[granite minnow]

please

[sudden sorrel]

I do think they went overboard there, but again I think you were talking past each other. Your genuine attempt at making it knowm made it sound like a "I know best" because they thought you were advocating for everyone to read the guide

[gusty timber]

send pictures when done

[craggy drift]

that's correct, but I'd like to ask you to quickly take a break and think about why it came across as a criticism of his intelligence

[devout thicket]

shall try

[regal plover]

don't set a high slowmode, please
i think letting people talk about it and just stepping away is a much better idea for this

[craggy drift]

yes, good. go one step further

[crystal drum]

a regular user going overboard is a lot less dangerous and important than a moderator doing that

[neon sinew]

I'm replying to #1112772986701893632 message as well

Yeah... And that's why I did the warnings. it was not meant to be snarky. it was a call for help. it was like "Please, just do what I say. I genuinely believe you need to do it".

[devout thicket]

this is an inversion of what should be done. i shouldn't be afraid to cite studies backing my opinion up out of fear of making the other person feel like their intelligence is questioned

[glossy dawn]

Melo's the one more or less on trial here. If the conversation doesn't stop, then his stake doesn't stop

[neon sinew]

yes please! I would like a bag of Dick's

[stray sierra]

I thino a high slowmode for meta discussions could be a good thing, i think the realtime nature od discord makes like bikeshedding and talking over people a little too easy

[neon sinew]

if you're ok with that, I'll do that now

[glossy dawn]

ask your bf

[amber canopy]

I see you've been to seattle

[crystal drum]

a high slowmode is not good in an active discussion, because mods bypass it, so its a one-sided screaming match

[oak cloud]

No

[neon sinew]

... I'll adjust the slowmode soon

[craggy drift]

sorry, that's not what I was going for. this wasn't meant as general advice. i'd just like you to do some introspection in this concrete case and try to use some empathy for the other people in this conversation. not because it'll solve the question of how to name channels, but because it'd help us treat each other with more respect

[neon sinew]

yeah, I understand now. I wish he had understood that I was trying to get him specifically to read the guide

[gilded warren]

How about, Melo, you tell us when you've caught up and are leaving, and I'll keep an eye on things after you go, and I'll remove the slowmode when appropriate?

[sudden sorrel]

Looking back (these are hard to tell in the moment) this whole situation was a classic cross talk. Both parties thinking the conversation was about different things. So when an agreement, even an agreement to disagree can't be reached then everyone is left angry thinking the other side is unreasonable

[regal plover]

this is exactly what is currently happening, if there's going to be a slowmode the channel might as well be locked or it should be talked about in mod chat

[glossy dawn]

which is why I said and step away. Honestly, for the mods in here, may I point out a trick I learned: "view server as role", iirc, can let you opt in to the slowmode by picking a role that's held to it

[dusky drum]

yeah this is partly how it went so wrong earlier
although to be fair it seems less heated now so wouldn't go as bad i hope

[fierce flame]

would be great if you could make a slowmode that applied to mods too

[neon sinew]

I've never had any relationships :c

[stray sierra]

Yeah if the mods are gonna constantly bypass slowmode then I don't think its a good idea

[fierce flame]

oh thanks Sara

[neon sinew]

sounds good!

[fierce flame]

I'll keep that in mind next time

[neon sinew]

I CAUGHT UP

thanks for waiting yall

slowmode is now 5 seconds

and I'll go eat rice

[gilded warren]

Bai, enjoy your rice.

[neon sinew]

because I can't afford to eat out

[shadow lily]

I'm not sure how you can say it's not about ego when said person is spam reacting up votes to their own validation.

it's 1. natural to be stressed out when criticized
It is natural to be stressed out but also healthy to regulate your stress and if you want to create things and put your creations out there it is also necessary. Not doing so is irresponsible.

2. partially also that people were refusing to let Melo test his assumption by keeping this change for a few days and waiting to see what it feels like
   That is just a vaccum. It takes an unsustainable kind of hypervigilance for that to be testing. It requires someone that is already ahead of any critique that can be thrown at them to judge their own work ruthlessly like that. It just should not be done because it is unsustainable. It's fucking exhausting. Melo already isn't doing that but this still remains like he is. What is the point in "waiting to see what it feels like" if you don't want to see what it feels like? The things you are getting are a result of "what it feels like".

[crystal drum]

i mean, i have empathy for getting heated and stressed, its happened to me a lot, but the owner is held to a much higher standard, because the worst they can do when heated is 100x worse than what a regular user can do

and its not like you can just stop them and clean up their mess

[regal plover]

on the second point - i'm pretty sure pen was talking about trying to get past the initial wave of people being upset just because it changed to get some more reasonable criticism, to be fair

[dusky drum]

also, as a side note, i appear to have currently no way to even get to read the guide on mobile, so if i had been the one being spammed to read it or else i would probably not have appreciated it

[gilded warren]

yeah I saw the channel link spam from melo while I was skimming, that was yeesh

[regal plover]

i think that in particular is an issue with the new discord mobile ui, which iirc is still not fully complete so it's kind of something you have to expect while using it (since you have to manually enable it)

[sudden sorrel]

Just to expand on this, you could have also seen that you were talking past each other. Either party could have done it, but it didn't happen. And as the mod you are expected to be more capable of noticing and defusing such a situation (though this expectation isn't really founded as we are all just as bad as it). But what you did have control over was your use of mod privileges. Which is where it went very bad

[gilded warren]

It's a shame it's not like, say, "mods can mute each other but not unmute themselves"

lol

[sudden sorrel]

Also sorry for the continuous replies

[shadow lily]

I'm aware. That's exactly what I'm referring to. Disproportionately the reactions to a thing will happen when the thing happens.
"We're gonna release our game but we're gonna ignore the reviews within the first week". Do you see how that's a useless filter?

[glossy dawn]

that "much higher standard" is the point I'm trying to make though: it is possible to set that standard too high. A debate can be had over where it should be, but it cannot be "you can't mess up, ever".

[crystal drum]

no but id expect the mess up to not include banning and consequently permanently deleting messages

[fierce flame]

the deletion wasn't intentional

[regal plover]

i think it'd make more sense to release a "Channel reordering bugs" forum thread and then after a few days make a "Channel reordering feedback" thread maybe

[torpid pier]

(messages being perma deleted was an unintended side effect)

[craggy drift]

I don't think that's the correct comparison here. I'd like to counter with "A review that was made 10 minutes into a game is less useful than a review made after the game is completed"

[oak cloud]

If the mess up means loosing one or more community members then it’s not an acceptable mess up.

[crystal drum]

why is the kneejerk reaction even a ban??

[shadow lily]

Yeah and it's been far longer than 10 mins for all the items we're talking about.

[crystal drum]

id be a lot more empathetic if it was a mute

[torpid pier]

Relative time, they are using 10 mins as an example

[gilded warren]

It should've been a mute at most, and preferably just a "@Moderator, I can't handle this right now" and stepping away.

[torpid pier]

(same)

[gilded warren]

Yes. Though I'd like to note that a sincere apology can go a long way.

[oak cloud]

Only if it’s sincere.

[stray sierra]

What is the current consensus of the mods on the change? Like do you guys think that the change is likely to stay as is or are you considering reverting them?

[sudden sorrel]

From what melo said it was partially because melo wanted June to experience the onboarding. I don't agree with this but that's at least one thing to consider

[torpid pier]

(Anyways I've ran out of semi useful commentary back to trying to sleep I go)

[gilded warren]

Yeah. And part of getting there is making Melo take a break and have time to reflect and what not.

[regal plover]

possibly not the thing we should be talking about currently (or maybe this conversation should be in another thread or something idk)

[stray sierra]

Yeah tbh i dont 100% understand the current conversation, but like this is the channel for discussing the channel renaming right?

[craggy drift]

I don't particularly miss the dedicated beginners channel at the moment, but if people still feel the need for it in a few days, I'd be willing to change my mind

[oak cloud]

Also side note June is still banned. I cannot invite them back

[sudden sorrel]

I think the main thing that's come out of this is to rename some of the stuff to be shorter, but I think we haven't really had any concerns with the structure of the channels per se

[craggy drift]

ideally we'd find a name that doesn't invoke Dunning–Kruger though

[crystal drum]

please just move offtopic higher

[gilded warren]

I'm personally mostly ambivalent to the change, because I had the chance to have the parts that I felt were worse removed ahead of time.
That said, I'm going to be talking with people and gathering feedback.

[crystal drum]

its really annoying as someone who bounces between channels

[gilded warren]

what- i saw an unban earlier

let me find their user and unban them now

[dusky drum]

someone needs to hardwire his watch to his keyboard so on top of beeping it cuts it off for a few minutes

[gilded warren]

oh thank goodness I have a DM with them

-unban 573671856264183809

[deep pewter]

Not a valid previously-banned member.

[granite minnow]

I don't understand the need for three general channels and two Q&A channels. IMO people are still going to misuse them no matter what and it makes it cumbersome to scan over all discussions and confusing for new users.

But honestly I don't even care about that, I'm just shook by how it was handled.

[gilded warren]

aaa

[glossy dawn]

god I wish slowmode was like, a minute, seems like a much better pace for this, but here goes:
a) I think it's useful to distinguish here between ego in the sense of "wanting to feel like one is very important" and ego in the sense of "not wanting to feel like one is (seen as) a dismal failure"

b) yes, emotional regulation is important, but there are also limits. Whether or not reasonable limits were reached is debatable but from the aftermath it does sound like they might have been.

c) I'll agree with the "fait accomplis" warning someone else made, but "let's try this for a few days first" does not imply "and Melo will be the only one who will have any part in evaluation afterward"

[gilded warren]

this is my main current complaint yeah

[sudden sorrel]

They are ment as overflow to reduce stacking multiple questions at the same time

[fierce flame]

I'm sorta preferring the old way, but I'm planning on giving it like a week to see how I and others feel by then

[slender root]

I don't even know where the QA channels are

[regal plover]

oh yeah on the slowmode thing - maybe having a bot that enforces slowmode by deleting messages (including mods, and privately notifying users of how long they have left, with a copy of their message so they can copy and paste it) could be a good idea for situations like this

[crystal drum]

turtle can do it iirc

[regal plover]

hidden by default with the advanced rustacean choice, you need to enable it in channels & roles

[slender root]

I feel like they should be under Rust General

[granite minnow]

I understand that, but I highly doubt this will be the case in practice. New users just want their questions answered so they'll ask in the most active channel 🤷

[crystal drum]

the previous order was fine, i think changing it is nothing but bad

[sudden sorrel]

In the roles you have to either not select advanced user or add them manually

I already brought up the advanced user issue

[slender root]

wat

[regal plover]

turtle doesn't send the message back so you can copy it again, so you can potentially lose really big messages you wrote out which is incredibly frustrating

[fringe lynx]

i like casual being at the bottom for some reason

[slender root]

how do they expect the QA channels to get answers from people with advanced knowledge?

[sudden sorrel]

#1120416206504079502

[craggy drift]

this is admittedly a controversial take and i'm not confident in it, but this might actually a good thing. One problem I've observed a few times in the Rust channels is that sometimes people step into the middle of a conversation with little context and 1. in the best case sap a lot of energy by asking to be brought up to speed, and 2. in the worst case escalate a discussion by misunderstanding someone.

I'm not completely sure yet, but reducing channel hopping might accidentally end up beneficial

[gilded warren]

Okay, @oak cloud, I sent them the invite and said some words on your behalf

err

the invite was on your behalf

the words were me

[dusky drum]

more on-topic: if "advanced" people don't get to see beginners questions, how are they supposed to get actually qualitative answers ?

[regal plover]

this is going to be addressed apparently

[sudden sorrel]

This is why I brought it up already

[crystal drum]

this doesnt fix it, it makes it so annoying for casual lurking, which a significant amount of people do

[slender root]

Having a zillion topical channels was terrible and I'm glad that's gone. I feel like we can KISS better though

[crystal drum]

if it does fix it a little, it hurts more people than helps

[oak cloud]

[sudden sorrel]

They are still there

[gusty timber]

the topic specific ones? those still exist

[slender root]

I mean at the top level

[gusty timber]

they're just role locked (the Clubs thing)

[regal plover]

i think katy means #rust-questions #rust-beginners and #rust-discussion

[craggy drift]

i'm sorry to say but this server has grown beyond KISS levels a long time ago

[gilded warren]

[regal plover]

though now it's just #rust-questions-1 to 2 and #rust-discussion 1 to 3 so i'm not sure if that really makes sense

[slender root]

No, I mean having net and game dev and all that other shit take up like 80% of the sidebar

[regal plover]

oh are you talking about the clubs being a choice now thing

[stray sierra]

Tbh i dont know when i should use a topic channel over one of the discussion or question channels

[slender root]

Yeah. But it can still be a lot simpler than it is, without going back to that hellscape.

[gilded warren]

Okay, now that this thread is back to talking about the channel ordering, I'm going to make a new thread about moderation stuff

[regal plover]

you can use either, you just might get better answers in more specific channels (and people will likely redirect you to the specific channels)

[craggy drift]

your choice, with the understanding that the topic channels are slower, so it's much more likely someone with expertise will see your message

[oak cloud]

That’s not exactly correct.

[granite minnow]

yeah I think that premise is flawed because knowledgeable users tend to gravitate in channels where the most questions are asked, at least that's been my experience.

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah I usually only do that if their question is going to be forgotten in the backlog and I don't know the answer

[stray sierra]

I feel like usually (even on other servers) whenever inask questions in topic channels i get ignored and buried by someone else's question

[slender root]

ig what I'd do if it were me is have a general category with both qa and general discussion, a social category, and a topical category with the topical channels hidden by default. But there'd be one info topical channel visible by default just so that you can see the category exists when you look at the sidebar.

[sudden sorrel]

The form though has been my recommendation since we got it for this

[uncut sorrel]

hi, as an existing user, i was not automatically added to the new rust q&a channels. this may be a problem for people who lurk and only pop in occasionally

[craggy drift]

that's not my experience, most people who know about UB tend to hang out in #dark-arts for example

[crystal drum]

i agree

[sudden sorrel]

You have to manually add them in the roles menu

[craggy drift]

feel free to post a correction

[oak cloud]

Why were the thumbs down on this reset?

[slender root]

it really doesn't help that when you click channels and roles, the first thing to show up is the weird self assessment form and not the actual list

[sudden sorrel]

#1120416206504079502

[regal plover]

i haven't experienced that much in here, though i only really look at #lang-dev out of the club channels so i dunno

[uncut sorrel]

yes i know, i'm saying people who only stop by occasionally (most of this server?) will not see the q&a channels and this is bad

[craggy drift]

yes, that's unfortunately a known issue. you can add it yourself in Channels and Roles

[sudden sorrel]

Yes, melo and the other mods know, assuming they have paid attention to me talking about it for the past few hours

[uncut sorrel]

generally, also, i don't like that you have to explicitly join channels. it seems also bad compared to the system of you're-in-all-channels-and-can-mute-some (this might be more of a general discord complaint)

[slender root]

There's a reasonable middle ground

[craggy drift]

you and at least six other people

[slender root]

Default join the channels most people will generally want to be in

Default not joining the less general ones (mainly the topical ones, also the social ones)

[craggy drift]

that's a discord issue, i'm afraid

[sudden sorrel]

I do like that discord lets you disable channels now instead of just muting them

[placid haven]

You can do that. Select "show all channels" from the drop down menu

[regal plover]

couldn't channels & roles give you roles that hide channels instead of roles that show channels? though tbh i question if that's better for newer users

or is that not how it works?

[sudden sorrel]

This menu

[craggy drift]

we've tried that before. Roles cannot hide channels, only remove your access to them. If you do that, any link to those channels shows up as "No Access", which people understandably found incredibly useless

[sudden sorrel]

Now I can remove the voice channels from my side bar

[uncut sorrel]

yeah, i know. i think this should be default

[regal plover]

oh yeah right, bleh

[gusty timber]

that's a mistake

you'll see why

[regal plover]

and then have them pop up at the bottom whenever people use them :v

[gusty timber]

1 IN VOICE coming right up

[regal plover]

i just have it muted and collapsed but it still does this

discord really wants you to see the voice channels

[amber canopy]

Discord is an excellent piece of software with no flaws whatsoever

[uncut sorrel]

i'm glad that discord is finally fixing channel names + topics being universally accessible with no permissions but it's too bad it breaks this use case 🫤

[sudden sorrel]

On mobile I don't see anything

[granite minnow]

#dark-arts is a bit different from say #rusty-art because it's not a particular application of Rust, it's literally about a core part of the language. But fair. To be clear I'm not advocating to remove the topic channels, merely remarking that beginners who have questions about async might not go to the #async channel necessarily.

[gilded warren]

(In case anyone wants to spectate once we get started, have a link: #1120457656562356234.)

[regal plover]

might only show on desktop then

[sudden sorrel]

Let me go see

[regal plover]

well there's no one in a vc right now :v

[craggy drift]

yes, that's a long-standing issue that no one's really found a good solution to. what i tend to do is that if I see an async question in general/questions/beginners that goes unanswered, I reply "btw, feel free to try in #async again if you don't get a reply"

[sudden sorrel]

hmm yeah, wonder why my mobile doesn't do that

[gusty timber]

huh, i do on mobile

oh no one is in vc right now

[sudden sorrel]

My app was doing this so I am not surprised if it's just broken for me

[sudden sorrel]

Nah I checked when my desktop one showed it

[glossy dawn]

*browses backlog* Discord has yet to receive their Golden Caltrop for that absolute gem of a decision (and when I say gem I mean coprolite)

[amber canopy]

My discord now thinks this thread only has two downvotes

[oak cloud]

Likewise

[granite minnow]

huh same, it had like 20 moments ago

[dusky drum]

my client was showing 20 including mine, reloaded it and now it's 1 and not counting mine

[amber canopy]

Now its 1 lol

[oak cloud]

Yeah I’m just going to assume some mod is removing them

[amber canopy]

I just assume discord is terrible software

[craggy drift]

this is what I see

but i haven't reloaded yet, let me try that

yep, now it's two

[dusky drum]

I just assume discord is terrible software

well on android i get to choose between not seeing everything/lacking features on the new UI or the app getting frozen on my most recent DM thread no matter what server / conversation i tried to open on the old one

[amber canopy]

Ya that sounds about par for the course

[zealous lava]

If you right-click the server icon you can have Show All Channels

[neon sinew]

this is a positive interaction on the new channels! something is working x3

[zealous lava]

Finally backread all of this

[granite minnow]

At the end of the day, I'll always try my best to help others no matter what I think of the changes or how they were handled.

Beginner onboarding is such a crucial aspect of a language's success IMO

[neon sinew]

yesss

[zealous lava]

"Beginner" onboarding experience and channel list

"Intermediate" onboarding experience and channel list

"Advanced" onboarding experience and channel list

[regal plover]

oh the qna channels got added to advanced, nice

[neon sinew]

yeee

Thank you for doing this

this is very helpful

[zealous lava]

might or might not be a result of the channel reordering etc.
[in https://discord.com/channels/273534239310479360/1013046440072839168]

which possibly means that some users got channels hidden from them without interaction on their part I guess?

[neon sinew]

huh

yeah, they'd need to go to id:browse and enable seeing that channel again, or enable the "See All Channels" setting

it's an unfortunate side effect of the new discord features only coming after this server was created, lol

I find it ironic that leaving and rejoining the server would actually fix a lot of these problems. it's kinda like you're rebooting the server lmao

[zealous lava]

Yeah, you have to rejoin all of the threads you were in though :/

And there's the 10 minute timeout

[neon sinew]

that's why I find it ironic. like, I wish discord had a "fix user" button that made their account be processed for updates like the onboarding, but also didn't delete the threads and also did no timeout

[viral quartz]

Pichu has the No Offtopic role

[zealous lava]

oh
well thanks for the clarification

[viral quartz]

np

[neon sinew]

oh that also explains things

[crystal drum]

can we please move offtopic back up

[gilded warren]

I would also like this. That said, I think the plan is to Wait A Little Bit And See first.

[craggy drift]

I'd be fine switching Server and Offtopic as well

[crystal drum]

why does rust voice have to be so high

the previous order was just fine IMO, offtopic, server, then voice

[flat badger]

rust voice is still at the bottom of that hough

[shadow lily]

also I think making voice channels less discoverable than text channels is better because the worst of the trouble making has always happened in voice

[gilded warren]

honestly I wish we'd get rid of VC until we sort out #1116099741571362846 but as a normal user I don't really care where it goes rn because, unlike Server, I can reasonably keep it muted and collapsed

[shadow lily]

they require active moderator presence to moderate

[neon sinew]

yeah

the current order of the channels is also a sort of priority ordering

and I do like server stuff being more important than offtopic stuff, at least for me

but I also acknowledge that I'm the only one who benefits from it, so I'm open to moving offtopic up

AS LONG AS

peple don't give my mods too much of a hard time due to the increased traffic that I expect to come with that change

if I get a few confirmations for that, I'll gladly move the category up c:

I moved voice down a bit tho

does this help already?

[crystal drum]

Server is just really big

And not as frequented as offtopic channels

[neon sinew]

that's also why I think id:browse is helpful. if I configured everything right in the server settings, people should be able to make the server look smaller by customizing their channel list in id:browse

[crystal drum]

but i still want to look at server, i just dont look at it enough to warrant even the collapsed version over offtopic

[neon sinew]

the way to do that is to customize the server to look the way you like it to look at id:browse

if you'd also like to temporarily see all of the channels, you can enable the "See all channels" function

[gilded warren]

I will say, as a mod, I don't consider that an option for me, especially when #mod-reports is in this category

[neon sinew]

(you are an exception :P)

[neon sinew]

the 3rd option is by opting into the channels with id:browse and then mute the channel and have the "hide muted channels" option checked

[gilded warren]

(lol, that's fair. Anyway, let's not start a back and forth with this discussion. Let's just let comments flow in from any additional people who care.)
(edit: this was meant to be a reply to the "you are an exception" comment)

[neon sinew]

@crystal drum you have plenty of options to customize your experience. let me know if any of them work for you and let me know!

[crystal drum]

i mean its better than nothing yeah, but i still think relatively speaking, offtopic is important enough to be above

[neon sinew]

for now I'll keep it as it is since I'm working on improvements to #1120122747348058263 right now

[neon sinew]

I don't think the current showcase allows people to share that they contributed to an open source project. I'll address that later

[harsh sandal]

I was told to ask you about adding a channel for Rust articles.

[gilded warren]

Do you mean like a showcase for articles you write? I think that may have happened, as blog posts are permitted here: #1120122747348058263

Or do you mean like something for keeping track of Rust articles people find?

[harsh sandal]

I idealize it more for learning / understanding topics more in depth. And also it can be used to share related content to people who ask for it or are looking for it.

[neon sinew]

just post them as articles, and then share the articles on #1120122747348058263 ?

[fierce flame]

the context is #1120748524196335617

[harsh sandal]

I've never been there.

(There are so many channels everywhere)

[gilded warren]

Oo that's wonderful

[fierce flame]

ah it was someone else asking for a channel for that then

[leaden venture]

Don't wanna open a thread for this, as it's just an observation:

The rust-general-{1,2,3} channels are seen as general-purpose chit-chat channels now, with lots of off topic discussion happening (as right now in #rust-discussions-1). Or stuff that isn't really off-topic, but... doesn't quite belong in a channel where people might have rust questions.

...and I just noticed my beloved #rust-beginners channel is gone :(

[zealous lava]

rust-beginners was renamed to rust-general-1

[neon sinew]

keep reporting and pinging moderators when that is happening

ok, so currently there's a big general discussion happening in #rust-discussions-1

but #rust-discussions-2 and #rust-discussions-3 are inactive

so I'd sat that this situation is ok

[leaden venture]

I think the problem is rather the channel name. "-beginners" or "-questions" makes the purpose clear, while "-general" means it's more for chit-chat.

[neon sinew]

having 2 inactive channels and a non-exactly-rust-related discussion in rust-general feels ok to me

[neon sinew]

... yes

that's the new meaning

if you want to ask questions, we have #rust-help-1 now

and #981431291683700776

[leaden venture]

Oh I had zero idea that was a new channel. I had to add that manually

[neon sinew]

#rplcs-announcements and id:guide will help you learn more about the recent changes if you're interested c:

[charred lake]

🤔 why was the channel to ask for code reviews removed?

[fiery basin]

rust-questions-and-answers gets cut off, why not name it rust-Q&A or something

[sinful mica]

[heavy wharf]

Maybe I'm getting mandela effect'ed, but I think that was removed way before this set of changes?
(IIRC since at least like January, code reviews go in #981431291683700776 (or whatever it was called before) with the "code review" tag.)

[serene frost]

currently there are 3 discussions going on simultaneously in #rust-discussions-1 one of which is about AI having feelings and decartes torturing dogs while both the other rust generals are dead

I don't think the numbers are doing anyone any favors, we all like #1 apparently

[gusty timber]

i have a semi-joke proposal for fixing this: have the bot cycle the channels every 10 minutes

choose non-numeric names and just move the bottom one to the top of the category

but that depends on people just clicking the top one and not trying to go for the one with most activity. i'm not sure what actually happens.

[haughty sierra]

is there any plan to bring back rust beginners as a channel? i think its a useful distinction to regular questions and answer channels

[candid ferry]

the point of this reordering was to delete beginners

[craggy drift]

Melo removed the word "beginners" because we heard from a lot of people that they stuck to that channel out of a lack of confidence and we wanted them to make more use of the rest of the server.

We're still evaluating whether that achieves this particular goal, though, and whether the price we're paying for it is too high

[haughty sierra]

hmm

from what i have noticed everyone gets clogged in #rust-discussions-1, like beginners, people who just wanna discuss rust, and basic q&a stuff lol

[serene frost]

I said this before the reorder happened and I'll say it again

yall are vastly overestimating peoples ability to load-balance themselves across multiple channels

[buoyant tendon]

ehm

people who want to ask a question and CAN load balance themselfs

dont want to load balance them self because they want a answer in the most populated channel

[serene frost]

unless the channels have different purposes you aren't gonna get 100% throughput

[buoyant tendon]

at least i would want a active channel to ask my question. and not go into a low populated one and wait longer for getting help

[serene frost]

because of contention

[haughty sierra]

tbh. i think more people should learn how to wait

[serene frost]

even if you have different purpose channels you obv still won't get 100% throughput but at least you can expect better load balancing

[buoyant tendon]

yes this 👆

[craggy drift]

duly noted, this'll go into our considerations

[haughty sierra]

having multiple topics in a single channel is very annoying

[serene frost]

you rarely had to wait with the old setup because every channel was active because people bad specific channels they wanted to be in based on purpose

now they have no preference (because all channels are the same) so just naturally crowd to one channel

but the bandwidth of one channel is the same as before, which is the specific issue that is limiting throughput

[craggy drift]

we could name the general channels after people's favorite pokemon edition, that should roughly achieve balance

[serene frost]

doubtful, that still has the exact same issue

[haughty sierra]

also i think it would be a misconception to say that just because no one is talking in a channel doesnt mean it is active

[haughty sierra]

lol pokemon style

[radiant acorn]

from my observation, basically the only active channel is #rust-discussions-1 now, and it gets a mix of high level discussion and beginner questions
its kinda annoying

[haughty sierra]

rename the channels to #rust-general-charmander -bulbasaur and -squirtle lol

[buoyant tendon]

• the general channels description says this: "general discussion about the rust language
• that does not sound a place for beginner questions

[haughty sierra]

nobody reads the channel description

[serene frost]

if I want to see some (casual) rust questions, before I could just go to #rust-questions. now I have to choose one of the generals, so I would obviously choose the one with the most traffic. I don't care about the channel name

[buoyant tendon]

i know. but that wont change xD

so the name must be more useful

[radiant acorn]

but the beginner questions go there anyways, because its the first channel in the server, and people never read

[buoyant tendon]

yes thats my point

[serene frost]

which is fine

that's part of the purpose of the channel

general is generally "whatever goes here"

[buoyant tendon]

for me the rust q/a is above general btw, is this just me?

[haughty sierra]

should people be more aggressive in using the /move command

[serene frost]

which is why it doesn't make sense to have 3 (!) separate places for "whatever"

[haughty sierra]

q/a is above general, because we tried to solve people going to general first lol

[buoyant tendon]

ah well ye that makes sense

[craggy drift]

yes, this is on purpose, to funnel beginners and their questions over there

[serene frost]

fyi

[haughty sierra]

should we link to the question and answer channel in the intro

[serene frost]

I have qna channels hidden still

because I do not want to hop 5 channels

[craggy drift]

i think one of the misconceptions that we didn't adress was that beginners should go to general instead of q&a

[craggy drift]

may i recommend showing one q&a channel and hiding one general channel in turn?

[serene frost]

honestly, I might as well hide general 2 and 3 at this point lol

[haughty sierra]

only relative active channels are qna-1, gen-1 and gen-3 lol

[serene frost]

that being said, I'm generally much more interested in discussions and open ended questions than involved questions anyway

so I'd rather not miss any of the generals

[buoyant tendon]

this could be solved by renaming the q/a to

Rust-beginner
Rust-intermediate
Rust-gigachad

or smth

[craggy drift]

noted

[serene frost]

hard disagree, noone is gonna use gigachad

[buoyant tendon]

the last one was not a serious suggestion

[craggy drift]

were you around for the long and exhausting discussion for why we want to avoid the term "beginner"? i genuinely don't remember at this point

[serene frost]

(I know that's a joke name but point holds)

beginner should be about "please handhold me" not some kind of spectrum

having intermediare/advanced turns the scale into a linear one rather than a boolean one

[craggy drift]

i wonder if the q&a channels and the help forums should just be renamed to rust-help-{1..3}

[haughty sierra]

the problem is that there isnt really a boundary whether ur considered a beginner or an intermediate, so everyone just go to beginner even if their query is somewhat intermediate

[serene frost]

which is another rabbit hole that I doubt will do us any favors

[buoyant tendon]

they 100% need a rename

[serene frost]

I still think we don't actually need qna channels and the forum is enough

[haughty sierra]

honestly agree the name is too long

[buoyant tendon]

on desktop app they are snipped away anyway

so a little shorter would be nice

[serene frost]

do we have any evidence to suggest that we need the non forum question channels?

[craggy drift]

maybe just to keep these #1112766051927728178 readable, could you open a new thread about the rename specfically?

[haughty sierra]

disagree, i don't want to mix objective questions and open-ended questions in channels

[craggy drift]

a large faction of users hate discord forums with a passion and will not use them

[buoyant tendon]

#1122469821896994939 message

[serene frost]

I won't either, but that doesn't mean we need 5 whole text channels for questions. maybe we can delete one general and delete one qna channel, so that we have 3 channels... oh wait

[buoyant tendon]

there are no 5 channels for questions

[haughty sierra]

lol

[serene frost]

anyway we pretty clearly have a problem with traffic that we didn't have before, so either the rename or the increased number of channels is the issue

[buoyant tendon]

its 2 + forum + 3 generals for discussion

[serene frost]

generals are also for questions

[buoyant tendon]

not sure i understand the problem. can you reiterate it?

[haughty sierra]

i think questions should definitely have more channels, but i dont see general to be congested that much

[serene frost]

among other things

[serene frost]

what if we had one general, one beginner questions channel, and one general questions channel?

[haughty sierra]

beginners never moved on to other channels because they think theyre still a beginner

that's the perceived problem, which i dont see tbh

[radiant acorn]

*archive
the genchats were formerly beginners|questions|discussions, we def dont want to delete all the stuff in those backlogs

[craggy drift]

in short, a lot of people will low confidence restrict themselves to the beginners channel and don't explore the rest of the server

[buoyant tendon]

in a way that can make sense. but i would assume its because of what i said earlier. people dont want to go to less active channels to get help (maybe im wrong here)

[radiant acorn]

has there been an example of this?

[craggy drift]

it's not a problem easy to become aware of unless you have people straight-up telling you, yeah

[haughty sierra]

tbh. i want people to stop the belief that no chatters == inactive

it is kinda obvious that that multiple people discussing multiple topics in a channels would not really be good, and having more people talking in a channel means more chance of not being ignored is incorrect

[buoyant tendon]

if i go to this server again when i start learning more rust and i see 5 possible channels

• one has eyeofjunes+harudagondi+honzza who are already helping someone
• the other one has two people talk about compiler details
• the other one has people talking about AI
• the other two are inactive
  why would i ever not go to the first one even if im a intermediate and need help in rust?

[serene frost]

I know I've said this multiple times in your presence but can I actually get your opinion on this?:
what do you think about a 3-way split of "rust-assistance" (handholdy assume ignorance help)
"rust-questions"
"rust-general"
(Names to be bikeshedded)

[haughty sierra]

because there are people talking and it is somewhat rude to intrude (imo)

i'd rather ask my question in an inactive channel tbh

[buoyant tendon]

do you think that? so when u help someone and another person asks another question. you think this is rude

[craggy drift]

i'd be fine with a threeway split if we found a good name for whatever replaces rust-beginners

[oak cloud]

This whole think is so mentally taxing I don’t want to interact with the server anymore.
I used to read every channel but now I don’t really know the topics of channels that well. It’s hard to navigate the server things are becoming more and more sectioned off.
I don’t feel like I can talk about the problems the reorder has because the times I’ve tried I was told my feedback wasn’t good enough.
I’d like to think that 24 thumbs downs compared to the two check marks is a good enough indication that something is wrong.

[serene frost]

why can't I react to messages :(

[oak cloud]

I have you blocked. Discord doesn’t let blocked people react to people that blocked them. It’s kinda stupid IMO but oh well

[haughty sierra]

to be honest. it is kinda annoying that there are multiple people having multiple topics and someone decided to contribute to the cacophony. that is why i don't like #offtopic and rather chat in #focused-chats personally

[oak cloud]

Rudeness doesn’t factor in as much when someone just wants help

[buoyant tendon]

me too 💀

[serene frost]

[craggy drift]

thanks for the feedback, we'll take it into consideration

one small note about the emojis: the checkmark means "has been done", not "is a good change"

[serene frost]

well in any case I agree with what gayble said lmao

[flat badger]

yes but then that's seen as "killing the conversation"

[craggy drift]

it's meant for issue tracking

[buoyant tendon]

when there was still beginners channel

was there any definition of what is a beginners question

[craggy drift]

nah, it was mostly vibes based

[haughty sierra]

there's not really a definition

if i had to make up one i'd probably say "have not finished the rust book"

[buoyant tendon]

why dont we open a channel like

• rust booklings

where people are only allowed to ask question about book-topics?

[craggy drift]

cute idea, but i'm not sure that'd be easily understandable for booklings

[oak cloud]

If I have to make a choice between 1/2/3 I’m always picking the one with the highest activity.
With beginner intermediate and advanced I can atleast make a half assed guess about what kind of question it is and drop it in the right place

With the new system my methodology would be go to highest activity chat drop the question and if I don’t get the answer, work on a new project or go to casual chat and kill time

[craggy drift]

not confident on that though

[radiant acorn]

if we want a new name for rust-beginners
first-month?
gives a cutoff and the idea of new to the lang, although it lumps programmers from other langs with total newbies
just a thought

[craggy drift]

counter-point: if you drop your question in the highest activity channel, it's most likely to get scrolled out of view and ignored

like, the specific point about multiple channels was to avoid congestion

[oak cloud]

I’m absolutely confident that you say that.

[buoyant tendon]

i cant say that ever happened to me when i ask a question

but i might have asked in less active times

[craggy drift]

and i'd like to remind people that "we should have multiple numbered questions and discussion channels" was suggested a lot in the past

[craggy drift]

i remember a few times in the past when beginner questions didn't get answered because an ongoing matter pushed them off the screen

[haughty sierra]

yeah i have seen multiple times where that happened

[haughty sierra]

ur questions usually isnt ignored because theyre very basic which means everyone knows how to answer those

[oak cloud]

Counter counter point: I don’t ask questions here in this server because it’s too confusing to use and I have to think
I go elsewhere

[haughty sierra]

is clicking to another channel really that confusing

[oak cloud]

Yes.

[haughty sierra]

huh

[flat badger]

how is it confusing when there are channels for everything? and when you are in the wrong channel, you have people like me to remind you

[buoyant tendon]

i think people are confused to a part because it just changed from how it was to how it is now. this might either take a while

or the old way was just better

[craggy drift]

could you help me understand better by putting into words what exactly is the mentally taxing part and which questions you can't answer for yourself when you say it's "confusing"?

btw #1122473641473495170 let's continue there

[radiant acorn]

i feel like with this new change there isn't an advanced-rust channel that wont get a bunch of beginner questions (rust-discussions my beloved)
(art: currently someone is explaining what a mutex is in #rust-discussions-1)
rust-general-3 during the first few days was kinda active with the rust-discussions crowd, but its died down now

[buoyant tendon]

i think it is this

if you get a question and you can ask it in all 6 channels

is so much more ambigious in where to put it

than if you are kinda limited by the channel names in where to put it

i understand where haruda comes from

[craggy drift]

hot take, but questions should go into one of the questions channels

that already reduces the mental load by a factor of 2

[buoyant tendon]

yes agreed. but some other people already said that does not work in the current moment

[flat badger]

#981431291683700776 pro? nice try aranea

[buoyant tendon]

i also agree that its annoying when the beginner channel would be too flooded, but nobody stops anyone from having 2 beginner channels either

[craggy drift]

anyway, UX point taken: "rust-general" is a bad name because it cannibalizes "rust-questions"

[buoyant tendon]

name it Rust Quenerals

💀

[oak cloud]

The sharding of channels
Numbers aren’t intuitive
I don’t want to go to three different channels to gauge which is the least used and drop my question there
I want to categorize how »advanced« it feels on my own
Then put it in one of the channels that closest fits that description.

for example if I have a question like
“Why can’t I use i++ in rust” it is easy to categorize that as a really simple question and put it in the beginner area

Where as
“Why is my lifetime broken when I compile in release but not debug” is probably more advanced and can be put in one of the other channels

[flat badger]

so your solution would be to have one channel?

good luck categorising how advanced it feels when there is no definition of "what is an advanced question"

or rather one that's uniform across the serv er

[oak cloud]

A question is just wanting help formed into an easy to respond to format

[haughty sierra]

everyone has impostor syndrome and therefore everyone thinks their question is a beginner one

[craggy drift]

thanks, i acknowledge your problems and better understand the issue now

here's one thing i've noticed though:

you personally pick between rust-beginners and rust-questions based on the perceived difficulty of the question

what people expect is that the channel is chosen based on perceived skill level of the asking person

[flat badger]

i think most people who picked from the old list

[craggy drift]

and I think you'll agree that these two are related but different

[flat badger]

just found the channel which was occupied less

[buoyant tendon]

i think that might not be how many people treat it tho. at least i am not. but i know i am special 💀

[flat badger]

no i mean, we used to have several beginner questions in #rust-questions and even in #rust-discussions

[buoyant tendon]

yes ofc because some people dodge the "too active " beginner channel

[oak cloud]

I won’t deal with this anymore.
@craggy drift can you mute me in this channel please

[buoyant tendon]

because its horrible to read or follow your own questions answers if its too fast

[haughty sierra]

yeah, which is the point of adding more channels

and also contradicts with ur earlier reasoning lol

[buoyant tendon]

what do you mean?

i said it didnt happen to me

i didnt say it couldnt happen

[craggy drift]

you can leave the channel to stop receiving notifications

[amber canopy]

except every time someone pings you you get brought back in. 10/10 design

[oak cloud]

Thank you I could not have worded that politely.

[leaden venture]

I had to go into Browse-Channels and turn on the channels manually.
And that's only because I asked in meta... Maybe that's just me with my short attention span and refusal to read all the announcement posts from all the discord servers that I'm in.

[neon sinew]

did you use the /move commands? or ping mods to help move discussions to better places?

that's always a valid option!

the second option would be this:

the midjourney server has numbered channels up to like 100

and they only allow like 10k to be in a channel before they open the next one. this is forced load balancing. I didn't think I'd need to implement it here, but now it's looking like an option

(ideally I'd like it if people were more aware in those channels, or ping mods more)

(maybe both)

[oak cloud]

Note: that is not an option I would consider acceptable as it locks out any potential cross channel communication

[haughty sierra]

have you read this message #1122473641473495170 message

[neon sinew]

no

lemme do that

[deep surge]

Please no. The idea of three channels is fine and good, and I 100% approve (in fact, I'm getting the feeling I'm the only server regular that likes the new structure. I think it solves a number of problems, and the ones it introduces in exchange seem lesser), but this is utterly unacceptable.

First of all, it damages the ability to actually answer rust questions or participate in rust discussions. I would like to be able to check the channels to see if I can answer anything, and I can't very well do that if one or more of them is closed to me.

But even ignoring that massive dealbreaker issue, it's a bad solution for a non-issue. People will have three simultaneous conversations in #rust-discussions-1. Always did, always will. Reminder that #offtopic occasionally sustains five conversation at once. It's still good to have three chats, so if you feel like there are already enough/too many conversations in a given channel you can just pick a different one (three seems enough to contain our output of parallel conversations), but it should be a choice. It's even possible that people aren't spreading out their discussions because they're participating in more than one at a time.

I do see an issue with Luna's message that you were replying to (#1112772986701893632 message), but it's not about the 3 parallel discussions. It's about their subjects. AI feelings and philosophers torturing dogs are not #rust-discussions-1 topics. The former feels like #focused-chats, the latter is firmly ROUS territory. A stricter enforcement of channel topics and ?move commands is something I'd be ok with seeing.

Though, for completeness, I feel like I should point out ?move is unlikely to fix any of this. If it was, we'd already been using it, it's not new. The culture of this server, with the exception of Melo, appears to be A-Ok with misplaced discussions, and will only tend to move if someone shows up with the intent of using the channel for its actual purpose. Historically, this was a problem: How many people didn't show up because the channel was full of nonsense? These days, however, those people can pick one of the other two general channels, or the other Q&A channel, especially if they're dead, so it might just be fine as-is?

I don't assume discord is so kind as to give data on that?

[flat badger]

i think they meant that there is still a choice with the gigantic weird 100-channel idea, just that you can only switch between channels that are occupied, users can't wander into the ones that are not opened

[deep surge]

What would cause channels to become open?

[flat badger]

The culture of this server, with the exception of Melo, appears to be A-Ok with misplaced discussions,
I don't think this is true, and this is just a projected view of some people on the others

[deep surge]

Correction: with the exception of Melo and Dylan

I will 100% concede this might be an artifact of my viewpoint, but how many times has the ?move command been used overall? How many discussions that ought to have been moved happened?

How many of the times it was used did the ?move command actually cause a move rather than getting ignored?

[flat badger]

well tbf

we don't know if other people are fine or not with misplaced discussions because

• most people don't feel like voicing it or feel they have the right to stop a discussion that's derailed or offtopic

[deep surge]

My experience is that it is used extremely rarely, more than 50% of its uses come from Dylan, and occasionally when it's used it doesn't actually do anything.

I'm not arguing this is necessarily good, to clarify. But we can't pretend it's a solution if this is its track record

[flat badger]

tbf it would be a solution if more people use it

[deep surge]

Yes, but they don't, so we need a solution that more people actually use

Or alternatively, we need to solve the lack of uses of ?move, which in turn will make it work

[flat badger]

i mean people won't use it if people keep complaining that it's useless and doesn't help much, that would deter more people from using it

[deep surge]

To be fair, this is #1112772986701893632. How many people here aren't regulars who already knew about ?move and its lack of actual usage?

I wonder if it would work better if Melo made a #rplcs-announcements post telling everyone "hey, remember you can ?move people", or if it was anonymous a la /report

I feel at least part of the issue is that newcomers don't have a way to find out it exists

[placid haven]

I do get a bit frustrated when people use the rust chats for offtopic. Like, ok sometimes topics drift offtopic. But sometimes people just start with the offtopic. Maybe I should complain about it more but I'm not sure what I should do. ?move seems ineffective and going to the mods every time seems heavy handed.

[flat badger]

ye it's better to complain about it

[deep surge]

Hmm, maybe the problem is a compound: It's hard to find out it exists, and it might fail even if you do

We can fix the former with more publicity, and the latter..., idk, maybe ?move could cause a brief slowmode?

[flat badger]

that sounds horrible

[deep surge]

Can you slowmode individual people? Hitting "everyone in the last 10 messages" or "this specific list of people" would probably work well for causing them to move away while also not making the channel hard to use for "the innocent", so to speak

[flat badger]

people could abuse move to just slowmode the channel

no the slowmode settings are pretty trivial - you can just slowmode the channel and nothign more

[deep surge]

True, scratch that idea. Individual slowmode is... just as abusable, too

even if it existed

[flat badger]

turtle does have a slowmode option but it is wonky and doesn't work most of the time

[deep surge]

I suppose this needs human intervention, so... can we make failing to move a reportable offense? That would at least get the command to be effective

[flat badger]

maybe we could have a silent ping and channel with mods just like /report but that's a lot of noise and work for moderators

[flat badger]

in the past when i've done a move and they didn't oblige i've pinged the mods a few times

[deep surge]

As in, if you send a ?move and the channel is still busy with nonsense a minute or two later, you can call mods on that and you'll be in the right?

[deep surge]

Which brings us back to my theory the command is underpublicised. I feel this could work better if it was done more

[flat badger]

but then not sure if everyone would wan t to do that

yeh that's fair

[craggy drift]

I can't promise that we'll be able to respond in a timely manner, but I'd appreciate if you could /report those instances, if only so we get a better insight into how often this happens.

One problem I'm definitely feeling is that for a long time already, the server's been to big for us to be involved everywhere

I'm not too fond of enforcing moves with fear, tbh, if only because mods aren't around 24/7

[deep surge]

I can do that if the opportunity arises

[placid haven]

Ok so while I'm moaning... If someone asks "how do I do x on Windows" saying "use Linux" is especially unhelpful. Doubly so if it starts the inevitable Linux vs. Windows discussion yet again.

(I'd make an exception for if something is literally impossible on Windows)

[regal plover]

doubt that Windows is from programmer perspective much better than just Linux

[craggy drift]

yeah, please report this kind of behavior, that's not acceptable behavior here

[verbal bough]

After using the "new" channel layout for a decent time I have to say I like it

I was skeptical at first but it works, and there are fewer instances of two separate discussions happening at the same time

[fierce flame]

thanks for the valuable feedback!

[flat badger]

they work but i struggle to see an identity in them, they all kinda feel the same now, but i guess that's fine

[hoary peak]

i just gotta say, the new naming is waaay better than before

rust-general-x and rust-questions-and-answers-x better than whatever we had before

[fierce flame]

cheers!

[gusty timber]

i'd still advocate for getting rid of -and-answers

just because it goes past the cutoff on pretty much every platform

[fierce flame]

makes sense

[candid ferry]

the name is "cuter" (in a positive way) than just rust-questions but yeah, given that it's cut off it's better to remove it

no answers, only questions

[placid haven]

The first can be rust-questions and the second can be rust-answers.

[flat badger]

i don't see how it is "cuter", it just feels redundant because no sane person would have a channel where you can only have questions with no answers unless it is that "Interrogative" game in Whose Line Is It Anyway where you can only reply in a question form

[charred junco]

We use 1 for dumb shit, 2 for big brain shit, and 3 for burying bodies. (nobody goes in there so it's perfect)

[serene frost]

genius, proposed channel rename:
rust-dumb-shit
rust-big-brain
rust-backyard