Reorder channels

[zealous lava]

Melo doesn't have the Melo role 🤔

[neon sinew]

I don't need one

I'm literally melo himself

the Melo role is the role that has the Admin permissions enabled

in that sense, Pen is kind of a second Melo

hence the name

[craggy drift]

I understand and like the goal that you aim for, but could it be that what we actually want to filter by is not whether the asker considers themselves a beginner or not, but maybe a hidden category we still need to sus out?

That's true in theory, but didn't 5 shake out in practice because too many people hesitate to call the mods for non-urgent stuff and there are too many people coming in and out to solve the problem through education

Okay caught up

[bleak holly]

uh, I mean... idk, what is this hidden category? I acan't reject the possibility that there is some better organizational scheme

I'm just talking about what I've seen here, and what's worked well vs less well

when we discover this better scheme in the future we can always move to it

[serene frost]

not sure that 3 channels with the same name will get us any closer to sussing out that hypothetical category

[bleak holly]

yeah, I understand, I still think though that a) the situation wasn't so bad, and b) more could have easily been done.
especially since rust-questions only returned a couple months ago iirc

[craggy drift]

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Asking people to judge themselves as beginner or not runs into troubles we've already gone through. Maybe we can split by the kind of question? "I don't understand X" vs "i can't decide how to make this design work"?

[serene frost]

I still like the "rust help" idea I proposed above

[bleak holly]

well, there are also more category specific channels, e.g. "how to make this design work" could be software-design or something like that

[serene frost]

the distinction should be (loosely) "can you guide me with X" vs "can we discuss X"

the former is rust beginners, the latter is rust questions

or discussions

[craggy drift]

Trust me, we've all seen and committed it to memory. Doesn't mean we'll implement it immediately though

[serene frost]

never said you should, just bringing it up because you are discussing it again

[bleak holly]

I think that basically to keep the discussion from getting too theoretical (which it feels like it is a bit), and given the channel needs to run in the meanwhile, the best thing is to look at concrete options and choose the best between them, and as new ideas come up, it's possible to choose between those too.
In this case, the current concrete choice seems to be between beginner/question/discussion, and 1/2/3
and I think the former was much better

[craggy drift]

Hmmm, I like this one. Maybe, yeah

[bleak holly]

1/2/3 etc is something you use when your channels are already so fine grained that making them more so would risk too much confusion about which to use, yet there's still too much traffic

[craggy drift]

Well, no, this is not exactly the choice.there are also the q&a channels, which you seem to exclude here

[serene frost]

I would want a different kind and tone of answer to "hey I need help getting rid of these Arc mutexes I think I fucked up" and "anyone have a suggestion as to how I could integrate this spatial data structure into my ecs based architecture?"

[bleak holly]

well, I'm just looking at the most recent change

I didn't realize something else was added

[serene frost]

I hate repeating my points but attitude is more important than topic imho

and I think that much has already been demonstrated repeatedly in rust beginners

[bleak holly]

I see

q&a 1, q&a 2

[craggy drift]

What Melo did was rename rust-questions and rust-beinners to q&a 1 and 2, renamed rust-discussions to rust-general 1 and then added three new channels

[flat badger]

tbf those sort of questions arent that common to warrant a channel imo

[craggy drift]

As a reminder to myself, as much as to anyone else, the basis that I think we all agree on is that it'd be nice to have a channel that is clearly marked towards helpers as "please be patient and assume little knowledge"

And what'd be good to figure out is how to encode that

[fierce flame]

my biggest issue right now is that I forget which channel I wrote stuff in

[craggy drift]

Oof, yeah that's an issue I haven't considered so far. <@&1049890234642481182>themarten, this might be some useful feedback

Also, I just realized that this pings the Melo role and not the Melo marten, so Melo will never see this

[flat badger]

lol

[craggy drift]

Thanks, Discord, great programming

[serene frost]

lmao

[flat badger]

but they have highlights for melo

[craggy drift]

They really put a lot of thought into this user name reform

[fierce flame]

[hollow wedge]

Hey, how does everyone feel about the re-ordering and renaming of things ?

Yup, where is #rust-beginners ?

[zealous lava]

it was renamed to #rust-discussions-1

[bleak holly]

maybe something with the word novice, just a random thought.
And where the topic says something like "limited programming experience" (not just rust experience)

beginner is used a lot and for a broader range so mayb efolks don't consider as carefully

novice is a more targetted word I think

[sudden sorrel]

I am not sure why this happened but I just went and selected all the roles and I didn't get the QA learning section (I guess because I chose I am an advanced user) discord did keep them in a suggested section, but I had to go into the customize and manually add them in to make it permanent

[zealous lava]

I just said what has been done

[sudden sorrel]

Maybe we should have a like "I want to help new people" role

[regal plover]

i think #rust-help-1 and #rust-help-2 should probably be renamed to #rust-questions-1 and #rust-questions-2
then #rust-questions-1 could be added if you select beginner rustacean and both could be added if you select intermediate rustacean

[nocturne solstice]

You need the Browse Channels tab of that, not the roles tab.

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah I had to manually select them in here

Which took a second to find

[regal plover]

also maybe those selections could be reworded? it seems weird to gauge people's rust experience based on whether they know other languages or not

they probably should be opt out, encouraging people to answer questions is ideal

[neon sinew]

I just joined the Diablo IV server, and their onboarding experience is smooth as butter

[craggy drift]

#rust-help-1, #rust-help-2 and #981431291683700776

[regal plover]

if people don't want to answer questions, they don't really have to, so making them opt out and not opt in makes way more sense

how would making them opt out keep beginners from finding the channels?

do you mean they shouldn't be opt in?

as in people should get them by default

[neon sinew]

you can use the search feature and the CTRL+K+Enter shortcut to go back and forth between two channels

[candid ferry]

usernames are pretty broken yeah
There's also #focused-chats message

[fierce flame]

I'm almost always on mobile

[neon sinew]

mobile has that too AFAIK

[regal plover]

i feel like it also wasn't considered that people that are already in here are unlikely to check Channels & Roles so i'm pretty sure a lot of people who used to ask stuff in rust beginners just stopped asking things anywhere cause they just assumed it disappeared

[neon sinew]

they're supposed to be about Rust! :P

here, this will answer all your questions

id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide

everyone, go read this

[regal plover]

#rust-help-1 and #rust-help-2 are very slow so it seems pretty clear there's an issue with how things are organized currently

[neon sinew]

I updated the server guide

[sudden sorrel]

For the record none of the channels disappeared for me after the move

[neon sinew]

id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide id:guide

[torpid pier]

oi no spam

[neon sinew]

everyonoe go read that

and then come back here

[regal plover]

the issue is #rust-beginners is now #rust-discussions-1 , and those are completely different channels

[sudden sorrel]

Just the rolls removed them after I updated my roles to be the new ones

[neon sinew]

it takes around 20 minutes to read it all

so I'm ignoring you all for the next 20 minutes :P

id:guide

[regal plover]

the issue isn't that i don't know how the server works

the issue is that it's super unintuitive for a bunch of people

[neon sinew]

the issue is that there is no "#rust-beginners" channel now. things changed, and the changes are described in id:guide

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah I do like this layout

[regal plover]

yes, i'm aware, but i'm assuming you'd still want those people to ask questions in a channel

i'm saying a lot of the people that asked questions in rust beginners are just not asking anything anymore

[neon sinew]

if you'd read the id:guide , you'd know that this is true by now

[zealous lava]

I think it's less than 20 minutes

[neon sinew]

tell them to read id:guide

[regal plover]

how am i supposed to ask them to read the server guide if they don't talk

[sudden sorrel]

The question rate seems to be the same as usual, maybe even a little higher

[regal plover]

i thought the entire point of removing rust beginners and just having regular question channels was to make it more accessible for people, this makes it less so

[short fox]

is this link meant to do anything (on mobile)

[neon sinew]

well, you must know of people that stopped talking, right? that's why you're bringing up the complaint in the first place. so just ping them and say "hey, btw, read id:guide "

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah that link is totally broken on mobile

[fierce flame]

broken on mobile :(

[sudden sorrel]

You have to manually go to it

[neon sinew]

it helps if they read the id:guide , so recommend people to read teh id:guide as much as possible

[regal plover]

or the server could just have a better interface and people wouldn't have to do that

[devout thicket]

this is awful UX

nobody wants to read a server guide and people won't do it

[sudden sorrel]

I love that this conversation happens every time melo tries changing anything

[neon sinew]

you don't, but it helps. I try to make it so all channels and categories are self sufficient. but unfortunately, some things can't be explained with just that. that's why I have id:guide

[devout thicket]

you should design things such that they don't need a guide

things didn't need a guide before lol

[neon sinew]

they still don't

but all of the complaints you're talking about here are addressed in id:guide

[regal plover]

i mean i thought the layout was fine before, like, i thought it was fairly intuitive

[devout thicket]

why are so many people asking questions answered by the guide then

lol

[sudden sorrel]

Where you here for the fire storm when melo change it to that layout?

[neon sinew]

because they're not reading it, obviously

[regal plover]

i was yeah

[devout thicket]

because you shouldn't have to read a guide to understand a discord server

[neon sinew]

but are you understanding it?

[sudden sorrel]

Fun times

[neon sinew]

you still don't

the channels are self sufficient here

are they not?

[devout thicket]

which one is the beginners channel again?

[fierce flame]

I like the guide, it definitely helps with new people finding resources

[regal plover]

they're not that's the entire point

[neon sinew]

I dunno, but if I have a question, maybe I'll go to #rust-help-1

[devout thicket]

they were intuitive before and now they're not

[neon sinew]

they're intuitive in another way

try to understand this

[devout thicket]

try to understand this lmfao

[craggy drift]

they're pretty intuitive

[neon sinew]

ok, I have an idea. leave the server and come back, and go through the onboarding flow again

[sudden sorrel]

The beginner chat was most of the time not beginner questions

[neon sinew]

and tell me how it feels like

[craggy drift]

yeah, that one you'll have to bring up with pisscorp

[neon sinew]

I improved the onboarding

[devout thicket]

i know how the design works melo i'm saying that this is strictly worse than it was before

[zealous lava]

I have a feeling that if we just give it a bit of time most people will get used to it

I don't see the server from the point of view of someone joining though

[devout thicket]

the qna stuff is easier to miss and 1/2/3 is much less clear than beginners/questions/discussions

[neon sinew]

then you're not fully understanding the design, I believe

[regal plover]

the onboarding doesn't matter for people who were already in here which is like most people

[devout thicket]

guess i'm just holding it wrong

[neon sinew]

that's why I say: go through the onboarding flow again

[zealous lava]

will try

[neon sinew]

maybe it'll make you understand

[sudden sorrel]

That's ... not what the 1 2 3 is

[neon sinew]

which is why I'm telling people to go read the id:guide ffs

[devout thicket]

but that's what its being used as in practice even still?

[sudden sorrel]

The extra channels are for overflow

[neon sinew]

I dunno. generalizing like that is dangerous. are you ready to represent "most people"?

[craggy drift]

@neon sinew maybe one thing that bugs me: it's weird that the forum is called "rust-help-xxxxxx" but the sibling channels are "questions-and-answers", I would expect those names to be more similar

[neon sinew]

they ask questions and they talk about rust

I think the current channels reflect that quite well

[devout thicket]

when you make something UX related you don't get to say that the users are wrong lol

most people will not read the server guide

[sudden sorrel]

I also like the new channels and layout

[craggy drift]

what do people actually do, in your mind, and why do you think that that's the case?

[neon sinew]

if you believe in that, then that's what you believe in, I guess. just don't spread that as a fact

because you might be wrong

[regal plover]

you're asking for feedback on ux, asking us to read the guide, and then saying the guide is not required to understand the server

[sudden sorrel]

Having multiple overflow channels is awesome

[neon sinew]

I will continue looking at the server insights to see how people actually behave

[sudden sorrel]

Also I never liked the beginners vs general vs discussion

[regal plover]

if you're not going to take feedback then just close this forum thread

[sudden sorrel]

QA vs general is much better

[neon sinew]

it's not, but since you seem to be having difficulties understanding the new channels and the new purposes, the id:guide is a helful resource that can help clear up confusion if needed

[craggy drift]

you're saying a lot about what people don't do. what do they do and why do you think so?

[neon sinew]

If you link me id:guide , I will read it. Please don't assume I don't read documentation. It's rude af to me

And stop generalizing

[craggy drift]

we've been taking plenty of feedback and it feels unfair to make it sound like we don't

[sudden sorrel]

I would like to see a fix for my actual issue

[neon sinew]

what is your actual issue?

[sudden sorrel]

Assuming we can fix it

[craggy drift]

you're still missing the second part 😉

[devout thicket]

this is literally one of the most known things in ui/ux

users don't want to read documentation and will do as little of it as possible

[neon sinew]

it's not a truth tho

[sudden sorrel]

When I went and selected that I am an advanced user (I think this is what caused it) I lost the QA channels and had to go manually add them back in

[neon sinew]

it's your opinion

[devout thicket]

there is literally an entire fucking classic book on ui/ux called don't make me think

[neon sinew]

that's an opinion

and it's not true in this server

because of the onboarding flow

which makes it required for people to read certain things before they join this server

and even if they skim it, the channels are self sufficient

[devout thicket]

you can click through it and it is literally known that people don't read things like this

[neon sinew]

and if they want to clear things up, they can always go back to id:guide later if recommended

[devout thicket]

this is an entire field of study

[craggy drift]

tbf, they are right in that a lot of times, users tend to be "on rails" and attempt to avoid reading warnings, docs and rules. I think this is not up to debate

it takes effort to make users stop and use their brain

[neon sinew]

I know. I'm saying that I'm already taking all that into consideration

[sudden sorrel]

My thing got drowned out again

[neon sinew]

and the server is already designed with all of that in mind

[neon sinew]

make a new post please

[sudden sorrel]

Yes sir 🫡

[neon sinew]

I don't understand why you're being so aggressive

that's why I'm being defensive

you're not understanding my efforts

because you're still not understanding my efforts

imagine I am a new user to this server

never have been here before

cool. I am not you

I see a page of documentation, I read it.

[devout thicket]

this is a known fact of ux

[neon sinew]

now what?

[devout thicket]

it is one of the most studied things in HCI

ever

[neon sinew]

That's why I have clearly named channels. And the onboarding experience makes sure that people know that those channels exist.

[bleak holly]

i kind of just feel like - some significant fraction of people (percentage - tbd) will not rush to read documentation.
I also feel like a discord server shouldn't be super complicated; it should be easy to skim the channel names and have a fair sense where to post, at least, 99% of things you'd want to bring up.
So, a server design where you don't need to read docs is better than one where you have to.

[neon sinew]

I am already doing that. please understand

[devout thicket]

they aren't clearly named though! they were clearly named before and now they're not

people are clearly confused by the new names

where do rust beginners go now

[neon sinew]

to the places that they need to go

if they need to ask a question, they go to #rust-help-1

if they need a code review, they go to #981431291683700776

if they need to talk about their rust experience, they go to #rust-discussions-1

and all of that is described in id:guide

[devout thicket]

the majority of people will never read the guide dude

[zealous lava]

Do you think that in the current state of the server, it would be hard for a beginner to guess where to post their question?

[bleak holly]

harder than before, for sure

[sudden sorrel]

#1120416206504079502

[neon sinew]

my cortisol levels are extremely high right now

thank you everyone

slowmode time

[zealous lava]

@neon sinew
Couldn't send this before because leaving & rejoining muted me, this is on the last page of onboarding

[neon sinew]

THANK YOU! I WILL FIX THIS

THIS IS ALL I WANTED

FEEDBACK

[devout thicket]

?? you've got feedback you just don't like it

[bleak holly]

idk, I mean honestly I'm just looking at the top bar, it's hard to get around the fact that we're currently sitting at 15 thumbs down, and one checkmark (from another mod)
if it was 50-50 or 60-40 I think it'd be easier to make the case, but as it stands it's nearly unanimous

[neon sinew]

is that a threat???? like, are you going out of your way to make sure that people don't read it?????

EDIT: the message was edited to be less threatening

[dusky drum]

ngl on most servers i am active on, "questions and answers" is kind of a meta channel where users ask questions to devs/owners/ama-to-public-representative thingy

[craggy drift]

thanks, that's valuable feedback

[neon sinew]

I take a lot of issue with you saying this. This is bad. And I want to make sure you understand this. I am writing a full explanation now.

If you say that, you just end up perpetuating people not reading guides and documentation. And that is bad.

It's ok if YOU YOURSELF don't like reading it.

But never, EVER, assume that other people don't.

Here's a suggestion

"I personally don't read it, but this might be helpful for you: id:guide "

[fierce flame]

eh i see where they're coming from

[neon sinew]

Leave it to the person to make their decisiont to read a stupid guide or not

[craggy drift]

to maybe change up the conversation a little and stop going in circles: it's certainly true that people ignore walls of text. I've had a look at the server guide. Apart from the rules, it isn't a wall of text

[neon sinew]

you don't need to know of their choice

do you understand now?

@manic rose do you have any issues with what I said? if so, I'll have to ban you from the server

[fierce flame]

what

[neon sinew]

it's a warning

[fierce flame]

melo it feels like you're getting a bit agitated about this, I'd suggest taking a little break

[neon sinew]

because he keeps replying to my messages with No, and it's something that I consider an important value of this server

we shouldn't assume things from other people

[fierce flame]

well I can understand reacting when you put on 10 min slowmode

[neon sinew]

and if he says that he wants to continue to assume that "people won't read documentation", then I don't want him in my server :c

yes

[fierce flame]

that's not even a hot take really

[neon sinew]

it's not

[fierce flame]

people, in general, are really bad at reading docs unfortunately

[neon sinew]

it's how you approach it though

my suggestion is: let's all just say "I personally don't like it, but this might help you id:guide "

that's all I ask

[fierce flame]

that's fine, it didn't really come off that way before however

[regal plover]

june isn't saying he doesn't think most people shouldn't read documentation, and i certainly don't think he's recommending people to not read the server guide, he's saying most people don't

wasn't this entire redesign made under the assumption people would act a certain way anyways? it's impossible to design ux without trying to assume your users will act in a certain way

[fierce flame]

I think there's been a bunch of miscommunication, which is pretty unavoidable, especially when people are getting annoyed

[crystal drum]

ok i really dont think you understand the average joiner lmao

[neon sinew]

@manic rose I'll lift slowmode so that you can explain why you don't want to follow my suggestion. I want to give you an opportunity to explain yourself

[neon sinew]

I do. and I feel compelled to say "more than you do", but that would be rude

[craggy drift]

I've asked June repeatedly what they think the average joiner is like and why they think so and after three attempts still didn't get a complete response

[neon sinew]

he's saying that, and it might be true, but the choice should always be there for the people that DO read it. and I think the rest of the server has a pretty good enough flow for now that people won't be confused about where to go after they join

[craggy drift]

the same offer is open to you as well btw

and I'm not meaning this in a passive-aggressive way of "do it better", I just want to steer the conversation towards a more productive direction

[sudden sorrel]

For my one message until slow down, I would like to say I think we have improved we made it like a few hours before it exploding after a reordering. Unlike last time

[neon sinew]

You're not understanding me at all, are you?

[fierce flame]

maybe you're not making yourself very understandable?

[neon sinew]

I took UX-UI courses

[fierce flame]

I don't really follow much either

[neon sinew]

yes. this is the issue

[craggy drift]

slowmode's reduced to 10 seconds. you can talk, but I ask you to think before doing so

[slender root]

fwiw RTFM is practically my motto and even I was like "WTF kind of server needs paragraphs of explanation for how the channels work what is this?" when things were initially changed.

[neon sinew]

the id:guide is a helpful tool for people that were already in the server. new joiners shouldn't have any of the issues that people are complaining about here

[devout thicket]

the majority of people have not and never will read documentation.

this is one of the most known things in UI/UX and it is an entire field devoted to asking questions like this.
the fact that you think the average user reads documentation is indicative of a complete lack of knowledge on your part about what constitutes good UX.

when users don't understand a system, you don't get to disagree with them; that's one of the most important things you learn as a designer!

This is an entire field of study, and these things have been known for years!

[slender root]

You shouldn't need docs because it should be self explanatory. It's not a system call.

[neon sinew]

prove it

sorry

but I need to ask you to prove it if you're so adamant

[dusky drum]

mobile user can't click the link to it, people generally don't like long onboarding experiences (see: any clickrate conversion study along the lines of "we made it possible to buy before creating an account and our sales went up xxx%, or any UX training, or even the simple fact that there are still people coming in this server thinking it is about Rust the game from time to time, the people that went to dive in head fisrt in rust projects but will reject even the thought of reading The Book, etc)
also, even if i actually went through the onboarding quizz earlier today i had to dive back into channels and roles to even find back some of the "clubs" i like to lurk in, and it took me quite some time to even notice some of them were gone

sorry for the archaic message but i wrote it during the 10m slowmode so i kinda lost myself in between different parts of it

[neon sinew]

I believe in you

now

do you not believe that I know that?

[craggy drift]

I think one cause of confusion is that the server guide is not paragraphs of explanation. it's a super well structured list and if you have a concrete reason to come here (e.g. asking a question), you find what you need within like 10 words

[neon sinew]

do you not see that the current server design takes that into consideration?

[neon sinew]

well, I didn't advertise the clubs in the onboarding for a reason, hehe

[craggy drift]

it's both, actually. Things should be self-explanatory, but docs are also extremely important. I've had to work in a place where the most docs that you get are the tab-completion

[neon sinew]

mobile users can't click the links? that's an issue. I need to bring that up to discord, thank you for the feedback

[devout thicket]

you can read literally any book on ui/ux and this is something you will learn for certain. it is extremely well known throughout the field and you would be extremely hard pressed to find something modern that relies on documentation for initial use (that isn't an extremely specific machine)

things should be self-explanatory, this system is less intuitive to existing users, people are confused, therefore it is worse

[neon sinew]

and I think my onboarding experience is pretty short if people choose to just skip reading everything

[slender root]

Having a beginners, a general qa, and a general discussion for intermediate/advanced non-qa discussion was pretty self explanatory

I don't really understand what the problem with that was

[craggy drift]

you'd think so, and we still got a lot of people who didn't feel comfortable talking outside of the beginners channel even though there was no reason not to

[neon sinew]

I think people are confused because things changed from what they were before. if they reset their expectations and go into the server with a fresh mindset, it might help. and for that, id:guide is how I recommend getting into that new mindset and expectations

new users won't have those issues

because they don't know how things were before

:D

[craggy drift]

the problem with the beginners/questions/discussion split is that it looks self-explanatory, but isn't if you haven't spent half a year in here

[devout thicket]

this isn't how UX works!!! you can't just get 28,000 people to completely forget everything they know and start again

[neon sinew]

well, that's the situation I'm in right now lmao

[devout thicket]

yes!

[neon sinew]

so how do I get 28k people to adopt a new way of using the server?

[devout thicket]

why do you need a new way?

[neon sinew]

besides writing a helpful guide in id:guide detailing how it goes?

[neon sinew]

because the old one had issues

and this is an attempt to fix them

[craggy drift]

you don't, you become a C++ server and never break back-compat ever again

[shadow lily]

@neon sinew You are increasingly emotional and not processing anything anyone's saying and deflecting which is frankly escalating this situation.

[fierce flame]

it seems to have calmed down

[neon sinew]

I'm actually a bit more calm now c:

[fierce flame]

I'm monitoring this pretty intently to avoid any angy people

[regal plover]

my slowmode just finished

i think at the very least #rust-help-1 and 2 should maybe be renamed to #rust-questions-1 and 2? it's a little bit more specific

[neon sinew]

thank you ♥️

[neon sinew]

yes, I was getting to that

I commited one oversight

[devout thicket]

either way this is an entire field of study on how to get people to adopt things. name things intuitively and don't remove/unecessarily meld things people were using.

there was very little wrong with beginners/questions/discussion; losing the distinction between those things is worse for all parties involved, and i think the people too afraid to leave rust-beginners is a significant minority

[neon sinew]

I will fix it right now

[neon sinew]

there were a few things wrong with that, actually!

[crystal drum]

(this is a pdf of a scientific study)

[neon sinew]

I agree completely with this!

thank you for providing source

[devout thicket]

you read it that fast?

[neon sinew]

yes

jk I didn't

but I know what it says

[sudden sorrel]

I can speak

[devout thicket]

QED

[slender root]

what are the exact issues with how it was that we're trying to address? I think if existing users understood what the problems were they'd have a better idea of what to do about them in a way that isn't confusing

[regal plover]

i see that that's an issue, but i think it's also an issue that people might not be willing to ask really basic questions because they think they're dumb questions, and having a channel named #rust-beginners or something like that makes people more comfortable with asking stuff like that

that was meant to be a reply

[neon sinew]

to understand that better, you can read this post from the beginning. we go over those issues a lot in the history of this post

[sudden sorrel]

I disagree with the beginners, general, discussions split

[regal plover]

to this message (oops)

[neon sinew]

and for that I raise you this: why can't they just ask in #rust-help-1 ? doesn't it look inviting enough?

[devout thicket]

i'm sure there are better ways to do it, but this isn't one of them. the crux of what i'm getting at is a "beginners" channel is extremely helpful for all parties

[craggy drift]

it's not particularly useful to repeat "there were no/little problems with the word 'beginners'" after several problems have been pointed out already. it'd be more productive to either explain how these problems can be mitigated in a different way or how they're not actually problems

[crystal drum]

also keep in mind that people joining the server are often actively working on something or trying to solve a problem, shifting that focus away from trying to get a question answered, to figuring out how the server works, just makes people skip everything

or give up and go somewhere else

[devout thicket]

generally when you use quotation marks you quote what someone actually said

[craggy drift]

i can get behind that. is there maybe a way to solve both problems at once?

[regal plover]

same reason they wouldn't want to talk outside of #rust-beginners before, probably impostor syndrome and fear of looking like they're not a real programmer or somethign like that

[neon sinew]

I don't have to prove this. I designed the server in a way that new joiners have a nice experience and know exactly where they need to go, regardless if they're a beginner or not, and regardless if they read any of my documentation.

[sudden sorrel]

The beginner channel was most of the time not beginner questions

Or beginner people

[regal plover]

i disagree with that, it definitely was

[sudden sorrel]

Funny enough most ended up in discussion

[neon sinew]

I edited the message

[devout thicket]

disagree too, rust-beginners was put back on a beginner track again and again, and the questions were generally of a lower understanding

[neon sinew]

Yes. This is an axiom. If there are any issues with Discord features not working as intended, I should be notified ASAP so that I can raise it as a partner ticket to get it fixed immediately.

[craggy drift]

fixed, thanks

[regal plover]

i'm not sure if it's possible but i think it's preferable to have those people at least talk in #rust-beginners if they're not going to be talking anywhere else either way, really

[crystal drum]

also i dont think its a coincidence that server retention is down by 15% today compared to yesterday

[sudden sorrel]

I am not talking about our derailment of the channel

[fierce flame]

Best to wait a few days with server retention stats ime, they can be unreliable very early on

[crystal drum]

yeah absolutely

[craggy drift]

I think it is, the data is pretty noisy due to the situation over on reddit

[neon sinew]

exactly. was. we have a new flow now! it changed so that we could attempt to fix some issues we found in the previous one

the new flow is detailed in id:guide for anyone struggling to upgrade from the previous flow

you'd be surprised. have you tried reporting a discord issue to me directly?

[regal plover]

i think if people talked in a channel like #rust-beginners, if they ask non-beginner questions, they could be directed to another rust help channel, that would probably help fix both of the issues

but that requires trying to get users to do that and i'm not sure how to, maybe adding that in the channel description

[sudden sorrel]

Melo is a wiz with partner tickets

[craggy drift]

you'd think it'd be easy to redirect these people. in practice we've found that this doesn't happen

[fierce flame]

ye redirecting is almost impossible

[devout thicket]

but this solution just throws everything out and makes all channels equally inaccessible

[neon sinew]

you misunderstand. the guide is an optional helpful resource. new users shouldn't need it. and old users can use it to HELP them get used to how the server works NOW

[craggy drift]

and because there are constantly new people on this server, you can't just say "please redirect intermediate and advanced topics to other channels" because you'll never stop having to say that

[fierce flame]

it works if the conversation is just a single message, but if it starts you can't really move it without killing the momentum

[regal plover]

i think it works out if you ping them in the other channel while just continuing the discussion, but i still appreciate you can't exactly easily get users to do that

[neon sinew]

I don't think that's true. is it currently doing that? it's not supposed to

[sudden sorrel]

Basically every time we have tried that they just leave because I guess it feels like we are just tossing them to the void

[regal plover]

yeah that's not ideal i suppose

[fierce flame]

HOWEVER, I do want to experiment with making ?move replay the last few messages from tagged users with webhooks in the moved-to channel

[devout thicket]

which of rust-1 rust-2 rust-3 is the more accessible one?
which of qna-1 and qna-2 is the more accessible one?

[fierce flame]

that's a topic for another day though

[craggy drift]

welcome to the eternal september 🍂

[neon sinew]

because people are struggling to understand this new server organization, and reading the id:guide might help them?

[zealous lava]

is there a way to view this on a by day basis?

[neon sinew]

you know

[sudden sorrel]

1 , if 1 is active use 2, if both are active use 3

[neon sinew]

it's a useful helpful resource

[devout thicket]

when i say accessible here i'm referring to beginners/people with less knowledge and less well-formed questions

[neon sinew]

pick and choose!

you choose

the choice is up to the person

[regal plover]

how was it done though? i think just linking to a different channel (or tbh using ?move is even worse) is pretty likely to result in that but continuing in a different channel and pinging them in there probably wouldn't

[neon sinew]

... yes

[sudden sorrel]

Doesn't matter, the channels aren't about apparent beginner-ness

[neon sinew]

this is why I am aggravated

you're not understanding

lol

[devout thicket]

so what you mean is that all of these are equally accessible, and therefore equally inaccessible

[sudden sorrel]

We have done both, never work well

[regal plover]

ah, well that sucks

[neon sinew]

there's an algorithm in id:guide that helps people choose if they're undecided

[devout thicket]

but it would be much more convenient and intuitive if it was just right there in the channel name, no?

there is no distinction between the channels and that's the problem i'm getting at

[neon sinew]

nah. I think that if you just read the id:guide and sit down for 10 minutes to understand the changes, you'll be happier. otherwise, you can leave the server for 10 minutes and try joining as a new user. your choice

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah it's why beginner general and discussions were basically just 1 2 3 overflow channels. People went to the not active one

[neon sinew]

which one do you want?

[craggy drift]

you've proven that the accessibility levels are the same, but you still need to show that they're low

[devout thicket]

go look at the level of discussions in all three rust channels

[regal plover]

well it's "ask questions in #rust-help-1 and if that's a bit full you can use the other one"

[crystal drum]

why isnt it up to you to prove the opposite?

you're the one making the change

[neon sinew]

@manic rose please answer my question

[crystal drum]

you cant make a change then ask people to prove its shit

[neon sinew]

it's important

[regal plover]

it's not to do with whether the question is basic or not really

[neon sinew]

nah. I think that if you just read the ⁠Server Guide and sit down for 10 minutes to understand the changes, you'll be happier. otherwise, you can leave the server for 10 minutes and try joining as a new user. your choice
which one do you want?

[sudden sorrel]

Funny enough 2 is the most dead (just like it was before)

[torpid pier]

(that is quite passive aggressive)

[craggy drift]

-mute @crystal drum hostile comments in the middle of a tense conversation

[devout thicket]

yea i get the load-balancing part, i'm saying that there is no special place for beginners anymore, all channels are of the same level of expertise, which muddies everything and means beginners don't have a place to ask sillier, less well-formed questions

seeing a question in a beginners channel requires a different response to a question in - say - #dark-arts

[deep pewter]

brokenpen#0 muted borgerking#0 for 30 minutes. Reason: hostile comments in the middle of a tense conversation

[devout thicket]

rip

[zealous lava]

for general information, if you do this, you'll have to manually rejoin the threads you were in, etc.

just a warning, my goal isn't to discourage people from doing it

[craggy drift]

I've had a look, they seem pretty active. what am i supposed to notice?

[torpid pier]

oh it switched from 0000 to just 0?

[neon sinew]

I am requiring you to answer it, otherwise I will make the choice myself

[devout thicket]

jesus christ dude

[neon sinew]

I am moderating you

[regal plover]

fwiw i think it's probably a good idea to actually read the server guide since it's pretty relevant to the conversation

[craggy drift]

you can read it above, it's only three messages

[regal plover]

(if you haven't yet)

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah melo for the record I read the guide and I like it

[neon sinew]

I wil choose for you then

[fierce flame]

[devout thicket]

this is an embarassingly childish response to criticism of a channel rename

[deep pewter]

Banned eyesonjune#0 for 1 day

[sudden sorrel]

Minus the whole guide link is totally broken on mobile thing 😅

[regal plover]

i'm not sure what june did that warranted him being kicked

[heavy wharf]

This was an abuse of power IMO.

[regal plover]

let alone banned for a day, jesus

[fierce flame]

we should discuss that

[neon sinew]

I gave him plenty of time to make the choice :c

[fierce flame]

in mod chat

[regal plover]

you shouldn't ban people because you think they're wrong in an argument with you

[fierce flame]

really not a fan

[bleak holly]

Or talk at people for paragraphs on end while they're on 10 min slow mode

[torpid pier]

and they did not want to as they (rightfully) felt a response was not required to a fairly rhetorical question

[bleak holly]

That's not what slow mode is fir

[neon sinew]

It's a temp ban. I'm allowing him to come back and continue discussing later if he so wishes to.

[regal plover]

i can see june was being kind of unreasonable but i don't see why that would be worth a 1 day ban

[neon sinew]

I just need him to read the server guide and think about it a bit.

And I gave him the choice

Several times

He was warned

[regal plover]

what specifically did he do that warranted him being banned?

[fierce flame]

that's not a choice though

[shadow lily]

Why were their messages deleted?

[neon sinew]

... they were????

fuck

they were not supposed to

[devout thicket]

i guess we'll never know what they said that was ban worthy

[regal plover]

that's an automatic thing that happens when people are banned i believe

[craggy drift]

I'm not saying that I agree with Melo's decision, but I feel the need to clarify that this was not about disagreement but about uncooperativeness

[neon sinew]

here

https://haste.logger.bot/ebebd656-feab-4209-a8bb-354e48d47b62.txt

this is their last 13 messages

sorry for that, that was a mistake. the messages shouldn't have been deleted

[regal plover]

does the bot only log periodically? those are kind of old

[fierce flame]

ye

[neon sinew]

it has a cache

[fierce flame]

it's not their last messages

[neon sinew]

and invalidating caches is hard

[bleak holly]

Which of those messages was ban worthy...

[zealous lava]

I personally am in disagreement with [temp]banning users who can't agree with you, but 1) I don't want to start another argument and 2) I have literally no authority

[neon sinew]

none of them. it was his attitude

[regal plover]

i mean melo just said "you should read the user guide" and not "please calm down" or anything like that

[neon sinew]

maybe I can soften it to a temp mute if y'all are ok with it

my compromise is that he needs to read the server guide and be muted for a bit so that he can think about it

[sudden sorrel]

Mute would have been the better choice if you were going to limit June

Ban was over the top

[fierce flame]

I feel bad about forcing people to read stuff that aren't rules

[neon sinew]

the ban does help with one thing tho

it forces him to go through my new onboarding flow :D

[regal plover]

this would usually be a 30 minute mute or so i'd imagine, not a 1 day ban

[fierce flame]

ye

[bleak holly]

😕

[neon sinew]

that's why I went with the ban in the first place

[craggy drift]

i don't think the wording would've made too much of a difference in this concrete context

[neon sinew]

well, temp ban

[devout thicket]

i'm genuinely kind of in awe that criticism such as "discord servers shouldn't need a guide" and "this is harmful to the quality of discussion on the server"
has resulted in people getting banned, threatened with bans, silencing people for 10 minutes while chastising them and generally acting like a child.

it's completely embarassing and pretty much ruins the server a server about discussing rust.

[neon sinew]

I wanted him to be able to come back

[regal plover]

well i don't think you should ban people to make a point in a discussion either

[devout thicket]

feel free to put me in the ban club too

[bleak holly]

Sorry but the moderation here has been really mishandled

[fierce flame]

ye I believe you owe him an apology for banning him for a whole day

[neon sinew]

it's because it's not constructive. ok, it shouldn't need a guide. now what? are the channels not descriptive enough for their functions so that they can be understood by NEW JOINERS without reading the server guide?

[craggy drift]

the problem is not the criticism, the problem is the tone of it and the refusal to interact in any other way than to demand a complete rollback

[neon sinew]

the bolded part is important

[bleak holly]

Starting with the way slow mode was used and ending with that ban

[regal plover]

those aren't just different wording, they're two different statements
"please calm down, maybe take a break, or you will be muted" would have been reasonable, not "read the server guide"

[neon sinew]

I needed the slowmode because I was getting emotional

[bleak holly]

Then step away

You kept talking at people while slow mode was on

That's not the point of it

[devout thicket]

new joiners aren't the majority of your userbase and the opinions you're getting will not be from new joiners

if you make things worse for all existing users then -- i'm sorry -- the change is worse, unless you expect to 2x your user count very suddenly

[sudden sorrel]

Oh not sure if this is a real issue or just my copy of the app but when you changed the slow mode times earlier it didn't effect my app at all

[bleak holly]

If you're getting emotional you're the one who needs to step back. That's what I would tell any user and it's not different here

[sudden sorrel]

And June was also stuck at 10 minutes

[devout thicket]

it is an extremely well known and studied thing in ui/ux that guides never get read and people are telling you that the channels aren't descriptive or intuitive enough

[fierce flame]

that was a discord issue

since some others could talk more often

[regal plover]

timers started in slowmode don't go away if you take away the slowmode until they expire, it's just bad discord design

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah not sure if it should be a ticket type issue though

[regal plover]

although like, it might have made sense to take a break for 10 minutes so people could catch up, that's kind of in the past and i don't expect anyone to think of that in the moment

[craggy drift]

Melo has warned him (#1112772986701893632 message) and replied in a calm fashion for almost an hour at this point, I think june got plenty of chances, even though the ban was too much

[devout thicket]

melo literally muted everyone for 10 mins while chastising people, how is that calm

[sudden sorrel]

The thing was it kept the same time after I made a message

[regal plover]

i don't think that's what pen was talking about

[craggy drift]

we already agree on that, repeating it won't do us any good

[sudden sorrel]

Though I will say this conversation has been much calmer than the trademark discussion was

[regal plover]

yeah, but i don't think it was sufficiently communicated that the issue was that june was being aggressive, not that he just didn't read the server guide

even in the message you linked it's specifically mentioned that june should just read the server guide

[fierce flame]

now that's a low bar

[craggy drift]

it was pretty clear to me while i was reading along

[fierce flame]

I didn't really catch that either

[devout thicket]

i don't think june was being any more aggressive than the people they were responding to

[neon sinew]

it's hard to step away when people keep saying I don't understand UX. I do. it's just that I think they haven't taken the time to understand the reasoning behind all of the changes I made. Hence, I'm redirecting them to the helpful id:guide that I made to help people. It explains the new way of how I'd like people to think about the server. Once they understand the reasons behind the changes, I think that they'll be more ok with it. But instead, they just keep arguing with me here saying that I "don't understand". I do. I do. I will repeat it as many times as you need. The longer the time it takes for y'all to understand that I KNOW UX AND UI DESIGN, the better it is. I don't care how many times I'll have to repeat that I know UX/UI. Please try to understand the reasoning behind my changes by reading the id:guide . If you'd like to see how a new user experience is in the server, feel free to leave and rejoin. If you do that, please provide feedback about the experience. I worked very hard on making a seamless onboarding experience for new joiners because I know about UX/UI design and I think that the current onboarding experience follows a lot of the nice practices of UX/UI design. Older users may have trouble with adapting, but that's why I wrote the helpful id:guide for. It's a helpful optional resource that people can use to understand things about the server better.

[craggy drift]

i was hoping to link the "I am moderating you" message, which is about as clear a warning as it gets, not sure if discord managed to do that

[neon sinew]

I'll now step away

pen, do whatever you want with the person I banned

feel free to unban them or whatever you want

[craggy drift]

Fiona's message made me do a quick ctrl-f of Melo's messages and just scrolling through it, they were very patient for a long time

[regal plover]

well i mean "I am moderating you" is clear that a moderator action is being taken, it's just the reason why the action was happening that isn't (i mean quicknir and zachs also seemed to not see it from that point of view so i don't think it's just me that thinks it wasn't super clear)

[sudden sorrel]

Thanks Melo, have a nice break

[craggy drift]

well, several people have already voiced agreement that it wasn't very clear, so I kind of don't have a leg to stand on :y

[devout thicket]

making the experience worse for all existing users at the expense of hypothetical new joiners is awful UX, that is what people are saying

if you know ux and ui you know that the majority of people don't ever read documentation or guidebooks -- things should just be intuitive.
you spent 30 minutes arguing that the majority of users read documentation which leads everyone here to believe you don't know a thing about UI/UX because that is so fundamentally basic it's insane to overlook

anyway to circle back on the actual issue. make one of the channels for beginners and therefore more accessible to newbie questions. that's all people want. this change is worse and measurably so by the amount of people giving you shit for it

[sudden sorrel]

I mean it's really been like 3-5 people so far

[regal plover]

i don't know i think pen made a pretty good point on why that isn't being done

to be fair

i do think it's preferable to have some people ask in #rust-beginners than not ask at all, but then again it's hard to know what percentage of people are just not going to ask as a result of a channel like that not existing so it's hard to make a judgement on it

[devout thicket]

i think it helps, but the more important thing is to know context around a question

like i said earlier, the same question in #dark-arts should get a very different response than in a hypothetical beginners channel

(one is much more likely to be an xy)

[sudden sorrel]

The fundamental flaw I see with having a beginners channel is most beginner rust programmers won't use it. I personally have seen time and time again that programmers with background in other languages don't usually label themselves as a "beginner" because they really aren't. And we already advocate for Rust not being a first language

[craggy drift]

fwiw, i think there are many more context clues than just which channel a question gets asked in. you can deduce a lot about the user's background from how the question is phrased and, y'know, them putting the background in their message

btw, it's 9pm and i'd like to have some dinner

[devout thicket]

i don't disagree that there are other context clues, but asking in a beginners question is a huge one in my experience. i shouldn't have to deduce things that were already available

[craggy drift]

y'all chill? y'all think I can do that?

[fierce flame]

yes dad

[craggy drift]

thanks, son ⚽

[shadow lily]

This is just gaslighting. Precisely measuring the number of people that have the time and energy to engage their concern is downplaying the amount of people that actually share the sentiment.

[regal plover]

i mean i wouldn't say it's gaslighting

[fringe lynx]

Has someone suggested renaming #rust-help-1 -> #rust-help-1?

[regal plover]

yeah

oh

[craggy drift]

yes, Melo has already signaled that he's planning to improve that name

[sudden sorrel]

I was responding to "giving you shit about it" part sorry for the ambiguity

[regal plover]

i thought it was just gonna be renamed to #rust-questions-1 and such, that's a bit of a long name

[neon sinew]

that's already the improvement

[devout thicket]

well to be fair most people shut up and left when there was a 10m timeout lol

[shadow lily]

oh my bad

[sudden sorrel]

This is true

[neon sinew]

the improvement was putting the rust- prefix on it so that CTRL+K users can access it faster

[regal plover]

i wish ctrl + k was just specific to the server

[craggy drift]

someone raised the point that on a lot of other servers "questions and answers" is used to refer to something we call meta or server-feedback or server-guide. Maybe "help" or just "questions" avoids that ambiguity?

[neon sinew]

suggest that to the Discord feedback!

that's be something interesting to have

[craggy drift]

you go suggest that, you can open partner tickets

[regal plover]

#rust-help-1 makes sense i suppose since we have #981431291683700776

[hard notch]

Can some the channel descriptions be changed to better reflect their intended use? As it is, numbered channels share the exact same description, and it would probably help to say something like "overflow for if the other channel is too busy"

[craggy drift]

can do

[regal plover]

i mean, i feel like it's fine if people just talk in those channels even if the first one isn't busy right?

[sudden sorrel]

Sure

[devout thicket]

yeah it's just a load balancing thing, not necessarily an ordered overflow

[sudden sorrel]

We previously just had issues with one channel getting like 5 questions at the same time

[neon sinew]

my partner relationship doesn't work that way :c

I know what we need

[radiant acorn]

Why did gen-3 get moved above 1,2

[sudden sorrel]

Those are hard to follow for askers and answerers

[regal plover]

@craggy drift (before you rename it - should probably consider this)

[craggy drift]

Done! how does it look now?

ftr, both overflow channels still have the same description

[sudden sorrel]

Um discord being stupid maybe? On my mobile it's ordered

[radiant acorn]

Its been fixed

[hard notch]

[radiant acorn]

Whos the mod that did that dont make me look insane

[regal plover]

it seems strange to have each of them not be on the same level though

[neon sinew]

I am hosting a panel now

[regal plover]

is that like a only one person can speak thing?

i'm asking so i know whether to join because i don't wanna listen to an argument

that'd be kind of unpleasant

[devout thicket]

i don't see why this can't be done over text

voice kinda sucks for this stuff

[shadow lily]

The channel name discussion is honestly bikeshedding. I've seen this exact same thing happen with numbered channels. It is functionally almost entirely cosmetic when you remove the names that are offensively irrelevant. It's because everyone has different understandings of what words like "beginner" are.

[regal plover]

well there's 60 people in there so i'm assuming it's a listen only thing

[radiant acorn]

Wow its at 200 now

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah, agree

[devout thicket]

iirc discord pings people on mobile when a stage starts

it definitely used to when the feature was dropped

"X is hosting a stage in Y"

[regal plover]

i don't think the beginner channel renaming thing is just about the channel names though really, it's about the point of the channels

[craggy drift]

you can go into server settings and check out the audit log

[devout thicket]

yeah the bikeshedding is to the term beginner, but the concept is important imo

[sudden sorrel]

Well how I see it is now people learning get a whole section

And it's the top one

[craggy drift]

about two hours ago or so i've invited people to help me figure out what the concept that we want to separate out actually is, since it's evidently not "the person considers themselves a beginner"

[radiant acorn]

Moving channels doesn't emit an audit event

[craggy drift]

huh, i didn't know that. no idea then, sorry

[devout thicket]

it's a self-selection thing, people can ask questions anywhere. when a question is asked in the beginners channel it implicates that the asker themselves thinks they are inexperienced or have a potentially malformed question

it being at the top of the server encouraged a lot of new-joiners to ask there first aswell

which is generally correlative with being a beginner

[sudden sorrel]

The issue we have is we have two classes of beginner. New programmers and new rust developers

[devout thicket]

both of these can fall into the same group imo

[sudden sorrel]

But they have to be treated differently when answering

[devout thicket]

the former is going to struggle to do anything and the latter is going to struggle with new concepts in rust but the advice for the first one is generally

[sudden sorrel]

So your back to asking their skill level

[radiant acorn]

I feel like alot of new programmers went to beginners and new rust programmers went to questions, from the types of questions i saw asked there

[devout thicket]

"rust is a harder language to learn first"

[sudden sorrel]

I had the opposite impression

[devout thicket]

agreed, which sucks, but you can generally tell when someone is trying to learn programming vs. someone who is trying to learn rust

the former is kinda fucked and i don't think anyone in this server really wants to devote their time to teaching programming as a whole

[sudden sorrel]

So why do we need to split them into their own channels. Person has question, they go to the channel labeled questions. Simple and clean

[devout thicket]

either way i think the more important distinction is "i'm asking this and learning rust" vs "i'm asking this but i know rust"

maybe #rust-learners is a much better name

for what i'm getting at

[crystal drum]

ngl today has eroded a concerning amount of my faith in administration of this server

[devout thicket]

this too i'm like 🤏 to leaving

[sudden sorrel]

But like it's in the rust learning section

[regal plover]

i was thinking that, but i think a lot of people would still end up only talking in there forever

[crystal drum]

somehow we are expected to step away if we get heated, but melo can just mute, ban, and slowmode everyone

[devout thicket]

banner blindness lol, people don't really look at section names

people look at channel names

[shadow lily]

If you imagine them as like vector arrows terms like "beginner", "questions" and "discussion" don't diverge enough from each other to usefully disambiguate activity unlike "graphics" or "macros"... and as pen pointed out "beginner" is also an adjective meaning there's multiple subjects one can apply it to. This is also... only relevant to fluent English speakers. There is a high likelyhood that these terms are unhelpful for people who speak it as a second language and hurt accessibility.

[sudden sorrel]

So maybe rust-learning-QA-1

[devout thicket]

too long, could just be rust-learners-1 and rust-learners-2

[radiant acorn]

Yeah, that was kinda a mess :/

[regal plover]

only relevant to fluent English speakers
i don't know if that criticism makes sense, i don't see how questions-and-answers is any more accessible than beginners for people who aren't fluent english speakers

[sudden sorrel]

I like learning better, but hmm

[devout thicket]

rust-questions-and-answers-1 is way too long for a channel name

[shadow lily]

probably why it's just "help" and "general"

[devout thicket]

as in

it doesn't fit on my screen

[regal plover]

#rust-help-1 #rust-help-2

[sudden sorrel]

Maybe melo should give up the Ctrl k thing

[shadow lily]

oh lol didn't see those lmao

[fringe lynx]

rust-help-1 seems the most fitting with rust-help-forum and rust-general-1 to me

[sudden sorrel]

Help is good

[craggy drift]

would it make sense to give people self-selecting roles that carry more semantics than just a binary channel choice?

kind of like the pronouns?

[devout thicket]

help is kind of ambiguous along the line of "i'm learning rust"/"i know rust"

[devout thicket]

i think less people would go through the effort

[regal plover]

i mean i kind of appreciate it, i always find it annoying when it's hard to find channels in ctrl k

[shadow lily]

What is the optin criteria for these? I have every box checked but I wasn't in them???

[devout thicket]

i've not even bothered to self-select my pronouns because i can't be bothered to find the buttons that do it

[regal plover]

you need to select rust intermediate/beginner or manually enable them

[devout thicket]

but i'm on the lazy end

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah, honestly I didn't even know it was a thing before this discussion 😅

[craggy drift]

good question, that's a discord misfeature I haven't figured out yet

[devout thicket]

also yeah these new channels are invisible to most people via whatever discord nonsense

[regal plover]

which is another thing that i think could probably be changed, they should probably just be included by default

[craggy drift]

yeah, that's unfortunately true …

[regal plover]

just to encourage people to answer stuff

[devout thicket]

this is the whole point behind ui/ux stuff

[sudden sorrel]

Advanced currently disables them which melo said he would work on

[devout thicket]

the simplest thing for the user to do should be correct

infact this is a pretty core principle of the rust language lol

[dusky drum]

re: can't click the link to The Guide on mobile, am I blind or is The Guide not even showing on the new mobile ux?

[shadow lily]

They're select one??? Which means people looking to help can only access 1 category at a time.

[regal plover]

i think the guide might not show up on the new mobile ux

[dusky drum]

i'd expect it right above #rules

[craggy drift]

we do agree on that, i just don't think that the channel selection carries enough nuance for what we want. i'm open to suggestions though!

[sudden sorrel]

Is what I see on android

[regal plover]

actually that kind of seems like a big issue considering channels & roles doesn't either

[devout thicket]

just fundamentally think that a server like this shouldn't need a guide at all

there should be something in the channel names that let users self-select for "i'm learning rust" vs "i know rust"

[amber canopy]

Oh no what is this new UX

[regal plover]

it's not on the new interface, that's the old one

though i imagine discord will surely fix it before they make the new interface the default... right

[devout thicket]

in my opinion, #rust-learners is a good shout

i think #rust-beginners was good too, but beginners can have a slightly negative connotation

[crystal drum]

i have personally never seen any UX guide that says users actually read stuff that is thrown at them

[devout thicket]

how many of the bash users in the chat have actually read the bash manpages

:3

[crystal drum]

there's studies that back this up

[regal plover]

this still doesn't address people being scared of asking stuff in other channels due to feeling like they're too new or something though

which is the primary reason why beginners doesn't exist anymore from what i can understand

[radiant acorn]

fuck man are they still pushing tabsv2

[devout thicket]

i'm not sure how to work around that as that's kind of a personal-anxiety thing

[regal plover]

i have no idea

[devout thicket]

i think that's going to happen no matter what, but the server shouldn't do anything to make that anxiety worse

[regal plover]

well we're also trying to have #rust-learners be a thing to work around the same kind of personal anxiety

[craggy drift]

thanks, i'll try to keep it in mind

[regal plover]

i think it should be a thing because i'd rather have people talk in one channel than not talk at all

also i do think the word learners could potentially make it less of an issue

[devout thicket]

yeah learners is probably best

also the difference between discussion and question is loose at best

most questions end up being discussions after 1 minute

[sudden sorrel]

Yeah

[craggy drift]

well, i think the statement could use more nuance. servers need a guide (as a fact), but you shouldn't need a guide to start using it (as a goal)

[devout thicket]

i'm honestly of the opinion that the best design is the one you don't think about at all

[regal plover]

i mean i don't think it's a good idea to not have a question channel, otherwise the rust generals will be 90% questions

[craggy drift]

would you agree that the category being Rust Learning is already a step in that direction?

[devout thicket]

and this is something widely regarded as a truth (there's multiple classic books on this)

[devout thicket]

i don't think anyone really reads category names due to banner blindness

[shadow lily]

Those categories literally just should not exist. 9 channels just for quick help?

[regal plover]

9 channels?

there's just 3

[dusky drum]

yeah not sure about others but i tend to even forget those exists rather quickly

[craggy drift]

the thing is that because the design changed, everyone is forced to think about it. this is why i give less weight to unstructured feedback that comes in immediately and tend to wait for 1. concrete pain points and 2. persistent complaints

[shadow lily]

I can't even screenshot it cause it's bugged

[craggy drift]

fair point, i'll keep that in mind

[regal plover]

uhh i think your interface might just be broken?

[devout thicket]

yeah basically any change will net you criticism but the right approach to criticism there isn't to say things along the lines of "you'll come around"

it comes across as really arrogant in a kind of

"we know better than you" way

[sudden sorrel]

rust-some-questions, rust-more-questions,
rust-whats-a-question

[fringe lynx]

if the server guide is just a slightly better presented version of the stuff in the information channels, i dont see any harm in it. dont you have to wait when joining the server anyways?

[fierce flame]

I think so?

[craggy drift]

that's not what i'm saying though

it's kind of the opposite

i'm saying "if it still feels bad after a few days, we really do need to fix it"

[devout thicket]

yea that totally makes sense, it just feels awful for the people who are giving criticism a before that point

i'm not burning 2 hours in this channel for fun and you probably aren't either - i'm just saying this because i'm sufficiently inconvenienced by the changes

[craggy drift]

it's tricky to get the wording right in response to those people, i start to understand why professionals prefer canned responses

[sudden sorrel]

I am here to see the drama

[craggy drift]

i'm glad to hear that, i've had to argue with someone in the past who argued for two hours for fun

[sudden sorrel]

Which reminds me I need to finish my hydrogen/refined oil load balancer in Dyson sphere program

[devout thicket]

i should actually write rust code instead of spending all day talking about it

😭

[sudden sorrel]

I took the day off work

[craggy drift]

if someone wants to collect a list of concrete pain points and concrete suggestions for improvement (they can contradict each other), I'd love that, btw

I might get around to that myself, but i need to get dinner first

9:40pm and still nothing

[devout thicket]

every day is a day off work when you're suddenly unemployed 😔

[sudden sorrel]

We didn't get Juneteenth so I took it off anyways

[oak cloud]

Not really. The problem is melo keeps making this server more confusing to use and it’s seriously upsetting

[crystal drum]

and handling criticism extremely poorly

[devout thicket]

• there should be a channel for people who are learning rust so that their questions aren't mixed in with people who know rust

this is because the two are contextually different questions and often require different answers; most of the time, beginner questions are malformed in a way because they don't know what they should be asking. this causes a lot of xy stuff

also, having learners/beginners in the name of the channel means people aren't as incentivised to talk about their deep compiler knowledge that technically answers their question but doesn't help them at all

• you guys need to seriously work on your moderation response as quite frankly it's embarassing, childish and ruins my opinion of this server.

june deserves an apology, banning them was completely out of line, and basically everything melo did was unacceptably rude.

• the channel names shouldn't be as long and you shouldn't be depending on discord features that don't work
• don't make things worse for people that are already in the server for a hypothetical new user
• it is well known that nobody reads documentation, please stop shoving the guide in peoples faces when they don't understand the new design. that's not how ux works and its insulting

[craggy drift]

there's certainly room for improvement on our side, but you and able specifically have voiced your criticism in an extremely unhelpful manner

[craggy drift]

thanks!

[fierce flame]

this stage is helping a lot

[crystal drum]

i know, i dont always handle things well, but i didnt mute, ban, slowmode, etc

[slender root]

Reading this history I suddenly feel like I completely understand why some people would say "don't join this server" 😐

[crystal drum]

you always tell me to step away if i get heated, why does that not apply to those up above us lol

[slender root]

Nobody has any chill apparently

[fierce flame]

both me and pen told Melo to step away, I believe

[craggy drift]

I didn't, but you and someone else have

[devout thicket]

yeah this is seriously on-par with like, an anime server; i expected a lot better from a server that represents a programming language i love

[craggy drift]

Anden and I will take that up with Melo in the mod-chat, don't worry

[devout thicket]

maybe i'm being a bit of an ass here but then again i felt completely disrespected so /shrug

if melo can't handle criticism of their actions without outbursts they should step down from running the server, or just refrain from making controversial decisions without oversight

[crystal drum]

i also find it extremely weird that its up to us to prove something, instead of up to those making the change in the first place

it should be up to melo to prove that people read popups and guides, not the inverse

[torpid pier]

Same tbh. This server is 90% chill and has usually fairly good moderation, but this channel is telling me a different story than what I'm used to. I hope we soon return to the usual moderation strategies and not being unnecessarily passive aggressive and brutal moderation responses

Anyways rant done back to useful information

[crystal drum]

and literally every UX guide ive ever seen says the complete opposite

so show me what guides say that

[craggy drift]

it's generally expected that the one who makes a claim ("the new channels aren't accessible") provide some sort of reasoning or evidence for their claim

[crystal drum]

No, its up to the ones making the change to prove that it works

[craggy drift]

we've provided that for why we thought the change was necessary

[sudden sorrel]

On that note, personally I do feel that melo broke the code of conduct with this interaction

[torpid pier]

You've stated that point too many times, I think the mods get it now

[crystal drum]

its not up to me to prove that it doesnt work

[craggy drift]

thanks, i'll bring that up as well

[fierce flame]

I aim to make sure that sufficient justification is provided before future changes are made

in a nice condensed summary

[torpid pier]

Yay

[craggy drift]

we've provided reasoning why we think it'll work, unstructured "it's inaccessible" won't convince other people

[devout thicket]

(i'm blessed to work with one of the best UI designers in the UK so all this stuff about reading documentation comes off horribly to me)

[regal plover]

i mean i do think it's fair to say people should justify their criticism

[devout thicket]

totally agree, and i think we did - until we were slowmoded lol

[craggy drift]

you'll surely remember that Melo agreed with you on the crucial point of people overlooking documentation and long text

[crystal drum]

i posted a study that proves my point lol

[granite minnow]

(sorry, don't wish to interrupt, but is there a readily available TLDR about why these changes were made in the first place?)

[devout thicket]

yeah, but i also remember them adamantly disagreeing with me and asking me to "prove" that people don't read documentation

[regal plover]

well yeah, but like, you seem to be saying we didn't need to prove anything, when really we should have (and i think posting that study does do that)

[crystal drum]

its the same reasoning all the time, melo perceives something is wrong and it tries to get fixed

[craggy drift]

i find quite the opposite. I've asked several people repeatedly for more background and got at best incomplete feedback. where it was complete, I thanked them and accepted it without further objection

[sudden sorrel]

On a side side note, thanks discord this makes it so much easier to follow the conversation

[craggy drift]

i think that evidences that both people were talking about slightly different hings

[devout thicket]

i'm sorry but everything said in this screenshot is so horribly misguided it's hard to think we're agreeing

[crystal drum]

i honestly want to know what UX course says this lol

[regal plover]

i mean i think people were talking about the same thing (whether people read documentation or not) unless i'm misunderstanding what melo was saying i guess

[craggy drift]

wait, does the onboarding flow not require people to read certain things before they join?

[oak cloud]

No. Lol

[devout thicket]

people skim things even if they're "required" to read it

how often do you read ToS's

[torpid pier]

Most people will do the same as they do to website ToSs, just skip over em

[craggy drift]

i think it only looked that way. otherwise you wouldn't get such vehement disagreement while agreeing on a slightly different phrasing]

[devout thicket]

does anyone even read the contents of those cookie popups

[torpid pier]

Yes

[craggy drift]

I didn't say "force"

[sudden sorrel]

I mean there is a reason rule 6 is a thing

[devout thicket]

i reflexively snap onto the reject all button like a cs:go god

[torpid pier]

• me
• my friend

[devout thicket]

nerd :P

[regal plover]

augh why can you not search things in a forum thread

[crystal drum]

people read terms of service agreements that force them to scroll, right?

[craggy drift]

Because Discord is good software

[torpid pier]

Discord half baked feature moment

[devout thicket]

hey lets make the video autoplay, then users will watch it!

[craggy drift]

I didn't say "force"

[crystal drum]

https://tenor.com/view/ron-swanson-throw-computer-useless-mad-gif-9550833

[devout thicket]

fun ux question: what the FUCK is a carousel for

nobody knows

[craggy drift]

acquiring VC money

[torpid pier]

Eepy was making a joke about forcing you to scroll through ToS before acceptance not working, not specifically aimed at you

[devout thicket]

also even if it was required most people won't read it anyway

this is just a known truth in design

[craggy drift]

nah, it's still required. that's what I was asking about

[crystal drum]

you cant force people to read

required doesnt imply people will do it properly

[sudden sorrel]

We already acknowledged that people can't even get what this server is about sometimes...

[crystal drum]

99.99% of the time they wont

[regal plover]

even when people hide like keywords in rules to make people actually read them people still just scan over until they find whatever they have to type in to be accepted

[craggy drift]

man people are really insistent on reading things I didn't say

maybe zk is right

[crystal drum]

yeah now you know how it feels sometimes xd

[devout thicket]

i mean what i'm saying isn't really up for debate it's like... completely settled in the actual field

[torpid pier]

Rephrased: you cant require people to read something on a discord onboarding

[devout thicket]

its one of the very few things that actually is settled

[torpid pier]

Sure you can require them to see it

[craggy drift]

and once again, Melo agreed with you

[torpid pier]

But there is always a chance they won't read it

[crystal drum]

there is always pretty much a guarantee they wont*

[regal plover]

i'm not sure what you meant by required pen
do you mean like, whether people have to fully scroll through it or whether they are directed to it or something?

[craggy drift]

i was asking about whether they were directed towards those windows, yeah

[devout thicket]

the closest thing to requiring people to read is to insert strings they have to reiterate inside the rules

[craggy drift]

mostly for clarification

[torpid pier]

Anyways I need to sleep for tmrw exam so yeah

[devout thicket]

like hiding "if you see this, type among us" in the rules or whatever

but even then that shit sucks

[craggy drift]

5 minutes until it's 10pm and i haven't had dinner

[torpid pier]

You probably should

[devout thicket]

ferrogus lmfao

[craggy drift]

i agree

[torpid pier]

Also TIL that you and I have same timezone, huh

Gn

[regal plover]

i am kind of confused on what the conversation is about now

[sudden sorrel]

We lost the conversation once June was snapped

[craggy drift]

zk is repeating that a lot of people ignore documentation and server guides and I'm repeating that Melo agreed with that statement

[torpid pier]

As far as I can tell: trying to make the new channels easier to use/navigate without requiring lots of docs

[regal plover]

ah okay

[torpid pier]

But that isn't happening much

[craggy drift]

yeah, while also avoiding deceptive phrases like "beginner" that seem really obvious but aren't

[regal plover]

i mean honestly the channels aren't really that hard to navigate without docs, i think they're pretty clearly named

[devout thicket]

i don't think beginner was that harmful but i think learner is a strict improvement

everything else is fine imo

[regal plover]

the beginner issue is an issue with something else, not with how easy they are to navigate

[torpid pier]

Same

[devout thicket]

i dont really understand the point of the rest of the channels

[oak cloud]

Wait someone was kicked because of this?

[devout thicket]

banned

[torpid pier]

They are mostly self explanatory

[torpid pier]

Tempbanned

[regal plover]

also is june going to be unbanned?

[fierce flame]

temp banned and we will resolve it in mod chat

[sudden sorrel]

Oh also if you haven't already, do let melo know that his original statements about "read the guide" as a response did come off as not directed at the person asking the question but as a general thing. I think that's how it all went down hill

[fierce flame]

ye I'll do it

[torpid pier]

Anyways phone away now I am being carried away from sleep by this

[craggy drift]

right, Melo did okay to turn it into a tempmute

[fierce flame]

uhh anyone got their ID?

[oak cloud]

Yike, whom was the issuer of the ban and can I get a link to when it happened?

[sudden sorrel]

Then we got into the talking past each other and then everyone got upset and then the ban happened

[regal plover]

i mean they've already been banned for a while

[devout thicket]

i think the fact that they were even kneejerk tempbanned in the first place shows a complete lack of maturity

[granite minnow]

agreed

[crystal drum]

yeah

[craggy drift]

it's in #rustlog-turtle

[devout thicket]

also the discussion leading up to that too was disgusting

[regal plover]

well the mods have already said they'll talk about it in mod chat and i'm not sure what else can be done really

[devout thicket]

"leave the server and wait 10 mins so you can see the new onboarding, or i will ban you" paraphrasing, but that was the choice offered to them

[oak cloud]

Fr, def some trust lost with that move

[gilded warren]

Christ.

[sudden sorrel]

Hello monad you missed the interesting stuff

[gilded warren]

I can see that

[shadow lily]

This is my meta-critique of this after observing this for 2+ years... yes it's been going on for this long:

• The changes that are made are always too big and there's too many of them.
• Since the changes are too big it takes a lot more energy for people to give precise feedback. Combined with the fact that larger changes will produce noisier feedback, feedback as a whole will be more noisy.
• The parties involved in making the changes might have levels of literacy on the subject but my honest evaluation is they have not developed the skills necessary to engage with feedback let alone the type of feedback produced by mass controversial changes. Developing these skills requires exposure and practice in good feedback loops.
• Specifically:
• People talk past each other and do not test their assumptions.
• People lose all their energy.
• Things become personal when there's no need for them to and things become childish and about who approves what instead of the rationale.
• You will always get critiques on the changes but never anything about that process beyond shallow pokes. Frankly it's not something you should rely on getting or ask for as that kind of meta-cognition is rare and exhausting to exercise (I've been thinking about this for the past 4 hours).

So:
Changes are too big -> get feedback you can't handle -> this never gets brought up -> make new changes without down scaling -> repeat.

[fierce flame]

sounds about right

[gilded warren]

Anyone mind if I pin that

[devout thicket]

extremely good summary

[regal plover]

i think that's a good point

[fierce flame]

me

[devout thicket]

if this has been going on for 2 years then that's honestly terrible

[craggy drift]

I don't think the first part is paraphrased correctly. He said "read the server rules for 10 minutes or I will ban you to enforce this"

[devout thicket]

that's just as bad and what i was trying to paraphrase

[crystal drum]

ive been here 3 years, and yes this is a pattern of bad decisions and bad reaction to critique IMO

[devout thicket]

it's a disgusting ultimatum to give someone just because they disagree with a change

[regal plover]

ok well to avoid any ambiguity

nah. I think that if you just read the ⁠Server Guide and sit down for 10 minutes to understand the changes, you'll be happier. otherwise, you can leave the server for 10 minutes and try joining as a new user. your choice
this is the exact message

[gilded warren]

I'm not prepared to get into this right now, (on phone and hanging with family) but I'd like to come back to address that later.

[devout thicket]

"your choice" there comes across as so childish and spiteful

[oak cloud]

[craggy drift]

thanks, i tried to quote it but messed up the clipboard

[gilded warren]

Sometimes the mods need modding

[craggy drift]

i can see how it'd come across as such, but I don't personally read it in this tone (and have not read it as childish and spiteful at the time)

[devout thicket]

it reads extremely snarky to me

[regal plover]

i also think it reads as snarky

[craggy drift]

there's some snark in it, yes, but that's not a property I perceive as childish and spiteful

non-native speaker though

[regal plover]

i mean, i'd say at least spiteful

[oak cloud]

It feels like a threat.

[regal plover]

yeah

[sudden sorrel]

At least on this discord we keep it in the server channels. I once had a slack (it was for a robotics team) where someone was super upset with the leadership/moderators and started posting things in the main chat. And when they got muted from those chats they went around and started a whole thing. Ended up with the team basically imploding because of it

[devout thicket]

yeah it seems like a threat aswell

[sudden sorrel]

Not fun time

[craggy drift]

i mean, yes. you can't give a clear moderator warning that isn't a threat

[crystal drum]

silencing people that critique your decisions is childish id say

[devout thicket]

snark in a moderator is an extremely childish thing to have

imo

[craggy drift]

yeah, about that

you'll be very disappointed with most other moderators on this server then

[devout thicket]

that's not a good thing to say

everything i've seen from april and anden3 has been extremely levelheaded and reasonable

[sudden sorrel]

I mean we are the "community" discord server 🤷‍♂️

[craggy drift]

i do not think that is a fair summary of what happened and I'm disappointed that you still try to frame this discussion in such a combative way

[crystal drum]

that doesnt inspire much confidence in the mods after having it be blatantly broken today lol

[gilded warren]

I think something we can agree on is that Melo needs to take a break. To me, it looked like an act of frustration. Which isn't good, of course.

[fierce flame]

ye

[glossy dawn]

*peeks in* ho boy

[regal plover]

i think the difference is usually the other times mods are snarky it mostly makes sense (like, a lot of it happens when people are just being bigoted) but it was unwarranted this time

[fierce flame]

hi sara uwu

[sudden sorrel]

Go back to the land of the living

[craggy drift]

feel free to gather consensus in the community to have me replaced then. i'd appreciate having free evenings again

[regal plover]

and it comes off as childish because of this, probably

[devout thicket]

silencing people while chastising them, banning people in a kneejerk way is pretty much a surefire way to make people not want to criticise you and that's extremely combative imo

[glossy dawn]

do you know how boring people with a life are

[devout thicket]

also getting frustrated over backlash to a discord change is..

taking stuff like that personally is insane to me

[regal plover]

i mean i think it's reasonable, because melo probably cares about the server, but also he should have stepped away rather than doing that until he felt calmer

[glossy dawn]

sorry, I need a tally, how many people got muted and how many got banned over this?

[gilded warren]

I try. I do have the benefit of not having been immersed in this convo for as long and generally not really caring about the issue at hand, so it's easier for me to be meta about how it's handled.

[devout thicket]

everyone slowmoded while melo chastised them

and then 1 person banned for a day

[regal plover]

one person got banned for 1 day

[sudden sorrel]

I believe it was just June

[fierce flame]

no mutes, one temp ban that has now been revoked after around an hour

[regal plover]

yeah

[devout thicket]

do you seriously think that person is going to come back though?

that's such a horrible experience for them lol

[regal plover]

yeah i'm kind of just expecting him to just never rejoin tbh

[crystal drum]

i hope melo apologizes to them at least

[gilded warren]

I would really like it if they did, but I'm not super optimistic.

[sudden sorrel]

June was one of our best answerers

[neon sinew]

hi, I'm here!

[fierce flame]

ye I'd definitely want to see that too

[craggy drift]

I don't think it's fair to put melo on blast for over an hour of unstructured unproductive criticism and then to criticize him for being stressed by it. That doesn't excuse any actions on his part, but the discussion could benefit from some empathy

[sudden sorrel]

Welcome back melo

[neon sinew]

they're free to come back. if they do, I'd apologize to them

[gilded warren]

Hi melo.

[granite minnow]

I spoke with them on another server and they seemed to genuinely think they were just giving constructive criticism (which they were IMO). They seemed surprised and upset with the ban.

sad situation

[crystal drum]

yes, so why do you never give me that when its happened to me in the past?

[gilded warren]

Hm? Why do you think you're not banned

[devout thicket]

i agree i think what they were saying was constructive and they only got frustrated after being slowmoded; while they were slowmoded they were getting criticised and couldn't respond for ten minutes. at that point i think all bets are off and they were probably too aggravated to care

[gilded warren]

lol

[craggy drift]

i muted Borger for 30 minutes because I was afraid he'd escalate the discussion at a point when it was feeling tense but productive

[neon sinew]

and yes, I was very frustrated and stressed when I banned them. it had that bad of an effect on me. but I'm happy with revoking any moderation actions against that user now and letting them back in

[gilded warren]

Thank you melo.

[crystal drum]

im talking about me getting warned/muted in the past for getting heated in conversations

[neon sinew]

I needed slowmode because my watch beeped saying my BPM was over 120 for 5 minutes

[crystal drum]

that seems so backwards to me

[gilded warren]

Hm. I'll look into it.

[regal plover]

i mean i do think originally the criticism was fairly structured and it only got worse when people got frustrated because they felt like they weren't being listened to

[crystal drum]

you need to leave, not restrict others

[gusty timber]

there's a stark difference between being snarky casually and being snarky when moderating, and i think that line was crossed very much here in a way i haven't seen before in this server

[craggy drift]

maybe i'm misremembering, but what I do know you for is not getting heated in conversations, but rather heating them to a boiling point in the first place.

[neon sinew]

the slowmode is a moderation tool. I use it when I am stressed but still need to be present. if people dislike slowmode, then I ask them to stop stressing me out :c

[devout thicket]

that's backwards imo

[neon sinew]

it is!

[oak cloud]

Bad take.

[gilded warren]

I do think we need to have a talk about how mods should deal with this frustration.

...let me get to my laptop.

[crystal drum]

there were 3+ mods, you can step away just fine lol, dont try to excuse this

[regal plover]

is that the issue? i think the issue is that the moderator action itself wasn't warranted
the mods are snarky in here quite often, but it's usually when someone's being really awful

[granite minnow]

Everyone makes mistakes, but as a mod you should be more keenly aware of the impact of your actions. If you need to take care of yourself, there are other ways than lashing out at users. Anyways, I don't have anything productive to add to this conversation so I'll just leave it at that, but all I can say is that this whole situation was mostly avoidable and ultimately led to more frustration than anything else.

[devout thicket]

i think if you're not equipped to deal with feedback and criticism on your changes, you shouldn't be making them

otherwise you just take it out on other people who care about the server

[gusty timber]

I'm not trying to attack you, but as with all due respect, i think if you're aggravated, you don't need to be here. you can take a couple minutes, no one's going to blame you for it. there were other moderators here, even if it was getting heated.

[devout thicket]

june will probably not rejoin now and we've lost someone who was really good at answering questions

[neon sinew]

consider this: #rules

I was asking him to understand the id:guide because it's a helpful resource. I acknowledge it's not needed and it shouldn't be needed. But I believed he was needing to read it. And yet, he was very stubborn seeing past that point. He was not being awesome to me

[craggy drift]

no, I disagree very strongly with this. initially, most of the feedback was an unstructed and uncompromising demand to roll everything back. there was some useful stuff in the middle and I think I tried to pick up what I saw

[devout thicket]

consider this: #rules

this is my point

[craggy drift]

thanks, I can accept that

[sudden sorrel]

This is why I consider everything I make as horrible. Helps with my self esteem a lot