serious-discussion

[hushed turret]

cool

[dense belfry]

I think gamma might have gotten into model theory because of me actually

That's weird

[hushed turret]

you r a positive influence

[bright hill]

lmao

[dense belfry]

@sick burrow can you confirm?

[light needle]

lol

[hushed turret]

how many times have you pinged gamma in this convo 😭

[dense belfry]

Like twice

[light needle]

no twice didnt ping gamma

wdym

[hushed turret]

four times at least

[swift sinew]

Thrice Emma

[hushed turret]

once again, i find myself incapable of counting

[dense belfry]

Well it also gives timestamps

For the stuff I want them to see

I guess

[light needle]

what math r yall doing this fine morning

[hushed turret]

highlights

[bright hill]

rudin

I'm also gonna read princeton companion's section on axioms

[hushed turret]

artin ch3

[dense belfry]

Anyway yeah that's a highlight reel of the more unsavory parts of my and gammas relationship

[light needle]

based

[hushed turret]

also, it's 7:30pm

[bright hill]

bruh, ch3 already?

[light needle]

oh right

i have decided murphys c* book sucks

and will return to dana willaims notes

[dense belfry]

[hushed turret]

weary

[dense belfry]

Wow that was a while ago

[hushed turret]

two years yah

[light needle]

this is still true

@eager trout

[eager trout]

???

[dense belfry]

Sorry whoever😭

[bright hill]

[eager trout]

Hello why am I being bullied again

[light needle]

lol

[bright hill]

coz it's funny, I assume

dunno

[eager trout]

[bright hill]

[light needle]

that isnt even that old

[dense belfry]

Don't be scared of me whoever

[light needle]

wanna know when whoever and i met

#help-6 message

[eager trout]

I literally remember showing something #groups-rings-fields and emma said the proof was good

[light needle]

i remember showing up emma in a proof when i was 17

[eager trout]

Bro it hasn’t been too long since I did math either

[dense belfry]

Checks out

Oh do you not do math anymore?

[light needle]

whoever is a monk now

[sick burrow]

[dense belfry]

idk if there was any basis in what I said whoever

I don't remember

[hushed turret]

hi gamma

[sick burrow]

if by "pushed towards a better path" you mean "bullied off of the server" then that would be correct

[dense belfry]

Probably not that much anyway because you were a kid

Oh oof

[sick burrow]

I mean I wasn't really a kid

[dense belfry]

Oh I was talking to whoever

[light needle]

how old r u

[dense belfry]

But also you were

Because I'm a decent amount older than you

[sick burrow]

I was like 19 when I was first talking here

[light needle]

thats not that much older

right

im 19 now!

[sick burrow]

lmao

[dense belfry]

Did you really feel like you had to leave the server?

[eager trout]

Lol

[dense belfry]

I'm sorry for that

[eager trout]

You’re 19?

[light needle]

yes.

[dense belfry]

How true is this?

[sick burrow]

not in the slightest

[eager trout]

Oh yeah you’re only 2 months older than me

[dense belfry]

Okay cool

Good to know

[light needle]

gamma taking revenge

lol

[dense belfry]

I thought I may have told you model theory stuff

[sick burrow]

I got into model theory because I took a really good class with the logician at my school

[dense belfry]

Or something

Okay

[sick burrow]

and then he told me to do a model theory reading course

[light needle]

we r both gonna be 20 soon whoever

[dense belfry]

I actually had the exact same experience gamma

[sick burrow]

I do find it funny that we both ended up in logic though

[light needle]

cant believe i wasted so much of my life

[sick burrow]

not sure what branch I'll be in though

[light needle]

this is a clear cut

[sick burrow]

too early for me to know

[light needle]

enemy to lovers scenario imo

[bright hill]

[light needle]

[eager trout]

#groups-rings-fields message
Proof of emma’s approval to my math skills 😌

[bright hill]

we're barely 2 years apart

[dense belfry]

[bright hill]

wtf

[sick burrow]

haven't seen any recursion/computability theory

[sick burrow]

largely

like you were maybe 65-70% of why I left

[dense belfry]

Oof

[sick burrow]

at one point I was considering coming back with an alt named HorseHater

[hushed turret]

LMAO

[bright hill]

LMFAO

[sick burrow]

and pretending it was a coincidence and I had never met you

[dense belfry]

Sorry about that

[light needle]

die.

[dense belfry]

That's so funny

[hushed turret]

that's tragic but also perfect

[dense belfry]

Horsehater

[bright hill]

don't you see we're in the middle of something?

[light needle]

emma confronting her inner bojack rn

[fast ivy]

[dense belfry]

Someone was very angry at me once irl and I didn't recognize them

Like I had talked to them once and forgotten them

And couldn't remember

[sick burrow]

ok this had a good context

[dense belfry]

Yeah my modern stuff is pretty okay

I think

[light needle]

i think im still mean

maybe

[sick burrow]

which is that you were going to explain why compactness is intuitive (it's not)

[light needle]

well emma u say that

[dense belfry]

My older stuff I was just trying to pick fights sometimes

[light needle]

but wb

cv

[dense belfry]

Oh right

[light needle]

[dense belfry]

Yeah it is intuitive

But I never went into that

[sick burrow]

no

it can't be

[bright hill]

literally a minute ago

[dense belfry]

Because we forgot

Like I started

[light needle]

you just have the wrong intuition 🙂

everything is intuitive if u think about it

[sick burrow]

no I just am not coping

[dense belfry]

Yes

Lol

[sick burrow]

having a good intuition for compactness is 100% a cope

[dense belfry]

No you are coping too hard

In the other direction

[sick burrow]

it's a bullshit result

that makes no sense

[dense belfry]

That's not true

It makes a lot of sense

It's literally just about how first order logic isn't very expressive

[sick burrow]

and all model theorists collectively are coping by convincing themselves one of the central results of their field isn't dark magic bullshit

[fast ivy]

[bright hill]

wait, I'm not the only one who has weak/no intuition in point set?

bruh

[hushed turret]

if i am ever being an asshole to anyone here, please tell me to fuck off immediately

[sick burrow]

no I mean compactness theorem for model theory

[hushed turret]

lol not topological compactness

[fast ivy]

They are talking about the compactness theorem in first order logic

[sick burrow]

topological compactness is fine

[dense belfry]

I have like 3 different intuitions about how it makes a lot of sense

[fast ivy]

[dense belfry]

And they're all very nice

[bright hill]

[light needle]

yellow name pressures me not to be a dick sometimes

[hushed turret]

sorry darq </3

[light needle]

devest

[sick burrow]

I have decent intuition for it I think

[dense belfry]

devest

[sick burrow]

my intuition is that proofs are finite

[dense belfry]

Yeah that's one reason why it's true

[light needle]

ur mum isnt

[dense belfry]

That was Godels original proof

[bright hill]

I'll pay real money to see you act like an asshole lmao

that'd be wild

[hushed turret]

[dense belfry]

Before Henkin came up with the better way of doing things

And Malcev

[bright hill]

that was supposed to be a complement

[dense belfry]

Well actually the theorem was originally due to Malcev

Not Godel

What am I saying

[light needle]

this is ur opportunity gamma

be mean

take vengence

[bright hill]

aight

[hushed turret]

be nice gamma

[bright hill]

imma head out

you guys have fun

[hushed turret]

maintain moral superiority

bye darq

[dense belfry]

But yeah if I remember correctly the original proof was a corrolary of Godel's completeness + finiteness of proofs

And then the ultrafilter approach came later

[hushed turret]

ultrafilter is a cool word for a thing

[dense belfry]

I was confused because Godel had a different original proof of completeness than the current one we use due to Henkin

[sick burrow]

The thing about compactness is

You can show me 5 elegant proofs of why it makes perfect sense

That won't change the fact that it's actuall application is like 90% dark magic

[dense belfry]

Eh I don't think so

Like it's really concrete and combinatorial

If you get into it

Oh you can also do it much more constructively

[sick burrow]

There is no largest integer QED nonstandard model of PA

[dense belfry]

Than choosing a nonprincipal ultrafilter

Okay gamma look

[sick burrow]

There is no universe where that isn't stupid

[dense belfry]

Here's a nicer version of that

[sick burrow]

I don't care how much sense it makes

[dense belfry]

So you know henkin's construction right

[sick burrow]

Yeah

[mortal igloo]

What's compactness in model theory?

Is it related to topological compactness at all?

[sick burrow]

[dense belfry]

Yes

[light needle]

a first order theory has a model iff all finite subsets do

this is equivalent to compactness of something we call the stone space of a theory

[mortal igloo]

Wait does "compactness" mean a theorem in this case rather than a property of something

[dense belfry]

Compactness means you can glue together a locally consistent set of formula into a globally consistent one

It's about gluing together models

Of finite subsets of formula

[mortal igloo]

oh

[dense belfry]

To get a model of all the formula

[sick burrow]

Oh interesting. I never thought of it that way

[dense belfry]

Yes

That's why I said it's intuitive

[sick burrow]

Still isn't

[dense belfry]

Lol

This is one way I find it intuitive

[sick burrow]

Look Emma

[light needle]

maybe ur just not cut out for this gamma

[dense belfry]

You can actually formalize this gluing

[light needle]

🙂

[dense belfry]

As a global section

[sick burrow]

You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into

[dense belfry]

On a sheaf

Fair enough

[sick burrow]

My objection to compactness is moral

Wait explain this sheaf thing

I'm curious

[hushed turret]

oh god not again

[dense belfry]

So the sheaf is on the stone space of the boolean algebra of the theory

[sick burrow]

What is a sheaf again

[dense belfry]

Okay I actually have to leave

I'm late for a meal

Like very late

[sick burrow]

Ok explain later

[dense belfry]

[hushed turret]

oh

[dense belfry]

Okay sure

[sick burrow]

I'm busy now too

[hushed turret]

enjoy your meal emma

[sick burrow]

Actually

[neat lintel]

What are yall doing /have yall done your phd in/about

Curious

[next schooner]

Stochastic simulation techniques for reaction-advection-diffusion systems

[ancient flame]

guys the hair in my sink made a theta

[neat lintel]

which hair is this. too short to be head hair, too long to be brows.

[ancient flame]

I have no idea

probably ball hair

[neat lintel]

pretty sure it's bird hair

[ancient flame]

no it's actually head hair @neat lintel

my hair is p short

[neat lintel]

This does not make any sense

[bright hill]

https://open.spotify.com/track/5vUaPsEVEsmv5J11CTgjBA?si=fee9c5863e5d4393

is so fucking underrated omg

[neat lintel]

Not bad but quite boring

[undone stratus]

heklp

i need help

pls

[brisk aspen]

heklp

i need help

pls

[neat lintel]

no thank you.

[neat lintel]

80

[celest summit]

178

[celest summit]

I think [0,6)

[pearl mauve]

I have a challenge (in calculation)
But only tool allowed is your mind okay?

Q1: what is 3 × 47

And say how did you solve it

[prisma swallow]

141

[pearl mauve]

Yep

But how?

[prisma swallow]

3x40 + 3x7

[pearl mauve]

377

141

[prisma swallow]

Dsc Does not let me do the star

[pearl mauve]

141

Still you didn't answer my question

[pearl mauve]

How

[swift sinew]

\ * is how you do it

[pearl mauve]

@swift sinew 24× 8

Nothing allowed but yr brain

Ok looks like I have to go

I am still waiting tho..

[sleek wing]

192

[sick burrow]

Ok I have a question

Nothing allowed but your brain

$|P(\aleph_0)|$

[fathom swallow]

geometry #1 enemy

[swift sinew]

Can I use a calculator

[sick burrow]

No

Only your brain

No calculator no axioms beyond ZFC

[solid latch]

wat

whta does that even mean?

[grand quartz]

Hello !
Does someone knows if it exists a non-programmable graphing calculator ?
If yes which one ?

[solid latch]

can i even find that symbol in a calculator?

[fair mural]

isn’t this just aleph 1

assuming that aleph null = N

in the von neumann sense

[solid latch]

🙂 🤚

[swift sinew]

You might’ve broken a rule there bud

[next schooner]

!!!

[fair mural]

what

[fair mural]

was i right?

[swift sinew]

Gamma said you can’t use any axioms outside of ZFC

[fair mural]

idk zfc axioms lol

[neat frost]

This is assuming the continuum hypothesis I think

Which is independent of ZFC

[deep mango]

[neat frost]

Why cry ryc?

You need your nappie?

[deep mango]

It's only 11am

I'm not gonna nap

[neat frost]

Are you hungwy? Tiwewd?

Thiwsty?

Aww awe you a wiw bit cwanky?

[deep mango]

Why are you talking like that to me.

Im never cranky

[neat frost]

Idk I find it amusing

[neat frost]

Lies and slander

[deep mango]

It's your furry instincts

Who am I slandering

myself?

I'm only 3 hours into this 5 and a half hour bbcanada podcast

[fair mural]

what lol

i literally said |P(N)| = aleph 1 basically

[neat frost]

Yes

[fair mural]

i’m assuming facts

[neat frost]

That’s assuming continuum

[fair mural]

no it’s not

[neat frost]

Yes it is

[hushed turret]

|P(n)|=|R|
the continuum hypothesis states that |R| = aleph_1

[fair mural]

what

i thought it was defined that way

[neat frost]

Aleph_1 is defined as ordinals something something something

[fair mural]

something stupid

set theory is dumb

[next schooner]

What kind of IDIOT thinks |R| is aleph_1

[fair mural]

shut up josh rat

[next schooner]

lmao I thought the same I only was corrected like five minutes ago

[hushed turret]

happens

[modest rune]

Aleph 1 is the smallest cardinal larger than N

the continuum hypothesis states that this is in fact P(N)

[modest rune]

We can show this is well defined by taking the smallest uncountable ordinal and forgetting the order

[grand quartz]

Hello !
Does someone knows if it exists a non-programmable graphing calculator ?
If yes which one ?

[modest rune]

I would just google it I think most users here probably don't use graphing calculators very often

[grand quartz]

Oh ok, but i don't find anything fitting what i'm searching for on Google :/

[modest rune]

then there probably is not one

it would be weird to build such a thing honestly

like, if you're going to make a graphing calculator why would you not make it programmable

[grand quartz]

Honestly i don't even know aha

[sick burrow]

Maybe because some exams require it not to be?

[modest rune]

are there exams that allow graphing calculators but not programmable ones

all the ones i know require like

TIs or similar

or they require very basic calculators

[sick burrow]

Idk there are a lot of stupid exams out there

[cyan goblet]

yes, e.g. ACT and SAT

AP exams as well

[modest rune]

Since when?

[neat lintel]

oof

[cyan goblet]

ti-84 is a widespread popular choice. i use a ti-nspire 2 (NOT CAS!) which i find to be nice to use

[modest rune]

I used a TI on my calc BC exam for sure

many moons ago

[cyan goblet]

TIs are graphing calculators, no?

[modest rune]

Yes but they are also programmable

[cyan goblet]

oh i see what you're saying

they make you clear your calculator before you walk in

[modest rune]

yeah

thats normal

kinda fucked

but normal

[cyan goblet]

idk it makes sense to me

[modest rune]

it makes sense but also like

people put a lot of effort into programming TIs

it would suck to forget to make a backup hahah

[cyan goblet]

true

[modest rune]

someone like programmed a mario clone iirc

[cyan goblet]

though i guess if you walk into an exam room without making a backup, it's on you

yeah people do all sorts of stuff with ti's

[sick burrow]

I want to write a story involving ordinals

Or run a ttrpg campaign involving them

[rose dock]

no they don't

CollegeBoard's official AP website states "you don’t need to clear your calculators’ memories before or after the exam."

[hoary yoke]

I guess the last interval unaccounted for is during the exam. To ask a different way, are you required to clear your calculators memories at least once, at any point?

[rose dock]

no

I've taken the SAT and multiple AP exams and never once been required to clear my calculator

my AP Stats teacher exploits this fact and loads info into all of her students' calculators

[hoary yoke]

I kind of figured, your quote kind of insinuated it, but like, just wanted to double check

[ancient flame]

yeah me neither

[ancient flame]

wait really LMAO

[sacred arch]

Between e, pi, and the golden ratio, I believe e has the least toxic fanbase. Discuss.

[leaden torrent]

no

[sacred arch]

Don't think I've ever met a toxic e enjoyer

Pi has the largest and unsurprisingly most toxic fanbase, and phi has a somewhat smaller but oftentimes very toxic fanbase who attributes things to phi that just aren't there

I personally really like phi but mostly because it essentially has only one property that happens to result in it having a lot of them

[next schooner]

phi is shit

[sacred arch]

I mean most people attribute the wrong things to it but I do actually enjoy the properties it actually has

So yeah I blame the fanbase on that one

Like while pi has one main idea behind it, it kinda tends to come out of nowhere and it's just a bit harder to play with on its own

e can be similar, but both of them do have properties you can play around with

With phi, while people do start overstating its use and attribute some nonsense to it, is really easy to play with.

So yeah I simultaneously think phi is overrated and that it's one of my favorite constants

[next schooner]

Feigenbaum is my fave

[sacred arch]

That's fair enough

I feel like phi pi and e are the three that pop out of nowhere and everyone knows about

Also I hate the term "the golden ratio"

e is probably least toxic tho

[proven fractal]

I totally fucking agree

e has the least degenerate fans

No discussion

i just agree

[sacred arch]

All 3 are interesting but way too many toxic people in pi and phi

[fresh oriole]

ironically, thinking people are toxic and degenerate for being interested in numbers is more toxic than anything those people ever say

[proven fractal]

No dude

[sacred arch]

Well I don't judge them for being interested

[proven fractal]

it's just they aren't nice with their opinions

and sometimes have no actual sound opinions

[sacred arch]

But sometimes they can have very narrow views about their preferred constant without truly understanding what makes them interesting

Like I celebrate pi day like the next nerd but I feel like many pi enjoyers have only a base understanding of number theory, often focusing only on the digits and not it's properties.

It's not bad to enjoy pi but any fanbase can be toxic, even in math.

The way people attribute things to phi is a lot like many toxic fanbases, really. Almost frighteningly similar when you think about it.

Yes, I love Undertale, but there comes a point where it's ridiculous, please stop attributing random stuff to Undertale that's unrelated (as an example)

[proven fractal]

The diameter of peter griffin's asshole is related to the golden ratio OMG OMG.

[sacred arch]

Average phi fan

[proven fractal]

You know

I missed when discussion channels actually discussed something

[vivid halo]

[fresh oriole]

this... isn't a discussion?

[sacred arch]

I mean they may be speaking generally

[mortal igloo]

Tell me more about fanbases for specific numbers

[proven fractal]

Well yeah but the topic is really meh so idk

[sacred arch]

Well I feel like the 3 main constants I just mentioned have the biggest fanbases

[mortal igloo]

Why do they form?

[sacred arch]

Where my root 2 fans at

[swift sinew]

Icy trashing on modern e-theory

[mortal igloo]

With enough mathematical maturity surely they'll realize where these constants stand in the universe is not very mystical

[sacred arch]

I do honestly think that like most fanbases, they form from just being interested in a thing

Like these things start innocently enough but

[next schooner]

1 is the best constant

[modest rune]

The only reason pi day matters is as an excuse to eat pie

[sacred arch]

Epic

[modest rune]

Any other take is wrong

[sacred arch]

Fax

[fresh oriole]

have you considered that there's actually no such thing as "mathematical constant fanbases" and you've really just formed impressions from a small sample size of comments you've seen people make?

[swift sinew]

y'know, i'd be hesitant to call the identity function constant

[modest rune]

I have seen people foam at the mouth over tau vs pi

[deep mango]

I like pi day because we used to dress up in math costumes and some of them were great.

[mortal igloo]

Actually it's not unreasonable there are groups of people out there dedicated to a mathematical constant

[proven fractal]

Well it doesn't have to be a sub reddit to count as a fanbase

[deep mango]

Yeah someone got really in my face about this and got a little bit of spittle on me

[sacred arch]

Technically a constant is just a real number.

[modest rune]

Tau supporters don’t even realize that tau plays a far more important role in mathematics already

As the deformation parameter of synthetic homotopy

[deep mango]

He's doing very well for himself now

And I hope he does well for himself far far away from me

[winter hinge]

Could anyone explain what reputation points are for in this server ?

[swift sinew]

this is quite the take my dude

[modest rune]

Literally no one can explain that

[sacred arch]

Tau fans are alright but the difference between pi and Tau is kinda just arbitrary

[leaden torrent]

the only thing more pathetic than the fact that y'all care about "mathematical constant fanbases" (even ironically) is the fact that i care enough about how stupid this is to send a message here.

[proven fractal]

homo what

[mortal igloo]

I strongly disagree. Tau is a point in the upper half plane.

[frozen merlin]

everyone knows tau is nondimensionalised time

[winter hinge]

Why do people bother giving them then ? Asking cause I just got one

[next schooner]

wait wtf is a reputation point

[winter hinge]

It's like every mechanic in this server is some obscure thing whose inner workings are kept secret

[leaden torrent]

reputation points are an old holdover

i dont know why they still exist

but they do

[frozen merlin]

@swift sinew is this how to communicate you can't decide between and

[swift sinew]

its an emote from the physics server so you know where that take belongs

[dense belfry]

[sacred arch]

I personally don't think there's too much of an important difference between pi and Tau, fight all you want but you'll probably have to multiply it by a constant anyways

[next schooner]

there are good category-theoretic justifications for all this server's inner workings

[swift sinew]

but i do enjoy this interpretation

[dense belfry]

The server meta is extensively documented on the nlab

[winter hinge]

Maybe but they're still secret

[winter hinge]

Do you have a link ?

[dense belfry]

[frozen merlin]

i'm not taking shit from someone who's in the physics server

really a divisive comment

[dense belfry]

It's almost like the only way to learn how a community works is to engage with the community

[modest rune]

They exist bc you’re not allowed to get rid of them before I’m top 10

How the fuck am I not top 10

[dense belfry]

Or I guess that's the best way

Not the only way

[next schooner]

how do you give a reputation point

[sacred arch]

What if I made one of those slander videos about enjoyers of different constants

Idk how you make those but it's be funny

[dense belfry]

I think t!rep

In bots

[winter hinge]

Surely not anyone can do that ?

[dense belfry]

Anyone can do that

Haven't thought about rep points in years

They are a tatsu thing not a server thing

I wonder what my tatsu rank is now

[swift sinew]

you need to be verified

as josh and i just learned

[sacred arch]

I feel like many fairly young pi fans (elementary and middle school) probably just like irrational numbers. Like when you're in elementary and try to find specific sets of numbers in pi? Nothing against it and a good way to get kids interested in numbers but just an observation.

Sorry sometimes I'm bad at ending my conversations

[frozen merlin]

make the video

[dense belfry]

Verification just means email verification

Nothing too crazy

I think kids can be taught about more math than they are

Like there's a lot of shit to talk about

idk why we spend so much time on the stuff we do

I feel like we kind of baby kids

With what we expose them too

[mortal igloo]

You mean at school?

[sleek wing]

yeah the education system vastly underestimates what kids can learn imo

[fresh oriole]

you're talking about young kids who hardly know any math and for whom pi is the most interesting number they've heard of

[dense belfry]

Yeah icy

[fresh oriole]

that doesn't make them members of a toxic "pi fanbase"

[dense belfry]

Like literally there is 0 exposure to anything

Which is actually crazy

[sacred arch]

I wasn't criticizing them really

They're kids of course they don't know anything

[mortal igloo]

With what administrators and math teachers and educators currently know, it's probably not easy to add "fun" math subjects like graph theory on a national level

[dense belfry]

Yes

[neat lintel]

Does anyone have a good calc 3 book?

[mortal igloo]

Teaching calculus in 8th grade is more within their reach

[dense belfry]

I guess now we have online resources there isn't such a barrier?

idk

I feel like we're in a very transitionary period in math education

[proven fractal]

Yeah the math they teach for 6th graders in middle east is like 8th grade for USA or something probably 9th grade even USA educational system is a joke.

[swift sinew]

i mean you could have a survey/exploration class as an elective

[proven fractal]

Yeah don't ask me how are they the dominant force.

[dense belfry]

When I was growing up everyone was bitching about how you're not going to have a calculator everywhere you go

And then it turns out you do

And a phone in your pocket

Which let's you look anything up

[mortal igloo]

20 years ago: "You won't have the internet in your pocket, you know"
Now:

[dense belfry]

And I don't think education has figured out how to deal with that

And changing a system like this is really hard

[mortal igloo]

Education is moving extremely slowly yes

[dense belfry]

Especially when a lot of people think they know shit about education

And are just reactionary

[proven fractal]

20 years ago: Emma discussing the educational system doesn't exist she can't scare you
Now:

[dense belfry]

And it's so tied to success in life or whatever

[mortal igloo]

:blushysully:

[next schooner]

There's a lot of interesting educational studies being piloted in the UK that are investigating how to leverage phones etc in a mathematics classroom environment

[proven fractal]

Honestly for a system that is hundreds of years old there is no way they can make radical changes to the SAME system which is why they sorted out to inventing a lot of "creative" and new systems

[velvet dagger]

I feel bad re educational stuff

[dense belfry]

And there were reactionary backlashes every time

[velvet dagger]

Most people think they can successfully dunning kruger like me

[dense belfry]

Without even engaging

Like there were problems

Obviously

[velvet dagger]

But they can't, instead they just get it wrong

[dense belfry]

But the backlash was independent of the problems

[next schooner]

reading people's math education hot takes is a favourite hobby of mine

[dense belfry]

Largely

[neat lintel]

does no one have a good calc 3 book 😢

[sacred arch]

I'm not sure I've ever been actually taught why e is interesting in school, I only really learned why we use e when I selftaught myself calculus with 3blue1brown's series

[velvet dagger]

I shouldn't let people onto the fact that I just intuit education really well

[dense belfry]

I don't think anything I'm saying is a hot take

idk

[next schooner]

not referring to you Emma

[velvet dagger]

Oh Josh's thing sounded separate from yours

[dense belfry]

Oh sure

[wild lantern]

Pick any standard calculus book. Stewart, Larson, Briggs etc.

[velvet dagger]

@neat lintel how's your linear algebra?

[next schooner]

I think you're absolutely right

[velvet dagger]

IN general I'm team linear algebra before calc 3 tbh

[neat lintel]

I took calc 1 and calc 2

I have never done it

oh okay

[velvet dagger]

Or integrated

[wild lantern]

LA before calc 3 would be helpful

[dense belfry]

I'm team decouple math from academic success

[sleek wing]

the fact LA isn't before calc 3 never fails to shock me

[next schooner]

Integrating technology into the classroom is an open question into which there is a lot of work being done

[dense belfry]

Yeah that makes sense Josh

[next schooner]

There are also a lot of issues related to cyberbullying, etc.

[proven fractal]

Wait what

[neat lintel]

my highschool does calc 1, calc 2 then calc 3

[proven fractal]

Why

[next schooner]

So it's a very tricky one

[velvet dagger]

Lots of places do it

[dense belfry]

I should read papers on that

[winter hinge]

Algebra should be taught so much more before people do proofs. It's so damn useful

[velvet dagger]

But it's not great

[dense belfry]

It's so weird I can read papers on anything I want

I was too scared too until recently

[next schooner]

One of the biggest safeguarding concerns in UK schools at the moment is stuff like upskirting

[sleek wing]

wtaf

[velvet dagger]

They basically do this weird makeshift linear algebra, teach you barely enough to ... wtf josh

ANyway they do this makeshift linear algebra where they teach you about lines and planes and whatnot, pretty much barely enough to make the words in calc 3 make a bit of sense

[neat lintel]

Why does my school do this

[next schooner]

I mean I can't possibly quantify its prevalence and I'm only really citing anecdote here, but my wife is a secondary math teacher and by extension we know a lot of teachers

[proven fractal]

Jeez what kind of highschool is that

[next schooner]

It's certainly something that's raised way more than you'd like it to be

[mortal igloo]

High school should get rid of most procedural calculation problems in favor of sequential reasoning problems

[velvet dagger]

Most places do this. Most high schools and a lot of colleges are very bad at their jobs

[neat lintel]

I am on the advanced math track, but it is a US school so prob behind europe and asia

[mortal igloo]

That's one of my alter ego's hot takes on education

[neat lintel]

like senior year we take calc 3 or multivariable they call it

[velvet dagger]

Tbh I never learned multi too well I just kinda wing it

[proven fractal]

I thought calc 3 was for grad students

[dense belfry]

Sloth I do that too and it hurts my confidence

[winter hinge]

I'm from France. What math did you do in the first 2 years ? If you'd like to compare

[dense belfry]

At some point I need to convince myself it's actually easy

[velvet dagger]

I remember once I TA'd a calc 3 section

[dense belfry]

Because it is

[velvet dagger]

I was given a worksheet

[sleek wing]

calc 3 is for first year undergrads at the latest

[ancient flame]

first year????

[velvet dagger]

Wew: in US possibly second year

[neat frost]

Wdym “at the latest”

[velvet dagger]

Not everyone does calc in high school

[neat lintel]

I did Algebra 2, Pre calc and calc 1

then Calc bc

[proven fractal]

[dense belfry]

But I had bad experiences in calculus classes

[neat frost]

👀

[neat lintel]

then multivariable

[slow coral]

the sun is training them young these days huh

[velvet dagger]

I didn't really learn calc well in high school

[dense belfry]

So I have weird anxiety around it

[sleek wing]

you speak English don't yo?

[neat frost]

No I speak Italian

[ancient flame]

wew is weird

[velvet dagger]

So in college first year I just redid single variable calculus but with proofs

[next schooner]

Yeah this has always been an interesting one. The problem is that the scope of sequential reasoning problems is unfathomably broader than simple calculation questions, and therefore is very difficult for teachers to effectively plan for, especially within the value framework of a modern adaptive pedagogy.

[neat lintel]

wait is calc bc the same as calc 2

that is what my school says

[next schooner]

Not that it isn't something that should be sought, of course

[proven fractal]

Yeah but he is my bestfriend btw

[sleek wing]

how so

[velvet dagger]

Calc AB = Calc 1
Calc BC = Calc 1 + 2

[sleek wing]

absolutely not

[ancient flame]

bruh

[proven fractal]

Right wew?

[dense belfry]

My perception in terms of nationwide systems is that training teachers is really hard

[proven fractal]

Give me time to actually ask dammit

[dense belfry]

And most teachers are not very good at math

[proven fractal]

WE ARE BESTFRIENDS period

[mortal igloo]

Makes sense. What's value framework of a modern adaptive pedagogy?

[next schooner]

Now this is true

[velvet dagger]

My hot take is that rather than try to train teachers

[neat lintel]

Is my school goofy for doing calc 3 senior year instead of linear algebra

[mortal igloo]

It sounds like a backwards thing if it's not paving the way for sequential reasoning

[velvet dagger]

You should make the job of teaching more attractive

[dense belfry]

Yeah that's true sloth

[velvet dagger]

And then just demand higher standards in terms of them knowing what they're teaching

You may need to train them in terms of like

Pedagogy and all

[dense belfry]

I think this is another not hot take though

[sleek wing]

all of my maths teachers in hs had masters degrees iirc
so I'm not sure how much that applies here

[proven fractal]

Isn't that what actually happens in practice?

[velvet dagger]

I have no idea how good pedagogy research is at the moment

[neat lintel]

teachers in my state earn 100 k

what are you talking about

and get benefits

[ancient flame]

higher pay, more motivating factors like a reward system or fringe benefits, etc would be helpful

[velvet dagger]

In America at large

[ancient flame]

100k?????

[velvet dagger]

Teachers are not good at their job

[sleek wing]

I'm calling bullshit on 100k

[dense belfry]

In the us perception of the importance of teaching is insane

[proven fractal]

Privileged 😡

[neat lintel]

nah

[dense belfry]

Like the amount Texas pays

[neat lintel]

I have salary list

I don't want to dox mysekf

[velvet dagger]

100k makes sense for the more expensive states

[neat lintel]

though

[dense belfry]

Is ridiculously low

[neat lintel]

who is trust worthy

[velvet dagger]

Oh I was gonna say

[neat lintel]

I can prove it

[velvet dagger]

Texas is actually not the worst imo

[neat lintel]

It is a public school

[sleek wing]

me

[dense belfry]

Remember the meme with "if we raise the minimum wage they'll make more than teachers"

Or something

[neat lintel]

okay I will send don't dox me

[velvet dagger]

Or at least my district in Texas is overall not considered a very good one, it's Dallas area

[ancient flame]

famous last words

[proven fractal]

You mean like just school salary?

[next schooner]

Mm perhaps I didn't explain it clearly. Adaptive pedagogy is the new focus in the UK, and it largely consists of the ideas of enforcing inclusivity in all aspects of education. In mathematics in particular, there is a large emphasis on tailoring worksheets and content not just to the strength and requirements of individual classes, but ideally individual students. It's a very "noble" pursuit imo, but is ultimately very difficult to accomplish as it can really increase the workload associated with planning.

[winter hinge]

I'm ending my first year post high school now and we started from 0 again and proved every damn thing. From set theory to number theory and arithmetic, to complex numbers and combinatorics, to groups, rings, fields, vector spaces, algebras to series, real analysis, matrices, more linalg up to euclidian spaces and then probabilties and stats. In the first year

[velvet dagger]

And I think high school teachers, at least mid career, are frequently in the 50k-70k zone

Alpha probably lives in one of those states where 100k is enough to buy like

2 donuts

[proven fractal]

2 donuts and 2 cops

[velvet dagger]

Actually the fact that Alpha goes to a school with a calc 3 class

[mortal igloo]

Hm I see. It's weird this is the main focus right now given that the content still needs a huge rewriting though

[proven fractal]

yeah

[velvet dagger]

Suggests it's not an ordinary one

Most high schools don't offer beyond Calc BC

[dense belfry]

Oh so another weird thing is in the Orthodox Jewish world education is really important but they heavily prioritize the Hebrew education and minimize the secular education. A lot of schools literally hire kids right out of high school with no experience to teach

[velvet dagger]

(Calc 2)

[dense belfry]

And some other schools hire randoms with just a bachelor's degree

With no teaching experience

[ancient flame]

you can do calc 3 as a dual enrollment with a local college

[neat lintel]

No I go to a normal public highschool lol

[hushed turret]

tbh i cant say ive really experienced this

[dense belfry]

I know a lot of people who have those kinds of jobs and it's surreal

[ancient flame]

@neat lintel do you take it through a college?

[neat lintel]

no

[hushed turret]

my school is kind of weird though

[ancient flame]

damn

[dense belfry]

Like they act like it's normal

[neat lintel]

highschool course but no credit is given

[velvet dagger]

Ordinary as far as America at large definitely not

[ancient flame]

how many students are in the class

[neat lintel]

and then I got to take it at a community college

[proven fractal]

Why tf am i here discussing Teacher's slave wages when I should be studying instead

[next schooner]

I disagree. The educational gap between socioeconomic groups in the UK is extremely vast, and there is (in my opinion) a case to be made that it's a much more pressing issue that the lack of social mobility be addressed in schools than merely implementing a slightly better math curriculum

[proven fractal]

Le procrastination

[dense belfry]

I actually knew the vice principal of one of those schools a while ago (we haven't talked in like a year) and he hired those sort of people and thought it was okay

[winter hinge]

Same

[dense belfry]

And when I asked him about it he acted like it didn't matter

[proven fractal]

@winter hinge Let's go crash them books 😎

[neat lintel]

@sleek wing can affirm teachers in california are not given slave wages

they actually high mean in my city

[velvet dagger]

Exactly

[next schooner]

Yeah that doesn't surprise me. These ideas are relatively new and have only been taught to new teachers in the last 3-4 years or so.

[velvet dagger]

California lol

Like 100k+ is not gonna happen in most states by far

[neat lintel]

California unions are way too strong unironically

we can't get rid of bad teachers

[dense belfry]

The polarization is insane

With this shit

[neat lintel]

it costs too much to lay them off

[velvet dagger]

Yeah I heard teacher's unions aren't the best rn

[proven fractal]

What if you work at a car wash and sell meth? think bout that

[velvet dagger]

I meant in teaching

If you wanna work 6 figures and don't have an education drive trucks

[neat lintel]

Senior teachers take priority over younger ones'

[velvet dagger]

Unironically

[neat lintel]

so many bad old teachers teach

[next schooner]

Teacher unions are a fucking godsend in the UK

[dense belfry]

People use dirty tricks to force teachers out before they get pension stuff

[next schooner]

Weird they're so dysfunctional in the states

[dense belfry]

It's crazy

[next schooner]

Though I'd rather there be slightly dysfunctional unions than none at all

[mortal igloo]

The main way socioeconomic status right now affects math performance is in the amount of background knowledge and training, right? Another hot take I have is that this is due to the main curriculum delivered in a public school being a version of math that is hard to make sense of, and the high socioeconomic status students learn a version that makes more sense from their parents and/or tutors

[swift sinew]

not too weird when you remember that the states fucking hates poor people

[next schooner]

based

[sleek wing]

rather based indeed

[dense belfry]

That's because being poor is a moral failing

[proven fractal]

My highschool teachers are dinosaurs with BA at best they studied in the soviet union like 50 years ago probably

[neat lintel]

I don't think teacher quality is very good in the US

[dense belfry]

Russian professors are lit

I love that shit

[mortal igloo]

(There's obviously effects from home life and other stuff)

[velvet dagger]

Overall no. US education system is very weirdly stratified

[ancient flame]

most teachers need a masters degree

[velvet dagger]

It's not a national level thing so much as local level

[strong sphinx]

How did it go?

[neat lintel]

Would I be behind for a math major

[velvet dagger]

Oh yeah stabulo I forgot

[neat lintel]

if I only did linear algebra

and calc 3

[velvet dagger]

So I TA'd a calc 3 class

[dense belfry]

Wow I was about to say something really deranged

[neat lintel]

by the end of next year

[dense belfry]

[sleek wing]

well now I want to know what it is

[proven fractal]

Say it

[dense belfry]

No

[strong sphinx]

I was waiting on that story lol.

[proven fractal]

CMON

[velvet dagger]

And I walk into the classroom, the person who's in charge of curricula/TAing gives me the worksheet

[sleek wing]

such a babyrager move

[dense belfry]

It was a sexual thing about Russian teachers

[velvet dagger]

It's on spherical coordinates and cylindrical coordinates

And I'm just like

What

What is that

[proven fractal]

I would send it to my teachers

[dense belfry]

I stopped myself

[velvet dagger]

Like I don't wanna be on my phone in front of the class Googling these words

So I just walk up and I'm like

[proven fractal]

Oh yeah Le sexy broken english accent

[velvet dagger]

Alright the worksheet today is on spherical and cylindrical coordinates

[sleek wing]

wait hold old were you dami

[velvet dagger]

This was a few months ago

I do not know calc 3

I never took it

[neat lintel]

how no calc 3 and number theory

huh

[winter hinge]

Coordinates are basix algebra no ?

[velvet dagger]

So I just walk in front and say, let's first remind ourselves what the definition of spherical and cylindrical coordinates are

And they dictate to me on the board

[strong sphinx]

I always assumed everyone in America did that stuff.

[velvet dagger]

And now I'm like

Ah hah

[next schooner]

I don't think it's possible to fully quantify the effects of socioeconomic status on educational outcomes. Additionally, I'm coming at this from a UK perspective. The UK and US are similar in many ways but there are very substantial differences in the demographic makeup of the economically deprived in the UK and US, and that's just to start. Ultimately, however, when you control for parental education level etc you still have a significant variance between the most deprived and the most affluent students.

[velvet dagger]

That's what that means

[proven fractal]

Lucky guy

[neat lintel]

TA or like boomer proffesor

[velvet dagger]

And then I have them split into groups and work on problems

[proven fractal]

I have a huge crush on donald knuth

[velvet dagger]

And I ask one of the groups to "describe the thought process to me"

[proven fractal]

he is so cute

[dense belfry]

I should probably delete

[velvet dagger]

And they start talking

And I'm ust like

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

So that's how that works

[strong sphinx]

Genius move.

[dense belfry]

Warrior bad news

[swift sinew]

russian profs do be kinda cute tho

[velvet dagger]

Stabulo: that's how you're supposed to do discussion sections here anyway

[hushed turret]

dami that sounds like a skit

[proven fractal]

What

[hushed turret]

and it worked lmao

[proven fractal]

Is he dead or something

[dense belfry]

Donald knuth just died

Yeah

[velvet dagger]

Oh it totally worked

[proven fractal]

Wait what

[velvet dagger]

Like at the end one of the students came to me and was like

[strong sphinx]

If I want to learn anything it's just me and a 60 year old textbook.

[velvet dagger]

Hey when are your office hours?

[modest rune]

I have also never taken calc 3

[next schooner]

Ultimately, however, I think the easy and frequent opinion amongst mathematicians that a better curriculum will necessarily result in better outcomes is just naive and completely fails to consider the myriad other sociocultural and economic structural factors that influence students

[modest rune]

They tried to make me ta calc 3

And I refused lol

[proven fractal]

Google says he is alive

[velvet dagger]

And I'm like sorry fam I'm just subbing for your TA I don't actually know calc 3 lol

[strong sphinx]

There is none. 😅

[dense belfry]

Wait maybe I'm misremembering

Who died really recently

[velvet dagger]

I just figured out what cylindrical/spherical coordinates are less than an hour ago

[neat lintel]

why does no one take calc 3 is it useless?

[sleek wing]

me

[dense belfry]

Oops

[velvet dagger]

One of my most clutch moments

[dense belfry]

Yeah I googled to confirm and I'm also not seeing anything

[neat lintel]

my school teaching me junk brah

[dense belfry]

My bad

[proven fractal]

Oh great he is alive

[modest rune]

It’s annoying

It’s very useful

[strong sphinx]

When you know a lot of the stuff around a subject learning it will be immediate I bet.

[proven fractal]

It would be weird if he died after I started studying CS

[swift sinew]

bruh

[mortal igloo]

Why would controlling for parental education levels do anything? The differences in availability of tutors is not controlled by that

[neat lintel]

My calc bc teacher keeps trying to get me to do a math degree

[swift sinew]

knuth died last november didnt he

[dense belfry]

Goddamnit CV

[mortal igloo]

Also, is this post-control significant variance less or equal than the pre-control variance?

[proven fractal]

Yeah the learning process will be reinforced which is called schema I think

[dense belfry]

That was why I thought that

[proven fractal]

Rip whoever that was, must have been a great guy

[dense belfry]

That's what I get for trusting CV

[winter hinge]

There was a funy xkcd with Knuth but I wouldn't be able to find it

[neat frost]

KNUTH IS NOT DEAD

DO NOT JOKE

[dense belfry]

[neat frost]

KNUTH WILL LIVE FOREVER

[fresh oriole]

Emma probably meant https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/technology/david-walden-dead.html

[deep mango]

version pi....

[dense belfry]

No CV posted that Knuth died

A couple of days ago

And I believed him

[neat frost]

Knuth will get to tex version pi

[fresh oriole]

oh

[neat frost]

It is inevitable

[proven fractal]

Is cv like a trusted source?

[dense belfry]

Without verifying

No

[deep mango]

Lol

[proven fractal]

Okay why would you believe him

[velvet dagger]

Emma: rookie mistake

[sleek wing]

he did say he heard it from chill tbf

[proven fractal]

A good learning experience ngl

[dense belfry]

Because that's not something people usually lie about

idk

[neat frost]

Stop blaming CV

[velvet dagger]

"he did say he heard it from chill tbf"
That doesn't make it better

[neat frost]

We were all bamboozled

[mortal igloo]

The curriculum definitely matters, for example, right now we aren't even testing fluency of logical reasoning as much as testing ability to practice and remember calculations, which a tutor would help a lot for

[neat frost]

I hope the person who posted it originally is suffering rn

[strong sphinx]

This is happening to me a lot lately. I don't know all the subset, proper subset terms etc. since it was never taught to me but I can normally figure it out using other knowledge. I feel this stuff is a big gate keeper for me but I don't know where to learn about it.

[mortal igloo]

In some sense the measures that are being used are completely wrong

[proven fractal]

Yeah like Mark zuckerberg just died (do not celebrate please)

[mortal igloo]

simply because what we're measuring is not representative of what we're looking for with respect to "Mathematical reasoning in a 21st century world"

[dense belfry]

I did Google immediately after saying it

To confirm

So I'm not too upset

[lament edge]

what would you recommend as a topic to write a math high school "thesis" about?

[velvet dagger]

RSA encryption?

[neat frost]

You think Knuth has discord?

[dense belfry]

I guess I should have googled before posting

Ah well

[velvet dagger]

RSA encryption sounds like a good high school math project imo

[neat frost]

We should invite DEK to this server to give a talk

[proven fractal]

It's funny how people who invented the computer have trouble navigating modern computers

[winter hinge]

One guy asked "is this a correct spanning tree" I said "well what's the definition" and went on like I knew

[hushed turret]

yeah rsa is good i wrote an essay on that

[velvet dagger]

Stabulo probably pick up some discrete math or just wing it as you go

[dense belfry]

Okay I drank energy drink and installed air conditioner and it really changed the vibes in my apartment

[hushed turret]

relatively self-contained

with clear applications

[dense belfry]

Apparently the heat really affects things

[winter hinge]

Personally I'm working on Bézier curves but it's much more open ended

[neat frost]

Do not make fun of DEK.

[dense belfry]

I need to install one in my room now

[velvet dagger]

Damn I really do have very good intuition on educational stuff

[strong sphinx]

I might actually know what a spanning tree is funnily lol.

[mortal igloo]

Any thoughts on josh's and my back and forth conversation?

[velvet dagger]

Honestly I'd prob be a master psychologist if I entered that field

[proven fractal]

Schema Neuroscience Metacognition look these up and move on from there

[strong sphinx]

I've been doing stuff of Stieltjes integrals and my book is the best I can find. I look at Rudin etc. and I think that author must be the most over rated person ever.

[dense belfry]

Oh Dami how deranged do I have to go to get in trouble

I'm curious now

[proven fractal]

I'm not I'm just sayin yk (I would never dare to)

[dense belfry]

In terms of my posts

[neat frost]

Do not just say. Vile.

[proven fractal]

Okay sorry

[velvet dagger]

Imagine you're someone else reading your posts. Would you decide that it's off tune enough to halt the flow of conversation and call in a mod?

[dense belfry]

Oh okay

Cool

Good to know

[velvet dagger]

If it's kinda hmm but sorta ignorable then sure

Icy: so you guys were talking about a few things lemme read

[proven fractal]

Big brother is watching you.

[dense belfry]

I tend to police what I post a lot I think

Maybe I'll ease up on that a little

[proven fractal]

Maybe more than a little

that's what I think

[dense belfry]

Thanks warrior

[proven fractal]

You are welcome Emma

[neat frost]

I have no filter on discord

[dense belfry]

We know slurp

[proven fractal]

Now i gtg finish my self-assigned homework

[neat frost]

We… what?

[velvet dagger]

I don't police myself at all

[neat frost]

Uh huh

[dense belfry]

[proven fractal]

Yeah fuck the police

[velvet dagger]

I simply am a kind person at the core

[winter hinge]

Says the police

[neat frost]

It’s cuz I don’t talk irl

[dense belfry]

You are top 5 kind people

[velvet dagger]

Truuuuuuu

[dense belfry]

Simply the kindest

[proven fractal]

Me when I see a person who is 1% less White

[velvet dagger]

I'd say this is also me shitposting but after seeing Ivory............................................

jkjk

[neat frost]

I’m the #1 kindest

[velvet dagger]

Fuck you slurp you're a dork

[hushed turret]

lmfao

[neat frost]

Fuck you asshat

[velvet dagger]

Kindness moment ^^

[hushed turret]

such a sweetie

[winter hinge]

Lovely

[dense belfry]

I think I have a kind rep

Except to some people

[neat frost]

Emma is always mean to me

[velvet dagger]

I think irl I'm way more in your face than I am on discord

[neat frost]

[velvet dagger]

Prob because I talk loud

[winter hinge]

You'd be much closer for sure

[neat frost]

People who are sociable irl scare me

[velvet dagger]

And a bit fast

[dense belfry]

I talk very fast

Ultra can confirm

[velvet dagger]

Brofibration I remember once described me as like

Ranking professors in tier lists and shouting at the top of my lungs "X is a C tier advisor!"

I do not remember this

But apparently it happened

[neat frost]

[dense belfry]

That's amazing

At Madison