serious-discussion

[undone beacon]

Yes, and there have been results

[true zinc]

string theory noises

[umbral reef]

What do you mean by this, like some kind of hypercommodity?

[ashen mauve]

It's one of Ted's quotes, what modern society does, is that they refuse to fix the root problem and only care about the symptoms, the example given was that instead of fixing the conditions that make people depressed, the best that modern society can do is give people anti-depressant drugs. I don't know how effective anti-depressant drugs though.

Similarly, it was said:

• Imagine a individual that has bad headaches because he keeps banging his head against the wall.

• The individual takes painkillers so that he could keep banging his head against the wall without feeling headaches.

• But solution to stop banging your head against the wall is not to take painkillers. The solution to stop the headache is to stop banging your head against the wall. Otherwise you will be introduced to worse symptoms, such as brain damage.

That is what was called the technological trap.

[undone beacon]

Ted.k was a schizophrenic depressed guy who killed people

[umbral reef]

The part about your life being better or worse

[ashen mauve]

Have you ever heard of the phrase "seperate the art from the artist"

[umbral reef]

Yes, we all know he was cool. You don’t have to keep glazing him.

[undone beacon]

Is everyone here a depressed communist like what

[upbeat basin]

If anything I would say its an argument against human nature. There are many issues we are well aware off, but once we grow distance enough to it, we tend to just ignore it for our own benefit 😅

[true zinc]

Basically

[glossy marlin]

fusion has been thirty years away for, idk, a hundred and thirty years.
better designs for engines have been around for a long, better fuels have existed for a while, better generators are being researched, getting energy from the air or sun has been an option for decades. the change was always "coming soon" and never came because of capitalism.

[ashen mauve]

If the worst person who genocided 10 million people said that 1+1 is 2, that does not mean that 1+1 is no longer 2.

[umbral reef]

I am not depressed. I actually don’t have any serious mental health issues at all. I can’t speak for anyone else in here, though,

[true zinc]

This is a fallacy to my understanding, I just forget what it's called

[undone beacon]

Yea ad hominem or smtn

[umbral reef]

Yep

[ashen mauve]

Yes, he was the one who did the ad hominem

[undone beacon]

I was jk, Ted's philosophy is terrible for many other reasons

[umbral reef]

It’s the same Reason People drive Volkswagens, even though we won the war 🤷‍♂️

[upbeat basin]

Unfortunately controlling and using resources always goes through people that maintain power by using them. Reasonable solutions would have to win against people that have the power to make it happen. That will be very hard.

[ashen mauve]

His obervations was correct, but his solution wasn't. Ellul also said the same things, but he didn't offer a solution.

The only reason I like to quote Ted more is because his writing is more understandable, Ellul's book is more for academics, it was hard to read, at least for me.

[umbral reef]

This is really a great point, to my mind this is the absolute crux of the entire issue.

Environmental concerns, much less climate change, simply cannot be solved in a mode of production that is still under market logic. There will be no stopping climate change without a social revolution, and I mean a global social revolution.

[ashen mauve]

Only thing Ted did was take the academic theories about tech and put it in a way that can be understandable to the average reader.

[undone beacon]

Yea they can

[umbral reef]

I mean, I guess I can’t say there’s 100% chance they can’t be, but I can’t imagine it

They’re simply isn’t an incentive for it in a capitalist/market economy

[undone beacon]

You just make the technology profitable it isn't that complicated

[umbral reef]

in fact, the incentives go in the other direction. We’re going up against perverse incentives with not a lot of political will

[undone beacon]

You just do subsidies until an industry is created

[umbral reef]

We could do that in the west, probably. But the third world/developing countries are the hurdle that I don’t think we can get over within capitalism

And honestly, they (China/India/Africa) have a point that climate regulations are unfair to them. But they’re just going to have to eat shit unless they want to die with the rest of us.

[glossy marlin]

I know some people might get by long enough to receive other treatment or be in a situation where they don´t need antidepressants anymore, but there are lots of types of medicine that pretty frequently do little to nothing if not more harm than good, I´m in some communities that are great examples of meds and the way healthcare works doing more harm than good, and I´ve always had some interest in it.
it´s mostly about treating symptoms just enough to extract value through labor (and the diagnosis process and payment for medicine and whatnot), as well as keeping up some norms / views like how a woman should present or what they´re allowed to do or whether or not they´re inferior.

[true zinc]

"It isn't that complicated", except it is, many of these systems require a large upfront investment that most firms are unwilling to make. Besides that, as Case is mentioning, a lot of the places where such systems would be helpful (outside of all the oil usage in the west and such), would be unable to get the systems due to how prohibitively expensive they would be. For a bit of an inverse example in a way, consider just how expensive most prescription drugs are in the united states vs almost anywhere on earth

[upbeat basin]

It is a trap in the sense that is means a sacrifice. A lot of people are not willing to sacrifice certain things because it would mean even more problems. It is more like a guy who has joint problems because he has to run a water pump all day so he has clean drinking water tomorrow. He could give up the root cause problem and just drink dirty water from tomorrow on or he could try to come up with a way to run the pump without ruining his joints and until takes painkillers. Peoples frustration comes in when the effort to run the pump somehow else turns out fruitless so far and all that is effectively done is taking painkillers. You can feel trapped then.

[true zinc]

Hot take: most medicine is harmful

(if not all)

[ashen mauve]

It did look like the Communist revolution did fail, I only know of Lenin's revolution.

But I don't think Lenin was diverging from Marx's theories in a malicious way, it looked like he did many things purely because of practical circumstances, there could be cases where he preferred to put his own interest of taking power over implementing Marx ideals, but you could make an argument as a supporter of Lenin, that we can put our number one objective as to gain power and then start putting in Marx's theories.

[glass peak]

There’s a hot take and then there’s just being wrong

Very plainly neither most and certainly not all medicine is harmful, and that’s frankly just a ridiculous thing to say

[true zinc]

Why did someone react to nope's message with an israeli flag???

[undone beacon]

I think she meant anti depressants

[umbral reef]

Well… I’d personally limit this mainly to prescription pharmaceuticals for mental health disorders, but I take your point

[undone beacon]

It's funny

[glossy marlin]

actually, we don´t. we humans are curious creatures, we´ll discover the issues again and again, many of us independently, and it seems to be mostly the right wing / upper class that will distance us and themselves from those issues for their benefit.

[upbeat basin]

Not really a hot take. I think it is established medical consensus that no meds is the best and should be limited to need.

[glossy marlin]

well, estrogen, insulin and such can be very good. but yeah, a lot of medicine is harmful

[true zinc]

Good: sure
Prohibitively expensive in places where it absolutely shouldn't be? Also yes

[glossy granite]

Sadly healthier patients don't make as much money

[umbral reef]

Good points here, just because the Russian revolution eventually was overcome 70 years later doesn’t mean that the global, international proletarian Revolution has failed.

And also, I think you have a great point about Lenin‘s pragmatism, it’s a unique point and I have to agree with it. 100% he was actually a fantastic opportunist, but in the best sense of that word.

[glass peak]

Even if this is what she means, I think this is vastly overstating the problem. There’s certainly many issues surrounding this, and there’s many socioeconomic factors which are likely the main thing causing a lot of people’s problems, not to mention a lot of places especially in the US seemingly being very prescription happy.

But they also make a massive difference in the quality of lives of so so many people, and to say that they’re actively harmful to most if not all people is just ridiculous. If you try to expand that to anything other than just antidepressants it’s just even more ridiculous and indefensible position

[upbeat basin]

Are "right wing / upper class people" somehow not regular humans?

[glossy marlin]

also unnecessarily restricted. and the wait times can be deadly.

[undone beacon]

He killed 100s of thousands of innocent people and created a bloated destructive Russian empire

[true zinc]

Also, regarding prescription medication: another great example of medicines that could be more detrimental than helpful are various types of pain medication, just look at what's happened with the opioid based pain killer medications, they've had quite a bad impact in some places

[glossy marlin]

they´re also humans, but not all of humanity, and don´t seem to be how most children are.

[gusty gate]

theyre called drugs for a reason , am i right ?

[umbral reef]

The Emperor actually created the empire. That’s why he was called the emperor (later, the “czar.” derived from “Caesar”).

[true zinc]

Painkillers are useful, I have to use them to get through the day due to permanent nerve damage in my back, neck, and arms after a car accident and some other crap, but overusing them would cause me a lot of issues, or even at normal doses if I'm not careful

[undone beacon]

Yea people here literally want to kill them lol

[undone beacon]

I am talking abt the ussr

[glass peak]

Certainly, but this doesn’t mean most medicine is harmful, nor even pain medication. The opioid crisis is not some sort of proof that people shouldn’t take medicine

There’s certainly risks associated but this is a very different thing to say than that they’re harmful

[umbral reef]

Idk but I clicked on it too because I thought it was funny

[upbeat basin]

I think just today we talked about the stages of genocide 😅

[true zinc]

That's fair, I struggle to see the boundary between when something would be considered generally risky vs being outright harmful, I guess (also apologies for the accidental opencry, my touchpad is fucked up on my laptop so I have to tap on the screen sometimes and the auto double tap emoji it picked for me is.....opencry)

[glossy marlin]

well, the right wing in many countries also literally wants to kill several minorities and all their allies worldwide.
I think it´s fair for some people to snap or joke about it a little.

[umbral reef]

Alas, the USSR was a union of semi autonomous socialist republics. During the late 1970s and 80s They started participating in some “socialist/red imperialism” that was misguided imo and ultimately failed.

Idk what the point you’re trying to make is though, obviously the USSR had some major problems evidenced by the fact that it doesn’t exist anymore

[glass peak]

Well this is kinda what doctors and pharmacists are supposed to weigh up, that’s a massive part of the job. They get it wrong sometimes, see the opioid crisis, but I think it’s actually just irresponsible to say that “most if not all medicine is harmful”

[true zinc]

That's fair, and to my understanding the opioid crisis had quite a few other factors going for it, so there's that as well. Overall, I agree, my original statement was too far reaching and somewhat irresponsible

[upbeat basin]

You think they genetically predisposed to be come right wing jerks?

[undone beacon]

They literally invaded poland, Ukraine, the baltics and other various countries in the 20s and 30s

[unborn meteor]

it can be disabled

[true zinc]

Oh? Good to know

[unborn meteor]

via nitro (yes i'm serious)

[true zinc]

ofcourse

[unborn meteor]

so if you get orbs nitro and set it to a custom emoji, then delete said emoji...

[true zinc]

OH MY GODS I CAN FINALLY TURN THIS OFF HOLY SHIT

[umbral reef]

Yes, I know the history of the Russian Civil War and of World War II. I just don’t understand what the point you’re getting at is.

[unborn meteor]

WAIT WHAT THIS IS AN OPTION

[undone beacon]

My point is that they were an empire

Do you know why eastern europe hates the russians ?

This is all before ww2 btw

[umbral reef]

I reject the premise, I don’t think you can generalize the opinions of the USSR from every single person living in a previously Warsaw Pact country

[undone beacon]

There are polls abt this you don't have to take my word

[glossy marlin]

I think it´s the exact opposite, we have records showing that humans are mostly curious, creative and compassionate individuals (or collectives) by nature, but the right wing loves to snuff those values out, blame injustice on people who have no part in it and make some false promises.

[undone beacon]

You are just over generalizing abt the right wing

[umbral reef]

How are you defining empire, out of curiosity? Because clearly we’re not talking about an empire in the same form of say, Rome, Spain, Britain, France, and the like. Because there’s more to being an empire than colonization or Bonapartism. It’s a way that a state operates internally as well.

[undone beacon]

Controlling people outside of your nation through use of force

Not to mention the russufication campaigns of stalin etc

[umbral reef]

I agree with you here, I feel like he’s using “the right wing” as a sort of loosely defined catch all for people with bad politics

[upbeat basin]

So they had the same capacity to that at birth like everyone else but their upbringing made them work against these traits in them and others?

[umbral reef]

I don’t think this is true, but I guess we’d then have to get into what and whom exactly you mean by “the right wing“

[glossy marlin]

yes, that´s how it seems to me. some people see through that stuff, of course.

[glossy marlin]

when I talk about "the right wing" I mean the right wing. large parts of it, at least. conservatives, capitalists, nationalists, whatever.

[undone beacon]

You just haven't read right wing intellectuals

[glossy marlin]

-# dude, your unchecked androcentrism
-# your use of he

[glossy marlin]

you can usually click on the diamonds next to people´s names for pronouns. please respect those.

[umbral reef]

It can be a fine line after you liberate country from Nazi occupation to becoming an occupying force yourself, this is true. And the USSR definitely fucked it up sometimes (Hungary, and Czechoslovakia, particularly, IMO). But those Warsaw Pact countries DID have their own governments and autonomy. I just disagree with the old Reaganite slogan that the USSR is the “evil empire”, or an empire of any kind TBH.

[undone beacon]

What about ukraine the baltics the central asian countries , and many other cases of nations being absorbed to the ussr

Also the ussr invaded countries before ww2, and made agreement swith Hitler to split up eastern europe

[umbral reef]

Oh sorry I honestly didn’t realize that was a thing TBH. I’m a millennial and they taught me to use “He” as a universal back when I was in school; there’s no malice behind it I assure you.

What’s the proper way to phrase these things?

[umbral reef]

Oh, I see. Thanks!

[true zinc]

(that or some people keep their pronouns in their usernames and such)

[mellow pond]

imma just uhhh

[umbral reef]

I’m sorry, but I don’t have time to have this debate right now, and to be frank all of these things have been litigated to death over and over and over and over again, so I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with your interpretation of the facts, and encourage you to read a bit deeper into things like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, etc.

[true zinc]

Simple answer: 💵

[glossy marlin]

the pronouns for when you don´t know someone´s pronouns, or want to refer to a group, or want to refer to someone with those pronouns, is they / them. if you don´t know someone´s pronouns, you can usually just ask about it

[mellow pond]

ugh yep

[umbral reef]

It’s because they either were arrested and tried during a time when it was illegal, or it’s because the weed they add either wasn’t legal in their state or was over the weight limit for legal possession. However, I’ve never heard of anybody being incarcerated for a gram of weed before.

[glossy marlin]

-# also the war on drugs is in part a war on people of color who may rely on them to cope

[undone beacon]

Jesus I hate left wing politics

[upbeat basin]

And I go a step further and say that this capacity to do "bad" did not magically appear at one point and is self-sustaining through continued hand-down the generations but everyone is born with that capacity too. You see signs in all children and but also adults from all walks of life can show it more or less. Hench my conclusion the problem is human nature itself to have that capacity, that tendency, in the first place.

[true zinc]

Oh yeah, we'd had a long conversation about this on our server a few months back

[glossy marlin]

is it not a way to discriminate against some people of color?
we´ve seen pretty much exactly that.
and drugs aren´t inherently harmful or something where just banning them helps, if you´ve ever heard about rat park.

[true zinc]

The issue isn't even the drugs themselves, rather regulation, harm reduction, and for the ones that are deemed to be relatively safe (mainly thinking of cannabis when I say this), legalization

[mellow pond]

i'm convinced, as crazy as i may sound, that some part of the government intentionally planted certain drugs in certain neighborhoods

[umbral reef]

Thank you. I’ll do my best to remember to use they/them for people I don’t know yet; if I slip up I hope you understand that it’s merely force of habit and not with any ill, Will or lack of regard for the way people wish to be addressed!

[undone beacon]

All drugs are inherently harmful and dealers should get the death penalty

[glossy granite]

Say it louder for the people in the back

[true zinc]

Yes they did, this is a thing that we were talking about with some people rgarding the opioid crisis and fentanyl and cocaine crises a few months back

[mellow pond]

i fucking hate it here

[glossy marlin]

yes, everyone is capable of harm, and not acknowledging can lead to much more harm, but I feel like e.g. wanting to hunt and kill gay guys isn´t a desire people are born with

[true zinc]

I didn't believe it, myself, when I first heard about it -James

[umbral reef]

Respectfully, I find this slightly offensive. “The racism of low expectations” kind of way. But I understand what you mean behind it.

[glossy marlin]

oh, we´ve seen that too. authorities and bigoted neighbors planting weed and calling cops

[undone beacon]

Nobody mainstream in the right wing wants to "kill" gay people

[upbeat basin]

Not that specific and fleshed out. Harming things we don't like is pretty normal though.

[mellow pond]

yep

[undone beacon]

Just conspiracy theories

[true zinc]

Conversion therapy is no better

They obviously aren't at the point where they'd want to actively raise weapons against people in the streets, but what's happening is far more clandestine

[mellow pond]

are you being intentionally dense

[umbral reef]

I don’t know that you could find someone who wants to hunt and kill gay men outside of the absolute poorest areas of Pakistan or something. And if you do, I’m certain it’s not just gay men that they’re killing but a lot of other people too.

[mellow pond]

indeed

[glossy marlin]

painkillers and antibiotics are referred to as drugs. antidepressants and sedatives are called drugs.
people sometimes rely on drugs to cope. banning drugs just makes people seek out other, usually less safe sources.
nobody deserves the death penalty, especially not based on hearsay or for something as minor as making life tolerable for others.

[upbeat basin]

From what I heard the argument is that their beliefs clearly reflect a desire to harm such people even if they never officially say so. Also most people that do harm them have similar beliefs. So it can feel like dog whistle.

[undone beacon]

I am obviously talkin abt illicit drugs that have no proven health benefits

[umbral reef]

Sure, but physically harming PEOPLE that we don’t like is absolutely not something that’s normal or encouraged, at least in our society

[undone beacon]

That's also not mainstream

[glossy marlin]

how about black people? women? immigrants? trans people? intersex people? schizophrenic people?
trump wants to get rid of some of those. he´s pretty mainstream.
littman, zucker, etc. want to get rid of trans people and don´t acknowledge intersex people either.
there´s a man who has spent the most money to shape transphobia to turn back the clock for feminists and black rights activists.

[upbeat basin]

That is something different though. I'm just talking about human urges. Everyone wanted to punch their bully once and maybe even did it even though we dont encourage violence in our society.

[glossy granite]

No but if you're a known dealer and your "product" can for sure be linked to the death of one or more individuals then it's definitely fair to give them the needle with the likelihood going up with the number of victims you're not going to get much empathy out of me for a guy that sells people poison

[umbral reef]

Oh, then I misunderstood. Yeah I agree with you.

[true zinc]

Large amounts of people I know use sedatives, antidepressants, pain killers, antibiotics, mood stabilizers, and a lot of other stuff, most of it legally, and for them, they need it to survive, some have very poor immune function, others have a host of mental health issues brought on by trauma (many of them are systems, many are intersex or trans, many have terrifying health issues I can't mention in this server due to how haunting they are, that should tell you all you need to know), many also drink alcohol and smoke (cigarettes or marijuana), I used weed too (once it was made legal where I live)

[undone beacon]

Nobody in the right wing want to kill any of those groups, Hispanics voted in record numbers for trump . Criticizing the LGBTq movement isn't wanting to kill them

[long orchid]

what the hell is going on here

[abstract nimbus]

holy fallacy

[umbral reef]

I heard that insulin is pretty healthy for diabetics to take. I don’t know tho could just be a rumor lol

[true zinc]

How is it a fallacy? /genq (I genuinely missed it)

[glossy marlin]

trump said like a week ago that he´d hunt down and kill all trans people and allies. some people behind KOSA said it was made to "protect" kids from the "violent transgenderists" or whatever.

[true zinc]

That is true, insulin is very very important

[undone beacon]

Link

[true zinc]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/releases/2026/03/president-trump-ended-democrats-transgender-for-everybody-insanity/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_transgender_people_under_the_second_Trump_administration

Wikipedia is a bad source I know, but it has hundreds of aggregate links

[umbral reef]

Hyperbole and emotional reactions. Just another beautiful day on the glorious Internet. 😊

[unborn meteor]

oh no what is happening

[abstract nimbus]

"hispanics voted in record numbers for trump so clearly the american right wing isn't insanity" this is both a cherry picking fallacy and another fallacy that i can't name but i mean it's clear as day using other people's thought processes as "proof" that another's is fine is just absurdity

[true zinc]

god I want to throw up after having to search that up

[true zinc]

OHHHHH okay, thank you

[glossy marlin]

all the people who buy that stuff need support, drugs may give that. we shouldn´t live in a world where people feel a need to die. the dealer could get some regulations to make it safer in the future. rehabilitative justice works a thousand times better if you want something like that.

[true zinc]

Sorry, I'm just kinda bad at noticing fallacies or tone over text conversations sometimes, it's a lot of information for my brain to process

[glossy marlin]

I´ve heard that some drug dealers show a lot more empathy than family, teachers and authorities.

[glossy granite]

If one of my family members died because of bad drugs the last thing I would want is for the justice done to be rehabilitative just saying

[undone beacon]

Marco rubio is literally Hispanic what are you people talkin abt

[umbral reef]

TBH they are good and there are bad people in every profession/vocation, including organized crime funny enough

[undone beacon]

Nobody in the mainstream republican party wants to "exterminate " people of color

[true zinc]

We should not be in a world where we put people who are at their lowest points in prison (or worse) for trying to use drugs to get through one more day a time, and for those who sell and ACTIVELY take a role in causing harm to others or take advantage of them, that's a different story

[glossy granite]

Them getting the needle would be a kindness because they would deserve something far worse ie more painful than that as a way to go

[umbral reef]

My wife died this way in 2017. I agree with you, although they never caught the random guy on the corner she bought it from of course.

[glossy granite]

Very sorry to hear about your loss mate

[true zinc]

Ack wrong reply, sorry

[glossy marlin]

if one of my family members died I´d be happy. if one of my loved ones died or got harmed a bit maybe I´d feel enough hate to want the ones behind it dead, but my beliefs wouldn´t change, rehabilitative justice works way better and nobody deserves the death penalty or whatever.

[true zinc]

I meant to send that to Kharah

[umbral reef]

I just think they all drugs should be legal and regulated for quality. I’ve never really encountered to persuasive argument that there’s a better system when it comes to the welfare of people with regards to the drug problem

[undone beacon]

Yea they do

[umbral reef]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

[true zinc]

I feel like letting some agonize for the rest of their life in a cell causes a lot more anguish than just killing them, if your goal is to cause them suffering

[undone beacon]

Nah not rly, a shot to the head and the problem is gone

[glossy granite]

Sadly letting them agonize for the rest of their lives means paying higher taxes to maintain the prisons and that sounds like a pretty bad deal to me

[glossy marlin]

-# I know what I said in that first sentence. my family contains some of the worst people I´ve met in person.
-# and some healthcare professionals and authorities at the very least should not be allowed within a mile or two of their offices.
-# if I had a drug dealer that person would likely show more compassion and help me more with all my goals than every family member and doctor and teacher and authority I´ve met so far together.

[umbral reef]

This is one of those situations where I humbly refrain from making a judgment at all. It’s hard for me to understand how or why any person would want to become a judge, I’m not a religious person, but I’m pretty sure that passing judgment on others – especially when it comes to literal life or death - is like one of the worst things you can do according to the Bible and probably every other religion

[abstract nimbus]

yeah i think regardless of how you put it the death sentence is just kind of not the best way to run a correctional facility because either you can let them suffer in a cell, work them, or rehabilitate them, all of which is a net positive imo in some fashion there's the tax thing but the taxes can be justified in both the second and third options i mentioned so, and there's also other ways to do it it's fine to disagree with the ones i mentioned but at the end of the day i don't know how you could really justify the death sentence other than morality which is unfortunately a weak thing to base things on

[true zinc]

My family has done quite a lot of bad shit, yet somehow I cannot get myself to just walk away from them

[umbral reef]

I’m sorry to hear about your family. And as far as the latter part , I definitely agree

[upbeat basin]

Maybe on my quick fly through the text I missed it but I dont see anything he enforced that isnt a direct consequence of him disagreeing with their standpoints and acting accordingly. I didnt see malicious harm.

[glossy granite]

People disagreeing with a group of people tends to turn into persecution to said group of people very quickly, to be fair, these days

[umbral reef]

Well, I mean they’re your family. I think that’s pretty normal. I used to be supportive of it, but I’m starting to become a bit wary of the contemporary tendency of going “no contact“ with immediate family members over disagreements or perceived “covert narcissism“ or whatever the pop psychology diagnosis of the day is.

[true zinc]

There are more, I'll dig them up later, but there was a later EO where he goes into how he believes "radical transgenderism" must be stopped at all costs, imposes a series of orders that (with some time) will lead to heavy curtailing of the LGBTQ movement (by designating trans people as domestic terrorists), and then well..you see where this goes

[glossy granite]

No I don't see where it goes please do elaborate because that's kinda weak sauce

[umbral reef]

I’m sure there’s some situations where the best course of action is to escape one’s family, but it seems to me like an Extreme action. Outside of cases of acute and ongoing physical, sexual or emotional abuse, I have a feeling that most people are better served by just making it really hard honest effort to resolve whatever the issue is

[glossy granite]

It's like saying we have to do all this stuff paying money for solar panels or whatever because the big sun monster wants to kill us in 2015

And then of course that didn't happen

[true zinc]

I genuinely hate pop pyschology, so I do not know what they're on about, but I know for a fact that my mother displays almost constant narcissistic (as in NPD) and antisocial traits, refused to believe me when I discussed the heavy abuse I was facing at school, both my parents have been arguing almost daily for 15 years and refuse to change anything, usually try to bring me into their 5-6 hour screaming matches (which have led to me losing significant hearing in my one good ear (deaf at birth in the other) alongside my mother nearly getting me killed twice? (thrice?) in the last year alone

[umbral reef]

Well, see that would be an example of acute and ongoing abuse, in my opinion

[glossy marlin]

I don´t have an image saved but I´ve seen an image or two with the words of some big conservative, probably trump, threatening to seek out and kill trans people and allies

and there´s obviously all the info about kosa

[undone beacon]

If you have that send it

Bc it's definitely not the same as thinking that trans people have mental health issues

[long orchid]

chat daily reminder that you don't have to justfy your identity to someone

[glossy granite]

I saw a dinosaur once but sadly I didn't take a picture of it but it definitely exists trust me

But yes if you find it please do share

[undone beacon]

That's what an identity is

If you can't defend than it has no meaning

[long orchid]

lol ok

[glossy marlin]

-# I know like half a dozen other people in that sort of situation

[glossy granite]

Funny how this has to be said in a math discord server of all places, identities in math being things that are proven while axioms are assumed and don't require defense/proof

[umbral reef]

I’m sure you have, my friend, but I would just encourage you (and everyone else) to be very skeptical when it comes to media consumption… Political bad actors are not dumb, and they have figured out that weaponizing memes is one of the most low investment/high reward ways to affect public opinion.

I really believe that we have to be discreet consumers. Including consuming information.

[upbeat basin]

I do remember someone posting the 2026 counterterrorism strategy paper of the USA. I think they mention "trans" twice. Once in combination of the Kirk assassination and second when they say they wanna focus on " violent secular political groups whose ideology is anti-American, radically pro-transgender, and anarchist".

[true zinc]

Yes, I believe this is closer to what I was looking for

[undone beacon]

Maybe because there have been a series of killings linked to Trans people?

[true zinc]

Statistics show that most murders in the united states are not caused by trans people!

[abstract nimbus]

problem though is that there really is no factual basis to calling transness a mental illness at all

[glossy granite]

Pretty valid stuff to be honest, get those anarchists etc out of here

[true zinc]

Trans people having mental health issues != being trans is a mental issue

[undone beacon]

That's a political opinion and not a fact

[abstract nimbus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ
infact there is only the opposite, it is more akin to natural genetic varation

[true zinc]

correlation does not imply causation

[abstract nimbus]

why do we base our political opinions on things that aren't facts

[undone beacon]

Statics also show that they are also a tiny minority

[umbral reef]

Luckily, even in extremely toxic and chaotic households like that, once you’re 18, you can GTFO and never look back if you don’t want to. On the other hand, my mother did that and her mother passed a couple years ago, and she still brings up the amount of regret she feels about not forgiving her before she passed away. Not even that her mother necessarily deserved forgiveness, more for her own sake. Living with resentment can be a terrible life…

[glossy granite]

"per capita" ring any bells?

[true zinc]

I'm 21, I can't move out as my family is currently paying for my uni studies and is making it quite clear they'd like me to stay in the city I'm in if I find a job because big city with a lot og govt jobs and such

[upbeat basin]

The problem with all these euphemisms, beating-round-the-bush and dog whistles is that you can't pin them down on that. Just by that you cant confidently say he's gonna go on a witch hunt. Its just speculation 😅

[glossy granite]

Speculation, fearmongering, etc etc

[upbeat basin]

I mean, anarchists whole thing is to not want to be part of a nation anyway, right? XD

[upbeat basin]

How could it? They are a small minority.

[umbral reef]

I have noticed that there are a LOT more transgender people in the local anarchist scene then there were a decade or two ago. Like, in order of magnitude more. Of course I’m not saying that being transgender has anything to do with anarchism or vice versa, but I would imagine that’s why they’re looking into it. I wonder why that is, anyway?

[ashen marsh]

this isnt necessarily true. if youre 18 and you had a terrible time growing up then moving out means youll be homeless. your parents can also file that you are clinically insane and legally detain you in their home on that basis

[glossy marlin]

I know. but in a country that kills trans women every couple of days, where the president is openly against them and several bills have been passed to get rid of them, presidents from other countries got dragged away as a warning or whatever, there are attempts at restricting freedom of speech, etc., it wouldn´t surprise me if he said he´d send authorities to kill each and every one and their allies.
-# and I don´t think trans women are the bad actors here.

[undone beacon]

I am not sure wym, psychology isn't a settled science , you can't rly prove that being Trans is a mental health issue or not . And in any case, most conservatives don't care what you do to yourself, pushing to children is a different issue

[glossy granite]

No they just want to abolish governments and anything that gives society structure so they can construct things that don't work

[umbral reef]

Obviously affinity groups and anarchist spaces are very friendly for people who identify as LGBTQ, but there are a lot of other spaces like that too. I wonder if there is something about anarchism specifically?

[upbeat basin]

It starts with the subjectiveness of what is a fact even 😅

[true zinc]

Discontent with current political parties and candidates, alongside a strong dislike and distrust for any groups that may even consider stripping rights that many feel hve only revently been acquired

[long orchid]

can you tell us what you do believe then

save us all the time and effort

[abstract nimbus]

even if there were some statistical basis to associate crime with transness at all it's important to consider the environment of a lot of people who are trans and criminal being less than favorable for good mental conditions (like every other criminal) exacerbated by right wing oppression and it is important to notice that not all transpeople are mentally ill and not all transpeople have had bad lives and not all transpeople have any intention on committing a crime

[umbral reef]

That sounds like a nightmare. And yeah, you make a good point and I sometimes forget that I’m 37 and one can’t exactly move out with $400 dollars anymore like I did. 😞

[undone beacon]

Personally I have no idea , I can see points in both camps

[long orchid]

bruh

[glossy marlin]

there have been roughly three thousand mass shootings in the USA in 2025, but only three alleged ones from known trans people, a group that likely makes up multiple percent of the population. statistics don´t seem much better for your argument when you look at basically any other crimes, except maybe drug use, and what´s likely to become a crime soon, being trans.

[umbral reef]

True. It’s a reasonable conclusion. I didn’t mean to imply that transwomen are making these memes BTW.

I I mostly meant actual professional politicos or party operatives even

[abstract nimbus]

neurology is a much more settled science, however, and there hasn't been a single piece of evidence to suggest transness (and furthermore LGBTness) is a problem for anybody and actually it only suggests that it is natural deviation in development which we have learnt to celebrate everybody's natural self and variation because we're not 19th century barbarians

[upbeat basin]

The trans part seems to be linked to the Kirk killing since it gets mentioned previously in the paper. I could also see why trans people tend to end up more in all kinds of anti-government interest groups when their own government denies them acknowledgment and any support.

[ashen marsh]

moreover like, if you look different and are alienated by society it is difficult to get a job or fit in. trans people are put in more vulnerable situations always

[upbeat basin]

Ah yes. The manly urge to fuck things up yourself XD

[umbral reef]

That actually makes total sense. It’s so obvious I’m kind of embarrassed I didn’t think of it.

[glossy marlin]

it could be an attempt from the right wing to instill fear in all sorts of minority groups. could also be something trump said, and I think he would say it eventually.

[undone beacon]

Celebrating one's natural self is just blind hedonism

[true zinc]

As a victim of having this shit pushed to children, I agree it's a fucking disaster. I was radicalised into this bullshit by other teenagers in the groups I used to frequent, it got so bad that at times it felt like everyone I knew from that group were coming out at the same time, it's all just to be quirky that much is obvious. If someone is trans, they have dysphoria, they don't just decide one day to "be trans" like so so so many people are doing now to confirm with the new gen Z and gen alpha societies. It's the same with with DID/Plurality, while reports of the condition have existed as far back as the 1850s and there are probably unwritten records all throughout history, it's just become a quirk, basically everyone on the terminally online side of tumblr or twitter is somehow plural, flaunts how shit their lives have been, have made their own mind-bogglingly complicated dictionary in an effort to classify all the stuff they say goes on in their mind when much of it can be characterized by "alters are various personalities, some people can conceputalize and map them all mentally, some are not very kind, some are, they're personalities, what do you expect" and call it a day

[umbral reef]

What demographic of people has done the most of those mass shootings, out of curiosity? Oh wait God no don’t answer that! Lmao just kidding around. But yeah, the discourse around “mass shootings“ is funky because it’s a somewhat tricky thing to define…

[undone beacon]

Black people commit a disproportionate share of violence in the us

[abstract nimbus]

What would you have people do? What is the better alternative to celebrating the fact that you and me are unique individuals?

[glossy granite]

Isn't it defined as any shooting with a casualty count greater than like 3-5 or whatever? Don't have the number off the top of my head but it's something like that

[umbral reef]

Absolutely. I’m not making a claim one way or the other, I was just making a bit of a little PSA for peoples epistemological hygiene, ha

[upbeat basin]

Personally, the mechanisms that "make someone do a crime" are so complex and convoluted, if it has a simple answer like "you black" or "you trans" I would see that as a strong indicator its just wrong XD

[true zinc]

Any shooting with 3 or more victims is considered a mass shooting in the US, deaths or injuries

[undone beacon]

See what's best for a well functioning society and subordinate one's self to that

[glossy granite]

Sounds pretty good to me

[abstract nimbus]

Define what is best instead of being unprincipled

[true zinc]

You're not, you're a cog in the machine, please get to work

[glossy marlin]

being trans is kinda in your head. what it takes to "make cis kids trans" is having a trans character in your show. meanwhile we´ve found literally nothing that turns trans kids cis or whatever, especially nothing that doesn´t also give them PTSD or dissociative disorders.
trust me, people have tried for over a hundred years to "fix it", and that went as far as shocking them with car batteries and making their siblings have intercourse with them.
and a lot of trans people don´t experience things like dysphoria, which is the most disordering part of it.
a lot of people with dysphoria also develop depression, PTSD or dissociative disorders, and only a small amount of them can point to any event(s) that could even have contributed.

[glossy granite]

We can look to the past ie tradition for stuff that's "best" aka the stuff that has worked and discard the stuff that clearly doesn't work, then iterate that process over the course of history and we'll be all jolly and good

[abstract nimbus]

I would say celebrating natural deviation is a good thing for society because we suddenly stopped enslaving people on racial basis and exterminating populations because they're different after we started doing that

[umbral reef]

Do you remember a couple years ago when all the kids were catching “Tourette’s syndrome” through TikTok? Lmao

[true zinc]

Yes, yes I do, it's fucking stupid

[undone beacon]

Well that obviously depends, I guess what furthers humanity into our exploration of the cosmos

[undone beacon]

There are many "natural" deviations we don't celebrate rightly in my opinion

[long orchid]

like what

[umbral reef]

Or at least your family. Or at least yourself, if you don’t have a relationship with your family…

[ashen marsh]

my thoughts are:

people are people, and you should be kind to everyone.

i think that it isnt so weird how some people are plural- like, its a cultural construction that we are "one" person with a single soul or whatever. No one becomes trans, they just fall out of heteronormative culture.

However the case may be, people should strive to be kind, and should take responsibility for their actions

[undone beacon]

Psychopaths, criminals etc

[abstract nimbus]

And you don't believe that celebrating that people have different skills and interests and abilities is a good thing (and of course further more gender, sexuality, hair color, and so on but these are less relevant to this specific point)

[abstract nimbus]

Psychopaths are not inherently bad people and criminal behavior is not natural deviation

[upbeat basin]

I think that's the core of the actual debate. Where is the line there? Different people have different answers.

[undone beacon]

It is

And they are

[umbral reef]

Yeah, I was making a reference to how the amount of gang violence in the black communities of urban areas skew the mass shooting statistics to the point of near uselessness when trying to discuss anything else except black on black gun crime. But bringing that up a bit controversial, for obvious reasons

[undone beacon]

I am not sure it might be it might not be, it just shouldn't be taken as an axiom

[glossy marlin]

black people have been pretty nice as far as I know. actually, every oppressed minority has done far less than you´d expect given everything they´ve been through and all they´re accused of.

[true zinc]

It's pointless and frankly disgusting

You already are, now what will you do

A person is the sum of their actions

[ashen marsh]

yeah, i dont have dysphoria. im also a girl and a boy at the same time i enjoy it

[long orchid]

fiiire

[undone beacon]

I can't see how that is healthy

[true zinc]

I am dysphoric, I am trans, I fucking hate it, I wish I could go back to being a cis male, I wish this wasn't forced on me and I wish I wasn't forced into hating the body that God had already given me, it's so horrible for those it's forced onto

[abstract nimbus]

Prove it then, prove your claim that psychopaths are inherently bad people and prove your claim that criminal behavior is natural because I only have evidence for exactly the contrary

[ashen marsh]

i disagree lol. people should celebrate their humanity. its incredible that we are alive.

[glossy granite]

We don't have to celebrate someone changing their hair color to some different color like red or deep purple because for society at large that and other immutable characteristics are literally irrelevant, we should celebrate accomplishments instead of creating nonsensical days of celebration like we're some kumbaya tribe worshipping a totem pole

[abstract nimbus]

And now you've fallen off the deep end

[ashen marsh]

(we should celebrate ourselves. we are not obligated to celebrate other people, but that does not give us permission to disrespect them)

[abstract nimbus]

i agree

[ashen marsh]

i agree with this actually

[glossy granite]

Guess you've gone off the deep end with me 😔

[undone beacon]

It depends on what you mean by a bad person . A psychopath by definition is someone that can't feel connection to other humans and sees them as objects, in no way can that be healthy for a society to celebrate or even accept. Criminal behavior has been linked to genetics and it's pretty well accepted, addiction can also be genetic for example

[ashen marsh]

but we should be considerate about who gets to decide what accomplishments are important

[true zinc]

Being alive is simply the product of billions of years of combinations of amino acids and evolution, that's all it is, you are born, you live, you eat, you sleep, you shit, you do whatever, then you die, instead of marvelling at how incredible it is that humans can frankly be such disgusting creatures (my god why do we need to use the organs we literally excrete waste from to procreate), why can't we just sit down, go to school, do whatever, and make our mark on the world and be done with it, you have 80 odd years to live, so why spend so much of it on pointless frivolty

[umbral reef]

I hear you, and I agree with your ethics. But I do want to point out that it’s not just a cultural construction, it’s a phenomenalogical reality. For example, I don’t have access to your inner experience, nor anyone else’s, and if your inner experience is anything like mine is then it’s ineffable and unable to be communicated through any language.

So I assume that it’s this experience of having an ego, which then created the idea of individual souls and individuals as a concept. Actually, the ancient Greek “psyche” is often correctly translated as “soul/spirit” as much as it is translated to “mind”

[glossy granite]

While I agree with parts of this you gotta admit it's pretty incredible that life has developed over such billions of years to create something like this for us uniquely and not really any other species (at least that we know of)

[umbral reef]

I agree. This is also a problem I have with Christianity.

[ashen marsh]

this is greek philosophy lol- but i can see your point.

i mean, there are different levels of who you are i think

when you look at a piece of visceral abstract art, you really get the sense that your peeking into the primal core of a person.

furthermore, how much of you is inside you?

personally, im strongly shaped by my environment and surroundings.

i think life is defined by its ability to adapt- so if there isnt any external world to adapt to (something outside of us) are we even alive at all?

[true zinc]

Life exists, sure it's "incredible" that humans have managed to come into existence in the first place, but life could technically form anywhere else with suitable conditions, statistically it's almost impossible that life hasn't formed anywhere else unless we outright live in a simulation programmed to have no other intelligent life

[long orchid]

I'm just glad this conversation isn't just another are trans people valid thing now

[ashen marsh]

transness convos always lead to convos about the human spirit

they are the same subject

[umbral reef]

I’m sorry that you’re trans, my friend. I can’t possibly imagine how awful that must feel for you.

[glossy marlin]

fun fact, from what I´ve heard that´s not the definition, and they´re not significantly more likely to commit crimes or whatever. a lot of them seek out some form of help.
criminal behavior has been linked to zip codes and it´s not accepted as much. addiction might be genetic or intergenerational, and it´s sorta why the rat park experiments were done.

[ashen marsh]

personally i am very happy to be trans, it is very freeing- trans isnt one thing, isnt like a single performance or object. its an absence of conformity

it can mean anything i think

[true zinc]

I am of the belief that conformity is very very important, if not one of the most important components of a functional society

[ashen marsh]

i agree

[umbral reef]

Great points. I’m very sympathetic to the sort of Nietzschean “becoming” > “being”

[abstract nimbus]

wow people have individual experiences shocking! /lh

[ashen marsh]

ooo true

[ashen marsh]

i agree with this though. when ive been without a friend group my identity feels way too ungrounded and terrifying, i mean, we really do need an anchor / something to conform to

[west bone]

I don't know if this will help, but (at least according to Islam) if you have been wronged, you will receive full compensation for it in the afterlife.

[glossy granite]

Yes we need restraint and something to cling to so that things don't get out of hand

[ashen marsh]

(signalis mentioned peak)

[upbeat basin]

Moresoever "nature" is actually really shitty in developing. It took billions of years to get to todays point. In a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time we achieved incredible advances and now have a reasonable prospect of ever traveling the stars. Once we there, in a mere 100 million years the galaxy could be completely colonized by us. If anything nature is holding us back. Its like the shitty starter motor that started the Ferrari engine that is humanity.

[undone beacon]

If islam is true she isn't going to be having fun in the afterlife

[umbral reef]

Oh, I’m happy for you. But since her transgender was forced upon her and she hates it, I just have to give her my condolences. I tried to imagine what it would be like for myself to have to become a woman after living so long as a man (like I suddenly developed gender, dysphoria), it’s literally so nightmarish that I can’t think about it for too long. I hate to say it, but I would probably just end my life.

[glossy marlin]

conforming (e.g. to strict standards of manhood, womanhood, or sanity) is sadly very important for being accepted and such, something that a lot of people struggle with to varying degrees, but people conforming is not important for any group of people to function imo. it´s the people that didn´t really conform that brought a good bit of progress afaik

[west bone]

Out of curiosity
Why did you check my uhh bio
But yeah I agree, signalis is PEAK

[true zinc]

But that depends on what God decides consists of wronging, many of my actions would probably end me up in Hell anyway, considering that when I was younger I was involved (groomed by) with some extremely extremely unsavoury people (all of whom whose entire job it was to hurt minors) alongside basically making it my whole job to be an asshoele to anyone I saw and disaparage their existence. I've also broken quite a few other commandments of most religions including those on sodomy, adultry, etc... so yeah no

[west bone]

Well, We will see I guess

[true zinc]

Oh I will not, that much is known, it is penance for my actions in this life

[undone beacon]

If you are under the age of accountability it isn't sinful if I remember it correctly

[abstract nimbus]

i have bpd and i can say that i literally had to, and am currently in the process of, writing myself a sort of "identity manual" because my "self" is so unstable and vague and it has actually helped so far even if its incomplete

[true zinc]

13? yeah no

[undone beacon]

It's isn't agreed upon some say 13 some say 18 some even 21

[glossy granite]

While it is true that the nonconformists brought quite a bit of progress to us by thinking outside the box I'd say that goes both ways (good and bad) and that we can't just willy-nilly disregard important parts of life, nature, biology etc just to see what would happen if we went off the rails because most of the time it's not going to be good for society more broadly

[true zinc]

I was sexually abused from when I was 11 to 13, I have engaged in abuse seeking behaviour as far as...today, I'm a compulsive liar, etc...

[upbeat basin]

I think if the thought of waking up tomorrow in the opposite sex body makes you think you want to kill yourself, you have your own kind of problem already.

[undone beacon]

Obviously that's not a sin and I am sry

[true zinc]

I disagree, while the nonconformists may have brought some level of progress, society has only progressed as far as it has due to some form of system to bring conformity, whether it be governments, religion, etc...

[undone beacon]

And in Christianity life experiences are taken into account

To my understanding

[umbral reef]

I am not exactly an expert on this kind of thing, but if you’re a Christian and feeling guilty about your past behaviors, I happen to know for a fact that they believe Christ/God is all forgiving if you ask him. So if that’s your thing, I would encourage you to ask your God for forgiveness rather than worrying about going to hell after you die.

I’m sorry that you have so much pain in your life. I hope you stay strong, I’m sure you are just have gotten this far. 💪

[umbral reef]

Why?

[glossy granite]

It's like taking away or changing axioms within math just to see what would happen, sure it would make for some interesting stuff (ig Euclidean vs non-Euclidean geometry could be an example of something good) but you gotta keep things coherent

[umbral reef]

I don’t know if you’re a man or a woman, but as a man, the idea of having to live without my penis is… I don’t think it’s for me.

[upbeat basin]

You getting suicidal thoughts from a inconvenience of life. That's not healthy.

[true zinc]

Well, I recall somewhere where it said that the victim is similarly considered one who participated in ||rape|| and therefore would be considered as liable, and also, c'mon, I've admitted to overusing alcohol and several other drugs earlier in this concersation alone. My family also worships a non Abrahamic religion and therefore has idols in the house and doesn't believe in the oneness of God, I take the LORD's name in vain almost daily, I do not honour my father nor my mother, I desecreate religios artifacts (of all religions), I have committed adultry, I have stolen, I have born false witness against my neighbours, and I covet, so lol

This is why I also do not follow any religions

[umbral reef]

An inconvenience?!

[glossy marlin]

we kinda had to disregard a lot of "life" and "biology" for progress in a lot of science and some politics, people try to think about what would happen if we went off the rails, and we know we sorta aren´t on track for anyone´s survival.
people finding community based on e.g. being transfem or playing a specific game is nice, but "conforming" as a word means other things.

[umbral reef]

I think we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree about this one.

[upbeat basin]

If your penis were to be removed due to injury, sickness, whatever, you would choose death? 😅

[west bone]

Ok so, let me explain it as far as I know:
1: According to Islam, people cannot fully see the things they do, but God can see everything completely: inner anxieties, the future, thoughts, intentional/unintentional mistakes.
2: There is something called "huqūq al-'ibād" where it says, basically
"God is extremely forgiving, but, if another human hurt you for example, God will let YOU, the victim, will "decide the result" and etc, its complicated
3: You cant know if you go to hell, or heaven, in islam (I might be wrong), niyyah (aka intentions behind actions matter A lot)

[glossy marlin]

you can get tits while keeping your dick! /hj

[true zinc]

Yes I have heard of this

[umbral reef]

I’d consider it. It would depend on my age, if I was married, a bunch of other stuff. But it’s not outside the realm of things I would consider, no.

[glossy granite]

Yeah probably same for me, lot to unpack there

[undone beacon]

I understand that but christ is literally god taking your sins, if you want to talk to him you can and you will be forgiven. Many have committed the same sins but repented. That is of course if you want to

[umbral reef]

Thanks for being honest, I thought I was going crazy for a second

[west bone]

Well, whatever can I say, just Trust the God I guess

[upbeat basin]

Sounds for me like a solid case of dangerous inner insecurity. Thankfully now you can avoid to address it, but should you ever loose it, please seek professional help.

[umbral reef]

Maybe I’m not interpreting your tone correctly, but I find this kind of condescending rather than born out of any actual concern. Regardless, we can just agree to disagree like I suggested.

Let’s move on

[glossy marlin]

yeah, that´s how some of us feel. whether it´s about transitioning before figuring it out, or about not transitioning at any point.
having it "forced onto you" by anything but nature is... pretty difficult.

[umbral reef]

I have tremendous sympathy for transgender people for this very reason

I’m glad that the medical science is seeming to advance more quickly at least

[upbeat basin]

I guess its is less a concern and more a egoistic motivated worry. I don't enjoy the thought of walking amongst people that would turn to violent solutions due to relatively minor things like body dysmorphia. I apologize if I offended you.

[umbral reef]

Apology accepted. I don’t necessarily understand your concern, but I’m sure that you have a good cause for it.

Wow, this server is insane. I don’t think I’ve ever actually had a respectful disagreement with someone on the Internet before.

Someone needs to contact CNN or something

[glossy marlin]

well, some people are still supporting its pathologization, some strange hypotheses and alternative "treatments", but other than that, it is slowly progressing. there´s more data about HRT every couple months to years, surgeons are getting better, surgeries are getting safer, a couple more ideas are being thrown around, maybe in a couple decades one or two new things will be accessible.

[true zinc]

Hah just wait until you see people from either corner of the overton window join in, then it becomes an utter shitshow of name calling and infighting

[true zinc]

HRT can cause liver damage, can it not?

[west bone]

(They were flaming my ass yesterday because I said "ai art is art created by ai yesterday")

[glass peak]

Good

[umbral reef]

Haha im sure. But hey, that’s why we gotta take our victories where we can find them!

[ancient lance]

This might stem from a disagreement on what art is , but I won't comment on that further as I don't know the details

[glass peak]

Anyone more left wing than me is a tankie larper, and anyone more rightwing is a fascist or a shit lib. I dont make the rules.

[west bone]

Yeah it was philosophical, sort of

[ancient lance]

That and there's a more serious discussion at hand here rn.

[glass peak]

(to be clear I said good jokingly, I have no clue what the context is)

[west bone]

• We hate AI Art, it isnt even art, the group agrees on this
• But It is art made by AI (I said)
  Than I sorta got jumped
  Thats the context

[glossy marlin]

everything can cause liver damage. specifically oral estrogens do have stronger association with liver damage, and certain antiandrogens, like bicalutamide, can cause it, but when you look at low doses of CPA or some GNRH modulators, and take into account that there are also a dozen versions of E2 including estradiol hemihydrate and a bunch of longer-lasting esters (prodrugs), some available to be administered sublingually, buccally, transdermally, as pellets or injections, HRT happens to be one of the safest treatments we know of afaik

[upbeat basin]

One big problem we face trying to approach the topic scientifically is that a lot of people have confirmation bias on both sides. Totally also due to it being a hot political topic, most people already know what they want the science to say and just try to prove it, making the science of low quality. A true scientific approach would be open for either outcome to be correct.

[glass peak]

Believing both that it is and isnt art is kinda hard but yeah lol

Its something im still unsure of my position on. I hate it, I think its disgusting and spits in the face of actual art, I want to say that it isnt art, but I dont know if I have an argument to justify that which is coherent with my other opinions yet

[upbeat basin]

How dare you having unpopular takes! XD

[umbral reef]

Same, except also anyone who agrees with me is a Tailist and a fake-comrade for denying me the gift of dialectical criticism!

[glossy marlin]

yes there´s some confirmation bias but when you look at some of the articles about HRT you either see someone recommending meds used to prevent hair loss and saying osteoporosis is the best you can hope for, or you see someone telling you what´s been happening in science and saying "we did not expect it to be this safe. other things aren´t this safe. this should not be this safe, could there be something wrong?"
if done right it has less risks than most painkillers or antidepressants and going to the bar once will harm your liver more than a couple months to years on HRT

[umbral reef]

So not only are all of my beliefs the only correct ones, but they’re also only correct when I have them.

[west bone]

Well my opinion is

• AI art is bad art, yes
• I dont use it
• It damages the artist
• But IMO, rejecting it doesnt make ai art disappear, acknowledged or not, I guess most optimal solution is, fighting it normally, By not using ai to create artistic pieces and supporting artists

[glass peak]

I want to say there has to be human intention and involvment to a significant degree, but I also think this then excludes things like cant help myself, which is absolutely art

[glossy marlin]

and yeah, some science is not the best, e.g. the amsterdam study on progestins, but that´s being looked at, other studies might be done, and you can find like a thousand anecdotes about effects, side effects, efficacy, whatever

[glass peak]

It also struggles to reconcile itself with things like abstract impressionism, though Pollock was very intentional in his work ostensibly, but yeah, im unsure. I think its an afront to art and to humanity, I dont want to call it art, but I struggle to do so in a way which doesnt exclude what I would consider to be art, its somthing Im kinda half mulling over

[upbeat basin]

From what I know, current consensus is that there are of course risks but for most people problems are minor and manageable. So yeah, seems to be that way so far. Maybe we figure out more later.

[umbral reef]

Have any of you read Benjamin‘s Art in the age of mechanical reproduction?

I’m curious if you think which parts of it applies to AI generated art, if any.

Technically, it’s a different concern, since we’re talking about mechanical PRODUCTION instead of reproduction. But it’s still an interesting critique, especially for being written in the 1920s

[west bone]

I guess it depends a lot on "thinking styles" too, (such as, I dont really care about how you achieve something, as long as the result is purely working)

[upbeat basin]

No I havnt. Could you give us a summery? Bonus points if its an AI summery 😁

[latent edge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/497227343337881640/1494384382910267453/200.gif

[umbral reef]

Haha nice try! Well, I think that, ironically, in this case, the fact that the machine is making it doesn’t strip the image of its “aura”, but actually gives it it’s “aura” back because the way AI works is so mysterious to most of us

That’s all you get though, my free trial on ChatGPT just ran out

[west bone]

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/ccLm3XwcAeY

Oh wow I cannot post links

[upbeat basin]

I see it.

[west bone]

Yeah link is there, but not embed

[upbeat basin]

Cursed video XD

[glossy marlin]

yeah, maybe, but e.g. for monotherapy, the same things would probably apply to the average 25 year old cis woman whose body produces all the estrogens found in it. a good bit of knowledge is just extrapolated from what we already know or comes from anecdotes, and so far what we know is pretty good and the anecdotes are pretty good.
safer antiandrogens are probably out there, and some hormones / proteins (including proteins that haven´t existed before) might have uses in all kinds of healthcare, including trans and intersex healthcare.

[upbeat basin]

One day it might even just be a gene therapy so your body manages the transition itself.

[west bone]

Would the body really do that though...

[glossy marlin]

that´s being researched too. sorta.
some guy used modified yeast to fix his lactose intolerance for two years, and that´s probably not the best way to do it. there might be a way to do it with a virus or such.

[glossy marlin]

yes, it would, afaik
unless it somehow doesn´t use those genes or the receptors aren´t sensitive

[upbeat basin]

As far as we know, the body builds what the genes tell it to do. So I would say its not to far fetched, yeah.

[west bone]

I might be wrong but
Arent body cells programmed to exactly FIGHT against the virus method

Such as screaming "HELP, SOMETHING is wrong here"

[umbral ocean]

Famine, Affluence, and Morality
Essay by Peter Singer - Came across this today

[umbral reef]

Link?

[solemn prairie]

Can pseudo-tensors be real? I mean either can we consider them to be real aka epistemologically real or can it even be real ontologically?

[upbeat basin]

Since we talking about future technology, we cant be fully sure how they gonna achieve it exactly.

[umbral ocean]

https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil308/Singer2.pdf

[glossy marlin]

not really. and you can build in a hundred things to control it.
what matters is the proteins outside. if the body recognizes them as potential danger, it will attack. that also applies to your eyes or neurons or whatever.
and for the effects, it´s the genes inside that matter.
you could also take some cells from the body, modify those, and get them back in.

[umbral ocean]

It basically argues that complete altruism is the only moral thing to do in this world and pretty convincingly so.

One of the most cited works in economic philosophy.

[true zinc]

Privacy is one of the most dangerous things ever, from what I've seen

[west bone]

Thank god We have BBB I guess...

[west bone]

Piracy?

[umbral reef]

Wow, I HAVE to read this. I can’t even imagine how one would make a case for that, let alone, a convincing one!

[glossy marlin]

well, it has been done in one or two ways.
there´s the guy who fixed his lactose intolerance, and there´s a whole lab genetically modifying plants to filter out more carbon dioxide.
and some viruses bypass safety mechanisms, of course

[west bone]

But I mean, I might be wrong but, arent there TONS of safety mechanisms

Ofc, sometimes they dont work

But I would say that isnt really common

[upbeat basin]

We actually can do already incrediable things with genetic engineering, yes. That's why I would say genetic approach to transitioning is just a question of time.

[glossy marlin]

it happens to be the exact opposite in my experience and much of the youthlib / trans stuff I´ve read. privacy is really good.
piracy is also really good. either it´s good for us, or it´s good for us and the companies

[upbeat basin]

Gene therapies already exist and work. Things like CRISPR allow us to make designed lifeforms. MRnA vaccines make your body produce its own vaccine. Its not too far fetched.

[upbeat basin]

Lack of privacy can also be very dangerous.

[true zinc]

No, privacy, as in, most major encrypted or semi-encrypted tools such as Signal, Telegram, whatever are very commonly used for crime, for distribution of drugs, for sex trafficking, I can kinda keep going

If you let people do whatever they want, it very quickly leads to some horrifying thigns

[umbral reef]

It’s awesome tech, but the trans community hasn’t even BEGUN to face political opposition until this starts to become a reality.

Think about it: Christian Conservatives are going to frame it as “literally using aborted fetuses (stem cells) to turn existing children trans”

[west bone]

Yeah but, how far does "If you're clear, you dont need to worry about the spy in your device" go

[true zinc]

Also, I will say that every single time I've heard "youthlib" in a sentence, it very quickly ends with the person making some very very unsavoury remarks, now I'm not saying you're one of those people, but just...yeah

[glossy marlin]

right, that is dangerous. also happens on less encrypted sites sometimes. and what leads to much of that is bigger issues, like the oppression of kids, women, whatever, suffering caused by capitalism...

[umbral reef]

I hope you all get it, but damn. The hit pieces and anti-commercials write themselves

[west bone]

Like, if we constantly monitor everyone yeah, that would sorta solve the problem but

What about freedom

At least. Sense of freedom

[upbeat basin]

I would say the more advanced the technology is that makes it faster and more unidentifiable and more accessible, the less people will actually bother. Imagine sc-fi, everyone can just upload his brain into a new body of his desire, ordered per package delivery. It would be just normal to look however you like and part-take in society in any gender role you like.

[west bone]

Until someone decides to hijack your brain somehow

[true zinc]

There already isn't any freedom. every major piece of software on your computer, or something used to compile it, or your operating system, or well, I can keep going is already backdoored. Most cities have surveillance cameras at every major street turn, don't act like we're free lol, freedom leads very quickly to debauchery

[upbeat basin]

Kinda off-topic but that would be interesting too how you could taper with your mind then XD

[true zinc]

We're only as good as we are right now due to surveillance and making sure people stay on track

[west bone]

Again, at least sense of freedom

[west bone]

Are you sure about that

[upbeat basin]

Could you define what you mean when you say freedom?

[west bone]

If so, preventing crime would be far easier...

[true zinc]

You know what, fine, at-least it makes the creeps and pedos and other horrible people think they're free to do whatever they want and then they get caught by thinking they're free

[true zinc]

It'd be far harder without technology

[glossy marlin]

well, both the ability to give and revoke consent are important, and I think romantic / sexual relationships with those kinds of age gaps do suck.
kids can get abused because of how much power adults have over them, but adults won´t use much of that power to fight abuse.
kids can´t access life saving healthcare but can be put through undesired, dangerous procedures because their guardians can override their consent.
kids are told they can always ask for help but subject to actions that teach them they can not ask for help.
a lot of problems come from those sorts of power / knowledge gaps, including between men and women, between white and black people, etc.

[west bone]

Yeah but

Thats kinda how blackmailing works too

Threating to publish your private stuff

[glossy marlin]

-# if someone needs the threat of eternal torment to be a good person, they are not a good person
-# also, we´re not all that "good"

-# and people being conservative / capitalist / nationalist / authoritarian get a lot of deserved backlash. not enough of course, and not always legal. more of it or that backlash would make us "worse"

[west bone]

Also, uh, didnt French police abuse this after 2015 paris attacks?

Something like that, i cant remember fully

[true zinc]

1. Good
2. Yes kids can be abused by anyone with a power vacuum, but at that stage. Whne do you decide that someone can consent to procedures, like at what age, what time, is it okay to say "hey you can now consent to this yourself", how much experience is enough, how old should someone be, too young and it's extremely fucking dangerous, so I think that it's not neccesarily a bad thing to have people wait until some arbitrary older age, like 18, 21, 25, whatever we have for various things. It's extremely flawed, but it's better than pushing it onto younger people who may just outright imprint on it with no understanding, a wish to belong/peer pressure/FOMO or other abuse
3. Is this referring to conversion therapy or similar? If so, I think the solution would just be to...not do either and let the person make the decision once informed and able to completely understand the effects of their actions (medically, socially, etc...)
4. Kids can always ask for help yes, but asking for help != getting help, that's how the system works, every request for help cannot always be answered, there just aren't enough resources, and even zooming to the local case, why would I want to help someone on some given day if my emotional bandwidth is low, why would I want to spend time with someone if I have no social battery. It seems almost obvious that there will be times when people will be neglected or left alone or told to figure it out. Adults have to do it all the time, kids should be able to do it on smaller scales too
5. Agreed

[umbral ocean]

There is also a very good video on YouTube which summarises it.

[mossy bramble]

we are mostly free, it's not like some dictator watches every movement of yours. The point of surveillance cameras (other than at some major event) is not to look at all your movements. Most of the footage isn't even looked upon by people, or is just ignored. They're only used when investigating a crime

[true zinc]

Yes but what I'm saying is that moving around with the assumption of free-ness when this can be changed at the tap of a button is utter absurdity, therefore I find it absolutely hilarious how many people act like they're free, get investigated, then get some nice long jail terms for doing horrid stuff

[mossy bramble]

Same with the alleged spyware on your electronics

[mossy bramble]

not really, even though they "can" be used, they "won't" be used for majority.
speaking with statistics, it is better to say that they're free rather than saying they can be spied upon anytime by dictators

[glossy granite]

Wasn't one of "you" who was shot in broad daylight while speaking at campus events was it, pretty sure you can remove the "would" because "you" have already hit that point by resorting to domestic terrorism against conservatives (or threats thereof)

[mossy bramble]

also, most of the crimes (like a lot: 90-99.99%) are not found. Especially on the internet

[true zinc]

Which is why we need more surveillance and less encryption, not less surveillance and more encyrpiton, this just lets those who commit crimes hide further and further deeper in the system

[west bone]

Ok but
The issue is

What if the system use your stuff to shame you

It doesnt mean it wont be weaponized against you if it isnt weaponized now

[mossy bramble]

not really, most of the "major" crimes are found with our current systems. It's not like every other john commits rapes or hacks into billion dollar companies.
So the idea that majority of the population stays free wins

[dire robin]

This is quite odd to hear from open source devs

[true zinc]

Except they do, also the amount of trans people who are too tech savvy for their own good and crack into platforms and cause billions of dollars of damage...

[true zinc]

Go ask James about that. not me, I've started to realize how fucking STUPID open source development is overall

Security through obscurity may not work well, but at-least it's better than allowing any joe-schmoe to write code for software that may eventually be installed in military hardware

[mossy bramble]

😭 are you fr telling me that a lot of people commit billions of dollars of damages or major crimes which go unnoticed?

[true zinc]

Yes, yes I am, even if not billions, there is software, openly sanctioned by GitHub, that would allow for attacks to take place

[mossy bramble]

also, what is with trans people being in here?

[west bone]

Yeah dude I took International space station down while shitting yesterday
(If you cant tell this is a joke)

[mossy bramble]

<@&268886789983436800> homophobia?

[glossy granite]

It happens just make sure it doesn't happen again or the government will have to come after you

[true zinc]

No that would be transphobia, at-least get it right

[mossy bramble]

thanks, but I don't really go around hating communities

[glossy granite]

Well if you're going to ping the mods at least get your terms right y'know

Google is free and all that

[true zinc]

Anyway because the mods will ask for the meaning of my statement, and will probably upsilon me after my rant, let me say there was no meaning here, I said what I said, I have seen quite a lot of Twitter posts online where I've seen people say shit like "mrrp mrrp meow :3 I hacked this platform" as if it's cute and quirky

[west bone]

Do you think they would say that if they did

[mossy bramble]

that doesn't excuse u from blaming trans people for this, there is absolutely no reason or right for you to do so .

[wild lantern]

Idk why you are taking "tweets I saw online" as something statistically significant about trans ppl

[glossy granite]

I mean freedom of speech gives her the right to say that whether it's true or not

[mossy bramble]

it's like blaming humanity just because one person murdered someone

[glossy granite]

Whoops

[west bone]

Lets 1984 this man

[true zinc]

Because I have seen it repeatedly, it may be statistically insignificant, but behaviour like this is the sort of behaviour people associate with trans people if done enough

[mossy bramble]

no freedom of speech is limited, and overrided by this server's rules

[wild lantern]

You don't have unconditional freedom of speech in all places at all time

[dire robin]

!no1stamendment

[quasi jetty]

Lookie here. This is a discord server. You do not have inalienable rights.

[glossy granite]

Yes yes within reason and rules etc etc

[true zinc]

I have met quite a lot of people who are of the belief that trans people just decide to exist to act quirky and/or to make a mess of things. I know this is not true, but this is the viewpoint I have seen on-line in certain places

[mossy bramble]

even if what you are saying is true and a lot of trans people do bad things, hypothetically,
There is no right for you to blame the trans nature itself in a person. There's no link with being trans and doing bad

[glossy marlin]

well, a lot of kids won´t respect the numbers set in place. some people have kids at 16, some of them end up being great parents, some suck. some others wait until they´re 37 and married, some of them are great parents, some of them are the most abusive dumbasses you´ll ever meet. there´s no cutoff for "life experience", almost everything that goes into it is incredibly hard to quantify / qualify, if someone wants there to be a test that test and whoever evaluates it could be, do or say almost anything.
I´ve met some thirteen year olds who need HRT to survive but can´t even really begin the process until they´re an adult in another country, I´ve heard stories about food poisoning or whatever, healthcare needs to be based on informed consent, even for kids. on the other end, some parents want their kids to get some cosmetic surgery or whatever, some people send kids to conversion therapy, kids need to be able to revoke consent to that too.
and no, kids cannot always ask for help, a lot of them get punished for it or have some past experience like that, and a lot of them never get help even if they ask, no matter what it´s about. it doesn´t matter whether the adults are exhausted or busy, even if they have all the time and energy in the world they often won´t help.
I have problems with all of that. a lot of my friends have problems with those problems. a lot of discussion about it is from people struggling with it. many people I´ve met in person (except the parents of course) have a bunch of problems like that.

[wild lantern]

You can associate all sorts of behavior with different identifiers based on things that don't actually make sense. My point is that making cybercrime a trans specific thing is at least as silly as blaming crime on race.

[mossy bramble]

yep

[west bone]

Can we just say everyone will be judged for their actions and thoughts and stuff afterlife, would that solve the issue

[true zinc]

I agree

PS: Why the hell is my brain able to almost immediately accept that blaming crime on race is a bad thing yet I genuinely paused on the first one

I hate what I am

[mossy bramble]

how would u feel if someone criticized you or someone you loved based on their body or biology

[glossy granite]

Idk sticks and stones I guess

[mossy bramble]

maybe because you wanna escape the punishment by mods

[west bone]

-# doesnt that already happen in twitter every day

[lost spruce]

God forbid somebody doesn't double down I guess

[wild lantern]

Probably an exposure thing I guess

[true zinc]

No, I've been punished by mods before if I've done something wrong, if what I have said is harmful, I have no fear of that

[lost spruce]

thats what i was thinking, you're probably used to thinking race != crime but not super used to hearing gender idenity != time

[mossy bramble]

yeah can't do much about that but you don't take it to your heart. Over here though, you can do something about it

[true zinc]

That is also what I think, because like....in isolation, I can easily follow the chain of

"trans people are people"
"people can do good or bad things"
"one person commits a cybercrime"

but then after this I immediately make the illogical leap to
"one person in this marginalized group did a bad thing? shame them all!"

[umbral ocean]

First time being a minority?

[wild lantern]

Everybody has all sorts of biases and logical errors floating around that they don't really notice. So long as you can realize they are silly and account accordingly for it it's not a huge deal imo

Well you also want to avoid actually harming ppl ofc lmao

Hopefully you catch these things before that point!

[mossy bramble]

a lot of people who talk about these things probably don't even understand what they truly mean. ask someone what trans means and they may have an opinion that doesn't line up with the biological cause. And then this leads to a lot of bad things where you accuse the group/person for things they aren't able to change (not that they should)

[wanton knot]

Hello

[mossy bramble]

difference between gender and sex for example

[true zinc]

Some of the involved can indeed be great parents and some can be horrible. I agree there is no cutoff for life experience, I've also met a bunch of younger people who need HRT to survive, in some cases for medical conditions that would literally kill them due to massive hormone imbalances if they can't get the treatment they need, but frankly even there it's so heavily gatekept.

When I was younger, yes I usually got ignored or told to figure it out myself, but like...it didn't feel....that difficult I guess? I know everyone is different but I can't really shake a lot of my biases easily

[wild lantern]

I do genuinely think foss is better in general both for security and ethical purposes fwiw

[full wren]

Bro you realise there is something called pink pilling, its the reason why its banned under a certain age

[true zinc]

That's true, stopping myself is definitely the hardest point because looking back I can see how many right wing talking points or enforcement of my own internalized transphobia and biases I was sledgehammering at everyone around me in this conversaton, yet in the moment I couldn't really notice it?

2020 hindight or however it goes I guess, but I promise I am trying to not end up spiraling like that

[mossy bramble]

allat for evading the transphobia mute

[west bone]

Well I mean, I dont think having "irrational" thoughts is bad, as brain is wired to do that

[dreamy crag]

Ryan? The person who is trans?

[west bone]

However, you cant say These everywhere

[wild lantern]

Having interacted with this user before I doubt this is a case of them intentionally trying to be hateful.

[true zinc]

Yes I do know that and I very much am unaware if this is what happened to me or that I actually realised I was trans and that being around other trans people just helped me realize what was going on inside me was just something with a name and label

[mossy bramble]

doesn't matter if you are trans, you don't disrespect it like this

[true zinc]

I very much do agree with you, for what it's worth

[dreamy crag]

I know, but what I mean is that this is not like, the same sort of transphobia that would get them banned I believe

[mossy bramble]

I'm out though, looks like you understood atleast.

[wild lantern]

Usually the bigots just double down lmao

[dreamy crag]

They Ryan clearly understood what they said was wrong, and is trying to improve

So it’s not “attempting to ban evade” or whatever

[true zinc]

I hate that I only realize the extent of what I've said or done after I completely burn myself out

[heavy pagoda]

what

[dreamy crag]

Happens to the best of us

[true zinc]

or someone actually confronts me hard enough to break me out of whatever the fuck I was going on about, like here

[heavy pagoda]

literally never heard this before in my life

isnt this what liz truss was talking about

[wild lantern]

You have never seen ppl make bullshit connections of this sort based on bad reasoning?

[heavy pagoda]

transgender mafia or something like that

[true zinc]

Was this to me or S^3?

[wild lantern]

To s^3

[heavy pagoda]

no i mean of the trans stereotypes floating around ive never heard of the cybercrime thing

[wild lantern]

Some online trans ppl are pretty tech savvy

[heavy pagoda]

oh yeah sure i guess i can see it now

[wild lantern]

The idea/claim probably comes from listening to a lot of those folks

[heavy pagoda]

like fitgirl and maia arson crimew and those people

[ripe jolt]

you got adhd?

[true zinc]

Quite bad, yes

[west bone]

Well i mean, that kinda worked back in caveman times I guess

[true zinc]

I'll provide a touch of my own input to whatever the hell I was going on about, or rather, try to, as going back through that fully is going to be pretty hard. I grew up being told that trans people are weird or bad, most of the time, that or being told of the spooky scary transgender mafia out to trans all the kids, and whatnot, and I guess I haven't really gotten all of that out of my system, and it's very easy for me to start ranting about this stuff at the smallest headline because while I know nobody is perfect, it is far too easy for me to fall down the pit of "oh gods everyone is evil"

[wild lantern]

It probably works for a lot of ppl now

[dreamy crag]

No, that’s still how a lot of bigotry works

[wild lantern]

Some ppl have super silly beliefs

[west bone]

Such as "If a bush has moved, run, it might be a TIGER"

[wild lantern]

Cargo cults are not super ancient

as an example

[dreamy crag]

See: Fox News making people believe all (Latino) immigrants are criminals brining drugs

[west bone]

Brain loves grouping and generalising so

[wild lantern]

I am latino but I am not cool enough to be trusted to traffic drugs 🚬

Tbf I am also not an immigrant

[true zinc]

[west bone]

US politics is different tho

[glossy granite]

Yeah no one asked me to bring drugs when I went to the US on my student visa smh

[west bone]

It isnt only streotyping, it is literally tribalism

[glossy granite]

Then again I guess I'll have to wait until I change my status for the first request to come in maybe

[wild lantern]

It's very stupid yah

[glossy granite]

5 billion fentanyls

[wild lantern]

Excuse me mr cartel may I have 5 drugs to traffic?

[true zinc]

Why is internalized transphobia so evil, hooooly shit

[true zinc]

I would like five (5) drugs to traffic please

[dreamy crag]

Femtanyl > fentanyl tbh, can we get people to traffic that into the us?

[lost spruce]

FITGIRL IS TRANS?

[heavy pagoda]

i heard so?

[glossy marlin]

over 90% of cis women have autogynephilia, less than 30% of trans women have it, most trans women I´ve met do not find themselves attractive for years and do not believe they could be much more attractive as trans women before transition
literally AGP / ROGD BS

[lost spruce]

Woah :o

[heavy pagoda]

there was a study on this?

[glossy marlin]

yes. maybe even multiple

[ancient lance]

what has this chat come to now , last I checked transphobia?

[lost spruce]

I should play stalker anomaly, speaking of fitgirl

[heavy pagoda]

what was their definition of AGP

imo like as blanchard presented im not sure its a very well defined concept

[glossy marlin]

I think I heard it somewhere in suris´ video about miia tzu or such, iirc the requirements in the study are pretty small and vague, something like "sexual arousal from the thought of oneself as a woman"

[fallow arrow]

not very well operationalized defn imo

[glossy marlin]

nvm there´s a video with it in the title, and apparently it´s 93 in cis women compared to 73 in trans women, and that´s in older trans women, numbers went down. the term isn´t applied to cis women otherwise, there´s no panic about that, not even about the 28% where it´s frequent, which has also gone down, and is probably significantly lower in trans women too, especially nowadays.
oh, and a lot of the work defending it is by ray blanchard (and associates), who coined the term.

and yes, it´s "has ever experienced arousal from the thought of oneself as a woman"

and pink pilling? I don´t see that much. in fact, I almost exclusively see the opposite. trans women who think they´ll be less attractive, whether in terms of looks or generally. and not all of that comes from the horrible ways trans women are usually portrayed.

[fallow arrow]

is pink pilling the female equivalent of blue pilling?

[true zinc]

Just because it isn't common doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and I agree, I've definitely seen quite a bit more of the opposite too, but I guess it's a little nag that can be put into the backs of people's minds of whether they only decided to be trans to be attractive or being pushed into it via FOMO or peer pressure or whatnot

[glossy marlin]

well, according to google, one of the meanings, probably the most appropriate one given the topic and what else was said, is that (some people think that) some men transition because they think they could be more attractive as trans women.
-# I guess that might be a reason to transition. but not a particularly common one, and not one this world somehow supports afaik

[mossy bramble]

givemeyourIPandbank.com

[fallow arrow]

interesting

[glossy marlin]

yeah, sometimes self-doubt manifests like that.

[fallow arrow]

i'm not sure how much the reasoning for transitioning should matter as long as it makes a person more secure in their identity and isn't causing any harm

[upbeat basin]

Since of the stigma, who would admit to that in a survey though? Its like when you make a census to see how many pedophiles you have in your population. Gonna be garbage data.

[glossy marlin]

well, that´s true, but I haven´t seen much of it in any communities either, so the rate is likely very low

[upbeat basin]

Because for some people that matters to decide if they would accept people choosing that path.

[glossy marlin]

fun fact: regret rates of harry potter tattoos are about thirty times higher than those of gender affirming care
-# also about 99% of regret for gender affirming care has external reasons and most of those people go on to retransition, and regret is rarely an accurate term

[upbeat basin]

Wild speculation but I speculate that these both two groups overlap heavily XD /j

[west bone]

Would I be too crazy if I said that I kinda view getting tattoos as betraying the macrophages

But it is sorta cool if the pattern is nice I guess

[upbeat basin]

macrophages?

[west bone]

Basically

• Ink gets into your skin
• Macrophages respond to the tissue because well, it isnt good when a needle penetrates skin
• Than they try to terminate the ink so they can protect you which makes them sit in your tissue
  So your tattoo stays

[umbral ocean]

Well, it's an ongoing research. I don't think we can make black and white statements on tattoos and macrophages just yet.

[west bone]

I mean, ofc, the effect to immunity system doesnt decrease your immunity system but

Am I too crazy perhaps

[upbeat basin]

Not straight jacket crazy, no.

[umbral ocean]

I mean it's a foreign object in your body

A lot of people do have allergic inflammation to tattoos but long term immune system compromises are yet to be explored.

[west bone]

I'm kinda like "immunity system tries to protect me, and i'm kinda betraying them" you know

[umbral ocean]

That's philosophical lol

[west bone]

But on the other hand they dont even know they are alive so

[upbeat basin]

What makes it betrayal?

[umbral ocean]

I want to create a framework derived from philosophy and game theory to optimize human growth and collaboration in a team.

[west bone]

The tattoo stays because your immunity system is trying to protect you

[upbeat basin]

When can we expect to see results?

[umbral ocean]

I don't know. The bigger challenge is starting a company that follows these principles .

[west bone]

Think of it like a shepherd dog trying to protect you, but it is actually a trick so you can be cool I guess

[umbral ocean]

But don't ask me to predict the TV when all I have is Cathode rays lmo

[upbeat basin]

Is eating a burger betrayal on your body too? Since you clearly could have eaten healthier?

[west bone]

Hmmmm

Maybe

[upbeat basin]

Unorthodox company structures do exist though so not impossible. Good luck!

[upbeat basin]

In extension, wouldnt things like advertising such unhealthy foods be betrayal on your fellow people too?

[umbral ocean]

Not really unorthodox. The structure would be hierarchical or hub and spoke like most companies. Just what you measure and optimize for.

Existing Area
Existing Work
Organizational Network Analysis
Rob Cross
Antifragility
Taleb
Psychological motivation
Deci & Ryan, Frankl
Game theoretic cooperation
Axelrod
Systems thinking
Meadows, Senge
Incentive design
Mechanism design / behavioral economics
Organizational resilience
Management science literature

[outer steeple]

the chatbot shat out its prompt

[umbral ocean]

This is what happens class when you think you know the entire information from just what is presented to you. You look like an idiot.

This is just the literature review table.

[long lark]

it doesn't really matter what you optimize for, because for any payoff function, there could always be things like Prisoner's dilemma and other issues in your game

so game theory cannot ever be a universal solution, you always need to supplant it with real world leadership and morals/ethics

to make things worse, the more complex your payoff function, the more it leads to improvements on the system sure, but you could be over-engineering into something unworkable in the real world because it becomes impossible to create external incentives to match the game in question, on top of the fact that players are not always rational and have their own idea of what they gain from working

and even if your system works in theory, someone can always come along and knock it all apart with enough power, or if the company/org can't perform and the workforce dwindles.

ultimately I think for these reasons, while game theory is extremely important to understanding economics and shaping incentives, it should be understood that it only plays more of a role in modeling and describing systems rather than something we engineer and try to force into it. solutions are probably ultimately social, not mathematical/economic

[drifting mason]

game theory is bullshit because humans aren't always rational

[dreamy crag]

yes, it is an aproximation, not actual reality

[drifting mason]

Iran a perfect example

[dreamy crag]

in the same way the we still use aproximations for anything else

[magic python]

Local person discovers the term "model," tune in soon to see them notice physics!

[dreamy crag]

also there are branches of game theory that (at least in part) acount for irationality

[drifting mason]

thank you, spherical cow

[dreamy crag]

there is cgt on one end and bgt on the other and a ton in the middle

[drifting mason]

I think those just become broken models

[dreamy crag]

they work and have activly helped people in the real world, so i dont think they are broken

[drifting mason]

you can't model unknown unknowns

[magic python]

Beconomical game theory :3

[dreamy crag]

you can get quite close

[drifting mason]

can you cite an example

[dreamy crag]

to redesign the U.S. kidney paired donation system. i dont have a citation right now, but i can find one if you want!

[magic python]

fuck I kinda want to see if I can get another transphobe using the ultimate tactic of talking about the genocide but that feels baity even if I just kinda want to talk about the genocide....

[dreamy crag]

something something ron desaintis

[drifting mason]

seeing a summary that refers to this using algorithmic strength in basic knowledge domains, not an adversarial presumption that people involved in the donor system are irrational actors

[magic python]

Am i missing more info on the genocide???

[drifting mason]

Car's opening remark identifying it as a troll appears confirmed

[dreamy crag]

wdym?

[magic python]

"It" is kinda crazy but pop off king

[drifting mason]

inflammatory statements directed at individuals so they can pretend they are "transphobe" and report them

[dreamy crag]

ill look for an example that better fits your requirment if needed i do not study game theory outside of cgt, so i only know of some cases

[drifting mason]

shitty human beings are not a trans allies

[magic python]

First of all, no statements like that have been made, second of all, we don't like people who deny genocides.

[dreamy crag]

but rest assured that game theory is one of the most practical fields and things like irrational actors can be (at least in part acounted for)

[dreamy crag]

quote from him at the rnc or smtn that said "trangenderism must be eradicated, the whole disgusting idioligy"

[magic python]

Yay he uses slurs

Shit that image doesn't work when someone refers to someone else using it... uh...

[dreamy crag]

no hes also used like other more major slurs btw, pretty sure there is a video of him saying the f slur, but that may have been one of his cronies

[magic python]

Oh god.

[dreamy crag]

@drifting mason id recomened you atleast learn what behavioral game theory is :3 it seems to be a blind spot of yours

[dreamy crag]

yeah it wasnt him, it was someone who worked for him, my mistake

[magic python]

Ah

[dreamy crag]

still a horible person who desirves no sympathy

also car, ive started to do this thing where whenever i feel the want to sully react someone, i just block them. its making mathcord way more managable

[magic python]

Honestly if I blocked people that'd be awesome to do

[dreamy crag]

u dont block people? impresive

[magic python]

though how long until I get blocked under that ideology

[magic python]

I have 2 blocked and neither of them do I remember

[dreamy crag]

you? provbably never

[dreamy crag]

wow...

[magic python]

I'm very sully reactable tbh

[flat harbor]

being self aware is the first step

[dreamy crag]

no? the worst/most anoying thing you have ever done is being slightly uninformed on something imo

maybe i just havent been around, i only joined mathcord about a week ago

[magic python]

Fair

[long lark]

traffic systems are predictable when they are designed with Nash equilibrium, which is even more likely now that most people navigate with GPS systems, encouraging convergent behavior

and the number of players is such that a few people defecting does nothing to destabilize the system

[drifting mason]

yes but those also include sensors which have lossy fallibilities

[long lark]

also competitive games only need to avoid Nash equilibrium in theory to be "balanced" (technically), because even if players perceive one strategy to be dominant, it isn't actually true

[long lark]

doesn't affect the system stability

traffic design is well established and highly highly predictable

[drifting mason]

if you've ever been on the artery while a side collector triggers a red light for you, just so they can turn right, you know what I mean

[long lark]

it is one of the most successful and powerful uses of game theory

[drifting mason]

I fail to see the "we modeled unknowable things about poor personal choices and the system works better as a result" in this example

in fact, quite often, if you run a red light, you will trigger it to turn green

[long lark]

i thought you were asking in general for practical uses of game theory, which there are countless examples of

individuals making poor choices often dont affect a system consisting of many players, those are outliers and the stability of the system is too strong, this is one of the basic hallmarks of the game theory model, that players are generally assumed to optimize their payoff

if the winning choice of a game is strategy A, and 99% of players pick A, it doesn't matter if 1% of players pick B, idiotically, the players who pick A still win and therefore will continue to pick A

[dreamy crag]

i belive that was their orgional ask, but i think they changed it at some point. or maybe im also just confused by what they are saying

[long lark]

at this point I don't know if they are serious or just throwing vibes simply because they don't like game theory out of principle

[dreamy crag]

its probably the second

game theory is very useful (i say, using the only subfield that has little to no practicle aplications)

[long lark]

oh, its you

i only read the beginning of the name you keep changing and didnt see the "cgt queen" part

[dreamy crag]

yes...?

[dreamy crag]

oh lol, yeah, we are using our name to indicate whos fronting now, like what tcc does

[wheat moon]

i need help

[dreamy crag]

!help

[quasi jetty]

To ask for mathematics help on this server, please open your own help channel or help thread. See #❓how-to-get-help for instructions.

[azure hill]

Hello everyone! I've discovered a new numerical sequence based on structural spacing patterns between initial gaps, where they settle into even numbers. You can view it using this link
https://github.com/hassanmuayad6666-web/prime-gap-zigzag-symmetry

[dreamy crag]

yes... all primes above 2 are odd, so p_x-p_y=0 mod 2

also, this is not for math discusion? so in future, use #math-discussion for math discussion

[long lark]

also AI generated and poorly written

[dreamy crag]

oh true yeah

[cyan violet]

Sacred geometry is the highest level of mathematical excellence possible.

[dreamy crag]

no, this is wrong actualy

[mossy bramble]

how

[dreamy crag]

if you are talking about real sacred geometry, like the stuff found at the great hopewell road, then that is just trig basicaly

[mossy bramble]

What is great hopewell road

[dreamy crag]

because it is not that complex compaired to modern day mathmatics

[mossy bramble]

oh you're referring to something religious

[dreamy crag]

dont get me wrong, what they did is impresive beyond belife, but it is not much more signifigant than most other forms of mathmatics at the time

[dreamy crag]

kinda? i mean, most ancient structures were to some regard

and the great hopewell road is just part of a complex that had some religious elements, the fact that it has sacred geometry is not because of its religiosity

[gentle birch]

hi

[dreamy crag]

hello!

[gentle birch]

whats good

[dreamy crag]

having fun doing some math, was talking about ancient arcetecture for about 2 minutes before everyone stoped talking, the works

[round sky]

Mathematics is heavily contaminated by the bourgeois ideology

[dreamy crag]

what is the bourgeois ideology?

also, depending of your defenition of sacred arciteture, renesance europe may have had the most, with using their ability to use geometery and trig as part of why they said they were "inlightened" and "supirior" which motivated a lot of conquest

[magic python]

One can just like look up news and get articles on it, right?

[round sky]

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/mathematical-manuscripts/ch15.html

[dreamy crag]

the reason there are such detialed building plans for nearly everything, with mathmatical precision that is unesesary for actual architecture was mainly to show their ability to do geometry. in other words, even people of the renesaince used notation spam :3

[magic python]

Wait, obviously.

[dreamy crag]

‘a childishness which has its origin in the first mystical and mystifying method of calculus’
im sorry marx :< but this is how math works

[charred adder]

would this not be because the bourgeoisie were the only ones with the means to spend their days mathematizing

[magic python]

I can just look up news and papers and stuff easily...

[dreamy crag]

while some of the (very few) points made here hold some water, the majority of this is marx not understanding how mathmatical foundations are formed and used, along with a misenterpitation of basic calculos

in other words, the philosipher was not a mathamatition, who knew

yeah it says right here that he is just wrong about this :< i think you should read things and understand what they say before you post with such gusto

[round sky]

i'm not serious

[dreamy crag]

this is just a man who does not understand limits, which is fair, especialy for at the time

[dreamy crag]

oh.

[charred adder]

did limits not exist during his time?

[dreamy crag]

was a relitivly new concept, most likely just starting to be taught to people who werent in high level mathmatics

[dreamy crag]

this is in fact a very common issue that new math studients have with limits, where they attempt to compute the limit outright, see the answer doesnt work, then assume something is broken or a leap of logic is made

now that we have graphing calculators, this is less likely to happen, as you can physicaly see that there is only one posible value for the limit to make the function continious

[dreamy crag]

i actualy do not disagree with you a lot on this, although it is less of an issue today. a large amount of mathmatics was discovered by people who are in the global south, and their achivments have been forgoten by time, even if they found out things first

the first recorded instance of the pythagorian theorem appears in ancient mesopotamian on clay tablets from around 1800 bce iirc, so calling it "the pythagorian theorem" is a bit of a misnomer

[charred adder]

idk if pythagoras would be an example of the bourgeoisie

[dreamy crag]

the reason why his name is kept in the history books is for a few reasons, but one is because of the idolization of the greeks and romans, who were the arguable start of many western ideas and policies

proto-bourgoie so to speak

[charred adder]

id consider it more humanist or aristocratic

[worn quiver]

I have very little background in mathematics, can someone explain Homotopy Type Theory and it's applications in the real world in a very simple language?

[dreamy crag]

thats a fair asumption, but the point more that im making is that many ancient mathmatical findings from the global south are ignored in favor of future greek and roman findings, even if they were found hundreds of years earlier

[round sky]

btw Marx had a series of notebooks on the foundations of calculus in the 1880s and was translated into chinese in 1975 then contributed Chinese mathematicians working in the field of nonstandard analysis

[dreamy crag]

oh, interesting, i guess he learned from this

[round sky]

it's his series of notebooks. He made them.

[charred adder]

though i believe the argument of mathematics being contaminated by the bourgeoisie isn't that its eurocentric, but that its heavily abstract and not applicable to the working class

[dreamy crag]

i know... im just saying that this first thing was wrong/misguided, so he must have learned from it

[dreamy crag]

that can also be seen, but "heavily abstract" and "not applicable to the working class" would not make it bourgeoi imo, as that would make nearly all stem fields and most forms of contemporary art bourgeoi

[charred adder]

are they not bourgeoi?

[dreamy crag]

i would say no, not inherently

[charred adder]

or at least to marx's pro-capitalist standards

not the art itself, but the insane prices and appeal to the wealthy class

[dreamy crag]

like most stem majors are not upper class

[dreamy crag]

that is a problem with art speculation and the art market rather than the art itself

think of rothco

[dreamy crag]

his art was both of these, yet i feel it is the antithisis to bourgeoi

altho, take my opinions with a grain of salt, i have not read a lot of marxist theory

[charred adder]

me too, im going off of ap euro lol

[dreamy crag]

oh nice

[charred adder]

hmm

i think marx's critique on math had more to do with the economics of the time

as economists were typically pro-capitalist and used math to reduce human workers into $$$

[dreamy crag]

mhm

[charred adder]

ah i see the mistake

[tame whale]

I can’t sleep, like am tired but I don’t want to, it feels like I I forgot to do something or have debt.
My heart is somehow racing
Or maybe it’s myself, maybe I wronged myself and forgot to give it something, or release something.

[next schooner]

wat

are you a stalinist

wait

no i fact checked myself and i got it backwards, Stalin specifically said that mathematics did not have a class character

[magic python]

Does anybody know any extra resources about the trans genocide in the US or do I need to sift through news sites on my own to find one from a credible source

[next schooner]

depends on the info you're looking for

[magic python]

Just like proof it counts as a genocide because multiple people deny it is and i like being able to have sources to back up my claims, and to then have the ability to modping if they keep saying it isnt actually a genocide for genocide denial

Evidence of the attempted erasure and classing us as threats basically

[next schooner]

Errr

[magic python]

Probably something I'll have to find more of myself?

[next schooner]

I mean, this is quite a complex topic and whether the current circumstances under which trans people live consitutes a genocide in the legal sense is very much not settled

[magic python]

Oh is the term genocide not just forced erasure of an identity or culture? I seem to have forgotten it's nuance...

[next schooner]

The term genocide has different meanings in different contexts

[magic python]

Ah.

[next schooner]

Calling something a genocide is both extremely loaded (obviously) and may be on quite shaky ground in terms of legal definitions if that's what you care about. Perhaps you do not care about the legal definitions, in which case that's fine. But somebody saying that the term "trans genocide" is not correct or does not apply are not automatically genocide deniers

[magic python]

So to more accurately display my point, I should say the US is attempting to erase trans people, rather than commit a genocide

[next schooner]

If you are compelled by the arguments that there is a genocide occuring, then you can say that of course

Just be aware that the term genocide is pretty fraught

[magic python]

Fair enough

[next schooner]

It does not mean that a genocide is not occurring

A good example is that of Gaza; people were saying that there was a genocide occuring for quite some time before IAGS actually issued a resolution on the matter

[magic python]

It's just it isn't quite genocide denial to not agree it's a genocide?

[next schooner]

Whether or not something "is" a genocide is, generally, a matter of consensus amongst international genocide and human rights organisations

[magic python]

Oh well then I kinda feel bad for accusing someone for genocide denial for saying it isnt a genocide and then saying stuff implying stuff like residential schools weren't a genocide, as I don't know how residential schools sit in that regard....

[next schooner]

From the perspective of moderation, which is the specific reason I am chiming in - there is not yet a readily defensible basis on which we would be able to say "this is genocide denial"

[magic python]

All I know is that they were forcefully erasing the culture

[magic python]

Mhm... fair enough.

[next schooner]

So there are a few specific things which identify the residential school system as genocidal

Though even in this case, there is still nuance from a legal perspective, with some arguing that it did not constitute genocide in the strict sense, but rather a broader notion of "cultural genocide"

[magic python]

That makes me feel a bit better at least

[next schooner]

One of the main points for residential schools which strengthened the argument that it constituted a genocide is Article II of the UN Genocide Convention, which reads:

In the present Convention,** genocide means any of the following acts** committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

[magic python]

Isn't b also like a massive thing there too?

[next schooner]

Indeed

But (e) is the most immediately and obviously applicable

[magic python]

True, that was quite literally their intended purpose

[next schooner]

Now one thing you may notice about this article of the convention is that it applies only to "national, ethnical, racial or religious" groups

[magic python]

Yeah, I forgot the UN defined it like that, which does mean no matter what they do to queer people, it wouldn't count as a genocide there...

[next schooner]

There is a legal sense in which this article simply cannot be applied to trans people, since they are not one of the types of groups listed. Now, does that mean that morally it's not a genocide? Obviously not. The law does not reflect morality. However, it is also one of the most important frameworks through which activism and meaningful change can actually occur. So yeah, it's a tricky one, since many people will adhere very strictly to these legal definitions of genocide. I tend in that direction myself. However, that doesn't say anything about what I think about the treatment of trans people, it simply says that I do not see a sense in which the definition coherently holds

In any event - do be aware that the term is highly contestable

Like I said, you can certainly say that you think it constitutes a genocide; however, be prepared to justify why you think the term "genocide" specifically applies, because people can and will (and arguably should) press you on that

[magic python]

That makes sense, I'll keep in mind that legally it can't be a genocide, no matter how atrocious it is or how much they erase, as it obviously isnt a religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality. In the future I'll definitely call it an erasure, as then any denial is obviously denying the acts rather than the terminology.

Thanks for informing me on the nuances, have a good day

[round sky]

it’s a badmathematics statement

[round sky]

The concept of the limit value may therefore be interpreted wrongly, and is constantly interpreted wrongly (missdeutet). It is applied in differential equations93 as a means of preparing the way for setting x1 - x or h = 0 and of bringing the latter closer to its presentation: - a childishness which has its origin in the first mystical and mystifying methods of calculus.

the statement was drawn from Marx’s blasphemous statements.

[upbeat basin]

Reminds me of when people show you 0=1 therefore math is propaganda XD

[fallow cave]

https://ir.law.utk.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1255&context=rgsj

this is one of 3 sources I can of the top of my head…

Resume: it concludes that the wave of laws that target transgenders - especially restrictions to healthcare, education and legal recognition- may support claims of state-supported harm against a protected group.

The legality, as bratgirl said, does not constitute a genocide. But in my opinion it can fit the definition of: crimes against humanity

Anyways good night

…

It also says: even though it may not be a genocide in the sense of legality, it follows the trail of genocidal conduct (the way a genocide is being done, and following the efforts of a genocide). This is what I base my opinion of «crimes against humanity» on

[tidal shoal]

im so sorry man, do you wanna talk about it more?

can you not access the exam from your prof and see what you got wrong?

i would totally hit your prof up during office hours or shoot an email to get more info

[jovial mist]

you could ask your prof for the exam

for a few days

[tidal shoal]

ima be honest im in pre calc rn so i wouldnt know how to mathematically help you but the least i can do is provide support

[jovial mist]

why?

[glossy granite]

Well it's the best way to learn

[tidal shoal]

my parents always told me the most hungry student asks the most questions and asks so many that theyre “annoying” to the teacher

[jovial mist]

your parents are wrong

[tidal shoal]

i wasnt saying they were right but my parents and me are a whole other debaccle

me personally, i always try to ask questions and my teachers always answer in a positive way because they want me to learn ykwim

i feel like teachers really just want the best for us

[jovial mist]

i ask teachers my doubts but they think im trying to be cool or if sometimes the doubt occurs "low level-ish" to them, they punish us

so asking doubts is really a gamble in my country!

[tidal shoal]

i feel like this is a valid circumstance to email and really know all the info

[jovial mist]

well.. do you remember some problems on the exam where you could've went wrong?

[tidal shoal]

idk how uni works but were there previous quizzes and stuff where you got the same problem wrong a lot? even during hw practice and review? maybe then you can have some idea of what went wrong

[jovial mist]

you spent 2 hours on 1 question in the exam?

oh how long was the test

so approx 2 hours and 30 min

you should've left the question which was bugging you

and attempted it at the last

oh

[tidal shoal]

im really sorry man

[jovial mist]

well im far from qualified to help and i won't promise you its gona get better but one fail does not mean your life is over. just prepare harder next time and i bet you're gonna top the exam

and don't spend a lot of time on questions you aren't able to solve even if the next requires the answer from those. just solve others first

[tidal shoal]

yeah, this whole test doesnt determine who you are in the end. its one mishap and you can always bounce back your junior and senior year

probably with a lot of practice, or maybe theres no actual way and theyre just winging it lol

[jovial mist]

one bad score doesn't determine your fate tbh

[tidal shoal]

all those smart guys have like crack injected in their brains idek HOW they do it

[tidal shoal]

THIS!!! dont let it eat away at you man

[glossy granite]

If a question requires some numerical answer just write down at the start that you're going to assume the answer is some number and continue doing the steps so you can at least get partial credit for knowing how to solve the question even if you didn't get it with the right answer

[jovial mist]

oh

[glossy granite]

Not saying that works every time but it's worth a try rather than leaving it blank and definitely getting 0 marks

[past owl]

Mannn your're scaring me. I feel like I might end up like you during my exams

I know I shouldn't have procrastinated but I couldn't help myself now I'm panicking

[jovial mist]

bro just study and keep your phone away for 2 days

[past owl]

I will do so but do you think I can really make sense of the series and the sequences in 2 days?? I also have to revise the previous chapters.....

Maaan I'm having a panic attack :((

[jovial mist]

bro you can do it in 2 days

[tidal shoal]

just study and try your hardest, do mock exams and use all your resources

[jovial mist]

just practice when you get the time and dont look at the time when you get into the flow, you'll not even realise 5 hours have passed

[tidal shoal]

use brain.fm

ok honestly, the best thing that you can do now is get the information from your prof. the exam is over and whats done is done, you can either wallow and blame yourself or move on and learn from your mistakes

[past owl]

I'll do my best but I'm also fighting with intrusive ideas which I can't get rid off :((

[tidal shoal]

this might sound harsh but sometimes you just gotta keep on trucking, its life, and this exam isnt going to be in bold over your head for everyone to see. dont let it define you and learn from what you did right and wrong. thats the wisest thing anyone can do. learn

[jovial mist]

wat do you mean

[past owl]

I feel like its easier to sleep and not wake up for good 😭

[jovial mist]

alright bro, the exam and the coursework is done now you don't have to do those again. just forget about those and look forward. im telling you if you keep thinking about those, you'll ruin your whole semester thinking. just forget about it, what happened, HAPPENED. now look for solutions to make sure it doesnt happen again, that's my advice

[tidal shoal]

you can just ask for them to explain it in a different way, i feel like this is in your head. i honestly feel like professors are totally open to teaching you because they want you to learn and do your best

hold your head high and learn from what you did

[jovial mist]

bro stop thinking allat just study, dont waste your time

[tidal shoal]

is that bad? hes recoginizing your hard work

[jovial mist]

did you ask him to show where you went wrong?

[tidal shoal]

sometimes the practice goes great but the test kills you

[jovial mist]

you left it.. empty?

oh

you still should tell him what happened/ask him what to do now

lemme tell you something, others dont care, you'll tell them once and then they'll forget after a few minutes cause they got problems of their own. don't think it'll change his perception of you

this has helped me "not care" about others' opinion unless it's a good opinion

why

well all i can say is focus on the future, the past is gone

[polar gale]

i know you respect mathematics, but can u come help in #1508337223089524747

[jovial mist]

right now's not a good time...

[tidal shoal]

do you feel any better having talked about it a little bit?

oh

no prob, i think this other guy has been more help than me tho lol

[jovial mist]

nah i've been too rough i think

but it's just my way of explaining

rough or not rough, i need to convey the message

just stop caring about the nature of university. be your own hope/nature

me too

damn

[tidal shoal]

i gotta go but goodluck with your results and goodluck with uni overall

[jovial mist]

cya

again, i advise you to stop thinking about it and focus on what you have to do NOW

whatever it is

focus on the present not the past

why

it's simple, what's done is done. now focus on what is TO be done

ok

[past owl]

So I also i have a physics exam 2 days and I stll need to go through 2 more chapters. Oscillations and relativity. Is it doable?

[past owl]

I'm starting now 😭

[brave coral]

please be serious

this is very very serious and not the time for jokes

[past owl]

Thanks for straightening me out. It’s just that I’m so depressed at this point that all I can do is laugh about it. I'm locking in right now

[brave coral]

oh ok im glas u straightened out cuz my english is not straight

[light otter]

if anyone has a good video on how to solve 3d trigonometry, please send it. im gonna go to sleep now but waking up early to study

couldn't find a good one

[leaden torrent]

First

[modest rune]

first

[vagrant kestrel]

[sleek wing]

fifth

[errant rock]

if discussion 1 is so good why isn't there a discussion 2

[hybrid zephyr]

6th ish

[leaden torrent]

@velvet dagger btfo

anyway name pending

[hybrid zephyr]

7th

[vagrant kestrel]

now delete #math-discussion

[sleek wing]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/272146053933957120/424686617589055501/414564949927395369.gif

[modest rune]

this channel is dedicated to pride month

[velvet dagger]

@leaden torrent try again

[leaden torrent]

anyway

[modest rune]

dami delete namingtons message

[leaden torrent]

what should the names be

[hidden reef]

Last

[leaden torrent]

since #serious-discussion is kinda lame

[hidden reef]

damn it

[velvet dagger]

@modest rune read the description :)

[sleek wing]

#groups-rings-fields-2

[surreal sapphire]

name it discussion-3 so people wonder where discussion-2 is

[grim pumice]

phil-discussion

[modest rune]

We should name every channel after a memorable but gone user

[hybrid zephyr]

have it be named #discussion, no difference in names

[vagrant kestrel]

lobby and atrium

[hidden reef]

name it.... discussion-3

[modest rune]

This can be the "Discussion Channel In Memorium of Jan"

[hidden reef]

oh you already said that

[velvet dagger]

I hard support Loch's idea

[leaden torrent]

"gone"

[modest rune]

wait

who else has left

im sure there are more people i like who left

dami help

[leaden torrent]

yo wtf

[velvet dagger]

Or we can call this channel "The Barn"

[leaden torrent]

you cant put uppercase greek letters

in channel names

[vagrant kestrel]

thank god

[leaden torrent]

im surprised they check for that

[errant rock]

embi channel when

[modest rune]

wait

i got it

we should name them #discussion, #conversation, and #socializing

[hybrid zephyr]

jan deleted all their messages then deleted their account, dunno if they want a channel named after themselves

[modest rune]

with no clarification

on what that means

[leaden torrent]

anyway seriously speaking

[hidden reef]

but wait why have 2

[leaden torrent]

they should be clearly related

and just alts of each other

[vagrant kestrel]

coffee shop and tea room

[modest rune]

fine

name it J*n

[errant kiln]

I just want to inscribe my name into this channel with this message.

[leaden torrent]

otherwise people will wonder why theyre different

[bleak stream]

is kumon good?

[modest rune]

whats wrong w discussion-2

[leaden torrent]

its just vanilla

yknow

[modest rune]

lmao

[leaden torrent]

i want more spice in my life

[hidden reef]

discussion-B

and discussion-A

[limpid steppe]

Their teaching style is out dated.

[vagrant kestrel]

mods kinda basic rn

[leaden torrent]

#codiscussion

[sleek wing]

THIS

[modest rune]

doesn't generalize

[vagrant kestrel]

cod discussion

[bleak stream]

oh k so should I join rsm or something

idk tho

cause I am pretty far into kumon

[modest rune]

$(\infty,1)-discussion$

[hybrid zephyr]

the third be cocodiscussion

[fathom swallow]

weakly equivalent to max

[surreal sapphire]

name both discussion but with an emoji

[sleek wing]

banach_alg_hermitian_involution discusison

[hidden reef]

discussions

[limpid steppe]

Yes, RSM has a much better approach to teaching. I can tell you first hand.

[velvet dagger]

Call one discussion Facebook and the other Twitter